Noisebridge Attempts to Teach Science To Juggalos

Working on the assumption that the Insane Clown Posse's song Miracles was indeed a tribute to the wonder of nature and not the cleverest troll ever, some folks from the hackerspace Noisebridge decided to try and educate ICP fans. Surprisingly, most of the fans seemed to enjoy the science lesson, but representatives of the band didn't seem to think it was funny.

Comments

More Juggalo research is needed

[elrous0]

Someone should map out their career, using normal distribution. Here's a hint: = 1998.

Re:More Juggalo research is needed

[elrous0]

Well, I just learned that /. apparently can't display the symbol for mean (Mu).

Re:More Juggalo research is needed

[dyingtolive]

I can't see the use for trying to educate them; for one, it's a waste of effort, for another, who will we get to work 3rd shift at Jack in the Box?
Besides, they're just SO softcore. I mean, real sonsofbitches listen to Whitney Houston. The worst thing is trying to figure out which album I like more...

Re:More Juggalo research is needed

[RightSaidFred99]

Bah. More important than Jack in the Box, stupid people are here to amuse me. Leave them be, I say.

Re:More Juggalo research is needed

[Zaphod The 42nd]

fuck statistics, how does that work?
nice burn.

Re:More Juggalo research is needed

[spintriae]

I can't see the use for trying to educate them; for one, it's a waste of effort...

Especially considering one of the lyrics to the song is "I don't wanna talk to no scientist; ya'll motherfuckers lying and getting me pissed." They know there are educated explanations for rainbows and making babies--they may even know what they are--but it's just anti-religious elitism worth ignoring. Let them have their magical magnets. Any fans that take it that seriously probably weren't going to go on to be the next Gauss anyway.

Re:More Juggalo research is needed

[Denihil]

anti-science elitism, you mean, right?

Re:More Juggalo research is needed

[spintriae]

No, I was referring to science itself, from the band's point of view. Don't forget that they're marketing their own religion.

Re:More Juggalo research is needed

[Nerdfest]

Oh well, the world needs test subjects too.

Re:More Juggalo research is needed

[certron]

Funny enough, the 'random' quote at the bottom of this page of comments is this:

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy. -- Wm. Shakespeare, "Hamlet"

That is not to say that there is no wonder in the world, and that there are some things still unexplained, but to ignore an explanation when one exists is anti-science and tends toward willful, enthusiastic ignorance.

Re:More Juggalo research is needed

[RocketRabbit]

Clearly these fellows are just disappointed in the Hadley CRU and their cohorts "hiding the decline."

Re:More Juggalo research is needed

[Anonymous Coward]

ICP is getting more and more famous, or is it infamous? Keep talking and drawing attention to them...they need the money. I didn't even know they had a new album out until SNL made fun of them.

Re:More Juggalo research is needed

[slashdotisgay2]

Last I remember they "revealed" themselves as christians or w/e.

Re:More Juggalo research is needed

[sumdumass]

Lol.. I think you are missing the entire point of the song. It's not about any religion or elitism, it's about appreciating the things in life without needing to boil it down to some boring explanation. A rainbow or the birth of your child is a special moment that should be enjoyed and cherished, not some technical bullshit that takes any subliminal meaning away from it. It's about events that are a power greater then you- like 75,000 people in a room acting as one. the miracle isn't something any god did or caused, it's about how something is greater then the individual or you and against the odds, it came about. It's about how we should be in awe over those things instead of having it dwindled away to light refracting in a certain way.

I can understand why they didn't take kindly to a bunch of nerds who couldn't get that after being explained to them attempting to defeat the entire purpose of the song.

Re:More Juggalo research is needed

[h4rr4r]

If you can't have both you are defective. If the explanation of a rainbow makes it less good then you are the problem, not the man explaining it.

Re:More Juggalo research is needed

[The End Of Days]

Yeah, that whole part about scientists being liars really backs you up, too.

If you're an ICP fan, I recommend you kill yourself. This is a very Bill Hicks sort of recommendation. There is no joke, no humor is intended. Kill yourself. Quickly.

Re:More Juggalo research is needed

[Hognoxious]

Did you learn what the preview button does?

Re:More Juggalo research is needed

[sumdumass]

Let me ask you this, I know it's going to be hard to consider seeing how I'm going suppose a situation with a mate. Anyways, suppose you and your girlfriend or boyfriend (however you role) are sitting on a mountain side after a day of hanging together and after a short rain, you are holding hands, getting a little romantic, and notice a rainbow. Do you say "look honey- a rainbow, isn't it pretty?" Or do you say, "look at the refractions of light caused by rain droplets creating a prism effect at an angle we can see, isn't the spectral composition of the light pleasing to the photo receptors in the cornea?".

I can guarantee that for the most part, how you answer will indicate whether you get laid without paying for it or not. The point wasn't that you can't have it both ways, it's that you don't want to ruin one way with insisting on the other. You can very well know how something is created or caused and still see the magic in it.

Re:More Juggalo research is needed

[sumdumass]

I suggest you read the lyrics to the entire song before following other idiots down the path of stupidity. So what is the words say scientists are liars, some are. So what, the song also says things you believed as kids was a miracle, do you think we should take that seriously too?

Get over it. I'm sorry that a song insulted your precious belief structure and you are now so offended that you think others should kill themselves. Perhaps the world would be better off if you took your own advice. Here, "scientists are liars", now you can hate me too.

Geeze, you would have thought they drew a picture of Mohamed or something with the reactions some are having.

Re:More Juggalo research is needed

[fbjon]

You can very well know how something is created or caused and still see the magic in it.

I think the point being made was that this song demonstrates all emotion and zero knowledge. A deficient song, in other words. Also, the example you gave is rather ridiculous.

Re:More Juggalo research is needed

[SirSlud]

Trust me, if you can say "Scientists are liars" to your girlfriend with a straight face and you can still get laid, you can keep her. There are plenty of non-retarded women for the rest of us. It's quite likely that very few people would take issue with this song (you take that line out, it's practically a Celine Dion song) if it didn't contain that line.

Do go ahead and keep digging though.

Re:More Juggalo research is needed

[fbjon]

Hey, no need to defend sloppy writing so strongly.

Re:More Juggalo research is needed

[p3ngwin]

i think you are missing their entire point of science and evolution, as well as the people that appreciate them. how exactly *do* you appreciate something without understanding? isn't the very act of appreciating the process of understanding?

if you understand little about something, then it has little meaning, hence little appreciation. appreciation is the concept of understanding something in an increasing manner, such that it is connected to other knowledge, hence understanding it's place in everything and it's comparative value.

humans identify by comparison,value is identified the same way. if you can't compare things, they have less meaning and hence you have little clue as to their value.

on contrary, science is the very essence of understanding and placing things in context,helping to better understand the universe and it's components. by doing this we better understand the meaning of things and can appraise them with a more accurate value, hence more efficiently relating to them and letting us continue to evolve towards more awesome things.

why is understanding "boring" ? why is the pursuit of knowledge and a better understanding of external reality a sin? isn't to have a closer relationship with reality the ultimate goal, what could possibly be more important?

why is the rainbow or child-birth less appreciated because of a more accurate understanding of the *how* of it all? you sound just like the ICP believing that the pursuit of knowledge is evil and undermines the "wonder and magic" of the universe through human meddling.

also, what's this rubbish about "takes away the subliminal meaning..." ?

are saying you somehow believe there is an unconscious meaning behind these things, and that we are worse off by "learning" what makes these things happen?

clearly you are indeed as bad as the ICP for your penchant for ignorance.

your belief in miracles that are "greater than you" shows you really do not want to learn and grow into anything more than you are. you are against the very nature of learning, science, and evolution. i bet you wear your ICP make-up with pride while saying other people shouldn't be allowed to practice what the ICP does" freedom of speech.

you say we don't get it, yet you are only showing your bias and ignorance by saying ICP is fine for propagating their beliefs,while science-lovers shouldn't be allowed t express their belief of knowledge over ignorance.

ICP fans do't like the nerd-class, well other people didn't like the ICP result of ignorance and decided to do some propagating of their own. yet you believe that only ICP should be allowed to spread their beliefs?

you don't get it, you think it should be one-sided for the ICP and nay-sayers should just shut up and tolerate it. well, thanks to freedom of expression (what's lft of it) we are free to choose NOT to lie the idea of ignorance, and to teach people a better way according to US.

we could do without you trying to insert the ignorance of "subliminal" magic and wonder into the world,but you know what? we're fine to ALLOW you to act on your beliefs, as long as you're fine allowing the rest of us the same courtesy.

to claim that we shouldn't analyze and explain things away because it "makes it boring and less wondrous" is to condemn yourself to a life that believes you can't be happier with knowledge.

well the rest of us believe there is more wonder in the universe to enjoy through the exploration and understanding of it.

you're free to enjoy your beliefs, now allow those of us that enjoy learning and teaching knowledge to enjoy our beliefs.

Re:More Juggalo research is needed

[sumdumass]

Actually, some scientists are liars. So if you are going to only date brainwashed baboons who refuse to believe that scientist can be liars, then that's you own prerogative.

But I can tell how little interaction you have with the opposite sex by your reply that still missed the point after being almost spelled out with pictures drawn. You take the magic of the moment or event, not ruin it with the explanations that take that away. And no- that won't require telling someone that scientists are liars. You are attempting to ignore the entire song just to focus on words used to fill a verse in the song. And you already admit that it's a meaningless Celine Dion type song so why all the fuss?

Re:More Juggalo research is needed

[Locke2005]

On the other hand, when you realize your attraction for someone of the opposite sex is based on hormones, pheromones, and your subconscious calculation that your genetics mixed with theirs would generate offspring with a better chance of longterm viability, it does take some of the mystery and excitement out of your irrational longing for their booty...

Re:More Juggalo research is needed

[thrawn_aj]

Obviously, a child's sense of wonder is different from a that of a scientist. We have not lost our sense of wonder. We have merely ... upgraded it. Interestingly, Nature (while being a sneaky bitch) is also quite bountiful in that for every puzzle solved by science, we are given many more that are much more fascinating than the last.

Besides, the person in your example is just an idiot who cannot recognize a rhetorical question or an idle musing when he sees one. You are equating semantically challenged douchenozzles (or at the worst, science fanboys) with scientists - a common strawman in such debates. Also (thankfully), in this day and age, it is relatively easy to find men or women (as mates) who are not so flaky that they need to live in willful ignorance (which is different, mind you, from indulging oneself in whimsy every now and then) just to feel a false sense of wonder.

Also amusing are the idiots who try to reverse this loss of pseudo-wonder with the common refrain, "Well, surely it can't be as mundane as all that. Surely, there's something more to life than just the physical world?" To them I can only say - the day you've exhausted the wonders of the physical world (aka "reality" - that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away*)

Disclaimer: Not all of this was in direct reply to you. Some of it was a response to related misconceptions.

_____________
*Philip Dick

Re:More Juggalo research is needed

[thrawn_aj]

Actually, some scientists are liars.

Not about magnets :p

Old mysteries are old. Rabbit. Pancake on head, etc.

Re:More Juggalo research is needed

[thrawn_aj]

I don't think he was offended. He merely expressed contempt and disdain. There's a difference. The latter usually applies to relatively harmless things that are also abhorrent. For what it's worth, I do agree with you. Why are we talking seriously about a creepy little band and its creepy little fans on /. ?? This is at best a Reddit/Digg issue.

Re:More Juggalo research is needed

[sumdumass]

It doesn't say scientists are liars about magnets. What exactly are you trying to get at here?

Re:More Juggalo research is needed

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, yes, I'd go with "durr, pretty light!!!" Because most women I've dated do tend to be somewhat uneducated. And they can't appreciate it on both levels. But I can.

Re:More Juggalo research is needed

[Zaphod The 42nd]

"I don't wanna talk to no scientist; ya'll motherfuckers lying and getting me pissed."
"t's just anti-religious elitism"

Since when were religion and technology the same? Last I checked, religion has been the largest hindrance on science...

Re:More Juggalo research is needed

[Zaphod The 42nd]

A ) stop reducing EVERY argument to projecting your own failures with females. Not EVERYTHING is about getting laid. I talk starwars all day and then still manage to get laid. Anything you say "you should do X to get laid" is sexism. Thats assuming that women are in some way that men aren't. I assure you, for every guy out there going "rainbows are refractions of light!" there are JUST as many females saying the same thing.
And I'm not even like, women's lib or something, I'm a DUDE and I think you're stereotyping/oversimplifying.

B ) "fucking magnets, how do they work?" and "I don't wanna ask a scientist" has FUCK ALL to do with being able to see the aesthetic beauty in something. WHY does everybody act like everything has to be so boolean, its THIS or its THAT. How about, you can understand how the rainbow works, completely, scientifically, but you can still go "its pretty". I don't see the conflict there.

So, ultimately, you don't have to be ignorant, understanding science doesn't hurt you in any way, and this song is either just a troll attempt at publicity, or its just plain dumb. Look at us, we're ignorant! Yay!
Bah, grow up, get over your huge problems with ANY form of authority, and realize that this world doesn't run by your rules, it works by its own. If you want to understand them or not, thats up to you, but its only going to get you in trouble if you don't.

Re:More Juggalo research is needed

[Zaphod The 42nd]

I would like to thank Sumdumass for naming himself accurately.

Re:More Juggalo research is needed

[thrawn_aj]

It doesn't say scientists are liars about magnets. What exactly are you trying to get at here?

From this site:

M/V Analysis The music video for Miracles is most notable for its “effin’ terrible, nevertheless amazing” dynamic, with plenty of quotable phrases as “FUCKING MAGNETS, HOW DO THEY WORK?” (1:52) and “MAGIC EVERYWHERE IN THIS BITCH”, not to mention all of the things that happen in the video. He also mentions “fucking rainbows” which has become quite lulzworthy: Then Shaggy says “and I don’t want to talk to a scientist, y’all mother fuckers lyin, and gettin me pissed.” This line implies a sense of frustration and paramount struggle in understanding basic scientific concepts, while maintaining a childlike sense of wonder over the forces of nature. He wants to know how magnets work, yet he is not willing to accept a scientific explanation.

The "lying" thing is clearly aimed at all such phenomena. So, I'll add to my original snerk. "Not about magnets, rainbows or any other "mysteries" that were solved (to first approximation) a long time ago. In any case, I fully realize it's just a stupid song and is being taken way too seriously. It's like seriously responding to Jenny McCarthy about vaccines. Obvious trolls are obvious but seem to have hooked a lot of fishies.

Re:More Juggalo research is needed

[Anonymous Coward]

There have been a rather large number of famous religious scientists over the years.

Their religion didn't seem to hinder them.

The Catholic Church on the other hand[1]...

[1] some Christians even think the Catholic Church is a hindrance to Christianity and what Jesus wants- many of their traditions and practices can mislead Catholics (e.g. into worshiping Mary or the Saints - yes I know officially that's not what they're supposed to do, but a bad design is a bad design).

Re:More Juggalo research is needed

[Anonymous Coward]

I can understand why they didn't take kindly to a bunch of nerds who couldn't get that after being explained to them attempting to defeat the entire purpose of the song.

Yeah, the right way to present it would have been take it one step further.

Fuckin' magnets? Sure, we know how they work at a superficial level, but we still don't know how they work until we can unify gravitation with the electromagnetic, weak, and strong forces.

The whole reason CERN exists is because how mass works is still at the level of "miracle", even at Hawking's level of understandings.

ICP and "the scientists" are closer than they appear to be - on this issue. If we didn't appreciate how fucking awesome the universe is, we wouldn't have become scientists in the first place.

Re:More Juggalo research is needed

[sumdumass]

A ) stop reducing EVERY argument to projecting your own failures with females. Not EVERYTHING is about getting laid. I talk starwars all day and then still manage to get laid. Anything you say "you should do X to get laid" is sexism. Thats assuming that women are in some way that men aren't. I assure you, for every guy out there going "rainbows are refractions of light!" there are JUST as many females saying the same thing.
And I'm not even like, women's lib or something, I'm a DUDE and I think you're stereotyping/oversimplifying.

I can see you are projecting here. It sounds as if I struck a nerve and mentioned something you have had difficulty with or something. I know things aren't the way you wish they were but lets stay within the realm of reality here. Why we are at it, lets stay within the context too. I didn't say you couldn't get laid, I said you would have to pay for it. Admitting that you can get laid does nothing to detract from that. Romance isn't a sterile test tube. Get over it.

B ) "fucking magnets, how do they work?" and "I don't wanna ask a scientist" has FUCK ALL to do with being able to see the aesthetic beauty in something. WHY does everybody act like everything has to be so boolean, its THIS or its THAT. How about, you can understand how the rainbow works, completely, scientifically, but you can still go "its pretty". I don't see the conflict there.

It's fucking lyrics in a stupid song. No one called your mom a whore or anything, why are you so upset? I mean if you take the song in context instead of those two or three lines, you will see the big picture which is what I was attempting to explain. However, seeing how you insist on concentrating on a few lines in the entire stupid song that is filled with stupid shit, please tell me what is so violently wrong about those lines that they have to be taken out of context from the rest of the song and bitched about by slashdot who should know better to begin with? I mean read the damn lyrics, the song starts with: If magic is all we've ever know- Then it's easy to miss what really goes on- But I've seen miracles in every way And I see miracles everyday.

The song is about the moment different events or states of mind creates, about things being bigger then yourself. It's about realizing that and appreciating them. But like the damn song says, you have to ignore that and concentrate on a few lines making it mean something it does not. To quote the song, And I don't wanna talk to a scientist- Y'all motherfuckers lying, and getting me pissed. That is to say, you are making something out of nothing and creating a beast that simply isn't there. I'm sorry the song offended you by saying scientists lie, but of course the answer to that is that they have and do lie all the time. Remember the scientists claiming that smoking didn't cause harm to the body? Just look around and you will find scientists making unsupported claims to enrich their own lives or push the agenda of their employers. So where is the problem other then the context you can't seem to keep?

So, ultimately, you don't have to be ignorant, understanding science doesn't hurt you in any way, and this song is either just a troll attempt at publicity, or its just plain dumb. Look at us, we're ignorant! Yay!

Your right, you don't have to be ignorant. You don't have to be doctor laura or whoever claiming a fist bump is a terrorist sign or claiming killing prostitutes and cops in a game or song translates to the same in real life. The message of the song is carpe diem- not be stupid.

Bah, grow up, get over your huge problems with ANY form of authority, and realize that this world doesn't run by your rules, it works by its own. If you want to understand them or not, thats up to you, but its only going to get you in trouble if you don't.

It sounds like you are the one that need

Re:More Juggalo research is needed

[Zaphod The 42nd]

You imply I only have sex with whores, and then ask why I'm so upset. Funny.

Re:More Juggalo research is needed

[sumdumass]

Why don't you try simply reading the lyrics for yourself instead of parroting other sites who obviously got it wrong? Here, I'll even help you seeing how your search apparently only comes up with crap you want to support your misconceptions. You will find the first few lyrics set the premise for the entire song. It starts with If magic is all we've ever know
Then it's easy to miss what really goes on

BTW, when you look at the rest of the lyrics, you will find things you can add to your list that have more then obvious answers then miracles; like the pyramids, UFO's, the shit you believe when your a kid, animals in in various forms, Music, and so on. You will find lines like Take a look at this fine creation- And enjoy it better with appreciation, Just open your mind, and it ain't no way- To ignore the miracles of every day.

The entire song is about appreciating the stuff that goes on around you. Work an scientists were most likely used only to get a rhyme with dirt and pissed.

Re:More Juggalo research is needed

[thrawn_aj]

Lighten up Francis. I'll say it again, since you missed it the first time.

In any case, I fully realize it's just a stupid song and is being taken way too seriously. It's like seriously responding to Jenny McCarthy about vaccines. Obvious trolls are obvious but seem to have hooked a lot of fishies.

And what search? I simply RTFA. It's a fucking song and this is the IDLE section of /. People are making too much of this. And people seem to put musicians on a fucking pedestal for issues that they are severely under-equipped to discuss intelligently. Pyramids and UFOs? What the hell does any of that have to do with scientists? Get real. Pyramids = overrated cargo cult science. UFOs exist - they are UNIDENTIFIED flying objects. I have no quarrel with that. So yeah, I guess UFOs qualify as a mystery. Again, lying scientists? lolwut? I'm fine with a nostalgic memory of things I used to believe as a child. Then I grew up and found much more interesting things to wonder at instead of the stupid shit that people (and the childhood me) waste their time on.

Work an scientists were most likely used only to get a rhyme with dirt and pissed.

What do I need to smoke to understand this line? :p Maybe you need to relax and not bang the keyboard blindly. If it's a line from the song, I apologize for attributing it to you.

Re:More Juggalo research is needed

[Cassius Corodes]

Why would it? You either enjoy spending time with them or you dont. Explaining why you enjoy spending time with them doesn't really change that at all.

Re:More Juggalo research is needed

[thrawn_aj]

By the way, I did take your advice and read the lyrics. Not too bad. But the message is clear: "Open your mind, but not so much that you'll actually understand how any of these things work because it is irreverent to seek the answer to a mystery. Instead, just be like the mystics and enjoy the most superficial manifestation of the wonders that surround us instead of going deeper and uncovering more profound mysteries." Of course, the mystics use sexier language (i.e. obscurantist bullshit) - "feel, don't think", "use your heart, not your mind". I feel myself floating already :p

As I wrote elsewhere, no one's offended by the lyrics. Contempt & disdain != feeling offended. But such attitudes (as espoused by the mystics) are too easy to criticize and we shouldn't fall in the trap of doing so because then it just becomes a circle-jerk with no constructive outcome.

Re:More Juggalo research is needed

[thrawn_aj]

Ach. Didn't finish my sentence. "To them I can only say - the day you've exhausted all the wonders of the physical world, I will cease to be revolted by your primal need to dismiss the wonders of nature-that-exists as mundane and look to flights of fancy as more satisfying "explanations" of those natural wonders". Something more? Something more than what? People that don't know much of that "what" appear so pathetic when they demand something "more" when they are clueless about the things they want to transcend. It's like saying the PS7 has crappy graphics and you want the PS8 (or even worse, something "more") when we're only up to the PS3.

Re:More Juggalo research is needed

[p3ngwin]

"....it does take some of the mystery and excitement out of your irrational longing for their booty......."

again, i must ask why is there a wish to stagnate and stall the advancement of the universe because of a desire to never wonder at more than *this* ?

you learn something, which leads to better wonders as yet unexplained. why is there a desire to remain in stasis, never to upgrade yourself to ever more happiness? do these people *really* bemoan the exploration and advancement of knowledge that explained the world's shape, the space that the stars live in, the nature of DNA, electricity, the wheel, the computer...were these all evil advancements of knowledge that "stole" magic and wonder? does understanding how your taste buds work take away your pleasure of your food?

the only reason for willful ignorance is a fear of knowledge that would offend a deity, or fear that we will reach an "end" that would harm us. a willful desire to remain ignorant to make sure that you don't get too close to the "unknown", a fear of the unknown that is ancient as it is useless. for those that wish to remain ignorant in fear of what knowledge brings, let them. but they must also let the remaining explorers do what they enjoy too, and that is to know everything due to a insatiable desire to have ever increasing happiness.

Re:More Juggalo research is needed

[fractoid]

I don't know why you got modded 'troll' - I guess that dude can't get laid without paying for it. :P

Do you say "look honey- a rainbow, isn't it pretty?" Or do you say, "look at the refractions of light caused by rain droplets creating a prism effect at an angle we can see, isn't the spectral composition of the light pleasing to the photo receptors in the cornea?".

Your dilemma here isn't about mysticism vs. science. It's about nerdspeak vs. normalspeak. If your partner is as much of a geek as you are then you can get away with nerdspeak and still make with the hot and steamy. (I cut a middle path - "hey sweetie look at that awesome rainbow! I love physics!")

Honestly, the world is a lot more impressive if you realise that all of these magical-seeming phenomena result from the same basic rules than if you just say 'a wizard did it'. I find that understanding the physics behind a rainbow or an ocean wave just makes them that much more beautiful.

For instance, explaining an approaching thunderhead: "Moist air rises when it's heated, and as the rising air cools to dewpoint, the water condenses and then freezes, giving up its latent heat to keep the air rising into the stratosphere, while the low pressure region sucks in more moist warm air, which continues to fuel the thunderhead. Eventually the water droplets coalesce to a size where the updraft can no longer support them, and they fall, soaking that unfortunate douche in the convertible next to us." Much better than "look, it's a big cloud with some rain". :P

Re:More Juggalo research is needed

[p3ngwin]

exactly, there are some of us that actually *like* knowing why things happen, appreciating them more because of it. some call it *wisdom*. knowing one things leads onto another, and if you're clever about your choices you can lead yourself to more happiness, or at least *learn* why it didn't and ensure the same mistake doesn't repeat. how many of us would be as happy today with our childhood toys?

is it better to simply know what *is*, or better to understand *why* ?

i prefer to know as much as possible.

Re:More Juggalo research is needed

[sumdumass]

Man, I didn't realize how many ignorant people are out here until I started posting on this. Do you really believe that there is nothing special about anything or that nothing can be bigger then yourself? Maybe I should reply in line instead of going off on a rant that i'm sure will not be understood.

i think you are missing their entire point of science and evolution, as well as the people that appreciate them. how exactly *do* you appreciate something without understanding? isn't the very act of appreciating the process of understanding?

No, I'm not missing anything. However, I do think things like evolution are overstated as fact instead of hypothesized theory where appropriate but that's another story and was only brought up by your comment. Anyways, there is states of awe and appreciation for the finer things in life that come from just enjoying the moment. It's like fireworks, we know there is a series of chemical reactions that propel them into the air and make them explode, even showing different colors and effects. But to sit there and appreciate their beauty and power when viewing them instead of concerning ourselves with exactly how they are made or what chemicals caused what, allows us to enjoy them more, its the magic of the event. And yes, Magic is used figuratively.

if you understand little about something, then it has little meaning, hence little appreciation. appreciation is the concept of understanding something in an increasing manner, such that it is connected to other knowledge, hence understanding it's place in everything and it's comparative value.

humans identify by comparison,value is identified the same way. if you can't compare things, they have less meaning and hence you have little clue as to their value.

on contrary, science is the very essence of understanding and placing things in context,helping to better understand the universe and it's components. by doing this we better understand the meaning of things and can appraise them with a more accurate value, hence more efficiently relating to them and letting us continue to evolve towards more awesome things.

complete and utter nonsense. Value is places on thing all the time without science being behind it. People put the value of being with family above the value of drinking with the boys all the time. People put value on paintings an objects of art that have no correlation to the science behind the pigmentation of metallurgy involved in the creations. You can even take something to create something else which it's value will be less then what it costs to put together.

But you see, all that aside, you are still missing the point. What's the difference between a man made hill and a small mountain? Very little when you are enjoying the beauty of it and the wild life surrounding it. You skip the details and appreciate the real things that have value to you- you seize the moment more or less.

why is understanding "boring" ? why is the pursuit of knowledge and a better understanding of external reality a sin? isn't to have a closer relationship with reality the ultimate goal, what could possibly be more important?

I'm not sure that anyone said either of that. At least not in our thread. It's not about not understanding, it's about not letting the understanding get in the way of the enjoyment. And who said anything about an ultimate goal and why would a closer relationship with reality require anything more then appreciating what is around you? I know that the reality of the situation is that gravity exists and has certain behaviors, but we don't know for a fact why it exists, and we can't recreate it in it's entirety in any experiments. that doesn't mean it isn't a reality though.

why is the rainbow or child-birth less appreciated because of a more accurate understanding of the *how* of it all? you sound just like the

Re:More Juggalo research is needed

[sumdumass]

Evidently, the message isn't all that clear. The message is more of open your mind, and don't stop enjoying the mysteries and things around you. It's that there are magical moments you don't want to get lost in the details of.

It's not about not learning or anything of the sort. It's about the possibilities and wonders associated with them. For instance, it mentions the pyramids, we know about when they were built, we think we know how and by whom, we know what they were used for, but they are still one of the wonders of the world and for good reason. Take the part about a child's imagination for instance, there is a magical moment when he doesn't quite understand your neighbor's story about getting a piece of tail off some girl and actually thinks some women have tails. In other words, don't let the mysteries in life, don't let the awe something creates, don't let the magical experiences disappear because they are miracles that allow us to enjoy life. It's not about not understanding, it's about not letting the understanding take that part of the experience away.

Re:More Juggalo research is needed

[sumdumass]

Lighten up Francis. I'll say it again, since you missed it the first time.

I guess I'm imposing much of the other replies I have read in with your comments. A lot of them are making claims about pushing bibles and crap like that because the song mentioned miracles and shit. It's getting really frustrating when someone makes a claim that is only supported in their head. I guess maybe I was getting a little short with you for no reason.

What do I need to smoke to understand this line? :p Maybe you need to relax and not bang the keyboard blindly. If it's a line from the song, I apologize for attributing it to you.

The ICP have some BS where they attempt to talk in rhymes. In the movie, "big money hustlers" they even made fun of it when the star or main charactor is bummed out and all drugged up. It's sort of rap thing or something, I'm not sure because I'm not really into them.

Anyways, in the song, it the lines go:

• I see miracles all around me
• Stop and look around, it's all astounding
• Water, fire, air and dirt
• Fucking magnets, how do they work?
• And I don't wanna talk to a scientist
• Y'all motherfuckers lying, and getting me pissed
• Solar eclipse, and vicious weather
• Fifteen thousand Juggalos together

  What I was commenting on was the around me rhyming with astounding- dirt and work- scientist and pissed- weather and together. Every line seems to have to rhyme and I'm probably sure that the line fucking magnets, how do they work was to get a rhyme with Water, Fire, Air and Dirt. The line about scient-ists and pissed are the same.

Re:More Juggalo research is needed

[thrawn_aj]

It seems like that's the message you want it to have (and not what someone would infer from reading the lyrics). Fair enough, it's a song and open to interpretation. As I wrote before, if it's just about nostalgically remembering those childhood when so many things seemed mysterious and reliving those moments again, fine. It's just that there's an enormous disconnect between your latest post and all that crap about lying scientists.

Re:More Juggalo research is needed

[thrawn_aj]

Ah I see now. That (rhyme thing) makes sense. Thanks for the clarification. I do agree that jumping on the ICP just for saying "miracles" is rather silly. Though if it interests you, when I was browsing for the article, I caught a glimpse of "ICP came out as Christian" or something like that (dunno what it was about). Again, none of my business but it may be relevant to you. Perhaps those other people commented based on other information (and not just the lyrics). The whole juggalo thing is fascinating though. I've never seen a movement like this based on just a single band.

Re:More Juggalo research is needed

[sumdumass]

Again, lets keep the context. I only implied this about you after you got upset first.

Re:More Juggalo research is needed

[Anonymous Coward]

C'mon sumdumass, are you serious? Of course you can find a rainbow or childbirth to be amazing things while still understanding scientifically what they are. Why does this have to be mutually exclusive? The problem with ICP is they think that understanding somehow diminishes or takes away from amazement, and that to be truly amazed by something, you have to be ignorant and clueless about it. Let's not forget everyone's favorite line in this song: "Fucking magnets. How do they work?" That line, in addition to being inadvertent comedy gold, speaks volumes about ICP's philosophy of a necessary tradeoff between understanding and amazement, one that arguably does not need to exist.

Re:More Juggalo research is needed

[sumdumass]

originally, the juggalo thing was more or less a way of not fitting in. It's like being a misfit without intentionally looking for trouble and knowing it. It was about knowing there where others like you but who like you didn't want to fall into a specific click. Juggalos pretty much did whatever they wanted and didn't subscribe to any creed other then do your own thing and listen to ICP and were generally the people society kicked to the side because they weren't pretty enough or didn't follow some certain belief or had the shit jobs or whatever. Many of the Juggalos have moved up in life as they got older but still claim on to the juggalo deal. The whole idea was that people didn't take them serious, they treated them like clowns- so along comes the insane clown posse who didn't ignore them. Their songs more or less make fun of other music genres and people in general which is probably why they are hated so much. Of course there are some that are just music- or seems that way. Most of their songs pretty much suck unless you get the inside joke behind them. Maybe they are just so bland that you can superimpose your own inside joke on them.

I'm not sure if it's the same now or not. I never was a juggalo but know people who were/are.

Anyways, I don't think they came out as Christian- If they did they have a funny way of showing it. There was a long running joke about purgatory but that was a joke. Go to their website and check out some of their music samplers-. Especially check out the Bang! Pow! Boom! selection (their newest album 2009). I warn you, it isn't work or family safe. In fact, I think it would get you thrown out of church as fast as they can grab you if you were to listen to it there. I think the Bang! Pow! Boom! selection is the first one by default if you click on the launch music player link. Check out the juggalo homies song too, it sort of describes the juggalos.

Re:More Juggalo research is needed

[Zaphod The 42nd]

Nope, in your own words, you didn't claim I couldn't get laid, you claimed I couldn't get laid without paying, right from the start. Or were you lying? In which case you claimed I couldn't get laid at all.

Either way, ad hominem.

Re:More Juggalo research is needed

[p3ngwin]

do you really prefer to live in a state where you never create anything yourself, only to self-gratifyingly enjoy wondering and enjoying the awe of what already exists?

don't you like the idea of being responsible for your own life and create better things and being happier through your own advancement, creating more than there already is?

"But to sit there and appreciate their beauty and power when viewing them instead of concerning ourselves with exactly how they are made or what chemicals caused what, allows us to enjoy them more, its the magic of the event. And yes, Magic is used figuratively."

who said anything about not being able to enjoy them due to understanding? i simply said it's my preference to understand, so as to be able to create better things and enjoy *them*. i don't want to stay 2 years old forever wondering about unicorns and rainbows. our brains don't work like that, we have information pouring into our brains 24hrs non-stop and we constantly try to make meaning out of all the data, we evolve. it's increasingly more difficult to remain ignorant due to this process, requiring all sorts of effort to stop information entering our senses in case we accidentally process it and figure how things work. witness all of history with dictators and cult leaders trying to keep the peasants stagnant by outlawing reading & writing, trying to stop people evolving and getting more enlightened. trying to stop wisdom.

do you believe that deep meditation is a bad thing for wishing to understand the universe and how it works, trying to seek out the greater truths that lead to greater happiness? would you tell Buddhist monks that their pursuit of ultimate knowledge and peace is a futile one that will lead to a loss of wonder and "magic" ?

"But you see, all that aside, you are still missing the point. What's the difference between a man made hill and a small mountain? Very little when you are enjoying the beauty of it and the wild life surrounding it. You skip the details and appreciate the real things that have value to you- you seize the moment more or less."

say you, to the rest of us we place value on what we identify and believe in. if we built that hill, then we may value it for it's use to us (we built it for a reason yes?), and just because you say so doesn't make it so. you can't tell the rest of us "...You skip the details and appreciate the real things that have value to you- you seize the moment more or less...", as it's up to the individual what the appreciate and *why*. maybe we like the details, maybe we like the understanding of the knowledge that went into the creation of the hill. maybe we are happy evolving to a state that we can understand the purpose and mechanism of how to build a hill. maybe we're proud of our achievement instead of remaining ignorant of the mountain and thinking "i wonder how that mountain came to be". doesn't the very fact a state of *wonder* suggest to you a desire to *know* ?

"..., it's about not letting the understanding get in the way of the enjoyment..."
yes, to YOU.
you *have* been saying that knowledge and understanding is counter to appreciating the "magic and wonder" of the sensed state. don't try and back-track now and say you weren't in agreement with the ICP's stance that knowledge is counter to appreciating the magic of this universe. stick by your original comment unless you want to recount it and admit you were mistaken.

"...why would a closer relationship with reality require anything more then appreciating what is around you?..." really? you believe you can achieve a closer relationship with reality without knowledge, learning, and understanding? please enlighten the rest of us poor idiots doing it the hard way educating ourselves.

"...I know that the reality of the situation is that gravity exists and has certain behaviors, but we don't know for a fact why it exists, and we can't recreate it in it's entirety in any experiments. that doesn't mean it isn't a reality though..." yes, we don't know the

Re:More Juggalo research is needed

[p3ngwin]

i think for the most part, you seem to be saying that understanding has little to do with appreciating the "beauty" of anything, that is, that our happiness shouldn't be dependent on knowledge. understanding shouldn't get in the way. whilst this may be acceptable for some things, to enjoy them without knowing how they work, it is for the most part not applicable on the whole.

you *can* enjoy something without understanding, but that choice of ignorant hedonism over learning will lead a short and fruitless life, as you will not be able to evolve and be happier. to two most important things for a human are health and education, you need health to stay alive, and education to evolve and change. neither of which happen if we all sit back and marvel at "miracles" without wanting to know how things work. we need to keep changing and evolving through health and education, otherwise we remain in the caves and die when one of the many possible Extinction Level Events hits our species.

none of this changes the fact that this song DOES promote mysticism over education.

Re:More Juggalo research is needed

[the_womble]

It has nothing to do with religion, its about preferring to look at the world in an emotive rather than analytical way.

This is not a new or uncommon point of view, and I do not see why its worth bothering about.

Re:More Juggalo research is needed

[obeythefist]

Ah, but the people in the ICP would tell you that the rainbow is "natural" and the scientific explanation, if presented by a scientist, is a lie, and makes them angry. If your girlfriend tells you that she agrees the rainbow is pretty, in your example, then as an avid Juggalo and in supporting their arguments, you should become "pissed" and tell her it is a lie.

Also, swear at magnets and ask how they work, but do not accept any actual scientific explanation or attempt any research. It is a "miracle".

Re:More Juggalo research is needed

[initialE]

Why do you have to be so mean about it?

Re:More Juggalo research is needed

[Hognoxious]

It's my normal mode of operating.

Re:More Juggalo research is needed

[Alsee]

No, whatd oes it do?

-

Re:More Juggalo research is needed

[sumdumass]

Perhaps you should take a course on comprehension or something. I postulated two distinct scenarios and said one of them wouldn't get you laid unless you were paying for it. I didn't even mention which one and left you to come to your own conclusions. That in and of itself is not a claim that you can't get laid. What is it does though, is it draws you into admitting the reality of the statements because you got offended when one statement and the result resembled personal experience.

Now- your personal revelation does not make a statement of fact from me. The statement was directed towards you but not at you and the conclusions of the statement was meant to be fulfilled by you. In other words, it was designed so that you would read it, say "hey, that's me" then post about it so the rest of the world will know by your own words.

Go ahead and reread the statement. without you injecting the your own personal experiences and realities into it, it makes no mention of whether or not you can get laid or if you specifically have to pay for it.

Re:More Juggalo research is needed

[sumdumass]

Why don't you go to the http://www.insaneclownposse.com/, click in the launch player link, and tell us which deity they are afraid to offend? BTW, that's not work safe and probably not family safe either.

It sounds like your comment is mostly out of your own ignorance. The reason why we know the shape of the world, about electricity, and so on is because the magic and wonders captivated someone and they explored them. You know what you know now because people did exactly what this song says, they opened their minds and saw what was going on, they ignored what they were told and explored their own reality. They felt the power of the moment, the miracle of the moment and embraced it. That is why you know what you know today. That is why we know the planets revolve around the sun and not the earth, that is why we know the world isn't flat and you won't fall off it. That is why we know many things we do today.

Stop confusing your fear of religions with this song or what it says. Stop imposing your fear of religion simply because the song uses a few words that religions use. Go ahead and listen to their crap on their website and tell me what religion they are afraid of offending. And if you bring up the dark carnival, then we all will know you are just an idiot who doesn't get the joke.

Re:More Juggalo research is needed

[p3ngwin]

listen, i get that they are using "miracle" as the word to describe how much they "appreciate" the things they mention in the song, what i don't get is you and they both believe "understanding" gets in the way *of* that appreciation.

it's a romanticized world view that prefers to remain ignorant, instead of learning the *why* and only enjoying the *what*. like a child that doesn't want to grow up for fear they'll never appreciate magic shows again once they learn how they work. what i disagree with, not fear, is simply the preference to remain ignorant instead of evolving through learning. for the hedonistic idea that they prefer a perpetual state of "wonder" that they believe "understanding" will belittle. willful ignorance.

i have no fear about what they believe, as i don't believe *in* fear. fear is simply the belief that a choice will lead to an undesirable outcome. there is nothing mystical in that, or any "miracle" that the ICP "appreciates". if they want to marvel at the "the sun, the moon, the ocean and stars", that's great, but there is a difference between wondering "wow! that's so cool i wonder how that works", and "wow that's so cool that it looks like magic, i want to stay in this state forever by not learning how the magic is done".

that's the crux of it, a preference to "miracles" over understanding, a willful preference to remain undeveloped. a romanticized preference by an irrational, over-emotional, unstable mentality that prefers it's own "world" to the real world. just like the child resists the parents teaching them all about the real world, because the child's fantasy is much more entertaining with less effort. looking at these clowns, they are just big kids too, they have the most immature lifestyle and world-view, and they sing and entertain other followers about it all. they promote staying in the child's mentality for as long as you can, resisting learning and understanding for fear it will steal the "magic and miracle" away and you'll never be able to "appreciate" it as much.

*THAT* is what i disagree with, and that's what this is all about. the religious deity i mentioned is the same entity that any child would follow and fear, the deity of their own creation. i never mentioned a particular religion, simply a belief, and the belief is the God of ignorant hedonism. these clown kids are afraid to grow up, and are encouraging other people to retard their ways too. the fear is not mine, but the ICP, for they are scared that they will have to grow up into adults and assume the responsibilities that come with that.

you only have to listen to one of the clowns replying to the many reactions to the "miracles" track, to understand that this is an immature child in an adult's body. one who is still seeking an identity, and resisting the outside world because that world doesn't believe in magic the same way.
go here: http://www.hollywoodrag.com/index.php?/weblog/insane_clown_posse_on_the/
and notice how this clown describes how even though he sings and performs about "miracles", he doesn't even want to know the dictionary definition of what he promotes to others. this is a person with his own beliefs, and cares less what that may be interpreted as in the real world. this clown is ignorant and delusional.

"We've been "The Most Hated Band in The World" for many years. Without all the hate on the outside, it wouldn't be as warm as it is on the inside with the Juggalo Fam. Instead, all the hate "Miracles" generates makes us sad. Sad for the haters."

here we see that the clowns are a couple of kids that have separated themselves, a resistance to integrate with adult social norms, and have retarded themselves and creates their own identity that suits them, even right down to the visual identity of clown make-up. these are not rational people, these are the actions of someone who refuses to integrate with the rest of society, even to the extent of refusing the accepted defin

Re:More Juggalo research is needed

[sumdumass]

listen, i get that they are using "miracle" as the word to describe how much they "appreciate" the things they mention in the song, what i don't get is you and they both believe "understanding" gets in the way *of* that appreciation.

Lol.. Neither of us believe understanding gets in the way of appreciating the things. But insisting on the understanding can detract from the perceptions of the things. You can know how a baby is made and born, knowing it came from you is a miracle even though you know your sperm fertilized an egg and the woman carried it to conception. Understanding isn't the problem, using the understanding in front of the appreciation is.

it's a romanticized world view that prefers to remain ignorant, instead of learning the *why* and only enjoying the *what*. like a child that doesn't want to grow up for fear they'll never appreciate magic shows again once they learn how they work. what i disagree with, not fear, is simply the preference to remain ignorant instead of evolving through learning. for the hedonistic idea that they prefer a perpetual state of "wonder" that they believe "understanding" will belittle. willful ignorance.

And here you are talking out your ass again. Just like when you tried to claim that one of the most foul mouthed disgusting groups around was Christians pushing their agenda in the last post. Nothing means remain ignorant at all, no one is suggesting that.

Never before have I seen so many people proudly showing their ignorance and repeating the stupid shit others claimed without ever investigating it themselves then have I with this article. You seem hell bent on insisting that your made up on the spot view is correct despite all evidence contrary. I guess if you don't get it, then you should stay away from it instead of imposing fake shit and pretending you know something.

i have no fear about what they believe, as i don't believe *in* fear. fear is simply the belief that a choice will lead to an undesirable outcome. there is nothing mystical in that, or any "miracle" that the ICP "appreciates". if they want to marvel at the "the sun, the moon, the ocean and stars", that's great, but there is a difference between wondering "wow! that's so cool i wonder how that works", and "wow that's so cool that it looks like magic, i want to stay in this state forever by not learning how the magic is done".

See above-- BTW, did you ever figure out what Deity they were afraid of offending?

that's the crux of it, a preference to "miracles" over understanding, a willful preference to remain undeveloped. a romanticized preference by an irrational, over-emotional, unstable mentality that prefers it's own "world" to the real world. just like the child resists the parents teaching them all about the real world, because the child's fantasy is much more entertaining with less effort. looking at these clowns, they are just big kids too, they have the most immature lifestyle and world-view, and they sing and entertain other followers about it all. they promote staying in the child's mentality for as long as you can, resisting learning and understanding for fear it will steal the "magic and miracle" away and you'll never be able to "appreciate" it as much.

See above again. BTW have you even read the lyrics to the song? My guess is no because you couldn't reasonably make that shit up if you did. My god you are a total idiot. It has nothing to do with remaining ignorant and no one is promoting that, that's just something you want to impose on it. It has to do with the wonder of how and why- the magical feeling of witnessing something larger then yourself- the miracle of a kid being it's own independent conscious. Like I said before, see above.

*THAT* is what i disagree with, and that's what this is all about. the religious deity i mentioned is the same

Re:More Juggalo research is needed

[p3ngwin]

you're getting so full of abuse and contradictions that it makes no sense to continue with you. i'm only happy your behaviour is available for others to see and learn from.

Re:More Juggalo research is needed

[sumdumass]

Here is the short form, you are wrong, wrong, wrong, and not smart enough to understand a simple concept. Your reading comprehension sucks so much that you impose your own personal and imaginary beliefs onto what you are incredibly stupid at.

Most of that post is a reference to one of two lines in the beginning of it which say the effect of the above. Nothing in my post is contradicting to anything other then your own imaginary beliefs that you insist on imposing onto the subject. That doesn't make what I say contradictory, it makes what you believe contradictory.

And yes, others will see the same thing. Especially since you pointed it out and they will now go back and attempt to find it.

Re:More Juggalo research is needed

[p3ngwin]

i agree on the kill themselves part, but i'd be quite happy to see them do it slowly and painfully. unless there are too many and the novelty wears off, then they can hurry-the-fuck-up.

Re:More Juggalo research is needed

[p3ngwin]

in fact my partner being like-minded finds such expression quite flattering. we relate to each other in such ways as to express how we think about each other regarding looks, behaviour, intention, etc. when she says i look "healthy" and "happy" it's a good thing to me, just as when i describe her as "assertive" and "strategic", she finds that a turn on too.

we don't say things like "oh baby, we were meant to be together as kindred spirits. i knew it in my heart the moment i sensed your aura!".

we don't think like that, so we don't behave like that, by ourselves or towards each other. when one of us asks how/why something works, the other doesn't respond "magic man done it!". we explain in an adult way by respecting each others mentality and development. we don't condescend each other as if we're teaching a child.

we have our own ways to relate to each other and have our own "language" of sounds and looks that's personal to us, just as many couples that are tight have such relations. but we certainly don't patronize each other by assuming the one of us is incapable or unwilling to learn the truth about the reality we live in, indeed it is our happy pursuit to change ourselves in order to learn this reality.

unlike theists, who prefer to adhere to a prescribed reality and will do anything to refute any evidence of the contrary. such as the ICP and idiots that follow. if write a song titled "miracles" and use the world often in it's lyrics, yet admit to not even bothering to understand the way it's defined in your languages dictionary, then you are either a devout believer of your own personal reality, or willfully ignorant of a reality you know is true and wish wasn't I.E. delusional.

in other words, these clowns are using the English language in ways that well-adjusted people can't relate to. this behaviour is usually called "crazy". yet i bet that ICP and their followers take comfort in the self-imposed ostracizing from society (really, who "kicked them to the curb?") even though no one made fun of them before they started *wanting* to be different. they had nothing special about themselves, so they created this identity, just like any teen-angst-y bunch of people acting out. a desire to be special, yet a desire to non-conform, resulting in creating a separate identity they can all relate to. well done clowns, you have successfully created your own non-existent problem to simultaneously perpetuate an complain about.

the more the rest of us say their ignorant and nuts, the more the clowns say "see? people on the outside looking in don't understand us, that's why we gathered together so we circle-jerk in our own self-imposed support group".

perpetual, hypocritical bullshit.

Re:More Juggalo research is needed

[Anonymous Coward]

sumdumbass == troll
Zaphod == poor soul that fell into troll's trap

and all of this over an idle article..

Representatives?

[girlintraining]

Representatives of bands around here tend to get lynched. Just use the word copyright. Comeon now, just one little word... it's all we need. I dare 'ya!

knowledge

[Anonymous Coward]

2O2 + H2 => 2H2O

fuckin' miracles!

Re:knowledge

[simcop2387]

damn idiots, its O2 + 2H2 => 2H2O

Re:knowledge

[dyingtolive]

You must be the smartest Juggalo EVAR!

Re:knowledge

[Anonymous Coward]

not if you're a juggalo

Re:knowledge

[selven]

H2O is only for hot water. The formula for cold water is CO2.

Re:knowledge

[sumdumass]

God I wish I had mod points for that.

This was the first post in I don't remmeber how long that actually made me laugh. Good going.

Re:knowledge

[thrawn_aj]

*snert* =D

Proverbs come to mind...

[Walter Wart]

Making a silk purse out of a sow's ear
Casting pearls before swine
Never wrassle with a hog. You get muddy and the hog enjoys it

But then I realize the comparisons are insulting to the pigs

Re:Proverbs come to mind...

[dAzED1]

hogs don't actually enjoy it. I know it's just a saying, but it's a saying based on the false belief that hogs and pigs like to be dirty. When the only time you see a hog is in an unnatural environment...don't presume to know what it likes ;)

Re:Proverbs come to mind...

[db32]

Actually pigs do like rolling in the mud. Though it has to do with staying cool and keeping the sun off rather than liking the dirt.

Re:Proverbs come to mind...

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, this is quite apropos:

"Putting wings on a pig won't make it fly.

But if you put enough makeup on it, somebody will screw it."

Re:Proverbs come to mind...

[Red Flayer]

I raised hogs as a kid. Both in a "regular" sty and in a no-mud sty with grates for waste elimination and misters for cooling.

It's not a scientific observation, but I felt like the satisfaction hogs felt rolling in the mud was palpable -- and only matched by the satisfaction they seemed to take in rubbing up against posts to scratch itches.

FWIW, the hogs in the no-mud enclosures were content to lie next to the misters (in shade, of course), but they did not radiate contentment the way the pigs that rolled in mud did.

Re:Proverbs come to mind...

[dAzED1]

funny that someone thought to down rate me, someone who has raised hogs and has seen many of them in the wild, as "overrated" - and then uprate you for just repeating the same thing someone else said.

"X!"

"No, X isn't actually true" - overrate -1

"X!" - insightful +4!

Hogs don't like being in mud in the first place. The only reason they are, is because they were *put there*. They are naturally a fairly clean animal; if well kept in a humane way, they'll always poop in one place, as far away from their food as they can. What 99.9999% of the population has seen, or heard described, is instead a nasty pen that the hog finds extremely depressing. They get into a cycle where they try to clean themselves off, but instead get dirtier. Sometimes, in a large open area, they'll do what elephants do - they'll cover themselves in a light layer of dirt/mud as a sort of natural sunscreen. They don't do this because they enjoy the process, they do it because they're in the sun and have no shade.

Now, go find a feral hog and instead you'll find a relatively clean animal (sans the snout itself) that looks nothing like his hog-farm kept brothers. And that's the point - hog farms are un-natural, and hogs are known to be extremely depressed at hog farms. To presume that you know what someone "enjoys" because of their behavior when they're at a cruel place they obviously don't want to be at, is silly.

Even sillier is presuming that hogs like it when their fleeing in terror at a rodeo during some sort of pig wrestling event. I suppose the bulls enjoy the rodeo too, and that's why they're so happy and pleased to give the rider such a fun time?

Re:Proverbs come to mind...

[camperdave]

I believe the mud acts as a bug repellant as well.

Re:Proverbs come to mind...

[dAzED1]

you're mentioning something that you're then not even considering; there's another factor in play here. Remember, correlation does not equal causation ;)

The hogs that had mud to roll around in were then able to move about within their pen without being affected much by the sun. They'd merely need to roll around in the mud again once they started getting hot.

The other hogs had to sit in one particular area, not moving around, otherwise they got hot.

It's the ability to be mobile that matters in this case. I propose that if you will see the pattern emerge if you create 2 new sample groups. For the second set, put them both in the shade. In one shade group, allow them just enough room to roll around in mud, but make that as little room as is necessary for that action. In the other group, allow them no mud at all, yet give them a large pen. At this point you'll see more clearly that "able to move around" is what is actually causing the increased happiness (or decreased depression...) and that for those hogs in the sun, the mud merely facilitates this. Given their druthers (ie, in a shade where they don't need to get muddy) they'd actually prefer to be clean.

That could be tested with a 5th group that has a pen 4 times larger than normal, half in the mud, half dry, half in the sun, half in the shade, such that it makes quarters. I suspect you'll tend to find the hogs in the shaded, dry area...which will in the end be the more accurate test of what they prefer ;)

PS - if you had any hogs at all that "radiate[d] contentment" then wow - that's major, considering the extreme prevalence of depression among swine at farms.

PSS - I had hogs as well when I was younger, as did several generations of my family before me (I was the first generation of my father's line to not actually grow up on a farm).

Re:Proverbs come to mind...

[dAzED1]

true, but that again means mud merely facilitates the mitigation of a problem, and not that rolling in mud is done for the purpose of mud-rolling in and of itself. Which you seem to be suggesting, but I'm just trying (for whatever reason) to make clear.

Re:Proverbs come to mind...

[camperdave]

The long pig is generally a clean animal too. However, every once in a while on hot summer days long pig young will find a pit of mud to enjoy. They have been known to make structures out of the mud. The adult of the species will indulge occasionally as well (generally only wading through it or squeezing it through the digits of their fore-paws). However small social groups of adult or adolescent long pig will actually play in the mud if one of their number accidentally falls in. This behaviour is more likely if the long pig has been consuming the juice of fermented berries.

Re:Proverbs come to mind...

[Walter Wart]

The hog enjoys the wrestling, not the mud

Re:Proverbs come to mind...

[Walter Wart]

Wild swine like warthogs, bush pigs, Visayan warty pigs and European wild boars have all been observed wallowing when it's hot out. So do cattle and elephants.

Re:Proverbs come to mind...

[Larryish]

A safer way to put it is like so:

Never try to teach a pig to sing. It is a waste of time, and it annoys the pig.

Re:Proverbs come to mind...

[Anonymous Coward]

Making a silk purse out of a sow's ear

If you want a real religious analogy, how about the Book of Job: Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and effectively gave him a science quiz that any high-school student could pass today, (Verse 35: "Actually, God, not only do I undertand Earth's hydrological cycle, but I happen to have a Tesla coil right here on my desk!") but would have been pretty tough 4000 years ago.

The point being that it wouldn't be hard for a physicist to update that story using today's modern mysteries. "Yo, Anonymous Coward, where do you get off telling Me how to run My universe? I mean, dude, where the hell were you when I made physics out of which the Higgs Boson came into existence (or didn't, since this AC, speaking on God's behalf, doesn't know the answer yet :) You hairless apes have at least figured out that you are hairless apes, but you still haven't even figured out gravity yet!"

Re:Proverbs come to mind...

[Alsee]

hogs are known to be extremely depressed at hog farms.

That's why I feed them Prozac everyday.

It's also why I came up with the saying "A BLT a day keeps the psychiatrist away".

-

Re:Proverbs come to mind...

[Red Flayer]

PS - if you had any hogs at all that "radiate[d] contentment" then wow - that's major, considering the extreme prevalence of depression among swine at farms.

We weren't a swine farm, we were a small farm with a couple dozen sheep, a few goats, up to a dozen hogs at times, a mess of chickens, and random other animals when someone wanted to (geese, emus, llamas, etc). The hog enclosures were pretty large, included about an acre of woods for them to root around in... I think that, and the attention they got from my brothers and me, made a big difference.

Worst rap video ever

[mwvdlee]

I prefer "chocolate rain" over this amateur crap any day.
Yes.
I do.

Jobs...

[Anonymous Coward]

Fucking Jobs, how do they work?

Re:Jobs...

[dmacleod808]

Prostitution comes to mind... I think it is a pretty standard transaction.

Re:Jobs...

[Walter Wart]

Ballmer "The Other White Steve" wants to know how it's done.

Fucking magnets, how do they work?

[electrogeist]

It's not a Miracle?

Re:Fucking magnets, how do they work?

[bonch]

Surprisingly, most of the fans seemed to enjoy the science lesson, but representatives of the band didn't seem to think it was funny.

What's surprising about that? ICP is completely tongue-in-cheek. They're the KISS of rap. Almost all their lyrics are totally facetious, and I've never really gotten the blind hatred toward them (which they love and use for marketing, by the way).

One of the members said this video was intentional and that they have a movie coming out just in time. I think they know exactly what they're doing.

Re:Fucking magnets, how do they work?

[logjon]

Exactly. What's more likely here, that these two grown adults actually believe the looney shit they're saying, or that they're doing it for the lulz?

Re:Fucking magnets, how do they work?

[AvitarX]

Didn't one of them say after a school shooting something along the lines of:

I where fucking clown make-up, I'm sorry I was taken seriously, but that should be a hint

Re:Fucking magnets, how do they work?

[JavaBasedOS]

No. It isn't. Also, Santa Claus and the tooth fairy died when they collided in mid-air, and remember last year's rabbit stew? Yeah, that was the Easter bunny.

Re:Fucking magnets, how do they work?

[jeek]

I saw them just after Columbine, the quote I remember from J on-stage was: "If those two had been juggalos, they would have gotten the whole damn school."

Snarkified

[cosm]

I think the reason Miracles was so infamous is due to a couple factors, as follows,

A. Many people hate ICP.
B. Many people are on the internet.
C. ICP made a video metaphorically referring to some phenomenal (yet understandable) facts of nature (albeit explainable, to an extent) as miracles.
D. Said intertards took them literally, espousing their hate on a fantastical new platform.
E. Or it was an epic trolling, and 2,000,000+ got got.

Point to take away: people like to criticize, act snarky, and show disdain towards those they dislike. ICP is no different. The real miracle is that 2,000,000 cumulatively made fun of about an ICP video.

And as an aside, I highly doubt many of the critics of that video on the net could fully understand electromagnetism, such as the fact that relativistic transformations of transverse EM waves can swap the E & M field, for they are two sides of the same coin depending on the Lorenz transformation, or perhaps give a full analysis of Lenz's law and its implications.

Re:Snarkified

[Lord Ender]

Just because we have the vocabulary to describe something does not mean we "understand" it.

Re:Snarkified

[DJLuc1d]

And as an aside, I highly doubt many of the critics of that video on the net could fully understand electromagnetism, such as the fact that relativistic transformations of transverse EM waves can swap the E & M field, for they are two sides of the same coin depending on the Lorenz transformation, or perhaps give a full analysis of Lenz's law and its implications.

While that might be true there is this thing called 'google' and I'm told it can help you find information, rather than be content in releasing a song where you espouse idiocy and insult the very people who uncovered the answer to your query. I believe 'Violent murder-dick' or whatever his name is accused 'scientists' of some sort of deception, rather than 'googling magnets'

Re:Snarkified

[nametaken]

The noise over Miracles wasn't about internet trolls getting uppity just for fun (though it is fun). These guys didn't say, "hey these things are amazing" when they called them miracles. They suggested that these various natural things were no less than god's direct intervention in the physical world and implied that they couldn't be satisfactorily explained by science. Then they said they don't want to hear from any scientists about any of these subjects because, "[those] motherfuckers lyin'". Yeah, scientists of the world are part of a giant conspiracy to lie about where rainbows come from... fuckwits.

That's not simple awe for amazing things, that's straight-up mental retardation painted in makeup to match. Oh and I almost forgot... yes, they're some of the shittiest rappers in history.

But yes, this assumes it wasn't an intentional showboat of unbelievable stupidity on their part to get some attention for careers that went down the toilet over 10 years ago. If that's the case, then shame on them for misleading the young trash of America down the science-hater path so they can desperately try to make their next mortgage payment.

Re:Snarkified

[Red Flayer]

That vocabulary we have to describe something (especially the "how" of something) means different things to different people. To those who do understand the vocabulary, the words have real meaning and do impart understanding. To others, the words are simply labels, or even worse -- an avenue of misunderstanding.

This is why words are both powerful and dangerous.

Re:Snarkified

[syntaxeater]

I have 8 designers; all wanting our website to be more semantic, that disagree with you.

Re:Snarkified

[sumdumass]

Well, as long as your attempting to quote the l;lyrics to prove your point, lets put some more in there to make that point valid.

Lets see, the song starts off with :If magic is all we've ever know
Then it's easy to miss what really goes on

SO what do you suppose that means and how does it put the rest of the song- more specifically your point into context?

But wait, the song goes on and says But I've seen miracles in every way
And I see miracles everyday;
It lists some shit perceived as miracles and in that list it includes : UFOs, the pyramids, Everything you believed in as kids. It goes on to end the verse with: And music is magic, pure and clean You can feel it and hear it but it can't be seen.

How does that put what you cited into context? I mean they lists things that are obviously man made, pyramids, music, and things that are works of the imagination, UFOs (because it's no longer a UFO once it's been identified) and the things you believed as kids. So what do you think they are attempting to say here? and how does that reconcile with your comment?

Or is it that they insulted some precious belief by making some stupid statement in the middle of other stupid statements and you are now all offended like the church lady or something. Don't take one or two lines out of context with the rest of the song.

Re:Snarkified

[Anonymous Coward]

In the enhanced context the parent provides, the ICP are essentially glorifying remaining ignorant on purpose. Just to make this clear, let's consider what the parent states:

Lets see, the song starts off with: "If magic is all we've ever know
Then it's easy to miss what really goes on."

This and many of the choice lyrics of the song reflect that someone should take the time to look at these things and marvel at being alive; it's a wonderful state to be in. This message by itself is healthy and positive.

However, taking the grandparent into account:

Then they said they don't want to hear from any scientists about any of these subjects because, "[those] motherfuckers lyin'".

The lyrics are clear, and do show that ICP is anti-science in this respect. It is actually pretty obvious that, rather than just telling us to observe everything with appreciation, they are telling us to do so by completely ignoring our baseline understanding; that these feelings are enhanced by being completely ignorant to how these things work. They want to stare and say "wooooooooaaaah duuuuuuuuude", more or less, and invite you into their specific religious/musical cult to do so.

Fucking magnets, how do they work?
And I don't wanna talk to a scientist
Y'all motherfuckers lying, and getting me pissed.
[...]
The Dark Carnival is your invitation
To witness that without explanation

Without explanation indeed. Never mind that I am just pressing buttons to send electrons hurtling at unbelievable speeds through a complicated network of silicon and copper and machinery to post a message about some rap song I never would have heard of otherwise.

I fed a fish to a pelican at Frisco bay
It tried to eat my cell phone, he ran away

And.... checkmate.

Re:Snarkified

[thrawn_aj]

Just because pop sci uses a common vocabulary to describe the actual science (which requires heavy math to truly "understand") doesn't mean that that vocabulary is the entirety of the scientific gestalt. In fact, it is merely the tip of the iceberg. Of course, there are fields where this is actually the case (the pop sci version is approximately equal to the actual version). The hard sciences (called "hard" for that very reason) are definitely not like that. This is what makes some online boards so amusing to lurk in (not /.). There are so many armchair physicists who labor under the delusion that what they read in the latest popsci book is the whole story and that creating a new theory is as simple as pulling some neat idea out of your ass. I could show you emails that we get (on a near-monthly basis) from geniuses who have written epic manuscripts (with TeX and everything) conclusively proving that the earth will soon be colliding with hell.

All that aside, putting "understand" in quotes (like you and I both did) begs the question - "how do we define 'true' understanding?" No absolutes there but I think a good working rule for scientific explanations is as follows. A theory must explain the phenomenon in terms of simpler phenomena (recursively down to a very small set of similarly "explained phenomena" that can then be taken to be the new frontier (extensions to the Standard model of particle physics is a good example here). It must also predict new phenomena that can at least in principle be observed. The theory is then accepted on a provisional basis (if it satisfies rule 1) until rule 2 can be checked, at which it is either revised or promoted to a physical law. You can imagine extending this with minor changes to the other sciences. Some are still in their infancy (or deal with such complicated structures - societies, global economies, etc.) that it may take a long time before we can say that we "truly understand" how those things work (in the context of my working rules above). Give it time.

This is what is usually missing from mystical musings on understanding - a practical way to gauge that understanding.

Re:Snarkified

[thrawn_aj]

Small addendum:

This by the way is why it is somewhat meaningless to refer to "science" when praising or critiquing it. It's like referring to "school" when discussing curricular issues - there are different grades and different levels of competence even within the same grade.

Re:Snarkified

[Mechanik]

The noise over Miracles wasn't about internet trolls getting uppity just for fun (though it is fun). These guys didn't say, "hey these things are amazing" when they called them miracles. They suggested that these various natural things were no less than god's direct intervention in the physical world and implied that they couldn't be satisfactorily explained by science. Then they said they don't want to hear from any scientists about any of these subjects because, "[those] motherfuckers lyin'". Yeah, scientists of the world are part of a giant conspiracy to lie about where rainbows come from... fuckwits.

Anyone that has listened to ICP for any reasonable length of time knows that their songs are meant to be tongue in cheek, and this one is no different.

If you take all their songs as literally as the critics are taking this one, then you'd actually believe they've murdered half the planet for little reason other than their own amusement, because that's primarily what their songs are about. I will go out on a limb and say that if all their songs were true, they'd be on Death Row by now.

Miracles just tries to send a message that there are wonders all around us that we all take for granted. It does it in a tongue in cheek way. It wouldn't be an ICP song if it didn't. Get over it.

Seriously, next you people are going to tell me that Weird Al really bashed in the head of "good old Mister Fender", because he sang about it. Get real.

Re:Snarkified

[Lord Ender]

I think the point is that the fundamental forces are getting to the point in physics where things can't necessarily entirely be explained in terms of simpler phenomenon.

Also, look up what "begs the question" means.

Re:Snarkified

[thrawn_aj]

Also, look up what "begs the question" means.

My bad. That's obviously not the correct usage.

I think the point is that the fundamental forces are getting to the point in physics where things can't necessarily entirely be explained in terms of simpler phenomenon.

Still far from that point. As I said, give it time. And anyway, that's a digression. The point was simply to be more aware of what the word "understanding" means in this context before saying that we don't have a "true understanding" of something. What would qualify as true understanding anyway? In other words (and the following is the only thing I need have written), if you think that explanation A doesn't give a "true understanding" of phenomenon X, what qualities should explanation B have in order to qualify? Until this question is addressed (at least as a working rule), the point is moot. My point was that in the physical sciences, such working rules do exist (and I attempted, to a first approximation, to state those rules). If, as you say, fundamental physics is getting to a point where our working rule is no longer ... working (not true yet but it probably will happen at some point), well that's fine. The best minds are on the job. I'm fairly confident they'll find a replacement (that still doesn't wimp out). Also, I wanted to point out that when you wrote

Just because we have the vocabulary to describe something does not mean we "understand" it.

you were replying to GP, who was talking about electromagnetism, which is extremely well understood (at a number of levels). This is hardly a case of merely having the vocabulary to describe something. That was GP's point when he/she mentioned the deeper connections of E&M to relativity and so on.

Re:Snarkified

[afxgrin]

Anyone that listens to recorded music, including ICP fans, depend on people who understand magnets.

Now magnetic monopoles ... that's a whole different game.

I'm curious as to what triggered this attack on scientists. Something has to be up... I'm kind of surprised ICP is lashing out like this. I'm thinking it's from the shots scientists have been taking on their belief of God.

Re:Snarkified

[Anonymous Coward]

Bingo. These guys used to be kinda funny. Not great rappers, but some of their lyrics really did genuinely give me a laugh or at least a chuckle. They were fine when they were supposed to be two characters that got up there, danced around, told stupid stories, and made people laugh. It was all in good fun and entertainment.

Then they pumped out music echoing fundamentalist Christian vehemently anti-science and logic views, and tried to sell the magical bullshit stories as incontrovertible fact to fans who are quite often disenfranchised kids that really need somebody to be a good example. Not people telling them "Don't trust the guys that built the computers that allow us to pump this bullshit in to your ears". FSM help us all.

If they're trolling, a lot of their fans won't know it. They'll just eat it up, generating more willful ignorance and anti-intellectual hate. When you influence the minds of that many people that strongly, you really should behave more responsibly. Whether they seriously believe what they say or they're trolling, they're doing real damage with the influence that they have.

Re:Snarkified

[RichiH]

And in other songs, they directly refer to there being a total of six ICP albums(called cards/jokers), after which the world ends.

One album (I think it was #4 or #5) even has artwork depicting the coming of the six album/card.

While you interpret that literally and work up another nerd rage, I suggest listen to all their lyrics, some of which are quite direct and biting social commentaries.

The moral of the story? People don't always mean what they say.

In any case, this has motivated me to dig up my old ICP CDs. I had forgotten about them for _years_. Not being in the US I have not been exposed to what seems to be a veritable slapfest.

Re:Snarkified

[RichiH]

The other moral? Don't rewrite your initial comment extensively, especially now that Slashcode has once again activated the 'tiny text input field' feature in the text mode of /. which makes reading more than half a sentence at once ackward.

If you do, grammar will suffer and you look like a moron.

OTOH, it's fun to appear as one in the context of this discussion :)

Re:Snarkified

[Lord Ender]

Electromagnetism is extremely well-described. There certainly unanswered questions about it and other fundamental forces, though. Which means the definition of the term "understand" starts to matter.

Re:Snarkified

[thrawn_aj]

Electromagnetism is extremely well-described. There certainly unanswered questions about it and other fundamental forces, though. Which means the definition of the term "understand" starts to matter.

Then we agree :p

The point was simply to be more aware of what the word "understanding" means in this context before saying that we don't have a "true understanding" of something. What would qualify as true understanding anyway?

Willful ignorance abounds

[bmo]

Some are jugaloos...

Some are jugalettes...

Some are creationists.

--
BMO

Re:Willful ignorance abounds

[operagost]

Some are Slashdot posters.

Re:Willful ignorance abounds

[bmo]

Whether a Jugaloo, Jugalette or a Creationist, the attitude is precisely the same. Don't bother learning about the science, it's just all "miracles."

--
BMO

ICP

[IMightB]

Is a band for idiots, morons and the wilfully ignorant. I met Violent J at a Station promo back ~95/96 in the Toledo area. Just a complete dick. Their music is crap. Their fans are worse. They are the only band that would be known in an Idiocracy style world.

Ignorance.

[Xoltri]

How ignorant to you have to be to be proud of your ignorance?

Re:Ignorance.

[mujadaddy]

I don't know.

Re:Ignorance.

[couchslug]

"How ignorant to you have to be to be proud of your ignorance?"

That's Ignorance on a Biblical scale.

Re:Ignorance.

[Sir Realist]

Recursively ignorant.

Re:Ignorance.

[Nugoo]

At least as ignorant as I am about the meaning of the word 'juggalo'.

Re:Ignorance.

[Jedi Alec]

How ignorant to you have to be to be proud of your ignorance?

Depends, really. Every last one of us is ignorant about a lot of subjects, and we celebrate that ignorance all the time by espousing that these particular subjects are less important than the ones (we think) we do have knowledge about. Just look around right here on Slashdot ;-)

Re:Ignorance.

[Alsee]

I don't know, and I don't want to know.

-

Re:Ignorance.

[Alsee]

That's Ignorance of Biblical proportions.

What do you mean, "Biblical"?

-

Tactical Mistake

[ianm.phil]

I think this group should skip trying to teach them science, it's a lost cause, and instead provide instruction on birth control and distribute free condoms. Only you can help control the Juggalo population!

Re:Tactical Mistake

[AhabTheArab]

I think this group should skip trying to teach them science, it's a lost cause, and instead provide instruction on birth control and distribute free condoms. Only you can help control the Juggalo population!

That won't help. It's not genetic and it's not a learned behavior. You're either born liking ICP or you're born disliking ICP. Frankly I think you should show a little more tolerance, they can't help it. I'm sure there are some of them that are proud to like ICP, but there are probably some that are ashamed to like ICP - maybe their parents disowned them when they came out.

Re:Tactical Mistake

[Red Flayer]

That won't help. It's not genetic and it's not a learned behavior. You're either born liking ICP or you're born disliking ICP

So if it's not genetic... and it's not learned... and you're born with ICP+ or ICP-...

You're saying that the ICP+/- trait is developed in utero due to either random chance or fetal environment?

Are you saying that children of drug users grow up to be fans of ICP?! If so, that's a pretty powerful disincentive for expectant mothers to do drugs... you may have hit upon a miracular sociological prevention tool... think of the countless lives you have improved and/or saved!

Re:Tactical Mistake

[Anonymous Coward]

Thats a nice idea but lets take it a step farther to make sure it works.

Castration for all involved!

It WOULD improve the world. no doubt about it.

I'm sorry but no

[JoshuaZ]

The original song has the lyrics:

Fucking magnets, how do they work? And I don't wanna talk to a scientist Y'all motherfuckers lying, and getting me pissed

That's unambiguously anti-science. Any attempt to say they weren't being literal is simply stupid. Insane Clown Posse is stupid and supports willful ignorance. Pretending otherwise to try to get a small amount of science education done might help a tiny bit but at the end of the day, let's not kid ourselves about what this crap band stands for. The fact that when the band found out about this event they tried to actively prevent it shows what they really care about. These are the worst sort of ignorant fucktards possible, the sort of ignorant fucktards who not only take pride in their own ignorance but actively prevent other people from trying to educate. The fact that then had their security goons try to take away the camera is simply one more aspect of how absolutely despicable ICP is.

Re:I'm sorry but no

[Anonymous Coward]

Considering past songs they've done have been about killing people and necrophilia (Look up "Cemetary Girl"), I'm pretty sure only an idiot would take them literally.

That being said, they long ago ceased to be amusing in any way.

Re:I'm sorry but no

[Stachybotris]

Undoubtedly. Also, forget not that ICP / Psychopath Records has a huge marketing thing (and their own YouTube channel) where they sell literally hundreds, if not thousands, of ICP-related crap products to the Juggalo crowd. It's all about the money, and nothing more. If their fans could be educated to the point that they saw that, well, ICP would be out of a career.

Re:I'm sorry but no

[Anachragnome]

"The original song has the lyrics:

Fucking magnets, how do they work? And I don't wanna talk to a scientist Y'all motherfuckers lying, and getting me pissed

That's unambiguously anti-science."

I agree, but to further your point I would also add that the entire Juggalo "movement" (if you could call it that) is really a not-too-subtle attempt to groom the next generation of gullible, ill-informed, bigoted and unnecessarily prejudicial right-wing, religious conservative voters--voters incapable of smelling a rat when it runs for office.

The last generation has been screwed over too many times and can no longer be relied upon to put people like Bush Jr. in office...for a second term.

Re:I'm sorry but no

[gad_zuki!]

I think its important to realize that the impetus to their ignorance and hate stems from religion.

In an interview regarding this new song one of these clowns revealed that their entire theme, I believe "the dark carnival" is nothing more than Christian proselytization. Yes, ICP is a Christian rock band. How we went from Black Sabbath to Christian clowns insulting scientists is beyond me.

Re:I'm sorry but no

[operagost]

What the heck is religious about ICP? And what do you think the voter turnout of Juggalos is?

Re:I'm sorry but no

[Anonymous Coward]

What the heck is religious about ICP?

They had this long running gimmick of "Joker's Cards" and the "Dark Carnival". The Joker's Cards were a series of six (particular) albums and the "Dark Carnival" was this never-quite-defined theme in their lyrics that killed people but tended to only do it to the despicable types (child molesters, wife beaters, rapists, etc.)

On the last song of the sixth Joker's Card album they revealed that the Dark Carnival was God. So that's where the religion angle comes into play.

Re:I'm sorry but no

[Anonymous Coward]

Unfortunately this shows you have entirely too much knowledge of their albums/songs.

Re:I'm sorry but no

[RichiH]

I have not listened to anything by ICP for years so dunno about current songs, but I distinctly remember several extremely well done social commentaries.

One common theme back then, and I presume today, was that they made fun of people by stating stuff as those people would state them. Guess you fell for that :)

Not knowing any other person who even heard of ICP (I live in Europe) I can't comment on how their fans might interpret these lyrics, though.

Re:I'm sorry but no

[Alsee]

How we went from Black Sabbath to Christian clowns insulting scientists is beyond me.

And what's up with the weird makeup?
They didn't wear weird face crap into the Dover Courtroom and Texas School Board meetings, did they?

-

Re:I'm sorry but no

[JoshuaZ]

Given that they then kicked out the science educators and bragged about it on their twitter feed (see remark below), I'm pretty sure that this wasn't satire on their part.

Re:I'm sorry but no

[RichiH]

Maybe.

Otoh, afaik the context of said educators being thrown out was a concert. I can see why they would not want anyone trying to teach stuff during one of those.

Re:I'm sorry but no

[Anonymous Coward]

ICP is very religious and often brings up the virtues of Christianity. I've seen at least one interview where they said they don't want to shovel a lot of religious talk to their fans, but that they do want to help every Juggalo embrace God eventually.

To their credit I like the idea that they recognize a lot of Biblical talk is a turn off, and that they are mindful that people may accept religious at their own pace.

Christianity is the whole point of their recent music video, "Miracles". It refutes science and and instead attributes things like magnetism and rainbows to divine acts of God.

Funny concept, but dismal execution.

[Anonymous Coward]

It would've helped if the educators didn't seem to be terrified. And if they'd argued more with security. And if they'd spent more time on their signs than a Tea Partier does.

Backlash

[RightSaidFred99]

There's already backlash against ICP backlash? Jesus Christ, somebody needs to start a backlash monitoring service.

When backlash against the backlash against ICP backlash starts, please let me know I think that's probably when I'll jump in.

Everything you wanted to know about Juggalos

[axl917]

but were afraid to ask can be found at ED; http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Juggalo

Re:Everything you wanted to know about Juggalos

[Nocturnal Deviant]

my god that was an awesome read.

Re:Everything you wanted to know about Juggalos

[steelfood]

A little NSFW tag would've helped. There's no nudity, but there is racist content in there that might not sit well with passersby.

CD collection

[jollyreaper]

Someone asked me if I had ICP. I said only if it's cold out.

Re:CD collection

[Sulphur]

Inter-Cranial Pressure or Intermittent Catheterization Procedure?

LoadingReadyRun already did something like this

[Athanasius]

A quick search through visible comments (sorry I couldn't be arsed to click enough times to load them) all showed no mention of 'Loading', so I assume no yet mentioned the awesome LoadingReadyRun's rebuttal:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/loadingreadyrun/1629-Scientists-Rebuttal-to-ICP

Re:LoadingReadyRun already did something like this

[Anonymous Coward]

That video is bad and you should feel bad for liking it.

Do you know how magnets work ?

[bugs2squash]

I mean I gather it has something to do with quantum spin and relativity and symmetry breaking and virtual gauge boson force-carriers. But I'm somewhat uncertain on the details (and I don't mean in a Heisenberg way). Perhaps the band is just voicing their frustration that there seem to be so few entry level texts that cover the subject in lay terms.

Re:Do you know how magnets work ?

[Anonymous Coward]

ROFLMAO!!! This is gold "so few entry level texts that cover the subject in lay terms"

Re:Do you know how magnets work ?

[seandiggity]

http://www.howmagnetswork.com/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferromagnetism#Explanation

...and so on. Doesn't seem to me that there's not enough entry-level material out there.

Re:Do you know how magnets work ?

[bugs2squash]

You make a good point, Wikipedia is a good reference. But the articles you happened to pick (I got lucky I guess) don't mention how magnets work. The first pretty much says what magnets do, and the second how little magnets inside the material organize.

It was shocking to me to find out how magnets work (to the extent that I understand them, which is limited) and I suspect that only a small percentage of the general population have any clue how such familiar things work and what a tangible example of relativity in action they provide. I was shocked because I had thought I had a pretty good idea about them until I read more in preparation for a presentation I was to make.

"Accessible" references are not readily available, the density of graduate-level textbooks I have had to wade through to grasp what little I know about the subject is tough going.

Re:Do you know how magnets work ?

[Anonymous Coward]

FWIW - I think using the word "how" tends to muddy the issue. I think knowledge of how they work is pretty widespread. What is significantly less widely known is [i]why[/i] they work. Same thing with gravity.

Oh Nerds

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh Nerds, your enthusiasm still cannot hide your social awkwardness, in fact it only heightens it. However, you are still nth times less awkward then a Juggalo.

They're smarter than you think

[Anonymous Coward]

They've discovered, as many groups have, that the more irresponsible and more stupid and more worthless you can be, the harder the government will try to carry you along.

I'll bet these retards earn a comfortable living on social welfare.

Re:They're smarter than you think

[kristjansson]

No, they get freaking rich off of welfare recipients...

ICP is ..

[kuzb]

...music for idiots, by idiots.

Re:ICP is ..

[1s44c]

So is the whole music industry. Have you actually heard what has been in the charts for the last 10 years? Mostly bland recycled nonsense marketed at children or rap music about guns and money.

It all sucks.

I am highly offended

[riker1384]

Am I the only one who read this headline as a racist slur?

Re:I am highly offended

[gregthebunny]

Yes. "Juggalos" (as they ignorantly like to be called) are fans of ICP. There is no racism involved.

Re:I am highly offended

[1s44c]

Say what you like about ICP but one thing they have never been is racist.

Half their songs are about racists getting killed in amusing ways.

Re:I am highly offended

[Anonymous Coward]

If your vocabulary wasn't so niggardly you would be able to differentiate between words deemed racist and similar words.

Further update

[JoshuaZ]

If there were any doubts about ICP's attitude on this matter, one of the ICP members brags about how they had their security get rid of the scientists on their twitter feed http://twitter.com/bigviolentj/status/15541954268

Corp, Dougie & Sugar Slam ran those scientist haters off and we had a fuckin' amazing ass concert. 2500 Los rocked the building's foundation

In almost any other context I would have thought that the phrase "scientist haters" would mean people who hate scientists, not scientists who are haters. Ah well.

Re:Further update

[danmart1]

Unfortunately, expressing thoughts and feelings using proper, our even adequate, english is a challenge for some. Also, since when is 2500 people enough to brag about? I used to play in a cover band in a piddly-ass town and I'm fairly certain we had more people than that on one our two occasions.

Re:Further update

[adolf]

Unfortunately, expressing thoughts and feelings using proper, our even adequate, english is a challenge for some.

Indeed:

I used to play in a cover band in a piddly-ass town and I'm fairly certain we had more people than that on one our two occasions.

Thanks for the examples!.

Poe's Law

[Anonymous Coward]

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Poe's_Law

(also, YHBT)

but i mean really,

[nimbius]

..did anyone ever figure out how magnets work? im losing sleep over this one.

Shee-yit

[Anonymous Coward]

74 comments and none said anything about JIGABOOS ??!!!!11/ONE!/?

This place is totally going to the dogs.

It'S sO sPiRiTuAl, AlL tHeSe mIrAcLeS aNd ShIt.

[terminallyCapricious]

No No BrO, i DoN't WaNnA kNoW, dOn'T eVeN tElL mE.
kNoWiNg ShIt JuSt StEaLs Up AlL tHe FuCkIn MaGiC fRoM mY mIrAcLeS lIkE a MoThErFuCkIn ThIeF.
AnD tHaT aIn'T cOoL.

Re:It'S sO sPiRiTuAl, AlL tHeSe mIrAcLeS aNd ShIt.

[harrytuttle777]

This Rocks

Re:It'S sO sPiRiTuAl, AlL tHeSe mIrAcLeS aNd ShIt.

[Alex Belits]

Trolls? In my Slashdot?

Can't we all just get along

[Anonymous Coward]

When will people realize that religion and science are not mutually exclusive. Einstein had something famous to say about this. Seriously Religion was started to explain the 'unexplainable'. Just like science. Now that we have science does not mean we have to forsake religion. The more you learn about science, the more miraculous creation becomes. This is pretty much the point of the song I believe. I really do not know why there exists this animosity.

We should all be natural philosophers.

Re:Can't we all just get along

[Erie Ed]

except for the fact that in a scientific environment things can be proven over and over again to be true...I don't see that happening with religion.

Re:Can't we all just get along

[Hognoxious]

When will people realize that religion and science are not mutually exclusive. Einstein had something famous to say about this.

He said "God does not play dice", and he was wrong.

The more you learn about science, the more miraculous creation becomes.

Somebody bring me a new woowoometer!

We should all be natural philosophers.

We should wear wigs and write in Latin with feathers?

Natural philosophy is just ye olde nayme for science.

Not surprising

[TheLink]

Maybe many of the ICP fans are familiar with the "Diet coke and Mentos" guys:

http://www.eepybird.com/about/

Related

[Naznarreb]

Related from Cracked.com http://www.cracked.com/blog/learn-your-motherfuckin-science-with-the-icp/

Oblig. Fish Called Wanda

[Anonymous Coward]

Wanda: Oh, right! To call you stupid would be an insult to stupid people! I've known sheep that could outwit you. I've worn dresses with higher IQs. But you think you're an intellectual, don't you, ape?

Otto West: Apes don't read philosophy.

Wanda: YES THEY DO, OTTO. They just don't understand it!

Now let me correct you on a couple of things, OK? Aristotle was not Belgian. The central message of Buddhism is not "Every man for himself." And the London Underground is not a political movement. Those are all mistakes, Otto. I looked them up.

They are clowns...

[lupinstel]

Some of you people really hold clowns up to a really high standard. Seriously, these are rappers who dress as clowns and have weird carnival themed shows. My guess is that they are fucking with you, not dictating their philosophical manifesto over youtube.

I'm an Insane Clown, Yo!

[Alsee]

Crayons are magic.
All those fuckin' colors.
How do they work?
And don' be givin' me any
of that lyin' science shit.

-

The only thing I have to say...

[the_hellspawn]

to all the posts are: you mad! ><