Apple, AT&T Sued Over iPhone 4 Antennas

bannable writes "Apple has been accused of violation of the Federal Communications Act, three counts of products liability related to negligence, defect in design and breach of implied warranty, intentional and negligent misrepresentation, fraud by concealment, unfair business practices and more. 'The iPhone 4 manifests design and manufacturing defects that were known to Defendants before it was released which were not disclosed to consumers, namely, a connection problem caused by the iPhone 4's antenna configuration that makes it difficult or impossible to maintain a connection to AT&T's network,' the California complaint reads."

Comments

Not surprisingly

[jgagnon]

This will have no affect on Apple's sales.

Re:Not surprisingly

[jgagnon]

I believe you meant grammar skills since "affect" is spelled correctly. :p

Re:Not surprisingly

[Anonymous Coward]

This will not affect Apple's sales, nor will it have any effect on Apple's sales.

Re:Not surprisingly

[jgagnon]

Exactly. In my own defense, I very rarely get this wrong so I can only claim temporary lingual insanity.

Re:Not surprisingly

[Anonymous Coward]

It all depends on the intention of the poster....

Re:Not surprisingly

[Hijacked Public]

Blaming the lack of a physical keyboard would've made +5 Informative a certainty.

Re:Not surprisingly

[Anonymous Coward]

Touché

(the AC post timer finally expired) :)

Re:Not surprisingly

[delinear]

Yeah, it might be this guy.

Re:Not surprisingly

[Jake Griffin]

I think the Plaintiffs need to work on their grammar skills too. From the image on the site: "..., and VINNY CURBELO, on behalf of themselves and all others who are similarly situation." (emphasis mine)

Re:Not surprisingly

[pak9rabid]

This will have no affect on Apple's sales.

But it probably will on it's stock price..

Re:Not surprisingly

[digitig]

But "Affect" has got nounal senses so it is gramattical in that context, although I don't think it can be parsed in a way that makes any sense. I therefore suggest that the error is neither a spelling nor a grammar error but is a rather a semantic error.

Re:Not surprisingly

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not so sure. Lets review the current and likely events to follow. First, hoards of zombie Apple fanatics trash their six month old iphone so they can get the brand new iphone4. and while they're at it, just pick up an ipad and an ipod touch and then take them home and put all the same applications on them (all while holding arms outstretched, drooling and moaning). Second, the zombie apple nation realized they are only getting 2 bars of reception when their friend with the droid is getting 4 bars. Third, zombie nation files numbers frivolous lawsuits. Fourth, these lawsuits merge into one giant class action lawsuit of which all the zombie nation attends. Fifth, Slashdoters read this, finally get fed up with the zombie nation and open a self proclaimed zombie hunting season down at the courthouse. Finally, this results in a decrease in zombies, which means less zombies to purchase iphones. I believe this reasoning will hold up in court.

Re:Not surprisingly

[GNUALMAFUERTE]

http://www.xckd.com/326/

Re:Not surprisingly

[Anonymous Coward]

But will it have an effect?

Re:Not surprisingly

[Anonymous Coward]

But he *is* using it wrongly there. You can effect (i.e. put into effect, bring about) a solution. But "putting a situation into effect" sounds retarded.

Re:Not surprisingly

[Hognoxious]

It probably will do what on it is stock price?

Re:Not surprisingly

[allseason radial]

Don't you mean "intent"?

Re:Not surprisingly

[tophermeyer]

Whose stock price?

Re:Not surprisingly

[pentrose]

You're cleaver use of "facepalm oil" made me think of my trusty Palm Pre+. It has no antenna problems, I have yet to have a dropped call at all. The card system navigation on the true multitasking WebOS is simply amazing. 16gb provides enough ram for me and it has a very good 3 megapix camera. I am even synchronizing my old Palm Agendus data directly from my PC to the phone and using the data to dial directly when on the road or at a restaurant with Wifi and Skype. The wonderful little thing even acts a a router with up to five computers. So we can link up 5 computers at a remote location and they can from an Intranet with drag and drop to each other's machine. I browse my calendar while talking on a headset to a client. Any program that will run on the Web runs on the phone. This is only a part of it. Who needs a crappy Iphone? People should just throw it in the garbage and start over, they would fall in love with something like the Pre!

Re:Not surprisingly

[rolfwind]

I just attached iPad accessory keyboard to the iPhone:
http://images.intomobile.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/iphone-ipad-keyboard-dock-536x357.jpg

It looks surprisingly chic and I get compliments all the time since that is how I always carry my phone now. I now laugh at people carrying androids with those slide-out keyboards!

Re:Not surprisingly

[ae1294]

We don't stock apples...

Re:Not surprisingly

[ae1294]

Fifth, Slashdoters read this, finally get fed up with the zombie nation and open a self proclaimed zombie hunting season down at the courthouse.

Slashdoters never leave the basement so any hunting proclamation is meaningless..

Re:Not surprisingly

[Anonymous Coward]

Third base!

Re:Not surprisingly

[Anonymous Coward]

Even so, OP used it wrongly.

Before everyone cheers (or jeers)

[elrous0]

A lot of times (I suspect most of the time) these sorts of class-action lawsuits are instigated by not just the usual suspects (greedy lawyers), but also with the support of the companies themselves. The lawyers get a big payday. The company gets shielded from any further individual lawsuits. And the consumers get stripped of their right to sue individually, for the "settlement" of a "5% off your next purchase" coupon.

In other words, when you hear "class-action lawsuit," don't think "Yeah, we're sticking it to the big guys!" Think "No, they're sticking it to *YOU*."

Re:Before everyone cheers (or jeers)

[Pojut]

"Just don't file the lawsuit that way." -Steve Jobs, paraphrased

Re:Before everyone cheers (or jeers)

[Anonymous Coward]

Just don't take these posts that way.

Re:Before everyone cheers (or jeers)

[mea37]

You do know there's an easy way not to be stripped of your right to file an individual lawsuit, right?

Apple will only be shielded from further suits in which the plaintif failed to opt out of the class action.

Re:Before everyone cheers (or jeers)

[jgagnon]

These sorts of demands never seem to work. Unless you're trying to get people to post it more... :p

Re:Before everyone cheers (or jeers)

[jgagnon]

In a better world, that should be "Apple will not be shielded from further suits in which the plaintif failed to opt in to the class action."

Re:Before everyone cheers (or jeers)

[Sockatume]

They're only shielded from further lawsuits by the members of the class, aren't they?

Re:Before everyone cheers (or jeers)

[blackraven14250]

...or if he's trying to get the mod he's attributing to everyone else.

Re:Before everyone cheers (or jeers)

[Anonymous Coward]

Congrats on earning yourself a redundant mod! Golfclap! Now back to planning my next "just don't...that way" joke.

Re:Before everyone cheers (or jeers)

[Animaether]

Yes, but everybody is part of the class -unless- they opt out. That means that if they just happen to never even hear about the class action for them to opt out.. guess what? tough luck.

Re:Before everyone cheers (or jeers)

[elrous0]

Yes, so all the plaintiffs who happen to read the "You can opt-out" notice on page 32C of the New York Times classified section, then send a letter and file notarized copies of forms 339-A and 22-4D to the court--yes, all 3 of those people will still have a right to sue.

Re:Before everyone cheers (or jeers)

[Anonymous Coward]

You can opt out of a class action lawsuit and retain your right to sue them as an individual so there's not a huge benefit to these companies to pay lawyers millions unless the defect is very serious.

I could see a car company doing it, but not Apple.

Re:Before everyone cheers (or jeers)

[jgagnon]

That too.

Re:Before everyone cheers (or jeers)

[ICLKennyG]

People don't even uncheck a box when it says "It's OK to contact me periodically(6 times a day)" Less than 10% change default states whether they are opt-in or opt-out.

The only exception is the Do-Not-Call registry

Re:Before everyone cheers (or jeers)

[Keebler71]

Just don't moderate that way.

Re:Before everyone cheers (or jeers)

[jimbolauski]

A lot of times (I suspect most of the time) these sorts of class-action lawsuits are instigated by not just the usual suspects (greedy lawyers), but also with the support of the companies themselves. The lawyers get a big payday. The company gets shielded from any further individual lawsuits. And the consumers get stripped of their right to sue individually, for the "settlement" of a "5% off your next purchase" coupon.

In other words, when you hear "class-action lawsuit," don't think "Yeah, we're sticking it to the big guys!" Think "No, they're sticking it to *YOU*."

Just because there is a class action lawsuit does not mean you have to join it, you are free to sue them yourself and try to get what you think you are entitled to.

Re:Before everyone cheers (or jeers)

[jav1231]

Exactly. If you're the only person in the filing, you might get something. If there are thousands or millions, enjoy your 35cents.

Re:Before everyone cheers (or jeers)

[Anonymous Coward]

Ok that's it. Starting now, anyone else who posts a "Just don't ... that way" gets modded redundant. Seriously. It's over. And not just in this thread. Forever. Obviously, since I've already posted, someone else will have to do my dirty work this time...

All your "Just don't"'s belong to us!

Make your time!

Re:Before everyone cheers (or jeers)

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe so but I, for one, hope Apple's a** gets keel hauled through court.

Don't get me wrong --- I am NOT anti-Apple --- its just that althought they make some very fine products, they always act so holier than thou. Trying to get them to fess up to a design problem is impossible. It's always the user's fault or it doesn't exist, period.

Also, although the 3rd party apps are great, inhouse Apple software tends to be buggy, bloated, and lacking functionality (er --- they call it elegance).

IMHO

Re:Before everyone cheers (or jeers)

[mea37]

Well, don't let the facts get in the way of a good indignant rant, but in point of fact the members of the class are notified by mail. I typically get one or two such notices each year.

Next you complain that the notices are too long and nobody reads them, and then I point out you don't have to read them becuase you should know that there's always a right to opt out and all you have to do is find the info on how to do so.

If you can't be bothered to do that, it's apparently not that important to you to preserve the right to sue individually... which is probably because you already thought it through and realized your individual damages wouldn't justify the costs you would incur filing an individual action.

That, of course, is exactly why there is such a thing as a class action lawsuit. The concept of class action is not a bad one - the problem is with the settlement structure.

Re:Before everyone cheers (or jeers)

[Hylandr]

Ok that's it. Starting now, anyone else who posts a "Just don't ... that way" gets modded redundant. Seriously. It's over. And not just in this thread. Forever. Obviously, since I've already posted, someone else will have to do my dirty work this time...

*Evil Grin*

Just don't Mod that way...

Because you had a fit that way...

- Dan.

Re:Before everyone cheers (or jeers)

[Anonymous Coward]

Without the shield Apple would have to discontinue the product and attempt to buy back and crush every one they have sold up to this point.

P.S.
Just an observation, I have no stake in Apple or its continued existence.

Re:Before everyone cheers (or jeers)

[yumyum]

I agree. As an Apple shareholder, I enjoy reading about the pending or settled lawsuits in the proxy materials Apple sends out every year. I don't know if there are any stats freely available, but I bet that most large companies have one or more active lawsuits against them. And I would be that the more popular the company (media attention, stock price), the more likely they are to have the lawsuits.

Re:Before everyone cheers (or jeers)

[elrous0]

Point of fact: class actions are *not* required by law (in the U.S. at least) to notify class members by mail and most class-action lawsuits do not notify members this way.

But please, don't let the facts get in the way you YOUR ignorant rant.

Re:Before everyone cheers (or jeers)

[mea37]

In a better world, an opt-in system wouldn't be a sure way to ensure that a class action never moved forward. Don't get me wrong, with the flaws in the settlement structure typically associated with a class action, I would sympathize if you argue that class actions shouldn't move forward; but if that's your position, just say so instead of dreaming up changes to the system that would effectively sabotage it.

In a better world, we wouldn't need class actions anyway because it would be economically feasible for each wronged individual to get individually compensated in a way that's actually meaningful and proportional to the harm done to that individual.

But we're in this world, and what I'd like to see is a system of class actions that are opt-out, but: (1) with recourse for class members who claim they weren't properly notified of the action; (2) with a prohibition on over-inflated fees to the attourneys; and (3) with a prohibition on the use of coupons or store credit to settle with the individuals in the class.

Re:Before everyone cheers (or jeers)

[elrous0]

In the U.S. you *automatically* join a class action lawsuit whether you want to or not. You have to specifically opt-*out* of the lawsuit if you are a "member." And if you happen to not hear about it (and a notice can be as little as a small ad in a newspaper), then oops, you've just given up your right to sue without even being aware of it.

Re:Before everyone cheers (or jeers)

[joeyblades]

Consumers are not stripped of their right to sue. They voluntarily give up those rights.

Some class action settlements do have significant payouts.

Re:Before everyone cheers (or jeers)

[Arthur Grumbine]

Ok that's it. Starting now, anyone else who posts a "Just don't ... that way" gets modded redundant. Seriously. It's over. And not just in this thread. Forever.

Lighten up, Steve.

Re:Before everyone cheers (or jeers)

[mea37]

If you're going to turn someone's phrasing back on them, try reading carefully enough to know what they said; or are you too stupid to know the difference between "indignant" and "ignorant"?

In any event, feel free to point out a class action where the only notice was buried in the NY Times classifieds. Or were you just full of crap? That the law doesn't prescribe mail as the only means of notice, does not change the fact that classes are notified by mail.

Re:Before everyone cheers (or jeers)

[Anonymous Coward]

"Just don't mod it that way." Steve Jobs

Re:Before everyone cheers (or jeers)

[yeshuawatso]

We need a Do-Not-Contact-Me-Periodically registry and maybe my credit card company will stop stuffing ads with my bill.

Re:Before everyone cheers (or jeers)

[yeshuawatso]

Usually you can find out what lawsuits they may actually impact the business in the quarterly and yearly fillings. They're usually in the very back in that long section of notes from the CFO that people tend not to read. I personally just look for the three sheets and move on. I could care less how many stores you opened, devices you sell, or your tremendous growth out of China. Show me the NI, CF, and BS and I can do the Dupont analysis myself.

Re:Before everyone cheers (or jeers)

[yeshuawatso]

Sorry, I meant quarterly/annual reports, not SEC filings. I'm not sure if Apple produces reports for their shareholders.

Re:Before everyone cheers (or jeers)

[sjonke]

I tend to think this issue is way overblown, but yeah, that's funny.

Re:Before everyone cheers (or jeers)

[intheshelter]

You sound anti-Apple to me. "They always act so holier than thou"? I think it may be your hypersensitivity that is the issue rather than Apple.

As for them fessing up to a design problem. If it is a design issue (still a bit early to be sure) then they need to admit it, give free bumper or a refund. If software fixes it then that is fine too. What they do need to do is communicate better and let people know they are looking into it.

Re:Before everyone cheers (or jeers)

[jgagnon]

My point was that your ability for further litigation should not be determined by you opting out of a class action suit. Instead it should be determined by you opting in.

In other words, no assumption should be made that you desire to feed the machine by automatically opting in and therefore losing further rights to litigate.

I was not attempting to make an opinion one way or the other about class action lawsuits in general or this specific one.

Re:Before everyone cheers (or jeers)

[Hognoxious]

In Korea, only old people hold it that way.

Re:Before everyone cheers (or jeers)

[Hognoxious]

That the law doesn't prescribe mail as the only means of notice, does not change the fact that classes are notified by mail.

It doesn't change the fact that some are. And clearly, it's impossible for them to know the address of everyone affected, so it isn't going to be much good anyway.

One other thing - beware of the leopard.

Re:Before everyone cheers (or jeers)

[Kensai7]

If they file a lawsuit, the blew it.

Re:Before everyone cheers (or jeers)

[kidcharles]

...enjoy your 35 cents.

You mean one dollar and NINE CENTS!

Re:Before everyone cheers (or jeers)

[LurkerXXX]

If you take these posts that way, you blew it.

Re:Before everyone cheers (or jeers)

[erroneus]

Wow. I completely did not know about this. This is an incredibly weaselly way to get out of responsibility and liability. "You can't sue me because I already sued myself" defense? There's something in that which should be illegal and is certainly unethical.

Re:Before everyone cheers (or jeers)

[mea37]

As I've said elsewhere, I would certainly favor a system that gives recourse to class members who claim not to have known about the class.

I think a lot of this is missing the forest for the trees, though. The bottom line is, in every class action I've heard of (certainly including every one where I was included in the class), opting out of the class would only have preserevd the right to bring an individual action that would be more expensive to me than any compensation I could ever hope to be awarded.

The system is screwed up in particularly cynical ways, and in reality today there are attourneys who use the system to exploit both sides; but the fact that the defendent is "shielded" from further individual action by class members is the least of the things to worry about. If the rest of the system were set up correctly, it would be evident that such a shield is a necessary and just provision.

Re:Before everyone cheers (or jeers)

[elashish14]

Well, shouldn't there be a way to prove that the class-action suit didn't accurately represent the people (consumers) who brought the case forward?

Re:Before everyone cheers (or jeers)

[mysidia]

If they go through all the trouble they must intend to....

Re:Before everyone cheers (or jeers)

[Khyber]

"But please, don't let the facts get in the way you YOUR ignorant rant."

Speaking as a CLASS REPRESENTATIVE of a class-action lawsuit, YOU ARE DEAD WRONG and you need to shut up.

Re:Before everyone cheers (or jeers)

[Khyber]

"In the U.S. you *automatically* join a class action lawsuit whether you want to or not"

WRONG. A judge must first decide if the cases presented are similar enough in scope to warrant inclusion into a class-action.

Even then, if you never filed suit or joined the class, you're free to take it into a small-claims court.

Re:Before everyone cheers (or jeers)

[Khyber]

"Exactly. If you're the only person in the filing, you might get something. If there are thousands or millions, enjoy your 35cents."

Wanna know how I know you don't know about class action lawsuits?

I'm getting way more than that and I'm one of those that took EA to court over Spore.

Re:Before everyone cheers (or jeers)

[mysidia]

They need to follow good practices and implement OPT-IN not opt-out. Page 1 of the form should be simple, standardized, have a brief description, and present standardized options, which are easy for the average person to understand and implement.

Only if "OPT IN" is chosen, should case-specific or lawyer-specified forms or instructions be allowed, such addendums must be attachments. A return envelope with pre-paid postage should be a requirement.

And have a rule... if 10% of the class object to the settlement, then the settlement is rejected, and suit must proceed for there to be any award.

Lawyers' fees should be capped to a small percentage of any award. And on any settlement it must be displayed the total amount the company will pay (to all members of the class) as settlement, and the totals of any fees, that were taken out must be shown (including costs and lawyer expenses) which must be shown also

All those that don't opt in to the settlement retain their right to sue, unless they explicitly take action to "apply for their award"

I'm saying, they should have to present every person in the class by mail a form... they can do 3 things...

Option1: Check an 'opt in and agree to this settlement' box, fill out a long form, and submit documentation that they are a class member. If the settlement is approved, they receive that without further paperwork. Their right to sue is only waived if the settlement is actually approved.

Option2: Check an 'opt out' and waive right to sue box. In this case, they consider themselves not harmed by the defendant in regards to the matter before the court. In this case, they receive some payment from the defendant set by statute as compensation for time wasted reading that mailing, such as $1.

Pickers of option2 waive their right to sue, no matter if the settlement is approved or not. If the settlement rejected, and a new one later proposed, all respondants who chose Option2 must be counted as having picked Option2 in all successive settlements. If the prosecution accidentally sends them an additional form, they get the right to pick Option2 again, to get another $1, or receive the settlement in addition to the $1 received the last time.

If 50% or more of the class opt out with opt2, then the action is barred from going forward, dismissed with prejudice, the settlement is disallowed, and the prosecution has to pay all those $1 fees.

Also, for anyone who picked Option2 the first time accidentally mailed a 'settlement form' a second time, and picked Option2 a second time. That second time they chose Option2 must count as if an additional member of the class chose Option2, without increasing the total count of members of the class.

Option3: Check an 'object to settlement box'. In this case, they object to the settlement; their portion of any settlement is witheld. They retain their right to sue individually. They also should get a right to change their mind, in case the rest of their class accepts the settlement. The company is required to place into escrow, the amount it would cost to pay them their portion -- the company only gets it back for respondants that don't opt in within 5 years, or respondants that join another class action suit or take individual action.

Re:Before everyone cheers (or jeers)

[natehoy]

You do know there's an easy way not to be stripped of your right to file an individual lawsuit, right?

Assuming I am made aware of the class action suit, that is true.

Apple will only be shielded from further suits in which the plaintif failed to opt out of the class action.

I should never be considered an interested party in a class action suit unless I have expressed an interest. Failing to respond to a notice I probably never got is not expressing an interest.

Re:Before everyone cheers (or jeers)

[nomadic]

2) with a prohibition on over-inflated fees to the attourneys

Actually the Courts have to approve any class action attorneys fees.

Re:Before everyone cheers (or jeers)

[nomadic]

Speaking as a class action attorney, you're all partially right and partially wrong. As for notice, class notice is an issue decided by the judge. And the main misunderstanding about class actions on slashdot, and what distorts the entire discussion about the subject, is the incorrect assumption that all class actions are consumer "coupon" suits.

Re:Before everyone cheers (or jeers)

[ClosedSource]

You make an interesting point because coupons seem to be the remedy in all the class-action suits that I've been a party to.

Can you estimate what percentage of class actions result in payments of "cold, hard, cash"?

Re:Before everyone cheers (or jeers)

[shadowfaxcrx]

Everything's correct except that class actions don't shield a company from individual lawsuits. Anyone who is eligible for the class (in this case, anyone with an iPhone 4) can choose to remove themselves from the class. If they do, they won't get the settlement (which in this case will probably be 5 bucks, an Apple bumper sticker, and a rubber band to fix the phone) but they can then pursue individual action against the company. And they have a fairly good chance of succeeding if the class action succeeds, since a court has already found Apple to be liable.

Re:Before everyone cheers (or jeers)

[mattack2]

but also with the support of the companies themselves.

[citation needed]

Re:Before everyone cheers (or jeers)

[Achromatic1978]

You sound anti-Apple to me. "They always act so holier than thou"? I think it may be your hypersensitivity that is the issue rather than Apple.

Are you kidding? Case in point, "I'm a Mac, and I'm a PC"... interesting campaign. Started off genuinely funny, innovative, pointed out differences, etc. Since then, it has gone downhill, getting progressively snarkier, nasty, but most importantly, more and more misleading. It is by this that the company chooses to be known, so I'd agree.

Re:Before everyone cheers (or jeers)

[ShnowDoggie]

I like your idea.

Re:Before everyone cheers (or jeers)

[nomadic]

Can you estimate what percentage of class actions result in payments of "cold, hard, cash"?

Not sure if anyone keeps those statistics; the thing is there are plenty of small-scale class actions dealing with local issues, that nobody has ever heard of (and don't necessarily involve cash). For example, I was involved in one where neighborhood residents were seeking injunctive relief against a large property owner to keep them from interfering with their view. And all of the cases I'm involved involve cash (and frequently fairly large amounts). One class action I heard about (and interviewed with the firm handling it) had frequently large payouts for some class members, in excess of a million dollars. For very large-scale consumer actions, where the

A completely uninformed and random guess, I would say the large majority (80%+) of class action lawsuits do not involve coupons as the remedy.

Re:Before everyone cheers (or jeers)

[Animaether]

Well, don't let the facts get in the way of a good indignant rant, but in point of fact the members of the class are notified by mail.

So, wait... how are the class members determined, then? How do they know where they should be sending these mails?

Now, for an iPhone 4, presuming it's activated, I suppose they -can- get the address information if they really wanted to as the address information is tied to it one way or another so that I can be properly billed for the plan (which is tied to the phone for now).

But let's say it's for some random laptop where address information is not required and not even asked. As far as I understand it - and please do correct me if I'm wrong - I -am- a member of the class. So how are they going to be mailing me?

Unless you're saying that you're -not- a member of the class *unless* you either A. get such a mailing or B. 'opt in' (join the class members).

Re:Before everyone cheers (or jeers)

[jav1231]

Good for you. But you're not typical.

LoL

[Anonymous Coward]

hee hee I really wanted to see this.

Good riddance

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry, Steve, "You're holding it wrong" just doesn't cut it.

If your user's can't actually hold your phone, it's your problem, not theirs.

Re:Good riddance

[Anonymous Coward]

I have no hands. Where is my phone?

Re:Good riddance

[Anonymous Coward]

Please. You ARE obviously holding it wrong.
It's easy enough to hold it correctly, as Master Yoda can teach you:

Re:Good riddance

[Anonymusing]

For what it's worth, the Nexus One had similar problems... where's the lawsuit?

Re:Good riddance

[hedwards]

Google lets us have porn on our handsets, so we look the other way. Because Google is cool like that unlike that prude Steve Jobs that suggests that we shouldn't be watching hardcore pornography on the bus.

Re:Good riddance

[e2d2]

You know I see this type of response here all the time and you know what? It's not a legit response. Just because there was no lawsuit for a completely different product does not mean this one is baseless or unfair. Anytime an apple product is shat upon someone has to come out of the woodwork and point out another inferior product, like that makes it all okay. Well, no, it doesn't.

Re:Good riddance

[Anonymous Coward]

The Nexus did not cost 700 times the materials cost.

Re:Good riddance

[Anonymous Coward]

Work hard to get the business of normals, get burnt by their anger at disillusionment.

Re:Good riddance

[TheKidWho]

Huh? Explain yourself troll.

Re:Good riddance

[Anonymous Coward]

They settled with the five people who bought the phone and were left handed. The other twenty people are okay with it.

Re:Good riddance

[Anonymous Coward]

WTF????

Re:Good riddance

[Keebler71]

Did you just imply that the Nexus One is an inferior product? How exactly?

Re:Good riddance

[joh]

Hmm, I still think that Apple just does good old business: Pay money, get product. Google is more like give your land and blood, get shiny digital glass beads, no money needed. I know what I can deal better with. In this case I can deal with it by just not buying an iPhone or giving it back if I already had one.

Once you have all your data in the Google cloud though, it's very hard to get it back should you suddenly realize that Google isn't that cool and you don't like to have your digital life tracked and interconnected and saved in the Brave New World databases.

Re:Good riddance

[Anonymous Coward]

Did you just imply that the Nexus One is an inferior product? How exactly?

Obviously its missing a lawsuit. Duh!

Re:Good riddance

[ICLKennyG]

To be fair, Apple lets you have porn on the iPhone too. They just want to protect you from paying for porn. News flash, there is a lot of free porn on the internet. There is even more 'free' porn if you know where to get it and don't care about copyright infringement.

/Ret con.

Re:Good riddance

[Anonymous Coward]

That would require people to use the Nexus One.

Re:Good riddance

[Skuld-Chan]

I expect the signal to vary when I touch the phone - that's a given. I remember when doing amateur radio as a child there was a calculated (and sometimes very noticeable) gain loss when a handheld radio came in close proximity with the human body - and most of these radios had really really efficient antennas compared to most cell phones.

I think with the iPhone 4 - the issue is if you have particularly sweaty hands (which I do) they can short the two antennas and increase the swr so much it effectively knocks the signal out *completely*. When putting the piece of tape over the gap solves the issue I think its more of a design flaw than common problem. I had a rubber antenna for some handheld radio that had a short in it once - you couldn't hear hardly anything unless the transmitter was right on top of you.

In the link you have there - the Nexus 1 owner/author admits that the signal doesn't go completely away - it still lets you make a phone call.

My Rev 2 Nexus 1 (the one made for AT&T/Telus) this issue occurs, but in most cases its not a big deal (maybe 10-20 db - if that). I had the same issue on my Nokia N97 too.

Re:Good riddance

[e2d2]

It has reception issues, as the parent to my post pointed out.

Re:Good riddance

[Flamora]

I dunno, doesn't most of that free porn require Flash to view? In that case, the point still stands.

Re:Good riddance

[Anonymous Coward]

For what it's worth, the Nexus One had similar problems... where's the lawsuit?

Hmmm this is rather amusing.... here's one of the most recent posts from that exact link you shared with us...

Iphone 4 has exactly the same problem as the Nexus 1. On the Iphone its on the left side. If you touch it, signal drops. They housed the antenna there and used the outer metal casing as an antenna extension.

Funny thing is, when this happened with the Nexus, people were getting completely bent out of shape. Now that the Iphone's got the same issue, nobody makes a peep. Apparently, if Apple does it, then its all ok.

But to answer your question, I would guess that it's because there wasn't a massive PR push promising magical antenna performance, followed by "reviews" from multiple sources lauding the magic & wizardry of the awesome new iPhone antenna. And perhaps the promises from Apple that the signal problems with previous models were going to be fixed. And I'm guessing the condescending response from Big Daddy J had more than a little to do with it. And probably because this is a complete rookie screw up that any 1st year engineering student should have caught.
And finally, although I've not seen any actual evidence of the claim, it is being reported this flaw was known ahead of time by Apple, and that they chose to release a product with a known defect which directly contradicted their marketing. (them are called false advertisements, see)..

Re:Good riddance

[DRJlaw]

For what it's worth, the Nexus One had similar problems... where's the lawsuit?

You merely assume that the problems are similar. Upon what are you basing the assumption?

Could you 'short' the antenna in the Nexus One merely by holding a phone in the 'wrong' way? No.
Did the Nexus One signal drop by 24 dBm when you held it in your hand? No.
Is the reception quantifyably worse than either the Nexus One or the previous generation iPhone? Yes.

A 10dBm drop compared to the iPhone 3GS is unacceptable when the primary function of the device is to serve as a wireless phone.

The lawyers suing Apple are not going to let it confuse the issue between absorptive signal loss due to coupling with a nearby hand, which indeed most phones are suspectible to, and antenna detuning due to galvanic conduction over an uncoated external antenna, which is a design decision worthy of a Gumby.

Re:Good riddance

[stealth_finger]

that prude Steve Jobs that suggests that we shouldn't be watching hardcore pornography on the bus.

The nerve of the man!

Re:Good riddance

[TheRaven64]

A 10dBm drop compared to the iPhone 3GS is unacceptable when the primary function of the device is to serve as a wireless phone.

Is it? I thought the primary purpose was to serve as a status symbol, the secondary purpose was to buy overpriced apps, the tertiary purpose was to browse the web. Being a wireless phone is way down the list.

Re:Good riddance

[Urban Garlic]

> Google lets us have porn on our handsets, so we look the other way.

That's not how you do porn. Or at least, that's not how I do porn.

Re:Good riddance

[RDW]

'Google lets us have porn on our handsets, so we look the other way. Because Google is cool like that unlike that prude Steve Jobs that suggests that we shouldn't be watching hardcore pornography on the bus.'

Now it all makes sense! Steve Jobs doesn't allow this material on the iPhone to discourage anyone from holding it with their left hand.

Re:Good riddance

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

Just because there was no lawsuit for a completely different product does not mean this one is baseless or unfair.

No, it just means that it's probably blown way out of proportion.

Re:Good riddance

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't care.

Re:Good riddance

[wfolta]

Read:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/3794/the-iphone-4-review/2

And learn something.

Re:Good riddance

[Anonymous Coward]

I am a Nexus One user since Jan 2010. No problem with my N1. I got good signal, either in my house, office or in moving train. I can gripped as tight as I could, and still getting good signal reception. :) Anyway, both might have problems but, Nexus One's and iPhone 4's problem are not the same. IMHO.

Re:Good riddance

[wfolta]

Did you read

http://www.anandtech.com/show/3794/the-iphone-4-review/2

Evidently so, but you missed the part about it getting BETTER reception and reception in areas that previous iPhones could not.

Re:Good riddance

[arc86]

Am I right to think that this problem could have been avoided just by adding a layer of black paint over the antenna? Of course, the capacitive coupling of your hand to the antenna would still have an effect as it does in many RF devices, but a thin layer of such insulator would prevent the hand from altering the effective length of the antenna. I do think Apple deserve credit for finding a place in the phone to include an antenna that I presume to be much bigger than your standard patch antenna. I just wonder if this is a case of form coming before function, with someone making the decision to go with the shiny metal look to appeal to the eye.

Re:Good riddance

[Anonymous Coward]

I suppose you have tested this yourself? The reception is much better than previous iphones, I should know I have the current and previous models so I have a reference point.

Re:Good riddance

[amRadioHed]

So having reception problems that aren't as bad makes it inferior? In 6 months I've never had a dropped call on my N1. The iPhone has an external antenna that comes in direct contact with the user, that apparently makes a difference because people are reporting they can drop calls just by holding the phone in a certain way.

Re:Good riddance

[jo_ham]

So the workers that assembled the Nexus were not paid?

Re:Good riddance

[Sandbags]

Fact: even when held, and the iPhone 4 signal drops by approximately 19dB, it still has a stronger signal than the Nexus One or iPhone 3GS (both of which also drop off when held as well).
Fact: At -113db, neither the 3GS nor Nexus can connect a call, let alone maintain one, and the iPhone 4 can do both, and can maintain that signal strength significantly farther from the signal source, even when held.

Yes it has drop off. Yes, you may see 5 bars become 1 (out of a 140dB scale, 5 bars to 1 bar is only 43dB on most phones, so that more than half of the time, when you have better signal, you always see 5 bars, this is an insistence from multiple carriers, not just Apple and AT&T). On average, and in testing, the iPhone 4 does have superior signal strength either way, hold calls better and farther, and is in fact correct in Steve Jobs saying "far superior to any phone we have released."

The Nexus 1 looses 8db when held. The 3GS looses 12. The iPhone looses 19. However, when it looses 19, it's still higher than the 3GS... This is an issue of user perception, not scientific fact or manufacturing defect. MANY phones drop more than 20DB when held in certain ways, and on almost all new devices, due to FCC regulations, the antenna is at the bottom.

Re:Good riddance

[Sandbags]

Even "shorted" and after dropping 19db, the iPhone 4 still has more signal strength in the same conditions as the 3GS or Nexus one, so it's IRRELEVANT data (typically we call it propaganda), and the iPhone 4 even at the same strength hold signals much better and farther from the tower than any other tested phone, and can connect and maintain good call quality calls when the others can not even contact the tower at all.

This is a user perception issue, not a technical failing.

The iPhone 4 in fact is the best cell phone Apple has ever released. This is validated by scientific signal measurement. (even when it;s being held "wrong.")

Re:Good riddance

[Anonymous Coward]

When putting the piece of tape over the gap solves the issue I think its more of a design flaw than common problem.

I don't mean to nitpick, but I see this everywhere, the "design flaw" part. And, if I may speak in a character for a bit here, it's just sooooo apropriate that my brain is so messed up I can't see the pristine logic that it can't be anything but a design flaw. right.... sarcasm is hard to read but at least it's out of my system. Your post is perfectly reasonable, so I chose yours because even reasonable people are jumping to conclusions when it comes to iPhone 4. Now, I don't expect anyone to speak with laser precision, but the journalists especially were reporting a little more than the news. But I digress.

A counter argument to that it must be a design flaw, as opposed to what I believe, a cost-efficient design, is simply that Apple wanted it to be less expensive, so to cut costs, since most will be in very strong cell areas and will not be affected, any with sweaty hands and/or weak cell areas can purchase the Bumper, which lowers the overall price of the iPhone by not having to include it in the cost of every sale. So... if you don't live in the most densely populated areas, where all the reception is... where they designed it to work... get a Bumper, because by subsidizing the cost of iPhone, including for meek, dry handed weirdos probably living like sardines in dangerously unhealthy overpopulated conditions, you ensure that particular feature is merely exhausting its predicted vector, indicated by Bumper sales.

Re:Good riddance

[failedlogic]

More paint over the antenna? No! That will make it look ugly.

I will paint my hand instead.

Re:Good riddance

[sjonke]

I'm curious how many iPhone 4 owners you know that experience a complete loss of signal when they do this? How many do you know that report getting signal in more places then they use to with their previous iPhone, as well as fewer dropped calls? Is there an issue? Sure. Is it as big a deal as all the people without an iPhone 4 make it out to be? Well, I'll find out for myself in a few weeks. If it is, the phone goes back. If it's not a big deal, I'll keep it, especially if it gives me a connection more consistently. There's two places on my train ride where I always lose signal completely for a short period with my 3GS. I'll know on my first train ride if this thing does the trick or not.

Re:Good riddance

[geekoid]

It's a bunch of anecdotes. Have any antenna engineers come forward to explain it? Has there been a public response from Google, T-Mobile or HTC?

It's hard to take it as an actually problem when over half of the people don't even understand what they are explaining.

Doesn't mean there isn't a problem..but it doesn't mean there is a problem.

It means, at best, that an actual study by people who understand the science behind it.

A persona anecdote:
After typing the top piece I contact 3 Nexus owners and asked them to try and reproduce the problem. They could not reproduce it in any meaningful way.

If you are having these issuers, then start the lawsuit. IF you aren't, then I suspect you went on a cherry picking mission to try and make your self look smart, or defend some lame Apple purchase.

Re:Good riddance

[e2d2]

I never said a thing about the nexus one, the parent did and I went off on a rant about how it doesn't even matter because it's irrelevant. I could give two shits about the nexus one.

Re:Good riddance

[DoofusOfDeath]

Or at least, that's not how I do porn.

Thanks for that.

Re:Good riddance

[geekoid]

No, it doesn't require flash. Most of it can be downloaded in a number of container types.

Well the site I visit don't require flash.

Re:Good riddance

[Anonymous Coward]

To nit-pick your post, "24dBm" is a precise level, 24 dB above one milliwatt. a relative level drop should be expressed as 24 dB.

Re:Good riddance

[godawful]

My understanding is that people are judging things by "how many bars are on my phone?".. not "can i still make a phone call?"

Anandtech has a very thorough review of the iPhone 4.. but in particular page which talks in depth the changes happening when one uses the grip o' death, etc etc.

Such as:

From my day of testing, I've determined that the iPhone 4 performs much better than the 3GS in situations where signal is very low, at -113 dBm (1 bar). Previously, dropping this low all but guaranteed that calls would drop, fail to be placed, and data would no longer be transacted at all. I can honestly say that I've never held onto so many calls and data simultaneously on 1 bar at -113 dBm as I have with the iPhone 4, so it's readily apparent that the new baseband hardware is much more sensitive compared to what was in the 3GS. The difference is that reception is massively better on the iPhone 4 in actual use.

Re:Good riddance

[Hognoxious]

Coming soon: the iGlove.

Re:Good riddance

[intheshelter]

The Nexus cost the same as an iPhone. There is no savings with Android handsets.

Sorry, but you answer doesn't hold water.

Re:Good riddance

[e2d2]

Flamebait? Seriously? That's pretty funny. I guess that's what I get for arguing about how illogical the parent's post was. Maybe I should avoid emotion, you bitches can't seem to handle anything past a whisper. Bunch of candy asses IMHO.

Re:Good riddance

[geekoid]

No, it is a technical failing.
the Antenna design is BAD. The person responsible should be ashamed of themselves. This may not be the Antennae engineer. He may have been forced to do that design based on some management decision.

Have you ever designed antennas?

"This is validated by scientific signal measurement. "

Care to link to link to said study. Be careful, if it isn't a good scientific study, I will rip you a new one.

Of course you have a fallacy that being better is all that matters. I can build and advertise a car that gets 100 MPG, but if it drops to 80MPG when driven by left handed people, I will be sued. It dosn't matter then t gets better gas MPG then my previous vehicle.

Re:Good riddance

[Anonymous Coward]

"Just don't do it that way." Steve Jobs

Re:Good riddance

[Sandbags]

Well, since the devices don;t all exhibit this behavior, and many of them can't even be made to ground out, I;d call it a failing of manufactruing the coating proerly as it is applied to the metal rim (which shouldbe non-conductive to begin with).

I happen to have a significant engineering backing, heavy in both electronics, magnetics, and RF. I'm not an antenna engineer, but I can do the calculus and understand the physics involved very well.

The release was from anandtech, and was a well done fairly scientific, repeated multiple times on multiple devices, and using fairly professional equipment and both lab and field testing methods. It's a preliminary study, but a very competent start to a larger scale analysis. They're a well trusted source.

19db is bad, top of the curve bad, but the average is over 12 and the previous generation iPhone, which no one noticed, dropped 13. More so, better IS better, since usability and reliability actually means something compared to number on paper.

As for the car, every car performs better or worse depending on how you drive it. Shit, just making more right turns and fewer left turns can have as much as a 10% impact on your driving. That's not a valid analogy anyway. Better is better if there's no drawback vs the current option. A new system might have it;s own limitations and quirks, but so long as those limits are at their worst still above the options otherwise available, and the limitations and quirks do not introduce new negatives, then that is the very technical definition of better (not perfect, which all you anti-apple people think you deserve nothing less than).

I'm not pro or ant any vendor. i take no allegiances. I'll drop one product to buy another anytime there's a good reason to, and I'll always recommend the best product for a person's needs regardless of any perceived personal preference. I'm a systems analyst and solutions engineer, I have to be open to options. To some I recommend apple, to others android, and to others to stay the fuck away from smartphone entirely. I recommend widows to some, mac to others, linux/unix. IBM to some, Apple to others, though I've not found a reason to recommend dell to anyone in many many years. My interest here is stopping FUD, propogandsa, and general bullshit and hate flowing here. Wether the data anandtech has meets your requirements of scientific enough or not, fact is, no one else has ANY data, and until they have contrary data, it;s conjecture, and is to be dismissed or studied, but not commented on, and certainly not sued over, until there IS such data.

Re:Good riddance

[Anonymous Coward]

To be fair, Apple lets you have porn on the iPhone too.

How am I supposed to properly enjoy my porn if I can't hold my iPhone in my left hand?

Re:Good riddance

[phonewebcam]

High five to that buddy. Apple getting a good kicking is waaay overdue, and this i "Phone" 4 turkey they released is the way its gonna happen. The real fun begins if it's recalled.

Jeepers, their arrogance is astonishing -
Can't make calls? Your fault for holding it wrong.
Can't view flash? Your fault for wanting something we've decided we won't support because it undermines our own content, but will keep telling you that you don't need it rather than the truth.
Can't copy your music outside our drm prison? Your fault for trying it with inferior kit.

There are no private cars in North Korea. All the 5-lane freeways are empty - only official vehicles allowed. That's because the government claims everything any citizen would even want is within walking or cycling distance. They know best, you see. That's Apple, were it a government - the only freedom is freedom from choice, not of it.

Re:Good riddance

[Khyber]

"I do think Apple deserve credit for finding a place in the phone to include an antenna that I presume to be much bigger than your standard patch antenna."

I don't. Nobody with any antenna experience would make it so that it could so easily be bridged and artificially lengthened, unless the device were meant for tuning to multiple frequencies.

And EXPOSING the antenna? I'm sorry, that's just the dumbest fucking move I've ever seen. I could understand it back in the 40s-80s when we were using lead-based paint and such and you might need to wrap some foil around the antenna to make it get better signal, but this is the new fucking millennium and even an amateur HAM wouldn't make such a stupid mistake.

Re:Good riddance

[Khyber]

"This is a user perception issue, not a technical failing."

Says someone obviously lacking in technical experience with regards to antenna construction and layout.

Re:Good riddance

[JaZz0r]

Steve Jobs demonstrates the correct way to hold the iPhone 4

Re:Good riddance

[BlackSnake112]

Please. You ARE obviously holding it wrong.

That's what she said.

Sorry couldn't resist.

Re:Good riddance

[Khyber]

"Fact: even when held, and the iPhone 4 signal drops by approximately 19dB, it still has a stronger signal than the Nexus One or iPhone 3GS"

Fact: no iPhone 4 user can get reception in my apartment, PERIOD, out of the eight that have tried. Nexus One, HTC, and older phones do. Even the iPhone 3GS from my next-door dope dealer gets signal, and can pick up the wi-fi blasting from the AP set out in the University sports stadium across the street from me. The iPhone 4 can not, it can't even see the other wireless APs around except for the one in my apartment.

Re:Good riddance

[BlackSnake112]

The new iphone has two cameras in it. It was made for porn. Yes they call if 'face time'. So many other 'times' can be used with it.

I do not have an iphone. My friend and his girl friend do. She did not know I was there since where she had the iphone she could not see the screen clearly.

I am thinking of calling her Rudolph since when I see her now her face turns bright red.

Re:Good riddance

[DurendalMac]

I checked the demo model at a nearby AT&T Store. One fingertip over the lower left gap and the signal dropped quite a bit. There's definitely an issue. It's not worth a lawsuit and the spoiled little yuppies screaming their heads off should be slapped, but there's definitely an issue.

Re:Good riddance

[Anonymous Coward]

Start one if you have a Nexus One and care enough.

Re:Good riddance

[Anonymous Coward]

If you actually read through the article you linked, you'd have known that the 24dBm drop was quantified by Anand. By following the relevant link, you'd have learned that he followed it by saying that dBm alone is a poor way to benchmark the quality of the signal received; rather, focus should be put on signal-to-noise ratio where the iPhone 4's antenna seems to excel (difficult to actually benchmark, considering how locked down the phone is).

In real-world performance, according to your own source, the iPhone 4 is better. Quoting Anand:

it's readily apparent that the new baseband hardware is much more sensitive compared to what was in the 3GS. The difference is that reception is massively better on the iPhone 4 in actual use.

If you want to use the iPhone 4 as a phone, it's technically superior to previous generations. If you want to use it to catch as much wattage as possible from the air, you may want to look into getting another device.

If you're going to spread FUD, at least avoid linking to something which directly counters what you're saying. Make it a little much challenging for us.

Re:Good riddance

[Xtravar]

You can most certainly load your iPhone or iPad up with porn. Hint: do not pass around your device at a team meeting to show mock-ups if it has porn on it.

Re:Good riddance

[Bryansix]

Talk about ignorance. Just because you don't understand the cloud does not mean you should attack it. First off, you can locally back up everything on Google. Secondly, Apple has a cloud. Third... aw this is a waste of time...

Re:Good riddance

[Bryansix]

Thank you for that one data point in a sea of porn. I know of two data points which do require flash.

Re:Good riddance

[Keebler71]

What is a dropped call anyway? (Disclaimer: I'm a verizon customer)

Re:Good riddance

[cowscows]

First off, in typical use, I've never seen a car consistently get the MPG that's stuck on its window when you buy it. And second, what particular claim in Apple's advertising would you base this lawsuit on. I can't say for sure that I've seen everything that Apple has said about the phone, but I'd be surprised if they made any specific guarantees about reception quality.

"It's not as good as I had hoped" isn't a good basis for a legal case.

All that being said, the antenna design does seem to be pretty bad. But bad as in you take it back to the store and get your money back. Not bad as in lets file a lawsuit!

Re:Good riddance

[arc86]

I don't. Nobody with any antenna experience would make it so that it could so easily be bridged and artificially lengthened, unless the device were meant for tuning to multiple frequencies.

OK, and would that or would that not be solved by painting over the antenna to add a decent amount of resistance between it and God-knows-what?

Re:Good riddance

[Skuld-Chan]

Zero - I have yet to see an iPhone 4 directly in person - I've just watched the videos where people grip it in such a way that it loses its signal apparently. The placement of the antennas this actually does make some sense.

Re:Good riddance

[exomondo]

For what it's worth, the Nexus One had similar problems... where's the lawsuit?

It's not worth very much in this context since that issue is signal degradation which - as Jobs rightly pointed out - is an issue with most mobiles, the difference here is that with the iphone 4 it's degradation to the point that the signal is completely lost.

Re:Good riddance

[Anonymous Coward]

Is there a -1: Fanboi mod?

Re:Good riddance

[Fahrvergnuugen]

But who would let facts get in the way of spewing FUD?

Re:Good riddance

[mjwx]

No, it is a technical failing.

Anyone with a high school level understanding of physics could tell this is happening because the circuit is being broken by person touching the aerial. This is definitely a design fault, QA as well, was UAT even done?

Besides this Apple has a history of bad antenna design, placing the antenna in the bottom of the previous Iphones increased the SNR (Signal to Noise Ratio). In simple terms you'd have more chance of losing the signal (dropped call) even though you had a relatively strong signal (bars for the average moron). SNR is a measure of a good signal, strength just tells you how loud the noise is.

Have you ever designed antennas?

Admittedly no, but I did pass grade 12 physics. I'd ask if the GP did.

Re:Good riddance

[Anonymous Coward]

> The Nexus 1 looses 8db when held. The 3GS looses 12. The iPhone looses 19.

You knead to tighten up you're spelling.

Re:Good riddance

[Khyber]

It wouldn't, capacitance and attenuation from the fluids in your body would still cause issues.

Splitting the antenna to two sides was a big fuckup, as well.

Re:Good riddance

[arc86]

So the lost signal takes the path Antenna->Human Body->Ground. To model this effect for (ESD evaluation) the test is to touch the contact to a 1.5 kohm resistor in series with a 100pf capacitor to ground. (From http://www.esda.org/documents/FundamentalsPart5.pdf)

This 100pf capacitance is quite a low impedance at 1900 MHz (x=1/2piFC), just -j 0.838 ohms. To increase this impedance, note that capacitors in series decrease the overall capacitance (which increases impedance). So you can create such a capacitor by adding dielectric (any insulator) between the antenna and the hand. The thicker this insulator is the lower the added series capacitance. And the lower the added capacitance, the greater the impedance and the less overall coupling of signal to the human body. The calculation of exactly how much capacitance is created by a layer of clear coat between the metal antenna and the hand is, um, left to the reader.

Also, I believe the antenna is split to two sides because each antenna fulfills a different function in a different RF band. One is 3G and one is wifi. Broadband antennas are difficult, but not impossible to make, so I think this is a case of the keep-it-simple-stupid approach.

They may have a case

[XPeter]

If Apple is stupid to only do testing:

A. In their Cupertino facility, which has it's own AT&T tower
B. In the field, but covered with their 30$ bumpers

Then this case may have some potential even though it will drag on for years and only the lawyers will gain millions of dollars, with the end result being a small settlement not beneficial to the consumer. Just like all IT lawsuits.

Re:They may have a case

[BenphemeR]

They did real world testing, remember the whole "Oh shit I left my iPhone 4 prototype on a bar stool!" thing??

Re:They may have a case

[Flamora]

Ah ah, that one was in a case, remember?

Re:They may have a case

[BenphemeR]

Oooh ya! I wish they would sell those cases. I like the look of the 3G more than the iPhone 4.

Re:They may have a case

[Keebler71]

Umm.... if you recall from the iPhone4 prototype fiasco, at least one was enclosed in a iPhone3g enclosure which obviously wouldn't have had this problem as it had a different antenna design.

Re:They may have a case

[Sandbags]

The FCC does it;s own testing, and Apple also has to have very specific scientific tests of the radio done as well, before they can even put the prototype in the hands of a field tester on the network. You know not of what you speak. Pleas stop spreading FUD. This was extensively tested, and even with a 19dB drop off, was found to be superior to the previous iPhone, hold calls at lower dB, and even when held, have more dB than the 3GS and several other tested phones.

Quit buying the bullshit and look at some (finally released yesterday) scientific data. Everything before yesterday was conjecture and perception, and had NO basis in reality or fact. This is not a problem, it's a perception of a problem.

Re:They may have a case

[XPeter]

No study was "released" yesterday, the good folks at Anand took it upon themselves to run tests for the public when Apple wouldn't.

Also, it's 19dB regularly. What if you're out for a jog, your hands are moist, and then you're trying to place a call? The drop will be far more steep.

Finally, with AT&T's shit network coverage you're always going to need the maximum signal performance from the phone that you can possibly receive.

It's not buying bullshit, it's all prevalent fact.

Re:They may have a case

[suomynonAyletamitlU]

Wasn't that guy a radio engineer to begin with?

One would hope that since he had it out in the field in order to test it, he would get some time, even in bathroom stalls, to take it out of its case and try a "hand on" test as it were. If nobody did that because Apple is too paranoid about people knowing their product before it's for sale... well, that was a double failure--it got out, and they didn't do the tests they needed. Congratulations, Apple.

Re:They may have a case

[Sandbags]

I can't speak to sweaty hands, but if that's your situation, probably best you use bluetooth anyway (i know very few joggers who do any different, and fewer still who jog with a smartphone at all).

As for AT&T coverage, I don;t care about maps that cover places people don;t live. AT&T covers 97% of us with a voice/data concurrent network. As for our firm, we had verizon, we dropped them. We're in a big city, and have offices in 15 others across 5 states, 15K employees over half of which have a company phone. 20% were complaining about verizon coverage, and more that there smartphone didn't work when they were on a call.

On AT&T, we do very factually get more bars in more places, we only have 3% of people still complaining (small enough that we got the ones that mattered femtocells). We get 5 bars in every part of our corporate tower now, except 3 in the elevator and basement. We can SEE the Verizon tower from the building, the AT&T tower is a mile farther away, yet AT&T gets us better signal, fewer dropped calls (we actually track that btw), far superior 3G speed, and we can actually check e-mail while on a call, or use GPS and be on a call, which was not possible on Verizon (nor sprint).

Even in NY, signal stability is up 70% in a year with 40% more airtime available, thanks to a few hundred million AT&T spent, and some frequency trading in the 850MHz band the FCC helped them out with to get more airspace. SF is working better, and getting better weekly. I was in manhattan 4 weeks ago for several hours, and in NJ most of a weekend. 4 iPhones and an iPad, not a single dropped call. 2 verizon phones and 1 sprint, 16 dropped calls. On a 650 mile road trip, pandora didn't stop streaming on the 1 phone one time.

Also, 19db drop, that's still got more signal than a 3GS sitting on a table, or a nexus one. and at the same db, very weak -119db signal, the iPhone 4 did calls and data concurrency, where the 3GS could not even hit the tower, nor the nexus.

This issue is entirely a user perception one based on how the carriers want to see "more bars in more places" by dramatically lowering the threshold of 5 bars to where 2 bars used to live on the line...

Re:They may have a case

[Khyber]

"AT&T covers 97% of us with a voice/data concurrent network"

Wrong. This figure is more like 60%.

And that was after two hours of looking over the population density maps and laying it over with AT&T service maps.

Too lazy to do the real math so you could speak fact?

Re:They may have a case

[BlackSnake112]

Your an Apple fanboy. Admit it. And go away.

Too many different people are saying the same thing. You quoting dB is not going to mean shit to regular people who have a call dropped when the hold a cell phone a certain way. And by the way, all 7 people I know with an Iphone 4 are getting dropped calls when the hold the phone in their left hand. That is 7 out of 7. I would say there is a problem.

Re:They may have a case

[Bryansix]

Fantastic shrilling there. I mean really, A+! However for me the only thing I care about are four counties (each bigger then most states) which include Los Angeles, Orange, Riverside, and San Bernardino. In THOSE counties the AT&T reception is SHIT! I had ATT for years and I lost track of the dropped calls. I once spent 2 hours on hold to complain about reception in my dorm room at a Cal State college and when I got a rep (after two fucking hours on hold) they wouldn't take the complaint because I was not the main account holder!

Needless to say the whole family switched to Verizon and never looked back. I have not lost a call yet and Verizon is rolling out an LTE 4G network that will allow Global compatability in all their phones. Basically if you live in Southern California then you know that ATT can suck it and Verizon is king.

Re:They may have a case

[Sandbags]

Blame the FCC for that, not AT&T. Maximum frequency density has been achieved, only more air space can solve the issue. The iPhone 4 supports an additional band of 850MHz signal, not available on most other current AT&T phones, not to mention HSDPA, and now the the rollout is complete in NY, and since started in Cali, it should not be long until you see the same 70% fewer reported issues come your way. Most NYers did not notice not as the rollout was gradual, but the numbers are significantly better now. I was in NY and NY 2 months ago, and had no issues at all on several iPhones and an iPad, and Verizon gave us all sorts of issues for the few in our group with their wares.

Verizon is better there because they have significantly fewer callers per sq mile per channel, but as people flee AT&T to Verizon, this only makes verizon's issue worse. Also, Verizon's LTE is no 700MHz band, they're rushing to market a keyword, not a technology, and in it;s airspace it will get basically the same speed as 3G HSDPA, but at 2.5 times the power drain. (same as sprint it seeing with their WiMAX 4G, which is benchmarking slower than AT&T and HSDPA phones in Charlotte where both services are deployed). AT&T is rolling our 700MHz LTE, which will be delayed by several months due to restrictions, but since it's a NEW airspace, not taking signal away from an existing one, AT&T can continually add network and 2-3x the speed of Verizon LTE, starting in June next year, while Verizon has to cripple their existing towers to segregate off LTE in the same airspace, further accelerating their inevitable signal issues.

Impossible to connect to AT&T's network anyway

[Anonymous Coward]

a connection problem ... that makes it difficult or impossible to maintain a connection to AT&T's network

So.... The phone exists??

Slap a bumper on it, call it done.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not sure if this suit has any merit. At beat, Apple just is going to hand out rubber bumpers and be done with it. Then with the next year's iPhone, will do a slight redesign with some shellac over the exposed wires, and a bit of engineering so that capacitance isn't an issue.

Re:Slap a bumper on it, call it done.

[localman57]

That's exactly what the class action lawyers want to happen, in settlement. And they'll get a take of the value of the bumpers. That's how it always pans out. The consumer gets some bobble of junk, or a coupon, and the class action firm gets cash for their trouble.

That said, I do think class action firms are among the only ones capable of putting a bit of fear in evil corporations (Think Merck/vioxx).

Re:Slap a bumper on it, call it done.

[hedwards]

Yeah, that's how it went for TD Ameritrade with their suit. All we got out of it was free trade vouchers. Free trade vouchers, really? You leak our private info to spammers and cyber criminals and then you expect us to be around to use those vouchers?

There are exceptions, but that's typically how it works.

Re:Slap a bumper on it, call it done.

[ProppaT]

If they do this along with offering an extended return period (90 days vs. 30 days) I would be okay with it. The product is obviously flawed. 90 days and a rubber band lets people decide if they can live with the flawed product or not. Honestly, what should happen is that every single iPhone 4 purchaser should return their phones all at once and let Apple deal with taking the financial hit of fixing them or selling them as refurbs with a known design defect. Unfortunately, people are too fanatical about their iPhones to see the forest through the trees. If this was any other company with any other phone, there would be an automatic recall forced by the carrier.

Re:Slap a bumper on it, call it done.

[Anonymous Coward]

I got ~$35 for buying 2 sticks of RAM in the recent DRAM suit (something like 10% of the price IIRC), so not all class action settlements are lame.

Re:Slap a bumper on it, call it done.

[kimvette]

Then the whole value (for a lot of Apple fans) is completely lost because the phone won't be so stylish anymore. Even for those who value functionality, a bit of value is lost because a slim phone/pocket-sized unix box is now a bulky POS. Why not buy an Android phone instead?

My iPhone? I like Apple's software but I am no Apple fan (I like to be brand-agnostic - someone else always has a better solution sooner or later). I had a case on my iPhone but now it's bare and has quite a few scratches. I got a scratch on the new scratch-resistant phone four days after buying the phone (scratched on a diamond earring - I babied the phone up to then and didn't give holding it up to my ear a second thought). Since then, I haven't been overly worried about scratching it, since the screen is scratched.

I do have it in a charging sleeve about half the time but unfortunately the sleeve does affect reception so I only put the battery in when it's low.

Re:Slap a bumper on it, call it done.

[geekoid]

Yes, but I think lawyers should only get an equal share when doing class action lawsuits. if it is 1 lawyer and 99 people, the lawyer gets 1% of the total settlement.

Also, for anyone not starting the lawsuit, they should be able to opt out simple by returning whatever reward they got.

Those would nearly end all fishing, and ensure an actual fair settlement for the people who were affected.

Just Return It

[CowboyBob500]

FFS, if I bought a phone and it didn't work I'd just take the thing back to the shop and get a refund. That way I get my money back so I can buy a different phone as a replacement. With a class-action lawsuit they'll get $5 worth of iTunes vouchers and still have a phone that doesn't work. What planet are these people on?

Re:Just Return It

[betterunixthanunix]

The idea behind the lawsuit is to remind Apple that marketing poorly designed or tested products is not acceptable. I think.

Re:Just Return It

[nanoakron]

You're absolutely right.

And the best thing is...this phone's only been out a week. 1 whole week.

And there's already hysterical screaming from the rooftops and people running to lawyers because they see Apple as a potential cash cow, rather than returning a defective product and being done with it. No, they want to have their cake and eat it too.

Not to mention the largest of these suits only names 11 plaintiffs. 11.

I've got an iPhone 4 myself, as do two of my friends and none of us are able to reproduce this reception issue.

I know the plural of anecdote isn't data but we're already nearly a quarter the way to the number of plaintiffs in this suit.

Re:Just Return It

[barzok]

The idea behind the lawsuit is to remind Apple that marketing poorly designed or tested products is not acceptable. I think.

A higher-than-normal return rate, with the antenna issue being the stated reason, should achieve similar results. In theory.

Re:Just Return It

[ThoughtMonster]

The idea behind returning faulty equipment is the same, I think.

Re:Just Return It

[DWMorse]

It's not exactly about the phone. Yes, you CAN return the phone, but it's too late at that point - now you're in a 2-year AT&T contract, that you then have to pay $375 to get out of. All thanks to your phone, sold to you by Apple, not working as advertised.

So then you have a choice, do you eat the $199 or $299, and the cost to get a different phone, to hold up your contractual obligation? Or do you start lighting a fire under Apple's ass to fix the phone so you can get the phone and service you paid for? AT&T blames Apple, Apple blames the consumer, so the consumer is going to have to sue to get things righted.

Re:Just Return It

[danmart1]

"What are these people on?" Apples, laced with powderized iPhones.

Re:Just Return It

[Anonymous Coward]

you've got 15 days to return a phone per their contract agreement for buyers remorse.

Re:Just Return It

[Anonymous Coward]

In most states a lemon law/buyers remorse period will protect you from being stuck in the contract and most carriers give you 15 days or more to return any hardware and get out of your contract. You can even port your number back over to a more reliable carrier.

Re:Just Return It

[Piata]

I don't know if AT&T works like this but for Bell Canada if you buy a new phone and talk on it for more than 30 minutes, you can't return it.

Re:Just Return It

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a good point (it's been hardly any time since it was released), but can you also back out of the phone service contract and get a refund on the remaining commitment?

Re:Just Return It

[PPalmgren]

Anandtech just popped out a fantastic writeup on this issue in their iPhone 4 review. Check it out, its very informative for those who don't have basic antenna design knowledge from EE in college. To paraphrase, it reduces signal by up to 27 dbm, which is almost 50% of normal signal range. (50 to 113 dbm). This will not effect you or show on your bars if you get a better signal than ~75 dbm on a normal basis.

Pretty much anyone who has had an introductory course in EE should have forseen this after the keynote...including their employees. It is a case of gross engineering negligence. Yes, interference does happen with all phones, but the effect is much more pronounced with the iPhone 4 due to an exposed antenna and lack of spending to fix / spot the issue.

In short, your anecdote doesn't address the problem because you are in a good coverage area, and the signal degredation doesn't ruin your reception.

Re:Just Return It

[Colonel Korn]

Anandtech just popped out a fantastic writeup on this issue in their iPhone 4 review. Check it out, its very informative for those who don't have basic antenna design knowledge from EE in college. To paraphrase, it reduces signal by up to 27 dbm, which is almost 50% of normal signal range. (50 to 113 dbm). This will not effect you or show on your bars if you get a better signal than ~75 dbm on a normal basis.

Pretty much anyone who has had an introductory course in EE should have forseen this after the keynote...including their employees. It is a case of gross engineering negligence. Yes, interference does happen with all phones, but the effect is much more pronounced with the iPhone 4 due to an exposed antenna and lack of spending to fix / spot the issue.

In short, your anecdote doesn't address the problem because you are in a good coverage area, and the signal degredation doesn't ruin your reception.

Showing again why Anand runs the best tech site on the internet. Mod the parent up and everyone go read http://www.anandtech.com/show/3794/the-iphone-4-review/2 before posting saying that the antenna problem makes the phone unusable or posting that is has no effect.

Re:Just Return It

[ShadowRangerRIT]

Yes, but the people behind this lawsuit are more interested in making the point publicly. Or more likely, they're weenies who can't live without the latest and greatest iPhone, so a boycott won't happen. So they do the next "best" thing: complain to "Mommy" (the courts) that mean old Apple sold them a less than perfect phone, twisting the language of FCC regs to make a poor product into a non-compliant product so they can demand a free fix.

Re:Just Return It

[mikael_j]

Ah yes, I found the Anandtech writeup pretty funny, at least the following part:

Cupping tightly - This is the absolute worst case and involves squeezing the phone very tightly, like people are doing online in videos demonstrating all the bars going away. I squeeze the phone hard and make sure my palms are sweaty as well. You'd never hold the phone this way because it's physically painful.

I have no doubt this is a real problem but it definitely seems to be affected by the usual "let's piss all over Apple" thing that always happens when a fault with one of Apple's products has been discovered...

Re:Just Return It

[ShadowRangerRIT]

Right, but there's a difference between poor engineering and FCC regulation violations. And it seems like the plaintiffs are trying to twist the former into the latter, so they can get a free fix for their phone, because they don't want to take any of the usual, rational approaches to dealing with a defective product:

1. Returning the phone
2. Working around the issue (e.g. use a non-conductive sleeve, or put a coat of non-conductive clear nail polish over one of the exposed antenna, or even, as Jobs said "don't hold it like that")

Clearly they can't live without the latest and "greatest" iPhone, so they have no choice but to keep using the phone while whining about it in court.

Now, that said, if there really is an FCC regulations violation, it needs to be fixed, but this sounds like a bunch of whiny jackasses, not legitimate concerned consumers.

Re:Just Return It

[delinear]

Better results, I would have thought. If they had to give out some iTunes vouchers, they've still made a huge profit on the phone and contract, and they sell iTunes content at a further profit anyway, so you're getting nowhere near $5 (or whatever it is) value from the company, and on top of that if you go buy someone else's phone you won't be spending at the App store. If you take the vouchers, you're demonstrating they can sell you an inferior product without any real consequence - assuming enough people returned them, I think that would be a much clearer statement for the future.

Re:Just Return It

[lymond01]

I've got an iPhone 4 myself, as do two of my friends and none of us are able to reproduce this reception issue.

Says Captain Hook and his alligator-hating posse.

Re:Just Return It

[delinear]

I don't know what the state of the law is like in the US on this, but here in the UK goods have to be fit for purpose, and if I buy a related service on the basis of goods that turn out to be faulty then I have the right to return both (well, actually the company can offer a replacement rather than a return, but since they could only offer me a handset with the same fault, they'd be forced to give me my money back and negate the contract). Is there no similar consumer protection in the US?

Re:Just Return It

[pongo000]

To paraphrase, it reduces signal by up to 27 dbm, which is almost 50% of normal signal range. (50 to 113 dbm).

IANAEE, but correct me if I'm wrong: db = 20log(V2/V1). That would mean every -6db in signal results in a 1/2 reduction of signal strength. By my calcs, a -27 db drop in signal strength is equivalent to a 1/22 reduction, or about a 95% reduction. That seems fairly significant to me.

Re:Just Return It

[Anonymous Coward]

But that's precisely the problem! They can't talk on their damn phone!

Re:Just Return It

[PPalmgren]

I think the lawsuit is intended as discovery to determine whether or not the company knew of this problem beforehand, and skimped on insulative coating or a solution maliciously so it could sell more cases. Selling a defective product knowingly, and selling a solution afterward for more money, is punishable.

Re:Just Return It

[kimvette]

In some states you have (n) days to return any purchased item for any reason - even items sold "as-is."

Re:Just Return It

[PPalmgren]

I can't recall as I didn't finish that degree, and now work in both Ops & Finance. I only have basic knowledge from designing planar antennae for Wifi & PCS ranges in Engi 102. I'm just going by the base numbers from AnandTech's article:

To give you perspective, for a UMTS "3G" plant, -51 dBm is the best reported signal you can get - it's quite literally standing next to, or under a block away from a tower. At the other extreme, -113 dBm is the worst possible signal you can have before disconnecting entirely.

So a 24 dbm drop equates to almost 50% of the allowable signal.

Re:Just Return It

[GizmoToy]

AT&T actually gives you a full 30 days from the date of shipment, so there's a good bit of time left before you're stuck with it. The iPhone is actually Apple's only product in the US that has a return period longer than 14 days, I assume because AT&T's 30 day policy supersedes it.

Either way, there's the issue of the restocking fee for returning a "non-defective" phone that's been opened. It's 10% of device cost. I don't know if anyone's determined if this is pre- or post- subsidy, since the people who have returned their iPhone 4s have to send them back to Apple, who checks if they're defective, then charges the fee. You don't find out at time of cancellation if you will be charged the fee, which would be from $20 to $80 depending on model and if they look at subsidized or full price.

So it's not as simple as "just return it." With Apple steadfastly sticking to their "that's how it's supposed to be, you're doing it wrong" stance, anyone who wants to return one is going to get stuck with that fee.

Re:Just Return It

[Ephemeriis]

FFS, if I bought a phone and it didn't work I'd just take the thing back to the shop and get a refund. That way I get my money back so I can buy a different phone as a replacement. With a class-action lawsuit they'll get $5 worth of iTunes vouchers and still have a phone that doesn't work. What planet are these people on?

Returning the phone may not really be an option though. Generally speaking, folks sign some kind of contract with the provider at time of purchase. No, you probably don't have to... But most people do. And those contracts have early termination fees.

Could you argue that the phone is defective and avoid paying the ETF? Probably... But maybe not, as Apple is not acknowledging the issue. Maybe AT&T will simply suggest that you follow Steve's directions and hold the phone differently.

Depending on where you live, a contract with AT&T without an iPhone might not be a wonderful idea. Around here AT&T has relatively crappy coverage. The only reason to go with AT&T instead of Verizon up here is to get your hands on an iPhone. If you return the iPhone you'd be better off canceling your contract and getting a phone through Verizon. Except for those ETFs.

The other bit is the fact that this is a communication device. It can be used to call for help in an emergency. Say there's been an accident and you try to call 911 for help, but your call gets dropped. Sure, random crap breaks, it happens. Blame it on sunspots or whatever. But what if Apple was aware that there was an issue that would cause calls to be dropped? And they didn't fix that issue? Are they now responsible for that dropped call?

And what if there are other defects that apple is aware of? What if there is some condition that causes it to emit a far stronger signal than normal? Far stronger than is safe? What if there is the potential to short something out and electrify that antenna? What if the battery is known to be leaking toxic fumes? Or bursts into flames if you dial the wrong number?

These devices are regulated to ensure that they not only function the way they're supposed to, but to ensure that they're safe.

If the manufacturer is rolling out a device with one known defect, you have to wonder if there are any other defects they know about.

Re:Just Return It

[stewbee]

If you are thinking in a strictly linear scale, then you are right. However, it covers about 50% of the logarithmic scale. Poor choice of wording on the GP's post, but not necessarily incorrect either.

As a side note, RF signals are usually measured in power, since that give a better idea of what is in the air to be received. The power levels received are dependent on two intertwined quantities; the voltage and the impedance of the receiver. Since impedances can vary from system to system this makes power the norm. The difference in powers able to be received is 10^((113-50)/10) ~= 2e6 of dynamic range. This is a huge difference. It is not unusual for receivers to have this dynamic range. Although, 27 dB is a huge hit to suffer.

Re:Just Return It

[Anonymous Coward]

You can't return it... as NEW. You can certainly return a defective product, whether they give you a cash refund, new or refurbished model, or a different make entirely is up to them though.

Re:Just Return It

[Darkness404]

....Because having the issue be plastered all around the internet isn't enough publicity? If you type in iPhone 4 in Google you find about 3 things mentioning the issue. People aren't just going to go out and buy a new tech product generally without googling it unless its a really, really low price which the iPhone 4 is not.

I'm sure that everyone who would generally go out and buy an iPhone now knows that it has problems.

Re:Just Return It

[Space cowboy]

Shit, just about every software company in the world is in deep-doo-doo then.

Show me a single software company that hasn't released a piece of software with known bugs, and then charged for 'version N+1'.

It seems to me that if all these iPhone owners are sufficiently motivated to keep their new phones, and not just return them for refund in the current 30-day period they're allowed, then maybe it's just not that big of a deal for them.

Anand's numbers are an impressive tour-de-force, but people are missing his other statements too - that *even with* the antenna performance dropping bars like there's no tomorrow, the iPhone 4 performs better at making calls than the 3GS he had right next to it. In other words, the bars are measuring signal attenuation, not phone efficiency.

Simon

Re:Just Return It

[Anonymous Coward]

This and the previous post should be modded WAY up. That article is excellent. Finally all the various reports and people's different experiences with the antenna make sense, and the review gets into all the details regarding many other issues besides the antenna. Kudos AnandTech.

Re:Just Return It

[Darkness404]

...Only because Apple (and their fanboys) seems to think their products are flawless.

If Apple was like the majority of tech manufacturers, they wouldn't have that problem because they wouldn't pretend that their devices didn't have issues. They would have multiple products to allow their consumers some choice in the matter, they would have research because they wouldn't try to make everything secretive, etc.

In short, its only Apple that puts design over functionality to the point that you get products like the Apple III and the iPhone 4.

Re:Just Return It

[Anonymous Coward]

I bought an iPhone when the 2nd gen came out. Didn't work in half my house, didn't work in 2 rooms in my office. Took it back to the apple store and they canceled my service. I had at&t for all of a week, (verizon before and after). 3 Years later, at&t is still sending me emails about unpaid phone service. The first bill, I called and told them I canceled and they said they'd take care of it. After the third time I just ignored the bills. Kinda ridiculous.

Re:Just Return It

[Anonymous Coward]

Me? I buy the $20 plastic cover (that 90% of iPhone users buy anyway, based on casual observation) and get on with my life.

Re:Just Return It

[jerdo]

Actually, you have at least 14 days to return a phone and not get charged the cancellation fee. Since the phone just came out a week ago, this won't be an issue.

Re:Just Return It

[Kenja]

Just return it, and pay the 350$ early service cancelation fee or keep paying a monthly fee for a phone you dont have any more. That'll show em!

Re:Just Return It

[Bill_the_Engineer]

The theory behind the lawsuit is that the greedy lawyer that initiated it gets some press and some money to boot!

Re:Just Return It

[tokul]

What planet are these people on?

America is not planet.

Re:Just Return It

[jo_ham]

So, a computer from 1980 and a 4th generation phone. Really digging deep there for a serious failure.

I'll give you a hint, this "fanboy cult" aura you are attempting to blame the design failures on did not exist in 1977 when the Apple III was conceived, so blaming its failure on that is just laughable.

The Apple III failed because it was expensive and was only a stopgap until the release of the Macintosh, and was fanless with a gigantic chassis to act as a heatsink (that didn't work effectively enough). The reason it had a huge, heavy metal frame was to be sure of passing the as-yet-unreleased FCC tests for EM. They hugely over-engineered it to ensure it would pass - it wasn't "form over function" it was literally "so much function, it will pass whatever FCC test eventually becomes law". Form had nothing to do with it. (It was also butt ugly).

Apple are well aware that their products are not perfect, otherwise we would all be buying Apple I machines with modern CPUs in them. They change, adapt and learn from their mistakes.

They still need to fix the Finder, but I hear that is coming, right after Duke Nukem Forever.

Re:Just Return It

[Sandbags]

correction: when held NORMALLY it only dropped 19dB. the 3GS dropped 12 in the same conditions, and the Nexus one dropped 7. Even after the 19dB drop, it had stronger dB signal when held than the other two, and at the same db range the other two could not even connect to the tower while the iPhone 4 could make ands sustain both voice and data calls (and even concurrently).

The drop IS more pronounced, but the signal is STILL better. I call that irrelevant.

Re:Just Return It

[jo_ham]

AT&T's contracts have a 30 day return period, with no early termination fee.

Any time up to 30 days after purchase, take it back and your contract is cancelled with no fees.

Re:Just Return It

[Sandbags]

If you return a phone, whether you opened a new contract, or simply extended a previous one, by federal law they must dissolve the changes (or creation) of the contract upon return, anytime within 30 days of purchase. You can at most be charged the prorated month's airtime you used, and in some cases (which do not apply if a device is returned defective) a restocking fee not to exceed 15% (which if you return it to apple directly, regardless of where you bought it, that is waived in any case).

Further, have you seen Anandtech's testing? This issue is irrelevent, and entirely based in eser perception of what the screen is telling them, not in RF frequency response, or the device's call quality or signal strength. Even when held, it gets better signal than other devices, and at the same signal, can make calls when others can't even connect to the tower. It;s better in every category, except that signal does drop more when held (to a value still better than older devices).

Re:Just Return It

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, I have an Iphone 4 and can reproduce the problem again, and again. It even happens through the small case I bought. But it does not happen through the bumper case, if the case is rubber it stops the problem. I'm just a little upset that I have to buy a case to make my phone work properly. It should be provided.

Re:Just Return It

[UnknowingFool]

Both Apple and AT&T have 30 day return policies. The phone has been out 1 week. Suing for emotional distress of 1 week before returning the phone smells of a quick rich lawsuit than a suit with real merit. If Apple fixes the problem with software or a recall then the lawsuit is for naught.

Re:Just Return It

[sjonke]

Make sure you read the whole article, though, because their conclusion is that the iPhone 4 has much better signal-to-noise ratio then previous iPhones, and that they experience fewer dropped calls with it, including not dropping calls in areas that always dropped before, and that in spite of this issue. At the same time they don't write the issue off either, stating that they could have avoided it all by applying a non-conductive coating to the antenna. Here's a thought, though... maybe not having a conductive coating was simply a mistake, a manufacturing flaw with *some* of the first production run? They did make some 1.7 million phones, delivered over a 3 day period. Surely some of those are defective. Even 2% defective would be 34000 phones. That's potentially quite a few youtube videos. Anandtech's iPhone 4, all one of them, seems not to have such a coating, but is that true for all iPhone 4's? Maybe the people reporting that they don't have the problem aren't just in areas with strong signals? Maybe all the people saying that they see a drop, but it isn't much of one and has never gone to zero, maybe they aren't just in strong signal areas? Maybe these people's iPhone 4's have such a coating? Do I know the answer to that? Absolute not, and neither do you, yet you declare your claim to definitively be the case, that all iPhone 4's experience the same issue, but some simply aren't seeing it because they are in such strongly covered areas. Have you been on the AT&T network? I find it hard to believe that these people are always in very strongly covered areas. I'll take a wild guess that you are another one of the people bashing the iPhone 4, who doesn't have an iPhone 4. Am I right?

Re:Just Return It

[geekoid]

If you could actually return the phone, cancel the contract and get all your money back, you would be correct.

sadly, you can't.

Re:Just Return It

[Grieviant]

Drop in wanted signal strength is not the same as interference. Interference is not so much of an issue with GSM because the channels are frequency and time multiplexed. Users don't share the same slice of spectrum at the same time as in CDMA.

Also, a signal loss of 27 dB (dB is relative, dBm is absolute, so loss is specified in dB) will result in a hell of lot more coverage reduction than 50%. Assume a path loss exponent of 4 for urban propagation (versus 2 for free space). That's a gross approximation, but one that's not usually too far off. In this case, 12 dB signal loss will halve the distance at which you can communicate with the base station. 24 dB loss would reduce your range by a factor of 4, thereby reducing your coverage area by a factor of 16. Then again, this 27 dB loss is very likely a worst case scenario, so it isn't really representative of the problems most people are seeing.

And could people stop talking about how the antenna is being short-circuited. Skin does not have zero impedance, even at these frequencies. The loss is due to a detuning of the antenna because its electromagnetic properties are being significantly modified, not completely shorted.

Re:Just Return It

[Mister Whirly]

The idea behind the lawsuit is to remind Apple that marketing poorly designed or tested products is not acceptable.

Unless they really look cool, then all is forgiven.

Re:Just Return It

[sjonke]

Umm... do you know of a company that does not state publicly that their products are great? Did I miss something when Google announced Froyo and Google TV where they stated that they products were just OK?

Re:Just Return It

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, but the ambulance chasers behind this lawsuit are more interested in making money.

Fixed that for you.

Apple already knows the phone turned out bad, and have a huge black eye. Customers will get no benefit out of this lawsuit, lawyers will make a bunch of money.

Re:Just Return It

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not exactly about the phone. Yes, you CAN return the phone, but it's too late at that point - now you're in a 2-year AT&T contract, that you then have to pay $375 to get out of. All thanks to your phone, sold to you by Apple, not working as advertised.

So then you have a choice, do you eat the $199 or $299, and the cost to get a different phone, to hold up your contractual obligation? Or do you start lighting a fire under Apple's ass to fix the phone so you can get the phone and service you paid for? AT&T blames Apple, Apple blames the consumer, so the consumer is going to have to sue to get things righted.

Please read up on consumer law. Specifically the implied warranty of "merchantability," and "fitness for a particular purpose."

An implied warranty of merchantability is a warranty implied by law that goods are reasonably fit for the general purpose for which they are sold.

An implied warranty of fitness for a particular purpose is a warranty implied by law that if a seller knows or has reason to know of a particular purpose for which some item is being purchased by the buyer, the seller is guaranteeing that the item is fit for that particular purpose.

When you buy a phone, you expect it to work under the implied warranty of merchantability. When that phone comes with a contract, it is implied that the contract is fit for the purpose of using that phone. If the phone doesn't work, then the contract is not fit for purpose.

Re:Just Return It

[Khyber]

I'm sorry, Anandtech doesn't have the EE resources that the University right behind me has.

And we've been doing extensive testing the entire week.

Anandtech is talking halfway out of their ass.

Another part of the problem is the actual antenna bridges to the casing after even the lightest sweat exposure from your hand.

Re:Just Return It

[Khyber]

"Show me a single software company that hasn't released a piece of software with known bugs, and then charged for 'version N+1'."

Epic Games, Solar Winds. Epic Games, Kilo Blaster. iD games, Commander Keen.

Oh, what, you thought I couldn't do it?

Re:Just Return It

[Khyber]

"The drop IS more pronounced, but the signal is STILL better. I call that irrelevant."

Run a bandwidth test under that degraded signal.

Watch the 3GS win versus the 4. I've been testing it all week.

I don't call it irrelevant. I call it BULLSHIT ENGINEERING.

Re:Just Return It

[Anonymous Coward]

"Its not a fault its a feature" - This is people's problem with apple.

Re:Just Return It

[Anonymous Coward]

Check it out, its very informative for those who don't have basic antenna design knowledge from EE in college. To paraphrase, it reduces signal by up to 27 dbm, which is almost 50% of normal signal range. (50 to 113 dbm). This will not effect you

And for those who haven't studied English in college, or high school, or kindergarten - that should be affect, you moronic cunt.

Re:Just Return It

[Anonymous Coward]

You didn't keep reading. The "tight grip" was a -24dB attenuation. The "natural" grip was -20dB attenuation. After calling attention to the "tight grip" as being a non-issue, the rest was discussing how bad the "natural" grip was.

Re:Just Return It

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not exactly about the phone. Yes, you CAN return the phone, but it's too late at that point - now you're in a 2-year AT&T contract, that you then have to pay $375 to get out of.

Wow. So you can just make shit up and get moded up to 4? Can you do that with anything or does the comment have to be rooted in hate?

Re:Just Return It

[Anonymous Coward]

"The drop IS more pronounced, but the signal is STILL better. I call that irrelevant."

Run a bandwidth test under that degraded signal.

Watch the 3GS win versus the 4. I've been testing it all week.

I don't call it irrelevant. I call it BULLSHIT ENGINEERING.

Anecdote is not evidence. Please write up your testing setup, scenario, results and post. It would be most helpful.

Re:Just Return It

[mikael_j]

Oh, I kept reading and I agree that it's a major issue but I just thought it was a funny bit about how some people tend to treat defects in Apple products, if rumor got out that the new iPhone's screen was prone to cracking when bumped there would be a hundred youtube videos up the next day showing people who "gently" bumped it (yet the table they placed phone on would collapse from the "gentle" bump)...

And of course there would be fanboys going "I dropped my iPhone from the fifth floor and it's still working perfectly, not a scratch!".

Re:Just Return It

[Anonymous Coward]

"The drop IS more pronounced, but the signal is STILL better. I call that irrelevant."

Run a bandwidth test under that degraded signal.

Watch the 3GS win versus the 4. I've been testing it all week.

I don't call it irrelevant. I call it BULLSHIT ENGINEERING.

Well WTF haven't you taken the phone back? Why keep a phone that's clearly making you unhappy? I call it BULLSHIT.

Re:Just Return It

[R.Mo_Robert]

A higher-than-normal return rate, with the antenna issue being the stated reason, should achieve similar results. In theory.

But, of course, most people will not return it ... because they actually like it. They just want to complain and maybe get something out of it. Perfect example: this lawsuit.

Re:Just Return It

[Anonymous Coward]

you have a month to return a cell phone w/o penalty (or at least you do here in california, which is where the lawsuit originates from). the iphone 4 has been out for 1 week. tell me again how those poor folks are stuck in a 2-year AT&T contract again....

Re:Just Return It

[DrJimbo]

What planet are these people on?

My guess is they are from planet Microsoft. MS has a history of launching surreptitious lawsuits against its competitors. For example they provide the bulk of the funding for the SCO anti-Linux lawsuit charade. Then there was the ridiculous Psystar lawsuits against Apple and then the Turbohercules claims against IBM. The ties to MS in this last two cases are not as clear but I find it hard to believe that all these high-profile wacko law suits against Microsoft's competitors are just an coincidence.

Re:Just Return It

[natehoy]

I'm not a radio geek, but...

It's only significant if you needed more than 5% of the original signal to maintain a connection. Digital signals are very much a "it works or it doesn't" sort of thing. And 95% of signal isn't a significant loss until it's the 95% you need. Your call might get a little scratchy way down in the 99.999% signal loss range, though.

My AT&T Blackberry has a function (hold the ALT key and tap N, M, L, L in sequence) that changes the "bars" display to a "signal loss" display (in -db). If the signal falls below about -110db, I lose the tower. I have no idea what they are using as a baseline for comparison, but I lose signal at somewhere between -110 and -115, so it's probably the 113dbm you refer to. So if I read -110db, then I have almost no signal left (I can still make a poor-but-understandable call and receive data slowly, it's just really likely I'll lose signal at some point). This is despite the fact that I've lost 99.999997% percent of the original signal (rough amateur calculation).

Up here in the hinterlands, a -75db signal is considered "fairly strong" under normal circumstances. Even though I've lost a hell of a lot more than 95% of the original signal, I can still make a perfectly clear call at -75 (which if my assumption is correct about the baseline means I'm receiving about 38dbm of the original 113dbm signal). Even if I had the iPhone 4 and experienced the problem as described, I'd still have about 11 dbm left to make a call (which would probably be largely unnoticeable, maybe a little light stuttering or quality loss here and there, but the call probably wouldn't drop).

However, at home, I need a cell repeater to get signal inside the house. Since that's a much weaker transmitter, I regularly get about -85 to -90 readings in some parts of the house, meaning I'm routinely running at levels where a -27db signal adjustment would mean signal would drop well below a detectable threshold and "bye bye tower".

"Full bars" is considered anything above about -75 on my phone (about 40db or so of signal). In other words, my Blackberry figures I have full signal after I've lost somewhere around 99.9998% of the base signal from the tower. And I can lose 95% of that and not even break a sweat.

So it's quite possible on my Blackberry to go from "minimal" full bars to very little signal with a 27db signal loss, but it's also quite possible to maintain three or even all four bars when suffering from the same 27db signal loss if the base signal is better than about 67db. Anecdotal evidence using signal bars is largely useless unless you know the numbers behind the bars, in other words, because the range for "full signal" is really, really large. The iPhone may translate signal to bars very differently, so your iMileage may iVary.

If I go to any decent-sized city, I routinely see -65 and even -60 sometimes, occasionally even lower, which means an additional loss of 27 would still make my signal stronger than I would get on a good day in my back yard at home.

Re:Just Return It

[DannyO152]

No, the people behind the lawsuit are interested in collecting some money, preferably via settlement because they don't really want the jury to hear the answer to the question: "so, why didn't you return your phone and get your money back?"

Re:Just Return It

[Anonymous Coward]

27dBm is huge, since dB is a logarithmic scale.
And antenna receive sensitivity is normally -96dBm, so you will be Affected even if you do get a normally strong signal.

Re:Just Return It

[Anonymous Coward]

You can get out of the AT&T contract 30 days from initiation if you return the phone -- no questions asked.

Re:Just Return It

[scwks]

when talking power, it's 10*log, not 20*log

Re:Just Return It

[Anonymous Coward]

steve, you have been posting here all day. take a small break.

Re:Just Return It

[Achromatic1978]

"Because I've heard numerous reports that in Apple's eyes, it is not a defect, and that employees in Apple at AT&T stores, and customer service have been instructed not to treat this reason as valid for return."

Re:Just Return It

[Achromatic1978]

Which unnamed University would this be? Does it have a name? Does it have any intention of publishing findings, or is just an unreviewed distraction by a couple of EE students?

Re:Just Return It

[Achromatic1978]

THIS JUST IN! Fanboi / conspiracy theorist DrJimbo says that this lawsuit is being run from behind the scenes by our old nemesis, Microsoft!

What planet are you from?

Re:Just Return It

[shutdown -p now]

The reason why Apple are getting so much flak for this (part of it undeserved, part spot on) is because of how they are positioning themselves in their marketing.

As far as most discussions about Apple products go, they are discussions about features. You know, the old stories about whether casual users actually need or don't need MMS, copy/paste, Flash etc. Another popular topic is whether Apple products are overpriced or not. However, the implicit assumption is always that what Apple products can do, they do extraordinarily well, and hardware, even if overpriced, is high-quality. Overall, I think that there is a consensus that Apple products truly "just work".

Consequently, when something like this antenna story happens, which breaks the "just works" image, it's a big deal. If the same thing would happen to an MS products, people would just shrug and yawn. If it'd happen to a Google product, people would crack jokes about perennial betas. But Apple doesn't get that luxury. It doesn't help that their advertising also makes fun of competitors over those same issues. And now when Jobs says "just don't hold it that way", it's eerily reminiscent of "just don't click there" mentality that was (and still is) so pervasive in Windows land, especially mid-90s-to-early-00s (Win9x era), and which is cited as a major reason by many Apple converts - of course people are pissed off.

If you go around telling everyone just how awesome and better than anyone else you are, and if you actually manage to convince them of that, then even a minor slip will seriously tarnish your reputation; much more so than if you're another guy from the street. For Apple, it's just the downside that comes with the way they won over the market. Given their profit figures, I doubt they're much concerned about it, though...

Re:Just Return It

[Thumper_SVX]

Actually, one thing I was impressed by was Leo Laporte actually demonstrating it on his streamed "This Week In Tech" podcast... though it may also have been Macbreak Weekly. If you were watching the stream then he actually demonstrated the problem occurring and it was eye opening. It also occurred to me that I hold my phone EXACTLY the way he did to recreate the problem.

I have a 3GS but normally use a Bluetooth headset. However, those times I do hold my iPhone I would hold it that way in my left hand. As a result, yeah... the iPhone 4 is not a great option for me unless I'm using Bluetooth.

All this being said, I'm sticking with my 3GS for now. It does everything I need of it, and while I'm still not a fan of the locked down platform there's no doubt in my mind that it's still better than the Windows Mobile devices I had before in the most critical element; making a call. WinMo in the last few years has become "MobileME"; bloated, unstable and generally not fun to use. That last iteration (WinMo 6.5 or something?) was horrendous as a phone, though as a portable computer it was actually pretty good. However, stability problems plagued it when I used it. Since I've owned my 3GS I think I've rebooted it 4 times beyond firmware upgrades, and now I'm running iOS 4 on it so I get all the software goodness of the iPhone 4 without the antenna problems of it.

Re:Just Return It

[Khyber]

Scenario - clean room, no Faraday cages, as far away from all interference as possible. Testing grounds, University of Redlands Quad.

Test, three users each of iPhone4 and 3G and 3GS stand out in the quad, and try to get signal, both cellular and wifi, while holding the phone in different manners and orientations.

We shut down the school radio facilities for as clean a test as we could manage out in the quad with as little OTA interference as possible.

The iPhone 4 failed all tests except one (held upside-down with the antenna 'topside') while the previous generations could connect and surf or make calls relatively effortlessly. The iPhone4 dropped two calls. All it took was putting the iPhone4 close to any source of water and signal practically DIES, whether that source be a glass full of water or the water in your body.

Re:Just Return It

[Anonymous Coward]

No it's just Khyber Kitsune's daily 'I'm a research head for a multinational corporation' chatter, disregard it. He's one of slashdot's finest piss takers these days.

Re:Just Return It

[Sandbags]

Confirmed they're all on the same tower and frequency using APple exclusive diagnostic tools or electronics to measure and confirm frequency response? Doubt you did that.

School radio facilities should not interfere in AT&T airspace (if they do, AT&T would be crawling up your ass (also would love to se a written statement from your school confirming this was done, as I call BS on that idea completely).

Water behaves nothing like tissue in regards to SAR, interference, or more. Water can actually amplify some signals, and refracts and causes interference with others, depending on angle and size of water body.

Did you use a large sample size of iPhones? doubt that too.

HOw about comparing that to some folks with actual signal measuring equipment, professional lab setups, not to mention the FCC and each government's equivalent to that in more than 20 countries all testing the device and reporting no complaints.

Class Action Lawsuit

[Little Brother]

I'm already seeing all the BS going on about how a class-action lawsuit only helps the lawyers at the expense of the plaintiffs. I do not know if this is usually the case or not, but the only Class-Action lawsuit I have ever been a part of, (interestingly against apple) resulted in a solution that I found quite suitable for the offense.

I didn't get a dime, but I didn't want one. I wanted the system I paid for to work. I got a box in the mail with express shipping paid for me to ship my laptop back to Apple. Apple replaced my defective motherboard, and shipped my computer back. All at no charge to me. I did not even pay shipping either direction.

I bought a product that didn't work as it should. I signed up on the Class-Action, I got a product that worked as it should.

BUT LAWYERS ARE TEH EVILZ! CLASS ACTION LAWSUITS ARE ABOUT LINING TEH LAWYERZ POCKETS NOT GETTING ANYTHING TO THE PLAINTIFF!

Re:Class Action Lawsuit

[eagee]

Ummm so the result of the class-action lawsuit is that Apple had to do a standard warranty repair? I mean, wait a minute - are you a lawyer?

Re:Class Action Lawsuit

[wjousts]

Don't be silly. If people have to think beyond empty platitudes like "all lawyers are evil", who the hell knows what will happen. Perhaps they'll start wondering if the phrase "all politicians lie" is a bit of a simplification; and maybe it isn't such a good thing to throw that out to avoid actually thinking about the issues.

Re:Class Action Lawsuit

[Rogerborg]

And in this case, it seems that Apple could resolve the issues by posting out a 2" strip of electrical tape.

Re:Class Action Lawsuit

[elrous0]

That's the exception not the rule. For every class action that you know you were in, there are probably 100 others that you were in that you didn't even know about. You didn't get jack from any of those other 100. And if your product from one of those ever stops working/explodes/catches on fire/etc. and you try to get it fixed, the company can tell you "Sorry, you missed out, we don't have to fix it now--and you can't sue us now either."

Re:Class Action Lawsuit

[Flamora]

The problem is that they do not perceive it as an issue. Even their internal paperwork to employees at their retail stores emphasizes the whole "this is not a problem, do not admit that it is a problem, do not offer warranty repairs for this, do not offer anything free" mindset that they're pushing. For a company as seemingly devoted to the "user experience" as Apple is, this is a laughably embarrassing position to take.

Re:Class Action Lawsuit

[Rogerborg]

The problem is that they do not perceive it as an issue.

Perhaps "they" don't. After all, if Steve says it's not a problem, then it cannot be one. What are they going to believe: the evidence of their own eyes, or the Word of Steve?

Re:Class Action Lawsuit

[jim_v2000]

Meh, I'm not impressed with your example. If you bought the laptop and it didn't work out of the box, you could have taken it back. If you bought it and it failed during the warranty period, you could have had Apple fix it. If it failed outside the warranty, too bad. That's the time period that you agreed the device should be covered by Apple when you bought the thing.

Re:Class Action Lawsuit

[kimvette]

That is an excellent and probably the very best possible solution.

I hope in the instance of the Apple iPhone4 class action suit, Apple quickly pushes out a redesign of the case (why can't the case be a clear polymer with black and metallic inserts, so the antennae are at least insulated from shorts?) and issues field replacement units to stores, and issues a recall. The cost would be fairly minimal relative to the amount of GOOD PR Apple will gain by providing the sort of customer care they purport to provide. They're known for stellar customer service, but the reality is, as proven by defective Mac Pro power supplies, a 52%+ failure rate of Macbook Pros (a few years back, as you experienced firsthand), crappy iMacs (the old round pieces of turd), and now, an iPhone which doesn't live up to its primary advertised purpose, they give crappy customer service.

Now is the opportunity to live up to their claim and allow iPhone4 exchanges for new iPhone4 units with redesigned cases, or to issue FRU kits to the Apple stores and replace the cases for free. Yes, it will cost labor, but it will strengthen customer loyalty and help to increase market share.

Steve Jobs' response is absurd at best, especially when the ads show the iPhone being held exactly how he says not to. Who DOESN'T hold a phone like that, except for headset users?

Re:Class Action Lawsuit

[phantomfive]

The best part from the article I think is this:

The class action suit ..... asks the court to issue an injunction on Apple and AT&T, forcing them to "undertake an informational campaign" to let the general public know the "wrongfulness" of the companies' practices.

I think Steve Jobs should also be forced to dance the hokey pokey in public and declare that aluminum unibodies are really not what it's all about. Is it too late to join the lawsuit?

Re:Class Action Lawsuit

[Anonymous Coward]

i think you need to reexamine the venn diagram of politicians and lawyers. the vast majority of high ranking officials are lawyers. they make the high level decisions about science, industry, technology, medicine, etc. and are some of the least qualified working humans to make such decisions. you'd have to go to the DMV to find a lower functioning subset of humanity.

Re:Class Action Lawsuit

[Sandbags]

It should be noted, in the case of the MacBook motherboard replacement, the suit was settled before it entered the court. Apple essentially gave the machine a lifetime motherboard replacement warranty (actually I think they capped it at 5 years, still way more than generous), and apple already covers laptop and portable device waranty shipping both ways if you live more than 60 minutes from an apple store.

Re:Class Action Lawsuit

[jo_ham]

How does having products that fail equate to crappy customer service?

I had a lemon PowerMac G5 (half working ethernet port - would not work on GigE switches), and Apple were enormously helpful and even after a logic board swap that did not cure it, determined that the problem was an incompatibility with the switch, so they shipped me a GigE expansion card (at no cost) to solve the issue. Not ideal, but it worked - the next refresh of the logic board cured the original problem.

My sister went through a few iBook power supplies - Apple replaced them under warranty.

After the old design-flaw iBook PSUs, my friend was given a new, redesigned one (for free) instead of the original part that came with the machine.

Apple's customer service has always been good in my experience, and I have seen it many times (such is the nature of having multiple machines over 10 years, and being the go-to person for support for friends and family). Their products are not perfect, and as with any mass produced consumer item you are going to have lemons in the mix. It is impossible to (economically) turn out a 100% perfect product line. When you have a problem, they are there to help.

No doubt they are redesigning the iPhone 4 as we speak to correct the issue, and trying numerous different methods (personally I would put a clear coat of varnish/epoxy on the surface of the antenna, but this may wear off over time and still have issues with signal attenuation due to the way the antenna is designed). I am sure whatever they do eventually, warranty-exchanged iPhones will be the new model - it has always been this way. For their computers, they will repair it three times under Apple care and if it still is not fixed after that, they will just give you a new machine of the same type. So, what you're suggesting they do as part of their warranty is actually already Apple policy.

Re:Class Action Lawsuit

[geekoid]

If it's the issue I'm thinking of, Apple repeatedly denied there being a problem and refused warranty repair. so his lawyer got him what he wanted because Apple was wrong. Personally I think he should have gotten a few bucks for his time.

Re:Class Action Lawsuit

[jimicus]

If Apple (or {INSERT_COMPANY_HERE}) insist that there's nothing wrong with your product and hence refuse to repair it under warranty, then this makes some sense.

Re:Class Action Lawsuit

[sjonke]

If you have to give your phone an intentional, awkward, and physically painful death grip in order to really trigger the problem, as noted by anandtech, exactly how much of a problem is it really? If your phone is giving you a signal in places you never had one before, dropping fewer calls, and providing substantially superior call quality, is the design flawed? Apple's unflawed designs must be unbelievably amazing! Maybe even magical! ;^)

Re:Class Action Lawsuit

[sjonke]

As demonstrated repeatedly in the past week, people don't have to think beyond, "I saw it on YouTube", so I wouldn't count on a lack of sillyness any time soon.

Re:Class Action Lawsuit

[misexistentialist]

Sometimes thought isn't helpful. Thinking about your imminent death, worrying about the reliability of gravity, wondering whether 100.000000000% of lawyers are evil, etc. is mostly a waste of time.

Re:Class Action Lawsuit

[wjousts]

Congratulations on completely proving my point.

Re:Class Action Lawsuit

[Atario]

Spot on.

I was party to a class-action lawsuit against a former employer. Long story short, I ended up with a check for over $500, and didn't have to lift a finger.

But yeah, class-action lawsuits are totally worthless, right?

Re:Class Action Lawsuit

[eagee]

Right :) That's how I feel - they should cover some kind of pain/suffering fee for using his time up on a product that doesn't work.

Re:Class Action Lawsuit

[rjstanford]

Steve Jobs' response is absurd at best, especially when the ads show the iPhone being held exactly how he says not to. Who DOESN'T hold a phone like that, except for headset users?

If you read the Anandtech review, you'll see that holding the phone normally, while it has an affect, has a much milder one (and one that's more in line with other phones). Also, even when held in the worst possible way, the 4 seems to have as good or better connectivity than the 3G did (although the #bars display is moderately misleading, since the 4 works better at 1 bar than the 3G did at >1 bar - similar to the light output between a 60W incandescent bulb vs a 30W CFL (which would be stupid-bright at half the power)).

Re:Class Action Lawsuit

[Achromatic1978]

Wow, really? "If company lies, in the face of incontrovertible evidence to the contrary, that their product is defective, prevaricates, stalls, delays, deceives, even willingly and knowingly charges owners of said defective product money to fix a problem, then, when caught out, they should be told to be good boys, and do what they should have all along, and not punished further, after all, being made to do what they should have but didn't is already punishment enough...."

Re:Class Action Lawsuit

[soppsa]

A Cory Doctrow fan defending lawers on slashdot? lol

Re:Impossible to connect to AT&T's network any

[Wovel]

Did your brain shut down after the first line of his comment?

Obligatory Apple Product Cycle post

[Itchyeyes]

I believe this put's us right about here:

A minor, rarely occurring flaw in the device begins to be discussed in the Apple support forums. Whiny, artistic types post lengthy diatribes about how this terrible design flaw has made the device unusable and scarred them emotionally. Electronic petitions are created demanding that Apple replace the devices for free, plus pay for counseling to help traumatized users overcome their emotional distress.

In the Apple Product Cycle

Re:Obligatory Apple Product Cycle post

[bannable]

You can hardly call a flaw present in every iPhone 4 they've sold to be rare.

Re:Obligatory Apple Product Cycle post

[Itchyeyes]

I didn't call it anything. That's from a page made about 8 years ago that applies strikingly well, to this day, to just about every Apple product launch.

Re:Obligatory Apple Product Cycle post

[bannable]

My mistake. Funny how little the New Boss has changed in 8 years...

Re:Obligatory Apple Product Cycle post

[Anonymous Coward]

:

... Whiny, artistic types ...

Isn't that Apple's target market? Don't p.o. your target market.

Re:Obligatory Apple Product Cycle post

[Anonymous Coward]

I believe this put's us right about here:

Okay, seriously? Taco made one glaring error with his apostrophe's in one post. But that's a joke that's been done for way too long regardless. Give it up.

Unless, of course, you actually ARE an illiterate moron...

Re:Obligatory Apple Product Cycle post

[Aboroth]

What other product as Apple released that had a flaw as bad as this? This isn't just a flaw but displays gross incompetence on the part of the engineers involved.
I'm seriously asking, because I'd like to know what made that part of the "Apple Product Cycle".

Re:Obligatory Apple Product Cycle post

[david_thornley]

Looking at the reports, it would seem that not all those phones have the problem. The original blog post I saw, referred from Slashdot, said they could reproduce the problem on one of their two iPhone 4s. Nor are the reports of the problem swamping the Internet, despite 1.7 million sales in the first three days. It doesn't look like everybody actually has a problem.

Re:Obligatory Apple Product Cycle post

[bennomatic]

I remember that. One of the entries is something about slipping ship dates, and while I know that they still occasionally have problems, it's nothing like it was in the mid and late 90s before the return of Jobs. i remember them coming out with systems and basically losing 25% of potential sales due to poor supply chain management. These days, they ship units--for the most part--on time and in significant volumes, and with reasonable distributions.

RF energy

[FudRucker]

if just holding the phone in your hand causes the iphone to lose reception and transmission, guess where all that RF energy is going, right in to your hand, the idiots should have put an external antenna stub on the top of it plus a plug on the back or side so you can connect a magnetic antenna from the roof of your autombile & a hands free setup kit, but i guess steve jobs was so wrapped up in form and fashion he did not even consider functionality.

Re:RF energy

[Stumbles]

But but... an antenna stub would have De-Applefied its prettiness and we all know all Apple lovers WOULD NEVER buy something "ugly"... even if it meant the product not working right.

Re:RF energy

[BlackHawk-666]

Steve designed a nice little turtleneck sweater which is an optional accessory that takes care of the problem.

Re:RF energy

[joh]

It's not that there is RF energy going somewhere else, it's the antenna getting detuned if you bridge the gap between the 3G antenna and the WiFi antenna by pressing a nicely wetted and salty hand over it.

I certainly think that this antenna design has its flaws. It also has it good points (very good reception when you don't bridge that gap, nicely integrated frame, sleek profile) though.

Re:RF energy

[FudRucker]

what a load of crap! as an avid radio enthusiast for over 20 years, i know damn well touching an antenna with a conductive object (in this case your hand) that RF energy will go in to it,

Re:RF energy

[L4t3r4lu5]

[Insert regulator] guidelines mandate that the antenna be at the base of the handset, as far away from the brain as possible. Putting the antenna in the top is not possible.

Like I said before. Why didn't Steve say "What? You make calls holding it to your ear? How 1990s! Plug in those trendy white earphones we gave you as a free gift for buying our wonderful new iPhone and make calls with your hands free to use your iPad!"

Re:RF energy

[bluefoxlucid]

as an avid radio enthusiast for over 20 years, i know damn well

I've heard so many things about computers start this way, and about cars, about just about anything. People like to see a mass-observed effect, come up with a naive explanation, and take it as "everybody knows..." and ... you know, some hobbyist groups are filled with witless morons that believe all kinds of bullshit, sometimes because it makes a workable model (perfect association problem-to-cause, incorrect causation with no real correlation cause-to-problem), sometimes because it satisfied a corner case once and everyone took it as law blindly (Aristotlism).

Re:RF energy

[FudRucker]

what i said about RF and antennas is true, common knowledge among people that know about radio, just call your local radio or TV station and ask to talk to their technicians if you dont believe me, or talk to one of your local ham radio operators.

Re:RF energy

[LynnwoodRooster]

[Insert regulator] guidelines mandate that the antenna be at the base of the handset, as far away from the brain as possible. Putting the antenna in the top is not possible.

Sorry, the regulations specify SAR versus angle, but do not mandate placement of the antenna. It seems all other new phones (HTC EVO, for example) are able to pass SAR limits with antennas at the top of the phone. Of course, they also put the antennas inside, covered with plastic, too...

Re:RF energy

[LynnwoodRooster]

It's Apple - function follows form.

Re:RF energy

[bluefoxlucid]

Just don't back up your statements with "I play with myself while using this stuff, I know what I'm talking about!" Show some real credentials or citations; armchair experts are the woefully stupid.

It's common knowledge among super leet gamers that you can overclock a CPU to any speed with zero problems by raising the VCORE and adding water cooling (at least, it was for a while). Unfortunately this is woefully stupid. There are other factors besides heat that limit a chip's behavior.

Car enthusiasts have a huge array of "X gets you more power" mantras, like how a common fuel rail always gets you more power, or how a bigger exhaust pipe gets you more power, etc. Most of them miss things like fuel pressure regulators, air intake dynamics, or exhaust manifold sizes. The best example is the cold air intake, of course because cold air is denser than hot air and thus you get more air this way; of course the throttle has a tendency to ice up, so the coolant system passes through the throat, meaning your cold air is heated to near engine temperature.

I of course have a technicians license and I studied physics; I know what shit does. Connecting yourself (or any other conductive body) to an antenna makes you part of the antenna; and as a rather large body, you're an electron sink (a ground source) rather than much of an antenna. So the antenna detunes and loses power, to some degree.

DOS 4.0

[BlackHawk-666]

Nooo, it's DOS 4.0 all over again. DOS 3.3 was a great release and then they brought out DOS 4.0 which was so bad I had to wait till DOS 5.0 before I could upgrade. Stick with 3.x releases, they're always the best :D

"Difficult or impossible" is a lie

[SuperKendall]

I can see where perhaps there would be a case over this design flaw, but to claim it's "difficult or impossible" to maintain a call is simply a lie. In everyday use, not being careful how I hold the phone at all, I have had no issues with calls with the new phone.

If you make the claims too absurd the case will not have a good chance of success.

Re:"Difficult or impossible" is a lie

[jeffmeden]

Are you perhaps in an area where reception is already reliable? There has been suggestion of not only the obvious trait of it only exhibiting when signals are weak, but also exhibiting when conflicting information about different towers is used to decide which to communicate with. It could well be that only quarter or less of AT&Ts asserted "coverage area" is susceptible to this problem and users not in that area "cannot reproduce it at all", but that's still way way way too much. There are more than enough identical reports out there for it to be a case of delusion or overt pickyness.

Re:"Difficult or impossible" is a lie

[Hijacked Public]

Yes but that is a quote from a complaint and it needs to be a damning as it can be as long as there is a kernel of truth to it.

I'm in an area where all the carriers have spotty signals. I am left handed. I have an iphone 4. If I purposely bridge the gap in question it degrades the reception enough to prevent me from making calls when I'm in an area with a weak signal. So indeed there are situations where the issue makes it 'difficult or impossible'.

Luckily for me I don't naturally hold the phone that way, but it would indeed be annoying if I did. I've been using a cell phone for 15 years and would not be interested in adapting to a new phone's peculiarities.

Re:"Difficult or impossible" is a lie

[SuperKendall]

Are you perhaps in an area where reception is already reliable?

Come on man, this is AT&T. Where would that area be exactly?

I've made calls in areas where the reception is down at one bar, and it still works fine. And in fact overall, is better than the previous iPhone.

Sometimes I can replicate the data loss thing shown on Youtube if I grip the phone just right. But not other times - I actually chalked it down more to levels of perspiration than coverage quality.

But right handed phone use would not naturally trigger this issue anyway because of how the phone is held, so again the claim is way overdone.

Re:"Difficult or impossible" is a lie

[fast turtle]

I'm not a lefty, yet I hold my phone with my left hand. Rarely do I even bother to hold the phone with my right unless I've been talking for a while. Instead I keep my right hand free to pick my nose, scratch my ass, shake hands, open doors, drive, shift gears, pucnch idiots in nose and everything else. My left hand is for phone use only.

Re:"Difficult or impossible" is a lie

[jim_v2000]

Most phones do that. My Samsung phone loses signal strength if I hold it a certain way. There was a whole thread on Reddit yesterday where people were confirming the same affect on dozens of different phones. This is nothing specific with the iPhone. People are just being retards like usual.

Re:"Difficult or impossible" is a lie

[Anonymous Coward]

Like any antenna, it also depends on the signal strength in your area.

Ever notice when you're driving around with a faint radio signal that it gets marginally better, then totally cuts out? But switch to a strong station and it always sounds great. Same with your phone - attenuating a strong signal isn't a big deal. But do that a little farther away from the tower and you drop your call.

Congratulations on being in a zone with a great signal. Too bad we're not all that lucky.

Re:"Difficult or impossible" is a lie

[wfolta]

No, most reports out there talk about looking at bars and seeing them drop dramatically. NOT about actually having dropped calls.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/3794/the-iphone-4-review/2

Re:"Difficult or impossible" is a lie

[Pinky's Brain]

"I got two phones, though: the other one is for Brenna. The whole reason I got the phone for her was that the camera takes good pictures and decent video. But it doesn't seem to work particularly well as a phone, so the rest of it is ridiculous. She hasn't mentioned the screen once, for example, even though it be mad crizp; the A4 can fuck itself. Aluminosilicate probably isn't even a real word."

"This is not true for Brenna, and the content immediately above would make her angry. She sees that phone the same way she would see a hat, or a ladle. If you had a ladle and you tried to get soup with the ladle but the soup came out, or fell out, or whatever the culinary equivalent of a lost call is, she would try to break it over her knee before throwing it in the garbage. She was calling the bank to get her password reset, and it kept dropping the call right when the man was saying "your password is,"

Re:"Difficult or impossible" is a lie

[SuperKendall]

Same with your phone - attenuating a strong signal isn't a big deal. But do that a little farther away from the tower and you drop your call.

Except that regardless of signal strength, I still get better call quality and fewer dropped calls than with the older phone.

In part why it's not an issue for phone calls is because the worst problem is when you bridge the two metal bands - even that doesn't always cause an issue, but when it does I agree a strong local signal can overcome it. However that does not come into play for a phone call because the way you hold a phone doesn't trigger that issue. It's really more of a problem for data where you'd naturally cup the device in the left hand.

Even for data use I've not had many problems, just occasional drops in speed.

Re:"Difficult or impossible" is a lie

[Anonymous Coward]

So, since it doesn't happen to you, it isn't a problem? Also, I'm right handed, but I hold my smartphone in my left hand so I can manipulate the touch screen with my right. When I make a call, the phone is in my left hand.

Re:"Difficult or impossible" is a lie

[Sandbags]

In fact, in scientific testing released yesterday, even though when held "wrong" there is a 19db drop off in signal strenth, this was still a stronger signal than the 3GS was capable of, or the Nexus One. Further, at the same signal strength, the iPhone 4 can make and place calls, while maintaining a data connection, when the other two can't even associate to the tower. It IS a far superior anteanna, even when effected. This is entirely a user perception issue, relying on 5 bars on a screen that are completely arbitrary to actual signal strenth.

Now, what I'd Like to see, is fome FCC guidance on exactly how many bars should be shown at specific dB measurements, so this confusion can finally end, but that's no fault of Apple's (AT&T specifies the bar scores).

Re:"Difficult or impossible" is a lie

[Sandbags]

Love the sig... Got to see Voltaire live at SPWF 2010. Awesome.

Re:"Difficult or impossible" is a lie

[LynnwoodRooster]

Instead I keep my right hand free to pick my nose, scratch my ass, shake hands, open doors, drive, shift gears, pucnch idiots in nose and everything else. My left hand is for phone use only.

Yeah, if we ever meet don't be surprised if I hand you a pair of gloves!

Re:"Difficult or impossible" is a lie

[natehoy]

My left hand is for phone use only.

Just as well you can't get porn on the phone, then.

Re:"Difficult or impossible" is a lie

[natehoy]

True, my wife's Nokia 5800 will lose a marginal (1-2 bar) signal if she holds it the wrong way, but I think the issue here is the design of the iPhone 4 that makes it susceptible to very significant drops in signal, not the fact that it's subject to the laws of physics like every other phone.

Most phones have antennae that are shielded behind plastic or some other non-conductive material. You introduce signal loss by blocking the signal with your hand or body, but you don't lose a LOT of signal. The signal loss can be significant, and can easily bring you from a marginal signal to signal loss, or a good signal to a marginal one, but it generally won't bring you from a good signal down to tower loss.

The iPhone's antenna is not covered with anything. You could easily touch both antenna surfaces and make your body an extension of the antenna, thereby mucking up the signal sensitivity of the antenna. This is a much more profound loss of signal than simply blocking the antenna using your body as an inefficient shield, this is changing the antenna characteristics entirely.

Assuming the stories are true, which is a big "if", the iPhone 4 can potentially lose about 27 dbm as a worst case. For my AT&T Blackberry, that's about three bars' worth of signal if I'm down below the 5th bar. So you could go from 3 bars to no signal if you hold the phone wrong. That type of signal loss is in a completely different league than "I dropped from two bars to one bar", or "I lost a one-bar call because I held the phone wrong".

Fortunately, it can be solved by simply covering the iPhone with a very thin case that prevents skin-to-antenna contact. That would make the iPhone 4 subject to only the same common shielding issues every other phone on the planet has. Any Apple user affected by this could order an under-$4 skin from Meritline and make the problem go away. http://www.meritline.com/iphone-4-skin-case---p-46556.aspx - and I mean, c'mon, if you spent $200 to $600 on the phone to start with, what's $4 including shipping to make it work better?

Or Apple could buy these suckers in bulk for probably $1.50 each and make them available in all of their stores or ship you one for the cost of shipping (about 50 cents, probably) and make the problem go away entirely.

I'm not saying it's a FATAL flaw, in fact it seems like the antenna design is such that even with a 27dbm signal loss it's still better than all previous-generation phones. But it is a shame they put so much work into building an awesome antenna/radio system and apparently didn't let it reach its full potential by (for example) simply putting a thin layer of plastic over it.

Re:"Difficult or impossible" is a lie

[SuperKendall]

Anecdote: Strike One.

Try to derive a trend from a single data point (it was her first iPhone so you have no idea how an older one would compare in the same situation); Strike Two - Eight, because it's such an egregious error.

Re:"Difficult or impossible" is a lie

[Fahrvergnuugen]

If you're left handed, wouldn't you hold the phone in your right hand and use your left hand to tap the interface?

Re:"Difficult or impossible" is a lie

[Pinky's Brain]

Re-read your original post and think about what evidence you used to back up your assertion that the claims were absurd.

Overblown but still an issue

[acomj]

Ars has some good analysis. Seeing the games companies play with signal bars apples are oddly accurate... and logarithmic...

http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2010/06/putting-hard-numbers-to-the-iphone-4-antenna-issue.ars

I don't know what % of iphone users use cases, but I'd imagine its a fairly high %.

Re:Overblown but still an issue

[bannable]

It's too bad Ars doesn't have any images showing what situations may actually bridge the antennas, but doesn't make it any less of an interesting read.

The only way...

[ap0]

The only way I can reproduce the problem is to hold the phone in a way I will never, ever hold it (holding this way obscures a large portion of the screen to hold it in a way that affects my signal). I suppose it could be a design defect if it actually negatively impacted me. What impacts me more is the awful AT&T reception I get at my office -- it's almost unusable there.

My guess on the outcome? Bumpers for everyone! I'm sure spending a dollar per phone (which is about what I'm guessing bumpers for the iPhone 4 cost to manufacture) is a bargain compared to having to repair or replace a few million phones.

Re:The only way...

[EEPROMS]

try it costs apple 9c for each bumper, I work for a company that buys products in china and these things are that cheap.

ATT's return policy

[Wiarumas]

ATT has a return policy where you can exchange a phone for another one within 30 days:

http://www.wireless.att.com/cell-phone-service/legal/return-policy.jsp

Re:ATT's return policy

[bannable]

So what are you going to do? Exchange your iPhone 4 for another iPhone 4... which has the exact same flaw?

Re:ATT's return policy

[Wiarumas]

ATT has other phones. Exchange it for a 3GS if you are stuck on the iPhone.

Re:ATT's return policy

[bannable]

Why would I want to exchange it for a 3GS if what I want is the *new* 4? Design flaw or not, the product isn't working as advertised. There's an interesting review of the problem in an Ars article a few posts above this one.

Re:ATT's return policy

[IANAAC]

Why would I want to exchange it for a 3GS if what I want is the *new* 4? Design flaw or not, the product isn't working as advertised.

The lawsuit would surely take much longer than 30 days. Why would you even contemplate the continued use a product that doesn't work as advertised? All to have the latest, greatest yet defective product from Apple?

Re:ATT's return policy

[jim_v2000]

When did you become entitled to use an iPhone 4? Get a different phone.

Re:ATT's return policy

[nedlohs]

The *new* 4 doesn't work. There is no option to get it to work as advertised.

A magically version isn't going to pop into existance just because you want to have it.

You can return it and cancel the plan. Or you can swap it for a different phone and keep teh plan. Or you can keep it and the plan and hope it gets fixed.

Seems really srange to want something so badly, when you know it doesn't work...

Re:ATT's return policy

[Aboroth]

I don't own an IPhone nor do I want one, but that isn't a good solution. They sell this product as the "ultimate phone" and get you to sign a 2 year contract explicitly because you want this super-phone for a reasonable price, despite the fact it is with the worst carrier in America. Then the phone turns out to suck, so you exchange it. Great. Now you are stuck with a 2 year contract with AT&T, and have a phone that you could have probably used on a much better carrier. Oh boy.

Re:ATT's return policy

[CoryD]

"Entitled?" I'd imagine when he paid for it.

Re:ATT's return policy

[IANAAC]

Seems really srange to want something so badly, when you know it doesn't work...

It's called blind fanboyism. Happens with all sorts of products, not just from Apple.

Re:ATT's return policy

[Wiarumas]

At this point, everybody's choice is to exchange the phone for another or stick with the (broken) iPhone 4 and hope for the best. I agree its not a good solution, but it is the best solution. I doubt they will let you get out of the contract since the contract is an agreement on the plan, not the phone.

Re:ATT's return policy

[Anonymous Coward]

not all iphones seem to be affected by this. i have tried repeatedly to get this loss of signal to work on an iphone 4 and had no luck in various locations.

Re:ATT's return policy

[jo_ham]

Indeed, look how many people stuck doggedly to Linux, despite the car crash that was Linux audio, until it was fixed.

Re:ATT's return policy

[bannable]

I've always considered a form of mental lock-in, similar in a way to the relationship between Microsoft and businesses.

Re:ATT's return policy

[bannable]

Not that I've bought one myself - or any Apple product ever for that matter - but that was my point, yes. :)

Re:ATT's return policy

[jim_v2000]

And if he's not happy with it, he should return it and get a different one.

Re:ATT's return policy

[narcc]

despite the fact it is with the worst carrier in America.

I really don't think that's a fair criticism. A few years ago, AT&T purchased Cellular One (my carrier) turning me into an instant customer. My experience with them so far has been excellent.

I've not had any issues with dropped calls. (While they have happened on occasion, the frequency is extraordinarily low -- less than 1 a month.)

I've only been without a data connection once, and that was the fault of my phone -- removing and replacing the battery resolved the issue.

I've not once been without signal, even at my place of work; where the Verizon phones only seem to work in a few random spots outside. (Which is reason enough for me to avoid Verizon!)

To top it off, customer service has handled every issue I've had (switching phones, address changes, etc.) quickly and easily.

I'm beginning to wonder if the dissatisfaction iPhone users are experiencing is truly carrier related...

Re:ATT's return policy

[jim_v2000]

Buying something doesn't mean that the company must bend over backwards to make it work exactly how you think it should, especially when they have a return policy. If you don't like their product, return it and get something else.

Re:ATT's return policy

[CoryD]

This isn't about bending over backward to make the customer happy. This is about selling a defective product to begin with. No where on the box does it say, "You cannot hold the device like a normal human being would or you'll interrupt/halve your signal." The customer is asking for a device that functions correctly. Not for a company to bend over backward to to appease a whimsical request.

Re:ATT's return policy

[ncy]

yea, but they charge a re-stocking fee, as stated in link. that's losing $35 for a mistake that shouldn't have even happened in the first place, if the phone is defective or just plain out sucks. had to argue with them that they didn't mention that to me before the supervisor waived the fee. :P

Re:ATT's return policy

[Anonymous Coward]

Too bad you can't exchange their network for a better one...

Re:ATT's return policy

[david_thornley]

The iPhone 4 appears to work as is for many people, and there are fairly easy workarounds for the problem when it does come up. That said, feel free to not buy one.

Re:ATT's return policy

[ShooterNeo]

A good case is an 'option' that appears to solve all the major problems with the iphone. A good case would protect the glass back from most impact and scratch damage, allow you to grip the phone better, and would insulate the metal antenna from your sweaty palms. Technically that means that the sweet industrial design of the phone would be semi-wasted since you are wrapping the hard glass and metal lines of the device in a swaddling of generic rubber.

Re:ATT's return policy

[E IS mC(Square)]

>>The iPhone 4 appears to work as is for many people

Post-decision dissonance.

So...

[Mr_Miagi]

Who's pre-ordering the iPhone 4 S?

Antenna-ing
Done the right way.

Bumper solves and creates a problem

[Mr_Silver]

What I didn't realise until I read a review recently is that although the Bumper solves the antenna issue, it means that you cannot plug in your standard iPod/iPhone connectors!

The "solution" is that you have to take the phone partially out of the case so you can plug the connector in - in other words, every single time you plug it in to charge, sync or hook up to your car stereo!

I'm rather surprised that a company that prides itself on the quality of its products manage to muck up what should be a simple plastic case.

Re:Bumper solves and creates a problem

[Xuranova]

What I didn't realise until I read a review recently is that although the Bumper solves the antenna issue, it means that you cannot plug in your standard iPod/iPhone connectors!

I have my iphone plugged in with the bumper now. There's a clearly defined hole of which to plug in the connector. Perhaps your reviewers got the bumper installed upside down?

http://i1034.photobucket.com/albums/a429/MalfoyR/bumperplug.jpg?t=1277997549

Re:Bumper solves and creates a problem

[Sockatume]

I assume they're referring to docks and other accessories, and not the basic USB cable.

Re:Bumper solves and creates a problem

[joh]

What I didn't realise until I read a review recently is that although the Bumper solves the antenna issue, it means that you cannot plug in your standard iPod/iPhone connectors!

No, you can't plug in many *third-party* connectors which may be thicker than those from Apple. Not exactly surprising.

Re:Bumper solves and creates a problem

[CraftyJack]

What I didn't realise until I read a review recently is that although the Bumper solves the antenna issue, it means that you cannot plug in your standard iPod/iPhone connectors!

Xacto?

Re:Bumper solves and creates a problem

[Anonymous Coward]

Welcome to 8 years ago. You've never seen a phone protector/case before?

Re:Bumper solves and creates a problem

[Mr_Silver]

Thanks for the clarification - and the message on the paper :)

I got the information from here but as someone else pointed out, it might just be the non-Apple ones which don't work.

Either way, I think I'm going to hold out buying a new phone for a month or so, just in case these kinks work themselves out.

Re:Bumper solves and creates a problem

[MistrBlank]

Using a case or "bumper" eliminates the use of a dock. This has been a long standing problem that apple should have addressed a LONG time ago in design all the way back to the original iPods.

Re:Bumper solves and creates a problem

[Anonymous Coward]

True, but with the bumper the headphone jack becomes recessed, preventing you from plugging in the headphones which came with the iPhone 4.

who cares...

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple fanboys love to be screw over and over... let's them enjoy

Probably already happened.

[Anonymous Coward]

Both the users probably settled things already, in small claims court.

Service Cancellation & Early Termination Fee

[perpenso]

It's not exactly about the phone. Yes, you CAN return the phone, but it's too late at that point - now you're in a 2-year AT&T contract, that you then have to pay $375 to get out of ...

I just went through AT&T's iPhone 4 online upgrade process far enough to be shown:
Service Cancellation & Early Termination Fee
Call the number on your invoice/receipt to cancel your service. You may cancel service within 30 days from the activation date to avoid the applicable early termination fee (the "Early Termination Fee" or "ETF").

--
Perpenso Calc for iPhone. Classic Scientific and HEX functionality plus RPN, fractions, complex numbers, 64/32/signed/unsigned bitwise operations, UTF-8, IEEE FP decode, and RGB decode with color preview.

Apple is living like it's the 90s

[al0ha]

This kind of thing, "You are holding it wrong" is par for the course with Apple and no surprise to a long time user.

Back in the day, circa late 80s and into the 90s, Apple computers were mainly used by artists with little technological experience. As such Apple's customer was essentially beholden to the company because let's face it, what were they going to do, use a PC? These days the Apple customer is vastly different, and though the products are nifty and slick, continuing the arrogance towards the end user may prove counter productive in the long run.

iPhone and Youtube

[s4lt3d]

I think that returning their new iPhone is a problem for many people due to utterly destroying their previous iPhone in an attempt to make a cool youtube video. Now they have no backup phone and cannot possibly exchange the phone being that they are apple loyalists. Lawyers with their keen senses felt an opportunity to make a buck and started a class action lawsuit.

Re:iPhone and Youtube

[bannable]

Oh, I get it now.

wrong, no contract if returned

[Uksi]

No, if you return it, you are not obligated to the contract.

Re:wrong, no contract if returned

[Sandbags]

More so, if you used an upgrade option to get the phone for $200 instead of 600, that is ALSO returned to you as if you had not used it. This is backed by federal law. You can not get screwed signing up for a contract you didn't like, or buying a device you don;t want. In some cases, there will be a restocking fee for returning a fully functional device, but AT&T and Apple have confirmed if you demonstrate the issue, there will be no restocking fee.

Re:wrong, no contract if returned

[Achromatic1978]

but AT&T and Apple have confirmed if you demonstrate the issue, there will be no restocking fee.

Where? As late as yesterday, memos were being leaked directing customer service employees that this was not a defect, but an inherent issue of any phone, that no problem admission was to be made, no bumpers were to be offered free as a solution, but could be recommended (?!? recommend a solution to a problem that doesn't exist?)...

A piece of tape?

[MaWeiTao]

I'm guessing someone could address this issue themselves by affixing a piece of tape where it's needed. Clear tape to preserve the aesthetic of the phone. Or maybe a strip of screen protector plastic. I'm guessing if a coating would address the issue tape would work as well. At least it's a temporary fix until Apple addresses the problem.

How long before we see some obnoxious, overly complicated guide on Youtube suggesting this very thing?

It just works! (When you hold it right...)

[Anonymous Coward]

And there's already hysterical screaming from the rooftops and people running to lawyers because they see Apple as a potential cash cow, rather than returning a defective product and being done with it. No, they want to have their cake and eat it too.

Perhaps Apple shouldn't have touted it as being the latest and greatest miracle ever to happen to the industry then? Especially if they knew about these problems beforehand? Maybe Apple wanted to have their cake and eat it too, knowing that flaws exist in their design and despite it being a low-cost fix (bumper), insisting that iphone4 owners pony up the additional cash to fix the phone to the advertised functionality? I think most of these plaintiffs buy into the whole Apple reality distortion field, they actually believe that buying the latest iphone will make their lives so much better and special that they have a legitimate gripe that they aren't getting what they paid for. Is it realistic? Not in the slightest, but Apple digs their own hole on this one by the ridiculous amount of hype they stir up with their product launches.

But I'll bet the 'retina display' makes the phone look great when iphone 4 owners are staring at their handsets, wondering where that last call went to.

We have a new /. meme contender

[flanders123]

As everyone can plainly see, "Just don't **** that way" is really showing some serious game and is poised for a title shot. For those scoring at home, "You insensitive clod" has had the crown for a while after it soundly defeated then-reigning champ "My eyes, the goggles do nothing!". But don't rest on your laurels, "Just don't", because wily veteran "You must be new here" is poised for a serious comeback, after it's mauling of midland "I, for one".

Re:We have a new /. meme contender

[TKane]

You must be new here.

Re:We have a new /. meme contender

[Anonymous Coward]

That's what she said!

Re:We have a new /. meme contender

[Anonymous Coward]

**** and I are done, professionally.

Re:We have a new /. meme contender

[Anonymous Coward]

In Soviet Russia new meme is you!

Heheheheh.

[billsayswow]

They told everyone to just go get a case. They didn't know everyone would come back with a court case.

everybody back to 4th grade, please.

[swschrad]

AFFECT is a transitive verb. "I can affect your computer's operation with this sledgehammer."

EFFECT is an object of action. "The effect of my hitting your computer with my sledgehammer is a reduction in idiotic posts on the wacky."

please everybody to get this correct in the future.

Re:everybody back to 4th grade, please.

[Anonymous Coward]

While we're grammar-nazi-ing, "effect" can also be used as a verb, but it doesn't mean the same as affect - instead, it means "to bring about".

For example, "hitting your computer with my sledgehammer effected a reduction in idiotic posts."

Re:everybody back to 4th grade, please.

[Ragzouken]

I wish you luck in effecting this change in people's understanding.

Re:everybody back to 4th grade, please.

[N Monkey]

AFFECT is a transitive verb. "I can affect your computer's operation with this sledgehammer."

EFFECT is an object of action. "The effect of my hitting your computer with my sledgehammer is a reduction in idiotic posts on the wacky."

please everybody to get this correct in the future.

Sorry to be a pedant, but "effect" can also be used as a verb in the sense of causing something. e.g. "To effect a change in the system we can swap the polarity".

Re:everybody back to 4th grade, please.

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

please everybody to get this correct in the future.

Yeah, you're making your posts really difficult for the extra smart people to read!

Re:everybody back to 4th grade, please.

[Ksevio]

Or like "after the illegal search of his effects, the police did effect him with his wallet"

Re:everybody back to 4th grade, please.

[Anonymous Coward]

Ooh. Another wrench in the works!

affect: n. a mannerism or personality trait.

He had a strange affect about him. I think he was a grammar nazi.

Re:everybody back to 4th grade, please.

[mysidia]

I seriously doubt he will actually have any affect.

Re:everybody back to 4th grade, please.

[Anonymous Coward]

AFFECT is a transitive verb. "I can affect your computer's operation with this sledgehammer."

EFFECT is an object of action. "The effect of my hitting your computer with my sledgehammer is a reduction in idiotic posts on the wacky."

please everybody to get this correct in the future.

ya know, who gives a bloody damn....cant comment on the story but has to be a F'n grammar troll...

Re:everybody back to 4th grade, please.

[coryodaniel]

No one gives a shit, everyone gets what you mean either way you say it.

Re:everybody back to 4th grade, please.

[Pinkybum]

Effect can be a transitive verb too. As in: I want to effect a better understanding of grammar by responding to your post.

Re:everybody back to 4th grade, please.

[2obvious4u]

Wait I'm lost, is that funny because you just used the wrong affect?

Re:everybody back to 4th grade, please.

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah, the battle cry of the stupid...

Re:everybody back to 4th grade, please.

[mcgrew]

Dude, it's no use. And there are a lot worse mistakes; substituting "loose" for "lose", for example, when both are verbs that have completely different meanings with the substtution completely changing the meaning of the sentence. Using apostrophes when none are needed ("the Supreme's court findings are garbage"). Not knowing the difference between there, their, and they're.

I swear, half the people on the internet have never read a single thing that wasn't on a computer screen written by one of their fellow semiliterates.

It's no use, Don, the windmills will always win.

Re:everybody back to 4th grade, please.

[balbus000]

I don't think he'll get the desired affect.

Re:everybody back to 4th grade, please.

[Atario]

All this is giving me serious schizophrenic affects.

Re:everybody back to 4th grade, please.

[Anonymous Coward]

Effect is also a transitive verb.

You can effect change in the world around you.

That said, GP still used "affect" where "effect" belongs.

Re:everybody back to 4th grade, please.

[Anonymous Coward]

Your attempted explanation made no difference to my understanding.

Re:everybody back to 4th grade, please.

[Anonymous Coward]

Pretty sure it's funny because he did spell it correctly, but it's counter-intuitive and goes against the simplified rules swschrad stated.

Re:everybody back to 4th grade, please.

[Anonymous Coward]

"please everybody to get this correct in the future."

That's funky grammar to use in a post intended to help raise the quality of English usage.

Re:everybody back to 4th grade, please.

[Anonymous Coward]

Grammar nazi much?

Re:everybody back to 4th grade, please.

[Anonymous Coward]

Wrong. Even if correct, then go fix the stupid language that has too similarly sounding and spelled words with almost the same meaning but different rules for application. Pragmatist:1, Nazi:0.

inconvenient facts

[Gary W. Longsine]

Don't let facts get in the way of a good argument.

Re:inconvenient facts

[geekoid]

They still won't return any other monies spent, not refund you for any time 'used'. Also, they have been known to lie to try and avoid the 30 day exception.

Who's assuming?

[snowwrestler]

You merely assume that the problems are similar. Upon what are you basing the assumption?

Could you 'short' the antenna in the Nexus One merely by holding a phone in the 'wrong' way? No.

What proof do you have that the antenna is "short"ing on the iPhone 4? The only user-doable test is to look at the bars while changing the grip. That does not tell you what is causing it. It doesn't even produce a repeatable result every time.

Is the reception quantifyably worse than either the Nexus One or the previous generation iPhone? Yes.

Actually folks who have done tests report the reception is better than the previous iPhone. Link

Re:Who's assuming?

[geekoid]

The antennae engineer that broke it down, explained it pretty well.

" The only user-doable test is to look at the bars while changing the grip. "

And that's a poor test, for a number of reasons.

Just to be clear:
The issue with the Nexus one is different then with the iPhone. Not comparable.
Is the Nexus one within what one would expected? I don't know. If not, then maybe there will be a lawsuit.

Ugly bumper no. This is more Apple-worthy

[SloppyElvis]

Maserati Driving Gloves The only acceptable solution really.

You will obey!

[Beelzebud]

You will hold it like the turtle-neck overlord commands, and you will like it!

In Soviet Russia

[Tisha_AH]

In Soviet Russia you do not find the class action law suit, it finds YOU!

I am bombarded on a regular basis with class action lawsuit notices for products and services.

AT&T long distance
Volkswagen leaky sunroof
Computer memory
Vonage this or that

Unless I feel that I have been injured in some way I refuse to respond to these baits. As has been stated elsewhere the money goes into the ambulance chasing lawyers pockets and very little flows down to the "injured parties".

I wonder, can we file a class action lawsuit against lawyers who file class action lawsuits??

Re:3gs antennas

[Anonymous Coward]

In a marginal area, hold the 3GS upside down: you can get 3 - 5 db increase in signal strength. This can be enough to get that call or data link to work... Although you may have to put it on speaker or use a headset to avoid a free standing yoga position.

This isn't an excuse, but cell phones and especially iphones/androids etc, have multiple internal antennas tuned for things like bluetooth, wifi, and the cell bands. This coverage usually requires at least 3 antennas. The compactness of the device usually requires creative thinking and a good measure of compromise to make it all work reliably.

The 3 gs bundles them at the bottom back. Stick a battery sleeve on to get more talk time and ZAP, your signal strength drops because of the battery's shielding effect (hey... I meant "affect" ... GRIN). Pull the darn battery off and hold the thing upside down: voila! from no bars to three.

Try it. It's very repeatable. Just to be clear: there is an increase just due to holding it upside down. Er... I haven't tried changing my hand position from the bottom to the top. That would be weird.

I don't think the whole story about the 4's antennas has been told, technology wise. I don't see how they could use the case for all the antennas ( 850 MHz, 1900 MHz for cell, 2.4 GHz for Wifi, and the upper end of the Wifi band for Bluetooth. Not sure if they split Wifi/bluetooth signals or use separate antennas. Also, is the complaint that they cannot connect even in strong coverage areas? That seems difficult to believe.

Hope some 4 users comment on their experience.

And for the full pedant points...

[snowwrestler]

"Affect" can also be used as a noun, meaning a state of mind or way of presenting oneself. "The head injury had the effect of creating a new affect in Jim."

Greed

[Anonymous Coward]

Damn the greedy lawyers. They are scum suckers who can't contribute anything positive to the world so they drag other people down. May they rot in a special Hell for eternity.

Apple deserves some heat...

[dogsbreath]

Their usual response to a design flaw is that it is the users problem. Thats when the Apple Apologists come out of the woodwork and complain about "the usual" pissing on Apple. On the contrary, Apple gets a pretty free and cushy ride most of the time. Most reviews of Apple products gloss over flaws that would result in crucifixtion if it came from Redmond.

I like my 3GS and I like a lot of Apple products but let's face it, they make some real crap too. eg: iTunes (inconsistant, many db bugs, slow, bloated) and Safari (slow, bloated, buggy eyecandy) come to mind on the software side. Arguably, pre ios4 versions have been buggy and wanting as well. I have noticed the Bluetooth driver still has a number of issues (not noticable if you have only one BT device).

On the hardware side, I remember overheating Macs, monitors with wavy screens and of course there is the battery life of the iphone which has led to a large amount of profit for the battery folk. All of these problems get pawned off as "user generated problems" by Apple support.

Hey... they're no worse than anyone else and anybody who has experience in mass production of consumer devices can understand how these things happen. iPhones are a pretty impressive piece of technology. However, Apple products are not sacred.

I just think Apple needs to stand up and say "Yeah, we screwed up" and come out with an engineering fix, a timeline for repair, and a plan to replace the defective product. Just like Detroit.

Re:Apple deserves some heat...

[mikael_j]

Ah, but for every overly positive review of an Apple product you can bet there's a slew of comments and blog posts about how evil they are and how ever minor flaw makes the product at hand completely useless and worthless.

As for iTunes and Safari, yeah, iTunes is a bit bloated, even on OS X these days but I've never had any trouble with Safari, at least not on OS X when comparing to other browsers (like Firefox which is absolutely dog slow on OS X for some reason).

And on the hardware side I suppose I've been lucky so far but I also think part of the reason for that is that Apple's hardware issues tend to get blown way out of proportion by tech journalists looking for page views, they know if they make some minor flaw that affects one user in a hundred sound like the end of times they'll get lots of visitors, even if all the visitors just drop by to leave "works fine for me" comments.

Basically my impression of the coverage of Apple is a lot more black and white than the coverage of other products, while others a pretty balanced mix with everything from the rabid fanboys to the anti-$BRAND zealots with Apple a lot of times it seems there are a lot more fanboys and anti-Apple zealots who hate everything Apple does ("Free ice cream, world peace, a pony and all the pizza you can eat? Yeah, completely worthless if it doesn't include a complementary keychain!").

Re:Apple deserves some heat...

[dogsbreath]

We'll have to disagree here. I think you have led a sheltered life if you think Apple takes any kind of major heat like other vendors have to deal with.

I'm a unix guy so I have no love for MS. Most of the criticism they have endured over the years has been well targeted. That said, for the most part they respond well.

OTOH, say anything against Apple and people like you come out and brand the source as fringe zealots.

I didn't say all Apple products are crap; I said sometimes they make crap and they absolutely will not admit to it. I think in this case, one of their design compromises has come back to bite in a way they did not expect. Their first reaction is to deny despite mounting evidence.

C'mon... this is a consumer product issue and Apple's record for admitting to problems is not good. The iphone is a great product but 4 has a real issue re: signal strength and shielding.

Re:Apple deserves some heat...

[mikael_j]

We'll have to disagree here. I think you have led a sheltered life if you think Apple takes any kind of major heat like other vendors have to deal with.

I disagree with you on this point, there are plenty of people, both journalists and amateurs, who love to criticize Apple and people who buy Apple products.

OTOH, say anything against Apple and people like you come out and brand the source as fringe zealots.

I didn't "brand the source as fringe zealots" I simply pointed out that as far as I can tell pretty much anything related to Apple tends to get become very polarized. Nice job implying that I'm an Apple fanboy though.

I didn't say all Apple products are crap; I said sometimes they make crap and they absolutely will not admit to it. I think in this case, one of their design compromises has come back to bite in a way they did not expect. Their first reaction is to deny despite mounting evidence.

Most manufacturers respond to initial complaints about faulty products by being quiet, the difference is that the amount of press Apple gets is a lot more than the press other companies generally get which makes their silence seem worse since people are bombarded with "two days since flaw discovered, still no apology from the great satan, I mean Steve Jobs"

C'mon... this is a consumer product issue and Apple's record for admitting to problems is not good. The iphone is a great product but 4 has a real issue re: signal strength and shielding.

Did I say it wasn't a serious issue? No, I believe I actually stated "I have no doubt this is a real problem..." in my original post in this thread...

do we have a Jobs line now?

[BlackSnake112]

Gates: "64k is enough for everyone"
Ballmer: Chairs, "I'm fucking going to kill ____"

and
Jobs: "Just don't hold it that way".

I'll buy a refurb iPhone 4. Please return...

[AmazinglySmooth]

your phones.

Apple sucks

[Anonymous Coward]

If holding the phone = no reception I wonder what the SAR profile looks like for tx side in this situation. Are government cell radiation exposure limits being reached?

Practical solution

[DrCForbin]

Yes Apple blew the testing. Yes they should cop to the error and make the rubber bumper available for free. And yes the sticky tape will work... But if you want a more elegent solution, get some tool dip at the hardware store and paint a thin rubber coat over the bloody antenna. Does this solve the problem? Yes. Should the problem never have occured in the first place? Also yes. Fix the issue now..and then who cares what the legal guys do? (Disclaimer:I work in a law office) I've been around long enough to remember the Apple III motherboard issue: " The fix for the motherboard issue is easy - Just drop it a couple of inches and the chips will reseat themselves..." Percussive maintenence anybody?

Not only are they getting sued

[anerki]

They don'teven work!

http://apple.slashdot.org/story/10/06/25/2132218/Experts-Explain-iPhone-4-Antenna-Problem?art_pos=10

This will have no affect on Apple's sales.

[falconwolf]

It may have an effect. Especially after the comments Steve Jobs told one iPhone owner.

Steve Jobs tells angry iPhone 4 owner to "relax". Steve Jobs told an owner who posted a video of his problem on YouTube "No, you are getting all worked up over a few days of rumors. Calm down." Get a Life..

Falcon

Re:This will have no affect on Apple's sales.

[Serious Callers Only]

Those emails have now been rejected by Apple as fake.

http://www.macrumors.com/2010/07/01/apple-pr-latest-steve-jobs-email-exchange-is-fake/

Anyone can forge email headers.

Re:This will have no affect on Apple's sales.

[falconwolf]

Those emails have now been rejected by Apple as fake.

But it's not clear those emails are fake. "The technology world took a bizarre new twist Friday when Apple officials denied that an email purportedly sent by chief executive Steve Jobs on the subject of the iPhone 4's antenna problems was a fake." Get that, Apple denies the email is fake?

Either Apple employees are not telling the truth about the email being fake or they are not telling the truth about them not being fake. However Apple has said iPhone 4 Signal Strength Calculations Were Wrong and Apple iPhone 4 Reception Bars: A Distorted Reality.

Falcon

Re:Just Return It- contract planet

[DCFusor]

Perhaps a planet where they have a contract that has termination fees so you can't just get your money back?

Re:It just works! (When you hold it right...)

[Achromatic1978]

But I'll bet the 'retina display' makes the phone look great when iphone 4 owners are staring at their handsets, wondering where that last call went to.

Ahh yes, the retina display, a piece of misleading deceptive BS that has no basis in reality, unless Steve "Don't Hold It That Way" Jobs also thinks that you should hold the phone at extreme arm's length (and then some) to use it...

Re-read yours

[SuperKendall]

Yes, I had one strike (Anecdote).

But then you jumped far past me, and added several more strikes with your refusal to address the fallacy your post was based on.

You being now some eleven strikes ahead of me, why you have obviously lost. Why are you still digging?

zhangyuyu

[zhangyuyu]

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