Slashdot Mirror
Unique ID In India Causes 'Fear of the Beast'
bhagwad writes "India's attempts to tag everyone with an ID number has run into a roadblock is some Christian villages. Apparently the villagers fear they will be associated with the devil since according to the Bible, everyone having the 'mark of the beast' will go to hell. These people are not afraid of punishment. They relish this opportunity to prove their faith because the Bible also proclaims that they will be persecuted."
Always good to see uneducated crazies are all over the world. I was worried that it was just the USA. Phew! /sarcasm
If you can read this... 01110101 01110010 00100000 01100001 00100000 01100111 01100101 01100101 01101011
How could they possibly believe that is actually the mark of the beast? Everybody knows those grocery store "loyalty cards" are the real Mark of the Beast!
At first I felt like 'superstitious' in the the article's title was not appropriate. Then I looked up the meaning of superstitious and yup, it's appropriate.
I really don't care what arbitrary reason they picked. I'm just glad to hear of someone - anyone - standing up and saying that they refuse to be tagged like cattle. Good for you, Indians!
Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
It seems a bit much to claim that any enumeration is automatically 'the number of the beast'. Even within their own mythos, the idea is that said enumeration is bad because of who is doing it. I guess they must already believe that India's government is ruled by satan? eh... that would not surprise me actually.
Though I have to say, every time I hear a group talk about being ready to be persecuted, it reminds me of the masochist in little shop of horrors... I am not sure it really counts if you go out of your way to misbehave just to get punished. Even SAMs know that.
for some really good laughs. Religious people are hilarious....and very very scary.
Are they tattooing this unique identifier on their foreheads, or on their hands?
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
While I wholeheartedly agree that superstitions like this are completely ridiculous, why can't they just skip from number 665 to 667?
It's just like how many buildings skip from floor 12 to 14.
I'm sure someone will complain about how this breaks their Excel spreadsheet or something, but just skip the numbers. It's not hard.
If you meant that it takes years of indoctrination before a normal human being is willing to let other human beings tag him like an animal, then yes, I suppose these people need more "educating".
They may be wrong about WHY consolidated power is dangerous, but they are absolutely correct that it IS dangerous.
As a long-time minister I can tell you two things that are commonly misinterpreted by the nominal Christian crowd.
1. Revelation is almost entirely using symbolic language (it says so in the first paragraph).
2. Nearly everyone goes to hell. Hell is just the state of being dead, nothing more. Even Jesus is spoken of as being in 'hell' when he died.
The 'mark of the beast; is not a literal, physical mark. Rather, it is some kind of behavior or trait associating one with the Devils machinations (i.e. participating (or tacitly approving of) in genocide)
Is anyone really surprised? Religious people doing something stupid should not be news when the very state of religion itself requires its participants to be wilfully ignorant. Hopefully some day they'll all think their God has granted them the gift of flight, and jump off the nearest cliff.
They relish this opportunity to prove their faith because the Bible also proclaims that they will be persecuted.
It has been my experience, through years of informal religion studies, that the Bible can predict/proclaim/justify just about anything you want it. Thousands of pages of hear-say, from hundreds of authors, many only written after being passed down for generations, just adds up to way too much ambiguity and makes it way to easy to find a sentence or two that can support $my_action. Yes, this is part of what makes religion so dangerous.
No comprende? Let me type that a little slower for you...
There's an idea for a server name. Maybe I'll name my media server attention_harlot too.
Just 3000 of them. Pretty small compared to India's population. There's always stupid people around.
I believe I am well educated with some extensive study in Eschatology.
The Mark of the Beast is interesting and whether you are Premillennial or Amillennial you can find issues with the Mark of the Beast.
I, personally, am mostly indifferent. Mostly.
Here's where the concern is and will continue to be: buying and selling goods. I must make a living. I must pay my taxes. I'm okay with this. What happens when I won't accept an ID chip in my hand or cell phone?
As a citizen I am no longer "free". I pay my taxes but I can't buy or sell without these shackles?
Once a government is able to completely restrict the buying and selling, the means in which I survive, they have become oppressive and abusive. They must be overthrown.
If you think it doesn't matter or this is an unimportant step then we can Godwin this discussion.
And no, I'm not afraid. I won't bow down to another god or man. If the next President says we must bow down to him or his god(s) I will refuse.
Personally I think Christians (practicing their faith in "loving others") are the best kind of citizen one can have. They follow the just laws, they pay taxes and help their fellow men.
I had a sysadmin who refused to chmod files to 666 because it was the number of the beast. We didn't have the permission-letter version of the command back then.
Bruce Perens.
I am just sitting back, enjoying the show: religion versus state, no matter who loses, I win.
You can't handle the truth.
I fail to see why the governmrent (either India, or other) thinks it needs to assign a unique ID to everyone
Great, another story where the discussion will be flooded with anti-religious posts, with everyone practically foaming at the mouth to condemn people who don't think like they do. Like any of it matters. You are all just yelling into the void for no reason, and doing a big anti-religious circle-jerk as you all congratulate yourselves on how much smarter you are than these people.
At lest that's the picture that I get in my head when I read all of these comments.
*insert web site of your government national identification card/taxpayer id card/social security card/birth certificate registration/passport authority/etc web site here*
^^above is satire. No, I don't think government ID numbers are inherently evil. They can be used for evil but they are not evil incarnate.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
Like everyone here, I love computers and can see the good in them. I think we could all agree that there is potential for abuse and misuse of them as well. If you're one of those people who never goes near a computer, and I have many friends who know zero, couldn't even turn one on then all you would see is the sinister uses. And I believe that keeping track of every purchase made by every citizen is sinister. The problem is I don't see any way of stopping it from coming about. Quick note to Christians in India, the people who decide these issues are the ones who have the money and they don't actually believe the Bible. They may like to say they do but I'm sure you would agree that actions speak louder than words. Let's hope your number is a lucky one!
And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Wait the us already has that. It is called a Social Security #.
The number of the beast is actually 616. God, as any diligent sysadmin would be, is clearly concerned by the group execute privileges granted by chmod 616.
Big apple, new Yorik, undig it, something's unrotting in Edenmark.
These people are not afraid of punishment. They relish this opportunity to prove their faith because the Bible also proclaims that they will be persecuted.
Aren't self-fulfilling prophecies awesome?
The Bible also says that it will be marked on your forehead or hand. Why is it that people remember the whole "Mark of the beast" part, but they forget about the details. It seems like this happens every time some government agency wants to roll out ID numbers. I can't find anywhere in the Bible where God is opposed to ID numbers.
- Derrick
The dirty, filthy secret is of course that they are right. But the educated buffoons who make up the majority of Slashdot's readership will just use this as an opportunity to pummel anyone they consider "ignorant" in comparison to themselves. Let's get it out of the way, shall we? They're ignorant. Stupid. Illiterate. Backwards. Primitive believes in invisible Sky Daddy Fairy Unicorn. Ahh... there we go.
Now for the seriousness - replacing names with numbers is just one of the many tools governments across the world use to dehumanize their populations. Nothing is more dangerous to a government than free people who consider themselves sovereign entities and treat the edicts of their government with contempt. The government wants to impress you, show off for you, convince you they have all the power and you have none. It is illegal in this country the United States to have a baby and not immediately report that birth. Is it because they care so much about your child and want to make sure it's taken care of? All evidence says no, of course they don't give a damn. They just want to make sure they know who and where this new person is so they can subject them to a lifetime of oppression. From public schooling to mandatory health insurance purchasing to jury duty, the government needs to know you exist so they can make you submit.
These villagers might not be right in their exact theology, but that makes no difference. They correctly recognize that enumerating human beings as if they were any other commodity is a tool of dehumanization that makes life less valuable in the eyes of the paper pushers who decide whether to bomb you or to build you a bridge. It's a tool for treating the human soul as a cost-benefit calculation, as just another thing to be thrown away when it's no longer usefully working.
But of course, they're ignorant and stupid and you are so much infinitely smarter and wiser. That's why you've allowed yourselves to be treated like cattle and sheepherded into any pen the government conceives for you. Keep your protests in a Free Speech Zone and when the government decides to shut down the internet you will have to find someplace else to parade your intellectual superiority.
When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.
Wait, do they fear they will be sent to hell, or are they not afraid of punishment?
Doesn't the whole "number of the beast" thing actually refer to it being tattooed onto the back of your neck or something like that? What they're referring to in this news story is just an ID card!
Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
Let me make sure I understand. The government of India is issuing unique identification cards to every citizen, which are required by law to buy and sell goods. And we're saying that these 3,000 or so Indians are crazy for not wanting to sign up for that? You don't need the Bible to know that's a bad idea. Has the entire world lost it's mind?
It doesn't take a genius to see the potential for abuse when your overlords can now assign a nice little fingerprint that they own so they can track everything you do. Good for them for resisting - it takes a special kind of person to actually stand up for what you believe in when the price is that high.
Just as I thought the GP was of the mark, there is the crazy just as he predicted. My and what a beautifull example it is, frotting at the mouth, puffing up his red-neck.
Kinda sad the Illuminati have already tagged this one and fixed him. If he still had his equipment in full functional order he would be far more fierce but sadly this one is doomed to rant and rave impotently.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
A woman I know whose nickname is "Lucy Furr" (a lying, theiving sociopath) and I used to drink together. She'd go to the convience store for a half pint of Canadian Superior rotgot and a six pack of beer, and that bill was $6.66.
But historians will point out that the "number of the beast" referred to the Roman Emperor.
Free Martian Whores!
The first library automation system I installed, in about 1982, had us convert from a signature check out system to one using barcodes and had us issue library cards with barcodes on them. We received a very eruditely written letter (Perfect English and grammar) from a gentleman who patiently explained to us that barcodes were the mark of the beast and we were to disassociate his name from any barcodes immediately and he would be checking back to make sure this happened.
Just FYI. The system was made by Geac of Canada. Most code was written in ZOPL (Our Programming Language with a "Z" in front to make it sound cool) It also used Hugo, Ugli, and Glug, a report generator. And root was called "dyna" envisioned as a vast sea which contained 'islands' (sub-directories) and "God Bless all who sail her." That system was history years ago, but it taught me the meaning of the old saying, "I've forgotten more than you will ever know." Only a few people in the world understand the phrase "liberator card."
Anyone here remember Geac?
How about a moderation of -1 pedantic.
313-33-7666 is my SS, what up now?!
If those people do not want to have an ID number, give them ID letters instead. Problem solved.
Don't you find it at all interesting that a world economy governed by a "number" used for identification was predicted 2000 years ago?
What happens if you create a playlist with 666 tracks of Christian music on it?
Give me ID 666 and close this topic already.
This is always going to happen any time a group tries to roll out a new ID. Worse if you require this ID to buy things and to work and even worse then that is if you some how attach the ID to the individual, but besides the fact people still get all excited when it happens. However, I am often shocked how if the motivation isn't religious how often its in the name of privacy which at least at /. is its own religion to some.
I look at all of the work done against RealID in this country and for a person who always has his passport on him, I really don't understand why anyone would be against Identification standards in this country. Seems we would move towards it naturally, but we don't so when its forced its a travesty that will be the end of all state budgets. So a group of people are against something new because of something they believe. Obviously, that group is only rationalized if you agree with them as is typical with any debate.
Momento Mori
Sorry, never heard of that one before. Do tell, what is the "No True Scotsman" fallacy?
Personally I think Christians (practicing their faith in "loving others") are the best kind of citizen one can have. They follow the just laws, they pay taxes and help their fellow men.
History class: apparently you never showed up. Ever.
They really should have initiated this effort on June 6, 2006.
I caught this quote from the first post:
"Always good to see uneducated crazies are all over the world.
Yes, uneducated, but not in the way you are thinking of.
Christians are persecuted all over the world. In India, there are some fanatical groups of Hindus and Muslims that are especially violent towards Christians, with murders and burning whole villages not uncommon. Lesser persecution occurs all over the world, however, and is to be expected. In fact, this is probably not exclusive to Christians, though some religions tend to suffer less. I suspect because they fight back. Christians are not called to do so, but to love their persecutors and put their faith in God. Seeking persecution is not necessary - it will seek you as a Christian.
I'm currently studying Revelation, and have been getting very different insights into the imagery and visions depicted there. The 'mark of the Beast' need not be a literal mark, but it could be just as apparent. If, as a Christian, you spend your time watching celebrity news shows and, as Don Imus says, 'revelling in the agony of others', you are participating in the less-Christian aspects of our culture. This is more the domain of the Beast (Satan) than it is of God. You are marked by this. If you spend your time talking about things of the world, you are marked as one more interested in the world. Am I guilty of this? Yup. We can change, though.
The quote about 'buying or selling' is indeed, however, looking more literal than figurative. This is more interesting. But of course, if you wish to buy or sell that which is being offered by the prevailing culture, well, yes, avoiding the mark of the Beast will distance you from that culture. In TFA, it seems India is instituting the UID system to better identify individuals. I think, as a Christian, I could tolerate having a UID as a means to entirely acceptable ends, ie property ownership.
I think these Mizoramans are misguided, but they are also under constant threat. Who knows.
Hopefully some of the pastors I know of in India will reach out to them and give them some useful insights. You have to fight the real fight, not be distracted by the enemy.
ps- I do not advocate Christians isolating themselves from the world. We are called to be in the world, but not of it. If you don't understand this, try to evaluate your investment in current events. Are you tossed to and fro by the latest political debate, or do you take it as an event, and keep your focus on the issues and real progress?
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
At Wendy's.
Replace the digits with numbers? 0->A, 1->B, 2->C, ...?
Alas, there must be those who don't know the English alphabet.
Are we sure this story isn't from Indiana?
I live ze unknown. I love ze unknown. I am ze unknown.
The gays aren't knocking at my door, telling my children that they are going to burn in hell forever.
Okay, define how this is intolerant. Are they killing your kids if they do not convert? You always have the option of shutting the door if you don't like it.
They aren't shooting abortion doctors.
How many abortion doctors have been shot by self-described Christians? Less than a dozen (which I would say is still too much). And true Christians condemn these acts (that whole Sixth Commandment and all).
They aren't launching suicide attacks on my neighborhood.
Ah, now you're talking about Muslims, which is a totally different religious group. Fundamentalist Muslims will try to blow you up. Fundamentalist Christians just pray for your soul and witness to you.
They aren't polluting science with their fictional delusions.
To turn this around, aren't you being a little intolerant in the way you're presenting their beliefs?
When the theists abandon their irrational bigotry, grow up and stop trying to control their neighbors, they'll be worthy of tolerance.
That also doesn't sound very tolerant.
--Chag
First off, describe this persecution of which you speak.
Second, do you advocate Christians persecuting others by trying to have their religion codified into law, having their religion taught in public schools, and their desire to disallow homosexuals to marry even if such a marriage is allowed in the homosexuals' religion?
If you can say you advocate or support any of the second, then you are nothing less than a self-serving hypocrite, like most every christian I have ever met.
There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
It is against my religion to be identified by anything but a prime number. Government, don't trample my religious beliefs.
Half the people in India don't even know their own birthdays. People have children and forget about them; they end up running around in the street with millions of other beggars and end up sniffing glue for a living. I'm sure any ID system devised will fail. Maybe in China this would be possible, but India is a completely different society based on complete social irresponsibility
Try wikipedia?
...human beings are animals, no more and no less!
When 1person suffers from a delusion,it is called insanity.When many people suffer from a delusion,it is called religion
This kind of belief disgusts me. That's all. Now troll me.
Really, who can be stupid enough to believe in a book that tells them all kinds of already-proven-wrong things, according to our current interpretation? I can *understand* the belief in an abstract god that created the rules that rule our world. I don't agree with it, but I can understand it. I cannot agree with or understand the belief in a god that is both our creator and our watch-dog -- a vengeful watch-dog. (Among many other things which make the theory of said god stupid; that's why I'm writing sort of an article to prove that such a god could not exist or that the belief in such a god could not exist). It is the work of an ignorant to believe in such, from my point of view. And this mostly proves it.
Have you heard about SoylentNews?
and this thread will belong to the beast!
I'm sensing a lot of angst here. Its amazing the lack of maturity displayed by those claiming intellectual superiority.
I have this to say: I choose to be a Christian, fully knowing that this looks rather dumb. So while you can mock me, what exactly is your point?
And for all those Christians arguing that we do not look dumb, well, that's just dumb. Get with the program. We're not here to win debates and look clever.
note: this is my form letter for all topics on /. concerning Christianity
At the time, turning the other cheek was considered a taunt. "That was pretty weak. I got another one, you want to try again?"
Beer of the Feast. Amen.
Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
I do not advocate Christians isolating themselves from the world.
Could you at least insulate your beliefs from the rest of the world? Many of us think they're crazy.
Funny that this story was reported by "bhagwad" apparently a Hindu.
Hmm let me recall... Hindus worship cows, eat cow dung (during festivals Sankranthi, Ugadi), pray to 33 billion gods, worship rocks, trees and rivers (as polluted as they may be - Ganges and Jamuna).
And they talk about 3,000 Christians who constitute barely 2% of the total Indian population lol.
You know, this'll probably get modded "troll" along with the last guy, but honestly it needs to be said again.
I, myself am a Christian, and I do not see this "persecution" of which you speak, "finding me", at least not in America.
Honestly, I've got no doubt that some people of all faiths all over the world find themselves persecuted, but in America this is the farthest thing from real that you can possibly get. There is no religious persecution in America, except possibly towards Islam as it is *consistently* demonized in popular culture.
Honestly, here in America it's like some people have fetishized the idea of fighting against persecution, to the point where they are seeking it out. Where they basically go around being anti-social dicks about something vaguely religious, then scream persecution when someone points out how dickish they're being.
For instance, if proselytizing is not allowed at your work or school, reacting to this by holding impromptu prayer meetings in the hall is dickish behavior. It's clearly not allowed, but you're doing it anyhow to provoke a confrontation, and most definitely would NOT be doing it if it wasn't explicitly disallowed. When someone shuts you down, that's not persecution, that's you being an ass and getting shut down.
If you are a Christian in America, you are in *no way* disenfranchised, or persecuted against based on your faith.
and set my root password to null for maximum security, that way unauthorized access is impossible!
What is the explanation of SEEMING older? God fucking with our minds????
Even in the US there are Christians who have been saying this for a while about RFID and other technologies.
http://www.amazon.com/Spychips-Threat-Christians-Electronic-Surveillance/dp/1595550216
While we can debate "mark of the beast" label, giving everyone a unique ID that they are required to use to buy and sell goods would have a negative impact on our privacy.
First off, incidents in India, Bangladesh, and another report (disturbing graphic warning).
Second: "Second, do you advocate Christians persecuting others by trying to have their religion codified into law, having their religion taught in public schools, and their desire to disallow homosexuals to marry even if such a marriage is allowed in the homosexuals' religion?"
This is a more difficult and substantive challenge, thank you.
ALL legislation is someone's morality. When gay marriage is being proposed, it is someone's morality being presented for inclusion and acceptance. In the particular issue of marriage, I don't think opposition to gay marraige is exclusive to Christians, or even Judeo-Christian faith. Even Islam opposes this.
By 'homosexuals' religion', I assume you mean mostly those Christian denominations that perform same-sex marriages. Without getting into the theology and disputes, legalizing same-sex marriage is not, for me, limited to marriages peformed by religious institutions. Any legal marriage would be expected to be covered. Where the ceremony is performed and by whom is irrelevant.
I do NOT support changing the marriage laws to permit same-sex marriage, but I have three points to make here;
1. I believe this position is consistent with Scripture and with Christianity. God is entirely plain about His attitude towards homosexuality. You know the references as well as I do.
2. Despite that, I cannot condemn homosexuals merely for being homosexual. And in fact, they are welcome in my church if they are not practicing sex. Same goes for unmarried heterosexuals. Actually, they are welcome anyways, but will not be invited to hold leadership positions, etc. As far as I know, a church member who divorces their spouse for reasons other than infidelity is also subject to that limitation. And yes, I know at least some of our leaders are secretly sinning, as we all are. We at least acknowledge the obvious or admitted sin.
3. While I vote against same-sex marriage, I am also not concerned that our culture will further devolve into an even more depreaved state if it passes, nor am I concerned that it will cause the ruination of our country. That's going to happen no matter. I have an opinion, I vote that way, but I do not make it a cause of mine to oppose it. If I believe God is who He says He is, then I know this is in His plan, and I must still have faith.
And one last thing. If same-sex couples want to act married, live together, adopt children, etc., I am not overly concerned about that. I have a sister-in-law who lives with a woman, has a child she adopted, and in every way they act married save for the legal recognition and, of course, the legal benefits inherited by marriage. They have living wills, powers-of-attorney, and specific HIPAA releases to handle the legal issues that may arise. My wife and I would not consider interfering in those agreements even if it were possible - they have made their choice well known. The argument that same-sex couples are just as loving and able as any other couple to make a family is a good one. You'll want to make that argument for clemency for murderers, extortionists, and thieves who are also kind and loving husbands and wives.
That last comment is harsh, and might leave the impression that I equate homosexuality with murder and other cirmes. Not true. But claiming that a loving husband or wife is proof that a particular behavior is acceptable or without harm is specious. don't make that argument. It doesn't work.
I am much more sympathetic to the simple argument that civil rights should be granted to persons regardless of their race, sex, creed,
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
Hmmm. And of course, your beliefs are just fine.
I thought so. It's not you. It's me.
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
I always wanted to have a 3-digit UID!
Christians are persecuted all over the world. In India, there are some fanatical groups of Hindus and Muslims that are especially violent towards Christians, with murders and burning whole villages not uncommon. Lesser persecution occurs all over the world, however, and is to be expected. In fact, this is probably not exclusive to Christians, though some religions tend to suffer less. I suspect because they fight back. Christians are not called to do so, but to love their persecutors and put their faith in God. Seeking persecution is not necessary - it will seek you as a Christian.
hmm... a little too one sided. Aren't we?
1. You seem to imply that every once in a while a whole village of Christians is killed. It is not some thing that happens in India and definitely NOT a repeating issue as you imply. Get your facts right
2. No religion is better. It is up to each individual (and circumstances) that make it good or bad. Christianity has been through its "dark ages" where people have misused the religion to commit atrocities. When you start believing something blindly, it is easy to get "fooled" into doing things in the name of God. This story is one excellent example of this. People ending up creating social problems because they blindly believe some stupid stuff. Other examples are "Pope telling the largest AIDS impacted population in Africa that Condoms are a no-no." or "An mullah with extremist ideas telling his followers that all Americans are infidels and should be killed" and on and on.... If anyone blindly believe the mullah or the pope, then they are causing more harm to humanity while believing that they are doing something good. So, all religions suck.
3. FYI: There are other religions that are persecuted more than Christianity. Look at other religions like Buddhism and Jainism to see how non-confrontational they are. The reason their problems are not known here is due to the lack of media interest in this part of the world.
Bottom line is that it is extremely stupid to believe that a UID is a mark of the devil. And there is no denying that stupidity is a product of religious beliefs.
Yes, my beliefs are better than yours because at least they weren't completely made up and have some basis in fact.
You are absolutely correct that persecution of Christians in America does not rise to the level of that in India, Africa, or Indonesia. Very few, if any, Christians are murdered in the U.s. merely because of their faith.
But what persecutiuon there is in the U.S. is sometimes subtle, and no less intentional.
For instance, tolerance and promotion of anti-Christian policies, denigration of Christian holidays while offering admiration for other relgious observances, just in general, but... If this is all the persecution we will suffer, I am blessed indeed. Two weeks ago I listened to a pastor from India name his friends and fellow pastors that had been killed for their faith. Persecution in America is relatively inconsequential. Real, but nothing to fear for my life over.
But it is persecution. And it is intentional, and intended to do harm. Fortunately, we are not in fear of our lives nor loss of our property.
Not that Christians are any bastion of morality. We are, of course, as flawed as anyone else. But we are forgiven. And admonished to do better.
It's interesting that such posts as DaveV1.0's get modded 'troll'. It was a genuine question, and the attitude that Chrtistians are trying to codify their religion in law is actually dead on. Our Constituion is largely a Christ-based document. And as such, it is intended to protect all persons, and include all. John 3:16, 'that none should perish'. A Christian nation should welcome all, without condition. As an insight into evangalism, if you try to exclude nonbelievers, you are missing opportunities for conversion and salvation. As an insight into true freedom, you must guarantee the freedom of your opposition, or you will be denied yours when they take advantage of your laws.
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
Why are you so threatened by my claim that Christians are persecuted? I didn't state or imply that ONLY Christians are persecuted so. That's your spin.
ps - Buddhists have been known to pursecute Christians in Indonesia. In India, it is a very small minority of Hindus and Muslims that are conducting the most violent persecution. Most Indians are entirely tolerant and love freedom.
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
Oh. When you put it that way, you fail. How do you know MY beliefs are not based on fact?
You know nothing of my personal faith. Ask, and I will tell you. Don't ask, and cling to your own for dear life. Forbid that there may be something else out there that is real and true.
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
Uuh dude, what?
Tolerance of other faiths is not persecution. By extension, tolerance of people who happen to disagree with you is likewise, not an attack on your own beliefs to which they disagree.
By your logic, would it also be persecution to Muslims, were your town to decide to decline to recognize Ramadan with decorations on main street?
We have a *secular* government in the United States (for good reason). The fact that our secular government may choose not to endorse Christian holidays is NOT PERSECUTION.
The US Constitution is a "christ-based" document, I guess in as much as the people who wrote it were steeped in a culture that generally revered Christianity. By that token, though you could also claim the phone book is "Christ centered" were it also written in such a culture.
What are you going on about? Did you even read my post?
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
I find it very interesting to note that mentions of so-called "Christians" killing one or two mass-murdering abortion doctors gets a higher score on slashdot than the mention of the mass murder of Christians in India. It really shows where peoples loyalties lie on this site, and their prejudices. With the exception of this and a few other articles, I usually will never even read the comments on slashdot articles because of the bigotry, prejudice, and general lack of many slashdotters. It is painstaking to get through the everyday garbage that any uninformed idiot can post here.
Point taken. I am not threatened by your statements. I want to clarify a few implications.
1. I dont agree with your portrayal of Hindus and Muslims in bad light and imply that Christianity is better.
2. India is not unsafe, violent and discriminating as your initial post mentions. Before, you cite articles of violence and compare with the west, keep in mind it is a big country in a dangerous neighborhood [pakistan, china, burma, bangladesh, srilanka,...].
3. Religion is not as good as it seems. I grew up in a multi-religious neighborhood, studied in a Christian school and have seen some bad times arise from religious issues. But have yet to see any significant good done. Keeping aside the intangible after life promises, there are not many benefits of it.
4. And as you rightly mention in your later post, it is a small percentage of the overall population that is committing these acts of violence. And the acts of violence speaks of something against the individuals involved and not the religions and not the countries. The point I want to make is that all religions have these kinds of nut jobs. And all countries have these nut jobs. The level of persecution depends on the local culture.
surely you know, it was repeated quite some times, by adherents of christian faith: God is testing your faith.
Supposedly, to filter you out whether you are fit for some afterlife orgy.
Or some such bs.
I have nothing to lose but my bindings.
Always good to see uneducated crazies are all over the world. I was worried that it was just the USA. Phew! /sarcasm
The specific version of crazy you speak of is hexakosioihexekontahexaphobic.
Big apple, new Yorik, undig it, something's unrotting in Edenmark.
You shouldn't be too surprised. The mainstream media chooses its stories carefully, and the result is that you ahve to dig deeper than CNN or MSNBC (or Fox, yes) to get either balanced reporting or comprehensive coverage of any issue.
That journalists have opinions is not a problem. That they let their opinions dictate what they write is unfortunate.
Slashdot has no pretense of fairness or lack of bias. Like any such boards, it is a product of its users. And most Americans are oblivious to so very much in the world, and I am no exception. There is much injustice and cruelty in the world that I am blissfully unaware of, indeed much in the U.S.
Hang in there. You are not alone, and not in the wrong.
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
You either have to believe that humans are eternal beings or that we live, then die, and that's the end. If Christians are correct in accepting the Gospel (that Jesus sacrificed His life for their sins), they spend eternity in Heaven. If they are wrong, it doesn't matter. If you are wrong, you spend eternity in Hell. There are no merits that will get you judged "Holy". Everyone has sinned and sin is incompatible with Heaven. That was the reason that a perfect sacrifice was necessary. If we could do it on our own, we wouldn't have required a savior. God loves you so much that He will allow you to choose NOT to spend eternity with Him. He also provided you with a way TO spend eternity with him (accepting his Son as your personal savior). Ultimately the choice is yours. You owe it to yourself to take a closer look at what Christianity REALLY means.
"1. I dont agree with your portrayal of Hindus and Muslims in bad light and imply that Christianity is better."
I didn't imply that Christianity is any better than any other religion. I pointed out, in response to a previous challenge, that Hindus and Muslims do in fact kill Christians because of their faith. It's a fact. I'm afraid there are Christians that kill others because of matters of belief also. I did not state nor intend to imply that ALL Hindus or Muslims kill, nor that they do so for matters of faith, not exclusively Christians. But a very small minority of Hindus and Muslims in Indonesia and India do in fact kill others because they oppose their religions.
"2. India is not unsafe, violent and discriminating as your initial post mentions."
And I did not state this, not did the examples I presented state this either. But there are some regions of India in particular that are dangerous for Christians, as my examples illustrate. Actually I find India an exemplary nation, one that overwhelmingly embraces diversity and tolerance, and is thriving because of it. Not perfect, but then no one claims it is.
"Before, you cite articles of violence and compare with the west, keep in mind it is a big country in a dangerous neighborhood [pakistan, china, burma, bangladesh, srilanka,...]."
I actually presented an example of persecution in Bangladesh. But the U.S. is a big country in a dangerous neighborhood. We have real enemies that will attack us if they can. And for some of them, not all, religion is the driving factor. Some just want what we have. Others see us as a threat. The motive is not so important as the intention. Do you care WHY the bully wants your lunch money? Or WHY he is beating you to a pulp?
"3. Religion is not as good as it seems. I grew up in a multi-religious neighborhood, studied in a Christian school and have seen some bad times arise from religious issues. But have yet to see any significant good done. Keeping aside the intangible after life promises, there are not many benefits of it."
I think this ignores the many religiuously inspired individuals and missions that have brought aid to the world. Mother Teresa, for example. And in India, no less. I, for one, and humbled by her example.
"4. And as you rightly mention in your later post, it is a small percentage of the overall population that is committing these acts of violence. And the acts of violence speaks of something against the individuals involved and not the religions and not the countries. The point I want to make is that all religions have these kinds of nut jobs. And all countries have these nut jobs. The level of persecution depends on the local culture."
Agreed. Even those who would claim to have NO religion can include a few nutjobs. The level of persecution depends more, I think, on the intensity of the individual.
I'm pretty much expecting most of you out there to find some way to deny the statements I made. Persecution is ugly, and no one wants to admit it exists. I think partly because none of us want to admit we stand by and do nothing. I do not point it out as if I am a victim. I am blessed beyond my deserving, just to live in America. Most of the rest of the worldl struggles just to survive. I complain I have to pay so much to play video games on my phone.
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
Hey, look, the christians are persecuting me. Fucking hypocrites.
There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
In other words, you are a bigot because of your false religious belief and wish to codify those believes into law to oppress others.
And, until marriage laws were passed stating that marriage was between a man and a woman, marriage was not defined that way, bigot.
You are anti-American and should be treated as such, you theocratic bigot.
There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
You, sir, are the most Christian person I've ever seen on Slashdot. Finally not another Atheist troll! Your post really is insightful and clearly deserves a "+10 Wisdom". Thanks so much for loving God and not being one of the stereotypical "Christians" that Atheists love to paint us like!
"Our country is not nearly so overrun with the bigoted as it is overrun with the broadminded." -Archbishop Fulton Sheen
Recently I heard that argument called "intellectual cowardice", and I think that's an excellent way of putting it. I was religiously schooled and had this very same argument put to me quite early, and considered it deeply at the time. Basically the people who can't see there could be a god and are brave enough to trust their own gut... well... they burn, and the cowards who can change the very way they see the world for the sake of a threat get rewarded. That didn't jive with what I'd been told about a just god, so either god wasn't just or a few parts of the bible weren't true. Was I looking for an excuse to not to believe? Definitely not! It just started me moving in that direction.
TFA says " since according to the Bible, everyone having the 'mark of the beast' will go to hell".
Read the Fucking Bible ! There's no such thing over there !
Christians believe your so-called "zombie" was the avatar of the system architect who designed this game. Reclassifying the avatar isn't going to change the association with the game's designer.
Christianity's essential claim is playing the game with hints from the game designer results in a higher score, and if you team up with the designer's player: you get to meet him in person (and all your fellow players) when the game is over.
You, Sir, are a liar.
Budhists and Chrysten are competantly so similar, yet completely different.
You don't see fellowservants with Chryste committing idolatry.
A Christian doesn't bear witness of self.
Yeshuah unconverted many jews out of the Synagogue of Sha'tan, and the gospels have a measurable taint of such jewry.
Jews are not from the House of Judah or the Judean fighting-tribe of Israel: jews are miscegenated druids from North Africka with Arab ancestry: Berber Canaanites that among the battles to fight against losing to Judah was to steal the identity of Judeans because their name-sake is such similar in that they use the Babylonian Talmud to over-rule the heirloom nature of the Hebrew Torah.
Pontius Pilate was a Yew born and died on Scotland, quoted as saying of the character of Yeshuah brought him to judge from the Jews, "I found no fault in this man."
Talmud jews from the Synagogue of Sha'tan only recently as of the 1800's been infiltrating all facets of societies in government and association executive bodies, are the progenerators of racism and evolution, even so-far as destroying Germany by convincing the elect a 1/2 Germanic 1/4 jewish 1/4 African human named Adolf Hitler into power: be more concerned with the 50,000 Ashkenazi jews in the Germany Army in leadership positions under A. Hitler.
Those are not Indians.
And forced religious conversions wouldn't have anything to do with the persecution these poor Christians are seeing, right?
Excerpt from Wikipedia article if you are too lazy to follow the link:
"The Baptist Church of Tripura is alleged to have supplied the NLFT with arms and financial support and to have encouraged the murder of Hindus, particularly infants, as a means to depopulate the region of all Hindus.[39] In Assam, members of the primarily Christian Hmar ethnic group have placed bloodstained crosses in temples and forced Hindus to convert at gunpoint"
God is perfectly just. There's no contradiction in how He deals with mankind. Many men try to convince themselves that God "grades on a scale" (if I'm more good than bad I'll be OK). He doesn't. It is completely pass/fail. If you are perfect (which is impossible), you will spend eternity with Him. If you sin without redemption, it is impossible for you to be in His presence. Holiness (God) cannot be in the presence of sin. The two are incompatible. We may not like the rules, but then you and I aren't God. Ignoring them isn't an option. As much as we my try, we cannot replace his rules with ours. When we create a universe out of nothing, we can set the rules for our universe. In His universe, we are subject to His rules (some I don't understand, but then I'm not God). He knew that it would be impossible for us to lead a sinless life so He provided a second way, the redemptive blood of a sinless Jesus. This is a gift (available to all), but like any gift it comes with a requirement: it must be opened and accepted to be enjoyed. You are free to refuse the gift, but the cost will be separation from God for eternity (Hell). Many people believe that God's judgement is what sends people to Hell, but they aren't reading scripture correctly. God doesn't send anyone to Hell, everyone that goes to Hell is choosing to go there against God's wishes. God's judgement (in Revelation) will be for those that are redeemed. Those that are lost (i.e. those that choose not to spend eternity with God) judge themselves. Without free will there cannot be true love. God wanted to spend eternity with beings that love Him and that is impossible if He: 1) Doesn't give them the opportunity NOT to love Him, and 2) if He reveals so much of Himself that our free will is taken away. Faith requires just a little of "not knowing" or it wouldn't be faith at all. He believed in free will/love so strongly that He even gave free will to heavenly beings (some of which chose to reject God).
Use your intellect to investigate God's plan for humankind and you won't need to "trust your gut", you will have assurance. Don't let others tell you what God has said (many of them are VERY wrong), investigate it yourself. Christianity isn't as much a religion, as it is a relationship (with God). That is what He wants.
Our 10 million community in India has decided to boycott UID because,
Economic mobility != Social mobility (http://to./68j)
There are 17,000 castes aka cults (http://to./4msn) in India.
And they hate each other whether we acknowledge it or not.
They're cults because since 1947 only 1% of marriages in India are inter-caste.
We can lobby members of parliament to carve out out an independent nation for our 10 million community.
And we will be 75th largest nation by population.
I'll pay $8.5 million to MPs if they approve a Bill in Parliament to carve out an independent nation from India for our community
Thanks,
Mahadiga
I'd like to buy homeland for our 10 million people. http://twitter.com/mahadiga
are you living in 2010 or 1020 ? when was the last instance that an entire village was burnt ? do you have any facts or figures ?
"Mass murder of Christians in India" Sometimes I wonder how different the American media is from the Chinese/Arab state media. Is this the kind of crap that the media feeds the American public? No wonder the world thinks Americans are dumb and stupid. After 60 years of independence, in one of the most remote and backward corners of India (rural Orissa), a bunch of fanatics get wild at a bunch of christians who (it is believed) destroyed some Hindu images during the course of converting some Hindus to Christianity - the fanatics start killing the suspected missionaries. The state administration delays, fumbles and messes up. But within a few days, things are brought back under control, several of the fanatics are arrested, and meanwhile the country's media goes wild and almost brings down the state Government for not responding quickly enough. And this is reported by the American media as 'mass murder of Christians'? Pathetic!
If you call a few isolated incidents carried out by a few fanatics, 'Persecution of Christians', I can claim that the Americans 'persecute Indians' in the USA based on newspaper reports of crime/racism against Indians! After 60 years of independence, there have been some cases of violence by some fanatics in one remote and backward corner of the country, brought under control within weeks (don't believe that crap propaganda about attacks for 500 days - had that happened, the state Government would have been dismissed), and you have the gall to say that 'Christians are being persecuted'??
"Why are you so threatened by my claim that Christians are persecuted?" No one is 'threatened' by your claim - it does piss one off when issues are blown out of proportion and an image is created as if Christians face 'persecution' in India on a constant basis.
If someone would predict something very obscure or obvious, then it will happen all the time.
However, this is a prediction that "people will have the sign of the beast" and a number, with that they can sell and buy. In other words, something completely alien 200 years ago, but very normal now.
I'ts the same with other revelations, e.g. the locusts:
In appearance the locusts were like horses arrayed for battle; on their heads were what looked like crowns of gold; their faces were like human faces, their hair like woman's hair, and their teeth like lions' teeth; they had scales like iron breastplates, and the noise of their wings was like the noise of many chariots with horses rushing into battle....
That's clearly a vision of a helicopter, they are allowed to chase and torture the ones without the mark of the beast. Very simple, how else would somebody describe a helicopter 2000 years ago?
You will also find tanks in the revelations.
And the number 666 also has a very clear meaning, it's the sum of 1, 2, 3, 4... 36, it describes the time when all this will happen, 1 is the "world leader", 2 are two people below him etc, until 36 presidents of 36 countries which rule the world.
And yes, I am just as crazy as those Christians, the info above was given to me in a vision.
but unfortunately it is the truth.
I live in India and keep upto date on current affairs - particularly about IT related stuff. I haven't heard or read about this. It seems like an isolated incident and there must be some other vested interest behind it. Possibly inflated enumeration to claim benefits or parochial politics.
If they are wrong, it doesn't matter. If you are wrong, you spend eternity in Hell. There are no merits that will get you judged "Holy"
Oh yeah, the bullshit Pascal's Wager again. Generally, most people argue against this on the basis of actually believing having a cost in itself, which indeed is one way to argue.
Personally, I think that it is better to attack the argument far closer to the core. The main flaw in the argument is that it tries to use the Christian God as a template for all possible gods that could exists, which is plain wrong.
Specifically, it only considers one of three subsets of gods, the type that would punish you for not believing in him. In reality, there is also the possibility of a god that only would punish you if you believed in another god. And finally the god that don't punish you based on your beliefs.
Including all types of gods and you'll notice that the "You'll go to hell if you don't believe in my god" argument is plain invalid. You run just as big of a risk going to hell just by believing in the wrong god instead of not believing at all.
Like a said earlier, this is God's universe so we play by His rules not ours. Creating hypothetical alternate god's and then using them as a basis for not believing in any god isn't going to get you any closer to the truth, and that is what we are discussing isn't it? The fact that other gods "could exist" doesn't mean that they do. If you use this same logic on all other knowledge that you "believe" you possess, you would find that you would not be able to be sure about anything that you didn't personally observe. All history would be discounted (not sure I can trust the historical writers and I can think of a bunch of alternative histories that I like better). All science would be discounted (I don't trust the scientists and much of what they tell me is so far fetched it is virtually impossible to believe). This approach would guarantee confusion because there are an infinite number of alternate (and false) histories or scientific theories that can be fabricated.
Christianity believes that there is one true God, that He loves His creation so much that He would sacrifice his Son on a cross to redeem them. Jesus didn't die on the cross for those that love Him. He died for everyone, even those that hated Him. Jesus was either who He said He was or He was a lunatic. If He was who He said He was, then what He said to us it true "I am the way, the truth and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me." Note: He didn't say I am one of many different ways. Apparently it is this "one way" solution that bothers many people. If there is only one way (the truth) it is extremely important that people know what that one way is. If you were sick and your doctor told you there was only one way to get well, you would be fine with that (assuming it were true). You wouldn't create hypothetical alternative ways of getting well and find yourself unable to make a decision about the correct treatment and let yourself die would you?
Writers like Josh McDowell and C.S. Lewis started out believing much as you and set out to disprove Jesus testimony, but in the end both were convinced that Jesus was who He said He was (you might want to read some of their books as a basis for testing your beliefs against theirs). With eternity in the balance, that decision has, one might say, far-reaching consequences.
Bravo.. that is one of the better comments I've read on Slashdot.. rarely do you see someone debate as well on here.
Of course taking any side strongly your going to get a lot of feedback trying to discredit, but I appreciated reading your comments.
You are obviously unaware of the ground realities and do not know how the pastors 'educate' others about inferiority of other religions and to hate people who do not bow down to Christian ideology. In their effort to get as many converts as possible they regularly insult others and often 'buy' converts by giving economic incentives to accept Christianity.
I agree that Christians are victims of physical violence in India, you should also recognize that they are perpetrators of emotional and ideological violence and hate throughout the world.
Like a said earlier, this is God's universe so we play by His rules not ours.
Circular reasoning detected.
Sorry, while there exists like Josh McDowell and C.S. Lewis who actually fall for this kind of flawed "reasoning", I actually have a fairly firm grasp of logic. You can't use the assumption that God exists as an argument to argue for the belief in the existance of God.
If you use this same logic on all other knowledge that you "believe" you possess, you would find that you would not be able to be sure about anything that you didn't personally observe. All history would be discounted (not sure I can trust the historical writers and I can think of a bunch of alternative histories that I like better). All science would be discounted (I don't trust the scientists and much of what they tell me is so far fetched it is virtually impossible to believe). This approach would guarantee confusion because there are an infinite number of alternate (and false) histories or scientific theories that can be fabricated.
Thanks for proving to the audience that you don't understand science at all, because science works pretty much exactly like that. Historical writers aren't trusted, nor are scientists. This is why science is based is based on repeatable observation, so you don't need to trust the scientist. Historical science doesn't have the same ability to repeat observations, but can simulate it fairly well by using accounts from multiple people.
Note specifically that one of the more common failure in science is exactly to trust something too much, when it later on proves out to have been falsified or incorrectly demonstrated.
And no, false ideas don't cause much confusion since such theories have to match into the framework that is observable reality, and a general application of Occam's Razor can be used to discard theories that try to fit reality by using lots of special case scenarios. Also, good ideas in science should be put in such a way that they can be falsified. Strong ideas stand by the failure to falsify them.
And here is the fun part. As we can't observe God, we do have a rather wide net of possible assumptions that could be made. Hence, questioning your assumptions about who God would send to hell is completely valid, as there is nothing special about your assumptions that makes it hold true, and so you can use Occum's Razor.
Use your intellect to investigate God's plan for humankind and you won't need to "trust your gut",
lol
I am just happy to have an intellect, because you obviously don't.
I have a Masters Degree in Engineering so I don't think my intellect is in question. I'm sorry you feel the need to resort to low blows. I was truly trying to answer the questions/concerns in your post. I pray you will pursue the the absolute truth about God and his plan for your eternal existence.
It's a common tactic of the government to accuse Christian groups of aiding militants, and a tactic of other religious groups to accuse Christians of all manner of atrocities, including forced conversions and terrorism.
To be fair, India has seen a fair amount of this, directed at other groups as well. Christians are not the primary target.
I'm not at all certain that the BBC is an impartial reporter in this. They have an excellent reputation for reporting what they are told.
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
One report from 2008.
I guess that's pretty ancient in today's world. If it was last done in 1020, I wouldn't have bothered you.
Perhaps you should read my previous posts?
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
You are correct, sir. One does not negate the other, does it?
However, it continues to be dangerous to be a Christian in some parts of India, and has been for decades. Do you dispute that? And on a continuous basis.
By dangerous, I mean at the risk of your life.
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
"You are obviously unaware of the ground realities and do not know how the pastors 'educate' others about inferiority of other religions and to hate people who do not bow down to Christian ideology."
Some Christian pastors do, indeed. This is regrettable. But my pastor, for one, does not. You cannot judge a philosophy by its abuse.
"In their effort to get as many converts as possible they regularly insult others and often 'buy' converts by giving economic incentives to accept Christianity."
I'm unaware of this, but I would not be surprised that it happens. Again, I would not be in a church that did this, nor support them.
"I agree that Christians are victims of physical violence in India, you should also recognize that they are perpetrators of emotional and ideological violence and hate throughout the world."
And here you continue to make the blanket assertion that 'Christians' are 'perpetrators of emotional and ideological violence and hate throughout the world.' Yes, some do, I am afraid. The majority? Hardly. Is it taught as a basic tenet of Christianity? Nope.
Again, I know my posts may seem to some to indict all of India as guilty of violence against Christians. You seem to have taken that tack in reverse, and so far explicitly.
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
Christians today are less violent than those that came before them
Because they are less Christian. They don't follow the instructions in the Bible, because they don't bother to read it. Christianity in America is a Tony Robbins rock concert, where you park your ass for an hour and clap your friends on the back for being such good people.
Don't get me wrong, I'm glad no one reads the Bible. It's been misused too many times to be worth the good parts sticking around. But the idea that there is some scary number or mark that will make the invisible Sky conscience angry at you for being the person that he created is. Fucking. Stupid. Full stop.
" continues to be dangerous to be a Christian in some parts of India" Agree only partly, with emphasis on the fact that those 'parts of India' are less than 0.0003% of India's land area. More importantly, it is dangerous for Christians in that 0.003% of India only if they try to convert tribals and other backward communities to Christianity. I'm not saying this is a good thing - just stating facts. "and has been for decades" Vehemently disagree! What nonsense - the only 'communal riots' India has had for 'decades' were Hindu-Muslim. Tell me where you get your information on 'persecution occurring for decades on a continuous basis'?
I did not reference incidents from the 1980s. That's merely two decades. But since Christian missionaries have been visiting India, they have been opposed, and that opposition sometimes takes the form of violence, even to the point of their deaths.
India is by no means unique or the worst offender in this, by any measure. But you are determined to either minimize my statements, or explain them away as insignificant. On both counts, I understand, but you are trying too hard and losing the fight on the facts.
I was born in Bangor, Maine. Among my hometown's claims to fame, the death of an entirely innocent young man, a good kid, who was thrown off a bridge to his death merely because he was gay. In the 70s, I took to wearing bandannas around my neck, just cause I thought it was cool. I was mistaken for gay from time to time. I also did some club DJ'ing, and that enhanced the impression. I didn't get much crap really, but I know how it could have gotten out of hand. Charlie Howard really paid with his life because he was just a kid, and hadn't learned to watch his behavior in certain situations. Frankly, he should not have to.
So why is it so difficult for you to accept the truth about India? It's an imperfect place, like Bangor Maine, but India is much, much better than many nations, and I do not condemn it for its flaws. Certainly it is much, much more tolerant than most of the Middle East.
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
"Religion was born when the first con man met the first fool." --Mark Twain
I'd like to buy homeland for our 10 million people. http://twitter.com/mahadiga
Thanks for proving to the audience that you don't understand science at all, because science works pretty much exactly like that.
Confusion abounds: Who said we were talking about science here? I certainly didn't.
Historical writers aren't trusted, nor are scientists.
I beg to differ that historical writers aren't trusted. I believe you will find that if they are not, we have VERY little history because there isn't much external evidence (other writings) for most of the history we "accept". This is the "double standard" people employ when it comes to historical writings in the Bible. They want "proof", but accept other historical writings with little or no proof whatsoever.
This is why science is based is based on repeatable observation, so you don't need to trust the scientist. Historical science doesn't have the same ability to repeat observations, but can simulate it fairly well by using accounts from multiple people.
Note specifically that one of the more common failure in science is exactly to trust something too much, when it later on proves out to have been falsified or incorrectly demonstrated.
And no, false ideas don't cause much confusion since such theories have to match into the framework that is observable reality, and a general application of Occam's Razor can be used to discard theories that try to fit reality by using lots of special case scenarios. Also, good ideas in science should be put in such a way that they can be falsified.
Science projects and accepts "theories" as facts all the time. Prove what many accept as evolution to me. Not the evolution of species when subjected to different environments, but the evolution that teaches that sperm whales and butterflies evolved from the same single celled organism. You accept lots of "science" that can't truly be proven. You have faith in the scientists until proven otherwise.
And here is the fun part. As we can't observe God, we do have a rather wide net of possible assumptions that could be made. Hence, questioning your assumptions about who God would send to hell is completely valid, as there is nothing special about your assumptions that makes it hold true, and so you can use Occum's Razor.
You see I believe that we have and can observe God and He has given us a clear set of guidlines. I also stated very clearly (earlier) that I believe strongly that God doesn't send anyone to hell. They choose to go there themselves. Works like this: You are in a burning building and I tell you that all the ways out are blocked except for one. You don't like that answer because you are a smart guy and there must be more than one way and I'm being completely intolerant of your belief that there is more than one way out. So you don't take the exit that leads to safety...
Nothing wrong with questions. Questions are good. Discounting any answers that don't fit in your "view of the universe" doesn't seem to fit you either.
Now I think the REAL question comes down to this hypothetical question: If God came to you right now and convinced you that I'm correct, how could you possibly document it so that it could be shared with others? The only "proof" is your word and others belief in what you say.
but the evolution that teaches that sperm whales and butterflies evolved from the same single celled organism.
Sperm whales share quite a bit of genetic code with butterflies. Ok, I havn't checked those specific two species, but more than a few species have been checked in this manner as one way to trying to verify/falsify the claims of evolutionary theory. The closer species are according to fossile content, the closer they are in genetic content. Seriously, that is as basic as it goes.
You see I believe
And I believed the all mighty Santa Claus flies around the world with his raindeers every christmas and hands out christmas presents to those who are nice. Well, at least I did until I was four or five.
He has given us a clear set of guidlines
Ok, that one actually got a laugh from me.
Are you seriously talking about the set of guidelines that has spawned a multitude of sub religions disagreeing with the interpetation of those guidelines, and that are interpeted completely different nowadays than they were 2000 years ago.
Works like this: You are in a burning building and I tell you that all the ways out are blocked except for one. You don't like that answer because you are a smart guy and there must be more than one way and I'm being completely intolerant of your belief that there is more than one way out. So you don't take the exit that leads to safety...
More like this: You are in a burning building and think the way out is through a 5 centimeter hole in the back and I tell you that you can't get through that hole but that the exit is over there. You don't like that answer because you are a believer and there must be a way through that hole or god wouldn't have shown it to you. So you don't take the exit that leads to safety...
Nothing wrong with questions. Questions are good. Discounting any answers that don't fit in your "view of the universe" doesn't seem to fit you either.
Discounting answers that plain doesn't make sense does. Beings, wether werewolfs, gods or flying spaghetti monsters require extraordinary proof. The more specific the details surrounding the being, the more proof is required.
Now I think the REAL question comes down to this hypothetical question: If God came to you right now and convinced you that I'm correct, how could you possibly document it so that it could be shared with others? The only "proof" is your word and others belief in what you say.
And why should they unless they are complete morons.
Why don't you believe all of the religious texts out there, not just those from your religion. You obviously should, if you are following that philosophy, as all those religious texts obviously are written by people who some god has talked to.
...require extraordinary proof. The more specific the details surrounding the being, the more proof is required.
Ah, now you are on to something. We are in agreement on at least one thing. I said earlier that either Jesus was who He said He was or He was a lunatic. The proof that Jesus was who He said he was is in His crucifixion/resurrection. If you would seriously investigate this event, you will find that that it stands up to your test of "extraordinary proof". Hundreds of people were eyewitnesses this miraculous event. You can, of course, discount it because it doesn't "seem plausible to you" or "you just don't believe in miracles" but given the magnitude of that decision, you should at least make certain that you make an informed decision about it. Either way, you are an eternal being and like it or not, God will continue to purse a personal relationship with you as long as you live.