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Officials Use Google Earth To Find Unlicensed Pools
Officials in Riverhead, New York are using Google Earth to root out the owners of unlicensed pools. So far they've found 250 illegal pools and collected $75,000 in fines and fees. Of course not everyone thinks that a city should be spending time looking at aerial pictures of backyards. from the article: "Lillie Coney, associate director of the Electronic Privacy Information Center in Washington, DC, said Google Earth was promoted as an aid to curious travelers but has become a tool for cash-hungry local governments. 'The technology is going so far ahead of what people think is possible, and there is too little discussion about community norms,' she said."
but how much did it cost?
"Lame" - Galaxar
I find the phrase "unlicensed pool" a little... disturbing.
http://alternatives.rzero.com/
Like what, paying your taxes?
It is the government office saving money instead of hiring a plane to fly over the neighborhood and take pictures. Or are you going to say that you have a right to privacy from the air? Get real. A $300 fine ($75,000 / 250) doesn't sound excessive for a permit violation either. Now all those pools also need to be inspected for possible code violations. That is where it might get expensive.
-molo
Using your sig line to advertise for friends is lame.
Can somebody look up the Google Earth TOS and see if there’s anything in it that would be relevant to this sort of use?
I’d do it myself but I’m a bit busy at the moment.
Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
This sort of thing may stimulate a wider interest in practical application of camouflage techniques.
Would it have been legal or acceptable for the planning commission to drive around with a stepladder and peek over fences to find unlicensed pools?
A few years ago I was in a speeding ticket dispute (that I eventually won) where the traffic court was using Google Maps' Satellite View in order to count the number of mailboxes along the road to determine the number of houses on the road, and therefore to determine if the area was "densely populated" and therefore qualified for a lower unposted speed limit.
...the government caught me in the act of doing something illegal using public information that's been available for years now! Bad Big Brother!
Permits are hard to get around here to do anything though. Which sucks. But if you choose to break the law, you should be aware of the potential consequences and the chance of getting caught. Given the public images of homes it should not be too surprising that something like this would happen eventually.
While not Google Earth, as a county government we look at our own aerial photos (added to a GIS layer) to find unpermitted structures as well (mostly just to get them on the tax books - if someone builds without a permit we often have no idea that the structure exists, so it goes untaxed).
While I'm sure it's a LONG ways off, at a recent conference I was at one of the larger city-level governments in the state was actually discussing the possibility of using a form of sonar to track this. I'm not sure if they're just in the brainstorming phase or what, but from what he said the idea was to use it to map out the structures in the city at periodic intervals. Then between intervals you compare to the previous sweep to see anything large that's been added or removed. You filter that against what parcels have not had a permit issued, and you get a good source of info to start following up on construction without permits.
The same city had recently installed various microphones in spots around the city to auto-alert the police department when it detected gunfire (this is already in place, not conceptual). Apparently it is fine tuned enough to be able to tell the difference between an actual gun and things like fireworks and the like.
"People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
What if they used it for increasing your property taxes?
In other words, I bet that very few of those folks built those pools and intentionally tried to get away without paying.
RIP America
July 4, 1776 - September 11, 2001
I had a friend who had a neighbor with an unlicensed above-ground pool. I'm not sure what went wrong, but one day it collapsed, sending all of the water into my friend's back yard, destroying everything there. Building permits are required for good reasons, and they're usually dirt cheap (less than 1% of the project cost). If you're hiring a contractor who doesn't get a building permit, then they're probably not doing it to save you money, but to allow them to skimp on important building code details that might end up costing you a huge amount.
The speaker moxie said basically, what the gov't had been trying to do but would never be able to is what google is doing now. To put it in perspective, he asked: "Who do you think knows more about the people of Iran? It's government, or google?"
So for all the good google does, this is one small way that it hurts some. That's not to say though, that the people who have these pools are innocent. Yes, we're a capitalistic society as many think, but no, you don't pay to have the roads you drive on to be paved, you contribute like everyone else does in small amounts. And without those small amounts almost nothing would be possible as we get much more and further by working together than alone.
http://www.defcon.org/html/defcon-18/dc-18-speakers.html#Marlinspike
My abilities are only limited by my imagination
That went away sometime back in the 19th century.
How can this be considered acurate when the satellite image of my house still contains our pool that has been ripped down for over a year? I sure hope they check the date on the satellite imaagry if they even can see that (not sure if you can). Using unsolictated tools to that arn't officially sanctioned for use like this is sorta ridiculous. Not in a privacy sense, as it is public images, but in a sense on a basis on how feasbile it is as proof when its not a standard tool for that purpose.
How does that change anything? An aerial photo of a city is still public information, right? They already do fly-overs with helicopters looking for building footprints that don't match the zoning.
"Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
Do you have it in a fenced in back yard?
What about the "traditional" points of view but at other wavelengths? If your house is transparent to spectrum X - should you have a reasonable expectation of privacy in say your bedroom?
Some photography laws allow for pictures of private locations from the street, but not using telephoto optics - does that apply to satellites and airplanes use? Perhaps you could make the jurisdiction argument, but if your "camera" is located outside of the jurisdiction, but the person pulling the shutter is within the jurisdiction (e.g. programmed flight, camera, and receives images) does that muddy the waters?
I don't think this excellent reference even addresses the issue at hand.
This story reminds me of Adam Smith's reasoning of why properties in his time should have been taxed based on the number of windows, rather than hearths: both for privacy reasons (you can count windows from the outside, whereas hearths require entering the home) and to make evasion harder. When tax assessment time came around, people would brick up their hearths. Sure, you could brick up windows, but since they could be observed any time without you knowing, it makes it much harder to do.
But yeah, maybe we have a problem with the fact that the pool requires a permit, but that's a different issue. Hopefully sitting in an office using Google Earth means they're not driving around wasting gas, or hiring a plane as you mentioned.
"Anyone who [rips a CD] is probably engaging in copyright infringement." - David O. Carson
They are not using it to increase taxes, but to find people that are not paying their fair share. Whether you agree with the taxation or not is totally different than enforcing a level playing field.
To someone who's got enough money to pay a contractor to install a pool in their backyard, a $300 fine is probably the right amount to not be prohibitively expensive but still make them think about their choice of contractor the next time they hire one.
Why should it be if the image can be taken without intruding on, or even in the space over, your property? If you want privacy from above, put a covering blocking the view from above.
I don't think so. Because it could be said that anyone flying in a plane or even in a 2 story building could see into your yard (assuming standard privacy fence size). Now if you built an enclosure, or even an awning(sp?), and they sent in robot badgers to check things out. I that would be an illegal search. :0)
First off I am not a fan of Governmental regulation. I had and issue with a my township and a portable pool. The fact is that you have no expectation of privacy in you own back yard as far as aircraft are concerned. The basic rule of thumb is that anything viewable with out special equipment is considered public and a plane is not considered "special equipment". I think the licensing that they are talking about is actually the building permit with inspection documentation. Swimming pools are considered by the courts as "attractive hazards" That is why cities, towns, townships, states all require certain types of fencing, gates, locks, etc. It is also and insurance issue. See what happens when you add a pool and notify your home owners insurance company.
I have no problem with Google Earth being used in this way - it's public information.
Like 5+ year old information, most times.
What if I bought a house a year ago, and that gaping hole of a pools been filled in before I bought it?
It's not as if google earth is in any way shape or form realtime. I mean, the house I sold in January shows the backyard of 2 owners ago on Google Earth.
-- This space for lease, low setup fee, inquire within!
My abilities are only limited by my imagination
Only if they blurred out their faces first and made it real grainy. Old still overhead imagery isn't exactly the same thing as real-time close-up side-view. And in any case, how are they supposed to verify zoning? Voluntary reporting?
Tic-Tac-Toe, Global Thermonuclear War, and relationships all have the same winning move.
But just in case there's a problem. I hereby officially close the airspace above my property.
Nullius in verba
To someone who's got enough money to pay a contractor to install a pool in their backyard, a $300 fine is probably the right amount to not be prohibitively expensive but still make them think about their choice of contractor the next time they hire one.
This is a lesson for everyone. Most people just hire the guy that worked on their neighbor's house - if the job came out well. And most people don't know about all the permits, fees, zoning and other niggling little things the cities and counties put in place and I'm not sure they really care. And it wouldn't surprise me if many of those homes don't have a fence around those pools.
RIP America
July 4, 1776 - September 11, 2001
They are doing it already in Argentina for years now... Checking for illegal pools and buildings through Google Maps and airborne photos...
If it's not increasing taxes, how's it "paying their fair share".
This is without the permit in the picture since that covers the inspection and city updates of documentation. The latter being to make sure that taxation is increased accordingly.
If you throw a wing onto your house, it would raise the square footage of the taxed house which would raise said taxes. The permit is two fold: to make sure electrical and construction is done according to safety standards, and to document increases in property value. Since the right way to cover the first part is to charge each person with an inspector coming to the location to inspect and catch any discrepancies, and it didn't go that way, you can only guess what the agenda is.
-- This space for lease, low setup fee, inquire within!
Is Google evil?
I love Google, as long as it always helps me.
But why couldn't the government ferret out this information without Google? Aren't they the ones who put the satellites up there in the first place?
Know your pads. One time pad: good for cryptography. Two timing pad: where to take your mistress.
The first thing I thought of was a scene from a Cheech & Chong movie where they covered up a growing area with a tarp that looked like a swimming pool. I know... just the opposite of what we want.
Seriously, unlicensed pool? Camouflage it! Sheesh!
I have to wonder why state employees were looking at back yards on Google Earth in the first place. Which came first - looking at (spying on) the back yards - or hey, we need to catch people with illegal swimming pools. I have a great idea, why don't we use Google Earth?
http://www.acetonestudio.com
What's the specialized oil called, out of curiosity?
So tell them, there's no pool here anymore, they come check and see there's no pool, and now it's not a problem. It's not like you can just up and hide a pool you needed a permit for in the first place.
Now the crooked bastards can give themselves raises (Bell, CA) and get rid of all the Firefighters (Vallejo, CA) all time funding boondoggles like satellite photography.
I killed da wabbit -Elmer Fudd
I agree with the inspection part. With regards to the taxes, I meant that taxes owed are a function of the value of the property. Using Google Maps does not change the value of the property, nor the owed taxes, it just helps find discrepancies and cheaters.
Then you say "yeah, no that pool doesn't exist." and they send an inspector and you don't have to pay anything.
I highly doubt that your state has the power to reassess your property's value from a Google earth shot alone. They would need to visit the property; most likely by a licensed appraiser.
I don't always use unix-like operating systems; but when I do, I prefer FreeBSD.
Because when the next tax assessment cycle hits, all the people without pools will need to pay less.
Ex.
Total budget = 2,000,000
Total ratables = 100,000,000
Tax rate = 2%; if I have a 100,000 house, I'd need to pay $2,000 in property taxes.
Now, because of these pools, total ratables is 100,050,000. Tax rate is slightly lower -- so I pay $1,995 or something, because the people with pools are paying their fair share.
But it doesn't really matter, they would have been finding these pools at the time of reassessment anyway, and probably fining the owners at that time.
"Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
I would love to lay a giant sheet of light blue plastic (like a huge tarp) and just wait for the government to show up.
I judt got a nre Kinesis keybiartf so please excusr ant egregiou typos.
a pool is not a rich mans toy... they aren't *that* expensive, there are many houses well within the $100-200K range around me that have pools.
As far as pool maintenance, that has nothing to do with permits. Once it's in the books, it's not on some HP Openview in the city office while they're monitoring your pool water quality. The way that works is if the neighbor feels their yard being inundated with mosquitoes they contact the city. They come out, and fine the person if they find the water has not been maintained, then they make sure a shock treatment is applied to the water to neutralize lifeforms and to bring the water back into a stable range.
I know this because I have studied it when buying a house when I owned one, and also my neighbor decided not to maintain a pool and mosquitoes were hitting my yard, hard. A phone call and a week later, everything was back to normal.
-- This space for lease, low setup fee, inquire within!
Pool covers... that look like grass!
Someone make them now, they'll sell like hot cakes. Also pool canopies that look like lawn from above too.
Seriously? You live somewhere where the neighbor's power and gas lines go through YOUR yard? Do you not attach to them along a power/gas right-of-way, perhaps in an adjacent alley?
Here, my power and gas go straight back on my property to the utility right-of-way; the gas to a regulated manifold, the power lines to our step-down transformer; if I cut my lines, I only screw myself.
A utility right of way is what is supposed to give them the land rights to prevent exactly the kind of stupidity (on the part of the utility) you're talking about. Wiring (or plumbing) two properties in parallel through one property seems like the kind of thing only an idiot would do.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
..are those that aren't dependent on the services or income that is provided by the taxes.
Don't think you ever need the fire or police department.
Don't think you ever need a public library.
Don't think you ever need the public works department (roads paved, cleared in winter etc..)
And I hope they don't have children that go to a public school.
To those that don't want to pay taxes, shut up and pay your fair share.
The trick is to look at geo-coded images a year apart and diff the two images. Now use GIS software to overlay the tax-lot info for the places that received permits for the previous year (or so). You should be able to relatively quickly find properties that have had significant exterior work done without a permit. That being said, neighbors seem to be very efficient at ratting each other out for anything larger that a birdbath without a permit.
All generalizations are false, including this one. Mark Twain
This simple isn't new. Municipalities have been doing it for years. The use of Google Earth may be new but not relevant or note worthy.
Here in California, licensed contractors are required to take care of all permits/licenses. I would surmise that NY, being a "highly regulated" state like CA, has similar requirements.
More likely these people are wealthy scrooges who hired their contractor buddies and made a conscience decision not to pay the required fees.
I don't always use unix-like operating systems; but when I do, I prefer FreeBSD.
Pay the tax. Come on, if you have a pool, you can pay the $300 fee for it. You don't get to whine about how horrible it is that the government is doing their job efficiently.
Don't want to pay the tax? Change the law. Don't like your local government enforcing the law? CHANGE IT!
Regards
DDT
---
ECHELON is a government program to find words like bomb, jihad, plutonium, assassinate, and anarchy.
Would it have been legal or acceptable for the planning commission to drive around with a stepladder and peek over fences to find unlicensed pools?
Not legal, but totally acceptable to the legal system. Unfortunately, violation of the 4th amendment caries no real penalty to law enforcement. The exclusion of evidence is no real penalty at all, since very few defendants have the ability to even mount such a challenge. Even it does damage a particular case, it doesn't hurt the cop's career.
In this case, exclusion of evidence wouldn't even apply for several reasons. The existence of the pools would now be public record so they are open to being regulated or taxed. Also, defendants are not allowed to keep illegal items even if uncovered during an illegal search.
I'm on your side, but until the personal immunity that cops and prosecutors enjoy is abolished, they can do anything they want. They might not win every case, but what do they care. Law enforcement has a saying, "might beat the rap, but can't beat the ride".
Zoning is important. It's what keeps cities from looking like spaghetti. My wife used to work in the local city's plans and permits division. You'd be amazed what some people come in there looking to do. Zoning is a good thing and having qualified engineers review your plans is super important - trust me.
And FWIW, $75,000 was collected for 250 people. That's $75000/250=$300 bucks per person. That's the fine - I'm guessing the permit would be cheaper. Three hundred bucks to have a qualified engineer review your pool plans to make sure it's not a deathtrap that will kill your neighbor's kids when they sneak into it is money well spent. To my way of thinking it is an excellent thing these guys are using Google Earth to go find these cheap morons. Another example of technology making the world a better place.
It is worth mentioning though that the permit might be more expensive than the fine. Sometimes that is the case. I know of an example. My wife used to tell people straight up when they would try to purchase the "moving a huge thing through your city on the freeway" permit. She'd tell them the cost. They would complain. Smart ones would ask them how much the fine is, and she would tell them the truth - a number about half the cost of the permit. They would both share a laugh, and she would wish them a good day and hang up.
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
That's good stuff. I've still got half a pallet of it left over from my grandparents old hardware store. It works wonders on all kinds of problems.
Exactly, this is in fact your government being MORE efficient. I'm betting that the power to run Google maps was a lot cheaper than it would cost to power a truck driving around town.
Bravo to this city government for saving the tax payers money!
considering 50% of the citizens don't pay income taxes, I agree! it is time for them to start paying their fair share...
Thanks to file sharing, I purchase more CDs
Thanks to the RIAA, I buy them used...
I think before you mention something about paying your fair share of taxes, try doing a search for the highest taxed areas in the US. I'm pretty sure long island comes up at the top very close to that.
Fair share went out the door a long time ago. Besides this isn't a tax, it's paying to get a permit.
Hey! I'm a libertarian douchenozzle, and although I find the idea of a mosque at the site of a terrorist attack to be a little...strange... if they want to build it, and the people that live nearby don't mind, they should be able to.
So am I less libertarian, or less douchenozzle-y?
Now, because of these pools, total ratables is 100,050,000. Tax rate is slightly lower -- so I pay $1,995 or something, because the people with pools are paying their fair share.
Let me know how that works out for you.
... which is vital. If a person builds a pool and skips out of the permit, they could find themselves in dire straits should someone ever drown in said pool. If proper safety specs are not met, the pool could be dangerous in how it was designed and built. And in some cases, if a person is too cheap to get the permit, they're likely getting the pool for as cheap as possible.
Permits are necessary for displacement of land. If you remove trees to put in your pool, you're losing one of natures ways of keeping erosiion under control and other environmental issues that might take place. When a neighborhood gets some massive flooding, and the county has worked to ensure proper drainage for that home and neighborhood and now someone comes along and builds a pool without considering that drainage, that pool may upset the designed flow and cause flooding in certain circumstances.
Besides, permits that they are dodging, their may be additional taxes and proper insurance that is required. People who do this are very selfish.
I think (not sure) that city govt. personnel don't have permission to just walk onto someone's property even if they suspect unlawful building. Google Earth allows the city/county employees to perform the jobs that we, the tax payers pay them to do without violating any laws.
I'm perfectly happy that they have found a safe and legal way of enforcing city/county ordinances.
Life takes interesting turns, but the most interest is when you're off the beaten path.
Upon Googling, I think I'm mistaken about contractors being *required* to obtain the permits.
I was going by my experience when I hired a company to replace my fence a few years back. The contractor didn't get a permit (which cost nothing) and when the local inspector came by and bitched about it, he told me it wasn't my problem - that the contractor should have taken care of it.
I don't always use unix-like operating systems; but when I do, I prefer FreeBSD.
Now, I do think these sorts of laws are often too restrictive, but owning property has never really been absolute.
1) Government's ability to seize property
2) Squatter's rights
3) Easements and rights of way
4) Ancient lights and related restrictions to prevent you doing things that are a nuisance to neighbours.
All these go back centuries.
if they want to build it, and the people that live nearby don't mind
I'm sorry, but you'll need to turn in your libertarian douchenozzle card immediately.
I don't always use unix-like operating systems; but when I do, I prefer FreeBSD.
why is it the self professed 'defenders of liberty' don't seem motivated enough to actually exercise their liberty and work to change the laws that they seem to detest so much?
Maybe, just maybe, you really are a crackpot and are 'wrong'? just sayin
People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people
What happened in this specific case-- a pool-- was that a pool naturally attracts children. So you have to put up fences. And if you don't have kids, that won't get you off-- because kids might trespass in your yard to swim in your pool. THINK OF THE CHILDREN!
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
The biggest infringement is the property tax.
It works out just fine.
This is exactly the situation I'm in now. My town was reassessed this year, and my taxes went down, even though our budget went up. Why? Because the total ratables went up more than the budget did, largely because of improvements to existing houses (almost no new construction in my town).
"Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
In a sane world, if your kids drowned in my pool, on my property without my permission, you, as their parent, would be held responsible for trespassing, and that would be the end of my involvement in it, other than cleaning them out of my filter. Additionally, if your kids are too fucking stupid / incompetent to survive a swim, then perhaps its best if they die anyway... a neutering might be a good punishment for you as well, seeing that as a parent, you're a complete and utter failure.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
No, you just posted a flamebait-laden reply to something, and someone decided (justifiably) to spend their mod points on it.
When you write a post constructing a strawman, and then calling people names for "supporting" your strawman, you tend to attract flamebait mods.
--Jeremy
Jesus was a liberal
The city in which I live has outrageously high property and vehicle tax. The saving grace is that property is valued lower than surrounding areas so the actual taxes paid are somewhat comparable. Vehicle tax, however is even higher than in some wealthy towns in the region. So what do a lot of people do? Register their cars out of state. A friend who worked at a dealer for a while told me that on a regular basis someone will ask to have their car registered out of state. Supposedly there are city employees responsible for finding these tax dodgers but they obviously aren't doing their job particularly. In my immediate area there are several people with out of state plates who apparently haven't been caught in at least a year.
I believe the government is overtaxing us. I'm convinced high taxes will never help the economy. That said, the law is the law and I fully support the government going after people who haven't followed proper procedure and are dodging taxes.
"what ever happened to owning property?"
You don't own property in the USA, you merely rent it from the govt.
Just try not paying your property taxes for a period of time, and see how long you still 'own' said property.
Exceptions of course for states with no property tax...but you get the idea.
I wonder... You'd think they just want the tax money. So, if all else fails, only then will the property be sold to get money, just like with other unpaid debts. Now some places might have different laws, that state that unpaid property taxes specifically lead to losing the property, but I've never heard of such laws, and if they exist then that's pretty unfair and unusual.
Now then, you might argue that property taxes are evil. But property taxes are type of tax that is just common sense and easy to justify. The property is unavoidably protected by the military and the police forces of the country, so it makes sense that the property owner has to pay for the protection. If you don't want the protection, then don't pay, but don't complain either when nobody stops somebody (ie. the police, but that's beside the point) from coming and seizing it.
Child falls into pool, drowns. Worse yet -- child playing in pool, pool drain unsafe, disembowels child by sucking out colon through anus -- not funny, happened in my home town recently, the girl died a couple of days later.
Are towns on a money grab? Probably.
Is it true that there is "too little discussion about community norms" ...? Of course not -- go surf blogs, tweet some tweets -- this world is not lacking for discussion.
-kgj
If you don't want the protection, then don't pay, but don't complain either when nobody stops somebody (ie. the police, but that's beside the point) from coming and seizing it.
Ah, so it's a protection racket!
BTW, this argument doesn't quite hold. If you attempt to protect your own property, by shooting at the police who come to seize it when you don't pay your taxes, then (if they take you alive) you'll be charged with murder. If you were really free to choose to opt out of the protection, then you should be free to use force against anyone who comes to take your property, including the police.
Personally, I think property tax is mostly a scam. Police should be paid for from general sales taxes. Everyone has to eat, so restaurants and grocery stores in the area will always be bringing in tax revenue. More revenue can be had by adding extra taxes to bars and restaurants (than for staple foods at grocery stores), and by adding taxes to utilities like power, water, trash, etc. You should never be in danger of losing your property through non-payment of taxes on that property. The only place where a direct tax on the property makes any sense is for fire protection.
So the US pay officials to spend hours poring over Google maps to find violations, whereas India sets up a Facebook page to report violations and instantly rakes in the dough. Knowing suburban neighbours, I'll give good odds as to which method will yield better results for pool violations...
Phillip.
Property for sale in Nice, France
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Again, accidents are not supposed to be lottery tickets.
In other news the sales of swimming pool sized military style camouflage meshes is up in the New York area...
You can't handle the truth.
My dad got flagged for a pool. It was a blue tarp.
Responded as such and all was well.
-nB
whois gawk date unzip strip find touch finger mount join nice man top fsck grep eject more yes exit umount sleep dump
Have you heard of the concept of "attractive nuisance"? When you're building a pool, you know - unless you're an idiot - that it's going to attract the attention of kids and that not all kids will have learned to swim (or even have had the opportunity to do so) and you can't expect kids to assess risk. The law on attractive nuisance exists because of dangerous assholes like you who will quite happily build pools with no fences, knowing that they will attract small kids and that some of them will drown in it, because they think that any kid who doesn't miraculously have the full knowledge and skills of a normal adult deserves to die as a result.
It's called zoning and planning, but what it is, is malignant interference with your liberties.
If it's your land, and what you do there does not physically affect anything beyond your land's boundaries (chemical, fire, high level sound waves, overhangs, undermining, water flow... the obvious things) then I really can't see the government having any role at all.
The swimming pool is considered an "attractive nuisance." On a hot summer's day it has the potential to draw in every kid in the neighborhood.
Your neighbors don't like coming home to see a hearse pulling around the back of your house. They don't want to hear that a toddler drowned in your pool.
They don't want to hear that a nine year girl old was electrocuted in your pool.
I sit corrected, sir. I wish the county I lived in worked that way...
If you don't want the protection, then don't pay, but don't complain either when nobody stops somebody (ie. the police, but that's beside the point) from coming and seizing it.
Ah, so it's a protection racket!
BTW, this argument doesn't quite hold. If you attempt to protect your own property, by shooting at the police who come to seize it when you don't pay your taxes, then (if they take you alive) you'll be charged with murder. If you were really free to choose to opt out of the protection, then you should be free to use force against anyone who comes to take your property, including the police.
But you are free to use force to stop the police! If they still get you, it just means you were not using enough force...
But more realistically, your property is also protected from a criminal gang invading it. Just imagine a property with anything valuable, that is not protected by the society around it? How long do you think it'd take for it to be pillaged, if it were outside the protection of law enforcement system?
Personally, I think property tax is mostly a scam. Police should be paid for from general sales taxes. Everyone has to eat, so restaurants and grocery stores in the area will always be bringing in tax revenue. More revenue can be had by adding extra taxes to bars and restaurants (than for staple foods at grocery stores), and by adding taxes to utilities like power, water, trash, etc. You should never be in danger of losing your property through non-payment of taxes on that property. The only place where a direct tax on the property makes any sense is for fire protection.
Nah, fire protection could be a service bought, and you could just not buy it. The fire department would then just let your property to burn to ground, while only protecting the properties around it if needed. And failing that, you'd be liable for allowing fire to spread from your property, and of course you'd be liable for the cost of having the fire engines there spraying water on your neighbors house.
But can you name a place where you will specifically lose your property if you don't pay the taxes? Otherwise, your property is no more at risk of being seized for unpaid property taxes, that it is in danger of being seized for unpaid sales taxes. So no difference there.
Value of property corresponds quite well on how much protection you need from the society, too, so it's very fair. If your protected properties are worth more, you get more value from the protection, and therefore pay more for it too. Note that property tax is also effectively sales tax, because shops, warehouses etc need to be on some property, and therefore they are taxed, and the cost is of course transferred to the price of the goods being sold.
Sure. It's ridiculous. Anything else you want to know? Now, have you heard of the concept of raising children with supervision until they are capable enough to go unsupervised, and then letting them go unsupervised?
Perhaps more to the point, have you heard of the word "responsibility"?
Why should *I* be responsible to fence my property in order to try and (inadequately and inappropriately and indirectly) parent your children for you?
If you want to have kids, you bear the responsibility for that decision. In every way. Not me. I didn't ask you to have kids, and I could care less if you do or not. Just keep them out of my yard and you, and I, will never have an issue. Think you can do that? If you can't, please abstain from having children. Thank you.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
Locally, inspectors know 'who did the work'
I've hired many different plumbers and electricians for work.
some people, they check up very closely on, some they don't.
every day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Random
It's threads like this that are the cancer that is killing slashdot. Fuck each and every one of you who has made this story into a total fucking waste of my time with your stupid fucking left / right talking points bullshit. Each of you have totally ignored what the article was about and instead have engaged in masturbation of your own ego's. I hate all of you and hope you die of the AIDS from swimming in these pools. Above ground or not...
Hackernews is looking better all the time...
Because, as economics teaches us, every buyer always manages to obtain perfect information about what they're buying.
Are you adequate?
Living in mosquito country, Grand Forks has a wonderful system in place! Besides offering summer jobs for young adults, the benefits of having a summer round mosquito control dropping this precious oil into channels,stagnant pools and other open water areas(besides pools I'm sure) offer residents something to mention besides the weather.
Oh howdy der Bob, How's it gowin?
Ohh not bad John, not bad. Just enjoying the wether, gunna pack up for the lake and do some toobin'.
Oh well 'at's a good idya! The mosquito count there is over a 'undred. Have a good one der!
You too!
When the count reaches a limit of ~100 for too long, or whenever they really feel like it, a C-130 from the local air force base mists the town. I'm not entirely sure what's in the second mix. Probably prozac...
GENERATION O98346: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig and remove a random number from the generation. T
How is this marked "Troll"? It seems very relevant to the discussion.
Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
You need a license to have a pool in your back yard? You're living in the wrong country, my laddie...
Zoning is about regulating the uses of land: for example, to forbid your new neighbor from turning his house in your quiet neighborhood into a loud, high-traffic business. The pool permits stuff is about enforcement of building codes, which exist for safety.
Why is this distinction important? Because one can reasonably be very critical of zoning policies in the USA while approving of the general building codes.
Are you adequate?
Look, another moron moderator! Hey, cluetard, explaining how a mismoderated post fits into the topic at hand is not offtopic. Just so you know. Oh, I'm sorry, first language not English? Moderator powers awarded randomly? Just clicking the pretty buttons? Aw, how cute. :o)
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
These people who have surreptitiously built pools are in the wrong on two counts. Firstly, if the pools are not properly inspected when built, a corner cutting contractor [Nah.... these don't exist... ] could omit key items that could be critical for structural or electrical safety. Secondly, they are enjoying a valuable piece of property whilst not paying property tax on it. Since I pay property taxation on the full value of my house, I resent this sort of cheating. It forces up the millage for the rest of us. Since the town can now find these scofflaws at minimal cost, I expect as a taxpayer that it do so.
Moderation points are awarded randomly, and meta-moderation doesn't work. That's most of what you need to know to understand slashdot moderation.
Consequently, the primary use of negative moderation on slashdot is as censorship, but it only hides posts from those who don't set their comment threshold to -1, so it's kind of a wash.
Though I have to say, the opportunities to torment the clueless moderators are endlessly entertaining. :)
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
I don't have a problem with this.
First off, it saves someone driving around, waste gas, time, going thru peoples property, risking animal attacks, etc.
You build something, get the permit. If you don't get the permit, make sure you can't see what you built from the sky.
Ya, the gov needs money. So expect this, and everything else they've been lax on to be happening.
those unpaid parking tickets they normally did nothing about? Don't be surprised when your car is missing, probably got towed. And hey, if you don't have the money to pay it, you can buy it back at the next auction.
Be seeing you...
Or the contractors are shady bastards who skimped on getting the permits and pocketed the money.
Yes, because two year olds who can't swim are obviously too fucking stupid / incompetent to be allowed to live. We should try to make the world more dangerous, so we can filter out these morons who aren't contributing anything to society.
One time I threw a brick at a duck.
You seem to believe that "fascism" means "no ownership of property". Quite the contrary: fascism is private ownership carried to such an extreme that the state itself becomes owned.
"The first truth is that the liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic state itself. That, in its essence, is fascism—ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power." -- Franklin Delano Roosevelt.
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
why is it the self professed 'defenders of liberty' don't seem motivated enough to actually exercise their liberty and work to change the laws that they seem to detest so much?
I don't know about 'self-professed defenders', but people who actually care about liberty are moving to New Hampshire and some of the ones who have moved already are working with local groups like the New Hampshire Liberty Alliance to get those laws changed.
The results are good to date. As just one example, as of a few weeks ago there are no longer any illegal knives in New Hampshire. It's going to take a while to unwind 150+ years of bad law, but we're making progress.
When 20,000 more liberty lovers move en masse to propel the effort forward, it will get even better.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
Also, I forgot to mention, the correct way to read negative moderation on slashdot is "-1, Disagree, but incompetent to respond"
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
lol, the next thing you know you'll be paying taxes just to be able to own a TV!
I commend people making such efforts and their willingness to relocate to chase their goals.
Seriously, I do.
There are far far more people who just complain without any effort at all to remedy the problems they are complaining about.
I also look forward to Libertarianism's downfall as it simply isn't sustainable. Laws exist because someone was encroaching on something someone else felt they deserved. At some point those two forces intersect and that's where laws are made to set the rules. I see Libertarianism as the willingness to say, and to accept, 'tough deal with it' as an answer to your perceived being wronged. Not a lot of people share that view me thinks...
We can argue about where the line of intersection falls, but it will always be there.
People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people
If I don't pay RENT I get the boot. If I don't pay "tax" on my home I get the boot and likely get screwed out a fair value of my stuff affixed to that land (the buildings) because a tax auction is not usually as fair as selling a house. There are plenty of rules, regulations, and ordinances for living on this land as well just as there is with rent. I'm even forced to pay for garbage service from a duopoly. How is this not like rent??
Oh and if you rent-- part of your rental payments is also property tax - around here it is itemized and last I heard, it came out to about 2/5 the total rent! So then you are paying rent to the government just for SHELTER in my city! (its not quite direct since the landlord collects it... makes interest from it...until handing it over to the gov.) Only way out is to be homeless, which is pretty much a crime here if they spot you looking homeless. I bet we have 100s we don't know about because of this cover up policy.
-
Homesteads under X dollar amount should never be taxed. Other property and expensive homesteads should be (so bill gates doesn't homestead a million acres.)
Like to build stuff? Well, how would you like it if you make yourself a great house and then lost it because your value went up too much?
Don't get me started with the county tax assessor who you must let inspect your house or they screw you on its value - you can deny the police entry using your rights but not the tax assessor; they will penalize you. If they want to tax on value they should do it when the house is SOLD instead they estimate it. Then we have the whole history of discrimination of abuse using the property tax system... it has helped many cities steal land cheaply from farmers for expansion.
Furthermore, many areas of the USA have inadequate services like SCHOOLS because its based on property taxes. So a child in a poor area is discriminated against not only from his parents house value but all the other houses around them. This makes some states dumber than others. I had a talk with an idiot from Georgia one day - he bragged how smart they were for only paying $300 per year on his million dollar house but how bad their schools were! He had to pay $30k per year to get his kid a decent education! Claimed public schools don't work. He also complained about the lazy people around him and how many couldn't read etc.... His state is near bottom on everything and he was lecturing me about how wrong my highly ranked state was?
Democracy Now! - uncensored, anti-establishment news
Yes, and all generalizations are false.
Idiot.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
Ok, genius: Under exactly what acceptable parenting circumstances would your two year olds be trespassing on my property, unsupervised by you?
[crickets]
[birds chirping]
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. Having something that is potentially dangerious unsecured, is the act of stupidity or recklessness.
Theres a reason why all guns have a saftey, just as theres reason why all pools should be gated.
In a world where you had pure freedoms to do what you like, it'd be acceptable. So would killing people outright for any or no reason at all.
Theres a compromise involved. If such a drowning did happen, i'd blame both parties involved. The parents for loosing track of their child, and the pool owner for having a pool so easy to access that a child managed to get in and drown.
To avoid criticism; Say nothing, Do nothing, Be nothing.
My township here in PA recently started sending inspectors to every home being sold (because that's the only time they can legally do it) to look for non-permitted renovations and other work. If they find that work was done without a permit, they will not issue a new occupancy permit until the work is redone under permit.
It kinda sucks because in my township, you have to buy a $55 permit to replace a $3 electrical receptacle.
Why should *I* be responsible to fence my property in order to try and (inadequately and inappropriately and indirectly) parent your children for you?
The same reason you should be responsible for making sure your house isn't a fire hazard. Or that your car doesn't leak oil all over the road. Or that your toilets aren't dumping raw sewage into your yard and creating a health hazard.
Ok, genius: Under exactly what acceptable parenting circumstances would your two year olds be trespassing on my property, unsupervised by you?
An intruder breaks in and knocks me unconscious, and my two year old children go looking for an adult to help.
Your analogies are not accurate.
All risks are not equal. Not all regulation benefits society.
Some regulation does benefit society. Provably.
Equating building permits with universal mandatory fingerprinting or sex licenses is insane troll logic that gets you shut down really quick.
Also:
"Oh, wait, that would mean freedom, liberty and stuff. You know, stuff that frightens libtards out of their minds, people who have spent their entire lives hanging from the piggy little teats of mommy government, thinking that any degree of safety is worth giving up any amount of freedom. Yeah, much better to assume you're a complete fuckup. I guess you'd better pack up your hands and dick."
Is flamebait, in and of itself, regardless of agreement or disagreement with your position, or the merits of your argument.
I have a cover over mine that is painted to look like some light green bushes so I think I'm safe. I did notice a strange white van from some flower shop I never heard of before (Irene's Flowers maybe) parked across the street recently.. Maybe they are on to my pool.
Bad boys rape our young girls but Violet gives willingly.
Err...every state I've ever lived in?
You've never seen or heard of a tax auction held by the local govt. for unpaid taxes?
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
thanks for the great response!
Guess it's time to print up some tarpaulins with the image of a swimming pool and stake them up in the backyard just to fuck these bozos.
Is this thread tangential? Yes. Is it completely off topic? No. Is anyone forcing you to read it? No. Are you acting like a drama queen by threatening to go to some other site? Yes. Would anyone care if you left? No.
One of these days I'm going to cut you into little pieces. - PF
Is this thread tangential? Yes. Is it completely off topic? No. Is anyone forcing you to read it? No. Are you acting like a drama queen by threatening to go to some other site? Yes. Would anyone care if you left? No.
I currently have lid-locks on my eye's and am strapped to a chair in the slashdot basement complex...
My local council pays for aerial photography to identify pools that have been built without permits and to detect trees that have been removed illegally (can't cut them down if there is a vegetation protection order on them). I guess some of the cost is recovered by making the images available to Google Earth. Yes, the data goes the other way to that in the story. When I access the council GIS the photos are two years fresher than the ones on Google Earth and are higher res, but that might be due to the photos getting better every year.
I've used aerial photos from other councils in South East Queensland for my work and these were also better than Google Earth
Pool regulations in Queensland are more for safety purposes (as well as building permit purposes) as fences need to comply with Australian Standards. There are moves a foot to charge an annual fee to every poolowner to cover the cost of regular inspections, and knowing where all the pools are would be key to this.
"But can you name a place where you will specifically lose your property if you don't pay the taxes? "
Err...every state I've ever lived in?
You've never seen or heard of a tax auction held by the local govt. for unpaid taxes?
Yeah, but that's not directly for not paying the property tax, is it? It's for owing money to the government, and not being able to pay. That the money is owed because of unpaid property taxes is not directly related to property being auctioned. The property is auctioned because at that situation there's usually nothing else of value to sell. It doesn't matter if it's property tax that is unpaid or some other tax.
In other words, unpaid property tax does not directly lead to losing the property. It leads to the process used for any unpaid taxes or other fees owed to the government. Unpaid sales tax would result in exactly the same outcome (if the business owns a property that can be sold).
What might be consider unfair is, that (in most places at least, I think) property tax is tied to the property, ie. if you sell a property with unpaid property taxes, the taxes follow the property. This is of course fraud if buyer doesn't know it, but usually the sale can't be officially registered or legally valid without unpaid taxes becoming known, so this probably is not a problem.
Spoken like someone who's never spent more than 10 seconds around kids. That's about all the time it takes for a child capable of walking to wander off out of view. Kids are curious, often fearless, and not old enough to know any better. Even with excellent parenting they'll find ways to hurt themselves. A little bit of preventive measures to make swimming pools less deadly is not some grave burden upon you.
One time I threw a brick at a duck.
http://www.yelp.com/biz/the-big-duck-riverhead
The smartest man in the whole, wide world really don't know that much. - Mose Allison
Well, yes, that seems to be a norm in my community, at least.
Why stop there, what about unlicensed home extensions or driveways....keep going government, make us hate you more!
I don't necessarily believe a pool can cause damage to neighbors by leaking... never heard of such.
But that doesn't make pixelpusher's comment a TROLL.
If you believe the comment is over-rated then moderate it that way. "Troll"? I think not.
--- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!
You don’t have a problem with a mosque being built on the site where Muslims destroyed what they perceived as the symbol of US economic and financial power... and naming it after Córdoba, the city which Muslims conquered in 711 and which became a provincial capital city and “a great cultural, political, financial and economic centre” of the Muslim world?
Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
"Naiveness"? LOL... I guess it is cromulent, when you get right down to it. No need to embiggen the issue, though.
Well, anyway, look. If you have kids, you should probably fence your yard if you'd like to keep them out of hazards, like pools and dumpsters and manholes and so forth, presuming you've not yet trained them properly. This keeps your kids in an area you control and can "make safe." It is reasonably your responsibility to do this, because (wait for it) these are your kids, that you chose to have. Yours. Not anyone else's.
The other way around, that is, requiring everyone else to fence their yards in an attempt to sanitize the environment on your behalf, at direct expense to them, is economically unsound; assigns responsibility to entirely the wrong party; and is just generally stupid.
And yes, like a lot of laws are. I'm well aware that it represents the status quo; however, that is true for a lot of terminally stupid laws, like the drug laws; any law that forbids or limits an act of consensual, informed personal choice where physical and monetary effects are limited to those making said choice; blue laws; government support for superstition (in any form, including religion)... I could go on for quite a while.
Your approach seems to be "no one should object to the status quo." Mine is "when the status quo is harmful or could be bettered, one should speak up and put ideas on the table."
So between my, erm, "naiveness" (still LOL), and your head stuck quite far up your own ass, I'll keep doing it my way, thanks. Cheers.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
Well, just so you know, I've got you on my friend's list because I find your posts interesting. So, while it is a form of censorship, at least I get to enjoy reading through them regardless of what the moderators might do. ;)
I do find it disappointing that negative moderation is used as a -1, Disagree; I guess some people are insecure enough with their beliefs that they feel the first thing they should do is squelch you from voicing your own.
(I should note that I have a few people on my friend's list with whom I disagree simply because I find their opinions enlightening, and I'll even periodically upvote them in spite of my disagreement if they make a decent enough point--if not, I just won't do anything. I tend to agree with your opinions, however.)
He who has no
Thanks for your kind words, sir. :)
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.