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Richest Planetary System Discovered With 7 Planets

eldavojohn writes "The European Southern Observatory has announced that with the aid of their 190 HARPS measurements they have found the solar system with the most planets yet. Furthermore they claim 'This remarkable discovery also highlights the fact that we are now entering a new era in exoplanet research: the study of complex planetary systems and not just of individual planets. Studies of planetary motions in the new system reveal complex gravitational interactions between the planets and give us insights into the long-term evolution of the system.' The star is HD 10180, located 127 light-years away in the southern constellation of Hydrus, that boasts at least five planets (with two more expected) that have the equivalent of our own Titius–Bode law (their orbits follow a regular pattern). Their survey of stars also helped reinforce the correlation 'between the mass of a planetary system and the mass and chemical content of its host star. All very massive planetary systems are found around massive and metal-rich stars, while the four lowest-mass systems are found around lower-mass and metal-poor stars.' While we won't be making a 127 light-year journey anytime soon, the list of candidates for systems of interest grows longer."

245 comments

  1. Richest? by Skyshadow · · Score: 3, Insightful

    At seven planets, I'm reasonably sure this qualifies as the *second* richest planetary system we're aware of.

    --
    Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
    1. Re:Richest? by ChinggisK · · Score: 1

      Yea, I was about to say... if they think that's remarkable, boy have I got something to show them.

    2. Re:Richest? by by+(1706743) · · Score: 5, Funny

      Yeah, we've got a full two more planets than...oh wait...

      [tears up]

    3. Re:Richest? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is a planetary system because it orbits a star. Our system orbits the sun.

      or

      With the US deficit as high as it is I'm sure we're not the richest.

      or

      Thats only until they reclassify a few more of ours... Mercury is a Type II Quazi-Dwarf Post-collapse Proto-planet.
      Juipter is a failed Class N star so that doesn't count. Earth.. thats about to get swallowed up in a LHC created singulatiry so...

    4. Re:Richest? by stakovahflow · · Score: 1

      Careful, or they may decide Mercury, Venus, Earth, and Mars are all "not planets" anymore, too...
      Then, where will we be?

      --Stak

      --
      Holy happy hippy crap!
    5. Re:Richest? by leromarinvit · · Score: 2, Funny

      At seven planets, I'm reasonably sure this qualifies as the *second* richest planetary system we're aware of.

      No no no, you're thinking the wrong way. They've found Magrathea!

      --
      Proud member of the Ferengi Socialist Party.
    6. Re:Richest? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      One of the planets detected has 1.4 times the mass of the Earth, making it the smallest exoplanet detected yet. Wanna bet on this system having at least one more less massive and currently undetectable planet?

    7. Re:Richest? by edxwelch · · Score: 1

      That was true until the subprime mortgage fiasco

    8. Re:Richest? by Nadaka · · Score: 1

      Are they not already called dwarf planets.

      Just like our sun is a dwarf star.

    9. Re:Richest? by DirePickle · · Score: 4, Insightful

      All of that stuff's actually still here, except for the couple tons of metal that we sent to other planets.

    10. Re:Richest? by cpscotti · · Score: 1

      In fact the HD 10180'ar system used to be called "solar system" but after a few controversial events it ended up losing 2 planets and after a > it relocated 127 light years "north".

    11. Re:Richest? by Beetjebrak · · Score: 4, Funny

      Our planet will shake us off easily and life will simply continue. There'll always be prokaryotes, cockroaches and RIAA lawyers to reboot evolution. This planet has actually seen a whole lot worse than what we're doing to it.

      --
      Learn from the mistakes of others. There isn't enough time to make them all yourself.
    12. Re:Richest? by cpscotti · · Score: 1

      In fact the HD 10180'ar system used to be called "solar system" but after a few controversial events it ended up losing 2 planets and after a [insert absurd science fiction cosmic event] it relocated 127 light years "north".

      And still, /. obligatory "Preview" doesn't help.

    13. Re:Richest? by Wyatt+Earp · · Score: 1

      Depends on the resource. Sure maybe half the rock oil is gone, but not half the copper, gold, iron, lead, methane, carbon, uranium, etc.

      So how exactly has the planet lost half it's resources?

    14. Re:Richest? by city · · Score: 5, Informative

      4 years ago today we lost her... anniversarys are hard.

      --
      I am a v1ral sig. Plse c0py me and h3lp me spread. Thank y0u?
    15. Re:Richest? by sqrt(2) · · Score: 1

      We also receive material from space on a regular basis in the form of meteorites. I don't know if that balances us out or if there's a net gain/loss.

      --
      If you build it, nerds will come. Soylentnews.org
    16. Re:Richest? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yea because uranium is fucking necessary to life.

    17. Re:Richest? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      So how exactly has the planet lost half it's resources?

      Seems there's no shortage of apostrophes...

    18. Re:Richest? by mr_mischief · · Score: 1

      I must disagree with your conclusion based on your premises. If the human race has spawned RIAA lawyers which will live on and evolve after humanity is gone, I think we've left the world a much worse place with our presence.

    19. Re:Richest? by DJRumpy · · Score: 1

      I for one welcome our new RIAA Over...erp..excuse me. I just threw up a little...

    20. Re:Richest? by DJRumpy · · Score: 2, Informative

      Not likely given this 1.4 mass planet is one of the two 'missing' planets, and the other is a gas giant with 65 Earth masses. Still an exciting discovery:

      From TFA:

      “We also have good reasons to believe that two other planets are present,” says Lovis. One would be a Saturn-like planet (with a minimum mass of 65 Earth masses) orbiting in 2200 days. The other would be the least massive exoplanet ever discovered, with a mass of about 1.4 times that of the Earth. It is very close to its host star, at just 2 percent of the Earth–Sun distance. One “year” on this planet would last only 1.18 Earth-days.

    21. Re:Richest? by sznupi · · Score: 1

      "Her"? How one determines the gender of pet rock? Also, do people still weep for Ceres one and a half century later?

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
    22. Re:Richest? by Your.Master · · Score: 4, Informative

      I'm right with you on basically everything else you said, but I'd still like to suggest that in modern usage, "its" should be used for the possessive. Yes, it breaks the "rule" that you put an apostrophe for the possessive. It's a standard and useful convention that resolves ambiguity, and I can see essentially no benefit to allowing "it's" for the possessive other than shutting up pretentious douches on forums - which, don't get me wrong, is a noble pursuit.

      I don't see why the rule of "its vs. it's" is any more baseless than the rule I'm inferring from your argument, "an s added to indicate the possessive is always [either allowed to or required] to have an apostrophe prepended". I have, at least, the OED backing me up on this.

      If you go back far enough, you can find very strange spelling, grammar, words, and even letters in the English language, but that doesn't have much bearing on what's easy to understand today.

      Also, insisting that flammable is not a word is a little odd. It's in lots of dictionaries, has latin roots semi-independent of the roots of inflammable, and came into English in the 19th century. Thus, it fits the prescriptivist view as well as the descriptivist one. Yes, inflammable is slightly older.

      I would enjoy a world very much where people stopped getting pissy about starting a sentence with "and" or "because", or splitting infinitives, or other things that are perfectly valid, commonly used, and don't hurt much of anything.

    23. Re:Richest? by suomynonAyletamitlU · · Score: 3, Funny

      "Her"? How one determines the gender of pet rock??

      Obviously you ask, asshole.

    24. Re:Richest? by Tsuki_no_Hikari · · Score: 1

      Except that our star is a main sequence star.

    25. Re:Richest? by jewishbaconzombies · · Score: 0, Troll

      GOP leaders are now holding a summit to determine what free-market principals were at work at HD 10180.

      Teabaggers were last seen attempting to determine if Best Buy had HD 10180 tvs still in stock.

    26. Re:Richest? by Randle_Revar · · Score: 1

      The way I count, we have 11 to 13 planets: Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Ceres, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, Pluto, Haumea (presumed), Makemake (presumed), Eris. There could even be more, depending on what we learn about other candidate objects.

      In any case, we need a new mnemonic. MVEMCJSUNPHME...

    27. Re:Richest? by yyxx · · Score: 2, Insightful

      All of that stuff's actually still here, except for the couple tons of metal that we sent to other planets.

      The atoms are still here, but they aren't resources anymore because they have become too costly to exploit.

    28. Re:Richest? by yyxx · · Score: 1

      There'll always be prokaryotes, cockroaches and RIAA lawyers to reboot evolution.

      Ah, all species that reproduce asexually.

    29. Re:Richest? by tuxgeek · · Score: 1

      Wait a minute
      You mean to say RIAA lawyers breed asexually?
      I thought they were just the excrement of the cockroaches after consuming the prokaryotes.
      This is too weird ..

      --
      "Suppose you were an idiot...and suppose you were a member of Congress...but I repeat myself." Mark Twain
    30. Re:Richest? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, Pluto, Ceres and others are dwarf planets, we're still all planets here in the inner solar system. Though what the big difference is I don't care, as I am not an astronomer and can therefore make up my own system, so as far as I'm concerned anything large enough to become spherical under it's own gravity without igniting like a star is a planet. Pluto, Ceres, Luna, Titan etc. are planets. Yes, moons are planets. Take our moon, does it orbit us or do we orbit it? Answer is a bit of one, more of the other but we are a dual planetary system in my book. If you think that's silly, take Pluto and Charon where they both orbit a point outside either planet. They are obviously both planets if one is. Anyway, enough ranting, just saying you can define planet however you like if you don't care about scientific accuracy and think astronomers have their heads up their arses as long as you make your definition explicit.

    31. Re:Richest? by mcvos · · Score: 1

      And ignore Vesta, Pallas and Juno?

    32. Re:Richest? by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Fuck that shit, Pluto's still a planet to me, no matter what those bastard mad scientists say.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    33. Re:Richest? by g4b · · Score: 1

      mickey mouse agrees. he and his perfectly non-canine friend sure of hell wouldn't have named his dog after some rock which is to goofy to be a planet. that just wouldn't be good old mr. mouse.

    34. Re:Richest? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      his, hers, theirs

    35. Re:Richest? by Randle_Revar · · Score: 1

      AFAIK, they are dwarf planet *candidates*, whereas the others are recognized dwarf planets, although Haumea and Makemake are on shaky ground pending more information.

    36. Re:Richest? by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      Planets are like uterine eggs, asteroids and comets are like interplanetary sperm.

    37. Re:Richest? by mcvos · · Score: 1

      Vesta, Pallas and Juno used to be planets, 150 years ago.

      Yeah, they're not anymore, but I'm about as upset at that as I am about Pluto losing its full planet status. (Not a lot.)

    38. Re:Richest? by T.E.D. · · Score: 1

      The "splitting infinitves" thing is particularly laughable. The only reason it is supposedly verboten is that it isn't possible to do in Latin, and early grammarians were all Latin scholars.

      The problem with that is, of course, that English is a different language. The two aren't even all that closely related. They are both Indo-Europian, but that doesn't mean much. You might just as well try applying Latin lingustic rules to Bengali.

    39. Re:Richest? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      obviously you look for nuggets.

    40. Re:Richest? by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      "its" should be used for the possessive. Yes, it breaks the "rule" that you put an apostrophe for the possessive.

      So does "his" and "hers". It's "His, hers, its" (possessive) and "he's, she's, it's" (contraction). It doesn't break the rule at all.

      Tom's ball is his. He's going to throw it. Sally's dress is hers. She's going to wear it. The computer's output is its output, and it's going to print it."

    41. Re:Richest? by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      You were schooled in the 1980s or later, and thus, you have the world's shittiest grasp of grammar.

      I was in the 1st grade in 1958, young man, and I'll tell you you're absolutely wrong. "It's" is a contraction. "Bob's" can be a contraction or a possessive, depending on context (Bob's going to drive Sally's car). "The ball's" can likewise be either, "the ball's in play, and the ball's color is red".

      The possessive female human pronoun "hers" is a bastardization of "her's". The male version, "his", is a further-molested version of "him's".

      Do you have a citation? Because I've NEVER seen that in my life, and I've read thousands of books that have been edited and proofread by professionals; it may possibly have been the case before Shakespeare's time, but it certainly hasn't been for longer than anyone alive can remember. And if "his" is actually "him's", then "hi's" would be a contraction (but you're going to have to cite a reputable authority before I'll think you have the slightest clue of what you're talking about).

    42. Re:Richest? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't have the patience to read all of your post, and certainly not the whole thread, but "its" is the possessive, as in "his", "hers", and "its". "It's" follows the rule for contractions, which would be putting the apostrophe where characters are removed and elided (another rule that's regularly ignored and/or not understood).

    43. Re:Richest? by sexconker · · Score: 1

      Adding an apostrophe followed by an ess form's either the possessive version of the noun, or forms a contraction with the noun and a word such as "is" or "has".

      This is a simple rule that can and should be applied. There is potential ambiguity, but changing the rule for pronouns does not remove the ambiguity for nouns in general. (And any potential ambiguity can be resolved by looking at the grammatical structure of the rest of the sentence, or looking at the prior context.)

      Creating 2 separate rules creates confusion.
      Creating 1 universal rule is a much better choice.

      The apostrophe for possessives only exists to resolve ambiguity between "nouns" (plural) and "nouns" (possessive).

      The use of contractions (which many people still fight against) is what caused the ambiguity. The fact that English singular pronouns take different forms based on whether they are the subject or object, and based on whether they are singular or plural ("it" vs "they", "him" vs "them") is what allows the "its for possessive" rule to exist at all.

      You must not base a grammatical rule on lexicon.
      That is fucking backwards, and if your lexicon changes your shit will be impossible to parse without ambiguity.

      As far as inflammable goes, you're completely wrong. Inflammable is from the Latin "inflammare". Flammable is from the Latin "flammare". Inflammable was widely-used in English in the 1500s. Flammable was shoehorned in in the 1800s, and nobody liked it. It wasn't until the 1900s that "flammable" made a reappearance, based on morons doing shit wrong and blaming others. It's the same reason we have the fucking IEEE trying to force "kibi" bullshit down our throats, despite being completely wrong.

    44. Re:Richest? by Iamthecheese · · Score: 1

      *cough*helium*cough

      --
      If video games influenced behavior the Pac Man generation would be eating pills and running away from their problems.
    45. Re:Richest? by sexconker · · Score: 1

      You're an idiot.
      The ambiguity comes not from the use of an apostrophe to form possessives on pronouns, but from the use of contractions in formal languages.

      "Solving" the ambiguity for a small subset of nouns (pronouns) is pointless.

      The correct response is to deal with it (because it is possible to resolve the ambiguity by looking at the grammatical structure of the sentence and the context of previous sentences) or to bitch about contractions.

      If you were educated in the 50s and 60s, then you certainly had many teachers shitting on you for using contractions.

      I'm going to have to cite reputable authorities? Sir, I have cited as many as you, and I have a logical argument with regards to how best to use a language and grammar to achieve their fucking purpose - communication. Your argument is "No, I was never told that!".

      And whatever you're trying to say about "his", "him's", and "hi's" is completely wrong and retarded. I'll say it again: "Hers" should be "her's". "His" should be "him's". I have no idea why you're trying to create "hi's", or what you want it to mean.

    46. Re:Richest? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They're hermaphroditic parasites. The human body is just a shell. Like most parasites, their life cycle is complex.

    47. Re:Richest? by AP31R0N · · Score: 1

      Descripitivists... making excuses for the ignorant and lazy. Commonness and history are irrelevant for what is or is not a valid rule. Everyone can be wrong, and they can be wrong for centuries or for a few weeks. Logic and clarity should overrule any history or popularity of a mistake.

      Dictionaries are usually descriptivist, so asking them what is valid is like asking a kid if he wants more candy. They'll slavishly record every misuse that comes around.

      That said, context matters. In casual conversation and verse starting a sentence with "and" or ending it with "at" is just fine. It's often too difficult to summon the right word and word order in real-time. When you have time to form your thoughts there's less excuse.

      If you say, "Where's that at?", habitually... well that's just lazy and ignorant. Drop the "at" and say "where is", or clarify at what/when.

      --
      Utilizing the synergization of benchmark e-solutions to pre-workaround action items!
    48. Re:Richest? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are a complete and utter moron.

    49. Re:Richest? by RivenAleem · · Score: 1

      I always went along with the idea that Flammable and Inflammable was like famous and infamous. Flammable was one of the intended properties of the compound, but inflammable was being flammable for all the wrong reasons.

    50. Re:Richest? by Spugglefink · · Score: 1

      There's nothing wrong with using an apostrophe on a pronoun to indicate possession.

      That depends on how you define "right" and "wrong" with respect to changing language over time.

      Modern English has shed most of the case system that was present in Old English, but a few old pronouns have held onto these vestiges.

      "Thee," "thou," and "thine" have all but disappeared, and are often used incorrectly by people trying to sound archaic (eg. T'Pau in Star Trek TOS using "thee" as a subject pronoun).

      The reason "me" in "Bob and me went to the store" is incorrect is because "me" is an object case pronoun, rather than a subject case pronoun. These pronoun cases are also found in "he" (subject) "him" (object) and "his" (possessive) and so on like that.

      "Its" is a little more tricky. "Him's" appears to be unattested balderdash, but "it's" seems to have entered the language in that form in the late 16th century, as an alternative to using "his" for the neuter possessive pronoun. In that regard, you are correct in asserting that there's nothing wrong with using "it's" to show possession. No, there isn't, so long as you are not writing modern English.

      However, you assert that anyone educated from the '80s onward has the world's shittiest grasp of grammar. Where do we draw the line in time between the 1500s and the 1900s in determining what constitutes correct grammar today in the 21st century? Considering that the language is evolving (some would say devolving), almost anything can be justified, including your current assertion. We are heading for a time when "me," "their," "there," and "your" are all legitimate subject pronouns, because usage eventually defines what the norms are.

      Be that as it may, I don't think we've reached that point yet, and we certainly hadn't reached that point in the 1980s, the age of the shittiest grasp of grammar. Let's take a trip back in time then to an English grammar text from 1896, which is a little on the modern side of the middle, yet still somewhere in between. In 1896 they explained:

      LESSON 125.

      CASE FORMS—PRONOUNS.

      The pronouns I, thou, he, she, and who are the only words in the language that have each three different case forms.

      +Direction+.—Study the Declensions, and correct these errors:—

      Our's, your's, hi's, her's, it's, their's, yourn, hisn, hern, theirn.

      --Higher Lessons in English, Alonzo Reed and Brainerd Kellogg, 1896

      Take note that "it's" is pulled out as an error to be corrected in this context.

      This is good supporting evidence that while the "its vs. it's" convention has changed since its entry into the language, the rules as they are currently enforced by grammar Nazis have been in place in the current form for more than 100 years.

    51. Re:Richest? by sznupi · · Score: 1

      What does that make Theia proto-Earth?...

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
  2. Don't start planning that vacation just yet by elrous0 · · Score: 4, Informative

    For everyone here who has seen a lot of science fiction movies or lived in a trailer park where hillbilly meth-heads are routinely abducted by little green men, you might want to keep in mind that 127 light years is a very long way--an almost unimaginable distance, in fact. Most people have absolutely no appreciation for interstellar distances in general (when I was a wee lad, for example, I thought that the next solar system began right at the edge of our own). Let's put it this way: our fastest craft take about 9 years or so to go from the Earth to Pluto. At that same speed, it would take about 125,000 years to reach our next door neighbor (Proxima Centauri). And that's a mere 4.2 light years away (right in our cosmic back yard).

    So if you're planning a visit to this newly discovered system, you'd better pack for about a 4-million-year trip, one way.

    --
    SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    1. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by pspahn · · Score: 4, Funny

      Did you extrapolate Moore's Law in that calculation, Captain Obvious?

      --
      Someone flopped a steamer in the gene pool.
    2. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think I will wait a few hundred years for drive technology to improve. Only chumps will get on the slow moving 4-million year ride. I should easily beat the early adopters.

    3. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by Xiph · · Score: 1

      As far as i remember, homo sapiens is about 200.000 years old.
      Even assumnig that the technology was no problem, I wonder if we would survive such a trip, both on earth and on the ship, and how different we'd be when we arrived.
      I think it would be fair to assume, that those in the ship evolved quite differently than those on the planet.

      --
      Blah blah sig blah blah blah irony blah blah
    4. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by elrous0 · · Score: 4, Informative

      I will when Moore's Law applies to propulsion.

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    5. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by darien.train · · Score: 1

      Quantum entanglement-based teleportation will enable us to create robots, teleport them to far away lands, and then said robot will teleport back the video, sensor data, etc instantly as if it were a computer sitting on the floor next to you.

      This robot will be controlled via our brains and will essentially be an extension of our cyborg bodies. It will keep us out of harm's way while also letting us feel like we're on the ground doing the exo-planet exploring ourselves.

      And there will be snacks.

      --
      I don't know how many years on this Earth I got left. I'm going to get real weird with it. - Frank Reynolds
    6. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Please also remember to remind those SciFi / History Channel's The Universe idiots out there that us humans are quite dumb.
      We're so dumb that we have yet to find a way to leave our own planet and safely travel to others. We have yet to figure out most of
      how things work. We're at the stage of having a basic understanding of what we're made of. There might be species out there who are
      a few million years older than us. A species who has had a few million years to think about how to travel vast distances might have
      figured it out. They might have also figured out a way to generate the massive amounts of power that are probably needed and a way
      to protect their crew for the journeys that might take a few hundred years (not the 125,000 years you calculated by ignoring time
      dilation). Just because humans are too dumb to do something doesn't mean it cant be done.

    7. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by tekrat · · Score: 1

      Don't forget the Borg modifications along the way that will speed up the trip.

      --
      If telephones are outlawed, then only outlaws will have telephones.
    8. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by Pinball+Wizard · · Score: 1

      Oh yeah?

      What about wormholes? Duh.

      --

      No, Thursday's out. How about never - is never good for you?

    9. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Whew! And here I was packing my bags. I'm so glad that, after RTFA and understanding the discovery of a solar system based based only on readings of gravitational interactions, that someone finally cleared the room and explained what a light year is.

    10. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ya know, there is always someone who has to poop all over everything. These are the same people how are always screaming "impossible" until someone does it, then they scream "Oh, sure. That's easy. I could have done that!" How gives a flying fig how far away they are? It's still awesome.

    11. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by Ironhandx · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Its really too bad they partially debunked the guy that proved that the light speed limit was little more than a myth. I'm hoping for new evidence to back up a non-existance of a light speed barrier.

      Theoretically though, if you could somehow make an engine constantly add thrust and never plateau due to relativity(where max speed would be the maximum exit speed of the particles being used for propulsion) you could exceed light speed.

      I really think we need a lab somewhere in space. Something along the terms of the Jump Zero station from the Mass Effect universe where we can experiment in space without too much worry. The current situation means it isn't even possible for a raw space test, there are always fairly significant forces acting on whatever you are doing as long as you are within the solar system. Getting into semi-deep empty space for some experiments may open a lot of doors.

      To conclude: Damn you relativity! DAMN YOU TO HELL! **sob**

    12. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by sznupi · · Score: 1

      And communication into the past with not-yet-present robot, it seems?

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
    13. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    14. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by cpscotti · · Score: 1

      ...--an almost unimaginable distance..

      It bogggles me how someone judges between imaginable or not. Same thing for that "almost".

      But indeed it adds a lot to the information.

    15. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by darien.train · · Score: 1

      I've been found out!

      But seriously, controlling external devices we are linked to seems like a far more plausible solution to long-term space exploration then figuring out how to manage and maintain our extremely space-unfriendly bodies for ungodly amounts of time.

      That's not to say there wouldn't be exo-planet colonization. Just that most of the exploring would be done via proxy and snack bribes.

      --
      I don't know how many years on this Earth I got left. I'm going to get real weird with it. - Frank Reynolds
    16. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by MozeeToby · · Score: 2, Informative

      Don't know if you're being serious or not, so I'll be as succinct as possible. The fastest that a message can be sent to or from anywhere is the speed of light, which might be fast enough for you to waldo a robot on the other side of the planet, but even going out as far as the moon would be a frustrating experience, asking your robot arm to move and it doesn't respond for a few seconds. Sending information (or a physical object obviously) faster than the speed of light leads to violations of causality, which every experiment and human experience today has indicated isn't how the world works.

    17. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by Gordonjcp · · Score: 3, Funny

      you might want to keep in mind that 127 light years is a very long way--an almost unimaginable distance, in fact

      I mean, you might think it's a long way down the road to the chemist, but that's just peanuts compared to space.

    18. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by B4light · · Score: 1

      And we'll all live in little beds in huge skyscrapers where we never have to wake up because food and water is being pushed into us while waste is being extracted. In fact, forget the other planets, we'll have virtual reality already

    19. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by ChinggisK · · Score: 1

      Pft, 4 million years isn't that long, is it?

    20. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by cmiller173 · · Score: 1

      Well, it's less that 40 parsecs, and if you can do the Kessel run in less than 12....

    21. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by sznupi · · Score: 1

      Well, yes - but on the local scale. Like teleoperation of nearby semi-autonomous (doing many tedious & routine tasks by themselves, sometimes requiring direct input) fleet of robots, or some decently autonomous ones within system.

      Full autonomy for interstellar.

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
    22. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by Locke2005 · · Score: 1

      ...you'd better pack for about a 4-million-year trip, one way.

      Damn... now I'm gonna run out of clean underwear for sure!

      --
      I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    23. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by BobMcD · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Perhaps, however, we can start planning the date when they might come see us...

      My money's on 2057, personally...

    24. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by idcard_1 · · Score: 1

      Two Words: Stargate Universe!

    25. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by darien.train · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I'm being snark-serious. What I wrote is clearly a fantasy that flaunts our current knowledge about how the universe works.

      I think it's only a matter of time before a lot of previously held ideas about light, matter, gravity, etc are going to have to be heavily rethought. The emergence principal has been rearing it's ugly head quite a bit recently in unexpected places and it's possible that the speed of light is an emergent property of the universe, not a hard or set one.

      It's just a hunch, not science, and will likely be wrong but who cares. It's a comment board and I can dream of all the quantum proxy robots I like!

      --
      I don't know how many years on this Earth I got left. I'm going to get real weird with it. - Frank Reynolds
    26. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by Beetjebrak · · Score: 1

      I always liked how Borg cubes could probably be efficient shapes for their purpose in the vacuum of space. Yet in the Star Trek universe there's a lot of sound traveling straight through the vacuum all the time.. this implies some sort of tangible medium, introducing friction.. which will smooth out those sharp corners and straight cube faces quite nicely at high impulse. I'll just keep waiting for the Borg bullet..

      --
      Learn from the mistakes of others. There isn't enough time to make them all yourself.
    27. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by Beetjebrak · · Score: 1

      But.. but.. what about subspace!? Folding space! Wormholes! The prophets of Bajor will be miffed indeed by your blasphemous remarks!

      --
      Learn from the mistakes of others. There isn't enough time to make them all yourself.
    28. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by vlm · · Score: 0, Troll

      you might want to keep in mind that 127 light years is a very long way--an almost unimaginable distance, in fact.

      Something an old American would say. Everyone without gray knows very well how geosync is about half a second away or about a second roundtrip. 127 lightyears is 127 years at lightspeed. As the old saying goes, in the USA people think 127 years is a long time ago, whereas in Europe they think .... blah blah blah.

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    29. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by rawler · · Score: 2, Funny

      "The amount of electron-spitting components doubles in density every 18 months."

      There you go. I call it Ulriks law. Spread the word.

    30. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by pspahn · · Score: 4, Funny

      So you're basing a 4 million year trip on current propulsion technology? Seems pretty archaic to me. I certainly hope that in 4 million years enough new ideas would come out that our ideas of propulsion would be long obsolete.

      When I travel to distant systems, I plan on using some super cool technology that I will call Magnetic Focusing Expansion of Relative Space (MFERS for short). The idea is that we just generate a magnetic attraction between two distant points and turn the thing on. It should also have the benefit of shielding the craft from any inconvenient chunks of matter between A and B. Also, this is science. Science that I base entirely on facts that are not factual (yet). Propulsion is for cavemen. Think of this more like Propullsion.

      --
      Someone flopped a steamer in the gene pool.
    31. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by shoehornjob · · Score: 1

      Moore's Law does not apply here since funding for NASA has considerably dried up and we can't stop warmongering with other countries. Politicians don't understand that space travel is not just about conquest of territory (that's so 1400's), it's about humanity joining together to explore and advance our race. If we can't do that we'll never get off this rock and we are doomed to go the way of the dinosaur.

      --
      "We are just a war away from Amerikastan. When god vs god the undoing of man." Dave Mustaine
    32. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by gmuslera · · Score: 1

      It is almost unimaginable? So you can imagine it or think that it is harder to imagine than the distance to proxima centauri? I can't properly imagine the distance to the moon, more than as an abstract thing, like in around 400k times a kilometer, or a bit more than a light-second, or a millon of "are we there yet?" during the road trip. But if that qualify as imagining the distance, then worth the same as imagining the distance the border of the visible universe.

    33. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by BlueStrat · · Score: 1

      Quantum entanglement-based teleportation will enable us to create robots, teleport them to far away lands, and then said robot will teleport back the video, sensor data, etc instantly as if it were a computer sitting on the floor next to you.

      Is that before or after we send John Travolta to teleport the giant poison-gas-carriers to depopulate all the "animals" from the "client" planet? Or do we fire AGMs at their home-trees? I guess it depends on if the natives are tall & blue, I suppose.

      Interstellar travel is hard!

      Strat

      --
      Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
    34. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by Cold+hard+reality · · Score: 1

      Moore's law doesn't apply here regardless of funding. And it won't in microelectronics for much longer.

      Rocketry reached something very close to current peak efficiency a few years after WWII, and there's no physical process in sight for improving it.

    35. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by jonfr · · Score: 2, Insightful

      In reality, 127 light years is not that far away. The most distance objects that we see are close to 13.4 billion light years away from Earth.

      We are seeing the system as it was 127 years ago. So it is a stable system, with planets in stable orbits. The question if there is life there or any planet in size range of the Earth are different questions, and require a different method to figure out.

      This discovery however shows that out solar system is not the only solar system out there with more plants then two to three as have been discovered around other stars before this discovery.

    36. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by sznupi · · Score: 1

      If only politicians were the only thing stopping that humanity thing from cooperating on all those great ideas. At least they surely aren't a reflection of said humanity, nope, no way.

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
    37. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      If we can't do that we'll never get off this rock and we are doomed to go the way of the dinosaur.

      We're going to turn into birds? Awesome - I always wanted to be a seagull!

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    38. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by corbettw · · Score: 1

      I have a seriously hard time understanding how going faster-than-light could violate causality. If you go faster than sound and arrive at a location before the sound of your engines does, it doesn't mean no one can interact with you until they hear you coming. Light should work the same way: event A happens at a given time and the light reporting that event begins spreading out. Observer B is located one light year from event A's location and starts moving at twice the speed of light towards A. B reaches A six months later, and flew right through the light reporting A's activity at about the 3/4 mark. When B arrives, it should be six months in the future after A happened.

      Just seems like common sense to me.

      --
      God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
    39. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by DJRumpy · · Score: 4, Informative

      It's funny that you should mention that. They are already developing new propulsion systems that no longer require solid rocket fuel. This one for instance can shorten the trip to mars to just about 3 months:

      Variable Specific Impulse Magnetoplasma Rocket

      http://spaceflight.nasa.gov/shuttle/support/researching/aspl/index.html

      The Advanced Space Propulsion Laboratory is developing a new type of rocket technology, the Variable Specific Impulse Magnetoplasma Rocket. This plasma rocket drive is not powered by conventional chemical reactions as todays rockets are, but by electrical energy that heats the propellant. The propellant is a plasma that reaches extreme temperatures 50,000 and above. Some scientists call this the fourth state of matter.

      This new type of technology could dramatically shorten human transit times between planets (about 3 months to Mars). Not only will planetary missions be fast, but the plasma drive will propel robotic cargo missions with very large payloads (more than 100 tons to Mars). Trip times and payloads are major concerns when using conventional rockets.

    40. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by darien.train · · Score: 1

      Ugh. Avatar hasn't even crossed my mind. I was thinking more like Terminator meets Snow Crash meets Star Trek.

      --
      I don't know how many years on this Earth I got left. I'm going to get real weird with it. - Frank Reynolds
    41. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by DJRumpy · · Score: 1

      I missed this one. They are also looking at real designs for Antimatter Drives:

      http://www.transorbital.net/Library/D001_S01.html

    42. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Looks like you've been toking too many Regenerative Electrochemical Enhancements Focusing Expansion of Relative Space (REEFERS)

    43. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by Lars+T. · · Score: 1

      Interstellar travel is hard!

      Strat

      Same thing has been said about (among other things):

      • using fire
      • using animals as means of transport
      • using animals to transport larger loads
      • traveling over rivers
      • traveling along the coast
      • traveling far off the coast
      • finding a seaway to India
      • going to the poles
      • going to the Moon
      --

      Lars T.

      To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck

    44. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by n1ywb · · Score: 1

      It's a long way to travel with current technology. But communications could be possible. 127 years is a long time to wait for a reply. But it would be terribly significant just to detect signals, even without two-way conversations. At least it lends hope to projects like SETI. The more systems like this we find, the less likely it becomes that we are alone in the universe.

      On the other hand it's always seemed likely to me that life on other planets, if it exists, and even if the beings are sentient, is probably so unlike life on earth that any hope of meaningful communication is small. Most animals only really care about food and sex, and that's all they're likely to talk about. Deep down it's probably all humans really care about either.

      But hey, maybe the universe is populated with English speaking hominids like in Star Trek. Everything else on that show has come true (communicators, beam weapons, the iPad).

      --
      -73, de n1ywb
      www.n1ywb.com
    45. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      We are so dumb that some of us haven't learned how to format sentences and paragraphs yet.

    46. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by nofx_3 · · Score: 1

      This creates a paradox. Imagine in your A and B scenario that B is stationary and A flies to B faster than the speed of light using some as of yet undetermined method. When A arrives, he/she quickly pulls out a telescope or some such device, turns around, and watches her own arrival. How can she already be there if she is just arriving?

      --
      Visualize Whirled Peas
    47. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by Darkfire79 · · Score: 0

      I dunno, those trailer park hillbilly meth-heads are an awful crafty bunch..

    48. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by Amigo+Van+Helical · · Score: 1

      Vacationing, yes, that's not in the cards as far as current science knows. But detecting life! Now that would be something! And (somehow) detecting sentient beings would be a game-changer.

    49. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by sznupi · · Score: 1

      Even better, a container (ship) would leak everything stored inside on such timescales. It's probably a good idea to aim at max ~1 thousand years journey - in which case the Universe limits us to absolutely nearest stars, and to some light mode of transport; via embryos for example. Alternatively - use full (advanced & small) industrial base to maintain minicivilization while feeding off comets/etc.; this oen will take really long time.

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
    50. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by Bemopolis · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Theoretically though, if you could somehow make an engine constantly add thrust and never plateau due to relativity(where max speed would be the maximum exit speed of the particles being used for propulsion) you could exceed light speed.

      Except that it's not the plateau of the exit thrust that stops it, it's the increase in inertia of the rocket as it approaches light speed, which approaches infinity as the rocket speed approaches the speed of light.

      To take an optimistic view, time dilation does slow the clock on the ship relative to the Earth, so a passenger on board can get to, say, Alpha Centauri in one day of shipboard time. The guys back at NASA, though, still have to wait eight years to see if you made it (four years for your arrival, four years for your triumphant radio message). Physics is cruel, but it's not arbitrary.

      --
      "I guess the moral of the story is, don't paint your airship with rocket fuel." -- Addison Bain
    51. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by Atryn · · Score: 4, Funny

      How can she already be there if she is just arriving?

      I hope someone can come up with a better example... she isn't "just arriving", the light is "just arriving". If you cannot separate one's "self" from the light representation thereof, have fun in front of the mirror!

      Kinda reminds me of the Joo Janta 200 Super Chromatic Peril-Sensitive Sunglasses...

      --
      Come play Moral Decay!
    52. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The moon is easy. Many cars travel that distance before the motor shits itself.

    53. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by karlwilson · · Score: 1

      So I've been blazing with my friends. So I'm a pothead. Who do you think you are? Isaac Fucking Newton?

    54. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      stealing lines from Douglas Adams, are we?

    55. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by lennier · · Score: 2, Funny

      Well, you take a double-blind test panel of psychology students, get them to sign a mental health waiver, and ask them to imagine a set of different astronomical distances.

      Then you develop a graded imagination test: probably something involving Legos and crayons.

      Finally you screen out the students whose minds have boggled due to failure* of imagination, remove them to a secure hardened psychiatric facility**, and continue testing. At 100% failure rate, you have a known unimaginable concept. You then put it in a sealed box with memehazard logos, affix anti-scrying tape, and dispatch to the pareidolon vault at the Department of Unthinkable Conjectures.

      It's not pretty, but it's science.

      * Imagination can fail in many ways, some more spectacular than others
      ** Do not on any account attempt this with psychology lecturers.

      --
      You are not a brain: http://books.google.com/books?id=2oV61CeDx-YC
    56. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by Antisyzygy · · Score: 1

      Good luck manufacturing enough anti-matter to make a drive like that work. I firmly believe it will happen one day, but I doubt you or I will be alive.

      --
      That brings me to an interesting point, / . is just "the ramblings of socially-inept, technology-literate news-mongers".
    57. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by Antisyzygy · · Score: 1

      No. Our future will be as Morlocks.

      --
      That brings me to an interesting point, / . is just "the ramblings of socially-inept, technology-literate news-mongers".
    58. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by sea4ever · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Wait a second here, this sounds familiar.

      When A arrives, he/she quickly pulls out a telescope or some such device, turns around, and watches her own arrival. How can she already be there if she is just arriving?

      When the speed of sound is broken by a jet, they could actually fly for quite a while, stop, turn around, and then hear the sound of them arriving. Why should light be any different? I don't understand why light and time are seen together. I think it should be something more akin to a sort of faster version of sound..except it's light.

    59. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by Antisyzygy · · Score: 1

      Yes but if we have cyborg bodies then it seems we may be able to make ourselves somewhat immune to space catastrophes. I.e. uploaded memories, radiation resistant bodies, ect.

      --
      That brings me to an interesting point, / . is just "the ramblings of socially-inept, technology-literate news-mongers".
    60. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by don_bear_wilkinson · · Score: 1

      Jonathan Livingston Seagull was fiction. You know that, right? :)

      --
      In Nature, stupidity is a capital offense. In human society, too many get off with less than a warning.
    61. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by Antisyzygy · · Score: 1

      .... 127 years must be converted to metric?

      --
      That brings me to an interesting point, / . is just "the ramblings of socially-inept, technology-literate news-mongers".
    62. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by DJRumpy · · Score: 1

      You do realize that they are already creating antimatter today right?

      They started creating almost two decades ago, although it's prohibitively expensive as all new technology is in it's infancy. It's only a matter of time before they can create it in bulk at a reasonable cost.

      The technology to create antimatter, although new, is already advancing.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antimatter#Artificial_production

    63. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you're basing a 4 million year trip on current propulsion technology? Seems pretty archaic to me. I certainly hope that in 4 million years enough new ideas would come out that our ideas of propulsion would be long obsolete.

      When I travel to distant systems, I plan on using some super cool technology that I will call Magnetic Focusing Expansion of Relative Space (MFERS for short). The idea is that we just generate a magnetic attraction between two distant points and turn the thing on. It should also have the benefit of shielding the craft from any inconvenient chunks of matter between A and B. Also, this is science. Science that I base entirely on facts that are not factual (yet). Propulsion is for cavemen. Think of this more like Propullsion.

      How do you propose to get new technology to someone already speeding through space and install it? Seems much more likely that we would just send more trips later on that would pass them partway there and the original ship would still take 4 million years.

    64. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by darien.train · · Score: 1

      Yes but with proxies you could be in many places at once without the hassle of space travel...which I think will remain a hassle to some degree for a millennium to come. Primitive robot proxies seem like 50-70 years away. It's short term but if I squint really hard I can see myself alive to at least drive a virtual robot across the moon.

      --
      I don't know how many years on this Earth I got left. I'm going to get real weird with it. - Frank Reynolds
    65. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This creates a paradox. Imagine in your A and B scenario that B is stationary and A flies to B faster than the speed of light using some as of yet undetermined method. When A arrives, he/she quickly pulls out a telescope or some such device, turns around, and watches her own arrival. How can she already be there if she is just arriving?

      This doesn't create a paradox. This creates the Picard Maneuver.

    66. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by Antisyzygy · · Score: 1
      I am aware that they are creating antihydrogen and antihelium today, but its prohibitively expensive. It would require massive funding to find an efficient way to manufacture and store, which simply wont happen in the US with the way the US government runs. I don't see our government changing either because all of us US citizens failed at maintaining a government for the people and instead let it be taken over by a bunch of self serving rich people who would rather exploit what they can on this planet. I don't believe the EU or Japan are any closer than the US is either. Japan is probably going to enter a extreme debt crisis, and judging by the current president of the EU council I doubt their corruption is much less than ours.

      Assuming an optimal conversion of antiprotons to antihydrogen, it would take two billion years to produce 1 gram or 1 mole of antihydrogen (approximately 6.02×1023 atoms of antihydrogen). Another limiting factor to antimatter production is storage as there is no known way to effectively store antihydrogen.

      --
      That brings me to an interesting point, / . is just "the ramblings of socially-inept, technology-literate news-mongers".
    67. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Stealing? That line was begging to be used here. Really. That's the whole reason I loaded up the comments, and some bastard beat me to it.

    68. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by nacturation · · Score: 3, Funny

      As far as i remember, homo sapiens is about 200.000 years old.

      Wow, that's a damn good memory you have. What was it like back then?

      --
      Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
    69. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by Stoutlimb · · Score: 1

      Look up atomic rockets... there is a process... nobody has the guts. LOL

    70. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To understand this, you really need to think in terms of frames of reference. (See wikipedia.) Say that we have two events, X and Y. Events are points in spacetime - for example, the exact place and time where I brushed my teeth this morning. Say that these two events occurred at the same time, from our point of view. Now imagine that we look at them from the point of view of a spaceship traveling past at 0.9c (ie, with a different frame of reference). Depending on the direction we're traveling, we may see event X happen before event Y - even after we've compensated for the time it took for light from those events to reach us. If we were traveling in the opposite direction, we would see event Y happen befor event X.

      Now, let's look at another pair of events, P and Q. In this case, though, we'll say that event P caused event Q - say, event P was me brushing my teeth, and event Q was my minty-fresh breath wafting along the corridor at work. In our frame of reference, event P happened before event Q. If we look at the two events from a frame of reference that's moving at greater than c compared to us, though, it works out that we could see event Q happening before event P. Since P caused Q, this is impossible - but the only way to prevent it is to disallow any frame of reference that's moving at greater than the speed of light.

    71. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by sFurbo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You need to take into account relativity and its effect on the passing of time. "At the same time" is not well-defined. If two events A and B are outside of each others light cones, there is an observer* who will observe A happening before B, and another observer*, who will observe B happening before A.

      So, if you can affect something which is outside of your light cone, e.g. travel faster than light, some observers will observe you affecting something happening before you acted to affect them.

      *To be more exact, there is an inertial frame of reference, such that an observer in this frame of reference will observe...

    72. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by TheTurtlesMoves · · Score: 1

      Quantum entanglement-based teleportation *must* have a classic channel and does not give you faster than light communication, *and* destroys the quantum state of the "object" getting teleported.

      Or are you being funny?

      --
      The Grey Goo disaster happened 3 billion years ago. This rock is covered in self replicating machines!
    73. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      You know, strong enough gravitational waves will also make your eardrum (and the membrane of a microphone) vibrate, and therefore cause the perception of sound. And unlike sound waves, gravitational waves can travel through vacuum. I'm sure that warp technology produces an awful lot of those gravitational waves.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    74. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      Quantum entanglement-based teleportation will enable us to create robots, teleport them to far away lands, and then said robot will teleport back the video, sensor data, etc instantly as if it were a computer sitting on the floor next to you.

      Whatever hypothetical future technology would enable us to instantly teleport information would certainly not be based on quantum entanglement. The only thing which quantum entanglement would provide is that if we already had instantaneous classical communication through other means (and classical communication is actually all you need to send video and sensor data), then we could use that technology to also make quantum communication instantly, even if that instant-communication technology by itself doesn't preserve quantum information.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    75. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by AbRASiON · · Score: 1

      There's a lot of pulling going on here pal but I'm not sure it's the kind you're talking about, know what I'm saying?

    76. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by Cold+hard+reality · · Score: 1

      For internal atomic motors, there is also weight.

      As for the "lets drop atomic bombs out of the exhaust" motor, this is going way too far.

    77. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by Warbothong · · Score: 2, Informative

      Wait a second here, this sounds familiar.

      When A arrives, he/she quickly pulls out a telescope or some such device, turns around, and watches her own arrival. How can she already be there if she is just arriving?

      When the speed of sound is broken by a jet, they could actually fly for quite a while, stop, turn around, and then hear the sound of them arriving. Why should light be any different? I don't understand why light and time are seen together. I think it should be something more akin to a sort of faster version of sound..except it's light.

      Indeed, the example given was flawed in the way you describe: the light != the event, therefore no paradox. However, there are various ways to arrive at the conclusion of no faster than light travel:

      1) Light travels at the same speed through a vacuum no matter how the observer is moving. This was a well tested experimental result before Einstein explained it theoretically. The light coming out of a car's headlights at 60mph is not going at the speed of light + 60mph, it's going at the same speed as that from a stationary car. This can be explained by modifying Galileo's relativity slightly, so rather than simply adding the velocities there is a slight change applied called a Lorentz transform. This explains how all observers can measure the same speed, and it's physical interpretation is that space contracts and time extends. This effect becomes more and more important as speed increases, until a certain speed at which time is infinitely extended (ie. 'time stops'). This is the 'speed limit' of the Universe, since 'going faster' makes no sense (how can time be stretched longer than infinity?). It also just-so-happens to be the speed at which light travels, so the problem isn't 'beating light', it's that space and time dictate no such thing as faster than this speed, thus even light is stuck, like us, to never go faster.

      2) Discounting air-resistance, it's easier to move things with less mass than those with more mass. Thus light, which has no (rest) mass, is easier to move than anything with mass. Thus light can go faster than any space ship.

      3) The amount of energy bound together into matter is given by E=m*c^2, where m is the rest mass. Thus the total energy for an object is totalE=(m*c^2)+(kinetic energy)+(potential energy). If we want to make an object go faster then its kinetic energy must increase. To do this we can either give it more energy (increasing totalE) or turn some of the other energy into kinetic energy. We can usually turn potential energy into kinetic energy easily (eg. falling via gravity, burning fuel in an engine, etc.), so we can use all of that up and have totalE=(m*c^2)+(kinetic energy)+0. The only other energy we can change to kinetic is the rest mass, which we can do via nuclear reactions or, if we want to convert it all, via matter-antimatter annihilation. If we do the latter then all of the energy is kinetic and we're going as fast as we possibly can. However, the output of matter-antimatter annihilation is light, so we've just proved that we can't go faster than light again! There's no use adding more energy to the light from outside, since that won't change its speed, only the frequency. Adding energy without doing any annihilating will either require adding light, or else adding some massive particles which will actually slow us down by increasing the rest mass.

      4) From a fundamental perspective, we can build up a theory of the Universe without needing space or time. We start by saying that there are 'events', and then we relate those to each other using partial orders by saying things like 'event A occurs before event B', which seems to imply time. However, what we find is that it's perfectly acceptable to say 'event A occurs before event B, event B occurs before event C and event C occurs before event A' (in the same way that rock > scissors, scissors > paper but paper > rock). We can account for such things by noticing that from each eve

    78. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by Nazlfrag · · Score: 1

      Why? Sure, in the vicinity of earth it would be going too far but once you reach an acceptable distance using conventional means what is wrong with the bomb propulsion idea? I assume we're talking interstellar travel here.

    79. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What the hell are you ranting about?

    80. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      We are seeing the system as it was 127 years ago.

      So if we could just transport ourselves there instantaneously we'd be able to see 127 years into our future. And everyone always says how time travel is impossible!

      I look forward to receiving my Nobel Prize and wiping the smiles of all those so-called scientists who laughed at me with my occasional arithmetical errors and lack of government-approved letters after my name. Ha, they laughed at Newton and Einstein too. Well, maybe not that much, they weren't exactly great gagsters, but you know what I mean.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    81. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by xhawkx · · Score: 1

      Posted perfectly and my thoughts to an almost exact period of think.

    82. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by GooberToo · · Score: 1

      Not to mention our current method of creating anti-anything requires far more energy be put in than we can get out of it.

      Until storage, cost of creation and energy of creation issues are addressed, we won't be having anti-anything as an energy source for a very long time. At least with hydrogen we have storage down - but its nowhere near ready to be an energy source either.

    83. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by darien.train · · Score: 1

      If I was being funny you wouldn't have to ask.

      What is funny is that when speaking of a hypothetical future people can't have fun with it and instead ground it in the now. Kind of takes the fun out of scifi.

      --
      I don't know how many years on this Earth I got left. I'm going to get real weird with it. - Frank Reynolds
    84. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by corbettw · · Score: 1

      So, if you can affect something which is outside of your light cone, e.g. travel faster than light, some observers will observe you affecting something happening before you acted to affect them.

      OK, so star system A is at one point on a grid; star system B is at another and they are 10 light years apart. Star system C is 10 light years from B and 20 from A; D is 10 light years from A and 20 from B. All are on a straight line from each other.

      A ship leaves B going many times the speed of light towards A, arriving there in about a week. An observer on C sees the ship leave and, due to the limitations of light-speed observation, it seems to take B 10 years to reach A (though it looks really really red while it's traveling). Meanwhile, an observer on D sees B's ship arrive before it sees it leave B. Does this cause a paradox?

      No, of course not. Just because you find out the ending of something before you find out the beginning doesn't mean there's a paradox. The people on both A and D will be surprised by the ship's sudden, untracked appearance, but that doesn't mean any rules of causality will have been violated any more than seeing a plane flying overhead before you hear its engines means that going faster than sound violates causality.

      Now, if the ship from B turns around and heads home after a one-week visit, it'll arrive three weeks after it left, carrying the information about its visit (which won't arrive via light for another 10 years). Again, causality isn't violated, as it shouldn't matter the method of information exchange as long as time continues to march along (the one-week transit time encompasses time-dilation effects for the purposes of this scenario, feel free to expound on this part to show me why I'm completely wrong).

      Unless the universe just really really doesn't like spoilers (in which case I would expect both Wikipedia and TV Tropes to magically vanish), it just doesn't make any sense to say you can't go faster than light just because it would let someone know something has happened sooner than they otherwise would've.

      --
      God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
    85. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by elrous0 · · Score: 1

      Wormholes are the science world's equivalent of "Maybe Merlin can conjure up a Griffon to fly us there!"

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    86. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by sFurbo · · Score: 1

      In order to see the broken causality, you need to take into account an observer moving at a differente velocity. If the events you describe, consider an observer moving from C towards B at 0.99c. In that frame of reference, the superluminal ship will arrive before it leaves. Not "he will see it that way", the time at which the ship arrives is before the time it leaves, for him. It is equivalent to the pole-barn paradox

    87. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by elrous0 · · Score: 1

      I used "almost unimaginable" as in "extremely difficult for the average human to appreciate." The vast majority of the populace thinks of interstellar space as a relatively easily transversible space (thanks to scifi and movies), as something that will almost inevitably be conquered by man in the same way that we sent a man to the moon. They have no idea the incredible difference in scale between a trip to the moon and a trip to another solar system.

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    88. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by elrous0 · · Score: 1

      They might also have been smart enough to have figured out that traveling such distances to so little end was a ridiculous waste of resources, and instead put their brilliance and limited resources into making their original planet more survivable and durable.

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    89. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by elrous0 · · Score: 1

      Actually, it would be over 250 years for a reply (127 to get there, 127 for the reply). This system hasn't even received a single radio signal from Earth yet (127 years ago we didn't have radio). And by the time we got a reply, we might not even be using conventional radio signaling anymore (assuming we got incredibly lucky enough to catch them in just the right period where they were).

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    90. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by wurble · · Score: 1

      Depending on where you launch from, even conventional fission explosives wouldn't be too bad.

      The absolute worst estimates had something like 1 or 2 people getting cancer for a single launch. I may sound callous, but seeing as how the result would be something capable of transporting thousands of people not just anywhere in the solar system, but even viably on a multi-generational trip of interstellar travel, I think a few lives is a small price to pay.

      We sacrifice far more lives every day for things that are far more petty.

    91. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "As far as i remember, homo sapiens is about 200.000 years old."

      I don't mean to nitpick, but you're off by about 198,800 years.

    92. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by corbettw · · Score: 1

      That makes no sense whatsover.

      Day 1: .99c ship leaves C, 520c ship leaves B for A.
      Day 7: .99c ship still in transit, 520c ship arrives at A.
      Day 14: .99c ship still in transit, 520c ship leaves A.
      Day 21: .99c ship still in transit, 520c ship arrives at B.
      Day 3252: .99c ship gets its first view of 520c ship leaving B.
      Day 3613: .99c ship arrives at B, learns from people of B just how cool A is and how all the really cool ships are going there now.
      Day 3664: .99c ship sees the light reflecting from 520c ship leaving A.

      Again, none of this violates causality. Just because something has already happened doesn't mean you can't learn about it, fresh from your perspective, in the future.

      If you're on the moon talking with someone on the ground, there's a 1.28 second lag in communications due to the distance involved. Something happens on the moon and we won't know of it until 1.28 seconds later. If someone can travel sufficiently faster than light to make the knowledge of that incident essentially simultaneous, it doesn't mean you can find out about it before it happens. It still happens at a particular point in time.

      Even if time slows down as you go faster (which I recall is the case), so far as I know there is zero real-world (eg, not just on a blackboard) evidence that time would go backwards if you went fast enough. Show me evidence of that happening and I'll grant that the non-intuitive aspects of all this could prevent FTL communication/travel. Until then, I stand by my assertion that, just because we don't know how to do something now, doesn't mean we won't ever know.

      --
      God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
    93. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by sFurbo · · Score: 1

      But you can't say "day 1", it makes no sense in relativity. The people on the 0.99c ship will not agree with the people on the planets about what events take place on day 1, and worse, they will disagree to different degrees depending on the position of the events. The link I gave about the pole-barn paradox explains this better than I can, but the main point is that you're regarding time as much more fixed than it is in relativity.

    94. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      That's "science" fiction, not science.

    95. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      They might also have been smart enough to have figured out that traveling such distances to so little end was a ridiculous waste of resources, and instead put their brilliance and limited resources into making their original planet more survivable and durable.

      After which they got smoked by a massive meteor. Which explains why we're not at least getting some signals from them.

    96. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by corbettw · · Score: 1

      Let me say first, thanks for the taking the time to engage in this discussion. I find it fascinating.

      But you can't say "day 1", it makes no sense in relativity.

      And that's where, for me, relativity falls apart. Two events can happen at the same time, regardless of how they appear to happen to observers in different locations. It might appear the event happens earlier to one observer than another, but that doesn't change the fact that, to an omnipotent observer, the events occurred simultaneously.

      Same with your barn-pole paradox. It's only a paradox because the pole appears to be shorter than it is to someone within a given frame of reference. But in reality, it's still the same length it's always been, so when it appears to be completely within the barn it's only due to, in effect, an optical illusion (not really, but the metaphor works better than any other I can think of at the moment).

      Keep in mind, that Lorentz contractions only work when you're parallel to the direction of movement; the observer on top of the barn might see the pole contract at first, but as it got closer that effect would lessen until the pole would resume its original shape and size as it passed underneath the observer.

      --
      God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
    97. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by elrous0 · · Score: 1

      It would have to be a pretty impressive meteor to render the Earth less survivable than any other body in our solar system. We haven't had one like that for billions of years.

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    98. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Costs to create a gram of antimatter is about $25 billion per gram. Although it's expensive, it's not unattainable. Costs will also fall as they refine methods to create it.

      Given how much we've advanced in a mere 100 years (stop and think about where we were 100 years ago, and where we are today), I think you are underselling man's ability to innovate.

    99. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by John+Hasler · · Score: 1

      And by the time we got a reply, we might not even be using conventional radio signaling anymore...

      I don't think it too much of a stretch to assume that, knowing that we sent out a radio signal, we just might keep listening for a radio reply even after we quit using radio ourselves.

      This probably isn't a suitable system to transmit toward, though. Kepler will find better candidates.

      --
      Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
    100. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by sznupi · · Score: 1

      With "virtual" one that's not much of a problem already ;p (but seriously, I really hope the teams working on new lunar rovers now will put their video streams on the web..)

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
    101. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by sFurbo · · Score: 1

      The lack of a universal frame of reference, which makes the idea of an omnipotent observer impossible, is quite the stumbling block regarding relativity. As long as the theory is internally consistent, e.g. two observers agree on whether to things collide, I can accept it, but I can't imagine the effects.

      I suppose the bottom line is that it gives testable predictions, which have panned out so far, so it must be correct, as far as we can tell (and assuming a sane definition of "correct").

    102. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by TheTurtlesMoves · · Score: 1

      For me it puts the fun in. Really, I like hard scifi.

      Speculative future is fine, i just wish they wouldn't do things that basically deny what we already know. If there is faster than light travel/communication then it won't be via quantum teleportation. We know how that works and we have it working in the lab, its not spooky and its not magic.

      --
      The Grey Goo disaster happened 3 billion years ago. This rock is covered in self replicating machines!
    103. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by thasmudyan · · Score: 1

      When A arrives, he/she quickly pulls out a telescope or some such device, turns around, and watches her own arrival. How can she already be there if she is just arriving?

      She is there, why should it be a paradox to see herself? If I make a video of you and show it to you afterwards, is that a paradox?

      When the speed of sound is broken by a jet, they could actually fly for quite a while, stop, turn around, and then hear the sound of them arriving.

      Indeed.

      Why should light be any different?

      It isn't.

      However, the problem here is how to actually arrive somewhere sooner than a photon would. Anything that has mass experiences a time dilation towards (but never reaching) the infinite the more it gets accelerated. Light, on the other hand, has no mass and hence moves with the maximum allowable speed through flat space. The fact that it is light specifically has nothing to do with the speed or any definitions of time. It is simply the speed of all massless particles that can carry information.

      According to current understanding of spacetime, A can still arrive at a location before some light she sent out earlier. To do so, she just has to move through warped space, because there is no speed/time limit on the way space can be warped or accelerated.

    104. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but what's that got to do with the price of eggs?

    105. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by sznupi · · Score: 1
      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
    106. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by sznupi · · Score: 1

      So why the "whoosh" at impulse power?

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
    107. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by sznupi · · Score: 1

      That's nice within our system. Doesn't help with interstellar much (antimatter rocket likewise; though this one at least gives some possibilities - when talking about nearest systems & still not the way people would hope for; but hey, a probe taking just two or three human lifetimes to get there and embryo ship taking just a millenium is at least something workable)

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
    108. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by sznupi · · Score: 1

      Geosync is a bit over 0.1 s away...

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
    109. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by sznupi · · Score: 1

      Of course the candidates of Kepler should be typically in the distances of hundreds and thousands of light years...

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
    110. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by sznupi · · Score: 1

      Don't you feel any terror apart from fascination? ;p

      Omnipotent observers very much don't appear to be part of our world. Heck, "omnipotence" would throw basically whole of (also) relativity out the window, so if insist on looking at it with such an approach...

      The pole doesn't just appear to be shorter, it's not an illusion - it is shorter. It can be, thanks to "simultaneous" losing a bit of its meaning. Also regarding your comment @Lorentz, learn vector addition...

      PS. If you think that relativity gives wrong conclusions, then you also must claim that gold is silver (like pretty much any metal), not yellow - that's a relativistic effect. You also don't believe GPS coordinates - after all, they have corrections because of effects of relativity, and if they are wrong...
      And so on.

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
    111. Re:Don't start planning that vacation just yet by sznupi · · Score: 1

      Your common sense didn't evolve to deal with relativistic effects (or, say, quantum ones). They weren't a factor influencing survival in the environment of your ancestors.

      On the contrary - seeing time, space, causality and simultaneousness in simplified, but locally useful way was such a factor.

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
  3. the richest? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    Quick, tax it!

    1. Re:the richest? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ignore the liberal! Exploit the riches of this new system in the name of humanity! Think of the children, blah blah blah

  4. How funny by WindBourne · · Score: 1

    NASA announces that they have big news on Kepler WRT planets, and now EU decides to quickly make an announcement. Ah, the ability to have the big announcements are always so important.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    1. Re:How funny by sznupi · · Score: 2, Insightful

      How did EU suddenly get involved with European Southern Observatory?...

      (plus generally, healthy competition is nice & there's a lot of crossparticipation in many projects anyway)

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
    2. Re:How funny by sznupi · · Score: 1

      Yeah, if only all of those 14 actually were EU nations...

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
    3. Re:How funny by TheRedDuke · · Score: 1

      Hey, if the US and EU want to keep 1-upping each other, power to 'em. A new Space Race would be welcome change from all the war and debauchery.

    4. Re:How funny by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      How did EU suddenly get involved with European Southern Observatory?.

      You do know that the E in EU stands for European?

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    5. Re:How funny by sznupi · · Score: 1

      You do know that EU != Europe?

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
  5. 7 Planets? Pff... by spike2131 · · Score: 5, Funny

    I know of a solar system that has 8 planets. Used to have 9.

    --
    SpyDock: Scientific Python in a Docker container
    1. Re:7 Planets? Pff... by belthize · · Score: 2, Funny

      I think they're limiting it to real solar systems, Alderaan doesn't count.

    2. Re:7 Planets? Pff... by imakemusic · · Score: 1

      I read of one planet in the seventh dimension got used as a ball in a game of intergalactic bar billiards. Got potted straight into a black hole, killed ten billion people. Only scored thirty points, too.

      --
      Brain surgery - it's not rocket science!
    3. Re:7 Planets? Pff... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, it's a real shame that the Vogon construction fleet had to demolish Earth, but atleast we now have that intergalactic highway.

  6. Pics or it didn't happen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just sayin'.

  7. GTFO by Smelly+Jeffrey · · Score: 3, Insightful

    "the solar system with the most planets yet"

    There is only one Sol. There can only be one System Sol. Anything else is a star system.

    1. Re:GTFO by BobMcD · · Score: 1

      "the solar system with the most planets yet"

      There is only one Sol. There can only be one System Sol. Anything else is a star system.

      Isn't that kind of like saying the only Lindsey is Lohan?

    2. Re:GTFO by Monkeedude1212 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Solar does not mean star. I don't know who taught you that, but they are wrong. Solar means The Sun (and is extrapolated to incorporate everything directly influenced by The Sun). The Sun (Also known as Sol) is the only one known as THE Sun and thus we call it THE Solar system.

      Only rarely does someone innacurately call another star A sun, because its actually a star, and not THE sun. You'll notice they even said in the summary

      The star is HD 10180, located 127 light-years away...

      They didn't say "The sun is HD 10180..."

      So, to review, there is only one The Sun, AKA Sol, and the system of planets around it is known as The Solar System. Everything else is a star, and thus should be a star system. You could say they have discovered a star system, known as the HD 10180 system, which includes 7 planets.

      Jeffrey, regardless of how much he smells, is quite correct in the astrological terminology.

    3. Re:GTFO by Monkeedude1212 · · Score: 1

      It's more like saying the only BobMcD is 601576.

      Any time Sun or Sol (or Solar) is used to reference anything other than the star that Earth orbits is kind of like a misuse of the name, like saying ALL Lindseys are Lohans.

    4. Re:GTFO by BobMcD · · Score: 1

      My point was more along these lines:

      All names are arbitrary.

      We named the sun 'sol' and could thusly name other things that as well. It isn't as if the thing was labeled by God himself before we got around to thinking about it.

    5. Re:GTFO by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      THE Sun and thus we call it THE Solar system.

      Reminds me of the differences between an internet and the Internet...

    6. Re:GTFO by Randle_Revar · · Score: 1

      A solar system is any system around any star, and whatever star you are orbiting is the Sun (at least if you speak English). There is one particular star called Sol, and its solar system is called the Sol system, just like you might say "the Vega system" or "the Polaris system".

    7. Re:GTFO by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When you say THE Sun, which one is you referring to? The star, the newspaper? Or is it the company?
      You can name how many stars you like Sun, and when you say "the Sun" it will be context specific which on you mean just as it is valid to say "the orange" but without context you cannot know if it referrs to the on closest to you, the one closest to me or some other orange.

      Now stop trying to be a smartass on the internet, you only look stupid.... oh wait...

    8. Re:GTFO by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One Solar system, many solar systems. See also: one Moon, many moons.

      Also, don't equate suns and stars. Not all stars are at the centre of a solar system.

    9. Re:GTFO by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, to review, there is only one The Sun, AKA Sol, and the system of planets around it is known as The Solar System. Everything else is a star, and thus should be a star system.

      I prefer 'astral system' or 'stellar system'. You know, to keep it all furrin and sciencey.

    10. Re:GTFO by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fine! We'll call it "Apollo 5223G2"

  8. 3D map? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Does anyone know a site which visualizes all the extra solar planets in something like a cool rotating, zoomable, star trek like map?

    Would really like to start planning my galactic empire now. Or just stare at it in wonder what future generations might discover.

    1. Re:3D map? by darien.train · · Score: 1

      Does anyone know a site which visualizes all the extra solar planets in something like a cool rotating, zoomable, star trek like map?

      MS's WorldWide Telescope is cool too. It also has a Mars map that's fun.

      --
      I don't know how many years on this Earth I got left. I'm going to get real weird with it. - Frank Reynolds
  9. More importantly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...Class M planet, Spock?

    1. Re:More importantly by JustLikeToSay · · Score: 1

      Could be. The RV method can't detect small (ie Earth-size) planets at a distance from a star and simulations by the team showed such the presence of such a planet in the "habitable zone" would be consistent with their results (or at least it wouldn't knacker all their simulations). I welcome our not internally inconsistent overlords.

      --
      I know the truth and I know what you're thinking
  10. HD 10180 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    Is that star HD 10180i, or HD 10180p?

    1. Re:HD 10180 by locopuyo · · Score: 1

      I'm only going if it supports 120hz and 3D.

  11. What's that name again? by Yvan256 · · Score: 1

    Am I the only one who first read that as "The star is HD 1080".

    1. Re:What's that name again? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I read it as HD 10180, but thought "damn. that is a high resolution star."

    2. Re:What's that name again? by buanzo · · Score: 1

      LOL. I just said "hey, did they name it on purpose?" :P

      --
      Buanzo Consulting - 15 Years of GNU/Linux experience, for you.
  12. To put this in some perspective by jd · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It would require a radio telescope with a 1 Km dish (or many with equal collecting area as well as comparable resolving power) to be able to detect an Earth-sized planet 1 AU from its sun at a distance of 100 LY from Earth at a resolution of a single pixel. (Information courtesy of the director of the SETI Institute during an on-site lecture at NASA.) This is 127 LY away and some of the planets are closer to their sun still. The current proposal for the Square Kilometer Array (SKA) telescope has it distributed across continents - boosting the resolving power - but the collecting area might still be too feeble to directly observe a whole lot.

    (The proposal would likely need to be upgraded to a Square Mile Array or larger before you could do much in the way of direct observation. The SKA project has been painfully slow to advance and, frankly, upgrading it to the size necessary to actually look at Earth-sized alien worlds at that kind of distance just isn't going to happen. It's unclear to me if SKA as it stands will ever really happen.)

    --
    It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    1. Re:To put this in some perspective by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The formula for the required resolving power in your example is:

      (required size of telescope) = (wavelength of radio waves) * (100 LY) / (1 AU)

      So for a wavelength of 20 cm (which is about what's planned for the SKA), the telescope needs to be about 1000 km across. Which is fine - like you said, the SKA is going to be distributed across several continents, so it'll be bigger than this. Calculating intensity is a bit harder, though. Radio telescopes aren't a very good choice for looking at planets, because planets don't produce much radio waves - unless they have a radio-happy civilization on them, like Earth, which I guess is why the SETI guys are interested in them. Anyway, intensity isn't an absolute barrier in the same way as resolution is. The longer you observe, the fainter the object you can detect. A Square Kilometre Array could detect whatever a Square Mile Array (with about 2.5 times the collecting area) could, but it would take 2.5^2 = 6 times as long.

    2. Re:To put this in some perspective by jd · · Score: 1

      They don't produce much in the way of radio waves, but an atmosphere will absorb specific radio frequencies according to the composition of the atmosphere and reflect others. So any planet with an atmosphere can be detected by radio telescope. If you can resolve to more than one pixel, you can determine any variations across that atmosphere. Of course, if you're going to do that, you can't use long-baseline interferometry as you'd be averaging any variations out. If you are going to use LBI, then seeing multiple pixels for the planet may give you some additional information from which you can derive conditions there (and this is certainly done), but you won't be able to make direct observations on the weather or on any of the conditions James Lovelock has predicted must hold true for planets with any kind of life. So it all depends on what you're looking for.

      Now, having said that planets do not produce much in the way of radio waves, early books on amateur radio astronomy (by "early" I mean 1960s) tended to dedicate whole chapters to listening to the radio noise from the gas giants in our own solar system. True, it's way too weak a signal to detect at 100 LY distances or indeed at almost any interstellar distance. On the other hand, it is a good introduction to the problems of tracking planets by this method. The damn things just won't sit still.

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
  13. impending Thursday announcement from NASA-Kepler by peter303 · · Score: 2, Informative

    The rumor is they found some rather complex systems with the Kepler space-probe and will announce that on Aug 26. That probe stares at the same 150K patch of stars for years at a time looking for star-dimming indicative of transisting planet. Other phenomena cause dimming, so they examine the light curve carefully and look for periodic orbital repeats to establish planets. There were several hundred dimmings observed the first few months of operation. Probably many times that by now. Some of this dimming data has been released to the public already. Some is reserved for astronomers to double-check with other instruments.

  14. Send a probe now if possible... by johnhp · · Score: 1

    We should send a probe now if possible. We may not live to see the results some 250 years later, but I'm sure that millions of people will thank us when they get their first close-up view of extrasolar planets.

    If faster than light travel is never achieved, we'll eventually have an archeo-space exploration science, where future scientists must track and watch for signals from (then ancient) probes as they reach waypoints and destinations.

    1. Re:Send a probe now if possible... by 32771 · · Score: 1

      On the other hand you could build a gigantic telescope now and be able to spend less or at most equally as much and be able to watch information that is only 125 years old and that without waiting ~10000 years or more for the probe to arrive.

      Anyway, I bet we aren't going to see a Probe mission for a long time. I would rather expect people to travel there and take what they get. This implies that we are actually able to support such a mission with relative ease or that we feel pressured into starting it.

      --
      Je me souviens.
    2. Re:Send a probe now if possible... by Idiomatick · · Score: 1

      Why? There are likely 1000s of such star systems. This is just the first we detected as having 7 planets. I'm certain that as telescope tech improves we'll notices that many stars have a large number of planets.

  15. Master of Orion 2 by DriedClexler · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Does anyone else remember playing Master of Orion, and finding a planet, where the info-box says "Ultra rich, heavy-G".

    I always thought that sounded like a nickname for a gangsta rapper.

    --
    Information theory is life. The rest is just the KL divergence.
    1. Re:Master of Orion 2 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Anonymi require a gift of the DriedClexer Empire: Give us Class X Shield.

    2. Re:Master of Orion 2 by PmanAce · · Score: 1, Interesting

      One of my favorite games of all time. Boy did I ever play the crap out of that game. Even tried playing multi-player with a friend of mine over modem, lets just say it was not that great, his turns would take forever and I would just sit there waiting for him to click done or whatever the button was called.

      --
      Tired of my customary (Score:1)
    3. Re:Master of Orion 2 by rsborg · · Score: 1

      Does anyone else remember playing Master of Orion, and finding a planet, where the info-box says "Ultra rich, heavy-G".

      I sure as hell hope our first colonization effort isn't an introduction to the jaws of a Space Dragon.

      --
      Make sure everyone's vote counts: Verified Voting
    4. Re:Master of Orion 2 by shane+chauhan · · Score: 1

      Does anyone else remember playing Master of Orion, and finding a planet, where the info-box says "Ultra rich, heavy-G".

      I always thought that sounded like a nickname for a gangsta rapper.

      Ah yes...I remember playing that game. Really original at the time. A few friends were really into it

    5. Re:Master of Orion 2 by Antisyzygy · · Score: 1

      I really liked the Star Control series.

      --
      That brings me to an interesting point, / . is just "the ramblings of socially-inept, technology-literate news-mongers".
  16. Not interested by Locke2005 · · Score: 1

    Get back to me when they find a planet with Orion slave girls on it...

    --
    I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
  17. case by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Perhaps there is only one "Solar system," but there are plenty of other "solar systems."

    Can you spot the difference?

  18. I know am no space nerd, but... by Nrrqshrr · · Score: 0

    I guess that this is because of all the games I played and the movies I watched... But I find it a bit surprising that there is such an uproar because they found a system with 7 planets. Shun me not, but, I personally thought that a system with 9 planets would be common. :/ But yeah, Iguess it's just my mediatic up-bringing...

  19. Snow white and the seven dwafs? by Mathness · · Score: 1

    I bet the lawyers at Disney went into full battle mode when they heard the news of a bright white celestial object orbited by seven smaller ones.

    --
    Carbon based humanoid in training.
  20. Intelligent life? by KnightBlade · · Score: 1

    Wake me up when we find intelligent life. No, seriously, I'm not being sarcastic. I really really really want to see/meet alien life. I'm sick of the retarded humans. Domestic violence against one = jail, International violence (war) against millions = medals.

    1. Re:Intelligent life? by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      Yes, I've heard the aliens are much more logical: There every sort of violence against others can earn you a medal.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
  21. Using Trekkie Naming Convention... by PmanAce · · Score: 0

    I wonder which planet of the seven is most like our own m-class planet type? Will it be: HD 10180 I, HD 10180 II, HD 10180 III, HD 10180 IV, HD 10180 V, HD 10180 VI or HD 10180 VII?

    * runs off to see Star Trek *

    --
    Tired of my customary (Score:1)
    1. Re:Using Trekkie Naming Convention... by Kvasio · · Score: 1

      I wonder which planet of the seven is most like our own m-class planet type? Will it be: HD 10180 I, HD 10180 II, HD 10180 III, HD 10180 IV, HD 10180 V, HD 10180 VI or HD 10180 VII?

      * runs off to see Star Trek *

      You watch Star Trek on your HD 1080P telly?

  22. "...the Solar System's eight planets..." by John+Hasler · · Score: 2, Funny

    Nine.

    --
    Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
    1. Re:"...the Solar System's eight planets..." by Bemopolis · · Score: 1

      If you're going to bump it up to nine, you may as well bump it up to twelve to include Eris, Makemake, and Haumea. Or thirteen, if you hold a favorable opinion of Ceres.

      --
      "I guess the moral of the story is, don't paint your airship with rocket fuel." -- Addison Bain
    2. Re:"...the Solar System's eight planets..." by John+Hasler · · Score: 1

      It's a planet if it is on the list of the nine planets. Pluto is. Eris isn't. Either that or we go back to the original five.

      --
      Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
    3. Re:"...the Solar System's eight planets..." by Xtifr · · Score: 1

      What if I hold a favorable opinion of Ceres but not Pluto or other Kuiper belt objects? Then it's nine, just like the man said. :)

      (And yes, before you ask, yes I do consider that to be a more sensible categorization scheme than the one the IAU actually adopted,)

    4. Re:"...the Solar System's eight planets..." by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      IOW, 'there are nine planets because tradition says so'.

    5. Re:"...the Solar System's eight planets..." by T.E.D. · · Score: 1

      You want Eris? You must, since it is the next largest object. If you wanted Pluto in, you'd have to make it ten.

    6. Re:"...the Solar System's eight planets..." by DriedClexler · · Score: 1

      Nein.

      --
      Information theory is life. The rest is just the KL divergence.
  23. Richest solar system? by rossdee · · Score: 1

    Did they find Arrakis (Gune) ?

    But seriously, the richest solar system would be one that contains a habitable planet. Gas Giants are 10 a penny...

    1. Re:Richest solar system? by mjwx · · Score: 1

      Did they find Arrakis (Gune) ?

      Did Richard Stallman re-write a Frank Herbert novel?

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
  24. People will be born & will die in one system by sznupi · · Score: 1

    I suspect most humans, at any given time, will be far too old for organized interstellar journeys, the way we might probably do it (imho) - those young enough will be composed of dozen or so cells, cryogenically frozen. Or even not really existing yet, travelling in the form of egg & sperm bank on a quite small, light & fast spaceship (which would still be an enormous strain to build & launch, but at least plausible; plausible enough also to do it every few decades, maximizing chances of success) with advanced autonomous systems to kickstart the colony (ok, plus maybe some very small human team in hibernation - doesn't change things much)

    Embryo colonisation seems to be the most plausible approach with technology that's almost certainly within our grasp, certainly possible within our Universe.

    Alternatively, after getting the hang of asteroid mining and colonisation, we should eventually, after who knows how many millenia, spread out into Oort cloud of Solar System. Over time, ever further from the Sun. At some point, Oort clouds of neighbouring stars can be said to basically intersect, in a way. So some of our descendants will make the jump. But that's even further from the scifi idea of interstellar travel...
    Though it would mirror the way we took over the Earth.

    --
    One that hath name thou can not otter
  25. hyperboling much? by luis_a_espinal · · Score: 2, Insightful

    We only have one more in our own, and we're killing the earth,

    What the hell does this has to do with what is being discussed?

    our planet don't even contain half of the ressources it took billions of year to produce.

    Source or citation for this please? And whoever voted this post as insightful, please go back to school and learn some analytical thinking (or to middle school if you have to.)

  26. Maybe Maybe not by pugugly · · Score: 1

    Without the ability to determine definitively whether they have 'cleared the neighbourhood of its orbit' can we really prove that we've discovered *any* extrasolar planets?

    And yes, I know that the IAU says that is the definition of a planet in our Solar system, but as even the most basic student of science philosophy knows science assumes that definitions are not variable across time and space. So really we just don't know.

    FU Tyson - {G}. If Pluto can't be a planet I'm not recognizing any of these others till you have definitive quatification of the ephemerides for all of them.

    Pug

    --
    An Invisible Entity of Vast Power whose existence must be taken on faith alone: Liberal Media
    1. Re:Maybe Maybe not by mjwx · · Score: 1

      FU Tyson - {G}. If Pluto can't be a planet I'm not recognizing any of these others till you have definitive quatification of the ephemerides for all of them.

      So what are we living on, an Earthoid?

      You know what, I'm renaming every planet to Hammer just to spite you.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    2. Re:Maybe Maybe not by pugugly · · Score: 1

      Stop

      Hammertime.

      --
      An Invisible Entity of Vast Power whose existence must be taken on faith alone: Liberal Media
  27. Other Star Systems; Not Solar Systems by TimSSG · · Score: 1

    There IS ONLY ONE Solar System in this reality. The others star systems do NOT have our Sun, Sol, as the star! Tim S.

    1. Re:Other Star Systems; Not Solar Systems by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      They don't have our sun, but they have their sun.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    2. Re:Other Star Systems; Not Solar Systems by TimSSG · · Score: 1

      eldavojohn writes "The European Southern Observatory has announced that with the aid of their 190 HARPS measurements they have found the solar system with the most planets yet.

      Please correct the submitters nonsense. Tim S.

  28. Don't you wish warp drive was real? by master_p · · Score: 1

    It is these kinds of announcements that make me wish warp drive was real. Space is so interesting!

    1. Re:Don't you wish warp drive was real? by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      Actually I think a teleportation device for interstellar distances would be more useful. No need to hang around in the boring interstellar space.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    2. Re:Don't you wish warp drive was real? by arndawg · · Score: 1

      BORING interstellar space? You're on notice that all of your cards, no matter what their basic function, are being confiscated. Blasphemy will not be tolerated on the Enterprise.

    3. Re:Don't you wish warp drive was real? by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      They seldom show interstellar space in the series. They most often show the interior of the space ship (and all the social interaction there could generally as well happen if they were orbiting a star), and the only interesting things outside the ship are usually when they encounter another planet (-> not interstellar space), or when they encounter another space ship or several of them (while that may happen in interstellar space, it's would not be any less interesting close to a star).

      The Enterprise is actually proof that interstellar space is boring: Do you think they had made the huge effort to build a holodeck into the ship to entertain the people on it, if that would not have been needed to bear those long, boring interstellar travels? Of course they don't show the boring parts of the travel in the series. They also don't show that people shit. I don't think future people will be able to avoid shitting.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.