TSA Saw My Junk, Missed Razor Blades, Says Adam Savage

An anonymous reader writes "The TSA isn't the most respected of governmental agencies right now, but at least it comes by the poor reputation honestly. The lack of standards, inconsistent application of searches and policies, and occasional rude agent all combine to make flying an unpleasant experience. It's often derided as 'security theater,' which describes the experience of Mythbuster Adam Savage before a recent flight. Savage was put through the full-body scanner, and while he joked that it made his penis feel small, no one seemed to notice the items he was carrying on his person. The video tells the rest of the story."

Comments

TSA Security Theater

[illumastorm]

Next, on TSA Security Theater we have the story of the man who manages to bring 12 inch razor blades through security checks. Coming up... Savage Blades.

Re:TSA Security Theater

[Dayze!Confused]

I flew on an international flight and transfered in LA to go to PDX. When I got home, I opened up my carry on bag and found a box cutter sitting in the front pouch. So much for security.

Re:TSA Security Theater

[Lucky75]

Yep, same happened to me. I had my leatherman in my backpack by accident. It's the one with several different long, sharp knives.

Re:TSA Security Theater

[LynnwoodRooster]

Even better, I just got back from Shanghai. I got bumped to business class from Tokyo to PDX, and dinner was sirloin steak. Complete with steak knife with a 5" serrated blade, a 9" total length metal butter knife, and a full-size metal dinner fork. Just given to me for sitting in the front section.

.
Who needs to smuggle on your own knife; buy a first class or business class ticket and get a nice, sharp, big knife given to you!

Re:TSA Security Theater

[flyingkillerrobots]

El-Al (Israel) gives knives to everyone, not just first class. They've been making fun of the other airlines about it for years. If everybody has knives, then a terrorist with a knife is no more dangerous than he'd be on the ground, assuming the knife cannot be used to somehow quickly down the plane.

Re:TSA Security Theater

[MoonBuggy]

You don't even need to be up at the front - as I've said many times, until they stop allowing glass on planes (and even the lowly economy customers are trusted with that) I won't believe for a second that they're particularly concerned about blades.

Not that I'm saying they should be concerned about blades; the threat from terrorism of any kind (in the US, at least) is minimal, and any hijacker nowadays would be taken out by 150 pissed off passengers before they could get anywhere near commandeering the aircraft anyway.

What I object to is the classic security theatre, pretending there's a threat and then pretending to fix it. At least if they were honest and actually did prevent any possible attack vector, it would be so onerous that it might finally provoke some kind of sizeable backlash against the whole pointless process.

Re:TSA Security Theater

[InlawBiker]

You don't really need a weapon at all. Just turn on any electrical device that gives off an RF signal while the plane ascends. Then watch that fucker go up in a firey fireball of death!

Re:TSA Security Theater

[mellon]

This assumes that the cabin crew counts the knives when collecting the refuse. Otherwise, the terrorist can just palm it and wait for everyone else to be disarmed.

Re:TSA Security Theater

[quenda]

That's nothing. They let me take a glass bottle of duty-free whisky onto the plane. One swing and that jagged glass is a lot scarier than your silly box-cutter or leatherman.

I asked one of the goons about this seeming paradox, and she said "If I had my way, you wouldn't be able to take that either.". I was tempted to ask her about all the terrorist glassing attacks, but I kinda wanted to get on the flight.

Re:TSA Security Theater

[PolygamousRanchKid]

Who needs to smuggle on your own knife; buy a first class or business class ticket and get a nice, sharp, big knife given to you!

That airline steak was probably the most dangerous item on the plane. The last time I had steak on a plane, I though t it had a higher density that depleted Uranium. Great for anti-tank munition. Whack someone on the head with that, and they would have gone to meet his or her maker.

a 9" total length metal butter knife,

Brilliant! So, you hold up the butter knife to the Land of Lakes chick on the butter package, and scream, "Nobody moves! Or the Native American gets it!"

"Um, does anyone know how to do that trick, where the chick looks like she is dropping her tits out?"

Re:TSA Security Theater

[camperdave]

ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.

Whenever I see your sig I want to change it to:
ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented using a web camera.

Re:TSA Security Theater

[ThunderBird89]

Actually, Adam's friends tested this: the signals, especially the 900MHz band, did interfere with unshielded electronics, but modern planes are mostly shielded. Thus, this limitation is being lifted in Europe.

Re:TSA Security Theater

[niftydude]

Not just duty free - but the economic well being of all airport stores.
I once had a pair of tweezers confiscated from me for a domestic flight.
Passed through security, walked into the airport newsagency, and was able to buy a new pair within 5 minutes.

Re:TSA Security Theater

[wilkinc]

The last time I had steak on a plane

I think you mean 'motherfuckin' steaks on a motherfuckin' plane'

Re:TSA Security Theater

[AGMW]

Of course Israel had quite a lot of trouble back in the days when hijacking meant "fly this plane to Beirut!" where ransom demands were made and their response was to publicly claim that all Israeli people were considered "troops" in such situations and at the earliest opportunity the Israeli special forces would storm the plane. This happened once or twice and the hijackers realised they would never succeed. I'm sure some Israeli people were harmed in those stormed planes but the number saved subsequently made it "worth it" for the society, if not the individuals.

The same is true for current kidnappings and piracy (Somali pirates, etc). If the World could decide that paying off such people was now illegal and special forces would be deployed in all instances there would be some casualties but ultimately it would stop them doing it!
I would also suggest helping the poor nations could also assist in making piracy a less attractive career prospect.

Re:TSA Security Theater

[AGMW]

Not just duty free - but the economic well being of all airport stores. I once had a pair of tweezers confiscated from me for a domestic flight. Passed through security, walked into the airport newsagency, and was able to buy a new pair within 5 minutes.

A mate was flying back (to the UK) from Ireland (the Republic of) and had to buy those stupid plastic bags to put toiletries in. 1 euro for two. He said he only needed one, but the 'guard' insisted he had to buy two! The guy in front said he only needed one of the two he'd just bought and my mate could have the other one, but the guard said NO! He had to buy his own bags!

Re:TSA Security Theater

[mcvos]

That's nothing. They let me take a glass bottle of duty-free whisky onto the plane. One swing and that jagged glass is a lot scarier than your silly box-cutter or leatherman.

I asked one of the goons about this seeming paradox, and she said "If I had my way, you wouldn't be able to take that either.". I was tempted to ask her about all the terrorist glassing attacks, but I kinda wanted to get on the flight.

Of course you have to be able to take bottles of alcohol on the plane. People make a lot of money selling those!

I'm not just joking either. I'm convinced that security takes a backseat to profit. Harsh, inconvenient, invasive, even ineffective security is perfectly acceptable, as long as it doesn't cut into the profits of commercial interests.

Re:TSA Security Theater

[Vectormatic]

i have an interesting story on those water bottles, back in 2007 i went to India, flying from Schiphol (Amsterdam airport, the netherlands). On the first flight i was not allowed any liquids over a certain capacity, the whole "liquid bomb" spiel. On my flight back, after passing through all security checks, it occured to me i still had a 1 litre bottle of water in my backpack. To make sure i asked the (dutch, was flying with KLM) stewardess about it, as i expected not to be allowed to take it with me, and that those indian security guys must have made a mistake.

As it turns out, while it is not allowed to blow up a plane flying from amsterdam to new dehli with your fancy liquid bomb, they have no problem what so ever with you smuggling the same liquid explosive device on board the same aircraft (with presumably the same sort of people on board) traveling in the opposite direction

Re:TSA Security Theater

[nospam007]

The scanner only detects (sharp) edges.
Adam had his blades in a round container, you can put anything in round non-metallic containers and the scanner won't see it.

Re:TSA Security Theater

[The Bender]

Funny. I count 88 ElAl flights today either arriving at or departing from Ben Gurion Airport. http://www.iaa.gov.il/Rashat/en-US/Airports/BenGurion/InformationforTravelers/OnlineFlights.htm

Re:TSA Security Theater

[GameboyRMH]

And yet nobody is killed! How interesting!

Seriously though, I would support giving every adult on a plane a box cutter as a security measure when boarding the aircraft. They don't even need to hand them back in, there can be a bin for you to drop them in as you leave the aircraft, but if you don't, so what? If anyone tries hijacking an aircraft, or blowing one up in an action that requires more than a second of suspicious activity, they'll look like a casualty of an anime action scene in under 3 seconds.

Aircraft terrorism: solved.

Re:TSA Security Theater

[thoromyr]

It was before the current security craze (so long ago that when you went to pick someone up you could actually meet them at the gate), but I went through airport security wearing a long leather coat and tripped the metal detector. They were nice about it, ran the coat through the carry on/x-ray and had me walk through it again. I tripped it a few more times as each time I would remember another metal article to remove. They ended up using a wand on me and I was cleared to go.

When I left with the person I was picking up I happened to put my hand in the coat pocket and nearly froze. Stuffed in the pocket was one of my pistols -- not a real firearm, but a metal barrel and working metal action replica. I can't believe the metal barrel, trigger assembly, hammer, etc. wouldn't have showed on the x-ray and not *looked* like a working firearm -- they must not have been looking. Why bother putting the coat through if they weren't even going to look?

Security at airports has always been piss poor and the current theatre hasn't improved it one bit.

Anthropomorphalicism

[cosm]

and while he joked that it made his penis feel small

But how did it make him feel? Stop anthropomorphizing penises, they hate it when you do that!

Re:Anthropomorphalicism

[fishexe]

Modded off-topic? Bizarre. Grammar jokes are the heart and soul of Slashdot.

No, posters that think they're being clever while confusing grammar with semantics are the heart and soul of Slashdot.

The "enhanced" procedures are useless

[KublaiKhan]

The only measure which has successfully prevented a terrorist attack since the '01 hijackings is the increased vigilance and response of the flying public.

The TSA's measures are worse than useless: they actually create a hazard, with long, slow-moving, densely-packed lines full of by-definition unscreened persons--lines that are about the ripest target for a bomb that you can find.

Go back to pre-'01 screening procedures, and empower passengers with good-samaritan style legislation that exempts persons from prosecution for acts they genuinely believe to be in prevention of a terrorist incident.

Re:The "enhanced" procedures are useless

[Anonymous Coward]

The only measure which has successfully prevented a terrorist attack since the '01 hijackings is the increased vigilance and response of the flying public.

The TSA's measures are worse than useless: they actually create a hazard, with long, slow-moving, densely-packed lines full of by-definition unscreened persons--lines that are about the ripest target for a bomb that you can find.

You there, stop making sense. TSA policy isn't governed by common sense. TSA policy is governed by rules, and if you don't like the rules, you're free not to fly. Take it directly from the bastard who designed it. (No, not Chertoff. He's just in it for a quick buck.) I mean the other bastard, the one who said...

"I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The US Government will lead the American people - and the West in general - into an unbearable hell and a choking life." - The TSA Security Policy Architect, as interviewed on CNN in November 2001.

He's not giving interviews on CNN anymore, just little photos and audio tapes. Here's a snippet from his 2010 interview.

Re:The "enhanced" procedures are useless

[damburger]

Oh, they are far from useless.

They make an unreasonable request, you comply without thinking. They bark orders at you, you avoid eye contact and meekly take it. They are training you.

Re:The "enhanced" procedures are useless

[maxume]

The upgraded cockpit doors have also probably had some deterrent effect (it's now a whole lot harder to make the plane do something the pilots don't agree with, so less interesting to try).

And you better write your law really carefully (even without a law, people that feel strongly that something needs to be done can simply take responsibility for their actions).

Re:The "enhanced" procedures are useless

[Black Parrot]

The TSA's measures are worse than useless: they actually create a hazard, with long, slow-moving, densely-packed lines full of by-definition unscreened persons--lines that are about the ripest target for a bomb that you can find.

I've been thinking about that for years, but never said anything because I didn't want to give anyone any ideas.

Go back to pre-'01 screening procedures, and empower passengers with good-samaritan style legislation that exempts persons from prosecution for acts they genuinely believe to be in prevention of a terrorist incident.

Post-911, an attempting hijacker wouldn't live a minute if the rest of us were carrying pointy things.

Might not anyway, unless the TSA starts confiscating pencils and umbrellas. Almost anything will serve as a weapon in a pinch.

Re:The "enhanced" procedures are useless

[jcr]

The only measure which has successfully prevented a terrorist attack since the '01 hijackings is the increased vigilance and response of the flying public.

Exactly. The perps have given up on attempting to hijack aircraft, the last two attacks (shoe bomber and underpants bomber) only tried to destroy the plane. The cockpit doors have been reinforced.

I'm convinced that the whole purpose of the TSA is one big Milgram experiment to find out just how far we can be pushed before we resist. I'm rather disappointed that it got this far.

-jcr

Re:The "enhanced" procedures are useless

[KublaiKhan]

<p>I've been thinking about that for years, but never said anything because I didn't want to give anyone any ideas.</p>
</quote>

I've been -saying- that for years and it still hasn't happened. I figured that if I saw the possibility within five minutes of seeing the line, anyone else would be able to see it without too much trouble. I've been suspecting that either the so-called 'threat' is far, far overblown or these terrorists are complete and total idiots.

Another of the obvious plots: shoot up (or toss bombs, or suicide-bomb, or carbomb, or...well, you get the point) a Black Friday opening line or three on the east coast at a big box store.

Suddenly, everyone stays home rather than shopping; the economy is ruined for at least the last quarter. Much easier than trying to hijack a plane.

Re:The "enhanced" procedures are useless

[Kazymyr]

Mod parent up.

Very true. The lines at the entrance to security checkpoints must be a terrorist's dream. A suicide bomber could rake up hundreds of casualties there.

Re:The "enhanced" procedures are useless

[MoonBuggy]

And yet they haven't done so, which is further evidence that either the pool of competent potential terrorists is vanishingly small or the intelligence agencies are doing their jobs well and preventing plots from getting off the ground (so to speak). In either case, it would appear that the TSA are unnecessary.

Re:The "enhanced" procedures are useless

[OrangeTide]

straitjackets for all passengers.

Re:The "enhanced" procedures are useless

[Atriqus]

Another of the obvious plots: shoot up (or toss bombs, or suicide-bomb, or carbomb, or...well, you get the point) a Black Friday opening line or three on the east coast at a big box store.

That's not effective terrorism. No one will know if it was a terrorist attack or someone just wanted to thin the line to get to the linens department before the good stuff was picked over.

Re:The "enhanced" procedures are useless

[Al Dimond]

I have a feeling bombing a store on Black Friday wouldn't stop people from shopping. At the Wal-Mart in suburban New York where the doors were literally "busted" and people trampled to death (this was Black Friday 2008 IIRC) the shoppers just kept shopping. The police tried to clear the store for an investigation and were unable to do it. Not one of humanity's brighter moments.

Point being, if one of those crowds was bombed it probably wouldn't even stop people from shopping at that store. Enterprising family members of the dead would be out in the parking lot auctioning off their newly-unneeded vehicles. Black Friday is a scourge more evil, and more powerful, than terrorism.

Re:The "enhanced" procedures are useless

[PitaBred]

The TSA's measures are worse than useless: they actually create a hazard, with long, slow-moving, densely-packed lines full of by-definition unscreened persons--lines that are about the ripest target for a bomb that you can find.

I've been thinking about that for years, but never said anything because I didn't want to give anyone any ideas.

You think you're that much smarter than someone who is intentionally thinking about how to cause mass destruction?

Re:The "enhanced" procedures are useless

[tempest69]

I wish you weren't right.
But were just being conditioned to behave and accept that the government is in control. Somehow the government gets some undeserved awe. I remember having it, where the government and the laws were something greater, and noble.
Now I see it as a home owners association that has gotten too large and is full of itself. This is a problem, it is putting people through screening that is unnecessary and ineffectual. The right to balk at being screened has been removed. While I understand the rational, I find it to be reprehensible. We are not subjects, we are citizens, and we need to act accordingly. That our liberties are more important than the convenience of the government.

We are trained to behave as if the law is something crafted by masters of philosophy and reason. That the enforcers are going to be in the right and behave with proper restraint. uncorrupted by their authority. That the jurors will weigh that the defendant broke both the letter of law, and will ensure that the the law itself is appropriate. This is clearly not the case, laws are often made for the personal gain of those with access to power. Police misconduct videos are released at a rate that is truly alarming, a couple police ruining the name of the bunch is still the cry I see over and over. However the number of times this has been caught on video leads me to believe that this is something that is seriously undermining their credibility. After cases like Genarlow Wilson, it appears that the jury has been trained to disregard their primary purpose- determining if the defendant committed a crime that warrants the punishment being let out.

I'm getting tired of all the training, it needs to stop

Storm

Re:The "enhanced" procedures are useless

[farnsworth]

<quote> <p>I've been thinking about that for years, but never said anything because I didn't want to give anyone any ideas.</p> </quote> I've been -saying- that for years and it still hasn't happened. I figured that if I saw the possibility within five minutes of seeing the line, anyone else would be able to see it without too much trouble. I've been suspecting that either the so-called 'threat' is far, far overblown or these terrorists are complete and total idiots.

Isn't this what happened at LAX in 2003 or so? It certainly happens in other places around the world. I was at a baseball game in NYC shortly after 9/11 with a friend who has spent time in Isreal, and the lines and crowds outside the security checkpoints at the stadium made him visibly upset.

Re:The "enhanced" procedures are useless

[interkin3tic]

You're saying they won't be able to straightjacket you because of that? They'd say it's not arrest or detainment: you're free to not fly if you object that strongly to a straightjacket, if you're flying you agree to it.

Despite being idiotic, that justification flies with enough people. Same thing with corporations. We'd start throwing molotovs if the president announced privacy was a thing of the past and that their location would be tracked electronically. Facebook does it and people think -I'm- crazy for caring.

Re:The "enhanced" procedures are useless

[element-o.p.]

Do you seriously believe that laws regarding unlawful arrest and detainment without a warrant will slow them down one bit when the 4th Amendment hasn't?

Re:The "enhanced" procedures are useless

[Daniel_Staal]

I try to give examples of things that are more likely than being in a terrorist attack. (The 'security' doesn't tend to change these materially...) Things like being hit by lightning. Twice. Or suffocating in your bedding while you sleep. Or if you want good luck: You'll likely win the lottery a couple of times before you are in a terrorist attack.

There's almost no threat, realistically. Worry about crossing the road. That's more likely to kill you.

Re:The "enhanced" procedures are useless

[MightyMartian]

I agree that 9-11-style attempts (or even the more mundane "take me to Cuba" attempts from days gone by) would probably see a hijacker crushed to mush before they had much of a chance to do anything. However, using luggage and cargo in the cargo holds is still vulnerable (as the latest attempt out of Yemen demonstrated). Mind you, all the penis imaging machines in the world wouldn't stop that sort of an attack. What stops that sort of attack, as the Israelis know from long experience (and a rather extraordinary record) is intelligence work and smart people who know how to recognize suspicious packages and activities. That saved that cargo plane coming out of Yemen, good old fashioned detective and intelligence work, not some espresso-overdosed guy demanding to see your dink on an X-ray, with the threat that he'll have to feel it if you don't go along with the policy.

It's long been pointed out that low-wage security workers is not going to cut the onions, but there seems to be this belief that if we can image penises and breasts, we will all end being so much safer. I listened to an expert on Israeli counter-terrorism who suggests the TSA is wasting incredible amounts of time and money on a technological solution to what is fundamentally a psychological problem.

Re:The "enhanced" procedures are useless

[RightwingNutjob]

The fact is that it's very easy to cause lots and lots of trouble and hurt/kill a lot of people with relatively little sophistication or effort. I'd go into details of some observations I make as a private citizen living and going about my business in a nameless American city, but I really *don't* want to give anyone ideas (or get a visit from men in dark glasses). This leads me to the following contradictions:

Given how easy it is to cause trouble, the biggest thing that saves lives is that most people from the part of the world under discussion who adhere to the religious interpretation of interest are too stupid to learn to fly airplanes. However, the few who aren't too stupid can cause an awful mess, as evidenced by 9/11.

Until we get better at figuring out who those people are in a way that doesn't erode our liberties more than getting body scanned, everyone's gotta be under threat of being searched, though I will emphatically agree that we can probably safely skip the 80-year-old grandmothers with nail clippers.

Re:The "enhanced" procedures are useless

[SatanicPuppy]

Well, it's not like they've tried strapping explosives to themselves and walking into a big crowd of people, so he doesn't want to give them that idea.

Re:The "enhanced" procedures are useless

[mabhatter654]

Just like the Nazis. first they were only sending political criminals, then capitalists, and when the guards were well trained (and up to their eyeballs in murder too) they rounded up the women and children like cattle. It may be Godwins law, but here we stand at the ENTIRE POINT of the matter, scanning all the way to our skin and STILL claiming it's not enough security.

Knowing ALL THAT the bozos in Congress allowed the TSA to be created anyway. Ironically Rush was complaining about the "new" extreme procedures... of course there was no problem when "Democrats" were being hassled. It's hilarious that the right-wingers are all over this like it has anything to do with Obama. They cheered while Cheney/Bush created a whole new Cabinet level position, accountable to essentially nobody with access to the NSA, CIA, and FBI and no strings attached. This is funny that it turns around now.. after all they have to look busy or Obama will scale them back.

Re:The "enhanced" procedures are useless

[wierd_w]

Personally, I feel that this illusionment comes from the indoctrinated sense that being illegal == immoral. That it is NEVER justified to break the law. EG, that it is ALWAYS wrong to steal, or that it is ALWAYS wrong to refuse to 'help' a police officer with an investigation, etc. It is implied that by being so disobedient to the civil infrastructure, that you are an evil anarchist bent on destroying life as we know it, and that you are therefor "evil".

In reality, there ARE times when theft is the correct and appropriate action, or when refusing to assist police is the correct and proper thing to do. [due to risk of enacting Godwin's Law, I will avoid mentioning certain historical events, despite their obvious applicability.]

The reality of the situation is that the civil infrastructure is only useful and good up until a critical threshold, and after that it becomes officious and destructive to the quality of life of the civilians it is supposed to be servicing. Examples are things like the difference between a home owner's association, and a simple lawncare ordinance. The former is officious, the latter is to maintain property values of your neighbors.

Others would be things like enforcing sobriety while operating dangerous equipment (Including vehicles), VS enforcing "The war on drugs(tm)".

The subtle lie that the government\civil infrastructure is ALWAYS good is what allows the civil infrastructure to cross that critical threshold. It is motived to do so, because it is run by humans, and humans LIKE to enforce their wills upon others. (AKA, being addicted to/attracted to power and authority.)

This is further fascilitated by innate human laziness, and innate human weaknesses. Modern life would be impossible/highly impractical if there were no specialists; Doctors, Dentists, Lawyers, Politicians, Automotive mechanics, IT professionals, etc. This is imply because there are fundemental limits to what individual humans are capable of accomplishing themselves. The civil infrastructure provides the basic framework upon which specialists can employ their trades, and by which their customers can make reliable use of their services. In this respect, the social infrastructure of government is indeed absolutely vital to modern human existence, and pretty much everyone except sociopaths accepts this innately at some level. Part of the problem is that "Little people" have been so far abstracted from governance due to the increasing complexities of modern existence, that they realistically cannot engage in politics rationally, because that is becoming/has become a specialist discipline. As such, they are pressured naturally, more and more, to simply trust these specialists, since the natural demans of life make it more and more difficult to effectively engage in it. I strongly suspect that this is at least partially at fault for persons continually voting for an abstracted "Party line", VS actually researching issues, and engaging in government as intended.

Likewise, the specialists (Politicians) have their own agendas, and become more and more abstracted/estranged from other demographics in society, and so the government becomes wierder and wierder, and more and more authoritarian; As the ordinary citizen understands the minutae of modern government less and less, they become less and less willing to capitulate, requiring ever escallating levels of control to ensure the reliable function of government.

I personally consider this to be the euphamistically titled "Big Government" that Libertarians rail against. The government becomes bigger and bigger, as it takes on more and more responsibilities, as the average citizen delegates more and more duties to government, because they themselves become more and more specialized.

Without reducing the complexity of the social infrastructure, the requirements on specialist knowledge, or increasing the free time of the average citizen in some fundemental way so that they can cope with dealing with government appropriately, there is really

Re:The "enhanced" procedures are useless

[Darinbob]

I've often found that rules can turn off common sense. Once you've got a set of rules in place then you've got a flow chart of what to do and don't have to think; if you do think you get cognitive dissonance if the rules are a little bit wrong, so you train yourself not to think...

Re:The "enhanced" procedures are useless

[Martin Blank]

It was 2002. In that case, a lone gunman tried to shoot up the El Al ticket line, killing two and wounding four more, but was himself shot dead by El Al security.

Re:The "enhanced" procedures are useless

[jabberw0k]

Security lines at airports are ripe targets, but bombing one doesn't make for much terror.

Would you stand in a security line, after that happened?

Re:The "enhanced" procedures are useless

[Kral_Blbec]

Ummm, right wingers aren't any more over it than left, and I have never heard any "right-winger" claim that it was obama's fault. In fact, beck has even gone out of his way to expressly state that he doesn't blame obama for it.
The idea behind a TSA isn't bad, its the execution and the continiously expanding sphere of influence that is.

Re:The "enhanced" procedures are useless

[MichaelSmith]

Yeah I saw this working in Malaysia once. The first team inspected carry on luggage. They checked out a bag of toys we had for my son because it was full of little bits of metal. The second (larger) team stood in the gate lounge watching all the passengers. No big deal for the majority who were dealing with their kids or catching up on work. But very hard for anybody with nothing to do except follow a script and hope the Guys with the Eyes hadn't caught on.

Re:The "enhanced" procedures are useless

[Kral_Blbec]

That sounds very logical, and well stated, but the over all gist of it is unfortunately incorrect. Your entire basis is on the claim that the common man is too stupid to understand the complexities of modern society and politics. The truth is rather than they have been told that there is no need to learn it, although they could if they tried. They have also been purposefully lied to and abused by the political leaders so that rather than the average citizen delegating more duty to the government, the government simply assumes control.
I don't believe that society is such much more complex than in the past that peoples brain's are exploding. I still have faith in the potential of the average person to learn a vast amount more than they currently do. Its just a matter of them actively choosing not to and being told that they don't need to. Sports, movies, fashion etc all take up too much of their time that could and should be spent in more constructive pursuits.
Pork barrels and earmarks also aren't the result of amateur politicians messing around with something they don't understand. They are the result of professional politicians knowing that they can get away with it because people have become accustomed to it.

Re:The "enhanced" procedures are useless

[Nefarious Wheel]

I suspect that Al-Queda sends an idiot through the airlines once in a while to get caught, just to keep the TSA's attention focused there. Personally I'd be looking at vulnerable civil infrastructure by now, totally ignoring risks to flight - they're covered. That's not going to happen again, they've used that one up.

But while we're looking at the airports, how safe is our water supply? How disruptive would destroying the civil sewerage system be? Infecting a single beef feedlot? I think it's time to wake up and think about other ways the bastards could get at us.

Re:The "enhanced" procedures are useless

[JohnBailey]

No need to risk being Godwined.

Look up the Milgram experiment. People will do a hell of a lot more than they usually would that is distasteful to them if an authority figure tells them to. You want to see scary.. look in the mirror.

Re:The "enhanced" procedures are useless

[gman003]

Almost anything will serve as a weapon in a pinch.

Including, of course, nothing. It's not terribly difficult to kill someone with your bare hands - some muscular strength is needed to do so quickly, but a few months of training in any real martial art will be enough. With proper training and a bit of luck, an unarmed person can even defeat an armed soldier - there's a whole series of techniques in Krav Maga for disarming someone of various weapons.

And, naturally, the TSA will soon only allow wheelchair-bound passengers aboard. At least until someone develops telekinesis.

Re:The "enhanced" procedures are useless

[fafaforza]

And given that rules are pretty much modeled after what terrorists already tried, they can simply alter their attempts slightly, or come up with some other clever trick, and all the billions that we're spending on the TSA will be completely wasted. So we're completely unprotected, and all the embarrassing stuff people have to go through is for naught.

Re:The "enhanced" procedures are useless

[sjames]

The terrorists will be mobbed and trampled.

"HE'S got a BOMB!!!"

OMG!!! Can I get it giftwrapped?

I NEED three. Does it come in blue?

I was here first, go find your own bombs!!!

Re:The "enhanced" procedures are useless

[sjames]

I think it's a strong indicator that there just aren't that many terrorists and they're really not all that interested in blowing up Americans.

Or perhaps they're worried they might distract the government from destroying the country.

Re:The "enhanced" procedures are useless

[bm_luethke]

I would suspect that it is both - if it is a very small group of rather incompetents then the intelligence agencies generally do not have a hard time finding them. Lets face it, for the most part if you are competent you are in a country that harbors you and you are sending incompetent minions out to martyr themselves (and, mostly by definition, they are incompetent). It took several tries before they got 9/11 and the large successful ones in other countries (even ones that have little to no intelligence agencies) are mostly duds - smart people rarely martyr themselves (and make no mistake - shooting into a crowd nowadays would most likely end that way) and when they do they do it in a big way.

Our intelligence agencies, while certainly not perfect and have room for improvement, are fairly competent, TSA isn't. Intelligence agencies live and die by what they stop (generally in secret), TSA lives and dies by its reputation and they fell to hard to the "sheople want us to look like we are doing something, their afraid and will take anything we do" meme. That's only true up to a point - people, as a whole, aren't that stupid no matter how much it makes some groups feel good tot think it. If you base your policies on it then this is what happens. The end of the Bush era was about when it started to slide and Obama seems to have thought it was all a great idea so extend more than Bush thought to do in his wildest dreams (which, sadly, seems to be the case in many areas plus adding that level of incompetence in so many others that made it through Bush).

Indeed, intelligence agencies know how to do an effective checkpoint - look to the Israelis to see how. It's not hard to do either and it is MUCH cheaper than this crap. Lots of theories as to why we do not do that and you can insert your own (this makes people money, they are training us, much of the profiling required for it is politically unpopular with certain classes, etc). I suspect that more than one is at cause too - for myself it would be a combination of knowing how much profiling gets bad press and how much money this gets flowing around to political donors. But that's me - you can fairly easily persuade me that others are reasonable too. Heck I'll even buy sheer incompetence and nothing more - having been research staff at a DoE lab I certainly know the good science produced by them is done *despite* the system (and the system produces a great deal of really bad science).

Re:The "enhanced" procedures are useless

[Archangel Michael]

Bush Bots are equal to Obama Zombies. Neither side is innocent, both excuse the excesses of "their side".

However, these measures ARE being done on Obama's watch, by HIS administration in full measure and support. Rush is right here, don't knock it just because Rush is right.

We have to get past the whole left vs right, (R) vs (D), mentality and start making the strange bedfellows we need to make. This is why I hate American Politics, because reason doesn't rule, only the party does.

Re:The "enhanced" procedures are useless

[fnj]

Oh, do you really think they haven't? Think the economic disasters of the bad lettuce, the bad peanuts, all the other recent disasters, were just unusual accidents?

Infecting a single beef feedlot?

Re:The "enhanced" procedures are useless

[PetWolverine]

Another good comparison: Schneier calculated, conservatively, in his recent summary of the situation, that the scanners are probably safe enough to only cause deadly cancer in 16 out of every billion passengers. An acceptable risk, perhaps--but *still* greater than the chances of being killed by a terrorist.

Re:The "enhanced" procedures are useless

[Pranadevil2k]

The reason the idea of a water supply attack is so scary is precisely because there are so many disparate municipals systems. Terrorism is only a physical threat to a small percentage of the population, but it's a massive mind game for everyone that isn't. Imagine what would happen if a terrorist plot to poison a city water supply (to some, say 100,000 people) were discovered and foiled. The news media would have reports from the potential victims saying they had no idea it could happen here, and the security just wasn't in place, etc etc, and the government would act rashly and without thinking, creating some ungodly structure to protect every water supply... The terrorists won the mind game, and that's just for getting caught.

Re:The "enhanced" procedures are useless

[Pranadevil2k]

if 9/11 taught us anything it should be that occasionally terrorists are good at coordinating large plots. One store bombing in one city might not be that big a deal, but what about multiple store bombings across several states? We're talking about people who aren't afraid to kill themselves if it means blowing up 12 people on a bus - what about a few hundred people packed into the line in front of a walmart (or a few hundred thousand, in front of a few hundred walmarts)?

Re:The "enhanced" procedures are useless

[Merls the Sneaky]

The only Authority figures I recognise are my wife and my own reflection. Anyone else want authority over me better be prepared to do what my wife does or they can fuck right off.

Re:The "enhanced" procedures are useless

[llamapater]

nononononono tsa is contained to the airport for now do you really want them everywhere else

Re:The "enhanced" procedures are useless

[protektor]

They are already doing unlawful arrests and detainment of American citizens. It's called the Patriot Act, and yes they have disappeared/arrested a number of American citizens over the years since.

http://www.politechbot.com/p-04221.html
http://www.rense.com/general61/feds.htm
http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/5049867/

The one I can't find now that was pretty well known, was the programmer who worked for...I think Oracle, and the FBI came in one day and arrested him and then no one knew where he was, and they wouldn't even say why he was arrested or anything. No lawyer, no phone call, no nothing, just poof and he was gone. Finally his senator or congressmen had to get involved.

Re:The "enhanced" procedures are useless

[Tom]

You assume maximum death count is the terrorists goal.

I don't think it is. Maximum terror and discomfort is. And on that count, the TSA is on the terrorists side. If I were a terrorist, I'd make damn sure nobody even thinks about bombing the waiting lines, or doing anything else that could result in a re-thinking of the procedure. On the contrary, I would spend all my time coming up with other crazy shit to try (and fail, doesn't matter) so it gets added to the list of stuff you can't do or bring anymore.

Re:The "enhanced" procedures are useless

[yariv]

Such attacks happened in Israel, I specifically remember this one. It is, however, significantly less effective then taking down a plane. Also, you can still find large crowds outside checkpoints in Israel (not in the airport, but in Tel Aviv's central bus station, for example).

Re:The "enhanced" procedures are useless

[squizzar]

I thought part of the problem was the TSA doing stuff that normally only your wife would do?

Re:The "enhanced" procedures are useless

[bjk002]

I would argue that neither yourself, nor the GP quite hit the proverbial nail on the head, though each is squarely swinging the hammer in the proper direction, with the proper velocity.

I think if you were to accept the notion that we as a species are limited in our ability to comprehend complex subject matter, and adjoin that with the truism that we are becoming increasingly specialized along with increasingly busy, we can arrive at a more perfect truth.

People are not necessarily, in your words, "actively choosing not to". Nor are they in the GP's words "Cave men beating on a nuclear reactor with rocks to find out what it is.".

Rather I think that while the capacity to understand exists, the lifestyle most often employed today offers little opportunity to digest the volume of information sufficiently to make informed choices, while simultaneously caring for oneself and one's family/friends.

To generalize, the western civilizations are largely too busy to keep up with all the needs Maslow has defined. Self-actualization is taking a back seat to the lower order needs. This is understandable to a degree, but no less troublesome.

Society is going to have to evolve in such a way so as to allow the individual(s) to provide for all lower order needs and ALSO attain self-actualization for there to be any real solution to the problem we all see as at the root of our current troubles.

Do I have a practical answer? No, not really. But I would offer that less work time, more incentive to continuous learning, and ensuring that the work level contributed, and subsequent compensation for, is adequately addressing the low order needs for the individual(s) is where the solution for this deficit is going to need to spring from.

Still getting over penis-shock.

[girlintraining]

Okay, first -- I'd like to roast the TSA in every way possible for this joke security scheme. That said, the problem is that you just turned a bunch of people loose looking at naked bodies full time when until now they've had very little exposure. It takes awhile to desensitize yourself to the constant nudity and and have it stop distracting you.

Ask any bouncer at a strip club: The first few weeks they couldn't stop looking, but after awhile, a naked woman can walk right past them and it barely registers because it's not new anymore. Happens all the time. And they are focused on the job now.

Re:Still getting over penis-shock.

[mirix]

I'd like to think that the women in a strip club are slightly more distracting than the average flying American.

Hell, I'd be trying to look away from the scanners, not stare at them.

Re:Still getting over penis-shock.

[0100010001010011]

What about the biker that was asked to get redressed so that he could be patted down.

“But that wasn’t enough for the TSA supervisor who was called to the scene and asked me to put my clothes on so I could be properly patted down.”

The statement by the TSA goes to show that it is a complete joke. It's probably the largest single employer of non-HS graduates outside of Walmart. All they know how to do is follow a mental checklist, anything that deviates from that confuses them.

When I flew to India they had just as much (and more) security. The actual threat of a bomb was much greater but they probably had 1/3rd as many workers and numerous faster checkpoints. In America there is 1 'do or die' scanner and then another check for a ticket at the gate.

In India they won't even let you in the building unless your flight leaves within the next 3 hours, don't bother showing up early. Every door is staffed by military. Full gun and uniform, you don't get into the building unless you have a ticket. (Sorry hopeless romantics). Then there is the main body/carry-on scanner. Your carry on gets a tag stamped. You get passed through. But you're still in Purgatory. You have to got through another scanner / ticket check to get out to the gates. Then at the gate they check for the carry-on stamp & ticket. Finally, they won't let you OFF the plane and into the airport unless you have your ticket.

The whole process went so fast, I don't think I waited for more than 3-4 people before I went through. Every single person was military. In shape and carrying a weapon, military.

Compared to O'Hare. Where walking up and down the promenade were a group of 3 TSA "Employees" talking about their boyfriends. Walking 3 wide they had to take up 1/2 the aisle. When we asked a simple question (Can we get food without going through security again) they had no clue. I got better help out of someone that barely spoke English.

TSA is a joke, there are better methods out there implemented by countries where terrorism is a REAL threat (Israel, India, etc).

Re:Still getting over penis-shock.

[jtownatpunk.net]

As much as you'd like to stop looking, you can't turn away. The horror!

Re:Still getting over penis-shock.

[girlintraining]

I'd like to think that the women in a strip club are slightly more distracting than the average flying American.

Average looking strippers make more money than highly attractive ones for one simple reason: The observer is more inclined to believe s/he has a chance.

Re:Still getting over penis-shock.

[Dragonslicer]

As much as you'd like to stop looking, you can't turn away. The horror!

See, the terrorists have won.

Re:Still getting over penis-shock.

[RenHoek]

Well I don't know about you but I was in India several years ago when they bombed Jaipur. Even then, returning at Delhi airport to go home, the screeners were shocked I took off my boots and put them on the conveyor belt. Also _everybody_ had a few 1 liter bottles of water. You can't really go long without water in the summer in India. Just to illustrate, at the same time, the USA and Great Britain were confiscating toothpaste and nail clippers.

Also, as an engineer, I can come up with 10 super effective ways to commit terror acts at the airport without even going through the screening process. Because as an engineer it's my job to find solutions to puzzles. And I'm not the smartest cookie in the jar. That means that any person who'd want to do real harm can just as easily come up with the same things I can come up with.

It's 100% theater. And knowing this, still being forced through the procedures just pisses me off as a law abiding citizen.

Re:Still getting over penis-shock.

[fishexe]

Ask any bouncer at a strip club: The first few weeks they couldn't stop looking, but after awhile, a naked woman can walk right past them and it barely registers because it's not new anymore. Happens all the time. And they are focused on the job now.

If only TSA screeners displayed as much professionalism as bouncers in strip clubs.

Re:Still getting over penis-shock.

[Anonymous Coward]

There is one single example that proves, beyond ANY shadow of doubt, that the x-ray scans and patdowns are 100% bullshit: The fact that they make the fucking PILOT go through it.

Really? The PILOT? As in, the guy who is going to actually FLY the airplane!!!

It makes me want to vomit, seriously. And I used to wonder why people from other countries talked so much shit about America- I always thought it was a combination of misinformation or jealousy, but apparently it's because we're a pack of fucking idiots.

Stop focusing on the negative already!

[Fluffeh]

Here at the TSA, we dislike the way that you are focusing on our mistakes. Yes, we make mistakes, but so does everyone else.

We just happen to be in a position that allows us to have X-Ray vision and check out all the bits that people cover up. I mean seriously, how many times as a kid did you wish to have a pair of X-Ray glasses to check out your neighbor? Well, it's just like that! But we can!

So, please, stop focusing on the bad, just because WE have a toy that you DON'T doesn't mean that you should try to take it away from us!

Now, excuse me, there is a hot chick coming. I need to check her very carefully for explosives and hidden things.

*sips coffee*

Re:Stop focusing on the negative already!

[cronius]

The last of these two videos (maybe NSFW):

http://engrishfunny.failblog.org/2010/11/17/engrish-funny-nma-news-id-fly-that-airline/

TSA @ LAX Saw my junk

[Oriumpor]

Missed an open bottle of mouthwash, missed my wallet pickset and totally did nothing about the oversized shoe inserts in my shoes... something that looks an awful lot like the device that caused the whole "Take of your shoes please sir" bullshit.

The security policies of the TSA are a bunch of horseshit. I had a pair of nondescript headphones wrapped around a "strange" looking (pico projector) device that wasn't even questioned. (Point of fact I had so much electronic shit in my carryon I was already down the hall of the terminal out of view of the screener as he was still looking at my shit.

Oh right, and the scanners themselves weren't isolated from the general public (they were in a raised Kiosk in a 3 point monitor setup, so if you walked up to "ask a question" 2 of the 3 displays were visible at all times. Fuck you TSA.

Re:TSA @ LAX Saw my junk

[geekoid]

So your complaint is there are now too well trained? The can tell the difference between the normal shit you have and a bomb.

Re:TSA @ LAX Saw my junk

[j00r0m4nc3r]

Imagine if they had searched him. "I got stopped and searched over my shoe inserts. Those fucking morons couldn't tell the difference between a pico projector device and a bomb. Fuck you TSA!"

Re:TSA @ LAX Saw my junk

[Johnny Mnemonic]

Those tests, when performed, regularly fail pretty spectacularly. It doesn't help the argument for TSA effectiveness.

Re:Question

[blackraven14250]

I've seen videos of the new scanning procedure where people got scanned, turn 90 degrees, and got scanned again.

Re:meh

[countSudoku()]

I could kill a human with a sharpened pencil, or a rolled up magazine. Take your pick? Can't we all just take some sedatives and fly without the fucking strip search performed by the stupidest humans alive; the TSA Security Agents of Shit? Thank you.

I'm joking, I have a squigly line.

[Anonymous Coward]

Modded off-topic? Bizarre. Grammar jokes are the heart and soul of Slashdot.

I think you misspelled "grammer".

Re:I'm joking, I have a squigly line.

[Anonymous Coward]

Modded off-topic? Bizarre. Grammar jokes are the heart and soul of Slashdot.

I think you misspelled "grammer".

Nope, he got it right. You got it wrong :)

This being modded "informative" instead of "redundant" signals dreaded times.

And let's just clarify a few things.

[khasim]

The TSA has not yet caught a single terrorist attempting to get on a plane.

The TSA is NOT the "last line of defense". The last line of defense will be the other passengers on the flight.

If the TSA really thought that your bottle of water was a bomb then why don't they treat you like a person who just attempted to smuggle a bomb onto the plane?

The TSA is useless at their stated mission.

Re:And let's just clarify a few things.

[lightbox32]

If the TSA really thought that your bottle of water is a threat, would they have you chug it into a container not 5 feet from them?

Re:And let's just clarify a few things.

[shoehornjob]

The TSA is NOT the "last line of defense". The last line of defense will be the other passengers on the flight.

Yeah... I know a few Air Marshals that might disagree with that statement. The training they put these guys through is ridiculous.

Re:And let's just clarify a few things.

[orangepeel]

Ridiculous?

Air marshal leaves plane after dropping bullets

Passenger Finds Loaded Ammunition Clip on Southwest Flight

US air marshal leaves gun in airport restroom

Air Marshal Causes International Incident

Air Marshal Accused of Rape at Gunpoint

Marshals Fight Battle in Air and on Ground

From that last article:

"How would you describe the management in the air marshal service?" CBS News chief investigative correspondent Armen Keteyian asked a current air marshal.

"Sexist, racist, homophobic, anti-disabled vet group, grossly incompetent," said the marshal, whose identity was concealed. "That's the general consensus among air marshals."

Nearly two dozen current or former marshals have told CBS News the agency is dominated by an "old boys club" of white, male supervisors -- mainly ex-secret service agents who, they allege, routinely discriminate, intimidate and retaliate against employees who question their actions or authority.

"This behavior has just spread like a cancer and it's out of control," the marshal said.

Well ... it sounds like you called it right: ridiculous.

Re:And let's just clarify a few things.

[TheLink]

Yeah imagine a dozen people chucking bottles containing explosives into that container, then someone detonates them...

Wasn't too recent - May.

[Anonymous Freak]

It was at w00tstock in Seattle. That was in May.

Obvious What Happened

[Greyfox]

Distracted by his remarkably tiny penis, they didn't notice the razor blades and other hardware he had on him. The message here is quite obvious, if you want to sneak something onto a plane, just use someone with a freakishly small (or probably freakishly large) penis to do it.

They arent looking for terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

An illegal search is admissible as evidence when a 'private entity' has conducted it.

They are looking for drugs, because a cop can't without probable cause.

This is the same reason they wanted to set up a program to have postal employees peeking in your windows.

The fourth amendment is seen by LEO as a roadblock to 'unlimited' revenue based on property seizure.

Pistole, the other day, in bragging about the effectiveness of the scanners, couldn't help mentioning the drug seizures and heroin needle it had detected.

Cop makes his bust, LEO gets his seized house, car, boat, etc to auction. At the very worst, some minimum wage high school dropout nobody of a TSA agent takes any possible legal heat.

Re:They arent looking for terrorists

[zippthorne]

TSA is not a private entity. They could've made that argument when there were private security firms, but TSA is a division of Homeland Security, a cabinet-level department in the executive branch of the federal government.

Their evidence is illegally collected, and would be inadmissible as well, if all the judges weren't corrupt.

Re:Security Theater, a comedy in 5 acts.

[larry bagina]

I've got a fever and the only prescription is more government!

winning the war on toursim

[Presto Vivace]

maybe some day we can go back to probably cause.

Re:winning the war on toursim

[harvey the nerd]

"Winning the war of tourism" means keeps most of that valuable foreign exchange at home. No doubt the Feds consider expats to be traitors, even if enviously.

Re:winning the war on toursim

[antifoidulus]

I can attest to this. I am a grad student in Japan and I get flack from the immigration officers every time I come home. It's a pain in the ass explaining why I am not studying in the US and what I plan to do in my own god damned country.

Re:winning the war on toursim

[Korin43]

We can never go back because just like (most)everything that's wrong with this country it's not about what's right. It's about what makes profit for the rich.

That's what confuses me about this. Why haven't airline lobbyists stopped this yet? Do they not realize that everyone hates flying now?

Re:winning the war on toursim

[IICV]

Maybe we're getting to that point now, but I remember flying out of Seattle circa 2007; I randomly mentioned to someone else who was also going through TSA security that the only reason why we have to take our shoes off is because of some idiot whose plot didn't even work, and wouldn't have worked even if he'd managed to pull it off. The other guy shrugged and said "Well, it makes me feel safer."

So yeah. People hate flying, but they like how safe taking their shoes off makes them feel.

People are pretty stupid.

Uhhh??? Why is no one noticing

[Anonymous Coward]

Why is no one noticing that this video and a lot of sources being reported in the news are previous events that happened 6+ months ago????

TSA - A Good Idea (At First)

[careysub]

Replacing hourly wage untrained rent-a-cops at security checkpoints, with employed professionals with actual management, was a good idea. Before 9/11 airport security was designed to be cheap and not impede the paying passengers. Having training, standards, etc. was a real step up.

Then things began going horribly, horribly wrong.

It is fundamentally impossible to keep every conceivable bomb or potential "weapon" off every plane. There are already gaping security holes (unscreened cargo from abroad, all those goods brought in for sale at the little airport shops, etc., etc.) that are completely unaddressed. Body cavity bombs have already been used and the naked videos and grope sessions won't detect them.

We need someone with some sense running this show. Instead we have Michael Cherthoff.

Did you see this story from the beginning of the year: http://www.infowars.com/chertoff-linked-to-body-scanner-manufacturer/ ? Cherthoff, while serving as a key government official, also runs a private consulting company one of whose clients is - the body scanner manufacturer.

Again we see the government being used as a means to stuff the pockets of well-connected, while your tax sollars are sued to physically abuse you for no benefit.

Let's clarify one more thing

[suomynonAyletamitlU]

If the TSA was keeping us safe, they would have some leniency in their methods.

They (by which I mean the mangers and policy-setters rather than the incompetent, cheap-ass laborers) should not be permitted to use these methods in order to be lazy. If they were serious--if they were even pretending to be serious--there are people they could learn from. "Terrorists" are not a myth, you do not ward them off with superstition and half-assed attempts to look good, which is what security theater is. There are people with experience. There are ways to test the solution. Science can be done upon it. Engineering can be done upon it. It can be made better.

And yet it's clear to me that America does not understand that, nor similar things like public opinion (here or abroad). They are in fact approaching it as though it were superstition--as though these patdowns and screenings were an offering to The God of Public Opinion to say "Look, we're competent! Don't stop flying!" And they're viewing the feedback as though it's Their God Public Opinion saying "that offering isn't good enough"--they're upping the ante, not changing their methods.

And it is "method;" they're trying to prevent something. Their efforts won't work. It won't work in the same way voodoo wasn't medicine and hallucinogens didn't give you contact with gods. It seems like they don't understand that, on a fundamental level, the figurative blood sacrifice that is TSA security isn't going to appease anyone, and people continue to be in danger (however much or little danger actually exists). Or maybe they just don't understand that there are in fact effective methods out there, or maybe they don't care.

And it's that incompetence, whichever form it takes, which is going to kill American citizens some day, when someone actually goes out of their way to prove the complete idiocy by means of a bomb.

Re:Let's clarify one more thing

[mabhatter654]

exactly, the recent case of the guy who had to live with peeing in a bag. He tried to request they be careful, or even ASK what they wanted.. until they squeezed his bag of piss all over him. The entire point what that THEY didn't want to be told what to do, THEY didn't want to pay attention, they wanted to prove a point... and they did... he inconvenienced them and they made him miss his flight and embarrassed him in public. The whole thing is a clear example that THEY DON'T CARE WHAT YOU THINK, they are going to do this ANYWAY especially BECAUSE you don't like it.

If the TSA and FAA was really serious, they would do like the medical centers and consult with Disney and the amusement park industry for how to handle large volumes of people quickly, safely, and respectfully. Getting a few hundred people an hour on a plane should be a piece of cake. Amusement parks put thousands of people per day into tiny carts standing in the hot July Sun, quickly and safely. Why can't multi-Billion dollar airlines? Because they don't have to CARE that's why. There is no excuse for the deplorable mess mass transportation is right now, especially because airports have near complete control of passengers... it's their own petty bureaucracies they can't control.

what's junk anyway

[Cederic]

As someone that isn't in America, I found the over-exhuberant, unnecessary and pain-inducing whooping on the video was so fucking annoying I stopped watching it.

Was there any actual content or did it just continue in masturbatory appreciation of the cult of celebrity?

Things the TSA have don't find:

[gurps_npc]

1. Swiss army knife in carry on.

2. My keys, including a key chain bob that included a 3 inch blade.

------------

Things the TSA make ZERO attempt to find:

1. Poison Gas containers (like Sarin gas used in the 1995 Tokyo Metro terrorist attack - 13 dead)

2. Plutonium powder = dirty bomb.

--------------

Things the TSA take away:

1. Nail clippers (even from US soldiers carrying assault rifles - that the TSA agents were told were unloaded - they did not check)

2. Our dignity

3. Any reasonable definition of the words "reasonable search"

4. Our ability to stand up to government and say THAT'S UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

I'm not surprised they missed the razor blades...

[Rhodri Mawr]

...they are a cutting edge technology after all.

The new terrorist

[nanospook]

It seems like the TSA has become the new Terrorist. If you do anything except what you are told, dispute anything, video capture anything, make any noise, try to back out, it doesn't matter, they will charge you and arrest you. The airports have become a police state. All this effort, when it's obvious it's not working and that if "real" terrorist wanted too, they could hit some other target much easier.. This is just a shame..

Re:because I haven't seen anybody say this yet..

[s0litaire]

it's not "Myth Busted" till we have video evidence of Karri walking through the scanner a few times to test a couple of theories... ^_~

Now I have an even greater fear

[KingSkippus]

I just imagined my home owners association running airport screening, and it sent chills down my spine. You know, maybe the TSA isn't so bad, after all.

OT: Moderation bits?

[NotQuiteReal]

I'll bet the moderation field is at least 8-bits, so there should be 256 moderation items. Plenty of room for "spelling error", "grammar error", "I see your point but I disagree", "yes", "no", "too drunk to moderate", and many other.

Then all the bitching and moaning about moderation could really get wild - what counts up/down, which are neutral, etc.

Thank me later.

Security Proposition

[mcrbids]

I'm probably going to get modded into oblivion for this, because it sounds "right wing" and that's not a popular opinion. (I'm very much a moderate)

The problem is that we're looking at airline security in much the same way that Windows users look at computer security - rather than make the system robust and able to handle the threats (EG: strongly enforced permissions model), we try to eliminate the threats (EG: antivirus). This results in a system that's fragile, and the harder we try to "secure" it, the more fragile it becomes!

That's just dumb.

Rather than try to eliminate all threats, we should be encouraging people who fly to take measures to defend themselves! Rather than disarm everybody (the overwhelming majority of whom are decent, law-abiding citizens with no desire to hurt anybody) we should be encouraging people to carry small arms! I'd be ok with a few restrictions, such as passing a periodic background check and a firearms safety course - this is, in effect, hardening the system so that in the occasion of a filthy hijacker trying to take over the flight, he/she would be facing a fearful, determined audience of ARMED CITIZENS who wouldn't hesitate to take action to preserve their life and liberty.

No amount of government intrusion can eliminate all threats, but by giving everybody the ability to address problems when they occur, they'll find that the overwhelming majority of decent people will quickly subdue the insane minority!

Strangely, this opinion is often very unpopular, even amongst those who are the harshest critics of the TSA. Yet nobody has offered any idea as to why this wouldn't work - this just gets downmodded without comment. As a matter of fact, there are many examples of countries and societies who find that civilization and an armed population in accordance with the rule of law go hand-in-hand.

Re:Security Proposition

[retchdog]

I don't think the guns and knives would do much, and would possibly lead to some incidents with "normal people" losing it on-flight (too much drink, or undiagnosed mental illness, &c.) It seems plausible that the probability of this is much higher than of terrorism. At the least, it should be taken into account. I am fairly pro-2nd amendment, but on a purely numbers level it just may not make sense to have a lot of guns on a plane (or at a school, &c.).

I agree with your spirit though. I think that the post-9/11 knowledge that hijacking=death is enough. A couple of terrorists armed only with knives would be easily taken down by the bum-rush of citizens armed with grim knowledge.

A terrorist with a decent, functional bomb would not be deterred by armed resistance. Assuming he has a real trigger and isn't trying to ignite his groin or shoes, it would all be over without anyone noticing.

Which leaves the possibility of terrorists with guns. However, I'm pretty sure that we achieve 100% gun control on planes anyway (feel free to present counterexample).

OMG

[sp3d2orbit]

"The TSA is ineffective!"

"The line is now a terrorist target!"

"This is so invasive!"

So what you are you going to do about it? That's right. Nothing except whine on the Internet. And vote for Obama in 2012.

You're all pussies unless you take action.

A 1960's chemistry book is more dangerous

[LostMyBeaver]

Back before the 80's high school chemistry books often contained "fun kitchen chemistry" which would explain how to make explosives from items you could find in a kitchen or bathroom. Take a look sometime at the chemicals that are used to make perfumes and makeup. You'll find that you can make a large amount of low yield explosives quite easily using only what's found in duty free. A 2lb brick of low yield explosives is more than enough to breach the plane. But a detonator is still needed. That's no problem either, stop into the electronics store in duty free. You'll find everything you need right there.

If the security serves ANY purpose, that is to make the people who are likely to actually blow a plane up look nervous about it. The profiling kicks in. Of course, if the TSA is a big laughing joke, it'll be easier for these people to be calm and confident because unlike in the old days, when flight security was a little annoying but nothing really impeding, people didn't nitpick it on a global scale and make a joke of it.

What the TSA has done to their reputation has made it so that anyone who actually wants to bomb an airplane will simply walk through the scanners, head held high, buy what they need and bomb the plane they're targeting.

Re:A 1960's chemistry book is more dangerous

[quenda]

You'll find that you can make a large amount of low yield explosives quite easily using only what's found in duty free.

Sorry, I cannot. Where are the oxidising chemicals? I cannot find any hydrogen peroxide there. Something else?

But a detonator is still needed.

That implies you are talking about high explosives, not simple incendiaries. Easy to say, but my duty -free shop does not carry nitric acid.

Re:A 1960's chemistry book is more dangerous

[LostMyBeaver]

I apologize for overgeneralizing and respect I've been called for it.

I'll address the latter first. In this circumstance, the detonator is the device to detonate the explosives. It would be used to detonate an incendiary based on a remote or a timer. Not specifically in the respect of a high explosive. Simply, a method of causing a spark or flame to ignite the item without being present. Buy a remote control car, a watch, etc... headphone cables would be offer wires if needed.

Second, it is entirely legal and practical to purchase hydrogen peroxide in the pharmacy in the duty free area. If that is a "controlled substance" there are more than enough "first aid" products in the same store to provide a similar effect in lower concentration. As for obtaining oxidizing agents from within the traditional "duty free shop", I admit... I'm challenged to find one, but without digging to deep, I'd imagine that it's possible to find it in makeup removers, some toothpastes (in miniscule quantities), I have even seen personal coal/peroxide water filtering items to get modern day yuppies to be able to clean their bottled water with.

While I have not gone through the effort myself to actually try any of these devices. Nor have I seen the benefit in actually devising any one incendiary device based on the theory. But still, the products ARE there. It's a matter of finding them.

P.S. As for nitric acid... well yeh.. pretty sure you're going to have a hard time finding that. But thanks to the Googles I've done just looking for stuff now, I'm pretty sure I'm on a watch list now hehe.

Re:A 1960's chemistry book is more dangerous

[TapeCutter]

If your willing to die you don't need to be McGyver to bring down a plane - stick a rag into your bottle of duty free spirits, light it, and throw it at the cockpit door.

A hole in the plane

[Compaqt]

The thing is, while people have talked about the underwear bomber, shoe bomber, etc., but has anybody established that punching a hole would take down the whole plane?

Didn't Mythbusters "refudiate" the notion that shooting a gun on a plane would crash it?

Or is all this just theater?