Retailers Dread Phone-Wielding Shoppers

Ponca City writes "The WSJ reports that until recently, retailers could reasonably assume that if they just lured shoppers into stores with enticing specials, the customers could be coaxed into buying more profitable stuff too. But now, marketers must contend with shoppers who can use their smartphones inside stores to check whether the specials are really so special. 'The retailer's advantage has been eroded,' says analyst Greg Girard, adding that roughly 45% of customers with smartphones had used them to perform due diligence on a store's prices. 'The four walls of the store have become porous.' Although store executives publicly welcome a price-transparent world, retail experts don't expect all chains to measure up to the harsh judgment of mobile price comparisons, and some will need to find new ways to survive. 'Only a couple of retailers can play the lowest-price game,' says Noam Paransky. 'This is going to accelerate the demise of retailers who do not have either competitive pricing or a standout store experience.'"

Comments

So, the system works?

[bytethese]

'This is going to accelerate the demise of retailers who do not have either competitive pricing or a standout store experience.'

Be creative? Negotiate better wholesale costs so that you can offer your customers lower prices? If not, someone else will. Isn't that capitalism?

If a restaurant had better food, a nicer atmosphere and cheaper prices, wouldn't you frequent that place as well?

Re:So, the system works?

[Anonymous Coward]

Isn't that capitalism?

And I, for one, welcome our new Amazon.com overlords.

Re:So, the system works?

[Abstrackt]

If the fact that Wal-Mart is the only local place I can buy my clothes and groceries is a sign the system is working I'm not so sure I want it to work. I'm not saying we should regulate the hell out of everything but I really miss having other options when I shop.

Re:So, the system works?

[cygnwolf]

[quote] Be creative? Negotiate better wholesale costs so that you can offer your customers lower prices? If not, someone else will.[/quote] And that someone else is Wal-Mart, with their huge market share and buying power to force the manufacturers into giving them a better price than Mom and Pop could ever hope to negotiate.

Re:So, the system works?

[Magada]

Mmm creativity.
Step 1: Tinfoil, and lots of it. Metallic mesh for windows. If you're a mom-and-pop outfit, you may skip step 2.

Step 2: Just to be sure, jam the heck out of GPRS, 3G and 4G frequencies, provide free wi-fi on the premises but route wi-fi traffic through a filtering proxy. Make sure to also provide a micro-cell so you can filter SMS. If all else fails, start jamming voice traffic as well.

Step 3: Profit!

Re:So, the system works?

[dreamchaser]

I know you're being facetious but that isn't allowed under US FCC regulations. Cell jamming of any kind is forbidden.

Re:So, the system works?

[mdarksbane]

I regularly pay a little more for goods that I know less about if I got good service. As long as the price is at least vaguely comparable, being able to physically touch and try out something is worth a bit of money to me. Especially when it's something where the salesperson helped me look at options, understood what I wanted, picked the best value for me, etc, and didn't just hand me which one they were pushing that week.

Of course... sometimes the markup is too high. I really wanted to buy a TV locally, but they "don't price match amazon," which means that the same TV at amazon was $1500 less... you've got to at least make the same ballpark.

Re:So, the system works?

[bytethese]

Unfortunately I can't attest to that, we don't have any Wal-mart's at all in NYC and I seem to be able to shop ok. :)

I work at a large business that often negotiates with vendors for the best prices. Ultimately not everyone will want to go to Wal-mart and would like to have choice. If the service was better, return policy easier or something else, but the prices slightly higher, it may be worth it for me to shop at Wal-mart's closest competitor. Leads to the "creativity" part of the equation.

Re:So, the system works?

[poetmatt]

basically, they're saying that people who do a shitty job are going to fail faster, which is an overall good.

the people who do a good job are also going to succeed faster. So this means that brick and mortar shitstores like best buy will hopefully go out of business (and good riddance)

Re:So, the system works?

[cygnwolf]

Not to self. Preview is your friend.

Re:So, the system works?

[scourfish]

I'm not saying we should regulate the hell out of everything but I really miss having other options when I shop.

In the city to which I'm currently residing in Kentucky (you know, south of the Mason-Dixon, where all of those gun-toting conservatives people love to make fun of so much) there is a Walmart, at least 2 Meijers, several Kroger's, a bunch of specialty ethnic stores, a whole foods type co-op, along with both chain electronics stores and several specialty shops all over the place. "Other options" are doing just fine.

Re:So, the system works?

[cygnwolf]

I work at a large business that often negotiates with vendors for the best prices

See, reference the part where I said Mom and Pop. by that I mean small business, held by some to be the foundation of the American opportunity. Admittedly not the way business is going these days, and this article is highlighting another nail in that coffin.

Re:So, the system works?

[erroneus]

I wouldn't go so far as to say that it's working. People are STILL pretty stupid. Have you noticed that brand markers and logos are getting larger and larger? This is because they are trying to convince the public that they aren't wearing clothes so much as they are wearing labels. (I would say they have been pretty successful so far!) So there's still plenty of room to exploit common consumer stupidity.

Re:So, the system works?

[Magada]

Is it now? Well, then we must stick to just the tinfoil. We'll call it a "thermal coating" and brag about how green we are. Maybe we can redeem some carbon credits too?

The free wi-fi can stay, I assume? Or is there a law against that as well?

Re:So, the system works?

[kenrblan]

I'm with you on this, and that is one of many reasons I try to avoid Wal-Mart. If the end game is that only one store is left in the race to the bottom on price alone, the end result is a total monopoly. At that point, the winning retailer (Wal-Mart) is no longer required to keep the prices low since there is no longer a competitive need. Of course, the free market capitalism evangelists would claim that another store is free to open to compete. The problem with that is the barrier to entry would be beyond any realistic capability and the competitor could be easily squashed by a short term price adjustment from the monopoly. The good news is that there are currently enough competing stores that actually beat Wal-Mart on some prices, quality, or convenience to keep that from happening on the national level. The problem is that those retailers primarily exist in the larger metropolitan areas and not in towns of populations below 50,000 where competition is desperately needed.

Additionally, the smartphone apps are probably shedding the light on the fact that stores other than Wal-Mart often have a better price on many items. That is something I had observed in comparing prices on groceries when a Super-Center threatened the existence of the local grocery stores in the town in which I previously lived. Just because a store says it always has the low price in its advertisement, it doesn't make it true.

Re:So, the system works?

[Lumpy]

Yup, so you cant complain when the only store you can shop at is Walmart.

Walmart can buy 8000X more volume than any other store can so they can undercut everyone.

Fortunately most american shoppers are horribly shallow and dont care most about price but trendyness..

Abercrombie torn up jeans at $150.00 and a Aercrombie Sweatshirt that is lower quality than a Fruit of the loom but says "ABVERCROMBIE" on it and costs $65.00 compared to $19.00 is far more important.

I gotta look like I have money.... Oh and can you drive? I need to let mt BMW 525 sit for a month as I'm close to being over miles on it's lease. And it lets the neighbors see I have a BMW.

Re:So, the system works?

[natehoy]

Here's the problem. Running a brick-and-mortar store costs money. Not only do you have to have the store, but you still have to have the product shipped to the store and warehouse excess inventory, which is not quite as expensive as shipping it to the customer directly but not all that different. The overhead of the retail space (rent, heat, etc), the employees, the display models which usually have to be sold at a discount or disposed of at a loss, and all that makes the per-sale cost of doing business as a retailer significantly higher than that of a pure warehouse operation. You simply can't make up even a fraction of that by negotiating lower costs than what Amazon or NewEgg or Buy.com can get the same item for. Even if you can get a lower cost by 15%, your store costs will gobble that up and more. And you aren't getting lower costs than Amazon, their sheer volume ensures that they will probably have a lower cost than you do.

If you go into a store, that retailer is paying a great deal of money to show you that product on the display rack and allow you to twiddle with it. He's paying a great deal of money to have the item you want sitting on the shelf ready for immediate purchase. He's paying a great deal of money to have someone sitting there ready to at least make a half-assed attempt at answering your questions. He's not paying any less than his mail-order competitors for his product. In order to make a profit, he's got to charge more, so he has to figure out ways to get you in the store buying things he can make a profit on.

I'm not at all suggesting that you "owe" that retailer a sale - it's a free country. But if you go on Amazon and mail-order it to save $10 after spending an hour in a local retail store looking at the item and having their employee answer questions, and enough people do it, the retailer can't make a profit and is going to go out of business. You'll lose the local display of products that the retailer offers you (not to mention the local jobs that retailer offered your community, and the immediate availability of product when you're in a hurry to get something).

It's your decision. I'm just suggesting that throwing your local retailer a bone every now and then will help keep them around. They can't compete with the Amazon's of the world in price, their cost structure is much higher. But they offer you services Amazon can't (immediate availability of items, in-person local returns, display models, live human beings to answer questions, local jobs, etc).

If you don't value those services, then by all means shop from Amazon. Just don't crybaby when your local shops close up and you have to drive two hours to see anything in person, or you are limited to an in-person view of only what your local Wally World carries. Wal-Mart keeps their prices low by engaging in really, really strongarm price negotiations with their vendors, but their selection in any one type of item is usually pathetic and limited to the cheapest and junkiest of the product to keep the prices low.

Again, I'm not suggesting that the retailers have any sort of right to demand your commerce. They don't. The displays are there for you to use. It's a good idea, however, to acknowledge occasionally that those displays cost a lot of money, and consider whether you want them around for future shopping when looking at a few bucks' savings on an item you want. They simply can't match mailorder pricing. So you'll have to decide whether you want to see things before you buy them, and whether that service is worth anything to you.

Re:So, the system works?

[mcmonkey]

I could go on a rant that companies can complete on something other than price; that you could offer customers a product that stands out in terms of quality or style; that some people do more than just buy at lowest possible price and not everything is a commodity.

But that would be a waste of time. Yes, such customers exist, but there are so few of them it's not worth mentioning to most retailers.

Just like the modern economy is a widening chasm between the poor and the rich, the marketplace will be dominated by the Walmarts where the $1.00 pack of 12 socks are made by children in near slave labor conditions paid pennies a day for socks that fall apart after a single use (but for $1, who complains?), and the high-end boutique where the $80 per pair socks are made by children in near slave labor conditions paid pennies a day for socks that fall apart after a single use (but wearing the same sock twice is for poor people).

Re:So, the system works?

[Lumpy]

Metallic tint for the windows is better. Plus you will save money on HVAC

Re:So, the system works?

[Antisyzygy]

Just bought some Abercrombie shirts for 13 a piece. Not bad considering the fabric is high quality and they fit me really well. Only an idiot buys big label shirts for the label or at full price.

Re:So, the system works?

[Pojut]

My wife and I go out of our way to make sure any clothes we buy keep their brand logos on the tag in the back...there's absolutely no reason to pay $50 for a shirt at Abercrombie, American Eagle, or any of those places when it's the same $10 shirt sold at Target or Wal-Mart.

All of the brands worth paying $50 for a shirt keep their logos in check, because they let the quality of the product do the talkin'.

Re:So, the system works?

[Antisyzygy]

I hate salesmen. The last guy I went to at a Conn's (electronics/appliance store) kept bothering me about buying a big TV. All I wanted was a cheaper TV and I had a size already in mind. He literally would not stop following me around and telling me to "OOooh! This TV is so nice though and there is great financing". I can do my own research.

Re:So, the system works?

[MightyYar]

you've got to at least make the same ballpark.

Exactly, I just willingly paid $50 more at a brick-and-mortar plumbing supply place for a specific toilet that was cheaper online. For one thing, I could go over and pick it up immediately, and for another, I didn't have to deal with having a delicate thing shipped to me.

Re:So, the system works?

[bytethese]

See, reference the part where I said Mom and Pop

Valid argument, but see the part above about creativity. :) For example, when I have choice in flying, I sometimes choose JetBlue even though there are cheaper options, because the experience as a whole (Terminal 5, crew, TV in seat) is usually better than the competition. Or when I needed a large screen TV. I went to Best Buy, Circuit City (when they were open) and a local shop here in NYC called J&R. I ultimately went with J&R.

Re:So, the system works?

[Pojut]

Note that we don't shop at Wal-Mart or Target for clothing, I was just pointing out the quality of clothing is pretty much the same. It's similar to the "expensive wine label" effect.

Re:So, the system works?

[bluefoxlucid]

So Best Buy is going to get a taste of what they did to CompUSA and Circuit City? The management at Best Buy--right from the executive level down to store management level--literally cheered when CompUSA and Circuit City were going out of business. I think the executives select aggressive, blood-thirsty drones for district management, who in turn select store managers of the same caliber. They all seemed abusive and shady to me, prone to lie and twist laws... I've seen best buy managers refuse to sell things at the posted price, and constantly play bait-and-switch games; this is the status quo there.

Re:So, the system works?

[bytethese]

Sure, I wouldn't argue that a mid-range B&M shop can compete with Amazon, etc. but If I have 5 B&M shops all with the same item, I'd like to avoid making 5 stops to check the best price. If I can walk into my favorite shop of choice, show that their B&M competitor has a better price and can they beat/match it, then great.

Re:So, the system works?

[Pojut]

Admittedly not the way business is going these days, and this article is highlighting another nail in that coffin.

The very nature of capitalism requires steadily growing greed and want for larger profits. The only way a company can continue selling decent-quality products at realistic prices is if it has no desire to expand.

For some reason, "not expanding" is the same thing as "a business slowly dying", a concept which always eluded me. I mean, come on...if you're posting a profit, who cares if you're growing by 5% or 10% or whatever; you're still making a profit.

Re:So, the system works?

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

I recently bought a book as a Christmas gift for one of my family. It's a best-seller in hardback, and it cost me nearly twice as much in my local bookstore as it would have cost me from Amazon.

On the other hand, it is in pristine condition (unlike the last books I ordered from Amazon, which were significantly damaged due to careless packaging) and it is here (unlike my order full of Christmas DVDs from Amazon, which is now five days overdue, and my other half's similar order, which is now more than a week late).

The trouble is, if most people start checking books out in the bricks and mortar stores but then buying on-line, the kind of crappy service I have received from Amazon lately will be the only option, while the reliable and helpful service provided by my local book store will go the way of the dodo because offering those benefits to potential customers does not directly generate profit. I'm not sure what the answer is, but a pure-capitalism, only-the-price-matters approach certainly isn't it.

Re:So, the system works?

[CCarrot]

Not to self. Preview is your friend.

Hehe, apparently 'not' for you! ;)

Re:So, the system works?

[Anonymous Coward]

You even managed to screw up your 'Not to self.'

Re:So, the system works?

[tophermeyer]

I did this recently with a TV at Best Buy. The sale price on the one I wanted was close enough to what I could find online.

I was able to actually see the TV, see how it looked, and spin the thing around to look at how the I/O ports are configured. I probably paid a little bit more than I would have online, but I firmly believe that the little extra cost is worth it to keep actual displays available at brick-and-mortar mortar locations.

Definitely did not by the extra high quality "HD Optimized" gold plated monster cables though. I might be a little altruistic, but I'm not a fool.

Re:So, the system works?

[Caraig]

It's for this reason that I go to the FLGS (Friendly Local Game Store) rather than order gaming stuff online through Amazon or B&N. Maybe I'll go to DriveThruRPG or Gaming Attic now and then, but if I can order it through Game Kastle, I'll do it that way. I LIKE having a game store located conveniently nearby.

Re:So, the system works?

[bratloaf]

I agree completely. When walmart came to our town, pop about 20,000, it put many other retailers out of business within 5 years: Kmart, Ames (both before their parent companies dried up), two local hardware stores, a 50+ year old (good) local sporting goods store, etc. A few years later when they went "supercenter" and added the groceries it looked dismal for the local grocers too. However, interestingly, after shopping at walmart for groceries and thinking I was getting the best deal/prices, I found that not to always be true. Enough that I found that I can actually shop at Wegmans (a GREAT grocery store that I actually enjoy shopping at) and not really spend any more (with shoppers club card, free). The quality and selection at Wegmans also is infinitely better - especially meat and produce. I now shop at wallyworld as little as possible, which is still too often since there are simply no other nearby options for many goods.

Re:So, the system works?

[gstoddart]

Be creative? Negotiate better wholesale costs so that you can offer your customers lower prices? If not, someone else will. Isn't that capitalism?

You're describing the race to the bottom that is Wal Mart economics. Most companies can't negotiate (or force) a better wholesale rate. Wal Mart relies on more or less gutting US manufacturing, off-shoring, and asking for lower quality goods that they can sell at lower prices. I don't think you want that as an end-point.

If a restaurant had better food, a nicer atmosphere and cheaper prices, wouldn't you frequent that place as well?

I'll be happy with better food and nicer atmosphere. I don't expect the sit-down Italian place down the road to be price competitive with McDonalds. I expect to get great food, really good service, and a more enjoyable experience.

Economics doesn't allow for this infinite downwards elasticity that everybody seems to think is the way it works. Eventually, there is no lower unless you're doing things on the massive scale that is Wal Mart -- which leads to less choice in the market, as well as an undercutting of everybody else and an erosion of local business.

But, hey, if you want everybody to be beholden to Wal Mart for everything because nobody else has a supply chain left, go ahead and support the notion that everybody can negotiate a better wholesale price or simply lower other costs.

Re:So, the system works?

[Lord Byron II]

All the cell phones are doing is adding to the efficiency of the market. And most economists would agree that this is a good thing. Retailers that profit by inefficiencies in the market are doomed to failure eventually, at least if you believe in free market principles.

One advantage that retailers will have for the foreseeable future is in letting the customer experience the product prior to sale. That's a big reason why the Apple company stores are such a good idea. And the reason why Target recently re-did their video game section to allow the customer to hold the game prior to purchase, instead of looking at it behind glass, as was the case before.

Retailers do have a major disadvantage with regard to sales tax. In Chicago, the sales tax rate is currently 10.25%, which means that a $999 TV has over $100 tax applied. This more than negates the cost of shipping by buying online. If I was a Best Buy or a Walmart, I would be arguing for an Oregon-like tax structure, with no sales tax.

Re:So, the system works?

[Charcharodon]

Let me run right down and pick something up from my local bookstore.....oh wait there isn't a local book store because I'm military deployed in the middle of nowhere.

Even back home going to the bookstore means driving half way across town.. I consider the traffic part of the "crappy" experience of buying local along with the lack of selection, the line I have to stand in to by the book, and the musac I have to listen to.

It's a dead argument anyway, I've bought a Kindle and I'm hooked. So the local bookstore as well as the Amazon hard copy book section is pretty much dead to me. In the past two months I've "purchased" and read nearly 70 books. Prices ranging from zero all the way up to about $10 and had them delivered within minutes.

The only downside so far has been the destruction of my first Kindle in my backpack. (The corner of a table caught it square in the middle of the screen.) The second one was bought along with a cover and a armored storage box.

Re:So, the system works?

[haystor]

Not in the article: this is going to accelerate sales tax on Amazon.

Re:So, the system works?

[GooberToo]

You're the exception, rather than the rule.

For most consumers, they would rather buy a label, regardless of quality or price.

Many people find it hard to believe, but for the majority of Americans, purchasing a car is an impulse purchase. Accordingly, most Americans purchase a vehicle because of envy status (label).

As an example, let's look at Corvettes and Harleys. On the world stage, the Corvette is generally considered a crap, plastic car. It sells well in the US because of its American heritage and perceived prestige. The reality is, a much, much better car can be had for the money.

Likewise, look at Harleys. They consistently have extremely poor reliability ratings; especially when compared against the biggest six motorcycle competitors on the world stage. Yet Harleys not only sell very well, but frequently demand a premium price.

Both of the above examples are good indicators of how willing the American public is to pay a premium for an inferior product. So ultimately, regardless of actual quality, its all about label perception.

Re:So, the system works?

[rjstanford]

Yup. Amazon is very rarely the lowest price vendor, but they're close enough and provide a quality service with a very high-quality user experience. If I can wait 2 days for something, I almost certainly get it from Amazon because I know the process, they have all of my information, and I have faith that returns will never be an issue (and are rarely required).

If I want to shop for something, though, I prefer locally owned businesses and will always make my purchase there. Using the service of a bricks-and-mortar store to try something then buying it online is, quite frankly, a crap thing to do.

Re:So, the system works?

[bluefoxlucid]

I've been wanting to start a competitor to Wal-Mart but you know, no capital. It'd be like Wal-Mart but more selective...

Wal-Mart sells some good stuff, but mostly crappy stuff; but for the most part all they do is play on price. I can get King Arthur Flour for about $3.50 for a 5lb bag there, which is a great price for the best flour I've yet found; although the bags look a little manhandled, and I wonder if they really have 5lb or if some's been beaten out of them in transit.... Wal-Mart pushes its manufacturers to reduce prices at any cost, suggesting ways to cut corners, get cheaper materials, even outsource to China; I dislike this, because they care nothing for quality.

What I want is a Wal-Mart like store that specifically tries to play the budget game, but on value terms. "Cheap as shit" is not value; "Great Value" brand food is the least costly food, but also the worst value. If you want value, you must spend a little more.. and only a little more.

When I buy clothes, I go to Sears. I pick out Land's End Business Outfitter's clothes. A shirt at Wal-Mart costs $18 and tears at the seams or develops fuzzy spots or holes after 2-3 washes; after 2 years, the $25 Land's End shirts I have aren't even discolored, much less fuzzy or tearing. One DID fall apart, a little... one of the seams wasn't finished right. I have had 8 of their shirts, that one was an oddity. I suspect performance of Polo and Doc Martin's clothes would be the same; Levis always made awesome jeans. By the way, pants at Wal-Mart cost about $22 last I looked, and Land's End pants cost $40 BUT I buy them on sale for $30, which happens all the time.

That's the kind of thing I would do for a Wal-Mart clone. We can't compete on price with Wal-Mart, but you aren't getting Wal-Mart crap. I'd skip the standard stuff. In the food section I'd only offer King Arthur and maybe some of the fine-milled flour I can get at the farmer's market in bulk (I'd talk to the farmers for this one). There's way better milk than the mass-market pushed crap; Trickling Springs Creamery makes EXCELLENT milk (it surprised me milk actually could taste better), and there are other dairies that put out cheaper but still better product than Leigh's and Cloverfield. Fresh baked bread is always good; there would be a bakery ... like at Safeway, you know, $1 baguettes and artisan loaves, bread is pretty cheap to make and can be done en masse for not too much labor cost (that $1 baguette is 25 cents of product and 75 cents of labor and margin).

Good food, better quality non-designer-brand clothing (not like $100 shirts, more like $25 shirts instead of $18 shirts), maybe stock some alternative stuff in the personal care section (Merkur DE razors, straight razors, brushes, DE blades; Dr Bronner's soap, etc, there's some not-Dial-soap that's not $4 a bar too; some higher end colognes that only cost $10-$15 a bottle...). I might tint the CD section... no censoring CDs, but aim for less mainstream material and more diversification (i.e. have Die Toten Hosen in the metal section, some Eurobands, some less-known names like Sonata Arctica, indie stuff and good mainstream), maybe with a suggestion box so customers can share their favorite no-name bands. CDs are easily accessible (Amazon), I'm not interested in pushing mainstream crap; the value-add service there is to have an "interesting" CD section, not a grocery section to buy radio songs and Top 10 hits.

I think it's a sad reflection of society that we have places like Wal-Mart that push "low low LOW prices" and sell absolute garbage. Everything there is either "what everyone buys" or "something we dug out of the trash" ... it's like a dollar store that's trying not to be a dollar store. They know they have to sell actual Oxyclean because the brand recognition is better than the $1 price tag on "Awesome Oxygen", same goes for dish washing liquid and motor oil (motor oil is actually important though). Gillette razors are so over-markete

Re:So, the system works?

[HeckRuler]

Yeah, Wally can beat out people when it comes to the price of bottom rung items. They're competitive for that bragging right, and the societies assumption that Walmart is cheap. But if you don't want the cheapest of cheap crap, Walmart isn't such a good deal. Classic bait and switch.

Re:So, the system works?

[Quiet_Desperation]

I shop at a Pavilions despite the fact that the much cheaper Stater Brothers and Ralphs are just a couple blocks further. They remodeled the Pavilions with wood floors and indirect lighting in place of the florescent glare and linoleum, and it is just so friggen nice in there. They also have a killer deli and butcher. Nice meats. :)

It's hard to find an electronics place with good staff. I usually rely on places like AVS forums. I look for the models with the least complaints because, well, they complain about everything there.

Re:So, the system works?

[Xtravar]

If you're buying clothes at Wal-Mart, you're doing it wrong.

Re:So, the system works?

[biryokumaru]

Funny, I have exactly the opposite experience.

I often find that things I purchase in stores are typically damaged or previously opened by another shopper or some such. That's assuming the store even carries what I'm looking for. Not only is the price higher, but I fully expect if I bought a book at a store here, it would be missing five random pages.

Amazon, on the other hand, usually ships things to me faster than I'd expect, and I already have free two day shipping. Often I've ordered some obscure audio plug or another late one night and had it arrive the following morning. The things I order are far and away in better condition than at a store, and always, always, always cheaper, even when I have to pay for shipping.

But then, I live in New York City, so, well, the real world here is rather sub-par. Never have I lived in a place where it is so difficult to find something simple. I'm tired of having to dig through Google for five different locally owned stores because the chain I'd normally go to doesn't operate in the city, just to find none of them have a good supply of anything anyone would ever need.

Re:So, the system works?

[mcvos]

And I, for one, welcome our new Amazon.com overlords.

I don't. I'm still trying to boycott them because of the WikiLeaks thing. Added bonus is that I might support local brick & mortar shops a bit more, and it sounds like they can use that support. I guess the worst thing that can happen to them is that someone is browsing through their shop, finds something interesting, examines it, checks online for the reviews, finds it way cheaper there, and decides he can wait a few days for the cheaper option to be delivered.

Re:So, the system works?

[maxume]

Someone working full time at their small business and posting a profit of $50,000 is probably going to care an awful lot about growing it.

Re:So, the system works?

[rjstanford]

I'll be happy with better food and nicer atmosphere. I don't expect the sit-down Italian place down the road to be price competitive with McDonalds. I expect to get great food, really good service, and a more enjoyable experience.

One thing that has happened that a lot of people don't like to talk about is that a lot of sub-par small businesses have also shut down. If the sit-down Mexican joint was the only place in town and everyone was used to it, then a Chipotle moved in next door and offered food that was 95% as good for 40% the price, you'd expect the more expensive one to suffer. In many small towns businesses have stepped up their game to actually offer those things that makes them stand out - better service, better focussed selection, etc. In others, people realized that what they thought had been good pricing/selection/service actually wasn't.

Of course, many fine businesses have been hurt as well because people will accept 50% of the quality for 90% of the cost. But that's not the whole story.

Re:So, the system works?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm aware of several stores opening to compete, they are just coming from directions you may not have thought of. One is actually first and foremost a grocery chain that is expanding to include electronics, clothing, etc. The pricing there is usually better on some things but not on others but they are aware and practice good competition strategies to gain market share. It's working great for them, largest privately owned company in Texas. "Necessity breeds invention/innovation" is the rule that applies. Not to discredit your point, I think it's completely valid but we tend to be more doom and gloom and in reality it there is usually a breaking point and something else comes into place after it. I'm not so worried about the Wal-Marts ruining my way of life, I plan to make enough money to never shop there by choice but I understand that those stores also provide a value based decision for those that don't have the capital to choose otherwise.

Just food for thought. You brought up a great point on the phone app as well.

Re:So, the system works?

[MoonBuggy]

I'm not sure what the answer is, but a pure-capitalism, only-the-price-matters approach certainly isn't it.

Don't blame capitalism - the overall customer satisfaction is as marketable as the physical product. The issue is that most people place a very low dollar value on ancillary services (nice store, helpful staff, etc.) - often a much lower value than it costs to provide those nice extras. The fact that your local book store is still in business is proof that there is a market for good service even at a premium price, although it's something of a niche. I do sometimes think it's a shame that most people will apparently put up with some really terrible service in an effort to save a very small amount of money, but there will more or less always be a little space for stores which are competitive on service not just price. How the big-box electronics stores survive, however, I simply cannot understand - I've never found one with remotely worthwhile price or service.

Re:So, the system works?

[Eponymous Coward]

I'm not sure what the answer is, but a pure-capitalism, only-the-price-matters approach certainly isn't it.

Capitalism is about the best value, not price. For you, that means shopping at a local B&M. Like the last sentence of the summary says, retailers need to provide a better experience to prosper.

Re:So, the system works?

[Compholio]

For some reason, "not expanding" is the same thing as "a business slowly dying", a concept which always eluded me. I mean, come on...if you're posting a profit, who cares if you're growing by 5% or 10% or whatever; you're still making a profit.

I believe that the idea is that in theory a business that is doing a good job will continue to expand its customer base, if nothing else then by word of mouth. Personally, I don't really buy it since measuring customer base by revenue is subject to huge fluctuations in purchasing habits.

Re:So, the system works?

[Pojut]

True, but I'm referring more to large businesses. If a company makes $100 million in profit one year, and $150 million in profit the next year, but they were expected to make $175 million in profit, the market completely disregards the fact that they grew and their stock dives.

Why? Because they didn't hit some arbitrary expectation of growth? Because they were greedy, but not greedy enough? That's what I was referring to.

Re:So, the system works?

[xtracto]

In Europe (where I live now) there are some products named "fair trade" which are a bit more expensive than the "generic" ones but the extra money is supposed to go to fair payment of the population. There are even some shops that have only "fair trade" stuff. Usually all the products are Latin American (Mexican Honey si señor!) or African.

Now, I do not know if something similar exists in the USA, however I can really justify paying a higher price for the same products in a shop if only to be fair with the people in the city. Kind of paying "fair trade" price to the local retailer.

That is also why it is good to buy in the local markets (fruits and vegetables)... here in Germany they also usually are fresher than the big supermarkets (fucking green bananas and mangoes, they are never ripe enough for me :(

Re:So, the system works?

[__aamnbm3774]

And you have somewhere to return it. And someone to complain to directly.

The premium you pay is more like a warranty of sorts. Someone/something is more accountable than an invisible mega-corp who mysteriously ships things to you.

Have you ever had an Amazon shipment not show up? It's horrendous trying to get your money back (or a new set of items). Amazon blames UPS, UPS blames Amazon. It sucks hard. It takes weeks beyond what you wanted to wait.

Re:So, the system works?

[Anonymous Coward]

I am failing to see how you can use the Corvette in your argument. For it's price there isn't another vehicle that can compare. This in no way is meant to contest your overall point, which I happen to agree with.

Re:So, the system works?

[Sponge Bath]

...unlike my order full of Christmas DVDs from Amazon, which is now five days overdue

You are not the only one suffering shipping problems from Amazon recently. Amazon has been systematically switching areas to use poorly performing cut rate carriers (A-1, Ensenda, Lasership, Prestige, etc) for even 2-day Prime and overnight shipping. Check out Amazon's own shipping forums for the complete horror show.

Maybe Amazon is trying to give brick and mortar retailers a holiday gift by making shipping so unreliable. In my case, it only drove me to Newegg and other online retailers that continue to use FedEx and UPS.

Re:So, the system works?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not everyone competes on the lowest price. Believe it or not, and I realize that this is shocking to some people, some manufacturers compete on the quality of their goods. These do not have basement prices.

Re:So, the system works?

[LoudMusic]

If Wal-Mart is the only place you can shop you're either not looking hard enough or you are poor as dirt.

Prove to me there is a town where Wal-Mart is the only place to buy food or cloths.

Re:So, the system works?

[rickb928]

"I really miss having other options when I shop"

How about going to other stores? Just a thought...

Re:So, the system works?

[cdrguru]

The real result is no "local" merchants. Pre-sale customer service is non-existent from Internet merchants, so you are on your own. And, nobody but nobody can compete with Walmart.

So we are left with Walmart and Amazon. Period.

Lowest price isn't the only qualification for a happy customer, but it is the only criteria on the Internet. The end result of this is that your locally-owned store can't possibly compete with the national retailer and even the national retailer can't complete with Walmart. Amazon has lower prices than Walmart sometimes because they don't have the store overhead.

But anything "neighborhood" is gone.

One thing to keep in mind. Commercial real estate is going to crash shortly, within a couple of years at best. Nobody has high occupancy and the owners are stringing the lenders along with hope and promises. This will either accelerate the process with the closing of stores or it will be coming in right at the end to tip the strip mall and shopping center into being completely vacant.

Expect squatters to be living in the empty stores.

Re:So, the system works?

[Anonymous Coward]

You must be living in Lexington or Louisville. Try living in any of the smaller cities out in Kentucky. At best you get a Walmart and a Kroger and to go to any other store takes at least a 30 minute drive and that's if you live near enough to one of those two cities. As a small retail business owner in one of these small cities, Walmart is a major competitor that is hard to beat due to its insanely low margins and costs of the products they carry. It would be impossible to survive if we priced our products similarly assuming we could even get the low cost levels that Walmart gets. Therefore, we target a different market that doesn't directly compete with Walmart and provide tons of customer service. Even then though, many people don't understand that the lower quality product from Walmart is not the same as the higher quality, more expensive product from our store. It's very difficult to distinguish different quality products, especially in our market, when someone is selling a similar product for so cheap.

Re:So, the system works?

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

The trouble is, nothing stops the phone-wielding shopper from enjoying any better experience that might be offered by a local book store, but still giving their money entirely to the cheap on-line supplier anyway.

Re:So, the system works?

[Bigbutt]

Yep, me too. I'll hit the big three that are close to me (Total Escape Games, Stonebridge, and Karliquins) to spread the money around. I'll also buy from Borders or B&N's B&M store if they have what I'm looking for but don't get dead tree from them. I occasionally get a new book from Amazon but it's generally a "I have $75 and need a couple of more things to bring it over $100" thing than looking for something specific. I also hit the game company sites like Catalyst's on line store for PDFs vs DriveThruRPG because I feel they're getting all the money vs going through a third party. Plus DTRPG has DRM which bugs me. If the DTRPG PDF has DRM, I can't resave PDFs with JPEG2000 so they're not visible on my iPad.

That was fun :)

I have been buying more ebooks for my iPad/iPhone through B&N for the nook and Amazon for the Kindle readers.

[John]

Re:So, the system works?

[rtb61]

Then of course the new internet reality is the death of all retail operations. Technically they are are waste of time and your hard earned income. The new shopping experience will be driven by logistics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logistics with a good web interface.

So order your desired products from the logistics company and they source it direct from manufacturers and deliver it straight to your door, no middle men, no exporter, importer, wholesaler, retailer, chain of profit margins to rip you off, just the manufacturer and the logistics company.

Re:So, the system works?

[rickb928]

I willingly pay more for goods that are not manufactured by our enemies. It makes no sense to enrich those nations that are set against us.

And yes, this means I am inconvenienced. I remember having to search for a particular Walkman player, or go to the dirty record store to find dance singles and electronica, before the Internet. It is often an effort to do what you really want.

Be intentional.

Re:So, the system works?

[Anonymous Coward]

To be fair, their ads only say "Always low prices", not "Always the lowest price."

Re:So, the system works?

[tibman]

Louisville?

In my area of KY there are plenty of smaller food and clothing shops too. In fact a new meat store just opened up mid-way between two walmarts. They sell local chicken eggs, fresh meat, process any kills you have (if you hunt), and they have a decent veggie section. There are also two farmer's markets within 10 miles of my house.

As far as clothing goes there is Kohls, JcPenny, Fashion Bug, TJ Max, Target, Carhartt and more. This is a small-midsize town. You can drive through the town in about ten minutes (if too many lights don't catch you).

I doubt KY is the only place like this. Abstrackt either lives within walking distance of Walmart and doesn't have a car, or maybe just crying wolf.

Re:So, the system works?

[Anonymous Coward]

Get back to protecting our freedom!

Re:So, the system works?

[spire3661]

Its only the most recent revisions of the Corvette that make it a world beater. The C6 (2005-present) Corvettes definitely stand shoulder to shoulder with their peers. Before C6 yes it was a plastic piece of shit.

Re:So, the system works?

[Anonymous Coward]

This sounds like a fairly large city. I live it the biggest city in the county, less than 5,000 and Walmart DID chase off all the other retail stores. All we have left is Walmart and Kroger. Anything more is a 17mi drive away to a city of 22,000. After that it turns into a half a day trip.

What you're describing doesn't sound like the KY I know. (I live in southern ohio)

Re:So, the system works?

[dasunt]

If the fact that Wal-Mart is the only local place I can buy my clothes and groceries is a sign the system is working I'm not so sure I want it to work. I'm not saying we should regulate the hell out of everything but I really miss having other options when I shop.

I don't think I've bought anything at Walmart in months, mostly because I'm a cheap bastard and I live in an urban area.

For clothing, Walmart isn't that bad, but the quality can be pretty crappy, and the selection is limited. I prefer either off-price retail chains, thrift stores, or specialty stores, depending on what I'm buying.

For food, Walmart tends to be pretty competitive for some stuff, but quality wise, farmer markets are about as price competitive, and there's places like Big Lots that tend to have some better food. If I lived next door to a Super Walmart, I'd probably shop there for some food, but I don't miss the lack of one locally.

Re:So, the system works?

[Anonymous Coward]

Unfortunately I can't attest to that, we don't have any Wal-mart's at all in NYC and I seem to be able to shop ok. :)

Try a google search for NYC and Wal-Mart. There seem to be plenty.

Re:So, the system works?

[cdrguru]

Yes, but if your phone (or browser) tells you the price is lower at Walmart, why wouldn't you go there? Why would you ever try to bring something subjective that your phone isn't telling you into the equation? Isn't the low price the only real quantative measurement that is possible?

And it is the only one that your phone is telling you.

Re:So, the system works?

[BrokenHalo]

On the other hand, it is in pristine condition (unlike the last books I ordered from Amazon, which were significantly damaged due to careless packaging) and it is here (unlike my order full of Christmas DVDs from Amazon, which is now five days overdue, and my other half's similar order, which is now more than a week late).

To be fair, Amazon is good about replacing defective or damaged goods. In the case of CDs and DVDs, they usually don't even ask you to return the faulty items - though I'm willing to admit that the fact that I live in Australia might have some bearing on that. It might be a different story for denizens of the US.

You can't really blame Amazon for the vagaries of your postal service, however. On a couple of occasions when goods I have ordered have been late enough for me to wonder if something has happened to them, Amazon have re-shipped the goods at no charge, so I ultimately got left with two copies of everything.

Have you tried contacting their customer support? I have found them unfailingly willing to help.

Re:So, the system works?

[eison]

The chains don't have a good supply either. You can find book #4 and #7 in a popular series, and anything else they will be happy to special order for you. But if I'm going to be ordering and waiting for things, why shouldn't I just do it myself online and save some money and avoid having to drive back to the store?

Re:So, the system works?

[pnuema]

It happened when companies became investments rather than business. Privately held companies do not have to deal with this BS.

Re:So, the system works?

[kenrblan]

You just hit on one of my fundamental disagreements with how the US economy now operates. Originally, when companies opened their stock for public purchase, the idea was to get a cash infusion to accomplish some objective (expansion, r&d, and so on). Those stock holders often received a dividend on that purchase. For instance they might have purchased stock at $10 per share, receiving a quarterly dividend of say $0.25. This essentially meant the investor often saw an immediate return on the investment when the company was profitable. In this case, a 10% return annually. This encouraged long term holding of the stock and a more stable stock price that didn't require dramatic 10% growth per year. If the stock holder held the example stock for 10 years before selling, the sale would be pure profit regardless of the stock price at the time of the sale. The problem is that a 100% publicly owned corporation gets very little benefit from the stock market once all of its shares have been bought up since the sales of its shares don't infuse new revenue into the company since those stock exchanges happen solely between 3rd parties.

Now stocks are bought and sold primarily for short term gains since most stocks don't produce dividends. The only motive there is the price of the share, which dictates that the company has to show profit growth. When a company makes a 3% growth in profit instead of 5%, the share price usually takes a significant hit, which is very illogical considering the company has actually improved its value per share. Wall Street now operates on totally unrealistic expectations of infinite 5-10% annual growth which is obviously unsustainable in the long term. This seems painfully obvious to me, but I never hear financial analysts discuss it on "news" shows.

Re:So, the system works?

[wwfarch]

Wegmans is a great Grocery store. I'm originally from their home town (Rochester, NY) and recently moved to a small town where they opened up a few years ago. In the town I'm currently in their biggest problem is that people assume they're more expensive than the other stores. This is largely because they have a very nice shopping experience. I'm constantly telling people to actually compare the price they pay and they inevitably spend roughly the same amount of money for a MUCH better experience.

Re:So, the system works?

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

In the city to which I'm currently residing...

See, here's the thing... you live in a city. Walmart primarily targets rural towns and works hard to drive every other business into the ground so that they can have a near monopoly on retail sales in that location. Sure, sometimes competitors come in like Meijers or Kroger, but usually only once a town reaches a certain size, large enough to be profitable for them. In many cases only Walmart's huge volume and cutthroat supplier practices make what they do profitable over long period of time. So in that regard, the system is failing the citizenry in small towns.

I also think if people knew and understood Walmart's practices and how they effect American manufacturing, people would be outraged and demand those practices be banned. Given our current educational and political strife, however, that's not ever going to happen. There is some hope though as many small manufacturers have become savvy enough to realize doing business with Walmart may look like a good idea and will net them large short term profits, but it will also kill them within a decade. Numerous books and articles about how it works have made their way around to most every business school and publication so informed businessmen know how to avoid it. The only issue remaining is that unscrupulous businessmen will take the deal, cash out when profits go up, and walk away before the company dies.

Re:So, the system works?

[nelsonal]

My experience has been that really expensive clothing lasts a lot longer than the moderately expensive stuff. There's a huge difference in durability (especially after 10-20 washs) of the stuff that was sourced through Nordstrom's boutique vs the stuff sourced through their mainline stores. Oddly the price difference is pretty slim once it gets to the clearance rack at their liquidator.

Re:So, the system works?

[radtea]

I was able to actually see the TV, see how it looked, and spin the thing around to look at how the I/O ports are configured.

Having just helped my g/f buy a netbook at Best Buy, I'd highly recommend you do the same thing to the TV they actually sold you, which may not be the one on the shelf.

Seriously: the clowns at Best Buy tried to sell us the wrong netbook with the wrong battery at the wrong price. That was AFTER I had opened the box to check things and noticed a 25 Whr battery that was supposed to last six hours, spoke to the sales-person about it, who spoke to the "Geek Squad" clown about it, who assured me that advances in battery tech and power management made it totally plausible that it was the right battery.

When I realized the price was wrong on the bill I got the sales clown to bug the manager who tried to blow me off. I then pointed out the model number on the bill was different from the one on the self and the manager claimed the last four digits were only for colour. I leaned on them (politely) and got them to look up the model number online, and lo and behold it was rather more than the colour that varied with those crucial last digits.

So a computer-literate, physically imposing man who has been described as 'forceful' in performance reviews was just barely able to get the correct product out of Best Buy. I can only imagine what the average person goes home with.

The best thing: after all this my g/f decided to buy a carry-bag for the netbook, and they charged her the wrong price for it (she went back the next day and got it reduced to the posted price, and they immediately pulled the posted price off the stand...)

I've had pretty terrible experiences with TigerDirect, who have great prices but really annoying follow-up (endless calls from salespeople). But I'd gladly buy from them if it meant never having to set foot in Best Buy again.

Re:So, the system works?

[Anonymous Coward]

free market capitalism evangelists

Well, if a "free market" existed anywhere in the world you might have a point.

Instead we have government handouts to big companies for "creating jobs" as well as complex regulations designed to crush smaller competitors who lack the legal departments to find all the loopholes and deal with the red tape.

Re:So, the system works?

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

FWIW, I'm the in UK, and it's Amazon UK that I'm talking about here. Their deliveries have been completely stuffed by the snow over the past couple of weeks. Because, y'know, snow is completely unexpected in our country in the middle of December and none of the weather forecasters saw it coming days in advance or anything.

In fairness, up in the north of the UK, the snow has been heavier than usual this year, and I can understand and accept carriers having difficulty physically reaching certain locations during these conditions.

What I can't accept is that Amazon, who are obviously in close contact with these carriers and must have a great deal of influence to wield, still appear to have been consistently and dramatically overstating their ability to deliver products for much of December. Even when the worst of the snow had fallen and it was obvious that the carriers were struggling with delivery dates, the Amazon web site had a banner up saying that deliveries might be 1–2 days later than the original estimate because of the bad weather. As I said, mine is now 5 days late, my partner's stuff is overdue by more than a week, and I know various other family members are experiencing similar or worse.

Just for kicks, I'll also mention that Amazon claimed to have shipped my delivery the day after I put the order on the web site, yet according to the Royal Mail when I put the tracking number into their web page, they were still waiting for the package to come into their possession a full week later. I am now quite convinced that Amazon are outright lying to try to keep the orders coming in at a highly profitable time, even knowing that it is highly unlikely they will be able to honour the delivery dates they are quoting. Then again, given that the last ordering dates to receive goods by Christmas for the different delivery options have varied by as much as 2 days depending on which specific Christmas delivery information page you looked at on their site, or have been changed and then changed back again on the same page within a 10 minute window, maybe even Amazon themselves no longer have any idea of what they are actually promising...

Re:So, the system works?

[TheRaven64]

And the most amusing part of this is that the really expensive labels either don't have a designer label at all (people are expected to recognise the designer from the design) or have a very tiny one somewhere where most people don't notice it. People who are real snobs about clothes avoid anything with an obvious label.

Re:So, the system works?

[BrokenHalo]

Despite my earlier positive remarks in favour of Amazon, I often find that shopping for some goods (especially electronic devices) is better done in bricks-and-mortar shops. I do sometimes scan the barcode to take a quick look at the competition, but often find the two factors of having to wait for delivery and being gouged for postage are enough to pursuade me to just buy the product there and then.

But here in Australia, taxation on books, CDs and DVDs is so heavy as to amount to daylight robbery, so I almost never buy those locally unless I have a voucher to spend.

Re:So, the system works?

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

At the moment, their customer support appear to be completely overwhelmed.

As for damaged goods, they are better than they used to be a few years ago, but that's not really the point: if I'm ordering something in time for Christmas and it's taking 2–3 weeks to delivery anything at all, there isn't time to send things back or get replacements shipped before the big day anyway, which is why I no longer buy books intended as presents from Amazon at all. I want it physically in my possession, and known to be in good condition, so I know I can give it to the recipient at the right time.

Re:So, the system works?

[nelsonal]

Wal-Mart's secret to success is that they most efficiently communicate actual buyer behavior back to manufacturers with the minimum manipulation or cost. So while everyone may not like what's offered at wal-mart, many/most people prefer it to other options. This is the store that knows that Strawberry poptart demand rises 2-3x after a hurricane, but other flavors are flat. If they sell mostly cheap products at low prices with few options for more quality, it's because most buyers only buy cheap products at low prices and don't see any reason to trade up, that's a problem with manufacturer branding or value propositions though.

Re:So, the system works?

[Jeff DeMaagd]

The thing is, investors want the value of their investments to grow. No growth means their share price isn't rising, some people call that stagnant. Stock traders just don't like that. Businesses can give dividends, but dividends are taxable under income tax rates and not the lower capital gains rates.

Re:So, the system works?

[TheRaven64]

In Europe (where I live now) there are some products named "fair trade" which are a bit more expensive than the "generic" ones but the extra money is supposed to go to fair payment of the population

Supposed to is the operative phrase. Fair trade is an absolute disaster. The difference in the amount paid to the suppliers between fair trade and normal goods is typically a few pence, while the increased profit for the retailer is a few pounds. Fair trade also has a nasty habit of distorting the local economy at the producing end. The Fair Trade crops for export are much more profitable to grow than food for selling locally, so they drive up the price of food and make the poorest people starve. The farmers that produce Fair Trade goods make a lot of profit and end up buying neighbouring farms, further reducing the food supply. People who can afford imported food are fine, everyone else dies.

Re:So, the system works?

[nelsonal]

The airlines learned this a little while ago.

The cheapskate option in most bricks and morter stores is to buy over time, loss leaders/promotion/clearance will usually bring lower prices than any other method, if one is patient enough, the trick is the entire store is an exercise testing your patience.

Re:So, the system works?

[babblefrog]

If you have money to invest, you are going to be looking for the best return on your capital, modulo the risk of the investment. This applies whether you are Joe Venture Capitalist, or Teachers Retirement Fund, or College Endowment, or Greedy Billionaire. How do you think it should work?

Re:So, the system works?

[couchslug]

Hardware stores of the traditional sort are precisely the places customer service can be used to make a business profitable.

Our local hardware store (Wally's Hardware, Sumter, SC) in next to a Walmart and a Lowes. Instead of being crushed, it benefits from the traffic they generate.

Better selection of hardware ("choice" matters more than bulky displays), immediate greeting by people who actually know something about what they sell, and a friendly atmosphere allow it to thrive under the footprint of bigger retailers. ++ for the stainless and other fastener selection.

I don't work there, just a satisfied customer for more than 20 years.

Re:So, the system works?

[nelsonal]

The stock price is basically the expectation of future stream of dividends, and the most important valuable are those over the next 10 or so years. For a growing company there might not be any dividends expected in 10 or so years, so the growth rate must remain exceptionally high for the stock to have any postitive value. The difference between a 50% growth rate and a 75% growth rate in the present on expected dividends 20-30 years from now (if you expect growth to follow some sort of decellerating growth rate) is pretty significant, so the stock price moves down to reflect the new expectations. It'll move less if management can make a good case for why the lower profit now will mean less decay in the future, but market participants will probably take it with a grain of salt and wonder why that wasn't in the original plan if it was such a good idea.

Re:So, the system works?

[Chaos Incarnate]

Borders, at least, is willing to have items shipped to your home for free if they weren't in stock at the store.

Re:So, the system works?

[wwfarch]

I think you really missed the point of the post and focused on the literal translation of the words posted. I think Pojut meant that a business can be posting a significant profit without growth and still be fine. If you're running a one-man business with a profit of $500,000 but no longer growing I think that's fairly successful. If you want to grow the business to be larger then go ahead but that doesn't mean the business is slowly dying.

Re:So, the system works?

[DogDude]

In most cases, you have to expand. If you don't, then somebody will get bigger, faster, with more money, and muscle you out. Only a tiny, tiny fraction of the best small businesses can maintain without growing.

Re:So, the system works?

[AltairDusk]

We have a Wegmans nearby, the first time I walked into the place I had to remind myself I was actually in a grocery store. They actually have very decent food in their cafeteria too, the soups are great. The only reason I don't do most of my grocery shopping there is convenience. There is a Pathmark just down the road from me whereas Wegman's is a 20 minute + drive depending on traffic.

Re:So, the system works?

[lars_stefan_axelsson]

For some reason, "not expanding" is the same thing as "a business slowly dying", a concept which always eluded me. I mean, come on...if you're posting a profit, who cares if you're growing by 5% or 10% or whatever; you're still making a profit.

Because that's how even the worst alternative, i.e. interest work. If you put your money in a bank account you get a certain percentage as interest. If you let that accumulate you have exponential growth. And that's what all other investments have to compete with. So it's not only growth but exponential growth. Otherwise you're just not keeping up with other investments that your investors could have put their money in.

Now of course, given that we have finite resources, this can't keep up forever, or even for very long. But as long as there was room to expand (earth's population is still growing so some say there's still room to expand) that's what we ended up with.

Re:So, the system works?

[Graymalkin]

Investors want a return on their money. Built into growth expectations are things like capital depreciation and inflation. A dollar loses about 2% of its buying power every year so $1,000 sitting in a mayonnaise jar under your bed is only worth $980 next year and $960 the next year. If you give that mayonnaise jar to a business (investing) with no profit planned they would hand you back $1,000 in five years that only had about $900 worth of buying power. To simply pay you back what you invested them the business needs to grow at least 2% per year. In order to give more money back to investors as a reward for them investing the business needs to grow somewhere north of 2% every year. Even an entirely private company needs to grow somewhere above the inflation rate just to be able to give their employees cost of living pay increases, ignoring entirely giving them actual raises to keep them from leaving the company. If someone's paycheck stays stagnant for five years they have about 10% less buying power than when they started working.

Re:So, the system works?

[Anonymous Coward]

But then, I live in New York City, so, well, the real world here is rather sub-par.

I gave you a mod point for this.

Re:So, the system works?

[Duradin]

The rise of Wal-Mart is a sign that when people are exposed to the Sam Vimes theory of boots they don't go "wow, you can save money by being rich by being able to buy the $50 boots that last ten times longer" and instead go "wow, you can buy boots for $10".

Re:So, the system works?

[Anonymous Coward]

For starters, because there are no growing areas for you to move up-and-coming people into. Your attractiveness as an employer goes to shit, since people know that there will never be a better job than what they have now unless someone dies or leaves.

Secondly, because costs aren't stable. Growth gives you some wiggle room to ride out the inevitable mistakes and oversights as suppliers raise prices here and there. Utility companies start charging more. Inflation, etc.

Next, you have the fact that most markets are not stable. The customer traffic patterns that worked well last year are completely screwed this year, thanks to the constant pressure of your competition doing their damnedest to take all of your customers and make them their own.

Lack of growth means stagnancy. It means a lack of capacity for change, in an ever changing world. It means slow death as everyone else leaves you behind.

Do you understand now?

Re:So, the system works?

[Pojut]

That's the problem...it's a race to the top, only to turn around and become a race to the bottom once your growth is essentially maxed out.

Re:So, the system works?

[natehoy]

I like having local stores, too. Unfortunately, not enough people do, and they're all gone around here.

Wal-Mart, Best Buy, Radio Shack, and mail order. That's it for electronics stores around here. And I include Radio Shack only because of fond memories of what they used to be, not because they are a useful electronics store.

Borders. That's our local bookstore now. We used to have three of them. And Borders is now saying that they are having trouble because everyone buys their books at Amazon because it's cheaper, so we're likely to lose our only bookstore for 20 miles in any direction.

We used to have three hardware stores. Now there's one local one left, and they just got bought out by a big chain who intends to close them, so it's Lowes or Home Depot now.

There used to be four local stores you could go into to buy toys. One specialized in quality toys, like wood toys and durable stuff. Now, it's Target or Wal-Mart, and both carry such complete shit for toys that I took up carving so my daughter could have half-decent toys, and we have to mail-order most of the rest.

That points directly back to the issue raised by the article. Local stores cannot compete if the focus is solely on price.

Re:So, the system works?

[Anonymous Coward]

Of note, "buying local" doesn't just mean "don't buy online". It really means "buy from locally owned and operated stores, not from the Mega! Mart! Brand! you see in every town.

Re:So, the system works?

[delinear]

I can only assume such stores continue to survive because people like the assurance of a physical place they can go complain if/when something breaks on their expensive new gadget. One day some bean counter will realise they can save a fortune by routing all customer service issues through a phone line or internet service and it will be the death of big electronics stores. After all, if I need to buy a cable in an emergency and pay five times the internet price for the privilege, I can already do that in most supermarkets.

Re:So, the system works?

[ottothecow]

I don't know if you have amazon prime down under...but we do up in the US (free 2-day shipping on everything...in my area orders almost always arrive next day if you order before 2-3PM).

At that point...I could really see the advantage of going to try an item on in a store, seeing which size fits, scanning the barcode into amazon and having it show up in my office the next day (its not like I was going to wear it out of the store 99 times out of 100).

This is abusive of the retailers since I would expect that some of the markup is paying for the fact that they have a retail storefront where I can see/touch/try the goods without having to worry about return shipping--how long until a store tries charging for entry to the changing rooms?

Re:So, the system works?

[AltairDusk]

Step 2a: Customers get angry at your arrogant and invasive measures.

Step 2b: Protests and bad publicity for your company.

Step 2c: Sued for illegally intercepting their mobile traffic.

Step 3 may not be as much profit as you're hoping.

Re:So, the system works?

[gtall]

One thing I've noticed from Wally World is that some brand name items have less to them than what looks like the same item in other stores. I first noticed it in paper towels. The brand I buy had a cheaper price at Wally World, but there was less of it in a similar package as another store. Once I noticed this, I saw it in other items too.

Re:So, the system works?

[scourfish]

When I lived in Ohio, the town next to me, Brimfield (Brimtucky was the colloquial term, though,) was a rural town with very little going for it in terms of an economy. A Walmart was built, and then right after that, several small shops opened up around the Walmart. Walmart did not, in this case, drive out small business.

The people in my hometown petitioned to prevent it from being built there, and when it was built a town over, no small businesses closed down, the same people in my town who protested the place's construction now shop there, and instead Brimtucky recieves the tax revenue.

Re:So, the system works?

[AltairDusk]

I feel bad for the actual good salesman that provide correct info and *gasp* help the customer find what he wants. There are so few of them and idiots like the guy you dealt with give them all a bad rep.

Re:So, the system works?

[jfengel]

Did you go to that store to look at the TV?

The downside to Amazon is that you don't get to examine the merchandise. The scariest case for a merchant is that they spend a huge some of money on a retail space and knowledgeable employees to convince you to buy, but the actual profit goes to Amazon. Or to the big-box store with an unpleasant shopping environment and minimum-wage drones that make less impact on the actual sale itself.

The $1,500 markup is an extreme case, but it's hard to say what a "reasonable" profit is. If the markup had been $500, they may have been making only marginal profits. You're clearly talking about a very high-end product, of which they sell only a few per month. It's not difficult for rent in a highly-visible place to run $10,000 a month. Real salesmen cost more than minimum-wage drones. $500 markup could be just breaking even.

I haven't got an answer. I can just point out the implicit contract: they agree to keep profits reasonable, and customers agree to buy where they shop. Customers may not be accurately about to judge the former part, and so feel free to break the latter. The net result is no store at all.

Re:So, the system works?

[Anonymous Coward]

you know, south of the Manson-Nixon

FTFY.

Re:So, the system works?

[AltairDusk]

Sorry, that should be *salesmen* not *salesman*, not sure how I missed that in the preview.

Re:So, the system works?

[mark72005]

Harleys have a market that is entirely separate from the rest of the motorcycle market. There are generally no reasons to explain why someone who bought a Harley did so. They just do it because they think HD is "the real thing". It's hilarious to hear a group of them talk about how they much they spent on a big, slow, unreliable bike. The purchases all rest on "the tradition", "the feel", "the prestige", etc... nothing with any basis in reality.

Now, you'll hear them retort today about how reliability is much better than it used to be, and it has gotten better, but it's still nowhere near that of basically any other brand. They are intentionally using an antiquated engine design with 1950s tech and marketing like anything more advanced "ain't shit". I mean, they are still air cooled for goodness sake...

HD is the greatest case of drone marketing in world history. They have a militant user base willing to pay a premium price for a product that is inferior in every quantifiable way. Not only this, but they spend trillions on cheap chinese trinkets just because they carry the logo.

It's not like the premium clothing outlets where the product is better, but not in proportion to the price. It's even greater than that.

Re:So, the system works?

[Pojut]

Do you understand now?

Somewhat...but why do "growth" and "adaptability" go hand in hand? If I run a nimble company, and manage to keep up with market trends while simultaneously staying the same size or growing a little, why is it considered bad if I don't grow a lot? So long as I'm not shrinking, my business is still technically posting a profit; I'm still making money. I'm not making as much money as someone thinks I should, but I still am.

Market expectations seem unrealistic, if companies are going to maintain good service/good products at a decent price. Or maybe I'm just nuckin' futs :p

Re:So, the system works?

[ShakaUVM]

>>Exactly, I just willingly paid $50 more at a brick-and-mortar plumbing supply place for a specific toilet that was cheaper online.

Ditto. I've put together several computers piecemeal from parts ordered from Newegg, and from Frys. Almost without exception, one part of the system is broken or not working right. With a Frys down the street, I can replace the part and have the box rebuilt and operational within the hour. With Newegg, you have to go through a week-long RMA process.

I willingly pay a surcharge to buy locally any product I care enough about returns on.

Re:So, the system works?

[DogDude]

I agree. The thing is, by the time it takes for a single company to become that large, either the owners sell out, or more unscrupulous family members take over. A single business can maintain integrity (while growing) only as long as that one owner can live. Ben & Jerry's was an incredible, and incredibly profitable company until they sold out to the massive international conglomerate, Unilever. The same can be said of lots of companies.

Re:So, the system works?

[maxume]

As others have pointed out, the expectations are not arbitrary (they are based on past performance and analysis of likely future performance) and the present price of the stock will tend to reflect those expectations, so when new information becomes available the price of the stock changes to reflect new expectations.

So the problem isn't that the market is disregarding the success, it is that they (apparently) had higher expectations of success. It's almost a word game, but the market isn't punishing the company for failure, they are revising their percieved value of the company based on new information. Anyone choosing to invest in stocks should bear such things in mind, it is reality.

Re:So, the system works?

[BrokenHalo]

I don't know if you have amazon prime down under...but we do up in the US (free 2-day shipping on everything...

Nope. That would be an unspeakable luxury here, where shipping tends to comprise the largest part of the total bill, and nobody is breathing a word about changing that.

how long until a store tries charging for entry to the changing rooms?

I guess they might try that, but not for long if they want to stay in business. In my case, I would simply drop whatever goods I was holding on to the floor, turn on my heel and walk straight out of the shop.

Re:So, the system works?

[AltairDusk]

This isn't always the case though. I have gone through hell trying to make a return at the local Best Buy before whereas every time I've needed to make a return to Newegg it's been completely painless. In fact I once had a Radeon 9700 All In Wonder arrive DOA, after returning it to Newegg I get an email stating they were out of stock and was it acceptable if they shipped me a 9800 AIW instead. Needless to say I've been hard pressed to find any brick and mortar chain with service that good (some of the mom and pop shops on the other hand have excellent service).

Re:So, the system works?

[donweel]

I agree, once the race to the bottom starts it can only result in lack of quality. I remember going to the Woodwards store, in my neighborhood. You paid a little more but only top quality items and extra service where what you got. And if you where not satisfied you could return the product. Groceries where delivered by conveyor belt to a station where you could drive up and they where loaded in your trunk for you. The hardware department had all the quality tools and a variety of fasteners you could buy individually no display packs. There where benches for the old timers to hang out and a malt shop for the kids. The dollar stores put them out of business. And to make matters worse foreign business people tried to buy their name to use on cheap dollar store imitations. When the Woodwards family declined this they continued with cheap knockoffs like Woodwinds, etc. Sure you can save a little money here and there but surely quality must have some meaning, quality of product, and quality of life. The last Landmark Woodwards building was used by squatters and for Raves etc, I think was recently converted to some kind of apartment complex.. yay .. Hudson's Bay next stop.

Re:So, the system works?

[Abcd1234]

References? Sounds like an interesting topic.

Incidentally, here's an email from Geoff Watts, owner and coffee buyer for Intelligentsia Coffee (nom nom). They employ what they call a "direct trade" model of coffee buying, whereby they have a direct, very close relationship with their suppliers. In it, he discusses some of the issues he sees in the Fair Trade model, though none of them touch on your rather extreme claims (in fact, he specifically states that FT kept many farmers alive during the crisis years between 1999 and 2004, when the market price for coffee plummeted).

Re:So, the system works?

[AltairDusk]

I'd spend just to get rid of the CRT. Apparently most people can't hear it but I haven't seen a CRT TV yet that doesn't make a horrifically annoying high pitched whine when it's turned on. One of my friends had a 32" that I could hear when he had left it on (nothing actually playing so no sound) from out in the hall with his dorm room door shut the whine was so loud.

Re:So, the system works?

[pleasegetreal]

So what's stopping you?

Re:So, the system works?

[AltairDusk]

If I had a friendly local game store I might do the same. However the local Gamestop is anything but friendly and I dislike their used game practices (they will give you $5 for a game then put it on the shelf for $35, while I don't deny they need to turn a profit they're basically exploiting the trade in customers at those prices).

Re:So, the system works?

[Opportunist]

You are aware that this will lead to huge stores without any qualified personnel being your only source of goods in the long run, yes?

If price is your only measuring stick for whether you want to buy in a shop, this is essentially what you'll end up. You won't have restaurants with nice atmosphere and better food. You'll have fast food dumps. And the same is true for all other shops, you won't have a shop where you get information and honest recommendations (instead of "buy this because our margin is the biggest with that junk"), you'll get outlets with people who could just as well flip burgers or hand out leaflets instead of working as store clerks.

Yes, believe it or not, but there are people who enjoy shopping at places where the people working there actually KNOW what they're selling. I enjoy being able to call my computer store, tell them what a machine needs to be able to do and get that instead of first of all having to dig through a few pages telling me just what processors, mainboard and rams exist these days and how they coexist (if at all), then dig through review pages to see which manufacturers actually deliver what they promise and then puzzle together a set. And no, Dell, IBM and HP are NOT an option for me since I rarely need a computer off the shelf, I especially do not need their billion "card readers" and whatever options they got. I have sometimes rather bizarre requirements.

I'm aware that I alone can't keep a shop afloat, but these shops will eventually cease to exist. Because, yes, they're more expensive than those outlet-type shops. They have to hire people who know their stuff and these people tend to cost money. I am aware of that and I'm willing to pay for that. It's WAY cheaper for me to spend an extra 100 bucks on a machine than to spend 6-10 hours digging through information, only to hope and wonder whether I made the right decision. I prefer to shift that problem to the shop. If THEY make the wrong decision and the machine does not work to spec, I throw it back at them and it's THEIR problem!

So I guess I'll be losing in this game. Too bad. I hope someone will make it his business to build machines. Maybe on the side or something. I'd pay for it.

Re:So, the system works?

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, you think that's "other options"?

Re:So, the system works?

[Opportunist]

The answer is honest customers dealing with honest businessmen. The latter do exist. They get fewer and fewer because they have to shut down (with the increasing lack of honest customers) but they still exist.

One of the dishonesties that run rampart these days is what you identified already: Getting info in your local store, then going online and buying what they recommend cheaper. You essentially cheat the businessman that way. He gave you a service, his expertise, and his price reflects that. I bet it's only a matter of time until stores will have to start charging for giving you information on some sort of "rebate if you buy here" base. I.e. you pay for his expertise, and you get refunded if you actually buy in his store.

Sad. But I'd support such a system.

Re:So, the system works?

[AltairDusk]

Lowest price isn't the only qualification for a happy customer, but it is the only criteria on the Internet.

It is? I can recall quite a few occasions where I've paid a bit more for something online to get it from a site I've had a good experience with and I know won't give me the run around if something is wrong with the order. A common example of this for me is Newegg, quite often I can find the part a bit cheaper somewhere else but unless the difference is quite significant I'd rather order it from the Egg. I've dealt with their customer service in the past and I know if I have any problems they will put a good bit of effort into making things right.

Re:So, the system works?

[Opportunist]

The difference is that you can actually SEE that the goods are damaged at the time you pick them up, before you'd actually buy them. You can avoid taking an item that has been damaged or removed from its wrapping and instead get one that hasn't.

With delivery services, you already paid and bought the item, essentially the deal's been closed. You can now try to return it and exchange it for an undamaged good, i.e. send it back, wait for the new item to arrive and hope it ain't damaged.

Re:So, the system works?

[Phoobarnvaz]

Additionally, the smartphone apps are probably shedding the light on the fact that stores other than Wal-Mart often have a better price on many items. That is something I had observed in comparing prices on groceries when a Super-Center threatened the existence of the local grocery stores in the town in which I previously lived. Just because a store says it always has the low price in its advertisement, it doesn't make it true.

Discovered this the other day while shopping at Wal-Mart for a few grocery items they sell that have better quality than at other stores I frequent. Buying a bag of Cheetos for $2...I thought I had a bargain. That was until I got to WinCo and found the same bag for $1.68. Going over to CostCo...found a giant box of chips would've been cheaper than anything Wal-Mart had for sell for the same quantity.

Anymore...I do everything I can do to keep from shopping at Wal-Mart (except for specialty items I like that no one else sells)...such as thrift stores and almost any other grocery store but them...because they don't have the lowest price...the best selection or even the item I'm looking for. Not only that...but when I see the Assistant Manager running the register I'm at and he can't get other employees to take over for him because they won't answer his page from being busy...something is terribly wrong at the "lowest price leader".

Re:So, the system works?

[Opportunist]

Interesting. It's quite the opposite here.

We have two VATs in existance. One "common" one for all goods and a "reduced" one (pretty much half VAT) for some others. The idea of the reduced VAT is that there are certain goods of everyday need that you should not be taxed heavily on, to make living affordable. Hence that reduced VAT applies generally to food and rent.

And to books.

Don't ask me why, but books are apparently seen as essential for your living.

Re:So, the system works?

[Anonymous Coward]

Spoken as someone who's never driven a Corvette... it's selling point isn't that it's American, but that it gives you a Ferrari-like performance at less than half the price. It's one of the cheapest supercars on the market. On the world stage, the price difference is negated by import tariffs which in some countries are more than the cost of the car, thus negating the cost appeal - if I had to chose between a Corvette and Ferrari for the same cost, this would be a no-brainer.

Just nitpicking ;)

Re:So, the system works?

[hajus]

Actually, I have found UPS to have worse service where I live than anything else I've had deliveries from. Their comments on their tracking system have included blatant lies. For example, putting in comments that I called and corrected an address, when I had only rescheduled a new delivery time or agents telling me conflicting information. I would actually be extremely happy if amazon.ca switched their deliveries here from UPS to even the post office as UPS is the primary reason I hesitate from ordering from them.

Re:So, the system works?

[Bassman59]

Hardware stores of the traditional sort are precisely the places customer service can be used to make a business profitable.

Our local hardware store (Wally's Hardware, Sumter, SC) in next to a Walmart and a Lowes. Instead of being crushed, it benefits from the traffic they generate.

Better selection of hardware ("choice" matters more than bulky displays), immediate greeting by people who actually know something about what they sell, and a friendly atmosphere allow it to thrive under the footprint of bigger retailers. ++ for the stainless and other fastener selection.

I don't work there, just a satisfied customer for more than 20 years.

I realize that they're a national chain, too, but we ALWAYS go to our local Ace Hardware store first for supplies for our endless home-repair projects. We go to Lowe's or the Despot only if Ace doesn't have what we need.

Re:So, the system works?

[radish]

Amazon, Newegg, ZipZoomFly. There's no reason to ever look anywhere else IMHO. Excellent service and prices from all three. TigerDirect and Buy.com are on the avoid list.

Re:So, the system works?

[ottothecow]

Oh it would certainly suck...but I can see some shop wanting to stop people from using them as a physical playground for an online discounter (whether it be by jamming phone service or charging for physical access or something else).

At the same time, I often find myself wishing I had a smart phone when I am in a thrift store...I'll come across some vintage item that looks interesting but I can't remember if it was made by XYZ awesome company or by the similarly named company that made inferior knockoffs. With a smartphone, I could do a quick google and discover "oh this is an awesome item...it just needs a new part which can be found on ebay for $5" or "oh, these guys made cheap knockoffs of the real thing...if its broken, it is probably not repairable)". In that case, I suppose the smart phone use would benefit the store as I would be more likely to purchase.

Re:So, the system works?

[hymie!]

http://consumerist.com/2010/12/store-charges-20-fee-if-you-try-but-dont-buy-its-shoes.html

Re:So, the system works?

[apoc.famine]

Fortunately most american shoppers are horribly shallow and dont care most about price but trendyness..

In part, but I saw another side to this where I grew up. In rural areas, most mom & pop stores have pretty thin margins. They can't see a loss of 10% of their revenue. Walmart shows up, and is reviled by 90% of the population. Still, even a 90% loyalty rate isn't enough to keep those small stores in business. Once they are gone, it's another part of the company Walmartized.

Re:So, the system works?

[Z00L00K]

I think that the retailers has to provide an added value to the customer when a purchase is made.

That's not something that can be provided by an online store.

If the retailer do have a good support and handles the customers well when it comes to warranty replacements and returns then they can save the customer a lot of headache. A customer that has friendly thoughts about a retailer and the retailer provides small things like free coffee to the customer while he/she is browsing then it may make the customer more prone to buy the item at that store.

And for tech items like TV sets - use competent personnel that can help the customer to decide the right model.

One thing that really bugs me is that every retailer asks the customer for a membership card (or similar). It really annoys me, and if customers with a card gets rebate but I'm just a temporary customer that happens to be in that shop for some reason - then I'm seen as a second grade customer. Treat all customers alike - and well and you don't have to worry about membership benefits and so on.

Re:So, the system works?

[Phoobarnvaz]

Of course... sometimes the markup is too high. I really wanted to buy a TV locally, but they "don't price match amazon," which means that the same TV at amazon was $1500 less... you've got to at least make the same ballpark.

Used to work at a computer store which ordered from NewEgg and Amazon at least twice a day. Having noticed that the owner was putting a minimum 35-60% markup on these items...I lost my job when I was overheard telling a customer who couldn't believe the prices that we ordered from those two online places. They thanked me and my a$$hole of a manager reamed me in front of the other employees. Ended up walking out later that day.

There was a golden lining to this though. Saw that same a$$hole working as a salesperson in a store which was closing two weeks later. Too bad my reaming lasted a few minutes...but his ended up lasting over and over...since I've heard he's been out of work and lost his house two years ago. Couldn't have happened to a better guy.

Re:So, the system works?

[Anonymous Coward]

I own a Corvette and I challenge you to find me a car that performs like a Corvette for the money. You may find a more luxurious car or one with better utility but for the $$ there isn't a competitor in the performance arena. That said, I do agree with your premise. Americans are guillable. They think WalMart is cheaper when, in fact, some products are more expensive then the local grocery store. They (WalMart) are playing the odds that once there, you will buy the more expensive items while still thinking you are getting a bargain. I prefer to shop somewhere with fewer mouth-breathing, sweat pant wearing morons and am happy to pay a bit of a premium to do so.

Re:So, the system works?

[Duradin]

And their demand is making the other makers play the "me too" game.

Why anyone would want a V-twin shakemonster over a smooth-as-glass boxer engine is beyond me, but apparently enough people want the rumble so Honda dropped the Valkyrie for the VTX.

Re:So, the system works?

[Anonymous Coward]

Business is a race with no finish line, and no winners. It's not enough to just keep moving forward. You need to keep up with the pack cause you can always fall behind enough to guarantee a loss.

Re:So, the system works?

[Eponymous Coward]

Nope. But in this situation, the local book store has some serious advantages. First, the shopper is in the store. Chances are, they want to leave with something. Second, the condition of the book at the store is known whereas the on-line supplier is more of a gamble. Third, a good book shop will have a knowledgeable and friendly staff who can help the shopper and clinch the sale.

Books are inexpensive enough (well, not textbooks) that they are easy impulse buys for lots of people. If Starbucks can get a premium price for coffee, a book store should be able to do the same.

Re:So, the system works?

[rjstanford]

As long as you don't look at the interior - or compare it only to that of the C5, which was itself far better than the C4, but far worse than a Hyundai Elantra of comparable vintage (and yes, I owned both an Elantra and a C5 from 2001).

Re:So, the system works?

[Anonymous Coward]

Spoken as someone who's never driven a Corvette

I've driven several different vets; including different years and models.

The rest of your post is equally nonsensical.

Re:So, the system works?

[Anonymous Coward]

Please tell me you're being funny. This is why I can never leave NYC.

Re:So, the system works?

[DerekLyons]

I'm not saying we should regulate the hell out of everything but I really miss having other options when I shop.

In the city to which I'm currently residing in Kentucky (you know, south of the Mason-Dixon, where all of those gun-toting conservatives people love to make fun of so much) there is a Walmart, at least 2 Meijers, several Kroger's, a bunch of specialty ethnic stores, a whole foods type co-op, along with both chain electronics stores and several specialty shops all over the place. "Other options" are doing just fine.

Not really. What you have is the illusion of other options - as the other chains have long since adopted Walmart's predatory pricing and shoddy merchandise.

Re:So, the system works?

[PIBM]

Delay from the time he decides he wants something and when he'll receive it; most of the time I believe that the shopper who look up the prices for something he wants will look at other nearby stores to which he can get to for what seems to him a lower amount of money than the money he will be saving.

Re:So, the system works?

[Duradin]

And by boxer I mean horizontally-opposed. Not that /. is full of pedants...

Re:So, the system works?

[rjstanford]

Hmm. Perhaps you could call it Target?

Re:So, the system works?

[Belial6]

I found the same thing at Costco when it came to price. Many things are a lot cheaper, but Bread for example, wasn't the last time I checked. The price of a loaf of bread at Costco was ~20% higher than at Safeway, AND you had to buy two loafs at a time.

Re:So, the system works?

[TheRaven64]

That doesn't really apply to most retailers, because they are selling goods made by some other wholesaler. This means that it is possible to buy exactly the same thing elsewhere, with price and convenience being the two major differentiators. There is no difference between a copy of a book that I buy in any two shops (unless it's damaged or second hand in one of them).

Re:So, the system works?

[Anonymous Coward]

On the world stage, the Corvette is generally considered a crap, plastic car. It sells well in the US because of its American heritage and perceived prestige.

What? Name a brand new sports car car that delivers the performance of the C6 Corvette for the same money.

Re:So, the system works?

[__aamnbm3774]

Good point...Best Buy is certainly an exception to a mom and pop store.

Re:So, the system works?

[rjstanford]

You missed the key part of the theory - that the rich person spends $50 for boots that last for 12 years, during which time the poor person has spent $120 ($10 per year) and has still had wet feet the whole time.

Italics approximate the original.

Re:So, the system works?

[eudas]

You know, I had a salesperson at Best Buy try to charge me a higher price than what was marked on an item as well, until I spoke up and made them correct it. I wonder if this is a standard practice at Best Buy now...

Re:So, the system works?

[mdarksbane]

The TV was $2000 from amazon, and worth every penny, for all that we don't watch that much TV. Football games are almost better than being there, and the resolution is high enough to use it as another monitor. I spend money on things I will use and get that much enjoyment out of.

Unless you live in a hut somewhere with dirt floors, I'm sure you have something you've spent money on that I'd disapprove of, so don't be a dick.

Re:So, the system works?

[GooberToo]

C6 yes it was a plastic piece of shit.

Personally known two owners of C6's who had to have their cars repainted because the plastic flexed so much, the paint spidered.

And none of that changes that on the world stage, the world largely considers the Vet to be a cheap, plastic car.

Ya, sorry this offends some sensibilities. I like vetts, but in a global market (the US is not the world) they are not the cat's meow as vett owners would have you believe.

Re:So, the system works?

[mdarksbane]

Oh, there's definitely a number somewhere. But for an almost 2x difference in cost, I'd rather deal with not seeing the TV in person (since the way they have the color settings done, you're mostly going off of reviews anyway) and pocket the difference if that's the only choice.

Re:So, the system works?

[chocolatetrumpet]

Wal-Mart's secret to success is that they most efficiently communicate actual buyer behavior back to manufacturers

They also have an amazing fully automated electronic just-in-time shipment and stocking system and a powerful brand. They're a stalwart of sales process engineering.

That said, I'd be happy to pay more if I knew the floor employees and floor manufacturing workers were the ones getting the money.

Re:So, the system works?

[theaveng]

Yeah I too noticed that amazon (US) packaging went downhill. They used to put all the books inside shrinkwrap to protect them, but lately it seems they got lazy and just tossed them inside the box. Or if the book is shrinkwrapped, they are careless and bend a corner. I've been giving Amazon "1 star" on their packaging feedback.

As for brick stores:
- Last year when the economy was dumping, I was able to get some really good deals from JCPenney like $11 Arizona jeans, $5 sweaters, and $15 Rockports. BUT for the most part shopping in a brick store is a waste of cash. You waste money on gasoline, you waste time on traveling there, and the prices are almost double the same price on Amazon.com or Ebay.com.

This year I spent about $200 on christmas presents (videogames) ALL online, and all finished in just one day (sunday). Plus average cost was just $11-12 per game.

Re:So, the system works?

[bluefoxlucid]

it's because most buyers only buy cheap products at low prices and don't see any reason to trade up, that's a problem with manufacturer branding or value propositions though.

I pay $20 for 3 pairs of socks and I have lost a few and had to buy more... after 2 years. The old ones are slightly yellowed, but otherwise identical to the brand new ones.

After 2 months, Wal-Mart $6 for 8 pair socks all have holes in them and I need to spend another $6 for 8 pair, or wear something that's falling apart and pounded flat but wasn't really fluffy and luxurious to begin with anyway... you know when they show poor people on TV and cartoons and they're wearing falling apart shoes and their socks have holes in them? That's what a Wal-Mart sock looks like after 2 months.

If I don't lose the shit, $20 for 3 pair is actually a good deal. But this took a $20 investment on 3 pair of socks to find out, which is not attractive to a lot of people-- as you said, value proposition, socks are cheap. It's the same with cotton undershirts (the $20 for 3 white undershirts I get are not itchy; fruit of the loom undershirts itch like fuck, they're almost papery).

The secret to success here is the razor and blade model, really, but without the razor. People won't switch from a Mach 3 with $20 8 packs of blades to a Merkur that you spend $35 for 100 blades for. The Merkur HD long handle is a $40 razor; you need a $20 brush for it and then pucks of shave soap that cost $5-$10 each and last several months (my $10 puck of Tabac lasted almost a year). The initial investment of $60-$80 is too much for most people when they can get a Mach 3 for $10 and then spend $20 a month on blades forever. Similarly, people will spend $18 on shirts that they have to throw away after 6 months-- sure you can wear the tattered, worn crap... unless you have a bizcas dresscode office job. And bizcas office people shop at walmart too--some of them make $20k/year, some make $60k/year, even at $100k/year they might not see the point in "wasting money."

I'll never understand how people can make $100k/year and still buy $60 tires, though. And cheap, crap-quality food when you can get so much better without spending $300/meal.

Re:So, the system works?

[jpstanle]

I agree with your sentiment, but you used a couple bad examples. You've got the Corvette all wrong in particular.

The Corvette is considered crap on the world stage simply because American sports cars carry a stigma internationally. A much better car can be had for the money? The modern C5 and C6 Corvettes are considered some of the best values in the sports car world. They offer near-supercar level performance rivaling that of $150-200k European cars for a measly $50-60k. Not to mention the Corvette has a tremendous racing pedigree; the C5 and C6 Corvettes are some of the most successful cars in the history of international road racing.

Does the Corvette suffer from a lack of polish and build quality? Sure, but considering the price-performance return of a Corvette, you can't expect it to be upholstered with the skin from an endangered species or something.

There are plenty of examples of your initial sentiment, but I assure you the Corvette is not one of them.

Re:So, the system works?

[delinear]

I have to say I've had no issues with getting replacement items - in fact, I've only ever had one item fail to turn up and Amazon sent me a replacement (a pad for the XBOX). However, three or four times after that at an interval of maybe a month to six weeks they emailed me asking me to fill out some form verifying that the goods had not arrived. That I found incredibly annoying. If the goods had arrived, I would have contacted them to have the duplicate returned, I don't need some automated system chasing me up. Moreover I felt I had to fill out the form or they'd assume I'd stolen the duplicate and do some kind of follow up, it felt like I was being treated like a crime suspect rather than a valued customer. The only other issue was with their courier continually ignoring instructions not to leave packages on the doorstep or with them leaving packages with neighbours without letting us know which ones - but yes, more a courier issue than an Amazon issue (albeit they hired the courier).

Re:So, the system works?

[mdarksbane]

I so wholeheartedly agree.

I hate shopping and I hate dealing with people. But when you get that rare combination of good service and knowledge that an expert salesman provides, it's an entirely different experience.

Don't rush the shopper. Let them come to you, but be ready for them. Listen to what their needs are, and know enough about the products to articulate what the tradeoffs are for the options that might make sense to them. Never judge their decision.

The only places I ever see service like that are really specialty shops where you know the guy is working there because he geeks out about it. Guitar shops, gun shops, computer shops, hiking gear shops - hobbies that the salespeople do for fun themselves and are really passionate about. Of course, that isn't enough by itself, but it can make a big difference.

Re:So, the system works?

[Dr. Spork]

Agreed. Specifically Newegg is basically the one retailer that I will willingly vouch for. I have years of experience with them, and I've never been ripped of or mistreated. Occasionally when I have to be in the mall, I'll sneak off to browse in Best Buy (it's next to a big shoe store, if you catch my drift), and when the sales people bug me there, I always think to myself "yeah, right, like I'll buy this crap at these prices!"

Re:So, the system works?

[GooberToo]

You sound like me! I couldn't agree more with everything you said!

Re:So, the system works?

[rjstanford]

Have you ever had an Amazon shipment not show up? It's horrendous trying to get your money back (or a new set of items). Amazon blames UPS, UPS blames Amazon. It sucks hard. It takes weeks beyond what you wanted to wait.

Hmm. Not sure about this one. Did you get a tracking number? If not, then its Amazon's fault (they should be able to provide you with one). If so, and if UPS's systems show that they never received or processed it, its Amazon's fault (again). If it shows that UPS received it but did not deliver it, its UPSs fault. If it shows that UPS delivered it but it wasn't at your house when you got home... maybe you should have had it shipped somewhere else?

Making sure you're placing blame where it belongs is important. Luckily, both parties in this have lots and lots of visibility into the process.

Re:So, the system works?

[chocolatetrumpet]

If you have money to invest, you are going to be looking for the best return on your capital, modulo the risk of the investment.

This assumes an "informed consumer" which is rarely the case. How much do you think investors and consumers know about the products they invest in and buy?

How do you think it should work?

As a society we need to begin examining long term, sustainable, healthy ways to live. We can either educate people to the point where they can make these sort of informed decisions, or we can muck with the system so that the cost of products more accurately reflects their long term total utility, including their end-of-life reuse, re-manufacture, or disposal.

Re:So, the system works?

[Anonymous Coward]

Harleys, you bet, expensive not terribly good bike. The corvette however, IS a performance bargain, not a great "quality" car but
in sheer performance per dollar it's pretty hard to beat. They are also pretty reliable, I used to think BMW were good cars till I bought one.
Staggeringly unreliable, and not better than the Japanese stuff for sure. However nobody wants to admit that it was a bad purchase because.
1. You feel like an idiot.
2. You sound like a picky whiner if you admit to being an idiot.
so it's lode -lose, so you tell people how great the car is and everybody continues to believe they are worth the premium.

Re:So, the system works?

[Anonymous Coward]

You're confusing "Publicly-traded stock companies with hordes of greedy investors to please" with small businesses. Seperate "Market" as investors from "market" as in your customers.
 
At least for the USA, small businesses are +50% of the entire economy. For the C-stock companies, we're going to ignore them for the sake of this conversation. They behave in a nutty fashion, since they have to respond to the whims of the investors. Let's focus instead on small business, the sort of thing that you could own personally.

So let's take this from the point of view of a theoretical you who owns your own business with let's say 6 brick and mortar locations. A huge problem for you is going to be the first point I mentioned - a lack of visible growth is going to destroy your ability to hire and retain competent managers. You need to be growing revenue year after year to hold your profit steady while keeping pace with raises and inflation. And then you still have the personnel problem - People take time to train. If an opportunity comes up for you to grow into an area you need someone available to be immediately moved into position. A different person from a whithering area may not be a good fit for the new change. Wasting time looking for 4 months for someone to hire and then wait for 6 months for them get up to speed will destroy most opportunities.

Let's change gear to explore adaptability further - Your hypothetical business will be ... a programming shop. You're keeping up with trends, but you don't immediately see the application of mobile devices in your main product so you don't explore it. One day, one of your customers suggests the forehead-slappingly obvious adaptation of your product into the mobile space. How long will it take to get a production team up to speed quick enough to put out a decent quality offering? How much vulnerability are you exposed to from your competitors during this time?

Or, change the industry and scenario if you'd like. I'd be happy to talk on retail or shipping or manufacturing, whatever. I only ask that you keep in mind that you're human, so you need to explore scenarios that include you making a crap ton of mistakes - just like everyone else.

Re:So, the system works?

[GooberToo]

I agree with your sentiment, but you used a couple bad examples.

Couple? I'll grant you my vet example is controversial but the Harley example absolutely is not. The raw facts on it are absolutely clear. Harleys are completely pieces of shit largely purchased by ignorant owners who do so for the sole purpose of owning a label on which they feel they can brag.

You're also forgetting that in the US, you pay very high tariffs on imports and no tariffs on a vet. The inverse is true in other countries. Case in point, I just spoke to a buddy, who is currently out of the country, where you too can own a Camero for only ~$90,000USD. I didn't even ask about the price of a vet and frankly, I doubt he even checked after that eye opener. As I originally stated, ON THE WORLD STAGE, the vet is widely considered a cheap, plastic car.

For whatever reason, Americans believe they are the world stage. In all the replies, save one, it seems pretty clear that's their belief. Which doesn't really invalidate my position in the least.

Re:So, the system works?

[mark72005]

I think the primary reason is that they don't want any other midlife crisis sufferer to say "it ain't a harley".

Re:So, the system works?

[delinear]

It feels less crap when it's the same store. I wouldn't have any problem with going into an electrical retailer, getting information on a product, then buying it online from their website - the way I see it they should be offering me the same price anyway when I've made the effort to trudge down there and stand in front of one of their staff while they try and upsell me on everything. One store refused to give any kind of discount for two big ticket items purchased together (even though I used to work technical support for them and know for a fact that they can always authorise up to 10% discount without even speaking to a manager - it just comes out of their commission so they don't like doing it), not only did I find the same items on their own website cheaper, I also noticed they price match on the website and found it still cheaper elsewhere and got them to match the price so I ended up saving something like 25% on the store price. Not only that, the website took away my old appliances for free (the store charged a fee for the service), so I saved another £15 there, and to add insult to injury, the items were delivered and the old items taken away by the very same store who refused to budge on price. I didn't feel at all crap about that!

On the other hand I think if you go into a store and get them to spend time and effort explaining a product, only to then go buy it cheaper online, that's a bit low. I was in HMV a few weekends ago and a couple held up the line (when it was really busy already) for 20 minutes getting about forty used games and a couple of consoles scanned and priced up for trade-in, and after all that they didn't go through with the deal, just took a note of the prices (actually they made the guy turn his screen around so they could photograph the prices and take them away) and went off elsewhere to compare them. That's a pretty mean thing to do, not only wasting the time of the people serving in the store but of all the people in the queue behind them, too.

Re:So, the system works?

[Anonymous Coward]

As an example, let's look at Corvettes and Harleys. On the world stage, the Corvette is generally considered a crap, plastic car. It sells well in the US because of its American heritage and perceived prestige. The reality is, a much, much better car can be had for the money.

The Corvette example merely represents equally illogical anti-American sentiment. The Corvette is basically an entry-level performance vehicle. It's fully capable of racing, and can be had for about the price of a family sedan. (And it's less likely to get you killed than a Lotus)

Re:So, the system works?

[GooberToo]

I own a Corvette and I challenge you to find me a car that performs like a Corvette for the money.

Let me guess, you live in the US. You basically proved you didn't understand what you read. Are you actually arguing that the US is, "the world stage?"

Re:So, the system works?

[Maxo-Texas]

When i was a child, books were 2.00 and 2.25. Gasoline was 88 cents. Electricity was 6 cents a kilowatt hour.

On that baseline with inflation, books should be about four to six dollars. They are eight dollars and some authors like Rowling are billionaires.

Books have gone up faster than inflation for successful series. They are currently overcompensated (a successful author shouldn't be a billionaire if we have an efficient market).

Since there is a glut of entertainment, I've mitigated this by starting with the less expensive entertainment first and working my way up. Something like Potter, I wait a couple months and borrow a friends copy, check it out of the library, or buy a used copy. In many cases, I just do without. If there are 10 excellent series to read and I only have *time* to read 5 of them, then I can easily cut the 5 most expensive.

The entertainment glut is only getting worse. Sometimes when I talk to 30 and 40 year olds, there are movies and books I consider staples that they haven't gotten too yet.

As soon as you back a mere 90 days off the leading edge, your costs drop by 50%.

Re:So, the system works?

[Reziac]

I've seen many people do an impulse purchase of a car (makes you wonder how little *real money* $35k actually IS), but I've NEVER known anyone to do an "envy purchase", not even here in Yuppieville. It's always about "how good it felt" at the time, never "because Joe next door has one".

The Corvette occupies that same niche as the Harley, where it's a sort of lifestyle symbol and quality is irrelevant, just so long as it represents that lifestyle in its original form.

Re:So, the system works?

[nomadic]

J&R is awesome.

Re:So, the system works?

[blair1q]

No, the problem is that without the excess profits most retailers can't afford the land and utilities they're using.

We all knew when the internet economy started that the online business model was massively more efficient than the bricks-and-mortar model, but the availability of nearly full "online" capability when you're standing right in the bricks-and-mortar unit makes that difference in efficiency even more palpable.

BTW, your restaurant example is moot, here. There's no such thing as an online-restaurant business model. Delivery isn't the same thing, either.

Retail sales jobs are going to be reduced in number, just like lots of other jobs that can be displaced due to online access. The only jobs that will be left will be those that use direct personal service, the laying of hands or eyes on your body or your property (if the property can't be shipped out efficiently).

That is, unless we can get the cost of labor to rise in other countries.

Re:So, the system works?

[GooberToo]

The Corvette example merely represents equally illogical anti-American sentiment.

Doubtful. Your position seems to represent an illogical pro-American sentiment. You seem believe the US is the world stage and in doing so, forget that tariffs apply to US luxury imports.

The primary reason why the Corvette is such a bargin in the US is because is has no tariffs attached but its competition has huge tariffs. This is the exact opposite in much of the rest of the world. Once that price point shifts, suddenly the Corvette looks dramatically less attractive.

Re:So, the system works?

[nomadic]

Wait a minute, you basically told your customers where they could get better prices than your store? And you imply it was unfair of your manager to criticize you for that? If I were him I would have fired you immediately. He sounds pretty nice for not doing that.

Re:So, the system works?

[mikestew]

In the city to which I'm currently residing in Kentucky (you know, south of the Mason-Dixon, where all of those gun-toting conservatives people love to make fun of so much)

Though south of the Mason-Dixon (which probably doesn't divide what you think it does), Kentucky was not a Confederate state. Put aside your pre-conceived notions, and you shouldn't be surprised to find all that you describe in Louisville. Now take a trip to anywhere away from the interstate or US 25. Still got your Best Buys, Whole Foods, and choice of three Indian restaurants?

Re:So, the system works?

[Lilith's Heart-shape]

Don't ask me why, but books are apparently seen as essential for your living.

I don't see how you can have a society worth living in without a population that knows how to read and can afford to possess books.

Re:So, the system works?

[Reziac]

Check out Winco Grocery, which is employee-owned. They seem to practice mainly JIT stocking, but can special-order any quantity you want. They also have a full instore bakery (non-union so they can do both the mixing and baking in-house, which makes a huge difference in quality) and a freeform bulk-shopping area where you package up as much or little as you want of various staples and notions, and pay by the pound. Service is good and you NEVER see an employee lollygagging around.

Re:So, the system works?

[Anonymous Coward]

After I wrote my first reply, I realized I've made a mistake. I started with examples, instead of giving you the fundamental points first. So I'll toss those in, and then we can discuss how these look in various scenarios.

• Your competitors are going to constantly be trying to minimize and remove you from the marketplace.
• You are not perfect and you will make mistakes - performing an awesome balancing act that holds profit steady with little to no growth is nearly impossible in the real world.
• Morale matters - if your employees perceive that there exists little to no opportunity in your company for their own growth, you will see brain-drain as the experienced people leave for brighter pastures.

Let's start with those for now. I will tell you that in my experience, they are as close to tautologies as anything can be.

Re:So, the system works?

[Duradin]

Inferred, not missed. The main point was Wal-Mart people buy only on price.

Re:So, the system works?

[GooberToo]

"envy purchase"

This element generally sets the stage for which manufacturers are shopped and which models are test driven. So basically, you likely saw it, you just didn't realize it.

Re:So, the system works?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not sure if you strengthens or damages your argument on Harleys but they also sell very well and are at least perceived as a premium product in Japan.

Re:So, the system works?

[Anonymous Coward]

While I do agree with your examples, especially the Harleys, I think they leave out an important aspect of shopping decisions that's hard to quantify - taste. Personally, I do prefer the Japanese 'crotch rocket' experience. But, I admit Harleys score very high on my style scale.

Consider art. As far as wall coverings go, art is way over priced. Why not buy some quality canvas and high end paints and make your own? It'd probably be similar, if not better, 'quality'.

Re:So, the system works?

[Reziac]

Exactly my problem with it. What on earth is wrong with steady-state economics, where income remains flat but regular? People complain about my favourite city because it doesn't experience "growth". It's been static for decades. No booms, no busts, population the same as it was 50 years ago. What's wrong with *stability*, anyway?!

The problem is that "growth" dilutes the outcome, so the outcome has to grow to remain spread among 'em at the previous level...

Re:So, the system works?

[tycoex]

That happened in the town I live in also. The people didn't want the Wal-Mart built there. They built it right across the lines in another town (literally the west side of the street was my town, the easy side of the street was the other town). Everyone I know shops at the Wal-Mart still, and the other town gets all the tax revenue from it. Imbeciles.

Re:So, the system works?

[Anonymous Coward]

When I buy clothes, I go to Sears. I pick out Land's End Business Outfitter's clothes. A shirt at Wal-Mart costs $18 and tears at the seams or develops fuzzy spots or holes after 2-3 washes; after 2 years, the $25 Land's End shirts I have aren't even discolored, much less fuzzy or tearing.

Blah blah blah.

When I buy jeans, I go to WalMart, because I'll be damned if they don't hold up just as well as jeans from JCPenny's, Sears, or anywhere else. Mind you, I refuse to pay $80 for a pair of jeans. Regardless, cheap shit is cheap shit - and cheap shit, from China, is in EVERY store. WalMart, Target, Best Buy, Sears, JCPenny, Nordstrom, Kohl's, Macy's - shit, I bet even Ikea has no shortage of Chinese product.

Expensive shit from China is also in every store. I've bought the majority of my electronics at WalMart. My (at the time) $1.5k 42" 1080p TV was significantly cheaper at WalMart - and the same exact goddamned TV being sold in 'better' stores regardless. Same with both of my iPods.

And that's the moral of the story. Quality vs. price is the only thing that matters, and that has little to do with what store you're in.

Re:So, the system works?

[Anonymous Coward]

The word is WERE, not WHERE.

Fucking Dumbass

Re:So, the system works?

[h4rr4r]

So order nicer stuff. I do that just to get t-shirts that last, jeans that don't suck and whole host of other things. What I do not do is begrudge those that cannot afford to spend like I do. I still seek the lowest price on the better quality goods though, mostly by seeing who has free shipping.

Re:So, the system works?

[RicktheBrick]

I use to work at K-Mart. They would offer special prices on some products especially milk and soda pop. The prices were lower than wholesale so people who resold those products would come in a buy as much as they could. The local Dairy Queen would buy the milk and people who owned soda pop vending machines would buy the soda. As a result there were many times when the product was sold out before one could purchase one. Allowing people to bring back products before 90 days was also a big problem with televisions. One would purchase a television and bring it back before the 90 days and than go to another store and repeat the process. If there were enough stores in the local area one could virtually get a television set for free. After the television set was returned the store would have to pay some electronic repair shop to check it out and than have to offer a discount on it since it was a used product. They would lose a lot of money on those sales. The store would say that they honor other stores sales prices but they had to be the same brand, model, and even weight. It seemed that no two local stores would have the same brand and model so they almost never had to honor that promise. There will come a day in the not too distance future when one will do all of their shopping online. Robots will gather the products and they will be available at a door where they will be placed in your vehicle for you. Stores will be a lot smaller since they will be able to store the products from the floor to the ceiling with very narrow passageways. Shoplifting by the general public will not be a problem. Even going through the store to put products back where they belong will cease. One will lose the impulse buying which is a significant amount but I am sure that it will not compare to the other loses..

Re:So, the system works?

[Reziac]

That doesn't necessarily mean the motivator is *envy*, tho. I see someone driving a bigger truck, I realise my truck just ain't doing the job anymore and I should get THAT truck next time -- that's not envy, that's common sense based on simple observation.

"I want it because I saw it and liked it" (desire) is not the same as "I want it because the Joneses have it" (envy).

Re:So, the system works?

[tycoex]

Definitely. NewEgg has exactly the same or even a bit cheaper prices (usually) than TigerDirect. I was immediately turned off from TigerDirect just by looking at their website. It looks so.... unprofessional. Like a scam site or something.

NewEgg on the other hand has a very clean website and I've heard nothing but raving reviews about their customer service and how is it use to returned a DOA product if necessary.

Re:So, the system works?

[GooberToo]

You're confusing the "rule" with the "exception".

Re:So, the system works?

[Opportunist]

There are two reasons for B&M stores to continue existing, and one is really hard to eliminate by online stores: advice and being able to see/try the goods.

Now, advice could be handled online. Most of the things people might be asking could be solved by having a clerk in a java chat applet. Actually, it would be even a hell lot more convenient than in any store, since you needn't look for one and they won't pester you if you don't want anything from them. And since most questions would be along the lines of "I need a X for Y, what should I get?" this can be handled online easily.

But how do you let your customer "try on" his new item? It is fairly easy with packaged goods (so I don't really get why there ain't more food being sold online, considering how processed food can be kept fresh nearly infinitely, even without refrigeration), with computer parts, with books, with most goods that you can make your mind up without having it in your hands. But how about clothing? Yeah, sizes... guess what, they don't mean jack anymore. Take two clothing manufacturers and try on the same size pants. One will fit, one won't. And don't make me start about boots.

So unless you can somehow sensibly solve this (and no, having it sent to me in a week and sending it back after a week when it doesn't fit is NOT a sensible solution), buying clothing online is just not really a good option. Not to mention that I don't even WANT to know who already wore that and for how long. I mean, in a store, yes, someone else might have tried it on. But he won't have been to a party with it. I don't want to have to blacklight everything I order just to make sure ... let's keep it at that.

Re:So, the system works?

[Opportunist]

Then the EU dumps its surplus of butter and wheat on them and we can first of all keep our farmers subsidized and call that dumping of food foreign aid.

The system works.

Re:So, the system works?

[StormUP]

Buying local for me means buying from powells.com instead of amazon.com when it comes to books Sometimes I'll even look stuff up on their website, then call in and they'll have it ready for pickup and checkout at the front when I get there. It's too bad more local businesses can't figure out how to make a good website.

Re:So, the system works?

[evocarti]

You picked a couple topics that are difficult to discuss rationally.

These purchases are driven out of [irrational] passion rather than getting the best price/performance ratio.

Given: sometimes that passion is for the 'fastest machine I can afford' - where the sportscar or bike you end up with is the 'rational choice'.

PS. Don't knock the Corvette - it's a very competent racer.

Re:So, the system works?

[Lilith's Heart-shape]

And all of that is why I ride a Triumph. Fuck Harley-Davidson.

Re:So, the system works?

[eth1]

I am failing to see how you can use the Corvette in your argument. For it's price there isn't another vehicle that can compare.

This in no way is meant to contest your overall point, which I happen to agree with.

Lotus Elise (if you can fit inside) & Porche Boxster are both about the same price new (50s) as a base model 'vette. They don't have the raw horsepower (Elise gets close in the hp/lb category, though), but they have no problem keeping up, unless you're going straight the whole time.

Re:So, the system works?

[WidgetGuy]

It's not just Amazon UK that's having problems delivering on time. Amazon US has also been, shall I say, "spotty" in this department recently.

For example, I ordered some software from them (their price was better than the vendor's own "special holiday pricing"). That was a month ago. It still hasn't arrived. The transaction, however, was between my business partner and Amazon. So, I did not get the usual shipping feedback from them (my business partner is following this up, so I'm sort of out of that loop). On the other hand, I recently (last week) purchased an Intel NIC card from them with free 2-3 day shipping. It arrived a day early in perfect condition. In fact, I'm using it right now.

Here's the type of scenario that should really give B&M stores with no on-line presence a bad day.

I was one of the first people to buy a Nook. After a rocky start (which Barnes and Noble handled very well, I hasten to add), it's now over a year later and you will have to pry Nookie out of my dead, cold hands. I love this little thing. So, here's the scenario...

Recently, I was browsing B&N's Web site when I came upon a book I'd never heard about from an author I didn't know. It was "The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo" by Stieg Larsson. B&N was selling the Nook version for $5.20, so I jumped on it (I like murder mysteries). Just a great book! I remember thinking to myself half-way through that "somebody's going to make this into a movie." So, I went on over to Netflix (I have a "Watch Instantly" account with them -- no physical DVDs -- $8/month). Sure enough, there it was! I clicked play. Watched it right then and there (hence the word "instantly") on my computer at 780p. You know how you "visualize" scenes in a book when you're reading it? You create a whole "world" in your mind based on the author's words. Well, if I didn't know better, I'd swear I wrote the movie script and did the set design and cast selection myself. And, oh, if you're not aware of her, check out the Swedish actress Naomi Rapace -- yowsah!! What a great actress -- she acted exactly as I had imagined her character in the book (Lisbeth Salander — juvenile delinquent, super hacker with a photographic memory and an I.Q. you could use as a down payment on a new car).

But, thanks to my trip to Netflix, I now know there is another book in a trilogy series from Larsson (sadly, he passed away at only 50 years of age shortly after he delivered this trilogy to the publisher). I know this 'cause Netflix already has the Swedish movie of that book available to watch instantly. So, I went back to the B&N site (with the Nook) and bought the next book ("The Girl Who Played With Fire" — it was priced at $7.99 'cause they know they have you hooked after that first one) and started reading it last night. I have the accompanying movie in my Netflix Watch Instantly queue ready for viewing after I finish reading the book. I will repeat this process when I see the movie of the last book in the trilogy (sob!) appear on Netflix (the book is already available).

By the way, Netflix simply destroys Hulu. What did I find when I searched for "The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo" on Hulu (I have a trial Plus subscription there)? Trailers and clips. Yawn. And commercials. That's right. Even with trailers and clips. The $7.99/month Hulu Plus subscription does not come commercial-free. Grrrrrr!! Netflix has no commercials. No Web site ads. It's digital Nirvana.

This type of "mashup" is something it would be very difficult for a B&M-only retailer to provide. I didn't even have to leave the house to do any of this book buying or movie buying (good thing, too — there's snow all over the place here right now and the temperature is -8C). I bought both books using the Nook via my home WiFi network (took about 30 seconds to download 440+ pages after I clicked on "By Now"). Used my trusty home desktop computer to find and watch the movie (I could have also watched on my TV via my Blu-ray DVD player that is Internet-enabled for Netflix, Pandora and a whole bunch of other "from the 'net" content).

I think I like the way this new digital world is shaping up. A lot.

Re:So, the system works?

[Kijori]

True, but I'm referring more to large businesses. If a company makes $100 million in profit one year, and $150 million in profit the next year, but they were expected to make $175 million in profit, the market completely disregards the fact that they grew and their stock dives.

Why? Because they didn't hit some arbitrary expectation of growth? Because they were greedy, but not greedy enough? That's what I was referring to.

That's because stock prices aren't based on current profits, they're based on predicted future profits and future growth - you're buying to sell in the future, and so you're deciding not the highest price you would be willing to pay for the company as-is, but the highest price you can pay and still sell for a profit after a period of time. If a company doesn't post a profit as large as expected it's mostly irrelevant that it did better than the year before, or that it still made a decent profit; its value in the future has dropped and that's what stock prices are based on.

Re:So, the system works?

[h4rr4r]

How close is the shave? I honestly would pay far more than that if it can shave really close. I want to be able to run my hand against my skin the wrong way and not feel stubble.

Re:So, the system works?

[Eponymous Coward]

I don't understand how an efficient market would curb demand for Rowling's talent? Since supply is fixed (there's only one of her) and the demand is enormous, she can dictate the terms of her publishing contracts. I don't have a problem with that.

BTW, when I was a child, a 4.77 MHz computer was $2,000 and a cup of coffee at a cafe $0.25. Now, the coffee is 10x more expensive and the computer is 1000x less expensive. Inflation baselines are just averages. Expect half the things in the world to exceed the baseline rate, and the other half to be lower.

Re:So, the system works?

[Opportunist]

No. Their secret to success is giving you no option. Yes, blatantly ignoring one of the cornerstones of free market is the key to success in the pseudo free market we have today.

They don't "know" that Strawberry poptarts are in demand after a hurricane. They know that poptarts are in demand, and they can order in such a quantity that they can undercut every competitor. To lower the price even MORE, they'll go look what flavor is the cheapest. Strawberry? Ok, then it's strawberry poptarts. A billion strawberry poptarts. Every single one half the price that any other poptart in any other shop could be.

But ONLY strawberry. But, be honest, do you really care? Do you want your cherry poptart so much that you pay twice as much for it? You could have two strawberry ones for that price. And you want poptarts! So what, they almost taste the same anyway...

Re:So, the system works?

[oblio_one]

Given the number of honest "salesmen" still in business, single tense was more accurate.

Re:So, the system works?

[jfengel]

The story resonates with me in particular. I'm in need of a new TV, and I know it's the sort of thing that I really need to see.

My price range is lower, but I'm still uncomfortable with buying it based on reviews alone. I may pay a substantial markup in order to have a knowledgeable salesmen show me the options so I can separate things that matter from those that don't. (I'm finding the reviews bewildering, which may simply mean that I should just buy whatever's cheapest.)

It's probably a corner case, though a car is an even bigger example. You really MUST drive it to know what you like, and it's a major expense. To go to a dealer, do the test drive, and then buy online... that would be perfectly legal and decidedly underhanded. I could do the same with the TV, and if I don't, it's just my conscience.

Re:So, the system works?

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

Anecdotes are great and all, but we're supposed to be nerds. Here are some studies:

http://www.newrules.org/retail/key-studies-walmart-and-bigbox-retail#4

Interesting findings from these studies show that most retail purchases at a Walmart (85%) have corresponding losses from local business, within two years there is significant loss of local businesses in general when a Walmart opens, Tax revenues generally do not go up, Retail employee wages and benefits drop as the result of a Walmart opening. Walmarts funnel nearly twice as much of the money running through them out of the local economy (out of the state) as local retail businesses do. One study found that for every job created by a particular Walmart studied, the local community lost 1.4 jobs as local businesses closed. Counties with one or more Walmart have higher poverty rates and poverty rates that increase faster than other counties in the same state and/or area, over a 10 year period.

Re:So, the system works?

[evocarti]

Some people like vintage stuff. It's OK.

HD is a modern 'vintage' bike.

For un-faired bikes, I prefer them to be air-cooled. The giant radiator at the front is butt-ugly. Some people prefer aesthetics to the almighty price/performance ratio.

Re:So, the system works?

[Anonymous Coward]

Believe me I am no great fan of Harley, but if air cooling is good enough for Ducati it is good enough for a POS like Harley make. Actually, thinking back to all the bikes I've owned, not one has been water cooled.

Re:So, the system works?

[geminidomino]

Gods I wish we had a Fry's down here. Our only options in town for local parts are Best Buy (pretty much lousy hard drives and overpriced video cards only) and the TigerDirect-reanimated abomination that is CompUSA...

Re:So, the system works?

[GooberToo]

PS. Don't knock the Corvette - it's a very competent racer.

Actually I didn't. I stated a larger world view to which many American's, and in particular, American Corvette owners, took offense.

I like vettes. They are fun, powerful cars. But once you get outside the US, at the same price point, it quickly falls to the bottom of a most people's lists. The reason being, once you add in tariffs and taxes, the vette is suddenly overwhelmed with the rest of the world's competition. And here's a hint - they are not plastic, generally ride/drive much better with comparable performance, generally with more features, and frequently have much more prestige.

Re:So, the system works?

[Opportunist]

A very logic consequence if you ask me. And I hope nobody dares come around and cry "Evil store charges something for nothing!"

It's NOT nothing! It's expertise. It's like saying consultants should not be paid because... ok, bad example. But this person gives you an advice. They let you benefit from their experience and their knowledge. You want your knowledge to be paid, don't you? No matter what kind of business you work in, you expect to be paid according to what you can offer to the company, and hence the customer. If you're a programmer with 20+ years of experience in your field, you do expect to get more than the intern that just started learning what to do. You expect that your employer (and thus the customer, don't forget that it is ALWAYS the customer that foots the bill, or the company goes out of business) to pay your knowledge and your experience.

I think it's only logical that you somehow "honor" that knowledge. Else, why bother knowing anything besides of what interests me? Nobody pays me to know about diseases? Why should I deal with that yucky stuff then?

Re:So, the system works?

[Kjella]

The only motive there is the price of the share, which dictates that the company has to show profit growth. When a company makes a 3% growth in profit instead of 5%, the share price usually takes a significant hit, which is very illogical considering the company has actually improved its value per share.

The growth is already priced into the share. If you expected a 5% pay raise and only got a 3% raise, then obviously the future value of your job is lower than previously predicted even though you make more. Duh. As for infinite growth the economy can't, but one very successful company can have huge sustained growth as other companies fail. Just pick the right company...

Re:So, the system works?

[Anonymous Coward]

When I was in Seattle I saw a place like this. It was called "Fred Meyer" I think.

Re:So, the system works?

[chispito]

What I want is a Wal-Mart like store that specifically tries to play the budget game, but on value terms. "Cheap as shit" is not value; "Great Value" brand food is the least costly food, but also the worst value. If you want value, you must spend a little more.. and only a little more.

I find that Costco provides an excellent value. It's cheap, the returns policy is excellent, and the quality is almost always extremely high. If you can find a way to make the bulk buying work for you, it's a great place to shop.

Re:So, the system works?

[evocarti]

I wrote a long response, but found that was pretty well summarized by one sentence:

Because 4-cylinder bikes sound like a cat in heat when you rev them.

Re:So, the system works?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, you can see similar stories in Amazon reviews as well.

Re:So, the system works?

[Lilith's Heart-shape]

And call the store Faraday's.

Re:So, the system works?

[cayenne8]

"The airlines learned this a little while ago. "

Not all of them...

I try to fly Southwest whenever I can..they are about the cheapest out there, but they run usually on time, and they are always friendly and helpful.

I actually enjoy most of my flights with SWA.

Re:So, the system works?

[517714]

Buying from a "big box" chain store is now altruistic? Wow, war really is peace.

Re:So, the system works?

[Antisyzygy]

Well, grocery prices at HEB and Fiesta are many times lower than Walmart. Ive been to farmers markets where I bought fresh produce for WAY cheaper than Walmart could do. Theres a dude at our local farmers market that sells every vegetable for a dollar, Im talking huge eggplants, heads of lettuce, and sometimes multiple vegetables for a dollar if they are smaller. They are bigger and more healthy looking than Walmart's produce and cheaper so F*** walmart. I hate going there anyway. Additionally you can always go buy better clothes on sales at various places like TJ Max or Marshalls. Im sure there are other options where you live like thrift stores? Clothing at thrift stores is not always bad clothing. I got the best pair of jeans I ever wore at a thrift store.

Re:So, the system works?

[h4rr4r]

Well that is really easy to solve, just get rid of capital gains and tax any such income as income.

Re:So, the system works?

[springbox]

You must be unlucky, because I've only had excellent experiences with Amazon. They usually over pack the stuff that they send me. I once received a $4 keyboard from them in a box about 10 times the size of the keyboard itself, complete with a huge amount of paper padding.

Re:So, the system works?

[Antisyzygy]

Support local farms? Thats the best way to do it. Our local farmers market has cheaper prices on produce than Walmart. Many times you get people that grow their own food but grew to much and just want to make a couple extra bucks off it. The food is generally much healthier (as they don't try to mass produce it) and it looks better (like thicker fuller leaves, not spoiled). The meat is more expensive but who wants to eat Walmart cow meat? It sucks and it spent most of its time in a pile of cow shit behind a cow's festering infected hide. Its the same pretty much with every other animal product they sell.

Re:So, the system works?

[Obfuscant]

With delivery services, you already paid and bought the item, essentially the deal's been closed. You can now try to return it and exchange it for an undamaged good, i.e. send it back, wait for the new item to arrive and hope it ain't damaged.

Where I work, I have the option of buying through contract with Dell, or buying from a local computer store. (Not a chain, a small outfit.)

Commodity things I don't want to mess with, and really high end things that I want 24/7 support for, I buy from Dell. I just got a couple of C6100 servers and 48 Tb of disk array, because Dell really wanted to make the sale and cut the price, and I have some expectation they know what they are doing in those areas.

But for everything else I go to the local store. They know me there, I can walk in and say "I want X", I can say "let me look at the motherboard you'll be using", and a lot of the time, "can you leave out the Windows on that special and make it even better?" (And when I really DID want a system with "windows" on it, they had a few left with XP so I was not stuck buying crap 7.) If something doesn't work, I stop by the store on the way into work and get it replaced.

For example, I have bought a replacement battery for an older laptop online. It's a chinese knock-off, and the laptop knows that and automatically goes into hibernate while telling me to get a real battery. The retailer is running me through hoops with things to try to get it to work. So far, it has stopped going into hibernate, the laptop reports "100%" for charge status, but as soon as I yank the power the system shuts off. Phe!)

Most of all, I have much better control over what I am buying and a lot less trouble finding out the technical details. "I need something with two PCI slots and a PCI-X." More important, I can say "I want cheap stable technology" for the data collection systems I put together. The most recent system I'm dealing with was bought by someone else, is a Dell, and has so many bells and whistles that I don't know if the reason it doesn't work quite right is due to an OS/hardware incompatibility or what. And why the hell is this thing shutting itself off after running for a few hours, and why does the network stop working on a regular basis? Is it an Ubuntu problem, a Dell problem, or what? The only reason I'm forced to use Ubuntu and not a repo I'm familiar with and know does what I want is because the fancy Dell machine has a bleeding edge disk controller that Ubuntu supports but SuSE and CentOS does not.

Of course, I also live in a small city with a large vocal activist community that keeps reminding us to "buy local, think global", who have been able to do things like keep the big-box stores out. If this discussion was taking place here, you'd be drowned out by people telling you to support the local shops. Funny though, we used to have a really good book/magazine store that carried everything I wanted and some that I asked for special, but they closed soon after the Borders came into town. I'm guessing that the "buy local" crowd is all talk, no money.

Re:So, the system works?

[Nethemas the Great]

Good web sites cost $$$$. Crappy web sites made by code monkey sweatshops cost $$$. Bad websites the bookstore staff could put together cost $$ and most mom and pop bookstores have $ to spend thanks to everyone else standing in line ahead of them for customers.

Re:So, the system works?

[Antisyzygy]

Harley riders remind me of Apple fanbois. Maybe not the best analogy, but you pay a premium price for a better os and crappier hardware that you could get if you bought another brand.

Re:So, the system works?

[frank_adrian314159]

Even back home going to the bookstore means driving half way across town.

Hell, if I had to drive halfway across town for a book or wait five days to get it from Amazon, it would mean I'm living in the wrong place. You should move.

Re:So, the system works?

[HungryHobo]

I've bought from a few online retailers and I've found amazon to be the easiest/fastest for this.

I just wish I could filter out items from sellers who don't ship to my country.
It's the biggest annoyance for me on amazon.
I search for what I want, put it in the basket and when I go to check out half the items turn out to be unavailable to me.
If I can't buy it I don't even want to see it.

Re:So, the system works?

[yurtinus]

That's sort of the genius of it... Everybody has this image of HD as a badass motorcycle company when really it's a marketing company (like Nike, Hollister, etc, etc). They sell an image, motorcycles are just a conduit for the higher-margin apparel. How many people do you see wandering in HD apparel that don't ride any bikes? How many places sell the HD logo that don't have anything to do with the bikes? There's definitely some talent somewhere to make that much money without a lot of effort. I'm just jealous that I didn't think of it first ;)

Re:So, the system works?

[penguinchris]

Wegmans is great! I'm from the Buffalo area (Amherst) and grew up going to Wegmans. I went to other grocery stores a few times for one reason or another, and never understood why anyone would go there when Wegmans is right next door (or down the road). I went to the University of Rochester for my undergrad degree and again, Wegmans was the place to be. Students from out of the area were always amazed. There's a bus that takes you from campus to Wegmans! They have one of those here in Amherst for SUNY Buffalo - go at the right time to the store nearby the university and it's packed full of students from all over the country (and the world).

Anyway, I moved to Southern California for grad school and was shocked at the quality of the grocery stores, and their prices. I mean, I'd done a lot of traveling around the US and Canada and had been to a lot of mediocre grocery stores, but I assumed that in huge population centers there would be better options. Whole Foods is OK but they have a weird selection, and they really do earn their nickname of Whole Paycheck - I couldn't afford to shop there regularly. All of the "regular" chains are awful, or have one or two decent stores but always way too far away to make sense for me.

I ended up going to Trader Joe's for almost all of my food. Excellent quality and excellent prices for the most part, but they're small stores and don't have everything. However, now I find myself missing some of the great stuff in Trader Joe's, despite having easy access to Wegmans again. It would be interesting to see Trader Joe's and Wegmans competing in the same area - their range doesn't seem to overlap (they've got Trader Joe's on Long Island, but no Wegmans, for example).

I guess this is kind of pointless but oh well. I typed it out so here it is.

Re:So, the system works?

[geminidomino]

So it's not just me! When I was growing up, I could always tell if mom was still awake, or if it was safe to sneak out and fire up the NES, by the TV-spidey-sense...

Re:So, the system works?

[Antisyzygy]

The problem is that those retailers primarily exist in the larger metropolitan areas and not in towns of populations below 50,000 where competition is desperately needed.

Most rural towns have access to more farms, so they need to start supporting local growers. Prices at farmers markets are many times very competitive with Wal-mart prices, with the exception of the meat. However, Wal-mart meat is made from animals in massive factory farms that let them fester in their own feces. You get healthier animals and healthier meat from farmers markets.

Re:So, the system works?

[Quirkz]

Well, I do drive an hour and a quarter to the nearest Target a couple of times a year, but it's hard to justify an extra two hours in the car just to avoid Wal-Mart.

Re:So, the system works?

[Antisyzygy]

Solution to razor problem : Grow a beard. Men have them for a reason. Its like a male peacocks feathers. Chicks need to fuck off if they don't like beards.

Re:So, the system works?

[Xyrus]

Shopper: What ya got?
Town: Well, we got Walmart. Kmart and Walmart. Kmart, Walmart, and BestBuy. Walmart, Kmart, Walmart, and BestBuy. Walmart, Kmart, Walmart, BestBuy, and Walmart. Walmart, Walmart....

Shoppers: Walmart! Wonderful Walmart! Walmart, wonderful Walmart!

Town: Shut up! Stupid shoppers...

Re:So, the system works?

[AuMatar]

Funny, I find that southwest is the least nice option out there- the seats are the smallest, the flights are cramped. The only good thing about is its cheap.

Re:So, the system works?

[cayenne8]

"It feels less crap when it's the same store. I wouldn't have any problem with going into an electrical retailer..."

The trouble with that approach is, if they have a store in your area, the website is going to charge you sales tax, and on big ticket electronic items, that can start to get significant really quickly. The sales tax down here in the New Orleans area is in the 10% ballpark.

Re:So, the system works?

[__aamnbm3774]

regardless of whether you believe my Amazon story, are you actually saying you have NEVER heard of a company giving someone the 'run around'???

This happens all the time, with all major corporations. I can't figure out of you are trolling or putting Amazon on some type of pedestal.

Yes, it can happen with local mom and pop stores as well, but in my experience, local stores will take a hit before any large corporation will. (hence the guy who brought up Best Buy's horrendous return policies)

Re:So, the system works?

[noidentity]

Of course, the free market capitalism evangelists would claim that another store is free to open to compete. The problem with that is the barrier to entry would be beyond any realistic capability and the competitor could be easily squashed by a short term price adjustment from the monopoly.

Isn't that the buyers of the area voting with their wallet for just Wal-Mart then? Help me out with this, because I really don't understand this objection to the free market. If the local market votes for just Wal-Mart, what other system will result in competition, aside from a dictatorship?

Re:So, the system works?

[that IT girl]

Of course--but usually you get what you pay for, so the nicer atmosphere and better food is going to be a little more expensive. Despite what some people seem to think these days, you can't get something for nothing, or every perk you want without ponying up for it. Things cost money, service requires a paycheck for the employee, and quality in either of these areas requires more money than a cheaper, lesser alternative.

Re:So, the system works?

[yurtinus]

Let's highlight and summarize this point as the decline in demand for durable goods. Things get cheaper and don't last as long. Sure there's the option to pony up more cash but often times (take textiles for instance) you're stuck with either super cheap crap or super high end designer goods. Everybody knows you don't get the quality proportional to the price you pay for the label - but who makes goods with a focus on quality at a middle of the range price?

And $60 tires... hell, my last *pair* cost $500 :P

Re:So, the system works?

[that IT girl]

It boggles the mind, honestly. I just cannot imagine being so shallow and.. ridiculous.

Re:So, the system works?

[hazydave]

Yeah... I figure, if I'm going going to be a human billboard, I either better like the product for the product's sake, or get paid for the ad placement. So I'll wear an R.E.M. or Springsteen T-Shirt, music I strongly recommend, or one from Martin Guitars or maybe Panasonic camcorders, since I use both of those products. But Abercrombie? A company largely distinguished by delivering the stupidest looking stores known to mankind, and hiring a couple of shirtless boys to hang out in font? That company... they'd have to pay BIG to place an ad on me.

It's a miracle of modern advertising kung-fu that some people will pay several times more for the same cheap Chinese-made t-shirts, if advertising is also included.

Re:So, the system works?

[mdarksbane]

Well, there is an aspect of are you ever obligated to buy from a company. When you walk into a store, you are giving them a chance to sell to you, through price or service or extras or whatever. That's why car dealers send out free boxes of chocolate and have giveaways for taking a test drive. Once they have you in the store, looking at the product, their biggest barrier to a sale is already past. If they don't close at that point, how much of that is on them?

Re:So, the system works?

[Anonymous Coward]

No. The Corvette sells well because it's the cheapest sports car that you can get that's that powerful. There is no prestige if you're in a Corvette. As to whether you can get a better car for your money, it really depends on your definition of "better". If you mean "better gas mileage, better reliability", then yes. If you mean "more horsepower, more torque", then no.

Re:So, the system works?

[Nethemas the Great]

Capitalism is about generating the highest revenue at the lowest cost. It has absolutely jack sh*t to do with "best value." The notion of value in a capitalist society is a delusive manufacture of the the marketing department designed to part customers and their money while providing little if anything of true worth in return. The penultimate expression of this can be seen in patent holding corporations such as Intellectual Ventures whom extract money from you for a promise not to sue you.

Re:So, the system works?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sadly, I have to agree. I drive a Pontiac Grand-Am my parents gave me when I went to college, but if I had the money, I'd get a Delorean...

(No BTTF jokes, I just want the Delorean)

Re:So, the system works?

[penguinchris]

A shave with a double-bladed safety razor is amazing. It's what I use also. The parent is, kind of ironically given the themes in his posts, stuck on a brand - Merkur - which while assumedly excellent (I've seen them in cutlery shops) are definitely overkill.

In Thailand, I bought a plastic-handled safety razor (the part you put against your face is metal) that came with some blades for about $5. You can get packs of 10 blades at some Wal-Marts in the US (about half of the wal-marts out there seem to carry them) and many grocery stores for $1.50-2. You can get really picky about using esoteric brands of blade, but the cheap ones work great for me - I'm sure there's a difference, but you have to see if the cheap ones work for you before trying the more expensive ones.

In London I upgraded my safety razor because I saw one in a store, for something like $8. Then I found a 1960's Gillette safety razor at a flea market for $4. It's a similar model to the one you see Jack Lemmon use in "The Apartment" - it's got a neat mechanism.

You also don't need a fancy brush and fancy soap. Good quality shaving soap is important, don't get me wrong - but you can use relatively inexpensive shaving cream. It has to be *cream* though, not foam or gel, which is what's most popular for some reason (and cheapest). Trader Joe's makes a great one, but there are always some available at other grocery stores and, indeed, wal-mart. Expect to pay $4-5 for it. A disc of shaving soap works well too, but it's a little fussy and you do need a brush and mug. I have tried a few different disc soaps and I never really liked them, the cream works better for me.

Anyway, you can get unbelievably close, and you don't have as big a problem with certain parts of your face not getting shaved enough, and there's no irritation. There are a couple of trade offs, though. First is that the marketing bit about "you take one stroke, it takes five" is true - you will have to go over your whole face several times if you want a really close shave. There is a lot of technique involved with using a safety razor rather than a modern disposable. You can read all about it online to find out "best practices", but you develop your own way of doing it after a while based on the specifics of your face.

You will spend more time shaving than you would with the modern disposables, but most people who try it seem to find it well worth it. I have had to use a modern razor occasionally since starting with a safety razor (you can't put safety razors in your carry-on), and find it intolerable in comparison.

The key to my comment, though, is that you don't have to spend $60-80 as per the parent's post to start using a safety razor. Look for an inexpensive one (probably have to go online unless you travel overseas regularly, or get lucky at a flea market), and if it doesn't come with blades, try the cheap ones from the grocery store or wal-mart before spending any money on more expensive blades. Try the cream shaves before getting into spending money on fancy disc soaps and brushes and everything. Unlike a lot of things where the cheap stuff can be categorically disregarded, you really can start out on the cheap end here, and go up as you feel is necessary. Remember, this is how *everyone* used to shave - it's a long-perfected technology. It's cheap.

Re:So, the system works?

[penguinchris]

I don't know, I'd personally pay twice as much for the cherry ones over the strawberry ones - the strawberry ones are pretty awful (not that any of them are particularly good, or that I ever buy them myself).

Re:So, the system works?

[h4rr4r]

How about knowing my name and what I like?

I go to one particular Chinese restaurant because the place is nice and clean, the staff know me and the food is reasonably priced. I always tip ~50% and will continue to do so for the forseable future. I never have to mention extra spicy or that I want tea, they know me.

Bestbuy does not want to do that, they want to charge high prices and still treat you like a big box retailer.

Re:So, the system works?

[yurtinus]

Maybe a little bit forceful... Last I checked there's nobody we are actually at war with - so don't know who I'd consider my "enemy." However your point is definitely sound. Americans are working awful hard to undermine our own industrial base by purchasing cheap consumer goods from overseas. Unfortunate that now when I *want* to support an American manufacturer on many things, I simply can't because they have already closed up shop.

Re:So, the system works?

[cayenne8]

"As an example, let's look at Corvettes and Harleys. On the world stage, the Corvette is generally considered a crap, plastic car. It sells well in the US because of its American heritage and perceived prestige. The reality is, a much, much better car can be had for the money."

Wow..you could have picked SO many other examples and had a good argument, but not for a Corvette.

What other car, exactly, CAN you buy for less money with the performance specs of the Corvette?

I'll agree the older ones, like the C4 series were very plastic and cheaply done on the interior, but starting with the C5 series, they have been really improving the interiors. To get another car that would perform like a stock entry level vette you'd pay 10's of thousands of dollars more. For something that matches the Z06 Corvette, you 'd better start looking at 6-digits from foreign companies.

Sadly, the Vette is pretty much the last of the American sports/muscle cars.

You really should do a bit more research in it...the torque, braking, 0-60mph...and yes...take a look at the mileage you can get? My '97 C5 was a 6 speed. I could put that thing on cruise control at 85 mph or a bit more, and I got close to 36 Mpg.

They have gotten a bit more pricey since I've had mine...but in no way are they a low quality car bought only for the name/label. Heck, that is about the ONLY American made car I'd even think of purchasing. Every thing else pretty much sucks from a quality and performance point of view.

I view a car as something to enjoy every time I fire it up. To me, a car is not merely transportation, it is something for ME to enjoy. Not much better than cranking up the tunes, and letting your right foot get a little heavy while out on the road.

Re:So, the system works?

[Tetsujin]

Good web sites cost $$$$. Crappy web sites made by code monkey sweatshops cost $$$. Bad websites the bookstore staff could put together cost $$ and most mom and pop bookstores have $ to spend thanks to everyone else standing in line ahead of them for customers.

Fortunately, it's very easy to get more $$$ - just hold down shift-4 on the keyboard.

Re:So, the system works?

[Antisyzygy]

I absolutely hate Walmart. Every time I go there it is chock full of rude people that cut you off in the aisles or randomly shuffle around the parking lot in stupid places that get in your way. They don't bother using designated crossing areas or sticking near the cars, they just shuffle down the center of the lot. Then theres the people that bolt out of the front door of Walmart and cross right in front of your vehicle without even looking to see if there are cars. Ive had to slam on my brakes more times at Walmart then in Houston rush hour. Then there are the weird mobs of people that spontaneously and constantly spawn from the front door and block all traffic for 20-30 minutes at a time. Every time I go to Walmart I begin to hate humanity. That is probably why Ive only gone there once in the last two years, and that was just to get a Christmas tree.

Re:So, the system works?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's easy to figure out why Wall Street demands a 6-10% growth rate.

Inflation: on average 3% a year. It raises your costs by 3% a year, and you can raise your prices by 3% a year AT MOST. (In some sectors, consumers actually expect prices to go DOWN, not up). So if you do nothing else, in terms of inflation-adjusted dollars your expected future revenue has not changed one bit, and your stock price stays flat. Investors assume the risk of investing with the expectation that at least some of their investments will yield a profit. Additionally, if you're not growing, your competitors surely are, so why invest in you if you have no growth while your competitors have 6-10% growth?

So how do you get that stock price to go up? Options:

1- Sell a lot more product. Your profit margin per piece goes down a little (after all, it takes more resources to sell more product), but if your total profit goes up, you're good.

2- Create efficiencies. If you can raise your profit margin per piece, you're also good. Think refinement of business processes and elimination of redundant employees. You can also force your suppliers to do this in the supply chain to lower the cost of the piece to you if you're big enough (see also: Wal-Mart).

Regarding dividends: Companies that are takeover targets don't need to pay dividends. The stock price fluctuation effectively represents the valuation of the company as a potential takeover target; you have an expectation of future revenue based on the stock price.

Larger companies that are not takeover targets should probably pay dividends. Otherwise, there is no other potential future revenue source to be gained from holding the stock.

Re:So, the system works?

[AntiNazi]

Local hockey equipment supply shop in my area went out of business probably about 10 years ago. It was awesome as they had a large selection you could actually try on before buying and talk to someone knowledgeable about the inventory. During their going out of business sale we talked to the management and they said they had tons of "customers" that would repeatedly come in to try on all sorts of stuff and leave empty handed only to return to try on tons of the next item and leave empty handed. They assumed (and rightly so I'm sure) that these people were using them as the fitting room for online places with cheaper prices. Now I have to drive about an hour to find a store with a much smaller selection. Yay for making up for your online "savings" in shipping costs to try on items.

Re:So, the system works?

[h4rr4r]

No they are not. Those customers could have listed on ebay, could have sold via amazon or could have sold it to the local games stores, they chose to sell to gamestop. Gamestop then risks shelf space on that item.

No one loses here.Not the guy who got $5 and no hassle, not the buyer who gets a $55 game for $35, not the publisher who got the original money and may get another $5 from it when the seller buys another of their games and gamestop makes good money too.

Re:So, the system works?

[Anonymous Coward]

What is good for the long-term health of a company and pleasing the investing public are two different and, at times, exclusionary goals. You can't figure out sound business decisions by looking at what the stock market does on a day-to-day basis.

Re:So, the system works?

[cayenne8]

"They are intentionally using an antiquated engine design with 1950s tech and marketing like anything more advanced "ain't shit". I mean, they are still air cooled for goodness sake..."

Nothing wrong with an air cooled engine. I have a Yamaha Roadliner that is only a few years old, it is just shy of a 1900 engine, air-cooled. I'd hardly call it an inferior, antiquated motorcycle.

Re:So, the system works?

[thomst]

'This is going to accelerate the demise of retailers who do not have either competitive pricing or a standout store experience.'

Be creative? Negotiate better wholesale costs so that you can offer your customers lower prices? If not, someone else will. Isn't that capitalism?

It's Walmart-style capitalism, and it results in continuing, and expanding export of manufacturing to lower-cost labor pools. That, in turn, results in a loss of domestic jobs. As a consequence, fewer customers can afford to buy luxuries, and these consumers must settle for purchasing necessities on a lowest-cost (as opposed to a best-quality) basis, because they lack the income to do otherwise.

It's a Gresham's Law-style race to the bottom, which may wind up allowing marginal retailers to survive, but only at the expense of ruining the economy as a whole.

So, yes, capitalism, but the kind of capitalism - hypnotically focused on short-term profitability, while deliberately ignoring the long-term decline in customer base and profitability that exclusive focus creates - which has been ruining America ever since the rise to total dominance of the MBA in business management, back in the 1980's.

Henry Ford had the wisdom to realize that, by paying decent wages to his workers, he also grew his own customer base. That enlightened form of capitalism - which is of no interest whatsoever to careerist MBAs, because they will be working for a different company within five years, and thus don't really need to care about the long-term prospects of their current employer - is what made America an economic powerhouse in the 1950's. Sadly, the current crop of capitalism advocates seem utterly unable to grasp the fact that the exclusive focus on short-term gain, rather than long-term health and profitability, is a sign of weakness in their economic model, not strength.

Re:So, the system works?

[mark72005]

Same here.

Re:So, the system works?

[cayenne8]

"Actually I didn't. I stated a larger world view to which many American's, and in particular, American Corvette owners, took offense."

Well, with the US being as large and diverse as it is...quite often, America *is* the world to most of us. Many people never leave this country, and honestly, there isn't a real need to. You could do a lifetime exploring the US and not get tired of it.

So, maybe a better question is...why would anyone in the US particularly CARE what the world view of sports cars are?

Re:So, the system works?

[GooberToo]

Please read my other replies for a more complete answer.

What other car, exactly, CAN you buy for less money with the performance specs of the Corvette?

The field is wide open. But your exact choices will vary from country to country depending on their tariffs and taxes and if the competition is made in-country and what type of non-tariff agreements are in place. Much of the vette's bang/buck advantage for US buyers is the fact that its a US car.

As an example, I friend of mine just priced a Camaro in a foriegn country for $90,000. The European cars had very little in the way of tariffs. So for a Vette, in that country, I'm assuming you're comparing the Vette against other cars in the $120k-$150k range. Once you're in that price range, the field is wide open - and the Vette begins to look fairly cheap.

Re:So, the system works?

[cayenne8]

I guess I wonder how anyone that has any eye for quality can shop only at Wal-Mart.

Their meat is atrocious. I dunno how they can legally label some of the choice grade beef they have as choice, it looks, feels like and tastes low rent.

Their produce is often decently ok, but man, I can NOT buy meat there.

Conversely, at Sam's Club, I've gotten great cuts of meat...although I tend to buy the whole vac-pacs of ribeye's and cut them myself, but Wally World meat...ick.

Re:So, the system works?

[cayenne8]

"Funny, I find that southwest is the least nice option out there- the seats are the smallest, the flights are cramped. The only good thing about is its cheap."

Interesting. Maybe it is due to me losing weight, but the seats seem fine to me. I find the flight crews to be great. I always have full drink during the flight, and often they outright make me laugh with some of the stuff they say over the intercoms.

I find the people manning the check-in counters, etc, to be friendly and professional.

I also like their track record for keeping flights on schedule. And on the cost side, I've been appreciating them NOT gouging you for luggage check onboard.

Fortunately, they fly to just about everywhere I generally travel...and at the bottom line, I'm only flying to GET to a destination. The trip really wouldn't be that important to me, but since I find that they have great service, then I take that as an added bonus.

Re:So, the system works?

[GooberToo]

So, maybe a better question is...why would anyone in the US particularly CARE what the world view of sports cars are?

And people wonder why the rest of the world hates us....

Re:So, the system works?

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

Likewise, look at Harleys. They consistently have extremely poor reliability ratings; especially when compared against the biggest six motorcycle competitors on the world stage. Yet Harleys not only sell very well, but frequently demand a premium price.

Just to be fair, Harley Davidson motorcycles fair poorly in surveys when looking at how often they are in for repairs, but in actual testing they do well (Well since the 90's anyway). They suffer in reliability ratings mainly because of their user base. The median age of a HD owner is 55. Most are first time motorcyle buyers. The median mileage is 550 miles per year... of those who actually use them that year. A significant number never make it out of the garage in a given year.

So what does all that add up to? A decently reliable bike owned by the elderly newbies that don't know how to do any repairs, have the money to pay someone else and leave them sitting for long periods of time. It doesn't take a genius to figure out why they have a higher failure rate compared to other bikes, with comparable engineering.

Don't get me wrong. For the price, you can get a much bigger and better bike. So if you're comparing price for reliability it will lose. I just don't think they are actually any less reliable than the average bike on the market. Of course all of this is orthoganal to your point. Yes, people do pay a lot to have that logo on their bike and truck and shirt and jacket and golf clubs and toilet seat and everything else.

Re:So, the system works?

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you talking about Harley or Apple here? After reading your post, I'm not seeing a big difference between the two...

Re:So, the system works?

[GooberToo]

And the competition gets far, far more bleak for the vette once you move outside US markets.

Re:So, the system works?

[Anonymous Coward]

Ahh! But the same applies. Take any european sports car, add tariffs, etc... All of a sudden it is way more expensive than a Corvette. European cars are cheaper in Europe... What a surprise!

Add 10-20 grand to a corvette (from Chev) and it would be a much better car. Now it could compare in price/performance to a european car.

Re:So, the system works?

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

I think the primary reason is that they don't want any other midlife crisis sufferer to say "it ain't a harley".

Heh, that's about right. I remember talking to a guy at the bar about his Harley. He bought it to "get the chicks" but found out after that chicks didn't care and went after the young guys who mostly owned cheaper bikes. That's why the Corvette thing struck a cord with me. When I see either a Vet or a HD on the road I don't think "badass". I think "elderly" because that's who can afford them. Despite what TV would have you believe, most of the interesting "hip" "cool" folks drive beaters and ride on cheap foriegn bikes. Nine times out of ten when you see either of the aforementioned vehicles, the owner will be bald or have gray hair.

Re:So, the system works?

[jgagnon]

In recent memory, the only times I have ever contacted a store was to see if they had a "must have now" item in stock so I could go there and buy it. For all other types of purchases where I know what I want I will shop around online, read reviews, and finally buy at an online merchant I trust (Amazon and Newegg being two examples).

If I don't really know what I want and am just "looking around" then I will often do that online as well as at stores. The problem with stores is that there is a "shipping & handling" cost of me getting in my vehicle and driving there and possibly still not getting what I want if it isn't there. I have a minimum of a 15 minute drive from home to get to a store front. I'm there in less than 1 minute online and don't have to pay for gas or deal with travel time.

The real issue as I see it is that online shopping removes a lot of overhead from the whole shopping experience. The smart stores will come up with an online storefront that gives people access to their inventory with a lower-cost shipping option. Most online portals to physical stores are a horrid approximation of the shopping experience you get at sites like Amazon and provide no real advantage, especially with Amazon Prime shipping ($80 per year for two-day shipping on many, many items and a $3.99 one-day shipping option).

On a side note, it isn't that hard to put your store up on a site like Amazon. And for the brick-and-mortar stores that don't want the added expense of creating/maintaining a good e-commerce experience, setting up a storefront on an established site could be a good choice.

I wish more local stores had an online portal. I like supporting my local economy but I don't like spending a 10% - 100% premium to do it. I spend $3 in gas and 30 minutes in time just to make one trip to "town". Yeah, I live out in the middle of nowhere.

Re:So, the system works?

[GooberToo]

Whoosh! Read my other replies to become enlightened.

Glad to know you either can't comprehend what you read or you seriously believe the US is the "world stage."

Basically you're arguing the Vette is a better car because US tariffs effectively price its competition out of the water. But outside the US, when faced with its competition, the Vette is a cheap, plastic car. That's entirely the point. US buyers perceive the Vette to be the best bang for the buck because they are US buyers. Outside the US, where the car has to stand on its own merits, it typically goes the bottom of everyone's list - and not based on price alone - which is the exact opposite of what Vette owners say prevents other cars from being comparable. That's called hypocrisy.

Re:So, the system works?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, there should be a law that forces Hollister's to cater to your price range. Also, I want a Mercedes, and I find it ridiculous that I can't get a date with a Playboy bunny. Obama has failed me once again.

Re:So, the system works?

[Anonymous Coward]

Newegg.com

Re:So, the system works?

[Anonymous Coward]

The biggest Achilles heel for Walmart is their supply management - it fucking sucks, and so does their checkout experience. I cannot go to a Walmart with a list longer than two items without them being out of at least 33% of the items on my list, and more than once I've dropped all my shit at the front of the store and walked out after getting a glimpse of the checkout lines. I do not shop there for that reason alone. It gets really exasperating going to a store with a fist full of money to spend and their shelves are empty and the checkout lines long.

If you could create a Walmart that wasn't always out of shit and had enough checkers to keep the lines smaller than three people, I'd pay a price premium for that.

Re:So, the system works?

[cayenne8]

"So, maybe a better question is...why would anyone in the US particularly CARE what the world view of sports cars are?

And people wonder why the rest of the world hates us...."

Well, it is easy to see that opinion. I mean, I try to keep up somewhat with world events, etc. But in all honesty, there is very little that goes on in this world, that even remotely touches my day to day life. Sure, occasionally, there is some catastrophic occurance...but for the most part, if I never listened again to a news report on something happening outside the US, I could likely pretty easily never see my life change here and it wouldn't affect me at all.

I've been outside the US, and it was fun. But for most people, what other countries do they go to? We're only touching 2 of them. This isn't like Europe, where you can cross a couple of countries in a day in a car, and they all touch multiple countries. In the US, most people haven't even been to all 50 states. The county here is big, and fairly isolated from the rest of the world. For the most part, what happens in the rest of the world very seldom has any perceptible affect on the average US citizen's life. With that being the case, it is easy to see why most of us don't really pay attention to what the rest of the world wants or thinks.

Re:So, the system works?

[QuantumPion]

Harleys have a market that is entirely separate from the rest of the motorcycle market. There are generally no reasons to explain why someone who bought a Harley did so. They just do it because they think HD is "the real thing". It's hilarious to hear a group of them talk about how they much they spent on a big, slow, unreliable bike. The purchases all rest on "the tradition", "the feel", "the prestige", etc... nothing with any basis in reality.

Now, you'll hear them retort today about how reliability is much better than it used to be, and it has gotten better, but it's still nowhere near that of basically any other brand. They are intentionally using an antiquated engine design with 1950s tech and marketing like anything more advanced "ain't shit". I mean, they are still air cooled for goodness sake...

HD is the greatest case of drone marketing in world history. They have a militant user base willing to pay a premium price for a product that is inferior in every quantifiable way. Not only this, but they spend trillions on cheap chinese trinkets just because they carry the logo.

It's not like the premium clothing outlets where the product is better, but not in proportion to the price. It's even greater than that.

Sounds exactly like Bose's corporate strategy as well. Make a crappy cheap product marked up 10,000% and fool people into buying it based on brand name recognition.

Re:So, the system works?

[StikyPad]

I've had no trouble with Amazon; what you describe sounds more like eBay.

I had a book not arrive from Amazon -- wasn't in the box with the other books. I called Amazon, and they shipped out a replacement, no questions asked. The book arrived the next day... then the replacement arrived two days later. Apparently the original books were shipped in separate shipments, but there was no record of that anywhere. I called them back and told them what happened, and they just told me to keep both copies, so I gave it to a friend.

Re:So, the system works?

[Anonymous Coward]

This is why I tend to avoid walmart when I can. I can get similar pricess and generally better service at targets if i'm going low end. If I'm trying to get name brand stuff i'll generally go to the mall or upper scale outlet areas. I don't buy things because of the brand name, I buy what I see as better quality, better material, obvious signs there was attention paid to detail and it's not going to fall apart after 6 months of use.

Re:So, the system works?

[rapturizer]

As the owner of an older (well built) house, I went to Lowes to find a couple of parts to fix a 60 year old laundry faucet. The manager of the plumbing department looked at them and sent me over to the local hardware store. His comments, first, they sure don't build faucets that well any more (he thought if taken care of, they should last another 60+ years) and that the big box stores just don't carry parts for older items. The owner of the local hardware store backed that up when he told me that since most the houses in the area were built in the same couple eras (1920's - 1950's) he specifically stocked that parts needed for that age of house.

Re:So, the system works?

[MoonBuggy]

I don't know if this is how the GP intended it, but I read that as a comment on business vs. economy - the 'product' is the same: transportation from A to B, but the price is (often vastly) higher if you want to have better service and comfort throughout. It's a decent example of established companies putting a dollar value on the customer's overall experience.

Re:So, the system works?

[Anonymous Coward]

No, they take a dive because current pricing (before announcing end of year result) already accounted for the expected growth. If the growth turns out to be less than expected, the market immediately corrects the price - hence the dive.

Re:So, the system works?

[jonbryce]

It is because shareholders require a certain return on their investment. If the share price was priced at an appropriate yield for a $175m profit, and the company only makes $150m profit, then the share price must fall by 14.3% to maintain the required yield.

Re:So, the system works?

[Anonymous Coward]

Feel lucky if your best buy clowns had showered this week.

The ones around here, smell like nerd-B.O. so bad I can't stand to go there. Even if it means being sure I know what I am getting online by looking at it first.

I know 'nerds' have that rep, but these guys DON"T KNOW ANYTHING USEFUL whereas the nerd does.

The only thing Best Buy has going for them is market penetration and ubiquitous store locations, they are sitting on the rim of the spiral and one bad quarter is going to send them down the hole along with CompUSA and the other big "electronic" stores.

Re:So, the system works?

[tophermeyer]

It might be an evil big box chain, but it pays taxes and keeps several dozen jobs in my town. That's definitely better than consolidating those jobs at some online retailers remote distribution center (better for my town anyway).

Re:So, the system works?

[jonbryce]

Using tinfoil etc to block the signals is OK. The only thing that is banned is transmitting on those frequencies yourself without a licence

Re:So, the system works?

[balbus000]

I was planning on posting this while reading the GP's comment.

My relatives jokingly pronounce it Tar-jay, (frech-like) to make it sound more chic.

Re:So, the system works?

[Pojut]

I'd like to thank everyone who's responded to my OP...I've got a much better understanding now of why this craziness goes on.

I still think it's stupid :p But seriously though, thanks for educating me rather than just flaming me. I really do appreciate it.

Re:So, the system works?

[Eponymous Coward]

We were talking more about capitalism from the perspective of a consumer in the system. In the morning when I'm deciding if I want to make coffee at home or pick some up on my way to the office, I'm not trying to generate revenue or necessarily keep my costs down. Convenience, quality, and social factors enter in to the equation. Different businesses satisfy those goals in different ways, and the lowest cost option (make at home) isn't always going to win.

I do agree though that the current IP laws have created a system where patents are more stifling than encouraging to innovation.

Re:So, the system works?

[kaatochacha]

I used to work at a Ski and Sports shop in the Early 80s, in Southern California: Sandy's Ski and Sports. We had a bunch of ski bums that worked in the shop, and if you walked in they'd set you up with whatever you needed, and would give good advice on where to go, etc. After a while, a lot of people would come in, get recommendations, then go off to Sports Chalet to buy for a slight discount. Which eventually drove Sandy's out of business. Eventually this might happen to all brick and mortar shops. and then what if factories start selling direct, and amazon gets cut out ( other than for people to buy, and then return stuff). It's a crappy sort of road to go down.

Re:So, the system works?

[BigSes]

Just because a store says it always has the low price in its advertisement, it doesn't make it true.

I believe the slogan is actually "Always Low Prices" and if you ask me, that's very non-commital. Probably for that exact reason, so nobody can attempt to legally to hold them to having the lowest price.

Re:So, the system works?

[Anonymous Coward]

Okay so I went to the Canadian web sites of Porsche and Chev.

Boxter (not the S)
255 hp
5.9 seconds (0-100 kph)
$58K CAD

2011 Corvette Base (1SA)
$59,685 (currently 9K credit) CAD
430 hp
4.3 0-60 mph (quickly found on Wikipedia.. probably need a better source)

Approximately the same price. Do they have the same performance? Doesn't look like it. Do they have the same build quality? Probably not. I am sure the Porsche is better built.

FYI... Top Gear is not the be all and end all of car reviews.

How much does a 2011 base Boxter cost where you are? In Euros or $.

Price, performance and availability all factor in when buying a car. If I can't get the car & drive it on a road where I live, it might as well not exist.

Re:So, the system works?

[Anonymous Coward]

No, no, no - capitalism does not require that - Wall Street does!

Re:So, the system works?

[LWATCDR]

But it becomes a race to the bottom.
Think about it. You go to a nice store that spent money on nice displays, They pay their staff well enough that they educate themselves on the product. Those costs must be added into the price. So you shop there and take up the sales person time and then thank them. You pull out your barcode reading smart phone and find you can get the same TV for $100 less at the warehouse store 20 miles away. So you pull in grab the cardboard box and put it on your cart and go home.
Soon there is only the warehouse store.
 

Re:So, the system works?

[phantomcircuit]

It's the taxes stupid.

If companies stop expanding and simply generate profits they pay 35% corporate income tax on said profits, and then their investors pay income tax on the dividends.

If companies constantly reinvest their profits they pay no corporate income tax, and their investors pay 15% long term capital gains tax.

So ~30% on top of 35% or 15%, gee I wonder why they're constantly expanding.

Re:So, the system works?

[Maxo-Texas]

There is only one Rowling. There are many talented writers with other series.

I have no problem with her asking whatever she wants.

And I have no problem with putting my money into other areas.

Coffee is 4x more expensive. Starbucks gets a premium price but normal coffee is a buck.

Computers are a special case- not a stable market since your childhood. but their prices have been basically stable for the last 10 years. $300 for a cheap one, $1000 for a good one, and $2000 for a high end one (and as always a sprinkling of folks who pay $5000ish).

Re:So, the system works?

[GameboyRMH]

For some reason, "not expanding" is the same thing as "a business slowly dying"

That's only true for publicly-traded companies, where growth is required to generate profit for the shareholders. In a privately held company, you just have to turn a profit, that's why they're generally better for customers and employees.

Re:So, the system works?

[Capt.DrumkenBum]

My brother has a 5 year old Harley, and I have a 30 year old Honda CB900 Custom. On a riding trip we will occasionally switch off and ride each others bikes, so I can tell you having ridden both the Harley has something, I do not know what, but it is special.
That said my 30 year old Honda is smother, quieter, easier to ride, more reliable, and sexier.
For example: The day I picked up my CB900, my brother and I went for a ride. We stopped at a bar where a lot of motorcyclists stop, and within minutes I had 3 guys checking out my bike and ignoring the two Harley's parked next to it.

Re:So, the system works?

[Anonymous Coward]

And comes with a horrible layout that puts everything you came in for in the back corner, half-sized check outs without fully staffing all of them even during peak hours ( I expect there to be a full staff when day workers get off - they are going to do their shopping then if they didn't already during the day - just look at a grocery store ).

They sell good stuff and I can usually find what I am looking for at a reasonable price, but I hate the person who designed the layout of the stores near me.

captcha: spender

Re:So, the system works?

[LWATCDR]

Bull.
Harley Davidsons are cruiser style bikes. Just as with many products the look is important. They are now very reliable and user electronic fuel injection and the new Twin Cam 88s are very modern engines.
I love how you say they are air cooled for goodness sakes... Yea that is one of their features.
They are very low bother bikes with belt drive, hydraulic lifters, and air cooling. BTW over head cam water cooled engines are actually 1920s tech 1930s max.
You can get parts for just about any Harley ever made. Try and get parts for a 67 Honda sometime.
Just like BMW boxer owners and Ducati Demo owners they love the good things about the bikes and ignore the bad all in the name of character.
Don't even start talking about Old Norton, Triumph, and BSA owners!
I could go on and on on motorcycles like how the Supersports are now at the level of insane and usless.
Drop the hate dude. Someone buying a nice Harley Road King that has lots of 3rd party support and good resale isn't any more stupid than someone buying a ZX-10r that they can never ride at even 50% of it's ability on the road without being dead or in jail! Not to mention that in two years it will be yesterdays news and a new faster one will be out and the ZX-10 will have lost well over %50 of it's value.
They are both choices and honestly ones that have everything to do with emotions and very little with practicality.
BTW the bikes I like are.
Harley Davidson XR1200.
Honda CBR250 and CB1000.
Kawasaki Ninja 650, 250, 1000, Z1000 KLR650 and Versys.
Suzuki VStrom 650 and 1000
Yamaha Super Tenere,
Ducati Multistrada and Monsters.
Triumph Tiger 1050, SprintGT, and all of their classic line.
BMW FS800ST.
The new Royal Enfield Bullet.
I have never road a Guzi so I have no opinion on them.
As you can see I like a lot of different bikes and the only reason I do not like the super sports is because I like long rides and I am too old to have my knees and elbows touch for any length of time.
But most of you complaints about Harley are old, outdated, and frankly just show a lack of understanding.

 

Re:So, the system works?

[tjb]

So other countries put absurd tariffs on Corvettes and that's somehow Chevy's fault?

Re:So, the system works?

[Anonymous Coward]

You sir are obviously very ignorant of the automotive market.

The Corvette ZR1 is $120K because it lapped the German Nürburgring race course in a time far faster than exotic Lamborghini's, Ferrari's, and Porsche's priced from $250k to over $1 million (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%BCrburgring_lap_times). Even the base model Corvette outperforms a $80K Porsche 911 at a price of only $48k (http://www.porsche.com/usa/models/911/ & http://www.chevrolet.com/corvette-family/). The Chevrolet Corvette is verified performance bargain that has gone head to head with the most expensive sports cars since the second generation model (http://buyersguide.roadandtrack.com/chevrolet/corvette/2010/chevrolet-corvette-zr1). In fact in recent comparison by Motor Trend magazine the Corvette ZR1 delivered superior handling performance to the much more expensive 911 (Turbo http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/1011_2011_chevrolet_corvette_zr1_2010_porsche_911_turbo_comparison/index.html)

The Corvette is not plastic either, the ZR1 has extensive use of carbon fiber to reduce weight and it employs exotic ceramic brakes that last the life of the vehicle. (http://autos.msn.com/research/vip/review.aspx?year=2010&make=Chevrolet&model=Corvette&cp-documentid=612064)

The only knock on the Corvette is that the interior is out of date is no longer competitive. However, this vehicle is marketed as a high performance sports car, not a luxury vehicle.

As for the status comment, that is also false. The Corvette is a Chevrolet which is GM's mainstream brand. For premium vehicles GM uses Cadillac. I suggest that you do your research first before making such statements.

Re:So, the system works?

[Anonymous Coward]

You're welcome. It's nice to get someone who is genuinely interested in how a business runs and what the challenges involved are.

Re:So, the system works?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sky is falling mantra from industry. And you fell for it.

Shoppers are comparing prices with other stores. How is that different from shopping around? How is that any different from what is already done? It is just a more efficient way to do things.

This is has been touted as the information age for how long now?

When is business going to get it in their fucking head that the world is changing and if they want a place in it they need to either start offering quality or quantity and stop scamming for the capitalist profit margins they've come to feel they have a right to.

This is plain and simply another bunch of people that cannot and do not want to keep up with a changing world.

Yours truly,
The internets RIAA Hate club. Aka the internets.

Re:So, the system works?

[PitaBred]

Just remember that you're not buying books on your Kindle, you're only renting them indefinitely and Amazon reserves the right to take it back whenever it wants to.

Re:So, the system works?

[Venzor]

Actually, I had a recent incident where my package was stolen. I spoke to UPS (whose fault it really was for leaving the package on the porch in a not-so-great neighborhood), and they blew me off and told me to talk to Amazon. I was aggravated because it was their fault, but when I contacted Amazon, they were polite, helpful, and sent me a duplicate of my order via Next Day Air. There was absolutely zero hassle dealing with Amazon.

Though I do hope they went after UPS.

Re:So, the system works?

[PitaBred]

It's not an American phenomenon. It's a phenomenon that happens when people have a lot of disposable income.

I'm tired of this "Americans suck" bullshit. People suck, it doesn't matter where you come from.

Re:So, the system works?

[karnal]

I bought a Yamaha 950 this past year - the engine is frankly pretty smooth; well as smooth as a v-twin will get. There's some vibration through the floorboards at highway speeds, but I just put my feet up on the highway pegs and it's all good.

I've ridden near Harleys and it amazes me even at 45mph or so you can physically see the headlight shakin'. I can't believe that would be fun after an hour or so. Must be because of the offset firing/cams whatever that cause the Harley to produce that sound.

Re:So, the system works?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds a bit like Target but even they seems to slip up depending on what area it is in, I have been to some targets that seem lower end so to speak.

Re:So, the system works?

[Fulcrum of Evil]

Wait, those all sound like big chain stores - do you have any clothing stores that are either upmarket or somewhat independent? I'm in seattle and that sort of variety is nice to have.

Re:So, the system works?

[Nethemas the Great]

Ah yes, but first you must find this fabled Keyboard of Life...

Re:So, the system works?

[rickb928]

Bear in mind that sometimes your enemy chooses you. Maybe for good reasons, at least to them, but it happens.

Yes, we've managed to export much of our manufacturing base. This is costing us.

Re:So, the system works?

[Anonymous Coward]

*waves from Paducah*

Re:So, the system works?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not sure "the rest of the world" hates us nearly as much as you seem to.

Re:So, the system works?

[caseih]

What's wrong with buy.com? I've bought thousands of dollars worth of things from them over the years and never had a problem with the wrong item or being charged differently than I expected. I've never had to return anything to them, so I can't speak to that.

Re:So, the system works?

[mattack2]

If a restaurant had better food, a nicer atmosphere and cheaper prices, wouldn't you frequent that place as well?

(I didn't RTFA.. but at least from the summary..)

This doesn't mean frequenting the better place.. This means going to the place with worse food and/or a worse atmosphere and/or more expensive prices, walking around and crowding up the place (and possibly ending up using some of the worse place's employees' time), then leaving without buying anything. Heck, if they've got WiFi, they're even paying for your WiFi and you're not buying anything from them.

Basically, I can see their point. I *try* not to "go and browse in a store, then buy online", for this very reason. Sometimes if I see a book in a store, I'll wait for the paperback, and thus indirectly do this (since I'd likely get it from Amazon at that point). Though even when I bought way more books, it was from what I'd call the Amazon of the bricks & mortar world -- Crown Books. (Way cheaper than most bookstores, though they didn't carry absolutely everything.) Even for a TV, hopefully Fry's will have close-enough-to-online prices to get it from a store where I'm actually browsing the TVs.

Re:So, the system works?

[Capt.DrumkenBum]

You forgot the most important thing about Corvettes.

Everyone who sees you driving it assumes that you have a really really really small penis.

Re:So, the system works?

[scourfish]

Speaking as a nerd, you should be fully aware that correlation does not nessecarily mean causation.

Re:So, the system works?

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh it works. You just never specified for who.

Re:So, the system works?

[Anonymous Coward]

Me, too. I've always been able to tell if someone is watching TV in the house as I come up to the door. Now, unfortunately, I've also got tinnitus and sometimes I can't tell them apart, but that's another story. . .

Re:So, the system works?

[VJ42]

Interesting. It's quite the opposite here.

We have two VATs in existance. One "common" one for all goods and a "reduced" one (pretty much half VAT) for some others. The idea of the reduced VAT is that there are certain goods of everyday need that you should not be taxed heavily on, to make living affordable. Hence that reduced VAT applies generally to food and rent.

And to books.

Don't ask me why, but books are apparently seen as essential for your living.

Here in the UK, for reasons similar to those you describe, we have three rates: standard, reduced and zero; books are zero rated here.

Re:So, the system works?

[Anonymous Coward]

Let me guess.... never driven a Corvette?

Last car I thought I'd buy (expat Brit) but there is nothing out there to touch it for sheer driving fun. Try to name a car for the same money that is better. Base Boxter performs like crap, 370z feels like a souped up maxima that's gonna break on you, Mustang GT500 corners like crap, Lotus Elise has the build quality of something my dad made in his shed, Mercedes CLK is for 70 year old ladies. Drove them all, one clear winner for me.

Pulls > 1g lateral, 0-60 in 4.5 seconds, hell of a lot of fun, had one for over 3 years with no problems at all. Sure, 20 years ago they were a POS but not now. Oh and yes and the body is plastic, it helps reduce weight.

Like many American consumers you assume everyone else's products are better without comparing first. Drive a Toyota?

Re:So, the system works?

[VJ42]

The difference is that you can actually SEE that the goods are damaged at the time you pick them up, before you'd actually buy them. You can avoid taking an item that has been damaged or removed from its wrapping and instead get one that hasn't.

With delivery services, you already paid and bought the item, essentially the deal's been closed. You can now try to return it and exchange it for an undamaged good, i.e. send it back, wait for the new item to arrive and hope it ain't damaged.

Buying off the 'net counts as distance selling, which in turn means I have a seven days from when I receive the item to send it back just because I feel like it: http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Governmentcitizensandrights/Consumerrights/DG_183048

Re:So, the system works?

[Capt.DrumkenBum]

It took me a while to learn this, but you are SO right.
Any time I have bought clothes at walmart I have discovered that the "great deal" I thought I was getting was not so great once I washed the clothes a couple of times, and they shrunk, fell apart, or just looked like shit coming out of the dryer. I gave up and started buying clothes for more expensive retailers, these clothes have seem to be much more durable. So I get to waste less time shopping for clothes.

Re:So, the system works?

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you misunderstood. GP is saying saying that foreign tariffs bump up the price of the 'vette dramatically, making it less appealing in foreign markets.

US tariffs on imported cars are 2.5%, raising the price of a $60,000 'vette competitor to $61,500. Not sure that slants the field all that much.

How 'bout this: People buy cars for different reasons. Some people are stupid, and buy cars for stupid reasons. Others aren't, and don't.

For the record, I'd never even consider one, but I can see their appeal as an entry level racer for the HP freak.

Re:So, the system works?

[yurtinus]

Fair enough, but I don't have much in my house labeled "Made by Al Queida"

Re:So, the system works?

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

Speaking as a nerd, you should be fully aware that correlation does not nessecarily mean causation.

As a nerd, I try to be precise especially about phrases that are bandied about by people who never think about the topic. Correlation does not imply any specific causation, but does imply some causation is at work, whether it is factor A causing B, B causing A, C causing A and B, or something more complex. Most of modern science is about noticing correlations and creating hypothesis around potential causations and testing them.

As for correlation and causation in this specific case, some of the many studies I provided (and which you likely did not have the time to read) show very definite causation as they saw something that did happen and used that to predict what would happen when new Walmarts were opened. I suspect you have an opinion and are going to find a way to justify it regardless of objective facts. I hope that is not the case, but it certainly is a common phenomenon. Most people who read a scientific study are more convinced of whatever opinion they previously held, because most people don't apply a rigorous methodology to the forming of opinions, only as a way to try to defend whatever opinion they have.

Re:So, the system works?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm too lazy to create an account.

There's nothing wrong with an air cooled motorcycle, I'm sure there are many who agree. I personally do not care for HD, I ride a Buell, which uses a Harley-based motor. I've had some reliability problems, yes, but I'm sure there are many who have not (hooray for anecdotes!). Yes, the engine design (pushrod, air cooled) is rather antiquated, but I like it. It uses hydraulic lifters (no valve adjustments like many contemporary sportbikes), gets 60+ mpg when I ride it nice (hardly ever!), and is remarkably easy to work on. I'm rebuilding the top end over the winter, 50K miles and some stuff was worn. I'm replacing all the wear-items even if they're not to their service limit because all the internals are quite cheap.

tl;dr: Air cooled motorcycles are just fine.

Re:So, the system works?

[adolf]

Define "city."

I live in a town of about 38k people in what most city-folk would consider "rural Ohio". It's not so big. Some evenings when the weather is nice, I'll walk from one end to the other and back.

We've got two Wal-Marts, one on each side of town. They're often busy.

We've also got two Kroger stores, a Meijer, Aldies, two franchises worth of a locally-owned regional grocer (that is actually growing, and doing very well in the market), a Thai store, a Mexican store, two beer stores, a wine store, two liquor stores, and GFS. Most of these, aside from the more specialized stores toward the end of the list, are also very busy.

That's about it for food. We've also got a handful of electronics dealers (big, local, and regional), all of whom seem to be doing OK. And a whole bunch of places that sell clothes. And several pet stores, a couple of book stores, and. and. and.

I don't feel that I'm shy on available choices at all. And I find that it's often cheaper to buy food, clothes, or whatever at almost any other place than it is to do so at Wal-Mart, though I feel no shame in buying things from Wal-Mart when I find their pricing to be more agreeable.

*shrug*

Re:So, the system works?

[rickb928]

Al Aqueida doesn't use the same tactics as some of our other enemies. No more or less dangerous, perhaps.

Re:So, the system works?

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course because no one buys a high powered world beating sports car because it's fast. You're just trolling against the American auto industry. The Corvette ZR1 is carbon fiber, so there goes the plastic theory.

Re:So, the system works?

[winwar]

"Getting info in your local store, then going online and buying what they recommend cheaper. You essentially cheat the businessman that way. He gave you a service, his expertise, and his price reflects that."

I think it is very important to support businesses that provide real expertise and service. Which unfortunately for many local businesses do not include them (chain or otherwise). One of the primary reasons I buy from the internet is not price but for expertise and service (not that the price isn't nice). I don't know that local businesses can always compete-after all, it's easy to be an expert and draw customers from the entire US online. Having said that, many businesses seem to think that they are somehow entittled to business because they are local. Even though they have the same or worse service and expertise than the chains. In which case the chains are going to win (when they don't lose out to the internet). And competing on price pretty much attracts people who will go elsewhere to save a buck. Live by price, die by price.

Re:So, the system works?

[winwar]

Is this a function of Walmart? Or any large box store that is not locally owned? And ultimately, so what?

It's pretty obvious that local stores close. Despite all of the complaints about big box stores, they are superior to most local businesses in most of the ways that people care about (service, price, selection, convenience, etc.) It might be harmful in the long run but we are really bad at long term thinking.

Re:So, the system works?

[winwar]

"So order nicer stuff. I do that just to get t-shirts that last, jeans that don't suck and whole host of other things."

It would be nice to not to have to special order those things. I've noticed the cheap mass market products of 20 years ago hold up much better than the cheap products of today.

Re:So, the system works?

[Anonymous Coward]

As an example, let's look at Corvettes and Harleys. On the world stage, the Corvette is generally considered a crap, plastic car. It sells well in the US because of its American heritage and perceived prestige. The reality is, a much, much better car can be had for the money.

I'm not a Corvette/GM fan, but the one thing the Corvette does give you is high performance for the price. If you're an American looking for the fastest possible car US$60,000 or so can buy, then you'll end up with a Corvette. It's a noisy, harsh, cheaply built, unreliable rocket that can outrun cars twice the price.

Re:So, the system works?

[winwar]

"My experience has been that really expensive clothing lasts a lot longer than the moderately expensive stuff."

The problem with clothing is that it is very difficult to determine durability from price. Basic low end clothing has declined in quality over many decades. And moderately priced clothing seems to be nothing more than low end clothing with a higher price tag. No wonder people buy on price (or the clearance rack).

Re:So, the system works?

[winwar]

"One thing that has happened that a lot of people don't like to talk about is that a lot of sub-par small businesses have also shut down."

This cannot be repeated too often. While we may consider big box stores awful, many small businesses were even worse. Just like the good old days, they were never as good as we remembered.

Re:So, the system works?

[telomerewhythere]

HEB? That's a good store. I like it because nowhere else have I found such a selection of beers.

Re:So, the system works?

[winwar]

"Lowest price isn't the only qualification for a happy customer, but it is the only criteria on the Internet."

You are simply incorrect. I order from the internet primarily because of selection and service. Price is not a primary driver unless it is truly significant. In which case we are back to service (treating the customer fairly). Buying online is an indication of a failure of local business.

Re:So, the system works?

[telomerewhythere]

No, No, and No. NYC is New York City, New York, USA, and there are no Walmarts in the five boroughs. There are a few out of the actual city limits, but not inside. We are talking about the "Walmart" that Sam Walton started and and now has gone so far from his ideal. None in NYC

Re:So, the system works?

[jp10558]

I've noticed this in just about every arena I've managed to do research on - especially now on the web where it's easy to find (well, usually it is anyway) some user forums where actual users post. Another great example is Kitchen-aid mixers. I mean, it's top quality right? Well, not so much, it's now owned by Whirlpool and Amazon shows something like a 30% failure rate within months by reviews even of the $450 pro versions. The generally quality stand mixers by forum posts etc? The almost unheard of Bosch Universal Plus or Electrolux DLX.

That all said, I do still use a brand I find to be good as a shortcut to finding acceptable new products. Maybe not the best, but consistently quality. The important part is not to assume that a brand that was quality 20 years ago still is today. Look at Maytag :( ...

I've found that you can usually get about 5 years out of an evaluation before you have to do the research again to see if the brand has held up its standards.

Re:So, the system works?

[jp10558]

Well, I suppose you might care what the best tool for a job is that's available. And limiting your view to just American (stuff?? - not sure how to clarify this well) means you're missing out on a lot. It's like assuming the best a computer can get for ANYTHING is Windows 7 because that's what "most" people use, and the best browser is IE8 (because it's better than the other Microsoft ones). You're really missing a lot if you limit your field of info that way. Also, statistically speaking, I think (not being a statistician and open to being educated if I'm wrong) the larger sample size will tend to give more significant results an be more likely to be "correct". "Correct" in that if 1,000 of 10,000 people find something good but 20,000 of 100,000 people who are a superset of the first sample find something bad, it's more likely you'll also find that something to be bad.

I don't know if it's smart to base most of my car ratings on Consumer Reports and Top Gear, but hey, they do look at cars from around the world. And the only decent Corvette they reviewed (Top Gear) was the $100K one. For that price, I think you have to consider the Nissan GTR at the very least. If not a low-range Porsche 911 or mid Aston Martin, BMW, etc...

Re:So, the system works?

[jp10558]

Less money, maybe not, but within spitting distance is the Nissan GTR:
http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-trucks/Nissan_GT-R/ - $79,796

The Z06 is $70,502 so not THAT much cheaper especially when compared with the performance of the GTR.
http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-trucks/Chevrolet_Corvette-Z06/

The Corvette ZR1 which is the one close in performance to the GTR is $101,106
http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-trucks/Chevrolet_Corvette-ZR1/

For the basic Corvette at $46,927
http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-trucks/Chevrolet_Corvette/Performance/

You may want to compare the Subaru Impreza WRX at $24,316
http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-trucks/Subaru_Impreza-WRX/

Heck, if you find the straight WRX to not be in the league for the base corvette, you could upgrade to the STI version which is ~ $33,995.

Re:So, the system works?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd rather stop at walmart and buy everything I need than have to drive around town to multiple stores and pay higher prices. YMMV

Re:So, the system works?

[linhares]

I read you, and think you are on target. Yet, because there seems to be only downsides to the opening of a WallMart, I believe these studies might have some sort of bias. So poverty grows? Here's an alternative explanation: perhaps poor people in the vicinity try to move closer to WallMart, and so their lives improve. At any rate, my point is that this whole negative scenarion cannot be as simple as it looks like. We should always look for alternative explanations and interpretations.

Re:So, the system works?

[Opportunist]

The main advantage shopping on the internet has is the full transparency. Pretty much what this article is about and what was lacking so far in B&M stores.

When you're shopping on the internet, it is trivial to instantly compare prices. Hell, there are dedicated webpages just for that. You can also instantly compare features and check reviews. That's what is coming to the local stores now, with smartphone-equipped people doing just that when they're standing in the B&M stores.

Expertise and advice has always, at least so far, been the forte of the local stores. And most people (geeks, I'm NOT talking about you!) prefer to speak with a person face to face, rather than chat with them through an IRC or java chat client. This is the strong point of local stores, and it is, at least in my opinion, their reason to exist.

If someone takes that expertise and then goes and buys at a "cheaper" online store, he will eventually take away this expertise becasue the shop will have to close, it's not possible to pay the store rent from dispensing advice.

Re:So, the system works?

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

You must be unlucky

Well, as the old saying goes, once is bad luck, twice is coincidence, but three times is enemy action. Of course I can't really generalise my bad experiences with Amazon to the entire world, or even the entire country since I'm really talking about amazon.co.uk here. On the other hand, roughly every other order I have placed containing books over the past couple of years has had some item noticeably damaged on delivery, either due to careless packaging or probably in some cases due to not being stored carefully. Moreover, literally everyone I know who has been ordering from Amazon this Christmas season has had absurd delays in delivery and no meaningful contact from Amazon to explain/apologise. At some point, you stop believing that you're just the unlucky one at the wrong extreme on the curve.

Re:So, the system works?

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

As a dancer, I would laugh if any store tried that on me.

The trouble with dancing shoes is that you can't just judge them by the appearance. Comfort is a very personal thing in this market, and some shoes look great but are terribly badly made and will cut your foot to shreds if worn often for dancing. There is no way you can tell that just from looking at them.

Trying shoes on in a store and then buying them somewhere else is one (possibly unethical) thing, but trying shoes on in a store and then not buying them at all because they aren't actually very good is the manufacturer's/shop's problem.

Re:So, the system works?

[IHateEverybody]

'This is going to accelerate the demise of retailers who do not have either competitive pricing or a standout store experience.'

Be creative? Negotiate better wholesale costs so that you can offer your customers lower prices? If not, someone else will. Isn't that capitalism?

I thought Capitalism was where you lose a trillion dollars betting on Credit Default Swaps and get bailed out by the government.

Re:So, the system works?

[Polo]

Hmmm... Computers have probably done the same sorts of things to local economies by removing the need for file clerks and secretaries.

Re:So, the system works?

[Charcharodon]

I'm a firm believer in they can "Go fuck their mothers" when it comes to DRM.

My books are already stored safely away along with all my music and movies on the home server.

Re:So, the system works?

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

However, you do actually have to send it back in that case, which almost certainly means a trip to the Post Office for most of us. Given that it is a similar amount of hassle for me to get to a "local" Post Office these days as it is to get into the city centre and browse in a book store, the Distance Selling regs aren't really worth that much to me in practice.

On a related note, any time I get a delivery from Amazon, I'm stuck making sure either that there is someone around at home full time to accept the delivery if it's too big for the letter box or that I can afford the time and hassle of going out to the mail depot to pick up the parcel if they tried to deliver it when I was out. We don't all work in offices that are staffed full-time by someone who can sign for someone else's package on delivery.

Re:So, the system works?

[JohnBailey]

Simple rule.
Don't buy Christmas gifts online after October.

I made the mistake once.

Re:So, the system works?

[Anonymous Coward]

"not expanding" hasn't flown in the last twenty years because of cheap money (artificially low interest rates) from the Fed. When money isn't so cheap anymore, expansion for its own sake will go by the wayside and focus will redirect to profitability. I say this as a private business owner that has not expanded much in 20 years and has seen the rise of several national competitors whose business models are largely based on debt.

There are three things that count in business - Cost, Quality, and Delivery. Pick 2 to focus on and don't try to do all 3 at once. Ours are quality (of product and services) and delivery.

Re:So, the system works?

[toddestan]

I'd add B&H to that list.

Re:So, the system works?

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

I read you, and think you are on target. Yet, because there seems to be only downsides to the opening of a WallMart, I believe these studies might have some sort of bias.

Actually it lists several studies that show pros of Walmarts, but for the most part, those studies were later debunked, like the one that concluded it did not harm local business, but only studied four types of businesses included weirdly selected ones like antique shops.

So poverty grows? Here's an alternative explanation: perhaps poor people in the vicinity try to move closer to WallMart, and so their lives improve.

I know it seems crazy, but have you considered reading the study you're proposing a hypothesis about? It actually shows almost the opposite. Walmarts result in less people moving. In many counties when people have only crappy work options or no work options they move, somewhat moderating the poverty in the area and in general. With Walmart, people don't move because they have just enough to scrape by working part time for terrible wages and people aren't willing to take a huge risk and move when they have the bare necessities. At the same time, wages in the area become depressed as more and more as Walmart's hiring scheme, to hire lots of part tie workers with minimal benefits and an average income below full time minimum wage as a result, replacing full time minimum wage and up incomes from the businesses closing.

At any rate, my point is that this whole negative scenarion cannot be as simple as it looks like. We should always look for alternative explanations and interpretations.

Certainly we should consider other hypothesis and do more research, but we should first pay attention to what has been done so far so that we come into it from an informed perspective. Also, as a person who understands science, we should form our opinions based upon the current scientific consensus. The most supported theory is most likely true, but new data can always change what is most supported. This contrasts with the illogical decision making process of forming a belief based upon what you want to be true or think is true based upon intuition or think is true based upon your pet, unproven hypothesis... and then trying to find hypothesis or studies that will support your illogical belief.

Re:So, the system works?

[tibman]

Yeah, there are independent place around too, i can't recall the names though. In Louisville (the nearest big city) there are many little clothing shops. Especially along Bardstown Road. But to be honest, i think there are more independent shops in the cities than in the country towns.

Re:So, the system works?

[u38cg]

Hardly a new idea. Most big sports clubs are clothing companies with a nice sideline in football.

Re:So, the system works?

[radish]

For camera stuff, sure - and Adorama too. They tend to be a little high priced for non photo stuff in my experience. Likewise I've never had any problems with J&R and would order from them any day, but they're rarely the best priced.

Re:So, the system works?

[quacking duck]

Not to mention, cheap crap is bad for the environment--both in quantities of material consumed when creating them, and the quantities of material thrown out by the buyer when it breaks down or wears out far earlier than expected.

I needed a nailclipper. I bought it for $2 at the "dollar or two" store. It was unusable right away because the cheap metal was too thin and flexed when applying pressure, and the cutting edges were dull.

The same idea would apply for a frying pan that loses its non-stick coating after one year instead of lasting 5 years with the same frequency of use.

Or a cheap $500 laptop that's already obsolete when released, and will break down in a year, versus a $1000 that will last at least 3 years.

Problem sometimes is, how can you tell when a product is truly better? My examples were trivial, but for any given type of product, Walmart's medium-priced offerings could work and last just as well as a "premium" brand at a more "reputable" store.

Re:So, the system works?

[quacking duck]

This is precisely why Apple doesn't listen to the analysts or even some investors who say they should do things like other big businesses, and instead operates more like you suggest.

Apple doesn't care about the low-end market (the sub-$500 PC/laptop, free phone contracts, or $30 mp3 players), which would greatly expand their market share. Dell is doing great at following analyst expectations--competing on price, cutting operational costs, leading in market share, low inventory--but absolutely crap profit margin to show for it. Yeah, $822M net income last quarter sounds respectable to us, but not when compared against the $15.4B revenue.

And despite defying analyst demands, they still keep exceeding their expectations each quarter.

Re:So, the system works?

[quacking duck]

I did this recently with a TV at Best Buy. The sale price on the one I wanted was close enough to what I could find online.

I was able to actually see the TV, see how it looked, and spin the thing around to look at how the I/O ports are configured. I probably paid a little bit more than I would have online, but I firmly believe that the little extra cost is worth it to keep actual displays available at brick-and-mortar mortar locations.

You can still get tricked into an inferior product. And its wouldn't even be the store's fault.

I got a new LG TV during the Black "Friday" sale (which lasted a week). Turns out the exact same model number can ship with two different screen technologies: either IPS (in-plane switching) or VA (vertical array). Luckily I didn't buy right away and my research dug up not only this fact, but also that IPS is far superior, and that you can tell which are IPS panels based on the full product code stamped on a box label. I made sure this was correct on the box I chose and later verified by inspecting the LCD panel itself (IPS pixels' RGB elements appear as chevrons, instead of vertical bars).

That's me with hours to kill on internet research, no significant other or dependents to take up my time. How can regular consumers be reasonably expected to make sure they're not getting shortchanged?

I got mine at Future Shop (owned by Best Buy in Canada). I already price-matched them $50 + 10% against our version of Circuit City, and found out I could price-match them again against Walmart and get another $55 off. I'd bet dollars to donuts Walmart only has the VA panels, so anyone comparing prices on just the model number won't really be getting the "deal" they think they are.

Re:So, the system works?

[DarkMinds69]

Ehhh, Your just a dumbass key puncher...
I'm a 20 year cycle mechanic...Work on ALL Makes/Models...HD may be overpriced, but reliability is no different than any other make..
I personally ride a 1975 XS650...Yes, Air cooled...and I can Guarantee it will outlast anything you own..

Chris Tulloch

Re:So, the system works?

[BrokenHalo]

Just to clarify my earlier point: we (in Australia) pay the same 10% GST on everything, it's just that books, CDs and DVDs attract a huge rate of import duty which the ultimate purchaser doesn't see, but which forms a large portion of the price, so we pay a tax on another tax.

That kind of thing supposedly wasn't meant to happen when the government introduced the GST, but of course they lied as usual, and now we're stuck with it.

Re:So, the system works?

[Anonymous Coward]

You suckered on the Kindle, my friend. You're better off with the Nook: everything a Kindle is plus the entire advantages of Android.

Re:So, the system works?

[AmiMoJo]

This seems to be a western, maybe even US/UK phenomenon. Actually we hit the bottom of price-over-quality a few years back in the UK and are now seeing a return to "value", but I digress.

In Japan people won't tolerate shoddy goods. Uniqlo is a good example of quality clothing that is fashionable, very very comfortable and reasonably priced. More than 50% of my wardrobe is from there now because they just can't be matched by all the "native" brands like Top Shop, H&M, M&S etc...

In China people don't consider fake goods to be inferior to the real thing. Brands matter very little. People don't care if they are original Levi's as long as they look like Levi's. That isn't all that different to the way things are here when you think about it. High end fashion leads the way and the cheaper end of the market copies them, with people buying based on their ability to pay and desire to flaunt wealth. It just works better in China because there is no stigma attached to shopping at Primark instead of The Gap.

Re:So, the system works?

[AmiMoJo]

I used to work at an independent place, mostly doing computer repairs but also some shop sales. There were basically two kinds of customer, those who just want something and don't mind as long as the cost isn't unreasonable and those who will always just pick the cheapest option. We still managed to do okay though, despite not being able to complete with on-line and out-of-town retailers, because we sold second-hand refurbished PCs which are not the sort of thing you can easily buy on-line. Postage costs on PCs are high and if something doesn't work you have to post it back. We were able to sell them as low as £30 too. I don't think anyone has yet figured out how to do second hand sales well on-line, at least not for retailers (individuals do okay-ish out of eBay, although 90% of stuff on there is new now anyway).

People appropriate being able to talk face to face too. It's easy for us to just buy everything on-line because we know exactly what we want and understand the options, but most people don't know much about computers or broadband. Some people just don't like chain stores, and with good reason when you look at what people like PC World do to drive up sales. I think most people when presented with the product they want at a reasonable price in a shop will usually just buy it, rather than spending time searching different shops and on-line to save a couple of quid. People's time has value.

You get asshats who just phone you up for free advice on the premise that they might buy something and then head straight over to eBay, but by doing stuff that on-line retailers still suck at you can make a go of a physical shop. I think the reason mainstream retailers are finding it hard is that they don't offer any variety. Every down has the same set of shops selling the same stuff where as on-line you have a much better choice. That has knock-on effects because if people don't even go to town in the first place then the independents who do offer something different don't get their custom either.

Re:So, the system works?

[yurtinus]

I spose we'll just disagree on the definition of "enemies" :)

Re:So, the system works?

[rickb928]

If you encountered bullies in school or later, you should know it is not what you think about them that counts, it's what they think about you. You do not always get to choose your enemies. Sometimes you get to choose how to respond.

How we respond is critical.

Re:So, the system works?

[yurtinus]

I don't think either of us know what we're talking about anymore... Historically speaking - over the last 50 years *I* have been the bully, choosing all sorts of people to pick on. Now you're telling me that when I buy a bike from Taiwan, they are bullying me? By building stuff I might want, they are choosing to be an enemy rather than a friend? While I absolutely agree that Americans are happily spending away and killing our own industrial base, calling those nations who are producing the crap we buy our enemies really doesn't make sense to me. It's capitalism at its finest - they can produce the goods cheaper, so we suffer. Problem that most people don't realize is that we are *choosing* to suffer. Taiwan, China, and India aren't our enemies. They may be the ones manufacturing cheap knives, but we are the ones stabbing ourselves with them. Blaming them is just us trying to lash out against our own stupidity.

Re:So, the system works?

[rickb928]

Taiwan is not our enemy. Neither is India.

China, on the other hand, seems to want to succeed us as the dominant economic power. Their words, not mine.

Re:So, the system works?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm curious, given that the Corvette is very clearly a sports car, what much, much better performing car can you get for less money outside of the US?

Re:So, the system works?

[yurtinus]

That doesn't make us enemies - it makes us competitors. Consider how we replaced Britain as the dominant economic power in the middle of the 20th century, and how we still compete and cooperate with the EU today. Last I read the news, China wasn't out blowing up our factories. China wants to be the dominant power? Game on! It isn't exactly their fault if we're blowing up our own factories because we'd rather use theirs. If we can't beat them with our own economy and productive ability, I honestly don't believe we are entitled to beat them with our guns.

Re:So, the system works?

[Anonymous Coward]

Try Costco? They are mostly West Coast US, but I've seen a few of them on the east coast and in London.

Re:So, the system works?

[rickb928]

And you're still thinking 20th century warfare. Who said anything about guns? The grade-school bully used intimidation mostly.

Not that I'm comparing China to grade-school bullies. China is much better at this all this than a grade-schooler.

I'm not saying we haven't also done so for decades. And I'm not trying to keep score of who is right or wrong, and how often. Just pointing out that the world is not all that kind to us, and hasn't been for a long time, whether we deserve it or not. If you think pursuing a policy of behaving better and being kinder to the rest of the world is in our best interest, say so and support those who agree with you. I'm saying that along with a policy of behaving better, we need to also pursue a policy of self-preservation, while trying to avoid doing so in a way that hampers our future prospects. And how to do that, in detail, is beyond me. So be thankful I'm not in power.

Great!

[The MAZZTer]

The retailer's advantage has been eroded

Fine by me.

This is going to accelerate the demise of retailers who do not have either competitive pricing or a standout store experience.

Good riddance.

Re:Great!

[Chrisq]

The problem comes when there are only a few retailers left, many areas having only one close bye and they then put the prices up to a higher level than they were before.

Re:Great!

[Anonymous Coward]

The retailer's advantage has been eroded

Fine by me.

This is going to accelerate the demise of retailers who do not have either competitive pricing or a standout store experience.

Good riddance.

You do understand that small stores cannot possibly compete on price with the likes of Walmart et al, right? It's not a question of greed or a lack of will, it's simple economics. In a world where only the lowest price store could exist you would only have a couple of companies in that sector, period.

And we all know what happens when there is a lack of competition...

Re:Great!

[Anonymous Coward]

either competitive pricing or a standout store experience.

Any local store whose experience is like walmart is a store I already won't shop at.

Re:Great!

[jorenko]

And that's where A Standout Store Experience comes in, if you're only willing to stick it out and read the last quarter of the sentence. Small stores need to have helpful, knowledgeable staff and excellent customer service; enough so to engender extreme customer loyalty.

Re:Great!

[Charcharodon]

But you act as if no one else can open a store again once they are all gone.

A true monopoly is one where no one else is even allowed into the market, such as our crapy phone, cable, and power systems, which are backed by the force of law, or in situations where the last one standing can prevent anyone else from competing.

That is not the case in retail.

If Walmart manages to wipe out everyone else and then starts jacking up the prices, competitors will start springing up all over the place with time forcing them to either become the price leader once again or be wiped out themselves.

Re:Great!

[rjstanford]

And that's where A Standout Store Experience comes in, if you're only willing to stick it out and read the last quarter of the sentence. Small stores need to have helpful, knowledgeable staff and excellent customer service; enough so to engender extreme customer loyalty.

Which is great in theory, and works in larger markets, but if a large percentage of the potential userbase is willing to accept total crap for a $0.03 drop in price, and the total userbase is small enough, then the wonderful store can no longer exist.

Re:Great!

[HeckRuler]

Hence why we buy most of our stuff online.
Sure, we're buying sight-unseen, but there are a lot of reviews out there. Besides, you don't really know a product simply because you can feel it's weight or bang on it once or twice and call it good.

Re:Great!

[Anonymous Coward]

And then someone else moves in to take advantage. The cycle repeats itself.

Children today are tyrants!

Re:Great!

[greed]

And, frankly, buying stuff on-line is just going back to my parents' younger days. Only now, you've got much, much, much more choice.

Back in their youth, you had a few "high street" shops. But if you didn't want to drive down town to the big department store, you ordered from their catalogue. You'd fill out a form and send it in, or call and place your order. In cities, they'd have their own delivery fleet; for rural areas, they'd use parcel post. They even had their own charge cards (not credit: pay it all at the end of the month) so you could get your order without having to wait to mail in a cheque.

So. Moving on a bit, we now have competition at several levels in that stack. With better parcel service from the Post Office, and competing couriers that pretend to be able to handle residential deliveries, just about anyone can ship you something. There are charge, credit and debit cards that can be used on-line, stores don't need their own credit department. (If you want to pretend, there are companies like HSBC or MBNA that will "back" your store-brand credit card.) You don't need to send out paper catalogues: people will actually use their own equipment to view electronic catalogues... which is really just your web site.

So I can price-match between an Ontario-based retailer, a British Columbia-based retailer, and a US-based retailer to get the computer bits I want. (All three actually have at least warehouses in Ontario, so shipping is similar. Only one of them has a retail presence in Ontario.)

Which sure beats choosing between Simpson-Sears and Eaton's.

Re:Great!

[rlwhite]

This ignores how hard it is to start a new business and grow it to a footprint that can compete with a giant like Walmart, and how long most of us would be stuck with no serious alternative while we wait for that to happen. Besides, at the rate our businesses and government are going, Walmart would be granted a legal monopoly after they wipe everyone else out.

Re:Great!

[rjstanford]

But you act as if no one else can open a store again once they are all gone.

A true monopoly is one where no one else is even allowed into the market, such as our crapy phone, cable, and power systems, which are backed by the force of law, or in situations where the last one standing can prevent anyone else from competing.

That is not the case in retail.

If Walmart manages to wipe out everyone else and then starts jacking up the prices, competitors will start springing up all over the place with time forcing them to either become the price leader once again or be wiped out themselves.

Heh. If we all opened stores at the same time, maybe. But if you're going up against Walmart, a multi-national, in the environment that the GP post described, you'd better have deep pockets. If not, they can drop their prices down below cost (actually probably to above their cost but below yours) until you go out of business. Hell, they could just give stuff away until you ran out of money, and make it all up as soon as you closed the doors. The long periods without competition would make up for the short periods of unprofitability.

Frequently, selling lots of stuff below cost is illegal for just those reasons. That discounts the fact that Walmarts wholesale pricing is so much better than yours would be that they wouldn't have to. Its like poker - someone with deep pockets can just outlast the competition, especially if you're not allowed to go all in but they're allowed to keep raising the stakes.

Re:Great!

[Anonymous Coward]

The service economy represents something like 50%+ of the overall job market in the US.

If we start to buy everything online there will be an increase in delivery jobs, but the erosion of service jobs along with the construction jobs will take the lower middle class and stick them straight into the poor class.

Me I like the where wholesalers who buy in greater quantity don't get a bigger discount and the price is fixed. Rats in a maze running around to find the lowest price. If I'm gonna be stuck as a rat I'd prefer to pay higher prices and not be stuck living in a maze.

Re:Great!

[eugene ts wong]

Your response is exactly what I thought of, while I read his. It takes too much investment to start a business, just to compete with Walmart.

In completely unrelated news

[elrous0]

Retailers soon to petition FCC to allow cell-blocking technology in private businesses.

Re:In completely unrelated news

[oh_my_080980980]

Don't think that's not already happening.

Re:In completely unrelated news

[mrsteveman1]

That would never be permitted in public stores, people would stop shopping in them or stop buying as much and rush out of the store sooner, destroying whatever advantage the store gets for erecting a "wall of ignorance".

What if there's a family emergency? What if your kid got hurt at school? You simply can't screw with mobile connectivity anymore, it's too important.

Re:In completely unrelated news

[Anonymous Coward]

What is the matter with you that you can't bear to be out of contact for fifteen minutes?

Re:In completely unrelated news

[Neil Boekend]

I would see such an action as a clear indication that they wish to screw me over with expensive products. I wouldn't buy anything there.

Re:In completely unrelated news

[davidbrit2]

Just build your store out of whatever Meijer uses. I can barely get my phone to work when I'm in their stores. (Which is even funnier when you consider the Meijer Find-It iPhone app that isn't terribly useful, mostly because of the aforementioned problem.)

Re:In completely unrelated news

[jgtg32a]

If they do it at the movie theaters I have no problem with this.

Re:In completely unrelated news

[Antisyzygy]

Happens in some casinos.

Re:In completely unrelated news

[Anonymous Coward]

What did parents and family members do 20 years ago? Just because you have a cell phone, doesn't mean you need to be available 24/7. In fact, I bet more stores will be looking into constructing Faraday cages on purpose....

Re:In completely unrelated news

[Danathar]

You could put up enough metal in your store to make Cell phones all but useless if people wanted.

Re:In completely unrelated news

[Rob the Bold]

That would never be permitted in public stores, people would stop shopping in them or stop buying as much and rush out of the store sooner, destroying whatever advantage the store gets for erecting a "wall of ignorance".

What if there's a family emergency? What if your kid got hurt at school? You simply can't screw with mobile connectivity anymore, it's too important.

Surely there are places in your town with bad network coverage, no? Who's to say the store just isn't one of those places, right? Of course, if you're the store, you don't tell your customers you've specifically chosen building materials that hamper radio transmission in cell phone bands -- it's just a happy coincidence. You don't change your route to work or school just to avoid a valley with poor reception, do you? Likewise, I doubt anyone would change their shopping habits (if they're otherwise happy with the store) just because it seems to be in a dead zone.

Re:In completely unrelated news

[Machtyn]

I'll feed this troll.

That's not the point of this article, is it? It's not the being out of contact for 15 minutes, it's the being able to "shop" (price compare, item/brand compare, etc).

And, yes, I would suspect that emergency personnel making a quick stop would not bear to be out of contact for fifteen minutes.

Re:In completely unrelated news

[Rob the Bold]

I would see such an action as a clear indication that they wish to screw me over with expensive products. I wouldn't buy anything there.

But you probably wouldn't "see" such an action at all. Unless a store is stupid enough to put up a sign saying they interfere with wireless communication deliberately . . . But if they're that stupid, the place probably sucks in plenty of other ways, too.

To you and me and all the other shoppers, Super Target is mostly in a dead zone -- stupid lack of cell towers here. Coincidentally, my nearest Super Target is mostly in a dead zone . . .

Re:In completely unrelated news

[Xadnem]

Easier than that - Campus bookstore here has a sign out front saying no mobiles allowed in the store.

Re:In completely unrelated news

[Anonymous Coward]

Offer free wifi, but setup a web filter that blocks Amazon, etc. When your customers' fancy phones automatically connect to your network you control what sites they can price match on.

Until they turn wifi off and browse through the cell network anyway, but it seems like it'd be a decent way to blunt the edge.

Re:In completely unrelated news

[mcvos]

I often have crappy reception in supermarkets.

Re:In completely unrelated news

[DragonWriter]

Retailers soon to petition FCC to allow cell-blocking technology in private businesses.

I'm more likely to not shop in a store because they are blocking my ability to text or call my wife to confirm a detail of the product we need, or to access my cloud-hosted shopping list, or to -- as I suddenly remember that I forgot to add the ingredients for a certain recipe to my list -- to check the online recipe for the ingredient list, than I am to use my phone to comparison shop and reject the store for that reason.

Re:In completely unrelated news

[rjstanford]

And, yes, I would suspect that emergency personnel making a quick stop would not bear to be out of contact for fifteen minutes.

Its a good thing we've always had celphones, then.

Re:In completely unrelated news

[imunfair]

They might not need it - my cell phone (Sprint/Nextel) doesn't get a signal past the registers at my local Walmart for some reason. At the Target less than a block away with a store of the same size my phone works fine throughout the store. So whatever that Walmart is doing blocks phones without using illegal jammer technology. (Quite annoying when you're trying to do research to figure out which product is best for your needs!)

Re:In completely unrelated news

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry buddy, you're off base. There is absolutely NO laws that prevent a store from doing this. It's called a Faraday cage and all it requires is some metal mesh around the outside of the store. I'll concede that maybe it's not a wise decision for the store, but there's nothing preventing them from doing it. In fact, this is done in many college classrooms already and it's starting to creep its way into movie theaters.

Re:In completely unrelated news

[oblio_one]

They don't even need to block cell signal necessarily. Was recently shopping in an Apple retail store, which sells 3rd party accessories (cases, stylus, etc.) When I tried to use an app to price check the items, I found every bar code is covered with a sticker that has a different, Apple unique bar code on it. I couldn't access the actual UPC to price check online. When I started removing the sticker a sales clerk approached and asked what i was doing; shocked at the audacity of using ShopSavvy on Android to price check the 100 dollar case. So at least one retailer is blocking this physically.

Re:In completely unrelated news

[elrous0]

I'm not talking about building a faraday cage into your store's construction (obviously that's possible, but seems prohibitively expensive). I'm talking about actual cell-phone jamming, which I believe is illegal, according to the FCC.

Re:In completely unrelated news

[superdave80]

I'd just turn my building into a giant Faraday cage, and no external signals could get through. Problem solved, and the FCC can't say shit about it.

Re:In completely unrelated news

[angiasaa]

It is perfectly legal to blanket out cellphone signals as long as sufficiently visible signs/warnings are in place proclaiming the same are placed around the zone.

They don't 'have' to petition the FCC or anyone else.

Re:In completely unrelated news

[telomerewhythere]

Two words: Facebook

Re:In completely unrelated news

[dadioflex]

He might have just been shocked that you were tampering with his merchandise.

Re:In completely unrelated news

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not the point of the article. It is the point of the post I responded to. Duh.

Emergency personnel popping into a shop might be out of contact for two minutes, not fifteen. Unless they are on a break. In which case, they are on a break.

I did this

[fridaynightsmoke]

I used my phone to find the best prices when I was buying various white goods (fridge/freezer, washing machine, dishwasher) upon moving house, from a certain UK big-box electrical retailer.

Of course, the salesperson said "Oh no, we can't match internet prices" but it turns out that given a choice between a discounted sale and no sale, they can

Protip: You haven't got the best price until the salesperson has sheepishly had to ask the manager for authority twice.

Re:I did this

[skgrey]

I used my iPhone and the Red Laser app to scan all the toys my kids wanted. It shows all the prices for the stores around me, as well as online. I got approached by at least one sales person asking me what I was doing, and Toys R Us specifically was not happy. I got approached by a floor manager after the sales person approached me, and he asked to see the app. He looked none too happy. Why in the world would I not check if I had the ability??

Re:I did this

[DigiShaman]

I'm willing to bet that while one product is cheaper at one store, another may be more expensive. It could be a washout when it's all said and done shopping. If I was a sales manager, I would be offering some incentive to my customers to do all their shopping at my store at once. The more they spend, the greater their savings. I'm willing to bet it would keep people from playing the numbers game with you, and who want's to bounce around stores just to save a few bucks on a toy anyways?

Re:I did this

[Anonymous Coward]

A friend of mine was kicked out of Best Buy a couple years back for checking prices with his G1 (which they also sold in the store with that app on it). He tried to explain what he was doing, but the manager told him he was lying and called the police.

Re:I did this

[skgrey]

That's the best part though - I didn't have to bounce around! Most of the stuff was cheaper on the net, and most had free shipping. Also, Target, Best Buy, Kohl's, and Toys R' Us are within about a mile of each other here as well, and I'll bet that's the case with most places, so bouncing isn't that bad anyway.

Your comment is very apt though, retailers need to figure out that they need to offer more than just an item or two lower than competitors and move to a different model, as technology is breaking their current sales model.

Re:I did this

[MoonBuggy]

I often wonder why Currys/Comet still exist. Their prices are almost universally terrible and the service sucks - is the market for people who can't wait 24-48 hours for shipping really that large?

Re:I did this

[batquux]

It shows all the prices for the stores around me, as well as online.

Sounds interesting. Where does this information come from?

Re:I did this

[fridaynightsmoke]

I'm willing to bet that while one product is cheaper at one store, another may be more expensive. It could be a washout when it's all said and done shopping. If I was a sales manager, I would be offering some incentive to my customers to do all their shopping at my store at once. The more they spend, the greater their savings. I'm willing to bet it would keep people from playing the numbers game with you, and who want's to bounce around stores just to save a few bucks on a toy anyways?

That's basically what I did. Walked around the store, saw the appliances I wanted and noted down the model numbers. Sat in the car outside and searched for the cheapest price available for each appliance. Added the cheapest price for each thing together into a grand total, then walked back in to the store and told them that was how much I was going to pay.

After much negotiation, including the "we can't match internet prices" line (to which I said "I've already cost you your overheads by browsing the store, do you want some profit out of it or not?") I think they ended up about £30 more than the total I had written down (which was around £1100) but threw in free delivery and free extended warranties on everything, all on interest free credit.

I think that with the total discount compared to the sticker prices, I got the dishwasher free. It was cheaper even than ordering the items separately from the cheapest seller of each; there would have been £30 (ish) delivery per item.

Of course, the more you buy the bigger the discount available; any sensible retailer knows this, they just rarely advertise that fact in the hope that 'most people' will cough the full price(s), even when they're spending 1,000s.

I think the fact is that if you don't negotiate the price of something that costs over say £200, you're doing it wrong. The sticker price on a car is only a suggestion. With small owner-operated stores you can normally negotiate even on smaller items. I negotiated £5 off a £20 mouse once :)

Re:I did this

[DavidTC]

If I was a sales manager, I would be offering some incentive to my customers to do all their shopping at my store at once. The more they spend, the greater their savings.

See, that's what's gone away: Any reason for customers to have store loyalty.

It used to be that you could actually get discounts. Nowadays, they can offer discounts for exactly one reason: price matching.

Sure, there are those customer loyalty cards, but the free ones are clearly just privacy-invading discounts that should already exist. You're not given a discount for being a 'good customers'.

The ones you have to buy, like bookstore ones, are a manual discount, which is just as idiotic. Those things should be offered free after someone's bought $30 or whatever. Or, even better, offered free, but with no discount, and as you buy stuff using them the discount gets larger and larger.

The only place you get actual discounts for actually buying stuff are those places that punch the goofy cards, which appear to somehow be the lowest rung of discounting. (And airlines have some sort of frequent flying thing too, which I don't know much about. Normally people when talking about 'frequent flyer' inexplicably mean 'stuff out credit card company gave us', but I'm sure there's some actual rewards from flying a lot.)

Other than that, no one offers any sort of discount, which is ironic, because they have more ability to track you than ever, and hence could easily offer customers discounts. They don't even need cards. At checkout: 'I see you've purchased more than $80 this month. If you total more than $100 by the 31st, you get $10 off, so next time you're here, you can get $20 and only pay $10.'

You're doing it backwards, you idiotic resellers. Stop invading privacy against the customer's wishes. Just offer them an actual discount for loyalty, and actual discount based on them being good customers, not a pretend one by marking up prices and then pretending to 'discount' them because someone filled out a stupid card, which people see straight through and, um, doesn't encourage any loyalty. At that point, people will start making sure that you know how much they've bought there. You set something like that up, and forget needing the customer cards...people will deliberately link their credit cards if they're using multiple ones, and tell you their actual name and address. (Not the 80% fake address the 'customer loyalty' cards have.)

And that's just the 'general discount'. It used to be that if you bought a X, you could get X accessories for cheaper at the time, which encouraged people to buy all their stuff at once. Now half the time X is a loss leader and the accessories are marked up 300%. (I'm looking at you, Best Buy.) This is insane.

The only store that gets any sort of store loyalty from me is Barnes and Noble, because I'm afraid if I don't, actual physical bookstores will cease to exist. B&N has it sorta right, in that they keep mailing me coupons (Which I actually do use.), but it seems they're just mailing them because I'm a member, and not because I've bought things per se.

Until companies start actually rewarding actual purchasing and actual loyalty, there is absolutely no reason for customers to be loyal.

Re:I did this

[rjstanford]

I used my iPhone and the Red Laser app to scan all the toys my kids wanted. It shows all the prices for the stores around me, as well as online. I got approached by at least one sales person asking me what I was doing, and Toys R Us specifically was not happy. I got approached by a floor manager after the sales person approached me, and he asked to see the app. He looked none too happy. Why in the world would I not check if I had the ability??

Can you at least understand why he wasn't happy? If you want to use his floor space, play with his display models, and take advantage of all the other "free" services a bricks and mortar store provides, you should make your purchases there as well. Otherwise, do your research online and buy wherever is cheapest - that's fine too. Its just common decency.

Re:I did this

[fridaynightsmoke]

I often wonder why Currys/Comet still exist. Their prices are almost universally terrible and the service sucks - is the market for people who can't wait 24-48 hours for shipping really that large?

I think that for a lot of people (perhaps most) there is a lot of appeal in physically seeing what you're going to buy, and having an assistant available to answer questions (potentially bad advice is more appealing to many people than no advice). Also having things delivered can be damn inconvenient for many, especially for 9-5ers who can't recieve parcels at work. The choice between a physical shop and an online one can be between the shop selling something for £50, there and then to take away, and the online shop selling for £42, plus £5 shipping, and having to collect from the courier depot on some distant industrial estate on a saturday morning, a week after ordering.

Many people also are not fully aware of the alternatives, both on the net and in other shops. Personally I've found Comet to be alright for service and some of the prices are fairly good. Currys is worse on both counts. For TV's etc Richer Sounds can have some very good deals (if there is one near you). Any remotely computer related stuff comes off the net, usually ebuyer

Re:I did this

[xtracto]

The only store that gets any sort of store loyalty from me is Barnes and Noble, because I'm afraid if I don't, actual physical bookstores will cease to exist.

Regarding this... I was so sad the last time I went to "chesire oaks park" in the UK and discovered they had closed a :(

I love browsing bookstores. Back in Mexico I used to go with my parents for a trip to the bookstore when I was a kid (a big 4 floor bookstore) and they would buy any book I wanted. Nowadays I am usually a compulsive buyer when I am at a bookstore. Something that does not happen in Amazon and the like.

Re:I did this

[cdrguru]

The answer is to do none of your shopping in person and only compare prices on the Internet. This makes sure you get zero customer service and the lowest prices without having to drive around. This is the future of shopping because the Internet makes it possible to compare prices and nothing else - you don't care if the warehouse is dirty and you have nobody to complain to when things go wrong, but you get really low, low prices.

End result of this is Amazon and Walmart win, everyone else loses. Including the customer.

Re:I did this

[Rob the Bold]

>

Protip: You haven't got the best price until the salesperson has sheepishly had to ask the manager for authority twice.

Problem is that there are "Pro" salesmen, too. The old "ask my manager" trick . . .

Re:I did this

[mewsenews]

If I was a sales manager, I would be offering some incentive to my customers to do all their shopping at my store at once.

Sounds like a customer loyalty program. Maybe we will be seeing more of them in the future.

Re:I did this

[rickb928]

As if he would be happier if I never set foot in his store.

I got the same treatment last Christmas season at TWO Best Buy stores here, and both times I essentially ignored first the salesperson and then the manager-type. One tried to take my elbow and escort me out of the store. Unwise. He threatened to call the police. I offered to move somewhere in the store slightly less conspicuous and wait for them. He saud no, so I stood right where I was. Didn't take long for someone to ask me to move, and get the "I'm waiting for the police, the manager told me to saty right here" speech. The really grubby kid asked why, and next thing you know he's got HIS phone out scanning prices. Nice kid. We waited a fair amount of time and continued on with our price shopping. Manager was not seen again. Weasel.

Some of the stores around here have a nice little sign telling us they do not allow scanning barcodes, etc. If Best Buy doesn't actually want to compete on price, they should reconsider advertising that they do. And if they do, can I perhaps compare your prices right now? I should sit in the car and riffle through flyers, or call stores? Ha!

We may yet be witnessing the end of retailing for lots of stuff. Eventually we might be buying a car from the maker and having it delivered. Your next phone? Pfft, like I need a salesperson to show me the shiny bits.

Re:I did this

[rjstanford]

We may yet be witnessing the end of retailing for lots of stuff. Eventually we might be buying a car from the maker and having it delivered. Your next phone? Pfft, like I need a salesperson to show me the shiny bits.

Then why did you wander 'round the store taking pictures of barcodes and checking out the merchandise in person?

Re:I did this

[ChefInnocent]

I think this suggests using an elder "protip". It's called haggling. The other month, I was looking for a nice ceiling fan to go into a home office. I went to Lowes and Home Depot. Nothing really impressed me. I went to a local floor & lighting center which had the fan I wanted. I wrote down the model numbers, went home, and looked it up on the internet. Amazingly (I had never seen this before), the store was cheaper than anywhere I could find online (at least $25). There was still a problem, the fan was $75 more than I had budgeted. I spoke with the sales guy and told him, I was really looking for the $300 range and $375 was more than I could part with. He tried to talk me into other models, I said the other's didn't appeal to me, and if I wanted to settle, I'd go back to Lowes where I saw one for $150 that was pleasing enough. Well, after a bit of time and some more discussion, I walked out of there with my fan for $305. I saved almost $100 over the internet price, and $75 from the store's initial price.

Re:I did this

[DigiShaman]

BestBuy has one, but after awhile the points expire before you get around to using them. They have the right idea, but their implementation is a complete scam.

Come to think of it, the airline industry does the same thing with frequent flier miles.

Re:I did this

[vix86]

The more they spend, the greater their savings.

It's funny you should mention something like this. In Japan, there is a lack of an online purchasing system. Stuff like Newegg/TigerDirect don't really exist and there are loads of brick and mortar stores to shop at, meaning shopping around in Japan can be quite a challenge. One of Japan's version of BestBuy, YodobashiCamera, actually has a system where you sign up for a point card and then everything you buy and use the point card with accumulated points. It just happens to work out such that the points equal the sales tax usually, and sometimes you even get sales that let you acquire say 5% more points from the purchase price. These points then work as real money where 1 point = 1 yen and you can return and buy items in nothing but points. So if I bought a 10,000yen item I would get 1000 points back if I paid in cash (credit cards only got you 8%). I always thought this system was somewhat ingenious as it sort of created a system where once people started buying big price items from there and started getting points, its likely they would want to continue to return. Even with the point savings though, many other stores still tended to have much better prices on some items than Yodobashi did; you just couldn't use those points there :).

Re:I did this

[gknoy]

Sometimes narrowing down the choice of product is helped tremendously by looking closely at it.

Re:I did this

[Dr. Spork]

Hey, he gave this place a chance! I mean, as the manager, you'd rather have the guy come to your store with a bar scanner rather than not come at all, right?

Re:I did this

[Silentknyght]

It used to be that you could actually get discounts. Nowadays, they can offer discounts for exactly one reason: price matching.

I've been suspicious of actual competitive price matching, lately. For example, I can't find identical model number laptops at local B&M stores... really, how hard would it be for mfr/retailers to set up unique model numbers for each retailer so that each retailer never actually price match certain items with each other? Even if the internal components are 100% identical, if the model numbers don't match, the clowns at customer service will not price match.

This kind of activity already occurs with videogames. Retailers don't deviate from the MSRP whatsoever. When you see a difference in what you pay, it's always via a quirky mechanism (e.g. free gift card, mail-in rebate) that cannot/will not be price-matched.

Re:I did this

[rjstanford]

You just described iDine perfectly, by the way. Add your credit cards, give them marketing data, and you get 20% off your purchase price as a discount. I figure I'm being tracked anyway so why not - and I don't particularly care. United has a similar program where they give you miles at 5-per-dollar instead of cash back, through the same network.

Re:I did this

[DragonWriter]

As if he would be happier if I never set foot in his store.

He might be. Retail chains quite frequently (though this is monumentally stupid) do all kinds of narrow incentives which amount to self-destructive microoptimization. Typically, these include incentives not based on overall profit, but based on things like the percentage of tickets on which you are able to sell particular high-value add-ons.

Shortly before CompUSA's final death spiral, I had the manager of the store berate me at the register for not wanting the extended warranty on a laptop I was purchasing with a number of other accessories -- about $1500 total in things I wanted to buy -- even after I asked him if he'd prefer if I just took my business elsewhere. Resulting in my credit card staying in my pocket, as I walked out the door -- the last time I walked into a CompUSA. No doubt, the manager had incentives or performance measures based on the percentage of sales of particular items on which the pure-profit extended warranty was sold.

Re:I did this

[Anonymous Coward]

Nonsense! That's like saying that because television is ad supported, you should be required to view each and every ad that's on during the shows you watch. When you start a business, you're assuming risk. You are saying that you have a business plan that you believe will at the very least allow you to meet the expenses of running your business. And you are accepting that if it doesn't, you will incur the loss. If you put up a store front and can't sell enough to keep it running, that's life. You can either innovate or die. But you can't blame people for coming into your store, seeing that you aren't being competitive through any means they want, and leaving without purchasing anything. Would it be wrong if I brought a newspaper flyer from a competitor's store, came into your store and looked at your prices, then left because your prices sucked? It's no different than using an iPhone to do the same thing.

Re:I did this

[Anonymous Coward]

What I want is a way to compare store-specific versions.

E.g: When comparing A/V receivers at Best Buy, BB has their own product number for a Yamaha receiver than what's on Yamaha's website. The specs says they have the same power capacity, I/O connections, etc. However, I have no idea if they have different processors on the inside or if they're purely re-branded products. As this is a purchase I will live with for a long time (probably 20+ years,) I want to make sure that I'm getting the best value, not necessarily the best price.

Re:I did this

[rjstanford]

Sometimes narrowing down the choice of product is helped tremendously by looking closely at it.

Yup. And that's why retailers are deserving of some kind of reimbursement (ie: your business) for buying and opening all those models for you to look at.

Re:I did this

[asynchronous13]

my g/f was shopping for a new TV. She found the model she wanted, on sale, and was just about to tell the sales guy "I'll take it" when she was interrupted by her phone. She needs to pay attention to incoming messages because she delivers babies. She excused herself and consulted the latest news about one of her patients on her phone. The sales guy must have assumed she was price checking -- he quickly said, "Let me talk to my manager" disappeared and when he came back offered an additional $400 discount!! She got the unexpected benefit of price checking without actually doing anything.

Places that do what it takes to make the sale will outlast the places that cry "waaaah, that's not fair!"

Re:I did this

[raodin]

Look, people shop around, they did before the internet, and they did before mobile phones. There is nothing any retailer can do to stop this.

Being grumpy at a customer for using the tools at their disposal to shop around more efficiently is simply driving that customer away. Treating your customer with respect, on the other hand, *might* make you a sale even if your prices aren't the absolute lowest.

A sales person calling over a supervisor to bother a guest in their store for price shopping is extremely disrespectful. You call over a manager for suspicious activities, or clear violations of posted store polices (non-service pets, inappropriate clothing) NOT because you are worried the customer might find out you don't have the lowest price and go shop elsewhere. They might have passed on a product at your store due to price, but now they almost certainly will because you harassed them. How is that a win for your store?

Re:I did this

[yurtinus]

So you're telling me that after you were *asked* to leave a private establishment in no uncertain terms, you simply offered to move to a different part of it? Wow. Yes, if that were my shop I would have absolutely forcibly removed you. You are no longer a customer, you are a trespasser and they clearly don't want your money any longer. I'm not saying the store is right for stifling price shopping - but once they decided they don't want your money and want you to leave, that's the end of discussion.

Good lord, and here I was thinking I'd *never* take Best Buy's side in a discussion :P

Re:I did this

[rjstanford]

Look, people shop around, they did before the internet, and they did before mobile phones. There is nothing any retailer can do to stop this.

Being grumpy at a customer for using the tools at their disposal to shop around more efficiently is simply driving that customer away. Treating your customer with respect, on the other hand, *might* make you a sale even if your prices aren't the absolute lowest.

In this case, though, the price of the toy online will always be less than the price in the store, because the online merchant doesn't have to pay for the services that the in-person merchant does. Using the resources of one business (display models, boxes, et cetera) in order to decide which of a number of other businesses to shop at is unethical, plain and simple.

No, its not illegal. But it will drive B&M stores out of business. I suggest that you re-read The Tragedy of the Commons and think about how that applies here as well...

Re:I did this

[rickb928]

Well, I objected to his paying his hands on me. And he was oblique enough about it that he never came out and said I had to leave, but that I had to 'stop doing that'. 'That' being comparing prices real-time.

A pretty lame attempt, he could have come right out and told me I could not do that and I would need to leave, and in fact I had stopped to deal with his interruption.

As far as I know, the police never came. But had they, I would have been leaving obviously. Working as a bouncer for a club in my youth, I understand the concept of serving those you want to and not serving those you don't. Tossing me for scanning barcodes? Call the cops. He don't have the right to drag me out of the store. Now, what would I tell the judge...

Re:I did this

[vlueboy]

who want's to bounce around stores just to save a few bucks on a toy anyways?

Anyone who is unemployed, underpaid or overly cautious
Anyone noticing that gas prices are no longer at the $4.00 USD/gallon tag we had two full summers ago
USA Black friday shoppers, who just 3 weeks ago is another wildly popular exercise in multi-location shopping

You are right, about having prices go up and down. It really messes with my computer builds that I'd need to visit 4 stores to get the absolute cheapest parts. Being in an expensive transportation area and on public transportation, the money spent on trips kill the savings unless I use flat-rate transit passes. I ended up deciding on a max of two stores.

No, tiny mailboxes and post-office delivery hours and retrieval policies are a big pain for online shipping when you don't own a house and can't wait for a 1PM package that arrives randomly while you're at work.

Re:I did this

[raodin]

Even if you grant that it is unethical to shop in a retail store and buy online - and that is a big stretch - any retailer who harasses their customers for shopping intelligently deserves to go out of business. Period.

Re:I did this

[AmberBlackCat]

If I was a sales manager, I would be offering some incentive to my customers to do all their shopping at my store at once. The more they spend, the greater their savings. I'm willing to bet it would keep people from playing the numbers game with you, and who want's to bounce around stores just to save a few bucks on a toy anyways?

Then all they have to do is update the app to calculate which store gives you the lowest price based on each stores discount after you've listed every item you want to buy. Also, you don't have to go to a different store for each item. If one store has 3 items at the lowest price and the other store has 4 other items at the lowest price, you just buy 3 items in one store, and buy 4 items in another.

Re:I did this

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, fuck you.

Re:I did this

[BoberFett]

Yes, my heart bleeds about the ethics of price matching at some store. I'm sure the store is 100% ethical in their dealings and would never take advantage of anybody.

Re:I did this

[DavidTC]

Yes, they're known to be doing this.

So, to recap: They invent exactly one way discounts could even possible exist...and then attack that way.

The idea of giving someone a discount because they buy a large amount from that place is clearly insane. Why, if they did that, everyone would buy in large amounts from them just to get a discount!

...wait a second.

Re:I did this

[DavidTC]

I didn't really describe iDine. It sorta defeats the purpose of this if it's the same 'points' at multiple locations. The whole point is to get them at your place. (OTOH, perhaps it's actually divided into rewards per-location. The iDine website does not explain.)

What I was talking about was simply for business to get loyal customers, customers that won't do what the ones described in the article are doing, customers who will buy from X because X will actually reward them in an increasing manner they more they buy.

The iDine card just demonstrates not only is my assumption that people will willing give over correct personal information, instead of the nonsense companies end up with existing 'loyalty' cards...but that data is so fricking popular that third parties will be willing to pay for it.

Instead, businesses do idiotic 'loyalty' cards that do not actually reward you personally in any way, so people get them with bogus information or the cashier just lets you use his. This results in less accurate data than if they'd just collected the last four digits of the credit card and the name, and treated that as 'person'.

Hell, I wasn't even approaching it from the value of that information, but my concept of actual loyalty cards that accrues points in some manner would get them that information essentially for free. Plus give customers an incentive to buy at your place for $105 dollars instead of getting it for $100.

Re:I did this

[rjstanford]

Would it be wrong if I brought a newspaper flyer from a competitor's store, came into your store and looked at your prices, then left because your prices sucked? It's no different than using an iPhone to do the same thing.

Nope. Would it be wrong if you knew the prices elsewhere were lower but came in to my store because it was large, well-lit, and had lots of display models on-hand for you to try-out (and devalue, just a little) before leaving, having now decided what to buy elsewhere? Yes.

Not illegal, I'll grant you. But many things that are legal are still wrong.

Re:I did this

[rjstanford]

Any customer who goes to shop at a B&M store with her kids to see what they want and then scans the barcodes to buy online later is not a customer that store would ever have - more specifically, they're not a customer. That's not "shopping intelligently," that's taking advantage of service you know full well you'll never pay for. While legal, its unethical.

Here's a good ethics test for you. If there's a practice that when one person does it is "smart" but when many people do it will ruin the company/person/state/whatever that's on the losing side of the deal, especially if there's no way for the loser to change the rules to their advantage without turning away other ethical business, that's a situation that's unsustainable and almost certainly unethical. Just because the B&M store is "big" doesn't give you the right to treat them like dirt. Of course, if enough people start doing it, nobody will have the benefit of the local shop any more.

Re:I did this

[raodin]

Lets look at that quote again shall we?

I used my iPhone and the Red Laser app to scan all the toys my kids wanted. It shows all the prices for the stores around me, as well as online.

(emphasis mine)

If you can't wrap your head around the fact that any person who has already set foot in your store is a potential sale, you'd make a terrible salesperson. Checking prices is not a guarantee that the customer is going to shop somewhere else. If your prices are even in the same ballpark, there is a decent chance they'll pick up the item *now* because they are already there, and it is convenient. If the staff was pleasant, that is another point in their favor.

The entire issue here is that some sales geek at Toys'r'us made an *assumption* that someone checking prices on their phone will definitely not make any purchases while they are in the store. By making that assumption, they probably swayed that customer away from making any purchases, and in fact, they have now generated negative word of mouth. Harassing shoppers is a pretty terrible way to move product. I work for one of those "big" B&M stores, and if I saw a sales associate harassing a customer for checking prices on their phone, they'd be in the office for a quick refresher on the benefits of friendliness.

Frankly, taking your money to another business, be it online or another retailer, is never unethical. No one has any obligation to keep a store in business just because they happened to walk in and take up their floorspace for a few minutes. The store is responsible for their own survival, and part of that is balancing operating costs against actual sales. Plenty of retailers are surviving just fine in the face of online (and mail-order before that) competition so far, the ability to check prices real-time instead of ahead of time is *not* going to push a currently profitable retailer over the edge now. Smart retailers are looking for ways to utilize their customer's smart phones, instead of waving their hands in panic that now they can get real-time pricing data.

Re:I did this

[rjstanford]

If you can't wrap your head around the fact that any person who has already set foot in your store is a potential sale, you'd make a terrible salesperson. Checking prices is not a guarantee that the customer is going to shop somewhere else. If your prices are even in the same ballpark, there is a decent chance they'll pick up the item *now* because they are already there, and it is convenient. If the staff was pleasant, that is another point in their favor.

I was also looking at this follow-on comment from the same poster:

That's the best part though - I didn't have to bounce around! Most of the stuff was cheaper on the net, and most had free shipping.

Let's face facts. There is no way that a B&M store can be consistently cheaper than online for common retail items. Just can't be done. I agree with your point that harassing anyone in your store is a bad idea; I also feel that taking advantage of the convenience that B&M stores offer you to browse and have your kids play with stuff should mean a willingness to give them your business as well.

When you're comparing, say, Target and Best Buy, that kind of cross-shopping was reasonable; both provided comparable services, both had similar cost structures, et cetera. But in this case, the service (looking and touching) is always going to be only offered in person, and the better prices are almost always going to be offered online.

Would you similarly endorse someone going to Nordstrom's to use their personal shopping service (after all, its "free" too), writing down all their recommendations, and then purchasing their clothes online? Its just a different scale of the same problem. And when a few people do it (either example), nobody's really hurt. When a lot of people start to do it, businesses die. And if you don't care that the B&M retailer dies ... why are their services worth using up in the meantime?

Re:I did this

[quacking duck]

I've been suspicious of actual competitive price matching, lately. For example, I can't find identical model number laptops at local B&M stores... really, how hard would it be for mfr/retailers to set up unique model numbers for each retailer so that each retailer never actually price match certain items with each other? Even if the internal components are 100% identical, if the model numbers don't match, the clowns at customer service will not price match.

I'm told this is also the case with mattresses and frames, i.e. each sleepware store has slightly different model numbers from each maker.

Re:I did this

[jp10558]

This was the same problem in my opinion with Circuit City before they went bankrupt and killed off the commissions on their sales persons. Why, those salespeople who were getting high commission checks must have been selling LOTs of stuff, what would happen if every sales person did that . . . wait a second... lol.

Re:I did this

[jp10558]

Well, except that prices are quite high compared to most big box stores, Rite Aid is doing this with their card.

For every $125 spent a one-time, 10% off shopping pass
For $500 in a year 10% off all non-prescription purchases every day and free health screenings
For $1,000 in a year 20% off all non-prescription points purchases every day

It's just that their basic prices make this not attractive when walking into Wal-Mart or even CVS for many products nets you an instant 40%-50% their price.

Re:I did this

[jp10558]

The issue I see though is that for many things, like say a flashlight or a shovel or an ipod - why do you care what the warehouse looks like? What customer service do you need beyond someone taking it back if it breaks in the first 30 days - which Amazon for instance does well. Shipping is the only place that can kill you for large items, but heck, buy a washing machine - most people need it delivered and installed anyway and it costs extra at most chains for that, so what's the difference?

I expect we might see some pay for entry showrooms show up to let people see appliances etc before ordering, but that probably fills the need.

I think that it's also a falsehood that the internet only lets you compare prices. I bet lots of people are also comparing the reviews on Amazon or epinions etc...

Re:I did this

[DavidTC]

Interesting, I had not heard of this. Good to see someone's actually figured it out.

And, yeah, their prices aren't very competitive. We have one where I am, and I usually end up buying shampoo and stuff at the local grocery store while there, and going to the gas station for quick things.

Re:I did this

[rourin_bushi]

Bah, no one got around to answering this over the weekend? Relevant to the topic, even :

One of my buddies in college wrote one of the (now) biggest smartphone barcode-based price-comparison apps as his senior project. At the time, he used a dedicated server for the app to dial into, and he entered prices by hand into its database. Being the ubergeek that he is, I'm sure it's well automated by now.

Uniqueness

[truthsearch]

Most stores sell the same things that are found everywhere. The most profitable stores are often specialty, where there's little option to find a product elsewhere. In the long run we might see more manufacturer stores, bypassing the generic middlemen. E.g., Apple.

Re:Uniqueness

[rwv]

more manufacturer stores, bypassing the generic middlemen. E.g., Apple.

Point of clarification... Apple is a manufacturer store with huge mark-ups. Apple is probably the best example of Veritical Integration that exists right now. They combined their hardware with their software and sell it all through their own stores.

I don't think retailers are going anywhere, though. Best Buy and Amazon are necessary. Apple is a very special niche. Manufacturers like HP and Samsung aren't opening up their own stores anytime soon. And I bet sales at Sony's stores pale in comparison to the volume Sony moves through generic retailers.

It'd be interesting to see how Dell and Microsoft do very their own internal sales forces compared to their sales through "the generic middlemen".

Re:Uniqueness

[minorproblem]

Exactly, i wanted a very specific amplifier and speakers just the other day and had no option but to order them through the official distributor because no one else sells them.

Re:Uniqueness

[LynnwoodRooster]

Or what's been done for nearly two decades before the Apple stores rolled out - Bose stores. Even if sold in another store, they were typically given their own dedicated room as the contract to sell Bose spelled out.

+1 Rationality

[TaoPhoenix]

Awww. Store can't bamboozle poor customers with flashy displays anymore?

Re:+1 Rationality

[Anonymous Coward]

Awww. Store can't bamboozle poor customers with flashy displays anymore?

Also the bullshit of "60% OFF! New Price ONLY $99.99!"

Then you see other brick and mortar stores sell it for $89.99 and the internet is $69.99. The original price was pulled out of their asses. The Furniture business are the worst offenders.

Or some of the internet stores will have a great low price but make it up in shipping and handling and then some. So the $69.99 item become $110.15 after S&H. Then you get the package and it cost them less than $10 to ship it and the handling works out to $200/hr assuming they have a slow poke that only fill 20 orders an hour.

Books

[Anonymous Coward]

If I walk into a store and something is $30 and it's $27 online. I'll probably just buy it right there.

But the other day I went to get a book from Borders and it was $30 in the store and $15 online. For that I'll just buy it when I get home.

At Barnes & Noble the in store price for something like Rosetta Stone is $600, but it's $450 online.

(I think everything is just 20 to 30% more expensive in the store.. regardless of size/weight/etc.

Re:Books

[MyLongNickName]

This reminds me of the results of a survey. People were asked "If you found out that this $100 piece of software were only $50 across town, would you leave this store, drive across town and buy it cheaper?" The answer was almost always less. Others were asked "If you found out that this $1,000 computer were available for $950 across town, would you leave this store and by it cheaper?" Fewer than half said yes.

So why is the value of our time less for more expensive products? It seems people are fundamentally illogical. Yes, I know... I must be new here.

Re:Books

[mdarksbane]

People working with large numbers deal in percentages and proportions. It's how our monkey brains try to handle values that are so much larger than anything we were designed for.

There's also the question of worth. Something that is only worth $50 might not be worth a purchase of $100, but something that is worth $950 most likely is probably still worth $1000 to someone.

This is, of course, why the most efficient use of your time for most people is in negotiating a better deal on your car or your house.

Re:Books

[Jakester2K]

This reminds me of the results of a survey. People were asked "If you found out that this $100 piece of software were only $50 across town, would you leave this store, drive across town and buy it cheaper?" The answer was almost always less. Others were asked "If you found out that this $1,000 computer were available for $950 across town, would you leave this store and by it cheaper?" Fewer than half said yes.

So why is the value of our time less for more expensive products? It seems people are fundamentally illogical. Yes, I know... I must be new here.

What does "The answer was almost always less" mean? You mean "yes," yes?

If the numbers you quote are accurate, there's no real logical flaw here. 50% savings is far more attractive than 5%, and the return on the inconvenience is far more worth it.

You could probably conduct these survey with different numbers - like orders of magnitude different - and get similar results.

Re:Books

[Chrisq]

Its a well known affect. Logically you should worry as much about saving £50 when negotiating a house sale as when buying a £100 piece of software, but few people do. It also leads to the "marginal extra" situation which makes people buy more extras when making a big purchase. If I offered someone on the street a set of mud flaps for £50 and alloy wheels for £500 most would say no - but many would say "I might as well have the trim" when buying a £15,000 car!

Re:Books

[Sancho]

Personally, I don't want to be taken for a ride. In the first case, the store has over 100% markup, which offends me if another store is able to sell it at a much lower price. I'm not only likely to go to that other store, but I'm likely to stop shopping at the first one.

It's not about the flat savings, it's about overcharging.

Re:Books

[Yvan256]

Going from 100 to 50 means a "50% discount" while going from 1000 to 950 only means a "5% discount".

So I guess they're thinking "I'm not driving across town for a 5% discount".

Re:Books

[Anonymous Coward]

That is not a completely fair comparison. We don't measure value in absolute terms, but by relative terms.

A $100 item that only costs $50 when bought online is a price reduction of 50%. A $1000 item that costs $950 online only represents a price reduction of 5%.

Think about it this way. Suppose you were rich and have a million dollars in your wallet. I come to you and ask you for 10 bucks. If you gave it to me, how much loss would you really feel now that you are less-richer than you were previously by 10 dollars? You still have $999,990 left. Now suppose you are poor and only have 20 dollars in your wallet. I come and ask you for 10 bucks. Wouldn't you think twice before giving me 10 bucks? You are losing half of what you have; you will definitely feel the loss of that money. Incidentally, I believe this is the reason why people argue against flat tax (it's harder on the poor folks than it is on the rich ones).

Going back to your example, if the $1000 item cost $500 online, you would definitely see more people purchasing it online. I don't think people are fundamentally illogical. I think it's just that they do things for logical reasons that they themselves are not aware of.

I could be wrong though. Someone please do correct me if I am. Thanks.

Re:Books

[davidbrit2]

It's a percentage/false-economy thing, I'd bet. If I've got $1,000 to throw at software, I'm probably not going to be too bothered by a 5% difference. But with $100 being the upper end of "cheap" software, I might be a bit more concerned with the 50% difference.

If I'm performing racing modifications for my car, I'll probably tear out the back seats to reduce weight. But if I've got a large yacht, am I going to throw a few deck chairs overboard to improve performance and fuel economy? Probably not.

Re:Books

[MyLongNickName]

You are correct, I meant "yes".

ROI is not applicable here.... at least not in the way you are looking at it. My investment is the drive across town, not the purchase price of the item. In instance one you say that your drive is worth less than $50. In the second you say that your drive is worth more than the $50 savings.

Re:Books

[MyLongNickName]

It is a perfectly fair comparison. In fact, this info comes from a marketing class and is used as an example of how you can use psychological games to get folks to pay more. No... this wasn't the exact term used in the class... terms like "price discrimination and segmentation" are used.

But the bottom line, the rationale you are citing is used by retailers to extract more money out of you than you logically should.

Re:Books

[MyLongNickName]

You are 100% spot on. Going through a marketing class you see folks have spent years studying these psychological facets and know how to take advantage of them. As humans, we are not 100% rational, present company included.

I tend to be more rational and less materialistic than most (more of my money goes to schooling and charity than I spend on everything else combined) yet I see myself fall into some of these traps.

So while I never intend to be in marketing, it is good to know how the enemy thinks :)

Re:Books

[natehoy]

That's because store overhead (rent, heat, wages, disposal of display models, etc) is somewhere around (wait for it)... 20 to 30%. If not often higher.

Stores want to make money, too.

And to show you all that shiny in person and let you touch it and try it out before you drop your benjamins on it, they have to spend more than Amazon does to show you a picture of it on teh Interwebz.

Choose Amazon too often, and you'll only ever have an option to see the pictures. Because the stores will go out of business. Your choice.

Re:Books

[batquux]

I see myself fall into some of these traps.

Nothing wrong with this. At least you see yourself doing it.

Re:Books

[natehoy]

It's not supposed to be a fair comparison, it's supposed to be a good example of how our brains work, and it is. This isn't about how much money you have, it's about how much you are about to spend on something.

In each case, you're saving $50 and are assumed to be putting in about the same effort. To save the same $50, people will go to the effort of driving across town in descending order of likelihood:

1. Receive $50 in cash or a gift card without buying anything at the moment.
2. Receive a free item worth $50.
3. Receive $50 off a $100 item that they intended to buy.
4. Receive $50 off a $500 item that they intended to buy.
5. Receive $50 off a $5,000 item that they intended to buy.

All other constants, like how much money you have in your bank account, are the same. Even the poorest person, after saving for a year to buy a $15,000 item, will generally drop a week's grocery money in additional cost to save a drive across town, when they'd happily drive across town for a free week's supply of groceries.

In all cases, it's the same amount of money they are saving by performing the same effort. $50 for driving across town. It's just a beautiful quirk of our monkey brains that $50 has a variable value depending on how much you were intending to spend at that moment. A quirk that companies are very good at using to their advantage.

Re:Books

[bluefoxlucid]

Incidentally, I believe this is the reason why people argue against flat tax (it's harder on the poor folks than it is on the rich ones).

You mean, the poor folks that just got taxed $0.00020 on their $20?

Re:Books

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

I saw a similar study and always find it interesting how the brain works. I might note, in some cases, we're trained to do just the opposite. For example, people often go out of their way to find the best price on gasoline, when in truth, comparison shopping on clothing or groceries is almost always going to result in more savings. So it is not only a biological function of how we process the math, but also a cultural function of how we've been trained by society.

Re:Books

[Anonymous Coward]

The book Predictably Irrational, by Dan Ariely (ISBN-10: 0061353248) deals with these kinds of irrational human behaviors. It is an enlightening read.

Re:Books

[tompaulco]

Software is a commodity and doesn't change from place to place. Your example does not say whether the computer is absolutely exactly the same across town, or even if it has identical specs but happens to be a different brand, or perhaps even DOES have different specs.
If they had asked about a piece of software that was $950 across town, I bet more people would have said they would go across town. Unless there was an option marked "I don't pay that much for software."

Re:Books

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll also say it is about relative savings.
They are saving half (50%) of what they pay by driving across town vs saving 5%.

What I find ridiculous / hard to comprehend is when people drive across town to save $0.01 per gallon of gas (tank ranging from 12 to 20 gallons) for a cheaper gas station. At most they would be saving $0.20, and likely they are losing (not even factoring in time costs) by driving across town.
I'm willing to drive an extra couple miles to saving $0.10 per gallon.

Re:Books

[jedidiah]

Chances are a lot of us will not put ourselves in the survey situation because we will avoid a store that gouges once we become aware of it. The "double price" realization would likely cause us to walk out of the offending store immediately and never go back.

Re:Books

[Anonymous Coward]

I think there might be some logic to that - just not totally obvious. For example, I buy a new computer for around $1,000 every few years. I buy software every month. So if I make the choice to spend an extra $50 on software a month, that's really going to add up, spending an extra $50 for a purchase only made every few years is not a big deal.

Re:Books

[jareth-0205]

Sort of. But that's assuming that you're likely to buy things that cost $1000 as often as things that cost $100, which is of course false. Let's say you buy $100 items ten times more often than that $1000 item, in that case the real price difference is comparing $500 to $50.

Re:Books

[Lilith's Heart-shape]

Incidentally, I believe this is the reason why people argue against flat tax (it's harder on the poor folks than it is on the rich ones).

Most of the people who argue against a flat tax assume that the tax is an absolute dollar amount, which is false. Most of the flat tax proposals I've seen are a flat percentage of all income above a certain minimum. For my part, I think that all the US government deserves is 5% on all income above the poverty line for a family of four. If they want more so they can start yet another land war in Asia, let 'em hold a fucking telethon.

Re:Books

[blair1q]

Look up Greg Mankiw. His theories of consumer inefficiency got him the top economist job in the Bush43 white house.

Re:Books

[Kjella]

Actually I think it's perfectly rational if you just add a few more elements to your model. If you send out a RFQ for a project, you typically drop the highest and lowest bids. Why? Because the lowest bidder is also quite likely to cut corners, have the least qualified staff, be a bitch about support and returns and anything else that eats into their non-existent margins. Plus you're likely to meet a hostile store looking to push upsells, accessories and extended warranties. If they take twice the price of their competitors you are obviously being ripped off, but 5%? I'd probably buy it and if turned out to be a pleasant experience I'd continue shopping there. Just the time spent dealing with difficult shops that you have throw the book at more than offsets the difference.

Re:Books

[GenmaKun]

If the stores would actually tell you the real "retail price" of sale items, I would be much more likely to buy things when they seem to be a good deal. But "10%" off usually just seems to mean that they jacked up the price 5-10% then marked off 10% of that. The last time I ever bought a BluRay from Borders, I had a 40% off one BluRay coupon, and they had Princess Bride at $40 (which seemed ridiculous, but it was inconceivable that I not buy it ASAP)... so I bought it for $24 and was happy as could be. Until I got home and saw the retail price everyplace else on the planet was $30 for exactly the same disk... and I could have got it for $18 on Amazon. We were at Toys R Us a week ago when "ALL*" lego sets were on sale BOGO50% off... except two of of the four we tried to get of course. So we told them they could put back the Starwars sets and we would just get the last two... they rung up at $10 more than the price they had had on them just a couple days before when we were considering getting them. Turns out they raised the price of some (all?) of their legos ahead of the BOGO sale... we refused to pay the higher amount and a manager had to come authorize selling at their normal price... and 50% off of their normal price. So yeah, I'm going to check prices at Toys R us and Borders... well, actually I've pretty much just stopped going to stores in the first place, but with my phone I can at least check if they are cheating me or not.

Re:Books

[MyLongNickName]

Boy you like to make things a lot more complicated than they really are...

Re:Books

[oblio_one]

One component of this is that those big purchases are usually financed. You don't pay £550 out of pocket and the amount it adds to your monthly payment is essentially nominal. Yes I know ti adds up over time to the same effect, but it helps people rationalize when they consider it 30 pence more a month or whatever.

Re:Books

[sourcerror]

That's easy. People expect better customer service when dealing with warranty.

Re:Books

[balbus000]

That is very interesting, but I can think of another factor.

When I buy a $950 - $1000 computer, I expect that I will get around 3-5 years of use out of it. So the actual increased price is about $10 - $15 per year.

I will likely buy several pieces of software during this time, so the savings on them will add up much quicker.

Re:Books

[Anonymous Coward]

our monkey brains try to handle values that are so much larger than anything we were designed for.

Which is it?

Re:Books

[Sabalon]

Was wanting a book - $39 at the store, $21 online. Bought it at the store - using my iPhone and the amazon app. Didn't even have to wait to get home to buy it at the lower price :)

Perfect market?

[XxtraLarGe]

It sounds like technology is enabling us to get closer & closer to a perfect market.

Re:Perfect market?

[Anonymous Coward]

It sounds like technology is enabling us to get closer & closer to a perfect market.

Sorry but you couldn't be more wrong.

"In Economics, a perfect market is defined by several conditions, collectively called Perfect Competition. Among these conditions are

        * Perfect market information
        * No participant with market power to set prices
        * No barriers to entry or exit
        * Equal access to production technology"

----

Perfect market information is more than just the price of the goods. It's where it comes from - did slave kids make it for pennies? Alot of that information is still unknown to the consumer and obscured by big business as much as possible.

As for the last three points mentioned above - we are so far away from this it's actually ridiculous. If retail in general is about to become even more price competitive this will only get worse. Small companies with little buying power get squeezed out while the few big players that remain clean house. The bigger companies have much greater access to production technology, no barrier to entry (within reason) is too high for them and the big boys most definitely set the market prices.

Re:Perfect market?

[XxtraLarGe]

Sorry but you couldn't be more wrong.

So what you're saying is now that we have more information, we're further away from a perfect market? I said we're moving closer, I didn't say we were there.

Re:Perfect market?

[fussy_radical]

That's what I came here to say but couldn't remember the term for it.
 
  The more the customer knows the more leverage they have in the process.
 
This reminds me of the outcry the music/movie industry has had in the past. The broke the world up into regions so they could maximize their profits by setting prices 'appropriate' to the region. When the internet developed, we learned that we could purchase the movies/music for cheaper if we purchased from a different region. Why should a movie cost me more because I make more money than someone in a different region?

Best buy?

[jaymz666]

Best buy has qr codes on a lot of their price tags. How do they figure people to use those without a smartphone.

Re:Best buy?

[Kral_Blbec]

They also have an official best buy android app. I guess they are trying to lure the wanna-be nerds who dont know how horrible their prices are.

Re:Best buy?

[whitehaint]

Ugh, I have to laugh when I need to get something there that my local guy doesn't have. Just looking at hard drive enclosures at least 150% more cost. I was surprised they had a blu ray player for one dollar more than walmart though.

Re:Best buy?

[jgtg32a]

The Amazon app (iOS) allows you to take a picture of the product itself and it will match it up.

Re:Best buy?

[MightyYar]

The last time I bought a camera, they were within a few pennies of the lowest cost (before tax, natch).

Re:Best buy?

[MrBippers]

The most egregious markups are on the accessories. Look at the $25 USB printer cable or the $30 HDMI cable. They don't have to make the profit on the big ticket items if they can milk you on all the little things that go with them.

Re:Best buy?

[MirthScout]

Wow, those prices have come down. They used to try to charge $120 for a HDMI cable. They didn't like me very much when I'd tell people where to get the same cable for $10.

Re:Best buy?

[MrBippers]

I hear you. Ex-geek squad here. I was never able to look someone in the face and tell them yes, you really should pay us $29 to install that ram for you.

Re:Best buy?

[jp10558]

I don't know, I always saw it like paying someone $20 to rotate my tires. You know what you're doing, you have the tools, and you warranty the work. If you're not a tinkerer or a computer person, why would you want to take a crash course on electronics safety and a maintenance manual to install RAM?

Granted, installing RAM isn't hard, but in many cases it's not obvious how to do it either (I'm thinking Laptops especially).

Wouldn't it be ironic

[suso]

Wouldn't it be ironic if later stores started banning phone use in stores?

Re:Wouldn't it be ironic

[Yvan256]

Yeah, what's next? Movie theaters banning bringing food and drinks from your home? Hollywood telling us that we can't format-shift the DVDs we buy?

Re:Wouldn't it be ironic

[davidbrit2]

Then I'd wager customers will skip the bother and just order online or go somewhere else first. Talk about cutting off one's nose to spite one's face.

Re:Wouldn't it be ironic

[natehoy]

What do you mean, started? I've been asked to leave several stores because I have a notebook and am writing down item descriptions and prices for comparison-shopping with other local stores.

This was long before da interwebz existed, and that practice is not at all uncommon even today.

Try it sometime. Take a notebook and pen into a store, and pick a few products, stand in front of them, and start scribbling into your notebook. 90% of the time, nothing will happen, but the other 10% can be fun.

Re:Wouldn't it be ironic

[pongo000]

No one (other than LE) has the right to be present on private property if they've been asked to leave. It's one of those deals where you can argue all you want, but you'll still get arrested (or issued a ticket) for trespassing. The details will be left for your court date.

FWIW, I've been asked at a big box retailer to not take pictures of merchandise (I was looking at CCTVs, and didn't want to write down all the different model numbers). I didn't protest, mainly because I knew if the police got involved, I *would* be the (immediate) loser. Why make a spectacle of yourself if you know you'll end up looking like the fool?

Re:Wouldn't it be ironic

[suso]

I know that, but I just wish the general public could see the big iron spikes that are on the side of the golden road of consumerism.

Re:Wouldn't it be ironic

[Nicholas Schumacher]

Any store that did that would immediately lose my business. I have a job where I spend a lot of time on-call and I am not going to risk missing a call just because some store wants to keep me from checking the prices of their competitors.

Re:Wouldn't it be ironic

[PitaBred]

They'd see a severe reduction in business from me. I do buy things in stores as long as they give me a reason to. Remove those reasons, and I'm not gonna shop there.

And Nothing of Value was Lost

[rwv]

Stores can no longer use tricks to get me to spend my money there, and I'm okay with that.

I actually bought an iPod case at Best Buy the other day for $11 knowing it was available on Amazon for $7. The brick-and-mortar shopping experience is still worth it if I want something now or doing what to worry about paying for shipping (usually I buy *more* than I need at Amazon for small purchases to qualify for free shipping).

At the end of the day, the customer wins. The best stores win. And crappy stores lose. This is a good thing.

Re:And Nothing of Value was Lost

[DogDude]

"The best stores win. And crappy stores lose"

Best Buy qualifies as one of the "best stores" in your mind? Seriously? Brain dead staff, and somebody checking your receipt at the door? Those are some amazingly low standards you have!

Re:And Nothing of Value was Lost

[Anonymous Coward]

I actually bought an iPod case at Best Buy the other day for $11 knowing it was available on Amazon for $7. The brick-and-mortar shopping experience is still worth it if I want something now or doing what to worry about paying for shipping (usually I buy *more* than I need at Amazon for small purchases to qualify for free shipping).

Shipping is the biggie. Some places still only ship to the billing address, which is no good to me unless they can give me a very narrow delivery window, preferably at the weekend. Unless they can do that, or deliver to my place of work, they're no good to me. I'll certainly pay a moderate premium for the convenience of taking a box home with me - and having somewhere I can return it if there's a problem, instead of having to deal with returns via mail as well.

I also enjoy browsing and spur of the moment purchases, especially of smaller items - books, CDs, DVDs. HMV is apparently struggling in the UK, largely as a result of internet competition, but it's not helping itself - the choice was very limited. There's just so much stuff now that you can't buy anywhere except on the internet, certainly outside of the biggest cities.

(posting anonymously because the login doesn't seem to be working right now. I was logged on in Chrome, but the edit boxes don't work properly. Seriously, for a geek site, it's amazing that this one just doesn't work as well as 99% of the other forum sites out there. I digress).

Re:And Nothing of Value was Lost

[Antisyzygy]

Shit try working there. The type of customers Best Buy gets are morons. I worked for Geek squad in college and I had to deal with more idiots and rude customers than I could handle. Routinely I would get blamed for their computer problems or stupidity and several times I had people take my name down so they could go bitch to the manager if I didn't get their computer done before everyone else that came before them.

Re:And Nothing of Value was Lost

[mcmonkey]

That's fine if, for example, you're looking for a pair of Levi jeans. You want the Levi jeans in your size at the lowest price.

But what if you want a pair of jeans, from any manufacturer, that will last? What if you're shopping for quality, does your app do that?

No, it doesn't, because the only jeans worth owning were made 20 years ago (or more). Anything made today is crap because everyone is competing on price alone.

And yes, I do put my money where my mouth is. I am willing to pay more for goods from manufacturers with a reputation for quality and good customer reviews. And no, I do not buy jeans.

Re:And Nothing of Value was Lost

[rwv]

You would rely on the staff at any retailer to help you make buying decisions? How quaint!

You actively avoid shopping at brick-and-mortar stores that find it valueable to pay somebody $8/hr to prevent theft? How idealistic!

How does that feel? Does it hurt that I dismissed your reasons to avoid shopping at Best Buy? I hope it did after you insulted me for choosing to occasionally patronize the big blue technology warehouse.

Re:And Nothing of Value was Lost

[yodleboy]

wow, what's with all the best buy hate around here? Yes, the staff is clueless. Yes the prices are ridiculous on some things. However, they are no worse than most other brick and mortar electronics stores. You want bad? Bad was the late and unlamented Circuit City. They took everything you don't like about Best Buy to another level. What other options are there? Frys? Great prices, but often not so great locations and as of last week they still check your receipt at the door. There are other chain electronics stores like Conn's. Which ironically was just sued not so long ago by the TX attorney general for false advertising, not honoring extended warranties they sold and just being sneaky in general.For a completely generic item then you might find it at Walmart or Target, but good luck if you need some help. If you want to pay even MORE than Best Buy, you can probably find a Radio Shack and play 20 questions while overpaying.

Really, I'm no fan of Best Buy. When I absolutely need something now and they have a comparable price, then I'll go there. However, they don't have a lock on clueless employees, overpricing, receipt checking or any of the other complaints I've seen here. Show me a chain electronics retailer that gives great customer service and is even close to amazon, newegg, or even Frys pricing. Personally, I've yet to see one. The good stores are expensive, the bad stores are cheap. Pick one.

Re:And Nothing of Value was Lost

[Anonymous Coward]

That is funny, I used to work for the help desk for Best Buy and spoke daily with multiple Geek Squad employees who were so incompetent that when a register would go off-line they didn't know how to change a network cable. The caliber of a Best Buy employee matches the caliber of the customers, especially for those working in Geek Squad.

Re:And Nothing of Value was Lost

[tophermeyer]

The thing I like about places like Best Buy is that they make a point to keep live displays. I can actually put my hands on a laptop, or check out a TV before I buy it. I don't mind paying a little more for that convenience.

We (nerds) are fortunate that we don't need to interact with the staff to help us make informed decisions. We just need them to tell us if the thing we want is in stock.

I'll admit the receipt checking is a little inconvenient. Especially when it is obvious I just came through the checkout line. But if it helps with loss prevention, it probably helps to keep their costs down somewhat.

Re:And Nothing of Value was Lost

[DogDude]

My feelings aren't hurt. As an avowed geek, I've *never* had a reason to shop in a Best Buy. I can get all of the geek stuff I need at my local retailers who yes, do have useful staff who help me make decisions, and no, don't assume that I'm a thief and check my receipt 10 feet away from the cash register.

I don't care if you shop there or not. The trend in retailing is consumers are becoming dumber and are continuing to lower their standards. That's a fact, and there's nothing I, or anybody else, can do about it. But you did lump Best Buy in as one of the "best stores" that win, and that's just silly.

Re:And Nothing of Value was Lost

[Aphoxema]

The thing I like about places like Best Buy is that they make a point to keep live displays. I can actually put my hands on a laptop, or check out a TV before I buy it. I don't mind paying a little more for that convenience.

I largely agree but I've been seeing a trend across most stores locally where when a demo is broken or otherwise unsightly it's just left that way until something replaces it. Burned out Zunes, scratched DS's, crushed LCDs, stolen parts, vandalism... I'd hope that sort of thing would either be taken more seriously or scrapped entirely.

Re:And Nothing of Value was Lost

[cdrguru]

Pay for Amazon Prime. Free two-day shipping on everything and it pays for itself with one heavy package that you want quick. Then you can buy the $2 item on Amazon and get it in two days and not feel bad.

Re:And Nothing of Value was Lost

[natehoy]

Compared to what?

Amazon, where I can't see the item in person and I have to buy it based on a picture and some reviews?

Wal-Mart, where the item selection is so pathetically poor they might as well not have a display, and half the display models are broken or displayed only as cardboard or plastic replacements?

At least with Best Buy, when I'm shopping for a digital camera, I can look at a dizzying array of cameras. I can hold any one of them as an actual functioning digital camera in my hands, take a few pictures with it, drive through the menus a few times to see if they are intuitive, etc. When I'm shopping for a netbook, I can try out the keyboard for fit and feel, look at the screen for brightness and clarity, etc.

When I'm shopping for a hard drive, there's nothing to display. It's a hard drive. In a box. I'll go to Beast Buy and pay the premium if I need it today, or mail order it if I'm OK with waiting a week. Hell, I'll even go to Wally World if there's a chance they'll have what I want, but I'm very frequently disappointed there because the selection of any one thing is pathetic, and the selections usually involve the lowest-common-denominator products in each category.

Re:And Nothing of Value was Lost

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

wow, what's with all the best buy hate around here? Yes, the staff is clueless. Yes the prices are ridiculous on some things. However, they are no worse than most other brick and mortar electronics stores. You want bad? Bad was the late and unlamented Circuit City.

I used to go to Circuit City for purchases I needed right now. They were located right next to a Best Buy, which I learned to avoid in a hurry. The reasons were as follows. Circuit City did not want to inspect my receipt every time I left the store. Circuit City carried more Mac specific products and weren't as absurdly clueless (just moderately clueless). But really the clincher was Best Buy's pioneering of the adversarial customer relationship. The corporation decided people who comparison shop and come in to buy the loss leader items were a problem and should be driven out of the store. They referred to a group of smart customers as "devil customers" and encouraged staff to harass and hound people buying just a loss leader item to buy something else or get useless warranty plans until that person was so annoyed that they left the store. This was Best Buy's business model, to harass and annoy customers who were not clueless enough. Well, it worked, which is why I haven't set foot in one in years. I'm happier that way and so is Best Buy's management. Understandably it generated a lot of anger and even hate as was intended. Does that explain the situation to you?

Re:And Nothing of Value was Lost

[DogDude]

Compared to what?

Compared to local stores. We're not quite at the point where it's Major International Conglomerate Online or Major International Conglomerate Big Box.

For cameras, I go to my local camera shops. The people know what they're talking about, and the prices are fair. For hard drives, I'll go to my local retailer. Their prices are fair, and it's a painless experience.

Re:And Nothing of Value was Lost

[natehoy]

Unfortunately, we are. There isn't a specialty camera shop within an hours' drive of my house. The options I laid out are the options available to me, unless I want to drive over an hour.

My "local shop" *IS* Best Buy. It's the closest thing I've got to a "local shop". They and Wal-Mart drove out all the really "local shops" about 5 years ago.

Re:And Nothing of Value was Lost

[DogDude]

Jesus, I'd hate to live where you live. Sounds like a miserable place. Best of luck!

Re:And Nothing of Value was Lost

[natehoy]

On the upside, my local town has 5,000 residents, the larger town next door where all the stores are has 15,000, and I can afford a few acres of land for my privacy. It's all about tradeoffs. :)

Re:And Nothing of Value was Lost

[yodleboy]

that's interesting because I stopped going to Circuit City because I found I couldn't walk in there and just freaking browse without endless approaches from staff that couldn't take "NO" or "I'M JUST LOOKING" for an answer. For several years, Best Buy made very few attempts to actually SELL me something, unlike places like Circuit City or even Sears where the floor people work or worked on a commission. Every major chain does the annoying ever-present staff, the deal of the century up-sale, the can't live without it warranty...

So you had a bad experience at a Best Buy, but I'm dying to know how coming in for a loss leader item led to an adversarial or confrontational shopping experience unless you told some pimply sales kid to piss off every time you were approached. I guess I'm just having trouble seeing any more 'hounding and harrassing' from this chain than I've seen at any other. Maybe what you took as corporate policy was just an idiot of a store manager.

Re:And Nothing of Value was Lost

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

So you had a bad experience at a Best Buy, but I'm dying to know how coming in for a loss leader item led to an adversarial or confrontational shopping experience...

You misunderstand. I was not referring just to my shopping experience. "Adversarial Customer Relationship" was the industry term for the business method Best Buy pioneered. They wrote papers for business magazines about how smart it was to intentionally drive away "devil" customers and concentrate on acquiring "angel" customers (defined by how easy customers were to upsell, sell absurdly priced cables, sell extended warranties and useless tech services to). While I certainly experienced this business method, we're not talking about a bad experience at one store, this was (implemented in 2004) and I believe still is their corporate policy and they train their staff accordingly, albeit not using quite so blatantly unfriendly terms.They trained staff to categorize customers and flag "unprofitable" ones for mistreatment in an attempt to get rid of them. This included intentionally putting some customers on hold for long periods of time in order to make them angry enough to not come back and culling those customers from coupon mailing lists.

Here's a quote from a newspaper (Wall St. Journal) discussing it:

Best Buy estimates that as many as a fifth of 500 million customer visits each year are undesirable. And the CEO wants to be rid of them.

He goes on to talk about how the customer is not always right and they just don't want some kinds of customers because they use coupons and take advantage of the deals and don't make enough money for them. But, they need to be careful not to let the public image reveal they are a company that mistreats some customers because that might drive away profitable customers.

Re:And Nothing of Value was Lost

[macragge]

The brick-and-mortar shopping experience is still worth it if I want something now or doing what to worry about paying for shipping (usually I buy *more* than I need at Amazon for small purchases to qualify for free shipping).

Its easy to spend exactly what you need for free shipping with tools like
Amazon Filler Item Finder and Slick Fillers

Re:And Nothing of Value was Lost

[tycoex]

I agree. I can't stand Best Buy, especially Geek Squad. I've taken in two laptops into them (fool me once, fool me twice >.>) to have them look at. Both times they told me that the motherboard was shot, and were very excited to tell me all the wonderful things I could do if I just bought a brand new computer, right then, from Best Buy.

Well I figured out by myself that the first laptop just had a corrupted stick of memory, pulled it out and had no more problems. The second laptop had a busted HD. Put a new HD in and re-installed windows, no more problems.

Don't ever trust Geek Squad. They're not computer repairmen, they're salesmen.

Re:And Nothing of Value was Lost

[Antisyzygy]

I forgot to mention that sometimes you have to see people's naked pictures they have on their computers. Its fucking gross.

Re:And Nothing of Value was Lost

[h4rr4r]

You can order good jeans on line or any other pants you like.

Re:And Nothing of Value was Lost

[DogDude]

That makes sense. Sounds like a decent trade off.

Offer something else in return

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe if you can't offer a better (or the same) price, have a better and cheaper extended protection plan. Many people still waste money on those.

Added value

[danhaas]

If the retailer isn't adding any benefit to the purchase, such as on site information, delivery time, ease of return, product adjustment for you needs, or just a cozy ambient, then he shouldn't get his cut. If the retailer is asking too high a price to add those benefits, then he will have to adjust.

You can buy coffee through the internet, or in major supermarkets, much cheaper than in a coffee shop. But coffee shops will still be around because they provide a service and they add value to the product.

Re:Added value

[rjstanford]

If the retailer isn't adding any benefit to the purchase, such as on site information, delivery time, ease of return, product adjustment for you needs, or just a cozy ambient, then he shouldn't get his cut. If the retailer is asking too high a price to add those benefits, then he will have to adjust.

You can buy coffee through the internet, or in major supermarkets, much cheaper than in a coffee shop. But coffee shops will still be around because they provide a service and they add value to the product.

And just as most coffee shops are understandably upset if you bring your own coffee in a thermos but expect to enjoy their benefits, most B&M stores are upset if you use their benefits (personnel, demo models, etc) and then make your purchase elsewhere. The only difference is that the retailer was kind enough to front you their "free" value-adds before your purchase, with the understanding that if you decide favorably that they'll get your business.

Good retailers will stay out of the price wars

[Anonymous Coward]

Good retailers will avoid the race to the bottom and compete on the basis of, heaven forbid, SERVICE. If I need a completely interchangeable widget, sure I'll shop on price. If there's no differentiation between brand A and brand B, you don't need help to get the product that best suits you.

For the case of more complicated purchasing decisions, it makes sense to go to a retailer that can help you find the product that meets your needs the best. This isn't even a novel idea. Stores dedicated to the sport of running which, as near as I can tell, sell primarily shoes continue to exist despite the existence of cheap shoes at Wal-Mart, Target, etc.

Pretty much any product targeted to people with a specific need fits this model. You don't go to Best Buy for your latest gaming computer any more than you buy running shoes at Wal-Mart. The only limit to this is whether or not a market is big enough to support specialty stores locally. When it's not (like gaming computers in most areas) the internet fills the gap (newegg, etc).

It's not hard to see the way out of the problem if you're not so short-sighted that you shop on the basis of price above all else.

Stores?

[j00r0m4nc3r]

What are these "stores" that you speak of? Some quaint little novelty from days of yore?

Re:Stores?

[DogDude]

Some of us still care about our local communities. Not all of us are willing to sell out our community so that we can save an extra nickel. But thanks to people like you, retail stores may very well someday be gone altogether.

Re:Stores?

[Anonymous Coward]

What is this community thing you speak of? I have some extra space in my basement, how big is it?

Re:Stores?

[MightyYar]

But thanks to people like you

You'll always have food stores, clothing retailers, and appliance shops. Workmen will always need building supplies. Amazon is the new Sears catalog - the difference being that a web site is a lot cheaper to run than sending out a huge catalog to every address in the US, then staffing a huge call center to take the orders. And their business is not as easily eroded by boutiques like LL Bean - Sears got crushed by leaner specialty catalogs, Amazon can add a specialty section for very little additional cost.

But Amazon will not kill your local retailers - people still like fresh vegetables and want to try on clothes. Appliances need to be repaired and are heavy to ship. People need drug stores and their requisite Hallmark section. And of course, people like their restaurants and ice cream.

Re:Stores?

[DogDude]

This post put a huge smile on my face.

Re:Stores?

[Lilith's Heart-shape]

But thanks to people like you, retail stores may very well someday be gone altogether.

You're welcome. Personally, I despise retail stores. I hate listening to shitty Muzak. I hate listening to other people's children. I hate that the stores are always too damned hot. And I find myself reaching for a weapon whenever a salesperson approaches me, because there isn't a salesperson on earth who can say more than three words without giving me cause to ask "What would Hugo Stiglitz do?"

The sooner retail stores fuck off and die, the better. And don't give me any shit about "community" while I'm dancing on the graves of businesses that clung to a 20th century business model years into the 21st century. Get with the program, or get fucked!

Re:Stores?

[j00r0m4nc3r]

I think you're exactly right. Somehow the word "community" has become synonymous with "business". Communities should not be based on business, but on a goal to achieve a common good. The common good is not necessarily based on providing business to one or two local shop owners, but the entire community. The entire community does not benefit from me shoveling money into the pocket of a local businessman, unless the goods he is selling are coming from local producers. How is giving a local businessman $20 for a Chinese-produced toy better for the community than giving $10 to Amazon, and using the other $10 to support my local school or homeless shelter?

Re:Stores?

[Lilith's Heart-shape]

Somehow the word "community" has become synonymous with "business". Communities should not be based on business, but on a goal to achieve a common good.

I agree, but before community can truly be based on common cause, people must be liberated from the tyranny of geography. If the only thing a group of people have in common is that they live close to one another, can they really be called a community?

This actually isn't all that good

[sahonen]

Rooting for all the stores that can't compete on price to go out of business is rooting for Wal-Mart.

Re:This actually isn't all that good

[whitehaint]

Well look at it this way, if Walmart can sell item X for 200 dollars and still make money, why does some other big box like Best Buy feel the need to charge 300 dollars for that same item? Service and knowledge are equally shit, the items are the same, only the profit has been increased to feed the greedy. All this will serve to do is hurt those businesses that bemoan their poor revenue while jacking prices up beyond anything reasonable. OF course, if the stores would negotiate on the prices it could save them too. My local computer store has the highest price on parts for a new build, if they would give a discount for buying everything there (~1,000 bucks) I would go with them, but because they don't negotiate they lose out to the internet stores.

Re:This actually isn't all that good

[alen]

not really

i know people that shop in wally world and a lot of them say that a lot of things are more expensive. and electronics are only cheaper in wally world because they are usually either brand X stuff, special models that are made cheaper or just the cheapest configuration for something like computers.

on things like X-Boxes and iPods the retailers don't make any money. the money is made on the accessories. the $300 x-box means $280 in revenue for the store after you account for the CC merchant fee. then you have to pay Microsoft for the x-box and with the cost of doing business it's a loss leader for the store

Re:This actually isn't all that good

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll do you one better and say it's rooting for China.

Re:This actually isn't all that good

[Shadow99_1]

The obvious answer should be: "Because Walmart is able to leverage a better deal on item X then Best Buy".

I once toured the headquarters of Welsh's (they make grape and other fruit beverages). The management explained that not only could Walmart tell them "Your selling item X to us at Z price, but you'll make this new blend we want and sell it for Y price." To many of their customers had no other way to buy their products than through Walmart for them to refuse.

I think that should worry people. This was about 5 years ago as well, I'm sure it's gotten worse since then.

You also forget that sometimes 'item X' is in fact 'type of item X' for people. Walmart may sell a TV that has features D, E, F, and G and Best Buy have a TV with those same features, but the brands are different as is the price. This doesn't matter to some people... But if Best Buy product is of higher quality (and so has a higher price) than Walmart item of equal features (with a lower price), guess were the average person will go? This puts superior and somewhat more costly items at a disadvantage.

Re:This actually isn't all that good

[rjstanford]

Well look at it this way, if Walmart can sell item X for 200 dollars and still make money, why does some other big box like Best Buy feel the need to charge 300 dollars for that same item? Service and knowledge are equally shit, the items are the same, only the profit has been increased to feed the greedy. All this will serve to do is hurt those businesses that bemoan their poor revenue while jacking prices up beyond anything reasonable. OF course, if the stores would negotiate on the prices it could save them too. My local computer store has the highest price on parts for a new build, if they would give a discount for buying everything there (~1,000 bucks) I would go with them, but because they don't negotiate they lose out to the internet stores.

Because frequently Walmart isn't allowing the wholesaler any profit on the item, but its worth just not losing money on it to get their volume sky-high and make their manufacturing costs lower on the items they're selling for more money to other retailers. Sad, but true.

Back when I was in the logistics field, Walmart would often end up getting the manufacturers to offer Net 90 terms (WM pays 3 months after they order or receive an item) even though their internal turnaround was about a week, thus giving them an interest-free loan of the money for 3 months - another advantage the smaller retailers just didn't get. Of course, you could refuse their terms, but they'd just pull your product and sub in someone elses, and there goes a lot of your scale efficiency right down the toilet (plus loss of market share and brand recognition)...

Once you're large enough, different operating principles apply.

Re:This actually isn't all that good

[tixxit]

Walmart shoots for certain price points, and those are often met by low-quality items. I know that Walmart single-handedly saved Levis from bankruptcy. However, Levis actually had to create a whole new line of jeans for Walmart, because none of their jeans at the time could be made cheap enough for Walmart's asking price. If you are looking for a cheap commodity item, then Walmart is great. If you are looking for the best value for a non-commodity item, then Walmart may not be your best bet.

Re:This actually isn't all that good

[Anonymous Coward]

Bullshit. I know the gas station/quickie mart across the block has 20% higher prices than target, which is generally a little more expensive than walmart. However, it costs me no gasoline and less time to walk the block. When I want a few things, I'll stop at Target. When we're goign grovcery shopping for the week, we go to Walmart. All 3 have a place and a price point.

 

Re:This actually isn't all that good

[jedidiah]

Despite the fact that I think Walmart is evil and a threat to freedom, democracy and capitalism I stopped having any sympathy for Walmart's competitors once I realized they are terribly incompetent. This was a problem even before there was a question of whether or not e-commerce would wipe out physical retail. Most other retailers make stupid mistakes that leave Walmart or Amazon the only companies in any position to be useful. They will fail to stock a wide range of basic useful items. Nevermind the obscure stuff.

Quite often, a Walmart or Amazon purchase is the direct result of mediocre retailers failing to be useful.

The stores that are worthy of a cross town drive will survive. It's the mediocre middle that is under threat.

Walmart is evil. Albertson's is incompetent.

Re:This actually isn't all that good

[h4rr4r]

Levis has not made jeans in decades. All their production is done in third world hell holes. They should have went bankrupt, they are only another middle man.

Re:This actually isn't all that good

[innocent_white_lamb]

I remember reading an article a while back about tool purchases at Walmart, specifically that they had some manufacturer use plastic gears in their drills. The drills apparently looked identical to the drills at hardware stores, but the hardware store models had metal gears.

Self Price Match

[Cemu]

I recently shopped at both Best Buy and Sears and discovered that their online store sale prices were $80 and $70 cheaper than what their brick and mortar store could offer. I showed a sales member their store's site on my phone but it turns out that they can't match their own prices. I do, however, like both stores' website's option to buy now and pickup in the store. Yep, I bought the item online while in the store and just walked over to customer service and picked it up 10 minutes later.

Re:Self Price Match

[Lumpy]

Sears buy online and click on "pickup at store". then drive to store and pick it up.

Re:Self Price Match

[AndrewNeo]

Maybe you should have tried a little harder. Best Buy is supposed to match their website prices. There was a huge ordeal a while back on how their in-store computers were showing different prices on their own website so they didn't have to match the lower price on the internet facing one.

Re:Self Price Match

[LamboAlpha]

I know that Best Buy will price match the item internally (Best Buy online vs. Best buy brick and mortar), if you ask the cashier about it. I have done it on more than one occasion this year.

Re:Self Price Match

[hellkyng]

I worked at good old profitable Circuit City a while back. We had the same policy we couldn't match our online prices, but we were instructed to help customers buy online and pick up in store rather then take em to the cleaners. Which was nice for the customer.

On the other hand we charged 25$ for a USB printer cable, and offered a "gold" one at 35$. Also on the day before Black Friday we had to go through and mark up all the prices on things that weren't door busters. So not only are you crazy 3:00 AM shoppers out of your minds, your also paying a premium for the crap you grab by the handfuls.

They also instructed us to charge 130$ to image your PC, which was almost always the recommended solution when a customer had malware. Not really because of the profit (im sure there was a lot) but because we could tell customer it wasn't our fault when they got re-infected.

Oh and as a consumer you should know if you want to extended warranty on a product (don't bother) never get one without having the cost of the product you are purchasing discounted. For example on an expensive TV if you get the extra warranty, ask a MANAGER for 10-20% off the cost of the TV.

Never pay for any service at a big box retailer either, its almost certainly a rip off and something you can do yourself. The "new pc setup" was like 45$ and all we did was turn it on, delete the crapware, and install Office.

Too many more stories, I am starting to have flashbacks of screaming customers though. Everyone should work in a bix box retail store to see the underhanded stuff that goes on.

Re:Self Price Match

[tompaulco]

Me too. Best Buys price on a single stick of 1 GB PC3200 DDRAM is the same price as two sticks of the same from Best Buy Online.

Re:Self Price Match

[penguinchris]

A few years ago (before internet-enabled phones were ubiquitous) I ordered something online for in-store pickup at Best Buy... from one of the laptops on display in the same Best Buy, because the price was cheaper. I guess that was before they tried any of the trickery you describe.

Re:Self Price Match

[mrman18766]

I've had the opposite experience at Best Buy... Back when Guitar Hero 5 came out the best price I could find was on the Walmart website. Walmart would not match their own online price. Best Buy on the other hand matched the Walmart online price I showed them on my phone.

Total price and instant Gratification

[Yvan256]

Yes it may be cheaper online, but don't forget to add the shipping cost. Not all places offer free shipping and sometimes there's a minimum amount to spend to get the free shipping, etc. Don't forget cross-border delays and charges or you'll be shockingly sorry. Especially those brokerage fees, which often are more than the shipping cost added with the customs fees.

But where the physical retail stores still have the advantage is in how fast you're getting what you want, if they have it in stock.

With these two things in mind, the only difference is that you can compare prices with other nearby physical stores without actually having to drive there to check the prices. The real competition is still the other stores, nothing really changed if you want something "right now".

Re:Total price and instant Gratification

[Walter White]

I also consider how many times I get to the store and find the item not in stock. If I wind up going store to store looking for something, my time and gasoline costs quickly burn through what I could have paid for shipping.

Re:Total price and instant Gratification

[AndrewNeo]

What are "cross-border delays and charges"? Also, I pay for Amazon Prime, and that's a flat $80 for shipping on their stocked products. I'm pretty certain just a couple things out of the lot that I've ordered this year saved me that $80 on their own.

Re:Total price and instant Gratification

[Yvan256]

I'm guessing you never ordered anything outside of the USA.

For us Canadian, ordering from the USA usually results in our order being hold by customs, delayed for a day or two, then having UPS charge us brokerage fees of 35$ on top of customs fees of 10$ and UPS own 25$ shipping cost.

Re:Total price and instant Gratification

[rjstanford]

I'm a prime customer too - got to say, I'm a big fan. Just got a mattress (a mattress!) delivered. Two days, no charge. Sheesh...

Re:Total price and instant Gratification

[AndrewNeo]

I have, but never anything really direct. Just stuff from China/Hong Kong on eBay, which does get held by customs but I've never had to pay customs fees on my own.

Re:Total price and instant Gratification

[cdrguru]

Amazon Prime is the answer to this. Free two-day shipping on everything for $80 a year. One heavy package that isn't shipped free covers it for the year. No taxes, no shipping charges.

Amazon and Walmart will truely be the only stores left in 10 years. I'm not saying this is a good thing, but it is a fact that once you start comparing prices there is no point to going to a physical store other than Walmart for the cheap Chinese crap. Anything else you just buy online and usually from Amazon with Prime.

End result is there are no other stores left in the USA. This should be obvious to anyone with a smartphone and an Internet connection. If you are shopping using these tools then all you care about is price and the brick-and-mortar stores are never going to be able to complete.

This does mean that there will be vast swaths of empty parking lots with bulldozed stores soon. But that is the price we pay for only looking at price and ignoring customer service. But heck, I got the cheapest price, right?

Re:Total price and instant Gratification

[Anonymous Coward]

That scenario is even more fun when the store's web site incorrectly reports that the item is actually in stock. Not only does that prompt me to buy the item online, but it also tends to prevent me from visiting that store again out of sheer annoyance.

Re:Total price and instant Gratification

[amaiman]

Be careful with larger items...I've noticed that Amazon often has a much higher price on certain heavy/difficult to ship things like furniture when they're "Prime Eligible". It's sometimes cheaper to buy it elsewhere (even with a shipping charge) than to get the "free" shipping that's actually built-in to the higher price. For normal stuff (books, electronics, media, etc.), Prime is great.

Re:Total price and instant Gratification

[blair1q]

The lesson to take from that is: Amazon is underserving your area and you can start your own online sales business and undercut them by providing the same service, only correctly.

Re:Total price and instant Gratification

[Yvan256]

I wasn't talking about Amazon, just USA->Canada orders in general.

Amazon even has a .ca website, so I'm guessing orders are (probably) shipped from Ontario. Same thing for Apple, Dell, etc.

Re:Total price and instant Gratification

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.amazon.ca ???

Re:Total price and instant Gratification

[Yvan256]

AndrewNeo talked about Amazon, not me. It was a general comment about cross-border orders.

My phone saved me just the other day...

[BobMcD]

I got on the website, researched exactly the TV I wanted, checked stock online, and headed in to actually buy the thing. It was a 42 inch LDC for a very nice price, and they had eleven of them in the store. When I arrived in the department, I couldn't find any on display. I found the 42 inch LED, but it was close to $200 higher. I asked the sales guy, and he said they didn't have the other one, but the LED as better anyway. I made him look it up in the computer. He wasn't happy, but I eventually got the TV I actually wanted...

When you get home?

[way2trivial]

pfft.. order it standing there?

"To improve your shopping experience,

[Thyrsus]

this store is now a cell-phone free environment."

There. If I predict it, it will be less likely. ;-)

Re:"To improve your shopping experience,

[itsownreward]

Good luck with that. Many stores can't survive the bad word of mouth they'd get for throwing people out for using their phones in whatever way they please. Meanwhile, I'll keep happily scanning barcodes on products to see if it's a good deal where I am or not.

Re:"To improve your shopping experience,

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

this store is now a cell-phone free environment."

There. If I predict it, it will be less likely. ;-)

This is exactly why you don't want places like theaters implementing phone jamming devices. Once it becomes 'acceptable', doing it at a place like Best Buy gets lots easier.

Re:"To improve your shopping experience,

[blair1q]

Cool. I'll just leave the cell-phone outside. Along with the pocket it's in, and the ass those pants are on.

Re:"To improve your shopping experience,

[slinches]

Sounds like a good idea to me. No people wandering mindlessly while talking on the phone, loitering in main walkways and holding up lines at the register.

Re:"To improve your shopping experience,

[h4rr4r]

This store is now a customer free environment. Reality talking there.

Re:"To improve your shopping experience,

[Migraineman]

If they built the building as a big RF screen room, they could do what they want inside. The FCC can't complain, because there aren't any emissions over the public airwaves.

Let me just play

[Ryanrule]

my little violin here. I'll be performing at the "former retail worker's schadenfraude party" this saturday.

Re:Let me just play

[rjstanford]

my little violin here. I'll be performing at the "former retail worker's schadenfraude party" this saturday.

Hopefully you don't create a product or service that was depending on someone else to purchase it, where that person either was a former retail worker, or made their money directly or indirectly from sales to said former retail worker.

Just sayin'.

Used this at HHGregg before

[Shivetya]

and I am going to try it again this year. Amazing what prices they will match when it comes to getting a sale. This year I need two 42 LCD televisions, they want 699 whereas I can get them from a certain major online retailer wants 599 and others 589 with no tax or shipping costs.

Will be curious what price they will go down to.

Re:Used this at HHGregg before

[lag10]

and I am going to try it again this year. Amazing what prices they will match when it comes to getting a sale. This year I need two 42 LCD televisions, they want 699 whereas I can get them from a certain major online retailer wants 599 and others 589 with no tax or shipping costs.

Will be curious what price they will go down to.

I have to disagree with your assessment of HHGregg's willingness to price match.

A local department store chain had a pedestal for LG washers/dryers on sale. I called HHGregg ahead of time to ensure that they could match the price, and the answer was "we sure can."

After a half hour or so of having the sales associate verify the deal on the competitor's website and asking his manager for authorization, he finally came back that they could not match the price. Apparently, the competitor's price was "below cost." Despite HHGregg's 110% price guarantee, they could not even match a competitor's price by 80%.

BestBuy had absolutely no qualms matching the department store's price, and they actually had the pedestals ready to go at the store. HHGregg would have had to order them from their warehouse, taking additional time.

I cannot honestly imagine myself ever again walking into HHGregg.

What they are really saying...

[JavaBear]

"We are afraid now that customers can figure out we are cheating them with false advertising, before we manage to snatch their money."

I was actaully doing this over 2 weeks ago

[eaddict]

We were at Best Buy and the X Box game we wanted was out. I took a shot of the product bar code and found it nearby. I really didn't care so much about the savings and being able to get it right now without the 'oh, we can get it shipped to this store". I managed to locate it AND call the store that had it to hold it while I was in Best Buy.

I would hate to be a retailer in this day and age...

Devil's advocate

[Arancaytar]

It's a good thing to give the customers more transparency in who they do business with, but I am concerned that this will reduce competition even further to price warfare. Quality, safety, environmental sustainability and the welfare of employees may take even more of a backseat than it already does.

Needless to say, this transparency is not the root cause or a bad thing. However, with shoppers caring more about price than anything else, it is vital to regulate industry and retail to ensure that companies do not rape their people and the environment to stay competitive.

Re:Devil's advocate

[Anonymous Coward]

The answer is transparency back to initial manufacture.

Re:Devil's advocate

[lightbox32]

This is how things work in a capitalist society. In the same way that companies do not care about customers beyond their money, most people will only look at the price. Quality, service and other factors come in a distant second place. Try telling a company "I've always been a loyal customer but this time I can only pay $x because my son needs a new pair of sneakers for school". The day companies start caring about something else then revenue is the day the consumer may start looking at something other than price.

Re:Devil's advocate

[Anonymous Coward]

The only problem is that quality, safety, environmental sustainability and the welfare of the employees all take a backseat regardless of whether or not you get a good deal.

Free wi-fi

[Culture20]

This is why a lot of stores provide free wi-fi. Strangely, competitors sites are slow to load. Hmm.

The elephant in the room

[Walter White]

If it's anything much more than impulse buy, I know the price before I even enter the store. And often I find the price is less at Internet based retailers so I might not even make the trip. I suspect that has more impact than price shopping between various brick and mortar retailers. I have a smart phone but have not used it to price shop because I have no need.

Technological solution

[operagost]

Maybe this is why I can't get a cell signal inside Home Depot or Kohl's. Technological countermeasures?

Re:Technological solution

[nelsonal]

Probably not intential metal roofing is the cheapest material.

Reserve Online

[Anonymous Coward]

I frequently walk into a shop, browse, and then see if the shop has cheaper deals online.

If they do, I reserve to collect in store then and there, and typically get 10% off the shelf price!

Win-Win! (ish...)

I do this all the time.

[drunkennewfiemidget]

A lot of those, "WOW LOOK AT OUR PRICE" is usually still higher than I can get it somewhere else.

Competition is good, right?

That said, I'll still shop at a mom & pop store with better service for a few bucks more than a big chain since -- especially on big ticket items, since I know that if I have an issue with it, they'll still be there to talk to me, whereas the 16 year old who sold me that TV at best buy has moved to the produce section.

Re:Relative Savings

[TaoPhoenix]

I'll chip in the the "rationality of the decision". Someone deciding whether to change their habits on $50 vs $100 is indicating they are concerned with the overall effect of the purchase on their budget. Someone making a capital investment of $1000 for a computer shouldn't be worrying about where their next necessity purchase is coming from. It's like the famous joke "I'll take 2 Angus Bacon Cheeseburger meals, supersized, but make the drinks diet coke because I'm on a diet".

That cell-phone free store...

[Anonymous Coward]

...might just quickly become a customer-free store too.

That's my prediction.

Re:That cell-phone free store...

[AltairDusk]

I personally would avoid it if I saw that sign.

copyright

[Anonymous Coward]

Part of the huge and tacky logos on the clothes is to prevent other companies from copying their design. Fashion design is not protected under law (copyrightable), so companies make knock off of each other all the time, sometimes with cheaper fabric to justify lower price.

To protect their designs, companies plaster their logo all over the clothes - and this is not with just crappy brands, Chanel, LV, Gucci all do this with their sunglasses and other products - because a company logo is trademark-able and thus protected from being copied.

However, because fashion is so fickle to consumer's demands; and tastes change every season; and because the copyright/ trademark office is slow, fashion houses sees the practice of registering their design to be futile. Like the recording company that signs up tons of little bands and hope one of them becomes a cash cow, the fashion industry hires tons of talented designers out of college, hoping one of them will make *the* design that touches the public's senses. And like the recording industry, the pay is shit for the designers, if any.

Re:copyright

[biryokumaru]

The situation you describe for designers and musicians kinda makes the "art for arts sake" argument look like blatantly exploitative capitalist propaganda.

Re:copyright

[Opportunist]

Tastes don't change every season. Does yours?

You get TOLD that something is going out of fashion so you buy something new and maybe even throw the other one away.

I've had suits for a few years, and honestly, they don't look worse than the new ones. They look different. And they're "out of fashion". But, oddly, I don't think they look badly. No idea why...

Re:copyright

[geminidomino]

I've had suits for a few years, and honestly, they don't look worse than the new ones. They look different. And they're "out of fashion". But, oddly, I don't think they look badly. No idea why...

I understand that "testicles" may play a large role in such fashion-ignorance. Not sure though, but I have the same "problem."

Uh, oh! Capitalism happened!

[Digital Vomit]

Capitalism requires informed consumers in order to work properly.

Black Friday Markups

[OzPeter]

Some stores seem to think that the customers are downright stupid. I have seen this before personally (but not recently): Last Black Friday a friend reported that the sale price on some stuff had gone *up* during the sale.

Re:Black Friday Markups

[n_djinn]

Yup, I was looking at something on Amazon and called a local shop to see if they had it and for what price. Sure enough they had it, I asked "how much?" and I was informed that they do not give out prices over the phone. In turn I told them I was looking at the exact same item on Amazon with free shipping and if they feel that price comparing customers are not something they are interested I can just hit the 1-click on Amazon. He said "whatever, we don't give out prices over the phone, you have to come in to find out how much it is". I am not going to do business with that kind of shop, clearly they are only looking for uninformed customers.

Re:Black Friday Markups

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude, where have you been. This isn't a recent thing. It's been going on since I was a kid, before there was even an Amazon.

I shop at all times of the year, year over year. As my parents say, it's a big sale, because the week before, they jacked the price up. It's 50% off now, making it the same price it was, or maybe plus or minus $10. Hell, this year was the first year I saw online prices at Amazon regularly go north of what they were average a month ago (see camelcamelcamel.com).

I do most of my shopping before Christmas the past 2 years because of this. It's not a hard and fast rule; I missed some products that were not promoted over Thanksgiving weekend and CyberMonday that I wanted but didn't realize had price dropped (you can only remember so much), but the rule nowadays is for price increases, then pretend there's a sale.

It's as if retailers recently have taken a page from those who blow the inventory on bankrupt retailers. Go at or north of the retail price, then start chopping percentages off as the store closing date approaches. They sell more open box, unreturnable, items at those higher prices than the everyday discounted prices which the original retail store sold the item.

Re:Black Friday Markups

[Anonymous Coward]

This is pretty common. If you label something as a "sale," especially on a day where in the past most stuff IS usually cheaper. People will assume its cheaper. Most people probably aren't price watching stuff either. As an example, I checked out Newegg during black friday and noticed a monitor I wanted was on sale. I didn't buy it but noted the price, it was going for $300, a few days after black friday I checked back and the price was now $259 or so and they had a newer version of the monitor that included a TV tuner at about the price of the old monitor during black friday. Luckily I held off till after black friday.

Re:Black Friday Markups

[blair1q]

If you document that and report it to your DA or AG, the store will be dealt with legally.

Re:Black Friday Markups

[Anonymous Coward]

Similarly, this is how Wal-Mart's "rollback" works... I remember buying baby formula every week. It would start at $5.50/can, then slowly rise to $7, at which point they would "roll back" the price to $5.75.

Re:Black Friday Markups

[phorm]

I'm fairly sure Amazon did this on their website. I actually have a few PDF'ed products I have to check, but there were paperback novels selling for "$15 marked down from $25" that sold for the usual $9.99 everywhere else.

I haven't had a chance yet, but I want to see if they're now back down to the normal price. Putting something on "sale" in that manner is illegal where I life, AFAIK.

Instant Shipping

[oic0]

Now consider this, if you are bothering to price check an item it must be a fairly large purchase and it must be something you are interested in and want. At that point, its likely you will pay a fair percentage extra just to have "instant" shipping. Where this will kick them in the pants is on massive ripoff items. Walk in to a bestbuy store here, a geforce 9800gt will run you probably $300.... ATI HD4850? $350. They have some items in there lurking with over 100% markup over online retail. I'm glad less people will be conned! (Video cards ALWAYS here)

So cruel

[jgrabell]

I at least have the decency to step outside the store when I price check :)

I'm surprised

[HikingStick]

I'm surprised that retailers have been so relaxed about smartphones. Perhaps they realize that too many people would be alienated if they barred the devices.

My wife and I have tracked our grocery spend for years in an Excel spreadsheet. We keep track of the prices we pay (or see on the shelves) at each of the stores we frequent thereby knowing if a current sale price at one store is better than the price we last saw at another. It also let us flag recurring sale prices and specials (e.g., a 10# meat sale every six weeks, 12-packs at 4/$10, soups at 10/$10), and shows the cost per unit (by the ounce, pound, and per each) to aid comparisons in stores that don't have that information on the shelf tag.

The problem we've encountered has been that retailers kick us out if we try to use our laptop in the store (though I will acknowledge that I haven't tried in the past 12 months). We end up printing out the spreadsheet and carrying a clipboard with us. The retailers have no problem with that, even though we are doing the same thing. I haven't bothered trying our spreadsheet via a smartphone app, because the screen would be too small to see all the columns we want.

It just seems odd that they bar laptops as a threat, but leave the door open for smartphones. I've seen social network posts from friends who post photos of deals they find in specific stores. Most often it's to let their friends in on the deal, but I've seen some posts to the affect of "I just bought these at [other store] for twice as much!"

Re:I'm surprised

[Builder]

You just can't kick people with smartphones out because they are first and foremost a phone. Try to stop me taking my phone in, and I leave. Most other people will too.

Not Rationality

[geoffrobinson]

It's not rationality as that access to the Internet removes informational disadvantages for the consumer. Which is a good thing and has been happening with the Internet for a long time.

They dread the free market?

[SharpFang]

Seems someone is afraid of the very essence of capitalism?

The customer picks the best offer and the worse ones either catch up or perish. This is the golden rule set by Adam Smith.
Meanwhile, let's try to dazzle the customer with flashy commercials and fake discount signs and see if we can get away with worse product, worse price and better marketing instead... oh, no, they found a way around that? Informed customers? They demand actually competitive wares?Oh woe!

Re:They dread the free market?

[0123456]

Seems someone is afraid of the very essence of capitalism?

Pretty much all big companies dread the free market, because they know that if they relax for a moment their smaller competitos will eat them for lunch.

The customer picks the best offer and the worse ones either catch up or perish. This is the golden rule set by Adam Smith.

That's the way that it would work in a free market. Sadly, in the real world the 'worse ones' get the government to impose regulations which prevent anyone from providing better offers: for example, the story from a few days ago about US courts prohibiting the sale of imported products at a lower price than imports 'authorized' by the manufacturer, or zoning laws which encourage big business over small ones, or simply increasing the cost of regulation to the point where no-one can afford to set up a small business to compete with them.

Re:They dread the free market?

[Anonymous Coward]

Welcome to Socialist Union of American Republics?

Stop Complaining and Innovate

[ShadoeKnight]

Oh, quit whining. The day of retailers relying on tricking customers into buying overpriced wares is over, deal with it.

Re:Stop Complaining and Innovate

[kehren77]

Oh, quit whining. The day of retailers relying on tricking customers into buying overpriced wares is over, deal with it.

Exactly. They are lucky people still go to their stores at all instead of just staying home and price shopping online for the best deals.

Due (smart)phone diligence:

[macraig]

*ring*

"Honey, can you do me a favor? I'm at Best Buy looking at that TV, but I'm not sure about their price... couldja call Wal-Mart and find out what they sell it for or check Amazon and Newegg online, and then call me back? Thanks!"

Idea for a new store...

[Builder]

A big building with one of most products that you can think of and very few staff. Computer terminals all over the place that allow you to buy the item you've just viewed from any one of a list of online vendors through an affiliate type programme.

Demise

[Anonymous Coward]

"demise of retailers who do not have either competitive pricing or a standout store experience."

there are more differentiators, such as convenience. If the location is closer or easier to get to and there is not a large premium.

Good idea

[Anonymous Coward]

This is actually a good idea for people to do. A lot of stores around here will raise their prices before having a big "sale". This means they can take off 2% of the price and list it as being 10% off or whatever. It skirts really close to being against the law (under advertising laws).

For example, at the local shopping centre is a handbag shop that will raise the "normal prices" of items that are on sale so they can advertise them as being 50% off but in reality being the same price. If they get caught for this, they face massive fines from the Australian watchdog.

Re:Good idea

[kimvette]

Not all stores even honor their web site pricing. Take Sprawl*Mart for example: I went to buy one of my lower end air purifiers from them. Their web site had a price that was $40 less than the in-store price. I printed the page and brought it to the Sprawl*Mart and they absolutely would not honor the price. Their excuse: It's technically another company running the web store. Needless to say, I didn't buy from Sprawl*Mart; I ordered online from another company.

Bed, Bath and Beyond though, will honor their web pricing and will even price match competitors, or at least come close. :-)

Best Buy won't, at least the store I tried to get them to price match Amazon on an item wouldn't.

The local "hi fi" shops will meet or beat Best Buy's pricing. I want a new AV receiver and I happen to like Pioneer Elite's line - I've had fairly good luck with them for years. However, I don't want to buy from Best Buy's Magnolia Home Theater. So, I checked with a local Pioneer dealer and they quoted me a price that beat Best Buy's. I won't even bother haggling at Best Buy. Plus, their return policies suck. Remember years back during the christmas season they were really emphasizing their no hassle return policies, and ran ads with animals returning stuff to the store, one of the items was an open dvd? Well I happened to buy a DVD around that time and the labeling did not indicate whether it was widescreen or pan&scan (very unusual for a DVD). So, I buy it, take it home, and found it was P&S so I went right back to best buy to return it. They refused. WTF? So, in their ads they were commiting outright fraud. I ended up just throwing the DVD away. To me, Best Buy is the place to go when you need a cable in a real pinch and can't wait for one to ship, or to buy DVDs and maybe small peripherals, and that's about it.

Re:Good idea

[Doctor Faustus]

Best Buy is the place to go when you need a cable in a real pinch

No, that's Radio Shack, or a Yahoo yellow pages search for small computer stores.

Best Buy used to be great for CDs, but now most of them only have about two rows. The rest of the space has gone to TVs.

Re:Good idea

[kimvette]

Radio Shack = a micro version of (the late) Circuit City and cellphone kiosk, only higher priced than everyone else for bottom of the line items, with few electronic parts and cables. They abandoned their core market that made them successful for three quarters of a century. They used to be THE go-to place for electronics components for repairs and projects, but now they're a high priced purveyor of Wal-Mart quality goods. Gee, why is Radio Shack Corporation performing so poorly?

It's a balance.

[tedhiltonhead]

I have, on a couple occasions, used my smartphone to price-compare when in a retail store. Both times were at local, non-chain businesses. I like to visit a small shop when possible, because usually the owner or manager is present.

On both occasions, I very politely explained "Hi, I like this item and am hoping to buy it here. I was able to use my smartphone to compare prices. Some retailers will price-match Amazon (etc), who has this for $X. I can show you if you like. Would you be willing to match that price please?"

Now, here's the thing. I get that small businesses don't get the same wholesale pricing as Amazon. I'm not really demanding an Amazon price match. If they weren't willing to budge at all (especially if it's more than a 10% difference), it's possible I would walk. But, even if they met me halfway, I would still be happy to do business with them.

I think the idea of always paying the "asking price" is a very American cultural phenomenon. In Turkey, for example, it is literally expected that a customer will haggle for at least a 10% discount. It never hurts to ask, politely!

Re:It's a balance.

[Anonymous Coward]

You aren't doing them any favors. How would you like it if your IT job compared your wages to an Indian tech, and asked you to meet them half-way or they'd fire you and hire them?

Small businesses simply cannot absorb deep discounts, and while they will do so in the hope that you remain as a customer and buy stuff at regular price, using them as a local adjunct of Amazon is going to put them out of business. If you want to pricematch the latest bestseller, at least make sure to buy some other things at their usual price. Otherwise, get used to waiting for your items to be delivered, and wondering why there aren't things like music stores, comic shops, or independent electronics dealers in your town any more.

Re:It's a balance.

[Anonymous Coward]

I find that haggling for anything less expensive than several hundred dollars to be a waste of my time when compared to the psychological discomfort it causes me. Maybe this is indicative of some deep-seated cultural effect of living in the US, but I'm not to keen on trying to overcome it (any such effort would *also* be a waste of my time).

This is probably true of many people, in the US (and perhaps elsewhere).

Re:It's a balance.

[Anonymous Coward]

Is the time to haggle, worth the price difference? For some yes, others no. You can use your hourly income (based on work hours or total hours in the day---8 vs 24) as your measuring stick, but any metric you use to value your time will work.

Re:It's a balance.

[Anonymous Coward]

I think the idea of always paying the "asking price" is a very American cultural phenomenon. In Turkey, for example, it is literally expected that a customer will haggle for at least a 10% discount. It never hurts to ask, politely!

The last part of this is key. I can tell you there was nothing, NOTHING that pissed me off more than a customer coming in and demanding a discount simply for the sake that they thinking about spending money. The people who were nice about it were politely informed that I needed a Manager's authorization to do any discounts at all - if they felt like waiting for the store manager to be free and then wished to haggle with him/her, no one was going to stop them. The people who were rude from the get go? We borderline mocked them, before turning them over to the manager who would openly mock the customer.

Re:It's a balance.

[Anonymous Coward]

Realize that the price that Amazon advertizes may in fact be lower than the cost for that small business. So while you think you're being reasonable in only expecting a 3-5% discount in reality you are asking him to take a 3-5% loss on the sale.

As a country we need to come to grips with 2 fundimental issues, 1) lower prices are not better and 2) buying Made in USA is important. From the Middle Class to the working poor this issue will determine if the US becomes like a 3rd world country with just the rich and the poor. Right now we are accelerating to having just two classes. Talk to anyone who was 18+ during the last depression, it can go to hell in a few months.

Marketing Budgets

[AllWorkAndNoPlay]

I have to figure that the money spent on the fancy displays, signage, commercials, print ads, etc must add up. I'm sure right now the "smartphone power shoppers" isn't a huge demographic. As it rises however, I wonder what we will see in terms of reduced marketing budgets. That money can be used to offer better deals to consumers. If the big retailers start allocating a substantial part of their marketing budget into their margins it could have a snowball effect on other (marketing/advertising) companies...

Re:Marketing Budgets

[Even on Slashdot FOE]

Unfortunately, they will allocate it to their lobbying budget first, to make the practice illegal.

Adapt or die

[Anonymous Coward]

This all comes back to the "Walmart" crisis. Walmart moves into an area, offers lower prices on products, puts Ma and Pa stores out of business.

Boo hoo. Sorry, if you are a store selling the same stuff as Walmart but can't match prices, adapt or die. There is no money these days in selling toilette paper and household goods, so if you need to charge $4 more then Walmart for a bag of poo tickets then you are not going to stay in business, period. Don't whine and cry about it, don't petition to keep Walmart out of your area. Consumers might verbally hate Walmart but will secretly revel in saving $4 for their daily wipes so its a no win situation. Bottom line is, you can't sell toilette paper for $4 more then Walmart.

Instead move into specialty markets. Sell premium toilette paper hand spun from silk. You know Walmart is never going to stock that kind of product so you can charge whatever you want for it. Sure, maybe the number of customers you cater to will diminish, but you will entice a different market segment that will pay extra for a product to touch their pampered asses. In the end you will be making more profit off of less customers because you are catering to a market segment willing to pay extra for something they are not going to find in Walmart. Don't sell what Walmart sells, sell the stuff Walmart doesn't!

Any retailer that finds competitive pricing a crisis to their existence should go bankrupt, period. Competition should inspire retailers to change, identify new market segments, sell specialty products, or find out what consumers want before they know they want it, rather then whoring out the same ol' good everyone else is whoring out. We don't need 15 Big Box chains selling the same crap at slightly different prices. This kind of transparent pricing should encourage a reduction in retail clone stores and instead inspire a new generation of specialty shops. I would rather walk into a store and find interesting products I have not seen before rather then driving around town (or checking my phone) for differences in pricing on the same shit.

Its all cyclic anyways, so consumers should not worry about something like Walmart or other Big Box stores closing all competitive retailers. If Walmart becomes a monopoly and jacks up prices then that is an opportunity for a new chain of innovative "discount" retail chains to become established that will eventually put Walmart into the hot seat. Adapt or die, retail is a tough market but you can't sit back and make money if you are not willing to change.

Re:Adapt or die

[Anonymous Coward]

Now substitute "Out Sourcing" for "Big Box Store" and substitite your "Occupation" for "Ma and Pa Stores". Stir well and evaluate the results.

Online does not offer everything

[dazedNconfuzed]

You can't find everything online, or discern it from all the other unwanted crap that shows up in a search for a popular high-turnover product category.

Try finding a particular Sony camcorder battery online. All too often you'll get flooded with wrong models, crappy knockoffs, and otherwise have difficulty finding what you want. Easier to walk into a big-box store and pay a bit more - you can confirm its not a POS cheat, and can return it pronto if it is.

A smart retailer will recognize what customers want, want now, and will have trouble locating online. Yes, the nature of brick-and-mortar must change ... for the better.

Re:capitalism requires steadily growing

[Anonymous Coward]

Capitalism does not require every business to steadily grow. Many businesses offer high-end, rare products, & make better margins than, say, Walmart.

The Rolls Royce Automobile company sells far fewer cars than Ford. It actually saves cost by only building a car someone has specially ordered, leaving no inventory at dealers.

Image elicited by headline:

[John Hasler]

A store manager being menaced by a large, angry woman wielding a black bakelite Western Electric handset (to me the canonical "phone" is not a handheld two-way radio the size of a nickle Hersey bar).

Re:Image elicited by headline:

[unitron]

The real weight was in the base of those things--the part with the dial.

I suspect there were probably real life cases of people being bludgeoned to death with those things.

Movies

[Anonymous Coward]

This reminds me of the Movies theatre industry complaining about people who watch the first viewing of a crappy film and texting their friends warning them not to watch it.

The movie exec's complained that, in the past, even if they released a craptacular movie... it would sell well for the first weekend AT LEAST.

Oh Noes, perish the thought, they might be forced to sell better products?!?!?

Shops - Showrooms

[Confuse Ed]

Are we part way through a transition from shops being where you both browse / research products and purchase them, to separating these two phases of the shopping process.

The way I see it there is still a need for bricks & morter 'showrooms' where you can go and compare products side-by-side or even try them out in real life : e.g when buying a netbook / laptop, I always go to the local PC world or similar to try out the different keyboards and see how the displays look.

However to make the purchase, it is clearly more efficient and therefore cheaper to sell through either giant mail-order only warehouses (e.g. order from amazon, or order direct from the manufacturer) or something like Argos for when you want to be able to collect it yourself same-day.

The problem is how the showrooms get payed for? will we move instead to individual manfactures paying for showpiece storefronts (maybe Apple stores already are this? do they expect to make a profit on on-store sales, or are they just giant adverts driving their sales through other channels?)

The current middle-ground that retailers seem to be using is the online 'reserve and collect' - but they still tend to be keeping the much of their stock on the shelves rather than having it all more efficiently stacked away in a warehouse out the back.

Re:Shops - Showrooms

[Phoobarnvaz]

However to make the purchase, it is clearly more efficient and therefore cheaper to sell through either giant mail-order only warehouses (e.g. order from amazon, or order direct from the manufacturer) or something like Argos for when you want to be able to collect it yourself same-day.

Sometimes you also need to remember that there are many rural places where you can't find the item you maybe looking for. The only way to get the item without spending hours driving to a large city which MIGHT have the item is to order from an online merchant.

It was the same thing 150-100 years ago...so you have the precursor of Amazon...Sears & Roebuck/JC Penny's/Montgomery Ward's catalogs.

Re:Shops - Showrooms

[Antisyzygy]

I don't know. Apple seems to be selling products with hardware you can get for cheaper at premium prices and getting away with it. People like Apple because their operating system is nice, the products look good, and they can go to an Apple store and get decent help. Places like Best Buy do not pay their employees enough to care about their jobs, and they mark up certain products and services ridiculously high but offer no added value for the mark-up. If people would be more like Apple the show-room stores would still make money.

Re:Shops - Showrooms

[dorito234]

This is exactly the reason that social media is so relevant today (online ratings and reviews, blogs, etc) - I don't necessarily feel the need to try out a keyboard for myself.. the first thing I will do is search for reviews that tell me which netbooks have good keyboards, and which ones are too cramped, then buy the one that has good reviews. Spending 10 minutes reading reviews is a much more effective use of my time than driving across town, parking, finding the right model in the store, etc. I see a day where the need for those showrooms largely goes away.

My $0.02

It can also go the other way

[tixxit]

I'm in the market for a new TV, but haven't done any research. I see a TV in BestBuy that is on sale, compare the price to other stores, see it actually is a good price, then buy it. If I didn't have my smart phone, I would've gone home and did some research first, rather than buy it right there. That means I'm out of the store, and that most likely means a lost sale for them.

Similarly, I was at a (plant) nursery this last spring. I had the impulse to buy some plants for my house, but since I have a cat, I wanted to make sure I didn't buy a plant that was poisonous to cats. I whipped out my phone, went on the web, and researched the plants I liked, one-by-one, to find the ones that were cat safe. In the end I bought $100 worth of plants. If I didn't have my smart phone, then I wouldn't have bought anything.

Re:It can also go the other way

[Anonymous Coward]

You are one of the rare consumers that can put off a purchase. It gets harder after you've touched an object (http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/endowl.htm).

A friend once told me I'm every retailer's worst nightmare. I have a very clear understanding of wants and needs and am perfectly happy putting off the wants indefinitely. I don't have a smart phone. I start shopping at home, on the computer. Then I take a look at the store next time I'm in the area. Then I look online again. It could be months before I buy something. The only things I buy immediately are video games I know I want, as you're not likely to find different prices unless you wait for the used game market.

Re:It can also go the other way

[Anonymous Coward]

Or the staff at the (plant) nursery may have been able to tell you which plants were "Cat Safe"....and perhaps give you tips on their (the plants not the cats) care. Yes, at most "big box" stores, the staff is clueless, but that assumption can not be directed at all retailers.

Re:It can also go the other way

[Altheron]

In the end I bought $100 worth of plants. If I didn't have my smart phone, then I wouldn't have bought anything.

No, no no no no. You, sir, are doing it "wrong". You walk into the store, look around a bit.. "I like this and this and this, but I have a cat", you say to the well informed sales person. They helpfully tell you that the second one will kill your cat with a single glance. You purchase a number of items, with the assistance of the helpfully trained staff.

It is not our responsibility to do the salesman's job for them. Likewise, I refuse to use those damned "self check out" things.

Re:It can also go the other way

[tixxit]

Unfortunately, the nursery I was at was staffed by summer students. At best I got an older woman who told me, she has these 2 and her cat is fine (even though one was actually poisonous to cats). Luckily, the ASPCA provides a great web site where I found this info out in a quick second or 2: http://www.aspca.org/pet-care/poison-control/plants/

Re:capitalism requires steadily growing

[Lilith's Heart-shape]

Doesn't Rolls Royce still build their cars by hand?

What is your time worth

[MpVpRb]

I'm willing to bet that while one product is cheaper at one store, another may be more expensive.....If I was a sales manager, I would be offering some incentive to my customers to do all their shopping at my store at once.

Remember, your time is not free, gas or other transportation is not free, traffic sucks at xmastime.

It seems silly to visit multiple stores to save a few dollars.

Now...a few HUNDRED dollars...that's a different question.

no kidding...

[n_djinn]

Been to a Bed Bath and Beyond? Their prices on so much are out of line. I only go there for K-Cups and those prices are fine, but just about everything else is 30% higher (according to my bar code app that shows local and online prices of the exact same item) and they refuse to match prices from my phone even after I show them how it works.

It raises the question....

[forkfail]

... of how free market capitalism in it's true form can survive technology. Specifically, how can those companies that don't already have a massively controlling market share survive?

We've seen this happen to the airlines; no airline can raise its prices no matter what its costs (e.g., fuel costs) because as soon as they do, they won't be at the top of the lists on Expedia and so forth.

Will be interesting to see the long term impact of this.

Re:It raises the question....

[Lilith's Heart-shape]

of how free market capitalism in it's true form can survive technology.

The existence of corporations (whose owners and officers are shielded from liability by law) is contradictory to free market capitalism. And don't even get me started on taxes, subsidies, etc. :)

Why I like Borders

[bziman]

I don't often buy books at Borders. I browse at Borders. I even read at Borders sometimes. But I only buy books when I "need it now". However. I love Borders. It's my favorite retailer. And I spend a lot of money there on coffee. Which has far, far bigger margins than books. I would guess that they make better than $3 profit on each cup of coffee that I buy. I'd have to buy ten books for them to make that profit from book purchases. Books are simply the carrot that brings me in to buy coffee. (That, and since Starbucks has discontinued decaf fraps, Borders is one of the only places I can actually GET the cup of coffee that I want.) And I probably buy more cups of coffee than I do books. I firmly believe the arrangement works for everyone, and I hope it continues.

Re:Why I like Borders

[FunkSoulBrother]

I ran the cafe inside a Borders. We had a decent markup, but nowhere near $3 a cup. If you really want to do them a favor, buy a bottle of water.

Just look around...

[okmijnuhb]

We are a society based on swindling, cheating, misleading, ripping off, and taking advantage of one another.
This is one more thing that undermines that, of course people will be upset.

I don't just compare prices.

[Lilith's Heart-shape]

I don't just use my smartphone for price comparisons. If I find a store unpleasant in any way, anybody paying attention to my Facebook status is going to hear about it. Here are some sample posts:

• Parents shopping at Kohl's at $LOCATION can't get their children to shut up. Bring earplugs or headphones.
• Macy's at $LOCATION only has women's pajamas in sizes XS, S, and XXXL.
• Should have brought my sledgehammer to Best Buy at $LOCATION; the salescritters there have no concept of personal space.

Is this scary?

[morgauxo]

This sounds great for the consumer for now but what happens once Walmart and maybe KMart are all that remain?

evolution in action!

[esobofh]

Indeed, this is exactly how i shop. In Canada, the largest book chain is Chapters/Indigo - and they have a distinct error in strategy; they have made it policy to only sell books at the publishers recommended or listed price on the book. Now, everyone else in the book business sells at a discount, or with sales, etc., but not them - and another critical error, is that they won't match prices. So while i'm in their store, enjoying their starbucks coffee and free wifi while parusing their shelves, i'm logged into amazon.com (in the US) and "adding to cart" all the books i like. - before i've left chapters, i've ordered all the books i like from amazon at a huge discount (sometimes 50%) and have already received their order confirmation. It's great! although, not so good for chapters.

evolve or die!

Re:evolution in action!

[quacking duck]

Sometimes it's just being in Canada that keeps prices artificially high.

Case in point: Calvin and Hobbes the Complete Collection.

Amazon.com price: $90.97
Amazon.ca price: $125.40

This despite the dollar being at or close to parity, and it's not like Amazon Canada's stock of this title was purchased 5 years ago (when the dollar was weaker) and sitting in a warehouse the entire time.

Yay

[koan]

Technology kills yet another greedy practice by corporations, first the business and distribution model of movie and music industry (oh OK and porn too) now this!!!!

Re:Relative Savings

[rjstanford]

I'll chip in the the "rationality of the decision". Someone deciding whether to change their habits on $50 vs $100 is indicating they are concerned with the overall effect of the purchase on their budget. Someone making a capital investment of $1000 for a computer shouldn't be worrying about where their next necessity purchase is coming from. It's like the famous joke "I'll take 2 Angus Bacon Cheeseburger meals, supersized, but make the drinks diet coke because I'm on a diet".

Although anyone buying 2 Angus Bacon Cheeseburger means is probably not the best candidate for a test-case on rational thinking, soda-selection notwithstanding!

This shouldn't be a problem

[tompaulco]

Unless you are looking at big ticket items, this shouldn't matter. The amount you would save on something under maybe $100 would be more than eaten up by the price of gas, the wear and tear on the vehicle and the value of your time.
And if it was a big ticket item, why would you go to the store first rather than do your research online?

Concentration

[MarkvW]

Fierce competition with razor-thin margins will weed out the weak. Then, the strong get weeded out. You're left with a few really efficient businesses and a whole bunch of unemployed people--unemployed (former) consumers. Too much concentration means that fewer people share in the fruits of everyone's labor. That, in turn, hurts the "efficient" businesses and everyone else.

Everybody profits when everybody works well. Too much competition is destructive for everyone. Competition is a necessary component of a healthy economy, but it must be regulated.

Prices aren't the only thing

[Anonymous Coward]

The retailers that can't compete in the race to the bottom should make good note that prices aren't the only thing that can lure shoppers.

There's are these things called "quality of service" and "shopping experience" that they could use to their advantage, even if they can't drop prices lower than the big box stores or their online counterparts. These things work magic in regards to the gotta-have-it impulse buy. All it takes is having a nice and clean store, people working at the store which are attentive to customers (not circling like vultures, but willing to come by and help when asked), and enough people working at the store such you're not waiting in line all day because there's only one register open.

Of course this is what often causes brick-n-mortar stores to fail in relation to their internet counterparts. I was shopping for some camera kit. It turns out it wasn't something cheap (just over $1000), so I thought it would be nice to have a look in person and get some advice etc. So I went to the camera store. They had two people working in the store, and one wasn't too terribly busy. (They were doing something with the machines in the back, but it's like a copier - after pushing the button you really shouldn't have to stand over it for it to finish.) I waited 15 minutes at the counter wanting to look over some cameras. After 15 minutes, I walked out. Screw it. If I'm just going to be ignored like that, I may as well do my shopping online. Ended up buying the same kit at TigerDirect instead of Wolf Camera for little difference in price because the service online was that much better. Checked reviews, ordered, and got my camera the next day.

Then again, I've been to other retail stores that I prefer over shopping online because I get to try products out or look them over and because the store has employees that are actually helpful. The local hobby store is kind of nice that way.

Of course when stores compete in this regard, it's often harder for them. It requires that they have more people working for them and it takes only one bad employee to hurt the business. Competing on margin requires much less overhead and real work in regards to doing actual store management.

Simple solution

[Un pobre guey]

A Faraday Cage around the store. Some kind of wire mesh embedded in the walls and ceiling to interfere with cell phones while in the store.

Or no one will be able to afford Walmart...

[Paul Fernhout]

Marshall Brain on widespread unemployment from robots etc. over the next two decades:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0Z8TR4ToNs

Solutions: http://knol.google.com/k/paul-d-fernhout/beyond-a-jobless-recovery

Target

[AlpineR]

Have you shopped at Target?

I rarely enter Wal-Mart so I can't make many direct comparisons. But to me Target has a reputation for a little nicer, more stylish stuff and great prices. Recently I bought a 3-pack of Aveeno Colloidal Oatmeal shaving cream; good for sensitive skin and priced at what a single can would cost at my local independent pharmacy. They also have nice kitchenware like Calaphon anodized aluminum pans and some fancier chocolates than you'd find at many grocery stores. Before I discovered IKEA I bought most of my home furnishings there and occasionally I find stylish clothing that elicits many compliments (though I still do most of my clothes shopping at their sister chain, Macy's).

Re:Target

[bluefoxlucid]

I have never shopped at target and it is a dying chain around here now because they told the salvation army to never put a bell ringer outside their store ever and got a huge amount of negative publicity. Basically people said they hated poor people or something because they hated Salvation Army santas; and then it got out that Target is an "American" company owned by a French holding company... during the Iraqi war, when hating France was all the rage. Hence why a lot of people around here call the place "Tar-zhey" ...

Aside, anodized aluminum is some of the nicer new-tech out there (that teflon crap is horrible, way too much sticking and too fragile and no heat tolerance). I have a well-seasoned cast iron frying pan that's slicker than teflon though (somehow... teflon might stick, but its actual FRICTION is pretty low), and just recently discovered that cooking eggs in bacon or sausage grease produces perfect results (frying eggs in butter, various vegetable oils, etc didn't work too great for me). I guess lard was always superior.

Forecasts and reality

[AlpineR]

The stock dives because the expected profit has already been factored into the stock price. Stockholders raised their selling price months ago based on their forecast of $175 million in profit. The actual profit of only $150 million forces them to sell for a bit less. But, theoretically, the new price should be the same as if the forecast had ben $150 million all along - higher than the price during the year with $100 million but lower than it would be with $175 million in actual profits.

Haggling

[AlpineR]

I am an American and I hate haggling. It takes time and effort, multiplied by the number of stores offering the item. They should all just name their best price up front. If one store names a price $10 higher than the others but will drop it by $15 if I ask nicely, I'll just buy it from another store with a lower list price. I don't want to drive around visiting all the different stores to haggle for their actual prices.

Corvettes are for speed!

[GameboyRMH]

What? Corvettes aren't a bad deal if you want a fast car (and not just in a straight line, they're good in corners too) - if you want a luxurious car or one with quality workmanship, well you're buying the wrong car.

With Harleys, yeah, you're just paying for the name.

Simple fix for the retailer

[ericbg05]

1. Install your own wireless hub and 3G station in your store.
2. Actively inject fake higher prices into competing web pages' HTML as it flies through your local router. Customer thinks the price in your store is the best one.
3. Profit!

I've never seen a 90/yo Honda or Kawasaki.

[Anonymous Coward]

You like to insult American products so-much, why not compare on the price-points like fabric, metal compounds, worker wages compared to sales, owner servicable or life expectancy.

You might want to take back what you said, because your foreign-made bicycle with an engine is about to be deported; why do you want something that travels over 200MPH without owner-servicable parts and there is no road but the Autobahn of AsskeNAZI Germany?

Remember that wonderful cowhide used on Harley-Davidson can be replaced and upholstered to match by any seamstress, while something of Pleather or Vinyl on your foreigner motorcycle will not look quite right because it's a jet engine with an image. Do you like riding with your balls right ontop of a gas tank that could explode any minute? How about the balance of the bike in slow and tight quarters.

I bet the horn on your foreigner motorcycle gives a nice masculine Heee-Heeeee like a Toyota as you swerve to avoid cars THAT CAN"T HEAR YOU WHEN THEY LANE-CHANGE. That noisy Harley-Davidson is looking like better value by the second because now everyone thinks you are as loud as Jack Burton, as you crank up the music bullshitting on your CB speeding down the 2-lane rainy road and lane-changing against traffic while going uphill; give a blow for HD and it's a HUH-HUUUUUHHHHG and a rumble while a foreigner motorcycle sounds like a purring kitten with the voice of Pee Wee Herman. Good one, lame'fag'tard.

You realy won the performance award and cool factor at the Insurance Company and Medical Building because you were thrown from the bike while a Harley-Davidson just kind of launched you off the windshield like a X Olympics bicyclist on a half-pipe. But at-least the car you hit is now foreign-made accordion in the sight of a American rock on a dolly.

Did one cut you off the other day? Sound tense...

[Anonymous Coward]

Or were you just insulted that his horn was louder than your Heee-Heeeeeeee?

I can see this becominga MEME over on /new/ in 4Chan.

I was on my way to work at my Chinese electronics drop-shipping engineering company, today,
and this loud American farmer had his antique Rebar motor-bicycle on the road. He cut me
off going 5MPH faster than me, so I honked hard and yelled at him that he should consider
recycling so that bicycles can be made for 10 chinese children. I'm going to write a review
on the more recent models of that American trash. I'll showed him. Excuse me, the guard at
my liberty-cubicle is calling my cell-phone. "Yes I ate lunch in 4 minutes and will be
there in 2 minutes to work my 2nd 8-hour shift stress-testing these genital massagers before
fabricated in Bangcock in-time for the Expo in Los Angeles."

Paying retailers for help rather than sales

[Mandrel]

The problem is how the showrooms get payed for? will we move instead to individual manfactures paying for showpiece storefronts (maybe Apple stores already are this? do they expect to make a profit on on-store sales, or are they just giant adverts driving their sales through other channels?)

An insightful observation.

My company offers one solution — allow full-service retailers to get paid for the help they give to people, even when they don't make the sale.

How this works: When someone claims a cashback payment after a purchase, they're given an easy way to nominate the sources of purchasing help they received. The nominated sources can receive both a portion of the rebate and a bonus payment from the maker of the product that's been bought.

This should make all sorts of free help services feasible, including "stores" which focus on demonstrations and trial loaners, services you can ring to get advice from an expert, as well as better online comparison tools.

Staying behind the entertainment curve

[Mandrel]

As soon as you back a mere 90 days off the leading edge, your costs drop by 50%.

The watercooler effect keeps people on the bleeding edge of entertainment. Who wants to be out of the loop with one's friends and colleagues, not to mention spoiled.

It's easier to be cheap if you have no friends and work from home.

Re:Staying behind the entertainment curve

[Maxo-Texas]

I have friends with decent incomes who are now 2 years behind. They can't keep up.

We finally said, "we are going to talk about this stuff sometimes".

So yea.

OTH, other than Big Bang theory, I'm not absolutely current on anything any more. It was different in the 60's and 70's. Everyone had seen the exact same thing the night before (one of 4 stations doncha know) and talked about it. It was sorta cool.

Re:Staying behind the entertainment curve

[Mandrel]

You're right about the current entertainment smorgasbord.

But Sturgeon's Second Law means that with appropriate use of both professional and word-of-mouth filtering, we should be able to fill up with good stuff.

Re:Staying behind the entertainment curve

[Maxo-Texas]

I'm at a point where even the 90% rule isn't sufficient for me to keep up and watch everything.
I miss good books, songs, shows, and movies all the time now.

I'm headed towards 99% of everything isn't "awesome".

Of course, my quirky taste means things that are awesome for me are only good for others.

Like...

TiMER, Pushing Daisies, Recent Animated DC movies (seriously good shit, excellent acting by name stars, great animation, wonderful writing, good plots), Yes, Minister, Jeckyl, etc.

Over the last year, I have a new technique for watching merely good shows. I fast forward through 25% of them.

some stores do this for you

[buddyglass]

I recently bought several home appliances (washer, dryer, gas oven) at a local appliance store (Conn's). After I'd picked out what I wanted, the store guy went to a computer and looked up web prices on the same items at Best Buy, Lowe's, Sears and Home Depot. Then he knocked about $200 to bring it in line with what one of the other places was offering.

Faraday Cage

[Shifty0x88]

This is why a lot of stores provide free wi-fi. Strangely, competitors sites are slow to load. Hmm.

Do you think that stores will create a giant Faraday Cage around themselves to limit access to outside influences? I mean I have seen it in schools, whether by design or just the over-use of concrete with rebar.. it makes me wonder... what if?

Google Shopper

[red_one]

http://www.google.com/mobile/shopper/

Does exactly this. Lets you scan the product or barcode, and will find you prices online.