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Obama FCC Caves On Net Neutrality

An anonymous reader writes "...the rule, which will be voted on during tomorrow's FCC meeting, falls drastically short of earlier pledges by President Obama and the FCC Chairman to protect the free and open Internet. The rule is so riddled with loopholes that it's become clear that this FCC chairman crafted it with the sole purpose of winning the endorsement of AT&T and cable lobbyists, and not defending the interests of the tens of millions of Internet users."

853 comments

  1. What a suprise by AmonTheMetalhead · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Money rules this world...

    1. Re:What a suprise by ikirudennis · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Is this meant as a criticism of Obama or the fact that Obama had to cave in to people who are against net neutrality?

    2. Re:What a suprise by skids · · Score: 3, Insightful

      There are likely deplorable provisions in the FCC's proposal.

      However, at the same time, we'll never know which proposals are particularly egregious because any competently put together "net neutrality" policy will necessarily be very complex, and will necessarily require input from the IT/provider business community.

      So even if it were a good proposal, it could still be called "full of loopholes" and "lobbyist driven" by anyone disingenuous enough to cherry pick from it and misrepresent it. Given we rely on journalism to boil these things down, and the total lack of ethics and objectivity in journalism these days, we are guaranteed to hear this same thing about each and every proposal for "net neutrality" that gets anywhere near the finish line.

    3. Re:What a suprise by oldspewey · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yes

      --
      If libertarians are so opposed to effective government, why don't they all move to Somalia?
    4. Re:What a suprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It seems like a criticism of a flawed system

    5. Re:What a suprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is meant as criticism of Obama, the corporate mouthpiece, the feckless leader, the one who's just as bad as all the rest.

    6. Re:What a suprise by sageres · · Score: 2
      There are many FCC rules with "deplorable" provision. The worst one is the following

      This device complies with part 15 of the FCC rules. Operation is subject to the following two conditions: (1) this device may not cause harmful interference, and (2) this device must accept any interference received, including interference that may cause undesired operation.

      :-)

    7. Re:What a suprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So are there any thorough studies? I'm too lazy to read TFA and I want to get angry.

      Aw shucks, I can always get angry now and prove my reasoning tomorrow.

    8. Re:What a suprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He also isn't any worse than the rest either. It works both ways you know. How interested in net neutrality do you think Old Man River McCain and Dispshit Palin would have been? (Like Palin even has any idea what "net neutrality" means. She couldn't even spell it. And she can't see it from her house.)

    9. Re:What a suprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      They're all the same, doesn't matter how good a campaign they put on or what side of what isle they claim to hail from, they're all out for big business and that's it. I voted for Obama and while I still believe he's a damn site better than we'd have gotten from McCain, he's managed to stop just short of every campaign promise that mattered to me. Oh well, it's nothing new.

      On the bright side, I have faith that, like they have always managed in the past, people will find ways to get around what ever restrictions are placed on the internet. I've been watching it happen since I was in college in the late 90's and it continues to happen today. It will keep happening.

    10. Re:What a suprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

      Kosh, is that you? I thought you died!

    11. Re:What a suprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

    12. Re:What a suprise by Tokolosh · · Score: 1

      ...any competently put together "net neutrality" policy will necessarily be very complex...

      Civilizations collapse when they become too complex to sustain - http://amzn.com/052138673X

      --
      Prove anything by multiplying Huge Number times Tiny Number
    13. Re:What a suprise by Dishevel · · Score: 1, Insightful

      any competently put together "net neutrality" policy will necessarily be very complex

      So. You are saying that "No internet provider shall at any time or for any reason discriminate against any particular types of traffic going to their subscribers." Needs some industry insider complexity thrown in for some mystical reason?

      --
      Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
    14. Re:What a suprise by Richard_at_work · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Your rule is uncompromising - what happens when Anonymous decide to DDoS some poor 14 year old who criticised them on his self-hosted blog?

      The ISP may be able to handle 10GB/sec, but his ADSL line won't - plus of course the issues that 10GB/sec of traffic the ISP can do nothing about hitting their network... whats that going to do for other subscribers?

      Come up with a new rule please.

    15. Re:What a suprise by Miseph · · Score: 1

      Have you heard the Tea Partiers and Conservatives on this issue? They're braying about "government takeover" and calling net neutrality an assault on basic liberties.

      I think a strong case can be made that he's done better than the rest, even if "better" just means he didn't completely bury net neutrality from the word go.

      --
      Try not to take me more seriously than I take myself.
    16. Re:What a suprise by spun · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It would be illegal under your scheme to give real time or streaming applications priority. Try again. How about, "No Internet provider shall discriminate based on end-points." Discriminate by type of traffic, sure. Discriminate based on where it came from or where it is going, no.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    17. Re:What a suprise by sarhjinian · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Remember the kerfuffle when Ralph Nader wondered if Obama would become a metaphorical "Uncle Tom" to corporate interests? This is what he meant.

      --
      --srj/mmv
    18. Re:What a suprise by scubamage · · Score: 5, Insightful

      More importantly, what if a carrier network is carrying VoIP traffic? Your rule would make it illegal to give 911 calls priority over all other traffic, and would undermine the ideas of QoS. I agree with your rule in spirit, but it needs some amendments to be practical.

    19. Re:What a suprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The crazy right wingers just up and do it. Obama does it slowly, lovingly, so good liberals won't suspect him. But we'll be at exactly the same point with regard to net neutrality in three years' time. There really isn't a dime's worth of difference between Democrats and Republicans. Both parties start the same wars, erode the same freedoms, end up at the same place one way or another.

    20. Re:What a suprise by mark72005 · · Score: 3, Funny

      Apparently, you didn't hear about "hope" and "change"

    21. Re:What a suprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except that the FCC could have just not done anything, and it would have been better than what they did.

    22. Re:What a suprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      p>I think a weak case can be made that he's done better than the rest, even if "better" just means he didn't completely bury net neutrality from the word go.

      Fixed that for you.

    23. Re:What a suprise by Miseph · · Score: 1

      So they shouldn't use shaping to , for example, favor high priority VOIP traffic (potentially including emergency service communications) over low priority torrent traffic during periods of peak usage? That would run afoul of your rule.

      Should hotspots and school or municipal wifi networks be allowed to route users through a login or TOS page before admitting them onto the internet proper? That could be viewed as a violation of your rule as well.

      Should an ISP be able to restrict SMTP traffic from a known spam zombie until the issue can be properly addressed? That would violate your rule as well.

      I'm not saying that the legislation should be Xbox huge, but your one line version is simply not sophisticated enough to meet the needs of net neutrality without breaking the needs of actual users and providers.

      --
      Try not to take me more seriously than I take myself.
    24. Re:What a suprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We could take a lot of the weight out of this issue by doing a voluntarily queue P2P scheme. That would require significant attention to geography and a lot of participants to even make a blip, though.

      I have often wished I could trade the immediacy of my connection for volume - like if my ISP offered unlimited volume to users that participated in a moderated scheduled-traffic scheme. Pretty useless for non-technical users, but I would only ever load up a handful of sites on demand. Everything else could be negotiated.

    25. Re:What a suprise by LaissezFaire · · Score: 1

      Well intentioned laws are not allowed to have bad consequences. If an Internet 911 call was dropped because the network provider was not allowed to give it priority, the network provider would be sued.

    26. Re:What a suprise by lorenlal · · Score: 1

      I certainly hope so. It'll be a bit of a trick to work around traffic shaping if (/when) it gets stood up, but I have faith in the masses...

      Let's just see what sort of paywalls we see devised now though.

    27. Re:What a suprise by dragonhunter21 · · Score: 3, Funny

      The government is placing restrictions on the internet to try to encourage free expression.

      Conservatives and Tea Partiers only read the first part. Liberals only read the second. Nerds read the whole thing, then /., and realize how screwed we are.

      --
      Sent from my CR-48
    28. Re:What a suprise by Nikker · · Score: 1

      As someone on a tech blog you should know that QOS is something that should be done on the end users system rather than the ISP. Besides do you really think any ISP wants to be in the position of misrouted emergency calls?

      --
      A loop, by its nature, continues. If that didn't make sense, start reading this sentence again.
    29. Re:What a suprise by s73v3r · · Score: 1

      Are 911 calls given priority on cellular and regular copper phone lines?

    30. Re:What a suprise by BrokenHalo · · Score: 2

      It seems like a criticism of a flawed system

      Ten out of ten. The system has (surprise!) yet again proved that it is there to protect the biggest financial interests against incursions from individuals or smaller players.

      The face that Obama has caved shouldn't be seen as a surprise. The fact that he even paid lip service to net neutrality is more than his opponents ever did, but let's not forget that before he went into politics he was a successful and wealthy lawyer.

      Lawyers are highly trained in distorting the truth, or presenting you with a version of the truth that they want you to hear. That's why so many politicians (professional liars) start their careers as lawyers. All the hype over Obama's election sort of encouraged us to forget his background, so everyone was led to expect too much of him.

    31. Re:What a suprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not just Republicans who don't give a s*it about the citizens of the US. Congratulations, Democrats, you've proven yourselves worthy of almost as much scorn.

      Perhaps we should re-write the constitution to provide for a slightly different form of government? One where we elect our "elected officials" by a vote of multinational corporations only. The "Senate of Multinationals" and the "House of Multinationals." No money would need to be spent by corporations on buying elected officials, which could increase profits for corporations. The military could be completely re-purposed to fight for the intellectual property rights of the movie and recording industries, and some selected others.

    32. Re:What a suprise by scubamage · · Score: 1

      Yes they are. Google "Policy Servers" and look around for a company called Camiant who makes their business selling servers to carriers that manage things like that.

    33. Re:What a suprise by HeckRuler · · Score: 2

      So discriminating against competitors' protocols is ok? Unless, you know, a little money changes hands and you pay to play.
      Naw dude, naw.

    34. Re:What a suprise by Bill_the_Engineer · · Score: 1

      Which is why the "National Telecommunications and Information Administration (NTIA)" is part of the Department of Commerce.

      --
      These comments are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of my employer or colleagues...
    35. Re:What a suprise by AvitarX · · Score: 1

      I (as a purchaser) would not mind the privilege to save money by only having port 80 go fast, or to pay extra for others.

      Or pay for super low pings on VoIP.

      --
      Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
    36. Re:What a suprise by scubamage · · Score: 4, Informative

      As someone who works for a telephony carrier, I can tell you for a fact that you we DO to handle QoS as well as the user. Its a regulatory requirement in the USA. First, most of the time any QoS markings placed on either a traditional or voip call get wiped out at the first hop, because users otherwise would start marking themselves as higher priority than other users. It's a basic security concern mentioned in most network books when they describe QoS. Then after you strip off that stuff, you usually start using DSCP markers and MPLS, and above that you've got routing decisions to go with different carriers to reach the destination based on the cost to use their lines. All of these decisions get modified when its an emergency call. And yes, those calls do get misrouted sometimes; and there's hell to pay for it. Just like any other regulatory call.

    37. Re:What a suprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To quote Herbert Huncke: "You cannot have money as the only factor in life and expect anything but shit as a result."

    38. Re:What a suprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Perhaps at the point that VoIP is being used to manage emergency calls, you should upgrade the network to handle the capacity?

    39. Re:What a suprise by rivetgeek · · Score: 4, Funny

      Yes we could've

    40. Re:What a suprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Freedom is for sale...

      You want to fly without getting the TSA grope? Buy a private jet and fly out of smaller commuter airports.

      You want access to the entire Internet at the same speed? Bring your check book.

    41. Re:What a suprise by clarkkent09 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      To balance the crazy left-wing nutcase view of huffington post here is the opinion of one of the FCC commissioners who is against the proposal: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703395204576023452250748540.html
       
      "To date, the FCC hasn't ruled out increasing its power further by using the phone monopoly laws, directly or indirectly regulating rates someday, or expanding its reach deeper into mobile broadband services. The most expansive regulatory regimes frequently started out modest and innocuous before incrementally growing into heavy-handed behemoths."
       
      If the passed regulation plan does not meet any of the goals of the net neutrality supporters (as huff po article suggests) then why pass it? I am inclined to believe that net neutrality is less of the goal of the FCC here that to establish a principle that the Internet is subject to FCC regulation even though the Congress has never given it any such powers.

      --
      Negative moral value of force outweighs the positive value of good intentions.
    42. Re:What a suprise by pilgrim23 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Indeed it does, and since the FCC insists on crafting Law (a job I THINK was left to Congress in our Constitution) I think it is time Congress exercise her other power; that of the purse string: De-fund the FCC!

      --
      - Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carborata descendum pantorum.
    43. Re:What a suprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Obama, another useless nigger

    44. Re:What a suprise by beakerMeep · · Score: 1

      No, it really just needs to be something in the middle. ISPs should not be able to discriminate based on endpoint or traffic type or protocol with the exception of E-911 and a few other specific and sensible exceptions. Spam and DDoS filtering, QoS for traffic types like VOIP that doesnt discriminate based on end point, or company. It's not really that hard. While a simple "everything should be equal based on X" rule wont work, it's equally absurd to think the law must be so complex as to impossible to craft. This fatalism from some ./ posters (not you) about the technical and legal wording being impossible is nonsense and not helpful. There is easily a middle ground here, and yes it requires some technical specifics, but it's NOT impossible

      --
      meep
    45. Re:What a suprise by Amouth · · Score: 1

      Yes - to the point that a cell tower should and will drop other calls to open of a channel for the 911 call. same as pots switches dropping connections to route 911 (and some times 0/Operator)

      for cell phones if i remember correctly it isn't the # dialed that causes the escalated response but rather the phone reporting to the tower that it is an emergency call - i remember some old Nokia phones could be hacked to change the number dialed for emergency - it also had the side effect that the people where not billed for the air time. it was a hole that developed and was closed very quickly (i'm remembering this from ~7 years ago - would have to look it up again)

      --
      '...if only "Jumping to a Conclusion" was an event in the Olympics.'
    46. Re:What a suprise by M.+Baranczak · · Score: 1

      It would be illegal under your scheme to give real time or streaming applications priority.

      And I'm OK with that. Giving preference to certain protocols can solve some minor problems in the short run, but it will certainly be abused. Hell, it's being abused right now.

      Which is a moot point. If the rule-making was left up to engineers, we might have wound up with something reasonable, but it's become too politicized. Given the sheer number of idiots, bullshit-slingers and lawyers who are weighing in on this thing, there's no way this process can end well.

    47. Re:What a suprise by JBMcB · · Score: 1

      They are given priority in the telephone switching network, yes. As traffic increases, switching bandwidth is set aside for emergency services.

      You don't think the whole system is still analog, do you?

      --
      My Other Computer Is A Data General Nova III.
    48. Re:What a suprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Would someone please think of the children!"

    49. Re:What a suprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why do they need priority? I doubt Netflix and Hulu are getting priority with any of the four or five ISPs I've used them on, and they only don't work when the connection is in general unusable (or when they're down for maintenance).

    50. Re:What a suprise by SydShamino · · Score: 1

      It would be illegal under your scheme to give real time or streaming applications priority. Try again. How about, "No Internet provider shall discriminate based on end-points." Discriminate by type of traffic, sure. Discriminate based on where it came from or where it is going, no.

      So the cable company / ISP can discriminate against streaming video?

      Your wording needs more detail.

      --
      It doesn't hurt to be nice.
    51. Re:What a suprise by Wansu · · Score: 1

        Have you heard the Tea Partiers and Conservatives on this issue? They're braying about "government takeover" and calling net neutrality an assault on basic liberties.

      Yeah and the same fools were braying about a "government takeover" of health care. It was actually a health care takeover of government.

      --
      Wansu, th' chinese sailor
    52. Re:What a suprise by oic0 · · Score: 1

      If their network does not have enough oomph to do a VOIP call then they are massively overselling and ripping off all of their customers to begin with.

    53. Re:What a suprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      NO, QoS can be implemented with regard to the type of flow, but does not need to allow Verizon's VoIP to have better service than say Skype. The issue here is that vendor specific implementations/services will be given preferential treatment.

      There is little problem with allowing VoIP to be flagged in a way that gives it priority over other traffic or to use routes that are built for low jitter.
      We need net neutrality for the ISP's not the internet itself...

    54. Re:What a suprise by Curunir_wolf · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Exactly. And this is the fault of all you statists screaming for the government to "do something!!". Well, they did something.

      Next time, be careful what you ask for.

      --
      "Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
      --- Jerry Garcia
    55. Re:What a suprise by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      Have you heard the Tea Partiers and Conservatives on this issue? They're braying about "government takeover" and calling net neutrality an assault on basic liberties.

      Sometimes they're being that restrained, but other times they're also going much further, and calling it a coup d'état :

      President Obama’s Federal Communications Commission (FCC) has fittingly chosen the darkest day in 372 years to impose potentially devastating regulations on the up-to-now free market Internet.

      As the moon was eclipsed earlier today, Congress and the American people will be eclipsed by this regulatory coup d'état -- orchestrated by the White House -- that will substitute the judgment of three Democrats at the FCC for the legitimate democratic process.

    56. Re:What a suprise by MobyDisk · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'm sorry this is long. I tried to narrow it down to 2 sentences that would get noticed by mods, but I can't do it...

      It would be illegal under your scheme to give real time or streaming applications priority.

      No, it means it would be illegal for *the ISP* to determine the priority. That's probably a good thing. To understand why, one must determine two things: 1) Who determines priority, and 2) What does priority actually do?

      1) The ISP and cannot determine the priority, and they should not try.
      In theory, an ISP could use deep packet inspection to guess a priority. Packet A looks like email, packet B looks like a youtube video stream, packet C seems encrypted on an odd port: so it doesn't know. But in reality Packet A is an email with a Powerpoint presentation that someone needs in 2 minutes for a video conference. Packet B is streaming porn. Packet C is a video game where latency is vital. So which of these packets gets priority? There's simply no fair answer, and even if we could agree to one there's no way for the ISP's routers to determine this.

      The TCP/IP protocol is designed to allow the *sender and receiver* to determine the priority. The problem is this relies on the honor system. If someone turns on BitTorrent and sets it to send packets as high QOS, then they are a jerk and they might slow things down for everyone (including themselves - they likely will have trouble browsing the web on their own network.)

      2) What to do with the priority?
      Priority mostly matters when you are saturating your bandwidth. If I am sending an email and it means your streaming video slows down, it doesn't mean you need priority. It means the ISP is out of bandwidth and needs to upgrade their pipes. Priority doesn't speed up packets, it merely slows down other packets. This is why giving ISPs the ability to determine priority is bad. It means they don't have to upgrade their networks to handle the traffic, it just means they can take "undesirables" who use lots of bandwidth and make them pay extra, without having to invest in their networks.

    57. Re:What a suprise by sargon666777 · · Score: 1

      I recall that hole... it was back when the towers simply accepted the phones "word" that the call was a emergency... as such it was routed with the priority of a emergency call. The fix was simple... verify the phone told the truth by checking the terminating number.

      --
      Am I lying when I tell you that im telling the truth? Or am I telling the truth when I say that Im lying?
    58. Re:What a suprise by divisionbyzero · · Score: 1

      It would be illegal under your scheme to give real time or streaming applications priority. Try again. How about, "No Internet provider shall discriminate based on end-points." Discriminate by type of traffic, sure. Discriminate based on where it came from or where it is going, no.

      Would that prevent a network from blocking DDOS traffic to a hosted server on its network?

    59. Re:What a suprise by Nikker · · Score: 1

      I can't say I don't understand your point that carriers need this type setup to ensure my own traffic does not supersede that of others but at the same time each line should have a bare minimum traffic guaranteed at all times even if it is a small fraction of what we are told is our allotment. Most plans provide at bare minimum 3Mb/s even if each end point was guaranteed 1Mb/s that would allow 3-4 decent VOIP lines to function even if the remainder of the ISP's traffic is saturated. I can't say I'm the only one who feels ISP's in general avoid infrastructure upgrades as much as possible but to say even relatively small amounts of traffic can't be routed on demand then it's time for your employer to come out and admit there is a problem.

      --
      A loop, by its nature, continues. If that didn't make sense, start reading this sentence again.
    60. Re:What a suprise by NeverVotedBush · · Score: 4, Funny

      And no we didn't.

    61. Re:What a suprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Money rules this world...

      Only until bullets start flying.

    62. Re:What a suprise by DJRumpy · · Score: 1

      They are not the same. Obama cannot draft legislation for Congress since he is in the Executive Branch. He can only sign what they pass over to his desk. If he can get some of what he wanted from congress, or nothing at all, I suspect he opted for the 'glass is half full'.

    63. Re:What a suprise by DocSavage64109 · · Score: 1

      Good luck getting around your ISPs conjesting of your shared download bandwidth and pings from all out-of-network providers to worthlessness.

    64. Re:What a suprise by deapbluesea · · Score: 1

      because users otherwise would start marking themselves as higher priority than other users

      Reminds me of the old Sun days when Sun workstations used a back-off algorithm that ensured less back-off than the non-Sun workstations. Whenever there was a collision on the line, the Sun would get first dibs because it backed off less. They bragged about how it was faster than other computers on the network. Then people put a bunch of Suns on the network together and they DoS'd each other all day long. We've seen it done once, why wouldn't people do it again with QoS?

      I guess most /.ers are too young to remember those days....Now get off my lawn!

      --
      Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master.
    65. Re:What a suprise by melipone+moody · · Score: 1

      Yes, but ...

    66. Re:What a suprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good.

    67. Re:What a suprise by scubamage · · Score: 1

      You're very correct; however it won't always guarantee a lack of latency, burstiness, packet loss and jitter needed for a decent sounding phone call. Those things matter a bit less for data; you won't care if your packets have a bit more latency than real time data because its not as important. The effect on voice is pretty noticable though. That said, many providers never bother to use QoS outside of regulatory stuff so you're pretty much correct ;)

    68. Re:What a suprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      how about I discriminate against Vonage because I want you to buy my Triple Play bundle?

    69. Re:What a suprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh please! He IS McCain.. Bush, Reagan, all of them! In blackface. Black people around the world should be deeply offended, but instead they're all star struck by, "ooooh black president.. we have overcome". Bunch of big dummies they are, actually believing they're being allowed in the clubhouse.. maybe through the service entrance when they punch in for work

    70. Re:What a suprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I thought we were supposed to interpret that as "I hope I still have some change in my pocket when he's done."

    71. Re:What a suprise by countertrolling · · Score: 1

      Clogged pipes? Run a snake! Like a worm, with teeth.. Well fangs anyway. The providers are just supposed to supply the pipe. We'll decide what to put through them.

      --
      For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
    72. Re:What a suprise by spun · · Score: 1

      They can discriminate against streaming video if they discriminate against ALL streaming video, including their own. Businesses that might want to buy a plan like that.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    73. Re:What a suprise by skids · · Score: 1

      This book is on my things-to-tell-my-employer-to-buy-me list.

    74. Re:What a suprise by mldi · · Score: 1

      More importantly, what if a carrier network is carrying VoIP traffic? Your rule would make it illegal to give 911 calls priority over all other traffic, and would undermine the ideas of QoS. I agree with your rule in spirit, but it needs some amendments to be practical.

      That one's easy. It's much easier to legislate the exceptions than to come up with a whole new rule. I don't think anybody's gonna call out Comcast for giving priority to emergency services in the meantime.

      --
      If you aren't suspicious of your government's actions, you aren't doing your job as a responsible citizen.
    75. Re:What a suprise by spun · · Score: 2

      Competitors' protocols, wtf? Who uses proprietary protocols?

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    76. Re:What a suprise by Jeremiah+Cornelius · · Score: 4, Funny

      Obama's job on the issue of "Net Neutrality" is much like Bush's ballyhooed "Healthy Forests" initiative: a back-stabbing lie, designed to surrender sovereignty to private corporations and enforce this degradation with the power of law.

      America: Love your banana republic or leave it.

      --
      "Flyin' in just a sweet place,
      Never been known to fail..."
    77. Re:What a suprise by beakerMeep · · Score: 1

      How is toothless regulation a problem for the anti-regulation crowd? Or were you just pining for a chance to call someone a statist?

      Most of those who are pro Net Neutrality wanted real regulation, not toothless fluff to cater to the anti-regulation, pro-business crowd. If anything it's your pocliy positions that got us this. Toothless regulation is pretty much the same as no regulation in my mind.

      --
      meep
    78. Re:What a suprise by honkycat · · Score: 1

      Do you know what "legislate[d] exceptions" are called? Loopholes. When they're necessary, they're less bad than passing a law that will necessarily be broken from the get-go.

    79. Re:What a suprise by beakerMeep · · Score: 1

      Yes why in the world would the Federal Communications Commission, that normally regulates Telcos and Cable companies, think it has authority to regulate a new communication and information service they provide over the same wires and spectrum with some of the same types of content as cable and telephones.

      Golly gee, that's just crazy talk!

      /s

      --
      meep
    80. Re:What a suprise by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      I don't think he "had to" cave to anyone, he is the fricking POTUS! I think the real problem is Obama is so wishy washy he makes Carter look like he has a spine. Almost from the minute he has taken office all he has done is flip flop and make concessions.

      Well if he thinks he is making friends this way he is wrong, as NOBODY likes a spineless leader. I predict the Rs could run Bozo the fricking clown and win by a landslide. Right now the only hope for Obama is if the Rs get taken over by the tea party and they run Palin, but sadly with as spineless as Obama is acting it would probably be a close race...shudder.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    81. Re:What a suprise by skids · · Score: 1

      You can build all the "oomph" you want into a network, it is still not going to protect it from packet latency due to best-effort traffic spikes. You need QoS for voice, period.

      (Technically it would be possible to build a nonblocking network -- nobody would be able afford to subscribe. Well maybe Wall Street CEOs.)

    82. Re:What a suprise by Logic+Worshipper · · Score: 1

      False. QOS is pretty much useless unless it's respected by the ISP. Where QOS matters most is the at the point of congestion, which is usually the last mile. For QOS to work properly, it should be respected by the ISP.

    83. Re:What a suprise by mldi · · Score: 1

      So, legislating that emergency services are given absolute highest QoS and uninterrupted service is a loophole? How so? Please explain?

      --
      If you aren't suspicious of your government's actions, you aren't doing your job as a responsible citizen.
    84. Re:What a suprise by Jonner · · Score: 1

      Why does one have to choose?

    85. Re:What a suprise by An+ominous+Cow+art · · Score: 1

      We are all Kosh.

    86. Re:What a suprise by Curunir_wolf · · Score: 2

      I don't have to "pine" for a chance to call people statist - there are ample opportunities for that these days.

      Just so you know, I used to be a very outspoken supporter of net neutrality. That is, until the modis operandi of the rulers in Washington became clear. They have no interest in doing anything that doesn't expand their power - and despite the attempts to educate the legislators what was meant by "network neutrality", it quickly became clear that what they were fishing for was an excuse to implement broad new authority over the entire medium.

      Make no mistake - this first step is just that: a first step. The reason for appeasing the ISPs has nothing to do with "caving in" - it was vital to ensure buy-in to the new regulatory regime. First they let the ISPs marginalize the smaller players while raking in extra profits, then they use the partnership to start shutting down their political opponents' voices entirely.

      Sound too much like tin-foil-hattery to you? History is replete with examples of these types of slow build-up of tyrannical power. Why would here and now be any different?

      --
      "Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
      --- Jerry Garcia
    87. Re:What a suprise by clarkkent09 · · Score: 2

      Because courts say it does not: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/04/06/tech/main6368331.shtml
      Because congress majority says it does not: http://thehill.com/blogs/hillicon-valley/technology/100487-after-republican-letter-over-240-house-members-oppose-fcc-plan

      But what does it matter what federal courts and elected representatives say when an unelected five man commission says otherwise with a 3-2 vote, right?

      --
      Negative moral value of force outweighs the positive value of good intentions.
    88. Re:What a suprise by hairyfeet · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Oh but you are missing the sneakier way they are gonna get you...caps. I'm in one of the test markets for the new caps, which BTW are 36GB for residential, and 76GB for business. Now that is $106! for the bundle with basic cable and phone, or $180! for the "business" which is the same just with a higher cap. Now here is how they get you:

      Vonage? Counts against the cap. Their VoIP? Don't. Linux and Mac updates? Count. Windows? Don't because they got "donated" a WSUS server. Anyone other than Netflix and Youtube? Counts. Their PPV along with Youtube and Netflix? Don't, and the only reason you are allowed Youtube and Netflix is they paid to put a local server. Starting to see a trend?

      At $1.50 a GB and a low cap it really doesn't take much to "steer" your customer wherever you want them to go. Remember the days of the AOL walled garden? Well its about to be back boys and girls. Sure you can go where they don't want you to, but it will cost you out the ass. Stay in this nice little garden and we won't bend you over the barrel.

      For all those that were "corporation yay!" you are about to get a taste of what uncontrolled greed is like, and you ain't gonna like it! We in the USA will be shuttled onto the short bus of the information superhighway while the rest of the world gets 100MBs+ lines and looks at us as the backwater that we are. I mean when the backwaters of fricking Romania have higher speeds than NYC and LA? Well something is VERY wrong here.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    89. Re:What a suprise by Spiflicator · · Score: 1

      As I sit with my half-empty cup of water, I assume this would only be used to raise prices for [insert metallic adj.] features, while keeping your price the same for your newly reduced service.

    90. Re:What a suprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thank you, liberals, for involving the government in yet another aspect of my daily life. Nothing quite like suckling at the tit of authority, wouldn't you agree?

    91. Re:What a suprise by wealthychef · · Score: 1

      It's more like a mindset of Washington: "It's better to pass a bad law than no law at all."

      --
      Currently hooked on AMP
    92. Re:What a suprise by Unequivocal · · Score: 1

      Everyone I've heard discuss this at policy level (business, FCC and consumer advocates like Public Knowledge) seems to agree that "reasonable network management" exemptions are ok in a net netural policy, so I think your language needs a little more nuance, but I agree that from a principled perspective you've got it right.

    93. Re:What a suprise by Unequivocal · · Score: 1

      FCC is a congressional commission, so in effect it is an arm of Congress. Congress can certainly de-fund it but it can also change how it manages it. It is different from how it works between Congress and NTIA/Commerce which is an executive branch agency..

      We'll see how things play in the next House, but Rockefeller was head of the committee which administers FCC and has been largely supportive of NN so far as best as I can tell. So why Genachowski didn't go further with support of two other commissioners and the head of the committee who manages him, I have no idea.

    94. Re:What a suprise by spitzak · · Score: 1

      Your rule would make it illegal to give 911 calls priority over all other traffic

      Yes, it would be illegal to give 911 calls priority over other traffic. However it WILL be legal to divvy up the available bandwidth evenly and give every user a guaranteed minimum amount. This will be enough to make a 911 call (if not then there is something serioulsly lacking in the infrastructure).

      If everybody calls 911, then the person who was using 100% of the bandwidth on bittorrent will suddenly be reduced to approximately the same bandwidth as a 911 call takes.

      This is really really easy to understand if you stop making bullshit arguments to try to defeat it.

    95. Re:What a suprise by spitzak · · Score: 1

      Would that prevent a network from blocking DDOS traffic to a hosted server on its network?

      No.

      Putting a cap on how many communications are sent to a destination is not discrimination. So, yes, a network can block a DDOS attack. Unless that DDOS somehow consists of no more data or signals than normal use of the site, which would indicate a DDOS that is triggering a bug on the site's server and should be fixed by the site themselves.

      Next wild attempt to make NN sound bad, please...

    96. Re:What a suprise by timeOday · · Score: 2
      Based on the article (and the ones it linked), I'm not ready to draw too many conclusions yet. It's a complex issue and the article is really just a screed.

      What I'd like to see is a collection of use-cases.

      For example, I use an ooma device for phone, whereas I'm sure Comcast prefer I use their phone service. In what ways, if any, will Comcast still be allowed to discriminate against data to/from Ooma? (Not that I've noticed any issues so far).

      Second obvious use case, video. I buy video from netflix and amazon streaming. Could Comcast use their position to ruin these services for me, or will this regulation protect them and me?

      I realize this legislation is rather complex, and by asking for specific analyses of these questions, I'm asking for a lot. But then again, if people can't answer such questions, they shouldn't take a position and rant about the govt. selling out, either.

    97. Re:What a suprise by GiveBenADollar · · Score: 1

      When has the government defunded anything? Anything big? They are much more likely to create the FCC Joint Bipartisan Regulation Committee which will provide 'oversight' to the FCC while each member will pocket even more corporate cash.

    98. Re:What a suprise by Khyber · · Score: 1

      If you're relying upon VOIP for 911, you're a fucking moron.

      Emergency systems should have their own goddamned systems so NOTHING ELSE INTERFERES.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    99. Re:What a suprise by Khyber · · Score: 1

      "All of these decisions get modified when its an emergency call."

      The fact you don't have an emergency system on it's own separate network so nothing else would screw with it makes me NEVER want to hire you or do business with you.

      You just proved total incompetence for the position you hold.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    100. Re:What a suprise by PopeRatzo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      will this regulation protect them and me?

      No.

      The only way to achieve net neutrality is to break up the big telcos. Telephone companies should not be broadband providers or content providers: period. Cable television companies should not be broadband providers, period. They have to spin off those divisions and keep them completely separate.

      Yes, it's time to break up the telcos, yet again.

      But that's not going to happen, so it's best to just assume the internet is going to become cable TV.

      I'm hoping for research into (I forgot what they're called) "honeycomb" networks that are basically internets without a backbone. Sort of an amateur radio internet. I don't really care if I can stream video. I just want to be sure I can get wikileaks and Slashdot.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    101. Re:What a suprise by shadowfaxcrx · · Score: 1

      Ah, but would companies start using them if they saw an economic advantage to it?

      --
      "I disagree with you" does not equal "flamebait."
    102. Re:What a suprise by theshowmecanuck · · Score: 3, Insightful

      He is worse in that he advertised so heavily that he was not as bad, and would bring a government that cared about the people rather than corporations. That was his mandate. Now people are finding that he is in fact a political huckster sucking so hard on the corporate cock that he is indistinguishable from a republican corporate whore. Personally I am not surprised as I never believe hype that is pushed as hard as his campaign and supporters pushed at us. I will admit that I am disappointed.

      I think the American political support of corporations will self correct however. Unfortunately it will be when the rest of the world overtakes America economically. When the U.S. finds itself dying economically because the corporate stranglehold on innovation a fair competition finally kills any pretense of the U.S. having sound business sense/thinking. Granted with 300 million people it will be a slow and painful death, but it will happen.

      The thing is, it has already started. China, Brazil, Russia, and India are becoming economic powerhouses (Brazil's economy is growing like gangbusters right now, and is expected to move up a place to be the seventh largest economy in the world in 2011... China will stay at number 2). If the EU finally gets its head out of its own ass and works together, it collectively can become one of the top three or four economies. But they need to balance their budgets and stop thinking they deserve one month summer vacations and free daycare and all their welfare state mentalities. And especially stop listening to U.S. lobbyists who want the E.U. to jump off the corporate control cliff with them.

      What puzzles me is that there are so many Americans that run around claiming they need guns because they can't trust the government. Meanwhile it seems like the corporations are fucking them over even harder. Mind you they are doing it by controlling the government. So maybe they have something there.

      --
      -- I ignore anonymous replies to my comments and postings.
    103. Re:What a suprise by stdarg · · Score: 1

      Your rule is uncompromising - what happens when Anonymous decide to DDoS some poor 14 year old who criticised them on his self-hosted blog?

      The ISP may be able to handle 10GB/sec, but his ADSL line won't

      What happens currently in that situation? It's not like the ISP magically upgrades your home line to 10.5GB/sec OR gives you the tools you need to block the bad traffic (source quench) because those tools are open to abuse as well.

      Really it should be handled through a combination of services. Some kind of mirroring service provided the by ISP, and a way to quickly change your IP address without resetting your modem and praying you get a new one. Limited to 1 change per minute it doesn't seem that open to abuse either.

    104. Re:What a suprise by Khyber · · Score: 1

      Skype, for one.

      Uh, DUH? Hello Encrypted Communications Protocols? Are you home or just too stoned to answer?

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    105. Re:What a suprise by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      If they have to do so in order to get their hands in your wallet, the ISPs will.

    106. Re:What a suprise by stdarg · · Score: 1

      More importantly, what if a carrier network is carrying VoIP traffic? Your rule would make it illegal to give 911 calls priority over all other traffic

      Why not make that a separate service than your general internet connection?

      My understanding of net neutrality is to secure the idea of a general purpose connection. If I pay for an "up to" 20mbps line, then I expect to get up to 20mbps from youtube, hulu, netflix, or whoever has enough capacity to saturate it. Now the actual capacity of my line to my isp may be 30mbps. So why not say I have a 20mbps line, which no other traffic can interfere with, and also a 1mbps voip line, which no other traffic can interfere with.

      And if you want to run your voip on your general purpose line instead of the special voip line, so what? It's your choice at that point.

    107. Re:What a suprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They have no interest in doing anything that doesn't expand their power

      God I'm tired of this oversimplified Ayn Rand bullshit. Just post some nonsense about the government wanting to "expand its power" or call everyone you disagree with a "statist" and BLAMMO! +5 Insightful

    108. Re:What a suprise by spun · · Score: 1

      Of course they would, but let me just try to analyze where I think you are going with this, because I think you missed something. If regulations permitted discrimination based on a competitors' protocols, as the original poster asked, then all someone would have to do is use non-proprietary protocols, and they wouldn't get discriminated against. So, the law would kill two birds with one stone, preventing discrimination based on who is sending something, and encouraging open standards.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    109. Re:What a suprise by _Sharp'r_ · · Score: 1

      If only someone had warned that the reality of net neutrality imposed by the FCC would be regulatory capture and ultimately less freedom for consumers... its too bad no one thought of that ahead of time, huh?

      --
      The party of stupid and the party of evil get together and do something both stupid and evil, then call it bipartisan.
    110. Re:What a suprise by spun · · Score: 1

      So, they use proprietary protocols. They can't discriminate based on end-points. Everyone starts using their protocols, and they can't do anything about it. In the meanwhile, it won't help them slow down the web. Customers want the web. If they deliver "the web" at all, they can't discriminate based on who is sending and receiving from port 80. Their websites will be just as fast or slow as their competitors, all other things being equal.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    111. Re:What a suprise by spun · · Score: 1

      Skype doesn't use IP? Wait, I see what's going on. We're talking different levels of the stack here.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    112. Re:What a suprise by drsmithy · · Score: 1

      So. You are saying that "No internet provider shall at any time or for any reason discriminate against any particular types of traffic going to their subscribers." Needs some industry insider complexity thrown in for some mystical reason?

      Well, there are very good reasons why a provider may need to "discriminate" against "particular types of traffic". Protecting themselves and their customers against a DDoS, for example, or ensuring latency-sensitive protocols like VOIP have precedence.

    113. Re:What a suprise by Dishevel · · Score: 0

      It should not be the providers responsibility to make 911 work.

      --
      Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
    114. Re:What a suprise by timeOday · · Score: 1

      To balance the crazy left-wing nutcase view of huffington post here is the opinion of one of the FCC commissioners who is against the proposal:

      If you want to actively counterbalance it, here is how Fox is reporting the same event:

      "FCC Approves Plan to Regulate Internet WASHINGTON -- The Federal Communications Commission on Tuesday approved a plan to regulate the Internet despite warnings that it could strangle industry investment and damage an economy that is still struggling to recover. The 3-2 vote fell along partisan lines with Democrats capitalizing on their numerical advantage...

      ...and so on.

    115. Re:What a suprise by shadowfaxcrx · · Score: 2

      Actually I was going the opposite direction. If I were running a provider and I wanted to give myself an advantage, I'd implement the protocol myself and then discriminate against anything that doesn't use my protocol.

      --
      "I disagree with you" does not equal "flamebait."
    116. Re:What a suprise by spun · · Score: 1

      Does your protocol use IP? That is the level of the stack I was talking about. If you don't use IP, you are not an Internet provider. I'm saying, discrimination based on port number is okay. Not on end point. So you could set up proprietary protocols 'till the cows come home, and others will simply use the port you don't discriminate on for their traffic. And people want "the web" when the buy Internet service. If the ISP provides access to the web, then all access to the web happens at the same speed. They can not shake down popular websites for extra cash.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    117. Re:What a suprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... I can tell you for a fact that you we DO to handle QoS as well as the user.

      You can't hear me by the rumor which I you don't for drop QoS from bad from a owner.

    118. Re:What a suprise by HeckRuler · · Score: 1

      Sorry, I could have said "so discriminating against competitors' traffic is ok?"
      As, you know, the fact that it belongs to a competitor is certainty a "type of traffic".

    119. Re:What a suprise by spun · · Score: 1

      No, I'm talking about no discrimination based on IP address, but based on port number. So you couldn't discriminate against a competitor, but you could prioritize certain types of traffic to everyone.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    120. Re:What a suprise by HeckRuler · · Score: 1

      But they can slow down anything going to port 80 that contains Flash objects, because you didn't pay to watch youtube videos.
      They could block any encrypted data, because you didn't buy their AV software, and you just can't be trusted otherwise.
      They could do a lot of shit.

    121. Re:What a suprise by Mister+Whirly · · Score: 1

      I don't think that was what he was actually saying, but it is certainly what some of his supporters were saying and thinking. Anybody with a reasonably logical mind knew that not much would really change, which you admit yourself. Don't let the far left or right tell you to be pleased or disappointed.

      --
      "But this one goes to 11!"
    122. Re:What a suprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As someone who works for a telephony carrier, I can tell you for a fact that you we DO to handle QoS as well as the user.

      Oh god , it's worse than I thought

    123. Re:What a suprise by spun · · Score: 1

      But they can slow down anything going to port 80 that contains Flash objects, because you didn't pay to watch youtube videos.

      No, they couldn't (we are talking hypotheticals here, and it is MY hypothetical, and I wouldn't write in anything about deep packet inspection.

      They could block any encrypted data, because you didn't buy their AV software, and you just can't be trusted otherwise.

      They could do a lot of shit.

      No, they couldn't because that would again require deep packet inspection.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    124. Re:What a suprise by beakerMeep · · Score: 1

      What the current congress feels about the matter is a bit irrelevant since the powers the FCC have are derived from the Telecommunications act of 1996. The Federal Court said they didn't have the legal framework to regulate under Title I. However, seeing as they do have the legal framework to regulate telecommunications under title II, and other titles, it's still possible they do from a legal sense if they were to reclassify.

      Basically the court didn't simply say "u dunt haz authority on internets." Rather, it was a legal technicality that was the inevitable result of reclassifying telcos and cable internet under title I as information services so as to "deregulate" them. This actually helped strengthen the monopolies of the telcos to be on par with cable monopolies.

      And the court was wrong to decide the way it did. Did you know that Comcast had previously gotten it's way out of a class action lawsuit from its users by saying the FCC did have the authority? Then only to turn around and argue in that case the FCC didn't have the authority?

      Regardless, if you honestly think it's unreasonable for the regulatory body for telcos and cable companies should not regulate internet services (which they bundle with video and phone) from those same companies, then I don't know what to tell you.

      Of course it matters what representatives and courts say and do, but I feel the majority of them as so far in the wrong as to be mind boggling. This is clearly what the FCC was created for. You can argue that regulation isn't needed, and that's a valid opinion, but to say that the FCC has no business regulating communications services because of imprecise legal language is just sad diversionary bs.

      --
      meep
    125. Re:What a suprise by i_b_don · · Score: 2

      Honest question, no trolls or political flamers need apply.

      If conservatives like the free market, why do they think that applying regulations or laws to keep the market free is a bad thing? This seems like a straight forward issue of making sure the telco's and internet providers don't abuse their control over your internet pipe to either make sure their services win against competitors or hold hostage good bandwidth to upstream companies in order to get bits of data to your house. How is this a bad thing?

      It seems like in all these conservatives vs liberal economic discussions, conservatives seem themselves on the side of the corporation and liberals see themselves on the side of the individual. Liberals like myself LIKE the free market but we demand regulation to keep it fair and thus free. Why aren't conservatives exactly the same?

      Please any conservative who is interested in a honest discussion explain things to me. This is how I see it and I just plain don't get the other view. After all, in my framing, the other side is saying "we will fight for the corporation's to financially rape us to their hearts content, restrict information flow to MY house, control who *I* use, and potentially block out content *I* want to see just because they feel like it." How is government regulation worse than that?

      Please leave out the talking point bullshit, just honest (and rational) views.

      d

      --
      all language nazi's will burne in heil!
    126. Re:What a suprise by mrmeval · · Score: 1

      Money rules Obama and the FCC.

      --
      I'd go on a Vegan diet but the delivery time from Vega is too long. --brownkitty
    127. Re:What a suprise by shadowfaxcrx · · Score: 1

      Even if they sniff the data coming down as a result of the web request?

      I'm not trying to argue, but to get educated here - - Wouldn't it be possible (technically, leave legal aside) to analyze the data coming across, discover "oh, hey, this is coming from cbs.com, and since Comcast just merged with NBC, we're gonna drop the speed until we see data that is *not* coming from cbs.com?"

      --
      "I disagree with you" does not equal "flamebait."
    128. Re:What a suprise by DragonWriter · · Score: 2

      If the passed regulation plan does not meet any of the goals of the net neutrality supporters (as huff po article suggests) then why pass it?

      Since the HuffPo article was put together before anyone had even excerpts of the order passed today (which were provided in the news release after the vote on the order; the full text still hasn't been released) it should be noted that any resemblance between the characterization in HuffPo and the actual Report and Order would be coincidental.

      As it turns out -- from the excerpts of the Report and Order provided in the official news release from the FCC -- the actual order specifically prevents blocking any legal websites, or blocking competing voice and video services on mobile broadband, and has much stronger anti-blocking and anti-discrimination protection on fixed broadband, and specifically lays out the position that paid prioritization will almost always constitute "unreasonable discrimination" in violation of the anti-discrimination provisions.

      While its not everything net neutrality supporters wanted, it is also not something that "does not meet any of the goals of the net neutrality supporters."

    129. Re:What a suprise by kantier · · Score: 1
    130. Re:What a suprise by jbylake · · Score: 1

      Remember the kerfuffle when Ralph Nader wondered if Obama would become a metaphorical "Uncle Tom" to corporate interests? This is what he meant.

      The vote was for Government control of U.S internet, not bowing to "commercial" interests. Read the freaking story. You Obama kool-aid drinkers can twist anything to protect that dumbass in the White House. The Yea votes were also Obama appointees. Government control is not bowing to special interests, especially "corporate" interests. It was also done ignoring a court order against FCC taking Control. U.S. forumites here have seen Government Grabbing of the Health Care System, The Auto industry, and now U.S. Internet interests.

    131. Re:What a suprise by scubamage · · Score: 1

      So, you would propose having two telephones to every home, so there's strictly one there for backup? What you seem to want done is wholly impractical. Emergency calls run over the same network as all other voice calls. We just make sure that they're given priority.

    132. Re:What a suprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      OK, smart boy, when has this generalization ever proven wrong in the long run?

      Easy to call people Randroids and make fun of their legitimate concerns, not so easy to come up with actual counterexamples.

    133. Re:What a suprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You do know that corporations are just as powerful in the BRIC countries as they are in the US...

    134. Re:What a suprise by theshowmecanuck · · Score: 1

      But I don't think that the corporations will have the same kind of power in China nor Russia. Their governments don't suffer the competition as well. So the corporations won't have the power to dominate. Besides, their governments won't likely allow foreign corporations to have more power than their own, so the competition laws will likely end up being more fair, if there are any at all. As well, with more competition to the U.S. the more the U.S. will see that their current laws are holding them back from competing. If innovation fails to take place because of strangulating patent laws and anti-competitive behaviour, America will fail even more.

      --
      -- I ignore anonymous replies to my comments and postings.
    135. Re:What a suprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why should europeans stop getting long summer vacations or free daycare? They should stop bailing out banks ... Who are you to tell the Europeans what they should want. Their economies are overall doing much better than ours. They don't have people without healthcare, approaching retirement and without a financial plan, etc.

    136. Re:What a suprise by jkxx · · Score: 1

      Comcast is not officially preventing any services from their network, although they were caught throttling bittorrent traffic in the past.

      I've had an Asterisk PBX running on a Comcast account for several years with few to no problems so far. However, Comcast has an interest in degrading SIP as well as video services from 3rd party providers since they provide both of these themselves.

      The fact that the telcos are cheering means today's legislation favors content discrimination and they'll no doubt be taking advantage of it soon.

      I guess we should enjoy these multimedia services while they last, and that won't be long.

    137. Re:What a suprise by fishexe · · Score: 1

      Is this meant as a criticism of Obama or the fact that Obama had to cave in to people who are against net neutrality?

      Clearly it's a criticism of "this world."

      --
      "I don't care about the Constitution!" --Bill O'Reilly, November 17, 2009
    138. Re:What a suprise by fishexe · · Score: 1

      Well intentioned laws are not allowed to have bad consequences. If an Internet 911 call was dropped because the network provider was not allowed to give it priority, the network provider would be sued.

      For following the rules? The fact that "the network provider was not allowed" to do other than they did would instantly defeat that suit. On the other hand, you are right that we should probably craft the rules with the right type of exception so that that 911 call goes through in the first place.

      --
      "I don't care about the Constitution!" --Bill O'Reilly, November 17, 2009
    139. Re:What a suprise by fishexe · · Score: 1

      Indeed it does, and since the FCC insists on crafting Law (a job I THINK was left to Congress in our Constitution)....

      Congress has crafted law, under its Constitutional authority, which delegates regulatory authority to certain administrative agencies. This includes the FCC.

      --
      "I don't care about the Constitution!" --Bill O'Reilly, November 17, 2009
    140. Re:What a suprise by Wandering+Idiot · · Score: 1

      Well, your simplistic and impractical opinions make me think you're incompetent to hold any job involving anything more complex than a toaster, and even then you'd probably get the darkness setting wrong.

      Tootles!

    141. Re:What a suprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the EU finally gets its head out of its own ass and works together, it collectively can become one of the top three or four economies. But they need to balance their budgets and stop thinking they deserve one month summer vacations and free daycare and all their welfare state mentalities.

      So close, yet so very very far. It is exactly because the workers in the EU get a healthy measure of social programs, paid vacation days, that they are productive and moving forward to the future where America is the that country which once mattered.

      You can either have wage-slave-labour or you can have a society which supports and values the middle class.
      America has obviously opted for the first option...

    142. Re:What a suprise by protektor · · Score: 1

      Throttling to the lowest level of bandwidth to make it basically unusable isn't the same as blocking. Based on what I have read of the order they absolutely can throttle down other traffic without breaking these new rules. If that breaks your internet application or makes it unusable, too bad. They will tell you to switch to their service which has better performance. That isn't protecting the consumer that is giving the telcos and cable companies a bigger hammer to beat the public down with legally.

      They don't have to block traffic to get the same/similar end results as blocking. Throttling all non-local SIP/VOIP traffic down to 2k/sec would be legal. Throttling down all non-local streaming audio and video to 2k/sec would be totally legal. They will do it claiming, it makes their network run better. Well it kind of would since there is little traffic, other things will run better but it completely screws the consumer and gets around the spirit of what they were suppose to be doing here. They throttle traffic and then say, see our phone service runs better and our pay video on demand service runs better, that's why we throttled everyone else to make the network better. They only made it better for their services not for everyone trying to use the internet to get to random places online.

      This is worse than if they had done nothing at all. Instead of having isolated cases like "Comcast and BitTorrent" and "Comcast and Level 3/Netflix", now every backbone provider and ISP can legally do the same thing and there is nothing anyone can do about it. You can't pick a new ISP because everyone will be doing it. You know Comcast has to be leaping for joy. Now they can legally do what they were doing before and there isn't anyone who can tell them to stop.

      The FCC screwed the American public and they should have kept their hands out of the internet.

    143. Re:What a suprise by Wandering+Idiot · · Score: 1

      However it WILL be legal to divvy up the available bandwidth evenly and give every user a guaranteed minimum amount.

      Dear god, do you know *anything* about telecommunications? If you want absolutely guaranteed bandwidth regardless of congestion, you're going to be paying something like T1 prices for internet service (around $300/month just for basic 1.5 Mbit). Service providers can estimate a certain amount of bandwidth under most conditions, but making it anything close to an actual guarantee under all circumstances requires a lot of redundancies, and provisioning for maximum theoretical usage by all clients at once rather than anything approaching real-world patterns. I'm sorry if actual reality strikes you as "bullshit arguments".


      If you want to take market pricing out of it and socialize the entire infrastucture, that's a different matter, although that still has its own problems, and would be a huge undertaking either way.

    144. Re:What a suprise by protektor · · Score: 1

      Corporatism is the biggest problem in America. It will never go away until the public rises up and demands changes. The corporations will never die they will just move things around and sell to other countries to keep making a profit at any cost. You can already see them doing this. They have moved so many different parts of their operations outside of America. Corporations only care about one thing, profit. They love control and power because it lets them get more profit. The American public to a certain degree is responsible for this. We have as a society told corporations that if you aren't growing at least 20+% per year then you are a crap company not worth anyone's time. Corporations got the message and they do whatever it takes to keep profits growing year after year.

      Until there are major legal changes and major shifts in the attitudes of the majority of the American public, we are basically screwed. There are more corporate executives in the government these days than I can ever recall. You think they only have the public's interest at heart? Think again they are there to do favors for their corporate buddies so when they leave office they will have a nice chushie job to go with a large salary. You only have to look at how far lobbyists have wormed in to the political process. You have lobbyist writing bills then handing them off to someone in Congress to try and get them enacted. You have companies that contribute huge amounts of money to both parties to make sure no matter who wins they are still protected.

      The Democrats and the Republicans have become two arms of the same house. They both do exactly the same things just to different degrees. The public has no chance of changing this because the two parties control everything. They control who is allowed in the Presidential debates. They control huge amounts of money for advertising to promote the idea that if you vote 3rd party you are throwing away your vote, so vote mainstream. All you have to do is look at history to see how 3rd party candidates have been treated by both parties. You combine this with Corporatism in American and the American public has very little chance to make huge sweeping changes required to actually make things better. I suspect it won't be until the average American is bankrupt and all the governments are bankrupt that only then will sweeping changes come. None of this will effect the corporations they will keep getting bailouts when they do stupid stuff, and they will keep doing whatever it takes at any cost to continue to make profits.

      It isn't about class warfare or the haves and have nots. It isn't about Democrats versus Republicans. That is all a distraction from the fact that Corporations have taken over, and we need to band together as a country and make some seriously hard choices and take control of our government back, and give the power back to the people. The government isn't there to take care of us. It is there to do the least possible to make sure we get to exercise our freedoms. The states should have far larger power that the Federal government but it doesn't work that way. The local city governments should have far more power in our daily lives, but it doesn't work that way either. The governments closest to us should be the ones with the most power to effect our daily lives, not some government body hundreds of miles away. Until a majority of the American public realizes this and is ready to seriously rise up against the system and make sweeping changes, nothing with change, and we will get the same crap we have for years and worse. If the American public doesn't start making changes we are going to end up exactly the same as Europe, specifically Greece, Ireland, and Belgium.

    145. Re:What a suprise by protektor · · Score: 1

      No they are just bankrupt from borrowing so much money over the years. They only have debt higher than their GDP and the interest payments alone are killing them. Then you can look at Belgium who doesn't even have a government right now. Yea Europe is doing so well. Big banks aren't their only issue, but they certainly don't help the problem.

    146. Re:What a suprise by protektor · · Score: 1

      If you think you can get around your ISP actively controlling all your traffic you don't understand how the Internet or ISPs works. ISPs already do have machines that look inside every TCP/IP packet and figure out what kind of traffic they are and then route or bandwidth shape based on their rules. You think BitTorrent, SIP, Skype, etc. couldn't be shut down in a heartbeat by an ISP, think again. If you know about an application the ISPs know about the same applications. They just install load balancers, spread the load across multiple servers/appliances and then crack open every packet to see what is going on and where it is going and what exactly it is. This is child's play now. I can name at least 5 different products off the top of my head that do this already and I am sure there are loads more out there. An ISP can block or traffic shape anything they want these days without any problems at all. People need to give up this idea that what they do online is a secret or private. Wrong! Any ISP along the way to the destination site can see everything you are doing anytime they want to. It isn't a question of if they can see, it's a question of if they want to bother to do it. SSL and other encryptions don't hide who you are communicating to and what application your using, it just hides the specifics of what you are doing in the application. So even encrypted traffic can by blocked or shaped.

      What the FCC has done is just make all of this more legal, rather than issue of just contracts with the customer.

    147. Re:What a suprise by protektor · · Score: 1

      Or he can write Executive Orders and by pass Congress for most things. Executive Orders have become a serious problem in that they get around the whole checks and balances system originally setup.

    148. Re:What a suprise by protektor · · Score: 1

      We heard about the "hope" and the "change" but it seems like to quote Princess Bride "I do not think that means what you think it means."

    149. Re:What a suprise by protektor · · Score: 1

      What exactly does the ability to shape traffic on their networks to improve network performance mean to you? It means to me that they can favor any traffic they want without actually blocking traffic. If I traffic shape you down to 2k/sec, hey I didn't block you and I made my network better. Oh your stuff is unusable now? Too bad, deal with it. Every ISP and backbone provider will start doing this. You want your traffic to be preferred above all others? Well that is going to cost you, how much do you have? No I can't tell you a price, until you tell me how much you have. That is exactly what is going to happen. The software and the hardware to do this exact thing is already out there and is very cheap to buy and easy to setup and very powerful at controlling traffic.

    150. Re:What a suprise by ShakaUVM · · Score: 1

      >>any competently put together "net neutrality" policy will necessarily be very complex

      Is that so? How about this:
      "Common carrier laws apply to internet carriers as well."

      Seems easy enough to me.

    151. Re:What a suprise by protektor · · Score: 1

      You forgetting that most of the time these are bot nets that are doing the DoS. So if hundreds to thousands of machines all hit 1 IP address or network at the same time it can and does flood out connections so that nothing else gets in or out. At that point the ISP can do nothing since his incoming pipe is completely slammed and no amount of blocking or traffic shaping will do any good since the pipe coming in before it gets to his first router is completely saturated. That is when you have to go to upstream providers and providers closer to the attackers and get them to shut things down.

    152. Re:What a suprise by protektor · · Score: 1

      They may not be able to shake down websites but they can for sure do what they are already doing and now sweeten it up with making the local traffic preferred. They can sell local rack space to CDN (content distribution networks) so the traffic is local and give it priority since they just want to make their own network run well, and they can't control what happens out on the big bad Internet. Yahoo, Netflix, and many many other 3rd party CDNs who sell service to CNN, ABC, etc are already doing this. Akamai was one of the early companies who did this. They paid to put their servers in ISPs to make their clients traffic come up faster for the public. Now how do you address this issue?

    153. Re:What a suprise by rtb61 · · Score: 1

      Perhaps Ralph Nader put it best http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IshiClQqCM, hmm, Uncle Tom Obama and, look who is doing the defening Fox not-News.

      So is Obama caving or just doing his job. Ralph certainly doesn't cave in for Fox not-News.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    154. Re:What a suprise by protektor · · Score: 1

      Absolutely. There are dozens of products already on the market that do this exact thing. They crack open every connection, look to see where it is going, who it is from, what application created the packet, and what kind of content it is then route & traffic shape on it based on the ISPs rules. How do you think ISPs have throttled BitTorrent and schools who have been doing the same thing for years? It is very easy and very simple and very cheap for ISPs to set up the servers/appliances to do this, and I would be very surprised if there is an ISP left in America that isn't already doing this. Oh you think there is too much traffic to look at/crack open every packet? Wrong, just load balance the traffic across multiple servers/appliances and you won't have a problem at all. If you can think of a rule it can be done.

      You can route based on if it is an image in the web request and transparently redirect it to a different server. You can redirect based on geographic location aka global load balancing. You can redirect if it is an web input response to the web database servers. You can dig deep into the packet payload and do all kinds of things based on what you find there including session redirections. For example you are streaming a video, the streaming server you are on fails. No problem transparently redirect the user to another server, set up the session, and the user is none the wiser. You can even do all kind of sneaky things if you wanted. The ISP could if they wanted transparently cache every streaming audio and video coming in to their network then insert their own commercials into the stream every 5 minutes,. ISPs used to do this exact thing with web pages. They would throw up ads while you surfed that didn't come from the website you are on. They have even used this to make network announcements, and could in theory use this idea for weather alerts, national emergency announcements, and amber alerts. Corporations have blocked java scripts on web pages, and all kinds of other things. If you can think of a way to alter or mess with TCP/IP traffic it can be done and probably already has been done.

    155. Re:What a suprise by protektor · · Score: 1

      The ISP doesn't have to know what the payload is of the TCP/IP traffic of Skype. There is plenty of other information that is generated that they can use to traffic shape, reroute do what ever they want to do with that TCP/IP packet including dropping it on the floor if they wanted. How do you think school block BitTorrent? They break open the TCP/IP packets and look to see what is in there and what application created the packet then apply their rules to that packet. This isn't rocket science for ISPs and they have been doing it for years.

    156. Re:What a suprise by rtb61 · · Score: 1

      The Republicans are already talking about de-funding the FCC, basically running them into bankruptcy if they try to enforce net neutrality. So the big miss was getting it into law, now it is just a matter of politicians bankrupting a government agency if the agency attempt to uphold the law against the wishes of corporate interests.

      Besides let's work the the car analogy and the opposite of net neutrality, net economic freedom. If you can pay more for your drivers licence and registration why shouldn't you be able to drive faster. So the average drivers licence and registration pays for the average speed, so the current base fee for drivers licence and rego should only get you base speed, say 20 mph in the slow lane and you always have to give way to higher licensed and registered traffic.

      You could even have an entry level where you can only drive to subsidised location, like your employer (if they are willing to pay) or the supermarket (if they pay), every where else you need to catch a specially licensed taxi but the basic access still gains you access to the footpath (excluding pedestrian crossings you have to pay to use those after all you are obstructing a full fee paying driver). As for the rich, why not open slather access, when it comes to crashes it is never their fault and they always get access. As for public transport that's a socialist plot, if you can only afford minimum you should be made to walk.

      You should easily be able to see the substantial opportunities for profit in the scheme, especially when drivers licences and registration are privatised and, where would the Ferengi 'er' Conservatives be without profit.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    157. Re:What a suprise by commodore64_love · · Score: 0

      >>> (tinkle tinkle swish) YES. (tinkle tinkle swish)

      Hello Kosh. Or is it Ulkosh the second? I get confused. ----- Wasn't the FCC Chair appointed by the Democrat president? Why would he sell-out to the megacorps, and why isn't Obama putting pressure on his employee to write REAL neutrality without loopholes.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    158. Re:What a suprise by Richard_at_work · · Score: 1

      Currently, packets get dropped wherever the backlog builds up to the point where timeouts exceed queue clearing time, which starts at the ISP end of the ADSL line and gradually works its way back through the ISPs infrastructure and across the transit providers infrastructures depending on how large the DDoS is.

      And currently, once an attack is identified, the ISPs work together to drop the packets deliberately at the point where it would make the most difference, and then work back from that (so they would drop the packets on the other side of the choke points, where they would get the most traffic in one hit, and then eliminate the remaining in smaller and smaller efforts).

      However, the rule in question would forbid the ISPs from doing this, since they are not allowed to discriminate at any time or for any reason, so they have to allow the DDoS traffic through.

      Allowing the ADSL user to switch IPs solves the issue for the user, but it doesn't solve the issue for the ISP - they still have to handle all that traffic, they cannot block it due to the rule, and that will affect their infrastructure for the duration.

      And that is why the rule as given is broken - it is uncompromising to the point where that position can easily cause harm.

    159. Re:What a suprise by badkarmadayaccount · · Score: 1

      No they shouldn't, they should provide a mechanism for the other hosts to block traffic from the node on the node side of the connection. Filtered to control traffic to just 1 domain - the domain in question.

      --
      I know tobacco is bad for you, so I smoke weed with crack.
    160. Re:What a suprise by theshowmecanuck · · Score: 1

      Yes, you need a good medical system; it provides a healthy workforce and a basic human right. Yes you need paid vacation for the same reasons. But Europe has gone way too far in that direction. It is costing the countries there far too much. So much so that any sort of economic problems bankrupts some of their economies. It also makes it less profitable to do business there since the people don't have as much money to spend since they are paying more into social programs and less into their own bank accounts. And if you are taxed too highly, there is less incentive to try harder to advance yourself since it doesn't pay off. I don't like the corporate excesses that are going on in America, but I do know they have their place in helping people earn a buck (but they have turned more into a Mr. Hyde than their former Dr. Jekyll).

      --
      -- I ignore anonymous replies to my comments and postings.
    161. Re:What a suprise by stdarg · · Score: 1

      However, the rule in question would forbid the ISPs from doing this, since they are not allowed to discriminate at any time or for any reason, so they have to allow the DDoS traffic through.

      I'd say the rule in question would not allow the ISP to unilaterally decide to cut off DDoS traffic to one user, but if the user directs them to stop the traffic then it's fine. Net neutrality is about who makes decisions on traffic, not whether decisions are allowed to be made.

      Your idea that the decision to cut off a DDoS should be made by your ISP and not you is almost exactly like the ISP having the authority to say "We don't like you using all your bandwidth to stream Netflix movies so we're throttling you" or even more similarly "Too many people are streaming Netflix, it's interfering with our other customers, so we're blocking Netflix."

      Simply putting the decision about what to block in the hands of the user alleviates both problems completely with no ill side-effects.

      Allowing the ADSL user to switch IPs solves the issue for the user, but it doesn't solve the issue for the ISP - they still have to handle all that traffic, they cannot block it due to the rule, and that will affect their infrastructure for the duration.

      How is dropping undeliverable traffic (to an unused IP address) violating the rule? I think you're interpreting it a little too harshly. Do you also think net neutrality means ISPs can't terminate your account due to ignoring your bills and not paying for service, because the bits must continue flowing in all cases?

    162. Re:What a suprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      (tinkle tinkle swish)

      I don't get it. Please explain yourself or risk a troll mod. If you choose to not explain yourself, don't come crying about "unfair" moderation, because I gave you a chance to explain.

    163. Re:What a suprise by yapplejax · · Score: 1

      I'm hoping for research into (I forgot what they're called) "honeycomb" networks that are basically internets without a backbone. Sort of an amateur radio internet. I don't really care if I can stream video. I just want to be sure I can get wikileaks and Slashdot.

      Mesh. Mesh networks. Basically, your personal device becomes a node and a router. Traffic is distributed and routed by the members of the network itself.

    164. Re:What a suprise by Richard_at_work · · Score: 1

      When the DDoS affects more than the single user, you can bet your arse I support the decision of an ISP over that of an end user - in the case I give above, there is absolutely no chance of an end user on ADSL from being able to handle 10GB/sec, but that sort of abnormal traffic can have a negative effect on the ISP, so what happens when the end user either doesn't care or simply doesn't notice (because they are away for example)? Does the ISP have to bear the brunt? Because thats what the rule states....

      I'm not interpreting the rule harshly, I'm interpreting it as it is written - the ISP cannot make decisions based on the traffic, it has to make a best effort to deliver it. If the IP is unused, then I would allow for the interpretation that its not meant to be delivered to a subscriber and thus can be dropped at a boundary (according to the written rule), but when the IP is in use...?

      I also disagree with your comment about billing issues - net neutrality would only apply to the service, if the service is no longer being paid for then the service doesn't have to be offered - net neutrality doesn't get a look in. Even thus so, based on the rule mentioned earlier, the decision to cease service would not be based on the traffic and thus would not fall foul of the rule.

      I think you are misinterpreting the posts here as being against net neutrality - they aren't. They are demonstrating that simple one line catch all rules are stupid and unworkable without extensive clarification, exclusions and clauses. One line catch all rules rapidly result in negative unintended consequences.

    165. Re:What a suprise by Richard_at_work · · Score: 1

      I'd say the rule in question would not allow the ISP to unilaterally decide to cut off DDoS traffic to one user, but if the user directs them to stop the traffic then it's fine. Net neutrality is about who makes decisions on traffic, not whether decisions are allowed to be made.

      Also, what happens if one member of Anonymous decides to play the sacrificial goat and say "We all hate Comcast, DDoS me! Theres nothing they can do to prevent it!" and never take any mitigating action? Are you seriously saying that Comcast should have no ability to act in such a case?

      If you take the ability to make such a decision out of the hands of the service provider, then you most certainly put them in a dangerous position.

      Again, a nice demonstration of the inability for "simple" one line rules to deal effectively with the reality of the situation.

    166. Re:What a suprise by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      Throttling to the lowest level of bandwidth to make it basically unusable isn't the same as blocking.

      No, its not blocking.

      If you are doing it to services that compete with your services, or those that compete with people that are paying you extra money for special treatment, or just doing it to discriminate among lawful uses of the internet outside of the definition of "reasonable network management" in the Report and Order, its "unreasonable discrimination."

      The Report and Order prohibits, separately, both blocking (Rule 2) and unreasonable discrimination (Rule 3).

      Based on what I have read of the order they absolutely can throttle down other traffic without breaking these new rules.

      I'd like to see a coherent argument as to how it is possible to do so consistent with Rule 3, particularly for services that compete with services provided the the ISP, their affiliates, or those paying them to provide service, in light of the discussion in the section addressing paid prioritization in the context of Rule 3.

      They don't have to block traffic to get the same/similar end results as blocking.

      Hence Rule 3.

      Throttling all non-local SIP/VOIP traffic down to 2k/sec would be legal.

      At least if the provider itself was providing telephony services over the same network, it would be a clear violation of Rule 3 and, particularly, the discussion in the article of how Rule 3 applies to prioritization of paid traffic or the provider's own services over competing alternatives.

      Even if the provider didn't provide such services, categorical discrimination by type of service would seem to be a presumptive violation of Rule 3, and it would seem to be very hard to place such categorical discrimination within the realm of reasonable network management as defined in the order.

      This is worse than if they had done nothing at all. Instead of having isolated cases like "Comcast and BitTorrent" and "Comcast and Level 3/Netflix", now every backbone provider and ISP can legally do the same thing

      Insofar as it was legal before, every provider could legally do it. So it couldn't be "worse than if they had done nothing". At worst, if the practice was allowed by the current order, it would be exactly the same as if they had done nothing.

      But since the new order fairly specifically addresses this kind of discrimination, I don't think even that is right.

    167. Re:What a suprise by stdarg · · Score: 1

      I see what you're saying now.

      I would say in the interests of the greater good, no -- Comcast or some other ISP should not be allowed to do anything. You're getting into a very sticky and uncommon situation and as they say, hard cases make bad law.

      Anyway, even if a handful of end-users were sacrificial goats as you say, what is stopping Comcast from disconnecting them entirely and saying they went way over general resource usage limits?

      Net neutrality doesn't say that you get unlimited bandwidth and unlimited service with no consequences. It just means if you get 100GB/month, Comcast doesn't get a say in how you use those 100GB/month. If you want to waste them receiving garbage data from your friends, great. Then after 100GB is up, you're done.

    168. Re:What a suprise by LINM · · Score: 1

      This is all pretty dumm IMHO. There industry has self-policed pretty well today. Additionally, broadband delivery is becoming increasingly competitive (FTTH, Wimax, cable, fast copper, city wifi, etc., DSL). No it is very dumb.

      All this regulation is around protecting future changes that might happen to the internet. The reality is that the FCC should not even be empowered to interfere with the internet (their previous attempt was barred from the courts).

      If substantial problems do start to pop up (IF), then congress should legislate something to fix it. That day has not come

      --

      Hunger is the best sauce.

    169. Re:What a suprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "one month summer vacations and free daycare"

      yeah... this is NOT the cause of any economic problems. It's tiny, tiny money compared to other things, like corporate bailouts etc.

      And no, we should not cut back on payed vacation. 5 weeks is too little, not too much. We don't live to work, we work be able to live. The goal should be LESS work now that we are able to automate more and more. This would be perfectly possible if we just cut back on the corporate welfare instead of citizen welfare.

      That is not happening because corporations have much more influence over the politics then citizens do. When you are getting essentially robbed by companies, the answer is not to bend over and take some more.

    170. Re:What a suprise by divisionbyzero · · Score: 1

      Would that prevent a network from blocking DDOS traffic to a hosted server on its network?

      No.

      Putting a cap on how many communications are sent to a destination is not discrimination. So, yes, a network can block a DDOS attack. Unless that DDOS somehow consists of no more data or signals than normal use of the site, which would indicate a DDOS that is triggering a bug on the site's server and should be fixed by the site themselves.

      Next wild attempt to make NN sound bad, please...

      Hey, get off your high horse I'm not trying to make NN look bad. I'm poking holes in the parent's definition of NN. By specifically calling out endpoints he's making the definition needlessly complex. And your response doesn't address the issue. It just makes the definition of "discrimination" the issue.

      Next presumptuous inadequate response, please...

    171. Re:What a suprise by SydShamino · · Score: 1

      Sure, they'd happily discriminate against all streaming internet video.

      Meanwhile, they offer cable service on the same wire, but that's *not* internet video and isn't subject to net neutrality rules at all.

      Most cable companies would be happy to return to 1997's internet.

      --
      It doesn't hurt to be nice.
    172. Re:What a suprise by shnull · · Score: 0

      no, i've been hiding in the shadows

      --
      beware he who denies you access to information for in his mind, he already deems himself to be your master (SMAC-ish)
    173. Re:What a suprise by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      >>>>>>> (tinkle tinkle swish) YES. (tinkle tinkle swish)

      >>>>>Hello Kosh.

      >>Explain yourself or risk a troll mod. If you choose to not explain yourself, don't come crying about "unfair" moderation, because I gave you a chance to explain.

      Wow. What a jackass!

      It's a JOKE you stupid smeg for brains. (And that's a Red Dwarf reference your Eminence Stupidity.) Whenever Babylon 5's Kosh appears on the scene, he is accompanied by a sound resembling "tinkle tinkle swish". Don't get your panties in a knot, and frankly that's a really stupid reason to mod me down, since I was trying to by amusing.

      So you admit here that you modded me down just because you didn't "get" a joke.
      What a father fcucking son of a bitch. You should be banned from being a moderator, since you are clearly abusing your power.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    174. Re:What a suprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow. What a jackass! [...] So you admit here that you modded me down just because you didn't "get" a joke.

      Now you see, this is what we're all talking about by "you can't even see the troll in your own posts".

      You, a known troll, put words into another person's mouth which made it sound as if they were doing something with their dick. And despite my generously giving you, a known troll, a chance to explain yourself, I'm the jackass.

      I'm not even the moderator. Tell me, were you just going to ignore my post if someone else hadn't come along and downmodded you?

    175. Re:What a suprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      (And that's a Red Dwarf reference your Eminence Stupidity.)

      No, it's not. In context it could pass as a Red Dwarf reference. But calling someone a "smeg for brains" out of the blue like that is troll, plain and simple. Or maybe flamebait.
       

      I was trying to by amusing.

      Unfortunately, you failed. Might I suggest you hold off on trying to make jokes until you manage to clean up your trollish image?

    176. Re:What a suprise by honkycat · · Score: 1

      Give your specific definition for "emergency services" that qualify and I'm sure we can find a way to slip some things through it that weren't meant to be included. A loophole arises from a mismatch between the intended scope of the exception and the precise meaning of the words with which it's described.

      However, this is tangential to my point which is that the exceptions that are necessary for the law to be practical need to be in place before the law is enacted. The loopholes that arise from the exceptions will do so whether you make the rule ahead or amend it later. Counting on the service providers to break the law to provide emergency services with priority while the political process works on the later legislation is silly.

    177. Re:What a suprise by spitzak · · Score: 1

      I don't think you need a T1 connection to make a 911 call. The "guaranteed" minimum is VERY VERY TINY and has nothing to do with providing useful internet service. Thanks for showing how knee-jerk stupid the opponents of it are.

    178. Re:What a suprise by mldi · · Score: 1

      Counting on the service providers to break the law to provide emergency services with priority while the political process works on the later legislation is silly.

      Kinda like "Let's pass this bill so we can find out what's in it", right? ;)

      --
      If you aren't suspicious of your government's actions, you aren't doing your job as a responsible citizen.
  2. Pitchforks by AndyAndyAndyAndy · · Score: 2

    Before we get all burn-the-town-ey... why did this happen? Who, if anyone, could have stopped it? What's our next move?

    --
    It's always confirmation bias!
    1. Re:Pitchforks by Pojut · · Score: 5, Insightful

      No clue. yesterday, I was advocating Net Neutrality in a discussion here on Slashdot, and I continue to advocate for it. What the FCC is showing here, however, is not what I and other like-minded folks are advocating. I think the first post has it right...money runs things.

      PS: Sincere apologies to those who told me to read up yesterday...now that I have, I can see why you're calling bullshit. Please note that my support of Net Neutrality stands, but not this version of it.

    2. Re:Pitchforks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Before we get all burn-the-town-ey... why did this happen? Who, if anyone, could have stopped it? What's our next move?

      >why did this happen?
      Because it doesn't matter who you vote for, the lobbyists are still the ones with the power.

      >Who, if anyone, could have stopped it?
      The ISPs, if they felt like it - which they didn't and wouldn't have.

      >What's our next move?
      over 9000 proxies

    3. Re:Pitchforks by seepho · · Score: 2

      The time for us to get behind Net Neutrality ended six months ago. Now there's nothing left to do but watch the world burn.

    4. Re:Pitchforks by snookerhog · · Score: 2

      What's our next move?

      clearly boycotting the internet is our next move. I plan on starting right after this post...

    5. Re:Pitchforks by oic0 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Next move is the pitchforks and fire... Or we could just smile and take it as we are sold out again.

    6. Re:Pitchforks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Burn down the FCC? They're clearly only protecting one constituency and it's not consumers.

    7. Re:Pitchforks by Twinbee · · Score: 1

      What are the different types then, and which version of it should we want?

      --
      Why OpalCalc is the best Windows calc
    8. Re:Pitchforks by Pojut · · Score: 5, Informative

      The "all packets must be treated equally, no exceptions" version. You know...what Net Neutrality actually means.

    9. Re:Pitchforks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Those ICMP packets can go stuff themselves. Always chatting away with nothing really important to say. /packet bigot

    10. Re:Pitchforks by lazn · · Score: 1

      It happened because we weren't ready to burn the town over it.
      If we made it a political issue that politicians must take a stand on something might have been done. (vote this way, or we won't vote for you next time)

      Obviously our next move is to burn the town.

    11. Re:Pitchforks by khr · · Score: 5, Funny

      Some packets are more equal than others.

    12. Re:Pitchforks by countertrolling · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Two words... Dumb pipe... That's what we're supposed to be demanding here.

      --
      For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
    13. Re:Pitchforks by BobMcD · · Score: 0

      The "all packets must be treated equally, no exceptions" version. You know...what Net Neutrality actually means.

      I'd shudder to see what the pricetag for such a data plan would be on AT&T's wireless network, for example. You can run your own VoIP, for example, and not use their phone services? Data prices would have to go up to compensate. That's the way the world works, as far as I know...

      Take it all the way to the extreme and FORCE them to provide whatever you want at a mandated low price and then you'll get the most craptastic service you've ever imagined.

      Unless we're ready to federalize the entire thing, there's no expectation that we can have whatever we want without paying for it.

    14. Re:Pitchforks by JWW · · Score: 2

      I think the words you're looking for are

      Common Carrier

    15. Re:Pitchforks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      As soon as e911 was allowed by VOIP, this concept died.

      You cannot drop a 911 call because there's a particularly intense Halo deathmatch going on, or your neighbor is streaming Harry Potter in HD.

    16. Re:Pitchforks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem is that unless you're paying for a lobbyist you're not going to get that. Something that's more attainable would be to promote and foster competition in the broadband space. If there are 4 or 5 providers in an area and one starts treating some packets differently (not just for QoS purposes...real throttling) then people that really care have a place to go and can vote with their money.

    17. Re:Pitchforks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, that's definitely the way things work overseas... oh wait.

    18. Re:Pitchforks by spun · · Score: 3, Insightful

      We could at least have low priced, fast, and fair service like most of the rest of the first world has. How about, oh I don't know, instead of charging us more, they reduce their profits to a fair and reasonable level? Why is it always the little guy who has to tighten his belt?

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    19. Re:Pitchforks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This _hasn't_ happened yet, but that huffpost writer is pretty sure we're screwed. We probably are. The discussion and vote is happening RIGHT NOW.

      FCC stream: http://www.savetheinternet.com/FCCmeeting
      C-Span stream: http://cspan.org/Events/FCC-Considers-Adopting-Net-Neutrality/10737418370-1/

    20. Re:Pitchforks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Take it all the way to the extreme and FORCE them to provide whatever you want at a mandated low price and then you'll get the most craptastic service you've ever imagined.

      I never thought of things this way, but it has an innate truth to it that's both hilarious and depressing.

    21. Re:Pitchforks by MozeeToby · · Score: 2

      That's not the version that I would push for personally. The quintessential example is trading latency for bandwidth. VoIP doesn't require much bandwidth, but needs as low latency as possible to function properly. Bit Torrent is the opposite, you could have 10 second latency values and get basically the same quality of service as if you had 10 ms, so long as the bandwidth is high. In an ideal world maybe every service would have access to low latency and high bandwidth pipe, but you can get much better perceived performance out of the same equipment by correctly handling different services differently.

      As I understood it, net neutrality means all packets of the same type are treated equally, regardless of the source and destination. Video has to be treated the same, whether it's coming from one of the ISP's servers or Netflix. Audio has to be treated the same whether it's the ISP's VoIP server or Ventrillo. Bulk data has to be the same whether it's coming from a corporate FTP site or a peer.

    22. Re:Pitchforks by Pojut · · Score: 1

      That'd be unAmurrickan! Redistributing wealth like that...are you with the terrorists? ARE YOU??? HUH??????

    23. Re:Pitchforks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why not just let the price go up? Nobody's asking for it to be free or cheap, just Free.

    24. Re:Pitchforks by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      Sincere apologies to those who told me to read up yesterday...now that I have, I can see why you're calling bullshit. Please note that my support of Net Neutrality stands, but not this version of it.

      Same here, I didn't realize the current "net neutrality" legislation being proposed was net neutrality in name only.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    25. Re:Pitchforks by scubamage · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The people of the USA could have stopped it if they were actually interested in performing their civic duty and not just in bread and circuses. Our political obligations don't end with voting. Do you seriously think that any anti-net neutrality legislation would be rubber-stamped if even 1000 people gathered outside of the capital and refused to leave until their voices were heard? 10,000? 100,000? A million? The country is a fading empire; history is repeating itself, and the country will fade just like Rome did.

    26. Re:Pitchforks by Pojut · · Score: 2

      You know what's scary? I'm just kidding with this response, but there are people out there who would have responded to you that way, and actually meant it. ::shudder::

    27. Re:Pitchforks by maxume · · Score: 1

      Sprint is offering unlimited data for about $40 a month (that's with their Virgin Mobile brand, which has somewhat limited coverage because it only works on Sprint towers, but it is for a computer hookup, not a phone), so in lots of places, AT&T would have trouble charging a huge amount more than that.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    28. Re:Pitchforks by BobMcD · · Score: 1

      European and Asian markets are nothing like those in the US in terms of geography nor density.

      Try again...

    29. Re:Pitchforks by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      I'd shudder to see what the pricetag for such a data plan would be on AT&T's wireless network, for example. You can run your own VoIP, for example, and not use their phone services? Data prices would have to go up to compensate. That's the way the world works, as far as I know...

      True, but I hope either competition or government intervention would kick in at some point and restore sanity. Our current phone system is an antiquated relic being propped up by the telcos because it's very profitable for them.

      We need to switch to SIP. Phone "numbers" and phone calls would be as free as email addresses and email.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    30. Re:Pitchforks by Monkeedude1212 · · Score: 1

      But then you get a whole sticky mess on how to treat things with equality.

      For years the HTTP packets have acted as an elitist class that utilizes the ARP packets like slaves, and to a lesser extent the DNS packets as house servants.

      Now that change is a comin' on this tidal wave of equality and packetarian efforts - we need to learn from past mistakes how to properly handle the situation. Obviously, reparations should be made for those packets who suffered some form of abuse. I mean, it gets pretty bad sometimes. Sometimes a packet can't even get a simple ACK. It gets ignored. And that's a slippery slope, because soon those non-ACK'd packets fall into the wrong crowd, start some packet gang violence, and eventually get dropped by some new up and coming packet who is packing some heat.

      And we obviously don't want to over-do it either. Start treating one packet more "fairly" than another, for the mistreatment of that packets ancestors, well its like making some packets pay for a crime they didn't commit. It wouldn't be neutral at all. Next thing you know we got strong arm Feminist Packets, some packets shouting "DATA POWER" and a whole bunch of social instability on the net, which is bad enough as it is.

      I mean, we've all got a set TTL, the most we can do is try and make sure most packets are happy for as many hops as possible.

      If you've got a perfect solution to Net Neutrality, lets hear it.

    31. Re:Pitchforks by BobMcD · · Score: 1

      Because the little guy isn't brave enough to launch his own AT&T.

    32. Re:Pitchforks by BobMcD · · Score: 1

      Why not just let the price go up? Nobody's asking for it to be free or cheap, just Free.

      Because we already pay the highest prices in the world.

    33. Re:Pitchforks by BobMcD · · Score: 1

      But they can do this off the back of their other profitable business modes. You're talking about killing those by law.

    34. Re:Pitchforks by Pojut · · Score: 1

      That would explain why we don't have 30MBps everywhere in the flyover states, but that doesn't explain why we have (comparatively) asstastic service in our major cities.

    35. Re:Pitchforks by CreatureComfort · · Score: 2

      A hundred years from now we'll be talking about paying reparations to packets that were discriminated against.

      --
      "Unheard of means only it's undreamed of yet,
      Impossible means not yet done." ~~ Julia Ecklar
    36. Re:Pitchforks by Bill_the_Engineer · · Score: 1

      I'd shudder to see what the pricetag for such a data plan would be on AT&T's wireless network, for example. You can run your own VoIP, for example, and not use their phone services? Data prices would have to go up to compensate. That's the way the world works, as far as I know...

      Not true. They don't have to give you the fastest possible speed, and they shouldn't prioritize your packets based on the fact that you are not using one of their preferred services.

      Your premise assumes unlimited bandwidth, which isn't part of the net neutrality argument. The idea behind net neutrality is that you should be able to use the full extent of that bandwidth that you purchased regardless of what the packets contain.

      --
      These comments are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of my employer or colleagues...
    37. Re:Pitchforks by cdrguru · · Score: 1

      If you are asking for the Department of Justice to open a new branch called "Fair Profit and Revenue Board" with real penalties attached to violations I think you are one teensy step from the Soviet command economy.

      Putting such a thing under SEC wouldn't do a thing - SEC doesn't close companies down and jail violators, they fine them miniscule amounts. You don't get any real results without it being under DoJ.

      It might have to be a new cabinet level department because you would probably need a full-time accountant for every 10 companies. To be really effective you would have to have this for every company operating in the USA, not just those based in the USA. Otherwise the loophole of choice would be to move the company to a PO Box in the Cayman Islands.

      At that point I guess they could have their own prisons which, likely as not, would be quite full. Have to show people they mean business, right?

      Nope, sorry. Not going to happen. Profits aren't going to be judged from the outside, ever. Might as well get used to that.

    38. Re:Pitchforks by maxume · · Score: 1

      Their 4g data is also unlimited at $60, I don't think they are subsidizing that with their voice systems (They are probably investing voice profits into that network, but they aren't building the 4g network for voice traffic...).

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    39. Re:Pitchforks by BobMcD · · Score: 1

      We need to switch to SIP. Phone "numbers" and phone calls would be as free as email addresses and email.

      So now we picture a world where phone calls are along the same quality lines as email:

      1) May or may not get there, ever
      2) Spam
      3) Google listens to all your calls
      etc

    40. Re:Pitchforks by sorak · · Score: 1

      Some packets are more equal than others.

      Yes. Those filled with cash will buy your visitors a faster connection.

    41. Re:Pitchforks by BobMcD · · Score: 1

      That would explain why we don't have 30MBps everywhere in the flyover states, but that doesn't explain why we have (comparatively) asstastic service in our major cities.

      Sure it does. The decisions, laws, and dozens of other factors are made at a national level. You'll get variations in service to a degree, but you're not going to see Sprint run one kind of network for New York City and a completely different one for Albany. That would be a logistical nightmare.

    42. Re:Pitchforks by s73v3r · · Score: 1

      No, that argument is pretty worthless. If it had any shred of credibility, then our urban areas would be shining bastions of broadband connectivity, rivaling those of Europe and Asia. Not to mention, most Scandinavian countries have a lower density than we do, and the people out in the sticks there still get decent broadband.

    43. Re:Pitchforks by s73v3r · · Score: 1

      You mean doesn't have the deep pockets? Tearing up roads is fucking expensive, as are ISP grade switches.

    44. Re:Pitchforks by Itchyeyes · · Score: 1

      Bravery has nothing to do with it. The telcom and cable inustries are incredibly insular markets with massive barriers to entry. In the case of ground lines, most municipalities only grant rights of way to the local telco and cable co. It's actually illegal in most major population centers for the "little guy" to lay a network. In the case of wireless spectrum, the government only distributes spectrum at public auctions. In the most recent auction (for the 700mhz band), Verizon won most of the spectrum by spending nearly $10 billion. Not much room for the little guy there either. Make no mistake, these are not competitive markets. And the entrenched companies that operate in these markets will spend ungodly amounts of money influencing our political process to make sure that they stay that way.

    45. Re:Pitchforks by BobMcD · · Score: 1

      Your premise assumes unlimited bandwidth, which isn't part of the net neutrality argument. The idea behind net neutrality is that you should be able to use the full extent of that bandwidth that you purchased regardless of what the packets contain.

      But that isn't the bandwidth you purchased. Again, in AT&T's example, you're riding along the 'extra' bandwidth for their already-IP Proprietary/SIP/what-have-you network. Had they known you were going to run your own telco over it they would have presented you with an entirely different contract.

    46. Re:Pitchforks by sorak · · Score: 1

      Two words... Dumb pipe... That's what we're supposed to be demanding here.

      And I can't help but throw in a little "you're just the mail man. You didn't create the content. You don't own the content. You're just delivering it, so stop trying to charge extra based on what's in the envelope....

    47. Re:Pitchforks by s73v3r · · Score: 1

      How about we just fine those fuckers and make them pay back the money they were given (plus interest) back in the day to wire us up with 45 Mbps fiber to the home? Then take that money, give it to states and municipalities to lay municipal networks, and lease those lines out to whoever wants to offer services on them.

    48. Re:Pitchforks by s73v3r · · Score: 1

      $20 says "unlimited" actually means 5 GB or less.

    49. Re:Pitchforks by tunapez · · Score: 1

      Welcome to the United Corporations of America.

      Land of the Fee.

      --
      Imagination drew in bold strokes, instantly serving hopes and fears, while knowledge advanced by slow increments...
    50. Re:Pitchforks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's called 'regulation', which we've successfully demonized in the US. Nevermind that properly regulated electric grids have provided power at cost plus a 10% profit margin, to the benefit of all. We could do the same with internet.

    51. Re:Pitchforks by Captain+Hook · · Score: 1

      Do you seriously think that any anti-net neutrality legislation would be rubber-stamped if even 1000 people gathered outside of the capital and refused to leave until their voices were heard? 10,000? 100,000? A million?

      I'm not a USian, but based on our UK goverments approach to demostrations, peaceful or violent rioting. Yes, Yes I do.

      If you're peaceful you are easy to ignore, if you are violent you have to be ignored because otherwise the government is seen to negioated with violent protestors which will just encourage more violence in future. Nice little Catch-22.

      --
      These comments are my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the other voices in my head.
    52. Re:Pitchforks by BobMcD · · Score: 1

      Their 4g data is also unlimited at $60, I don't think they are subsidizing that with their voice systems (They are probably investing voice profits into that network, but they aren't building the 4g network for voice traffic...).

      Ah, but their 4g is in what - 20 cities? Could well be an introductory rate or some other scenario that changes prior to going nationwide.

      Now, to be fair, I genuinely hope this is NOT the case. I'd love to see those 6mbps hockey pucks available everywhere. It would simultaneously cause the wired carriers to step things up a notch AND shut up a lot of the 'monopoly whiners' as I call them.

    53. Re:Pitchforks by BobMcD · · Score: 1

      I didn't say it was easy, but I do specifically rebut the notion that the corporations are all made up of magical people with superhuman powers which cannot be rivaled by mortal man.

    54. Re:Pitchforks by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      Virgin Mobile is offering unlimited data for $25, actually. (On tetherable Android phones, at least; I don't know about stand-alone modems.) The $40/month plan just gives you 1200 minutes (instead of 300) along with that unlimited data.

      Also, is Virgin Mobile actually owned by Sprint, or does it just contract with Sprint to use the same network?

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    55. Re:Pitchforks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      We have a winner. In Europe, there are different priorities than here in the US.

      In the US, its maximum profit while minimizing service. There its maximize service while maximizing profit. In other words, in the US, get as much as you can while providing as little as possible. In Europe its provide the most you can reasonably provide was maximizing profits, as much as you reasonably can; because you must compete.

      The distinction is typically a natural fall out of actually allowing competition. In Europe, companies are forced to compete which means level of service is always a critical element for each given price point. Whereas in the US, the price point is not only determined by the politicians you've bought, but so is the defensibility of an inferior service/product at that same price point.

      Much of Europe has an incentive to innovate and compete. Most of the US has absolutely no inceptive to compete whatsoever. In fact, they are incentivise to spend monies they could otherwise use to compete, to pay for politicians, so as to maintain the status quo.

    56. Re:Pitchforks by countzerobah · · Score: 1

      No clue. yesterday, I was advocating Net Neutrality in a discussion here on Slashdot, and I continue to advocate for it. What the FCC is showing here, however, is not what I and other like-minded folks are advocating. I think the first post has it right...money runs things.

      PS: Sincere apologies to those who told me to read up yesterday...now that I have, I can see why you're calling bullshit. Please note that my support of Net Neutrality stands, but not this version of it.

      Agreed this is a BS compromise. I already give too much money for internet my car payments are less than my internet bills combined for cell phones and cable internet. These companies are really NOT spending that much money compared to the money they make on the services they over charge for.

    57. Re:Pitchforks by BobMcD · · Score: 1

      If it had any shred of credibility, then our urban areas would be shining bastions of broadband connectivity, rivaling those of Europe and Asia.

      That's assuming that the business units here in the States act as independently as they do overseas. They don't.

    58. Re:Pitchforks by MichaelKristopeit300 · · Score: 1
      if you are concerned about "versions" of ideologies, perhaps you should cease your continued use of their hypocritically designed terminology.

      neither "side" of "net neutrality" is advocating a truly neutral position. it's ignorant hyperbolic rhetoric.

      what are you truly an advocate of? deep packet inspection based throttling? national government run censorship?

    59. Re:Pitchforks by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      Before we get all burn-the-town-ey... why did this happen?

      Even that's getting ahead of the facts...what is "this"? TFA provides a lot of subjective flaws that supposedly exist in the plan that is being voted on, but doesn't provide any facts about the plan, or even link to any site that provides the details of the plan. Which is unsurprising, since the actual plan that is being voted on hasn't been published, nor has it leaked.

      Everyone on the internet, on both sides -- and both supporters and opponents of net neutrality are portraying the order as the end of the world -- is posting speculation based on the previously published draft and what changes they assume have been made to that draft.

      And, personally, I'd say that the opponents of real net neutrality probably have more reason to fear than the proponents, since the one swing vote on the FCC that was opposed to the last draft but has signed on to support the new order was holding out for doing more to protect consumers and less to please the telcos. We can be certain this won't be everything that proponents have wanted, but we don't actually know what it is. That, itself, is a valid reason for concern, but TFAs hyperventilation is entirely unwarranted in the complete absense of concrete facts.

    60. Re:Pitchforks by Bill_the_Engineer · · Score: 1

      But that isn't the bandwidth you purchased. Again, in AT&T's example, you're riding along the 'extra' bandwidth for their already-IP Proprietary/SIP/what-have-you network.

      They didn't sell me excess bandwidth. They sold me data access with an expectation of performance. I don't know what you are talking about. They spell it out in complete detail within their "Terms of Service"

      Had they known you were going to run your own telco over it they would have presented you with an entirely different contract.

      Lets look at AT&T Acceptable Use Policy:

      General Prohibitions: AT&T prohibits use of the IP Services in any way that is unlawful, harmful to or interferes with use of AT&T's network or systems, or the network of any other provider, interferes with the use or enjoyment of services received by others, infringes intellectual property rights, results in the publication of threatening or offensive material, or constitutes Spam/E-mail/Usenet abuse, a security risk or a violation of privacy.

      Failure to adhere to the rules, guidelines or agreements applicable to search engines, subscription Web services, chat areas, bulletin boards, Web pages, USENET, applications, or other services that are accessed via a link from the AT&T-branded website or from a website that contains AT&T-branded content is a violation of this AUP.

      I don't see it explicitly forbidden by their use policy. Let's say I did use a wireless data provider to operate my own VOIP operation (which seems very far fetched but I'm humoring you), if it did cause interference with their quality of service to other customers that same "Acceptable Use Policy" that was there at contract signing would still apply and ATT would have the right to deny me service.

      Again this has absolutely nothing to do with net neutrality. Net neutrality means that I could use ATT wireless data to make Skype calls (which is permissible now) not that I can use a consumer data plan to create a Skype like service. All arguments for net neutrality that I've seen is to guarantee the consumer's ability to consume data and doesn't guarantee the consumer's ability to operate a service using a typical consumer data contract.

      --
      These comments are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of my employer or colleagues...
    61. Re:Pitchforks by aztracker1 · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't go that far... all packets fo/from your client's endpoint should be treated equally.

      Though, different users should be allowed to be given priority based on tiering and use... if User A checks his email a few times a day, and User B seeds a few dozen heavy torrents, then User A's packets should probably come before User B, based on usage alone. Beyond that, for a given user, there shouldn't be a differentiation based on the protocol, if there's encryption in place, or who it's going to/from.

      --
      Michael J. Ryan - tracker1.info
    62. Re:Pitchforks by maxume · · Score: 1

      Wholly owned, as of a year or three ago (In the U.S., Sprint bought Virgin out and paid them for the use of the brand, I think Virgin still directly controls the branded companies in other countries).

      And I was referring to the usb stick modems and mifi plans. Does the single android phone they offer in the U.S. allow tethering out of the box?

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    63. Re:Pitchforks by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      The "all packets must be treated equally, no exceptions" version. You know...what Net Neutrality actually means.

      Except there has never been an agreement on what "net neutrality actually means", and certainly the "all packets must be treated equally, no exceptions" form has never been the focus of the public policy debate.

      The focus has always been more about whether and how to turn the FCC's open internet principles (articulated in 2005) into substantive rules. Those rules are:

      • consumers are entitled to access the lawful Internet content of their choice.
      • consumers are entitled to run applications and use services of their choice, subject to the needs of law enforcement.
      • consumers are entitled to connect their choice of legal devices that do not harm the network.
      • consumers are entitled to competition among network providers, application and service providers, and content providers.
    64. Re:Pitchforks by BobMcD · · Score: 1

      I don't see it explicitly forbidden by their use policy.

      It's right there:
      interferes with use of AT&T's network or systems

      If you're using more than they 'designed in' for you to use, then you're causing interference. Not that it is your fault, mind you, it is the designer's fault. But they do good things with the right to stop you from saturating their network, e.g. operate a voice service.

      Net neutrality, taken to the extreme, means the provider gets no say in the utilization of the stream. This is a great ideal to strive towards, but it would require a complete redesign of the infrastructure to accommodate it.

    65. Re:Pitchforks by Itchyeyes · · Score: 1

      I think we'll have to agree to disagree. I'd say in today's society, corporations might as well be superhuman. The laws are stacked in their favor. And the longer they remain that way, the more influence these companies have over stacking them even more in their favor.

      It's one of the classic failings of free market economics, recognized as far back as Adam Smith. Once it becomes more profitable for companies to influence laws in their favor than it is for them to invest in their product, every assumption we have about market economics goes out the door.

      Net neutrality was supposed to be a step to balancing a system that was already stacked in favor of entrenched companies, and they've managed to turn into essentially the exact opposite of that.

    66. Re:Pitchforks by maxume · · Score: 1

      It could be, but it seems a little crazy to charge less than it costs to provide (especially when the 4g service is something many people are going to use as their only data access, which means that they will care less about the coverage, as long as they can get it at home, so introductory pricing would snare a bunch of people that would just jump to DSL or whatever).

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    67. Re:Pitchforks by maxume · · Score: 1

      No, they say right in the terms that they won't rate limit you for high usage or such. The significant limitation is that it is for 'personal use':

      http://www.virginmobileusa.com/mobile-broadband/

      (click on plan details)

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    68. Re:Pitchforks by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      This happened because people who are in favor of net neutrality believed the government when it told them that it was going to regulate the Internet to ensure "net neutrality". People kept tryin to tell them that the government was not going to enforce what those individuals meant by "net nuetrality", but was instead going to start the process of regulating Internet content using the term "net neutrality" as cover. The supporters of net neutrality replied with "What's wrong with net neutrality?" This is what's wrong with "net neutrality". "Net neutrality" enforced by the government is never going to be what you mean by "net neutrality".

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    69. Re:Pitchforks by BobMcD · · Score: 1

      Yeah, we definitely disagree. The whole 'giant corporation' thing is a myth perpetuated to keep those corporations in power. Amazingly, it is usually ascribed to those who oppose corporations vehemently.

      Ever seen the movie The 13th Warrior? It's a lot like that.

    70. Re:Pitchforks by BobMcD · · Score: 1

      Well, there's some value to the claim 'best/biggest/most popular 4g network', so perhaps that makes up the gap you're seeing.

    71. Re:Pitchforks by Bill_the_Engineer · · Score: 1

      It's right there:
      interferes with use of AT&T's network or systems

      hence:

      I don't see it explicitly forbidden by their use policy. Let's say I did use a wireless data provider to operate my own VOIP operation (which seems very far fetched but I'm humoring you), if it did cause interference with their quality of service to other customers that same "Acceptable Use Policy" that was there at contract signing would still apply and ATT would have the right to deny me service.

      Next:

      Net neutrality, taken to the extreme, means the provider gets no say in the utilization of the stream. This is a great ideal to strive towards, but it would require a complete redesign of the infrastructure to accommodate it.

      Sigh. Your straw man is getting a little tattered.

      Again:

      ...this has absolutely nothing to do with net neutrality. Net neutrality means that I could use ATT wireless data to make Skype calls (which is permissible now) not that I can use a consumer data plan to create a Skype like service. All arguments for net neutrality that I've seen is to guarantee the consumer's ability to consume data and doesn't guarantee the consumer's ability to operate a service using a typical consumer data contract.

      --
      These comments are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of my employer or colleagues...
    72. Re:Pitchforks by Craig+Maloney · · Score: 1

      ... and home of the paid.

    73. Re:Pitchforks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Route them to different VLANS. Seperate but equal.

    74. Re:Pitchforks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Solution to this is rather than giving it a QoS flag, label it as 911, and everything gets routed to a 911 operator. Then you can give it top priority and people can't abuse it because it's called generic high priority.

    75. Re:Pitchforks by BobMcD · · Score: 1

      Well, then 'what you have seen' is limited. How is that a flaw in my argument, rather than your own?

      The position is in TFA:

      This move enshrines Verizon and AT&T as gatekeepers to the expanding world of mobile Internet access, allowing them to favor their own applications while blocking, degrading or de-prioritizing others.

      The article reads like this power means GPS software, but it also includes network-wrecking things like bit torrent. Again, I'd absolutely love to see a network so robust as you could do absolutely everything the marketing number says you can do. LOVE IT. That service, though, wouldn't be the ones the new laws/rules would govern.

    76. Re:Pitchforks by Itchyeyes · · Score: 1

      What do you mean "giant corporation thing"? Can you expand on that? I don't oppose all large corporations. I would argue that much of the anger against companies like Walmart and Enron is very misplaced.

      What I do oppose is corporations that exert an influence on our political and legal process that is disproportionate to their role in our society and economy (eg: Tyson foods, Comcast, and various members of the RIAA/MPAA). They use our legal process to distort their respective portions of our economy away from the competitive, positive-sum, mutually beneficial markets they should be, and towards entrenched, zero-sum games that disproportionately benefit themselves.

    77. Re:Pitchforks by Wannabe+Code+Monkey · · Score: 1

      The "all packets must be treated equally, no exceptions" version. You know...what Net Neutrality actually means.

      I, and I think you'll find, many others, don't actually mean this when they say net neutrality. I think it's okay if an ISP treats streaming archived video, streaming live video, streaming live audio, and downloading a file differently. Just as long as they don't treat streaming video from Netflix differently than they treat streaming video from Youtube. To me, net neutrality means not discriminating based on source or destination.

      For example, if I'm downloading a linux DVD image I don't care about lag very much, I just care that my average download speed is what my ISP advertises. But if I'm on a VOIP call, I care much more about low lag than total speed. If an ISP wants to regulate their network such that certain types of traffic are treated differently, that's okay with me. Just as long as they're completely open about it and they treat all packets of a certain type the exact say way, whether they're coming from some small start up or some giant media conglomerate.

      --
      We always knew Comcast was corrupt, here's the proof: http://tech.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1909890&cid=34545432
    78. Re:Pitchforks by BobMcD · · Score: 1

      How about, oh I don't know, instead of charging us more, they reduce their profits to a fair and reasonable level? Why is it always the little guy who has to tighten his belt?

      Not your words, but that was a decent expression of the sentiment that I was referring to...

    79. Re:Pitchforks by Curunir_wolf · · Score: 1

      Still think you have the right to free and open Internet? I've heard all sorts of naysayers claiming that Net Neutrality is no threat to small ISPs, content providers and consumers. They say the fears about Net Neutrality are unfounded and that the government can't possibly shut down your little website or control your access. They say this with the kind of smug certainty you might typically hear from an economist who thinks he knows everything about the global economy (but who actually knows nothing the activities of the Federal Reserve).

      These naysayers tend to operate out of an assumption that Big Government will never take away their rights and freedoms and that expanding the reach of agencies such as the TSA, FDA, DEA, FTC and FCC with even more power and more armed agents is a good thing because the government always takes care of the people. We need more protection from telecoms, they argue, so let's unleash 4,000 armed FCC agents instead to protect us from corporate cable and phone companies. (But who will protect us from the FCC?)

      What these ignorant naysayers don't understand is that government is constantly trying to expand its power to the point of tyranny. As a current example of this, look at what just happened with Chavez in Venezuela. He has now been granted what are essentially dictatorial powers over the country. Chavez is now the King of Venezuela, and whatever he says is now law. Venezuelan citizens are now slaves to his tyranny, and they must follow his orders or be executed.

      The United States is moving in precisely the same direction. First, power gets stripped away from the People little by little. Then it gets concentrated in the hands of a few regulatory agencies who write their own laws and who stay in power year after year because none of their officials are elected. (Think the FCC commissioner is elected by the people? Think again) And then, over time, a few powerful individuals concentrate power from those agencies into their own hands. Before long, the country is run by a handful of power-crazed tyrants who disregard all freedoms and rights of the People.

      --
      "Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
      --- Jerry Garcia
    80. Re:Pitchforks by Curunir_wolf · · Score: 1

      I think the words you're looking for are

      Common Carrier

      That is not what you want. A common carrier has to follow rules that allow for easy wiretapping by law enforcement at any time. That can only be implemented by banning any kind of encryption that allows private citizens or end-user business to maintain control of the keys. Sure, you can use encryption provided by your ISP or a public CA - as long as they have the keys or use an algorithm with an NSA "back door".

      --
      "Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
      --- Jerry Garcia
    81. Re:Pitchforks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Would you like to ship that Express, Priority or Media Mail rate? How soon do you want it there?

      The "mail man" decides which route the mail takes based on what you're willing to pay... you know, allowing people to pay premium rates for priority service, like some sites choosing to pay for better delivery than normal over your pipes.

    82. Re:Pitchforks by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      Does the single android phone they offer in the U.S. allow tethering out of the box?

      I haven't seen a menu option for it (I own one), but it's an Android phone, so it's hackable.

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    83. Re:Pitchforks by BlueStrat · · Score: 1

      No clue. yesterday, I was advocating Net Neutrality in a discussion here on Slashdot, and I continue to advocate for it. What the FCC is showing here, however, is not what I and other like-minded folks are advocating. I think the first post has it right...money runs things.

      PS: Sincere apologies to those who told me to read up yesterday...now that I have, I can see why you're calling bullshit. Please note that my support of Net Neutrality stands, but not this version of it.

      First, props to you Pojut, for being enough of a stand-up person and intellectually honest enough to admit publicly when you're wrong. We need people representing us in D.C. that are willing to do the same.

      As I've said/posted many times in regard to NN, most people like me who were against NN were against it precisely because we knew it would end badly and not really address the problems that it was supposedly created to correct/prevent (sending competing services' packets to QOS/routing/pingtime hell without protection money). It simply does not take umpteen-thousand pages of legislation or rulemaking/regulation to accomplish the purported goals.

      We've learned over the last few decades that anything they (either by Rs or Ds or both together) pass regarding practically any topic will be a tangled and lengthy monstrosity with practically everything including the kitchen sink thrown in (except for what they told us they wanted it for) and end up as not much more than power grabs, payoffs to political allies, and more paths through which to suck money from the people and restrict their freedoms.

      This kind of underhanded political crap is why many people feel that, on balance, the best thing that Congress can do for the people these days is nothing at all. That is also why I and many others cringe at the thought of the FCC granting itself power to regulate the internet at all in the first place. ISPs may be greedy, amoral bloodsuckers but government is all that *and* a bag of ACTA/DMCA/PATRIOT Act with guns, goons, taxation, and prisons.

      Strat

      --
      Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
    84. Re:Pitchforks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There was a really insightful post the last time this came up, that you should be aware of. It's not that Obama didn't want to make stronger rules, the telcos were threatening to take it to the republican-packed courts.

      These are quite probably the strongest rules we could have gotten.

    85. Re:Pitchforks by JamesP · · Score: 1

      So.. it IS a series of tubes then!

      --
      how long until /. fixes commenting on Chrome?
    86. Re:Pitchforks by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      1 and 2 are no different than today (I'd trust SIP over POTS, that's for sure), and 3 would only be a problem if you use Google as a SIP provider.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    87. Re:Pitchforks by deapbluesea · · Score: 1

      What the FCC is showing here, however, is not what I and other like-minded folks are advocating.

      Welcome to the dark side brother. I've been against government-mandated net neutrality since this conversation started only because I work for the government and I know that anything we attempt to do becomes tainted by politics, money, and bureaucracy. If you want to see changes, don't mess with getting laws written, that will almost always result in something hated by most. Instead, work to change the minds of society. It's longer, harder work, but if you have the majority of people demanding neutrality from the ISPs, then the ISPs will cater to that.

      As soon as you find yourself saying "There should be a law against this", you've probably gone the wrong direction.

      --
      Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master.
    88. Re:Pitchforks by jkxx · · Score: 1

      I had a hard time explaining this even here on slashdot - that ISPs would not need to resort to QoS if the last-mile pipes are big enough to accomodate everyone connected. Instead they are not, the ISPs are oversubscribing and we get this funny situation of some users getting totally nowhere when the network gets congested.

      I guess we can point out that people are now getting 30-100 Mbps in various countries while Comcast is still selling 3 Mbps service in much of the USA. It will at least show the alarming difference in the service here vs there. Oh wait... think that happened some time ago and was explained away by apologists.

      Really, what will it take to get "most" people to agree that the ISPs are charging way too much and providing way too little vs the rest of the developed world?

    89. Re:Pitchforks by Bill_the_Engineer · · Score: 1

      Well, then 'what you have seen' is limited. How is that a flaw in my argument, rather than your own?

      The reason being that your argument is based solely on the boogeyman, and the only scenario you presented was a fictional proposition of a consumer setting up a competing VOIP rather than being a user of a competing VOIP service.

      Furthermore the quote:

      This move enshrines Verizon and AT&T as gatekeepers to the expanding world of mobile Internet access, allowing them to favor their own applications while blocking, degrading or de-prioritizing others.

      Supports my argument that net neutrality has always been about the consumer's ability to visit a site like Netflix or Skype, and the reason everyone is disappointed with the horrible ruling that the FCC gave today is because it allows Comcast and ATT to favor their own offerings at the expense of others.

      Again this has nothing to do with operating a VOIP as you kept asserting.

      The article reads like this power means GPS software, but it also includes network-wrecking things like bit torrent.

      Now that you failed to win any points with your VOIP example, you've decided to bring out the old boogeyman bittorrent.

      For most uses bittorrent actually helps the network, WoW client updates and linux distributions being an example. If a portion of a file is available on another node of AT&T's network then it actually saves AT&T money since AT&T doesn't have to pay any peer sharing fees with an outside network or backbone for that portion of the data file. Not to mention the changes that has been introduced to bittorrent to make it friendlier to the internet service provider. These changes resulted from an agreement between Bittorrent and Comcast back in March 2008.

      Again, I'd absolutely love to see a network so robust as you could do absolutely everything the marketing number says you can do. LOVE IT. That service, though, wouldn't be the ones the new laws/rules would govern.

      Being snarky doesn't make up for the lack of understanding you have for the subject...

      --
      These comments are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of my employer or colleagues...
    90. Re:Pitchforks by Itchyeyes · · Score: 1

      Ok, I see what you're saying there. In principle, I agree with you here. Like I said before, I'm not opposed to large corporations simply because they are large corporations, nor because they are profitable.

      What I oppose is when these companies use their size and resources to distort, what would otherwise be, efficient market outcomes through our legal and political process. In the case of net neutrality, it's companies manipulating regulators so that they benefit from government mandated limitations on competition, like a utility would, but without any of the restrictions on growth or anti-competitive behavior that utilities are usually subject to.

    91. Re:Pitchforks by spun · · Score: 1

      I'm not suggesting anything, I'm asking, why do all the socialist countries get better Internet service than the land of the free market, home of the bailout?

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    92. Re:Pitchforks by ScentCone · · Score: 1

      their profits to a fair and reasonable level

      Please specify the fair amount of profit that a person, or a company of people, should be allowed to make when selling a product or service. As an obvious corollary, if you have time, please also specify what an individual person should be allowed to make and keep at the end of a day's work. Since you obviously have a working definition of "fair," actual numbers should be simple enough for you to come up with. For example, is your paycheck fair? Would that be right amount for all people to be paid?

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    93. Re:Pitchforks by spun · · Score: 1

      I would like to point out that very large, very powerful companies have another tool at their disposal to distort the market, besides laws and politics. It's an old tool, probably even older even than the other tools. It's called "the market."

      I will give some examples. Undercutting a competitor until they go out of business, then raising your prices. Buying out your competitor's suppliers and refusing to supply them anymore. Buying enough PR to convince your customers that black is white, and you are their bestest friend in the world. Paying a bunch of poor people to go hang out at your competition, eat beans, and fart a lot. The list of market manipulations of the market is endless.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    94. Re:Pitchforks by suutar · · Score: 1

      You're right, they're not _made up of_ magic people with superpowers. Corporations _are_ magic people with superpowers that cannot be rivaled by mortal man. Starting with 'mortal'.

    95. Re:Pitchforks by spun · · Score: 2

      I'm not saying we regulate their profits, I am asking, how come it is always the little guy who has to pay? They are making huge profits, yet they claim that any costs that impact their bottom line will be passed right on to the consumer. Isn't the free market supposed to provide competition that drives down prices? Why, if that is the case, do the socialist first world countries have FAR better, and CHEAPER Internet service than we do, on average? Isn't that fact an indictment of the free market? Or would you just claim the market isn't free enough, and if we just do away with MORE regulations, we'd finally have that cheap Internet the socialists have?

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    96. Re:Pitchforks by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      I disagree. This would be a non-issue if ISPs didn't oversell their connections. Then everyone could play Halo and stream Harry Potter without crowding you out.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    97. Re:Pitchforks by trickyD1ck · · Score: 1

      So much for democracy. Are you sure that the majority of Americans support net neutrality?

    98. Re:Pitchforks by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      No, BRAVE, somehow through intense bravery the little man has deep within him the ability to launch an ISP on his own, like an anime hero defeating a much more powerful villain by simply refusing to give up and believing in his own power to succeed!

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    99. Re:Pitchforks by Itchyeyes · · Score: 1

      The list of market manipulations of the market is endless.

      Most of them, at least most of the effective ones, are also illegal, as they should be.

      If that was supposed to be an argument for why we shouldn't oppose entrenched interests manipulating markets through government regulation, I find it unconvincing.

      If anything I think it backs up my original point, market failures necessitate corrective action by the government in order to foster efficient competitive markets.

      Now, that corrective action could as often be removing existing regulation (eg: allowing open access to larger portions of the wireless spectrum) as it is adding new regulation. But I find the premise that today's telcom environment should essentially remain the satus quo pretty shaky, to say the least.

    100. Re:Pitchforks by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      ^Chain of Win!

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    101. Re:Pitchforks by sac13 · · Score: 1

      Before we get all burn-the-town-ey... why did this happen?

      It goes like this...

      A sufficient number of people make noise about X problem. Since people vote, politicians start echoing the noise about X problem. The politician noise is actually a mating call for campaign donors disguised as prudence. Political donors move in and do their best to make sure laws passed regarding problem X are as loosely defined as possible to give the people that make the actual regulations plenty of room to move. The law is passed and people screaming about X are passified that the government is doing their will. Then the regulators and donors get into a back room with the public pressure gone and figure out how to milk the most out of the new law and how to divide the money.

      And, that's government regulation in a nutshell...

    102. Re:Pitchforks by spun · · Score: 2

      I wasn't attempting to refute anything you were saying, just adding to it. So I certainly hope it supports your point. :) I find it astounding that the statement you made, "market failures necessitate corrective action by the government in order to foster efficient competitive markets," is at all controversial, but it is very controversial these days. Everyone, left and right, seems to have bought into market fundamentalism. Perhaps because market fundamentalism provides the elite with two things: more money, and a mythology that enhances their sense of self esteem.

      From my conversations with him, I would have to say that BobMcD is one of those market fundamentalists. He was using my words to reply to you, so I thought I'd chime in. When you say something like, "What I oppose is when these companies use their size and resources to distort, what would otherwise be, efficient market outcomes through our legal and political process. In the case of net neutrality, it's companies manipulating regulators so that they benefit from government mandated limitations on competition," a market fundamentalist like BobMcD will take that as a pure indictment of government regulation, and a call to deregulate everything. Which I know is not what you mean, so I felt it necessary to clarify your point. Glad I actually understood what your point was.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    103. Re:Pitchforks by Itchyeyes · · Score: 1

      Ah, sorry. Didn't look at the poster and thought I was replying to BobMcD.

    104. Re:Pitchforks by scubamage · · Score: 1

      If you can find me a majority of VOTING people (outside of telecom owners)who are willing to pay more money for the exact same level of service they currently enjoy, I will buy you a box of cookies. :)

    105. Re:Pitchforks by anethema · · Score: 2

      If ISPs did not oversell you wouldn't need the ISP.

      Try signing up for a not oversold connection. See how much a DS3 in your house costs. It is only ~45 megabit, not that fast right ?

      A full, non fractional DS3 might be around $4000 per month.

      That's a bit crazy, how about a normal Ethernet connection. We pay around $500 for every 20 megabit, every month. We're currently hovering around 25 megabit steady so we pay for 40 to be ready for spikes etc. Anyone can get this, pay a grand a month and get 40 megabit home internet.

      Or go with the local cable provider and get 100 megabit for $150 a month. Oversold of course.

      --


      It's easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them.
    106. Re:Pitchforks by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      Yes, it is a series of tubes. People like to use the tube remark as a sound bite to imply stupidity about the internet, but data pathways have frequently been called "tunnels" and "pipes". Calling them tubes is exactly as accurate and exactly as legitimate of a description of what the data connections are.

    107. Re:Pitchforks by BobMcD · · Score: 1

      To be fair, I do not necessarily worship at the alter of market forces. I do agree that you, spun, have summed me up in this manner, but that's okay, you're clearly a busy poster talking to a lot of people on here and it can be helpful to take shortcuts.

      No, to be clear, I oppose government. If there is a solution, almost ANY solution, that could otherwise achieve the desired result then I say use that FIRST. Exhaustively, even. Government, as in 'do as I say or we kill you', should never ever be used, except maybe as a last resort.

      Market forces are one of those things that can and will eventually work, and such are preferable to government in almost every case.

      That's my view of it, anyway.

    108. Re:Pitchforks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What's scarier is knowing that there are people out there who would give the power to decide what's a "fair" profit to an entity that reserves unto itself the power to initiate the use of force. Then it's back to the old "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" totalitarianism.

    109. Re:Pitchforks by k6mfw · · Score: 1

      Many slashdot people have presented good discussion, but.... ain't we all simply preaching to the choir? All these opinions and analysis do stimulate readers to consider of how and why certain govt decisions were made. I think only other place(s) that has this is wired.com, techdirt, or maybe PBS Newshour. Would there be some chance of a SlashDotChannel cable channel? (or Comcast may say, "sorry not enough bandwidth!). Could go satellite (FTA) but probably too expensive.

      However, this encourages me to write my congressman, and I will use some of this discussion presented.

      --
      mfwright@batnet.com
    110. Re:Pitchforks by BobMcD · · Score: 1

      The reason being that your argument is based solely on the boogeyman, and the only scenario you presented was a fictional proposition of a consumer setting up a competing VOIP rather than being a user of a competing VOIP service.

      s/boogeyman/hyperbole/g - but yes, it was intended to illustrate the extreme. AT&T deserves to defend themselves from the extreme, do they not? A truly neutral net would necessarily exclude them from doing so, ergo the argument. Or are you only arguing a somewhat-neutral net? And that's the case, then isn't that what the FCC is offering??

      Now that you failed to win any points with your VOIP example, you've decided to bring out the old boogeyman bittorrent.

      And now that you're tired of the conversation, you're going ad hominem.

      My argument is simply that there exist now examples of things that people use networks to do that cause them harm. Further there are things not yet imagined that will do likewise, I'm certain. The networks deserve the right to react to those things, and neutrality involves removing that power. FEEL FREE TO CHOOSE YOUR OWN EXAMPLES IF YOU WISH.

      Label that in any way that makes it easier to attack me as you wish, but you have yet to explain away how this is not the case. You're lightly making a claim that no one wants to do this, and that's all fine in the gumdrop forest, but in the real world people are more opportunistic than this and we both know it.

    111. Re:Pitchforks by gangien · · Score: 1

      You know what's scary? the fact that you don't realize how much better our lives are, because of exactly what you mock.

    112. Re:Pitchforks by spun · · Score: 1

      I apologize if I got your position wrong. Seriously. Did not mean to pigeon hole you. I honestly fail to see the difference between your point of view and that of a market fundamentalist, but that's all right. You still believe that no regulation is a good regulation, right?

      I believe in the right of individuals to band together into groups to protect their interests. I believe in the right of a group to determine who will and won't be a member of that group. I believe in the right to self defense. If someone says, "I will come and live amongst you, but not follow your rules" then I believe that people have the right to say, "No, you won't and if you try, we'll shoot you." I believe that it is the right of all individuals to place restrictions on who they will trade with and how they will trade. If you want to be a part of "the free market" then you must follow the rules that other buyers and sellers in the market agree on. They have the right to exclude you from trading with them if you do not follow their rules. For instance, I do not want to trade with murderers, or anyone who trades with murderers. I believe that we, as a group of individuals, have the right to say, "If you want to be in our group, you must give up your right to trade with murderers."

      Market forces do not always work. There are specific cases where the market fails in its stated goal, which is the efficient distribution of goods and services. Monopoly, imbalance of information, and externalities are all forms of market failure.

      So let me ask you, how do you feel about a group of people who do not say "Do as I say, or we kill you" but instead say, "Do as we say, or we shun you. You are, in effect, dead to us. No trade. No help. No living near us. You go away now." Is that an acceptable form of government?

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    113. Re:Pitchforks by spitzak · · Score: 1

      The "mailman" is NOT allowed to charge FedEx a premium to put stuff on your doorstep. The "mailman" is NOT allowed to charge you more for the same package delivered the same way from Target than from Walmart.

    114. Re:Pitchforks by spitzak · · Score: 1

      The carriers are allowed to oversell their connections. They are not allowed to oversell it to the point that if the only traffic is everybody making a 911 call that it does not work.

      So if a huge number of people make 911 calls then the Halo and Harry Potter players get reduced to the same bandwidth as one of those 911 calls, and the 911 calls get through.

    115. Re:Pitchforks by StikyPad · · Score: 1

      Ha.. yeah, blacks are just like packets.

      You're either very stupid for even making that comparison, especially in jest, or else quite the dick. I hope for the former, but fear for the latter.

    116. Re:Pitchforks by BobMcD · · Score: 1

      So let me ask you, how do you feel about a group of people who do not say "Do as I say, or we kill you" but instead say, "Do as we say, or we shun you. You are, in effect, dead to us. No trade. No help. No living near us. You go away now." Is that an acceptable form of government?

      To answer the question, minus the omission, yes this would be far preferable. I'd say that the 'living near' us between the guy buying and the guy selling that land. Otherwise, yes.

      I believe deeply in the 'as for me and my house' standard, and I think it works well for nearly every application...

      I believe in the right of individuals to band together into groups to protect their interests.

      This basic right is a very agreeable thing, too. Unfortunately these kinds of groups are usually formed under genuine need and yet perpetuated under corruption. They often wind up bent to the whims of the loudest voices or some other undue influencer. At some point they circle back on themselves from 'we shun you' to 'we will kill anyone who does not shun you' - it's just simple human dynamics. Starts off decent and good, and goes south pretty fast. In a market scenario competition usually offers a 'fix' to this sort of thing.

      When was the last time you heard of 'competing government'?

    117. Re:Pitchforks by BobMcD · · Score: 1

      RATS! The tags didn't work! Please omit 'no living near us' from the above quote...

    118. Re:Pitchforks by spun · · Score: 1

      The world is a marketplace of competing governments. As a person with saleable skills and some assets, I could move to nearly any country on earth. It sounds like you want to walk into a Burger King and order a Big Mac. Uh, no, this is Burger King, we don't make that here. You want the place down the street, ta-ta! A free market will not necessarily give you the option you want at location and price you want. A free market of governance will not necessarily give you the option you want at location and price you want.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    119. Re:Pitchforks by sorak · · Score: 1

      But the mail man does not open your letter and say "oh this is important, we're going to charge you extra for it". I have no problem with the ISP charging for the bandwidth you use. My problem is with them dictating how you use it.

    120. Re:Pitchforks by inthealpine · · Score: 1

      Orwell. Nice.

      --
      "In God We Trust, All Others Pay Cash"
    121. Re:Pitchforks by BobMcD · · Score: 1

      You're absolutely right, but there are matters of scale involved. Relocating to another country involves new languages, customs, loss of loved ones, and considerable expense. Not nearly as big of a deal as going to the shop next door.

      Indeed it would be comparably easier to open up your very own burger stand than it would be to relocate to another country.

      And again, the market allows an infinite number of burger stands. There are much greater barriers to forming your own nation.

    122. Re:Pitchforks by stdarg · · Score: 1

      Easy solution. You can oversubscribe, but the amount of dedicated bandwidth per subscriber has to be enough to make the 911 call.

      The devices using up your bandwidth are under your control. If you want to stream HD movies while making your 911 call, you're out of luck. But if you turn off everything, you are guaranteed to have enough available bandwidth to make the call.

      Why does it need to be more guaranteed than that? Who cares if your neighbor is still streaming HD as long as you can make your call by turning off YOUR tv?

    123. Re:Pitchforks by stdarg · · Score: 1

      I think your vision is fine and could be handled just like new "smart meters" for electricity.

      You want bulk, high latency bandwidth for a linux DVD image, it's $10/month prorated by your usage. The high quality voip bandwidth is $100/month prorated by your usage.

      Personally I don't see the problem with that level of neutrality. The key point is your ISP can't discriminate by substituting one type of traffic for another at the same price. If you say "I'm using the high quality bandwidth for hulu" then you'll get it and they can't do anything about it. Likewise if they want to stream HD movies to you, they have to pick one of the existing bandwidth packages to do it, it can't be a private, no-competition package that lets them undercut the competition.

      That's really all that's required for net neutrality.

    124. Re:Pitchforks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why, garsh golly, they should be able to earn ALL of the money!

      Your argument isn't very good when you realize that our financial system is a closed system. If one guy earns it all, nobody else will have any.

      I'm not saying that we can limit people, only that something must be done.

    125. Re:Pitchforks by spun · · Score: 1

      While there are matters of scale, why should that matter? Does your convenience in choosing a government from the world wide free market in governance override other people's right to self determination? You don't get to dictate to the owners how they will run their business, sorry. Yes, you are a part owner of this business, and that gets you some say here, but you don't get to override the other owners wishes, we have a whole process to make the decision making as fair as possible.

      I challenge the idea that it would be easier to open a burger stand than to move to another country. To open a burger stand, you would need to secure funding on the order of half a million dollars, by my estimate. (And I was in the chef business before getting into computers, I know a bit about it) You would need to comply with a number of local, state, and federal regulations. You would need a business plan, a marketing plan, and employees. You would need to find a location, and perform market research showing there is excess demand for burgers in that location. Most countries, you show up with some in-demand skills and a hundred thou, you get right in the short line to citizenship.

      (Now, if you'd been clever enough to use "cook your own burger" as your counter example, I wouldn't have such an easy time refuting it, but you didn't use that example, now did you? ;)

      The market does not allow an infinite number of burger stands, that is just silly and you know it. As soon as you mention the word "infinite" you need to drop the word "market." Markets don't deal in infinities, the whole point of markets is distributing finite resources! The market allows a large number of burger stands in geographically separate areas. Even putting too many burger stands in the same area will cause some burger stands to disappear. There are great barriers to forming an automobile manufacturing plant, as well, not just anyone can do it. Is that unfair?

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    126. Re:Pitchforks by witherstaff · · Score: 1

      How do you even begin to compete against a monopoly. Since the '96 telco reforms were rolled back you could string up all the wire you want and the monopolies wouldn't have to interconnect.

    127. Re:Pitchforks by trickyD1ck · · Score: 1

      I have no stake in this as im am not an American. It is just that I keep wondering if the reason why American legislators fail to pass net netrality time and again may be because the majority of voters doesn't want it.

    128. Re:Pitchforks by BobMcD · · Score: 1

      While there are matters of scale, why should that matter?

      Yes. Clearly it should within the realm of all reasonable conversation.

      Does your convenience in choosing a government from the world wide free market in governance override other people's right to self determination?

      Well that depends. Are we talking about the laws I'm expected to follow or some other nation's power to erect their own laws. In the former, yes absolutely there should never be any law that imposes on me more than expatriating. This is a fine metric, actually. In the latter case, they're free to do as they see fit.

      You don't get to dictate to the owners how they will run their business, sorry.

      'Owners' of government being whom, exactly?

      Besides in the business world we get to vote with our wallets. That would be an EXCELLENT check-and-ballance on goverment, actually. Only pay taxes on what you agree with! Oh yes, I LOVE that idea!!

      Yes, you are a part owner of this business, and that gets you some say here, but you don't get to override the other owners wishes, we have a whole process to make the decision making as fair as possible.

      Well, thankfully, I'm not in the minority. Otherwise we might have to arrange a hostile takeover. Meanwhile, I sit confident that competition is a good thing and monopolies are bad, including governments.

      (Now, if you'd been clever enough to use "cook your own burger" as your counter example, I wouldn't have such an easy time refuting it, but you didn't use that example, now did you? ;)

      No, I did not, but I also wouldn't have expected you to slide the scale on one end, but not the other. To open a stand might cost half a million up-front/loaned dollars, but then the opportunity cost of your career, your wife's, and your childrens' could easily triple that over their lifetimes, when adjusted for interest and the like... Why amplify one extreme but not the other?

      Even putting too many burger stands in the same area will cause some burger stands to disappear...

      ...allowing new stands to open, infinitely. I'm talking about the long haul here, not the single second frozen in time. It isn't as if once the seventh stand was opened that human would explode when trying to open the eighth.

      I'm sad. We had a moment there, then I made a point, then you got all loosey-goosey with the logic. Bummer.

    129. Re:Pitchforks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe there should be a different pipe for VOIP then...

    130. Re:Pitchforks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cannibalism here I come!
       
      But wait it may take a few hundred years while being surrounded by barbarians blocking our trading to China, but ya, I see the decline and only cheep propaganda to bolster a sagging system. It stems from lack of morals, belief in our leaders, our political system. I still have hope and faith, but so many out to destroy this great country. Like our current president. So, I guess I'm a martyr, but I remember a time when the internet was an open space to create what you wanted. Under the FCC leadership (self acclaimed), we have given further freedoms. I always laugh that Democrats and Republicans always have one thing in common. Make a living off the people. THIS MEANS YOU AND ME!

      Mark Lloyd (FCC Czar) is such a fan of leftist totalitarianism that he wants to bring Chavez’s version of the Fairness Doctrine to America. Communism, all handpicked by Obama!

    131. Re:Pitchforks by spun · · Score: 1

      Who gets to determine how much a law imposes on you? You? Workplace safety laws certainly impose a lot on owners, should we not have workplace safety laws?

      We are the owners of our government. If we are not exercising proper control, and letting thugs run our government, that is our fault.

      You DO get to vote with your wallet on governance, in exactly the same way you do with any business! Do you think you can walk into that burger shack, order a burger, EAT IT, and then not pay because you didn't like it? No. The choice the free market offers you is, go to a different burger shack. The free market rarely offers a "pay only if you like it" deal, and those deals always come with significant limits.

      You have already admitted that there is no monopoly in governance, so quit bringing that up. By the definition of monopoly that you are using for government, every business is a monopoly because no other businesses occupy the exact same location. Why, that burger shack has a monopoly on selling burgers at 213 Burger Shack Road! Unfair!

      If we start talking opportunity costs, we have to figure them in for both sides, which I did not do. What is the opportunity cost on that half a million? Do you know the percentage of restaurants that fail within a year? Honestly, if you have half a million to invest, unless cooking is your absolute passion, invest it in anything else but a restaurant. But this is all just a tangent anyway, not the main point.

      I'm not sad. My logic is not loosey goosy, you just don't like losing. :P

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    132. Re:Pitchforks by BobMcD · · Score: 1

      You have already admitted that there is no monopoly in governance, so quit bringing that up.

      If there's no monopoly via the FCC then there's no monopoly via ComCast either. Didn't you argue, just yesterday, that controls over the ISPs were warranted because of their monopoly? Could people who don't like ComCast not simply move to Europe?? You simply cannot have it both ways.

      ? Honestly, if you have half a million to invest, unless cooking is your absolute passion, invest it in anything else but a restaurant.

      There's this guy outside of a nearby Walmart with a hand-painted sign that says 'Tacos'. He's operating out of a trailer. If that set-up cost him $500,000.00 then he got SCREWED! So, yes, I do thing you're overestimating the costs involved in order to make your point. Further you're not allowing that a half-million-dollar restaurant might sell things and there-by bring in some income. But whatever.

    133. Re:Pitchforks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry I am too poor and don't have enough time to go with a sign across the country. Can you support me, hire a stand-in, or stand there for me since you apparently are more able to?

      The only people that can do such a thing are too poor to be able to afford to do it. We used to only need one income source for a family, now requiring two or more is not that uncommon. This is of course because of the standards of living has vastly out paced the income of employees.

      It would be nice, if they offered a confidential system of voicing our systems through some sort of information exchange system. It might use pipes. I can't see that happening though. Why would we need a congress or even the concept of states within the nation if the people could vote directly on issues. The idea of states and even more so nations is falling on the verge of being unneeded when information can easily and clearly be transmitted in mere milliseconds to any region in the world at any time. If any nation sees the problems in the USA as isolated, has failed to notice what affects our problems and "solutions" will have on them. If each nation was a company, we would fall into the "Too Big to Fail" category. I sure feel safer with us, then without us given the state of many things. Oh, that would be neat, a World Police Tax. :p

      I see the country's growth as sort of an old tree. The tree has reached it maximum height and the bark is growing ever more dry and gray. Not dead, just not growing as fast, if at all.

    134. Re:Pitchforks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Do you seriously think that any anti-net neutrality legislation would be rubber-stamped if even 1000 people gathered outside of the capital and refused to leave until their voices were heard? 10,000? 100,000? A million?

      Do you seriously think it's possible to have a functional democracy REQUIRE mass protests over every single issue anyone cares about?

      > The country is a fading empire; history is repeating itself, and the country will fade just like Rome did.

      That's a ridiculous stretch. By that standard all nations at all times have only been on the way down.

    135. Re:Pitchforks by ChuckLLNL · · Score: 1

      $ ip route add blackhole .fcc.gov. Is a good start...

    136. Re:Pitchforks by mike1210 · · Score: 1

      I believe in the right of individuals to band together into groups to protect their interests. I believe in the right of a group

      Groups don't have rights. Only individuals do. Furthermore, you are not advocating for a mere group of people coming together voluntarily and through unanimous consent. You are advocating for a small group of people who are specially privileged to use force against others, in ways impermissible for ordinary people, and subjugate others against their will.

    137. Re:Pitchforks by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      You're either very stupid for even making that comparison, or else quite the dick

      GP didn't make any specific comparisons in his post - you did.

    138. Re:Pitchforks by spun · · Score: 1

      Oh, I can SO have it both ways if I want. I'm an American. Having it both ways is a right enshrined in our Constitution, isn't it?

      Jokes aside, you have a point. If moving is the answer to local monopoly, then I can't say it isn't the answer in some cases unless I can come up with a rationalization er, I mean, a logical reason. How about, oh, I don't know, controls over a monopoly are ALWAYS warranted, and for our government, WE HAVE THEM. That sounds like a good solid rationaliz... logical argument. (damn the lack of strikethrough tags on Slashdot, makin' muh jokes less funny)

      Hey, lets get back to that shared moment thing and forget about my dumb burger shack analogy. Maybe we could go over to that metagovernment guy's site. My instincts tell me that all his spamming for his site is because he is a true activist and not because he is an utter loon. And my instincts are infallible, like when they told me you were a libertarian. Wait...

      Okay, I'm in a wacky mood today, I think I've had too much coffee or something.

      Anyway, you probably don't know this but I'm an (shhhh!) Anarchist. Of the far lefty variety, which is why I dislike libertarians, the splitters! I've lived and worked in real life anarchist situations. My dream society is a loose federation of very small governments, cooperating AND competing to provide services. The metagovernment spammmer is on to something, we could have a very different form of government with our current technology. Hell, with our technology we could even make a command economy work. They almost did that in Chile, with project Cybersyn back in 1970. Too bad we had Allende killed, eh? Oops, our bad, but to be fair, the dude was a socialist in our back yard, and it says right here on the lease from Bretton Woods that we get to shoot socialists in our back yard.

      Small, local government. Good god. I sound like a Republican. Except they don't really want that at all anymore. And we can't just make government smaller given the current state of things, shit would just fall apart. That's always the problem, I mean, it isn't too hard for anyone with common sense and an above average IQ to come up with a halfway viable Utopian society. The trick is getting there from here without going through Hell in the process.

      But I also believe in social safety nets. It's either social safety nets, or lots of cops. People in dire straits don't just lay down and die, they take what they have to and hurt who they must. So, providing those social safety nets is in all of our best interests, it is cheaper than tons of cops and jails. And social safety nets provide real freedom, I am free to risk more, try more, and ultimately do more for my society if they are there to catch me when I fall. I don't worry about the little parasites, because most people don't want to be a parasite, unless it looks like everyone is doing it. Most people want others to look up to them, or at least not look down on them, and everyone looks down on leaches.

      So anyway, that's what I am, a lefty anarchist. I want small local government, where people can participate in the running of their society, and really feel like they "own" their society and government. But I also want real social safety nets, because the alternative is worse. And, because everyone benefits from the existence of a social safety net, everyone should help pay. And if they don't help pay, they should not be allowed to do business with the people who DO contribute. I'm all for withdrawal of reward as a punishment for non compliance, rather than the use of force.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    139. Re:Pitchforks by BobMcD · · Score: 1

      My dream society is a loose federation of very small governments, cooperating AND competing to provide services.

      I'd actually go in for that. Indeed, this is how I see the original design of the States.

      But I also believe in social safety nets. It's either social safety nets, or lots of cops.

      Here too we agree, and as well that nets are better than more cops. I've often said that the answer to the healthcare debate is to offer government-run/taxpayer-funded hospitals as an alternative, or even as the only solution. The government is good at providing certain things, among them being things that everyone ought to have without limit. Or with only sane limits, anyway.

      So anyway, that's what I am, a lefty anarchist. I want small local government, where people can participate in the running of their society, and really feel like they "own" their society and government. But I also want real social safety nets, because the alternative is worse. And, because everyone benefits from the existence of a social safety net, everyone should help pay. And if they don't help pay, they should not be allowed to do business with the people who DO contribute. I'm all for withdrawal of reward as a punishment for non compliance, rather than the use of force.

      That all sounds entirely, perfectly reasonable to me as well.

    140. Re:Pitchforks by spun · · Score: 1

      Individuals still have rights when they form a group, so the group has the same rights as the sum of the individuals' rights.

      I am not even going to argue against your fantasy of what I am or am not for. I will just say, I am not advocating for a small group of people who are specially privileged to use force, or subjugating anyone.

      I am saying, I and a group of other individuals can own land held jointly, and we can say, "We don't like you, go away, this is our land." and if you don't leave, THEN we have the right to shoot you in the head. I mean, you do believe in property rights, don't you?

      This is our land, we set the rules, and you do not get to stay here unless you follow them. Any other business will tell you the same thing, and unless you are advocating against property rights, you have no counter to my argument. And I am DEAD SURE you will not argue against property rights. So there we have it.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    141. Re:Pitchforks by spun · · Score: 1

      I've mentioned it before, but again, "Anarchism" does not mean NO government. It means no rulers. No government would be anocracy. I am against rule by force, but force is a tricky thing to define.

      I'm just a little scared to say I want "small government" because I want a very different type of small government than most people who use that phrase. Or maybe I'm being self centered here, maybe I don't really want something that different.

      Anyway, I'm glad we had this discussion. It's far better to focus on common cause and shared beliefs than to focus on differences.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    142. Re:Pitchforks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I see you've got another new account, Mike? What happened - the karma on your old ones is in the gutter already?

    143. Re:Pitchforks by MichaelKristopeit314 · · Score: 1
      i do not have more accounts than i CAN have.

      why do you cower? what are you afraid of?

      you're completely pathetic.

    144. Re:Pitchforks by mike1210 · · Score: 1

      This is our land,

      Where is the land that you're claiming?

      we set the rules,

      Such as?

    145. Re:Pitchforks by klui · · Score: 1

      Absolutely. Businesses in the US own the lawmakers so they can have laws to squeeze as much profit from the population. Regulation in Asian and Scandinavian countries promote competition. Those who have control won't allow competition.

    146. Re:Pitchforks by fishexe · · Score: 1

      I think that makes a lot of sense, and I have yet to hear a good argument from the "all packets must be equal" crowd against your position, but I figure there must be one, because people still cling to the "all packets must be equal" definition of True Net Neutrality[TM]. So my question to all the purists is, what's wrong with MozeeToby's version of Net Neutrality? Please explain your position in detail so I can understand it thoroughly and adapt my position accordingly.

      --
      "I don't care about the Constitution!" --Bill O'Reilly, November 17, 2009
    147. Re:Pitchforks by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      If we demand a dumb pipe then we will get one. And at 6pm when all the neighbours get home we won't be able to make calls while they are streaming videos of netflix. The term net neutrality has never been about creating a dumb pipe, the internet wouldn't function as one. The term has been about anti-discrimination based on the source and destination of traffic.

      I do not want a law that would get in the way of basic QoS. I want my VoIP traffic to get priority over the neighbour's kid discovering 2 girls 1 cup. What I DON'T want is that my traffic is prioritised because I paid for priority, or because I'm using a service who paid the provider for priority.

    148. Re:Pitchforks by protektor · · Score: 1

      Wow I can tell you have never had to compete directly against the telcos or cable companies. I can tell you have never gone to your state capital to get the telcos and cable companies to play fair and stop lying to your customers. Only to be told that the telcos and cable companies are big contributors and that State congressmen were told that isn't how it would work or what happened, so little guy get out. I can tell you have never had to fight local city hall and the state over the right to lay your own cables. Big corporations would never do anything to strangle competition or give themselves an unfair advantage or lie to your state congressmen. They would never use their profits from one side of the house to prop up their Internet side so they could lower prices to drive everyone else out of business. Big corporations would never give special deals to their Internet side that no one else can get even though they were court ordered to keep the Internet side at arms length.

      Nope Corporations would never do those things, they always play nice with others, and never abuse their monopoly positions.

      If you believe any of that, which I have seen first hand is false, then I have a bridge to sell you.

    149. Re:Pitchforks by protektor · · Score: 1

      The problem in this whole mess for competition is that the cable companies and telcos (who were just divided up AT&T and the remerged over time) have had an unfair advantage against every other company that tries to compete with them. They have had government and city approved monopolies for 40-100 years. When they are that entrenched and existed that long with no competition, they clearly have an unfair advantage to anyone competing with them. Also using their monopoly advantage to drive everyone else out of the Internet market because they can use their monopoly position on the last mile and the other side of the house (phone, TV) to prop up the Internet side while they drop prices and give unfair advantages.

      At this point you can't just turn them loose in an open market. They will cream everyone else as they clearly have done. How many locally owned ISPs exist anymore? It isn't because of mismanagement either. You have to regulate these historically long monopolies different from everyone else in the market to even hope to have a level playing field for everyone. That didn't happen and the public is paying the price.

    150. Re:Pitchforks by protektor · · Score: 1

      Because we don't have true free markets when it comes to last mile. Instead we have companies (telcos & cablecoms) who have been given monopolies for 40-100 years and aren't about to give those up easily. The very serious very real problem is a lack of competition and a lack of ability to compete at the last mile due to city and state government regulations.

    151. Re:Pitchforks by protektor · · Score: 1

      You can thank you city and state governments...and oh heck throw in the national government, for setting up monopolies for the last 40-100 years, both telcos and cable companies. Then using regulations to restrict competition at the last mile. Good job government you have effectively killed or allow to be killed Internet competition.

    152. Re:Pitchforks by protektor · · Score: 2

      Sounds like a great plan. I have said for years the last mile needs to be owned by the city allowing anyone and everyone to use it to reach that last mile that companies protect like a dog with a bone. It would make revenue for the cities and provide tons of competition since anyone could play.

    153. Re:Pitchforks by protektor · · Score: 1

      Telephone service for the telcos isn't unprofitable. I don't know where you heard that but you need to look at their annual reports. They are ranking in profits hand over fist and it isn't coming from their Internet side. Now you will hear those companies whine about phone service, but that is because they aren't able to rape the public anymore they have to compete a bit with VOIP, cell phones and other things. Most telcos have already switched or are switching to TCP/IP based networks. There is no chance in hell any of the established companies are going to switch to SIP and will fight like hell against it. They make huge profits off phone lines and their network, no way they are upsetting that apple cart. The telcos and cable companies already went round and round over the Internet VOIP companies and tried to get regulations and models of doing business passed that would have put the VOIP companies out of business and/or paid huge sums of money to the last mile guys. No the telcos are not hurting at all, and the definitely aren't your friend.

    154. Re:Pitchforks by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      You made a 6AM post, read mine again carefully.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    155. Re:Pitchforks by 72beetle · · Score: 1

      All others count as 2/3 of a packet.

      --
      -Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music.
    156. Re:Pitchforks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm glad he's gone... I reckon the party can start now.

    157. Re:Pitchforks by spun · · Score: 1

      The regulations are because of a systemic lack of competition brought about by the natural monopoly nature of running wires.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    158. Re:Pitchforks by spun · · Score: 1

      The United States of America is our land, and the rules are called the constitution.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    159. Re:Pitchforks by mike1210 · · Score: 1

      The United States of America is our land, and the rules are called the constitution.

      So basically, you are proposing that a small group of people exercise a monopoly of force, a special privilege to use force in ways impermissible for ordinary people, over a vast geographic area, with the ability to subjugate others to your will.

      That's not private property ownership, that's a state.

      This is not your land. Land belongs to individuals, and whatever voluntary organizations, such as corporations or non-profits, they set up based on unanimous consent.

    160. Re:Pitchforks by protektor · · Score: 1

      "Our current phone system is an antiquated relic " That is simply not the case. They have upgraded many of their switches and most everything but the last mile is now fiber. The networks of the telcos is pretty much state of the art. The converting to TCP/IP has helped them reduce a lot of costs and improve their networks. Is that a bit more specific for you. The only thing that might be considered antiquated is the last mile. That is the most expensive part and will always lag behind the rest of the network. Even the term last mile is a bit misleading since most telco switches are less than a mile from most homes in the US and they run fiber between switch offices.

    161. Re:Pitchforks by protektor · · Score: 1

      The cable monopolies are because cable companies back in the 1960's and 1970's told cities look if you want cable TV then you can only let my company come in and service the city otherwise forget it, it's too expensive. Cities have continued to renew those contracts for years even up until today. The cities could allow more competition at the last mile but choose not to.

      The simplest thing would be to build out their own network and sell connectivity on it to everyone, internet, phone, cable all of them. Then you would have a whole lot more last mile competition and running fiber for a city these day isn't nearly as expensive as it once was. The laying of fiber isn't the cost issue, the right of way costs are the biggest issues. Cities already have right of ways, so adding fiber to those areas wouldn't be a major deal. They would just want to bury it rather than hang it on poles, since it would be safer, and less susceptible to weather issues. Hell you could put a 25-50 fiber cable everywhere and still have plenty of fiber to give any company their own fiber, let alone if they shared. It would create the dream that people have talked about of fiber to the home. This could then become another revenue generator for the cities as well. It would also be a good selling point for businesses that they can easily network their offices to each other. The local government could be totally interconnected as well to each other, which might introduce additional cost savings for them.

    162. Re:Pitchforks by spun · · Score: 1

      A state is a voluntary organization. If you don't like it, leave. It is based on unanimous consent in the same way a corporation is: you agree to the rules, or you are not a part of it. I never mentioned force, or a monopoly on it. That's just your ideology parroting back things it heard. Groups can own land, the idea that they can not negates property rights and contracts. Your ideology is based on demonstrable falsehoods.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    163. Re:Pitchforks by spun · · Score: 1

      You really need to read up on natural monopolies before I can even have a rational discussion with you.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    164. Re:Pitchforks by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      The point is it still operates like an ancient relic, regardless of the hardware it runs on. You still have to dial a telco-assigned phone number to reach another person's house where they answer it using a phone that's hardwired into their telco's equipment and attached to a service that bills the call per minute or something crazy like that.

      It would be like if the postal service switched to using teleporters instead of airplanes for long-distance delivery, but the change wasn't perceptible to the people sending and receiving mail. It's only technically an improvement.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    165. Re:Pitchforks by ScentCone · · Score: 1

      Your argument isn't very good when you realize that our financial system is a closed system. If one guy earns it all, nobody else will have any.

      Just on the off chance you're not trolling: if you were right, there would be no more prosperity "available" today than there was 200 years ago. In fact, there would be less, because there are more people, right?

      The economic pie is NOT of a fixed size. Economies expand and contract as productivity and risk and investment and innovation change. Wealth is created, not split up into ever-smaller pieces. People who think like you are the primary thing that's wrong with the country doday.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    166. Re:Pitchforks by ScentCone · · Score: 1

      how come it is always the little guy who has to pay?

      Because the "little guy" is the one who's actually buying the services. The customer IS who pays for thing, right? Incidentally, there are plenty of non-"little guy" buyers of mobile devices and other carrier services. Some customers buy and use thousands of units and accounts. These are not "the little guy."

      Why, if that is the case, do the socialist first world countries have FAR better, and CHEAPER Internet service than we do, on average?

      Please be specific, and include places that have the same population densities. Even all-powerful socialist countries can't change the laws of physics. Who SHOULD pay the tens of thousands of dollars it costs to run fiber a house out in the middle of North Dakota?

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    167. Re:Pitchforks by saleenS281 · · Score: 1

      That's class warfare.

    168. Re:Pitchforks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      but you have more accounts than you NEED.
      why do you dodge? what are you afraid of?

      you're completely pathetic.

    169. Re:Pitchforks by MichaelKristopeit326 · · Score: 0
      you have LESS accounts than someone taking responsibility for their stated claims NEED.

      why does ur mum's face dodge?

      why do you continue to cower? what are you afraid of?

      you're completely pathetic.

    170. Re:Pitchforks by mike1210 · · Score: 1

      A state is a voluntary organization. If you don't like it, leave.

      If the state didn't claim a monopoly of force over everything within a large geographic area, then your argument might be valid. As it is now, there is nowhere to go. Even if I did leave, they still claim the power to tax me for ten years after I've left.

      It is based on unanimous consent in the same way a corporation is: you agree to the rules, or you are not a part of it.

      If it was based on unanimous consent, then the US Constitution could only apply to those who signed it, or voted for it directly.

      I never mentioned force

      You wrote:

      I am saying, I and a group of other individuals can own land held jointly, and we can say, "We don't like you, go away, this is our land." and if you don't leave, THEN we have the right to shoot you in the head.

      Sure sounds to me like you're advocating force to uphold the state.

    171. Re:Pitchforks by spun · · Score: 1

      The state does not have a monopoly on force. You can defend yourself. As a group, we have the right to defend ourselves and enforce our rules on our land. That we pay a ceertain class of people to do most of it for us is immaterial.

      The state is based on unanimous consent, if you don't like it you can give up your citizenship right now and not pay any taxes. There are places to go, you may not like them better, but that is not our problem.

      I'm advocating defensive use of force in that line, not initiation of force. You initiate force if you break our rules.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    172. Re:Pitchforks by mike1210 · · Score: 1

      The state does not have a monopoly on force. You can defend yourself.

      I can only defend myself in very specific circumstances. You claim the "right" to use force to coerce me into paying taxes, and follow an endless, convoluted set of arbitrary "rules" that make ordinary middle-class people potential "felons". If an ordinary person tried to do something like that, they would be jailed or killed. You are therefore claiming an exclusive, special privilege to use force against others.

      As a group, we have the right to defend ourselves and enforce our rules on our land. That we pay a ceertain class of people to do most of it for us is immaterial.

      This isn't your land. You did nothing to improve it, and you do not live on it. The trouble is, you still make a claim not only to my land, but to every square inch of area on a good portion of this continent, meaning that, without there being easements, I have no choice but to deal with you.

      The state is based on unanimous consent,

      Again, if that were true, then the Constitution, and the government it formed could only apply to those who signed the Constitution, or directly voted for it.

      if you don't like it you can give up your citizenship right now and not pay any taxes.

      Untrue. I am still subject to exit taxes.

    173. Re:Pitchforks by spun · · Score: 1

      Yes, we demand you pay your fair share of taxes, for the services you consume. As for potential middle class felons, well, I don't agree with all the laws of the land either, but we do have ways of changing things, and for now, I value staying more than leaving.

      Yes, we, the people of America, have done quite a bit to improve this land. The roads, sewers, electrical systems, not to mention all the services you get here, such as social security.

      It is unanimous consent, because you consent by staying. If you didn't like the deal offered, you would seek another, better one.

      There is no exit tax in America.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    174. Re:Pitchforks by mike1210 · · Score: 1

      Yes, we demand you pay your fair share of taxes, for the services you consume.

      Define "fair share".

      Yes, we, the people of America, have done quite a bit to improve this land. The roads, sewers, electrical systems, not to mention all the services you get here, such as social security.

      Roads were built by seizing other improved land. My subdivision, on the other hand, built its own roads and sewers, my electrical utility is privately owned, and I have little hope of ever seeing the money I "pay into" Social Security.

      It is unanimous consent, because you consent by staying.

      Not good enough. I was born here, and nobody can "consent" for me. Furthermore, you claim exclusive "ownership" of wide swaths of geographic area, and without easements, I cannot leave easily.

      There is no exit tax in America.

      There is an exit tax in America.

  3. LOL by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Change we can believe in!

    1. Re:LOL by sageres · · Score: 2, Funny
      LOL reminds me of the joke that was popular during the Obama presidential compaign.

      McCain, Hillary and Obama are taking a walk on the streets of DC, and they encounter a homeless person. McCain pulls out a $20 bill and gives it to the man, adding, "Why don't you come tomorrow to my office and we'll talk about the job".
      Hillary, not to be outdone pulls another $20 bill from McCain's pocket, then puts it into her pocket. She then takes out $15 from her own pocket and gives it to the homeless saying, "Five dollars processing fee!".
      Obama shines his smile at the homeless man, comes up to him, pets him on the shoulder and says, "Have HOPE! CHANGE is coming!"

    2. Re:LOL by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "LOL reminds me of the joke that was popular during the Obama presidential compaign."

      I guess it's kind of funny in an absurdist way, because here's what would actually happen:

      McCain, Hillary and Obama are taking a walk on the streets of DC, and they encounter a homeless person.
      Hillary pulls out a $20 bill and taunts the man with it.
      McCain, not to be outdone, screams "GET A JOB YOU GODDAMN HIPPIE!" and kicks him in the balls.
      Obama shines his smile at the homeless man, comes up to him, pets him on the shoulder and says, "Have HOPE! CHANGE is coming!" then takes away the man's cup full of change to give to needy billionaires.
      The three of them continue on to their $10,000 a plate dinner with lobbyists, arm in arm, laughing hysterically.

      Now that's funny. Just not ha-ha funny.

    3. Re:LOL by frank_adrian314159 · · Score: 1

      Dumb right-wing joke

      Yeah, except you forgot the part where McCain grabbed back his $20 because he changed his mind and started kicking the homeless guy because he was shiftless (as most R's think homeless people are).

      --
      That is all.
  4. Re:Why would the Chair sellout? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    *slow clap* Well done there O glorious leaders of the free world...

  5. Re:Why would the Chair sellout? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://www.fcc.gov/commissioners/genachowski/biography.html Check your facts before blathering....

  6. Re:Why would the Chair sellout? by jbeaupre · · Score: 4, Informative
    --
    The world is made by those who show up for the job.
  7. Backlash by mprinkey · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The ace in the hole for net neutrality is the latest crop of cheap TVs with built-in Netflix and other online services. My in-laws just purchased one a few months ago and they use Netflix constantly. These are dye-in-the-wool, Ann Coulter-reading, FOXNews-watching Republicans. I mentioned to my father-in-law about net neutrality being a big issue. He had never heard of it. When I explained the ramifications for their Netflix usage, his response was to immediately support it. It will be interesting to see this shake out. This is another chance where we can see if FOX and Rush can convince more people to act against their own self interest in support of some bastardization of "freedom."

    1. Re:Backlash by sageres · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Why not deregulate the industry and disallow the cable company monopolies (such as Comcast for example) out there so that we actually have competition? That way if any ISP decides to bill "multi-tier" approach, you can vote with your wallet?

    2. Re:Backlash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I thought Freedom meant shooting myself in the foot, literally?

    3. Re:Backlash by PPH · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That makes no sense. Disallowing Comcast and its ilk from doing something is regulation.

      Now if we split Comcast into a content provider and common carrier and deregulated the former while regulating the latter as a utility, that would make sense.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    4. Re:Backlash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is another chance where we can see if FOX and Rush can convince more people to act against their own self interest in support of some bastardization of "freedom."

      It'll never happen. The issue is too complicated for their audience.

    5. Re:Backlash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow I wish I had points to mod you up! Your post is the shabby secret in this, the only reason we need "net neutrality" at all.

      It amazes me that a community which can so vehemently decry the FCC for its attacks on free speech (has everyone forgotten censorship and the Fairness doctrine?) are willing to march in lockstep behind them when a boogey man appears to threaten them!

      The hypocrisy of people calling for the "free and open internet", as if laws can provide either, is astounding. We are so lazy as a society that we're slowly surrendering our free will to the government because we don't want to have to make any choices - such as dropping these asshole corporations which are ignoring their customer base. Instead of adopting more laws and regulations, which have the OPPOSITE EFFECT ON FREEDOM that people seem to think they have, break up the government sanctioned telco monopolies so that people have the freaking choice to change broadband/cable/wireless providers, and that any attempt by anyone to control access to the Internet will suffer the only fate we have the right to: the choice not to use those services and use someone else instead.

    6. Re:Backlash by sageres · · Score: 2

      I said disallow the cable monopolies, not the companies. Please re-read again. In many municipalities the Cable companies have a government-sanctioned monopoly. That means that if you would like to unsubscribe from the Comcast and get a different cable line -- you can not because the said municipalities do not allow them into the market.

    7. Re:Backlash by d3ac0n · · Score: 2

      Agreed.

      I've always felt that as nice as Net Neutrality is, it works better as a set of Principles than as a set of Laws or Regulations.

      The big problem in the ISP industry is not too little regulation, it's too MUCH. A huge part of the barrier to entry is the established legal monopolies and right-of-way laws. If we can get those removed and just allow anyone with the wherewithal to run some fiber, then the pricing and competition issues will go away.

      Not overnight, mind you, but in a much more stable and consumer-oriented manner than some bureaucracy ruling from on high would be able to.

      --
      Official Heretic from the "Church of Global Warming". Proven right thanks to whistle blowers. AGW = Flat Earth Theory
    8. Re:Backlash by beakerMeep · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You mean regulate, right? There used to be a regulation the required telcos to sell their lines at wholesale to competitors but they removed that regulation so that telcos were as unregulated as cable companies (with regards to internet service).

      The local monopolies these ISPs enjoy are not a regulation but rather a grant/partnership of various cities/towns/etc to the cable/telco operator as well as some natural monopolies due to the giants being the only ones with infrastructure. The kind of competition you are promoting is exactly what we need, but don't kid yourself that there are federal regulations that are creating these local monopolies.

      --
      meep
    9. Re:Backlash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      In the area where I live we have Time Warner cable. Verizon had a big advertising push where they were hawking the benefits of FIOS. They made FIOS available in a few areas, then sent out letters saying, "Sorry, we are not building out FIOS to any more neighborhoods as it has not been profitable to do so". Just because competition CAN happen doesn't mean it WILL happen. For some reason, businesses just don't seem all that keen on the idea of a race to the bottom with ever increasing costs and decreasing revenues.

    10. Re:Backlash by F34nor · · Score: 1

      Bullshit.

      America=Freedom
      Russia=Control

      This simple explanation got people to eat all kinds of dog food for 30+ years.

    11. Re:Backlash by s73v3r · · Score: 1

      Deregulation almost never means an end to monopolies. In fact, it usually means much more entrenched monopolies. If you really want to make a difference, reinstate the mandatory line sharing, strike down any and all local franchise agreements, and not only legalize, but encourage municipalities to build their own fiber networks.

    12. Re:Backlash by s73v3r · · Score: 1

      NO, a huge part of the barrier to entry is the massive costs needed to get started, which have nothing to do with regulation. That, and the costs of tearing up the roads.

    13. Re:Backlash by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 1

      you can vote with your wallet

      So rich people more of a vote than poor people? No thanks, I think I will vote with my vote, for a party that does not just do whatever benefits large corporations the most.

      --
      Palm trees and 8
    14. Re:Backlash by Hatta · · Score: 1

      Why would FOX be in favor of saving NetFlix? More NetFlix means less cable TV subscriptions which means less FOX advertising dollars. Don't be surprised if your F-I-L changes his mind and comes back with a bunch of talking points that have no basis in reality.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    15. Re:Backlash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why not deregulate the industry and disallow the cable company monopolies (such as Comcast for example) out there so that we actually have competition? That way if any ISP decides to bill "multi-tier" approach, you can vote with your wallet?

      There used to be regulation of the telecom industry, and the companies owning the wires were forced to allow other ISPs to offer their own services over them.

      Then Bush de-regulated it, and we've dropped to only the biggest handful of ISPs in the nation, which all collude to keep prices going up while speeds languish. Clearly, that was the wrong way to go.

      You can only vote with your wallet if there's somewhere else to go.

    16. Re:Backlash by Charliemopps · · Score: 1

      I'm a pretty hardcore libertarian... and would agree with you on principle. But the libertarian ideal falls short when it comes to publicly held services like phone, television and internet. If I didn't work in the field myself, I probably wouldn't have the opinion of it that I do, but the fact of the matter is, I know the deepest recesses of both the cable and telecom industries. I've worked in the field, seen how cables are routed... I've worked in the NOC and watched services and equipment be provisioned and deployed and now maintain a database that oversees all of the above and because of my role attend meetings with executives to plan the future of our equipment. There are only 2 ways that wired services can work: Government owned systems like Korea... or heavily regulated monopolies. We have very very loosely regulated monopolies that are cajoled by the government into doing what the government wants through grants and stimulus projects. Within a week of Obama announcing his broadband stimulus plan we had an entire department created with dozen of people dedicated solely to ass raping that stimulus fund. We've been awarded sums of money so large they defy belief to install broadband into neighborhoods that we had already had designs in place and equipment ordered for. That's right, the stimulus went to pay for projects we already had in place. "Shovel ready" as the quote goes I guess. I have fiends that work for other companies and their all doing the exact same thing. It's nothing more than free government money to them.

      Executives have no idea what net neutrality is, they have no interest in the future of the internet. They are only interested in the next financial quarter. There will never be profit in selling an honest product to such a naive audience. We have an entire town comprising 50,000 internet customers that's fed by a single 45mb trunk. We sell 10mb service in that town. I'm not kidding. It's still available. In total we've had about 20 complaints. Out of 50,000 people, 20 complaints. The top executives that approve expenditures to buy more equipment to improve those customers service have absolutely no reason to do so. They don't understand how the equipment works and try talking them into spending a couple of hundred grand to pacify 20 customers that probably only come to a few hundred dollars a month in revenue and they're going to laugh you right out the door. It's not that they are bad people, it's just that they have no understanding of what the problem is, and really have no reason to. 99%+ of their customers are happy. Why spend a lot of money and raise everyones rates to make a few internet nerds happy?

      Every ISP has core routers that are their exit points to other ISPs. You have large trunks that connect to Level3, ATT, Sprint, MCI, etc... The government should mandate that an ISP must provide the speed of service they advertise to those routers 24/hrs a day and should provide an easy means for their customers to measure that speed. It's one thing to measure your speed to some foreign website and say "well that leaves out network so we can't be responsible" if that's the case then the ISP should be required by law to measure the speed of your connect to every possible exit point in their network and should be subject to heavy fines if they deliver anything less than what they are selling. This is a public utility, not a toaster. There is no competition now, nor will there ever be. The government should stay out of just about every aspect of our lives, but in the case of public utilities, they should either be wholly owned by the government or so heavily regulated that they can't pull the shit they are pulling now.

    17. Re:Backlash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly. It's funny that people try to fix issues by attacking symptoms rather than the causes. Intervention by government lead to this situation (which btw really hasn't materialized as many fear it will). Stop the government from picking winners and losers, stop the subsidies and taxes, the monopoly control over the radio spectrum, the licenses, the building restrictions, etc. and you'll get a real, competitive marketplace that is controlled by customers rather than shareholders and government lackeys.

    18. Re:Backlash by ffejie · · Score: 1

      Wo wo wo, you mean that someone who supports an issue explained an issue for the first time to someone who had never heard of the issue and he took the same side?! And this guy is a traditional Republican? Net Neutrality must be right! Oh drat, I'm sure those ninnies at Fox News will distort the truth and get him to switch sides.

      Or.... maybe he'll hear the other side of the story from someone who doesn't support Net Neutrality (FoxNews or otherwise) and realize that your presentation of the facts wasn't exactly unbiased.

      --
      Disagreeing with me does not mean you get to mod me troll.
    19. Re:Backlash by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It is Fox News and Rush Limbaugh, among others, who have been warning you idiots that this was what you were going to get when the FCC created a "Net Neutrality" regulation. They keep telling you that the big corporations like regulation because it lets them get stronger control of the market and you keep telling them to stop shilling for the corporations. Then when new regulations are passed that give more power to the corporations, you blame the people who told you that was going to happen if you kept pushing for more regulations.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    20. Re:Backlash by DrgnDancer · · Score: 1

      And what possible motivation does anyone have to compete here exactly? A new start-up wold have to lay their own cable. That's an insane level of upfront cost for the chance to compete with an entrenched incumbent who don't have to worry about paying off their infrastructure and can thus always charge *slightly* less, give *slightly* higher levels of service, and still make more profit than you until you're squeezed out. Then they can return to the status quo.

      The other big carriers could afford the infrastructure, but why? Even for them it's a big expense, and again all they get for their investment is a chance to compete with an entrenched incumbent. They'd have to, at least temporarily, offer extremely low profit or perhaps even loss leader service in order to compete and pull away an initial customer base. Much better to remain in the markets where you *are* the entrenched incumbent and keep pulling huge profits in.

      In Louisiana some of the local utilities are laying their own fiber and trying to compete, and that seems to work. On the down side, they get sued by the entrenched incumbents (who know they have no case, but are just trying to throw delays and expenses into the process), and they can only do it at reasonable cost because they already have their own conduit laid in. Plus they're a government backed utility, which by some people's definition is even worse than a regulate monopoly. It's also a completely untested model. None of them has yet gotten to the self sustaining point so we don't know if they'll be able to compete or if they'll be any better in the end.

      --
      I don't need a million points of light, just two points of multi-mode fiber and a 10 Gig-E router.
    21. Re:Backlash by Chowderbags · · Score: 1

      Because your first step is less likely to happen than a bill that strongly supports net neutrality and your second step requires more than 3 or 4 companies to prevent collusion.

    22. Re:Backlash by Nimey · · Score: 1

      Because deregulation worked so well for airlines and cable TV.

      --
      Hail Eris, full of mischief...

      E pluribus sanguinem
    23. Re:Backlash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thank you for the insight into the commercial ass-raping of the stimulus fund. I had a hunch that's how these things really work and you confirmed all of my suspicions.

    24. Re:Backlash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As with medical care, I'll probably just opt out. That's the kind of competition we're talking about here.

    25. Re:Backlash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'll admit Anonymously, that I lean right way more than left. But the counter arguments I'm getting from right leaners is mind boggling. Their response is usually, net neutrality is communism, it's a Soros plot, zero innovation from companies unless this goes threw, etc...

      I'm trying to get as many on the right to see the issue for what it really is. BUT the main issue I have is the FCC's ability to regulate the CONTENT of the traffic. That is why the policies need to be amended from the way they have been molded so far. If they telcos can't filter by content, neither can the government.

    26. Re:Backlash by Shark · · Score: 1

      You vote with your vote for/against parties, you vote with your wallet for/against corporations. Ironically, wallet democracy typically is a lot more effective. Companies are very quick to drop strategies that do not sell well.

      --
      Mind the frickin' laser...
    27. Re:Backlash by martinux · · Score: 1

      The ace in the hole for net neutrality is the latest crop of cheap TVs with built-in Netflix and other online services. My in-laws just purchased one a few months ago and they use Netflix constantly. These are dye-in-the-wool, Ann Coulter-reading, FOXNews-watching Republicans. I mentioned to my father-in-law about net neutrality being a big issue. He had never heard of it. When I explained the ramifications for their Netflix usage, his response was to immediately support it. It will be interesting to see this shake out. This is another chance where we can see if FOX and Rush can convince more people to act against their own self interest in support of some bastardization of "freedom."

      To paraphrase the Wako Kid: What did you expect? "Welcome, sonny"? "Make yourself at home"? "Marry my daughter?" You've got to remember that these are just simple Republicans. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know . . . morons."

    28. Re:Backlash by sanosuke001 · · Score: 1

      I've been hoping for this exact change for years. They add rules stating that line owners have to sell their bandwidth wholesale to anyone for phone companies for a while now but nothing for cable companies.

      Disallow the infrastructure owner from selling services and split up Comcast/Time Warner/etc into a utility company with a regional monopoly and a services company. Then, allow any company to come in and sell services.

      --
      -SaNo
    29. Re:Backlash by mldi · · Score: 1

      That makes no sense. Disallowing Comcast and its ilk from doing something is regulation.

      Now if we split Comcast into a content provider and common carrier and deregulated the former while regulating the latter as a utility, that would make sense.

      So.... ruling that people be free isn't freedom?

      --
      If you aren't suspicious of your government's actions, you aren't doing your job as a responsible citizen.
    30. Re:Backlash by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      That's libertarians for you. They'll tell you to dig down to get out of a hole, and when you're deeper in a hole they'll tell you that it's because you didn't dig deep enough.

      Maybe they're trying to dig us to China? ;)

      http://instantrimshot.com/

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    31. Re:Backlash by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      Mod parent Insightful!

      Also, bad news, your libertarian club membership has been revoked for realizing that deregulation doesn't fix absolutely everything (I wish I was kidding).

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    32. Re:Backlash by GiveBenADollar · · Score: 1

      As a Fox News watching republican I'm amused by your comments. As I have stated before the problem with conservatives supporting Net Neutrality is not the intent of it, but rather the different definitions of it. This current FCC/Corporate push is pretty much what most conservative think net neutrality is all about. It's not about freedom, instead it's about government regulation and corporate interests. I don't care if my ISP offers different tier services, but when they start blocking or charging extra for things just because they can it becomes a fight. I don't want the government controlling what content I can access, but I don't want ISPs controlling it with charges either. Data should be treated as data, usage should be treated as usage, and it should all be more like a utility and less like a premium service. The solution isn't to simply treat the internet like a third world street and let everyone drive the way they please with no regard to other drivers, but turning it into police state toll roads isn't a great option either. If you actually talk to people in the modern conservative movement you will find that most of us are more libertarian and less good ol boy republican. The way it is now though, either political party is going to get it wrong, the question isn't what's right, but rather what's the least wrong.

    33. Re:Backlash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the problem was that those lazy ISP owners spent their profits on big homes and fast cars instead
      of buying colocation in each central office in the areas they wanted to service with adsl/sdsl/idsl/etc.

      they also never got their own voice switch to serve pots over adsl or what not.

      basically the telephone companies wanted these small ISPs to grow up to get access to wholesale
      circuit prices.

      and that is why we have CLECs today instead of 100s of small ISPs reselling someone else's service.

    34. Re:Backlash by spitzak · · Score: 1

      Can you point to an actual regulation that says "only this company is allowed".

      I'm certain you are taking "you need to apply for a permit and pay a license fee to dig up the streets" as your big-brother fantasy that somehow this bad state is due to the eeevilll guberment...

    35. Re:Backlash by NotBornYesterday · · Score: 1

      Speaking of FOXNews, here's something from them on net neutrality. It might surprise folks here, should they care to read it.

      --
      I prefer rogues to imbeciles because they sometimes take a rest.
    36. Re:Backlash by inthealpine · · Score: 1

      Democrats and Republicans are out then. Third party seems to have always worked in the past right?

      --
      "In God We Trust, All Others Pay Cash"
    37. Re:Backlash by NotBornYesterday · · Score: 1

      According to that logic, wouldn't ABC, CBS, MSNBC, CNN, et al also be against it?

      --
      I prefer rogues to imbeciles because they sometimes take a rest.
    38. Re:Backlash by inthealpine · · Score: 1

      I worked for Time Warner Cable and Verizon (Fios) and I can tell you that Time Warner's favorite quote to customers is "it's UP TO those speeds Mam/Sir". Non techie people would constantly complain of issues. I mean it wasn't until a few years ago that an official NOC was put in place and the network was actually monitored. The ''up to'' loophole is an ISP standard, but after working at Verizon I can say they at least have technology that normally tests a hair above the customers cap. When a company sells a 20x5 connection and gets a 20x5 connection (even to off vz network), that might be some slight hope.
      The funny thing is that the Feds were not going to let Verizon upgrade to their fiber network. The Feds were more concerned with controlling Verizon with SLAs than technology being upgraded. Feds point of view was they would rather control that 20 yr old copper wire than see Verizon have unregulated fiber. Verizon finally caved and Feds regulated the fiber too.

      Don't get me wrong. I don't have a hard-on for Verizon itself which is why my working for them in past tense. The company, Union and Feds all deserve each other I just wish we weren't paying for all of them to dick each other over.

      --
      "In God We Trust, All Others Pay Cash"
    39. Re:Backlash by Hatta · · Score: 1

      Yes, that would stand to reason.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    40. Re:Backlash by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

      Many communities have regulations that permit only one cable company access to right-of-ways needed to build lines.

      One example is St Paul.

      --
      "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    41. Re:Backlash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're retarded. Go read up on 'natural monopoly'. The huge barrier to entry is not regufuckinglations, it's the cost to lay fiber. How many different competing fiber networks do you want your yard dug up for anyway?

      Bureaucracy ruling from on high? You're hallucinating some sort of evil group of people to make this sound like a bad idea.

    42. Re:Backlash by spitzak · · Score: 1

      Most of the St Paul thing is limits on what Comcast can do and not on any competitor.

      However there is this one regulation that does match what you are saying:

        It regulates "Company's use of the public right-of-way"

      That is a problem and what I guessed at with the "you need a license to dig up the streets". It sounds like perhaps you need much more than a license, like it is impossible. Still I'm not sure if this is any different than a prohibitively expensive license.

      It does expire in 2013, but I would bet 100% that there will be no competition as to who gets the franchise next...

    43. Re:Backlash by xenapan · · Score: 0

      They have ulterior motives then. Like bypassing the Great firewall of China! That said, their rates and speeds are pretty top notch!

      --
      insert funny sig here
    44. Re:Backlash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not regulate. Just disallow monopolistic agreements with government bodies. Other ISPs/communities can run their own cables. Sure, the big boys have an advantage, but it'll still bring in some pricing pressure if anyone would start running wires/fiber without the telcos having a say in it.

    45. Re:Backlash by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      They keep telling you that the big corporations like regulation because it lets them get stronger control of the market

      Big corps like regulation when they get to write it. I bet none of the megacorps fined in billions of dollars in EU for anti-competitive business practices (such as, well, Microsoft) liked it one bit.

    46. Re:Backlash by tweak13 · · Score: 1

      They add rules stating that line owners have to sell their bandwidth wholesale to anyone for phone companies for a while now

      You should check again, all the rules requiring the telcos to share lines are gone now. Pretty much for no other reason than they complained that they weren't making enough money.

    47. Re:Backlash by fishexe · · Score: 1

      I said disallow the cable monopolies, not the companies. Please re-read again.

      You re-read again: "Disallowing Comcast and its ilk from doing something is regulation." He wasn't saying disallow the companies (from existing) either, he said disallow them "from doing something", namely from operating a monopoly.

      In many municipalities the Cable companies have a government-sanctioned monopoly. That means that if you would like to unsubscribe from the Comcast and get a different cable line -- you can not because the said municipalities do not allow them into the market.

      That part is true. However, it's not universal. In many areas cable companies simply own the private lines and it's too expensive for a competitor to lay down cable lines, so "allowing competition" would mean forcing the company that owns the cable TV lines to allow other companies to offer service over its property. If every local cable monopoly were as you described then your solution of deregulation would work, but as it is to create real competition in a majority of local markets you would have to also mandate private lines be leased to competitors, which is additional regulation.

      --
      "I don't care about the Constitution!" --Bill O'Reilly, November 17, 2009
    48. Re:Backlash by fishexe · · Score: 1

      Don't bother, he's probably already drunk the libertarian Kool-Aid and convinced himself that any ill apparently caused by lack of regulation is really caused by too much regulation, evidence be damned!

      --
      "I don't care about the Constitution!" --Bill O'Reilly, November 17, 2009
    49. Re:Backlash by djprior · · Score: 1

      It amazes me that partisanship and being so far up your parties ass can make you this blind. Guess who is voting for this law... Liberals who want more government control... who is voting against it and trying to stop this crap law... conservatives. But somehow this is still conservatives fault? Get your head out of the donkey's ass and wake up to what is really going on. Conservatives want the government out of our lives and more personal responsibility and the internet is no different. So get out of your MSNBC, Keith Olbermann house and get some fresh air.

  8. Re:Why would the Chair sellout? by dreamchaser · · Score: 1

    He was not only appointed by Obama, he was part of Obama's campaign. You should save your partisan assumptions for the time you spend on the Daily Kos.

  9. Color me Stupid by Sounder40 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Obama's net neutrality pledge was one of the reasons I voted for him after voting for Republican presidential candidates for so many years. (That, and attempting to right the wrong of voting for dubya--twice.) It is now clear to me that they are ALL a bunch of lying hypocrites. And that I'm just not as smart as I thought I was...

    --
    A clever person solves a problem, A wise person avoids it. -Einstein
    1. Re:Color me Stupid by ikirudennis · · Score: 1

      The real point is: Given the recent election, could Obama afford to actually put up a fight against this? I don't like it, but it's the best we can hope for given the current political climate.

    2. Re:Color me Stupid by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The election went the way it did because Obama never puts up a fight over anything.

    3. Re:Color me Stupid by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I voted for him only because the Reps were repeating so many ridiculous lies about him... I figured if they couldn't come up with real criticism then he must be better. In retrospect, I still think he was the better choice, but he's certainly not the solution to all our problems... honestly though, with the current conservative climate, I'm not sure even FDR could get anything respectable done.

    4. Re:Color me Stupid by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And that I'm just not as smart as I thought I was...

      Well, you did admit to voting for Bush

    5. Re:Color me Stupid by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Net neutrality is a great idea... but I'm nervous about what happens after we open that door. Every time the population asks government for something, politicians start scheming how they can achieve other goals at the same time. Once the FCC regulates one aspect, it's simple to slip new regulations in as future riders. Suddenly it's simple to "think of the children" or whatnot and soon we can't access the "bad" part of the web and the government knows more about our packets than Google.

    6. Re:Color me Stupid by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I'd rather see him fight and fail than see him pass something that he said he wouldn't. People didn't vote for him to be weak.

    7. Re:Color me Stupid by GayBliss · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The election went the way it did because Obama never puts up a fight over anything.

      Unfortunately he doesn't realize that fact and thinks it's because he is fighting too much, so expect him to compromise on everything now and cave in to the demands of Republicans. He thinks making them happy will make everyone happy.

    8. Re:Color me Stupid by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Obama's net neutrality pledge was one of the reasons I voted for him after voting for Republican presidential candidates for so many years. (That, and attempting to right the wrong of voting for dubya--twice.) It is now clear to me that they are ALL a bunch of lying hypocrites. And that I'm just not as smart as I thought I was...

      So... how you liking the 2 trillion in change?

    9. Re:Color me Stupid by Nadaka · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      You voted for GWB? TWICE? The first time I won't fault you, everyone has different opinions. The second time, you knew he was a feces throwing monkey and Cheney was the antichrist and you voted for them anyway?

    10. Re:Color me Stupid by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, you just fell pray to one of the common election time blunders. The possibility of actual 'Hope' and 'Change', and a modern president representing the 'people of the United States', not the 'Corporations of the United States'.

      How cynical is it, if I vote on election day, but don't vote for president at all?

    11. Re:Color me Stupid by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, we could also choose to not do anything. Doing nothing would be preferable in this case.

    12. Re:Color me Stupid by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Interesting

      Sadly you're very uninformed.

      Anyone who bothered to actually learn about the actual election talking points and apply even a tiny bit of intelligence could absolutely see almost everything Obama said was a lie. McCain, on the other hand, consistently told the truth.

      The simple fact of the matter is, most people don't want to actually know anything. They want to remain dumb and ignorant. This is actually well established. The facts of the matter are, people wanted to be lied to, even knowing that there was a good chance they were being lied to.

      On the other side of the coin, people specifically hated on McCain exactly because he told everyone the truth. People don't want the truth, they want to be lied to. That's the facts!

      Because of the massive level of ignorance and willful stupidity of those who voted for Obama, it is extremely unlikely another politician, at least in our lifetime, will make the mistake of actually trying to communicate the truth. The facts of the matter are, McCain was punished at the polls for being truthful with you. In return, you gave him the middle finger and willfully voted for lies. This fact will absolutely not be missed by future politicians. Those who voted for Obama essentially ensured a future of nothing but dishonest, lying politicians.

      After the election, the duplicity of the Republicans became extremely clear. For the first year, Obama more or less followed the plans laid out by the Republicans. He basically followed the literal plans laid out by McCain. The Republicans then went on a rampage shooting at him for doing, more or less, exactly what the Republicans, before the election, said they would all do. Factually, Obama never had any other choice for most of these decisions, which is why it was painfully obvious Obama was lying all along.

      The lessons learned from all this? The two party system is inherently broken. The two parties are a difference without distinction. With every vote for R or D, you are clearly communicating that you demand lies, corruption, and a government whos primary interest is the government and corporations. If you vote for an R or a D, you literally have given up your right to complain. And literally, if you voted for Obama, you are directly responsible for carving the truth from all elections for the foreseeable future; anywhere you see Rs and Ds.

      So if you really want change, you will not vote R or D - otherwise, you're willfully voting for more lies. So do you really want change? Or lies? If you really want change, its impossible to vote R or D; otherwise you're just demanding more lies. Which at the end of the day, isn't all that surprising given that's what most people actually want - to be lied to and remain ignorant.

    13. Re:Color me Stupid by rwv · · Score: 2

      I voted for him after voting for Republican presidential candidates for so many years.

      Vote early and vote often. There are other offices where power is controlled in the government. The US Constitution, in fact, requires that the president not be able to enact any sort of change (except maybe declaring war for a year or two) without support of his Congress.

      The Congress during the past two years, despite being Democrat majority, has been hugely influenced by obstructionist Republicans.

      At the end of the day... these stalemates in Congress benefit the people because they prevent any sort of rapid change. The government, spurred by slow change, has done pretty well over the last two hundred years. Leave rapid change for businesses and individuals.

      Returning to the point of Net Neutrality... it's not the "big fish to fry" right now and if there are negative implications on end users I'd encourage you to support "Pro-Net Nuetrality" Congressman for the next decade or two until legislation can be enacted that smacks down Comcast and the other evil network MegaCorporations.

    14. Re:Color me Stupid by Bill_the_Engineer · · Score: 1

      The real point is: Given the recent election, could Obama afford to actually put up a fight against this? I don't like it, but it's the best we can hope for given the current political climate.

      There's a difference between doing something because you believe it's the right thing to do, and doing something because you think it's popular. It takes a leader to do the former, and a poll watching politician to do the latter. I think recent history offers enough evidence toward Obama being a poll watching salesman.

      I think with Obama's caving on tax cuts for the wealthy and Obama's caving on net neutrality, I'm beginning to see a trend. Now that's change I saw coming...

      --
      These comments are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of my employer or colleagues...
    15. Re:Color me Stupid by dragonhunter21 · · Score: 1

      When did this place turn into FOX?

      --
      Sent from my CR-48
    16. Re:Color me Stupid by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      in the wise words of homer simpson "you tried your best and failed miserably, the lesson is never try"

    17. Re:Color me Stupid by Sounder40 · · Score: 1

      I don't disagree with you, but if the democrats had put up a candidate that was at ALL appealing, I wouldn't have repeated my first mistake. I mean really... Kerry? So many better choices back then than him.

      I actually met GWB before he held any office, back in his drinking days. Even then, even at his worst, he was a man of sincerity and integrity. I've met other congressmen and senators and to a one, they all care deeply about their constituency. Unfortunately, you can't be sincere, stand on principle, or have integrity and be a successful politician.

      And while voting for one candidate over another may be a mistake, it's really not stupid per se. It's always a "lesser of two evils" decision. My mistake, like most of my fellow citizens, is believing anything that comes out of their mouths. Not that they are not sincere or that they don't care because they do. But the system is set up such that they will be ostracized and won't get elected unless they compromise their principles. Don't believe me? You watch the voting records of any on the holier-than-thou Tea Party members. NOT ONE of them will stand on principles. Everyone of them will vote the party line.

      I'm afraid we are going to see the most stagnant congress in the history of the United States.

      --
      A clever person solves a problem, A wise person avoids it. -Einstein
    18. Re:Color me Stupid by gstoddart · · Score: 1

      (That, and attempting to right the wrong of voting for dubya--twice.)

      "fool me once, shame on, shame on you. Fool me, you can’t get fooled again.” —President George W. Bush, Nashville, Tenn., Sept. 17, 2002

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    19. Re:Color me Stupid by oldhack · · Score: 0

      If you'd stopped drinking cool aid, you wouldn't ask such a stupid question.

      --
      Fuck systemd. Fuck Redhat. Fuck Soylent, too. Wait, scratch the last one.
    20. Re:Color me Stupid by dragonhunter21 · · Score: 0

      It's Kool-Aid, thank you.

      --
      Sent from my CR-48
    21. Re:Color me Stupid by Nadaka · · Score: 1

      You are right, even as a liberal I think Kerry sucked. You also had the option, difficult as it may be, to remove the incumbent from your party ballot in the primaries.

    22. Re:Color me Stupid by Conspiracy_Of_Doves · · Score: 1

      How do you figure it is?

      FOX hates Obama because he isn't a conservative. We hate Obama because he might as well be a conservative for as much as he's working for them.

    23. Re:Color me Stupid by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      What do you mean? Obama isn't interested in fighting this. This has been what he has meant by "net neutrality" all along. The people who supported the outcome of the recent election have been trying to tell you that this was what a "net neutrality" regulation would look like. The current political climate means that there is a chance that this will get undone. If the last election had gone the other way, this would be much worse.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    24. Re:Color me Stupid by fahlesr1 · · Score: 1

      Fire them all. How can we expect 20 and 30 year incumbents to represent anything other than the political elite? After 30 years in office they have no idea what normal life is like. Heck, there's at least one congress critter who admitted that he's never used an ATM!

      Honestly we need two major reforms. The first being term limits for both houses of congress. The second would be to repeal the 17th amendment. The reason for repealing the 17th amendment is to give the states some representation in the federal government again. When the states have no representation the Fed over reaches, which is what we have today.

    25. Re:Color me Stupid by interkin3tic · · Score: 1

      It is now clear to me that they are ALL a bunch of lying hypocrites

      While all candidates at the national level have their own interests above everyone else's, you still need to choose the ones that have your interests second rather than someone else's interests second.

      In Obama's case, I feel like he fits that description. Either way, he partially sold the internet to the highest bidder in order to avoid a fight and hang onto power, but to his credit, we did get -something- wheras under Bush et al, I think telecoms would have gotten all they wanted right off the bat.

      That's the best you can hope to do in an election: keep out the ones who would screw you over the most.

    26. Re:Color me Stupid by dragonhunter21 · · Score: 1

      It's not the reasons for hate, it's the blind hate I take offense to. Obama could be (and likely is) doing everything he can to fulfill his campaign promisies, but because the conservatives have control of congress, they get to do what they wish. If Obama's bills fail due to a Republican filibuster, then they get to claim that Obama isn't living up to his campiagn promisies.

      --
      Sent from my CR-48
    27. Re:Color me Stupid by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, how was he caving to republicans when the republicans are the only ones who voted against it? The Democratic majority are the ones that passed the rules.

    28. Re:Color me Stupid by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      Yeah it's all "compromise" this and "bipartisan" that...

      The Republicans have declared political war on the Democrats, many years ago. The time for talk and compromise is LONG OVER, contrary to what anyone wants to pretend.

      But when his party had the power to force decisions through, he wanted diplomacy.

      I swear if Obama was being mugged and a gun fell out of the sky and into his hands, he'd ask the mugger if he wanted to bargain for it.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    29. Re:Color me Stupid by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It blows my mind that so many people think there is some difference between the Democrats and Republicans. They are merely different branches of the Corporatist Party.

    30. Re:Color me Stupid by ndogg · · Score: 1

      Obama isn't a hypocrite. He's a spineless weasel. There is a difference.

      --
      // file: mice.h
      #include "frickin_lasers.h"
    31. Re:Color me Stupid by inthealpine · · Score: 0

      Obama got almost everything he pushed for in his first 2 years. The people didn't like the shit that came out the first two years and now the people have removed some of Obama's power. I doubt Obama will compromise too much, although that will get him removed from office. If Obama worked with Republicans the Democrats would hate him for it, but they will vote for him anyways and in two years some of the 'middle' might forget why they started to not like him.
      I hope he gets removed next election, he's a twit. There has to be Democrats or Republicans that can do something useful for the country.

      --
      "In God We Trust, All Others Pay Cash"
    32. Re:Color me Stupid by Digital+Vomit · · Score: 1

      Vote early and vote often.

      I'm sorry, but this bit of advice has had a pretty terrible track record over the past few decades.

      --
      Modern copyright is theft of culture from everyone and it retards the progress of the useful arts and sciences.
    33. Re:Color me Stupid by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 1

      I'm just wondering what you call the passage of the current Healthcare plan? I mean, some people were calling it the Deathpanel plan.... seems like there was a fight there.

      --
      Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
    34. Re:Color me Stupid by iceaxe · · Score: 1

      I think what has happened is that while most of us could agree on a goal (prosperity, peace, security) we have become intractably entrenched in our largely foolish and misinformed opinions about how to get there.

      And of course, the plutocrats, they be laughing all the way to the bank while the rest of the folk lob grenades at each other from their trenches. Keeps 'em distracted, you know.

      --
      WALSTIB!
    35. Re:Color me Stupid by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't feel bad. I voted for Obama for this, and many other issues that I felt a Republican candidate would have screwed up royally. it had always been known that the Republicans were for Big Business, and the Democrats for the Little Person.

      Well, guess that has gone out the window.
      Looks like I will just have to throw darts at the names of the candidates to decide where to cast my vote, since they all lie, cheat, steal, etc.

  10. the people have *already* voted against it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    TFA says: "Instead of protecting openness on wireless Internet devices like the iPhone and Droid, the Commission has exempted the mobile Internet from Net Neutrality protections"

    Guess what? Nobody cares. If mobile users cared about openness, they *wouldn't have bought iPhones and Droids*. Those are closed and locked down devices.

    People have already voted with their dollars against neutrality. And if the people don't care, the cause is lost.

    Further, they have voted with their time and effort against open standards on the internet. They chose the closed facebook over any open alternative, and similar for dozens of other things. They'll pick closed IM protocols over open ones for example.

    You cannot cram freedom down people's throats. They have to want it, and by and large, they DON'T. They're happier with authoritarian control, because then someone else does the thinking for them.

    1. Re:the people have *already* voted against it by Pojut · · Score: 1

      I agree with most of your post, but...

      Guess what? Nobody cares. If mobile users cared about openness, they *wouldn't have bought iPhones and Droids*. Those are closed and locked down devices.

      lolwut? I fail to see how Android is "closed", since anyone can put what they want on the Android Market without going through an approval process. Not to mention pretty much every Android phone (except the ones on AT&T) can install apps from any source simply by ticking an option box.

      Hell, even the iPhone isn't "closed", so long as you don't mind jailbreaking it (which, at this point, is super easy.)

    2. Re:the people have *already* voted against it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It's closed because you need to jailbreak it to get root access. Carriers can refuse updates if you do, and so on.

      Buying a locked down device but claiming it's open because "I know how to break the lock" isn't openness. And very few people actually do that - only a few technically literate folks, so for the common Joe, his vote for Android or iOS IS a vote for giving up control over his own devices to some company.

    3. Re:the people have *already* voted against it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Guess what? Nobody cares. If mobile users cared about openness, they *wouldn't have bought iPhones and Droids*. Those are closed and locked down devices.

      Are you high?

    4. Re:the people have *already* voted against it by imakemusic · · Score: 1

      Hell, even the iPhone isn't "closed", so long as you don't mind jailbreaking it (which, at this point, is super easy.)

      So...it's not closed as long as you open it?

      --
      Brain surgery - it's not rocket science!
    5. Re:the people have *already* voted against it by s73v3r · · Score: 1

      No, you're wrong. Buying an iPhone or a Droid has nothing to do with Net Neutrality. Openness of the device has nothing to do with openness of the net connection. Also, name one "open" competitor to Facebook back in the day.

    6. Re:the people have *already* voted against it by n_djinn · · Score: 1

      What mainstream phone has even been "open". First you are paying the minimum of a 30 day contract to use the phone on someones "network". That regardless of ALL ELSE makes it closed, add you have to pay for "data", then pay for apps (you are paying with either info, ads or $). To put it another way; Phones by their very nature are closed and bound systems.

      --
      I do not play in the middle of the road
    7. Re:the people have *already* voted against it by istartedi · · Score: 1

      You cannot cram freedom down people's throats. They have to want it, and by and large, they DON'T. They're happier with authoritarian control, because then someone else does the thinking for them

      This is the same illogic that drives radical Free Software people, ie, "Linux Zealots", the most famous of which is RMS.

      Non-technical people have no need to diddle with the technical innards of devices. The fact that this doesn't enter into their purchasing decisions doesn't make them "sheeple". To suggest so is patronizing, insulting.

      A device that meets their needs and is closed actually provides them more freedom than one that doesn't meet their needs and is open.

      You can't cram Free Software Movement ideology down people's throats. You can't even cram it down my throat, and plenty of people have tried. I chose the best solution for the job. Sometimes it's closed. Sometimes it's open. This does not make me a sheeple.

      --
      For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
    8. Re:the people have *already* voted against it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Carriers can refuse warranty (and they are in their damn right to, considering you can break the phone if you jailbreak it), but rooting the phone is one click on an app from the Android Market, so that's pretty much as open as you can get.

  11. Poor choice of article for linking by Saishuuheiki · · Score: 1

    While I agree with the articles stance on the Net Neutrality issue being passed, the article fails to mention why the bill is bad. It just repeatedly says how horrible it is without giving any reasons.

    When there are so many problems with the bill, the least they could do is mention them.

    (Personally, I do agree that it has many problems. I can only base this on articles I've read elsewhere since the one on huffington is all rhetoric and no fact)

  12. Obama is a complete and utter failure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Although, I still have to chuckle at all the passionate supporters at campaign time. They really were convinced he'd reinvent america, now with more unicorns and rainbows.

    Americans got EXACTLY the representation they deserved, as always.

    1. Re:Obama is a complete and utter failure by Nadaka · · Score: 1

      I would rather see Obama fail to do anything worthwhile rather than to watch McCain burn our nation to the ground.

    2. Re:Obama is a complete and utter failure by jandersen · · Score: 3, Informative

      Although, I still have to chuckle at all the passionate supporters at campaign time. They really were convinced he'd reinvent america, now with more unicorns and rainbows.

      You sound like such a bitter person. And why is it that Obama can't get anything done? Is it because his plans are all wrong-headed? Or is it because no matter what he attempts, there is a group of reactionaries that going to be against no matter what and no matter what lies and other indecencies they need to commit? America has become so poisonous that even if the Messiah appeared in his full glory with the angels dancing in the sky, he would be unable to do a thing, because he had the wrong shade of opinion about gays or whatever. Against stupidity the gods themselves labor in vain.

    3. Re:Obama is a complete and utter failure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How exactly would he have done that?

    4. Re:Obama is a complete and utter failure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would rather see Obama fail...

      So do I. Because if he succeeds, it's America that fails. He's both incompetent and dangerous. Fucktards such as yourself are responsible for this shit!

    5. Re:Obama is a complete and utter failure by siddesu · · Score: 1

      Obama can't do shit at home because of the same reason every other US president couldn't do shit - the president ain't got the power. The people who believed his campaign and voted for him on the basis of his campaign promises, only show ginormous lack of knowledge about how the US operates. Now, those Obama voters, who also voted democrat in the parliamentary elections ... they should be really angry.

      Incidentally, this lack of power to do stuff at home is also why capable presidents (like, say, FDR, Nixon or even Clinton) usually excel abroad, where there are fewer limitations to what they can do. What truly speaks of Obama's (lack of) ability is his total failure to show any leadership internationally, despite the huge amount of goodwill that the retirement of Bush brought.

      He's almost as bad as Bush (in the sense that he's an inexperienced and unsophisticated demagogue, who lacks interest in foreign affairs), and the reason he isn't actually worse is most likely the fact that he just isn't doing anything at all.

      Or maybe he's just a sign that the US is, like Britain in 1900, ready to roll off from the top.

    6. Re:Obama is a complete and utter failure by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      There is plenty of cases where Obama could do something, but didn't; and some where his administration has explicitly supported the bad guys. I'm sorry, but at this point you have to be deluded to believe in a "good guy who is getting obstructed" myth.

    7. Re:Obama is a complete and utter failure by sdnick · · Score: 1

      And why is it that Obama can't get anything done? Is it because his plans are all wrong-headed? Or is it because no matter what he attempts, there is a group of reactionaries that going to be against no matter what and no matter what lies and other indecencies they need to commit?

      What exactly has Obama tried to do as far as net neutrality goes? Most of the FCC commissioners, including the chairman, were appointed by him. Obama's political party still controls both houses of Congress for another month. So why this FCC ruling? The "reactionaries" didn't want this FCC ruling, they dispute the authority of the FCC to regulate the Internet at all.

      Maybe, just maybe, Obama's just another politician who will tell voters what they want to hear in election years and pay the most attention to whoever has the most money the rest of the time. Just a notion.

      And this FCC ruling is the worst of all possible worlds - it gives Time-Warner, Comcast, etc. the regulatory cover to turn their overpriced, inadequate "broadband" services into the same walled-gardens of fail that the mobile carriers currently inflict on their customers. And since we've gotten the FCC involved in Internet regulation, we can look forward to more meddling in the years to come to support anti-piracy and "anti-terrorism" efforts.

  13. Does anyone have a link ? by mbone · · Score: 1

    Does anyone have a link to the actual rule they will be voting on ?

    1. Re:Does anyone have a link ? by janeuner · · Score: 2

      There is none. The FCC chairman made a speech, and everyone is reacting to that. The big points are:

      1) ISP cannot block any legal content.
      2) ISP can throttle anything they want.
      3) Wireless carriers can do whatever they want.

      Basically, your ISP can continue doing exactly what it is currently doing.

    2. Re:Does anyone have a link ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Like this? The original proposed rulemaking document is on the right-hand side towards the bottom. AKA 09-93 (From October 2009)

    3. Re:Does anyone have a link ? by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      Like this [fcc.gov]? The original proposed rulemaking document is on the right-hand side towards the bottom.

      The original NPRM isn't what they are actually voting on now, its just the original proposal. I think that at least one draft later than the original NPRM has become public, but even that isn't the final order that is being voted on.

    4. Re:Does anyone have a link ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's ok, right? I don't have any problems with my ISP service.

  14. What did you expect? by sageres · · Score: 0

    Was it not obvious that "Hope" and "Change" was nothing more then a slogan and the Great Orator with Teleprompter took everyone for a ride? The mob followed him blindly... Don't feel bad, it happens all the time regardless of the politicians' political affiliations. I believe it was Nikita Khrushchev who once said, "Politicians are the same all over. They promise to build bridges even when there are no rivers."

  15. Can someone give me some details please by Itchyeyes · · Score: 1

    While TFA does a lot of ranting and raving about the upcoming regulation, it doesn't actually give any details about what's in the regulation. One of the linked articles does a bit better, telling you what the bill lacks (seemingly any restrictions on paid prioritization, which makes me wonder how you can actually call it a "net neutrality" bill at all), but doesn't say anything about what the bill does include.

    Can someone please tell me what's actually in this bill?

    1. Re:Can someone give me some details please by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      SNAFU. Uncle Charlie and Big Bubba says bend over, relax and enjoy it. Details incoming.

    2. Re:Can someone give me some details please by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      While TFA does a lot of ranting and raving about the upcoming regulation, it doesn't actually give any details about what's in the regulation.

      That's because the actual order being voted on has neither been published nor leaked; only earlier versions and comments by commissioners.

      Everyone is reading their own fears into the vote, and both proponents and opponents of net neutrality are portraying it as virtually the end of the world.

      One of the linked articles does a bit better, telling you what the bill lacks (seemingly any restrictions on paid prioritization, which makes me wonder how you can actually call it a "net neutrality" bill at all),

      There is no "bill". There is an FCC order that is being voted on by the FCC. While drafts of the order have been published, the order actually being voted on has not. Anyone who has made claims about what it contains has done so on the basis of either assuming language in prior drafts remains unchanged, or interpreting statements made by commissioners. Mostly, aside from the prior draft, this seems to come from a Dec. 1 speech by the FCC chair on the proposal, though a lot of the interpretations go very far from what was actually said by the chairman. For instance, the chairman actually said:

      The proposed rules also recognize that broadband providers must have the ability and investment incentives to build out and run their networks. Universal high-speed Internet access is a vital national goal that will require very substantial private sector investment in our 21st Century digital infrastructure. For our global competitiveness, and to harness the opportunities of broadband for all Americans, we want world-leading broadband networks in the United States that are both the freest and the fastest in the world.

      To this end, broadband providers need meaningful flexibility to manage their networks -- for example, to deal with traffic that’s harmful to the network or unwanted by users, and to address the effects of congestion. Reasonable network management is an important part of the proposal, recognizing that what is reasonable will take account of the network technology and architecture involved.

      The record also demonstrates the importance of business innovation to promote network investment and efficient use of networks, including measures to match price to cost such as usage-based pricing.

      A slashdot poster in this thread has reduced this to "no restrictions on paid prioritization", which clearly isn't what was stated.

      The chairman went on to say this:

      The record in our proceeding reflects both the importance of openness principles to mobile broadband and the appropriateness of recognizing differences between fixed and mobile broadband. This is not a new point, but one that I’ve made consistently since the beginning of this proceeding. For example, mobile broadband is at an earlier stage of development than fixed broadband, and is evolving rapidly.

      Accordingly, the proposal takes important but measured steps in this area -- including transparency and a basic no-blocking rule. Under the framework, the FCC would closely monitor the development of the mobile broadband market and be prepared to step in to further address anti-competitive or anti-consumer conduct as appropriate.

      The same slashdot poster characterized this as "wireless providers can continue to do whatever they want".

      Again, not quite was stated.

      Can someone please tell me what's actually in this bill?

      Its not a bill, and no one can tell you exactly what is in it.

    3. Re:Can someone give me some details please by Itchyeyes · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the clarifications. TFA had me very confused.

    4. Re:Can someone give me some details please by spitzak · · Score: 1

      Yes please, can anybody say clearly what this bill does:

      1. It does nothing at all (pretty much what the Huffington Post says)

      2. It does something, but not much, toward Net Neutrality

      3. It has some insidious other regulation that has nothing to do with Net Neutrality that will gives the goverment more control over the internet (this seems to be the sudden flip-flop of all the anti-NN people here, suddenly they are all saying "Oh I'm all for NN, but not for a regulation because it will be misues". Where the f**k was that argument a week ago, huh? Still you may be right, but only if somebody points out where this bill does something nasty, rather than doing nothing.

  16. Correction... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "it's become clear that this FCC chairman crafted it with the sole purpose of winning the bribes of AT&T and cable lobbyists"

    FTFY

  17. Re:Why would the Chair sellout? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Julius Genachowsk
    Appointed by Obama

    I assume the latter if he's bending-over to appease the megacorps.

    Ha! so you think there's a difference between how the two parties appease their corporate masters?
    And to be clear, it's not him who's getting bent over, it's YOU.

  18. Unsurprising... by HerculesMO · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I've been reading Matt Taibbi's book, "Griftopia" (http://www.amazon.com/Griftopia-Machines-Vampire-Breaking-America/dp/0385529953), and having worked in finance for ~10 years, I'm coming to realize more and more that the powers that be -- corporations, CEOs, and everybody that's basically not *you* are the people who are going to run the US for the coming future. A leaked memo from Citigroup (http://www.scribd.com/doc/36059255/23321255-Citigroup-Mar-5-2006-Plutonomy-Report-Leaked-Citigroup-Memo-Part1) has already declared the US a Plutocracy (rule by the wealthy).

    This is just another shot in the arm against a citizenry whose arms are already falling off from the shots before. The FCC coming up with a plan to (surprise surprise) support the plutocracy that we've already been labelled by Wall Street is not even a stretch any more. And while the Tea Party clamors about how government is trying to socialize everything, they miss that problem that the government has been co-opted in stealing America as a whole from the citizens themselves, and they are happy to have the folks in the Tea Party carry their banner without realizing what damage they are doing.

    I am a bit demoralized nowadays about all this -- and I'd love to take action but I don't know how. So while we as nerds who normally argue, bitch, and complain can actually stand up and figure a way to do something about this (short of something 4chan would do), then I'd be all for it. Let's strategize. Let's plan. And let's execute in the perfect ways I know that we can do thousands of lines of code, deploying hundreds of servers, or anything else "IT" that we do.

    I'm here to start the call to arms, I just don't know what to do after that.

    --
    The price is always right if someone else is paying.
    1. Re:Unsurprising... by countertrolling · · Score: 1

      Let's strategize. Let's plan. And let's execute in the perfect ways I know that we can do...

      Let's just fire up a fatty on the White House lawn.

      --
      For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
    2. Re:Unsurprising... by Jimmy+King · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I am a bit demoralized nowadays about all this -- and I'd love to take action but I don't know how. So while we as nerds who normally argue, bitch, and complain can actually stand up and figure a way to do something about this (short of something 4chan would do), then I'd be all for it. Let's strategize. Let's plan. And let's execute in the perfect ways I know that we can do thousands of lines of code, deploying hundreds of servers, or anything else "IT" that we do.

      I'm here to start the call to arms, I just don't know what to do after that.

      This is my problem, too. Telling the government what we want and what is right hasn't worked. Voting hasn't worked. I'm certain there must be a few more steps we can take before attempting to shoot government leaders is the right answer, though. I just don't have a clue what those next steps might be.

    3. Re:Unsurprising... by sarhjinian · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You want to know what to do? Vote for candidates that both sides of the aisle don't like. You know, the candidates who are fundamentally incompatible with corporatism. And no, this doesn't mean libertarians. Libertarianism is useful idiocy for the wealthy, which is why hundreds of millions of dollars and hundreds of hours of video are shovelled at Tea Party candidates while the Greens have to make do with table scraps.

      You wanted hope? You wanted change? You should have voted for Nader.

      --
      --srj/mmv
    4. Re:Unsurprising... by ikarous · · Score: 2

      The link in your post is dead. This one seems to work: http://www.scribd.com/doc/6674234/Citigroup-Oct-16-2005-Plutonomy-Report-Part-1

    5. Re:Unsurprising... by HeckRuler · · Score: 1

      Well I'd vote for you.

    6. Re:Unsurprising... by HerculesMO · · Score: 2

      Nobody else would. I'm an agnostic who was born into a Muslim family so it's a non-starter for me.

      --
      The price is always right if someone else is paying.
    7. Re:Unsurprising... by HerculesMO · · Score: 1

      I forgot we can use HTML markup on Slashdot. Pardon me -- years of forum posts and I expect the damn thing will autolink.

      --
      The price is always right if someone else is paying.
    8. Re:Unsurprising... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Soap: FAILED
      Ballot: FAILED
      Jury: IN PROGRESS
      Ammo: PENDING

    9. Re:Unsurprising... by chainLynx · · Score: 1

      Think of how any positive, lasting social change has come about: popular movements. Women's rights, civil rights, labor rights, etc... every single time a bunch of people got angry, informed, and organized and refused to go home until their demands were met. If we had a million strong rally outside the White House, you'd be sure Obama wouldn't cave again and again to the fringe right and the business lobbies.

    10. Re:Unsurprising... by Teckla · · Score: 1

      I am a bit demoralized nowadays about all this -- and I'd love to take action but I don't know how. So while we as nerds who normally argue, bitch, and complain can actually stand up and figure a way to do something about this (short of something 4chan would do), then I'd be all for it. Let's strategize. Let's plan. And let's execute in the perfect ways I know that we can do thousands of lines of code, deploying hundreds of servers, or anything else "IT" that we do.

      Short of a 100% peer-to-peer network based on wireless mesh technology, I'm not sure anything can be done. The U.S. is owned by the wealthy and by mega-corporations, and it does not appear that will ever change. We even have a growing population of "little people" that are fighting on behalf of the wealthy and mega-corporations, rather than looking after their own self interest. It boggles the mind.

      Alas, a radio geek friend of mine told me 100% peer-to-peer wireless mesh networks don't scale very large, and is not likely to be a feasible solution to the Internet becoming less and less fair and more and more owned by fewer and fewer corporate interests. Oh well.

    11. Re:Unsurprising... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      "And while the Tea Party clamors about how government is trying to socialize everything, they miss that problem that the government has been co-opted in stealing America as a whole from the citizens themselves"

      Excuse me, who told you this? Is this what they tell you on the Daily show or on Colbert I suppose?

      TPM is not simply an anti-socialism movement, we stand for conservatism and the Constitution first and only. Corporate-cronyism is a frequent topic and well understood by conservatives to be a threat.

      Perhaps it is you and the likes of you who need to wake up. Did you vote for Obama I ask? Do you know where he got all of his campaign money from? It happens to be no surprise to us that the big business, unions and the state are all in this game together, working to defeat you and the Constitution, with the goal of enslaving you.

      You lot prattle on here with such authority and presumptuousness, you support the statist blindly and frankly don't even know what the hell you are talking about.

    12. Re:Unsurprising... by Hatta · · Score: 1

      I've been reading Matt Taibbi's book, "Griftopia" (http://www.amazon.com/Griftopia-Machines-Vampire-Breaking-America/dp/0385529953), and having worked in finance for ~10 years, I'm coming to realize more and more that the powers that be -- corporations, CEOs, and everybody that's basically not *you* are the people who are going to run the US for the coming future.

      Did it really take that long for you to figure that out? That's something most of us come to grips with in high school. Not only has will it be this way for the forseeable future, it's been this way my entire life.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    13. Re:Unsurprising... by Hatta · · Score: 3

      Start by shooting business leaders. They need to learn that if the justice system isn't working for the American people we have other ways to get justice.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    14. Re:Unsurprising... by BJ_Covert_Action · · Score: 2

      Well, we nerds have access to a lot more technology than just IT servers and programming code. I am pretty sure there are nerds from every walk of life on here. Myself, I'm a space nerd. I can tell you how to design the control systems of spacecraft, plus a few other nifty tricks. So add that skill to your basket of nerd tricks.

      Anyways, I don't want to start rambling, but if you really want a call to arms, then the action that I think you/we could take that would be best would to be to start our own propaganda campaigns. Right now, the plutocracy, as you call it, has a massive stranglehold on much of America's opinions (T.V.). We nerds made a dent in that with the internet (and that dent will grow as older generations die off and younger generations grow old enough to vote and think for themselves), but we still don't have as much clout as the loudmouths clamoring on the evening news every night.

      If I recall correctly, the founding fathers faced a lot of similar issues under British rule. I believe that the British regularly circulated and/or had control of most colonial presses before The Revolution (folks can check me on this if I am wrong, the class I am thinking of was a long time ago). Anyways, the revolutionaries found the best way to fan a revolution was by starting their own propaganda machine, hence getting the common man to take up arms against the overlords. This started with things like Paul Revere's engraving of the Boston Massacre and Thomas Paine's Common Sense. A few years of such propaganda, and the colonies were fuming and itching for a fight, which is exactly what they got.

      So if you want a call to arms, if you want to take action, if you want to say enough is enough, then start putting your IT skills to use for a propaganda machine (and not just inside the internet). Start talking to people face to face. Start writing letters to the newspapers of the towns you live in. Start drawing political cartoons and such depicting despicable politicians doing atrocious things. The thing is, you don't have to be pedantic and factual like we nerds are prone to be. You have to grip emotion. You have to grab the populace by the balls and make them yelp for freedom. This is necessary because the folks clamoring on the nightly news already do this. Fact is not necessary to the government and corporate sponsored propaganda machines. Emotion is. You have to scare them into thinking that they are better off dying with a gun in their hands and an unlocked iPhone in their pocket rather than dying in a warm, cozy bed with a full stomach and another episode of American Idol to fall eternally asleep to.

      If you really want a revolution, then make no mistake, you have to get your hands dirty to get it. We geeks have to come together, utilizing all of our skills and knowledge, to get the non slashdotters on our side. And it isn't hopeless. We have legions of angsty teenagers, disgruntled punk rockers, pissed off harcore, scene, and emo kids, amused hipsters, gun-toting rednecks, and nutjob libertarians just twitching for a chance to enact real change. Change that involves bankers dangling from trees by their necks and politicians strung up in town square for folk to throw rocks at. Would that scene be pretty? No. Is it necessary? I'm not sure. But I can tell you that the will to end this kind of bullshit is already percolating through most groups of people. What is required is a massive effort to unite such groups of folk into one cause: your revolution...our revolution.

      So what can we do? Start talking, in places other than the internet.

    15. Re:Unsurprising... by HerculesMO · · Score: 1

      No, I think that seeing it up front and center, and watching it happen, how our legal department sends "lobbyists" down to the offices of our Congressmen and Senators to get reforms they want in, and seeing those things happen has really awakened me to the reality of what goes on.

      I think we've always known the rich control the world, it's when you see them pulling the strings that you wake up a little.

      --
      The price is always right if someone else is paying.
    16. Re:Unsurprising... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      TPM is not simply an anti-socialism movement, we stand for conservatism and the Constitution first and only. Corporate-cronyism is a frequent topic and well understood by conservatives to be a threat.

      So how come every time I hear one talk they don't seem to understand, let alone have actually read the US Constitution. And time and time again they actually sound like ignorant FOX News mouth pieces who would do the world a give favor of simply removing themselves from the gene pool.

      Seriously. Why is it the TPM says one thing but doesn't seem to actually comprehend what is it they say - and constantly make demands which are in effect, the exact opposite of what they say?

      I'm not trying to troll, but everyone I know considers "TPM" to be code for, "completely ignorant, idiot." And without fail, hearing them talk constantly re-enforces that position.

    17. Re:Unsurprising... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What about seriously having an IT walkout day or days? Good luck finding line jumpers to replace Sysadmin's like you can with manual labor jobs. Imagine the impact to these corporations of a day or two where everything wasn't running as it should.

    18. Re:Unsurprising... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't know who you are listening to. FNC is not the TPM, and for that matter they aren't very conservative, they are only better than the other idiots. And they have hotter women.

      "Seriously. Why is it the TPM says one thing but doesn't seem to actually comprehend what is it they say - and constantly make demands which are in effect, the exact opposite of what they say?"

      Seriously, you understand that the Tea Party is not actually a party right? I can't address that sentence as it stands, you need to be more specific.

      "everyone I know considers "TPM" to be code for, "completely ignorant, idiot.""

      Uh huh, dude remember the 60s? Kill your TV man. You need to expand your horizons a bit.

      Here, try this, it's a little long, tell me if you disagree with it.

      http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename=arc_ayn_rand_man_rights

    19. Re:Unsurprising... by HerculesMO · · Score: 2

      The problem with the TPM is simple -- they think the Constitution is the only way we can live. This is absolutely ridiculous and almost laughable.

      The problem is that the Constitution does not cover the high tech, deeply mathematic equations for how the financial industry operations. If they basically gamble, there's no way to prosecute them for this, there's no way to even fine them because most people can't even understand what the HELL they are doing.

      Conservatism as you put it, and "Constitution first" is another way of putting it as "less government", but that's really not the problem. Less government or more, either way they are not there to benefit you. They benefit themselves, and themselves only. I used to think the TPM was a bunch of rednecks but I've since changed that stance and realized that they are all about lowering government interference, but then go as far as to say things like healthcare shouldn't be universal, that the rich make jobs, and espouse ideals that not only don't exist, but ones that aren't even relevant to the troubles we have today.

      You'd be best suited to put down the Constitution for a while, and pick up a finance book and start learning about how you are getting screwed. Yea, the FCC plays into this as well, but it's all driven by the idea that corporations own everything.

      Corporate cronyism is the banner that the Republicans carry, and the Tea Party carries the banner for the Republicans. Look at Rand Paul -- he talked big about all the things that the Tea Party wanted to hear, and as soon as he got elected started to reverse everything to fit the mold of the party. In fact, all the *extreme* Tea Party candidates didn't even get elected. Wonder why that is?

      --
      The price is always right if someone else is paying.
    20. Re:Unsurprising... by Mirey · · Score: 2

      Get the entire nation's computer folk to strike. Imagine what that would do :o

    21. Re:Unsurprising... by nbauman · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I'm here to start the call to arms, I just don't know what to do after that.

      I'll probably be blacklisted for saying this, but what the hell --

      During most of the last century, we had an active, well-organized left in the U.S. Their simple method was to organize people to work together for their own interests against wealthier, more powerful organizations. They accomplished a lot -- getting negroes the right to vote in the south, building a union movement that guaranteed working people a better standard of living than they have today, Social Security, Medicare, a social safety net, and most of the progressive reforms we had then and are losing now. The left worked best by being militant, threatening liberal Democrats, Republicans and unions, and pushing them further to the left -- just as conservative extremists push them to the right today.

      I once read a memo from one of Franklin D. Roosevelt's aides to his boss, about how, on the street corners of Harlem, Communist orators were attracting crowds, and if the government didn't respond to their needs, the Communists would become more influential. During the depression, in negro neighborhoods, when people were disposessed from their homes and their posessions put out on the sidewalks, the Communists would mobilize a crowd, march to the home, and move the families and their posessions back in. It seems clear that FDR was pushed to the left by the socialist and Communist movement.

      The Communist Party had horrible problems, the worst of which was requiring its members to follow the Party line, even during Stalin's worst brutalities. (See George Orwell's Homage to Catalona.) But the Communists knew how to organize workers, including socialists and other allies (whom they often double-crossed), and they had a network that let them organize around the country (and the world).

      If the FBI is to be believed, Communists organized the Highlander Folk School, which taught Martin Luther King how to organize, starting with the Montgomery bus boycott. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highlander_Research_and_Education_Center (This raises the question, "What was the FBI doing to guarantee negroes the right to vote during all those years?") If you want to know how to organize for change, a study of the civil rights movement is instructive.

      Almost every Communist reached a point where he got disgusted and left the party. They often went on to use their organizing techniques to organize other political organizations, like the civil rights movement, the peace movement in the Vietnam war days, and the gay rights movement. Hold a meeting, collect names and phone numbers, call them all to remind them to show up at the next demonstration, and use your numbers to get attention. Demand fundamental change, not compromises. Large demonstrations were a good way to show your strength. The Communist Party was to politics what General Electric was to corporate management -- people worked there, learned, left, and spread their techniques everywhere.

      The best thing the left did in this country was to push compromising politicians further to the left. Too bad we didn't have a Communist Party to push Obama to keep his promises and create a public option health plan. The most important message of the left is that we have to change the system, and we have to change it ourselves. We can't depend on leaders to do it for us. (People on the left saw through Obama a mile away.)

      Eugene Debs said: "I am not a Labor Leader; I do not want you to follow me or anyone else; if you are looking for a Moses to lead you out of this capitalist wilderness, you will stay right where you are. I would not lead you into the promised land if I could, because if I led you in, some one else would lead you out. You must use your heads as well as your hands, and get yourself out of your present condition."

      Look where Obama lead us.

      Unfortunately, a lot of ex-Communists

    22. Re:Unsurprising... by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The more the government regulates the more powerful corporations become. It's really easy, fight government regulation. Work to reduce the amount that government regulates economic activity. Government regulations always favor larger companies over smaller companies. I am not arguing for no government regulation, but for minimal government regulation.
      There are too many people who agitate for government regulation to fix problems created by government regulation. The solution to problems created by the government is to get rid of whatever element of government caused the problem, not by creating new government regulations.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    23. Re:Unsurprising... by HerculesMO · · Score: 0

      This is ridiculous if you understood what caused the whole financial meltdown and the ability for financial firms to increase their assets while the average joe lost theirs.

      Regulation is needed.

      --
      The price is always right if someone else is paying.
    24. Re:Unsurprising... by Jimmy+King · · Score: 1

      I like the way you think

    25. Re:Unsurprising... by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 2

      The whole financial melt down was a product of the success of government regulation of the financial markets. The financial firms over extended themselves and the government bailed them out at the expense of the little guy and then passed laws to make it harder for the little guy to make money in the market.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    26. Re:Unsurprising... by HerculesMO · · Score: 0

      No, because there was no regulation on how much the banks could overleverage themselves. They just kept going until *boom*. There was *no* regulation to prevent that from happening.

      The fallout from this of course, was to save the financial markets and not the people who suffered as a result of the fallout. So we created bailed them out, which is a pittance compared to the 0 interest loans given to them as WELL.

      I'm not going to get embroiled in this debate because if you think that the financial meltdown was because of government regulation, then I have a bridge to nowhere in Alaska to sell you.

      --
      The price is always right if someone else is paying.
    27. Re:Unsurprising... by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 2, Informative

      The financial meltdown happened because Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac (quais-governmental organizations) were taking actions which implied that certain risky actions were being guaranteed against failure by the government. The way that government regulation encouraged banks and other financial institutions to take risky actions is complicated, but if you trace the actions of various government agents you can see how they lead to the problem.
      Sorry, I've already paid for that bridge thanks to the government that you think doesn't have enough power.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    28. Re:Unsurprising... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Listen to me you are going on 100 miles an hour and talking about ten different things at once.

      Lets start with your opening;

      "The problem is that the Constitution does not cover the high tech, deeply mathematic equations for how the financial industry operations."

      How much of the Constitution do you know? It's not very long and it is meant to be read and understood by the average person.

      Why would you need it to cover high tech and math at all?

      Beyond that, the Constitution contains provisions for changing it via the amendment process. The founding fathers knew that the document would not be perfect and all encompassing for all time, they built into the system a means of addressing things that needed to be changed, added or subtracted.

      So I don't think your point makes much sense to be honest, there is no problem there.

      You sound like a drone, so I wont go into your other points unless you actually want to discuss them. Up to you.

    29. Re:Unsurprising... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the government is ruled by the wealthy... why don't activists do what they must to *become* wealthy to gain power?

      Yes, I know that means "selling out"... I also know that means a high chance of corruption once you get up there.

      But if enough people were willing to give up their lives in the short term, amass wealth, move their way to the top to become CEOs themselves, couldn't they finally make a difference in the long run?

    30. Re:Unsurprising... by HerculesMO · · Score: 0

      *facepalm*

      This is the talking point that right wing blogs and tea party activists love to run for, which usually places the blame squarely on the shoulders of "poor people who don't have enough money to live in that house".

      Yea, it's true that the government wanted poor people to get houses. The subprime problem was part of that. But if you think that the Fannie Mae and Freddie Macs of the world are what caused the house of cards to topple, then you're just simply uninformed and really should come back to this discussion with some more facts than what Glenn Beck tells you.

      Because if what you say was true, then there would be *no reason* for foreign countries to suffer the SAME type of fallouts and severe declines in economy, since of course... Fannie and Freddie are only in the US. But of course, this would take actually understanding the issue, and since you've already gone the route of thinking regulation = bad and mentioned Fannie and Freddie, I'll resign you to the notion that you have no idea what the hell you're talking about.

      --
      The price is always right if someone else is paying.
    31. Re:Unsurprising... by StopKoolaidPoliticsT · · Score: 1

      The problem with the TPM is simple -- they think the Constitution is the only way we can live. This is absolutely ridiculous and almost laughable.

      The Constitution amounts to the rule of law rather than the rule of man. The Constitution is a document that is the absolute bedrock foundation of the federal government - it describes precisely what the federal government is allowed to do and declares that any power not given to it explicitly does not belong to it. It also provides a means to modify the Constitution through the amendment process should something need to be corrected.

      The opposite of that is the rule of man - a king, dictator, or other oligarchy which makes and changes the rules to suit their needs. as they see fit. I'm assuming you think this is a pretty bad idea because I don't see how anyone but the elite ruling class can support it.

      So you must think that something should exist between those two... We'll make and enforce some laws, but we'll leave everything else up to the oligarchy... it'll be unjust when they disagree with you, but so long as it is your guy in power, well, you won't mind as long as he doesn't come after you.

      Us Tea Party folks want to live by a Constitution (and more or less, the Constitution we have)... if you don't want to live by a Constitution, you're a fool who deserves whatever injustice you have coming from your ruler. If you want to amend our Constitution, at least say your problem is with our implementation, not the idea of living under a Constitution. Instead, you have a beef with the Tea Party, so you're willing to shred the notion of a Constitution to attack them.

      The problem is that the Constitution does not cover the high tech, deeply mathematic equations for how the financial industry operations. If they basically gamble, there's no way to prosecute them for this, there's no way to even fine them because most people can't even understand what the HELL they are doing.

      The Constitution wasn't designed to micromanage every little thing. It was designed to facilitate interstate trade, provide a unified body to handle international affairs and to protect our most basic rights.

      The introduction of the SEC actually causes people to blindly operate in the stock market. People have the false assumption that the government is making sure nobody is out pulling dirty tricks to fleece them while, as the Madoff case exemplifies, the SEC is doing no such thing. Perhaps if people brought a little caveat emptor into their portfolios, they would do their homework, really finding out if an investment is worth it, rather than relying on the assumption that the government is doing it for them.

      Let's also not forget the federal government's involvement through the Federal Reserve (a private, non-governmental banking operation that essentially controls the Treasury Department and refuses to be audited), the fractional-reserve banking system, Fannie/Freddie and the like underwriting loans so the banks can privatize the profits while socializing the debt, favorable loans and bailouts for entities "too big to fail", etc.

      The problem is too much government involvement, not too little. Still, if you think the Constitution needs to micromanage everything the federal government has already screwed up, advocate an amendment, not the rule of man because he can change the law faster.

      Conservatism as you put it, and "Constitution first" is another way of putting it as "less government", but that's really not the problem. Less government or more, either way they are not there to benefit you. They benefit themselves, and themselves only. I used to think the TPM was a bunch of rednecks but I've since changed that stance and realized that they are all about lowering government interference, but then go as far as to say things like healthcare shouldn't be universal, that the rich make jobs, and espouse ideals that not only don't exist, but ones that

      --
      Stop Koolaid Politics
    32. Re:Unsurprising... by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      Well, the feeling is mutual.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    33. Re:Unsurprising... by kmac06 · · Score: 0

      I'm glad to see someone admit something--all of the radical liberal movements in the US (environmental extremism, pro-gay, anti-military, pro-union, and most of the rest of the Democrat interest groups) are all just displaced Communists.

    34. Re:Unsurprising... by dch24 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but net neutrality isn't going to rally all of America. There are still too many drinking Fox News like koolaid.

      Also, other comments suggest violence. It won't get you net neutrality, it will only land you in jail. (MLK had it right; not the Black Panthers)

      To succeed we must have a cause worthy of the support of anyone. Nationwide. Most of them currently prefer a plutocracy (bread and circuses!) -- so that's what happens.

      But each person does make a difference -- use your influence. Vote with your wallet. Talk to your neighbors, coworkers, friends, family ... help them become more informed. Call your Senator and Representative. "Never give in - never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy." (Winston Churchill)

    35. Re:Unsurprising... by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      http://www.scribd.com/doc/36059255/23321255-Citigroup-Mar-5-2006-Plutonomy-Report-Leaked-Citigroup-Memo-Part1

      Nooooo deleted T_T

      Ah well that's not news to me. Search cablegate for "oligarch" - I think you'll get two hits, it's the one with the drunken jet ski party.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    36. Re:Unsurprising... by GameboyRMH · · Score: 2

      Alas, a radio geek friend of mine told me 100% peer-to-peer wireless mesh networks don't scale very large, and is not likely to be a feasible solution to the Internet becoming less and less fair and more and more owned by fewer and fewer corporate interests. Oh well.

      I hope he's wrong :-(

      I've been doing a lot of research into this and a most of the protocols for the distributed networking that would be required already exist, they'd just have to be brought together, and then we'd need some long-range wireless hardware - maybe a WiMax or "super wifi" router.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    37. Re:Unsurprising... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well said brother, I didn't have the patience.

    38. Re:Unsurprising... by chainLynx · · Score: 1

      Who knows? If it's explained honestly to people, they will care. And you might be surprised about Fox: http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/12/21/need-care-net-neutrality/ In terms of harm that the media causes, I think Fox is a relatively small player because most know they're full of it. As opposed to, say, the NYT http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5631882395226827730#

      I agree, violence is not a solution. (But the Black Panthers were a much more complicated organization than you suggest http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Hampton )

    39. Re:Unsurprising... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're in finance and bought a book by Matt Taibbi? If you work in finance you'd know he's full of it...

    40. Re:Unsurprising... by nbauman · · Score: 1

      kmac06, you have a reading comprehension problem.

      I said the worst of the Communists left the Party and became the conservative movement of today.

      Under George W. Bush, the White House ordered interrogators at Guantanamo Bay to use the *exact* same torture techniques that were used by the Soviet and Chinese Communists against American prisoners and their own political prisoners in Siberia, according to U.S. training manuals disclosed at a Senate Armed Services Committee hearing. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/02/us/02detain.html

      (Of course, as a conservative, you will say that you don't believe disclosures by the Senate Armed Services Committee.)

      Most Communists left the Party when they realized its brutality and anti-democracy.

      Most Republican conservatives just hunkered down and defended their leaders when their party did the same thing.

    41. Re:Unsurprising... by kmac06 · · Score: 1

      lol

    42. Re:Unsurprising... by spitzak · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, a lot of ex-Communists became conservatives, and used those same techniques to organize right wing movements. The Tea Party techniques, of showing up en mass to disrupt a politician's town meeting, is pure Communist Party. The conservatives are now using the same techniques to push politicians to the right. The dinosaurs have evolved into birds; and the Communists have evolved into Conservatives. You have to use those same methods to fight them.

    43. Re:Unsurprising... by ikarous · · Score: 1

      Ah, no, not at all. I meant that Scribd seems to have removed the original document you linked. Thanks for linking that, by the way. Interesting (if depressing) stuff.

    44. Re:Unsurprising... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry dude, some DDoS or organized sit-in won't solve this.

      Soap Box > Ballot Box > Jury Box > Ammo Box.

      We have been through 3 of these and they have had literally no effect, the last one is the only option we got left and the one option they are trying to dissuade us from using as much as they can by trying to make us feel powerless and trying to remove as many as they can from being able to own guns. Let alone how they are trying their best in investing into autonomous weapons that can't refuse to obey orders. They manage to keep this up for another 50 to maybe 100 years where they can have an entire army of autonomous machines so it won't matter cause then they can uphold their own tyranny without using the very people they oppress to enforce it.

      That is a good deal of the reason why as much good as these things do that helps take our people out of harms way on the battlefield, I still prefer to have an actual person there who can actually refuse to do something that is immoral or wrong, sure a lot will still follow through, but many won't and would risk an uprising if they pushed it far enough.

    45. Re:Unsurprising... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Plutocracy is the natural order of human civilization. There have been few, if any, stable civilizations that were not run by the wealthy.

      At least in a democratic Plutocracy you have the opportunity to join up with the high rollers and win if you play your cards right. The danger is that the cadre of high rollers decides to rig the game or just make the casino 'members only'. Which is where we're headed.

      Plutocracy is fine if there are equal opportunities and equal human rights. But there aren't.

    46. Re:Unsurprising... by quacking+duck · · Score: 1

      As appealing as the concept is, the ones that truly deserve it are rich enough and corrupt enough to hire private security goons and, if that fails, their surviving friends will hire investigators and hit squads to take out your family and you (in that order).

    47. Re:Unsurprising... by dch24 · · Score: 1

      What should we rally around?

      All the major news sources -- Fox, NYT, event slashdot -- are all bought.

    48. Re:Unsurprising... by inthealpine · · Score: 0

      The problem with your argument is that the 'left' left you out to dry, this how they work. As far as equal rights for 'Negros', that was very supported by the 'right' as in Republican party. JFK voted against civil rights legislation along with most of the Democrat party. Communism is an abysmal failure to the extent that if you try to jump right to it like the USSR it can only be ran with totalitarianism and millions being 'purged', and it still fails. If you have the slow progression of communism from capitalism like Europe the countries go broke before they can even make their way through one major economic downturn. Oh, and Europe is now dialing back their socialism since they already ran out of other peoples money. Go to college until your 30 and then retire at 45, go figure.
      Single payer health care? Are you for real? We don't even have the watered down version in full effect and masses of companies are exempted so they don't drop millions of peoples' health plans. Single payer along with medicare, medicade and SS would kill the US in short order. Where did HMO's come from? The government. The government causes the problem, then comes to the rescue with the answer.
      Keep your Acorn organizing bull shit away. Unions bankrupted their members pension funds, Obama made sure to route billions to them. Obama give anyone here with a 401k a check for what you lost? Well, maybe your 401k fund administrator should have gave hundreds of millions on electing Obama instead of trying to make money for you.

      --
      "In God We Trust, All Others Pay Cash"
    49. Re:Unsurprising... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Does anyone have a link to that document on a less shitty web site for download?

    50. Re:Unsurprising... by chainLynx · · Score: 1

      Well one outlet that doesn't take any corporate/foundation funding is: http://www.democracynow.org/ Any community-sponsored outlet is generally a good bet.

      But as far as what we should "rally around," I think your question is missing the point. It isn't that the NYT, Slashdot, Fox, are 100% full of lies. There's obviously some truth/stories in there. You just need to figure out how to read them. Reading Manufacturing Consent by Chomsky and Herman is a great way to start to learn how to separate truth from falsehood.

      And it's entirely possible that Democracy Now (not that I think this is at all likely) will be subverted by corporate goons tomorrow. So it's not like DN is infallible or anything. You just have to use your best judgment about how and where you consume news. As soon as you trust anyone else to carry out that task for you, you risk being deceived.

    51. Re:Unsurprising... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The financial disaster that is the current US economy was created solely by deregulation. There's a series of articles in the NYT that gives a good overview, it's called 'The Reckoning' I believe. You need to understand that We The People need legal protection of our rights, for example our rights to not eat lead or have rat meat in our beef. The business interests in this country have no need for you to be happy, healthy, or successful, and they never will. Government is intended to be our defense against these interests. By removing regulation you remove barriers to power; why were anti-trust laws enacted at all? Why was Glass-Steagall enacted? What happened when it was removed?

      You're arguing for a world more completely owned by business interests than you apparently can imagine. A good name for this is fascism, which Benito Mussolini defined as 'the union of the corporation with the state'.

      A 'regulation' usually promotes some sort of common standard. Standards rarely are things that help businesses of any size, they prevent people from making inferior products or that other bane of /., vendor lock-in.

      "There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey.”

      Tetraethyl lead is cheap, so were CFCs. I think the list of government regulations you're in favor of is longer than you think.

    52. Re:Unsurprising... by Wannabe+Code+Monkey · · Score: 1

      This is just another shot in the arm against a citizenry whose arms are already falling off from the shots before.

      btw, a "shot in the arm" is a good thing: http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/318925.html . It's like what the bailout/TARP was designed to be.

      --
      We always knew Comcast was corrupt, here's the proof: http://tech.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1909890&cid=34545432
    53. Re:Unsurprising... by Xyrus · · Score: 1

      In order to change anything, you need:

      1. A well educated public.
      2. A well motivated public.

      The populace as a whole is suffering from it's own ignorance and apathy. The government leaders and megacorps aim to keep it that way.

      The reason it's so difficult to effect any beneficial change is that those who are sentient enough to see where we are headed do not make up the majority. And of those, a good chunk happen to be the government/corporate leaders who are more than happy to continue on the present course.

      We are a small minority.

      --
      ~X~
    54. Re:Unsurprising... by eepok · · Score: 1

      If you have the slow progression of communism from capitalism like Europe the countries go broke before they can even make their way through one major economic downturn. Oh, and Europe is now dialing back their socialism since they already ran out of other peoples money.

      Except no...

      European Democratic Socialism is failing because they're trying to have their cake and eat it, too. They want to have high minimum standards of living AND have high potential for high profits. Their citizenry needs to understand that if they want the world's best security blanket, they have to give up a good deal of their earnings for not only the greater good, but as insurance against their own future failure.

      In America, most people would rather maximize the potential for super high profits-- even if that potential remains infinitesimally small. Everyone here actually believes they have a chance to become a multi-billionaire and thus choose to do whatever it takes to preserve the powers of the wealthy just in case they ever get to join their ranks. They delude themselves about the probability and are actually willing to vote against their own well-being to preserve that dream (see: Tea Partiers and poor Republicans).

      Eventually, people will figure out that sustainable economics favors the "high minimum standard" over the "highest potential profits" (since "highest potential profits" encourages criminal behavior). When they do, they'll clamp down on using the stock market as a rigged gambling system, hold corporations accountable to their national and state taxes, and move toward realistic Social Democracy-- but it won't be for quite a while. When shows like "Deal or No Deal" die off, I think we'll have a chance.

    55. Re:Unsurprising... by Xyrus · · Score: 1

      Government regulations favor corporations because that's who pays them. A CORRECT government would not be influenced by corporate whims and would reflect the will of the people.

      Less government regulations won't fix jack either. That's a blank check for corporate corruption. Corporations actively work to ensure their profits, and if that means being anti-competitive pricks than so be it. This has been demonstrated repeatedly in the past.

      You can choose to get screwed over slowly with at least the facade that you can vote to stop being screwed (government). Or you can get screwed over quickly knowing you have no say in the matter (corporations).

      More government regulations = corporations win. Less government regulations = corporations win. Either way, we lose.

      --
      ~X~
    56. Re:Unsurprising... by Xyrus · · Score: 2

      Bullshit. The meltdown happened because banks over-leveraged themselves using real estate as collateral against Really Fucking Stupid Loans so they could take the money and invest it in Really Fucking Stupid Investments. Several books have been written about this and they all detail the Really Fucking Stupid Shit the banks did in the name of greed and profit.

      --
      ~X~
    57. Re:Unsurprising... by DigiShaman · · Score: 0

      I said the worst of the Communists left the Party and became the conservative movement of today.

      Not so with the old guard. They've become members of Greenpeace which eventually toned down to become Socialists.

      True Communists still belong to the Communist Party USA. Which ironically, provide the same talking points as the rabid and foaming-of-the-mouth liberals. I dare say, all far left liberals are closet communists without official declaration of their position. In fact, the far left's POV is even more extreme than what the CP USA stands for. That's not to say the bible-thumping ignorant rednecks are any better, because they're not.

      It's all irrelevant however. Eventually, all political parties separate themselves from the common man. To solidify power, they will all eventually turn to Communism, Fascism, Theocracy, or some sort of dictatorship with an ever-lasting dynasty in the wake. Boiled down to its pure element, man seeks to control other men. It's an institution of Statism.

      Seriously. Pick up a book and read some world history for that's our future as well.

      So what can YOU do about it? Don't take sides except for one. Take the side of freedom and the truth. Anything that obfuscates your vision simply turns you into the problem rather than the solution.

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    58. Re:Unsurprising... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who the fuck modded this up?

      Who got bailed out? I don't see either of those guys on this list:

      "U.S. Senator Bernie Sanders' (VT) amendment to the Wall Street Reform Bill required the Federal Reserve to reveal the names of companies that received "backdoor bailouts" through a program that used liquidity and credit programs and other monetary policy tools to respond to the financial crisis in the summer of 2007. According to Sanders, Goldman Sachs received nearly $600 billion; Morgan Stanley received nearly $2 trillion; Citigroup received $1.8 trillion; Bear Stearns received nearly $1 trillion, and Merrill Lynch received some $1.5 trillion in short term loans from the Fed. In addition, some of the largest corporations in the country also received substantial bailouts, including General Electric, McDonald's, Caterpillar, Harley Davidson, Toyota and Verizon. Huge sums also went to foreign private banks and corporations including Deutsche Bank and Credit Suisse.[36][37][38]"

      Again, read the fucking NYT article. You have been lied to, and you are taking it upon yourself to propagate lies. It's not fucking complicated at all how this happened. Do you want a fucking hyperlink, or do you know how to use google already?

    59. Re:Unsurprising... by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 0

      The thing is, governments with lots of regulations like big corporations. It is easier to control a few big corporations than it is to control a lot of small companies. The more government regulates business the more business needs to influence government to survive. The more business influences government, the more people like you want the government to regulate business thus driving small businesses out of business leading to more dominance of the market place by big corporations, increasing the influence that those corporations have over the government. This is what has been demonstrated throughout history. The less the government regulates the economic sphere (beyond enforcing basic contract law), the more the individual prospers. The more the government regulates the economic sphere, the more big business prospers and individual liberty suffers.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    60. Re:Unsurprising... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      they are expecting that. People are too complacent anyhow. Too many gadgets, gizmos, and things to do nowadays to worry about the big picture. This might be off topic, but I always wondered why they called T.V. line ups 'programming'

      Citigroup Plutonomy Report Part 2
      Mar 5 2006
      http://www.scribd.com/doc/6674234/Citigroup-Oct-16-2005...

      RISKS -- WHAT COULD GO WRONG?

      Our whole plutonomy thesis is based on the idea that the rich will keep getting richer. This thesis is not without its risks. For example, a policy error leading to asset deflation, would likely damage plutonomy. Furthermore, the rising wealth gap between the rich and poor will probably at some point lead to a political backlash. Whilst the rich are getting a greater share of the wealth, and the poor a lesser share, political enfrachisement remains as was -- one person, one vote (in the plutonomies). At some point it is likely that labor will fight back against the rising profit share of the rich and there will be a political backlash against the rising wealth of the rich. This could be felt through higher taxation on the rich (or indirectly though higher corporate taxes/regulation) or through trying to protect indigenous (home-grow)] laborers, in a push-back on globalization -- either anti-mmigration, or protectionism. We don’t see this happening yet, though there are signs of rising political tensions. However we are keeping a close eye on developments.

    61. Re:Unsurprising... by Pinkybum · · Score: 1

      I can't believe this right-wing propaganda got modded this highly. Here is Krugman talking about the imminent collapse in late 2007 (before it happened) and it's ALL about credit default swaps enjoy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XhvG_fD0HA

    62. Re:Unsurprising... by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      Krugman says whatever supports his political agenda. He is an unreliable source. In 2003 he said that federal spending was too large to be sustainable. In 2009 when it was much larger, he said it wasn't enough.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    63. Re:Unsurprising... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fannie Mae and Freddi Mac had almost nothing to do with the financial crisis. They were a very small portion of the problem. The banks took on "risky" mortgages not because they were made to but because it was profitable. Read Michael Lewis' "The Big Short" or Matt Taibbi's "Griftopia" to get an idea of how the financial crisis actually occurred.

    64. Re:Unsurprising... by frank_adrian314159 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      ... because Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were taking actions which implied that certain risky actions were being guaranteed against failure by the government.

      Yes, and that explains why foreign real estate markets crashed, too.

      A nice right-wing talking point not born out by the facts. In fact, FNMA and FMCC did not start taking large percentages of high risk loans until well after private firms did. And why did they? Yes, politicians on the left were asking them to make homes more affordable. What is missed by the conservatards is that politicians on the right were doing the same thing - they called it spreading the American Dream - and they thought that if the GSEs were raking in the kind of money that Countrywide, et al. were, they wouldn't need to fund them at as high a level. So yeah, blame them all you want - you'll be stupid doing so, but go ahead.

      --
      That is all.
    65. Re:Unsurprising... by magus_melchior · · Score: 1

      You know, we may not need to-- we can influence publicly-traded corporations if we become their shareholders.

      That won't solve problems caused by private companies like Xe and Koch Industries, but it will marginalize them.

      --
      "We are Microsoft. You shall be assimilated. Competition is futile."
    66. Re:Unsurprising... by StopKoolaidPoliticsT · · Score: 1

      Yes, and that explains why foreign real estate markets crashed, too.

      For a long time, the US Dollar has been the de facto world reserve currency. Everyone in the past was willing to take a dollar in trade for their goods and services and it was the only currency some commodities like oil were traded in. Countries would use tie their own currency to the dollar by keeping large reserves, like China, and large institutions and countries would also repatriate those dollars by investing in the American economy (treasury bonds, stock holdings, etc.

      As such, any change in the dollar would have an immediate effect on most countries around the world, whether it be through direct investment of, or simple trade using, those dollars. The collapse of the financial sector, the "too big to fail" multinationals and overleveraged state/local government budgets caused a lack of confidence in the dollar. That drop in confidence combined with a large drop in the American stock market and the printing of ENORMOUS amounts of new money caused a rapid devaluation of the dollar for institutional investors, who then panicked, furthering the decline. After things bottomed out, institutional investors started buying bargains, shoring up the stock market, but the dollar's problems were never solved and are still on the horizon, waiting to bite us in the ass. The dollar would be worthless already if it wasn't for the collapse of the other major world currency (the Euro) due to the economic collapse of countries there, which seemed poised to continue falling like dominos (and the US is throwing more and more dollars their way, hoping to keep the Euro from failing completely).

      In short, all of our markets are tied together because, instead of using a commodity backed currency, foreign countries have opted to use a foreign fiat currency as backing credit for their own money, and because for decades, the US dollar was the most tradeable currency across international borders. It really isn't surprising that we all failed at roughly the same time... and while Fannie/Freddie weren't the cause, they were a contributing factor in a larger problem, and that's the mishandling of the dollar by the Federal Reserve, especially after it was converted to a pure fiat currency. Combined with a government that knows know limits on spending or market interference and you have a recipe for disaster.

      A nice right-wing talking point not born out by the facts. In fact, FNMA and FMCC did not start taking large percentages of high risk loans until well after private firms did. And why did they? Yes, politicians on the left were asking them to make homes more affordable. What is missed by the conservatards is that politicians on the right were doing the same thing - they called it spreading the American Dream - and they thought that if the GSEs were raking in the kind of money that Countrywide, et al. were, they wouldn't need to fund them at as high a level. So yeah, blame them all you want - you'll be stupid doing so, but go ahead.

      How about we blame the people that decided to use the force of government to encouraging something that was bad economic policy all around, whether they be Democrats, Republicans or Martians? We have to realize that government is evil, a necessary evil, but evil nevertheless... and that if we ask the government to give to us, we also empower the government to take from us. The more we ask it to interfere on our behalf, the more it will interfere with us on the behalf of others.

      Now, two last final points... First, despite expanding the CRA, Bush also wanted Congress to investigate the financial soundness of Fannie and Freddie but the Democrats in Congress blocked him, with Barney Frank going on about how they were fundamentally sound. Second, calling people you disagree with "conservatards" makes you sound like an ignorant four year old and neutral people will consider your opinion to be dubious at best, since you haven't progressed to the point where you can express yourself without childish namecalling. Then again, we are at Slashdot, where a well thought out reply = -1, I disagree while idiotic, false memes get modded to +5, insightful, so your name calling will fit right in.

      --
      Stop Koolaid Politics
    67. Re:Unsurprising... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well put!

    68. Re:Unsurprising... by medoc · · Score: 1

      In economic areas naturally suited for monopoly building (having big barriers to the entry of new players), government regulation is the only thing that protects you from dealing with a single extorsionist.

      The duty of corporations is not to serve the public but their shareholders. This is not evil by itself, but it needs to be balanced by an opposing power.

      For telecommunications, power or water distribution,etc. regulation is an absolute must. But it should be the right kind, the one that encourages competition, not the one that actually protects the monopoly, like the ones we had a few decades ago protecting ATT or France Telecom.

      In a democracy, you hopefuly push for better regulation by casting a vote. When this is not enough you have to organize. There are excellent posts in this discussion which explain how this happens in more detail.

    69. Re:Unsurprising... by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 0

      In economic areas naturally suited for monopoly building (having big barriers to the entry of new players), government regulation is the only thing that protects you from dealing with a single extorsionist.
      Government regulation is one of the largest barriers to entry in those areas that are "naturally suited for monopoly building".

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    70. Re:Unsurprising... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I am a bit demoralized nowadays about all this

      Hate to demoralize you some more but your link to (http://www.scribd.com/doc/36059255/23321255-Citigroup-Mar-5-2006-Plutonomy-Report-Leaked-Citigroup-Memo-Part1) was been compromised for copyright infringement! Gee what a free country we live in. The site says this below.

      The document "23321255 Citigroup Mar 5 2006 Plutonomy Report Leaked Citigroup Memo Part1" has been automatically removed from Scribd by our automated copyright protection system because it appears very similar to an unauthorized copyrighted document that was previously removed from Scribd.

      Call it arms? Well shotgun justice DOES have its place.

      The people that wrote the Bill of Rights did do a lot of thinking in the layout of it. The first one gives a person freedom. The second one give that individual the right to protect that freedom. Yes it is time for a Call to Arms.

    71. Re:Unsurprising... by asdfghjklqwertyuiop · · Score: 1

      A leaked memo from Citigroup has already declared the US a Plutocracy (rule by the wealthy).

      That's actually not what it says. In fact, they specifically state that isn't the case and that political backlash is one of the risks to their whole "invest in stuff for rich people" strategy on page 10:

      Furthermore, the rising wealth gap between the rich and poor will probably at some point lead to a political backlash. Whilst the rich are getting a greater share of the wealth, and the poor a lesser share, political enfrachisement remains as was - one person, one vote (in the plutonomies). At some point it is likely that labor will fight back against the rising profit share of the rich and there will be a political backlash against the rising wealth of the rich.

      But most of the stocks they picked for their "plutonomy basket" completely tanked in fall of 2009 just like everything else anyway. This memo is from March 5 2006.

    72. Re:Unsurprising... by saleenS281 · · Score: 1

      Government regulation encouraged lenders not to be racist. NOTHING in ANY documentation forced any private firms to lend money to people unqualified. They came up with that brilliant plan all on their own. The *LACK* of government oversight in the people they were giving loans out to was the problem. NOT the fact that the government forced them to loan to both caucasians and non-caucasians alike.

      Your keep spitting the same BS talking points that have been coming out of Limbaugh for years. Why don't you do what he couldn't: quote the regulation that CAUSED the meltdown. I'm pretty sure "greedy bankers who cashed out before it all fell apart" isn't listed in any formal document.

    73. Re:Unsurprising... by jlrowe · · Score: 1
      You have either

      Zero understanding of concepts, terms, philosophy, and facts....or

      You are deliberately trying to mislead.

      Now, some Republicans ( not conservatives as that is not necessarily the same thing) such as McCain, Lugar, Gramnesty, are just about as socialist/marxist as the Democrats have become. So I'll only partly dispute that.

      But you are totally in error and expose yourself by claiming the Tea Party folk are Communists. The principles of the Tea Party and Communists are direct opposites. Meanwhile, you cannot tell the difference between the Democrat platform and the Communist party platform. See http://www.cpusa.org/

    74. Re:Unsurprising... by spitzak · · Score: 1

      You said "I'm glad to see someone admit something--all of the radical liberal movements in the US (environmental extremism, pro-gay, anti-military, pro-union, and most of the rest of the Democrat interest groups) are all just displaced Communists.".

      I was just pointing out that the article you are responding to pretty clearly claims that it is the tea party that is from ex-communists. I don't necessarily agree but it does seem you did not read all of the previous post and thought it would be fun to point that out.

  19. Told You So by Tokolosh · · Score: 0

    But did you want to listen?? Nooo...

    (See my various postings elsewhere)

    Sadly, none of this is surprising.

    --
    Prove anything by multiplying Huge Number times Tiny Number
  20. FCC by Gunkerty+Jeb · · Score: 1

    The FCC is and always will be lame.

    1. Re:FCC by Rockoon · · Score: 1

      Indeed. I tried to tell all these young slashdotters that the FCC is *not* for freedom of speech, but none of them wanted to listen.

      I told them how the FCC was considered very very very bad by my generation for good reasons, but they didn't want to listen. They were all dreamy-eyed about the wonders of "net neutrality" and refused to fucking listen, and were actually IN A FUCKING RUSH TO SUPPORT THE FCC.

      Listen up fucking kids on slashdot. The FCC should never ever ever be allowed to regulate the internet. Ever. Period. Never fucking ever.

      This will be the future of forums.
      This will be the future of running a web site.

      You fuckers wanted to END FREE SPEECH just so your fucking torrent wont get throttled... FUCK YOU.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    2. Re:FCC by d3ac0n · · Score: 1

      Rockoon

      Maybe not the way I would have put it, but yeah. What he said.

      --
      Official Heretic from the "Church of Global Warming". Proven right thanks to whistle blowers. AGW = Flat Earth Theory
  21. So what did you... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So what did you wusses expect from democrats? Something of substance? It is all about how much money is given, to them.

    1. Re:So what did you... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's pretty clear that the US is run by the corporations, so it would have been the same if it were all Republicans, Independents or whatever $party you chose.

  22. Sucks, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Realistically, this probably wasn't ever gonna go through the way anyone wanted. It doesn't get politicians what they want...more green pocket-lining.

  23. Fail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No surprise, though. Bunch of spineless wimps that easily bend to a few bucks.

  24. Self-interest by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I remain absolutely shocked that in this day and age, the common man still refuses to accept that the people who run the business of government work precisely for themselves. After thousands of years of centralized power and the injustice it brings, it's almost comical (if it wasn't so sad) that the common man still falls for the same old scam, year after year. The people at the top of the pyramid are motivated purely by self-interest, the very thing they claim to save us from.

    So let's sit down and take a deep breath here: you are NOT the government, and the government is not you; in fact, the government does not even "represent" you. If that were the case, then why do they need guns?

    Again, the only solution to government failure and injustice is STRICT limits on the scope of government (both revenue and power over the people). Of course, that's nothing but a pipe dream for radicals and libertarians, right?

    1. Re:Self-interest by s73v3r · · Score: 1

      Fuck you. Fuck your stupid, "If we don't worship the corporations, and blow them at every opportunity, then maybe they will grow angry and take their precious scraps with them," mentality. That is bullshit.

    2. Re:Self-interest by iceaxe · · Score: 1

      While I fear that you are correct about the motivations of politicians and despots (an overlapping set, of course) it's also an unfortunate truth that in the absence of collective action, ANYONE with a gun, or just a big stick, can and will take away all the freedom, prosperity, and peace that you have. The difficult trick, and one we are still far from solving, is how to strike the right balance for peaceful cooperation and maximum quality of life for all. I concur that a government must be limited, and strictly so, but exactly where to set those limits is a matter of considerable debate.

      In my experience, the people who complain most loudly about the power of government are the ones who imagine themselves as the ones with the guns and big sticks, who want the 'freedom' to force everyone around them to live according to their own particular and usually selfish and short-sighted desires. Enforcing the sort of equality that allows EVERYONE to have a fair shot at living according to their own wishes requires a significant amount of collective power, and a cultural desire to provide that equality. In the US where I live, and in many other nations, we publicly claim to espouse such a cultural desire, but when it comes down to voting, or individual actions, we often force majority opinions on the minority against their will and in direct rebuttal of our own lofty claims.

      Nonetheless, most folks are just trying to do more or less the best they can with the cards they've been dealt. Most see the world through the prism of their cultural upbringing, and have little interest in what goes on outside their own parochial point of view. Some few become political leaders, because frankly, somebody has to do it, and in current scenarios those with self-serving ambitions can use politics to achieve them, and can and do eradicate any opposition serving more altruistic goals. Democracy, though, for all of its ridiculous flaws, is still the best solution we've come up with. Improving on it will be a long and difficult road.

      Until that distant future day when we've figured out a way to get people to cooperate more amicably, there will have to be limitations set by the group on the actions of individuals. And there will always be individuals who think there should be more, or fewer, restrictions.

      --
      WALSTIB!
  25. Why are you surprised? by subreality · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The FCC was bought, sold, and paid for long ago. That's why the vast majority of our spectrum 'belongs' to megacorps, and only the thinnest little slivers are given back to us.

    Can you imagine how much more useful WiFi would be if we had more than 3 non-conflicting channels that are completely trampled by microwave ovens? (OK, so there's also the 5GHz band, but I mean a nice big block, all in one clean band.) Cordless phones wouldn't conflict, wireless in-house TV distribution would have happened long ago, and more. Imagine if there was a decently sized band of relatively long-wavelength (sub-GHz), spectrum available that allowed a couple watts total / a few tens EIRP in a narrow beam. We could very easily set up private point to point links everywhere, instead of just barely getting them to work as it is now.

    Or standards... The rest of the world uses DVB. The US gets ATSC, which is a mess of patents. Same deal with HD radio.

    I'm not the least surprised that the FCC isn't protecting your interests, and is doing everything that keeps huge corporations in control of communications. It's what they do best.

    1. Re:Why are you surprised? by eepok · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I don't think people are surprised, but very let down. "Expect the worst, hope for the best", right? Everyone expects corporate money and influence to win, but hoped nonetheless that this guy they elected would take a stand or that the internet would be a bastion of relative freedom.

      No one likes have having his hopes crushed.

    2. Re:Why are you surprised? by subreality · · Score: 1

      I agree partly: This is the FCC's doing, and the president only has so much political capital to spend fighting such issues. I'd think this would be an issue to do it on, since it was emphasized so strongly in his campaign, but plenty of other promises have slipped too, and this is small political beans compared to the foreign policy issues.

      Sure, I hoped for more from the president (I've gotten roughly what I expected... A mediocre showing), but I've NEVER had any optimism about the FCC.

    3. Re:Why are you surprised? by inthealpine · · Score: 1

      You thought for a second Obama wanted less regulation of ANYTHING? Look who Obama put in power. They are all about heavy regulation of every communication. Your savior said he would rape you and you rub your ass as though you didn't fucking know it was going to happen.

      --
      "In God We Trust, All Others Pay Cash"
    4. Re:Why are you surprised? by inthealpine · · Score: 1

      Are you people serious? Obama put fuckers in control who want to do far worse than this nudge towards government regulation. You are getting fucked in the ass by Obama and your looking back at him as he does it and say he's powerless to stop it and it's not his fault.

      --
      "In God We Trust, All Others Pay Cash"
    5. Re:Why are you surprised? by subreality · · Score: 1

      I thought this guy predated Obama. You're right, he came with the package. There's no excuse.

    6. Re:Why are you surprised? by YenTheFirst · · Score: 1

      Ok, one thing I have to respond to - WiFi, cordless phones, and all that jazz would have pretty much the same problems even if microwaves didn't exist.

      The point of WiFi is that it was sold as a low-power, consumer-grade device in unregulated space (because of the microwave ovens, of course). So, home users didn't have to get any sort of licensing to operate the radios.

      Say, hypothetically, there was some other, consumer-open, unregulated spectrum space, not clobbered by microwave ovens. In addition to WiFi, EVERY OTHER consumer wireless device would flock to that space, and you'd have the same trampling problems.

      --
      It's not stupid. It's Advanced.
    7. Re:Why are you surprised? by subreality · · Score: 1

      That's why I said that we need more than 3 non-conflicting channels. I want a nice *wide* band where we can put tons of devices, and they'll be able to operate without contention.

  26. Fucking Republicans by wiredog · · Score: 1

    They gave in, and allowed the Democrats to impose regulation on the internet.

    That is the cave you're referring to, right?

    1. Re:Fucking Republicans by Tokolosh · · Score: 1

      Please forget the Republican vs Democrat paradigm. Debating their relative merits is pointless and diverts us from the real issue - freedom vs everything else.

      "We fought for Freedom and all we got was democracy"
        - Pieter-Dirk Uys

      --
      Prove anything by multiplying Huge Number times Tiny Number
    2. Re:Fucking Republicans by dragonhunter21 · · Score: 1

      Impose regulation to keep the internet the way it should be- open.

      Some things need regulation. Give an inch...

      --
      Sent from my CR-48
    3. Re:Fucking Republicans by Hatta · · Score: 1

      What makes you think the Republicans don't want the government to control the Internet?

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
  27. United States Government in action by haplo21112 · · Score: 1

    Government for the corporations, by the corporations. We might as well change the constitution....

    "We the Corporations of the United States of America, in order to best subjugate, and bleed the masses...."

    --
    Power Corrupts,Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely, leaving one person(group)in charge is absolutely corrupt.
  28. Big Suprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Welching on promises? Less that I bargained for? Par for the course with His Excellency.

  29. B-but ... Freedom! by serutan · · Score: 2

    It's all about Freedom! Because how can we be free if the people with a compulsive need to own everything aren't free to own everything?

  30. Is it really so outrageous? by guanxi · · Score: 4, Funny

    I know it's a crazy thing to say around here, but owners of the telecommunication companies are just as deserving of having their needs served by government as the consumers of telecommunications services. Government doesn't exist to protect the rights of citizens who are consuming over those who are producing. I don't know much about this ruling, but in general a compromise between those interests is a good thing.

    I know the corporations are the 'bad' guys, but you don't want government playing favorites. Maybe it will make you feel better to know that pension funds, which keep a great many of our elderly working class and middle class housed and fed, are among the largest owners of those corporations.

    Again, maybe this ruling is different, but it wouldn't be a compromise if everyone was happy.

    1. Re:Is it really so outrageous? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      So if the government is always siding with industry lobbies on every issue, aren't they playing favorites? Or is this the compromise you speak of?

    2. Re:Is it really so outrageous? by chemicaldave · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Government doesn't exist to protect the rights of citizens who are consuming over those who are producing.

      This is absurd. The government should exist to serve only the needs of people. Treating a corporation like any other citizen is ridiculous, especially when you promote the interests of a corporation over those of the actual people.

    3. Re:Is it really so outrageous? by Itchyeyes · · Score: 2

      It took me a minute to find the whole in your argument, as your reasoning seems solid on the surface. But there is a hole there. You say

      Government doesn't exist to protect the rights of the citizens who are consuming over those who are producing.

      Which is mostly true. But neither does government exist to protect rights of producers over consumers, or over other producers for that matter, which is what's happening here. You see the telcos and cable cos have been awarded exclusive rights to wireless spectrum and rights of ways for ground infrastructure by the US government. These are not open and free markets that they deal in. Even if you had the capital to start a telco, you can't simply start broadcasting on the 700mhz spectrum, that belongs to Verizon. Nor can you simply lay fiber optic cable throughout a city, even if you offer to compensate that landowners.

      These rights are awarded to the telcos at the exclusion of all other citizens. They are given preference by the law to operate their business with minimal competition from outsiders. What most here argue is that there must be some regulation to balance this. Otherwise you get an inneficient, uncompetitive market that only benefits the providers and not the rest of the citizenship. And the regulation that most propose is that telcos, while they remain free to structure their pricing for networks however they wish, should be required to treat all data passing over that network the same.

      That is the very crux of net neutrality. And it's what millions have been pushing for for years. The supposed "net neutrality" bill here essentially lacks that central requirement. That's what everyone is upset about.

    4. Re:Is it really so outrageous? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe it will make you feel better to know that pension funds, which keep a great many of our elderly working class and middle class housed and fed, are among the largest owners of those corporations.

      How naive. Let me explain something to you, Net Neutrality - the REAL one - would have no effect what's so ever on those people and their pensions. None. And do you really think the couple of bucks the those retirees get from the telecommunications portion of their pensions will compensate them from any future charges that they incur because of this bill? Nope.The only people who will profit from this are the CEOs.

      It's like the folks who bought airline stocks and made a couple of hundred bucks on their shares only to have to pay several hundred more on tickets. We little people always lose.

      For us little people, the profits from our pensions and retirement accounts never makes up for the charges that those some companies charge us. Our investments are going nowhere. Interest rates are shit. The CEOs are making money hand over fist and you have the nerve to say that this helps retired people who are invested in these companies?

      So, if you will, save the "you're making out too" speech for people who actually believe that bullshit.

    5. Re:Is it really so outrageous? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "... it wouldn't be a compromise if everyone was happy..."

      yes, yes it would. neither party would feel hard done by if the deal had been balanced so both side received equal value out of it.

      i'm not american, so i don't know the particulars, but calling something 'net neutrality' when it allows certain protocols/services to be prioritised over others is NOT net neutrality.

      i think the fact not everyone is happy and that the definition of the argument itself seems to have been redefined with hopes people don't notice; thankfully, comes before any discussion we should have about poor corporations being under represented in government, in saying you are wrong.

    6. Re:Is it really so outrageous? by Jahava · · Score: 2

      I know it's a crazy thing to say around here, but owners of the telecommunication companies are just as deserving of having their needs served by government as the consumers of telecommunications services.

      Why would this be the case? It's a government of the people, for the people. The needs of the people ought to be the first and only priority of the government. The needs of corporations should be met only because doing so meets the greater needs of the people. If the telecommunication companies want to have their needs met, they ought to align those needs with the greater public good, and I have yet to see compelling evidence that they are trying to do this. Instead, I see evidence of physical infrastructure monopolies, government subsidies, anti-competitive behaviors, poor bandwidth and service (relative to other major nations), spotty coverage, and absurdly-high fixed prices. How does any of this warrant my government's support?

      The larger players in telecommunications industry exist to create de facto monopolies and leverage those to milk the consumer market. This is evident in all major carrier policies and quality of service. There is no free market here, so consumers have no weight and voice. My government should not be supporting these corporations.

    7. Re:Is it really so outrageous? by misexistentialist · · Score: 1

      Network neutrality is equally about protecting "producers" from other "producers," who on closer inspection are more interested in rent seeking (just like retirees, though whether they will actually receive a net benefit from investing in corporations is very unclear).

    8. Re:Is it really so outrageous? by Calsar · · Score: 1

      A corporation is made up of people. The livelyhood of those people depends on producing a service that other people pay for. Even in an autonomous collective you have to weight the rights of the producers against the rights of the consumers.

      I managed to squeeze a Monty Python reference into a serious post.

    9. Re:Is it really so outrageous? by d3ac0n · · Score: 0

      Why?

      What is a corporation BUT a group of people working cooperatively and corporately towards a common goal?

      Are those people not to be served by our government? Are they somehow LESS deserving of equal protection because they act corporately?

      This is the lie of Socialism and anti-capitalism. That a group of people deserve less protection than another because they belong to that group.

      The US Constitution is supposed to guarantee Equal Protection under the Law. This means corporations, being made up of Citizens, also get that same protection.

      If you don't like it, there are plenty of places on earth that don't have equal protection. I suggest you go live there.

      If you already live there, then STFU about my country and worry about your own.

      --
      Official Heretic from the "Church of Global Warming". Proven right thanks to whistle blowers. AGW = Flat Earth Theory
    10. Re:Is it really so outrageous? by Elder+Entropist · · Score: 1

      I know it's a crazy thing to say around here, but owners of the telecommunication companies are just as deserving of having their needs served by government as the consumers of telecommunications services. Government doesn't exist to protect the rights of citizens who are consuming over those who are producing.

      This isn't strictly about producers and consumers - it's more about the ability of a very few corporations who own the connections to the home (AT&T, cable companies, etc) to block competition from other innovative companies. Or to extort money from other companies because they have an essential monopoly on those customers. It's about them being able to shut down Netflix to force people to buy from their on-demand services instead.

      Maybe it will make you feel better to know that pension funds, which keep a great many of our elderly working class and middle class housed and fed, are among the largest owners of those corporations.

      No, the vast majority of elderly are kept housed and fed by Social Security. The poorest 40% get 83% of their income from Social Security and only 4-7% from pension funds, the next 20% (the middle quintile) get 66% of their income from Social Security and only 17% from pension funds. The next 20% (upper middle class) get 47% of their income from Social Security and only 26% from pension funds. http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/07/30/are-we-a-nation-of-property-owners/

    11. Re:Is it really so outrageous? by beakerMeep · · Score: 1

      The problem is telcos are not producing content. Any plan that lets them set up as being able to charge based on the quality of content that they DONT produce, is tantamount to blessing rent seeking. They dont just hurt consumers, they hurt the whole ecosystem.

      --
      meep
    12. Re:Is it really so outrageous? by chemicaldave · · Score: 2

      The difference between corporations and citizens is that a for-profit corporation exists for the sole purpose of making money. In the case of ISPs, you have corporations trying to change the rules that the Internet was based solely for profit. Even the idea that Internet service should be anything but a public good is ludicrous. So no, fuck telecoms.

    13. Re:Is it really so outrageous? by Kjella · · Score: 1

      The difference between corporations and citizens is that a for-profit corporation exists for the sole purpose of making money.

      So it seems does many people, it's certainly within the choice of human lifestyles. The problem is more that corporations work on an opposing cycle to elections. In non-election years politicians pass your bills to build goodwill and get campaign contributions, in election years they use that money to make people forget who much a corporate shill they've been.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    14. Re:Is it really so outrageous? by Bespoke · · Score: 3, Insightful

      By owning a corporation you don't magically lose the protections you enjoy as an individual. Having the money to invest in corporations should not buy you more representation than those that can't afford to, or choose not to, own corporations. It's not that groups of people deserve less protection; it is that they don't deserve more protection - the whole "Equal Protection under the Law" thing you mention. Corporations already provide protection from certain liabilities - we really don't need to be granting them full citizen rights as well.

    15. Re:Is it really so outrageous? by Chowderbags · · Score: 1

      Government doesn't exist to protect the rights of citizens who are consuming over those who are producing.

      But why is so hell bent on protecting the rights (to profit) of those who don't produce anything besides hot air?

      I know the corporations are the 'bad' guys, but you don't want government playing favorites. Maybe it will make you feel better to know that pension funds, which keep a great many of our elderly working class and middle class housed and fed, are among the largest owners of those corporations.

      Pension funds? What are those? Pension funds don't exist for most people under 50. Now we're forced to play the 401k roulette, and hope we don't get raped by insider trading and a couple Wall Street executives, and if we lose 20-30% of our retirement fund from a stock market crash, we're shit outta luck. Social Security will probably be purposefully driven to insolvency by lack of action (but millionaires right now need tax cuts!), so it's not like anyone in their 20s can expect that to last.

    16. Re:Is it really so outrageous? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      No, you are wrong. I *don't have a pension fund with any of those corporations. SO GET OFF MY LAWN! I don't want to be overcharged (again!!!) for my slow pokey, 3rd world countries are faster than this internet! The distributors increase bandwidth, so that they can offer their own tv and phone service (on the internet backbone that I paid for!!!), and while offering all of these services --for a price-- they have the legal right --through good old net neutrality-- to kill off netflix and others. Oh, the law is on our side for both overcharging, and for killing off competition. And you say the corporate welfare is a good thing? Only if you are a shareholder of the corporation. Everyone else gets screwed dummy! So when I look at you, either 1) you are a paid shill for the corporation, 2) you are a corporate officer of the corporation, 3) you are a shareholder of the corporation or 4) you are a village idiot, gripping to the right-wing ideologies that are slowly stripping your rights, freedoms, opportunities, standard of living, basically everything.

    17. Re:Is it really so outrageous? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why?

      What is a corporation BUT a group of people working cooperatively and corporately towards a common goal?

      No, a corporation is, legally and conceptually, a separate entity from the people that work for it. It is treated as a person in a legal sense so as to provide legal protection to it's officers in the course of directing it (hence 'directors'). It's ONLY goal is to maximize profit.

      If a corporation were an actual person, it would be psychopathic.

      Are those people not to be served by our government? Are they somehow LESS deserving of equal protection because they act corporately?

      This is the lie of Socialism and anti-capitalism. That a group of people deserve less protection than another because they belong to that group.

      Realize that it's about the concept of incorporation and how it's gotten out of control in Western societies. Not Group A wants to fuck over Group B 'for teh proteteriats!'. The "Lie of Socialism and anti-capitalism' is a smokescreen.

      ProTip: Humans are social animals. For truly anti-social behavior look at the shark.

      The US Constitution is supposed to guarantee Equal Protection under the Law. This means corporations, being made up of Citizens, also get that same protection.

      Corporations, separate from those Citizens, also get protection, and they routinely use it to privatize profit and socialize losses. Frankly, the protections corporations get amount to them being created on third base, and they need to stop saying they hit a triple.

      Assaulting Net neutrality is just another example of this; there is seen an opportunity to expand profit on running internet service, by way of double dipping on the traffic carried, and will only result in the degradation of services that don't pay the toll. Thousands of web services drop out of the game as they are squeezed by lack of preferential treatment for delivery, the citizen consumer loses choice and variety as their internet pipe becomes VerizonNet (and partners), and only the carriers come out ahead.

      If you don't like it, there are plenty of places on earth that don't have equal protection. I suggest you go live there.

      If you already live there, then STFU about my country and worry about your own.

      Get past the Amercian Exceptionalism mindset, and you'd realize that this is an issue for most capitalist nations. And that STFU/GTFO arguments are asinine.

    18. Re:Is it really so outrageous? by hat_eater · · Score: 1

      What is a corporation BUT a group of people working cooperatively and corporately towards a common goal?

      A corporation consists of people in the same sense a car consists of parts. Every single one can be replaced at any moment. And the whole doesn't exist to cater to its parts. You described a cooperative.

    19. Re:Is it really so outrageous? by Monkeedude1212 · · Score: 1

      Why?

      What is a corporation BUT a group of people working cooperatively and corporately towards a common goal?

      Are those people not to be served by our government?

      They are served by the government, individually in their own right, in the way that every citizen is treated.

      Treating a corporation is like treating every citizen once, then treating those inside a corporation a second time, double dipping.

    20. Re:Is it really so outrageous? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      . Maybe it will make you feel better to know that pension funds, which keep a great many of our elderly working class and middle class housed and fed, are among the largest owners of those corporations.

      "Nice pension you got there. Be a shame if anything were to ... happen to it!"

    21. Re:Is it really so outrageous? by grahamd0 · · Score: 1

      Government doesn't exist to protect the rights of citizens who are consuming over those who are producing.

      This is absurd. The government should exist to serve only the needs of people.

      So when you buy corporate stock, you cease to be a person deserving of rights?

    22. Re:Is it really so outrageous? by chemicaldave · · Score: 2

      So when you buy corporate stock, you cease to be a person deserving of rights?

      Certainly not. I'm not saying being part of a corporation should deprive you of rights. However, owning stock should not grant you extra rights either over the consumers who support it.

    23. Re:Is it really so outrageous? by blincoln · · Score: 1

      Maybe it will make you feel better to know that pension funds, which keep a great many of our elderly working class and middle class housed and fed, are among the largest owners of those corporations.

      Pension funds? Did you post your message via time portal from the 1980s? The corporations you seem to love so much have done away with those (except possibly for executives). Maybe you mean 401Ks, but those are definitely not the same thing.

      --
      "...always new atoms but always doing the same dance, remembering what the dance was yesterday." -Richard Feynman
    24. Re:Is it really so outrageous? by Maltheus · · Score: 1

      A corporation is a government sponsored limited liability entity. In exchange for that advantage over ordinary people, they should be bound by reasonable restrictions. That's the price you pay for dancing with the government devil. I do however agree with you when it comes to proprietorships and partnerships. They clearly should be as free as any individual since they maintain the same level of responsibility.

    25. Re:Is it really so outrageous? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      WTF do you think a corporation is run by? Robots? To quote Ayn Rand:

      "Since there is no such entity as 'the public,' since the public is merely a number of individuals, the idea that 'the public interest' supersedes private interests and rights can have but one meaning: that the interests and rights of some individuals take precedence over the interests and rights of others."

    26. Re:Is it really so outrageous? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pension funds? Did you post your message via time portal from the 1980s? The corporations you seem to love so much have done away with those (except possibly for executives). Maybe you mean 401Ks, but those are definitely not the same thing.

      You're wrong. Pension funds are among the largest investors in the world today, 21 Dec 2010. See, for example, TIAA-CREF and CalPERS.

    27. Re:Is it really so outrageous? by fishexe · · Score: 1

      I know it's a crazy thing to say around here, but owners of the telecommunication companies are just as deserving of having their needs served by government as the consumers of telecommunications services.

      Not necessarily. It makes sense for government to protect those needs which are underrepresented by other forces, and ignore those needs which are adequately represented outside of government. See below.

      Government doesn't exist to protect the rights of citizens who are consuming over those who are producing. I don't know much about this ruling, but in general a compromise between those interests is a good thing.

      Government doesn't exist to protect the rights of consumers over producers, but it does exist to protect the rights of the weak over those of the strong. The strong have no need of government to protect their rights because they are adequately protected by their own strength. The weak would have no rights in practice if it were not for government, because they lack the strength to defend their own rights. So the question becomes, who are the weak and who are the strong here? I think consumers and small content producers are the weaker parties when it comes to Net Neutrality, and large content producers and ISPs are the stronger parties. In the absence of regulations, ISPs and large content providers get to make whatever rules they deem fit, and consumers have very little real choice in most internet-service markets.

      I know the corporations are the 'bad' guys, but you don't want government playing favorites. Maybe it will make you feel better to know that pension funds, which keep a great many of our elderly working class and middle class housed and fed, are among the largest owners of those corporations.

      Sure, but I do want government making sensible policy to balance the interests of all those affected, which sometimes means weighing against powerful corporations. I would hope they wouldn't hurt corporations just because "corporations are bad, grrrr," but I would hope they wouldn't be in the pocket of those corporations either. Not that the latter is at all realistic, but one can always hope, no?

      Again, maybe this ruling is different, but it wouldn't be a compromise if everyone was happy.

      Yeah, I have a hard time figuring out WTF happened when TFA doesn't even tell us something that was done, only something that's expected to happen, and no details except that "The FCC will cave."

      --
      "I don't care about the Constitution!" --Bill O'Reilly, November 17, 2009
    28. Re:Is it really so outrageous? by fishexe · · Score: 1

      The difference between corporations and citizens is that a for-profit corporation exists for the sole purpose of making money.

      To be fair, some citizens exist for the sole purpose of making money as well.

      --
      "I don't care about the Constitution!" --Bill O'Reilly, November 17, 2009
    29. Re:Is it really so outrageous? by Burpmaster · · Score: 1

      Your argument:

      1. Humans get equal protection under the law
      2. Corporations are composed of humans
      3. Therefore, corporations get equal protection under the law

    30. Re:Is it really so outrageous? by ThEATrE · · Score: 1

      "They [laws] ought to be so constituted as to protect the minority of the opulent against the majority." -James Madison http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2939630

  31. Internet2, anyone? by oh-dark-thirty · · Score: 2

    I say we all find a way to hop on before they fuck that one up too.

  32. Kos? by wytcld · · Score: 2

    If you've looked at Daily Kos in recent months, you'd know that most people posting there totally agree with the premise that Obama, while perhaps still not worse than W., is worse than any other president over the last century - including Nixon, who on many important matters (e.g. health care, full employment) was well to Obama's left, and who was no worse in getting bogged down in an unwinnable war for the sake of "honor" ... or something.

    Personally, I'd say our only hope is that something forces Obama to resign, and that President Biden, liberated from Obama's bad policy judgment and idealization of "bipartisanship," runs the country like a real Democrat - or at least like a man who's still got his balls attached. Then again, given Biden's recent cluelessness about WikiLeaks, this could be a thin hope.

    --
    "with their freedom lost all virtue lose" - Milton
    1. Re:Kos? by jwhitener · · Score: 1

      I'm not exactly sure what people think Obama could have done differently given that the Republicans intentionally broke the Senate.

      http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/01/the-rise-of-cloture-how-gop-filibuster-threats-have-changed-the-senate.php

      You think the Republicans would all of a sudden allow real progressive legislation to actually come up for a vote if Biden was President over Obama?

  33. Just the beginning by Pewpdaddy · · Score: 2

    ACTA is next, we'll have to create an underground internet to "use it as intended". Leave it to the sheep to let big business decide what is acceptable and what isn't. The media companies firmly believe if you scratch "their" CD/DVD even though you purchased it, your right to copy said legitimate media is null and void.

  34. Re:Why would the Chair sellout? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    You mean like posting "Obama FCC" when clearly "FCC" would do? No political bias there. I didn't see "Bush FCC" when the FCC did something annoying during his term.

  35. How to explain it? by khallow · · Score: 1
    I'm not a fan of net neutrality, but I see a very cynical and corrupt decision here. Two years ago, Timothy Karr was saying this:

    There's been heavy traffic over the Net Neutrality wires since the November 4 Election of Barack Hussein Obama, and it's not just because the president-elect was so outspoken in support of the principle while on the campaign trail.

    There has been a sea change in Washington since then, as the wonks, tech pundits and lobbyists align themselves with new leadership and the likelihood that Net Neutrality could become law soon.

    [...]

    Obama, Gore and Dorgan's support is no surprise. What's "mind blowing" according to some in the media, is AT&T's apparent change of heart.

    At the same conference, AT&T's lead policy VP, James Cicconi, said, "There's a lot of people who now believe that companies like AT&T are not plotting to overthrow the open Internet concept."

    Yet two long years later, the FCC ends up implementing a contrary policy. And the timing is ideal. It's after the midterms so there's no fallout for that and the old Congress is still in session so they won't get any serious opposition from the Republicans for another month. My take is that they intended something like this all along.

    I'm starting to wonder if Obama has written off his chances for reelection in 2012?

  36. disallow the cable company monopolies by wiredog · · Score: 1

    How? Someone (commonly referred to as a "cable company") has to run and maintain the cable. It's inefficient to have multiple cables running to the same place, which is how you end up with monopolies.

    1. Re:disallow the cable company monopolies by s73v3r · · Score: 2

      Not true. There's nothing saying that the company that runs the lines has to offer services. In fact, it shouldn't. The company that runs the lines should be completely split from any kind of content.

    2. Re:disallow the cable company monopolies by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      It's inefficient to have multiple companies covering the news, why don't we start granting news monopolies?
      The only reason we have cable monopolies is because the government said there could only be one cable provider in a region. There were many companies that were interested in running cable to compete in certain areas. They, for the most part, weren't allowed. The only thing they were allowed to compete for was the local franchise. Once they had it, your only choice was them or nobody.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    3. Re:disallow the cable company monopolies by Shotgun · · Score: 2

      How about the government retaining all control of and maintenance responsibility for any service which requires the power of eminent domain or enforced easements to implement. This would include the road systems, sewer systems, power systems, cable and telephone networks, etc. In the 1790 timeframe, roads were basically the only thing that were required for transportation and commerce. The Federal government was given responsibility for the roads, because it made sense for the people to own the infrastructure that all the people used. It still makes sense.

      --
      Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
      Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
    4. Re:disallow the cable company monopolies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Total BS. We have cable monopolies because municipalities sell monopoly rights to cable companies. After a long enough time of this, power was consolidated enough that being a start-up cable company just isn't realistic. If any company could string cable to your house, you would find more companies doing it. The really big cost of pulling cable is digging up the streets. Where poles are still in use, that is a non-issue. Where underground cabling is used, the real answer is to have municipalities install and rent pipes. Not data pipes, but real live physical pipes. Just like the ones they currently run and have vast experience in with water and sewer. Then the cities can rent access to the pipes to anyone willing to pay the price, new technology would be easy to implement, and competition could flourish.

    5. Re:disallow the cable company monopolies by fishexe · · Score: 1

      Not true. There's nothing saying that the company that runs the lines has to offer services. In fact, it shouldn't. The company that runs the lines should be completely split from any kind of content.

      And how would you stop them? Ban them from both owning lines and delivering content? Good luck with that. I mean, I agree, in a perfect world that's what we would do. But in this world? Like I said, good luck with that.

      --
      "I don't care about the Constitution!" --Bill O'Reilly, November 17, 2009
    6. Re:disallow the cable company monopolies by DarwinSurvivor · · Score: 1

      By that logic we may as well have multiple power companies each running their own power lines down our roads. As it is (in Canada anyways) the power companies (BC Hydro), the phone company (Telus) and the cable company (Shaw) all share the same poles. There are very strict policies between the 3 companies.

      What we need is for any company that pays to install cable to be *required* to lease the lines to any company at a *regulated* rate. The rates should be such that there is an advantage to installing and leasing out cables (to give incentive for companies to actually do so) but at the same time fair enough that a small ISP can start up without being crushed by the "big boys".

    7. Re:disallow the cable company monopolies by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      By that logic we may as well have multiple power companies each running their own power lines down our roads.

      Why not?

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    8. Re:disallow the cable company monopolies by DarwinSurvivor · · Score: 1

      Because each company needs cables to every house whether they have a customer there or not (because they might in the future). So the price of the physical cable is fixed at say $1M. If you split the customers between 2 companies, then each company needs $1M worth of cables but has half the customers, resulting in each customer paying (indirectly) for twice as much cable. Just imagine if there were 100 power companies (2 hydro, 3 few solar and 5 wind). That would be $10M worth of cable with no extra income into the system.

      If they share (or lease off each other) the cables, then there is still $1M worth of cables and nobody pays extra to cover the cost of cables running to houses of non-customers since the company supplying power to those other houses pay YOUR company (if your company layed the cable) to cover that cost.

      Now throw maintenance, extra power poles (those would be separate by your logic as well right?) and transfer boxes and you can probably see where your idea starts to fall apart.

    9. Re:disallow the cable company monopolies by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      No, sorry, I don't see where it falls apart. I see where the market might easily become saturated enough that none of the companies make any money, but that's not usually a complaint that people make.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    10. Re:disallow the cable company monopolies by DarwinSurvivor · · Score: 1

      How can you not see the problem with having to lay 10 times the cable to each house when all the networking corporations COMBINED can't even afford to properly connect all of their customers to start with. There are still MANY communities that have nothing but spotty dial-up and now you are suggesting that instead of trying to link those communities to proper pipes we should be adding completely redundant connections to houses that have had broadband or better for years?

      As for people not complaining about companies not making money, they sure complained a LOT when the US government had to bail out hundreds of companies (and dozens of HUGE ones) because their CEO's made stupid business decisions that wouldn't even come close to trying to run a cable to each home from each ISP in the country.

    11. Re:disallow the cable company monopolies by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      You see the first objection you raise to allowing open competition is caused by the lack of competition. It isn't that companies don't make enough money to "properly" connect all of their costumers, it is that the companies have no incentive to do so. If I had the choice of three or four companies providing me with cable connection (and except in rare circumstances that is all it would be), I could choose the one that provided me the service to cost I wished.
      As far as communities that only have dial up, that is not something we should be addressing, that is something for them to address as they choose. We shouldn't be adding redundant connections to houses either, but we should allow those that think they can do a better job of it than the present incumbents to give it a try.
      As to people complaining about the US government bailing out companies, that is because the way the free market is supposed to work is that if you make that kind of bad decision, you company goes out of business and someone else who isn't that stupid gets your customers.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    12. Re:disallow the cable company monopolies by DarwinSurvivor · · Score: 1

      I'm am in no way objecting to open competition, quite the opposite. For a new ISP to run cables to every home even in 1 city is a HUGE hurdle to overcome, if existing ISP's are required to lease their lines at reasonable rates, it PROMOTES competition.

      Remember, the original ISP's were given *TONS* of money from the government to overcome that initial hurdle, none of them would have survived otherwise, so how could a new ISP possible overcome that hurdle with existing competition to make that hurdle even higher.

  37. But it is a good surprise by Shivetya · · Score: 1

    because the FCC was making back room deals and dallying in areas they don't have the right too. The same FCC which was going to work deals with who could charge for what and for how much. Guaranteed that we would see guaranteed price increases and bundling of "approved services".

    The chairman was basically going to hand US (read you/me/etc) over the the big broadband companies. So, how money rules the world is insightful I will never know. Tell me how a government agency working hand in hand with the people selling the service is going to turn out good for me? It would result in fixed pricing meaning no one has to compete. It will probably cause me to have less services to select from as well.

    People seem to reading some mythical story about how this was all ponies and kitties, but look a little deeper and it wasn't pretty.

    --
    * Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
  38. Freedom for who? by wiredog · · Score: 1

    And freedom to do what?

    Who are the ISPs customers? You and me? Or are we the product?

    1. Re:Freedom for who? by characterZer0 · · Score: 1

      We are the stupid victims. We have been conned into voting for those who work against us to take our money and liberty.

      --
      Go green: turn off your refrigerator.
  39. Once again, kids, nobody "caved" by countertrolling · · Score: 1

    You all have been deluded into thinking that you are the client, that's all. The participants here have done an outstanding job and should all receive bonuses. This is cause for celebration, not despondency.

    --
    For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
  40. Nothing to do with net neutrality by greap · · Score: 1

    Scare mongering aside this post has nothing to do with net neutrality and everything to do with mobile carriers and how they already charge for data plans.

    If you happen to be one of the tiny number of people who are on an unlimited data plan now nothing will change, your carrier will still do everything in their power to stop you using Skype (assuming you can, most have had it blocked for years) and other data intensive applications which reduce their revenue and margins.

    If you are on a capped service nothing will change either. You are already paying for the data you consume.

    I would go as far as to say this is a good thing. If this had landed in mobile internet land the cost of connectivity would have gone up substantially and even the notion of an unlimited data plan would be gone forever. Rather than dealing with data intensive applications by either blocking them or restricting their usage to certain hours / bandwidth they would have had to let them though. The cost of data would have to rise to accommodate the fact the carriers were not allowed to discriminate so the average use would rise with all the Skypers and Torrenters.

    I’m pretty sure the last time we tried to tell an industry they couldn’t discriminate in service delivery (you know, 16 years ago when the Clinton administration told the banks they had to lend to poor people and brought in legislation to enforce it) it ended badly, perhaps an experiment not to repeat?

    1. Re:Nothing to do with net neutrality by furytrader · · Score: 1

      I have to agree - would the net neutrality issue go away if people were simply charged based on how much bandwidth they use -- kind of like what happens in the mobile internet already? If people want unlimited internet, they can pay for it. If they don't, why should they have to subsidize the network infrastructure expenses needed to continuously stream NetFlix to their neighbor's house when all they do is read email and Slashdot?

    2. Re:Nothing to do with net neutrality by spitzak · · Score: 1

      The carriers would "deal with data intensive applications" by limiting them ALL EQUALLY. Your service will not go down due to the "torrenters", what will happen is (assuming the carrier is doing their job) is you will get ok service, and the torrenter will not get any more bandwidth than you are using.

      This is trivial and would be allowed under pure Net Neutrality. But I'm sure you will continue to ignore it because it defeats your fantasy.

    3. Re:Nothing to do with net neutrality by greap · · Score: 2

      You seem to misunderstand how carriers (particularly mobile) set their pricing points. While they might offer 10gb a month they are relying on the fact most people won’t use that much, typically the cost of providing that much bandwidth to everyone would result in a loss for them.

      Currently they block or significantly restrict services that encourage people to use a significant portion of their allowance (or indeed detract from other revenue generating measures) which allows them to keep their price point low as their assumptions about how much data people will use (rather than how much they are allowed to use) still hold up.

      Bringing net neutrality to the mobile space would mean they would not longer to able to manage their networks to curb excessive bandwidth hogging applications. As soon as a fairly small minority of users is running at their 10gb a month cap they start making a loss and have to raise the price point to accommodate the new higher average usage.

      Consider also that the economics of mobile broadband are very different to that of fixed line. Once a fixed line is installed the opex on it is virtually 0, the expense is in providing bandwidth from the local exchange/node through to a backbone and each node has a much greater coverage area then a cell station too. With mobile provisioning a line results in close to 0 capex but has a fairly high opex associated which rises based on the amount of data that needs to reach it.

      The exception is appropriate in terms of economics and doesn’t present a realistic problem in terms of net neutrality of mobile data either.

    4. Re:Nothing to do with net neutrality by spitzak · · Score: 1

      Yes if everybody goes full bore on the net, it will be divided equally and the users will get a lot less than 10gb. This has NOTHING to do with net neutrality and would be true if everybody tried to watch Comcast's video service at the same time.

      In fact without net neutrality any such "10g" guarantee is even more meaningless. It would mean you would lose out on it much sooner as other preferred services occupy more of the bandwidth.

  41. Re:Why would the Chair sellout? by Nadaka · · Score: 1

    Wasn't he appointed by the Democrat president? Or was he a Bush appointee? I assume the latter if he's bending-over to appease the megacorps.

    Party affiliation only determines which megacorps he wants to bend over for. One way or the other, the corporations will bend you over anyway.

  42. Re:Why would the Chair sellout? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Damn, missed the 'i' in the link.
    Julius Genachowski

  43. So what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So what? Without that wording, you can have an ISP prefer their own VOIP solution.

  44. "...some are more equal than others" by dazedNconfuzed · · Score: 1

    The "all packets must be treated equally, no exceptions" version

    Bandwidth is a limited resource. When there isn't enough of it, what to do?

    Those replacing their TV service with streaming video want great data quantity.
    Those playing low-latency real-time games want great ping time.
    Those using little of either want great prices.
    Declaring "all packets must be treated equally" isn't realistic.

    When there isn't enough bandwidth, what to do?
    A per-packet charge creates an unrealistic >4-order-of-magnitude difference in price between couch-potato streaming video vs. email-checking grandma.
    A latency-reduction charge violates "all treated equally".

    Indeed, some packets are more equal than others.
    What to do?

    --
    Can we get a "-1 Wrong" moderation option?
    1. Re:"...some are more equal than others" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hows about investing some of their increased profits plus the tax dollars they have been given to improve their networks to actually do so?

      Comcast Profit up 12%
      Comcast Profits Rise Despite the Recession
      Time Warner Profits up 7%, Beating Forcasts

    2. Re:"...some are more equal than others" by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      Bandwidth is a limited resource. When there isn't enough of it, what to do?

      ISPs can upgrade their infrastructure and stop overselling their connections, that's what.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
  45. Cheap geeks betrayed by FCC by LaissezFaire · · Score: 0

    Geeks everywhere who don't want to pay for the bandwidth they use have been betrayed by the FCC. The Federal Communications Commission, having been delegated the Constitutional powers of Congress to regulate Interstate Commerce, absolutely refused to tell all network backbone providers that they were unable to set their own rates for using their services.

    "I can't believe the FCC won't make AT&T pay for all the bandwidth I want to use on my iPhone" says Liam McCrossen, who hacked his first iPhone years ago, and has only bricked two since. "Just because I want to see streaming video of the old COMDEX conventions doesn't mean I should have to pay for it." McCrossen, who hasn't taken any economics or business classes, is pretty sure the network providers will raise everyone's rates equally rather than just bumping up the cost of his unlimited data plan. "I'm also against paying for trash removal by the trash can" McCrossen opined.

    The FCC has been unavailable for comment in their failure to "stick it to the man" and allow some companies to freely enter into contracts.

    1. Re:Cheap geeks betrayed by FCC by spitzak · · Score: 1

      Check two posts above yours, where another anti-NN dittohead is instead saying "it will end unlimited data plans and that will be horrible!!!!"

      Wow, you guys will use any reason you can think of, won't you. Does not matter if they absolutely contradict each other.

    2. Re:Cheap geeks betrayed by FCC by LaissezFaire · · Score: 1

      The free market is allowed to have choices in services. Not so much in Government services, though.

      Feel free to continue to ignore possible negative secondary consequences.

    3. Re:Cheap geeks betrayed by FCC by spitzak · · Score: 1

      I'm not ignoring secondary consequences.

      I am however ignoring totally contradictory consequences: you say "this regulation would have forced unlimited data plans" (with your attempt to be sarcastic).

      The other poster says "this regulation would have ended unlimited data plans" (actually this I believe is true while your post is just idiotic).

  46. Hey, now... by timeaisis · · Score: 1

    I don't like lobbyists as much as the next guy. In fact, I hate 'em. Their screwing up the whole system. This entire administration is built around special interest groups. That said, this Net Neutrality grid lock is a good thing. I mean, yeah, it is going to fail for the wrong reasons (like apeasing AT&T), but an internet in the hands of some big cable providers is better than one regulated by the FCC. The FCC, need I remind you, is responsible for the Fairness Doctrine and the Equal Time Rule, two of the most outrageous and stupid mandates ever created. Anyhow, do you want that to happen with the internet? Some regulations regarding its content? NO! That's exactly what Net Neutrality is trying to do and failing horribly. Well, people, the FCC is going to do the same thing. Read the fine print: Do you know what regulation means? It means its not going to end with a couple of "don't do this" mandates to AT&T and partway down the road were going to ask ourselves "why the hell did we want this again?"

  47. Get Some Perspective! by Arccot · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Could we actually get an article with some details, rather than an editorial about what the policy MIGHT contain?

    Commenters here and at Huffington Post are seriously suggesting we have a second American Revolution because you didn't get everything you wanted on a Net Neturality policy change?

    Jesus, get some perspective! I hope most of you realize that this is the first time Net Neturality is being tried in the US. At all. Anyone spending more than 5 minutes looking into Net Neutrality realize its a complex issue that can't be solved with "Don't discriminate." There are unintended consequences for any action they take.

    You do realize that policies can be changed at a later date, right? They aren't written in stone. These policies make more sense than the alternative of doing nothing, and they make more sense than being heavy handed and creating more problems then they solve. If problems crop up, they can be dealt with.

    1. Re:Get Some Perspective! by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      Commenters here and at Huffington Post are seriously suggesting we have a second American Revolution because you didn't get everything you wanted on a Net Neturality policy change?

      Right, and on the other side, Fox News is publishing an opinion piece labelling this a "coup d'état".

      The funny thing is that none of the people publishing these radical perspectives actually know what is in the order being voted on.

    2. Re:Get Some Perspective! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Commenters here and at Huffington Post are seriously suggesting we have a second American Revolution because you didn't get everything you wanted on a Net Neturality policy change?

      Why not? The first one was about a change in tax policy.

    3. Re:Get Some Perspective! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Make sure you come back and check this comment a few years from now....

      Since after nothing changes and nothing gets reversed, we would like to come back and make sure you know we were right. Because we are.

    4. Re:Get Some Perspective! by spiffmastercow · · Score: 1

      I hope most of you realize that this is the first time Net Neturality is being tried in the US. At all. Anyone spending more than 5 minutes looking into Net Neutrality realize its a complex issue that can't be solved with "Don't discriminate."

      No, I'm pretty sure that's exactly all there is to it. All packets are equal, and all ISPs are common carriers. If there's some major fatal flaw here (aside from "but the establishment won't get as much money"), I'd like to hear it.

    5. Re:Get Some Perspective! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The FCC is keeping the actual rules secret for a couple days.

    6. Re:Get Some Perspective! by Arccot · · Score: 1

      No, I'm pretty sure that's exactly all there is to it. All packets are equal, and all ISPs are common carriers.

      Traffic that should be given high priority includes VOIP, video conferencing, infrastructure interfaces (hospitals, fire stations, security companies, etc.), and anything else that requires a nearly live transmission (OnLive, for example).

      Anything the network can ID as an attack, such as DDOS's, should be decreased in priority or dropped.

    7. Re:Get Some Perspective! by spiffmastercow · · Score: 1

      I agree on the DDOS example, however I would say that you don't really need to prioritize the others, because all that's left is people surfing the net, and that doesn't take up much bandwidth. The basic problem here is that the cable companies decided they would rather up their rates than improve their infrastructure. There is no legitimate reason that we shouldn't all have gigabit-to-the-home, other than the fact that the cable companies would make less in profit.

    8. Re:Get Some Perspective! by WML+MUNSON · · Score: 2

      You do realize that policies can be changed at a later date, right? They aren't written in stone. These policies make more sense than the alternative of doing nothing, and they make more sense than being heavy handed and creating more problems then they solve. If problems crop up, they can be dealt with.

      You do realize that if proper net neutrality is not enforced, even for a short while, large corporations will very quickly become the de-facto gatekeepers of the worlds information /and/ economic markets, right? These corporations could end up wielding as much or more influence over society than governments (i.e. us).

      Do you really want to go down this road? Even for a single day?

    9. Re:Get Some Perspective! by blahplusplus · · Score: 1

      "Commenters here and at Huffington Post are seriously suggesting we have a second American Revolution because you didn't get everything you wanted on a Net Neturality policy change?"

      Uhh were you awake the last 10 years, it is far more then just about net neutrality... take stock of what has happened more then a few days ago. Some days I wonder if people are even awake.

      http://dailybail.com/

      Most important video you will ever see!

      http://dailybail.com/home/there-are-no-words-to-describe-the-following-part-ii.html

    10. Re:Get Some Perspective! by deathtopaulw · · Score: 1

      It's not simply the fact that Net Neutrality is the 20 page book report being torn into tiny pieces by the classroom bullies that are the telcos. It's that this has been a pattern of behavior between big business and government for decades. I'm starting to think armed revolution is our only way out of the downward spiral.

  48. Go President Lawnchair! by damn_registrars · · Score: 3, Funny

    Can you fold under pressure?

    Like a lawnchair I can!

    --
    Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
  49. Victory For Freedom by Dredd13 · · Score: 1, Flamebait

    I hate to break it to the entitlement-crowd, but those corporations built those networks with their own money, and own it outright, and as such, they get to be the supreme authority on what data traverses those networks, who pays how much to connect to any part of that network (as an end-user, a peer, or as a content-provider).

    If you want to say "The government paid for ARPAnet", you fail, and get to have a 128kbps US-only backbone.

    If you want to say "The government gives the network providers all sorts of tax-breaks and subsidies, so we get to have a say in how it's run", you fail, because your lawmakers didn't tie those sorts of conditions into those subsidies and tax-breaks, and you don't get to play Darth Vader and "alter the deal, pray I don't alter it any further" down the road.

    If you don't like your ISP's business practices, find a new one.

    If there isn't another, and you think there's like-minded folks out there, find yourself some investors, and build your own ISP. It's actually somewhat trivial to do.

    If your local municipality has locked out competition via a "Franchise Agreement", well, now is an excellent time to vote those bastards out of office, or start getting involved in local politics.

    The problem isn't that "ISPs are filtering/packet-shaping/blocking traffic", it's that your local governments have been propping up a monopoly. Voting against "net neutrality" is voting for the rights of property holders to do what they want with the property they have paid good money for.

    1. Re:Victory For Freedom by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      There is a problem in this line of logic in that ISP's are much like utility companies. They are local monopolies and on purpose. Local utility companies are given monopoly powers because it was determined that giving one company the responsibility of ripping up city roads to run pipe was better than having constant construction by anyone all the time. The major carriers were granted the ability to disrupt our lives with construction and the freedom to lay wire in exchange for common carrier status (never mind the public funds that are poured into these projects). Unfortunately, we don't have a very long memory so the common carrier restrictions were lifted, people rallied around the idea of pure capitalism (which does not exist, and I would argue forces corporations to act like psychopaths against the common good), and now we are left with expensive slow internet -- with talk of making it more expensive if you actually want to use it. Sigh.

    2. Re:Victory For Freedom by ZOmegaZ · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I hate to break it to the corporatist crowd, but the ISPs built those networks with our money, from government subsidies. They received those subsidies to enhance our national infrastructure. If monopolists have the same property rights as everyone else, the free market dies. And if monopolists control infrastructure without oversight to ensure equal access, democracy dies.

    3. Re:Victory For Freedom by Dhalka226 · · Score: 1

      If you want to say "The government gives the network providers all sorts of tax-breaks and subsidies, so we get to have a say in how it's run", you fail, because your lawmakers didn't tie those sorts of conditions into those subsidies and tax-breaks, and you don't get to play Darth Vader and "alter the deal, pray I don't alter it any further" down the road.

      Of couse we can, and there are all sorts of ways of going about it, directly or indirectly, if that's what we choose to do: Simply regulating it the way we want it, almost sure to pass constitutional muster; attack them with anti-trust regulations, since backbone providers are clear (natural) monopolies; torpedo their other interests unless they agree to do what we want (you want to acquire such-and-such company or get access to new spectrum for your cell technology? -- nope!); targeted taxes or fees that will be waived for compliance with certain rules (if you didn't read the word "mammoth" into this sentence, try again); revoke or tax their use of the public right of way for non-compliance. And that's about fifteen seconds off the top of my head.

      That it might not sit right with you from your personal set of morals and your particular view of the right of the government is irrelevant to what we can do. If you think otherwise, to borrow your phrase, you fail. (A phrase, by the way, that you can take right back to World of Warcraft where self-righteous idiocy like that belongs.)

    4. Re:Victory For Freedom by Dredd13 · · Score: 0

      Thanks for not reading my post. You fail.

      Your lawmakers didn't put any conditions on those subsidies that allow you to dictate terms. They received those subsidies for large numbers of reasons including but not limited to national infrastructure, job creation, kickbacks, and lawmakers wanting to seem tech-friendly come election time. But, at the end of they day, the subsidies didn't come with codified "and you'll use it how we say" clauses so you don't get to change the rules now.

      kthxbye.

    5. Re:Victory For Freedom by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I hate to break it to the entitlement-crowd,

      adhominems as opening gambits don't do much for your credibility

      "The government paid for ARPAnet", you fail, and get to have a 128kbps US-only backbone.

      they did.. well we did with tax dollars. did the isps add more to it? yes. to what do they owe the explosive growth and value of the network? the fact it is transport and not content based. statistically, you probably owe your job to this fact.

      If you don't like your ISP's business practices, find a new one.

      seriously? SERIOUSLY? for most people there is no choice. Those that do have choice only have it with endpoint providers, which have to fall into line with the backbones anyway.. there..is...no...choice.

      The problem isn't that "ISPs are filtering/packet-shaping/blocking traffic", it's that your local governments have been propping up a monopoly. Voting against "net neutrality" is voting for the rights of property holders to do what they want with the property they have paid good money for.

      Ah I see, so as long as the dictator isn't the government, everything's ok? You do realize that large businesses have just as much incentive to censor and control expression as governments do?

      The reality is that I don't see a victory for freedom no matter how the line is cut: net neutrality will bring out eventual government censorship, and without it, the ISPs become little aol-like cellular providers who nickel and dime customers to death while dictating what can be done on the internet. either way, most of the value of the network is lost.

    6. Re:Victory For Freedom by cyber-vandal · · Score: 1

      Who owns the internet backbone in the USA and and how difficult would they make life for anyone trying to set up an independent ISP?

    7. Re:Victory For Freedom by fnj · · Score: 2

      People who repeatedly bleat "you fail" without any citations to prove their points only weaken their position. I agree with those of your points which make sense, which is about half of them. But telling people who want decent service at a fair price to "find a new [ISP]" or "build your own ISP" is just insulting.

      No matter how many times you repeat that the FCC and government bodies don't have the right to regulate this particular capitalist money machine, they clearly do. The FCC could just as easily have come up with a directive which better serves the public. Many pundits thought they would. Maybe Congress will still force them to at some point. If the government can tell me as a restaurant or tavern owner whom I must serve and what conditions I must meet in my dining room and what practices (smoking) I must disallow my patrons, it most certainly can bitch slap AT&T and Comcast into shape. Capitalism as we know it can ONLY exist courtesy of governmental support. Yes, some form of free market can exist absent governmental oversight and regulation, but it wouldn't include the corporations in their present form, their principles by and large protected from legal measures against their actions by the government-provided corporate shield legal system.

      Regulation vs freedom is a delicate balance, but one which is grossly, blatantly tipped in the favor of big business and against the public in the US.

    8. Re:Victory For Freedom by MichaelKristopeit308 · · Score: 0
      thanks for your absolutely correct assessment of the ignorant hypocrites populating this internet web site chat room message board.

      slashdot = stagnated.

    9. Re:Victory For Freedom by Dredd13 · · Score: 1

      How do you figure that backbone providers are "clear natural monopolies" .. there's dozens of them, it's probably one of the most competitive markets out there. Good luck finding anyone with any grasp of economics who agrees with that assessment.

      And be cautious about making ludicrous demands of carriers and expecting them to put up or shut up. Telco geeks from the 90s will remind you of how California almost legislated itself into the dark ages when PacBell and GTE both gave notice to the CPUC that they were going to pull out of California and take their copper outside plant and central-office equipment with them, all over ludicrous Caller ID regulation (which pretty much got changed overnight). That's a high-stakes game of chicken you're playing there and you might not like the way the other guy drives his particular tractor.

    10. Re:Victory For Freedom by zentec · · Score: 2

      In the context of wireless, it's not trivial. There are spectrum auctions, licensing, site acquisition and leasing, marketing and customer support. The fact that you call it trivial betrays a certain ignorance on the topic. It's not dial-up.

      More importantly, the "entitlement-crowd" is also known as "the customer crowd". As it stands at this very moment, I have an entitlement with AT&T for data carriage services from my smart phone to any site I so desire. That entitlement remains as long as my check cashes. If AT&T decides that their network infrastructure provides a better return on investment by prioritizing or engaging in tiers of service, then I will indeed find another ISP. And if necessary, I will go without a smart phone if it no longer fits what deem as an acceptable level of service.

      I'm not alone in this thinking. While I greatly enjoy all the benefits of a smart phone with internet connectivity, piss me off and I'll slide my SIM into my $40 dumb phone, cancel all my data plans and AT&T just lost $180 month while conniving to get an extra $20 a month out of me in incremental service charges.

      Having worked in the wireless industry, I agree that wireless data is fundamentally different than cable or wire-line access due to the scarcity of spectrum. But that isn't an open invitation to fleece the customer, and that is what this is about more than anything. Wall Street wants an ever increasing amount of flesh, and managers are required to deliver in order to justify their own entitlements.

    11. Re:Victory For Freedom by Dredd13 · · Score: 1

      No matter how many times you repeat that the FCC and government bodies don't have the right to regulate this particular capitalist money machine, they clearly do.

      You mean, of course, besides the appeals court decision (FCC v. Comcast) where they were actually explicitly told by the court that they *don't* have the right to tell an ISP what to do with their network?

      That would, for the record, be the only standing case-law on the topic at the moment, and it's a big sack of "no authority" for the FCC.

      Capitalism as we know it can ONLY exist courtesy of governmental support

      Well, see, that's where the statists have fooled you. True capitalism needs no government support at all.

    12. Re:Victory For Freedom by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Yes, it's the government's fault. Corporations can and will take advantage of whatever loopholes and advantages you give them. That's just what they do, and blaming them is a waste of time. So, yes, the people need to force the government to create rules that force the corporations to behave in ways that serve the public good.

      If you want to say "The government gives the network providers all sorts of tax-breaks and subsidies, so we get to have a say in how it's run", you fail, because your lawmakers didn't tie those sorts of conditions into those subsidies and tax-breaks, and you don't get to play Darth Vader and "alter the deal, pray I don't alter it any further" down the road.

      Well every new law is pretty much a "I've altered the deal" situation. Citizens don't like the fact that a law extends copyright, or makes a previously legal activity illegal, or alters the value of an investment (e.g. real-estate) they made, or changes one's projections with respect to retirement funds, or whatever. Corporations also have to deal with the fact that new laws may alter the status quo. That's life. We gave them the tax breaks and subsidies because we thought it would make the country better. If we want to stop the flow of tax breaks and subsidies, we can do so at anytime.

      Voting against "net neutrality" is voting for the rights of property holders to do what they want with the property they have paid good money for.

      If only it were that simple. All of our property rights have limits. I own some land but that doesn't mean I can build whatever I want on it. The safety of the public and the environment need to be considered. Various easements restrict me further (e.g. utilities running through our backyards). And so on.

      Besides, the network operates do not own the entire thing. Actually they don't own most of it. Did they purchase millions of miles of land, where all their cables run? No. They are borrowing that land from various levels of government (running under municipal roads, alongside state highways, etc.) or through easements through the property of private citizens. In both cases, this amounts to the public lending certain rights-of-way to these companies. So if these companies are not using these lent resources in a way that we like, why should we continue lending them? Besides the companies can only operate when government/society makes various levels of infrastructure available to them (e.g. to maintain "their" infrastructure they crucially rely on the roads, electricity, etc. that society provides to all). It makes perfect sense for the public, when they notice these companies doing things not in the public interest, to re-open negotiations about what those companies offer and what they take from the public.

      It would be a different matter if we were trying to legislate about how a company should run its internal network that doesn't extend past the land they've purchased. Or if the networks were (somehow) able to build and operate their infrastructure without all those easements. But that's not the case with modern network operates. They only exist because of the substantial concessions which society makes. We make those concessions, related to our property, because of the value those companies provide. When they cease to provide the value we want, we are under no moral obligation to keep providing them with the sweet deal they've come to rely on.

    13. Re:Victory For Freedom by Dredd13 · · Score: 1

      Dozens of carriers have "internet backbones" and independent ISPs and content providers pay them for access to it every day.

    14. Re:Victory For Freedom by Dredd13 · · Score: 1

      As it stands at this very moment, I have an entitlement with AT&T for data carriage services from my smart phone to any site I so desire. That entitlement remains as long as my check cashes.

      Your ATTW terms of service includes plenty of provisions in there to let them traffic-shape at will, so it's not quite the "any site I so desire" you make it out to be. And they can certainly charge a content-provider for access to their network. They're not restricting YOUR right to access on the network, just that other guy (who you may want to talk to, but who ATTW is unwilling to talk to).

      Yes, there are higher barriers to entry in the wireless industry than in the wireline industry, but if you think your business model is superior to the existing carriers, find yourself some investors who agree and start investing in that infrastructure. If your business model truly is superior, you shouldn't have any trouble finding investors who want to make money! That's what investors live for, after all, is cold hard cash.

    15. Re:Victory For Freedom by Sockatume · · Score: 1

      It doesn't provide a direct contractual way for them to say how the networks should/shouldn't be run, but it does give them the moral authority to step in and take action on anticompetitive or other grounds. If the government can give corporations a boost for the nation's best interests, it's entitled to give them a kick in the balls for the same reasons.

      --
      No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
    16. Re:Victory For Freedom by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except thats not how the internet was built. The US Gov. gave grants to put up power lines & poles, and then gave billions more in grants to get copper strung up to homes across the country.

      If it were to have been stock, the taxpayers would be the largest shareholders by far of the entire US telecom industry. The people DO deserve neutrality.

    17. Re:Victory For Freedom by Eil · · Score: 1

      So basically, because the ISP monopolies got away with screwing municipalities in the past, they are now have a license to continue doing so indefinitely.

    18. Re:Victory For Freedom by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Libertarian answer: if you don't like the internet, you can make your own internet.

    19. Re:Victory For Freedom by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I hate to break it to the anti "entitlement-crowd" person, but in a democracy "the crowd" are actually entitled to have an opinion and if they don't like what is going on, and there are enough of them, then they get to have their way, i.e the people are the supreme authority. Thats how its meant to work anyway.

      In this example, those corporations who built the networks knew the rules when they invested the money, and if the people decide its in their best interests keep net neutrality, then I say its just tough for the corporations.

    20. Re:Victory For Freedom by Dredd13 · · Score: 1

      No. anyone can start an ISP. It's trivial to do. If the municipalities have locked competition out of an individual city's marketplace, that's for their constituents to sort out.

    21. Re:Victory For Freedom by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, but the corporations who built those networks did so with tax dollars (paid with grants from various different government agencies including the FCC), on and under land owned by the public (a la public easement for utilities), with the express intent of being like any other utility service which contains a provision to serve the public good. So, your assertion that they paid for and own the network backbones (and in most cases, last mile loop) you're 100% incorrect.

      So, no, this isn't a victory for freedom, this is a victory for money. This is a victory for telecom giants who spent a tiny bit of their own money to cover a tiny fraction of the cost of laying the lines that make up our backbones, and then expect to be handed the entire network because... hey, screw you. This is a victory for the real entitlement crowd, that being the corporations who believe their less than 10% investment in dark fiber somehow entitles them to 100% of the data going over that fiber.

      I used to work for Comcast and part of my job was justifying new cable runs and maintenance to existing cable. The ROI for most cable laid on public lands is ~35:1, that is to say for every dollar they spent on putting cable in the ground or on the pole they've made 35 dollars back. This is why Comcast refuses service to areas that have no public easement unless the customer is a business or the rare individual who's willing to pay Comcast's inflated cable run charges, and there exists the possibility to sell service to other customers in the area over the same line.

      So, if you had an office or factory at the end of a private road with no other businesses or residences within a few hundred feet, you wouldn't even be able to talk Comcast in to taking your money.

      As for your political solutions, what the hell do you think the Net Neutrality hubbub is bub?

    22. Re:Victory For Freedom by interkin3tic · · Score: 1

      and you don't get to play Darth Vader and "alter the deal, pray I don't alter it any further" down the road.

      Why not? Are we going to pretend the US government is too moral to do such things, or that telecoms don't deserve that treatment?

      If you don't like your ISP's business practices, find a new one. If there isn't another, and you think there's like-minded folks out there, find yourself some investors, and build your own ISP. It's actually somewhat trivial to do.

      Alright, now you're just being obtuse.

    23. Re:Victory For Freedom by careysub · · Score: 1

      Other issues the Libertarian Purist ignores: the lines don't run over their own private property.

      They run over public lands, and ALSO other people's private property for which the government granted easements without compensation to the owner. If property rights are supreme then those easements don't exist and land owners can demand removal or extort whatever fees they deem suitable to leave them in place. And of course the government can regulate anything on government land.

      Interstate Commerce Clause. The ability to regulate interstate commerce is an enumerated power in the U.S. Constitution. Congress absolutely has the right to regulate how ISPs and backbones operate.

      --
      Starships were meant to fly, Hands up and touch the sky - Nicky Minaj
    24. Re:Victory For Freedom by Dredd13 · · Score: 1

      Alright, now you're just being obtuse.

      Because I think that it's fairly easy to build an ISP? Why is that obtuse. It's true, it is pretty easy.

    25. Re:Victory For Freedom by MobyDisk · · Score: 1

      ...build your own ISP. It's actually somewhat trivial to do.If your local municipality has locked out competition...

      This isn't just a few municipalities: this is everywhere. And it actually makes some sense because wiring is a natural monopoly - you can't physically have 100 companies running 100 sets of lines to your house. What you want is 1 or 2 companies running lines to your house, and 100 ISPs providing service over those lines. That is how it was a decade ago. Network neutrality is the first step toward getting back to that. (Or really, it is more like a wall to stop us from going in the wrong direction.)

      Also: When they built those networks, we had common carrier laws that demanded network neutrality. The only reason we are in this mess at all is because a few judges and congressman didn't understand that voice data should not be legally different from digital data.

    26. Re:Victory For Freedom by brendank310 · · Score: 1

      ...and you don't get to play Darth Vader and "alter the deal, pray I don't alter it any further" down the road.

      Isn't that exactly what these companies do all the time when they change they're policies without notice?

    27. Re:Victory For Freedom by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I hate to break it to the entitlement-crowd, but those corporations built those networks with their own money, and own it outright, and as such, they get to be the supreme authority on what data traverses those networks, who pays how much to connect to any part of that network (as an end-user, a peer, or as a content-provider).

      Umm, well, no, see, we do regulate things from time to time, even wholly private enterprises.

      If you want to say "The government paid for ARPAnet", you fail, and get to have a 128kbps US-only backbone.

      You want private industry to take all the credit, because it took something small and built the fuck out of it? Not one iota of credit for the inventors of the IP protocol, of routing and all the other things that were needed to get ARPAnet running?

      I always thought big business was all about innovators and stuff.

      If you want to say "The government gives the network providers all sorts of tax-breaks and subsidies, so we get to have a say in how it's run", you fail, because your lawmakers didn't tie those sorts of conditions into those subsidies and tax-breaks, and you don't get to play Darth Vader and "alter the deal, pray I don't alter it any further" down the road.

      Whoo hooo free money! Mmm mm mm privatize them thar profits boys!

      Sure puts the lie to your "owned it outright" statement above, tho, doesn't it...

      If you don't like your ISP's business practices, find the other one.

      FTFY.

      If there isn't another, and you think there's like-minded folks out there, find yourself some investors, and build your own ISP. It's actually somewhat trivial to do.

      Oh yes, fucking trivial. To quote Pvt Hudson, (also a former small ISP owner, I have on good authority): "Hey, maybe you haven't been keeping up on current events, but we just got our asses kicked, pal!".

      If your local municipality has locked out competition via a "Franchise Agreement", well, now is an excellent time to vote those bastards out of office, or start getting involved in local politics.

      First sensible thing you said all post, though I'd strike the first 26 words as being superfluous.

      The problem isn't that "ISPs are filtering/packet-shaping/blocking traffic", it's that your local governments have been propping up a monopoly. Voting against "net neutrality" is voting for the rights of property holders to do what they want with the property they have paid subsidy good money for.

      FTFY.

    28. Re:Victory For Freedom by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well put sir! This was never a net neutrality bill nor was it ever meant to be, its entire purpose is/was a Imperial Federal Government power grab...

    29. Re:Victory For Freedom by fnj · · Score: 2

      Thank you for your continued interest in what I think is an important line of debate to all, no matter which side they are on.

      1) The court ruled that the FCC "has failed to tie its assertion" of regulatory authority to an actual law enacted by Congress. For some unfathomable reason, internet carriage has failed to be classified as telecommunications. Some "i" has not been dotted somewhere; some "t" not crossed. I don't know why. The FCC could just classify internet carriage as telecommunications. Then that could be litigated. Good luck to Comcast trying to claim that communications over a distance is not telecommunications.

      Also; I readily admit I don't know why the litigation stopped at this appeals court; why the appeals court was allowed to be the last word. We have this thing called the "Supreme Court." It must be good for something :-)

      2) I would phrase it that a free market, not "true capitalism," needs no government support at all. I doubt anyone can define "true capitalism," but "free market" is self explanatory. That is why I was careful to say that "capitalism as we know it" cannot exist without the connivance of the government.

    30. Re:Victory For Freedom by Hatta · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Your lawmakers didn't put any conditions on those subsidies that allow you to dictate terms.

      We don't need to have put conditions on those subsidies. If the cable companies don't play nice with their toys, we will take them away. We, the people, make the rules. If they are not behaving in a way that benefits society, we can change the law to deal with that.

      Or to put it another way, those subsidies didn't come with any restrictions, but they didn't come with any promises either.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    31. Re:Victory For Freedom by Chowderbags · · Score: 1

      I hate to break it to the entitlement-crowd, but those corporations built those networks with their own money, and own it outright, and as such, they get to be the supreme authority on what data traverses those networks, who pays how much to connect to any part of that network (as an end-user, a peer, or as a content-provider).

      Heavily subsidized. Even if we discount that, we can compare to telephone communication. It's illegal for telephone companies to discriminate traffic, even if they own the lines. If you want supreme authority over your lines, don't have customers. Otherwise, be prepared to accept that there are regulations.

      If you want to say "The government gives the network providers all sorts of tax-breaks and subsidies, so we get to have a say in how it's run", you fail, because your lawmakers didn't tie those sorts of conditions into those subsidies and tax-breaks, and you don't get to play Darth Vader and "alter the deal, pray I don't alter it any further" down the road.

      That'd be great if the ISPs had spent it on anything other than executive bonuses. If I give you $1000 to upgrade the windows on my house, even if I don't put in any other conditions, I still get to expect that you actually put new windows in.

      And even if that were not the case, there are still plenty of rules of commerce on everything. For a damn good reason. Meat factories don't get to deny inspectors entry just because they're private property. Airlines can't deny black people tickets. Car companies can't tell you that you can only drive your car under 40 miles an hour on Sundays. ISPs can have limits too.

      If you don't like your ISP's business practices, find a new one.

      There's two in my area (a decently sized metropolitan area). Verizon and Cox. Verizon isn't too bad to me, so I can't complain about them, but I don't have many options if they turn nasty.

      If there isn't another, and you think there's like-minded folks out there, find yourself some investors, and build your own ISP. It's actually somewhat trivial to do.

      Doesn't help if you can't get right of way access for your cables. And the barrier to entry is pretty high anyway.

      If your local municipality has locked out competition via a "Franchise Agreement", well, now is an excellent time to vote those bastards out of office, or start getting involved in local politics.

      Doesn't help if those bastards sign multiyear contracts as their terms expire.

      The problem isn't that "ISPs are filtering/packet-shaping/blocking traffic", it's that your local governments have been propping up a monopoly. Voting against "net neutrality" is voting for the rights of property holders to do what they want with the property they have paid good money for.

      Those same ISPs that have government support to violate my property rights to put up their cables regardless of what I want? That take my tax dollars (by bribing my representatives)? The ones that advertise saying I get X Mbps connection to the internet, then tack on restrictions in size .0002 font saying that I really get X/100 connection and they can alter their agreement without my knowledge or consent?

      There's plenty of shit I can't do on my own property, for a damn good reason. I can't pour used motor oil into a stream, I can't burn tires, I can't run a meth lab, etc. We accept that there are limits to property rights because we weigh the benefit to society as a whole of restricting some individual rights. Yes, there are times where the government goes over the line (oh so many times), but it does not cross the line to prevent a corporate entity from infringing on our ability to transmit ideas and information freely across what might be the most important communications medium yet created.

    32. Re:Victory For Freedom by asdfghjklqwertyuiop · · Score: 1

      Are you also advocating equal rights for everyone to lay cables under streets and all over private property? Or should only a handful of corporations continue to have those special government-enforced rights that everyone else does not?

    33. Re:Victory For Freedom by asdfghjklqwertyuiop · · Score: 1

      If there isn't another, and you think there's like-minded folks out there, find yourself some investors, and build your own ISP. It's actually somewhat trivial to do.

      No, it's actually illegal to do. If my friends and I start digging up the road to lay our lines down or start broadcasting sufficiently strong signals on useful frequencies we get arrested and fined. Only a few rich corporations have and can get such special rights.

    34. Re:Victory For Freedom by asdfghjklqwertyuiop · · Score: 1

      you don't get to change the rules now.

      Sure we do. "We" can elect legislators to change the rules however we see fit.

    35. Re:Victory For Freedom by jc42 · · Score: 1

      I hate to break it to the corporatist crowd, but the ISPs built those networks with our money, from government subsidies. They received those subsidies to enhance our national infrastructure. ...

      Well, I suspect that the corporatist crowd here is well aware of all this.

      What they're working on is a solution to a serious problem in the US any many other countries. Here, our First Amendment restricts the controls that any government agency can put on our public rants and ravings. But a private corporation has no such restrictions, and is free to impose any controls it likes on the content passing through its wires (even if those wires were paid for by a government subsidy).

      It used to be that, as the saying goes, the Free Press applies to anyone with the wealth to buy and run a printing press. The Internet put an end to that rule. So the question is: How can we put similar controls on the Internet? The government can't do it in the US, due to the First Amendment.

      Today's decision shows the way: By handing all public "speech" over to the comm monopolies (or duopolies) that run the Internet's infrastructure, the First Amendment is abrogated. Your ISP is a private corporation, and it can legally impose any controls it likes on the "content" that you attempt to transmit over your ISP's tubes. The First Amendment doesn't apply to private corporations.

      The corporatist crowd sees a major victory here. Thus, if you and your band want to sell your music, it used to be that you needed a contract with a distributor. Now you can distribute for close to free via the Internet. But in the near future, your ISP will fill the role that the music distributors used to have: To get your music distributed, you'll have to assign your copyright to your ISP, and pay them 90% of your income for the "right" to distribute over their wires.

      Plug in the appropriate words for whatever you're trying to do over the Internet, to see how it will affect you.

      (Lest you think that example is wrong, consider: Most US ISPs have have a "no servers" rule in their customer' contract, so you can't legally run your own web server do do the distribution. You can, of course, "host" your files on your ISP's web site. But if you read the fine print in your contract, you'll usually find that any file you store on your ISPs machines become the legal property of the ISP. So if you're distributing by your ISP's oh-so-helpful web-hosting setup, you are assigning your copyright to them. You can probably figure out the rest from here. It's only a matter of time that they collect a fee for every download of your money-making files.)

      --
      Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
    36. Re:Victory For Freedom by cyber-vandal · · Score: 1

      This is an interesting article. Two phrases that jump out at me:

      "while AT&T and Verizon are clearly the two biggest owners at the core (they dwarf Qwest, the other remaining baby bell), they don’t own anywhere near enough for us to be worried about a monopoly."

      and

      "it is pretty interesting to see the extent to which the telecommunications market has consolidated over the last decade."

      What, in a completely free-market system, would stop AT&T and Verizon merging, buying Qwest and then running the rest of the companies out of business?

    37. Re:Victory For Freedom by Dredd13 · · Score: 1

      That comes back to my other statement which is that if your local ordinance is using Franchise Agreements to enforce a monopoly by saying only they can bring out wire on poles or underground, to vote the bastards out.

    38. Re:Victory For Freedom by fishexe · · Score: 1

      I hate to break it to the entitlement-crowd, but those corporations built those networks with their own money, and own it outright, and as such, they get to be the supreme authority on what data traverses those networks, who pays how much to connect to any part of that network (as an end-user, a peer, or as a content-provider).

      This would be a great argument, if the bolded part were actually true.

      If you want to say "The government gives the network providers all sorts of tax-breaks and subsidies, so we get to have a say in how it's run", you fail, because your lawmakers didn't tie those sorts of conditions into those subsidies and tax-breaks, and you don't get to play Darth Vader and "alter the deal, pray I don't alter it any further" down the road.

      We don't even have to get that far. Forget even playing Darth Vader, once you admit the corporations built those networks with subsidies you've already destroyed your original premise that they'd built them "with their own money".

      The problem isn't that "ISPs are filtering/packet-shaping/blocking traffic", it's that your local governments have been propping up a monopoly.

      If that's really the problem, then how come my area, which has robust competition among many ISPs, also has traffic-blocking by the ISPs?

      --
      "I don't care about the Constitution!" --Bill O'Reilly, November 17, 2009
    39. Re:Victory For Freedom by fishexe · · Score: 1

      If you want to say "The government gives the network providers all sorts of tax-breaks and subsidies, so we get to have a say in how it's run", you fail, because your lawmakers didn't tie those sorts of conditions into those subsidies and tax-breaks, and you don't get to play Darth Vader and "alter the deal, pray I don't alter it any further" down the road.

      As a Star Wars fan and a citizen of the land of the free, I get to play Darth Vader whenever the fuck I want.

      --
      "I don't care about the Constitution!" --Bill O'Reilly, November 17, 2009
    40. Re:Victory For Freedom by Dredd13 · · Score: 1

      Once the gov't gave them the money without any strings attached it became theirs to do with as they will. If you don't the like stupid shit your congressmen are doing, take it up with them. :-P

      As for competition and traffic-blocking : maybe it's because it's a really viable business model. Don't like it, and your market is open to competition? Start up and compete against them, and may the best business model win. If customers REALLY care, they'll flock to your unblocked ISP and you'll be printing money.

  50. Pardon me? by goffster · · Score: 1

    As much as I like Obama, his pledge is to protect the internet for the highest bidder, not for schmoes like me.
    He is financed by the likes of ATT, TWC, etc..

    But....
    All big politicos have to be in someone's pocket.

  51. counterpoints by doug141 · · Score: 1

    The money raised from selling and reselling the spectrum to "megacorps" subsidizes the electorate's appetite for underfunded entitlements. The microwave oven spectrum is given to microwave ovens for reasons of physics. I like my microwave... my radios will just have to work around it, which they seem to do just fine for me.

    1. Re:counterpoints by subreality · · Score: 1

      In my opinion, the amount of money that was raised was a pittance compared to the true value of the spectrum.

      I don't mind at all that microwave ovens have some spectrum, and I'm glad that it's a nice narrow band. I just wish that there was more spectrum that wasn't such a noisy mess. Perhaps your radios work fine, but microwave interference is a very common problem.

      What I want is a nice wide band in some valuable spectrum - high enough frequency for high bit rates, low enough to get through moderate obstacles - that isn't trampled to death. I want it to be a band wide enough that we can have gizmos galore without them constantly contending for spectrum - as it is I just barely have enough to keep my AP from conflicting with my neighbors'. With a band ten times wider, it'd be a non-issue.

    2. Re:counterpoints by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I want a pony.

    3. Re:counterpoints by subreality · · Score: 1

      Open spectrum would be a free pony for everyone.

  52. Whiny geeks. FIX IT! by dazedNconfuzed · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Is this "news for nerds" or "news for lusers"?

    There is a tech solution. Invent it. Build it. Patent/open-source it. Sell it. Get it out there.

    But DON'T just sit there whining that ulterior-motive politicians and bureaucrats won't do things your way.

    One solution:
    Build a cheap, open, legal, spread-spectrum, compact, no-setup, easy network relay box. Set broadcast power within legal no-license limits. Make a gazillion of them, plug 'em in wherever you can. Make a giant ad-hoc network. You know what I'm getting at.

    Heck, this should already be in place between the innumerable cellphones & wireless routers out there. Get the ad-hoc network big enough, and the individual load should be minimal and the total disruptions minimal. TCP/IP is intended to circumvent network failures, so long as there is a path. Make a path.

    And stop expecting powermongers to give you freedom.

    --
    Can we get a "-1 Wrong" moderation option?
    1. Re:Whiny geeks. FIX IT! by MichaelKristopeit307 · · Score: 0
      thanks for your absolutely correct assessment of the ignorant hypocrites populating this internet web site chat room message board.

      slashdot = stagnated.

    2. Re:Whiny geeks. FIX IT! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think "politicians won't do things my way" is one of those things that deserves, needs, has to be complained about, for its own sake. Representing the will of the people is their job. They're not noble and powerful knight-lords, empowered to change the course of a nation as their conscience decides.

    3. Re:Whiny geeks. FIX IT! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      agora, anarchy, action!

    4. Re:Whiny geeks. FIX IT! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is this "news for nerds" or "news for lusers"?

      There is a tech solution. Invent it. Build it. Patent/open-source it. Sell it. Get it out there.

      But DON'T just sit there whining that ulterior-motive politicians and bureaucrats won't do things your way.

      One solution:
      Build a cheap, open, legal, spread-spectrum, compact, no-setup, easy network relay box. Set broadcast power within legal no-license limits. Make a gazillion of them, plug 'em in wherever you can. Make a giant ad-hoc network. You know what I'm getting at.

      Heck, this should already be in place between the innumerable cellphones & wireless routers out there. Get the ad-hoc network big enough, and the individual load should be minimal and the total disruptions minimal. TCP/IP is intended to circumvent network failures, so long as there is a path. Make a path.

      And stop expecting powermongers to give you freedom.

      I TOTALLY agree !!

          We should be building this network NOW !! .... before they lock us out of the internet !

          Surely there must be some inexpensive WiMax boxes available - or our demand will create a market for them ....
      We'd only need one every 10 or 20 miles ... although more would be better.

    5. Re:Whiny geeks. FIX IT! by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Shouldn't the "cheap, open, legal, spread-spectrum, compact, no-setup, easy network relay box" come with a free pony? I don't think that would make it significantly more difficult to accomplish.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    6. Re:Whiny geeks. FIX IT! by locallyunscene · · Score: 1

      Is this "news for nerds" or "news for lusers"?

      There is a tech solution. Invent it. Build it. Patent/open-source it. Sell it. Get it out there.

      But DON'T just sit there whining that ulterior-motive politicians and bureaucrats won't do things your way.

      One solution: Build a cheap, open, legal, spread-spectrum, compact, no-setup, easy network relay box. Set broadcast power within legal no-license limits. Make a gazillion of them, plug 'em in wherever you can. Make a giant ad-hoc network. You know what I'm getting at.

      Heck, this should already be in place between the innumerable cellphones & wireless routers out there. Get the ad-hoc network big enough, and the individual load should be minimal and the total disruptions minimal. TCP/IP is intended to circumvent network failures, so long as there is a path. Make a path.

      And stop expecting powermongers to give you freedom.

      That's a fake solution. We have and awesome network that is mostly open, reliable, and fast. I am not sorry for "whining" about wanting to keep it that way.

      Even if such a device were possible, there's no way you're going to be able to cross oceans with it short of launching your own satellites. I doubt you'd be able to penetrate very far in into the country either. There's a lot more land than people in most places and gaps will give you islands of people that can talk to each other but not the outside.Simply, you're not going to ever beat wires for long distance travel.

      You're not going to be able to build a legal cellular tower in your yard, and certainly not a cheap one. If you want range like the cellular networks you're going to have to pay big bucks in terms of power and metal.

      All this for what? A dubiously legal second rate network that will probably be taken over or broken by the regulatory capture cellular companies currently enjoy? No the solution is not to create a new network, it's to make the ones we have better.

    7. Re:Whiny geeks. FIX IT! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, I'm amazed every time I read somebody's simple plan for creating an ad-hoc global network, like there's a bored hacker out there that could crank this thing out in a weekend but just hasn't thought of it yet.

      "Dude, you read Ender's Game right? Just do what they did to make ansibles."

    8. Re:Whiny geeks. FIX IT! by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      There is a tech solution.

      Uh, no, there isn't.

      Mistaking a social problem for a technical problem and thus trying to fix it by technical means is a guaranteed path to failure.

      One solution:
      Build a cheap, open, legal, spread-spectrum, compact, no-setup, easy network relay box. Set broadcast power within legal no-license limits.

      And if those pointing to the problem of regulators serving the interest of large entrenched players are correct, the expected result of that is that the conditions which make the device you've proposed "legal" will be changed so that it is not.

      Which is why technical solutions to social problems don't work.

    9. Re:Whiny geeks. FIX IT! by spiffmastercow · · Score: 1

      But why should we have to make a hack to circumvent the system that's supposed to be "by the people, for the people"?

    10. Re:Whiny geeks. FIX IT! by mswhippingboy · · Score: 2

      That was my first thought as well, but as we've seen time and time again, all the gov't has to do is pass a law that "any" form of digital communications (even a tin-can and string network) falls under the same set of rulings and the effort would be for naught.

      A perfect example of this is Peer-to-peer. P2P was supposed to stop anyone from controlling what data user pass between them since there was no central server, but we see that the gov't put the brakes on that - not though technology, but through laws.

      --
      Sometimes the light at the end of the tunnel is the headlight of an oncoming train.
    11. Re:Whiny geeks. FIX IT! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Funkfeuer

    12. Re:Whiny geeks. FIX IT! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are all silly. Convenience is blinding. Why mirror the silly architecture of the past when it is easier than ever to carry your data around? Just remember the safe sex rules apply to data in the Information Age. Having to deal with your network peers face to face gives new meaning to design enforced morality/accountability.

    13. Re:Whiny geeks. FIX IT! by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 2

      You do realize that a spectrum has a bandwidth that is limited by physics? That the spectrum available to private citizens is puny? And that just dropping more wireless receivers/broadcasters into an area with a saturated spectrum does not increase bandwidth?

      There's a reason wireless isn't being used to funnel large traffic around.

      --
      Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
    14. Re:Whiny geeks. FIX IT! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Build a cheap, open, legal, spread-spectrum, compact, no-setup, easy network relay box.
      Set broadcast power within legal no-license limits.

      Easy.

      Make a gazillion of them

      Not so easy.

      plug 'em in wherever you can.

      Yeah, right.
      Lets plug in a whole bunch of boxes everywhere with blinking lights on them, what could go wrong?
      Or would you rather pay the thousands per month to put them on a tower?

      You know what I'm getting at.

      No, what are you getting at?
      Unless you're routing all that traffic internally (basically making a really big intRAnet) then someone has to foot the bill for bandwidth. ... and deal with the lawyers when someone downloads CP or the wrong MP3.

      Or, to use the meme:

      1) Design magic box
      2) Build magic box
      3) ???
      4) Profit

    15. Re:Whiny geeks. FIX IT! by inthealpine · · Score: 1

      You don't think the government will step in and regulate that for the 'good of the people'? As soon as you implement your plan then it's your turn to be regulated into oblivion.

      --
      "In God We Trust, All Others Pay Cash"
    16. Re:Whiny geeks. FIX IT! by yuhong · · Score: 1

      Yea, Google is building it's own fiber network, for example.

    17. Re:Whiny geeks. FIX IT! by badkarmadayaccount · · Score: 1

      Ever thought of tech required?

      --
      I know tobacco is bad for you, so I smoke weed with crack.
  53. netsukuku by malilo · · Score: 1

    from a relative n00b - can netsukuku or something similar get us out of this?

    http://www.netsukuku.org/?pag=about

    --
    "sometimes he felt that his whole life was a dream, and he wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it."
  54. You are an idiot and a tool by SuperKendall · · Score: 0

    yesterday, I was advocating Net Neutrality in a discussion here on Slashdot, and I continue to advocate for it. What the FCC is showing here, however, is not what I and other like-minded folks are advocating.

    And I have strongly advocated against Net Neutrality, because I told everyone here time and time again that any regulation would be controlled by corporate lobbying.

    I was the one who realized just what regulation would be written in the real world; you are a tool of those who wanted to use the regulation.

    In short what on earth made you think the regulation you and others dreamed of was ever possible to have the government produce?

    I take little solace in being right because I also have to live in the world you have crafted.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    1. Re:You are an idiot and a tool by Pojut · · Score: 0

      And I have strongly advocated against Net Neutrality, because I told everyone here time and time again that any regulation would be controlled by corporate lobbying.

      I was the one who realized just what regulation would be written in the real world; you are a tool of those who wanted to use the regulation.

      I wanted it to be done so long as it was done right. Never once did I advocate what the FCC is planning.

      In short what on earth made you think the regulation you and others dreamed of was ever possible to have the government produce?

      I never said it was, I said it's what I would support.

      I take little solace in being right because I also have to live in the world you have crafted.

      That's funny, I don't recall ever being in a position where I had power.

    2. Re:You are an idiot and a tool by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you're so against regulation you should love this. All it does is create toothless fluff and calls it regulation. But don't that let you stop your anti regulation "i was right" diatribe calling fellow slashdotters tools. Projection at it's finest.

    3. Re:You are an idiot and a tool by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

      I wanted it to be done so long as it was done right. Never once did I advocate what the FCC is planning.

      If you advocated any control by the FCC at all, this is in fact what you were advocating - to let them decide. You cannot paint your failure in terms of not understanding what they would write just as you cannot claim speeding is OK if you never saw a sign with the limit.

      That's funny, I don't recall ever being in a position where I had power

      You, no. But in aggregate many people like you were calling for the FCC to regulate the internet. You each had fanciful ideas about what that meant, but it all boiled down to a large mass of people saying the FCC should regulate the internet as they saw fit. You were the ones that gave them the power to act.

      Let this be a lesson on handing over power to a central authority. Not that you will learn anything as you will fall under the same delusion each and every time you hand over the whip.

      --
      "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    4. Re:You are an idiot and a tool by beakerMeep · · Score: 1

      Your sir are rude, and your circular logic is flawed. You don't want regulation and the FCC decided to let the market decide -- and you call that a failure, blaming people who are pro regulation? Seriously, what's wrong with you?

      --
      meep
    5. Re:You are an idiot and a tool by Pojut · · Score: 0

      If you advocated any control by the FCC at all, this is in fact what you were advocating - to let them decide. You cannot paint your failure in terms of not understanding what they would write just as you cannot claim speeding is OK if you never saw a sign with the limit.

      I never advocated control by the FCC, I advocating the ISPs not having it.

      My ideal way to implement this would be legislation that would cut-off ISPs and the FCC from discriminating or judging based on the origin or destination of a packet. Unrealistic, I know, but there it is nontheless.

      You, no. But in aggregate many people like you were calling for the FCC to regulate the internet. You each had fanciful ideas about what that meant, but it all boiled down to a large mass of people saying the FCC should regulate the internet as they saw fit. You were the ones that gave them the power to act.

      Let me get this straight...you say "oh no, not you", but then turn around say "but wait, yes you"? Which one is it? Are you going to make the generalization or not?

      Let this be a lesson on handing over power to a central authority. Not that you will learn anything as you will fall under the same delusion each and every time you hand over the whip.

      I find it interesting you think you know my opinions on everything. Why don't you tell me more about how I think, since it's obvious you know me so well.

    6. Re:You are an idiot and a tool by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

      I never advocated control by the FCC, I advocating the ISPs not having it.

      That is so absurd I will let it stand alone as a monument.

      If the ISP's have power to choose taken away, someone else has it.

      --
      "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    7. Re:You are an idiot and a tool by Pojut · · Score: 1

      Once again, you not only cherry pick what to respond to, but you attack me rather than what was said.

      Yup. You're a shining example to us all.

  55. Stop spreading FUD by SuperKendall · · Score: 2

    When I explained the ramifications for their Netflix usage, his response was to immediately support it.

    Yes, people will support something when you lie about what it does.

    Given the regulation we have now it's plain you were lying to him. So will you now go and try and turn him against the regulation to correct your wrongs?

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    1. Re:Stop spreading FUD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why is he lying? You're spreading more FUD than anyone else here -- and with no specifics, just lots of angry blame. His post was about convincing his relatives to support net neutrality, not necessarily this particular version of it. Your whole post amounts to "you're wrong! LOLOLOLZ!"
       
      Who mods this shit up?

    2. Re:Stop spreading FUD by spitzak · · Score: 1

      "You Lie!"

      Well, that was certainly an informed rebuttal! Really convincing. Not.

    3. Re:Stop spreading FUD by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

      His post was about convincing his relatives to support net neutrality

      At the core he was asking to support regulation of the internet.

      He was lying because he claimed it would do one thing without ever researching what it actually would do (hint: we have never been able to read the proposed regulation).

      If I am angry it's only because this was all so obvious.

      --
      "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    4. Re:Stop spreading FUD by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

      As was your lucid rebuttal of my point that he sold them a bill of goods without knowing what he was selling. When you don't know what a regulation is but then talk someone into supporting it based on assumptions and not facts, that is lying - he misled them into thinking the regulation would do something specifically it does not do.

      --
      "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  56. Re:Why would the Chair sellout? by sorak · · Score: 1

    I'm pretty sure commodore64_love is not a partisan democrat. I have nothing against the guy, but we've argued enough issues so that I would be shocked if he had voted for Obama.

  57. Told you so by SuperKendall · · Score: 0

    In any story on Net Neutrality, I have raised the point that any regulation in the end will be dictated by lobbying. Oh how many Slashot readers said that I was wrong, that it would cure all ills, imagined or real.

    And so here we are, in a world where I sadly am proven correct. What will you do now? Will you call and urge they drop this? Or will you just accept this and move on as if nothing has happened, while over time the regulation goes more and more against the principles you SAID you were supporting?

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  58. NEWS for nerds? No one has seen the order! by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

    TFS is simply a direct quote from TFA, which is hysterical opinion which doesn't include any substantive facts. It would be nice if there were actually some news in the "News for Nerds".

    And what's worse, is no one posting these opinions about how good or bad the order that will be voted on is knows what is in the order. While both supporters and opponents of net neutrality are saying that this order is a victory for the other side, with fairly hyperbolic descriptions on both sides, its worth noting the more the more substantive and to-the-point issue raised here -- both as regards the order and the commentary on it from both sides -- the order that will be voted on has neither been published officially nor leaked, all the commentary is based on speculation on earlier drafts.

    So everyone crying "the sky is falling" is doing so without having even looked up.

  59. Ed Whitacre called it in 2005 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I wonder how close Ed Whitacre will be to laughing his ass off by the end of tomorrow. Granted, he's not in charge at the non-existent SBC anymore, but it's almost like the FCC gave a belated Christmas present to him and his cronies.

  60. Blocked by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    This comment blocked by ATT*Comcast's NetMonitor. Category: dissent against corporate overlords.

  61. Par for the course. by Beelzebud · · Score: 2, Funny

    Well pro-corporate right wingers. You've won again. Since Obama is turning out to be a pretty solid Republican president, do you think you can now lay off that whole Kenyan Socialist bullshit, please?

    1. Re:Par for the course. by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      Obama is not turning out to be a "pretty solid Republican president". He is turning out to be a solidly Democratic President, loudly proclaiming his fealty to the "little guy", while strongly expanding government regulations to favor the wealthy. Why do you think the highest per capita income counties and states are the most consistently Deomcratic?

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    2. Re:Par for the course. by careysub · · Score: 1

      Well pro-corporate right wingers. You've won again. Since Obama is turning out to be a pretty solid Republican president, do you think you can now lay off that whole Kenyan Socialist bullshit, please?

      Naw. They've learned that the harder they pound him, the farther he will bend over to accommodate.

      --
      Starships were meant to fly, Hands up and touch the sky - Nicky Minaj
    3. Re:Par for the course. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well pro-corporate right wingers. You've won again. Since Obama is turning out to be a pretty solid Republican president, do you think you can now lay off that whole Kenyan Socialist bullshit, please?

      The FCC is run by one of Obama's law school buddies. Go look him up. This is an Obama agenda item, not some GOP power grab.

    4. Re:Par for the course. by Maltheus · · Score: 1

      Given that we right wingers had to put up with that big government liberal Bush, who outspent every previous president combined, I'd say I'm loving the payback. In fact, I'm gonna bring up the Obama socialist/ultra lib angle even more now so that real liberals will get a taste of what we've been going through when we we're told that unregulated free market capitalism (the polar opposite of what we had during the Bush administration) has destroyed the economy.

      The truth is, we have a blend of fascism and socialism in this country that confuses both side. Libs hate big corporations, but they only get that big because of regulation, not in spite of it. So love them both or hate them both, it's senseless to side with one over the other.

  62. figures. by Carebears · · Score: 2

    Land of the free*. *Freedom sold separately.

  63. Re:Victory For Free DOOM by citylivin · · Score: 2

    If your local municipality has locked out competition via a "Franchise Agreement", well, now is an excellent time to vote those bastards out of office, or start getting involved in local politics.

    Thats funny, i thought that you americans did just that by electing someone who was FOR net neutrality. It didn't end up mattering who got voted in though, because as you are no doubt aware money = power, and it seems a "right wing liberal" is just a corrupt as a "right wing conservative".

    "Voting against "net neutrality" is voting for the rights of property holders to do what they want with the property they have paid good money for."

    FUCK. PROPERTY. HOLDERS. I am so tired of the ballad of the oppressed capitalist. You are seriously deluded if you think you will ever be wealthy enough to be in control, if that is what you are betting on. This is about censorship and control, only you, the plutocrat apologist, has decided that FOR PROFIT corporations are more trustworthy than the government that you ELECT. In america it doesn't seem to matter, as you have all broken the system so much that politicans are just paid shills for corporations, but dont you dare use your broken ass "democratic" system to discredit good ideas such as net neutrality.

    Do corporations get to dictate who you call on the telephone?
    Does the government get to decide on what you can use your electrical power?
    Do they get to decide which plants you can water?
    Does the post office get to refuse your mail to certain individuals? Or does it not matter who you send a letter to, as long as you pay equally.

    Internet is a utility, and should be protected as such. You people need to nationalize the internet. Corporations are unaccountable and corrupt, by nature as they are trying to create profit first and foremost. Utilities should NOT have profit as the bottom line goal! Its amazing in 2010, with all the evidence of life behind you, that this still must be explained.

    --
    As a potential lottery winner, I totally support tax cuts for the wealthy
  64. Re:Victory For Free DOOM by Dredd13 · · Score: 1

    Does the government get to decide on what you can use your electrical power?

    In many parts of the country, during peak usage periods, the answer is "yes", unfortunately.

    Do they get to decide which plants you can water?

    In many parts of the country, specifically the western portion of the US, the answer is most definitely "yes", again, unfortunately.

    You people need to nationalize the internet.

    Yeah, because the government does such a great job of innovation. They're definitely who we should have running the show.

    Or, maybe, not.

  65. Same Difference by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

    Yeah and the same fools were braying about a "government takeover" of health care. It was actually a health care takeover of government.

    In the end it's a central authority with too much power over you. Who cares if it's pure "government" or government proxying a small subset of companies? The end result is the same, it's still bad.

    And that is also true, as we can see plainly now, of the FCC and regulating the internet. But if you'd care to make the same mistake twice by all means go ahead.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    1. Re:Same Difference by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But if you'd care to make the same mistake twice by all means go ahead.

      He wouldn't - that was the point of the comment, genius.

    2. Re:Same Difference by dgatwood · · Score: 2

      In the end it's a central authority with too much power over you. Who cares if it's pure "government" or government proxying a small subset of companies? The end result is the same, it's still bad.

      This is why I've been saying for years that the only real solution to our nation's Internet service problems is for the government to create a nonprofit organization that manages the last-mile infrastructure and leases access to corporations that compete for the right to package and sell the services. That organization must be forbidden by charter from interfering in the operation of those ISPs in any way. Only by the government taking direct action to promote competition can we have anything approaching a consumer-friendly market for Internet service. With such a system, even if all the ISPs in your area suck, you could get a loan for twenty grand and set up your own ISP in your community. That's a far cry from today's world in which a few incumbent, for-profit monopolies hold all the rights to lease their lines (even though those lines were mostly paid for by the government).

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    3. Re:Same Difference by protektor · · Score: 1

      This was tried in several states to make the telcos and cable companies open up their last mile lines at reasonable market costs. It didn't work at all. Either they paid off the state legislators to make it pointless and/or they gave special deals to their own ISPs that no one else could get. It was a complete joke. Not to mention how much telcos were "donating" to some of the legislators election funds. Cable companies just waive their exclusive contracts under the nose of the local city governments and said, no we don't have to do that and you can't make us. If you try we will just shut down cable and tell everyone it is your fault. Not to mention how much cable companies were "donating" to some of the local city leaders election funds. So that never happened either. I saw both first hand in trying to deal with cable companies and telcos. The pay-offs in the form of campaign donations made it impossible for the average person to even talk to the government leaders and get them to understand what was going on. I heard dozens of times, oh they wouldn't do that, or they paid for all that stuff so why should they have to share it. The government leaders didn't want to hear about the monopolies that these companies had been operating under for many decades or more.

      You want to know how the telcos and cable companies screwed ISP. Just look around and count how many locally owned ISPs even exist anymore. It isn't due to lack of technical ability, many locally owned ISPs used to do things the cable and telco companies said was impossible technically. It is due to predatory practices by the telcos and cable companies that locally owned ISPs are gone. They have killed a once vibrant and competitive market.

      The telcos and cable companies will do the exact same thing to Internet websites and Internet technologies if someone doesn't stop them. They have a proven track record of destroying anyone who tries to complete with them by using unfair advantages. If they were serious about keeping the Internet free they would do what they gave lip service to years ago. They would make cable companies and telco completely spin off their Internet divisions, and rather than keep them at arms length, which is how it used to be. They would make it so they can't own any Internet companies, or stocks in any Internet company. These companies would have to compete just the same as anyone else out there. The telcos and cable companies have for years used their coffers from one side to prop up the Internet side and slash prices to run everyone else out of business and then raise rates later. Locally pipes have gotten smaller and more expensive. That isn't a competitive market that is leveraging a monopoly to dominate the market down to a few big players, and they have done it for years.

      The cable companies and telcos have had monopolies for 40-100 years. So anyone trying to compete with them is facing a very serious uphill battle. Their coffers are huge, and their lobbyists are very entrenched with having the ears of politicians.

      Telcos and Cable companies are not the friends of the public, and will screw the public over the first chance they think they can get away with it.

    4. Re:Same Difference by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      This was tried in several states to make the telcos and cable companies open up their last mile lines at reasonable market costs. It didn't work at all. Either they paid off the state legislators to make it pointless and/or they gave special deals to their own ISPs that no one else could get.

      On the contrary. What I propose has never been tried except at the local level, and to the best of my knowledge, it has worked well everywhere it was tried. A government-owned network is not the same thing a a corporate-owned network that the government requires the corporation to share, for several reasons.

      First, they're for-profit companies that provide Internet service themselves, so they naturally see their cost for maintaining the lines as being nearly as much as they charge for service, making it impossible for anyone to price their service competitively. A fundamental principle of what I described is that the owner of the lines cannot provide service directly to consumers under any circumstances. As soon as you allow that, any such system is doomed.

      Second, DSL is hopeless because distance limitations limit how far you can get decent data rates, and most telcos haven't bothered up grade their gear past about 6 Mbps anyway. Because the telcos pay to build out fiber networks themselves, forcing them to share doesn't make sense, so they rightfully refuse. Therefore, you get two tiers of service: the third parties who can only use classical DSL and the ILECs who can run fiber to the node or fiber to the curb.

      Third, the ILECs, because they are competing with the CLECs, have no incentive to actually repair their lines and keep things maintained. If they screw up service badly enough, eventually the consumer might dump the CLEC and switch to their service. Thus, it is in their best interest to sabotage the CLECs service, or at best do nothing to ensure that it is reliable.

      Requiring a company to provide service to its competitors fundamentally cannot work well. It is contrary to their best interests in pretty much every way. That said, the laws did work, just not well. I'm currently running my home servers off an CLEC that is only allowed to provide service because of these laws. The problem is not that forcing them to open up the lines paid for by our tax dollars is fundamentally unworkable so much as that our government then failed to follow through by continuing to build out the infrastructure with newer technologies, and thus the competition quickly became second class citizens. All of this is a problem solely because the government did not retain ownership of the infrastructure and did not continue to improve that infrastructure. And that is the fundamental difference between what I proposed and what you think I proposed. :-)

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    5. Re:Same Difference by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      Err... bothered to upgrade their gear. I'm not sure how I managed to edit a space into the middle of a word like that....

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

  66. Why would I love functionless code by SuperKendall · · Score: 2

    If you're so against regulation you should love this. All it does is create toothless fluff and calls it regulation.

    The fluff is obviously a framework to say the FCC has power to regulate the internet.

    It appears to be fluff to you because you have not reached the hard, hard crunchy core yet. That comes later.

    As a programmer why would I love anything that has no purpose? I see this for what it is, a trojan - if only some others of you were intelligent enough to do so.

    It is also madness to claim that someone who speaks out against regulation by a specific body would love any regulation by that body, no matter what it does. Even if it stated explicitly I would be paid a million dollars a year I would be against it, for the greater good.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    1. Re:Why would I love functionless code by Pojut · · Score: 1

      Even if it stated explicitly I would be paid a million dollars a year I would be against it, for the greater good.

      So you're trying to tell us that you would forgo a seven figure income for "the greater good"...yet in casual conversation (online, no less) you attempt to attack someone rather than their argument? ::eyeroll::

    2. Re:Why would I love functionless code by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

      So you're trying to tell us that you would forgo a seven figure income for "the greater good"...yet in casual conversation (online, no less) you attempt to attack someone rather than their argument?

      I just looked up the definition of Non sequitur, and amazingly found your post there!

      --
      "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    3. Re:Why would I love functionless code by Pojut · · Score: 1

      You claim you would give up an opportunity for vast amounts of money (and thus security for you and your loved ones) due to some deep-rooted need to serve humanity in a positive way...yet you insult a person rather than (or while) responding to their point. I mean, I guess you could try to argue that even heroes can be dickbags sometimes, but...

      I wouldn't say my statement is a non sequitur, I'd say you are.

  67. Woz's article by Eil · · Score: 2

    Woz wrote a beautiful article on net neutrality that was posted today.

  68. No more Federal Despots by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I am dumbfounded at the number of Slashdot readers that support this bill. Yes we need to establish net neutrality, yes we need to take SOME power from the ISP, but the giving the power to regulate and "police" the internet to the Federal Imperial Government would be more damaging than unplugging the entire thing. Wake up people, this is not nor was it ever a bill for net neutrality, its a another massive Federal power grab....

  69. Since Republicans were against any regulation... by SuperKendall · · Score: 0

    Well pro-corporate right wingers. You've won again.

    Republicans were against any regulation. So since it is in place, that leaves the only people obviously desiring the result as Democrats.

    Congratulations, you have "won". Or at least your hive-leaders have. Go back to making honey for them and do not concern yourself over the laws they pass.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  70. In other news... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    ... privately-owned toll roads that turn a profit are not illegal.

  71. Really? by thethibs · · Score: 2

    Government regulation never protects. Ever. It controls.

    Children generally won't understand the difference; adults are expected to.

    --
    I'm a Programmer. That's one level above Software Engineer and one level below Engineer.
    1. Re:Really? by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1

      Government regulation never protects. Ever. It controls.

      You got that exactly backwards. I've never heard of a large company actually being controlled by a regulation, but the barriers to entry erected by those same regulations do a great job of protecting those same companies' business.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    2. Re:Really? by GiveBenADollar · · Score: 1

      Then why does the bill of rights outline the rights of individuals? Oh yeah, it doesn't. I specifically outlines the powers and rights of the federal government. Sadly most individuals and the federal government have forgotten that the government works for us at our express consent. I think it's time to remind the politicians in Washington just what WE HIRED THEM to do.

  72. Who won? by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

    Well pro-corporate right wingers. You've won again.

    The pro-corporate right-wingers are calling this a coup d'état by the left, based on the same level of speculation without the actual order details on which the left is characterizing it as a sell-out to industry.

    Maybe, just maybe, before characterizing who won, we should find out what is actually ordered?

  73. universal: by uncanny · · Score: 1

    The rule is so riddled with loopholes that it's become clear that this ________ chairman crafted it with the sole purpose of winning the endorsement of lobbyists, and not defending the interests of the tens of millions of ______________

    Apply to just about anything they are doing anymore.

  74. Re:Since Republicans were against any regulation.. by Beelzebud · · Score: 1

    This plan was written by the Republican chair of the FCC. The Republicans are fine with regulation as long as it's to the benefit of the paymasters, which this is...

  75. common carrier rules not new by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    To all of you saying that the telecoms paid for installing their nets and therefore should be able to charge customers differentially based on what they want to do, we experienced this before. In the 1800's, railroads paid for installing tracks around the country, then proceeded to play nasty games and were forced to be neutral by congress. This is not new. See here: http://www.bengarvey.com/2010/08/net-neutrality-and-the-railroad-business/

  76. I hold the switch in my hand by skyggen · · Score: 1

    I have a key that opens a door that contains a button that stops the business I work for. I'm the only one with that key. Many of us have that key and have used it to get to that button. Maybe all we need to do is push the button.

  77. Gambling in Casablanca by ThatsNotPudding · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'm still glad he won, given the screamingly terrifying alternative, but we all knew Obama was a corporate camp-follower when as a Senator, he voted to give AT&T a free pass for gleefully breaking wiretapping laws when asked by the NSA (who seemingly answers to no one).

    1. Re:Gambling in Casablanca by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bless you sir or ma'am! I thought I was the only one who noticed Obama's telecom immunity vote as a senator! No one who saw that happen should be surprised that Obama is clueless about the constitution.

  78. Depends on the regulation by weston · · Score: 1

    Then when new regulations are passed that give more power to the corporations, you blame the people who told you that was going to happen if you kept pushing for more regulations.

    Naw, I blame the people who talk about about "regulation" vaguely and as if it's some monolithic thing, of course. Always easier rhetorically, particularly when you're preaching to a choir of fellow conservatives who've repeated the "regulation bad" mantra for so long it's become their own personal lobotomy and they are no longer even *capable* of actually thinking about policy specifics.

    So here's the question: can you describe the mechanics of how a regulation that, say, prohibited tolls or discrimination based on packet source/destination would create barriers that favor existing big companies?

    1. Re:Depends on the regulation by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      Can you describe when such a regulation has been proposed by anyone in a position to implement it? Proponents of Net Neutrality keep asking me to explain why I oppose this mythical regulation. I don't oppose that mythical regulation. I oppose the one that is 25 pages long that politicians and bureaucrats tell me will do that.
      Net Neutrality boosters keep saying that net neutrality is prohibiting ISPs from discriminating between packets based on destination or source. If the regulation were to say "You may not distinguish between packets based on destination or source.", I could support it. But none of the proposed regulations have ever been that short.
      People keep arguing that that is what they are for and I keep telling them, that's not what you are going to get.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
  79. Taxation without Representation by Lilith's+Heart-shape · · Score: 1

    How many more abuses of this nature will it take before people realize that the government isn't by and for the people any longer, but by and for corporations? Individuals aren't represented in Congress any longer; corporations are. However, individuals are still obligated to pay taxes. How long will it be before the average person again rallies around "No taxation without representation"?

    1. Re:Taxation without Representation by Presto+Vivace · · Score: 1

      How long will it be before the average person again rallies around "No taxation without representation"? Judging by DC's experience, quite a while.

  80. Information is the best perspective by Mab_Mass · · Score: 2

    Funny enough, if you look at the bottom of another heavily slanted Fox article, you can find some actual information. The details seem much better than hinted at in the Huffington Post.

    The rules would require broadband providers to let subscribers access all legal online content, applications and services over their wired networks -- including online calling services, Internet video and other Web applications that compete with their core businesses.

    But the plan would give broadband providers flexibility to manage data on their systems to deal with problems such as network congestion and unwanted traffic like spam as long as they publicly disclose their network management practices.

    Senior FCC officials stressed that unreasonable network discrimination would be prohibited.

    They also noted that this category would most likely include services that favor traffic from the broadband providers themselves or traffic from business partners that can pay for priority... The proposal would ... leave the door open for broadband providers to experiment with routing traffic from specialized services such as smart grids and home security systems over dedicated networks as long as these services are separate from the public Internet.

    Public interest groups fear that exception could lead to a two-tiered Internet with a fast lane for companies that can pay for priority and a slow lane for everyone else.

    The plan would prohibit wireless carriers from blocking access to any websites or competing applications such as Internet calling services on mobile devices. It would require them to disclose their network management practices too.

    But wireless companies would get more flexibility to manage data traffic as wireless systems have more bandwidth constraints than wired networks.

    1. Re:Information is the best perspective by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      Funny enough, if you look at the bottom of another heavily slanted Fox article [foxnews.com], you can find some actual information.

      Since the actual order being voted on hasn't been published or leaked, the "actual information" is the same mix of reading the older drafts and guessing what changes have been made based on imprecise comments from FCC officials, including most especially the Dec. 1 speech by the FCC chair, that underlies the hyperventilation everywhere.

      No one commenting on this has seen the actual rules that they are commenting on.

    2. Re:Information is the best perspective by Mab_Mass · · Score: 1

      Ugh. Really?

      Never mind, then. I thought for once the news sources provided me some real information instead of trumped up speculation.

      Since I don't have any facts on which to form an opinion, I guess I should just go back to picking a media outlet and letting them dictate all of my opinions for me. What could possibly go wrong?

    3. Re:Information is the best perspective by GiveBenADollar · · Score: 1

      From that writeup this version of net neutrality looks very reasonable, although without seeing the source text there is no way of knowing what loopholes exist. My question is where does the government regulation of content come into play? Will the government stifle freedom of the press/freedom of speech on the internet? Wikileaks is a prime example, there are a lot of politicians on both sides of the isle that would like to see the site nuked from orbit permanently, but it is also a prime example of freedom of the press.

  81. Anonymous Coward by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    They couldn't give us ala carte TV but here comes your ala carte Internet. Oh, you want to go to myface.com or yourplace.com? Great, that traffic is now in a different package, which only costs you an extra 6.99 a month, for the first gigabyte...

  82. No great surprise here... by ArtFart · · Score: 0

    Not a single one of the Commissioners has a technical background. In reality, not a single one of them would recognize a QoS label if it bit him or her on the ass. Their decision is no doubt based on whatever voices carried the loudest over the cacaphony, and whoever has the most money buys the biggest megaphone.

  83. Whose interests? by Caerdwyn · · Score: 1

    My interests are not protected by "net neutrality". My interests are not protected by the government gaining legal power to dictate what traffic can and cannot flow. My interests are not protected by establishing a framework in which governmental authority over content classification is established. My interests are not served by the government being able to force one provider to subsidize others, as I know who ends up ultimately footing the bill. My interests are not protected by having spam, malware, media piracy, and DDoS traffic shielded, by law, from being removed from my ISP's network.

    Establishing governmental power over communication doesn't increase freedom, folks. Who here thinks that "net neutrality compliance monitoring" frameworks won't be used for entirely legal (thanks to the law) warrantless searches, recording of individual usage patterns, and enforcement of least-common-denominator standards that forbid anyone from having more bandwidth and content than others? Who here thinks that this won't lead to nationalization of the infrastructure, thus giving the government the ability and power to ban content?

    Net neutrality has been wrapped in a noble flag, but when you look at the consequences and what it enables, it's a very bad deal which ultimately only serves Big Brother and people who don't like to pay for media and software. I, for one, am quite happy that we dodged this particular bullet... this time, anyway.

    --
    Everybody gets what the majority deserves.
  84. Re:Mail analogy by Zinho · · Score: 1

    The "mail man" decides which route the mail takes based on what you're willing to pay... you know, allowing people to pay premium rates for priority service, like some sites choosing to pay for better delivery than normal over your pipes.

    I thought I was making that choice when I signed up for a 5Mbps fiber-optic uplink. My 15Mbps downlink is the equivalent to setting up a large mailbox (I anticipate receiving a large number of packets, after all); I'm OK with the arrangement that I'm renting it from the delivery service. Netflix does the same for their packets, paying a negotiated amount for the volume of packets they send and receive.

    In this scenario my vision for Net Neutrality is that DHL, UPS, USPS, and FedEx don't get to charge each other for access to my address.

    Wow. I really like that analogy, stick with it =)

    --
    "Space Exploration is not endless circles in low earth orbit." -Buzz Aldrin
  85. Re:What a suprise to US, EU... by OldHawk777 · · Score: 1

    More FyckUS, FickEU, and RU and CN applaud the controlling effort of the "Corporate Communist World Order (CCWO). %~P

    --
    Unaccountable leaders are masters, and unrepresented people are slaves. How do US and EU fare?
  86. Will someone please provide a reasoned analysis??? by wiggles · · Score: 2

    I'm seeing both sides of this debate, corps and net neutrality activists, going all foamy at the mouth over this, and I'm not seeing any valid reasons one way or another. It seems to me that everyone is afraid of what could be in this, but nobody knows what *is* in it!

    From the WSJ:

    "The new FCC rules, for example, would prevent a broadband provider, such as Comcast Corp., AT&T, Inc. or Verizon Communications Inc., from hobbling access to an online video service, such as Netflix, that competes with its own video services."

    From the HuffPo:

    "Instead of a rule to protect Internet users' freedom to choose, the Commission has opened the door for broadband payola - letting phone and cable companies charge steep tolls to favor the content and services of a select group of corporate partners, relegating everyone else to the cyber-equivalent of a winding dirt road. "

    So which is it??

  87. Start here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm tired and foreign so don't expect a jewel of literature here, but

    1 - People are stupid (meaning that we all perform some epic fails occasionally), but most of us can do better than that
    2 - Some matters seem so obvious that you'd have to be stupid not to worry about them
    3 - Despite your best efforts some seem to be stuck on stupid mode,
    4 - You can at least laugh about it - at their expense, preferably
    5 ...
    6 - Profit!
    7 - WRONG!!!111!1!!1

    It often struck me that I tend to like people individually and despise them as a group. It got me wondering - and I'm still working at it but it sems that just being nice to others goes a long way. Patience takes you even further. So this is my recipe to effect change:
      Do not antagonize those who disagree with you - your true enemy is apathy.
      Do not expect to convert others to your cause.
      Speak passionately, but listen just as intently.
      Never give up!

    True strategy works over long periods of time, and often giving in to exasperation only sets back any goals you are trying to achieve. One must realize there are battles that cannot be won, at least in the immediate future - so you keep the communication lines open for next time, you "live to fight another day".

    Finally, look at yourself, and you past exploits, under these principles, and see if you can settle for a small victory at a time - or why you couldn't at THAT time. I could go on at length about this, but:
    a) My writing probably reads like a crank's
    b) Works better if you work it out for yourself.
    c) I've not got all answers

    Finally, I'm open sourcing this under creative commons 3.0 (I'm aware this post is under "Anonymous Coward")

    1. Re:Start here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Damn, I sound like sun tsu! I should have done that in verse, with a musical background.

  88. Re:Since Republicans were against any regulation.. by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

    This plan was written by the Republican chair of the FCC.

    Both the chair and the two other members of the FCC that have indicated that they support the version of the plan that will be voted on are Democrats; the two members of the FCC opposed are Republicans. Republicans in the House and Senate have threatened to attempt to exercise a legislative veto over any net neutrality related regulations and, failing that, to block all FCC funding if any net neutrality regulations are approved by the FCC.

    One of the Democrats on the FCC was opposed to the earlier drafts of the plan that were publicly circulated because they contained insufficient protections for consumers and too many concessions to service providers interests, but has switch positions on the final plan (though still characterizing it as not ideal.)

    While I -- like everyone else outside of the FCC commenting on the plan -- don't know what is in the current version that they are voting on, I am rather suspicious of a characterization of it as containing everything that pro-corporate, right-wing republicans want. That seems extraordinarily unlikely given the circumstantial evidence that is all we have available.

  89. Look again! by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

    Whoever is in charge of the FCC serves at the pleasure of the president. Please review the prior election results.

    You also make the same mistake of assuming the Republicans who set him there are the same ones as the ones coming into power. Many such Republicans were tossed out in primaries.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  90. This says it all about the 'change' by RandomStrategy · · Score: 1
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1FFVWEQnSM

    I'm not republican and by no means democrat, I don't even really identify with the tea party. Just laying that out on the table.

  91. Again! Again! by bjk002 · · Score: 1

    Keep posting!!! Maybe one day it will sink in. We can only hope...

    --
    Opinion:=TMyOpinion.Create(Me);
  92. Re:Victory For Free DOOM by LanMan04 · · Score: 1

    Yeah, because the government does such a great job of innovation.

    *cough* ARPANET *cough*

    --
    With the first link, the chain is forged.
  93. Re: We have to destroy the Net in order to save it by enormouspenis · · Score: 0

    I want to know, no, I DEMAND to know when the FCC is going to do something about the /. modding system? Some great comments are buried in the links and higher modded comments sit out in the open like fat corporate advertising. All information must be the same. We need the government to free /.. Mod Neutrality Now!!!!

    --
    "I didn't spend six years in Evil Medical School to be called 'Mr.Evil,' thank you very much!"
  94. Don't vote by Pro923 · · Score: 1

    I figured out about 20 years ago that the president of the US is no more than a figurehead and is completely powerless to do anything. While we, the idiots, are fighting over whether it's the democrats or republicans that are the good or the evil, the country is being run at a completely different level - much lower level than the figurehead that we swap out every four years. The corruption remains intact, and is firmly rooted. The best thing you can do is not vote - show that you're smarter than actually believing that one has your well being in mind versus the other. Neither do.

    1. Re:Don't vote by Duradin · · Score: 1

      "Neither do."

      There's your problem. There are more than two parties.

    2. Re:Don't vote by Pro923 · · Score: 1

      It's not my problem. My problem is that the majority of Americans will only vote for one or the other, and I'm stuck with both of them.

  95. Re:Victory For Free DOOM by Dredd13 · · Score: 1

    We've come a long way since the original ARPAnet my friend, and most of that innovation that got us here didn't come off the government teat.

  96. Re:Why would the Chair sellout? by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

    >>>save your partisan assumptions for the time you spend on the Daily Kos.

    The what?

    I did make a bad assumption that the FCC Chair is a Bush appointee. I apologize for my stupidity. But for the record I spend most of my time over at reason.com or lp.org or youtube or asimovs.com, not Republi-crat partisan sites called "Kos". I disliked all 3 of our last presidents and actually voted Harry Browne many moons ago, rather than vote either Gore or Bush or Kerry.

    Then I decided voting is pointless, since the congress is controlled by a duopoly of Big government party #1 and big government party #2 which will probably never be defeated or change. I wish we had an anti-federalist and pro-states'/pro-10th amendment party like the EU has (Nigel Firage, Daniel Hannan, etc), but I doubt it will ever happen.

    -C64_love

    --
    "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
  97. FCC is playing DICKtator... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Doesn't it bother anyone that the FCC does not have the power to do what they say they are going to do? Congress refuses to give them the power, the courts already said they don't have the power... You do know that a little thing called the Tenth Amendment exists, correct? How many of you are effected by the 'problem' that this 'vote' is supposed to fix? I for one have never had an issue with my internet (Comcast) traffic that some bureaucrat could fix... Do you not see how these 'powers' (if ruled legal, and there will be ruling one way or another) can be abused? Is no one familiar with the fairness doctrine? Do you not think that this is the first step towards the fairness doctrine of the internet? Is no one concerned about censorship or where this can be stretched to in the future? Once they (legally, not like this) have the power, where does it end? Have none of you learned anything about politicians over the past 10 years? THEY LIE FOR A LIVING! Repubs, Dumbocrats, BOTH parties are in this for themselves and the people who throw loads of cash at them, not you. "Never let a good crisis go to waste"

  98. You are a defeatist and a fool by scot4875 · · Score: 0

    People like you are why we can't have effective government.

    What's really funny is that no regulation vs. regulation written by the those who (should) be the ones that have to comply with it ends up being effectively the same thing. So we're really no worse off than we were before... Except now you get to hold this up as an example of how government doesn't work and expect us to find you insightful.

    --Jeremy

    --
    Jesus was a liberal
  99. Read it and weep - I am by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

    The only people voting for this tragic regulation are Democrats:

    On Tuesday, in a party-line vote, the three Democratic commissioners of the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) will adopt "net neutrality" rules."

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  100. I earned it by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

    I earned the right to be rude. I warned everyone like you exactly what would happen only to be dismissed as a fool.

    Now that we see how things really are I see no reason to pretend I respect you in the slightest since you have shown you deserve none.

    The FCC has not decided to let the market decide. They have decided to let the FCC decide.

    What is wrong with me is the tragedy of being someone who can predict the future it would appear. Truly, knowing what will happen yet seeing people head like sheep for a foregone disaster is something I would wish on few people.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    1. Re:I earned it by beakerMeep · · Score: 1

      Your hubris is epic. They haven't decided anything yet. You're basically saying that FCC setting out regulations (which are toothless) may possibly be bad in the future. So tell us, oh great predictor of future bad regulations, what's going to happen? I don't suppose you actually have the ability to lay out specifics of what you're even talking about, do you?

      I wish I could tell you what I think you've actually earned the right to but I'm going to leave that part out for civility's sake.

      --
      meep
  101. Much Worse by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

    So we're really no worse off than we were before

    And that in the end is the most dangerous assumption.

    Now that the FCC has proven they are allowed to write regulations covering the internet, they can in the future impose other restrictions.

    It's so easy to predict it's tragic.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    1. Re:Much Worse by Pojut · · Score: 1

      It's worth pointing out that you're twisting what people support into what people believe will actually happen.

  102. There is change to be had by SuperKendall · · Score: 0

    The Tea Party is reforming the Republicans from the inside, pretty much against their wishes but it is getting done. If you are a libertarian, and really want to change things - support the Tea Party and learn that much slander against them is untrue.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  103. Read the rules, anyone? by mopomi · · Score: 1

    Has anyone bemoaning the new rules actually read them? No, of course not. They read an opinion, with which they already agreed, and then started whining. Typical of the American public, really.

    Here, read the summary and then whine.
        http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-303745A1.doc (PDF wasn't available.)

    More definitions are included in the document above, as well as additional discussion.

    Following are key excerpts from the Report and Order adopted by the Commission to preserve the open Internet:
    Rule 1: Transparency

    A person engaged in the provision of broadband Internet access service shall publicly disclose accurate information regarding the network management practices, performance, and commercial terms of its broadband Internet access services sufficient for consumers to make informed choices regarding use of such services and for content, application, service, and device providers to develop, market, and maintain Internet offerings.

    Rule 2: No Blocking

    A person engaged in the provision of fixed broadband Internet access service, insofar as such person is so engaged, shall not block lawful content, applications, services, or non-harmful devices, subject to reasonable network management.

    A person engaged in the provision of mobile broadband Internet access service, insofar as such person is so engaged, shall not block consumers from accessing lawful websites, subject to reasonable network management; nor shall such person block applications that compete with the provider’s voice or video telephony services, subject to reasonable network

    Rule 3: No Unreasonable Discrimination

    A person engaged in the provision of fixed broadband Internet access service, insofar as such person is so engaged, shall not unreasonably discriminate in transmitting lawful network traffic over a consumer’s broadband Internet access service. Reasonable network management shall not constitute unreasonable discrimination.

    Select Definitions

    Broadband Internet access service: A mass-market retail service by wire or radio that provides the capability to transmit data to and receive data from all or substantially all Internet endpoints, including any capabilities that are incidental to and enable the operation of the communications service, but excluding dial-up Internet access service. This term also encompasses any service that the Commission finds to be providing a functional equivalent of the service described in the previous sentence, or that is used to evade the protections set forth in this Part.

    Reasonable network management. A network management practice is reasonable if it is appropriate and tailored to achieving a legitimate network management purpose, taking into account the particular network architecture and technology of the broadband Internet access service. Legitimate network management purposes include: ensuring network security and integrity, including by addressing traffic that is harmful to the network; addressing traffic that is unwanted by users (including by premise operators), such as by providing services or capabilities consistent with a user’s choices regarding parental controls or security capabilities; and by reducing or mitigating the effects of congestion on the network.

  104. Re:Will someone please provide a reasoned analysis by spitzak · · Score: 1

    Both.

    If you provide wired service, then the WSJ rule applies.

    The HuffPost is complaining that the same rule does not apply to wireless.

    This is the only actual information that seems to have come out. It does *some* of Net Neutrality (not clear how much) and does less (or none) for wireless.

    My best guess is that this legislation does nothing. There is lots of rabid foaming at the mouth that this is somehow giving the government some new ability to control the internet, but I have not seen it yet. It is possible however, and that would be bad.

  105. Liberals are worse by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

    Liberals not only tell you to keep digging the regulation hole, but remove the oxygen from the hole while you are doing it and tell you to breathe harder.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  106. You are the one being vague by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

    Naw, I blame the people who talk about about "regulation" vaguely and as if it's some monolithic thing

    It is from the standpoint of giving power to corporations. They are the ones at a federal level who can lobby for things, and thus control what regulations say.

    Indeed we find you are the vague one, promising that regulation can in fact exist without corporate input. Well then, give us a counter-example of a regulation that was not written without input from a number of large companies.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  107. None to be had by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

    Could we actually get an article with some details, rather than an editorial about what the policy MIGHT contain?

    Nope, because we are not allowed to see the regulation. We never have been. Right away that should raise red flags.

    Also we find that the regulation is to be approved down strict party lines, Democratic FCC chairpeople in support and Republicans against. This also raises red flags.

    The only perspective it is possible to have is that what we are about to get is very bad indeed, though the exact specific of how bad is yet to be known.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  108. Contradiction by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

    No, I am only pointing out what they believe they support is impossible so what they ACTUALLY are supporting is what is happening.

    The FCC would not be voting in favor of the regulation as it is without countless people like yourselves crying for them to pass network neutrality. So they decided what that meant and are voting for it with your "support".

    Regardless of if you like what is in it you brought it to being.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    1. Re:Contradiction by Pojut · · Score: 1

      No, I am only pointing out what they believe they support is impossible so what they ACTUALLY are supporting is what is happening.

      So if I support midgets flying, that means I actually support midgets falling off rooftops?

      See? I can be stupid too!

      The FCC would not be voting in favor of the regulation as it is without countless people like yourselves crying for them to pass network neutrality.

      Fuck you very much. I have repeatedly stated, in this thread and others, that I do not support their implementation of it. How many times do I have to say it before you stop twisting what I'm saying?

      I wanted it to be done so long as it was done right. Never once did I advocate what the FCC is planning..

      My ideal way to implement this would be legislation that would cut-off ISPs and the FCC from discriminating or judging based on the origin or destination of a packet. Unrealistic, I know, but there it is nontheless.

      yesterday, I was advocating Net Neutrality in a discussion here on Slashdot, and I continue to advocate for it. What the FCC is showing here, however, is not what I and other like-minded folks are advocating.

      So they decided what that meant and are voting for it with your "support".

      Once again, I have repeteadly and explicitely stated that I do not support their implementation of net neutrality. How many more times are you going to twist what I'm saying into something I'm not?

  109. The word "Obama" has no place in that headline by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The word "Obama" has no place in that headline.

    Slashdot is a great place. And we'll see dozens of articles about dozens of agencies each year. Let's avoid becoming FOX News and politically labeling everything shall we, and just stick with the essential facts of the stories.

    Or were we of the impression that the "Bush FCC" was really pushing for Net Nutrality? Or have we forgotten that the current FCC wants to push net neutrality but has been consistently boxed in over it?

  110. My thoughts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I guess if I was specifically told as a consumer what internet speeds I would get I would be ok with it. For example, if the agreement is for preferred services I get 15 mbps, and standard services I will get 10 mbps, and I can then chose which speed of internet I get based on knowing what I will actually get. The reason we get 15 mbps is because a preferred service company like netflix pays comcast some contracted amount of money, which then causes netflix monthly access amount to go up. This way at least the supposed people using the high amounts of bandwidth get charged instead of the cost being distributed, and non netflix users for example having to pay more because of the amount of bandwidth netflix users use.

    However, that is not going to be the way it works. I'll be told I get up to 15 mbps, and not told in any way that most services are limited to 5 mbps.

    Like all regulations, they sometimes start with a noble concept to get people elected, but end up nothing like the original concept when actually implemented. The average consumers would be much better off if government would just GTFO. Regulations help big companies remain big companies not help the little guy.

  111. inverse-square law by dazedNconfuzed · · Score: 1

    'nuf said.

    --
    Can we get a "-1 Wrong" moderation option?
    1. Re:inverse-square law by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 1

      Which means you have a local net that doesn't reach beyond suburban limits. In other words, it'd be completely useless.

      There's a reason why wireless isn't being used to funnel large traffic around.

      --
      Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
  112. Yes by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

    So if I support midgets flying, that means I actually support midgets falling off rooftops?

    Yes, if you proclaimed loudly you wanted a midget bill and it was plain large companies would benefit more from falling midgets.

    See? I can be stupid too!

    Too?

    I agree with the first part.

    I do not support their implementation of it.

    Sorry, but you did. You demanded the FCC act and so they have, in the way it was obvious they would.

    How many more times are you going to twist what I'm saying into something I'm not?

    Sorry but it doesn't matter what you said. It matters what you pushed for and what happens as a result.

    What we are witnessing is the easily predictable consequences of your actions regardless of your intent.

    You want to abdicate responsibility because you are horrified at the results. But again the FCC would not be voting this in place without the full-on support of people like you, saying they wanted the FCC to regulate the internet. They leverage that support to do what they want.

    If they don't care what you actually said in support then I don't see why you are arguing about what you said since it's irrelevant.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    1. Re:Yes by Pojut · · Score: 1

      Yes, if you proclaimed loudly you wanted a midget bill and it was plain large companies would benefit more from falling midgets.

      I see, so this only applies to legislation? ::facepalm::

      Sorry, but you did. You demanded the FCC act and so they have, in the way it was obvious they would.

      Did I? I don't recall saying that. Show me where I said I wanted them to act without expanding on how.

      Sorry but it doesn't matter what you said. It matters what you pushed for and what happens as a result.

      What I pushed for is what I said: enact legislation that would prevent the ISPs and the FCC from controlling packets based on their origin and destination. I also pointed out that it was unlikely to happen, but it's still what I support.

      What we are witnessing is the easily predictable consequences of your actions regardless of your intent.

      I see. So it's worthless to express what I really think, and instead should just take up the opinion of what is most likely to happen? Great advice.

      You want to abdicate responsibility because you are horrified at the results. But again the FCC would not be voting this in place without the full-on support of people like you, saying they wanted the FCC to regulate the internet.

      Once again, they had my support as long as the legislation prevented ISPs AND the FCC from discriminating the origins and/or destinations of packets, which I've said since this topic started many years ago.

      If they don't care what you actually said in support then I don't see why you are arguing about what you said since it's irrelevant.

      I'm arguing about what I said because of you, not because of them. Otherwise, I wouldn't be talking to you, would I.

  113. Re:Will someone please provide a reasoned analysis by markjhood2003 · · Score: 1

    Basically it seems that the FCC accepted most of the guidance that Google and Verizon collaborated upon back in August. Basic net neutrality for wired connections, no net neutrality for wireless: http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2010/08/google-verizon-propose-open-vs-paid-internets/

  114. Likely violates today's order by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

    Oh but you are missing the sneakier way they are gonna get you...caps. I'm in one of the test markets for the new caps, which BTW are 36GB for residential, and 76GB for business. Now that is $106! for the bundle with basic cable and phone, or $180! for the "business" which is the same just with a higher cap. Now here is how they get you:

    Vonage? Counts against the cap. Their VoIP? Don't. Linux and Mac updates? Count. Windows? Don't because they got "donated" a WSUS server. Anyone other than Netflix and Youtube? Counts. Their PPV along with Youtube and Netflix? Don't, and the only reason you are allowed Youtube and Netflix is they paid to put a local server. Starting to see a trend?

    Yup. I'm seeing a probable violation of today's order. We don't have the full text available, but we do have the news release with excerpts, and it certainly looks like unreasonable discrimination by way of paid prioritization. From the excerpts of the order provided with the official news release PDF (may have availability problems due to high demand), DOC (seems to be available):

    Rule 3: No Unreasonable Discrimination

    A person engaged in the provision of fixed broadband Internet access service, insofar as such person is so engaged, shall not unreasonably discriminate in transmitting lawful network traffic over a consumer’s broadband Internet access service. Reasonable network management shall not constitute unreasonable discrimination.
    .
    .
    .
    Pay for Priority Unlikely to Satisfy “No Unreasonable Discrimination” Rule

    A commercial arrangement between a broadband provider and a third party to directly or indirectly favor some traffic over other traffic in the connection to a subscriber of the broadband provider (i.e., “pay for priority”) would raise significant cause for concern. First, pay for priority would represent a significant departure from historical and current practice. Since the beginning of the Internet, Internet access providers have typically not charged particular content or application providers fees to reach the providers’ consumer retail service subscribers or struck pay-for-priority deals, and the record does not contain evidence that U.S. broadband providers currently engage in such arrangements. Second this departure from longstanding norms could cause great harm to innovation and investment in and on the Internet. As discussed above, pay-for-priority arrangements could raise barriers to entry on the Internet by requiring fees from edge providers, as well as transaction costs arising from the need to reach agreements with one or more broadband providers to access a critical mass of potential users. Fees imposed on edge providers may be excessive because few edge providers have the ability to bargain for lesser fees, and because no broadband provider internalizes the full costs of reduced innovation and the exit of edge providers from the market. Third, pay-for-priority arrangements may particularly harm non-commercial end users, including individual bloggers, libraries, schools, advocacy organizations, and other speakers, especially those who communicate through video or other content sensitive to network congestion. Even open Internet skeptics acknowledge that pay for priority may disadvantage non-commercial uses of the network, which are typically less able to pay for priority, and for which the Internet is a uniquely important platform. Fourth, broadband providers that sought to offer pay-for-priority services would have an incentive to limit the quality of service provided to non-prioritized traffic. In light of each of these concerns, as a general matter, it is unlikely that pay for priority would satisfy the “no unreasonable discrimination” standard. The practice of a broadband

    1. Re:Likely violates today's order by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      Ahhhh...but I think I ALREADY see how they are gonna loophole their way out of this! You see they are gonna argue that they are NOT "giving favor to a third party" but mearly allowing them to pay for their own servers on the local network and thus keep from incurring bandwidth charges.

      You see, they will argue all of the "local" traffic is free, since they don't have to pay for any peering on anything that stays local, and any other company is welcome to buy space in their server room or set up their own local servers wherever they like. And of course the customer is free to go anywhere on the Internet he or she likes, as long as they stay under 36GB, after that they have to charge the bandwidth hogs to keep prices fair, don't you see?

      All I can tell you is talking to a guy that works there my above post is how it works, and is planned for a nationwide rollout. Everything that stays local is free, which means THEIR services, THEIR VoIP, since most people don't do much calling out of their local area, Netflix and Youtube are gonna pull an Akamai and put up local servers with the popular stuff, and as I said Windows updates are free thanks to the WSUS server setup. Anything else will hit against your craptastic 36GB cap. And considering the choices here are the cableco with their caps or AT&T DSL which tops out here at around 300Kb, which from what I've been told is due to the lines being nearly 60 years old and which they have NO intentions to replace, or enjoy that dialup.

      So personally I hope the FCC puts the brakes on their ass, but considering how we haven't seen any pro consumer laws in over 30 years I won't hold my breath.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    2. Re:Likely violates today's order by protektor · · Score: 1

      Who defines reasonable and what are the technical specs for reasonable network management. If an ISP wants all their local traffic to run perfectly then isn't it reasonable for them to have a higher QoS for their traffic than others? Netflix, Yahoo, and other CDNs pay to put servers in the ISPs racks and suddenly those are local services that get priority routing as well. They are only making the local network run better for their customers. They will tell you "How in the world is it bad that I make my own network run well? I can't control the Internet at large but at least I can make my own network run really well." Add in to the mix private connections sold to large web sites by backbone providers, and suddenly those lines are part of the network and they get priority routing as well.

      That is exactly how ISPs and backbone providers are going to use this to make all the money that they can grab off the table. This whole thing is worse than if the FCC had done nothing.

    3. Re:Likely violates today's order by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      THANK YOU! Your explanation is much better than mine, but from what I was told by someone working on the setup that is EXACTLY what the plan is. All local traffic is "free" to the end user, gobble it ALL you want. But the second you leave the local network you have to start counting the GB, which as I said with a lousy 36GB for $106! and $1.50! per GB if you go over? It really won't take much effort at all to "steer" the customer into staying in their AOL style walled garden. After all, it'll have Youtube and Netflix, it'll have THEIR VoIP and PPV, what more can you want?

      And the sad part is this screwjob by the FCC must have already been planned for quite some time, as they began their "test marketing" over a year ago in my area. I find it hard to believe they would just so happen to come up with a plan that perfectly fits the loopholes as nicely as it does without some prior heads up. And if you realize by locking everyone into their walled garden their expenses will fall like a stone, thanks to no longer needing to really buy any significant backbone by keeping most traffic local, well the $$$ these guys are gonna be rolling in while simultaneously sticking us on the short bus of the information superhighway is gonna be just unreal. Then they will start talking about "bandwidth hogs" and making it sound like anybody that uses over the cap is just a filthy pirate!. The setup is as you say just too obvious.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    4. Re:Likely violates today's order by protektor · · Score: 1

      Oh you haven't seen anything yet. Wait until they start to blackmail the big websites in coughing up money to get "good service" from the ISP/Backbone providers network. "You know your website would be so much better if you just put a few servers here and paid us a huge monthly fee for that." Just look at what Comcast did to Level3/Netflix. Expect to see a lot more of that.

      Yes then add in that more and more ISPs are dropping their bandwidth caps lower and lower secretly. If you read the fine print you see it, but they advertise it as a 8Meg connection, but you can only use like 50gigs of traffic or whatever per month. They make it sound like unlimited and even some sales people will tell you it is, until you ask about the fine print..."oh I didn't know that." Some of them are just you hit your limit that's it, no more until next month other than maybe getting your email.

      I don't care what anyone says if you read the thing carefully I see huge gaping holes that they will use to create tiered service levels. You are right they have been wanted to go to metered Internet levels for a long time. They complain a few people use more bandwidth than others and that causes problems for everyone else. Nope that's a lie. They just want to squeeze out as much money from customers as they can. I used to run an ISP. Yes there are high users out there, but they don't drag the whole network down, if they do you either have a crap network, are big time overselling your bandwidth or you are doing something seriously wrong.

      All this is going to do is cost the American public a whole lot more for Internet access and won't do one bit to stimulate competition. It won't cause anyone to spend more on the infrastructure to make the last mile, and/or the Internet in general better. It probably will even consolidate the ISPs even more, which means more lost jobs.

      If you look at the infrastructure of the Internet is really hasn't gotten any better or really changed much in the last 5-10 years. Things are pretty much the same. The reason is the big guys drove the locally owned ISPs out of business and seriously hard core reduced the amount of competition they have. The fact that you can make a form to ask people what ISP they use and put in 10 default answers and 1 other, and cover 90%-95% of the population is a clue that something is seriously wrong compared to 15 years ago.

    5. Re:Likely violates today's order by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      Ahhhh...but I think I ALREADY see how they are gonna loophole their way out of this! You see they are gonna argue that they are NOT "giving favor to a third party" but mearly allowing them to pay for their own servers on the local network and thus keep from incurring bandwidth charges.

      Look, I see what you are trying, but I don't see any way you can say that "allowing them to pay for something that keeps them from the negative treatment other services gets" isn't exactly paid prioritization.

      All I can tell you is talking to a guy that works there my above post is how it works, and is planned for a nationwide rollout.

      I'm sure it is how it works, I am sure it is planned for a nationwide rollout, I am sure that, in fact, the FCC was aware of practices like that, and I am fairly sure that this is the exact kind of practice that the non-discrimination provision and the special call-out to the relation of paid prioritization to that provision was put into the current Report and Order.

      So personally I hope the FCC puts the brakes on their ass, but considering how we haven't seen any pro consumer laws in over 30 years I won't hold my breath.

      If you haven't seen any pro-consumer laws in 30 years, that's a problem with your vision more than anything else.

    6. Re:Likely violates today's order by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      Who defines reasonable and what are the technical specs for reasonable network management.

      "Reasonable Network Management" is defined in the excerpts from the definitions section of the order provided with the official news release.

      Reasonable network management. A network management practice is reasonable if it is appropriate and tailored to achieving a legitimate network management purpose, taking into account the particular network architecture and technology of the broadband Internet access service. Legitimate network management purposes include: ensuring network security and integrity, including by addressing traffic that is harmful to the network; addressing traffic that is unwanted by users (including by premise operators), such as by providing services or capabilities consistent with a user’s choices regarding parental controls or security capabilities; and by reducing or mitigating the effects of congestion on the network.

      If an ISP wants all their local traffic to run perfectly then isn't it reasonable for them to have a higher QoS for their traffic than others?

      The desire to have local traffic (i.e., services run by ISP and by those directly contracting with the ISP) run perfectly at the expense of non-local traffic is exactly what the FCC, in the excerpts from the Report and Order provided with the official news release, says is not reasonable in the long section on paid prioritization. So, no, its not likely to be found reasonable under the order because the order specifically addresses that situation and says that it is unlikely to ever satisfy the no unreasonable discrimination rule. More than just stating the conclusion with regard to paid prioritization, it specifically identifies several factors that weigh in favor of that conclusion, including, among others, that it "cause great harm to innovation and investment in and on the Internet" by raising "raise barriers to entry on the Internet by requiring fees from edge providers, as well as transaction costs arising from the need to reach agreements with one or more broadband providers to access a critical mass of potential users", and that such "arrangements may particularly harm non-commercial end users, including individual bloggers, libraries, schools, advocacy organizations, and other speakers, especially those who communicate through video or other content sensitive to network congestion", and that providers engaging in such tactics "would have an incentive to limit the quality of service provided to non-prioritized traffic". Even if one could argue that favoring local-local traffic over traffic from the public internet was distinct from "paid prioritization" as such, clearly many of the factors that the FCC cites in its discussion of why paid prioritization would generally be unreasonable discrimination apply to a practice of favoring local-local traffic over traffic from the public internet no matter what name you apply to the practice.

      So, again, I'd say -- from the information we have from the FCC -- such a practice seems very clearly contrary to the prohibition on unreasonable discrimination in the Report and Order.

  115. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  116. WSJ excerpt was right, HuffPo excerpt is wrong. by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

    If you provide wired service, then the WSJ rule applies.

    The HuffPost is complaining that the same rule does not apply to wireless.

    That's not at all correct.

    Both the WSJ and HuffPo pieces were written based on previous drafts of the Report and Order and speculation about what comments from the various commissioners about what changes were made in the Report and Order actually being voted on. While we still don't have the full text of the Report and Order, we do have "selected excerpts" in the official FCC news release, and the WSJ description (the exceprt provided in GP, not discussing the rest of the WSJ article) is pretty accurate both on wired and wireless. (That is, the looser -- for the carriers -- wireless rule is pretty much exactly what the WSJ describes, the more restrictive -- for the carriers -- wired rule includes a broader anti-discrimination prohibition and even more protection of end-users freedom of choice.)

    To recap from GP:

    WSJ says: "The new FCC rules, for example, would prevent a broadband provider, such as Comcast Corp., AT&T, Inc. or Verizon Communications Inc., from hobbling access to an online video service, such as Netflix, that competes with its own video services."

    HuffPo says: "Instead of a rule to protect Internet users' freedom to choose, the Commission has opened the door for broadband payola - letting phone and cable companies charge steep tolls to favor the content and services of a select group of corporate partners, relegating everyone else to the cyber-equivalent of a winding dirt road. "

    Relevant to the WSJ and HuffPo excerpts in GP, the actual Report and Order (from the excerpts in the official FCC news release) says:

    Rule 2: No Blocking

    A person engaged in the provision of fixed broadband Internet access service, insofar as such person is so engaged, shall not block lawful content, applications, services, or non-harmful devices, subject to reasonable network management.

    A person engaged in the provision of mobile broadband Internet access service, insofar as such person is so engaged, shall not block consumers from accessing lawful websites, subject to reasonable network management; nor shall such person block applications that compete with the provider’s voice or video telephony services, subject to reasonable network

    Rule 3: No Unreasonable Discrimination

    A person engaged in the provision of fixed broadband Internet access service, insofar as such person is so engaged, shall not unreasonably discriminate in transmitting lawful network traffic over a consumer’s broadband Internet access service. Reasonable network management shall not constitute unreasonable discrimination.

    Pay for Priority Unlikely to Satisfy “No Unreasonable Discrimination” Rule

    A commercial arrangement between a broadband provider and a third party to directly or indirectly favor some traffic over other traffic in the connection to a subscriber of the broadband provider (i.e., “pay for priority”) would raise significant cause for concern. First, pay for priority would represent a significant departure from historical and current practice. Since the beginning of the Internet, Internet access providers have typically not charged particular content or application providers fees to reach the providers’ consumer retail service subscribers or struck pay-for-priority deals, and the record does not contain evidence that U.S. broadband providers currently engage in such arrangements. Second this departure from longstanding norms could cause great harm to innovation and investment in and on the Internet. As discussed above, pay-for-priority arrangements could raise barriers to entry on the Internet by requiring fees from edge providers, as well as transaction costs arising from the need to reach agreements with one or more broadband providers to ac

    1. Re:WSJ excerpt was right, HuffPo excerpt is wrong. by spitzak · · Score: 1

      Well that sounds remarkably reasonable.

      I'm really not seeing the "cave" that the left is claiming, or the "evil guvvinment is taking over the internet" the right is claiming.

      Of course that is no fun. Everybody would rather think the USA is going to hell and it is all that other persons fault...

  117. Alternative Voting goes a long way by Chakra5 · · Score: 1

    I suggest Ranked Choice, or Instant Runoff voting. It undercuts the stranglehold the king-makers have had on the process. Imagine if your vote for who you really want to see running things didn't automatically backfire and end up as a defacto vote for who you absolutely _don't_ want to see with power? Imagine Netflix type stars next to each candidate. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant-runoff_voting

    --
    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please.--Mark Twain
  118. Bah! by reboot246 · · Score: 1

    It may not have been what you wanted, but it's still a stinking pile of bullshit. The FCC has NO authority whatsoever to regulate the net. When Congress wouldn't give them the authority, the FCC just went ahead as if they already had it. That's not the way things are supposed to work in this country. A bipartisan move is already underway in Congress to reverse this.

    Keep going. Fuck up the best thing that's happened to communication and commerce in the last hundred years.

  119. Pick a problem... by manaway · · Score: 1

    You're already taken the first step, educating yourself and acknowledging your responsibility to act on this knowledge. There is no general answer to your question, you must first pick a problem.

    Then what to do depends on what you're good at or are willing to learn. Talking with family and friends about facts is useful. Good at IT? Find a local or national or international group needing some tech help. Check the paper, find out about upcoming group or community meetings and go to some until you find what you're looking for. Go to city council meetings, talk with a speaker that seems to have similar interests, or a decent cause. Volunteer to write, print pamphlets, or knock on neighbor's or congressperson's doors.

    There are lots of small groups in your town, but frequently don't know about each other; maybe you could be the go-between and find the common ground, set up some way to share documents, info, skills, people. Good organizers are desperately needed, maybe that's something you could accomplish. Get outside your comfort zone, feel that peculiar aspect of freedom. Get fired up, get sick and tired of it, switch or add causes but don't give up. The plutocracy has been working on this for centuries, we must be too, big results won't come easy or quickly. Heck, you convinced me, now I'm going to follow your lead and do something new. Thanks, sincerely.

  120. Re:Why would the Chair sellout? by fishexe · · Score: 1

    Wasn't he appointed by the Democrat president? Or was he a Bush appointee? I assume the latter if he's bending-over to appease the megacorps.

    Party affiliation only determines which megacorps he wants to bend over for. One way or the other, the corporations will bend you over anyway.

    Actually, I think it's all the same megacorps, and party affiliation just determines how far the bend. I think these days it's statutorily regulated to be an angle of 120 degrees of bending over for Republicans, 117.3 degrees of bending over for Democrats.

    --
    "I don't care about the Constitution!" --Bill O'Reilly, November 17, 2009
  121. read the 'fine' print first by seekertom · · Score: 1

    Glenn Beck said the nn ruling will require him and his kind to provide time for opposing views on all his broadcasts, (making the broadcasts 'neutral'), which seems like a bad thing. Others have said the nn rule will prevent folks like comecaste from throttling my internet speed if they see me watching a movie streamed from their competitor, netflixt, which seems like a good thing. Both ideas are contradictory to each other; one favors the big corporations, the other favors people's rights. Many of the posts above this one also seem to bounce off the walls about what nn actually says. When will some de-facto intelligencia put into words exactly what the new network neutrality act says? Surely everyone here who has voiced an opinion should be able to enlighten the rest of us?

    1. Re:read the 'fine' print first by cyclomedia · · Score: 1

      Glenn Beck said the nn ruling will require him and his kind to provide time for opposing views on all his broadcasts, (making the broadcasts 'neutral'), which seems like a bad thing.

      Glenn Beck is full of shit.

      "Netruality" in the sense that the FCC are talking is nothing to do with right vs left and everything to do with comcast vs netflix and which one I choose to use my broadband connection for. If the connection is neutral i can choose either, if the connection is biased then i have to choose one over the other

      --
      If you don't risk failure you don't risk success.
  122. I'm going to start my own internet ... by Dabido · · Score: 1

    ... with hookers and liquor and black jack. In fact, forget the internet!

    --
    Sure enough, the cow costume was hanging up next to the superhero outfit and sailors uniform. (S,Spud)
  123. No good deed ever goes unpunished by RogueWarrior65 · · Score: 1

    There are always unintended consequences to increased government control. You may think that Net Neutrality is a good thing in that your precious Bittorrent traffic and cat videos will now run faster but no matter how the government tries to put the screws to industry, industry never bends over and takes it up the a$$. In this case, the ISPs who are suppliers of the infrastructure will simply stop upgrading it because they can't make any money on it. It's no different than the government control over healthcare. You will never get top-of-the-line products or services unless the providers can make money on it. Mark my words: broadband development in the U.S. will grind to a halt. There will be no more rollouts of high end services such as FIOS. There will be no more rollout of 4G services.

  124. It's the loopholes by jwietelmann · · Score: 1

    My cable company doesn't have to specifically block competing entertainment services. All they have to do is throttle media streaming in general in the name of "traffic management."

  125. The order directly addresses your complaint by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

    My cable company doesn't have to specifically block competing entertainment services. All they have to do is throttle media streaming in general in the name of "traffic management."

    If they do it to "media streaming" but also provide their own streaming media services which are not throttled, it may be "traffic management", but I don't think it is likely to be "reasonable network management" as defined in the present order, rather than "unreasonable discrimination". One might note that the last sentence of the extended discussion of why and how paid prioritization would generally be prohibited by the no unreasonable discrimination provision is this: "The practice of a broadband Internet access service provider prioritizing its own content, applications, or services, or those of its affiliates, would raise the same significant concerns and would be subject to the same standards and considerations in evaluating reasonableness as third-party pay-for-priority arrangements."

  126. No. This is exactly what Obama/FCC chair wanted by jlrowe · · Score: 1
    The Net Neutrality Coup
    The campaign to regulate the Internet was funded by a who's who of left-liberal foundations.
    John Fund: The Net Neutrality Coup - WSJ.com

    "The net neutrality vision for government regulation of the Internet began with the work of Robert McChesney, a University of Illinois communications professor who founded the liberal lobby Free Press in 2002. Mr. McChesney's agenda? "At the moment, the battle over network neutrality is not to completely eliminate the telephone and cable companies," he told the website SocialistProject in 2009. "But the ultimate goal is to get rid of the media capitalists in the phone and cable companies and to divest them from control."

    A year earlier, Mr. McChesney wrote in the Marxist journal Monthly Review that "any serious effort to reform the media system would have to necessarily be part of a revolutionary program to overthrow the capitalist system itself." Mr. McChesney told me in an interview that some of his comments have been "taken out of context." He acknowledged that he is a socialist and said he was "hesitant to say I'm not a Marxist."

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703886904576031512110086694.html