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Ask Slashdot: Best Certifications To Get?
Hardhead_7 writes "Our recent discussion about how much your degree is worth got me thinking. I've been working in the IT field for several years now, but I don't have anything to my name other than an A+ certificate and vendor specific training (e.g., Dell certified). Now I'm looking to move up in the IT field, and I want some stuff on my resume to demonstrate to future employers that I know what I'm doing, enough that I can get in the door for an interview. So my question to Slashdot is this: What certifications are the most valuable and sought-after? What will impress potential employers and be most likely to help land a decent job for someone who doesn't have a degree, but knows how to troubleshoot and can do a bit of programming if needed?"
Probably depends a lot on where you are.
Around here, certifications mean very little. Employers are generally more concerned about the kind of work you've done at previous jobs. A few good references who will tell people how awesome you are and an impressive list of "my duties included" does you more good than a sheet full of "ABC+ Pro Certified" here.
That said, I've talked to friends elsewhere that have related the exact opposite.
I'd say ask around your local area. No point in getting a plate full of certifications if they mean nothing to the employers in your area.
A degree. Seriously. If you're not willing (or able) to get a degree, what certs are valuable are going to depend heavily on what exactly they're looking for. People hiring for a network admin position are going to value things like Cisco certs much more than A+, while someone hiring for a generalist IT position in a small company might be the other way around.
You really end up with two non-degree options: try to specialize and get as many (and as advanced) certs as possible in a narrow area and then try to find a related job, or generalize yourself and try to keep getting certs in areas you haven't yet covered, and look for a generalist job. The specialist job will likely pay better, but it may be easier to find work as a generalist.
Experience does. Build something, or contribute to an Open Source project.
The first thing I look for is contributions to open source software projects. But, we do open source related IT services. And it's rare to find.
Get a CCNA if you want to make money. MCSE is a total joke nowadays.
The people who look for certs are generally clueless, but unfortunately are in charge. The people who want to know what you know are the ones you want to work for. What kind of certs do you think the folks have who broke into Sony and PBS? Likely, none, but they probably know more about systems than the guy just hired with the cert. NO, do not become a hacker! That's not my message. I guess what I'm saying is try to find a place that sees YOU and not just your certification. You've been at this a while, so you know more than what a test can reveal and that's very valuable.
If you say on your resume you have XYZ certification - how does one go about verifying that fact? uni degrees etc I can see how they can be easily verified, but these other certs don't seem to have the same deal.
You could probably list a whole bunch of certifications that can't be verified other than your on the job abilities. In short, they're all meaningless.
Idiot. Certifiable idiot, that is.
Your personal network is way more powerful. Knowing what you're doing is a big help also
As stated in prior conversations, certifications are meaningless in IT. They don't impress anyone. It is a matter of what you have actually done or not done. Most employers will have you do various things to make sure you know your stuff (those that don't might be impressed by certs, but they are screwed up companies) before they hire you. I wouldn't waste your time or money on them. It is more important to learn your craft and get experience.
No really. Put your experience on your resume. That's the only thing that counts once you've worked in industry for a little bit. If you've been in IT for several years, then you should be good at what you do. What? You suck at what you do? Oh well... then you should get some certifications.
Someone with several years of experience wouldn't ask this question.
My girlfriend is Double D cert' and I just pay her to sit at home.
She doesn't even have a college education, I would be amazed if she even has a GED.
Soon as I find out where she got the DD's I'll let you know.
http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/2000-08-31/
Cert what you know. Whatever you do, get a cert in it. Don't be afraid to get a "vendor specific" cert. After all, CCIE is nothing more than just a vendor specific cert. Since you don't have a degree, having some certs to throw around help people believe in your abilities, even if the cert doesn't do anything other than reflect knowledge and skills you already have.
Learn to love Alaska
I could tell you all kinds of six-figure positions get shot out of something like a CISSP certification, but if you absolutely despise doing work in the Security field, then I must advise against it.
Even in IT, no matter what you choose to do, always remember to look for something that gives you some form of reward or personal satisfaction beyond the monetary factor.
Took me quite a few years to finally realize that personal satisfaction and overall happiness are much more important, not only to balance out work and life, but also to enable me to perform my job to the best of my ability.
Around my (admittedly small-er) shop we don't count certification for anything. If we want a programmer we ask for an example code and talk with the applicant. If we want a web page developer we ask for an example web-page and talk with the applicant. The key begin: "we talk with the applicant". After a dozen years of doing this i can assure you there is *no* correlation between who we hired and whether they were "certified" by any private interest. I'm sure this isn't true for larger companies (YMMV etc), but if i were you, i'd get the foundations from a college degree, develop a "portfolio" on your own, and save your certification money.
Have patches to show for it. Don't waste your time and money on useless certs that interviewers will overlook if they're feeling kindly about and look down on if they're not.
Some people look for experience and hands-on expertise and HR people look for words in a search list. I don't think I have ever been hired easily by going through HR filters but begged to work for companies who know what my resume actually means. Techs know other techs. And, frankly, I am equally skeptical of people who go out chasing every certification they can until their resume looks like a NASCAR racer.
Actually, my wide range of experience leads people to ask me the same question(s) asked of people with a multitude of certs: "do you REALLY know all that stuff?" My answer is "I've been doing this a very long time and I don't put anything down there I can't prove. There's still LOTS I don't know, but I doubt there's much I can't pick up in a very short time." And that's the reality of it. Can you do it all? Is it "easy" for you? If it's not easy for you, then specialize and at least get really good in your speciality. But don't just go getting some labels if it's not in your nature to actually be able to do what you claim -- if you're not truly inclined in that area, you're not just disappointing your employer, you're harming the whole of IT out here by lowering everyone's expectations.
Heh... someone above says "degree... seriously... degree!" Really? If you want to get into management, yes... get a degree... a BUSINESS DEGREE. Getting a degree in computer science or programming is... uh... a huge waste of time and money. I have been through some of that and I know what people come out of those mills. They can teach and test a lot of things, but they never seem to be able to insert that "spark" every good programmer has. That spark comes from somewhere else. And if we are talking about a degree in anything else computer and networking related? Take courses in various technologies, not a whole degree. Degrees in IT are useless.
Cisco, Microsoft, and even Red Hat certs are worth getting if you're heading towards sysadmin or networking jobs. I'm looking to get my A+, Network+, CCNA, CCNP, and eventually CCIE, in that order. Probably get a Microsoft cert somewhere along the lines. "If you're in the networking field, and you've got a CCIE, nothing else matters. Your chances of getting the job triple, at least, the second the employer sees that on your resume," is what I've been hearing from every senior network tech I've talked to in the past few years.
Well played, sir. It's been a while since I've been Goatse'd
STCE = Slashdot Troll CErtification. I just passed through 8000 of victims (and that is just on last link I have beeing using for about 2~3 months. I have around 2000 victims on older links).
They're all barely worth the paper they're printed on. I have more than 15 different certifications to my name, gotten at a time a few years ago when I was foolish enough to think they meant a damn. They don't. Trust me. I've managed to make what almost anybody in IT save CIOs would say is good money, have as much job security as anyone ever can, the respect of my peers and a lot of influence on how things are done in the shop. My certifications have played zero role in that. Also, I regularly interview developers and I can tell you that I barely even SEE if you have certifications.
The ONLY time a certification MIGHT mean something in my opinion is if you're talking about an entry-level position. Then, seeing that someone had the motiviation to go get the cert might mean something good. Other than that, don't both would be my advice.
As others have said, actually DOING stuff and being able to demonstrate what you bring to the table is what matters. Yes, it's true, we have the same catch-22 as any other field: you need experience before you can get experience. But, in our field, there is a very easy solution to this problem: open-source. If you're trying to break in, don't bother getting certs... instead, spend that time contributing to an OSS project, and maybe even starting one yourself. That sort of experience will sell and you'll get your foot in the door, much more so than if you come in with a bunch of useless acronyms after your name.
...why not get a degree?
Get it in something computer science / IT related if you want. Or study something that holds another interest for you. A degree means you can learn. A cert means you studied for a specific test. There's a big difference.
Besides, you don't want to be in PC repair and troubleshooting for the rest of your life, do you?
First of all you need to have solid foundation in almost all the areas of Comp.Sc. While you may get it from any one university, start taking one or two foundation courses from the Community Colleges to develop the skill sets and then go to some good Univ. (if you can find one, which is not admitting 200 students to make money) and also find a very good instructor( You don't get good friends and teachers unless you search for them) and find a mentor in the area of your interest. Once you have the foundation and you have done some really cool programs (open source would be a good starting place), then try for jobs. Your skills + solid knowledge + proven development skills will land you in good job. Just programming alone will not cut the ice.
It's received through participating in open source project(s). A few things look as good as this; just link to your github or the most notorious bugs you've squashed from your resume and you'll be noticed. Plus you might even make good friends with like minded people and or get a call to work for a company developing a solution on top of your favourite open source project!
On a side note, why would you bother with an A+ or Network+ and just not focus on getting your NA and then the others?
At night I drink myself to sleep and pretend I don't care that you're not here with me
Get a degree.
SSL -- All others are pointless. They prove nothing.
I've seen a few contributors that ought to be certified :-)
A Cert in Common Sense will mean more to a good employer than a fancy piece of paper stating you are good at taking a test, of course demonstrating that you have common sense and experience in the field in which they need you will greatly depend on your references, there was a time that an A+ cert would get you in the door to almost anywhere with a good salary, but post .com tech industry there are fewer and fewer certs that aren't already saturated in the job pool, but a lot of those people have little to no real experience. Cisco certs are always good to have, but rightly difficult to obtain the higher tier you are shooting for, IIRC dell has a program where you can get help in getting certs that will help expand your knowledge base as long as they can utilize the skill set you wish to learn.
______ Eagles may fly but monkeys don't get sucked into jet engines.
HR expects a Bachelor's degree even for the office help, admin assistant, secretary, etc. It's the new high school diploma, since high school diplomas have been rendered useless by local control and selfishness. (a town has an incentive to pass every student in the local school system)
His only hope is to avoid HR.
I won't hire anyone who puts things like "certifications" on their resume. I want to know what you REALLY know and what you've REALLY done. If the shop you're thinking of working for is actually looking for certification, you probably don't want to work there. (Or conversely, perhaps you're not the kind of employee our kind of shop is looking for. :) )
STCE got me 3 well paid jobs in a row, the last one I work for now.
It really depends what you're going to use it for, and if you want to shell out the money for a fancy one from Verisign or the likes.
What?
When I'm hiring, we often look for developers of the software we use.
Contributors to PostgreSQL, Solr, and Rails are especially welcome.
Perhaps if we used DB2 or SQLServer, developers who worked on those might be of interest. But not too much because even with their knowledge, it'd be pretty hard for them to license the source to make use of their knowledge; and we couldn't code-review their contributions anyway to see if they really know what they're talking about.
The issue with certifications from IT companies is that there are very few standards which regulate them. Essentially, all they mean is that you turned up and probably passed a test. If you have not used this knowledge since then the certificate is as good a useless. If you have that degree from a reputable school then that already speaks to your ability. Now you have to be convincing of the specific skills.
Generalizations are impossible. There are so many areas of IT which require skills that you will never acquire in a classroom that the only way to see if a candidate is worth their salt is an interview. Here we come to your point of actually reaching the interview stage. The US is a country which largely works on a "who you know" basis. Networking is very important here. This differs in other countries. As someone who regularly reviews resumes for candidates I am shocked by the poor quality of the literacy in the resume and also the incorrect use of technical names, abbreviations and acronyms (and people who have no idea what this last word actually means). You can judge a great deal about the candidate from their resume. Do not try to use terms with which you are not 100% familiar. It is incredible the number of resumes from candidates who will incorrectly use terms because they are not proficient and try to over fill the skill section.
Hopefully, if you are looking to move to an organization worth moving to, they will have good staff at the interview. If the position is looking for a particular proficiency and you don't have it then of course you are at a disadvantage. But an employer will consider paying less for someone who is bright, hard working and thinks the right way.
Specific skill sets can be easily acquired in most circumstances. General skills can take a lifetime to acquire.
Have your resume edited by someone else. Please. Then find someone who can deliver it to the right person. This is your best chance of getting an interview.
Attitude and effort.
If you have both, you can learn anything we need you to know.
If you want me to hire you, then you will be asked to do the following:
1. Demonstrate effort. Any relevant cert will do, a body of completed work will help -- even home projects etc.
2. Demonstrate attitude. Be on time for your interview, be interested and even excited about working for us. Fake this convincingly if you must, but if you do, you'll be expected to fake it continuously for the duration of your probationary period. (not as easy as it sounds).
3. End the recession so I have money to hire you.
Certifications are only important if you want to claim you have knowledge of an area but have absolutely no other way of showing that you know it.
If you do have the experience, you give good examples of what you have done which require that knowledge. Simply listing a certification equates to, "Though I haven't done anything to show it, if I was given that task, there is a CHANCE that I could accomplish it." Obviously if you're coming in with no experience, some indication that you can handle the job is helpful. However, going out of your way to get additional hands-on experience will make the potential employer more comfortable than just saying if you had done so, you would have been successful.
If you're a programmer, programming language certifications mean very little. After all, you're a programmer. IF however, you don't always want to be a programmer and want to find a way to parlay yourself into a more management related position then something like a Project Management certification (PMP) could do quiet well. Other certs that show a certain level of expertise or specialty can be effective too, but only if you're trying to branch out. Getting certified in something like Backtrack for security and penetration testing can go a long way towards making you a more well rounded option.
Likewise, if you've worked your way into programming but don't have a degree, the certifications can go a long way towards adding credibility when resumes are being sifted through.
If you get certifications for something you already do or should very naturally pick up in your normal course of employment though, it's not going to stand out that much. If you've been a java programmer for 10 years and have every java certification under the Sun (see what I did there?) it's not going to be much different on paper than just saying you've been a java programmer for 10 years. You have 10 years of java programming experience and Backtrack or PMP certification though...all of a sudden you stand out a little more.
Similarly, if you have spent most of your career as a Python programmer and then got certified for Perl, Ruby, and PHP...not that big of a deal. You get a major Java or .NET certification though...that's fairly different environment and the certification goes a long way towards validating your ability in that area especially if you haven't previously had a job yet to back it up. It's help to transition from one to another because, unless somebody is desperate to hire "a programmer" if you don't have the job experience with the language you telling them how quickly "you can pick it up" isn't going to do you any good.
Nobody wants to pay you while you learn to do what they hired you to do, only to see you start demanding raises as soon as you get good at it (not that that ever happens...just sayin).
"Don't teach a man to fish, feed yourself. He's a grown man. Fishing's not that hard." - Ron Swanson
It's far more impressive to be the guy that certifies people than the guy who gets a cert.
And that way you can give yourself all the coolest sounding ones.
And if you can convince a few people to buy your cert, it'll not only make you money, but give your certification body even more prestige; because everyone who buys your cert will be hyping it as "really valuable" on /., etc.
Toss the certs & the 'job' out the door, start your own business. Ask me again in 2 years & I'll let you know if it works.
So you are saying that certifications are actually bad thing? ... You won't hire anyone that has certifications, is it so that since you do not have any (assuming, since so negative act against certifications), you are afraid that someone (with real reasons to get the certifications) might be better than you?
Yes, I agree, certifications alone means nothing, but to have something to proof that those certifications are 'real' and just proves that the person applying has all needed knowledge, you still ditch them?
Anyone using a URL shortener outside of a twitter feed is either an idiot or a troll.
I'll never forget a temp job I got 5 or 6 years ago. I had maybe 6 mos experience and a 2 year CCNA course on my resume (I had not completed CCNA at that point) Got a call from a HR lady who really needed people, like, right now for a temp job in DC. She was reluctant though because she said she wasn't sure that I had enough experience to do the job. (luckily I'm a decent talker, and they really needed people.) The job was to do, and I'm not exagerating, unpack Dell monitors and hook them into the power supply / PC. No checking the computer, new monitor, blue port, move on. I can't complain, the job paid good and it wasn't really hard work. I was one of those "certs are useless" people until that day.
What kind of job do you want?
This post expresses my opinion, not that of my employer. And yes, IAAL.
Do you really want to work for someone who hires based on certificates?
A certificate lets an employer know what you once knew - perhaps only for a couple of hours. A degree not only tells an employer something about what you once learned but the type of degree, results and institution (school) also tells them about how you learn and how you think. That is why a degree can be beneficial.
As someone who has sat on both sides of the interview panel, the good interviewers will test the candidate's claimed credentials. It becomes clear pretty quickly as to who knows there stuff and who doesn't.
Just make sure you know your stuff as presented on your resume. If you're overlooked because you don't have a certificate, you didn't want to work there.
Screw that. Pass the bar, and be assured of employment (real employment, as in a career instead of a job) for the rest of your life.
Even a CISSP means jack these days, all it means is that you get to duke it out among the other guys with the CISSP certs for the crumbs left over that the H-1Bs have not taken.
Other than a law degree, I do notice people with H-1B "certs" always get the plum positions in most companies.
then buy a Life Experience Degree or push for a trade system for IT.
With HR is just box checking then any degree may work.
You are filtering out good people.
I put them on my resume. Mainly because it wont hurt and it keeps HR and the headhunters happy. Does that mean I am a jackass that doesn't know anything because I got them, regardless if I owned my own I.T. business as a contractor? That is like saying you do not need a computer science degree to write simple scripting code, therefore every Unix admin who has a CS degree must somehow be incompetent.
Most competent I.T. folks put them on their resume. If they do not then I assume they do not love their job or their previously employer did not give them the tools they needed to succeed. I view it as incompetence. Not because they need that MCSE or CISCO cert but because they agreed that it was not needed and ok to be under certified or the candidate refuses to better themselves.
You can learn a lot with certain certifications that you never know about. Windows 2008 for example has many new features that I had no clue about, explained by a MCSE trainer. It can help if you are already competent.
http://saveie6.com/
What will impress potential employers and be most likely to help land a decent job for someone who doesn't have a degree, but knows how to troubleshoot and can do a bit of programming if needed?"
I remember this place many years ago.. The choice you have now is which direction to go that will make you happy..is it money or is it self fulfillment.. it is not what certs to get my friend..good luck.
...if you are working for consultancy or reseller, which works as a partner. Typically, as the number of certified people a company has, the higher their partner status goes and that means, if nothing else, discounts => employer gets a better margin on the stuff they resell.
I have a CCIE, and if I go to a Cisco shop it pretty much means "hire me, and even if I don't do anything but stare at the wall all day you are still going to get more money out of this deal (provided you sell at least $X worth of hardware annually)". Same thing can be adapted to other high-level certs out there.
However, be careful. I've known some people who take that CCIE to mean that I don't know a damn thing on how to operate Juniper, HP, Enterasys or Siemens networking gear since I'm "specialized" in Cisco and apparently nothing else fits in my head. This goes double for any of the lower certs. So when you are portraying yourself to a potential employer be sure to somehow convey that you have generic knowledge of the subject matter as well.
So can we discount college degrees too? Sure you do not learn real world experience, but you do learn the theory and basics about a profession and it shows dedication to the employer.
MCSE' tests are hard and those who say they are easy never took them. They are adaptive, which means as soon as you make a wrong answer it keeps asking you things related to the last question. I am not saying you can walk right in and work. But, if you passed all the MCSE and CISCO exams you can tell the new employee you need x.y, and z done and they will probably know what you are talking about and can use some tools to do the job. Maybe not perfect, but enough to start an entry level career.
The question is where do you start? YOu need experience somewhere and volunteering at GeekSquad looks pretty embarasing on a resume.
http://saveie6.com/
If you want to get into IT management (operations management) then an ITIL qualification will be a big asset on your resume. I would recommend doing the ITIL v3 Foundations and then pick a couple of the intermediate-level capability courses depending on where your interests lie.
When management says they want to professionalize their IT services, they mean they require education, experiance AND certifications. This is the current trend in IT. For entry level positions, A+/Net+/Security+ is what you should have on your resume. For networking positions, the CCNA/CCNP Cisco track is the way to go. CCNA/CCDP if you want to be in network design. CCSP for security (CCISP from ISC also). Any other Cisco is gravy. For field techs, OS specialists, etc., MCSE will get you a leg up. At the very least take ONE MS test to get your MCSP. If you have a specialty you are aiming for, of course, go for any certs in that area. IT Project management is getting huge, so Project+ is good for entry level. PMAS, PMP, CAPM are the biggies.
A few things to take away from this:
1. I am talking about the certs hiring authorities look for; what is best for your career, not your professional development.
2. From looking above you can see that specialization is in. Focus on what you want, but keep your education broad for options.
3. Certs are not "cake" or "worthless". They're just generic compared to specific skills and experience you have.
4. Profit!
Dont bother with certifications. Usually I would have suggested getting comptia A+ Net+ Linux+ sort of certifications. Except Comptia ended the lifetime certifications and now limit it them to 5 years. Which makes it completely worthless to get.
Which pretty much leaves only the elite certifications that like 500 people in the world have kind of thing. CSSIP, CCIE, and a couple others.
Instead experience and know-how is far better. If you are a programmer... program something that's public. If you're a cracker... get a couple 0days. If you are a network admin... go build a bunch of vms for different servers, openldap, postfix, etc etc. Put that stuff on your resume.
you wouldn't have to ask.
I won't hire anyone who puts things like "certifications" on their resume
With arbitrary filtering rules such as that you have a bright future in HR.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
H1-B, cos US grads no engineers, anymore.
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
Sorry if that's bad news. A degree is the most respected qualification out there. When I was going through uni, I scoffed at the mundane nature of the material they were teaching me. Joked about how I could get better value using it as toilet paper. 10 years later, it hit me like a brick. I was building 3rd normal form databases. Referential Integrity was a term I understood. I could build components with Lazy Evaluation, and I knew why I was doing it.
Getting a degree also tells prospective employers that you're a finisher. You don't just start stuff and bail when it gets scary. You don't give up on a project because parts of it are hard or unpleasant. I know some employers who don't care what degree you've got, as long as you've got one.
If you want an employer's respect, there is no quick and easy way to win it. You have to do the really hard stuff to prove that you can do the really hard stuff.
Good luck.
That is the problem. Most shops have a hiring process that cares more about the pieces of paper, forcing candidates to slap the CCIE, CNE, CCIE, BOFH, BDSM, TL;DR stuff after their names. For a HR rep, they wouldn't even stop to cross check the cert IDs they have. It just means the resume stays on the desk and actually makes it to the tech people.
Here is the Scylla and Charybdis of job hunting: The clued people will see the certs and toss the resume as someone who doesn't have experience other than taking tests. However, to get to the clued people, in most companies, one has to pass the HR droids. They ogle at the alphabet soup of letters, and go "ooo, here is our candidate", passing the resume on, while experienced candidates they look at the resume, go "well, he did run this, this, and this... but he doesn't have any paperwork, so he really hasn't maintained his career. Better off with someone with pieces of paper."
Of course, the best way to bypass that BS is to have contacts, so the hiring process consists of "Well, you got me home after I was passed out in the bushes after that party, so you are hired."
As a developer I mostly focus on MCPD's for whatever area I'm working on. .Net or Sharepoint. I then fill in MCTS's in the gaps for technologies like SQL Server and Biztalk.
http://www.microsoft.com/learning/en/us/certification/mcts.aspx
For system engineers there are specific exams too.
http://www.microsoft.com/learning/en/us/certification/mcitp.aspx
PMP is also a standard cert for management. I think most consultants/programmers should take this to understand the basics of how a project is put together.
http://www.pmi.org/Certification/Project-Management-Professional-PMP.aspx
You can't beat saving a life!
Some companies love certs, some could care less. Your best bet is to get certs that match your skills. For example, if you are a exchange guru, get an exchange cert. It's the best route for two reasons. One, it's easy to get certified w/ products you know. Two, you can actually answer the questions people are going to ask you because you have said cert on your resume. If you are interested in something, like exchange, don't get the cert to "learn about it." and have it on your resume. Even M$ tell you not to do this :D Your supposed to learn about it, get solid w/ it, then get the cert. Anyway, the only truly respected cert I can think of is the CCIE. People who have a CCIE tend to be fairly solid. Obviously this is due to the testing process. As for the rest of them, to many people cheat which destroys the value of it.
That being said back to the companies that love certs. They are typically going for a partner level tier. For example to be a gold level M$ partner you need a certain number of employees w/ X number of certs. In that case if you have a huge boat of certs you will be valuable to the company. Also in some cases, like Citrix, you need to have a certified employee to get support, or other various things, so it maybe an absolute requirement.
Most posts so far insist that certs are useless, well I would only say that you can lie about your professional experience (I have found this while interviewing people) but you can't lie about your certifications.
I really find hard to believe that in a constrained job market people are not find it useful to demonstrate they are keeping up to date with technology .
A lot of the posts above seem to be from programmers, and maybe on that field certain are non existent, but for DBAs, SysAdmins and in some areas of networking, more and more you won't get an interview if you don't have certs.
As for answering the question, it really depends what your field is. Checking jobs sites should make clear which ones are relevant to your personal circumstances.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
It's got to be the most valuable and sought-after certification I can think of.
I met a guy mid-90s who was a university dropout working as a security guard. Clever lad, though, mucking about with computer music in his spare time and reading fairly heavy books during the boring parts of his guard shifts. I last saw him about 10 years later. He had more-or-less all the Cisco certifications, including some of the rare and hard-to-get ones, plus quite a bit of experience and was making huge amounts of money as a freelance setter-up of government and corporate networks or pieces thereof.
The only other people I know who are heavily certified and seem to do very well financially are Oracle DBAs.
if you are in the neighbourhood (vancouver, bc) and want my opinion or a job then send your resume to:
jobs@myamigo.ca
spanish language not required but a definitive asset ;-)
Insane. Most people are you know.
Why is it that most of the people that I encounter seem to have been shat from the Sphincter of Mediocrity?
be an entrepreneur and become the employer everyone panders to with cert, degs and experience. while they work for you - you enjoy all your money.
i've mostly gotten interviews because i've been to a fairly well known uni, got a masters qualificaiton and i've worked in top name companies.. that said, there's other ways in -- if a company cant get the people with the 'normal' qualifications then you can get an interview if you can convince someone in the dept you can do the job.. how to convince ? depends what job you want. build up a portfolio of relevant certifications and experience in that area.. so a degree is ideal, if that's not viable, certifications, open source, maintain a network for a local charity organisation, whatever is relevant is good.. people dont want to hire potential, they want to hire someone who has gotten results close to where their current problem or pain is. So you need to talk the talk and have a number of concrete elements that demonstrate you've done it rather than thought about it
You mean, be part of the problem, not part of the solution.
Not to feed the trolls, but:
It is depressing that that is the only qualification for office. And it shows on both sides of the talent pool.
"Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
For someone with a degree in another field (like science) who is also quite computer savvy, but doesn't have a degree in computers, are there any quick and relatively painless certifications that could be obtained to kind of boost the resume?
MCITP would be good if you are into Microsoft. CISSP would be great to get if you want to get into IT Security and would really make you stand out. If you want to be DOD 8570 compliant you can get your Security+ and Network+ for easy starters. It all depends on what direction you want to go. Figure that out and proceed accordingly.
Certs are probably the best signal I have for hiring. A negative signal. The certs are the one of the few things that show up in the resume keyword statistical analysis that show "not a good hire".
But then again, I'm not looking to hire monkeys.
Spent 100 hours writing a new "fart" app, put it on the app store, see 10+ mio downloads, and you can use that to get to an interview.
Get a degree. Or just sell your experience the right way. And believe in your self.
Do not try to be too modest when writing the job application form. I have been sitting through many interviews where all the listed skills where actually areas of interests that the applicant thought sounded interesting, and would like to learn about. It is better the exaggerate a bit than being too modest, as long as it is within safety limits (i.e. you know enough to quickly become proficient).
A degree might help in some areas. But experience beats education for most jobs. Then you can always get something like a CISSP certification, which people has great respect for, but really is a trivial test, testing little knowledge in many areas (Non-IT folks find it hard though)
Some people had already said it, it depends on the area you are in. But if you are in Asia, especially in China, get as many degrees and certificates as possible. A lot of people, including well-known people (such as a former GM of Microsoft China), had posed as expert in certain fields by showing a piece of paper from a degree mill. You would be amazed how people attach so much importance to a piece of paper, regardless of your experiences, and regardless of your previous achievements.
ps: My password on /. has somehow been reset after I came back from a three-week absence (and I swear, I didn't do it), and I can't login with my old ID any more, an ID that I've been using since 1997 :( I never login on /. on any computer except on my Linux laptop, and I keep my password database on a usb key, attached to my keychain, which is on me all the time. Hm...
it's not always HR people being unrealistic, alot of times they are just matching candidates based on criteria they are given. I don't blame the lady, she was given the task of finding candidates with these qualifications and what the job says you do and what you actually do are commonly 2 different things (especially on temp work.) i think alot of times it's just to weed out the potential negative / lazy candidates. let's be honest, if you have xx amount of knowledge in a certain field it's pretty lazy to not get your A+, net+, CCNA, etc. all fields, not just IT have various qualifications.
Reason is I think many tech types misunderstand who and what certifications are for. They aren't for you, or your peers. I don't go showing off my certs, I don't sign my e-mails with them, or that kind of shit. They are for the managers that hire people.
While it is popular, particularly among Linux people, to hate on the MCSE, in my experience many jobs want one, and some require it. Managers like it, that is what it is for.
So that you think it is a joke may not be all that relevant.
Also I fail to see how it would be a joke and a CCNA would not. The CCNA is not a difficult cert to get. Hardest thing I had on the test was that the router simulation they use is Boson NetSim and it doesn't implement all the commands of real IOS (and I should add I still passed easily on the first try).
If you want to get a cert for yourself, just as a guided learning experience, then get whatever interests you. Hell you don't even have to take the test, you can just study the materials and learn it if you like.
However if you are getting a cert for professional advancement or to get a job, the consideration then is what management likes, in particular the management in the area you are interested in. It doesn't matter how much of a "joke" it is. The idea isn't to advance your skills, it is to have something to help your career.
What that is could change over time too. For example I have my A+. I doubt anyone would care anymore, I've been doing IT for about 12 years now and do higher level stuff. However when I got it, in 1999, I was looking to be able to get lower level tech type jobs and it mattered. In particular, going for student computer support jobs on campus, it put me ahead of most students that had no certification. It was worth getting.
These days were I to get something, I would actually probably look at the MCITP, the MCSE replacement, since Windows support is a major part of what I do. I wouldn't get it because I think it would help me be better at my job, I'd get it because it would make managers more likely to hire me for that sort of job.
LPI (LPIC1or 2 ) is a good one to have for Linux, for MS - MCTS for server and Win 7, a CCNA is good if you work in a Cisco shop or plan to, but don't get it just to have it. Download VirtualBox or VMWare ESXi so you can practice in a virtual environment, even after you get your certification, you will learn a lot more from problems you solve on your own, than prepping for exams. GNS3 is a good simulator for Cisco routers, not as good as the real thing, but its a start.
Stick with the entry level certs for now and don't waste your time on CompTIA certs.
outside of a degree, i got certifications in HTML, JAVASCRIPT, APACHE and PERL. the first 3 are worthless and noone cares about PERL as everything's done in JAVA now. so i'd say JAVA.
I am genuinely disappointed with the "certifications-don't matter" response from Slashdot crowd. Certifications do help; the certificate itself may not get you the job but the knowledge you gain from preparing for the cert exam will certainly benefit you.
Eight years ago when my got my RHCE, none of my employers knew what RHCE was; but the hands-on knowledge of Linux and networking, which RHCE largely covers helped me in my actual job. Even while working as a Windows sysadmin in a company, the RHCE knowledge of networking and user management helped. With the basic concepts in place, you will realize that different OS platforms, network equipments from different manufacturers etc have just different ways of doing the same thing. I know many good sysadmins who don't possess any certs, but who have the habit of learning new things beyond their job. This is where a certification helps; passing the exam is not important but studying for the exam is.
I would suggest you look for a certification (whether it is IT or programming) that has an in-depth coverage of the subject, rather than industry acceptance.
when i was employing people (some 10>15 years ago), the main criteria was experience, references, and finally a degree. most employers DON'T want to spend time / money training you or updating your theoretical degree learning to real world practicality. a good reference from a reputable employer is worth a great deal more than a 'general' degree - especially so in 'niche' it....
Get a degree in cocksucking and ass-kissing.
It's the same reason I refuse to hire anyone who graduated highschool; in fact I usually prefer people who misspell half their CV, it shows they haven't wasted their time on useless things like educating themselves and have instead focused on what's important: Experience!
I took this path (from hardware to desktop to network) many years ago and am pretty happy with it -
based on your question it doesn't sound like you're starting from square one but doing hardware work - you take that hardware work and the experience you get with the desktop software and get the Microsoft equivlant or thereabouts - then you can sell yourself to an employer as a guy who knows both, even if you only have minimial experience in the cert category
If you chose to go on to networking you'll have a much easier time with the GNS3 simulator that runs Cisco IOS - but I'd say get certified or entry in the field you want to hop up to next
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ah honey, we're all resplendent - Bill Mallonee
I am interested if you can do the job and turn me a profit.
You need experience to do that. A degree adds to your experience value, but just a little.
If you can *prove* that you have worked in your relevent field in relation to the position you are applying I would look at you.
A degree is part of your education, your education is the foundation of your experience accumulation, but it is just a part of the whole.
Generally if I have 2 greenhorns side by side, if one has a degree it is more likely he/she has more experience than the other.
But ONLY when comparing greenhorns. If you are a greenhorn get some experience or get a degree.
Though getting relevent experience can be a chicken and egg scenario, it may be easier to get a degree first to give you a foot up.
But most people have degrees these days, so your degree is generally not enough.
Unfortunately in some businesses the human resources dept. may soley use certification to filter job canditates to fullfill a position.
This is because they deal with an overwhelming number of applicants, and are looking for a sorting method.
A lot of potential talent is skipped by "statistical" filtering. I make a point in my business that this should not happen.
Finishing a degree doesnt tell me that you can stick at something.
I know when you can stick at something when *I* see it.
University is a exercise in self indulgence, information is delivered on a golden spoon and you just have to absorb then regurgitate, it doesnt tell me much about how you really work.
If you dont have a degree or experience but want a stable job.. maybe you should become an employer.
It is hard work, and it will prove to yourself whether or not you can really stick at something.
It also has it's perks. My job is very stable, and I cannot lose my job unless I fire myself.
my2c
your potential employer
What "best" means for certification would depend on your objectives, I suppose.
Here's a nonobvious alternative: get yourself certified as "not mentally competent". This may not be as difficult as you think, although canceling the certification later could be quite a challenge...
If you're certified incompetent in a civilized country, a bureaucrat will be appointed to look after your finances (at no charge to you), ensure you get every bit of welfare you might be entitled to, and defend you at public expense against fraud or serious rip-off attempts. You can still work, if you want, without greatly reducing your welfare entitlement (amazing what a certificate can do). However, you now have a license to kill/maim/etc. without fear of punishment since you are not responsible for your actions. Some places don't even remove passports or driving licenses from such people.
Frighteningly, I knew one such person in Canada. A sociopathic, psychopathic, manic-depressive, evil genius, and unrestrained by the legal impediments which would limit a sane person's actions. Acts of violence repeatedly went unpunished by the criminal system, and attempts for redress were rejected by the civil courts. The legal system was trumped by the certificate of incompetence.
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
A certificate or a dozen will get you in the door. You'll need more than that to land the job - but you'll never get to the interview if you don't have the certification that's on their checkoff list. A+ is good, as are the various Microsoft certifications. But don't go spending money on these certifications unless they're ones your target employers are looking for. Once you get past these hurdles, you're going to have to impress the HR people and the manager you'd be working for with your positive attitude, your work ethic, and your willingness to kiss the boss's ass. Here's what else is important: age, your skin color, and your social network. Yes, there are anti-discrimination laws, but in the real world it makes a huge difference. If you're over 50 and non-white, give up now; you'll never find a job. Enen if you're white it's unlikely that any corporation will hire you. And if you can't make contact with the hiring manager, nothing else will matter. Make contacts in the industry you're interested in and use them to find employers that might be interested in you.
Birth. Ideally from within the USA.
When I graduated with my CS PhD several years ago, the first job that I landed was 95K, which is a bit low in today's market.
When this crap hits the front page I know this is an 'industry' site and not where I get news from.
It might differ, but in northern europe these things seems utterly worthless. If all you have is a certificate/diploma you are not even considered if you are the sole applicant. If you want a properly paid, interesting job within it you will need a bachelor or masters degree.
To quote a friend who routinely interviews people for medium- to high level positions in an international hosting/consultancy firm : "When someone shows up with a certification they paid for out of their own pocket, your mind tends to go 'So why did you feel the need to get this piece of paper?'"
If you know your stuff then a certification isn't going to help you prove it. If DON'T know your stuff, on the other hand - you might very well be able to find some fool who will look at the paper rather than ask you the right questions during the interview(s).
If you want to do something with your time and money to climb the career ladder, do something in academia rather than paying for some course+certification. Even if it is totally irrelevant to what you see yourself working with.
You see it's perfect ! It's AAA+ collateral.
You see : the number of cases brought against people is roughly proportional to the number of lawyers available ...
And the number of lawyers needed is roughly proportional to TWICE that number
You see the beauty ?
So the number of lawyers is a monotonically increasing function. You know, like house prices. Maybe we can "bundle" multiple lawyers into CDO's ? I'm sure there's money to be made there.
Pass the bar, and be assured of employment (real employment, as in a career instead of a job) for the rest of your life.
I don't know what the situation is like in the US, but, here in England, we have far more prospective lawyers (students with their degrees, conversion course where necessary, and vocational courses completed) looking for jobs than there are jobs available.
Even after securing the first job - the training contract - there are more qualified solicitors (I do not know about the situation for barristers) than there are roles available.
I've read a huge number of application forms, covering letters and CVs for friends and relations, for different levels of legal work, and, within that, there have been some great candidates - people who would make great lawyers in practice, in my opinion, but the work just is not there. On one level, of course, it just means that they are not good enough, if the assessment for "good enough" is one of whether they managed to get the job or not, but it does, perhaps, demonstrate that simply having the qualifications is insufficient, and no guarantee of employment.
I count myself very fortunate to have qualified when I did; it might not have been easy to secure a training contract back then, but it was considerably easier than it is today.
what do you think of the mass of people on this comment board saying that ceritifications are worthless?
You have to define what you mean by "IT" before anybody can give you any decent advice.
Your question is like saying: "I'd like to become a scientist. What college courses should I study in order for me to get a job as a Scientist?"
To be blunt, if you're really just an IT person, you don't need any certifications. IT is the low rung on the Software, Systems, and Network Engineering ladder, as you go up you have to specialize. Do you want to stay focused on hardware? Then get cert'd on the platforms you expect to work with. Software, pretty much the same thing. Networking is a little more available, most employers want a Cisco certification at a bare minimum, but certs on other platforms won't hurt.
Whatever you do, do not go to a college and get a degree. Trade school or Vo-tech institute can be fine, but Universities are focused on CS, not IT, and CS will not do you any good at all in any IT position.
Once upon a time, universities were for the top 5-10%.
Now, in the UK, university is for about 50% of people, not really determined by entrance qualifications since these have been corrupted by all the exam boards being sold to the publishers.
The UK is full of people with meaningless pieces of paper. Of course you're going to get lots of people who look qualified on paper.
As deblau stated, "What kind of job do you want?"
If you're applying for a Solaris & EMC shop, look no further than your Oracle Solaris certification and EMC backup/storage track. However, the certification only demonstrates that you can attend a testing centre and answer questions based upon specific scenarios or a subset of your knowledge. What you really need is experience (I know, chicken/egg,) a willingness to learn and an employer that's willing to invest in you (and not offshore your job to a heavily certified, but functionally useless graduate in Hyderabad.) YMMV.
Off course a degree is useful on finding a job. After all a degree means education which leads to knowledge. Knowledge that may other employees on the same field and maybe in higher position might not have.
But... yep there is a but here. In my opinion workers, managers and others don’t give a sheet about degrees. A man who runs a business and also has respect for him self should know that degrees DON'T count. They need experience, knowledge and skills that should distinguish you from other employees.
You surely need a degree that will get you some general knowledge about your field of work you are interested in, say a local university. After this get to work. Do something that would guarantee your worker that you know what you are going to do for this job. Guarantee him that you are not going to disappointed him. Degrees don’t do that.
//LIFE WOULD BE EASIER IF I HAD THE SOURCE CODE!
I am 40. I did not finish college. I got into IT in 1992. I started getting certifications in 1995 (Windows 95 certified!). Since then I have gotten many certs and with a specialty in security my highest levels are my SANS GCIH and ICS2 CISSP. Not a single one of these certs had made a huge difference in my skills but I look back to 1992 and the guys I worked with then. All the ones I still see occasionally (which is most of the group of 15) I make double the next highest paid guy. This is mostly luck no doubt (low 6 figures) but having the certs definitely gave me an advantage.
I recommend finding a bit of specialization (storage, security, etc) and finding the industry standard certs. If you have the ability within your company I strongly recommend legal discovery. This field is growing by leaps and bounds and companies are throwing money at it in a big way.
As far as adding value (and therefore commanding a better hourly rate) the "cert du jour" is arguably the PMP (Project Management Professional) from the Project Management Institute.
As the recently popularized joke goes:
Q: What does and engineer call a PMP?
A: Boss.
Of course, YMMV ...
See you space cowboy
The certifications mean nothing to me. Your experience is meaningful, but the certifications do little more than prove that you can read (which is a prerequisite, don't get me wrong). I've had to endure dozens of highly-certified befuddled employees hired by our organization -- too many to see any value in the certs. Practical job experience, adaptability, and evidence of problem-solving skills are the only thing I look for.
It's worse than that. The 'everyone must go to university' mentality from government (starting with the Conservatives, exacerbated by Labour) has meant that a lot of really great vocational institutions became third-rate universities. Now, instead of offering world-class vocational qualifications, they offer worthless academic ones. And I'm not just talking about things like plumbing: one of the best aerospace engineering courses in the world used to be a heavily practical course at a polytechnic, which has since become a 'university' and now produces graduates no better than any other second or third tier university. The curriculum has changed to be more in line with an academic course, and it's lost all of the things that made it good in the first place (at least, according to people I know trying to hire engineers to design aircraft).
There's nothing wrong with 50% of the population going in to higher education, the problem is that a large chunk of them are in make-work degree schemes, where they are taught nothing of any value to them.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
i hear some rather important black dood had problems getting one, so it must be really important
First of all it depends on your interests. It won't make sense to become a Sun Certified Java Programmer if you don't plan to work in the Java field in futur.
Instead of getting certificates I would consider to improve in other areas:
o make a course in negotiation in business talks etc.
o make a course in talking in front of a larger audience to be able to represent yourself better or make an interesting presentation
o learn how to make better job applications: that can include to focus with your relevant skills directly on the job you want (don't add Apache Webserver stuff to an Microsoft job) but add a good resume of your previous work. Emphasize what you did there and summarize the used tools / languages / environments etc.
No one really cares if you have a certificate in XYZ and your resume clearly shows you never worked in that area. And no one cares if you don't have that certificate if your resume shows you worked the last 10 years intensively in that field.
angel'o'sphere
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
Get experience and a basic degree BS is good enough and can be in anything. Certs only mean you were a sucker and paid the time and money to get the worthless things.
the ONLY jobs that certs mean anything is entry level. You are not looking to "move up" to another entry level position are you?
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Last I heard (a couple months ago), that was about the same situation in the mid-west of the U.S. They graduate, and years later don't have a job yet.
And those that do have work may not even be getting paid for it.
No, the average person will use a lawyer when they must, otherwise they try to do what they can first.
Hawaiian Birth! Of Course!!! ;-)
If you have time to study, then spending it on certificates is a bad way to spend it.
From my experience, an employer wants to hire someone who has been doing the exact job that he is looking for, in another company, and for longer than 3 years. An employer wants to invest nothing in training you, just teaching you the company's internal policies will be enough cost for him. To employees, having a Certificate means you can use Braindumps, and having a University degree means you can study the books and know the theory for some topic.
If you want to break into a field, get an entry-level job, do not mind the non-decency, because you will find none in entry-level jobs, stick there for a couple of years, study all you can on your job's topic, and then move on, which if played smartly will also mean moving up in job decency.
Everything you say is true, but I still can't quite work out who stood to benefit from it. Why did Thatcher rename all the polys? Why was NL obsessed with increasing numbers of people in "university" rather than, as you suggest, increasing skilled labour in general?
I see that it is possible to create lots of pointless degrees, pay per head, and make lots of departments happy with high in-take for programmes which comprise little useful work. But that only works after the whole system has been established. Who planned it out in the first place, and why? It is often said that it was one way of massaging unemployment figures through the '80s, like telling men in their 50s who were able to work to sign up for Invalidity Benefit. But there are so many ways of misleading the population on unemployment and it is not like hearing a number on TV is going to change the average person's voting behaviour, so I am not satisfied with that answer.
Put more bluntly: which group stood to gain financially by the decision? I could see an argument that the intention was to create a country which lacks essential skills as an excuse to both shipping entire industries abroad and opening borders, reducing labour costs. Even if you want to keep people in something to stop a Madrid where suddenly everyone sees that there really isn't a need for so many young workers at home, why would you keep them doing something which is so clearly pointless? Why not exportable skills at the very least? Would the UK not benefit from skilled emigrants sending money back home?
There's this nagging conspiracist in my head which says that recent governments have wanted the UK to fail: they're represented by increasingly mediocre individuals who are aware of how tenuous their position is and who feel threatened by their own countrymen. Thatcher was no conservative and Blair no laborista; they may each have made some short-term contributions to the country coincident with ostensible ideals but for the long term they engaged in very similar destructive behaviour.
Of course you're going to get lots of people who look qualified on paper.
I'd see a good degree (and conversion course, where applicable), with relevant subjects, presented on a well-constructed CV as very much the starting point*, rather than a determining factor. But, I agree with you - my point was rather to say that simply getting a law degree is unlikely to guarantee employment over here, and your response emphasises this.
However, the people to whom I was referring had good academics, a range of relevant work experience and came across well on paper - no stupid typos., badly-phrased paragraphs or the like. Of course, a paper-based judgment has its limitations, and, in interview phases, I'd expect to be disappointed with at least a few candidates who looked good on paper, but I was surprised that these individuals were not getting interviews, as, five years ago, I'd have expected them to have received many, based on the same CV.
* Perhaps to contradict myself, someone with a relevant / interesting but less conventional background is likely also to catch my eye. One of my personal bugbears is the lack of lawyers working in the technology / communications space who understand the technological and societal impacts, for example - yet another indication that a degree is, in itself, insufficient.
You mean in the same way we don't get taught what a verb or noun is when we first learn to speak as children we almost grasp it intuitively after a while? Come to think of it I taught my self programming simply by copying code out of an old GWBasic book and just observed the results as I went along. Wasn't long before I wrote my own code and I was 12 or 13 when I started.
I work primarily with Linux, with networking being a second field. When I was put in the position of looking for a new job, having an RHCE was a door-opener and is part of why I have the great job I have. Today I still receive emails and phone calls because of that cert, even though I haven't been active on the headhunter sites in a while. As others have mentioned, a CCNA is also valuable. Of course, on the high end, a CCIE opens doors and pocketbooks. But it's much tougher to achieve. What you want to look for is a certification that is tough enough to get that many good people fail. In other words, you want it to be a true proof of your knowledge of that technical area. And yeah, people find all sorts of ways to pass tests without actually knowing the material well, but there are a few certs that are more respected in the IT world than others. And if you're serious about being certified in something, try first for something you're already good at and enjoy. If you're weak in networking, don't spend too much time trying for something like CCNA. On the other hand, if your passion is in networking, get that CCNA and don't stop there.
The Thatcher and New Labour governments both had social mobility as a buzzword. Everyone must be middle class. Having an academic degree was a sign of being a member of the middle class, while vocational qualifications were seen as working class. By making everyone get an academic degree, they helped push the idea that people were moving up in the world under these governments. It doesn't really require malice, just mediocre minds running the country and focussing on short-term personal gain without fully understanding (or caring about) the consequences of their actions.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
If you aren't part of the solution, you are part of the precipitate silly.
Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.
The most logical next step for most A+ certifications is to get a Net+ and then Security+ certification. This assumes that you will remain in a technical track and continue along CompTIA. The security side of the business is becoming more and more lucrative mainly because of the larger infrastructure that needs protecting and the greater sophistication of technology and attacks. There are also entire tracks in various security methodologies, like Certified Ethical Hacker (CEH) or Certified Information System Security Professional (CISSP). There are other training programs (e.g. non-security) that may be more or less useful depending upon your specific job function. Examples include the tracks offered by Microsoft and Cisco. There are also modern technologies that are of great value, such as cloud computing or virtualization).
Birth. It makes everything else a lot easier to get once you've been born.
PS: No qualifications here but, officially 11 years in the industry now as in, from my first job.
Certifications are a means of letting a prospective employer, or your colleagues know that they can talk to you at a certain technical level, and you should be able to converse on the content of the certification. For example, a Microsoft MCITP: Enterprise Admin should (emphasis on should) be able to talk about Active Directory, DNS, Windows Permissions, etc etc. You having this particular certification gives me the confidence that I should be able to talk to you about these topics. That is all.
I have to agree that passing some exams does not make a good engineer. It is the experience that comes from implementing knowledge learned during certification and/or on the job that gets the engineering accolades. In fact, often times, people will sit a certification to consolidate and complete their knowledge on a particular topic, as the experience they gain from real world applications cannot always provide a complete picture of a technology.
As for which certifications? That really depends on what you're wanting to do in IT. I guess I can only really draw from my own experience as a Solutions Architect. I love designing, implementing and troubleshooting IT Infrastructure. That is, everything. Networks, servers, virtualization, operating systems, SANs, etc.
To work in that vein, you need to be able to prove to both employers and clients that you are the right person to be talking to. Certifications are a quick way to convey that. I presently hold MCITP: EA, Messaging, CCNP, VCP4, Citrix CCEE. These cover all the competencies that I work with on a daily basis and that, coupled with experience, give customers the confidence that I know what I'm talking about.
I work as a network admin, and can tell you from a network/systems break/fix sort of perspective, certs are the best thing next to actual experience. Even arguably better than a degree. Apologies to those who blew 4 years and $80,000.
Programming is a different beast though, certs for them are worthless and a degree is critical.
A Bachelor of Science is a very desired and marketable certification.
I have been in the IT security field for a couple of decades and held a CISSP for many years, and I will not be renewing it. The value has become so diluted that it is simply not worth the effort of maintaining it anymore. Experience has shown me that only vendor certifications (Cisco, of course) really bear any weight among my clients anymore, specifically CCDE and CCIE Security.
"I've been working in the IT field for several years now..."
OK, stop. No certifications. If you're good, then your experience should be enough. Certifications get you a foot in the industry door, and experience (and skill, and hard work, and competence) get you the other 99% of the way.
That said, there a small number of certifications that carry more weight than the paper their printed on. The CISSP and CCIE have long been considered difficult enough to get that only dedicated and talented professionals carry them. Don't know if that's still the case.
"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
You used to need a birth certificate to be President of the U.S. but in recent years it's kinda fallen out of popularirty.
The problem with Certification is that in order to get it you need to Pass a rigorous test, full of knowledge questions. U.S. Education doesn't focus on tests like that so a lot of Americans who take the Certification fail not due to lack of skills but because they are unaccustomed taking tests. Other countries thrive on these tests and the students know how to study for those test and pass them easily. So if your company is open to H-1B you will get a lot more people from other countries with the Certification then without it.
Before you start dissing the U.S. Education System, Ill give an anecdotal true story, while I was in college there was a Chinese student in my Computer Science classes who always messed up the curve on the tests. Being the A in a group of B-s, however when it comes to projects he didn't understand any of the concepts taught to him, Senior year he asked me "What is the command in C to do decimal numbers". At some other point he was asking me why American Students don't read, I tried to explain to him that we prefer to learn by doing vs. just reading, we do read but we read when we find a gap in our knowledge.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
I think certs do help and I prefer the big name certs like COMP-TIA because a lot of large corporations participate and sponsor them. If you want to work for a small company, then it probably does not matter as much. With most of a BSMIS complete, a Network+, and some Apple certs, I was able to get hired on with two other folks from my team that had consulted for a large bank for 4 years. I don't know the exact reason, but I was able to negotiate 20k more than my closest co-worker when we were hired. None of us had full degrees and I was the only one with any certs. COMP-TIA recommends A+, Network+, then security+ in that order. I may be back in the job market soon and it's a lot easier to grab a couple certs for things I already know then to deal with finishing my degree via a bunch of bullshit classes that cost a lot more. If you have a degree to finish, a lot of colleges will let you transfer over certs for credits, so you can sometimes do double-duty with certs. My college will give me 6 credit hours for an A+ and then I get to add A+ to my resume right away while I'm chipping away at the degree. I also recommend certs that will stand without having to take update tests- this will save you money and pain in the future. I will also say that although I had done a lot of networking prior to getting my Net+, I learned a lot in the process and it helped me stand out on our team. The info I learned directly applied to the project we we're on and it greatly elevated my status on the team. I was quickly assigned to work directly with our software vendor to design and test enhancements to fix a lot of issues that had been missed originally.
Creationists are a lot like zombies. Slow, but powerful and numerous. And they all want to eat our brains.
I have been working in and around Silicon Valley for several decades now, and in my experience, certificates are generally considered to be products (i.e. something to create and sell along with the technology being developed), not requirements for employment. On the other hand, if you want to be a technician for a widely used and established technology, they can useful in signalling to potential employers that you are not simply making up whatever experience you claim to have, which is apparently a big problem these days.
Look at it this way; there is no certificate you can get (apart from a good resume) for developing new technologies, so they won't mean much to companies that are developing new technologies.
between Qualified and OVERqualified!
There are a Lot of employers that are looking for Skill-sets with experience, but _not_ a certificate, as they want your Skills, but don't want to PAY what they are worth!
I have my MSCE (Win2k Track), A+, Network+, and Cisco Certification. Wound up doing Tier 1 Tech Support for (a large call center/ISP), then putting together an entire curriculum and 2 years teaching the Disabled "Introduction to Computers and the Internet" for $1/hr over my Unemployment Insurance rates...
Now I drive a Truck for a living (for the last 7.5 years).
Add in the little fact that, in order to get the certifications, you have to have all the Correct [Wrong] answers to the questions asked by the testing people. Ask anyone who actually Carries a certification: Most of the answers aren't "Real-World Applicable", but you have to regurgitate them in the correct format to get your certification, then NOT do those things to actually service your client(s), and make money!
Those will get you nice security clearance jobs.
If you have a CISSP (and more importantly, the years of experience to back it up), though, you will always be underutilized. Even in small companies where you can make a difference. Everyone just wants techs these days, not strategists or people who understand how to do things the Right Way[TM]. If you are lucky, however, as you gain rapport you may be able to become that strategist as a lead security analyst in a growing company. You'll have to put up with things that make you cringe for a few years first, though.
Project management is big too. If you understand how to do it right, that mixed with infosec is a nice combo if you can find a company that respects and utilizes it.
Having a degree from an accredited university, as others have stated, is your first step. It doesn't have to be in the field. I don't use my Aerospace degree for a whole lot in my chosen career path, but it showed employers that I could think critically and solve problems when I was first starting out.
The one thing most people don't realize is certs can be extremely valuable if you want to work for a VAR (value added reseller) the vendors require the VARs to have a certain number of engineers with a given cert to maintain the company's relationship level which ultimately affects the level of discounting the VAR gets from the vendor. If you come to an interview with a cert that a VAR needs, that is extremely valuable because that VAR now doesn't have to pay for you to take the class and the test. Also if you want to work for a particular vendor, they look favorably on you having invested in their certs. In general if I had to rank the value of a vendor's cert I would say
Cisco - CCIE especially.
VMware - VCDX is very hard to get as is VCAP. VCP is increasingly common but valuable as the class is a prereq to taking the test.
HP - The ASE especially.
EMC - Increasing popular as EMC is investing more and more in VARs.
Microsoft - Not as valuable these days because so many people hold the cert.
I myself am referred to as a 'home grown' IT guru... been working with PC's since I was 5, everyday, every week, every year. I landed a job at a one of the largest IT companies there is, in fact it's on this page as an advertisement... But I was able to achieve the level I am at, without a degree, and no certifications.
Point being, when I was doing contract work with several other global corporations, I came to a conclusion:
The level and necessary abstract thinking required to produce genuine ideas within the realm of computers, cannot be 'taught'. Nor is there a test (cert) to display such prowess. I have met numerous people who have ump-teen cert's, or even some I've met with a Masters degree, one thing remains the same. Unless they do 'computer stuff' as a hobby and not just a job, I've seen nobody who can 'think outside the box'.
In this day and age, everyone wants to be an authority on 'the proper way' to do things in the computer industry. Also, colleges now are a dime a dozen. So if you truly want to be noticed by employers, work at it. Produce your own products/applications/system designs, record your progress even if the products are not widely used, and present this to employers. Also be sure to remind them of the useless object known as a certification, which expires after several years, thus nullifying your ability to take a test and parrot the information.
I used to have tech contractor recruiters ask me 'how do you tell if someone is worthwhile to hire?' This of course was asked after I was brought on to a contracting company, and they were shocked that I had no degree or certs, but among the executives, and the lowly contractors alike, I earned a great deal of respect because my skills seemed to be unmatched by anyone they had under their employment.
My answer was simple, "Ask them what kind of computer they have. If they are able to tell you the components in their pc (brand/model/ better yet specs) they're worthwhile. If they answer "I have a ", they're not worth your time."
The difference between someone who does computer stuff for a job, versus one who does it as a hobby, the latter actually enjoys the work.
You've got to be kidding. Do you know how many lawyers are unemployed because they think their degree guarantees them a job? No, to be a lawyer nowadays means to start your own firm -- not cheap.
Better to go to med school. Guaranteed jobs, albeit lots of up-front work. Besides, med school includes a lot of memorization -- something more in line with most IT certs than law school tests.
Computing is as much an art as it is engineering and certifications are not well compatible with creative artistry. To be perfectly blunt: the number of lines dedicated to certifications on your resume is inversely proportional to the probability I'll hire you.
I want to see what you've *done*. Work samples show me that. Word choices which reflect a depth of understanding in a given area show me that. A four-year degree shows me that. A certification shows me that you can study for a week or three and then regurgitate the vendor's line. Worse, a certification shows me that you think regurgitating the vendor line is important.
Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
I'm a CCIE at a large company. My certification holds little value for the company and little value for me in my current job. However, the certification proves that I can work hard and learn things and recite them for a test. It means I work well under pressure and I have a quantifiable measure of that skill.
Additionally, as a few others have noted, having a CCIE frequently means that companies will consider hiring me just to get a higher partner status. It's not a bad thing to be in demand, and have some relative security due to a piece of paper. If I want to stay in networking, I'll be significantly more "hirable" than someone without a CCIE. From an employer perspective, I may not be any better (I may be worse) than the other guy, but they'll want to hire me for the other reasons.
For these reasons, I believe that a CCIE increases my net worth and marketability. Ultimately, this is what it's all about, so I consider the hours I spent getting certified as a success.
Disagreeing with me does not mean you get to mod me troll.
I put them on my resume. Mainly because it wont hurt and it keeps HR and the headhunters happy
The best play if you are of the mind that certifications are of minimal importance (I include myself in this group, both when applying and hiring) is to include them, but make them the very last thing on your resume, definitely page 2 of a 2-page resume.
From hell's heart I fstab at /dev/hdc
One of the main reasons the U.S. doesn't graduate engineers is because of H1-B visas making the cost and effort of the degree and the work worth the pay once one gets a job.
Your post demonstrates the other main reason.
There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
Seems to me, the trick is to get experience in a field, then become a lawyer specializing in that field. Because one knows the material, one is more valuable to a firm.
There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
Also worth noting that through the late 80s-90s there was this sense that the future was in computers and business - choosing not to go to university (or at least a college of some sort) was a sign of "dropping out".
Of course, it turned out that we still need plumbers and carpenters and electricians, so now they're making the huge money while I know tons of university-graduated IT pros working call centers.
Around here it's even worse in the medical industry - the government see-saws funding for nurse training wildly, which means we skew from "there are not enough graduates to fill all the positions" to "we don't have enough positions to give all these people jobs".
The poster may be actually asking which technologies should he study. The certification may be his way of demonstrating to himself that he has studied the material thoroughly enough to demonstrate capability in the area.
So the answer of course would be "it depends" What do you want to do, and what do you already do. Look at the difference between "what you do" and "what you want to do" and create a path. It may involve some certification. Joining an online or local group dedicated to the object of your desire. Try to join a open source project that is using or related to what you want to learn. Try to gain real experience in what you want to do (volunteering, training, etc.)
I'm a high school dropout. I have no college under my belt, and only a GED. I'm 23. I do however, have MCITP: Enterprise Administrator, CCNA, and am actively pursuing MCITP: DBA, CISSP, PMP, and RHCE. Am I cert farming? Yes. I'd openly admit it in an interview too. I've forgotten a great deal of what I learned in preparation for my CCNA, and I will likely forget a great deal more about my future certs. What-more, I payed $10,000 in 2010 for cert training, and will drop $6,500 more this year. $16.5k (half my 2010 salary) on certs that I don't yet directly use. Why would I do this? Because it exposes me to new technologies. I could learn it myself, sure; but the certification requirements and training will help me know that I've gotten everything out of it that I need. Quick example: In any 2000 functional level Active Directory domain, a NON-administrator user can add up to 10 computers to the domain by default. I have INTERVIEWED over a dozen people with experience managing domains, and nobody yet has known this. Certs are a tool. Like many other things, they are up for interpretation and can arguably mean nothing. However, if you use them to fuel your passion, and push you in new directions, it doesn't matter what a prospective employer thinks about the individual certs you have, your passion will win you the job.
But clearly you have something better to say...
Keeping in line with your original question "what certifications are most valuably sought after", if you’re looking for a new job or to climb the corporate ladder. Keep in mind that the people that will be reviewing your resume initially are not I.T. or technically trained people. Most HR girls commonly know Microsoft or Cisco certifications. Paper work is only really good for getting the interview and intruth, if your job hunting, thats exactly what you want!
If your looking for a new job or papers for your wall; Concentrate on writing Microsoft exams; mainly because they are well known and you may receive higher pay because of them... keep in mind that its only to help you get the interview. Thats the part that matters when your trying to get in the door. Also focus on Cisco as well. Cisco courses and training will give you higher respect.
your goal in training should be accruing certifications that compliment your current work experience.
And the ONLY certifications worth much really are the higher level Cisco certs and some high end database-type certs.
All the MS, MAC, Linux, lower end Cisco (CCNA/CCNP) certs are all pretty much worthless. Far too many people going to classes/bootcamps/self-study and getting paper certified with no experience.
In IT, experience means more than almost any cert. CCIE is an exception because of the type of testing you have to pass to get it - it's not bootcampable really. You have to really have a clue. Some high end DBA stuff you need to know your stuff, too.
As far as a degree, tho...for most IT jobs (not including management), a degree doesn't make much difference to me.
If 2 candidates are equal in all regards for a position I'm looking to fill, certifications and/or a college degree (4 year or better) I will use as a tiebreaker of sorts.
To everyone suggesting experience is superior to certifications and education, I completely agree. Unfortunately third party head hunting contractors hired by Fortune 500 human resource departments do not.
Your experience, intelligence and charisma will impress the hiring manager and might even get you the job, but.. you never got to meet him/her because you got rejected by the asshole third party headhunting contractor because your resume was not bit for bit identical to the job posting, even if you're an internal candidate for Christ's sake. Back in the good ol' days you could probably convince a human resources associate that even though you don't have required certification X, experience Y makes up for this. Today, that human resources rep has been replaced by a third party contractor whose job is to thrash through the thousands of resumes and present 25 precisely qualified candidates to the hiring manager. The hiring manager will never see any "maybes" or "close enoughs" or "willing to settles".
My advice is to hand tailor your resume to the specific job posting each time you submit it. If a job requires a certification or degree, you'd better have it. If it says "or equivalent experience", I'd put an "Experience Equivalent to Certification X" section right up top on my resume and emotionally prepare myself to be bumped by the hundreds of other candidates that actually have Certification X.
If you have Certification Y and the job posting doesn't mention Certification Y as a requirement or a desirable, leave it off. If you can get through the phone interview with the headhunter and get an interview with the hiring manager, this might be a great time to bring up Certification Y, but to a third party headhunter, superfluous education/certification can only over-qualify you. While suggesting you have a certification that you do not is dishonest and immoral, I've never heard of anyone getting fired from McDonald's because they forgot to mention that they graduated magna cum laude from Princeton.
If you are lucky enough to be happily employed I'd recommend taking every opportunity your employer offers to obtain education at their expense. Even if you don't need it now, having a vast portfolio of degrees and certifications will empower you to craft precisely targeted resumes in the future
If you are unemployed or looking to switch, I would hit every job posting for which I am precisely qualified first, then target jobs for which I am over-qualified at companies that will have much opportunity for advancement. If you are unemployed and under-educated/certified, target entry level positions at companies that will pay for or assist with training and education. "Does the hiring company offer education assistance?" is always a good question to ask a jack ass headhunter.
Does anyone know of any good Linux certification programs in the uk. Is there any places you can take online mock exams or even free certification programs?
I don't know what the situation is like in the US, but, here in England, we have far more prospective lawyers (students with their degrees, conversion course where necessary, and vocational courses completed) looking for jobs than there are jobs available.
In the U.S. it's probably even worse. There are roughly twice as many law graduates every year than jobs waiting for them, and even then a lot of the jobs that are available are barely past minimum wage (it is not uncommon for entry-level lawyer to pay 35k a year, about the same as bachelor's degree-level jobs, and US students pay far, far more than they do in England for the law degree so they tend to accrue 100k+ in loans). It is probably the worst job market for lawyers in the past 100 years, and it has been exacerbated by an explosion of law schools and increasing enrollment, since law schools are one of the few academic departments that tend to turn a profit for the universities.
This. I'm a lawyer with a couple years of good experience, reported cases, multiple bar admissions, etc. and I clicked on this story because I was thinking of maybe going back to IT and have been contemplating taking the certification route. Though to be fair, most lawyers and law students are fully aware of how screwed they are right now. The funny thing is they are now starting to sue the law schools, which will be very interesting.
Nobody's talking about the value:cost*time ratio that the options provide or really even answering his question.
In my opinion, if you've already been in the field for several years, a degree is an option that will only set you back 3 years and 60-100 grand just to re-teach you things you already know. Will it open doors with the arrogant university-club douche bags? Probably... but is it really worth it? Let's do a calculation:
0/(60,000*3)
I've struggled with the same question and so far concluded that a certification provides the best value:cost*time. Which certification to get? That's easy... get one that's respected and rare. This line of reasoning has led me towards CCNA/CCNP. Very few people properly understand networks (even IT admins), and cisco takes things 10 steps further.
the truth is the system is completely corrupt and cronyism, nepotism, and patronism rule
people are evil, selfish and unethical, that's the reality here on this planet
is a teaching certificate. It's not a bad hedge against downturns in industry. We need more good comp sci teachers.
When I hire people, I don't look at certs at all. They're 100% meaningless. If anything, the people I've hired with certs over the years have been the worst performing employees I've had.
There's almost one exception to that - a CCNA. If someone has that, then I know they understand networking, and WAN networking is something that can cause the problems that keep me up at night. Again, I used the word "almost" in that first sentence. If the kid only has a CCNA cert, he better have a great attitude, decent experience and great references.
Maybe the career path you should be on is to get a job somewhere and try to move into management? Otherwise, trying to jump from job to job will be pretty hard - you're going to get filtered out at the HR level, or tossed aside by people like me who don't care about your silly MCSE or A+. Or, if you like networking at all, I highly recommend getting into telecom work. It's an area you can go a really long way without certs and can learn a job from the ground up. Oh, and the pay and bennies are usually great.
----- obSig
I just want to give some back story...
Right out of high school my employer wanted me to continue part time from my co-op position. For 2 years I managed to do post secondary education, however when it came time to pay for my final 3rd year, my job told me we need you full time and we need you now. So I decided heck lets get the job I want now instead of going though 1 more year of school and hope it's still there waiting for me. Keep in mind I'm from a small town...
A few years go by and now the company I work for is swallowed up by some large telecommunications company. I'm transferred to the big city and within a few months am promoted to network operations. I'm no longer performing server admin work and now trusted into networking. Okay cool, I can deal! Two years later, I'm promoter again to management.
Now you'd think from here on out it sounds like a pretty good success story, unfortunately it's the opposite! I've been pidgin holed into mgmt and there is no way out except to leave the company. I've tried to apply for numerous positions and they deny me telling me I'm not qualified to administer servers, or go into engineering as I do not have enough experience. They refuse to allow me to work side projects and won't pay for or provide me with any training to expose me into any of the areas. I'm either told, I'm not certified, or I need to complete my post secondary education. Keep in mind I finished school years ago, and now have 10 years with the current company and am only 29 years old.
So now to the real part about certifications sorry for going off track... I'm now forced to complete some sort of schooling, or certify and truthfully certification is the best way to go I believe.
If I want to maintain the network side then industry standards are to go Cisco (CCNA and then CCNP) which 5 or 6 exams. That would put you in the position where you would be trusted for mid-large size networks. Juniper certification was also recommended to me my a co-worker.
Database, I believe it's still pretty well accepted to get Oracle certified, my work seems to eat them up!
For Windows go MCSE...
Some other certs which are easier to get into would be Linux+, Security+.
Ultimately my choice will be to certify via Cisco and go aim for CCNP-Voice as I love the voice side of IT the most.
Jeremy Reimer is from Canada and nearly fits the description (except for the genius part):
Frighteningly, I knew one such person in Canada. A sociopathic, psychopathic, manic-depressive, evil genius, and unrestrained by the legal impediments which would limit a sane person's actions. Acts of violence repeatedly went unpunished by the criminal system, and attempts for redress were rejected by the civil courts. The legal system was trumped by the certificate of incompetence by AliasMarlowe (1042386) on Tuesday May 31, @03:55AM (#36294180)
Otherwise, I'd agree and say it was he, other than the genius part (because he's far from a genius. He's more the online trolling ne'er do well type who's been around computers forever, and yet hasn't really accomplished anything but plagiarizing the works of others and claiming it was his own (Douglas Englebart's history of the gui predates Reimer's plagiarist take from it).
I like to see a certification that shows you have done something. Of course, you can have a degree and/or experience and never need a cert but that wasn't the question. These are the ones I look for, all others are pretty much useless.
PE (Professional Engineering) License
CCIE
TOGAF
These show me that you at least took some time to master something.
From what I hear, there are plenty of underemployed lawyers out there too. Unless you have a pedigree, there is no free ride.
I laugh at inappropriate times.
Have you ever written a program we can all see and use?
My current theory is that programming is quite literally writing. by wrook (134116) on Tuesday May 31, @01:44AM (#36293622) Homepage
No? Then, stfu, because you have NO idea/clue of what you are talking about then. Until you can show us you've done that and that it also did well in the eyes of others?? You're full of crap, troll. Your "theory" not even that, it's barely even a hypothesis, unless you've done both and can prove to us you have (and I don't mean "hello world" style code either that you cut and pasted from the work of others and claimed as your own).
The rest of this from you is also COMPLETE horseshit:
The vast majority of programming is not conceptually difficult (contrary to what a lot of people would have you believe). by wrook (134116) on Tuesday May 31, @01:44AM (#36293622) Homepage
Ok, again: Prove you've written programs, and programs that did well that we can also try ourselves... ok?
(Why do I get the feeling we'll all be waiting until the "12th of never" for some proof of this dolt talking out his ass?)
We only make it difficult because we suck at writing. by wrook (134116) on Tuesday May 31, @01:44AM (#36293622) Homepage
We can all write, or we wouldn't be here. However, not all of us write computer programs and much less, computer programs that have done well worldwide. Show us you have, then perhaps, we will lend your words some credence.
Otherwise, again? You're full of it.
The vast majority of programmers aren't fluent, and don't even have a desire to be fluent. They don't read other people's code. They don't recognise or use idioms. They don't think *in the programming language*. Most code sucks because we have the fluency equivalent of 3 year olds trying to write a novel. And so our programs are needlessly complex. by wrook (134116) on Tuesday May 31, @01:44AM (#36293622) Homepage
What a load of complete horseshit, and especially from a big talking blowhard that hasn't done the job himself, in yourself. Prove otherwise.
Have you considered calling yourself "PHB" instead? You surely sound like one (ala Dilbert).
Well in the firs t100 comments, no one answered the question.
My suggestion, as someone currently hiring a big development team (via an HR dept with filters) is to get your PMP and ITIl v3 Foundation and in that order. Each will take a 3 day course and a few weeks of studying. The PMP is harder because the application process is pretty in depth. You are looking at a course (Global Knowledge is a good name brand to use) cost of ~ $2500 each and some ecan fees. Budget 3k per cert. Do one per year. Write it off somehow.
And to the idiots saying 'round here we based it on experience!'. Bullshit. HR always filters by certs, because they have to. How do I know you can talk to my other PM's unless you use PMI -speak? We use something like the PMI framework for our projects, I don't give a crap how you did things in timbuktoo, if you cant speak the PM talk with my PM you are no good to me. Ditto ITIL, how can you work with service desk/operations if you don't know the basics of IT lifecycle and service management? This isn't the wild west, we need to standards and thats what the certs provide.
If you are in IT, already have a bachelors and want to move up PMP+ITIl is the way to go. Look at the jobs ads fort he job you *wish* you had, you'll see what HR is looking for.
ISC(2) CISSP if you are on a Management or InfoSec track, SANS GSEC, GCIH, GCFA, GAWN would be my top choices for more technical/practical track.
My Novell CNE certainly has opened doors for me. It is framed on the wall next to my Starfleet Academy Diploma and my appointment as an Admiral in the Navy of the State of Oklahoma signed by the governor, Cowboy Pink Williams himself!
How about a moderation of -1 pedantic.
First don't listen to the naysayers who say certs don't matter. Certs matter, employers look for them because they indicate you've been exposed to all the right topics (the smart employers know a cert doesn't mean it stuck) and they look at them because having certified employees saves the company money. If your company is a reseller they actually increase the profit margins of everything sold because vendors give discounts for certified staff.
Certifications count for at least as much as other paper credentials like degrees overall. A particular employer might before a degree over an impressive cert portfolio but most will be equally impressed by either and certs are far far far less expensive (and relevant) than degrees in IT.
Neither is a substitute for actually knowing the material covered by the certs, not just on paper but how to apply it in practice. There are plenty of people with experience and/or certs who aren't competent. If you are one of those, do us a favor and go into a field where it doesn't matter.
All that said, it depends. If you are in systems administration then OS certs are important. If you are in security then a CISSP and vendor firewall certs will help you bank. If you are into networking then the cisco certs will guarantee you a crack at respectable jobs in that field.
Most Certs scream HELPDESK, that's fine if that is the type of job you want or the limit of your capabilities. Most people can do much more.
The certs that mean something to me are:
- CISSP
- VMware Engineer
- RedHat Engineer
- Oracle DBA
- Cisco
in that order. All the Security+ and A+ certs tell me is "helpdesk." It is fine to get them, just don't put them on your resume or application unless you want to be helpdesk.
Also, don't ever take a job at a helpdesk unless you are about to be kicked out of your house/apartment and don't have anything left to sell first. We all perform some sort of helpdesk work, just don't let that be your main job role. Dealing with end-users sucks, heck, I find that dealing with A+ certified folks who don't know anything more sucks more - they think they know something, when they do not know anything near as much as they believe. Only time on an OS and lots of different experience makes you an expert.
I would never claim to be a Linux expert, but I've been using it daily since 1993. I've been running Linux servers and using a Linux desktop since 1996. There's much that I don't know still. I never had a need to learn most of those things.
It's also true in the US that most lawyers are very underemployed. I *do* understand, however, that if you are also skilled in technical areas (nearly ANY technical area) you have an immense advantage.
That said, I'm not sure that it's possible for a good programmer to be a good lawyer. The rules of logic are too different. It's like studying English history and Shakespeare historicals at the same time.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
What does anyone expect, bust your ass getting through school, rack up tonnes of student loan debt to jump into a saturated job market to make $75K (if your lucky enough to actually get a job), or start your own landscape maintenance business, making half again more money and not have to worry about everybody with a broadband connection and willing to work for slave-wages taking your job?
Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
Honestly, the best way to make yourself attractive to employers is to make something. It doesn't have to be particularly notable, but it should do something interesting. Nothing impresses a job interviewer more than "I made this". It is in many ways superior to "I spent 4 years getting this piece of paper." Degrees are overrated.
My understanding is the only lawyers making money in the US are bankruptcy and foreclosure specialists.
Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
you could sue Microsoft for a billion million dollars
http://jldrill.rubyforge.org/
Some good stuff there. Some crap. Overall I give myself a C+. As you are an anonymous coward, I don't suppose you'll ever see this. I'm not even sure why I'm responding to such a ridiculous comment. But I've always been happy to have people read and critique my code. Feel free.
There are many, many "paper" IT professionals that have no clue how to do the job. Certifications are just a starting point and cannot replace experience. You can be an MCSE and manage one server, does this make you qualified?
My suggest is get certifications in ITIL or project management and grow into the "real" experience areas. IT needs better project managers not more "paper" certification with no experience. I think certification are fine for consultants to need to impress clients with all the the alphabet soup in their titles. But can they do the job? Many can't or have limited experience.
...or, you could forgo the formalities and just do truly impressive work that clearly defines you as a desirable human to be taken advantage of by the highest bidder. Fill your resume with your art, rather than empty cookie-cutter hype. In a world of drones chasing degrees for the sole purpose of getting paid more, I think It's inevitable that sooner or later we'll have a backlash effect from this trend of blind hiring based purely on superficial credentials, and finally people will start paying attention to WHAT people can do, not just how much money they've thrown at their resume.
"It seems that when people become desperate they consult the gods, and when the gods become desperate they tell lies." -
Yea get a "vendor specific" cert like in Solaris. Spend years learning, spend money learning and then have your "vendor specific" OS be gobbled up by Larry and the NOC where you work goes to Linux. Not that I care it went to Linux after Larry buying Sun that was the best choice made but to Larry's price scalping but all that training and certifying went right out the window in one big swoop.
See subject - that's the ridiculous part, the language you claim to 'write code in'.
if you can pass that exam, you boss will know you understand how IT works as a business process, and you won't be clueless about what the business side expects of the technical side.
http://www.itilcertification.org/
Ask Me About... The 80's!
I think a certification that tests your real world knowledge and ability to prove you know what you are talking about.... I have searched high and low in the tech cert world and taken many certifications with SANS, CEH, etc.... the best I have found in the world are Offensive Security's real world certs. I have both the OSCP and the OSCE. Both contained no Q&A and no way to memorize answers.
Instead what I had to do is learn and it was painfully awesome. I am not sure if they are an industry standard just yet, but what I can say is that many who know what Offensive Security is about give me respect when they find out I have their certs. Eventually this will become the standard and then it will mean a lot more to my job and my paycheck. But I suggest checking them out.
www.offensive-security.com
I have never once wished there were comments and often wish there were no comments because they make comprehension more difficult.
A syntax-aware editor such as SlickEdit will let you set the color of comments. Set the comment color equal to the background color, and presto, the comments vanish.
Bear with me for a moment and disagree with me if you must but recently I have had a spark as well. IMHO programming is to writing as application design is to story telling. I believe there are many similarities that can be drawn between application design and story telling but I won't go into that here. I've experimented with using “Writer's Cafe” to design out a application's story. Next time you design out a application take a minute to think about the applications story in the term of writing a book and possibly use the same techniques that good fiction writers use to design your application.
Companies in Middle East nations are very fond of Certifications.
Slashdot = Sarcasm
wrook -- see my uid? I've been around a while. (you too, I see.)
My enjoyment of slashdot diminished years ago -- it's long since fallen off my rss feeds and daily visits. I found your comment via a link on hacker news and you sir -- you have given me a new hope for slashdot.
kudos on an insightful post.
J.J.
I'd like to offer some counterpoint. There is some truth to what you say, certainly. Fluency/competence is important in both arenas. However, quite a number of years ago (1990), I made the observation (in the context of a discussion about intellectual property and whether copyright should apply) that literature is essentially a "divergent" activity and that programming, being an engineering activity, is "convergent". That is, if assigned an English paper to write, there's a very high chance that you will be graded down if you turn in the same answer as someone else. By contrast, if assigned a piece of code to write, you will often be graded down if you turn in a different answer than someone else.
This should give you pause as you consider things like copyrights and patents, given that the engineering activity wants to guide you to both copy and independently create works similar to what others have done, while that's not true of literature, yet the same copyright property laws span both of these areas. There's something odd about that.
Anyway, independent of the IP issues, there are good reasons that we want engineers to learn to do similar things and writers to do different things. So I don't doubt that you're right that there is some overlap of skill and activity, but I wanted to point out that the skill of being a writer of literature and of being a writer of code also have some really material differences.
Kent M Pitman
Philosopher, Technologist, Writer
It unnecessarily runs the first three lines of code before checking a condition it could just as well check right at the start. You're right that it is clear that it is modelling a state machine, but it is doing it in a way that is concerned with the fact that is a state machine, rather than a representation of something which happens to be a state machine. If I'd written that piece of code, I wouldn't love to bring it up at all. I'd blow up the source control server and deny all knowledge.
I would agree that programming is very much like writing.
The best programmers in my experience actually think in the languages they are working in much like people who are fluent in different languages think in the language they are reading or speaking at the time.
This is at times what leads to some greater problems because programmers like to dive right into the code as though it were the beginning and the end of the problem being solved. Programmers are also notoriously poor at estimation for some of these reasons. The less experienced operate from the assumption that the problem has been described correctly and that the solution will work properly the first time. There are also the ancient traps of hardcoding that impact maintainability and scalability, among others.
Lastly, there is a strange divide where evolutionary changes are seen as revolutionary. COBOL programmers fear Java and Java programmers fear COBOL. Is object oriented programming (basically having procedures and using metadata) really that different? Computers and programs have been exchanging data for about five decades through various means. If somebody knows EDI and MQ, is it really that challenging to master SOAP? Somebody who created CICS screens linked to a DB2 database shouldn't have much trouble figuring out AJAX or PHP connected to SQLServer or MySQL. It would probably be more difficult the other way around because the CICS and DB2 were often built when memory and processing power were much more expensive.