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LulzSec Posts First Secret Document Dump
Dangerous_Minds writes "LulzSec has been vowing to expose government secrets for the last few days. Now they have delivered. According to ZeroPaid, LulzSec has posted secret documents about Arizona Law Enforcement. The release has been posted to file-sharing website ThePirateBay. LulzSec says the release is because they are 'against SB1070 and the racial profiling anti-immigrant police state that is Arizona.'"
It's anti-illegal-immigrant. There's a difference.
We all know they claim they are against anything that their little scripts can penetrate. I really doubt anti-social surbuban white teens have interest in anti-immigration laws.
A state mirroring federal law, is anti-immigrant. I mean seriously here. You have the feds who refuse to enforce the law, you have a state creating a law that mirrors it, and they're anti-immigrant? Hardly. Anti-illegal immigrant indeed and I have no problems with that.
Om, nomnomnom...
as long as they don't loiter around everywhere or destroy my rental property lol.
Nobody seems to ever bring this up, but by supporting illegal immigration you are supporting modern day slavery. Illegal immigrants don't make a proper wage and dont receive any of the protections that their legal immigrant friends enjoy. Stop pretending that this is a human rights issue, its not, its simply a channel to allow businesses to abuse workers. And now I will sit back while people that don't live near the border chime in and tell us that do what the facts really are....
Not for public distribution should be illegal in a free democratic society. Democracy fails if the voters don't have a clear and complete perspective.
I have no problem with this. Also, lulzsec does tickle my anarcho-geek fancy. Information's natural state is to be free - think how much energy gets expended trying to keep things secret. Just like trying to push a large boulder up a mountain - like Sisyphus. And eventually they're going to trip up, and that boulder will come tumbling back down. We're watching it happen. And I, for one, am enjoying nom'ing on some popcorn while it happens.
The info released isn't funny in any obvious context. The press release is certainly not funny and doesn't even try to be. The ASCII gun graphic and the content of the information and press release look like classic anarchist material. Not sure if it's intentional or what but none of this seems directly connected to the personality on Twitter.
Maybe this is the result of the Anonymous/Lulzsec partnership. Maybe Lulzsec is under new management. Maybe the false flag operation has kicked into high gear.
Something has changed. You can tell by the dejavu.
I don't know how many years on this Earth I got left. I'm going to get real weird with it. - Frank Reynolds
It's OK. As long as the state didn't do anything wrong they have nothing to worry about.
Adherence to the truth is a form of disloyalty.
PDF http://azgovernor.gov/dms/upload/SB_1070_Signed.pdf
your thin skin doesn't make me a troll
Last I checked we did not have a population problem where we need to open up to immigrants let alone offer them free land like the colonists lol. We can barely sustain ourselves yet alone illegal immigrants. I dislike when people speak like you.
This is truly a stupid thing you've written here. Do you honestly believe that most people who support illegal immigration wouldn't rather be supporting legal immigration? Do you know what comprehensive immigration reform is? It's first admitting that the existing system is wrong and then trying to fix it. That is what supporters of illegal immigration support. They by no means wish to keep it illegal.
Especially since we are talking about law enforcement agencies. These are people who are given the legal authority to deprive other people of their rights -- that is the last group of people that I want operating in secret.
Palm trees and 8
I'm pretty sure that's the point. Give them a taste of their own medicine, so to speak.
Do you ever speed? J-Walk? Ever run a stop-sign? If you answer "Yes" to any of those questions (or similar questions) you are as much a "Criminal" as they are. If you claim to be able to answer "No" to all such questions, then you're a LIAR!
Over-the-top Response Guy! Giving "Over-the-Top Responses" since 1970.
Perhaps the lulzsec members are US citizens, and they are sick of watching the police operate in secrecy?
Palm trees and 8
The fine for the employer is a simple cost of doing business. Save $100,000.00 per month on wages, pay an $10,000.00 fine now and then. Getting sent back to their "Home Country" is life-devastating for the "Criminal Brown People". Not the same thing at all.
Over-the-top Response Guy! Giving "Over-the-Top Responses" since 1970.
I can imagine this leak making some big waves if the material isn't meticulously edited like the wikileaks material. Heck, this could turn out to be wikileaks 2.0 in terms of publicity.
Fining the ass off of Employers that are hiring illegal aliens?
Oh, I forgot who has the bigger lobby.
This country is seriously screwed...
Fining the ass off of Employers that are hiring illegal aliens?
Oh, I forgot who has the bigger lobby.
This country is seriously screwed...
This is the heart of the whole problem. I don't "support" illegal immigration...I support attacking the problem at the source...the jobs that create the motivation. The documentary Food Inc has an amazing segment on this. The meat packing industry (once I very good, safe, high paying factory job in the 50's) is sustained by illegal labor. Not only that, immigration conveniently deports the workers that have built up a little seniority.
This is why I HATE the illegal immigration issue so much...a bunch of politicians with no real intension of changing anything using it as a campaign issue because it stirs up all sorts of great racial hatred and gets people riled...all the while being basically on the payroll of companies that thrive on this modern day slave labor. What a crock of shit...yet voters keep falling for it election after election. Build the dang fence my fucking ass....
Anyone who is unfamiliar with arizona, needs to read an article in the new yorker called "Sherrif Joe" By William Finnegan. Its behind a paywall but there are some other places to get it
-
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504763_162-20027668-10391704.html
Many people here "illegally" pay taxes. And they avoid petty crimes because of being busted can get the deported.
So, the "lazy illegal" stereotype? Bullshit.
Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
You cannot wash away blood with blood
Where's that Internet Hate Machine I grew to know and love over the years? "Hay guiz, that's racist! Shame on you."
There's no problem immigrating to the US via legal channels. Unless you're talking about a specific subset of immigrants who don't give a shit about anything, any laws, and will do whatever regardless of what anyone else says.
Not too sure I want that specific subset around. If they do care and are desperate enough, just marry a citizen or something. Problem solved. Thats what I did :) (though not for immigration reasons =P)
Sorry, Lulzsec. Too late to change ideologies now. You set out to hack "just for the lulz". Now that some very serious people don't find you all that funny, it's a little late to start making a play for the "oppressed political dissidents" card.
I remember reading an article stating how Lulzsec was a harmless "just for fun" hacking group. Looks like they were wrong.
So someone pays $10,000 and gets someone to smuggle them over the border. That gives them the right in order to come to anyone's country. So everyone says they are so poor. That all they are trying to do is provide for their family. $10k seems like a pretty good start to me. So lets not use that $10k in order to do the paperwork and immigrate legally to the country. Then taxpayers support them in hospitals and schools. So we creep into your house in the night and we live in your basement. You kind of know we are there but the police are not allowed to come in and ask us why we are there. We know this so we bring in more of our friends. We know the police cannot ask us to show them proof that we are suppose to live in your house so they can't arrest us. I say this in hopes of getting someone to say I am a bad person. That perhaps even racist. That I am anti-immigration. Well I am here to tell you that no I am not. My wife and step-child are Filipino. I am currently working on getting their visa's done in order for them to come to the states. It is a pain in the butt in order to get everything right and it is a little tough. But we are doing it. America is founded on immigration. But if done properly nobody cares and congrats. It is when you sneak into our house that's when we get mad. If my wife and children are asked for papers after we get to the states, no problem here you go officer. If I am in another country and the police ask for my ID, yes sir here you go. I have nothing to hide I am here legally.
the torrent was just 350mb of crazy spanish / mexican porno
You do realize that the US government is targeting its own citizens for assassination attempts without due process, eavesdropping on its citizens communications without warrants, sending out NSLs with gag orders, starting wars based on lies, starting wars without Congressional approval, ruthlessly pursuing anyone who blows the whistle on wasteful government spending, locking people up with the Material Witness statute with no intent on ever calling them as a witness, kidnapping foreign nationals and sending them to other countries to be tortured, torturing foreign nationals to death, denying them any kind of due process to prove their innocence, locking them in cages for years without any evidence, expanding the powers of the "Patriot" act so that can target people without any suspicion at all...
The list goes on and on. Just because the US does not oppress you, specifically, does not mean the US isn't an openly oppressive government. Perhaps if you lived in one of those multiple Muslim countries that we drop bombs on...perhaps if it was your family that was dying while our journalists write about government strikes that "killed militants"...you might feel differently.
:(){
the problem is that we aren't fascist enough. Unfortunately for you, we know how to take care of your type. We did it before, and we'll do it again.
that the rest of us are ignorant enough to believe that they won't? I personally find your insinuation as to our gullibility to be rather insulting and think you should apologist.
"Civil rights are seriously threatened" And which civil rights are threatened? Most people making this claim are under the false impression that Anarchy is a civil right and it is not. Civil rights have always had to balance the good of the individual against the good of the society as a whole. Just because you can't do anything you like in all situations doesn't mean your rights are being violated. Your comparison between the US and Mexico is absurd. If you are going to argue a position at least include a little reality in your statements. Besides if the US and Mexico are the same why don't we have 1000's of people rushing into Mexico since things can't get be any worse than they are here so they might want to try something new?
We are afraid of the 90 percent who are racist who make the rest look bad. After all, they are in Arizona, and as you have shown, they are a pretty pathetic bunch.
Has anyone else noticed how http://lulzsecurity.com/ has been down, and their twitter account has been pretty quiet since this release? Maybe they just ran out of jolt (and their server)?
Time to check those wireless routers and start to build a citizen-net-mesh maybe?
Nothing good will come after this, only more regulations...
Â_Â
Okay, ive grokked through it quickly and I hate this Arizona law as any single mexican (which is a lot). But the info contained in the package is now public and it shouldnt be. It will help criminals get off the hook (if they have brains enough to use a torrent client). This is wrong. This jerks shouldve given this to wikileaks.
NO SIG
Why is it that white people seem to be the most vehemently opposed to any measure to deal with illegal immigration? It's like they're operating from a standpoint of hyper-sensitivity and guilt.
I find it offensive that suggesting that something needs to be done about illegal immigrations leads to a person being branded as a racist. Can anyone explain to me what's unreasonable about keeping people from entering the country illegally? That's the key distinction here: illegal.
My entire family consists of first generation immigrants. My uncle had to wait 7 years for his number to be called because he was coming with his family. And my parents were sponsoring them. I'd say 90% of my closer friends are immigrants and most of them have a problem with illegal immigration. The important thing here is that they all, myself included, came here legally. We followed the process, paid the fees and did whatever was necessary to come here.
So why should someone who felt they didn't want to bother with any of that be given a free ride? And the irony here is that coming illegally merely insures unending hardships. All those illegals who couldn't be bothered to follow the process end up being exploited doing crap work. Had they come here legally they would have had many more options.
My wife, having been in the country one week shy of a year had to pay out of state tuition at the local community college. Now an illegal immigrant enjoys the benefit of paying in-state tuition by virtue of not submitting any paperwork that proves residency. I can appreciate the motivation behind that move, they're trying to encourage illegals to go to school. The problem is, if you're still an illegal when you graduate you're still not going to be able to find work. And ultimately, there really needs to be some level of penalty for breaking the law.
The fact is, however, that there's no way we can realistically deport those already here. We do need to legalize them. But that should never happen before we've addressed the problem of those coming across the border. If we don't do that first we're never going to fix this problem and in fact we'll probably make it worse. It isn't the first time we've tried this.
And the propaganda campaign against the Arizona law was quite effective in how it has misled the American public. It basically mirrors the Federal law already in place and makes it illegal to conduct racial profiling. I found it rather amusing to hear Europeans and the Chinese berate us over the law given that their own immigration policies are much harsher. Hell, Mexico is much tougher on illegal immigrants than we are.
I've spoken to very few people who really want any kind of immigration reform. They either want all the brown people out (if they dislike illegal immigration) or simply want people to be able to do whatever they want with no documentation (if they like illegal immigration). When you talk about something like a guest worker program, which would involve things like documentation and control, they lose interest.
That's part of the reason it is an issue so little gets done on is few people seem interested in a real, comprehensive, solution. Solving the problem doesn't mean grant everyone amnesty and open the borders. There is a reason nations have and control their borders and they ALL do.
Solving the problem would be something along the lines of create a good guest worker/other visa program that quickly and easily gets people proper documentation, make the legal process extremely efficient and streamlined. Then ratchet up enforcement. Come down on people who refuse to play by the rules and those who employ them like a ton of bricks. Make it clear that the options are play by the rules or don't play.
Getting anyone to buy in to a plan like that is hard. As I said of those that want immigrants around, the most common plan seems to be "just ignore the problem."
Plenty of people, though mostly I suspect it's just people who think using the term "false-flag" makes them sound cool.
Boffoonery - downloadable Comedy Benefit for Bletchley Park
Seriously, shut the fuck up. This is idiocy. I'll tell you what - how about if you're so concerned you let a family of 10 (the mother and her 9 poor children) move in with you, asshole? It's easy to be the sensitive soul on the Internet when it doesn't cost you anything.
But my guess is you'll continue to live an affluent life (since you're posting here, it's affluent compared to the dirt poor) with a bunch of shit you don't need that could feed 30 people in Mexico, all the while ranting about the evil white racists not letting a flood of poor people stream across the border and wreck the state (and country). You're like that fat fucking pig Oprah, so concerned about the plight of the poor while she eats $500 meals and bathes in $1000 sparkling water baths.
I avoid that hypocrisy by admitting I'd rather have a 65" plasma TV and a bunch of electronic shit I don't need than feeding a family of poor people in Mexico (or somewhere else). Your kind avoid that truth or tapdance around it, all the while pretending to be holier than thou.
Here are the simple facts. As an American citizen it is not in my interest for a flood of poor, illegal immigrants to flood across the border. If they want to come in an organized way and work, hell yeah - I'm all for that. Give out more work visas.
In conclusion, sell all your shit you don't need (food, housing, clothing) and give the money to save some starving lives, or shut the fuck up, hypocrite.
.
I'm not saying you should give everything to the poor, so I don't know why you branded me with that. But certainly you shouldn't cut them out of opportunities to find ways to provide for themselves, right? I don't think I'm off-base with that assertion.
It's hardly reasonable to expect people to respect laws that prevent them from earning a living. People will do what it takes to survive, and setting laws in opposition to that is setting yourself up for failure. The reality of illegal immigration is a testament to the truth of what I'm saying here. These laws are pointless and absurd in the face of reality.
Proof again you can break into FBI or CIA, or you can talk about it, but you cant do both for very long.
This here explains it in some more words: https://www.infosecisland.com/blogview/14706-LulzSec-How-Not-to-Run-an-Insurgency.html#.TgNxjyifa2A.twitter
Invita Invidia
An elder Armanian is lying on his death bed surrounded by his sons and grandsons as he passes on his final lessons:
Remember my children, always defend the jews.
The eldest son asks confused: Why the jews?
The elder answers: Because when they are gone, we are next.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
3-4x the overall US tax rate is up into the 99-120% rates, I've lived overseas and taxes weren't that high.
US - Income Tax 0–35% (federal) 0–10.55% (states) - note I now live in a 0% state, its really nice.
US - Payroll Tax - 15.3–2.9%
US - Sales Tax - 0-10.25% (states and local) - note I live in a 0% state and city, really nice
US - top bracket in highest tax area would be 60.25%, lowest employed person will be 2.9%
I paid something like 19-20% with Federal, misc taxes and fuel tax in 2010.
US taxation as GDP is 26.9%, Denmark is the most taxed country in the world with a tax-to-GDP ratio of 48.9%
I have a tip for you, when you are trying to write a bleeding heart story, don't make the "hero" to be an asshole.
Basically you are saying that someone who disobeyed the laws of the country he was in, got in trouble with the law for breaking the law... Oh nozers!
He got arrested for being an asshole as you yourself admit. End of story.
Or do you think that someone just because they are famous shouldn't have to follow traffic law?
And just how famous do you got to be? Especially since you can't evne be bothered to name him. An athlete eh? Does it count if I been on TV in Holland, can I break traffic laws at will in the US too with your blessing?
You know why these anti-immigration laws pass? Because those that are opposed to it can't come up with anything better then your kind of story.
Why not use as your next example a mexican drug-cartel hit man being arrested as an example of why the police is wrong. That will get keep turned to your point of view REAL fast.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
"Information's natural state is to be free "
So for example if police or security services have information about a crime to be committed but what to keep it secret so they can catch the criminals in the act , you think they should just make that information public ASAP and if the criminals find out, well too bad eh? At least your moral high ground is intact.
Christ I wish people like you wold grow the fuck up. This is real life with real people, not some fantasy nirvana with idealtistic ciphers standing in for real fallible people you and you idiot right-on friends might dream about. Newsflash - such a place doesn't exist. Go learn some history and then learn about human nature.
Though they do a nice line in hypocricy. Usually with people like the OP "information" invariably means "everyone else information, not mine". They make me want to heave.
Companies would still use the cheapest labour, say that labour is expensive and pocket the profits.
Nae king! Nae laird! Nae yurrupiean pressedent! We willna be fooled again!
This just goes to show that LulzSec is just a bunch of cowardly bullies. Their actions say
We don't like you, something you do, or something you support so we are going to violate your privacy, hack your computers, and attack you, all while hiding in the shadows because we don't want you to be able to defend yourself or retaliate.
It is a bunch of "internet tough guys" going after important and powerful real life institutions. And, by going after the government, they are making the same mistake Japan did in 1941.
There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
How about this: If illegal workers are found at an employer, they are sent back home by airplane with all expenses paid by the employer - along with a month's worth of pay equal to the average legal workers' wages. Talk about disincentive.
A lot of start up funding, promotions, budgets depend on much public 'cyber' going down 'soon' to ensure the rapid expansion of Cyber 3.0 and huge new contracts. .... must save budget and prestige ...
If not funding flows to other areas. Large budgets get set lower long term, 100's of megawatts in power lost.
Need to get public interested rising fast
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
I think I have heard more than one person say that they wish Airport Security Theater was back to the old profiling days......Makes me wonder, if you are at an airport in AZ, do you get profiled, and groped?
"In the UK we managed to get rid of slavery without a war, as did most other places...ex-colony countries that became independent without war."
I apologize for being harsh, but that's because your broke-ass empire couldn't afford to keep the repression game going and slavery was never profitable for you. I'm not quite sure where Britain, Kings and Queens of the White Man's Burden, can really get all high and mighty on the United States. Civil rights in the UK evolved almost by accident as one group with power tried to take it from another group. Do you think the Magna Carta was all about the poor? F'sck no.
And I believe starting a war with Napoleon DID work out for you as did wiping out the Spanish Armada. Until then you were the bitch of any seafaring nation that wanted your little island (Romans, Dutch, French, etc).
Small matter: You may want to use immigration rather than immigrant. One is a practice, the other is a human being. Politicians are hard on crime, not hard on criminals. It is a more defensible position... but I digress...
Saying that implies that they are pro-legal-immigrantion. Much like anti-abortion, where one could say, "No, I'm just anti-illegal-abortion," which does not state what pressures are acting on that position. In the abortion debate, most are pushing to make all abortion illegal. Similarly, I would suggest that many anti-illegal-immigration advocates are also on the side of shutting down the Mexican boarder to all new immigrants. Because I hear fewer people saying they are also pro-legal-immigration. The states themselves have not stepped up with as heavy of a hand to provide help to people who wish to be legal residents.
As such, I find anti-illegal-immigration as manipulative as saying one is saying one is anti-illegal-abortion without stating how they are pro-legal-abortion. Arizona is not pro-legal-immigration, therefore, it's absurd to think of them as anti-illegal-immigration is anything but double-speak to mean, "They're criminals! Kick their ass!"
I8-D
Lost direction, have they?
We had a harder time cleaning up the British mess known as slavery.
Also, after Wilberforce's reforms went through, the British Navy was employed to end the slave trade. In other words, the world's strongest navy (i.e. military force) was employed to end slavery.
Except for ending slavery, the Nazis, communism, & securing American independence, war has never solved anything.
Dear LulzSec,
F*** you. In releasing "hundreds of private intelligence bulletins, training manuals, personal email correspondence, names, phone numbers, addresses and passwords belonging to Arizona law enforcement." you have endangered the lives and families of Arizona's DPS officers.
It is my sincerest hope that you will be caught and sent to Guantanamo Bay, where you will be interrogated for an extended period of time, then brought back to the Mainland US where you will be tried and convicted of your crimes against the State.
I am against SB1070 and in favor of immigration reform. What you have done is expose AZ DPS officers families to retribution from violent drug cartels and vicious petty criminals. You suck LulzSec.
-40yr Pima AZ Resident (http://startourstate.com/)
"Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
Hey AC, what exactly is "reasonable suspicion" of being an undocumented immigrant? SB1070 does, in fact, target anyone who "looks" like an illegal immigrant. In Arizona, that would most likely be Chicano. If I'm a bleeding heart for not wanting my citizen friends to be harassed for "looking" Mexican, then so be it.
"Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
At first I was going to point out that document leaking that exposed corruption or dirty tricks was valuable, although LulzSec shouldn't have exposed the names of undercovers who are now in grave danger. Then I checked some analyses of the documents. According to http://www.unelected.org/analysis-of-lulzsecs-arizona-dps-document-dump the contents don't show any corruption or anything, it's just interoffice emails and stuff about Mexican cartels the AZPD are trying to fight. So, yeah, I agree with you; Wikileaks distributing proof of US political corruption, with an effort to scrub names to protect agents, good. LulzSec dumping police documents that amount to showing Mexican drug cartels the entirety of law enforcement operations trying to shut them down including the names of officers working against them in secret? Bad form.
No OS on the planet can protect itself from a user with the admin password. - Yvan256
I've been looking through some of the docs, and I haven't really found anything all that bad yet. There's lots of comments on here about racial profiling, etc. But so far I haven't found anything to support that.
What I have found is that lulzsec didn't do any kind of filtering on what they released. I was sad to read about a murder investigation. I kind of wish that would have been culled out - there should be some kind of decency out of respect for those families involved. I saw some memos about a new motorcycle gang allowed to ride in AZ, and it was more 'matter of fact' informational than anything. And hey, the Hell's Angel's had a Cinco de Mayo party - make sure you use caution when approaching any of their members. oooh, scandalous. Along with officers addresses (WTF?) there's a bit of banal info like shift schedules and whatnot. I just kind of don't see the point. From looking through this, it's clear to me that police officers, no matter how "bad" they seem in the grand scheme of things, are just doing a job. It looks like they have to deal with a lot of various things and coordinating on it and doing their jobs requires a lot of discipline. And they are never allowed to make any kind of mistake apparently. Sounds like a fun job, now a bunch of internet douchebags are posting their personal info. How many people do you think will retaliate just for the 'lulz', without actually needing a reason?
I live in AZ, I'm well aware of the effects of illegal immigration. I'm also aware of the contributions of the Mexican culture to the US. There seems to be a general disgust for "border jumpers" around here, but it's directed at all brown-looking people. I get pretty sick of the jokes and comments - and I'm about as white as you can get. It just reeks of ignorance and blanket hate. It never seems to be based on real information, it's on Fox headlines, forwarded emails, or facebook posts. I think that the news of these released documents is just fuel when in reality it's not needed. If they really wanted to target injustice, they would actually read through the stuff they stole and make a more pointed release of information. This "hey, we found a bunch of evil stuff, check it out" and then releasing it to the wind could have detrimental side effects. Come on, I know you're the lowest of the low hackers, but show some initiative! All you're doing is making the machine want to clamp down tighter. If you want to make a difference, then use your heads. Sheesh.
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
You think you aren't racist, be keep using examples that clearly are racist.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
False.
They pay sales tax. All the same taxes come out of there paycheck that comes out of yours.
A) Many get employment with a fake ID, so all taxes are taking out
B) Many are self employed, and pay taxes. If they don't they risk the IRS looking into them
C) The few that get paid 'Cash on the barrel head' make so little money they wouldn't pay federal taxes anyways.
The means that, yes, in fact they do pay SS. As an added bonus, they aren't like to ever draw from SS. So it's a value add for you.
"thinking they are the same as me."
ah, the truth comes out. If you think you aren't being racist, you might want to think again.
" They have a very sweet deal here."
Compared to Mexico? yes. Compared to legal citizens? no.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
how do you get from 19-20% to 99-120%
I make over 75K and I paid 7% federal taxes, all said and done.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
You didn't post an opinion. You posted an Ad Hom attack, and your post was factually wrong.
If you where going for troll, then you need to put more effort into your post, because it read like a troll.
FYI: They the same taxes as everyone else in there relevent tax bracket.
In many case they pay more.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
And what example would that be? First maybe we should define racist. If racist is thinking people are genetically inferior then that's just ridiculous, and no educated person thinks such a thing.
Generally "racist" these days is just something people label other people so they can feel better about themselves. I think they imagine themselves as a bunch of fucking multi-colored paper cutouts holding hands across the globe feeling really cultural and sensitive and whatnot. It's especially amusing in the immigration debate. I'm sure Arizona is addressing the problem the way it is because they hate dark skinned people. I mean it's so worth it because of that, we all decided we need to kick them out because we don't like their skin tones.
I'm tired of the whole thing, frankly. Unless you're burning crosses or physically assaulting someone I don't care if you're racist, sexist, classist, heightist, weightist, attractiveness...ist. Whatever floats your boat, I don't need to make myself feel better by focusing on how much more enlightened I am than you.
How many major genocides has this century had?
Darfur, for starters. I could probably find more / others, but it's just too depressing.
"What in the name of Fats Waller is that?"
"A four-foot prune."
"This year it showed that nealry 70% of all US workers paid $0 in taxes and in some cases actually made money."
No, a percentage of US citizens paid $0 in Federal Income Tax and some actually paid $0 and got a rebate.
Unless someone lives in a no sales tax, no state income tax state, doesn't own property, doesn't have a phone or cable TV, doesn't own a car, doesn't buy fuel, they are going to pay taxes.
Poster I replied to said people overseas pay 3-4 times US rates, that just isn't true.
Average American pays 20.4% Federal Taxes, plus another 10.1% in State taxes
http://money.cnn.com/pf/features/lists/taxesbystate2005/index.html
http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2011/05/11/165367/exxon-pays-less-taxes/
Which at 3-4 times would be 91.5 to 122%
It's racist to assume that if mexicans we're allowed to freely live and work in the US, it would somehow ruin the country. You probably wouldn't say the same about Europeans, but even if you would, you'd be wrong. In the past, the US has let Europeans immigrate in precisely the manner you've described, it didn't ruin the country. It makes no sense to think a larger workforce would hinder our nations prosperity. That is counter intuitive, and it contradicts the historical record.
Ahh.. no. What will ruin the country is an influx of people at the bottom of the economic ladder who then proceed to spit out a bunch of kids, all the while the whole family gets various social and welfare services. I live here - and this is the real problem, not honest day laborers.
Able bodied workers coming across in an organized way is absolutely fine. What will ruin the country is an exponentially growing group of poor people voting themselves money from Uncle Sam.
I don't think mexicans are any more prone to doing that than anybody else would be. And you saying that is the reason people are calling you racist. I don't know anyone who really wants to be on welfare. The people I know who advocate social services the most are all middle-class, voting out of a guilty conscience because the want to believe they can help people just by checking a box. I don't often hear poor people talk about voting for social services. Most of the homeless people I know actually hate the government and want nothing to do with it. All the illegal immigrants I know just wish they were legal so they'd have an easier time finding a job.
I suppose the way to look at it is this. Imagine the kind of person who wants to live on welfare. Are they the kind of person who would get off their ass to vote (the polls say that people on welfare basically don't vote)? Are they the kind of person who would move to another country? No, they lack the motivation to do any of that, that's why they are willing to settle for doing nothing all day long. All they probably want to do is get high and watch television. It's hardly something to be worried about (unless you are legitimately concerned for their welfare, of course).
If you are worried about social services bankrupting the country, it's the middle class voter who should be keeping you up at night. It's their retirement funds that the government just took on 2 trillion dollars of debt to sure up. It's their cushy union jobs the government saved by bailing out GM. They want a lot more than the poor do, and they have the motivation and desire to try and get it from Uncle Sam.
Sure you can, go down the the ER when you need medical care. They cannot turn you away.
So let me get this straight. Poor Mexicans (a nationality, btw, not a race) are not more prone to coming across the border and spitting out anchor babies? That's amazing news. I'll tell my friend those leaches she has to deal with in the ghettos are actually Canadians!
It's not about race, it's about poor people. No sane person wants poor people flooding across the border.
And fuck yes I'm worried about the "middle class" too. You get the double whammy there. They want their free shit when they get older, and they feel guilty so they vote money for the poor too.
Here's the problem. You're citing this anchor-baby thing as though it is a real thing, and all the studies I've seen say it's not, which matches my personal experience as well. It's hypothetical and it has no basis in reality.
The same goes for the assertion that illegals want to gain access to social services. They do not, they want jobs. I've never met an illegal immigrant who came here to get free services. These ideas you are spouting about the intentions of illegal immigrants are not based in reality.
It's true that when they come here they are poor, and so they live in slums. But that's not where they want to live, and that's not why they came here. They came here because they want to work to build better lives for themselves. And everyone stands to benefit from that kind of construction. They do not need to profit at your expense.
And if you'd sit down and think about it for one second, you'd realize that unmotivated people who benefit from social services do not have what it takes to move to another country. Think about it. They aren't motivated to work even by the need to eat. Moving to a different country is 100 times harder than working a job.
If you have a problem with social services, you need to work to stop the people who are actually promoting them. The whole illegal immigrant thing is just a distraction. And by making broad, unrealistic claims about the makeup of mexicans who wish to move the the US, you are essentially working to push those immigrants into the arms of people who advocate social services. Because you are wrong, you are a racist. It's not an unfair label to apply to someone who makes broad, unfounded, unrealistic, fear-based claims about another group of people. You need to get your head strait, and arm yourself with some real information, otherwise you are just going to be part of the problem.
And I don't need to tell you that the way things are headed, the US is in for a financial cluster fuck of unimaginable proportions. You need to stop being part of the status-quo if you intend to deflect it from that course. If you can't pull your head out of your ass and do that, the liberals have already won, and we've all lost.
The same goes for the assertion that illegals want to gain access to social services. They do not, they want jobs. I've never met an illegal immigrant who came here to get free services. These ideas you are spouting about the intentions of illegal immigrants are not based in reality.
You don't know what you're talking about, so your claims of racism mean less than they would coming from someone who does - which also means 0. You're effectively asserting that simple, provable facts are "racist". Go to a school in a poor neighborhood in Phoenix and figure out how many kids are children of illegals. Go follow someone from CPS around and find out how many illegal parents are receiving services for their kids. Illegals don't get services directly, they get them for their children. That's what an "anchor baby" is - the kid is a US citizen so can get a bunch of services.
Unmotivated people? Really I just don't know what the hell you're all on about. Are you from Connecticut or Oregon or something? A lot of them come to work, that's cool. Fine them and give them legal status. The rest need a boot up the ass.
Sure - it's not the biggest problem facing the country by any stretch in the near term or even mid-term, but it's one of the biggest in the long term.
In short, you have the clueless bleeding heart's perspective. Oh, the romantic illegals, coming here because they want to just better themselves and their families. How wonderful... 80% of them do indeed, it's that 20% that will fuck you. And frankly I don't give a shit about the 80% either unless it's in our best interests. Sometimes it is - so issue more work visas.
I know illegal immigrants, and I have read the statistics. I know what I'm talking about. This isn't a bleeding heart's perspective. It's a pragmatic, reasonable viewpoint to take. The anti-immigration stance is the one statistics and reality don't support, and that's the side you are on.
I don't have that authority, or else, obviously, I would. Actually, I'd issue citizenship. No sense sending skilled workers back home.
This is a strange form of accounting you are employing. Say you are going to make an investment in seeds, and you know that 20% of the seeds won't grow when you plant them. So you say, "I don't care about the 80% that will grow, it's the 20% that won't that will fuck you". This is truly a silly thing. And it's not like a visa program will somehow sort the 20% from the 80%. There's no way to tell who's a worker and who's a freeloader. So pay the worker, fire the freeloader. If you have a problem with social programs, don't take it out on people who are just trying to scratch out a living for themselves. That is a separate issue.