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US Energy Panel Cautiously Endorses Fracking

Hugh Pickens writes "The Christian Science Monitor reports that a U.S. Energy Department advisory panel has endorsed fracking, or hydraulic fracturing, a promising technology that injects a mixture of water, sand, and chemicals underground to fracture rock and release shale gas previously thought unretrievable, paving the way for tens of thousands of new wells. If fracking can be done safely, it could be a major source of domestic energy over the next century. Shale gas makes up about 14 percent of the U.S. natural gas supply today, but is expected to reach 45 percent by 2035. But first, serious environmental concerns must be addressed. Earlier this year, a Duke University study of 68 private groundwater wells in Pennsylvania and New York state found evidence that shale-gas extraction has caused them to become contaminated with methane. One key recommendation by the panel is a call for transparency regarding the use of chemicals in the extraction process. Drillers say they would like to keep the exact formula of the chemicals they use secret because it represents a competitive advantage."

216 of 294 comments (clear)

  1. WTF? by Syberz · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The U.S. Energy Department endorses this horrible process?!? All of the places where this technology was used has resulted in contaminating the neighboring population's water.

    Oh wait, it also resulted in the harvesting of gas... well that trumps everything then.

    --
    ~Syberz
    1. Re:WTF? by drunkahol · · Score: 5, Informative

      Fracking is just another tool in the arsenal of getting hydrocarbons from the ground. Doing it too close to underground wells, on the other hand, is a completely different matter. I would suggest that these cases come down to negligence on the part of the individual drilling company rather than an systematic failure of the process as a whole.

    2. Re:WTF? by Syberz · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I'm not saying that the process doesn't work, I'm saying that whenever it's used it also contaminates the ground water. Even if you're careful, it's more than likely that you will contaminate the water so unless the odds improve, this tech should not be approved for use, even far from civilization as water is a more important resource than gas.

      --
      ~Syberz
    3. Re:WTF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Fracking is just another tool in the arsenal of getting hydrocarbons from the ground. Doing it too close to underground wells, on the other hand, is a completely different matter. I would suggest that these cases come down to negligence on the part of the individual drilling company rather than an systematic failure of the process as a whole.

      I would suggest that most people commenting it don't know much, if anything, about the subject except for what they've heard on the news.

      I'm from Oklahoma, where the wells are almost exclusively very deep wells. I recently traveled to Pennsylvania for work in the oil field. The thing is, Pennsylvania is where the Drake well was drilled. Oil was discovered there first because it's easy to get to, it's extremely shallow oil and gas. The shale drilling is happening below all of these existing formations that have been produced for a hundred years. There is a creek there named oil creek.. it's named oil creek because the oil production companies used to dump oil into the creek with troughs running straight from the wellheads, then skim the oil at a refinery downstream.

      I'm not a petroleum engineer, and I don't know everything about this stuff.. but I've traveled to four major shale plays now and EVERY ONE OF THEM is deep below plays that have been produced for at least 50 years. If someone wants to be sure that it's the shale drilling that's causing methane gas in water supplies, they need to do a before/after study of a shale play that is on land that has not been produced for 50 years with questionable recovery practices already.

      Just to note.. when a well is being fractured and there is a leak, it causes very noticeable, problematic events in the equipment that is fracturing the well. A little leak turns into a big leak very fast due to the sheer velocity and pressure of gas escaping through the leak. There is a surface casing of concrete extending down well past the water table. This is why people in the oil industry think that people babbling about it after hearing it on the news, mis-pronouncing the names of the shale plays are all full of FUD.

    4. Re:WTF? by S.O.B. · · Score: 2

      Fracking is just another tool in the arsenal of getting hydrocarbons from the ground. Doing it too close to underground wells, on the other hand, is a completely different matter. I would suggest that these cases come down to negligence and/or greed on the part of the individual drilling company rather than an systematic failure of the process as a whole.

      FTFY

      --
      Some of what I say is fact, some is conjecture, the rest I'm just blowing out my ass...you guess.
    5. Re:WTF? by jellomizer · · Score: 1, Troll

      The technology is still new and the full environmental impact isn't known. Trying it out in a controlled method as they ramp up to more is reasonable. This method is no worse then other energy extracting methods such as drilling for oil or coal mining. We need smart environmental laws that realize that some things do have a cost however the benefits out weight the costs. It seems like environuts are booing every idea that has a negative impact on the environment, forcing us to stick to the old end even more environmental damaging methods, Oil Drilling, Coal Mining...

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    6. Re:WTF? by Gr33nJ3ll0 · · Score: 1

      And how do you heat your home in the winter?

    7. Re:WTF? by Syberz · · Score: 1, Troll

      I agree that better methods are needed and that current methods aren't great, but fracking has been proven to be a problem and the benefits definitely do not outweigh the cost. This documentary provides quite a bit of info on the subject.

      --
      ~Syberz
    8. Re:WTF? by Syberz · · Score: 2

      Currently, via electricity produced by hydroelectric dams. Yes, flooding large swatches of land is a bad thing, but it's cleaner energy than coal, shale gas or oil. My province (Quebec) is also currently working on adding cleaner sources such as wind and tides. Fracking was also proposed, but the outcry from the population put a break on that endeavor and the government decided to invest in cleaner forms of energy (energy companies here are owned by the government).

      --
      ~Syberz
    9. Re:WTF? by ZonkerWilliam · · Score: 1

      There's more to it, methane and water do not mix, yes methane can flow into underground water wells, they often do naturally. If one wanted to, some entrepreneurial person could easily come up with something to separate the water and methane out of ground. Then people who own this device gets methane to heat/power/cook with for free. Another major factor about "fracking" it has been around for decades since 1947 for gas and oil, the first official use is dated to 1903, Why worry about it now? Sounds like media scare tactics.

    10. Re:WTF? by Geoffrey.landis · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The thing is, Pennsylvania is where the Drake well was drilled..... There is a creek there named oil creek.. it's named oil creek because the oil production companies used to dump oil into the creek with troughs running straight from the wellheads, then skim the oil at a refinery downstream.

      Yow. I have to say, that does not give me good feelings about how conscious the oil and gas companies are about the environment.

      "We'll drill the gas out now, and some time in the future, after we've made our profits, other people can clean up any teeny little mess we might have made-- they can worry about that later."

      --
      http://www.geoffreylandis.com
    11. Re:WTF? by Zerth · · Score: 5, Funny

      And how do you heat your home in the winter?

      Open the taps and light a match?

    12. Re:WTF? by sourcerror · · Score: 2

      Nuclear? It's still more manageable than fracking. These chemicals are usually carciogens. Just look up burning tap water, and the health statistics in the affected regions.

    13. Re:WTF? by Sloppy · · Score: 2

      President Muffley: General Turgidson! When you instituted the human reliability tests, you assured me there was no possibility of such a thing ever occurring!

      Buck Turgidson: Well, I, don't think it's quite fair to condemn a whole program because of a single slip-up, sir.

      --
      As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
    14. Re:WTF? by Teun · · Score: 1
      There's nothing new about hydraulic fracturing of oil and gas reservoirs.

      As a matter of fact I'm this very moment involved in one.

      The reservoir is 3,500 m. down, the salt dome that for in excess of 250 million years has prevented the gas to seep up has by the frac process not been affected in any way and continues to contain the valuable energy till the reservoir has been depleted by the investing company.
      This is not to say oil or gas recovery can't cause serious issues when regulations aren't followed. The problem is a USofA one where ruthless companies were able to 'convince' greedy politicians that regulation is a bad thing as it gets in the way of making short term money.

      In the mean time the civilised world continues extracting hydrocarbon energy from safely fractured wells without causing any ill effects to the environment.

      --
      "The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
    15. Re:WTF? by GrumpySteen · · Score: 5, Insightful

      > Another major factor about "fracking" it has been around for decades since 1947 for gas and oil, the first official use is dated to 1903, Why worry about it now? Sounds like media scare tactics.

      Asbestos was used for insulation since 1857 and the first usage of it goes back at least 4,500 years. Why worry about it now?

      Radium-laced water was used to cure virtually everything around the start of the 20th century. Why worry about it now?

      Thalidomide was used to combat morning sickness since 1957. Why worry about it now?

      Maybe because we've actually learned that some of the things done in the past turned out to be staggeringly stupid and short sighted?

    16. Re:WTF? by ZonkerWilliam · · Score: 1

      So by that logic, can you point out how many death's have occurred due to 'fracking'?

    17. Re:WTF? by Andy+Dodd · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Simple - all but one of the members of this panel had proven ties to the gas industry.

      I support gas drilling if it can be done responsibly and safely. The problem is that right now, there is no evidence that it is possible to do it responsibly and safely.

      It isn't a technical problem, it's a political/management one - If the gas drilling companies said, "OK, we just fucked up, here's what we are doing to prevent it from happening again." - I'd be willing to give them the benefit of the doubt after a few screwups.

      The problem is that their attitude is, "Nothing wrong ever happened. The contamination is not our fault... Some bacteria crawled into your well that had been clean for decades at around the same time we started drilling. No, there isn't any connection. Drilling is safe!" - They refuse to acknowledge their problems and mistakes and take responsibility for them, and as a result, those mistakes keep getting made over and over again.

      If New York approves gas drilling, I'm seriously considering moving elsewhere. The uncertainty of hydrofracking is why I haven't bought a house yet - I'm screwed if house values around here plummet due to hydrofracturing.

      --
      retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
    18. Re:WTF? by Andy+Dodd · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Yup. 5-10 years of fracking has sickened more people than the entire history of civilian nuclear power. Maybe even pseudo-civilian power which lets you count Chernobyl.

      The big difference here is:
      Gas industry - "We have no problems. We are 100% safe. That contamination didn't happen. We're 100% safe." - In the past 5-10 years we have seen ZERO improvements to their operational techniques to improve safety and eliminate underground blowouts and spills.

      Nuclear industry - "If we fuck up, bad shit's going to happen. Let's go to great lengths to prevent it from happening, and if we have a close call we'll immediately modify other plants to address it." - Even before Fukushima happened, plant designers decided that it COULD happen, as unlikely as it was, and addressed its failure modes in modern plant designs.

      There's a constant evolution of safety in the nuclear industry, with core damage probabilities constantly moving downwards. There is no such evolution in the gas industry.

      Drilling near me - HELL NO. Nuke plant upriver from me on the Susquehanna? - Sure, if it means no drilling and no coal plants!

      I'll take living a mile from a nuke plant (especially a modernized one like an AP1000 or ESBWR) over 5 from a coal plant and anywhere downriver of a gas drilling site any day.

      --
      retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
    19. Re:WTF? by Andy+Dodd · · Score: 1

      We're worrying about it now because the way it is being used has changed, and it has become FAR more widespread.

      As a result - contamination is happening left and right.

      --
      retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
    20. Re:WTF? by webdog314 · · Score: 1

      Wait, what? So we need to have a nice high tally before we can stop being stupid?

    21. Re:WTF? by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      I support gas drilling if it can be done responsibly and safely. The problem is that right now, there is no evidence that it is possible to do it responsibly and safely.

      Pure FUD. Right now, there is no evidence that it isn't being done responsibly and safely, in the vast majority of cases.

      The problem is that their attitude is, "Nothing wrong ever happened. The contamination is not our fault... Some bacteria crawled into your well that had been clean for decades at around the same time we started drilling. No, there isn't any connection. Drilling is safe!"

      Yes, and most of the time, they're absolutely right. Have you been paying attention to the world around you? There are people running around screaming about the dangers of power-lines. Others railing against cell-phone "radiation". Or Wi-Fi. Even nimrods complaining about nuclear power plants, and, more recently, "shock-waves" made by wind-turbines. No matter what technology you decide to use, you're guaranteed to have at least a couple halfwits protesting against it, claiming you're killing babies and causing brain-damage in puppies. Given the prevalence of such people, how much are you willing to bet that the complaints being made about "fracking" are legit?

      People confuse correlation with causation all the time, and having the perceived ability to sue for millions of dollars tends to discourage them from educating themselves on the subject. The only proper response to these ignorant luddites is "shut the fuck up, and get out of my way".

    22. Re:WTF? by demonlapin · · Score: 2

      That was in the mid-1800s. The early Pennsylvania stuff was mostly played out by the early 1900s, although many wells have continued to produce at low quantities since.

    23. Re:WTF? by Slime-dogg · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Currently, via electricity produced by hydroelectric dams. Yes, flooding large swatches of land is a bad thing, but it's cleaner energy than coal, shale gas or oil. My province (Quebec) is also currently working on adding cleaner sources such as wind and tides. Fracking was also proposed, but the outcry from the population put a break on that endeavor and the government decided to invest in cleaner forms of energy (energy companies here are owned by the government).

      Hydroelectric power is the reason that the NWP region is losing salmon populations. There is no "clean" power. It either screws up the ecosystem by way of pollution, screws up the ecosystem by displacement, or screws up the ecosystem by removing energy from the atmosphere and messing up weather patterns.

      Stop lying to make yourself feel special. Thanks.

      --
      You need to restart your computer. Hold down the Power button for several seconds or press the Restart button.
    24. Re:WTF? by Syberz · · Score: 2

      I said that hydro-electric was cleaner than the other methods, not totally clean. I also said that other methods were looked into that might be cleaner still.

      Learn how to read. Thanks.

      I do however agree with you that there is no source of power which is 100% clean, but just because that's true it doesn't mean that we shouldn't care where the power comes from.

      --
      ~Syberz
    25. Re:WTF? by hedwards · · Score: 1

      To be honest, nobody in their right mind trusts the oil industry anymore to be responsible about these sorts of things. Last winter when I was on the train somewhere in Montana I overheard this young man talking about how bad we were in Washington for not allowing them to tear up our state looking for oil.

      Well, the thing is that the oil industry has a lousy record when it comes to environmental cleanliness and ultimately, even when things are done carefully it just results in more pollution. Deepwater Horizon shouldn't have ever happened. Sure they've got religion now, but it's purely because they screwed up in such a massive way that they had to.

    26. Re:WTF? by poity · · Score: 1

      Consider this:

      The U.S. Energy Department endorses uranium mining?!? All of the places where uranium has been mined has resulted in contaminating the neighboring environment.

      Oh wait, it also resulted in the harvesting of nuclear fuel... well that trumps everything then.

      I'm in favor of both nuclear and gas, and it seems to me there are some forms of pollution we just have to manage rather than whole-sale avoid. Regulations and government purchasing of drilling sites can help in this. Why is slashdot so pro-nuclear and accepting of its various negative trade-offs yet so against natural gas extraction and its negative trade-offs?

      --
      your thin skin doesn't make me a troll
    27. Re:WTF? by interkin3tic · · Score: 1

      It is a systematic failure. The drilling companies will -always- drill if their investors want them to and will -never- avoid wells just because the public wants them to. It's a bit like saying "Meth is just a normal chemical and should be legal, getting addicted to it is a failure of the individual." Both may be philosophically pure with certain political ideologies, but in practice would create far more problems for society, and both should be regulated or banned.

    28. Re:WTF? by arkane1234 · · Score: 1

      Way to dumb it down to a non-intrusive tech.

      (tongue-in-cheek)
      You know, feeding your children arsenic in light doses actually is a good thing, because it lightens their skin and makes for a better complexion during photography sessions and amongst those of political stature.
      (/tongue-in-cheek)

      We so need to hire you in the tobacco industry, you'd make us some money.

      --
      -- This space for lease, low setup fee, inquire within!
    29. Re:WTF? by Hadlock · · Score: 2

      A major problem with fracking is that Texas is a prime candidate for the process, but at the same time relies heavily on regional aquifers for our drinking water due to drought conditions pretty much every summer. The fact that an external electric company poached our electrical generation capacity two years ago and did a bunch of bad things immediately after the acquisition doesn't leave me much faith that there will be many safety precautions, let alone feigning them. Texas is extremely liberal when it comes to accessing mineral rights.

      --
      moox. for a new generation.
    30. Re:WTF? by Syberz · · Score: 1

      Good question. Personally I'm in favor of neither but currently we don't have much of a choice.

      I'd much rather we research cleaner energy sources such as making solar more efficient/less expensive, using waves/tides, using wind, using cow-farts or whatever. Regulation or heavily restricting the dirtier methods would force innovation and the discovery of cleaner methods.

      --
      ~Syberz
    31. Re:WTF? by arkane1234 · · Score: 1

      It will contaminate it the way it already has. Let's use some common sense here. This isn't a brand new cutting edge thing being thought about, this is DONE, and we know the outcome.

      Thanks for playing.

      --
      -- This space for lease, low setup fee, inquire within!
    32. Re:WTF? by Brainpimp · · Score: 2

      Fracking is not new. It has been around for 40 years. It's just being used with new horizontal drilling techniques. Anytime there is the slightest water contamination, it has nothing to do with fracking.. You are getting waste water discharge and fracking confused. Fracking goes on 10's of thousands of feet away from any water tables and they are sealed and isolated by thousands of tons of concrete. You don't know enough about the process to even speak intelligently.

    33. Re:WTF? by budgenator · · Score: 1

      I used to do that, I grew up drinking well water that had so much gas in it, it sometimes knocked the water glass out of your hand when you opened the faucet. At the water tank, there is an air space to moderated water pressure, it would collect the methane/CO gasses and when vented would shoot flames about two feet. We had an oil seep on the property too.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    34. Re:WTF? by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      Why is slashdot so pro-nuclear and accepting of its various negative trade-offs yet so against natural gas extraction and its negative trade-offs?

      Because nuclear doesn't cause Global Warming, and natural gas does?

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    35. Re:WTF? by Syberz · · Score: 1

      The fracking process causes the gas to end up in the water in dangerous levels. On the plus side however, the water was found to be free of fracturing fluids.

      --
      ~Syberz
    36. Re:WTF? by CPTreese · · Score: 1

      I'll bet that water was delicious!

      I'd like a little H2O hold the methane please

      --
      If there is no God then free will is an illusion.
    37. Re:WTF? by Sarten-X · · Score: 1

      The Duke study just compares drilling areas to non-drilling areas. There is a correlation between drilling and having methane, but there's also a correlation between having naturally-high amounts of methane in the ground and getting the first drills. To my knowledge, there was no before-and-after testing, and little testing of wells in high-methane areas without drilling.

      Interestingly, the study you linked is the one mentioned in the summary, but you went straight to the study, rather than the news article which also mentions these problems.

      Every other study I've seen has been similar: Evidence of correlation, but not much supporting causation. Do you have anything more conclusive?

      --
      You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
    38. Re:WTF? by Syberz · · Score: 1

      Not off the cuff no, there is a documentary on the subject which brings a lot of interesting info but it's very Moore-like, i.e. although factual, it's rather one sided.

      --
      ~Syberz
    39. Re:WTF? by hxnwix · · Score: 1

      I support gas drilling if it can be done responsibly and safely. The problem is that right now, there is no evidence that it is possible to do it responsibly and safely.

      Pure FUD. Right now, there is no evidence that it isn't being done responsibly and safely, in the vast majority of cases.

      Your weasel words fail to reassure anybody. There is evidence: methane contaminated wells. The response from the oil companies to this data is, "our double hull steel casement and concrete wraparound structure 100% ensures that we could not be the cause of your problem. Besides, it would be a violation of my fiduciary duty to my stockholders were I to acknowledge that we are obviously liable for this occurrence."

      We all know how this works. Eventually, we will learn that fracking containment is actually only 98% effective, that the oil companies knew this for years, that your part of the civil suit settlement is $8.38, and that smoking while you take a bath will now cause your house to explode.

      The only proper response to these ignorant luddites is "shut the fuck up, and get out of my way".

      The fool is an ironic character because he does not realize he is the fool. Now that you have been made aware, you become the asshole.

    40. Re:WTF? by Sarten-X · · Score: 1

      I've seen it, and it also lacks base-line data for many of its statements. The majority of the "facts" presented are exaggerated at best, and often outright wrong.

      --
      You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
    41. Re:WTF? by Syberz · · Score: 1

      Much thanks for the added info!

      --
      ~Syberz
    42. Re:WTF? by Vancorps · · Score: 1

      You're willfully ignorant. In fact, you're the one spouting pure FUD. There is plenty of actual scientific evidence that the way fracking is performed in this country is completely irreponsible. Fracking fundimentally can be done safely but in practice it is not. Given the lack of enforcement of existing regulations and the blatent disregard for regulations by the oil and gas industries it's hard to make an honest argument that they won't cause serious environmental harm.

    43. Re:WTF? by guspasho · · Score: 1

      It would be negligence if it were actually possible to frack without contaminating groundwater. It sounds like that's impossible, so the negligence isn't in the fracking process but the decision to frack in the first place.

    44. Re:WTF? by ZonkerWilliam · · Score: 1

      Wait, what? So we need to have a nice high tally before we can stop being stupid?

      How about any tally? or is it OK to be so risk adverse to anything? Around 150 people die a year from Coconuts, more than shark attacks, should we ban those?

      http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2405/are-150-people-killed-each-year-by-falling-coconuts

      Stupid seems to be the word of the day.

    45. Re:WTF? by ZonkerWilliam · · Score: 1

      We're worrying about it now because the way it is being used has changed, and it has become FAR more widespread.

      As a result - contamination is happening left and right.

      Please tell us where it's happening??

      Here's a quote from Wikipedia;

      A 2011 study by the Massachusetts Institute of Technology concluded that "The environmental impacts of shale development are challenging but manageable.". The study addressed groundwater contamination, noting "There has been concern that these fractures can also penetrate shallow freshwater zones and contaminate them with fracturing uid, but there is no evidence that this is occurring". This study blames known instances of methane contamination on a small number of sub-standard operations, and encourages the use of industry best practices to prevent such events from recurring.

      I believe it (fracking) can be done safely, with regulations to guide companies. We don't need FUD, that doesn't help anyone or anything.

    46. Re:WTF? by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      Your weasel words fail to reassure anybody. There is evidence: methane contaminated wells.

      Hah. Yeah, like the presence of oranges in my kitchen is evidence that Big Produce has been dumping stuff in my house.

      Please. Don't be stupid.

      The fool is an ironic character because he does not realize he is the fool. Now that you have been made aware, you become the asshole.

      Thanks, Dr. Science! Maybe for an encore you can explain to me how the presence of CO2 on mars proves that industrials are poisoning it's atmosphere, or how the presence of oil in the ground proves that Big Oil has been having massive spills.

      Fuck off. If you're not going to make a serious argument, why bother responding?

    47. Re:WTF? by Annirak · · Score: 1

      Just a point to note: tidal power is a waste of time. The power density available from a perfect tidal pool is about 2% of an equivalent solar array. (This assumes the world's highest tides, but only 600W/m^2 available power for half of the day on average).

      In terms of land utilization, we should never endorse tidal power.

    48. Re:WTF? by the+biologist · · Score: 1

      Which is actually why coconuts are being selected and bred to have smaller fruit. Most coconut palms grown in landscaping in appropriate parts of the country have much smaller than wild type fruits.

    49. Re:WTF? by ZonkerWilliam · · Score: 1

      That's pretty smart, and supports my point, innovate and find solutions don't run away from it in fear that it could do some harm.

    50. Re:WTF? by theArtificial · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the laugh!

      --
      Man blir trött av att gå och göra ingenting.
    51. Re:WTF? by Kagura · · Score: 1

      She's a fracking cylon, Chief!

    52. Re:WTF? by Drugmath · · Score: 2

      It tasted just like normal water. The methane bubbles up and evaporates into the air in a matter of seconds after pouring the glass, and even if that weren't the case, methane, while flammable, is also odourless, colourless, and non-toxic.

    53. Re:WTF? by demonlapin · · Score: 1

      In other words, it's an amusing thing to watch if you agree with the filmmaker's ideology, but it's not exactly solid reportage?

    54. Re:WTF? by knghtrider · · Score: 1

      What about...

      1. Releasing of methane into the air that is done at every well site---methane is a known Greenhouse Gas--trapping 21x more heat than CO2.
      2. All of the exhaust from the myriad of diesel generators that run day and night; powering the drilling rigs and compressor stations?
      3. All of the exhaust from the thousands trucks each Gas company has on the road? Chesapeake energy has at least 5,000 on the road in PA alone.

      Natural Gas might burn cleaner, but the extraction is just as dirty; if not more so. Read the Cornell Study.

      --
      In America today you can murder land for private profit. You can leave the corpse for all to see, and nobody calls the c
    55. Re:WTF? by knghtrider · · Score: 1

      Energy In Depth is a shill front for the Oil and Gas industry. Do you really trust that information?

      --
      In America today you can murder land for private profit. You can leave the corpse for all to see, and nobody calls the c
    56. Re:WTF? by transporter_ii · · Score: 1

      Type Fracking and Earthquakes into google. Ground water contamination is not the only concern, though that's probably higher up on the list. I've done some work for a gas company doing SCADA. Fracking would be my biggest concern of the whole setup. Once the wells are going and everything is cleaned up, the environmental impact seems a tolerable trade off. But a person would have to have some pretty heavy duty blinders on (or make a lot of money from doing it) not have concerns about fracking.

      --
      Doctors destroy health, lawyers destroy justice, universities destroy knowledge, religion destroys spirituality
    57. Re:WTF? by budgenator · · Score: 1

      It was, there was a very subtle sweetish taste.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    58. Re:WTF? by Pascal+Sartoretti · · Score: 1

      There is no "clean" power

      Thermal solar panels on your rooftop to pre-heat water. Please give me any downside...

    59. Re:WTF? by Sarten-X · · Score: 1

      Quite obviously and openly so, but at least their facts check out. Just like every other source I've seen on both sides of the issue, there's missing data, but everybody jumps to their preferred conclusion.

      --
      You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
    60. Re:WTF? by CPTreese · · Score: 1

      Thanks for filling me in, I had always thought that it was the methane I was smelling after a good "dutch oven"

      --
      If there is no God then free will is an illusion.
    61. Re:WTF? by Aqualung812 · · Score: 1

      The reservoir is 3,500 m. down, the salt dome that for in excess of 250 million years has prevented the gas to seep up has by the frac process not been affected in any way

      Other than the hole you just drilled into it.

      How do you know no gas is leaking into the water supply?

      --
      Grammer Nazis - I mod you "troll" unless you actually add something on-topic. Yes, I know I have mispellings in my sig.
    62. Re:WTF? by webdog314 · · Score: 1

      You do understand that the coconuts are falling naturally, right? Whereas we are fracking ourselves. If you had people up in the trees dropping coconuts on unsuspecting tourists, wouldn't it be a good idea to tell them to stop rather than comparing meaningless statistics on death rates?

    63. Re:WTF? by ZonkerWilliam · · Score: 1

      You do realize it's not about natural or man made, it's about the likelihood of dieing?!. Since 1947 when fracking has been introduced, there has been no human deaths linked to it. It would be a very good thing if people stopped looking at FUD and started looking at reason.

    64. Re:WTF? by CPTreese · · Score: 1

      my pleasure! What does your signature mean?

      --
      If there is no God then free will is an illusion.
    65. Re:WTF? by theArtificial · · Score: 1

      It's a Swedish proverb: "We get tired of doing nothing."

      --
      Man blir trött av att gå och göra ingenting.
  2. It already is a major, massive source of energy by decora · · Score: 5, Interesting

    There are already thousands and thosuands of wells all over the United States, that was the whole point of part of Cheney's energy plan.

    Please see GASLAND by Josh Fox.

    Fun fact - the people who own those mineral rights probably don't care about the environmental damage, they are getting massively rich. if you could somehow spread out the wind-power profits to tens of thousands of people you might see more political support for wind farms.

    1. Re:It already is a major, massive source of energy by cowboy76Spain · · Score: 1, Troll

      Fun fact - the people who own those mineral rights probably don't care about the environmental damage, they are getting massively rich. if you could somehow spread out the wind-power profits to a few hundreds of wealthy people you might see more political support for wind farms.

      There, fixed that for you.

      --
      Why can't /. have a rich-text editor? Editing your own HTML is so XXth century.
    2. Re:It already is a major, massive source of energy by Gideon+Wells · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I live near State College, Pa. Knew several people who went wind farming as in this state there is a group that will pay you if you generate surplus energy. I've heard nothing from complaints about single digit pay outs. Your wind farm idea won't work here.

      Marcellus Shale? There are the people who don't want it due to environmental reasons and the people in rural communities who have $28,000 average house hold incomes thinking this is he best golden era for the state since the coal mines and lumber clear cutting. The area needs money badly.

      Not just drilling is helping us. Businesses that were shut down due to the economy have reopened and retooled to M.S. support. General metal fabricators are now reopening as dedicated parts crafters for well pads. Welders are producing storage tanks. Cash strapped municiplaties are selling water to be used for fracking. There are roads that were once paved, deteriorated into gravel that were repaved by the Shale Drillers in order to have good roads for their trucks. Locals are now being hired for 2-4x the average salary for the area. There are even talks in several communities of building frack water treatment facilities.

      Jobs, money, etc. are being created by shale when green energy such as the ethanol plant a county away is shutting down. I just wish it was all being done by something without such negative impacts.

      Additional Fun Facts:
      * Mineral rights != Shale rights in PA. We also have a thing called gas rights.
      * Well drillers can drill on your property if you want it or not if your neighbors sell their rights but your property is the only one around that can support a well.

      --
      by Anonymous Coward: I, for one, welcome the shift from car analogies to pizza analogies. um.. overlords?
    3. Re:It already is a major, massive source of energy by Tomato42 · · Score: 1

      You mean the same one that "forgets" to mention that there were federal audits of water sources done in the beginning of last century that found "high concentrations of hydrocarbons" in that same area?

      It more and more looks like the Anthopogenic Global Warming and Al Gore's Hockey Stick.

      It's always about money.

    4. Re:It already is a major, massive source of energy by ZonkerWilliam · · Score: 1

      GASLAND?? You mean the one where they showed that the methane gas in the water wasn't from fracking but naturally occurring seepage into the water reservoir, and the fact that it wasn't even in the same place or state the film was supposed to be filmed in?? That Gasland? ya right....

    5. Re:It already is a major, massive source of energy by sdinfoserv · · Score: 2

      No, it wasn’t naturally occurring. People who lived by fracked wells had FINE water. Post fracking, animals lost hair and died, the local EPA told them to stop drinking water and their water LIGHTS ON FIRE!!. SO SOMEHOW the “component chemicals’ of Haliburtons frack mixture shows up in water sources??? You have a agenda to fool the public. Truth tells the opposite of what you write. YOu're just another energy lobbyist.

    6. Re:It already is a major, massive source of energy by ZonkerWilliam · · Score: 3, Informative

      No, it wasn’t naturally occurring. People who lived by fracked wells had FINE water. Post fracking, animals lost hair and died, the local EPA told them to stop drinking water and their water LIGHTS ON FIRE!!. SO SOMEHOW the “component chemicals’ of Haliburtons frack mixture shows up in water sources??? You have a agenda to fool the public. Truth tells the opposite of what you write. YOu're just another energy lobbyist.

      I wish I was an energy lobbyist, could use the money, just a mild mannered physicist. You don't have to take what I said, look here;

      http://www.energyindepth.org/2010/06/debunking-gasland/

      quoted passage;

      From GASLAND; “In 2004, the EPA was investigating a water contamination incident due to hydraulic fracturing in Alabama. But a panel rejected the inquiry, stating that although hazard materials were being injected underground, EPA did not need to investigate.”

      * No record of the investigation described by Fox exists, so EID reached out to Dr. Dave Bolin, deputy director of Alabama’s State Oil & Gas Board and the man who heads up oversight of hydraulic fracturing in that state. In an email, he said he had “no recollection” of such an investigation taking place.

      * That said, it’s possible that Fox is referring to EPA’s study of the McMillian well in Alabama, which spanned several years in the early- to mid-1990s. In 1989, Alabama regulators conducted four separate water quality tests on the McMillian well. The results indicated no water quality problems existed. In 1990, EPA conducted its own water quality tests, and found nothing.

      * In a letter sent in 1995, then-EPA administrator Carol Browner (currently, President Obama’s top energy and environmental policy advisor) characterized EPA’s involvement with the McMillian case in the following way: “Repeated testing, conducted between May of 1989 and March of 1993, of the drinking water well which was the subject of this petition [McMillian] failed to show any chemicals that would indicate the presence of fracturing fluids. The well was also sampled for drinking water quality, and no constituents exceeding drinking water standards were detected.”

      * For information on what actually did happen in Alabama during this time, and how it’s relevant to the current conversation about the Safe Drinking Water Act, please download the fact sheet produced last year by the Coalbed Methane Association of Alabama.

    7. Re:It already is a major, massive source of energy by drinkypoo · · Score: 3, Informative

      Small scale alternative energy can only work when there is net metering, where you get paid per kWh what you pay to consume it. Where there is net metering (e.g. Germany) small, distributed, eco-friendly power generation is going up like a mofo. Of course, they are spending some tax money to subsidize this, but actually having sufficient power generation is a worthy goal.

      However, the goal here in the USA is to permit corporations to control every power plant and every source of clean water. If they can ruin your drinking water, you are now vastly more likely to buy bottled water for more per gallon than gasoline. If you can't get paid for your excess power they're betting you won't put in any of your own power generation and you will remain at their mercy.

      They also want to be the sole source of food, but we can talk about that later.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    8. Re:It already is a major, massive source of energy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Same bullshit argument, different day.
      I grew up in a small town in the Pacific Northwest. The lion's share of the town's economy was tied to the forest products industry. The timber barons got rich, the rivers and streams got silted and polluted, the old growth forests were destroyed (and won't be back for centuries), and "the jobs" so loudly touted by those industry barons are long gone. On the whole, I'd say that was a lousy trade. The argument that the temporary economic boon is welcome despite the risks is laughable. That deal will make a few folks rich, and will eventually leave the community worse off than it is now (jobless and

      poisoned. Think harder.

    9. Re:It already is a major, massive source of energy by Andy+Dodd · · Score: 2

      1) The light-your-water-on-fire incidents were in Colorado and PA. In both cases they were proven to be connected to drilling. In the case of Colorado, the state-level EPA (which has multiple high-level employees with financial ties to the gas industry) ruled that it was biogenic. The federal-level EPA reviewed this and concluded that the methane was NOT biogenic and matched shale gas in isotopic content.

      2) They reached out to a member of the gas industry and he said he had "no recollection" - it's just more gas industry "sweep it under the rug" tactics.

      --
      retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
    10. Re:It already is a major, massive source of energy by Dog-Cow · · Score: 1

      * Well drillers can drill on your property if you want it or not if your neighbors sell their rights but your property is the only one around that can support a well.

      That is completely immoral and is known elsewhere as theft and/or trespassing. I hope those who steal property this way are killed in a gas explosion.

    11. Re:It already is a major, massive source of energy by ColdWetDog · · Score: 4, Interesting

      You should read up on the concept of Resource Curse. In fact, your region has already dealt with those issues twice according to your post (coal, timber). Yes, you make money in the short term which is hard to ignore because long term your region has gone through several boom bust cycles and you're in one of the 'bust' times at present.

      Shale gas, while interesting and perhaps important in the short term suffers from two significant drawbacks. First is the fallout from hydrofracking. As several posters have pointed out, this is a technical issue and can be mitigated by best practices. Which somehow never seem to happen (cf, the nuclear power industry). The second is harder to escape. It is a very short term resource. In 5-10-20 years (not the 100 year timeframe that is bandied about by industry), the pressures will drop to unusable levels. Yes, you can 're frack' but that's expensive and natural gas (currently) isn't.

      So, you're back to another resource that temporarily brought some economic good to the region, allowed a few lucky people to cash out and trashes the environment for everyone for long periods of time. You all should at least take the hint from Alaska and try to keep the money in state a bit longer.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    12. Re:It already is a major, massive source of energy by demonlapin · · Score: 1

      Eminent domain can, in some respects, apply here. Complain to your legislature.

    13. Re:It already is a major, massive source of energy by hedwards · · Score: 2

      Same goes for Seattle. Jet City just about shut down during the 70s when Boeing was doing massive layoffs because we were that dependent upon that one industry. Since then we've diversified greatly, but we still get a substantial income from only a couple industries and we'll be in a world of hurt in the longshoreman decide to get greedy again. The last time that happened a lot of shipping moved down to Tacoma.

    14. Re:It already is a major, massive source of energy by moonbender · · Score: 2

      Gasland was pretty good, I also recommend a recent This American Life episode on fracking: Game Changer.

      --
      Switch back to Slashdot's D1 system.
    15. Re:It already is a major, massive source of energy by chebucto · · Score: 1

      The facts in your post may be right, but the conclusion is wrong. Short term resources whose extraction can cause environmental damage should not be abandoned because of the risk, they should be extracted in a way that won't cause long-term damage: put your efforts into writing and enforcing effective regulations, and make those regulations the condition for any development. Yes, regulations can be poorly written and poorly enforced, but an effectively regulated resource industry is a much better objective than simply pretending the resource doesn't exist.

      The resource for this extends beyond the obvious economic benefits. As consumers, we're partly responsible for the conditions under which the resources we consume are extracted: given this, consumers should encourage extraction in places with effective regulations. Otherwise we as a country are reaping the benefit of the resource while passing off the environmental damage to some poorer place.

      I'd add that the long-term impact of short-term resources isn't just the environmental impact; assuming they did any kind of responsible investment, Pennsylvania today is probably richer than it would be if it hadn't had coal and timber industries. How many roads, universities, and towns were built with the money from those dead or dying industries?

      --
      The English word fart is one of the oldest words in the English vocabulary.
    16. Re:It already is a major, massive source of energy by Chris+Burke · · Score: 1

      I wish I was an energy lobbyist, could use the money, just a mild mannered physicist.

      Ah, so this post was just resume-building, like musician posting a youtube video of their guitar playing or a programmer releasing a freeware game. I wish you the best of luck in your job hunt.

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    17. Re:It already is a major, massive source of energy by ZonkerWilliam · · Score: 2

      1) The light-your-water-on-fire incidents were in Colorado and PA. In both cases they were proven to be connected to drilling. In the case of Colorado, the state-level EPA (which has multiple high-level employees with financial ties to the gas industry) ruled that it was biogenic. The federal-level EPA reviewed this and concluded that the methane was NOT biogenic and matched shale gas in isotopic content.

      2) They reached out to a member of the gas industry and he said he had "no recollection" - it's just more gas industry "sweep it under the rug" tactics.

      Actually that was the state office, not a oil & gas company.

    18. Re:It already is a major, massive source of energy by ZonkerWilliam · · Score: 1

      Not really, got a good Job with big blue. Thanks though.

    19. Re:It already is a major, massive source of energy by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      Short term resources whose extraction can cause environmental damage should not be abandoned because of the risk, they should be extracted in a way that won't cause long-term damage: put your efforts into writing and enforcing effective regulations, and make those regulations the condition for any development. Yes, regulations can be poorly written and poorly enforced, but an effectively regulated resource industry is a much better objective than simply pretending the resource doesn't exist.

      Oh, I agree. But the problem then becomes economic and political or political and economic. Yes, you can hydrofrack responsibly. Just like you can run nuclear power stations responsibly. Even if it happens most of the time, failures can be very expensive for everyone else. We do need to change the political / economic / environmental milieu to allow for complex, potentially dangerous operations to be conducted in a responsible manner.

      Unfortunately.

      The bottom line is that, at present, most of the companies involved are basically lying. They are lying to their investors (about how long the resource will last), they are lying to the government (about how long the resource will last and the environmental costs of the resource extraction). They don't care because they will be able to scoop up some profits and disappear into the woodwork, cash in hand. I guess that's the American way.....

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    20. Re:It already is a major, massive source of energy by CowTipperGore · · Score: 1

      The same is true for the exact area in which the GP is cheering for Marcellus Shale. In states like West Virginia, Virginia, Kentucky, and Pennsylvania small coal towns remained dirt poor while the coal industry extracted massive profits. Several studies have shown that areas with the highest coal mining activity remained poverty-stricken before, during, and after the mining. Yes, some people make decent wages during the actual mining (both directly and from related industry, as GP pointed out). However, the community as a whole does not see any real economic benefit and are left with a seriously degraded environment, health problems, etc. Cancer rates spike, drinking water is polluted, mountain tops are gone, and virtually all of the wealth flowed out of state.

    21. Re:It already is a major, massive source of energy by ZonkerWilliam · · Score: 1

      Well I beg to differ, but to each his own.

    22. Re:It already is a major, massive source of energy by ZonkerWilliam · · Score: 1

      Not sure who your talking about or what your trying to say, I know that isn't the sub-net I'm coming from. First two octets are 99.170.xxx.xxx to help you out.

  3. Cynics and skeptics are right. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    "In our judgment, they should disclose the entire suite of chemicals," except in "very rare" instances in which chemicals are judged to be truly proprietary, John Deutch, chairman of the Shale Gas Subcommittee of the Secretary of Energy Advisory Board, told The Associated Press.

    Always giving them a loophole.

    But the panel also said the industry's stock reply that fracking has been performed safely for more than 60 years won't succeed in convincing a skeptical public.

    Of course the public is skeptical. I'm a cynic - industry will always lie to protect their profits even if it harms public health. There are no exceptions.

    And continuing with my cynicism:

    The panel said it "shares the prevailing view" that fracking poses a low risk to drinking water supplies because thousands of feet of earth separate fracking chemicals from groundwater.

    The panel was "lobbied" by industry and was "pressured" by the politicians to say that - to put it nicely.

    1. Re:Cynics and skeptics are right. by Andy+Dodd · · Score: 1

      They seem to forget that the drill pipe goes right through the groundwater. I'm fairly certain a lot of these contamination incidents result from improper cementing jobs of the well casing.

      --
      retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
  4. Magic Formula by atheos · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "Drillers say they would like to keep the exact formula of the chemicals they use secret because it represents a competitive advantage" Good luck with that. Food and beverage manufactures were required to list their "ingredients", and they sky didn't fall.

    1. Re:Magic Formula by Ries · · Score: 1

      It is properly toxic like hell. Ask one of them to drink a cup of it :)

    2. Re:Magic Formula by Threni · · Score: 1

      Like coke, you mean? You can just put `flavourings` and it seems to keep the various pointless government bodies happy.

    3. Re:Magic Formula by The_mad_linguist · · Score: 1

      Coke actually had their formula revealed in a court case several decades ago. You can look it up if you want to.

      Of course, it doesn't really matter that much to soft drink manufacturers, since the cost of analysis is trivial. Pepsi could make Pepsi exactly identical to Coke, but it's a bad business model.

    4. Re:Magic Formula by Arlet · · Score: 1

      Pepsi could make Pepsi exactly identical to Coke, but it's a bad business model.

      It may be a bad business model for Pepsi, but it would a good business model for a cheap supermarket brand.

    5. Re:Magic Formula by maxume · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't be astonished if the stores actually made more money selling the coke.

      (The expensive packages of coke retail for ~$0.7 per ounce, their portion of that is more than the $0.0125 per ounce they get for a 12 ounce can with a retail cost of a $0.15. That's the most favorable example for my statement, but a 2 liter bottle at $1 still retails for more per ounce than that can.)

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    6. Re:Magic Formula by rilian4 · · Score: 1

      You're mixing up formula w/ ingredients. No food or beverage manufacturer has to put their recipe out for the world to see...only the ingredients list. These drillers are asking not to have to reveal their "exact formula". Emphasis on FORMULA.

      --

      ...quicker, easier, more seductive the darkside is...but more powerful, it is not.
    7. Re:Magic Formula by Dog-Cow · · Score: 1

      When I still drank carbonated beverages, I would never drink Pepsi unless it was the only thing around. I most definitely drank Coke for the flavor (though it was not my favorite). Pepsi tastes horrible to me.

    8. Re:Magic Formula by fl!ptop · · Score: 1

      Food and beverage manufactures were required to list their "ingredients", and they sky didn't fall.

      So tell me what KFC's secret "11 herbs and spices" are.

      You can't, because in order to protect trade secrets, the FDA doesn't require manufacturers to list "all" their ingredients. You can use the word "sugar" whether your ingredient is table sugar or brown sugar. You can also use the word "spices" instead of listing them individually.

      --
      When you recognize love in another and realize how precious it is, everything else seems so insignificant.
    9. Re:Magic Formula by slashqwerty · · Score: 1

      "Drillers say they would like to keep the exact formula of the chemicals they use secret because it represents a competitive advantage"

      They want to keep the formula secret to protect their legislative advantage. If people knew what they were putting into the ground the EPA would shut them down before they get a foothold big enough for everyone to cry about jobs when we try to shut them down.

  5. Re:Christian Science by SirGarlon · · Score: 5, Informative

    Actually, I'd encourage you to give the Christian Science Monitor a look. It is a well respected newspaper, certainly in the same league as major daily papers such as the NY Times and Washington Post, and has been around for about as long. Personally I think it beats the hell out of cnn.com and the like. You don't have to be Christian to like it. But judge for yourself.

    --
    [Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
  6. Complete list by The_mad_linguist · · Score: 3, Funny

    Here's the complete list of the things the US Energy Panel has Cautiously Endorsed this week
            * Shooting for oil
            * Bristols for oil
            * Peeving for oil
            * Fracking for oil
            * Berkeley Hunting for oil
            * Cork-sinking for oil
            * Motherfracking for oil

    1. Re:Complete list by royallthefourth · · Score: 1

      Farting for gas, not oil

  7. Re:Christian Science by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    What's in a name? that which we call a rose
    By any other name would smell as sweet;

    You are objecting to the word Christian in a news publication.

    I take it you object to the idea of a guy named Christian in politics too?

    http://www.csmonitor.com/About/The-Monitor-difference

    Then if the Monitor's news is basically secular and for everybody, why is "Christian Science" in its name?

    It's about honesty and purpose. We do not hide the fact that the Christian Science church has stood behind this publication for more than 100 years. While some might argue that not having those words would give it wider appeal, to remove them would mislead people about the organization that supports the Monitor. Eddy knew this from the outset. She insisted, against strong opposition from some of her advisers and church officers, that the words “Christian Science” should be in the paper’s name.
    According to one of her biographers, Robert Peel, to Mrs. Eddy, "the designated title was an identification of the paper with the promise that no human situation was beyond healing or rectification if approached with sufficient understanding of man’s God-given potentialities. Nor did the "good news" of Christianity involve the prettification of bad news, but rather, its confident confrontation" (witness Monitor correspondent David Rohde’s Pulitzer Prize-winning reporting in 1995 on alleged massacres by Bosnian Serb forces).

  8. Being tried in UK too by Zocalo · · Score: 2

    It didn't last for very long though. The process was halted back in June after multiple earthquakes, and the UK is pretty stable geologically - earthquakes strong enough to be felt usually make the national news - so a connection seems highly likely. Coverage at the BBC, FT and Independent.

    Still, it is good for a chuckle every now and again if you are a Galactica fan since journos keep using headlines starting with "Fracking Protesters..." until someone gets it changed. :)

    --
    UNIX? They're not even circumcised! Savages!
    1. Re:Being tried in UK too by Talderas · · Score: 2

      Now all we need is a process called "Frelling" and I'll be happy. Preferably have frelling be somewhat related to fracking so I can see both words used in the same sentence.

      --
      "Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
    2. Re:Being tried in UK too by lazybeam · · Score: 1

      I'm pretty sure you'll end up with lots of dren.

      --
      --
      no sig for you. come back one year.
    3. Re:Being tried in UK too by slyrat · · Score: 1

      It didn't last for very long though. The process was halted back in June after multiple earthquakes, and the UK is pretty stable geologically - earthquakes strong enough to be felt usually make the national news - so a connection seems highly likely. Coverage at the BBC, FT and Independent.

      NPR reported on the same sort of thing happening in Faulkner County, Ark. I think they later stopped the drills for a period to see if it stopped the small quakes and found that the quakes did stop.

  9. Have other independent bodies endorsed fracking? by Dr.+Spork · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I personally tend to agree with this cautious endorsement, but because I live right on top of the Marcellus shale, my otherwise sane friends are freaking about about hydrofracking. I'd love to have an independent and evidence-based source to help me make sense of this. Don't tell me about Gasland and other anecdotal accounts. I'm finding that even I and other educated people don't have much of an idea just how typical Gasland-style anecdotes are, how much gas is won for each such case of methane leakage, and just how bad it is to get methane in your well water? Is this the sort of thing for which we have a filter?

  10. Re:Christian Science by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

    "Christian Science", as a religious movement, is approximately equivalent to other not-too-foaming-at-the-mouth strains of Protestantism, with the exception of its rather peculiar disinclination toward not availing itself of modern medicine.

    For whatever reason, though, their newspaper does almost no water-carrying for the mothership, and is broadly considered respectable even by those who find the parent organization's doctrines silly in the extreme...

  11. Mod Parent Up! by 0100010001010011 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    CSM has amazing articles and unlike most of the drivel coming out of places these days is actually well written and researched. The "Christian" part throws a lot of people but it shouldn't.

    1. Re:Mod Parent Up! by SirGarlon · · Score: 1, Offtopic

      Interesting how the title exposes the biases of the potential readership, isn't it?

      --
      [Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
    2. Re:Mod Parent Up! by CCarrot · · Score: 1

      CSM has amazing articles and unlike most of the drivel coming out of places these days is actually well written and researched. The "Christian" part throws a lot of people but it shouldn't.

      Indeed, why not? If I see a publication titled "Kids Science" (or "Seniors Science", or "Science in Mining", etc.), why would I assume it's not tailored for the identified audience? Sure there may be some interesting nuggets to be found, but I would expect the majority of articles to be shaped to appeal to children (or seniors, or miners, etc.). Since I am not a member of the target group, without further information why would I assume there is anything in there to appeal to me?

      That being said, now I will check out an issue or two of CSM, based on the comments here. If they can truly keep religion out of the science reporting, then I welcome an addition to my reading list!

      --
      "I love animals! Some are cute, others are tasty, what's not to like?" - Betsy Schroeder, Jeopardy contestant
    3. Re:Mod Parent Up! by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

      You would expect - and without doing any research whatsoever, you end up the loser.

      As an exercise, why don't you choose some news topic, and go read about that topic on various sites around the world. Start with Al Jazeera, maybe, then hit the BBC, then Faux Noise, hit a couple of those worthless liberal rags in the US, click on CSM, then the Hong Kong Standard, and throw in a few of your own favorites from random countries.

      The results of this little exercise may very well surprise you!

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    4. Re:Mod Parent Up! by 0100010001010011 · · Score: 1

      When you went to the store did you skip over anything sold by 3M because you weren't in the mining industry?
      Do you skip BBC because you don't care about British news?
      Do you skip Al Jazeera because you don't care about Arabic news?

    5. Re:Mod Parent Up! by CCarrot · · Score: 1

      When you went to the store did you skip over anything sold by 3M because you weren't in the mining industry?
      Do you skip BBC because you don't care about British news?
      Do you skip Al Jazeera because you don't care about Arabic news?

      Umm...yes? At least to 2 and 3? (FYI. 3M is in much, much more than just mining, but I probably wouldn't go browse the industrial/mining supply section of their website. Their electrical and electronics supply section is a different matter entirely!)

      I don't get your point: if you're at the magazine rack, do you compulsively pick up and read (or even skim through) every single magazine on the shelf, in alphabetical order, or do you prioritize on magazines that relate to your interests / environment? Would you tend to skip over the 'Kids' section, or the 'Knitting and Crafts' section, for that matter? (not to imply that you don't knit or do crafts ;)

      Same thing for me whenever I see the words 'Christian' or 'Religious', even if it's conjoined with topics that do interest me, such as 'Science'. Religious discussions are not a topic I am generally interested in, so I don't tend to seek out sources offering them. If I come across a well-written article that comes from such a source, I don't hesitate to share it with friends, I am just less likely to actively seek them out for news without other endorsements.

      --
      "I love animals! Some are cute, others are tasty, what's not to like?" - Betsy Schroeder, Jeopardy contestant
    6. Re:Mod Parent Up! by CCarrot · · Score: 1

      As an exercise, why don't you choose some news topic, and go read about that topic on various sites around the world.

      That's what I have informative and helpful posters at /. for! ;)

      Seriously, I actually have very little time in the day available for 'entertainment' reading. Sometimes I'll cast my net around for something new and (hopefully!) interesting, but overall I spend *maybe?* an hour a day reading news and articles. This is actually a lot of why I like /. so much, even if the editorial and summary quality stinks sometimes, because it does pull some 'other' news sources to my attention, which I then add to my 'for later' list of reading (like CSM!). (News aggregators are both wonderful and evil, evil little things, btw)

      --
      "I love animals! Some are cute, others are tasty, what's not to like?" - Betsy Schroeder, Jeopardy contestant
    7. Re:Mod Parent Up! by Your.Master · · Score: 1

      I totally admit I had the same initial reaction when I first heard about the "Christian Science Monitor", but a quick examination showed me that actually it's quite reasonable.

      Still, your skipping 2 and 3 betrays a different viewpoint. I'm guessing you're American? I don't mean this as an insult, just an observation: there's a strong stereotype of Americans being insular about world events and choosing "bubbles" in which to consume information to a much greater degree than people of many other countries with a free press and the average person has enough wealth to pay attention to the news. I freely admit this is my own biased perspective of it and maybe you have a different spin on the same phenomenon.

      As for 1, I didn't know what 3M stood for until just now. I'm sure they changed their name, in part, to avoid these problems.

    8. Re:Mod Parent Up! by CCarrot · · Score: 1

      Yeah, now that I've had a reason to give them a look, CSM does seem to be a little more levelheaded than many other sources. They don't appear to skew things based on religious views, at least in the articles I have read so far. True, that sort of thing can happen in any forum or media, so it's nice to see that the editorial staff there isn't being pressured to keep things 'christian' in nature, despite the title.

      As for the American comment...no, I'm not, but neither am I one to measure my self worth by the number of newspapers I read, or how far away they are 'printed' ;) Does that mean I can't ever be European? Am I banned? :)

      As I said, I have about an hour a day* (actually, no hours this weekend, since I was AFK), and in this time I choose to learn about what may directly affect my family and I before seeking information on which sheik is building the new mega mall in Dubai (or in Texas, for that matter). If I hear about some interesting national or international news, I sometimes google around for more info than the local papers have, but even that is getting more tedious as one has to wade through the ever-deepening piles of wanna-be 'journalists' who think that Wordpress, a copy/pate icon and some sarcastic comments are all it takes...

      I do appreciate the link someone provided to Al-Jazeera, though, I hadn't come across it before. It looks to be (maybe) a bit less sensationalistic and biased than some other world news sources (read: BBC), and their english language site is quite accessible. I'll give it a try now and then, so I can discuss Dubai mega-mall politics with my friends ;)

      *Oops, that was a comment I made on another thread in this discussion. Sorry!

      --
      "I love animals! Some are cute, others are tasty, what's not to like?" - Betsy Schroeder, Jeopardy contestant
  12. Old King Coal had a jolly old troll by dbIII · · Score: 1

    Horizontal drilling is a lot easier now than it used to be so fracking isn't the cheap and nasty option any more - merely the nasty option that isn't really needed.
    In most parts of the world pretending it's a secret mix of chemicals will not get you anywhere near a drilling permit. Parts of the USA are of course special and business can do whatever it likes so long as the words "trade secret" are used, but this method is no longer the vastly cheaper option so expect it to die out even where environmental problems are considered not as a cost to business but something governments clean up at taxpayers expense.

    1. Re:Old King Coal had a jolly old troll by ginbot462 · · Score: 1

      There are other benefits to horizontal fracking.

      --
      Atlas Shrugged : Thematic Story :: Battlefield Earth : Organized Religion
    2. Re:Old King Coal had a jolly old troll by arkane1234 · · Score: 1

      I fail to see how this legitimizes such a thing?

      --
      -- This space for lease, low setup fee, inquire within!
  13. Too fracking bad by calzones · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "Drillers say they would like to keep the exact formula of the chemicals they use secret because it represents a competitive advantage."

    Too fracking bad.

    Besides, there's no need for secret competitive advantage when it comes to energy. They all rake in billions regardless. It's a natural resource and it's up to us to monitor how it's used. If you don't want to be in the lucrative energy business because you dislike the transparency that needs to accompany it, then you need to find another business to be in.

    --
    Asking people to think is like asking them to buy you a new car
    1. Re:Too fracking bad by guspasho · · Score: 1

      Don't get so arrogant. Most likely they will just pay the government enough money to let them keep it secret, then they'll start using it near your ground water.

    2. Re:Too fracking bad by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 1

      It's not the driller who want to keep the chemical composition confidential, it's the chemical suppliers. These are usually small, relatively low margin companies for whom the technology differentiation is critical to their business. If the formulations were not secret the drilling companies would just go out and make the stuff themselves and cut out the suppliers.

    3. Re:Too fracking bad by tragedy · · Score: 1

      Isn't that what patents are for?

  14. Easy solution: molecular tagging by mcelrath · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Here's an easy solution: require oil companies to put trace additives that are uniquely identifiable into the chemicals they inject. (e.g. custom molecules that identify the oil company/well). Then if these chemicals are found in drinking water, lakes or streams, you know where they came from, and can issue a massive fine to the oil company and well owner. This way they can keep their fracking formula secret, and will self-police themselves to some extent as long as the fines are sufficiently large that it destroys any profit from breaking the rules.

    There have to be a few chemists, oil guys, and political wonks reading. Do it.

    --
    1^2=1; (-1)^2=1; 1^2=(-1)^2; 1=-1; 1=0.
    1. Re:Easy solution: molecular tagging by omglolbah · · Score: 1

      A significant portion of the pollution is not caused by the injected material though. It is caused by the hydrocarbons being released in the wrong place.

      Some of the components of the underground deposits are fairly nasty... benzene, hexane, heptane and various other things.

    2. Re:Easy solution: molecular tagging by mcelrath · · Score: 1

      And the released hydrocarbons wouldn't mix with the fracking material?

      --
      1^2=1; (-1)^2=1; 1^2=(-1)^2; 1=-1; 1=0.
    3. Re:Easy solution: molecular tagging by omglolbah · · Score: 4, Informative

      That depends entirely on the trace material used to 'tag' the well.
      The trace molecules would also have to be stable under high pressure, high temperature and in the presence of all the OTHER chemicals used in the fracking process.

      I like the idea of tagging the chemicals like this but calling it an 'easy solution' is a bit misleading. It is an easy concept, but not that easy to implement in practice :(

    4. Re:Easy solution: molecular tagging by mcelrath · · Score: 1

      I'm not a chemist, so I can't evaluate how "easy" this is. But yes, one would need to identify a compound (or more likely a set of related compounds) that is biologically inactive, soluble in both water and hydrocarbons, and not naturally occuring. Perhaps some organic molecules with strong bonds and something odd, like a metal bound to it. Or hell, buckyballs with some metal inside and some OH groups on the outside.

      This idea should probably apply universally to all industries releasing materials into nature. I would bet you would be hard pressed to find any environmental contaminant that could not be tagged. One would also need regulatory agencies to police that the wells actually do contain the tagging chemicals, so oil companies don't just cheat on adding them.

      --
      1^2=1; (-1)^2=1; 1^2=(-1)^2; 1=-1; 1=0.
    5. Re:Easy solution: molecular tagging by deimtee · · Score: 1

      The obvious answer is to tag them with specific isotopes, rather than chemicals. You start getting significant quantities of C14 in your methane, you know something is leaking.

      --
      I'm guessing that wasn't on their radar screen...
    6. Re:Easy solution: molecular tagging by Teun · · Score: 2

      This is similar to 'Fingerprinting' what has been around for years without the need for additional chemicals, it's the reservoir fluid that gets fingerprinted and the prints are kept by the regulating authority who pulls them out when a spill needs to be traced.

      --
      "The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
    7. Re:Easy solution: molecular tagging by T.E.D. · · Score: 1

      Then if these chemicals are found in drinking water, lakes or streams, you know where they came from, and can issue a massive fine to the oil company and well owner

      ...who then promptly declare bankrupcy and stick the locals (or perhaps eventually the Government) with the cleanup. Hopefully nobody died in the meantime.

      How about instead we just not do the things that cause these little human-made disasters in the first place?

    8. Re:Easy solution: molecular tagging by mcelrath · · Score: 1

      Do you have a magic ball which wells you what chemicals cause harm to humans, or which actions by oil companies will lead to harm to humans? If so, please let the rest of us mere mortals know. The rest of us do not, and must find meager, scientific ways of testing what will harm us, and who causes harm.

      I think the best we can do is outlaw things which are known to cause harm, fine things which are discovered to cause harm, and ensure that the tools are available to discover who is causing harm. So, in the other case to my proposal, we must prove that fracking is harmful to humans or the environment. I think the best way to do that is to that is to put tracer chemicals in fracking material, and do tests of groundwater. But if the fines and tracers are proposed first, the profit motive may cause oil companies to discover problems before they become problems.

      --
      1^2=1; (-1)^2=1; 1^2=(-1)^2; 1=-1; 1=0.
  15. Methane contamination? by cowboy76Spain · · Score: 1

    While I understand the issue with other chemicals, why should it be bad if water is contamined with methane? Wouldn't it just "precipitate" (in a gaseous form) when the water gets to the surface?.

    --
    Why can't /. have a rich-text editor? Editing your own HTML is so XXth century.
    1. Re:Methane contamination? by blueg3 · · Score: 1

      It boils out at atmospheric pressure, leaving you with water + an explosive gas.

    2. Re:Methane contamination? by scharkalvin · · Score: 1

      So you're smoking a cigarette near the sink and pour yourself a glass of water. Next thing you know you're 300 yards away sitting in a huge pile of rubble that used to be your house!

    3. Re:Methane contamination? by Jack+Malmostoso · · Score: 2

      According to Wikipedia, Methane has a solubility of 35mg/L in water at 17C. Back of the envelope calculation tells me that's about 5% in volume.
      That is a whole lot of methane that you would be ingesting day after day of drinking contaminated water.
      And probably wouldn't simply make for more spectacular farts.

    4. Re:Methane contamination? by kannibal_klown · · Score: 2

      There are some videos out there of what happens when a Fracking operation messes up. Your water faucet might as well be pumping out gasoline, you can ignite what comes out. Some of the fireballs coming out are quite impressive.

      Think "Carbonated Water" only instead of caron dioxide it's a flamable gas.

    5. Re:Methane contamination? by Andy+Dodd · · Score: 1

      It's bad because it causes things to happen like water wells exploding.

      In Dimock, PA, a water well explosion sent a heavy concrete pad a few tens of feet. Fortunately no one was nearby.

      --
      retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
    6. Re:Methane contamination? by hedwards · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, that's significantly less awesome than it sounds.

    7. Re:Methane contamination? by arkane1234 · · Score: 1

      If that large of an explosion happened, you wouldn't wake up... you'd have a few things already piercing your body...

      --
      -- This space for lease, low setup fee, inquire within!
    8. Re:Methane contamination? by rocket+rancher · · Score: 1

      While I understand the issue with other chemicals, why should it be bad if water is contamined with methane? Wouldn't it just "precipitate" (in a gaseous form) when the water gets to the surface?.

      If methane accumulates in high enough quantities, it can pose a serious fire/explosion hazard. That's why gas companies add a chemical to it that makes it smell so bad -- so the leak has a good chance of being detected before the gas can accumulate to those levels. But in the fracking case, the methane will not be not tagged with an odor. If a residential water supply is compromised by methane from a fracking operation, every time a home owner turns on a tap, methane will be released into the house and will accumulate over time. Accumulated methane will detonate when it comes into contact with an ignition source, like the igniters in gas stoves or space heaters. If there is enough methane present, it will demolish the house and seriously injure/kill anybody who happens to be nearby.

    9. Re:Methane contamination? by kannibal_klown · · Score: 1

      I wasn't trying to say "cool watch those videos," I just didn't quote the parent.

      It was along the lines of "whats the big deal, wouldn't it just evaporate." In which case I responded with, well your faucet might turn into a flame thrower if your not careful.

    10. Re:Methane contamination? by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 1

      Of course nobody mentions that this explosion had nothing to do with fracking.

  16. "Transparency"... And its limits... by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 4, Insightful

    While transparency in public policy(and the contents of one's water supply) is generally better than the alternative, there is a very, very, important caveat:

    Without accountability, and without means of redress(at least sufficient to be useful in practice, ie. typically not civil court for anybody who doesn't have substantial resources, and ideally sufficient to restrain, rather than merely punish, wrongdoing), transparency is basically just a PR stunt.

    If it is wholly legal, or de-facto legal because nobody can afford to sue and wait a decade while the lawyers hash it out, to expose my water supply to fracking chemicals, it barely matters whether I get to know what is in them or not. If I do, writing that retrospective paper for the Journal of Epidemiological Toxicology will be a lot easier for some researcher. If I don't, I'll just have to live with the suspicion that my water's observable properties are alarming, and the local cancer rates seem high.

    Short form: Impunity renders transparency irrelevant.

  17. Re:Time for workers revolution by ArcherB · · Score: 2

    Folks, capitalism is turning our world into an uninhabitable, war-torn hellhole. We need communism now!

    Yes, because the communist countries of the world have historically been such good stewards of the environment. I believe Chernobyl is a fine example.

    --
    There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
  18. Battlestar Galactica by simoncpu+was+here · · Score: 1

    In the world of BSG, fracking is always a good thing.

    1. Re:Battlestar Galactica by Gr33nJ3ll0 · · Score: 1

      Just like RL, it depends on who you're fracking, how they feel about it, and what the side-effects are.... :-)

    2. Re:Battlestar Galactica by slyrat · · Score: 1

      In the world of BSG, fracking is always a good thing.

      Interesting, I always associated it with Netrunner. It was in the flavor text of a few cards and in the names of a few too.

    3. Re:Battlestar Galactica by TeknoHog · · Score: 1

      But this is not BSG, this is fracking boring.

      --
      Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
  19. This is where we need leadership... by MikeRT · · Score: 1

    One key recommendation by the panel is a call for transparency regarding the use of chemicals in the extraction process. Drillers say they would like to keep the exact formula of the chemicals they use secret because it represents a competitive advantage.

    Article I, Section 8 gives Congress the ability to grant time-limited monopolies on technologies to advance the public good. Congress could easily pass a law granting them a monopoly for 5 years on the use of the technique if they will open it up to public scrutiny. They could even build in a grace period where the 5 years don't even begin until the US DoE has finished its inquiry and that no one is allowed to reduce to practice the ideas exposed.

    As a quasi-libertarian on economics, that is an uncomfortable pill to swallow, but the fact is that the constitution provides a mechanism that would satisfy most of the major political factions which is ultimately more important than doctrinaire capitalism.

    1. Re:This is where we need leadership... by Sloppy · · Score: 2

      The industry might not like that. Two big risks:

      1. What if analysis of the problem leads to the conclusion that it's unsafe? The practice might get banned, or they might have to pay for the externality instead of getting the subsidy they're currently getting. Shifting water-cleanup costs to people who drink water is a damn sweet deal.
      2. What if all the competing companies are basically all using the same trade secret? Turn it into more of a patent thing, and then There Can Be Only One. And that's great it you're The One but kinda sucks if you're one of the rest, who Congress just said has to go out of business in order to support your former competitor's monopoly.
      --
      As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
    2. Re:This is where we need leadership... by Tenebrousedge · · Score: 1

      1) Economics is much closer to religion than to science.

      2) Libertarian economics is the Scientology of economic theory.

      3) Zombie Mandelbrot thinks y'all are a bunch of dumbasses.

      --
      Those who advocate genocide deserve every protection afforded by law, and none afforded by common human decency.
    3. Re:This is where we need leadership... by radtea · · Score: 1

      doctrinaire capitalism

      As a doctrinaire capitalist leaning person you should be aware that limited liability corporations are a pure product of the nanny state's interference with the free market. Corporations are created by statute (the various Company's Acts and their successors) to serve the public good. The exist entirely at the pleasure of the state, and as such are properly subject to any regulations the state deems appropriate for them to achieve their intended goal, which has something to do with wide-spread prosperity, not rabid accumulation of wealth at the top (although that's fun too...)

      --
      Blasphemy is a human right. Blasphemophobia kills.
  20. Re:Have other independent bodies endorsed fracking by blueg3 · · Score: 1

    They actually make filtering mechanisms specifically for methane. Since it will come out of solution when the pressure drops, you need to remove it so it doesn't build up in your house.

  21. no, i mean GASLAND by decora · · Score: 5, Insightful

    the film that causes gas industry PR people to shit bricks, because it shows several people, on film, setting their water on fire, and because it has interviews with people who have had the gas companies pay for their new water supplies (trucked in periodically), and because Josh Fox has discussed what happened to those people for daring to talk to him - the gas companies shut off their supply of water.

    initimidation and persecution are not the tactics of an group that has the facts behind their cause.

    1. Re:no, i mean GASLAND by Tomato42 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Thing is, it's not because of gas companies that there is methane in water. It's a natural process that was happening for at least few hundred years.

      It's not like they are without fault, but I give credit where credit is due.

    2. Re:no, i mean GASLAND by radtea · · Score: 1

      It's a natural process that was happening for at least few hundred years.

      Show me the data.

      That is, show me the rate of gas leakage into the water in the affected houses over the last thirty years. Even one data point from a decade ago, before fracking began, would be sufficient. Find a home-owner from the 80's or 90's who says, "Yeah, I used have to be careful 'cause I was a smoker and I didn't want to blow the place up."

      Otherwise your claim is just hot air.

      --
      Blasphemy is a human right. Blasphemophobia kills.
    3. Re:no, i mean GASLAND by Andy+Dodd · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This is why no one trusts the gas industry.

      They keep claiming biogenic methane was the cause.

      1) In the case of some of the Colorado incidents, the state EPA was apparently receiving funds from the oil companies. Eventually the federal EPA came in and tested - the conclusion was that the methane was NOT biogenic in nature but matched the shale gas in isotopic content.
      2) Do you really expect me to believe that multiple wells which have provided clean water for decades suddenly become contaminated with biogenic methane within a year or to, if not only months, after drilling commences?

      --
      retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
    4. Re:no, i mean GASLAND by arkane1234 · · Score: 1

      ... and you'll notice right about here is where the worry stops.. it wains off into a passing thought right about here in the conversation, and everyone goes about their daily lives.

      --
      -- This space for lease, low setup fee, inquire within!
    5. Re:no, i mean GASLAND by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 1
    6. Re:no, i mean GASLAND by slashqwerty · · Score: 1

      For curious folks, there is a video of it on YouTube.

  22. Re:Time for workers revolution by nschubach · · Score: 1

    Not to mention China's little environmental issues.

    --
    Every time I start to have faith in humanity, I ruin it by driving to work between 7 and 8 am.
  23. oh, and of course, plenty have endorsed it by decora · · Score: 3, Funny

    the national association for the advancement of civilization,

    the companies who love birds and squirrels and bunnies alliance

    the patriotic america loving job creation coalition

    the brilliant people who hate losers organization

    the anti-baby-killing league of mothers committee

    and many many other independent groups, none of whom receive 100% of their funding from the oil and gas companies

  24. it could help doctors by decora · · Score: 1

    when they are trying to treat all the diseases caused.

  25. its different by decora · · Score: 1

    the new stuff is using a lot of innovative chemical combinations.

    you can read the articles to see the arguments, there is plenty of knowledge of history found therein.

  26. Permission-- for a secret process? WTF? by Geoffrey.landis · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Drillers say they would like to keep the exact formula of the chemicals they use secret because it represents a competitive advantage.

    And they should be allowed to keep their formulas secret.

    However, if they do, they shouldn't be allowed to inject them into the environment.

    (COMPANY: "I need approval to make a chemical release into the environment." EPA: "OK, what chemical?" COMPANY: "We can't tell you, it's secret." EPA: "OK, here's your permit."

    WTF?

    --
    http://www.geoffreylandis.com
  27. why should you get a 5 year monopoly on by decora · · Score: 1

    something that has been going on for something like 10 years already?

  28. what happened with the coal? by decora · · Score: 1

    it ran out. there are other places we can get it cheaper.

    what will happen to the gas?

    same thing.

    your fossil fuel ideas wont work here.

    1. Re:what happened with the coal? by virtig01 · · Score: 1

      > there are other places we can get it cheaper.

      You might be able to /get/ it cheaper elsewhere, but factor in the cost of transport and you lose. The northeast is the largest consumer of natural gas in the US. Lots of gas exists in the west. Transporting that gas costs money. That's why there's a large price differential in the price of natural gas between those two geographies. And that's what makes Marcellus so valuable: it's close to the demand center.

      > your fossil fuel ideas wont work here

      The post you're replying to isn't arguing that gas is the be-all-and-end-all solution for energy. He's stating that in his area, the local economy is boosted, and this is a Good Thing. Local economies are often cyclical, and not participating in an industry because it will (will, not might) go away some day does not seem like a good reason not to support it.

  29. all human processes are natural by decora · · Score: 1, Flamebait

    its also natural for people with lots of money to hire PR flacks to spread lies to attack anyone who threatens their power.

    that has been happening for at least a few hundred years.

    1. Re:all human processes are natural by Tomato42 · · Score: 1

      Then check your sources, like I checked mine.

  30. Don't. by mmcuh · · Score: 1

    Just leave the gas down there. Do these people never learn from their mistakes?

  31. Re:Have other independent bodies endorsed fracking by Rayonic · · Score: 1

    and just how bad it is to get methane in your well water? Is this the sort of thing for which we have a filter?

    According to Wikipedia methane is non-toxic, colorless, and odorless.

    So clearly Wikipedia is in the pocket of Big Methane. Someone should make a documentary about how Wikipedia has sold out. For citations they can cite this post, and I'm sure you can find enough anecdotes to fill a movie.

  32. Re:Christian Science by someonestolecc · · Score: 1

    Yeah, I'm going to read an article from a "Christian Science" publication. Whatever that is. Skipping this one.

    Translation: "derp derp herr derp" The irony... kind of how I feel about religion...yet CSMonitor is one of the better newspapers out there - they actually have less propaganda than cnn.. (I'm assuming AC is American hence thinks cnn is a good benchmark.)

  33. Air and Fire, Water, Dirt by Millennium · · Score: 1

    Fracking oil shale; how does it work?

  34. Re:Christian Science by Thud457 · · Score: 1, Offtopic

    protip : Christian Scientists are even wackier than your run-of-the-mill Christians.
    Strangely, the Christian Science Monitor has long had a reputation as a reputable, unbiased news source. Go figure.

    --

    the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff

  35. Re:Have other independent bodies endorsed fracking by Teun · · Score: 2

    and just how bad it is to get methane in your well water? Is this the sort of thing for which we have a filter?

    You ask a very dangerous and stupid question.

    It's more prudent to ask "why should there be methane be released into our water?

    Because when proper engineering practises are employed there is no need what so ever for such a release.
    As someone working in the industry I say a frac that causes/ allows gas seeping/leaking into an aquifer is a horribly failed project that's probably going to cost more in clean up than the well's production could ever make up for.

    --
    "The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
  36. Water industry professionals also involved by rbrander · · Score: 3, Interesting

    This is not just crusading journalists and panicking farmers. The (peer-reviewed) journal of the American Waterworks Association, September 2010, which mostly has articles like "Characterization of filter media MnOx(s) surfaces and Mn removal capability", also has an article on "The Threat From Hydrofracking" by Paul Rush, the deputy commissioner for water supply for New York City. It's an opinion article, not a scientific paper, but he lays out his case as if it were.

    The industry's largest concern is that everybody has been forbidden to get involved in the regulation or permitting of these businesses - talk about your big-government incursion into (very) local concerns, like what's in your water source. Normally, water supply utilities are also charged by the state with protecting the watershed, and can do things like bring suit against hog farms that would let in e. coli. Not here.

    As Rush puts it, "...the technical assessment indicated that migration of methane or fluids through natural fractures in the bedrock, some extending for miles, could compromise the city's aqueducts and shafts...Additionally, given the New York State regulatory infrastructure and the rules governing compulsory integration, drillers could potentially receive a permit authorizing horizontal drilling directly below a water supply tunnel without city authorization".

    Being the guy responsible for the water quality, and then having any power to challenge a threat to it removed because Dick Cheney wanted to make sure no NIMBYs got in his friend's way, is fairly frightening.

    The thing is, this stuff won't go away. At least if it were nuclear waste, it would naturally decay. But once they fill up a network of cracks with this stuff, in the exact geology where you know there's pressure from below, could result in a slow steady feed of it up through cracks and into the water, for decades. Or centuries. And you can inject it in, but you can't suck it out; no way to clean.

    It's not unreasonable to study it further before using this technology near much-used watersheds like, well, all through densely-populated New York and Pennsylvania; part of the industry strategy has very, very clearly been to NOT study this issue so far.

    1. Re:Water industry professionals also involved by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 1

      Water Supply? How does this have any technical relation to the field of petroleum geology. Answer: It doesn't.

      This is malarkey. Horizontal drilling directly below a water supply tunnel? Come on, that's an absurd scenario as any geologist would realize. These formations are far below any water supply infrastructure. Likewise the idea of methane permeating rock formations for miles. Any such permeation would a) be miniscule and b) would occur naturally too.

      The oil drilling industry has been using fracking to improve oil recovery for 75 years without any of the problems that the anti-frackers have brought up. While sound regulation is needed, what is NOT needed is bureaucrats writing opinion pieces in a journal that as no technical connection to the field.

  37. Deer Park that's good water by WebManWalking · · Score: 1

    Doesn't most of Deer Park's spring water come from Pennsylvania nowadays? And aren't there also huge profits to be had from selling people bottled water? And isn't Deer Park a division of Nestle, the largest food and nutrition corporation in the world?

    It would appear that there's a big business versus big business feud brewing. I'm pretty sure Nestle isn't going to stand for methane and carcinogens getting into their profits.

  38. Re:Permission-- for a secret process? WTF? by h4rr4r · · Score: 2

    Seems like I just found a cheap way to get rid of nuclear waste. I will just make it part of my new fracking formula.

  39. Re:Shale gas, the right wing's wet dream by Joey+Vegetables · · Score: 1

    If you aren't worried about CO2, you think that burning fossil fuels is OK.

    I'm not worried about CO2 but I still prefer that we move past burning fossil fuels because of its many other harmful effects, not to mention that, leaving aside the possibility of abiogenesis or dramatic improvements in extraction technology, it's not going to be cheap for very much longer.

  40. They've been doing this for decades in alberta by Kaffien · · Score: 1

    This is not new technology. There's not much toxic crap going in there and no one here whining about it polluting their lands. Killing their live stock etc. And livestock is almost as big as oil here. Anyhow old tech is old.

    1. Re:They've been doing this for decades in alberta by arkane1234 · · Score: 1

      So Alberta just bends over and takes it like a good citizen?

      --
      -- This space for lease, low setup fee, inquire within!
  41. Re:Have other independent bodies endorsed fracking by Andy+Dodd · · Score: 1

    The problem is that the routes that allow methane to enter your well water allow other stuff from the drill pipe to enter the water, such as:
    1) Fracking fluid leftovers. Fun chemicals in there like benzene
    2) That reservoir isn't 100% pure natural gas - even before injecting the toxic frack fluid down, there's a lot of less savory substances down there.

    --
    retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
  42. raping the commons, over and over by Thud457 · · Score: 1

    that's why they're trying to suck Florida's springs dry:
    1. frack wells to release natural gas
    2. contaminate groundwater
    3. sell natural gas
    4. PROFIT!
    5. get tax breaks and water rights from state because you're creating "jerbs"
    6. hoover up water from Florida aquifer
    7. sell bottled water to people whose wells are contaminated
    8. PROFIT!
    9. people get cancer from nasty brew of sekrit fracking khemicals
    10. open for-profit cancer treatment centers and advermatize all over teevee
    11. PROFIT!
    12. people go broke paying for unproven cancer treatments and die, leaving their families in debt
    13. get sweetheart backroom deal on foreclosed land by bribing the local tax board
    14.PROFIT!

    --

    the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff

  43. Math error by fnj · · Score: 1

    Comparing a gas to a liquid by volume is not very meaningful. Wikipedia's 35 mg/l is 0.0035% by weight, or 35 ppm. It's milligrams in one kilogram. Actually this source and this other source both give around 0.026 g/l or 26 mg/l , which is 0.0026% solubility of methane in water at 17 C and one atmosphere, or 26 ppm. Pretty much a trace.

  44. Re:Christian Science by Moryath · · Score: 1

    At first glance I thought it said "US Energy Panel Cautiously Endorses Fucking."

    Then again, since that activity is usually done with the lights off, it'd probably save electricity if more people were doing it.

  45. Who needs the Safe Water Act, anyway? by AugstWest · · Score: 1

    "Politicians who supported the industry had tried for years to exempt fracking from the Safe Drinking Water Act, the 1974 law that regulates the injection of waste and chemicals underground. The EPA's 2004 study was used to justify that effort. With the help of then-Vice President Dick Cheney -- the former head of Halliburton -- President George W. Bush's landmark energy legislation, the 2005 Energy Policy Act, included a provision that prohibited the EPA from regulating fracking under the Safe Drinking Water Act. Regulation would be left to the states, many of which had underfunded agencies, looser standards and less manpower than the federal government."

    Thank God Halliburton had a Vice-President in the White House, eh?

    http://www.salon.com/technology/how_the_world_works/2011/06/27/hydrofracking_and_the_epa

  46. Re:Christian Science by Princeofcups · · Score: 1

    It is a well respected newspaper, certainly in the same league as major daily papers such as the NY Times and Washington Post,

    Faint praise indeed.

    --
    The only thing worse than a Democrat is a Republican.
  47. Re:Christian Science by interkin3tic · · Score: 2

    Seconded. It doesn't just recycle AP or reuters stories. It doesn't make outlandish statements just to sell more. And it has less to do with religion than Fox or other fake news services do.

  48. my local area is the same way however by decora · · Score: 1

    one day, the money will be gone.... who will pay for the cleanup?

    look at some of the EPA superfund sites, take Pitcher oklahoma for example.

    eventually, you run out of places to exploit.

  49. of course by hesaigo999ca · · Score: 2

    >Drillers say they would like to keep the exact formula of the chemicals they use secret because it represents a competitive advantage."
    When i read this, the only thing i think of is the BP disaster and how because of such subterfuge, all was hidden until it was too late, then everything was reviewed, and now seems to be swept under the rug, but we never got anywhere , no trials, nothing happened.....no one was hung for the spill.

    This to me will just allow them to do the same with this industry.

  50. may help achieve Kyoto carbon agreement by peter303 · · Score: 2

    Natural gas has half the carbon footprint of coal or petroleum. A massive shift away from these to to natural gas will reduce US carbon emissions. Plus there s an economic incentive to use gas. Bio fuels and solar require huge government subsidies which may not survive in this era of government cutting.

    The main scientific caveat is methane is a strong greenhouse gas in its own right- twenty times more power per pound than CO2. Its half life-time in the atmosphere is 20 years compared to millennia for CO2. I've seen calculations that if six percent of the natural leaks at production or shipping, then it will cancel its greenhouse effectiveness. There isnt very good data as to current industry leakage rates. Some of the pessimists put at least six percent.

  51. I DRINK YOUR MILKSHAKE! by Thud457 · · Score: 1

    the gas companies are fracking people sideways?!!!
    BASTARDS.

    --

    the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff

  52. Re:Have other independent bodies endorsed fracking by TechGooRu · · Score: 1

    Anecdotal accounts my ass. Fracking contaminates fresh ground water supplies, it IS as simple as that.

    When it's something as vital to life as FRESH WATER, it seems reasonable to err on the side of caution, does it not?

    The fracking companies have been ordered by US courts to supply fresh water (in trucks that fill giant basins) to the people who's lives they have destroyed with this process. What other evidence do you need?

    The majority of fresh water that supplies major US metropolitan areas is contained in a few watersheds. These people ARE going to fuck up OUR fresh water supply for PROFIT.

    Get a clue already. When you don't have fresh water to drink, cook with, bathe with, and do your laundry with, it will be too fucking late.

    Destroying water sources for energy is a bad trade. These assholes getting rich off it in Washington don't fucking care about you. Get a grip, and stop being a puppet. Fresh water as a resource cannot be replaced. You need it to live. And you're going to sit idly by waiting for 'evidence' that's already out there, but you're too thick to acknowledge.

    Make no mistake, this process destroys the environment, and destroys sources of fresh water. Fill in the blanks my friends, connect the dots, and see where we are without fresh water and whether a trade for tiny amounts of energy (in the grand scheme of things) is worth it.

  53. Radioactive waste water? by Relayman · · Score: 1

    In all the news about this, I have seen no mention that the waste water from fracking is radioactive (due to radioactive materials with the natural gas being brought up with the waste water). Why is this not being mentioned?

    --
    If I used a sig over again, would anyone notice?
  54. come to think of it by nimbius · · Score: 1

    I cant recall any technology in recent memory that either the DOE or the energy panel in question has refused.
     
      then again when our regulatory agencies are comprised of a majority of industry members,
    I cant imagine anything short of an energy source powered by third trimester abortions being approached with anything less than cautious optimism.

    --
    Good people go to bed earlier.
  55. Re:Have other independent bodies endorsed fracking by vm146j2 · · Score: 1

    Most complete and informative site in the business:

    www.theoildrum.com

    Warning: Reading the posts and commentary there will cause you to learn about the world's energy situation :p(

    --
    "Lost time is not found again."
  56. Re:Time for workers revolution by Wyatt+Earp · · Score: 1
  57. In about ten years by ThatsNotPudding · · Score: 1

    the entirety of Appalacia will look like fucking Mordor.

  58. Methane is non-toxic, odorless, and tasteless. by mosb1000 · · Score: 1

    The use of the word "contaminating" with reference to methane is bit of a misnomer. If by contaminated you mean "not pure" then it's true, but then no groundwater is pure because there are always minerals that will leach into it and alter it's quality. Since methane is not toxic, tasteless and odorless, claiming it contaminates water is disingenuous, as it implies a danger, or degradation of quality where none really exists.

    Letting this "contamination" stand in the way of tapping underground gas reservoirs is not reasonable. There is no real health concern associated with it, nor does it alter the subjective quality of the water. Only under close scrutiny is the presence of methane even evident.

    Also, I would like to point out that the the study in question did not monitor any wells before fracking took place, and therefore is not conclusive.

  59. Re:Have other independent bodies endorsed fracking by sjames · · Score: 1

    Alas, that's exactly why when it happens, the company cuts and runs leaving the low income people in the area to deal with the flammable well water on their own.

  60. Re:Christian Science by couchslug · · Score: 1

    The CSM has a fine record, but the innocently-named Washington Times is owned by Sun Myung Moons Unification Church and their content clearly reflects that.

    http://www.realjournalism.net/times.htm

    --
    "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
  61. Fracking != Earthquakes by MasaMuneCyrus · · Score: 1

    Though there are many side effects to hydrofracking (one of them being delicious natural gas production, another being fire-breathing kitchen sinks), earthquakes are not one of them. The cause of the earthquakes earlier this year in Arkansas is more-or-less agreed upon to be due to the injection wells, not the hydrofracking.

    That is, fracking requires a huge amount of fracking liquid, gels, and god knows what else. Once it's been used, they need to do something with it. It's easier for them to drill a big well and inject all the liquid down there than it is for them to truck all the liquid away to some distance disposal area. Unfortunately, the waste water injection wells have been show to induce earthquakes. They don't necessarily induce them everywhere, but they do in Arkansas and several other places. It's probably best to spend the money trucking the liquid away.

  62. fracking is not the best practice by manaway · · Score: 1

    Quibble: "mitigated by best practices." Is this an accurate or PR term? When the choice is between best practices and higher profits, which will a business choose when its sole obligation is shareholder profits? What about an EPA lawsuit to help fund clean up? That will result in maybe a $500,000 fine in 10 years, which is just a minor cost of doing business when you're making billions from environmental damage; and can scatter that fine among bankrupt subcontractors.

  63. Re:Have other independent bodies endorsed fracking by T.E.D. · · Score: 1

    Even if it were safer than one might think, who cares?

    Do you think your wife and kids will have no problem drinking water that smells funny and ignites?

    What do you think it will do to the value of your house if the water ignites? I suspect you'll suddenly find yourself with a mortgage on a house that you can't even give away.

  64. My Philosophy on the Environment, More POWER by Deliveranc3 · · Score: 1

    I want us to surround the sun, build a Ringworld.

    I LOVE NUCLEAR POWER.

    That said Fracking is just about the worst possible thing you can do, it destroys the environment in several ways. It destabilizes the earth. Pushes INSANELY toxic substances directly into the water table. Renders large segments of the earth uninhabitable in the 50 - 100 year timeframe. It is so insanely bad it's CRAZY. I'd provide a link to an article but just Googling Fracking you can find your own.

    What makes it even more insane that they're doing it near populated areas is that this is one of the most available fuels. There is an enormous amount pressurized all over the place, under the icecaps for example. This is madness.

  65. Industry Problems by knghtrider · · Score: 1

    There are so many things wrong with this industry that it's hard to write a concise response; but I will try.

    • No oversight from SDWA/CWA--the Halliburton Loophole allows for the practice of Hydraulic Fracturing without the need for the oversight provided by these regulations.
    • PA has cut the DEP budget to pre-1997 levels. They do not have the money (or enough inspectors) to insure the safe operation of the wells currently in operation.
    • Forced Pooling---my neighbors have sold their mineral rights, so mine are sold by 'default', whether or not I want to sell them. Sure I get paid, but that's not the point--it's a direct violation of my Private Property rights.
    • Huge pools of these 'frack fluids' (the exact chemical compositions are industry secrets--we know what they are, just not the mix or concentrations.) that are exposed to the elements, to significant rainfall amounts, heck to even joe squirrell or Bambi who happens along and can drink the fluids. Most of the chemicals are known carcinogens, endocrine disruptors or simply poisonous to life in general. ( visit TEDX [endocrinedisruption.com] for more information.
    • Frack Fluids themselves--the 'recycling' process involves trucking vast quantities of them from well site to well site. Each well requires around 5-10 million gallons of fluids, mostly water drawn from local streams, rivers, lakes, etc. somewhere between 0-90% of the fluids stay in the ground, but the rest is being 'recycled' by trucking it to other well sites. .The chances of an accident are HUGE.
    • How about just the habitat destruction caused by the creation of each well pad? These are vast wooded areas--and mountainous terrain. Soil Erosion is a very real possibility. Plus, many of the creeks and streams are considered 'high quality' or 'pristine' resources--used by fly fishermen from all over to enjoy the outdoors and catch wild trout.
    • How about the very real noise pollution? Increased traffic on two-lane (and even one-lane) roads; with truckers who often do not care to provide right of way to locals traveling the same small roads who they meet head on.
    • How about the social ills caused by the fact that rental units in the area have skyrocketing prices? People are being made homeless because they don't earn the amount of money that the wells pay, but their greedy landlords are increasing rents 200% or more; forcing them out of their rental units?

      The actual 'fracking' may or may not be the culprit---maybe it's the drilling process itself that releases toxins into the groundwater. The drilling process releases hundreds of elements--ranging from Radon to Barium and other radioactive material from underground where it has lay dormant for eons. The fluids themselves are poisonous--flaws in the cement casing around the drill holes can allow the fracking fluids to leach into the ground water. There is also no true 'guarantee' that the rock above the shale layer will hold the fluids (which are still under immense pressure) underground.

      Then, let's talk about the 'Marcellus Shale Commission', who's responsibility it was to produce a report for the Corbett Administration on 'recommendations' for the industry. This 'neutral' body was made up of 13 members of the Oil and Gas industry (coincidentally these 13 companies provided 1.4 million dollars to Corbett's campaign, as well as being the companies with the most violations for Marcellus Drilling), several administration and/or staffers who were appointed directly (or indirectly) after Corbett was elected, some local government staff from affected areas, and four environmental or health groups, with only one (Chesapeake Bay Foundation) that you could truly call an Environmental group. No Public Health representation, btw..

      While I would love to see a ban on Fracking (as has been done in other countries for various reasons), I'm sane enough to know the $$$ talks, everything else walks. We need safe practices, with sufficient oversight to ensure that accid

    --
    In America today you can murder land for private profit. You can leave the corpse for all to see, and nobody calls the c
  66. Re:Have other independent bodies endorsed fracking by jafac · · Score: 1

    I hope they frak.
    Please please please god let them frak!

    I want them to frak so bad.

    Then please post the video of you crying about your poisoned drinking water on you tube. I want to watch that too. It gets boring on some Friday nights. It will be teh funny!

    --

    These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
  67. Pointless; GE says PV cheaper than fossil by 2015 by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 1
    --
    A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
  68. trade secrets smokescreen by colonel+spalding · · Score: 1

    I think the trade secrets mantra is total bullshit. The chemicals they all use (probably all drillers use the same anyway, no real trade secret) are incredibly toxic. The trade secrets mantra is just a smokescreen to hide the truth from the public that would never okay this fracking tech once they know the toxins being pumped into the aquifers.