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IRS Auditing Google

theodp writes "Bloomberg reports that the IRS is auditing how Google shifted profits offshore to avoid taxes. According to Bloomberg, Google cuts its tax bill by about $1 billion a year using a technique that allocates profits to a unit managed out of a law firm in Bermuda, where there is no corporate income tax. In 2009, the most recent year for which records are available, this subsidiary collected 4.34 billion euros (about $6.1 billion) in royalties from a Google unit in the Netherlands. A spokesman for Google, whose stated mission is 'to organize the world's information and make it universally accessible and useful,' called the IRS probe 'a routine inquiry' and declined to comment further."

328 comments

  1. oops by shentino · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Hmm, this is well known for a long time, and only NOW the IRS is getting around to auditing them?

    I think Google just pissed off the wrong politician somehow.

    Methinks their goody two shoes nature finally rubbed some corporation the wrong way.

    1. Re:oops by cdxta · · Score: 2

      So they can change them back taxes with outrageous interest and penalties? Na that’s hoping too much of the government, they only do that to hard working individuals.

    2. Re:oops by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Google is neither the first, nor the only, nor the largest company that pulls this exact same tax dodge. I'm not excusing Google, I'm saying that if the IRS is starting to crack down on this the shit is going to hit the fan with a number of larger corporations too.

    3. Re:oops by bryan1945 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Don't a whole bunch of corporations do this? Maybe not to avoid all taxes, but I thought there were tax incentives/breaks for companies to have a global footprint. (Like they pay all the taxes here anyway, with all the breaks they get already.) I, along with my classmates, found it amusing that for our MBA financial class test questions that the corporate tax rate was ALWAYS a set 35%. Then the following class we would do a case study that showed how XYZ corporation actually paid only 7% tax.

      Cognitive dissonance at $45K a year!

      --
      Vote monkeys into Congress. They are cheaper and more trustworthy.
    4. Re:oops by MickyTheIdiot · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's just another dishonest talking point.

      On twitter every day there are people screaming about the U.S. "high corporate tax rate" and they always forget to mention that NOBODY pays that rate... to many ways around it.

      What I want to know is how lowering corporate tax helps anyone at all when such a huge percentage of corporations pay 0%.

    5. Re:oops by AngryDeuce · · Score: 1

      Hey, good deal! I, of course, wait for every other Fortune 500 company to get hit with these same investigations. It's about time ALL of these companies hiding money off-shore get nailed.

      Google must have forgotten to give the appropriately sized "campaign contribution" to the right candidate...

    6. Re:oops by MozeeToby · · Score: 2

      You're assuming what they are doing is illegal. It's entirely possible, likely even, that everything they are doing is perfectly allowable under the IRS's own rules. Some where on their website they explain the difference between tax evasion and tax avoidance; avoidance is perfectly legal, evasion is not.

    7. Re:oops by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 0

      Pretty much. The work that many corporations go through to avoid billions of taxes is astounding. I have a friend who used to work in finance, and I got introduced to all kinds of fun terms like the dutch sandwich, the double irish arrangement; all of which were strictly legal shenanigans to move money into progressively better tax havens.

      Corporations already pay less than 10% in taxes, depending on how good their finance guys are. The fact that Google is getting audited doesn't seem to be a surprise - though a corporation getting audited normally doesn't make the news. I find it peculiar that Google for some reason is attracting all kinds of unwanted attention. I would suggest they beef up their PR and lobbying departments.

      --
      Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
    8. Re:oops by erroneus · · Score: 1

      I think there is more to it than that.

      The way things seem to work these days is one company with controls over one or more politician has decided to use their influence to put some heat on Google.

      This "selective justice" has a way of biting people in the ass though -- Google only needs to buy their own politicians to pull the same in return. And Google tends to "fix" things in a way they don't break again. So I think whoever is really behind it will feel some serious heat in a way that it won't come back to Google.

      The politicians are the pawns in this game. Don't presume they act on their own as they should -- this is what the occupy movement is all about.

    9. Re:oops by sycodon · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      A Dollar says that Google management has major sympathies towards the Occupy morons.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    10. Re:oops by UnknowingFool · · Score: 1

      Yes many companies do this, including one of the most valuable, Exxon-Mobil. There are headquartered out of a small office in Switzerland on paper even though all their key personnel are in Houston, TX.

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
    11. Re:oops by mr1911 · · Score: 1, Insightful

      GO IRS. Keep making the US even more anti-business so that companies not only shelter their earnings off shore, but they move more operations and maybe even their entire operation off shore. Then you won't have to worry about all of the income, property, and sales taxes the employees pay either, because they won't be here.

      We have been waiting too long for the government deficit to completely explode. Continue the good work of accelerating the process.

      --
      This post comes with a double-your-money-back guarantee!
      Any offense taken to this post is at your sole discretion.
    12. Re:oops by peragrin · · Score: 1

      Not completely true. Small to medium size businesses pay higher tax rate than large companies.they dont have the lawyer/accounting teams to not pay more.

      If companies and people paid their share instead of dodging it then the overall rate would be lower for everyone.

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    13. Re:oops by tacokill · · Score: 1

      Really? That tripped you up? Well, had you actually been in an MBA level class instead of just taking a test, you'd have learned the difference between a tax rate and effective taxes. Hint: it has to do with tax deductions and tax credits

      You don't need cognitive dissonance to understand why a corporation who's tax rate is 35% only pays 7%. You just need to read a little bit and understand how the tax system works at the most basic level.

      Once you understand why it is the way it is, then you can start to form opinions about how to fix it (if you think it's broken).

    14. Re:oops by VolciMaster · · Score: 4, Insightful

      What I want to know is how lowering corporate tax helps anyone at all when such a huge percentage of corporations pay 0%.

      If you lower it and remove all "loopholes" and exclusions, then everybody pays it. It's pretty simple, really.

    15. Re:oops by NotQuiteReal · · Score: 4, Insightful

      What I want to know is how lowering corporate tax helps anyone at all when such a huge percentage of corporations pay 0%.

      If the tax were lower many companies would find it cheaper/more convenient to pay the tax rather than go the the trouble to avoid it.

      So, why not lower the tax? Oh, I know - we don't want to give those "evil corporations" a break!

      If "a huge percentage of corporations pay 0%", then lowering the rate can do no harm, right?

      Things are so much harder when economic reality doesn't match political fantasy.

      The irony is that folks of the political persuasion that want to "tax the rich" more and make corporations "pay their fair share" take every tax break and loophole available too.

      --
      This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
    16. Re:oops by GauteL · · Score: 1

      "What I want to know is how lowering corporate tax helps anyone at all when such a huge percentage of corporations pay 0%"

      It would help the small businesses that don't have the resources or know-how to avoid corporation tax. I find all of this rather distasteful, especially in light of the old "do no evil" mantra of Google, but the current system gives big companies an unfair competitive advantage, because they have the resources and know-how to avoid corporation tax.

    17. Re:oops by Synerg1y · · Score: 1

      I somehow doubt with all their legal power, they'd be doing something that would cause the IRS to crack down on them. They haven't been struggling as a business, but if it's part of a larger crack down, I've got to ask, why now?

    18. Re:oops by 0123456 · · Score: 1

      On twitter every day there are people screaming about the U.S. "high corporate tax rate" and they always forget to mention that NOBODY pays that rate... to many ways around it.

      Well then, there'll be no problem with cutting the tax rate than no-one pays anyway.

      Of course in the real world, no corporation pays tax. They either pass the increased costs onto their customers or the reduced income onto their employees in lower wages or layoffs. So anyone demanding that we 'tax rich corporations' is really demanding higher prices and/or lower wages and/or less jobs.

    19. Re:oops by gstoddart · · Score: 1

      What I want to know is how lowering corporate tax helps anyone at all when such a huge percentage of corporations pay 0%.

      It doesn't. No more than "tax cuts for the rich" benefits anybody except the rich.

      Essentially the corporations and the millionaires say that if only they had to pay less taxes, that would free up loads of money on investment and other things, and the economy would go whoosh and suddenly be reinvigorated. Of course, that hasn't ever happened.

      I have yet to ever see any evidence that "trickle down economics" works as claimed. Mostly it just gives tax cuts to the wealthy, and nothing at all to the rest of society. They take the tax cuts, and then proceed with off-shoring and lay-offs, so you get a double whammy of less tax revenue, followed by less tax base. There is nowhere for it to trickle to. Which is why we see a growing gap between the rich and the poor -- if anything, it's trickle up economics.

      Unfortunately, these people's economic world view is entirely predicated on what I see as a fiction, but they dogmatically believe in it because that's what all of the other rich folks profess to believe in -- either because they have a distorted view since they're rich, or because they know damned well it won't work and the cuts only benefit them. So, either they're fooling themselves, or fooling us.

      Either way, a certain class of people believe the solution to all economic ills is tax cuts for corporations and the rich.

      I think it's time we went the other way. Because the last few decades of cutting taxes for the rich and corporations hasn't caused any economic growth -- in fact, it seems to be driving it the other way.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    20. Re:oops by tacokill · · Score: 1

      Because corporations are owned by actual people and those people ALREADY pay taxes on that money at the individual level whether through income taxes, capital gains, or dividend taxes. When you receive money from a corporation, no matter what kind (wage, dividend, contracting, capital gain or whatever) --- that money is TAXED when you go to pay your income taxes. It is YOU paying the tax as an individual citizen.

      The problem here is that corporations are taxed on their profits. Well, the profits are also where dividends (and capital gains) come from -- so when you levy a tax on corporate profits (that will eventually be paid to shareholders as dividends), then you are double taxing that money. Taxes are levied once at the corporate profit level and then again when the profits are distributed as dividends.

      THAT is the issue and that is why people get all worked up about corporate taxes. It is not a dishonest talking point. It is a legitimate question about fairness and double taxation.

    21. Re:oops by Anthony+Mouse · · Score: 1

      On twitter every day there are people screaming about the U.S. "high corporate tax rate" and they always forget to mention that NOBODY pays that rate... to many ways around it.

      That's the trouble. Some people do. The largest companies don't, because there is a trivial and pretty unavoidable way around it: They report their profits in another country with lower taxes. So e.g. Microsoft Ireland will own the copyright for Windows, then license Microsoft America as an authorized distributor, but on terms favorable to the Ireland company so that they're the ones who keep all the profits. Then Microsoft America makes no profit and there is nothing to tax -- you can't tax companies outside your jurisdiction.

      The problem is that that only works for large, international companies. Smaller companies can't do it. Which is why people say to lower the tax rate -- it levels the playing field instead of putting smaller companies at a disadvantage.

    22. Re:oops by ColdWetDog · · Score: 0

      Ah Mr. Koch. Glad to see you've joined the Slashdot community. Are you David or Charles?

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    23. Re:oops by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      something something Google shut out of bidding on MS spec'd project something something Google sued gov't something something...

    24. Re:oops by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The "and people" makes you a Republican...

    25. Re:oops by EastCoastSurfer · · Score: 1

      Very few people pay the individual tax rate either. The system as it is currently setup is simply too complicated. They need to remove all deductions and get some reasonable income band flat tax.

      Also, while I'm ranting, why do I need to file taxes each year anyway? The government has all the information. Send me something to check, sign and send back if I agree. If I don't agree then I can go down the path of filing.

    26. Re:oops by gstoddart · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Things are so much harder when economic reality doesn't match political fantasy.

      That statement works both ways ... just because in someone's political fantasy of the world corporate tax cuts make all of our lives better, doesn't make it true either. the Libertarian view of economics to me is somewhat detached from economic reality, but it is an economic theory that presupposes conditions which don't actually exist.

      So far other than some hand waving with a "then a miracle occurs", I have never been convinced that these tax cuts ever actually generated the claimed outcomes. In fact, from what I've seen, it generates the exact opposite outcomes.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    27. Re:oops by nanoflower · · Score: 1

      And some are even carrying this even further with plans for moving their corporate headquarters out of the country to avoid this scrutiny. After all it's easy to point the finger at a company that is only registered in a foreign country on paper but it's harder if their corporate headquarters are physically in that country.

    28. Re:oops by LifesABeach · · Score: 1

      Google's actions speak for its self. Google is not alone, but they became the bad guys when they went offshore. It is a personal embarrassment to see Ugly Americans.

    29. Re:oops by wintercolby · · Score: 1

      Did you read the part about it being a part of Google that was ALREADY OFF-SHORED that was the tax shelter? No one's going to move their entire operation away from the worlds largest economy. It's pretty simple: If you want to do business in our economy, you should have to pay the same taxes that all other businesses in our economy pay.

      As far as I can tell, they're talking about Euros, which I'm not certain you're aware, would likely have been collected by Google's European operation. I am not an International Tax Accountant, but as a lay person I would say that currency collected in Euros would likely fall under EU or member nation tax policies.

      --
      Most ignorance is vincible ignorance. We don't know because we don't want to know. --Aldous Huxley
    30. Re:oops by ultranova · · Score: 1

      Of course in the real world, no corporation pays tax. They either pass the increased costs onto their customers or the reduced income onto their employees in lower wages or layoffs.

      I'm a bit unclear on some of the details here. Care to explain how they pass the increased costs onto their customers - I mean, I thought a company already asks whatever price it thinks will maximize income? Which, of course, won't change even if that income is taxed.

      And if you tax profit rather than income (or make payroll tax-deductible), there's no layoffs either, because the optimal (for maximum profit) amount of employees won't change.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    31. Re:oops by SleazyRidr · · Score: 1

      If "a huge percentage of corporations pay 0%", then lowering the rate can do no harm, right?

      Then we'd be giving the corporations money!

    32. Re:oops by perpenso · · Score: 1

      Ah Mr. Koch. Glad to see you've joined the Slashdot community. Are you David or Charles?

      Its hardly the Kochs that truly consider such strategies. Look at all the companies that relocate around the US to leverage more favorable taxes and regulations. While less common at the international level keep in mind that such a move might be easier for an *internet* based business like google.

    33. Re:oops by PPH · · Score: 1

      I think Google just pissed off the wrong politician somehow.

      Google +GOP +"underage boys"

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    34. Re:oops by jcr · · Score: 1

      I'm not excusing Google

      What's to excuse? They have a fiduciary duty to protect their shareholders' interests, and that includes reducing their tax expenses as much as possible.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    35. Re:oops by SICKECHO · · Score: 1

      Every corporation is corrupt, and they've taken over America and it's political system. There the puppet masters behind the scenes.

    36. Re:oops by KermodeBear · · Score: 1

      Yet one more argument for throwing out the current tax code as a whole and going to either a simple flat income tax or a flat sales tax. Like any system, it is much easier to hide and do nefarious things when the system it massive and complicated.

      --
      Love sees no species.
    37. Re:oops by Aquitaine · · Score: 2

      A 'huge' percentage do not pay zero percent. You are undoubtedly regurgitating a figure about how GE paid no taxes a few years ago. It's because they carried over the loss from a previous year. If you lose 100 mil in 2006 and profit 50 mil in 2007, you pay no taxes on the 50 mil because of your prior losses.

      If this sounds unfair to you, imagine what would happen if it didn't work this way. Enormous business decisions would revolve around artificial time spans just to keep their profit (and loss) as close to zero each year as possible. At the end of a bad year, everybody would sell the farm. You'd have even more artificial tax-induced decisions than we already have.

      A huge percentage of corporations are not gigantic multinational corporations like GE. They are small or medium businesses that don't have offshore offices or highly-paid tax accountants. They do their corporate taxes on turbotax and they pay 35%. I will soon be one of them as my business is changing from a sole-member LLC to a partnership next year. Guess that makes me part of the 1%...

    38. Re:oops by shentino · · Score: 1

      That's my point.

      Why is Google the one being put in the spotlight?

      Or, more generally...out of all the scapegoats out there, why pick Google?

    39. Re:oops by Sponge+Bath · · Score: 4, Informative

      ...back taxes with outrageous interest and penalties?

      Unless they committed a crime, the penalty is interest, just like with individuals. The interest rate is reasonable (currently 4% for individuals and corporations). On top of that, the IRS pays you interest (again 4%) if you overpay. I know it's popular in some circles to paint government as the ultimate evil in all things, but people will take you more seriously if you start with facts.

    40. Re:oops by Anonymous+Psychopath · · Score: 1

      Some where on their website they explain the difference between tax evasion and tax avoidance; avoidance is perfectly legal, evasion is not.

      More importantly, it's evasion when you do it, but avoidance when your corporate overlords do.

      Every time you fail to pay use tax on an Internet purchase, you are practicing tax evasion. This is illegal.

      Every time you claim every possible deduction to reduce your taxable income, you are practicing tax avoidance. This is legal.

      Do you get it now?

      --

      Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

    41. Re:oops by Jackie_Chan_Fan · · Score: 1

      Its about damn time!

      Audit all of the corporate fucking scumbags

    42. Re:oops by geekoid · · Score: 1

      No, they pay little 5-8%, but they do pay something.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    43. Re:oops by Jackie_Chan_Fan · · Score: 1

      Hey fuck o! It's the businesses that are Anti US.

      They've had these tax shelters for quite sometime now, and the lowest corporate taxes ever... and these pieces of shit still take the money out of our country.

      Its an exploitation of currency value. Use cheap labor overseas, and increase profits by selling to people with higher currency value (us).

      Its a fucking money grab, you cunt.

      It has nothing to do with taxes.

    44. Re:oops by Kamiza+Ikioi · · Score: 1

      What I want to know is how lowering corporate tax helps anyone at all when such a huge percentage of corporations pay 0%.

      If you lower it and remove all "loopholes" and exclusions, then everybody pays it. It's pretty simple, really.

      Or you just remove the loopholes and don't lower it. What, Google's going to close their doors over a 2-3% tax rate scuffle? Please.

      --
      I8-D
    45. Re:oops by Jackie_Chan_Fan · · Score: 1

      Such bullshit. They dont MOVE their companies to places with less taxes and regulations, they simply put a fucking empty mailbox there and claim it home base, while they have their corporate offices in the US.

      The rest simply dont want to pay US workers for manual labor, so they hire cheap 65 cents to 1$ per hour chinese slaves. Its fucking vile.

      Regulation? We need more of it, because there is no fucking decency at all in our world.

      Were the blacks and the chinese enslaved in our country because of OVER regulation?!

      THINK, you fucking twat.

    46. Re:oops by oh_my_080980980 · · Score: 0

      "That deal between the IRS and Google only covered rights the company held as of the 2003 licensing deal with its Irish unit. It didn’t cover copyrights subsequently acquired by the U.S. parent and then moved abroad."

      Thanks for reading the article. Moron.

    47. Re:oops by Jackie_Chan_Fan · · Score: 1

      people are fucking morons thats why.

    48. Re:oops by mswhippingboy · · Score: 2

      It's because they carried over the loss from a previous year.

      We used to call that "income averaging", however, this was repealed in 1986 for individuals. Just another case where corporations get preferential treatment over individuals.

      They do their corporate taxes on turbotax and they pay 35%..

      They may be paying 35% on their taxable income, but that's where the slippery slope is. If I made $1 Million in profits last year, but through creative accounting I can show that I had $ 900,000 in tax-deductible investments, tax shelters, etc, then I'm only going to pay 35% on the $ 100,000, which means, in effect I'm "really" only paying 3.5% of total revenue.

      If on the other hand, your "small business" made $ 1 Million in taxable income (that is, profit after all deductible expenses and tax shelters are taken out) and you do wind up paying $ 350K in taxes, at least you have $ 650K in the bank in which to comfort yourself (not to mention all the money stuffed away in your tax shelters).

      --
      Sometimes the light at the end of the tunnel is the headlight of an oncoming train.
    49. Re:oops by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If corporations paid NO taxes, then people (you know, those creatures that can actually vote) will get saddled directly with the bill for the government they voted for. Seriously. Taxing corporations at all is some retarded procedure to hide taxes from the people who pay it. Because it isn't corporations. Its people. You pay it in depressed wages, higher prices (there's no line item on your receipt that says "portion held for corporate tax" but you pay it just the same), or in restrained stock prices. Which should matter to you, unless you have no bank account, no stock holdings, no mutual funds, no realistic plans for retirement ...

      Any side benefits, such as small/medium businesses being easier to run are just delicious tasting gravy.

      The point is, we have ridiculous tax burdens from our benevolent, but financially stupid, overlords. Letting them hide the burden lets them continue being financially stupid. And in the process of being financially stupid/hiding tax burdens we discourage corporations from incorporating here. We encourage them to ship as many revenue generating activities as they can get out of this jurisdiction.

    50. Re:oops by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What I want to know is how lowering corporate tax helps anyone at all when such a huge percentage of corporations pay 0%.

      If you lower it and remove all "loopholes" and exclusions, then everybody pays it. It's pretty simple, really.

      Maybe it's not so simple. How does the US tax companies that not incorporated in the US? For example, IBM-India is technically a different company than IBM-USA. At least, that is how I think it works.

      Besides, it's not as if corrupt US politicians would ever vote to do anything that would tick-off their biggest contributers.

    51. Re:oops by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What I want to know is how lowering corporate tax helps anyone at all when such a huge percentage of corporations pay 0%.

      If you lower it and remove all "loopholes" and exclusions, then everybody pays it. It's pretty simple, really.

      So the pro-corporation big-money crowd is against it because it closes the loopholes they use and the public is against it because they're lowering the corporate tax?

      In a perfect dictatorship/tyranny/monarchy the monarch could easily pass these, in capitalist representative democracy, it's virtually impossible when there's enough monetary interests.

    52. Re:oops by mbkennel · · Score: 1

      Actually, an uncomplicated tax system makes it very easy to hide and do nefarious things unless the uncomplicated tax system permits judges or bureaucrats to exert power beyond the letter of the law, as in "this looks dodgy, it's illegal."

      A very simple law inevitably results in some artful dodge. Much of the complexity in tax codes is plugging the various common points of evasion.

    53. Re:oops by Aquitaine · · Score: 2

      We used to call that "income averaging", however, this was repealed in 1986 for individuals. Just another case where corporations get preferential treatment over individuals.

      You seem to suggest that corporations and people should be treated the same way under tax laws. Maybe this comes from the facile suggestion that 'corporations are people' because of Citizens United, but it has no bearing on actual corporate accounting or taxes.

      which means, in effect I'm "really" only paying 3.5% of total revenue.

      You aren't supposed to pay 35% of revenue. Taxes are paid on profits. If you want to start taxing gross receipts (and some localities do) then you just drove every industry with high costs and high income out of your area, because nobody is going to pay a gross receipts tax if they're making $10,000,000 but spending $9,500,000 to do it.

      This is similar to the tax problem where you have one person who is paid a salary of $250,000 compared to the small business (let's assume it's a sole-member LLC and a disregarded entity) with a $250,000 profit. Both are treated identically under the tax code right now, but they're not identical in any practical sense.

      Most people would consider one person being paid a salary of $250,000 every year pretty wealthy. But the salaried guy is only responsible for himself and his family. He doesn't have to cover payroll. If you have more than one or two employees, $250k will vanish pretty quickly if business goes south for even a few months. You are not a 'wealthy' small business for two reasons: your potential outlays are an order of magnitude greater than a person responsible only for himself and his family, and your income stream is an order of magnitude less stable than somebody's salary, dependent as it is on your business succeeding.

      As for your example, if you made $1 million in profits last year but had $900,000 in deductions, you didn't make $1 million in profits, you made $100,000 in profits. Tax shelters are a little different and to use them effectively (and legally) you have to be a pretty big company and do business overseas (as well as having overseas tax shelters) because while your tax shelter is convenient for avoiding US tax, it's very inconvenient if you want to use any of that money in the united states. So not really an option for a US small or medium business.

      Unless you're suggesting that corporations shouldn't have deductions? Which ones, specifically? Perhaps you're a fan of Cain's 9-9-9 plan, then, because it eliminates most deductions in the tax code?

    54. Re:oops by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you lower it and remove all "loopholes" and exclusions, then everybody pays it. It's pretty simple, really.

      Seriously? You expect a team of lawyers to remove loopholes while they are being lobbied by other lawyers to include language that creates loopholes? You can't be that naive, can you?

    55. Re:oops by mbkennel · · Score: 1

      "The problem here is that corporations are taxed on their profits. "

      Why is that a problem? I earn money. I spend it on a cook. Cook pays taxes on that income. Cook spends money on gardening. Gardener pays taxes on that income.

      Every stage the money is legally transferred ownership, the money gets taxed. This is normal.

      Since a corporation has many privileges of being an independent actor, as in it can legally own property including money (and has advantages that natural humans do not, like being able to incorporate its soul in Bermuda but having its body where people actually do the work) , what's wrong with taxing money when it changes ownership from somebody to a corporation to somebody?

      Nothing.

    56. Re:oops by 1729 · · Score: 1

      but if it's part of a larger crack down, I've got to ask, why now?

      Yeah, why would the government be looking for ways to increase tax collections in the wake of declining revenues and a highly politicized fight over the national deficit and debt? I mean, I'm sure there's a reason in there somewhere, but I'm just not seeing it.

    57. Re:oops by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In the dream world, capital enters a market because there is a profit to be made in it. As long as profits are better there than elsewhere, captial will continue to come in. Usually this is in the form of new producers, which results in more competition, which lowers prices until there isn't enough profit to be made to attract new capital.

      Taxes applied to such a market affect all producers equally and thus erode all their profits equally. Capital leaves that market, competition is reduced, so prices can rise.

      Again, dream world where there isn't enough product differentiation and everything is a commodity. In the real world you have companies like Apple, who could pass on a 5% increase with no problem, Dell has to take the profit hit, and Great Value has to go out of business.

    58. Re:oops by perpenso · · Score: 1

      Its hardly the Kochs that truly consider such strategies. Look at all the companies that relocate around the US to leverage more favorable taxes and regulations. While less common at the international level keep in mind that such a move might be easier for an *internet* based business like google.

      Such bullshit. They dont MOVE their companies to places with less taxes and regulations, they simply put a fucking empty mailbox there and claim it home base, while they have their corporate offices in the US.

      Notice my example of companies moving from one state to another in the US. There is ample evidence that companies *will* relocate due to tax and regulatory advantages. While it is more difficult to do so internationally, my point is that it is far more plausible to do so if you are an *internet* based company. A data center is the only thing that must be in the US. While it may be extremely convenient to have other things in the US, it push comes to shove an internet based company is more mobile.

      Your mailbox argument is merely a current implementation detail leveraging a current loophole. It has little bearing on an issue that will exist long after the loophole is fixed. Official headquarters and CEOs could relocate with little disruption to the overall organization, only a very *small* number of people would have to be located outside of the US to create a legitimate offshore presence if the loophole were closed. You might notice that in the particular case of google we already have a cofounder and executive who has demonstrated a global mobility.

    59. Re:oops by More+Trouble · · Score: 1

      So, why not lower the tax? Oh, I know - we don't want to give those "evil corporations" a break!

      If it were lower, that that would be a huge take break for small businesses. If the loopholes were gone, that would be a huge tax increase for large businesses. And since large businesses make the rules, what do you expect to happen?

    60. Re:oops by Viewsonic · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure if you're being naive on purpose or what. Why would you lower taxes on 0% tax rate? Why not fix it so that every corporation cannot use loopholes, and make them actually go from paying 0% to 35%? THEN start working on tax breaks? You're putting the carriage before the horse.

      No, these won't be passed on to the consumers. They will not buy the product at such an increased rate. No this wont mean the company will then just blindly go out of business. What it will mean is the company will stop paying its top execs 50-100x more than they are paying the workers who actually make the products. Salaries will become to come in line with where they should be. The country makes money providing the privilege of running a business, the business makes money by readjusting salaries to something more sane, and everyone is happy.

    61. Re:oops by bberens · · Score: 2

      If my withholding is too much (meaning I'm going to get a return) I don't get 4% return on that money. If I did I'd withhold a ton more since savings accounts give about 1% currently.

      --
      Check out my lame java blog at www.javachopshop.com
    62. Re:oops by Synerg1y · · Score: 1

      If this is the best they can come up with I'm disappointed. Also the national debt is nothing new in case you've been living under a rock or something, neither are off shore accounts for corporations, as somebody stated google would be just the first but it's too early to tell. Still waiting for joints to be sold next to cigs ftw. Also, seems the government makes up laws out of convenience nowadays.

    63. Re:oops by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unless they committed a crime, the penalty is interest, just like with individuals.

      Wrong. http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/n433.pdf .

      ...people will take you more seriously if you start with facts.

      No kidding.

    64. Re:oops by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Awesome.

      • Corporations paying taxes is anti-business (because of... I don't know) - check
      • If corporations have to pay taxes they'll move away and not pay anything (as if they were paying anything now) - check
      • Taxing corporations is bad for the economy (because getting tax money will make more deficit?) - check

      I honestly want to get the fuck off this planet, and make my own walled garden in some corner of the universe where these kind of retards would be banned for life.

    65. Re:oops by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Indeed. My $8000 first time home buyer tax credit was actually some $8250. They started giving me interest from the day I closed on the house -- not the day I filed the amended return.

    66. Re:oops by girlintraining · · Score: 1

      The irony is that folks of the political persuasion that want to "tax the rich" more and make corporations "pay their fair share" take every tax break and loophole available too.

      That word -- I do not think it means what you think it means. In other news, a lot of the people of that political persuasion don't need tax breaks or loopholes, since their net worth is zero or close to it. And besides, you could increase your tax rate by 50% for those in the bottom 99% of income and it would bring in roughly what taxing the 1% at half the rate that 50% is being taxed now, which would still be about twice what they're being taxed today.

      Dramatic irony, dude... it'll f*ck you every time.

      --
      #fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
    67. Re:oops by Isaac+Remuant · · Score: 1

      Know that, at least, you made someone many kilometers away, drop out a short laugh and smile. :)

      --
      "Science can amuse and fascinate us all, but it is engineering that changes the world. " - Asimov.
    68. Re:oops by corbettw · · Score: 1

      I have never been convinced that these tax cuts ever actually generated the claimed outcomes. In fact, from what I've seen, it generates the exact opposite outcomes.

      Then you've never looked at the income of the Federal government before and after tax breaks. It almost invariably goes up.

      --
      God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
    69. Re:oops by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, but look at the losses (not to people):

      1) Government has one less intimidating tool

      2) Tax preps, big and small, go kaput (they shouldn't have existed in the first place, though)

      3) IRS shutters down,

      4) corruption down, corporate taxes up

      Do you think anyone in the current or past Administration has the balls to do this or even likes it? I don't think so.

    70. Re:oops by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd love to know that to, mostly on account of the fact that it's bullshit.

      Brought to you by your friendly neighborhood External Auditor and CPA. I've done the audit on several Fortune 500 companies, none of whom pay 0% in taxes, many of whom have effective tax rates in excess of 40% or 50% in odd years due to changes in regulations or valuations.

      P.S. The only corporations that pay 0% are those that had losses last year and did not make up enough in revenue to cover the PY losses.
      P.P.S. Please stop reciting this statistic. It's getting annoying to have to explain this every single time it gets brought up in conversation.

    71. Re:oops by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Corporations don't PAY taxes, they collect and remit taxes. Think about it: Corporations have no ability to pay taxes without consumers giving them the money for it. Embedded costs for taxes have been calculated to add approximately 22% to the retail cost of USA produced goods and services aggregated over the supply chain.

      The FairTax bill, H.R.25 and S.13 presented to congress recognizes that fact. It gets rid of the complexity of the income and payroll tax system for individuals and corporations, replacing it with a 23% inclusive retail consumption tax. Workers will receive 100% of their paycheck. Companies pay 0% corporate income tax and can remove the 22% embedded tax penalty on US goods and services, increasing our competitiveness in the global market, and we all save the approximately $430 Billion in tax compliance costs spent each year. Learn more at http://FairTax.org/

      Taxing income, with the 70,000+ pages of exemptions, exclusions, credits and other loopholes serves as an incentive to move companies and revenue to where it is taxed less or to buy items that have a tax incentive. We saw this with the housing bubble, SUV sales bubble, and with other items that have received tax incentives.

    72. Re:oops by ShakaUVM · · Score: 1

      IIRC, the much maligned Walmart pays an effective tax rate of 27%. Guess they don't have the Obama connections that GE has.

    73. Re:oops by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're right in that the talking point is too short to adequately summarize the argument (as most talking points are). The argument is the tax rate should be lowered and simultaneously the tax code should be simplified to eliminate various loopholes or special interest tax breaks. The corporate tax would be much more fair if it was 20% (arbitrary number) but all corporations paid exactly 20%. The current system of targeted tax incentives and loopholes breeds corruption. It occurs across party lines. Exxon, GE, Solindra. The government needs to get out of the business of picking winners.

    74. Re:oops by slimjim8094 · · Score: 1

      Let's think about this critically. Let's say a corporation makes $8B of income in a year (about what Google does). They get taxed at the ridiculously low rate of 0.1%

      That's one million dollars. If they can save $500k by spending $500k on a consultant, they'd still make more than enough money to justify it.

      --
      I have developed a truly marvelous proof of this comment, which this signature is too narrow to contain.
    75. Re:oops by Algae_94 · · Score: 1

      My thoughts exactly. Perhaps he means that in the case of an audit, if you were found to have overpaid for previous years that you get 4% on that over-payment? It seems a little fishy, otherwise I'd do like you say and put a lot more cash into the bank of IRS for a 4% return.

    76. Re:oops by xelah · · Score: 1

      I think it's unlikely the majority of corporations pay 0%. The vast majority are small. Even among the big ones I doubt its zero.

      But it's still possible that altering the rate might help people. Taxes affect decisions - and sometimes the outcome of those decisions is that little tax is paid. Taxes on profits distort investment decisions and choice of funding sources (most especially the preferring of debt over equity, thus increasing the risk of bankruptcy for no fundamental reason), and there's probably a lot of effort and distortion of economic activity involved in running complex tax avoidance schemes. All taxes do that sort of thing, it's a question of choosing between evils.

      I'm not really a fan of taxes on corporate profits. They mostly exist for political reasons - people feel as though a tax on corporations is not a tax on them. All taxes eventually fall on individuals because, ultimately, it's only individuals that can benefit from economic output - employees, customers or shareholders pay in the end. Why not abolish corporate taxes, abolish taxes on employment and then raise the lost revenue through plain income tax? Multiple tax types mean multiplication of work, and differences in rates between classifications of income means loopholes and avoidance tricks and complicated rules to counteract them. It isn't fair, either. A surgeon earning $500k in salary pays a different rate to a small businessman earning $500k through whatever scheme he devises who pays a different rate to an author who receives $500k in royalties. The big losers would be those who mostly earn money on loans or bank balances - but I don't see why loans should be so privileged and encouraged over dividends and salaries, especially when the income tax system is already graduated.

    77. Re:oops by Machtyn · · Score: 1

      You will get a return with interest if you file an amended return that shows the government owes you more than what was originally claimed. I don't completely understand it, other than the thinking is they should have caught the error themselves during the first submitted return documents. I was surprised when I received an amended return some years ago and the amount was more than what I had originally submitted for the difference.

    78. Re:oops by eth1 · · Score: 1

      A huge percentage of corporations are not gigantic multinational corporations like GE. They are small or medium businesses that don't have offshore offices or highly-paid tax accountants. They do their corporate taxes on turbotax and they pay 35%. I will soon be one of them as my business is changing from a sole-member LLC to a partnership next year. Guess that makes me part of the 1%...

      Exactly... The big companies probably love the current system, because they have an advantage over the little guys.

      We should change the corp tax code so that you get a deduction equal to the percentage of your employees that live in the US. Hire all Americans? They're already paying tax, so no tax for you. Offshore? Pay up if you're going to sell/do business here.

    79. Re:oops by Sponge+Bath · · Score: 1

      Wrong. http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/n433.pdf .

      This document supports my post. It lists interest rates for underpayments and overpayments up to 2006. It calls the interest rate a "penalty" when applied to estimated tax payments (estimated tax=withholding for self employed), but it is still an interest rate and is the exact same rate as applied to underpayments.

      It does list penalties for late filings and late payments but that is a different matter than underpayment, which is what the article is about.

      This shows the current interest rates. One thing to note is large corporations pay 6% vs 4% for small business and individuals. The original poster's claim that the IRS treats big corporations better than individual when dealing with underpayments is false.

    80. Re:oops by jwhitener · · Score: 2

      I have never been convinced that these tax cuts ever actually generated the claimed outcomes. In fact, from what I've seen, it generates the exact opposite outcomes.

      There's never been any proof that tax cuts this low stimulate the economy. The best I've ever found is CBO scoring on certain tax cuts that say for every dollar cut, you put 60 cents back into the economy. Not exactly a good deal, considering things like food stamps put 1.2 dollars back into the economy.

      The real data does seem to support your assertion that the opposite occurs. Data since 1979.

      http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/02/income-inequality-in-america-chart-graph

    81. Re:oops by Algae_94 · · Score: 1

      /. is putting Google in the spotlight to get page views. IRS audits are not new or really even newsworthy. It's not like the audit has been concluded and Google owes a hefty tax bill. That may happen, or it may be perfectly legitimate.

      It's all about the ratings.

    82. Re:oops by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Methinks their goody two shoes nature

      Please, for the self respect of all who demonstrate even the merest hint of a technical aptitude, tell me that you don't actually believe that crap.

    83. Re:oops by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unless they committed a crime, the penalty is interest, just like with individuals. The interest rate is reasonable (currently 4% for individuals and corporations). On top of that, the IRS pays you interest (again 4%) if you overpay. I know it's popular in some circles to paint government as the ultimate evil in all things, but people will take you more seriously if you start with facts.

      No. The penalty is not interest, at least not in any accounting or tax form of the word. There is interest charged on the amount of tax that was not paid and it changes (see below). There is also a penalty assessed for the delinquent taxes. This amount is called a failure to pay penalty and is .5% per month until you are paid up.

      If they are found to owe additional tax, Google will be facing interest on the balance due and a failure to pay penalty.

      Interest- http://www.taxalmanac.org/index.php/Federal_Underpayment_Interest_Rates

      FYI, the interest paid can be deducted on return for the year it was paid in while the penalties cannot.

      And I agree, people will take you more seriously if you start with the facts ;)

    84. Re:oops by Tsingi · · Score: 2

      Hey fuck o! It's the businesses that are Anti US.

      It's not so much that they are anti-US as totally for themselves. They've pretty much raped the US and there are no profits there for them anymore. At least not as far as doing business goes. They'll still sell you stuff, but they have no job for you. It's cheaper to get things done in countries where people are barely surviving and will work for next to nothing. Free trade agreements make it impossible to do anything about this situation. Trade agreements come before the law, including your constitution. Where's the money? Corporations are currently very cash rich, if they cared about the US, they would be creating jobs. They don't give a fuck about anyone but themselves, they own the government, and we, the people (not just the US) have given the whole fucking show away.

      It's sad listening to all these people defending low taxes for corporations. It's so crystal clear that trickle down economics has failed utterly and remains as a recipe for disaster, but people still defend it.

    85. Re:oops by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And if it is a sales tax versus an income tax, then not only does everyone pay, so do all visitors to this country. No more under the table salary.

      And before anyone screams

      but that means the poor with less disposable income get hit

      my take is (except maybe exempting food and medicine) if you can afford to buy it you can afford to pay tax on it. I've seen way too many of these so called poor on government handouts with nice cars, jewelry, fancy phones, video games, etc. If you tax everything but food and medicine, then if you can buy it you can afford the tax.

      And since the rich buy more expensive stuff than the poor, they pay more taxes. Sounds more fair than anything else I've heard

    86. Re:oops by swillden · · Score: 1

      On twitter every day there are people screaming about the U.S. "high corporate tax rate" and they always forget to mention that NOBODY pays that rate... to many ways around it.

      Google must be really lousy at this, then, because according to their just-released 3Q earnings report, they paid, IIRC, 19% income tax.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    87. Re:oops by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This and to avail yourself of loopholes, you often have to do things less efficiently - the nominal reason to have them is to induce behavior that would not otherwise occur. It may be cheaper for tax reasons for corporations to outfit their vehicle fleets with "Flex Fuel" vehicles that never use alternative fuels due to tax incentives. Same goes for a lot of charitable giving - Walmart, etc. donate to build PR and goodwill, but it helps that part of their donations come from the federal till in the form of deductions. This also ignores the number of accountants that can be let go because they no longer need people to find holes in the tax code to exploit.

    88. Re:oops by tacokill · · Score: 1

      Every stage the money is legally transferred ownership, the money gets taxed. This is normal.

      Full stop. If this is what you believe then there isn't much point in carrying on. It is not normal. It is imposed by government, which is which is why our founders went to great lengths to restrain taxes. Remember the whole taxation without representation thing? Your answer is exactly what they were talking about - the idea that government should tax ALL activity.

      Many people recognize that, since corporations are owned by people, levying both and income tax AND a corporate profit tax is redundant. It *is* double taxation and it is fundamentally unfair, no matter how much you hate corporations or their legal status.

    89. Re:oops by kqs · · Score: 1

      If the tax were lower many companies would find it cheaper/more convenient to pay the tax rather than go the the trouble to avoid it.

      How do you figure? Google saved $1B by doing this. If we cut corporate taxes by 90%, Google would only have saved $100M. Are you arguing that Google wouldn't do this loophole to save only $100M? Or even $10M?

      "We'd pay if only the taxes we lower" is a variant of blame-the-victim, and makes exactly as much sense as "I wouldn't hit you if only you didn't talk back to me."

    90. Re:oops by bloodhawk · · Score: 1

      If you lower the rate you remove the incentive to take the profits offshore. 25% of a billion dollars is a lot more than 35% of nothing.

    91. Re:oops by RelliK · · Score: 1

      > Then you've never looked at the income of the Federal government before and after tax breaks. It almost invariably goes up.

      uhhmm... bullshit. Please provide a reference to back up that statement.

      --
      ___
      If you think big enough, you'll never have to do it.
    92. Re:oops by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

      Why didn't Google already move to Somalia, where they have no corporate income tax? Or to Dubai? Or some undeveloped country where Google could pay a fraction of its US taxes in bribes to the rulers?

      Because corporations develop and operate in a country for a lot better reasons than a few points extra revenue in income tax differences.

      You Republicans really don't know anything about business.

      --

      --
      make install -not war

    93. Re:oops by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

      Yeah, that's why NJ and NY, and CA and MA, the highest taxed states in the country, are full of the richest people and most profitable corporations in the country.

      Rich people and corporations locate to where they can get the best people, and best communicate with the best paying customers, and offer the best lifestyle for the rich people's money. We have ample proof that low taxes aren't what attract rich people and corporations. Though we do have ample proof that saying what you're getting wrong gives rich people and corporations all kinds of ways to hide their income, while they stay where they can live like rich people and corporations like to.

      --

      --
      make install -not war

    94. Re:oops by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

      $6B in just the first corporation is disappointing to you?

      Existing tax laws that still prohibit laundering to evade them are just made up out of convenience?

      What are you talking about? Prove you have some reference point in reality.

      --

      --
      make install -not war

    95. Re:oops by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

      Getting busted by the IRS isn't in their shareholders' interests. It's at the top of the list of what shareholders elect directors to fire executives for. And even the corporate limited liability doesn't protect execs from tax crimes they committed "as the corporation".

      --

      --
      make install -not war

    96. Re:oops by bky1701 · · Score: 1

      Because closing loopholes absolutely is a possibility. The armies of accountants and lawyers will just throw up their hands and pay. Sure.

    97. Re:oops by bky1701 · · Score: 1

      The irony is that folks of the political persuasion that want to "tax the rich" more and make corporations "pay their fair share" take every tax break and loophole available too.

      Of course they take tax breaks and loopholes. It would be stupid for them not to given everyone else is. That doesn't affect their argument as to whether or not they should exist. Hell, it makes that argument several times stronger, as they are in part hurting themselves. Did that train of thought ever arrive in your mental station?

      I must say, though, I am against corporate taxes. They're usually just passed down directly onto buyers and do hurt market efficiency. I would advocate that they be abolished and in their place, we increase income tax substantially on people making millions (local companies) and place limits on off-shoring wealth (multinational companies). That's where the real money is and it is far harder to pass down. Pretty much every argument made by libertards (libertarians) supports this, although they themselves do not, because the majority of them do not actually care about the greater good.

    98. Re:oops by unencode200x · · Score: 1

      This is only a small part of it. The biggest cost of doing business for almost all business is labor. Labor is cheaper elsewhere, that's why companies go there. Very, very few decisions about where companies are going to set up shop, move jobs, etc. are made with taxes as a deciding factor.

      --

      Chance favors the prepared mind.
      Perfect is the enemy of good.
    99. Re:oops by Bucky24 · · Score: 1

      I'd imagine that's the case, if they audit you and find "oh we should have given you an extra $500 two years ago", then the interest comes into play.

      This then begs the question, is it then possible to do your tax return in such a way that you get UNDERPAID in the return? Then when you get audited they would owe you money + interest. Though since the possibility of an audit is (semi)random it might not be the greatest way to go about it....

      --
      All the world's a CPU, and all the men and women merely AI agents
    100. Re:oops by Bucky24 · · Score: 1

      Every time you fail to pay use tax on an Internet purchase, you are practicing tax evasion. This is illegal.

      /citation needed

      Didn't Amazon just have a huge fight with CA to avoid paying internet sales tax? I imagine if it had been illegal they would have lost.

      --
      All the world's a CPU, and all the men and women merely AI agents
    101. Re:oops by Bucky24 · · Score: 1

      Being audited is not the same as being busted. It means that the IRS has sufficient reason (or rather, an automated program inside the IRS has sufficient reason) to believe that Google may owe more money than they have paid. Innocent until proven guilty applies to audits as well.

      --
      All the world's a CPU, and all the men and women merely AI agents
    102. Re:oops by Bucky24 · · Score: 1

      This is a good point. Even a simple law that states "pay 9% of profit" has to consider the fact that profit is revenue-expense. Then we have to figure out what expense is (and sometimes what revenue is, though generally that's a bit simpler). And that's where the mess of laws that make up the current tax code come into play.

      --
      All the world's a CPU, and all the men and women merely AI agents
    103. Re:oops by supremebob · · Score: 1

      Or, maybe those "Occupy $YourMajorCity" protests are actually getting politicians to notice rampant corporate tax fraud?

      Nah... I didn't think so, either.

    104. Re:oops by shentino · · Score: 1

      It could be both actually.

    105. Re:oops by luis_a_espinal · · Score: 1

      Every time you fail to pay use tax on an Internet purchase, you are practicing tax evasion. This is illegal.

      /citation needed

      Are you kidding?

      Didn't Amazon just have a huge fight with CA to avoid paying internet sales tax? I imagine if it had been illegal they would have lost.

      Amazon's issue with CA wasn't on paying internet taxes, but about collecting sales taxes on behalf of CA. Two. Very. Different. Things.

    106. Re:oops by Bucky24 · · Score: 1

      Are you kidding?

      Nope. I've never heard of this. Now maybe I just had my head under the sand all this time, but I'd still like to read an article from a reputable source that backs this claim. That's not too much trouble is it?

      --
      All the world's a CPU, and all the men and women merely AI agents
    107. Re:oops by luis_a_espinal · · Score: 1

      Being audited is not the same as being busted. It means that the IRS has sufficient reason (or rather, an automated program inside the IRS has sufficient reason)may owe more money than they have paid. Innocent until proven guilty applies to audits as well.

      This. For people like /. posters who think themselves quite smart, it is incredible how little they know about these things.

    108. Re:oops by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

      Getting busted? - It's a routine audit, most mega-corps are continuously audited by the tax departments of various nations, many of them actually have a handful of tax officials that work full time going over the books at corporate HQ.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    109. Re:oops by mr1911 · · Score: 1

      Well, actually I do run a business. A small corporation, in fact. And we take advantage of every tax break possible, just as everyone should do with their personal income tax. Call them loopholes if you will, which is what folks tend to call breaks for others.

      The fact is that raising the corporate tax rate simply increases a businesses cost without any incremental increase in revenue. When this happens, most businesses must cut costs in order to stay in business. Labor is often a large area of cost, and is often targeted. So, when my corporate rate goes up, someone loses hours or even worse, their job. This not only takes away the personal taxes they were paying, but often leads to them further draining government coffers by relying on unemployment and other social services.

      Don't assume that every corporation that will see their taxes increase has the same cash reserves and profit margins that Google does. A short sighted "fix" against a few pet peeve companies of yours will certainly do more harm than good for the rest of the business landscape.

      Google hasn't left completely because they are taking advantage of the tax breaks, or loopholes as you call them. Close those, and you might just see them leave.

      Just because I say something you disagree with does not mean I do not know what I am talking about. But the fact that you made a stereotype that digressed into an attempt at insult shows you are not here to gain anything other than some self-satisfaction from being abrasive.

      --
      This post comes with a double-your-money-back guarantee!
      Any offense taken to this post is at your sole discretion.
    110. Re:oops by luis_a_espinal · · Score: 1

      Are you kidding?

      Nope. I've never heard of this. Now maybe I just had my head under the sand all this time, but I'd still like to read an article from a reputable source that backs this claim. That's not too much trouble is it?

      Not at all. Short summary. Your state might (or might not) require you to write a check for an unpaid sale/use tax (specific to your state and county) whenever you order something online (unless the seller/retailer collects that tax for you.) An even shorter summary: if the seller (either in person, online or through a sales/order magazine) doesn't collect a sale/use tax from your purchase, chances are you are obligated - by the laws of your location - to calculate that tax and mail it to your local/state tax collection agency.

      Google to the rescue:

      At the federal level, with the onus on the seller:

      http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/industries/article/0,,id=209348,00.html

      Internet Sales are Taxable Misinformation about laws such as the prohibition of the taxation of Internet access (Internet Tax Freedom Act) and limiting sales tax on interstate sales have lead some to incorrectly believe that Internet sales income is not subject to income tax.

      An online business may be subject to liabilities for income tax, self-employment tax, employment tax, or excise tax. Your sales may result in capital gains, nondeductible personal losses, or you may have ordinary business income.

      At the state/local level, similar sales taxes on income might apply to an online seller. In addition to that (and unlike the federal level), a state or local government might require a *sales* or *use* taxes on the purchaser (including on online purchases of items), *and might require the seller* to collect that on the state/county's behalf. In our case here in FL, we pay a between 6% and 7% depending on the county.

      http://dor.myflorida.com/dor/taxes/sales_tax.html

      Sales Tax

      Each sale, admission charge, storage, or rental is taxable unless the transaction is exempt. Sales tax is added to the price of the taxable goods or service and collected from the purchaser at the time of sale. Florida's general sales tax rate is 6 percent.

      Use Tax

      Use tax is due on the use or consumption of taxable goods or services when sales tax was not paid at the time of purchase. For example:

      If you buy a taxable item in Florida and didn't pay sales tax, you owe use tax.

      If you buy an item tax-exempt intending to resell it and then use the item in your business or for personal use, you owe use tax.

      If you buy a taxable item outside Florida and bring or have it delivered into this state and you didn't pay sales tax on the item, you owe use tax.

      Although this particular, state-specific tax regulation does not make any explicit mentioning of online sales or purchases, it is inclusive for all state sales and purchases unless explicitly stated as exempt.

      http://jacksonville.com/news/florida/2011-08-11/story/florida-wants-collect-its-sales-tax-online-buys

      Just because there isn't a Florida sales tax charge on certain online purchases doesn't mean the buyer doesn't owe the tax. Though many buyers don't know it, they are on the hook to scratch a check to Tallahassee for 6 percent of the purchase or pay it online. Consumers voluntarily paid about $8.7 million last year - pennies on the dollar compared to the $1 billion to $2 billion some estimate goes uncollected every year.

      Still, the chance of Fl

    111. Re:oops by Bucky24 · · Score: 1

      Interesting... Thanks for the info.

      --
      All the world's a CPU, and all the men and women merely AI agents
    112. Re:oops by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

      Exactly, one of the major considerations is infrastructure and governments often make sweetheart deals on it to attract corporate investment in their area. There's also absolutely no reason a mega-corp needs to evade taxation when the rules are such that they can legally avoid it. Clearly mega-corps are paying their legal share if not their fair share, but ultimately it's the government who makes (or fails to make) the rules.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    113. Re:oops by perpenso · · Score: 1

      Yeah, that's why NJ and NY, and CA and MA, the highest taxed states in the country, are full of the richest people and most profitable corporations in the country.

      California's success is due to its policies and investments during the 1950s and 60s, its more recent policies have been undoing these former gains. In other words California is like a kid who inherited grandpa's fortune and is squandering it.

      I did a google and found the following article. What follows is a very small sampling of the article.

      A quote that directly supports my point.
      "LegalZoom.com Inc. said in April that it's about to leave Hollywood/Los Angeles after a lengthy dispute over city taxes. A company official said: “With this business tax, the economic costs don’t justify staying here. Physical location is not important to us as an Internet business ... the Austin American-Statesman reported that 35 of the company's 400 employees asked to move to Austin — many more than expected — and that made a big difference in the decision to select Austin, according to Mike Wilson, vice president of operations. Now they're getting settled in Austin, with some buying homes for the first time. Wilson said: "We never expected that many people would want to relocate. . . . We take that as a sign that we made the right decision.”"

      Another online company relocating "overnight".
      "Modern Living ... moved to Richmond, Va., on the same day it came under new ownership ... The online company specializes in children's high-end furniture, toys and gifts ... “We closed and moved it here on the same day we bought it in July. It is too expensive to have employees or nexus in California versus other regions of the country.”

      Rich hollywood types may live in California but they don't make their movies there.
      "Twentieth Century Props went out of business as film-making has moved to lower-cost states. "

      "McAfee, Inc., HQ’d in Santa Clara, made a remarkably candid admission in March 2010 when it acknowledged that it intentionally avoids hiring in California. The company has transferred entire departments elsewhere and saves about 30 to 40% every time the company hires outside of the state. Texas is one of the locations to which McAfee has moved."

      "Novellus Inc. is making investment decisions not just on what California policies are now but also on what they are expected to be in the future. Novellus is closing its San Jose production facility and is shifting all work to Tualatin, Oregon, in 2010. The company said California’s budget crisis is partly to blame for the decision to move jobs out of high-cost California."

      "Intel Corp., closed its Santa Clara chip factory, which Bloomberg News said "closes the books on Silicon Valley’s history as the manufacturing hub of the U.S. technology industry." Bloomberg added: "The strip between San Francisco and San Jose -- once a major fruit growing center -- was populated by the plants of Intel, Advanced Micro Devices Inc. and National Semiconductor Corp. starting in the 1960s. Those factories slowly became obsolete, and were replaced by plants in Texas, Oregon, Arizona, Germany and Asia. . . . [Intel] has its most modern plants in New Mexico, Oregon, Arizona, Israel and Ireland."

      "Numira Biosciences moved from Irvine to Salt Lake City. According to the Orange County Register, "CEO Michael Beeuwsaert said the major reasons for the move were 'taxes, quality of life and ability to recruit quality people.' He added, 'The tipping point was when someone from the Orange County tax (assessor) wanted to see our facility to tax every piece of equipment I had.' (It’s called the business property tax.) 'In Salt Lake City at my first networking event I met the mayor and the president of the Utah Senate, and they asked what they could do to help me. No (elected official) ever asked me that in

    114. Re:oops by djlowe · · Score: 2

      Maybe this comes from the facile suggestion that 'corporations are people' because of Citizens United, but it has no bearing on actual corporate accounting or taxes.

      You seem to be arguing that this is a good thing. It is not, and here's why: Corporations are citizens, at least in the US, and have been for a very long time. You summed up the problem very nicely: "it has no bearing on actual corporate accounting or taxes."

      In effect, the US now has a two-tier citizenry - the "human citizens" and the "corporate citizens", yet corporate citizens get preferential treatment under the law.

      As someone already pointed out, a corporation pays income tax on profits, which is fundamentally defined as "Gross income minus expenses", of which salary/wage costs are included, and so are immediately removed from gross profit.

      Now, consider the case of a typical human citizen. Their income is considered to be pure profit at the outset, despite the fact that, in an accounting sense, it is a simple exchange of time/labor/skills for money, and so would, in any sane world, be an even exchange.

      They are not able to avail themselves of the same treatment as corporate citizens, because according to the IRS, their time has no value as an expense as individuals, even though it does for the corporations that employ them.

      Call me crazy, but if that doesn't prove that corporate citizens are given preferential treatment over human citizens in the US, I don't know what does.

      You aren't supposed to pay 35% of revenue. Taxes are paid on profits.

      That leads me to one of my favorite quotes, from Animal Farm: "All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others." Or, in this case: "All citizens are equal but some citizens are more equal than others."

      Human citizens are told what their expenses can be as a percentage of gross income/profit, in the form of deductions in set amounts, because for human citizens they are treated as one and the same: Gross income for human citizens equals net profit, for the most part.

      But the salaried guy is only responsible for himself and his family. He doesn't have to cover payroll.

      Sure he does, only the payroll for him is individual - he covers it by working. If he doesn't work, he doesn't get paid.

      Unless you're suggesting that corporations shouldn't have deductions?

      *I* certainly am not, I have no problems in general with the way corporate citizens are allowed to calculate profits. The problem that I have is that because of the two-tiered nature of citizenry in the US, such laws are now inherently biased in favor of corporations, and not only when it comes to taxation.

      You, and people like you, believe that corporate citizens should be given special treatment, because of the benefits they bring to the economy. However, such benefits could not be realized without the human citizens that work for them. Why shouldn't they be treated equally under the law? After all, unlike corporate citizens, which can be effectively immortal, human citizens give up the only thing that any human being truly possesses: Their life, expressed in part as time working, in exchange for the money needed to live in our society.

      Such an exchange, while necessary, can hardly be considered profit when viewed in human terms.

      And therein lies the true problem, I think. We've lost the concept of individual human dignity, the idea that human lives are valuable, and replaced it with the amorality of corporations upon whom most of us now depend to live.We've given them unparalleled power over our lives, over our government, with next to no accountability, and in return have become serfs at best, slaves at worst, to legal fictions created by the greedy and self-centered, aided and abetted by the politicians we've trusted for so long to represent us.

      Regards,

      dj

    115. Re:oops by jcr · · Score: 1

      >Getting busted by the IRS isn't in their shareholders' interests.

      Why are you assuming that the IRS is acting on anything more than wishful thinking here?

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    116. Re:oops by jcr · · Score: 1

      It means that the IRS has sufficient reason (or rather, an automated program inside the IRS has sufficient reason) to believe that Google may owe more money than they have paid

      Nope. Audits aren't based on probable cause.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    117. Re:oops by Algae_94 · · Score: 1

      interesting idea. So you file your taxes in a way to get underpaid to get the interest after an audit. Total loss if no audit, but gain if there is one, so you'd also have to file in a way to get an extremely high chance of being audited. I'm sure its possible, but I don't like the downside of not being audited and losing out on the underpayment. Did I just say I don't like the idea of NOT being audited? What a bizarre thought experiment.

    118. Re:oops by Bucky24 · · Score: 1

      Well I didn't say it was a GOOD idea. Just an interesting one.

      --
      All the world's a CPU, and all the men and women merely AI agents
    119. Re:oops by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm afraid both you and GP are vastly simplifying, and in an incorrect way, what is a really complex issue. Corporate taxes, especially for international companies, is not a simple matter of calculating earnings times US tax rate.

      US corporate tax is high by international comparison, however you measure it. US companies, even after tax breaks, generally pay more than they would internationally. Many companies do pay over 30% income tax, especially if they don't have much international presence (which can vastly lower taxes depending on where their revenue comes from). A lot of companies that pay 0% tax are not making money (or at least, not making much), and that's why they're not paying taxes (keep in mind corporations are only taxed on earnings, not on revenue). There are also a number of activities that have different tax and accounting treatment, so you can end up with weird effective tax rates when your reported earnings are different from what the IRS sees.

      Beware of selective sampling--the media reports when a corporation pays low taxes, not when they pay "normal" taxes (or high taxes, which can happen in some situations). You might know GE's effective tax rate last year, but do you know Coca-Cola's? McDonalds? Goldman Sachs? 23%, 28%, 35.2% (higher than 35% because they had non-tax deductible losses!)

      There is a very legitimate argument to be made that lowering the US corporate tax rate to be more in line with other developed countries would be an overall good thing for the US, as the incentives for tax arbitrage are reduced, and more US business operations would be kept in the US.

    120. Re:oops by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They probably won't get nailed. Big companies have tons of lawyers whose job is to figure out LEGAL ways of avoiding taxes (or perhaps "optimizing" is a less loaded word). It's not like they're doing lots of shady things under the table hoping the IRS doesn't catch them... business in the US doesn't work like that.

    121. Re:oops by shentino · · Score: 1

      Thing is that rich folks can take advantage of more loopholes and tax breaks than poor folks can.

      It's not ironic at all, it's a disadvantaged group bitching about having to play on an uneven playing field, and rightly so. If the pot is calling the kettle black, it's a pretty damn bigger of a kettle than the pot is.

      It doesn't help them either that the rich team has the referees on their own payroll (regulatory capture) and even has members on the rules committee getting their own pet regulations published in the rulebooks (lobbyists writing laws that politicians rubber stamp).

      Which would be more damaging to the economy anyway?

      Taxing poor people that have to fight and save to keep every hard earned penny, so that they spend even less than they would if they got to keep everything?

      Or taxing rich people with shitloads of passive income that are more like money fountains than they are merely rich, and who, if their classwise subordinates got to keep and spend more of their own money, might even come out ahead if they got levied with taxes instead of their customers?

      Remember, businesses run by rich people earn *their* money catering to customers spending their hard earned wages when they go shopping for goods and services.

      Yes, government needs paid for, but that's simply all it is. A bill to the public for the service of civilization. And like it or not, the rich can afford to pay more in taxes, both raw dollars and in tax rates, than poor people can.

      Not to mention that since rich people are rarer than poor people, you can probably pare down the size of the IRS while you're at it if you have fewer taxpayers to keep track of.

      The argument that taxing the rich will disincentive innovation and enterpreneurhood only applies if joining the elite is made difficult. There shouldn't be a hard edge or bracket to cross. Use a smooth mathematical formula that makes the taxing process painless for the poor seeking to become rich.

      Example:

      Old broken method: Onerous regulations of businesses that exceed X number of employees, no appreciation for the strain of actually jumping over that hurdle.

      New, smooth method: Realize that government regulation IS burdensome, so give businesses a tax credit (not just a deduction) for the costs of regulatory compliance, and have that tax credit taperingly ooze down to zero as the company grows.

      Result: Budding enterpreneurs get training wheels and crutches while they grow their businesses, and don't get hurdle shy when the time comes to grow.

    122. Re:oops by shentino · · Score: 1

      Booming business requires paying customers.

      Paying customers have to get their money from somewhere.

    123. Re:oops by HappyPsycho · · Score: 1

      Not really a total loss, as long as you get audited at some point the money comes back into play.

      And yes it does sound bizarre...

    124. Re:oops by Fastolfe · · Score: 1

      It means that the IRS has sufficient reason (or rather, an automated program inside the IRS has sufficient reason) to believe that Google may owe more money than they have paid

      Nope. Audits aren't based on probable cause.

      -jcr

      Are you saying that audits of this type can be done randomly, or that when the OP said "sufficient reason" he meant "probable cause"?

    125. Re:oops by Fastolfe · · Score: 1

      I think a lot of people fail to realize that most of these "loopholes" were intentionally put into place, arguably for laudable reasons. Any time the government wants to create an incentive for businesses (or individuals) to do something, like buy a "clean" vehicle, or move jobs to your home town, they play with the tax code to give deductions that create that incentive. In that respect, those "loopholes" serve a perfectly legitimate purpose. If you were to wipe the slate clean and start over with a flat tax system today, how long do you think it would be before some new incentive was added to the system?

    126. Re:oops by Aquitaine · · Score: 1

      You, and people like you, believe that corporate citizens should be given special treatment, because of the benefits they bring to the economy.

      I don't accept the notion of a 'corporate citizen.' I run two small corporations. The one and only reason they are corporations is so that, for accounting and legal reasons, there is a line between 'stuff belonging to Aquitaine' and 'stuff belonging to AquitaineCorp' so that if my businesses fail, I will be out of a job and a lot of money, but I will not have to worry that I might lose my house and enter personal bankruptcy. Even so, running a company is a huge gamble, because it means you're putting in well north of what most people would accept in a salaried job and you may not see any corresponding payoff for a long time, if ever. But that makes sense - it was my choice to go into business for myself.

      At no point in the last five years of running a business have my personal feelings about who should be given what kind of treatment entered into the equation. There are really only a couple choices once you start doing any significant amount of business each year (say, north of $20,000), and those are 'what flavor of corporation' choices. If you don't incorporate, you're personally liable for everything your business does. This is fine in a small company but not fine in a larger one where you'd be making one person (or even a dozen people) personally liable for hundreds if not thousands of corporate agents. This is impossible and you'd be sending honest people to jail on a regular basis.

      You, and people like you, believe that corporate citizens should be given special treatment, because of the benefits they bring to the economy. However, such benefits could not be realized without the human citizens that work for them. Why shouldn't they be treated equally under the law?

      I don't know how you would make them equal under tax law because they aren't the same things, even if you try to give them the same name. One person and a salary is not a 'payroll of one' because you say it is. You are not contractually obligated to yourself for your salary; your employer is, and if they don't pay it, you can sue the them. A person and his or her family has expenses but these are not comparable to the cost of doing business. This isn't apples and oranges - it's apples and rocket ships. Under no circumstances does one person ever have to be on the hook to pay thousands of people thousands of dollars every month. A person does not have to, in the course of providing for themselves and their families, acquire very much in the way of machinery, office space, an HR department, attorneys, permits, and property -- and when a person does occasionally need those things, they need one of them, and it's a big deal.

      I, and people like me -- that is, people who actually run corporations and have a passing familiarity with the legal and financial requirements of doing so -- understand that a corporation is not the same thing as a human being, whether or not there is some legal universe in which they may be equated for the purpose of application of certain laws. It's hilarious to me that a lot of people who want to see an end to corporate lobbying (of which I would be one) also want the government to hand out billions of dollars to green energy companies and other political favorites. If you want people to stop trying to take over the gravy train, stop running the gravy train every hour.

      We've given them unparalleled power over our lives, over our government, with next to no accountability, and in return have become serfs at best, slaves at worst, to legal fictions created by the greedy and self-centered, aided and abetted by the politicians we've trusted for so long to represent us.

      I guess that sounds good if you're occupying Wall Street but it's irrelevant as well as meaningless to somebody whose day-to-day concerns involve making payroll and trying to run the kind of shop where

    127. Re:oops by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      Every time you fail to pay use tax on an Internet purchase, you are practicing tax evasion. This is illegal.

      I'm from a state without a sales tax, you insensitive clod!

    128. Re:oops by cynyr · · Score: 1

      so make it 7% of gross income. This also has the side effect of making hundreds of shell companies unattractive.

      --
      All of the above was encrypted with a Quad ROT-13 method. Unauthorized decryption is in violation of the DMCA.
    129. Re:oops by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Over-withholding is not the government's mistake, it's yours when you elected too few deductions On your W-4. The government only pays interest when it's their fault, e.g. Last year they were very delayed processing my return, so much so that they paid interest on my refund for the period between their statutory commitment to have the refund sent and when they actually sent it.

    130. Re:oops by Anonymous+Psychopath · · Score: 1

      Every time you fail to pay use tax on an Internet purchase, you are practicing tax evasion. This is illegal.

      I'm from a state without a sales tax, you insensitive clod!

      Then you aren't failing to pay use tax. Lucky.

      --

      Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

    131. Re:oops by Synerg1y · · Score: 1

      $6B from one of THE corporations, there's only a few the size of google, and $6 doesn't phase anything in our economy, we are based off wall street and if anything finding google to be committing fraud would cause their stock to drop causing loss on wall street, but supposedly there's a rule to that where the money isn't quite gone, but I'm not an expert.

      Seems more like google has a rainy day fund for when shit hits the fan in the states than anything, if you had a lot of eggs would u put them all in one basket? 6B to google isn't that epic either, why not evade / avoid on $100B to maximize profit from evasion?

      It's the government there's nothing to prove, look at the laws being passed, is the world becoming a better place? or is the government trying to make more $ off its own citizens to fund itself?

  2. lol Wut? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The real question here is who did they piss off...

    This type of crap is a usual M.O. of just about every big corporation out there. Like in most big corporate matters the government simply looks the other way (and then goes and beats up on the small businesses again).

  3. Loopholes by Joce640k · · Score: 2

    I assume the reason they don't close these tax loopholes is because they're the same loopholes used by senators, congressmen, etc.

    --
    No sig today...
    1. Re:Loopholes by gandhi_2 · · Score: 1

      As the kids say:

      Don't hate the player....

    2. Re:Loopholes by MickyTheIdiot · · Score: 1

      Well.. don't underestimate the power of the campaign contribution, the revolving door, and the lobbyist... The congresscritters have many other ways they can get benefits from a situation like this...

    3. Re:Loopholes by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I suspect that that isn't quite correct: members of congress tend to be of substantially above-average wealth; but not nearly so much that they would have personal need for the same accounting tricks used to hide the incomes of major multinationals.

      Now, of course, the major multinationals who serve as important campaign donors and likely future employers, funders of think-tanks, etc. for them do have need of the accounting tricks used to hide the incomes of major multinationals, so the effect is largely the same.

    4. Re:Loopholes by TheRaven64 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Not so much the congress-denizens themselves, but the people who contribute to their campaigns and employ their constituents. If you're a senator, and you propose closing a tax loophole, you're likely to get a visit from a lobbyist saying 'my client has a factory in your state that employs 200 people. Without that loophole, we'd have to relocate the jobs to {this week's offshoring nation of choice}'. Senator votes for it, and the next election his opponent runs a campaign about how he cost the state 200 jobs in a single vote. More likely, the senator backs down and tries to find a loophole that none of the companies in his state are using. Unfortunately, when he does, he finds senators from other states experiencing the same pressure and the proposal never makes it out of committee.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    5. Re:Loopholes by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 2

      Have we fallen so far into austerity measures that hatred is now being rationed?

      Hate the player, the game, and everybody who uses the phrase "Don't hate the player, hate the game."

    6. Re:Loopholes by timeOday · · Score: 1

      I think the problem is more structural - the economy is global, but government is only national, for the most part. Companies can easily stay a step ahead of governments by playing them off each other, resulting in the race to the bottom you see today. Notice that you do see more effective international regulation where powerful special interests are concerned - intellectual property for example. But the same thing for environmental and worker protection, no so much.

    7. Re:Loopholes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Solution: Impose an import tariff equal to the gain from the tax loop hole, and do it in the same piece of legislation.

    8. Re:Loopholes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not a "loophole." When you purchase ad space through Google Adwords, your money is going to Google's office in Ireland where it is then filtered through the Netherlands and finally Bermuda.

      Since the earnings never touch US soil the IRS can't do anything.

    9. Re:Loopholes by Anthony+Mouse · · Score: 1

      Solution: Impose an import tariff equal to the gain from the tax loop hole, and do it in the same piece of legislation.

      (1) That doesn't get you out of the 'campaign contributions' problem. You pass the bill, the company in your state that is now paying higher taxes gives money to your opponent, that money causes you and everyone who voted for the bill to lose the next election. Then the next Congress repeals it, probably using (2) as an explanation.

      (2) You can't just impose arbitrary arbitrary import tariffs, they violate a whole list of treaties. Especially if the effect of the tariff is to tax the company on the profit it makes in foreign jurisdictions -- the other countries hate that, because that's "their" tax revenue. And they certainly don't want the company to move its operations back to the US.

    10. Re:Loopholes by geekoid · · Score: 1

      No. Not unless those people are also making billions from their corporation.
      They have been put in place by a group of people who think Corporation should be given a free ride because the market fixes everything.
      50 years ago this problem didn't exist. But then the corporate tax was lowed, and substantial loop whole have been put in place in the early 80s, early 90s, and 2001-2008

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    11. Re:Loopholes by darkmeridian · · Score: 1

      Congressmen don't make enough money to use these tax loopholes. Nope, they want to protect these loopholes because that leaves more money for the huge corporations to donate to their campaigns. Sidenote: It's annoying that people can set up a PAC, collect tons of money, then not run for office a la Sarah Palin.

      --
      A NYC lawyer blogs. http://www.chuangblog.com/
    12. Re:Loopholes by gandhi_2 · · Score: 1

      Oh, ok. So how about:

      "Don't halt the hater, hate the phrase."

    13. Re:Loopholes by Undead+Waffle · · Score: 1

      I think the problem is more structural - the economy is global, but government is only national, for the most part. Companies can easily stay a step ahead of governments by playing them off each other, resulting in the race to the bottom you see today. Notice that you do see more effective international regulation where powerful special interests are concerned - intellectual property for example. But the same thing for environmental and worker protection, no so much.

      And the easiest and most reliable way to equalize it that I can see is import taxes.

    14. Re:Loopholes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Agreeing with sibling post entirely.

      Let me emphasise the key part of your point for you: "As the kids say"

      The rest of your post is just a childish excuse for being a cunt.

    15. Re:Loopholes by Joce640k · · Score: 1

      If you're a US citizen your income is subject to US taxation even if you live/work overseas.

      http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/international/article/0,,id=97324,00.html

      Why aren't corporations subject to the same laws as individual citizens?

      --
      No sig today...
  4. Don't worry by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

    When the auditor drives away from Google in a brand new Jaguar, they will have found that nothing wrong is happening, and we will never hear of it again.

  5. Tax Evasion is Theft by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I wonder if publicly funded schools like Berkley and an (initially) publicly funded network like the internet helped Google in any way.

    Nahhh.. clearly Google's success is owed entirely to the Irish subsidiary that owns their IP, and the Dutch Oven they use to assist their tax evasion scheme.

    1. Re:Tax Evasion is Theft by GrumpySteen · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Tax evasion is not theft. Tax evasion is tax evasion. It's already illegal and it's pointlessly stupid to try to shoehorn one crime into a different crime's definition.

      We take the RIAA and MPAA to task for this shit every time they do it, so let's not make ourselves into hypocrites by doing the same thing, okay?

    2. Re:Tax Evasion is Theft by fredrated · · Score: 1

      I think the poster means that tax evasion is the moral equivalent of theft, not that there is a statute making tax evasion the crime of theft.

    3. Re:Tax Evasion is Theft by Wyatt+Earp · · Score: 1

      Tax evasion isn't theft, it's tax evasion.

      Would you say Linux is Windows? Of course not, so why say tax evasion is theft?

    4. Re:Tax Evasion is Theft by lgarner · · Score: 2

      Yes, tax evasion is illegal. Tax avoidance is not. Which one this falls under is yet to be seen.

    5. Re:Tax Evasion is Theft by sycodon · · Score: 2

      But then this may be tax avoidance, which would be perfectly legal.

      If that's the case then the only thing Google could be accused of is hypocrisy.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    6. Re:Tax Evasion is Theft by shentino · · Score: 1

      Tax evasion is stealing money back from the government that the government has decreed through tax law is partially theirs after you earn it.

      It's theirs because the government says it is. The same authority that establishes private property laws, I might add.

    7. Re:Tax Evasion is Theft by Jackie_Chan_Fan · · Score: 1

      Tax evasion is the moral equivalent of rape.

    8. Re:Tax Evasion is Theft by Wyatt+Earp · · Score: 1

      English common law, Islamic law, Feudal law and Napoleonic code established the concepts of private propert, not a government.

  6. tax code is such a scam by jonpublic · · Score: 2

    I'm waiting to find out that I paid more than Google in taxes.

    If only I could pull something so crazy off with my own income, shipping it to two different countries to avoid paying taxes.

    1. Re:tax code is such a scam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm waiting to find out that I paid more than Google in taxes.

      If only I could pull something so crazy off with my own income, shipping it to two different countries to avoid paying taxes.

      Why don't you start with having thousands of employees who have to pay taxes.

    2. Re:tax code is such a scam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      YES, YOU CAN!!!

      Only problem it cost you more than you can save from paying tax.

    3. Re:tax code is such a scam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Doing it may have cost them 100,000 dollars (to wildly guess at a number). Pocket change if you're saving 1 billion in taxes, but enough to make it unattractive to an individual.

    4. Re:tax code is such a scam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Standard "check the box" tax loophole that all large corporations use. Unintended consequence of some dumb idea in the past that major companies spend 100's of millions defending every time it comes under scrutiny.

      Not going away and if Google didn't take advantage of it they'd be fools.

    5. Re:tax code is such a scam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The U.S. is getting what it deserves. If the U.S. had a more reasonable corporate income tax rate of 15% (or none at all), companies wouldn't pull this shit.

      Canada reduced its corporate income tax to 18% (which will go to 15%) and U.S. companies are lining up to jump the border.

    6. Re:tax code is such a scam by Mark_Uplanguage · · Score: 1

      making the world's data useful should include everyone's ability to find loop holes in the tax code!

      --
      "The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein
    7. Re:tax code is such a scam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here's a better idea. Have no income at all. Start a one-man company and let the company pay for rent, food and everything. If everyone did that, nobody would have to pay taxes. That would be great, huh?

    8. Re:tax code is such a scam by MickyTheIdiot · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Again, his is just a mindless talking point.

      The biggest corporations have enough people and tricks to pay 0%. Rate of percentage is irrelevant. Getting rid of the broken tax code is.

    9. Re:tax code is such a scam by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

      Do you seriously think that any tax rate such that the cost of paying the tax is higher than the cost of paying the accountant would avoid elaborate tax evasion schemes? Seriously?

      These are amoral profit-maximizing entities we are talking about here, they aren't engaging in tax evasion to protest the man, they are doing so to save money. It isn't as though a 15% rate would make them say "Well, golly-shucks, I guess we've finally been asked to pay only our fair share, we'd better do our civic duty!" and stop...

    10. Re:tax code is such a scam by Ihmhi · · Score: 1

      This will be par for the course until we get something like FairTax. There's no reason to have this insanely complicated system when we can just have a nationwide sales tax that does basically the same thing while simultaneously eliminating most of the IRS. We can save money on closing down a huge arm of government bureaucracy, save money on making it impossible to dodge taxes, and avoid any complaints about tax disparity for the wealthy.

    11. Re:tax code is such a scam by hedwards · · Score: 1

      That has nothing to do with it. By that argument all businesses of any size are already paying their taxes. Except that smaller businesses tend not to have the resources or incentive to invest in an army of accountants and tax attorneys to evade their taxes.

    12. Re:tax code is such a scam by hedwards · · Score: 1

      You would have to pay taxes on the food, rent and anything else that the company gave you. Which could mean that they would seize all that back when you couldn't pay your tax bill on it and probably send you to prison for falsifying the tax forms.

    13. Re:tax code is such a scam by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Fair Tax will never work unless the wealth distribution problem is fixed.
      Are system is fine, some details are broken. Just remove all the loop holes the republicans have been putting in since Reagan.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    14. Re:tax code is such a scam by Aquitaine · · Score: 1

      The biggest corporations have enough people and tricks to pay 0%.

      No corporation in the United States pays zero percent corporate income tax on income realized in the united states in a year during which they had a net profit unless they carried over a loss from a previous year. In other words:

      NET profit:
      Lose 100 mil in 2006 - Tax bill $0
      Profit 50 mil in 2007 - Tax bill $0
      Profit 100 mil in 2008 - Tax bill 35% * 50 mil

      Where you start to get into complex loopholes is when you make money offshore. If AquitaineCorp makes $100 mil in the UK and keeps it in the UK, we'd pay UK tax. If we then wanted to bring some of that money home, we'd also have to pay US tax and we are one of the few countries in the world to do that. The loophole here is that if you set up an office in Bermuda or some place with no corporate tax, which is possible when you deal in intangibles like royalties, you can just park the money earned there and you don't pay US tax on it -- of course, you can't pay your US guys with it or invest in anything in the US with it without 'realizing it,' so it's not without price - you can spend it abroad, in countries that don't tax money realized outside their borders.

      The basis of the system actually isn't that complicated, but 'BIG CORPORATIONS PAY 0% TAX' makes for a better sound byte, which I guess is good enough for you.

    15. Re:tax code is such a scam by swalve · · Score: 1

      I have been long in favor of abolishing the corporate tax. (Bear with me.) As a poster above mentioned, corporate taxes just pass through to the individuals buying the products. Money flowing into a corporation has to flow out at some point, so you just get rid of the corp. income tax and capture the money somewhere else. We already do that partially, since corporate income that goes to pay salaries isn't taxed until it hits the employees. So keep doing that for all of the other money outflows. Change capital gains around a little bit, and tax them as regular income. Maybe you could have some kind of sliding scale that tweaks the ownership time periods beyond the >
      People might scream about the corporations getting away with murder, but those people are being ignorant. They don't hate corporations, they hate the power that a corporate structure gives to people and groups of people. So take away that power by eliminating the corporate tax structure as a way of hiding income and control over income. Eliminate things like selective perks- you can't offer stock options to one (class of) employee without making the same offer to them all. Eliminate (or tax into elimination) corporate contributions to political organizations. Frame it not as an assault on free speech, but as a truth-in-accounting kind of thing. Corporations can't be spending money on anything that isn't an expense or a cost of doing business. If a corp wants to donate, they have to unanimous consent from the board of directors, or something.

      I'd also like to see them outlaw defined-benefit pensions. (Again, bear with me.) One of the problems with business (and government) today is the opacity of future costs. So mandate that all compensation must be paid out in the year that it was earned. No more golden parachutes, no more muddling the books with pension fund payments that don't get made, or making employment decisions now that affect workers and management far into the future. It's actually a bit of a Ponzi scheme- the business incurs costs now, but doesn't have to pay them until later. Those costs are instead booked as profits. And if the company goes tits-up, the government has to step in and pay the people via the pension benefit guarantee laws. This would be hard to implement, don't get me wrong. But it would free up the American economy tremendously in the long run. (As it is, this is being phased in with 401(k) plans being the new norm for business. But it needs to be shoved along for companies with existing, broken pension plans, and for sure for government employees. For example, my property tax bill breaks out what I pay in pension contributions for muni workers. I'm paying for services long ago rendered...)

    16. Re:tax code is such a scam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can do this easily. Put your capital at risk and start a business. ;-)

    17. Re:tax code is such a scam by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      Correct.

      The only correct solution is to reform the tax code.

      The reform must happen in tandem with spending reform, because the only income, payroll, corporate and sales taxes that gov't should be able to collect is 0.

      Let them do what is absolutely necessary and survive on excise/import/vice taxes.

    18. Re:tax code is such a scam by Ihmhi · · Score: 1

      Part of the wealth distribution problem is the "rich people don't pay their fair share of taxes" part. We seem incapable as a nation - nay, a species - to solve any major social issues all in one fell swoop. It's something we end up doing gradually.

      Dodging Fairtax is essentially impossible. It also refunds money to people below certain thresholds of money - above that threshold, everyone pays the same flat tax on all purchases. Businesses are exempt from paying taxes on purchases, and setting up a business to purchases things solely for an individual would be specifically against the law in the plan (and rather difficult to conceal, I imagine). That's about as fair as you can get, and it would be a start.

  7. Crickey! by masternerdguy · · Score: 0

    Crickey!

    --
    To offset political mods, replace Flamebait with Insightful.
  8. Little Bird... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    When I worked at PMC Sierra, on the cusp of the bubble, there was a tool that would let you look up any employee or do a search on various fields in the HR records. We were always fascinated that there was exactly one employee whose address was in Bermuda. We always imagined her job consisted solely of ferrying briefcases of cash from one bank to another. Note, we had no design or manufacturing capability anywhere in the Carribean nor any customers there.

  9. Every company does that by HangingChad · · Score: 2

    Why are they picking on Google instead of someplace like, for instance, Koch Industries? Or News Corp? Or any of the other big companies pulling the infamous Double Dutch accounting tricks?

    --
    That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
    1. Re:Every company does that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Or Amazon even, proud to do it and saying often. Somebody is pissed off at Google, that's why.

    2. Re:Every company does that by AngryDeuce · · Score: 1

      Google obviously missed their monthly bribe payment. Once they get that sorted out this will disappear.

    3. Re:Every company does that by rotide · · Score: 1

      or GE... It's amazing how many companies pay nothing...

    4. Re:Every company does that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Perhaps by going after Google first, they can't be accused of politics when going after Koch Industries or News Corp. later.

      Oh wait, I forgot that facts don't matter to some folks.
         

    5. Re:Every company does that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why are they picking on Google instead of someplace like, for instance, Koch Industries? Or News Corp? Or any of the other big companies pulling the infamous Double Dutch accounting tricks?

      It's called the double Irish Dutch sandwich: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Irish_Arrangement

      It's not a trick, it is (sadly) perfectly legal.

    6. Re:Every company does that by geekoid · · Score: 1
      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    7. Re:Every company does that by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Because:
      A) someone reported something
      B) Its a good public target to bring interest from the general public.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    8. Re:Every company does that by Anthony+Mouse · · Score: 0

      By "someone," did you by any chance mean Microsoft?

    9. Re:Every company does that by Anonymous+Psychopath · · Score: 1

      Why are they picking on Google instead of someplace like, for instance, Koch Industries? Or News Corp? Or any of the other big companies pulling the infamous Double Dutch accounting tricks?

      Cisco's CEO has been quite open about this practice, and his desire to bring it back into the US instead of leaving it offshore. It has to make sense, though; only an idiot would pay taxes they don't have to.

      --

      Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

    10. Re:Every company does that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you think the IRS cares if some whiny partisans accuse them of politics?

    11. Re:Every company does that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They are not picking on Google. Like Google said, it's just some normal verification like every other business goes thru once in a while. We had to go thru it here last year for months. But when it happens to Boeing it does not make Slashdot headlines, but you can learnxit if you read the financial papers.

    12. Re:Every company does that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Google does the irish sandwich and the double dutch before going to Bermuda.

  10. Republican talking point. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    “Stop Obama and Pelosi from raising taxes on Google!”

    1. Re:Republican talking point. by PickyH3D · · Score: 1

      I think you have that quite a bit backwards. For starters, the Obama administration has strong ties to Google, as well as even stronger ties to GE, which is a company that paid no taxes on similar amounts of money. On top of that, the head of GE is leading the charge to "correct" the tax code. Yeah, I feel reassured. GE claims to be paying a tax bill now, but I imagine this has a lot more to do with PR than reality because otherwise that would have been their initial claim, and not a backpedaled one. I doubt that we will ever know how much they truly paid, and whether it really was taxes paid for now, or simply pre-paying future taxes that they'll get some sort of refund on, while calling it payment for back taxes.

      I do not care about Republicans because politicians pull the same tricks regardless of their party, and I am conservative--not a Republican. But, people talking about avoiding tax hikes "on the rich" are talking about it for people that are not committing ethical fraud by evading taxes, even if it is legally.

      It's not our money to take, nor is it right to ask someone to give up something simply because they have been successful, or even ultra-successful. It is fair to expect people to pay their legally obligated share, and not abuse loopholes so ridiculously that there is no justification, like with some people and particularly many companies.

      The reason so many companies do not pay even larger tax amounts is because they keep their money off shore, and a lot of them do this for reasonable reasons: they get taxed at somewhere around 35% if they try to bring the money back into the US. For legitimately made money--money simply made in another country--this means that it is taxed twice, and the second time is pretty heftily. A lot of companies are willing to bring their money back into the US, if that tax rate is lowered, which is win-win for everyone involved because the government gets a cut, and the company gets it back in the US to play with. There are also a lot fighting for no entry-tax, which I would not be opposed to as long as their were no loopholes to escape the initial tax (for companies like Google, Microsoft, and many others that never actually have most of their money taxed in the US, even when it should be).

  11. Sadly, this is perfectly legal... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm sure that Google has sufficient tax lawyers & accountants to ensure compliance.

    Further, this doesn't sound like an audit - requesting additional information is routine.

    I remember back when I was in university the tax people didn't believe that I was a student. I found this odd, since I was a student the previous year, and received financial support from the government. So I got a letter from my school saying that yes, I am a full time student & sent it in. That settled the question.

  12. Like Their Lawyers Would Let Something Slip by eldavojohn · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Google's probably got nothing to worry about. They've been doing this for a while. So has Microsoft. And Facebook. And probably most other large companies. Most of this falls under something called transfer pricing. Which is a global problem that you will find anywhere from China to Britain to Argentina.

    It's not quite right for this article to make it sound like a solely Google problem. It's far far larger than that. In the end, Google's got enough of the highest paid lawyers and accountants that this audit should turn up just about nothing.

    Hmmm, maybe I'll just transfer all my profits to Bermuda ... oh, right, I'm poor. We pay taxes. Corporations and people rich enough to afford shifty accountants don't. And, really, what motivation do my representatives have to change this situation? Their soft money doesn't come from me and my fellow citizens are too stupid, too easily misled and too illiterate to vote someone who would change this into office.

    --
    My work here is dung.
    1. Re:Like Their Lawyers Would Let Something Slip by MickyTheIdiot · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The corporate MSM has always obscured this problem (and it's variants) and will continue to obscure this problem because they're into ass deep themselves. I've never heard a TV news show bemoan the fact that many corporations affectively have a negative state income tax rate and I suspect I never will (but it's well document in books like "JobsScam" and other places).

      They don't want people thinking that the people have OWS have a point now, do they?

    2. Re:Like Their Lawyers Would Let Something Slip by Sperbels · · Score: 1

      Their soft money doesn't come from me and my fellow citizens are too stupid, too easily misled and too illiterate to vote someone who would change this into office.

      Like Ralph Nadar or Ron Paul? Problem is, whenever a politician comes along that starts talking like he wants to clean this stuff up, everyone calls him crazy and unelectable....including the people such as yourself who complain that we can't get people elected who will change things. Whenever a movement comes along (like the Occupy Wallstreet thing) to try and change things, we dismiss the people as kooks and the radical left or right. I guess you have to be a radical not to want to get screwed by rich people. I think we're pretty much fucked and can't do a thing about it because we aren't willing to rock the boat when it really matters. Fatalistic, but true.

    3. Re:Like Their Lawyers Would Let Something Slip by swillden · · Score: 1

      Hmmm, maybe I'll just transfer all my profits to Bermuda ... oh, right, I'm poor. We pay taxes. Corporations and people rich enough to afford shifty accountants don't.

      According to Google's 3Q earnings report, they paid income taxes of around 19% of their profits.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    4. Re:Like Their Lawyers Would Let Something Slip by DaveGod · · Score: 1

      Hmmm, maybe I'll just transfer all my profits to Bermuda ... oh, right, I'm poor. We pay taxes. Corporations and people rich enough to afford shifty accountants don't.

      Without wanting to disagree with the broader point and certainly not trying to defend it, it's not just "rich" people scamming taxes.

      It's more about activities providing the opportunity. Big companies and many rich people have international operations so mucking around with where the income falls taxable becomes possible. Annoyed about cruise lines not paying tax? Well neither do the waiters working on the ships.

      Many small business owners are "at it" to some extent, whether they're inflating expenses or taking cash out the till instead of recording the sale. The smaller they are, the more likely it is, in my experience - it's remarkable how many people seem to live off fresh air alone. Admittedly much of that is again due to opportunity: it's less convenient to hide income when you have an employee processing invoices and doing the books. Instead a medium sized company is more likely to be underestimating the value of stocks or saying some of their debts are bad.

      Not just companies either. I'd bet money that a salaried plumber doing a wee job for his neighbour at the weekend isn't declaring it on a tax return. Of course that's "just a bit cheeky", a small time guy getting by right? Tax evasion is tax evasion.

    5. Re:Like Their Lawyers Would Let Something Slip by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, but Google's the one prattling on about "do no evil".

    6. Re:Like Their Lawyers Would Let Something Slip by MacDork · · Score: 1

      I'd bet money that a salaried plumber doing a wee job for his neighbour at the weekend isn't declaring it on a tax return.

      You've never watched porn, have you? The neighbor NEVER has any cash.

  13. It's sad that this is "routine" by sirwired · · Score: 3, Insightful

    This, unfortunately, is a very common way for corporations to avoid taxes. The rules to decide which country "earned" a particular chunk of income are inherently complicated (with little way to simplify them), as there are plenty of legitimate reasons for part of a company to owe a foreign subsidiary money. It's a constant cat-and-mouse game between corporations and the IRS chasing this money around.

    It's a complicated problem with no good answers. (Though you would never know it to listen to people on either end of the political spectrum... on one end you have people saying we should "eliminate loopholes", betraying their ignorance of why the problem exists to begin with. On the other end you have people that argue that corporations should pay no income tax since they spend so much effort complying (or fighting) with tax laws, but offer no way to make up that lost revenue, or volunteer cuts.)

    1. Re:It's sad that this is "routine" by AmazinglySmooth · · Score: 2

      there is a good solution. Don't tax corporate incomes. If you can't really do it anyway, then you are just going to be constantly frustrated. Instead, change the taxes to allow companies to do what's right.

    2. Re:It's sad that this is "routine" by artor3 · · Score: 1

      It is a simple problem to fix. Cheating on taxes is akin to stealing from your neighbors. Give the executives one week in prison for every million dollars not paid. Watch the problem disappear over night.

      Of course, the robber barons are above the laws and would never be charged, even if they were lax enough to allow the bill to pass. But that's a problem with the system, not some inherent difficulty in levying taxes.

    3. Re:It's sad that this is "routine" by Maximum+Prophet · · Score: 1

      A global corporate income tax would stop this.* (:-)

      *Cue the UN black helicopters...

      --
      All ideas^H^H^H^H^Hprocesses in this post are Patent Pending. (as well as the process of patenting all postings)
    4. Re:It's sad that this is "routine" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You clearly don't understand the issues. They are paying their appropriate share of taxes. It is just they have a lot of expenses from companies in other countries. These are real, valid expenses. How are you going to stop them? You can't. International commerce would stop. If a company buys goods from china, you would tax them on all profits, regardless of the cost of goods sold? Doesn't work. So how do you calculate the real cost? You can't. Tax at zero and increase VAT on all goods, foreign and domestic. Problem solved.

    5. Re:It's sad that this is "routine" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Get rid of income tax all around, implement sales tax.
      You buy, you pay the tax, no workarounds, no loopholes, nada, zilch, zippo.

      Things like normal table foods, drinks (milk, water, orange juice) - no tax.
      Things like luxury foods - caviar, alcohol, soda, etc... taxed.

      Cars, jeans, shoes, boats, yachts, etc... Taxed.

      If you buy it outside the country, double tax, on top of import duties.

    6. Re:It's sad that this is "routine" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly, enact H.R.25/S.13 the FairTax bills currently in congress and get rid of the income tax. See http://fairtax.org for more info.

    7. Re:It's sad that this is "routine" by roman_mir · · Score: 2

      Why is it unfortunate that companies avoid paying some taxes? It's very fortunate.

      What is US gov't doing anyway, that you support so much? Which wars do you like? Is it the Afghan war? Iraq? War on drugs maybe? Maybe it's war on poverty?

      How about war on education? War on energy independence? War on your liberties?

      How about reforming the tax code, not the 9 9 9 Hermain, I can't count, Cain (which in reality is 18 9 9, if somebody bothered to look at the actual statement and realize that companies wouldn't be able to deduct salaries from their revenue), but really reforming it, as in 0 0 0.

      0 Income tax, 0 corporate tax, 0 sales tax.

      Also 0 payroll tax.

      That's all that government should get.

      To achieve this, of-course gov't spending would have to be cut, something like 99.99% cut. Now they can actually charge excise and import and vice taxes and do what is actually Constitutional instead of doing everything else.

  14. Proble? by jgotts · · Score: 1

    Freudian slip?

  15. some in Congress want this to be even easier... by MickyTheIdiot · · Score: 1
    1. Re:some in Congress want this to be even easier... by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 4, Informative

      The last time the US Congress did that, companies just re-purchased their own stock with the money they brought in. In other words, the only people who benefited from that stimulus were the top executives. The rest of us saw a 3 Dollar uptick in the stock price, and thought ourselves lucky we could get a dinner at a nice place through selling the stock.

      --
      Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
    2. Re:some in Congress want this to be even easier... by Jackie_Chan_Fan · · Score: 1

      Wouldnt work. Why would corporations spend money they dont need to.

  16. Would it be too much to ask by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    For companies to pay their fair share of tax in their own country or is that crazy talk ?

  17. The Poorest Pay the Most Taxes by eldavojohn · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I'm waiting to find out that I paid more than Google in taxes.

    It's not just Google, here's a place to start. The problem is larger than that as some of the largest companies (Boeing, Ebay, GE) spend more money lobbying politicians than paying taxes.

    --
    My work here is dung.
    1. Re:The Poorest Pay the Most Taxes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Corporations don't pay taxes - you and I do. It's built into the price of the products and services we buy. I run a small business. When I looked at the price I would charge for my product I included all my costs including taxes. My business has no money except what people pay me for my product. That's where I get the money to pay the taxes.

      Each company in the supply chain for anything we buy does the same thing. Our effective tax rate, the direct and indirect taxes, makes up a sizable portion of our income. The question shouldn't be who can or should pay more taxes, it should be how can we reign in a government out of control when it comes to spending.

    2. Re:The Poorest Pay the Most Taxes by MickyTheIdiot · · Score: 1

      blah blah blah. common talking point. I wonder if it was cut and pasted.

      Plus it's ignoring your own beloved laws of supply and demand.

    3. Re:The Poorest Pay the Most Taxes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nope, not cut-n-paste. Real feedback from a real small business man. I charge the lowest price I can to increase sales.

      How about you? Do you have any real world business experience?

    4. Re:The Poorest Pay the Most Taxes by lgarner · · Score: 1

      Wow, I don't think I've ever seen such an appropriate nickname here!

    5. Re:The Poorest Pay the Most Taxes by ScentCone · · Score: 1

      So, just to be clear, here, you respond to his perfectly reasonable, informative, and exactly correct information, and say "blah blah blah?"

      This is why the "occupy" idiots are going exactly nowhere with anything (except for giving a lot of habitual protesters another venue to talk to themselves and their friends about everything from animal rights to the right to have a podiatrist work for them at no charge) with standing around and mumbling. They, too, can't muster up anything more constructive than, "tear down all successful people" and "blah blah blah." So, you're in good company, anyway.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    6. Re:The Poorest Pay the Most Taxes by Nadaka · · Score: 1

      It has been proven, repeatedly, in the real world economy, that lowering corporate income taxes does not lower the cost of goods in an industry, it only ever increases the profits in that industry.

    7. Re:The Poorest Pay the Most Taxes by sycodon · · Score: 1

      Some people just know themselves well.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    8. Re:The Poorest Pay the Most Taxes by h4rr4r · · Score: 0

      Then you suck at economics, no surprise considering how many small businesses fail.

      You should charge what the market will pay, this has no relation to costs. Yes, I do in fact have real world business experience as a contractor.

    9. Re:The Poorest Pay the Most Taxes by 0123456 · · Score: 1

      It has been proven, repeatedly, in the real world economy, that lowering corporate income taxes does not lower the cost of goods in an industry, it only ever increases the profits in that industry.

      Competition lowers the cost of goods. Why would companies sell for less than customers are willing to pay?

      But right now we're in the worst recession for decades: what kind of retard would think that they're going to improve the economy and encourage corporations to hire more people by... increasing taxes?

    10. Re:The Poorest Pay the Most Taxes by Jackie_Chan_Fan · · Score: 0

      Contracted aids did ya?

    11. Re:The Poorest Pay the Most Taxes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The last part, that large corps pay more for lobbying than taxes is a straw man argument. They also like pay more in salaries than taxes. Does that mean we should despise them? I'm NOT a fan of taxes, nor of inhumane corporation-people mutants, but just because a company pays more for one thing than taxes doesn't mean they're evil or doing something slimy. Now, granted, most lobbying is likely slimy, but not more or less so just because it happens to be a bigger part of the budget than taxes. Lobbying, ostensibly, gets large corps more than just tax loopholes. It also paves the way for contracts, legislative leverage, federal agency intervention, etc. None of these are great things by any stretch of the imagination, but it's not just an apples-to-apples comparison.

    12. Re:The Poorest Pay the Most Taxes by Nadaka · · Score: 1

      The goal of raising taxes isn't to improve the economy, it is to provide solvency for the government. Govornment spending can improve the economy, especially when the wealthy are unwilling to invest in it, as is the case right now.

      What kind of retard thinks that removing the government spending that directly contributes to the economy and pumping it into the trust funds of billionaires who refuse to reinvest it will improve the economy? That kind of retard is called the Tea Party.

  18. "Double Irish" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    In case you were wondering, this legal tax evasion technique is called the "Double Irish".
    https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Double_Irish_Arrangement

    1. Re:"Double Irish" by doohan · · Score: 1

      Reading that makes me think that accounts really do like their sandwiches.

  19. non-news by superwiz · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Google is a publicly traded company. They have to be audited every quarter simply for that reason. Every publicly traded company has to be independently audited every quarter. I doubt IRS will find anything Google can't.

    --
    Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
    1. Re:non-news by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 2

      Would these independent auditors be graduates of the Arthur Andersen school?

    2. Re:non-news by Vellmont · · Score: 1


      Every publicly traded company has to be independently audited every quarter. I doubt IRS will find anything Google can't.

      The "independent" auditor is hired by the company to perform the audit every year. This company makes significant amounts of money performing audits, and attracting customer loyalty. How much incentive do you think they have to dig deep, and find anything really wrong?

      Anyone who knows anything about audits knows the audit is only as good as the auditor. Think the IRS might have some deeper motivations to find illegal tax dodges?

      --
      AccountKiller
    3. Re:non-news by m50d · · Score: 1

      Think the IRS might have some deeper motivations to find illegal tax dodges?

      You'd hope so. But if it's anything like the SEC, the lead investigator will "let them away with it" and then coincidentally be hired for a high-paying position there shortly after.

      --
      I am trolling
    4. Re:non-news by superwiz · · Score: 1

      Hiring auditors to overlook things (even in a wink-wink nodge-nodge manner) would constitute any number of felonies. Any publicly traded company is so awash in money that it would find it fairly difficult to make felonies more profitable than simply sticking to its core business. Everyone is corruptible, of course, but corruption on large scale simply doesn't pay enough to bother with it.

      --
      Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
    5. Re:non-news by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      The question comes down to interpretation of tax law. Did Google's accountants correctly interpret tax law so as to allow them to avoid taxes in all of these cases? My bet would be that after a 5-10 year investigation the IRS will conclude that Google made several "innocent" mistakes and owes the IRS some significant sum and that they will agree to a settlement with Google that covers the cost of the workers time.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    6. Re:non-news by Overzeetop · · Score: 1

      Absolutely true...but the exceptions make for great headlines!

      --
      Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
    7. Re:non-news by LanMan04 · · Score: 2

      I doubt IRS will find anything Google can't.

      Yeah, after all, how often does someone say "I IRSed myself this morning to see what potential employers might find about me"?

      --
      With the first link, the chain is forged.
    8. Re:non-news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1. The SEC is not the IRS. The SEC is concerned with transparency for investors; the IRS is concerned with collecting revenue for the government. The financials required for SEC reporting are not the same as what's required for tax reporting: the company could report different net income numbers under their interpretation of the respective rules.

      2. The regular "audit" per SEC regulations is performed by an "independent" auditor hired directly by the company, who anyway just signs a small one-page letter stating that they reviewed the attached financials and found that they conform to generally-accepted accounting standards. They don't release their detailed findings to the SEC.

      3. Nobody said anything about Google not being aware of this. This kind of arrangement doesn't happen by accident, and they're generally not well-publicized by the company, to put it mildly. Which is why the IRS performs audits. They're looking for tax fraud and unreported income, not arithmetic errors.

    9. Re:non-news by matthewv789 · · Score: 1

      1. The SEC is not the IRS. The SEC is concerned with transparency for investors; the IRS is concerned with collecting revenue for the Federal government. They also have different accounting and reporting rules: a company could report different net income numbers under their interpretation of each.

      2. The regular SEC-required audits are performed by an "independent" auditor hired directly by the company, who anyway only signs a small one-page letter attesting that they have found that the attached financial statements conform to generally-accepted accounting principals. They don't exactly release their detailed findings to the SEC.

      3. I'm sure the IRS won't find anything that is a surprise to Google - such schemes don't happen by accident, and they are not well-publicized by the company, to put it mildly. The IRS is looking for tax evasion and fraud, not arithmetic errors. Since some such schemes are legal, the IRS will be looking into the detailed interpretation of tax laws, about which they may not agree with Google's tax attorneys, as well as anything material that may have been "overlooked" or otherwise omitted from Google's tax return.

    10. Re:non-news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Those independent audits of public companies are bullshit. The corporation in question chooses one of the 3 big accounting firms and hires them to rubber-stamp an audit report. These accountants randomly inspect transactions and if anything fishy turns up, they are expected to concoct some bullshit to explain away the "exception." The accounting firm knows that if they raise any issues or put any actual problems on their report, that they can kiss their multi-million dollar auditing contract goodbye. It's a blatant conflict of interest.

      It is in the IRS's best interests to find problems with Google's accounting, unlike Ernst & Young, who's best interests are in keeping their contract with Google.

    11. Re:non-news by Vellmont · · Score: 1


      Hiring auditors to overlook things (even in a wink-wink nodge-nodge manner) would constitute any number of felonies. Any publicly traded company is so awash in money that it would find it fairly difficult to make felonies more profitable than simply sticking to its core business.

      Are you really this naive? Nobody has to sit around and think "I'm going to go commit some felonies for the company" for meaningless audits to occur. All that has to happen is that everyone has to think they're doing their job. The people hiring the auditors decide they want a good audit, and get rewarded for everything coming out clean. They talk to their buddies, who recommend an auditing firm that's performed "well" for them in the past. The auditing firm does the audit, doesn't dig particularly deep, or ask "the wrong questions", and gives them a nice clean audit. Nobody commits any overt felonies. The audit is shit of course, but getting a real audit was never in anyones interests, now was it?

      If you don't believe me, just look at what happened with Enron. They were publicly traded, and underwent audits. That was obviously a high-profile case, but it certainly proves the point that big name audits are only as good as the auditor. Are you really foolish enough to think it's changed that much in the last few years?

      --
      AccountKiller
    12. Re:non-news by nosferatu1001 · · Score: 1

      AA were exonerated of Enron, you realise?

      Audits cannot uncover systemic high level fraud by all officers.

      Additionally - you do realise auditors audit each other, yes? Oh wait, you dont. Any excuse to find a rival firm has performed a bad audit is taken, with glee

      Saying this as a current IT auditor and ex-big 4

  20. Taxes? LOL by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The only people who pay taxes are those who are too poor to afford a proper accountant. Morons.

  21. I support Google on this one ... by armandoxxx · · Score: 0

    If you ask me, why not ? The more they take out of US the better. Otherwise US will spend it on wall street instead of their own taxpayers anyway. I come from a small country in Europe Slovenia. I own a small company and my government takes a lot of my yearly income. About 40%. I don't know how much USA takes of googles yearly income but yes lot's of people are thinking of moving companies/money out of their own country just to pay less tax. Not that I'm greedy or something but since I'm paying my government taxes I expect something in return. A little something would be fine. For example a dentist, as I need one right now and I've been searching for one for 2 years now. Unfortunately I can't find one public dentist to take care of me on my health insurance, which I'm also paying every month ... so why wouldn't I want to take my money out of my country and at least save me some to fix my teeth. Go google !

    1. Re:I support Google on this one ... by geekoid · · Score: 1

      "Otherwise US will spend it on wall street instead of their own taxpayers anyway. "
      What does that even mean? are you referring to the loan the US gave out to prevent the economy form getting worse? they one that's been paid back?

      "taxes I expect something in return. "
      Are you telling me you get nothing? no roads, law enforcement, fire dept, military.. nothing? Wow that's bad, but her in the US we have a pretty good infrastructure, and many other benefits from being taxed.

      "Unfortunately I can't find one public dentist to take care of me on my health insurance, which I'm also paying every month "
      So your taxes don't include public health care? ok, that's a good point.
      I don't know why your insurances isn't excepted by dentists. Sounds pretty crappy.

      Google , and all the companies doing this, need to be made to stop. Good infrastructure and a pretty damn honest system is why they can have Google, and they should pay.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  22. Dutch sandwich by bernywork · · Score: 1

    I like Scott Adam's take:

    http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/2010-12-28/

    Information from Wikipedia:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Irish_Arrangement#Dutch_Sandwich

    It's quite common, and is done by a *lot* of companies

    --
    Curiosity was framed; ignorance killed the cat. -- Author unknown
    1. Re:Dutch sandwich by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For an in depth look, see

      http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-05-13/american-companies-dodge-60-billion-in-taxes-even-tea-party-would-condemn.html

  23. US economy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    dont forget though that means this money is being taken out of the US economy

  24. Bermuda by mfh · · Score: 1

    Well if the IRS is going after Google, then there are quite a few more companies that they will be going after as well because about every fortune 500 company is in Bermuda for tax reasons. I was over there recently and let me tell you something. Bermuda is overpriced and it's not that good of a vacation place, but more importantly is that it's loaded to the gills with money from the USA. Google is following a corporate tax model, and they are being picked on for doing what everyone else is doing.

    --
    The dangers of knowledge trigger emotional distress in human beings.
  25. How to end this in a few easy steps by MikeRT · · Score: 0

    1. Abolish the current corporate tax code outright.
    2. Establish a 2 year tax holiday to let companies move their money back to the US at no charge.
    3. Impose a flat a 2% tax on revenues, not profits.
    4. Raise the flat tax 0.25% a year until it reaches 4-5%
    5. Establish a 15-20% tariff on all goods brought into the US

    #5 would kick companies like Apple's ass. Apple Caymens might be able to sell a $600 laptop for $1500+ to Apple USA, but the moment Apple USA puts it on the market, the $1800 entry level MacBook Pro becomes a $2,160 machine; a $2,500 laptop becomes a $3,000 one.

    The solution to offshoring is making it so that the products brought back to the US to sell at high profit margins get jacked up so high by tariffs that the quantity they sell is decimated.

    1. Re:How to end this in a few easy steps by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Skip 1
      2 has shown not to work.
      3 I see what you are going for, but when a company is breaking even, it would kill them.
      4 because 3 is impractical, if not destructive, 4 is invalid
      5 I would argue for making that tariff only on good imported from countries that don't meet are federal worker guidelines.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    2. Re:How to end this in a few easy steps by Jackie_Chan_Fan · · Score: 1

      Tariffs are the answer, but I'm willing to say the tariff should be 80% for any employer with more than 75% of its work force overseas.

  26. Like Microsoft with their Ireland operation. by tomhudson · · Score: 2

    Microsoft was doing spectacular tax transfers for a decade through Ireland. Now that other places have joined the race to the bottom in terms of throwing tax loopholes at big companies, Microsoft has "diversified".

    Hint: Remember how Ballmer was saying that the Skype purchase wouldn't impact Microsoft because the funds were being repatriated from elsewhere? How do you think those billions in "loose change" got there in the first place? You "park" them elsewhere until you can bring them back onshore at the absolute lowest impact to your operation.

    1. Re:Like Microsoft with their Ireland operation. by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Google actually has a set-up in Ireland as well. I believe it's a very popular place among many megacorps, IT or otherwise.

      But, yeah, this kind of BS needs to stop - for everybody. Corporations shouldn't be able to enjoy infrastructure, healthy and educated labor force, and other benefits of a strong society that is built on money contributed by all of us without paying their fair share. If they want to go country-shopping for best tax regime, let them - but they also have to accept that country's labor regime, corruption level, political instability etc. Only then it'll be fair competition.

    2. Re:Like Microsoft with their Ireland operation. by tomhudson · · Score: 1

      I think that part of the problem is that BigCorp LIKES higher levels of corruption. It's those externalities that don't get factored into the price of stuff, just like not having to comply with more stringent pollution laws, etc.

    3. Re:Like Microsoft with their Ireland operation. by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      There is, perhaps, a tendency of going that way, but last I checked most of them still have significant presence in US (or at the very least, the senior management) - so it's not that simple.

      But yes, closing down too many loopholes may well mean some big corps moving their headquarters to China and whatnot. What we also need are laws that account for corruption, pollution, wage slavery etc in foreign manufacturing. Basically, put higher tariffs on imports from countries in which the cost of doing business is much lower than US because all those things can be ignored. For other civilized countries, on the other hand - Canada, EU members etc - make it essentially free trade.

      In other words, make it so that if companies want to sell in US (and make no mistake: they do - it's not just about population, it's also about spare cash said population has), there shouldn't be an economic incentive for them to outsource manufacturing to other countries solely to circumvent regulations in this market.

  27. You Poor Poor Fool by eldavojohn · · Score: 1

    I run a small business.

    Oh the irony.

    The question shouldn't be who can or should pay more taxes, it should be how can we reign in a government out of control when it comes to spending.

    Really? Let's say for a moment that your small business was selling advertising through clicks on advertisements on the internet. Now, you figure out your taxes and charge your customers that. But somehow, Google keeps undercutting that price point. How do they do it? Oh, right "double Irish" and "dutch sandwich" tax loopholes. You don't make enough money to set up a shell office in Ireland or Netherlands to funnel sales through? Too bad, you'll forever be figuring in more taxes than Google into your price since you can't take advantage of these bullshit tax loopholes.

    I agree the government is way out of control on spending. But you don't have a lick of business sense if you're disagreeing with me on what is fair for taxation in this situation. It flat out ruins your competitiveness as a small business and there's a reason we have laws that protect the competitiveness of the small guys. Just because they compete on an international level shouldn't give them the right to beat local businesses into the ground -- let alone enjoy the American infrastructure that is paid for with taxes while avoiding the same taxes!

    --
    My work here is dung.
    1. Re:You Poor Poor Fool by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are correct but that isn't the point I was making. Yes, those with resources can influence or circumvent public policy to their advantage in ways I can't. (I don't have a waiver from the new national health care plan.) This is not cool.

      The point I was making is we somehow seem to think corporations paying more in taxes is "free money" that the government should tap. It isn't.

    2. Re:You Poor Poor Fool by Anthony+Mouse · · Score: 1

      I seems like that's what the GP was saying: Corporate tax means he has to pay and international companies don't. Since we can't tax companies that exist outside of our jurisdiction, the only way to make it fair is to tax the companies in our jurisdiction at the same rate.

      You seem to be assuming that we can somehow tax foreign corporations without violating any treaties. Got anything to back that up?

  28. Loophole needs to be closed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The offshoring of profits needs to end. Google is doing it because it saves on their tax bill. Microsoft does it too, and most banks. I remember seeing a program on TV that interviewed a man who cut the lawn of banks in the Grand Cayman Islands. There were over 350 (different corporate) banks on the island, but it was difficult for the locals to find banking services because there was only a local credit union serving the island. Zero corporate taxes means profits aren't taxed. I remember hearing about how Microsoft offshored money to Ireland and paid several hundred million less in taxes (or even shifting its (official for tax purposes) headquarters to Nevada to avoid paying tax in Washington State. Its a big loophole that could fund school for 50 million American kids, but the Republicans and Tea Party folk are good with 5 people who have a 3-5 billion in the bank, getting a new superyacht *and* redo all of the properties in the Hamptons *every year* instead of every 2 years.

  29. companies get audited.. there's no conspiracy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This isn't a political game (ok, it could be, but it's probably not)... large companies get audited, a lot.

    http://www.wipfli.com/BlogPost_Tax_031410.aspx

    Larger corporations experienced an audit rate of approximately 14.5%

    Any year, a large company has a 1/7 chance of being audited.

    Some large companies are audited so often, they actually form relationships with their IRS auditor. A few years ago, the IRS started randomly reassigning auditors to prevent it.

  30. Evil? by MrMickS · · Score: 1

    Regardless of whether this is just normal corporate practice how does this sit with the 'Do No Evil' motto?

    Personally I'd avoid paying any tax I could, but then I've not portrayed myself as anything other than a normal individual. Google, through their motto, have set themselves a higher bar. To me this shows that the pressures of being a public company have made the halo slip a little,

    --
    You may think me a tired, old, cynic. I'd have to disagree about the tired bit.
    1. Re:Evil? by geekoid · · Score: 1
      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  31. taxes computed after expenses by peter303 · · Score: 1

    You need to take tax 101. Really.

  32. Google are AdamAnt they did nothing wrong by Dogtanian · · Score: 1

    Methinks their goody two shoes nature finally rubbed some corporation the wrong way.

    Don't drink, don't smoke, what do you do?
    Don't drink, don't smoke, what do you do?
    Subtle innuendos follow
    Must be large scale multi-billion dollar tax evasion.

    / Obscure?
    // Hang on, this isn't Fark
    /// Who cares, slashie slashie

    --
    "Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
    1. Re:Google are AdamAnt they did nothing wrong by Pope · · Score: 1

      Hey, they're just following ancient (corporate) history! If they dodge for you, they'll dodge for me.

      --
      It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
  33. Do away with income tax by reasterling · · Score: 1

    We should have a system based on what you spend not what you earn. Combine that with proper trade tariffs and the corps will be paying their taxes or they wont be doing business in America.

    --
    "For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice" -- God
  34. That's not a solution by sirwired · · Score: 1

    Completely waiving tax by corporations isn't a solution either. How is that, in any way, fair to companies that have not incorporated in a way that would allow them to avoid tax? (i.e. your average small business.) Due their corporate "personhood", a corporation involves a certain fixed amount of perfectly-justified administrative and legal overhead that is untenable for many small businesses.

    We do collect a substantial amount of corporate income tax, even if that is far less than the official rate.

    1. Re:That's not a solution by Anthony+Mouse · · Score: 1

      How is that, in any way, fair to companies that have not incorporated in a way that would allow them to avoid tax?

      Your question is kind of nonsense. The cost reincorporating as a different type of corporation is not zero, but it's in the neighborhood of a few hundred bucks.

  35. Avoid is such a rotten term by Shivetya · · Score: 1

    I prefer to say "they have failed to convince Congress" to write a tax exception/grant that is applicable to the methods they have available for protecting their profits.

    As in, our entire tax system is a sham to benefit the big three, politicians, big corporations, and unions. Much of the laws passed in this country serve those same three interest.

    So when people go off on a tirade about corporations avoiding taxes or not paying enough there a few things they need to consider.

    1) NO CORPORATION PAYS ANY TAXES. - They only collect taxes for the government in an indirect taxation scheme used to prevent the average man from fully realizing their true tax burden.

    2) The tax system servers only the politicians and those in their favor.

    There is no complicated problem, it is a simple problem. We have a tax system which has far too many rules. The rules exist to obfuscate the system to the point that the population does not comprehend the taxes they pay. It also allows for actions like we are seeing with the IRS which are simply shake downs which I bet will mysteriously fixed within a year or so with some new tax law

    While H.Cain's proposal is a bit simple and not well defined; claiming he will let us "know" in a week, it does have one thing we are desperately missing, clarity. I really don't like the idea of giving Washington access to a National sales tax but the idea of low taxes, no loopholes, and no double taxation are marvelous.

    --
    * Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
    1. Re:Avoid is such a rotten term by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Yes, the pay taxes from the PROFIT, not costs. Theyf act that you can't graps this very basic concept means you are pretty clueless about the tax situation

      "As in, our entire tax system is a sham to benefit the big three, politicians, big corporations, and unions."
      What? those all benefit the LEAST from having taxes.
      Are you really that stupid? politician who lower taxes get reelected, big corporations make more money, and the unions(which are worker btw) take more home.
      So those groups often fight to lower taxes even at the determent of the citizens.

      "2) The tax system servers only the politicians and those in their favor."
      nonsense.

      Cain proposal will not work. it wont generate enough money, and it will destroy the lower class.

      Flat taxes only work when the money is reasonably well distributed, it is not. It's math.
      How is the idea of people dying int he streets? how about the idea of living like they do in India? how about no new technologies? because THAT is the result of that plan.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  36. the USA really needs to re-do taxes by WindBourne · · Score: 1

    Under W, large amount of tax breaks were put in place. However, they actually encouraged offshoring. At the same time, other tax changes were put in place that made it easy for companies like Google, MS, Apple, etc to shift profits offshore. This needs to stop.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    1. Re:the USA really needs to re-do taxes by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Change ot our tax policy do need to change, especially these loophole. But they idea of re-doing the taxes in mass is a bad one.

      The changes we really need are:
      Close the off shoring loop holes
      Tax all 'wall street' trades at .007 percent (7 cents per 1000 dollars)
      Remove tax deduction for non profit.
      Charge non profit taxes.

      They won't because people are emotionally attached to those thing, but they would solve are economic issues while providing some defense vs. the next down cycle.

      Really, if they did that, they would have enough money to lower the retirement age, which mean more baby boomers out of the job market.

      Also, will someone please tell people that if the go to get a degree in a field where there are on jobs, they won't get a job in that field.

      If I here one more history major talk about how they could get a job and are in debt I'm going to scream. As if a Bachelors in history would ever get you ANYTHING except the ability to move towards a masters. . . and then maybe teach.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    2. Re:the USA really needs to re-do taxes by reasterling · · Score: 1

      Remove tax deduction for non profit.
      Charge non profit taxes.

      I assume you are referring to "for profit" businesses who claim to not be making a profit. I would hate to think that your solution to the mess with large corporations avoiding taxes can be fixed by taxing non profit businesses.

      --
      "For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice" -- God
  37. Everybody Does It by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There's no duty to pay more tax then you legally have to. This loophole was bought and paid for by corporate lobbyists. It common strategy for multinationals. The tax law is like your laundry - It gets so dirty it becomes unusable followed by a clean up followed by corruption and the cycle continues.

  38. You Are Getting Dicked So Very Hard by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And you don't even know it.

  39. Good by geekoid · · Score: 1, Troll

    I like Google. Really like them, but this is good.
    While the off shore practice they utilize isn't uncommon for large corporation, it is wrong.
    Double Irish and Dutch Sandwich, and other loopholes need to be closed. If it means putting a company I like in the hot seat, so be it.

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  40. The Problem is Simple by NicknamesAreStupid · · Score: 2

    If you believe that every system has flaws, then you might be able to see when it may fail. For example, the income tax system has always been ham handed. Those who understood it well enough could always slip between the regulations to avoid some or all of it. In the early days, about 90 years ago, most people ignored them. In the 1940s, they passed payroll withholding and started collecting from those who were employed by others.

    When most of the revenues were coming from a large "middle class" the system worked because it was easier to pay the government than to pay a tax attorney to find the cracks. People who were really rich could still afford to pay tax attorneys to minimize or limit their taxes, but it was a relatively small percentage of federal income tax revenues.

    But as wealth began to concentrate, an industry of bright financial and legal professionals flourished, allowing more income to be shielded from the IRS. The rich, who got richer, weighed the cost of the tax verses the cost of testing the tax avoidance in tax court and decided the best return was "playing in the gray." The IRS has no choice but to go to tax court when someone challenges them. They do not have enough people to fight every rich person or company. Often, the well-paid lawyers of the taxpayers are better versed on the law than the civil servant IRS lawyers. As the rich get richer, they influence tax laws to gain a greater advantage. Eventually you have a society of people who are either too poor to pay much tax or a few too rich to need to pay tax. That is when the tax system fails. Frankly, no tax system can succeed when the money is too closely held by a few.

    The irony is that we tax productivity. Imagine a company going to its most productive people and cutting their pay as they worked harder and better. There is a better way to collect federal revenue -- http://www.forbes.com/sites/kellyphillipserb/2011/09/02/guest-post-income-tax-alternative/ .

    1. Re:The Problem is Simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We tax productivity? Are you fucking kidding me?
      These CEOs that have to shoulder such enormous "risk", they're so productive with their multimillion dollar salaries and multimillion dollar bonuses on top. That's why they see such outrageous tax rates, because they're so... productive. They produce so much. They produce on average 500 times more than their underlings, as suggested by the discrepancy in salary.
      Really. We tax productivity. You, sir, are an asshat.
      Productivity is entirely untaxed. You can be as productive as you want and not pay a single penny in taxes. You can produce the entire GDP and still not pay a penny in taxes. The only catch is that you can't be a greedy bastard and fill up your bank account. You see, productivity doesn't necessarily imply income or profits. It implies that something is produced. The fact is that wealthy people are delusional sociopaths, trying to suck every last dollar from the pockets of anyone else. It's not their productivity that's taxed (because wealthy people have no incentive to be productive), it's their greed (which seems infinite). For some reason, that point seems lost on you.
      But yes, spin it your way. We tax productivity. You make my blood boil, and I hope you live to see the day when the masses tire of their serfdom and rise up to take what was once theirs.

    2. Re:The Problem is Simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is a better way to collect federal revenue -- http://www.forbes.com/sites/kellyphillipserb/2011/09/02/guest-post-income-tax-alternative/ .

      Taxing currency through depreciating its value, interesting concept. Would be impossible to implement with any existing physical currency infrastructure, however, as it is far too complicated to track. Tell me, you want to pay for a meal that's $16.50, you have a 10 dollar bill from 2 years ago, five 1 dollar bills ranging from 3 years ago to this year, 4 quarters from 1993, 1998, 2001, and 2007, and 10 dimes ranging from 2006 to present. Given a rate of 1% depreciation a year, do you have enough money for this bill? How much is your change if you do?

      This could only be done in a purely electronic currency market, where the depreciation is performed in the background, transparent to the end users, and the systems would tell you exactly how much money you have at any given moment. What are the chances that the United States migrates to a purely electronic currency and kills the greenback and coins to make such a system possible? The answer to that question basically negates any reason to further investigate whether or not it'd be an effective method of taxing.

    3. Re:The Problem is Simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is a better way to collect federal revenue -- http://www.forbes.com/sites/kellyphillipserb/2011/09/02/guest-post-income-tax-alternative/ [forbes.com] .

      What is the difference between explicit depreciation as described in the article and implicit depreciation which happens when the Federal Reserve issues more money?

      What strikes me as the problem with it is that if the US government uses that as their exclusive means of taxation is that it may stop being used as a de facto standard international currency, and the rich could still avoid it by keeping any money that isn't tied up in property or investments in a foreign currency bank account, that in turn would lead to most of the taxes coming from the poor who can't feasibly run a foreign currency bank account.

  41. Loopholes are a big business by jdastrup · · Score: 1

    I'm all for getting rid of tax loopholes, exemptions, deductions, tax credits, etc. but one of the biggest problems with getting rid of them is there are entire industries that exist only because these exceptions exists. For example, CPA's, accountants, auditors, the IRS!!! If you get rid of all exceptions and go to a simple flat tax rate, you instantly have destroyed thousands of business and caused I don't know how many hundreds of thousands of people to lose their job. Which politician in their right mind (i.e. wants to be elected or re-elected) would want to be responsible for adding to the unemployment problem in the US right now?

    1. Re:Loopholes are a big business by ErikZ · · Score: 1

      The cash flows have shrunk dramatically. So the government will pick itself over all those "Job holders", every time.

      You can't fix this, but you can lessen the damage by having a small government.

      --
      Democrats or Republicans. They are both taking us to the same place and they are not afraid of us anymore.
    2. Re:Loopholes are a big business by UnknownSoldier · · Score: 1

      > For example, CPA's, accountants, auditors, the IRS!!! If you get rid of all exceptions and go to a simple flat tax rate, you instantly have destroyed thousands of business and caused I don't know how many hundreds of thousands of people to lose their job.

      Cry me a river. So lets keep a BROKEN system because change is SO DIFFICULT. Yeah, nice ":solution:" there ...

      The biggest problem with America is that there are too many useless Lawyers and Accountants that produce NOTHING of value except shuffle money around; Laws are completely over-engineer solely based on greed. The only real lasting solution is to completely remove the financial motivation for this stupidity.

      "Bureaucracy expands to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy" - Oscar Wilde on [Redundancy] Bureaucracy

      --
      Show me ONE country that has not collapsed and I'll show you haven't waited long enough.

    3. Re:Loopholes are a big business by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you get rid of all exceptions and go to a simple flat tax rate, you instantly have destroyed thousands of business and caused I don't know how many hundreds of thousands of people to lose their job.

      Non sequitur. For starters, eliminating exceptions doesn't, by itself, imply a flat tax rate.

  42. Thank you Google! by Charliemopps · · Score: 0

    That's $1billion less per year our government can use to invade other countries, assassinate US citizens, build networks and software that monitor it's citizenry. The idea that it's wrong to avoid giving people that barely qualify as "elected" officials billions of dollars to waste, or spend on countless immoral and corrupt programs is just silly. If there's a legal way to get out of paying taxes, it's your patriotic duty to do it.

    1. Re:Thank you Google! by CtownNighrider · · Score: 1

      That's assuming government spending is tied to a budget based on how much money they actually have.

  43. Tax avoidance, Google, Warren Buffet, ... by perpenso · · Score: 1

    A Dollar says that Google management has major sympathies towards the Occupy [movement].

    Like Warren Buffet employing various tax avoidance strategies while arguing that his taxes should be raised?

    1. Re:Tax avoidance, Google, Warren Buffet, ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ^^^^ THIS. ^^^^

      When Warren Buffet said he wanted his tax rate to be higher, he meant he wanted everyone *who doesn't have the some of the best tax accountants and lawyers in the world working for them* to pay more. That takes money out of their pockets and makes it harder for them to compete with him. I.e. he's using government as a weapon against his competitors.

    2. Re:Tax avoidance, Google, Warren Buffet, ... by Algae_94 · · Score: 1

      I think Buffet was implying that the current tax system allows him to get away with extremely low net tax rates. I think he honestly wants the system to be reformed somehow to raise his and other ultra-wealthy individuals net tax rates. This could be through closing down tax avoidance methods or just raising his tax rate so the money that is taxed gets hit at a higher rate. I know Buffet is a shrewd business man, but I believe he's reached a level of success and a point in his life that he would like to see beneficial changes made and not just try to screw his competition with taxes as a weapon.

    3. Re:Tax avoidance, Google, Warren Buffet, ... by Tsingi · · Score: 1
      I believe that Warren Buffet, aside from being a very shrewd businessman, is a very moral person. He recognizes that the current structure of the money system will bring about the downfall of the middle class and basically screw the whole country. Except for the very rich.

      OWS is the camels back breaking.

    4. Re:Tax avoidance, Google, Warren Buffet, ... by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

      No, he meant that he wants every rich person's taxes to be higher. Until they are, he will reduce his taxes as part of his legal obligation to fiduciary responsibility he owes his shareholders.

      You Republicans will lie about anything, no matter how stupid.

      --

      --
      make install -not war

    5. Re:Tax avoidance, Google, Warren Buffet, ... by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

      Reminds me of the media mogul Kerry Packer who was dragged before a senate enquiry here in Oz.

      From the link - When asked about his company's tax minimisation schemes, he replied: "Of course I am minimising my tax. And if anybody in this country doesn't minimise their tax, they want their heads read, because as a government, I can tell you you're not spending it that well that we should be donating extra!" There's also a youtube clip showing the highlights of his testimony.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
  44. I look forward by esocid · · Score: 1

    To seeing GE, Apple, Oracle, IBM all audited.

    I don't know what would be worse, if this gets modded as funny or insightful.

    --
    Absolute power corrupts absolutely. indymedia
  45. GAO has known for years by mrquagmire · · Score: 1

    The Government Accountability Office knew about this over three years ago and released this study:

    Effective Tax Rates Are Correlated with Where Income Is Reported
    http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d08950.pdf

    Comparison of the Reported Tax Liabilities of Foreign- and U.S.-Controlled Corporations, 1998-2005
    http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d08957.pdf

    And a CNN Money article from around then:
    http://money.cnn.com/2008/08/12/news/economy/corporate_taxes/

    --
    giggity
  46. The problem is defining income by Maximum+Prophet · · Score: 1

    Corporate income it too nebulous a concept to remove *all* the loopholes.

    For your average wage slave, income it pretty simple. It's your paycheck.

    For a corporation, income = gross revenue - expenses.

    We can monkey with both revenue and expenses. It's obvious that raw materials are an expense, but is the CEO's limo a necessary expense? If a customer places a big order with a contract that covers many years, when is the corporation required to report that as income? What happens when you report income, but the costumer goes bankrupt and the bankruptcy judge takes back a payment?

    Hollywood has the most egregious examples of "creative" accounting, but all corporations do it. What you call a loophole, an accountant calls business as usual.

    --
    All ideas^H^H^H^H^Hprocesses in this post are Patent Pending. (as well as the process of patenting all postings)
    1. Re:The problem is defining income by billcopc · · Score: 1

      The examples you cite are all documented in the tax code. What most people - and by people I mean accountants and auditors - consider "creative accounting" is when extra steps are taken to reclassify income and expenses under lower-taxed umbrellas.

      As a simple example, well I'm a consultant dealing in app dev, network admin and the occasional preconfigured server. In my case, I just report as a sole proprietorship and everything is quite straight-forward as far as taxes are concerned, but if I wanted to be sneaky, I could create a handful of LLCs, transfer all my assets to a one company, handle all the actual money in another company, and declare myself an employee of a third company. Finally, all my LLCs become consumers and providers to each other. This type of arrangement is actually quite common with small-to-medium businesses, and what it does is limit the liability of any one division. For example, suppose I were to bungle a job and the consulting arm got sued by a client, I could bankrupt that particular LLC without harming the asset holding company, nor the money holding company. It's a bit more complicated in practice, but that's the gist of it.

      When those LLC sandboxes grow overly complex and contrived, that's when people start speaking of creative accounting. Keep in mind, one company's expense is another one's income, so the more layers of bullshit there are, the easier it is to sneak in expenses that don't match up with another LLC's income. If one of those sandboxes is a publicly traded company, the complexity of this financial Rube Goldberg machine grows by an order of magnitude.

      --
      -Billco, Fnarg.com
  47. so is anyone auditing General Electric? by Lead+Butthead · · Score: 1

    while IRS audits Google, GE continues to pay ZERO corporate income tax, and DAMN PROUD OF IT.

    --
    ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI!?
  48. Corporations don't pay taxes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Economists argue about whether the taxes come from employees, customers or shareholders, but no rational economist or accountant thinks that the corporations pay them.

    Evolutionarily speaking, 'money buys power', so in the long-run it isn't the stockholders who pay.

  49. State level by ThatsNotPudding · · Score: 1

    If you lower it and remove all "loopholes" and exclusions, then everybody pays it. It's pretty simple, really.

    Essentially meaningless if states are still allowed to keep offering bribes in the form of zero taxes for the first x years, fueling a race to the bottom in the form of devastated state budgets and slave-wages.

  50. Corporations aren't evil. They're not anything. by FriendlyPrimate · · Score: 2, Insightful

    This whole argument that "corporations are evil" and "corporations should pay their fair share" is based on the bizarre human tendency to anthropomorphize corporations (and groups of people in general). Saying corporations should pay their fair share of taxes is really no different from saying my wallet should pay it's fair share of taxes based on the money it has in it.

    Corporations shouldn't be taxed, period. Money that comes OUT of that corporation through stock dividends and wages and bonuses and perks should be taxed. And that should all be taxed as plain old income, not special kinds of income like "capital gains" that has lower rates to compensate for corporate taxes already taken out.

    I'm also highly in favor of targeted VATs. For example, the FDA should be entirely funded on a VAT levied on food and drugs. And if people want their food to be safer, then they have to agree to raise the food VAT to pay for it. And if people want to lower taxes by reducing the food VAT, then they have to deal with less safe food. And the FDA would be legally required to have a balanced budget (i.e. they would only get to spend whatever money they got through food and drug VATs). Same goes for all other government spending. For example, the military should be paid for with an X% 'military' income tax, and ONLY the revenue from that tax. If people want to increase military spending, then the only way to do so is to increase the military income tax. I strongly believe that taxes and spending were tightly coupled like this, most people wouldn't have a problem with taxes, and that it could be a path to balanced budgets in this country. But today, nobody wants to pay taxes because it all goes into a huge slush fund with no apparent accountability on how those funds are spent. Why would any sane person want to spend more on taxes in the current system?

    1. Re:Corporations aren't evil. They're not anything. by epine · · Score: 1

      Corporations shouldn't be taxed, period.

      That's one way to do it. I might even agree if we deleveraged corporate ownership.

      If A and B own 51% and 49% respectively of C, and C owns 51% of D, then when there's a vote in company D, B gets .49*.51 percent of the vote. But that's not how it presently works.

      Do you even see the connection? Wallets don't own and control other wallets.

    2. Re:Corporations aren't evil. They're not anything. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In your targeted system, who should pay for the military? The military will be funded through spoils of war?

    3. Re:Corporations aren't evil. They're not anything. by jwhitener · · Score: 1

      Corporations shouldn't be taxed, period. Money that comes OUT of that corporation through stock dividends and wages and bonuses and perks should be taxed. And that should all be taxed as plain old income, not special kinds of income like "capital gains" that has lower rates to compensate for corporate taxes already taken out.
       

      A corporation does have a bank account(s), and once stocks, wages, perks, costs, etc.. are paid, there is still profit left over going into the bank. You're saying that basic corporate profit (after expenses, wages, etc..) shouldn't be taxed?

    4. Re:Corporations aren't evil. They're not anything. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That sounds good but I don't see where the accountability comes from. So you have a 10% VAT on food/drugs and that buys you 10% food/drug safety? What does that mean? If there is a huge e coli outbreak the FDA will of course say that it's because the VAT needs to be 12% to pay for more inspectors, rather than blame their own incompetence spending the 10% (this is a hypothetical, I have little knowledge of the competence of the FDA).

      Will congress still fiddle with how exactly each agency spends it's money? Of course. Congress will force DoD to buy less cost effective weapon systems or force the FDA to spend X% of their budget researching the disease du jour.

    5. Re:Corporations aren't evil. They're not anything. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Corporations shouldn't be taxed, period.

      If corporations shouldn't be taxed then they also shouldn't have the right to provide political donations.

    6. Re:Corporations aren't evil. They're not anything. by DRJlaw · · Score: 1

      Corporations shouldn't be taxed, period. Money that comes OUT of that corporation through stock dividends and wages and bonuses and perks should be taxed. And that should all be taxed as plain old income, not special kinds of income like "capital gains" that has lower rates to compensate for corporate taxes already taken out.

      Which more or less ignores the fact that the old-timey notion of paying a stock dividend which even approaches net corporate profits gave its death rattle in the 1990s and has not come back despite record corporate profits.

      Instead, corporations choose to amass extremely large liquid asset positions for purposes that are questionable even by modern business standards.

      Yet you propose to eliminate taxes on corporate profits while increasing taxes on corporate dividends and long term capital gaings (note: capital gains are irrelevant unless attributable to a stock buy-back, since other stock appreciation is merely an increase in the price that another buyer is willing to pay a seller). That would tend to silo even more wealth into the de facto treasuries that have grown up in the 90s and 00s, as opposed to directing wealth into the hands of individuals (the beneficiaries of the funds typically holding stock) and, partially, the government.

      I'm reasonably certain that corporations benefit from and directly use government services. There is no philosophical reason why a corporation that is earning a long term average profit should not be subject to taxation in order to pay for those benefits and services, yet natural persons earning non-trivial incomes should. The "fair share" argument has very little to do with anthropomorphisis, and quite a bit more to do with a sense that the seemingly accelerating trend of externalizing the corporate share of the costs of running our society cannot continue.

      What you're advocating is that "everything" (yes, not literally everything) be paid for by personal income taxes or consumption taxes as opposed to personal income taxes, corporate taxes, and sales taxes. What you're failing to consider is the effect on investment and wealth distribution. Point to a non-trivial nation that has implemented anything close to what you're advocating and look at the effects on that society. Note that the tax havens that spring to my mind, like Bermuda, are trivial nations in the sense that the corporate revenue that is being complained of is more or less disconnected from acutal corporate economic activity in that nation.

    7. Re:Corporations aren't evil. They're not anything. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This whole argument that "corporations are evil" and "corporations should pay their fair share" is based on the bizarre human tendency to anthropomorphize corporations (and groups of people in general). Saying corporations should pay their fair share of taxes is really no different from saying my wallet should pay it's fair share of taxes based on the money it has in it.

      Corporations shouldn't be taxed, period. Money that comes OUT of that corporation through stock dividends and wages and bonuses and perks should be taxed. And that should all be taxed as plain old income, not special kinds of income like "capital gains" that has lower rates to compensate for corporate taxes already taken out.

      I'm also highly in favor of targeted VATs. For example, the FDA should be entirely funded on a VAT levied on food and drugs. And if people want their food to be safer, then they have to agree to raise the food VAT to pay for it. And if people want to lower taxes by reducing the food VAT, then they have to deal with less safe food. And the FDA would be legally required to have a balanced budget (i.e. they would only get to spend whatever money they got through food and drug VATs). Same goes for all other government spending. For example, the military should be paid for with an X% 'military' income tax, and ONLY the revenue from that tax. If people want to increase military spending, then the only way to do so is to increase the military income tax. I strongly believe that taxes and spending were tightly coupled like this, most people wouldn't have a problem with taxes, and that it could be a path to balanced budgets in this country. But today, nobody wants to pay taxes because it all goes into a huge slush fund with no apparent accountability on how those funds are spent. Why would any sane person want to spend more on taxes in the current system?

      Corporations receive certain advantages that are not available to non-corporations. One of them is the whole "limited liability thing", another is never facing estate taxes. With limited liability, the government takes rights away from people and funnels them to a private organization under the assumption that this results in general benefits that offset the behavior. If Libertarians were sincere, they would call for the end of corporations on that basis alone.

      As far as targeted taxes, there are issues there too. Some government programs are funded by designated taxes, but there have been problems. One is the tendency of the legislature to stop spending on the programs so the surplus is counted as offsetting the deficit. Another is the issue of non-tax related spending added in. For example, the roads tax pays for mass transit, because the cities receiving the mass transit subsidies are in states where the amount spent on roads would not make the statutory 95% for the state without it.

  51. Or like GE, or like a lot of other corporations by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Could Microsoft have clout with the IRS?

    I don't support these corporate tax dodges, but way single out Google?

    Crazy idea: do away with corporate tax, and raise taxes on the rich. MNCs are not paying US taxes anyway, so why give the MNCs even more incentive to move jobs offshore?

    1. Re:Or like GE, or like a lot of other corporations by Voyager529 · · Score: 1

      Could Microsoft have clout with the IRS?

      Given that every desktop and likely plenty of the servers at the IRS run Windows and Office, I'd love to watch them say "audit our books, and we'll revoke every license to every Microsoft product purchased by every arm of the federal, state, and local governments". Now *that* would be be a funny show to watch.

    2. Re:Or like GE, or like a lot of other corporations by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      Yeah I thought Google was supposed to be BFFs with the US government, what happened?

      BTW the rich can easily avoid personal taxes by living for over 6 months in a low-tax jurisdiction. So that's a loophole you have to keep in mind.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    3. Re:Or like GE, or like a lot of other corporations by Tsingi · · Score: 1

      Could Microsoft have clout with the IRS?

      Given that every desktop and likely plenty of the servers at the IRS run Windows and Office, I'd love to watch them say "audit our books, and we'll revoke every license to every Microsoft product purchased by every arm of the federal, state, and local governments". Now *that* would be be a funny show to watch.

      It would be funny to watch them try. They couldn't do it to you (legally) let alone the IRS.

    4. Re:Or like GE, or like a lot of other corporations by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

      What happened is that neither Google nor "the US government" is a single entity, that could be BFFs" with anything. Big corporations and the Federal government are a lot more complex than that.

      --

      --
      make install -not war

  52. tax rates stifle competition by witherstaff · · Score: 1

    Big companies using their political influence for better tax rates is not only good for their bottom line, it stops new startups from possibly threatening them. You see this with tax breaks also, a small startup will not get the tax exceptions for opening unless they bring in a large chunk of new employees all at once. When you can have a corporate staff of hundreds (Didn't GE have about 1000 tax lawyers?) it does make you far more competitive. Just more hurdles for all entrepreneurs out there.

    I'm glad Cain's 9-9-9 plan is at least getting some coverage. I don't believe it's the best solution but a universally applied simple tax code, without being riddled with loopholes, does seem like a great idea. Of course those are the exact reasons why we'll never see one implemented.

  53. The overhead is high by sirwired · · Score: 1

    While you can indeed pick up a Incorporation Kit from Staples for $15, that isn't going to get you a corporation that will stand up to any kind of scrutiny. A corporation needs true independence from the people running it in order to qualify as a "real" corporation. This means real accounting, shares, shareholder meetings, etc. You can bet that if corporate profits were exempt from income tax, the IRS would start playing REAL close attention to small corps to see if they met the rules.

    1. Re:The overhead is high by Anthony+Mouse · · Score: 1

      Given that you need to do the same stuffs in order to get limited liability, the little guy already has to do it regardless of the tax consequences. Unless he fancies losing his house as well as his business in the event that an employee screws ups and gets the company sued.

    2. Re:The overhead is high by swillden · · Score: 1

      Plus for most sole proprietorships it's a moot point anyway. So what if the company isn't taxed? Every penny taken out to buy groceries, make house and car payments, etc., will be. There's no difference between taxing the company and taxing the owner because they're the same thing.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
  54. Re:Taxes? LOL by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And ultimately, these sort of systematic problems are why so many people are pissed off at wallstreet right now.

  55. Capital Gains tax rates... by zenyu · · Score: 1

    Corporations shouldn't be taxed, period. Money that comes OUT of that corporation through stock dividends and wages and bonuses and perks should be taxed. And that should all be taxed as plain old income, not special kinds of income like "capital gains" that has lower rates to compensate for corporate taxes already taken out.

    The biggest problem with this is that if you don't have a different rate for capital gains and dividends then inflation will mean that even if you sell an asset at a loss when adjusted for inflation you will end up paying taxes. This means there will be a disincentive to sell under-performing assets to someone who might make better use of the asset. I would say have the same rate as other income, but also allow deductions based on the same official inflation rate as is used to adjust social security payments. Right now capital gains taxes are way too low on goods held year and a day to about 10 years. The Crazy Eddie rates on capital gains mean businesses are highly encouraged to convert their income into capital gains via acquisitions that may not make a whole lot of sense in terms of overall profitability. This means that a tax being too low actually hurts growth because of its distorting effect.

    If you got rid of the corporate income tax and replaced capital gains by regular income tax minus inflation adjustments, I think that would help businesses of all sizes a great deal. But the income tax rates might have to be adjusted upwards to make up for the income shortfall, and if you did the change too quickly the capital flows to adjust to the new tax regime might be problematic (though in terms of political will it is when the economy is bad is really the best time to make this type of large structural change.)

    To those saying why does it matter what the tax rate is... Tiny but growing businesses do pay the top tax rates; you need to build up cash on hand disproportionate to the size of the business when you are growing rapidly. It's not good for prices or for jobs to quell competition against established players via tax policy.

  56. "No Corporation Pays Taxes"? by sirwired · · Score: 1

    So, when Boeing sells an aircraft made in Washington to some other random country, makes a profit, and pays taxes on it, this is some indirect way of hiding tax from US Citizens? How does that work exactly?

    And Cain's proposal simply will not work in practice. An extremely high sales tax (in addition to LOWERING the standard of living by those too poor to save money by the amount of the tax) will be evaded. Constantly. Transactions simply move "underground."

    And a national (high) sales tax would still have plenty of complications. Do you tax goods AND services? What's a "good", and what's a "service"? If I buy lumber to build a building, who pays the tax, or is the tax assessed multiple times? We have the guy that owned the stand of trees, the company that logged it, the company that milled it, the distributor that sold it, the builder that put something together with it, and the person that bought the building. Do we assess a massive sales tax at every link in the chain? That really hurts innovation by giving a gigantic advantage to vertically integrated conglomerates. If the person that bought the building is the only one that pays the tax, what happens when he turns around and sub-divides it? What do we do when he tears the building down and salvages it, is the lumber taxed again? Do we set up a Value Added Tax system? If so, that isn't very "simple" at all... it's a huge administrative burden and area of law in countries that use one.

    These are not trivial questions, and they all have all kinds of ways of avoidance and loopholes, which you can be sure would be VERY common once there is a 30% tax to evade.

    And I'm a little confused as to what Unions have to do with anything... what do Unions have to do with the tax system?

  57. Corporations Are Not Persons by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

    A corporation like Google can do this shell game with its taxable income, because it can split into multiple entities at will, locating any one anywhere in the world it's more advantageous, on any short notice. Without traveling across borders and customs. Without fearing arrest or even death - because those are human fears. They're not persons, they don't have rights. And they're robbing us to death.

    --

    --
    make install -not war

  58. Yuh Huh by Greyfox · · Score: 1

    But if I incorporate and create a tax haven in the Caymin Islands, the IRS would be on me with an anal probe faster than I can type "The IRS is on my with an anal probe." So even if I try to play by those rules, I can't play by those rules. And I'd be evading a lot less than a billion dollars worth of taxes.

    --

    I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?

  59. We need more US Jobs by chrismarklee · · Score: 1

    I think we all can agree we need more US Jobs Both parties need to work together using a lot of policies to achieve this Tax policies does effect where a business will Locate Chris Owner Cel Financial Services CTEC Tax Preparer Registered Bonded California Please visit my website for all your Fillmore Income tax needs. http://www.taxprepfillmore.com/

  60. Now Google is the target of the establishment by Ramin_HAL9001 · · Score: 1

    Despite all of Google's privacy regressions (which by the way, are not nearly as bad as Facebook's) they have done a good job of shaking-up the establishment by making a lot of information free and easily available. This makes them the enemy of the establishment, that losely-knit group of corporate/government/media who are not necessarily working together, but all operate on the same corrupt principles.

    I am guessing that Google doesn't do a good enough job of obeying these principles. Now, a tax-dodge which the IRS tends to overlook when other corporations do it, is being used as an excuse to go after Google.

    This is a warning to Google. The establishment is saying: act like a real (corrupt) corporation or be destroyed by our gang of lawyers, politicians, and federal investigators.

  61. That's anarchy by sirwired · · Score: 1

    Ah, Roman_mir again...

    Your 0 0 0 plan is anarchy, pure and simple. Govt, of a large country, in a useful form, requires money in order to operate.

    We tried to run a government on the 0 0 0 plan; it was called the Articles of Confederation. They didn't work, hence the Constitution.

    You want to cut 99.99% of the government? At 2010 levels, that would leave you with a Federal Budget of approx. $345 Million. That ain't enough to provide Defense, Customs/Immigration, and Diplomacy; the most basic services of any Sovereign nation, much less Provide for the Common Defense, Promote the General Welfare, and Secure the Blessings of Liberty for Ourselves and Posterity. It's about a $1.10 per person.