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Study: Online Dating Makes People "Picky" and "Unrealistic"
New submitter garthsundem writes with this tale of digital love: "A newly published meta-analysis of over 400 studies of online dating (PDF) shows both its popularity (second only to meeting through friends) and its impact. More online daters report seeking a 'soulmate' online, and do so by searching through the wealth of available profiles. Unfortunately soul-searchers focus on faults, both in viewing profiles and then also once dating in person, leading to quick exits when relationships inevitably get complicated."
That online dating has made the average man behave like the average woman.
Life is series of compromises. Online or not, there is certain group out there who thinks they
need (worse, deserve) "soul mate". Good thing with physical world is, these people will be
notorious in the town, friends circle and lose any chance of meeting decent folks.
But in Online world, they have luxury of keeping going through profiles and waste their
money, time and other peoples time. How else these "dating sites" make money ?
FFS. There are /.ers who are capable of rewriting the entire Linux kernel in three lines of Perl, and yet cannot differentiate between "it's" and "its".
If you wanted a hook-up, you went to a bar.
If you wanted a girl you could marry and bring to your parents, you went to church.
Now it's like this....
If you want a hook-up, go to match or similar (free) websites
If you want to find a girl you might marry go to eharmony
If you just want a hooker you go craigslist...
Previewing comments are for sissies!
I guess it turns dating into something like shopping for a T.V. everyone wants what they feel is the best deal.
I may be getting old at a ripe age of 32 but perhaps the best way to meet someone isn't with a bunch of stats and information next to them, but rather to meet them out face-to-face and learn about eachother as you go along.
I can think of a couple reasons why this happens. As a male who spent a few years online dating myself, and seeing both sides of the fence.
Guys terribly outnumber women on these sites. Women get many many many requests, and it's pretty much pick of the litter for them. Even if they don't get picky, they get jaded due to the idiots trying anything to get a woman interested. It's akin to trying to find an email from your family while sifting through endless penis enlargement emails.
There's always someone better looking or more interesting out there and dating sites make these people known to you .Be it through contact with them or the mere presence of their profile online. It's almost a carrot and stick game. It's so much easier to stop seeing someone who doesn't completely interest you when there are other potential mates out there.
The ability to be picky with online dating is the whole point! You can put all of your cards on the table before ever even meeting someone. In this busybody world, people don't want to have to go through traditional dating, only to find out months into a relationship about some strong deal breaker like wanting kids. That's just a disappointing waste of time and people are starting to realize it.
If you're looking for someone to spend your life with, you damned well should be picky. For the record, I met my partner online many years ago on a niche dating site, so maybe I'm a little biased.
Would help the process
My theory is that since online dating has a lower barrier to entry, it attracts people who wouldn't otherwise be "ready" to find their soulmate. It's like PHP; it can be a powerful tool, but because it's easy there's a lot of crap code out there.
Disclaimer: Met my wife and soulmate on OkCupid. :^)
It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
- E. Debs
Why not be picky? Have you seen the stats for divorce lately? Anything is better if it helps people have good relationships instead settling for whatever came along when got fed up.
True love is unrealistic. That doesn't mean it's a bad goal.
I'm currently dating a wonderful girl I met online after many years of not finding anyone I would spend my life with. Had I not been 'picky' I could have settled for any number of other women that wouldn't make me happy. Why would I do that to myself?
"If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you." - DM
...it's television, movies, glamour magazines, and many other forms of "art" and "culture" that are very heavily pushed upon a market.
It's been my experience that many women that met the physical/appearance standards that are promoted to us were at minimum highly narcissistic, and at worst bat-shit-fucking-crazy. It took me awhile to understand this, and on a techie note, to understand how damaged the former-BBSer women of the early to mid nineties at the tail end of the craze were. Generally damaged, each and every one, and we're not talking scratch-and-dent here either.
People, the dating pool is the pool of people who like to do the same things that you like to do. If there are no eligible people in your social circles, then you need to expand your social circles somewhat. That doesn't mean doing masculine or effeminate things if you don't want to, but you have to do something that you like to do that those you seek also like to do.
In my case it was swing and ballroom dance. It worked so well that I married and MIT graduate.
Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
I like this quote of a quote of a question from one of the articles:
Where else can you go in a matter of 20 minutes [and] look at 200 women who are single and want to go on dates?
Answer, a really big brothel? That analogy holds, neither give it up for free, unrealistic emotional expectations, seemingly everyones got a strong opinion about it and its participants, etc. Most participants just trying to have fun, fun way to catch a disease....
Workflow automation for business practices is well known for software devs, /.ers in general, etc. Much like "social media" is sort of an online automation software simulating the grade school playground social scene, I guess online dating is kind of like automation software for a brothel, sorta.
"Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
Funny that it takes a study to find this out. It should be obvious to anyone who is dating, online or not. The only real difference between online dating and real life dating is online dating allows one to find faults quicker so you can move on to the next 'loser'.
Besides, some reasons behind this situation have already been described.
We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
In my experience, the most popular dating sites (listed as type 1 in the article, like OKCupid and Match) are like giant bars. The women are hounded from all directions by men, and the men seem to have to fight to distinguish themselves. Every good friend I know that is female and on one of these sites is constantly bombarded and things quickly devolve into shallow initial impressions. I'm willing to bet most relationships started at bars are often shaky when things get real as well.
Being picky could also being understood as "trying to make out what is true and what is fabricated on a profile"
(Did not read TFA, obviously)
Regular dating makes people "picky" and "unrealistic"
I have friends that ,"I can only date a HOTTIE" and they are too freaking ugly, fat, etc to even get the attention of a normal girl. One friend is nearly 400 pounds and looks like the dough boy and thinks he will get a hot chick.
The REALITY is that many people are not only unrealistic, but they are shallow and have a twisted sense of the world.
Also remember, All Hot chicks are insane, but not all insane chicks are hot.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Nonsense. Online dating allows us to construct our personalities as we wish they would be. This lets people know who we are within, not who we are on the outside.
Sincerely,
M4W, 21, multi-millionaire, own several yachts, spend all my time on charity, have a 12" penis
For someone as picky as me online dating was the only way to go. How else was I supposed to meet an intellectual who loves theater and books as much as I do in THE SOUTH? Been dating a girl for 7 months and she's even more awesome than any expectation her profile may have set. It didn't have anything about her boundless compassion.
... often screws up your chances too.
When I walk into a bar, I need only seconds to check out all the people. And I will definitely form an opinion about the women. Who says men aren't picky in the real world? And I suspect that women are even quicker at forming an opinion.
Study: it's easier to study the online world than the offline world.
What is the story with slashdot personals?
I "remember" this from something like a decade ago, but I don't remember much but the name and a couple anecdotes. The Mighty GOOG has failed me, or at least I'd have to wade thru more junk than I'm willing to.
I could swear we were doing something like a dating site linked to /.. I even remember a kuro5hin article flaming it for not being LGBT compatible, as if a site thats not even UTF-8 compatible is going to have that too.
I don't remember if it was serious or a joke or what. Probably because I was already married (still am, to the same chick even)
"Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
#1) Women don't actually want to go out with you. What they want is a male "pen-pal". They want you to write long emails to them which they can read in Starbucks while sipping their lattes.
#2) Avoid any woman who's profile claims she isn't seeking anyone who plays games or has baggage. Because she's the one who's playing games and has baggage.
#3) Yes, yes, yes, we all love wine, good food, long walks on the beach. Tell me what's unique about you, not what makes you the same as everyone else!
#3) After more than a decade of online dating, I've decided I'm happier by myself anyhow. When I crave "companionship", there are services for that.
If telephones are outlawed, then only outlaws will have telephones.
An interesting article originally posted by OKCupid (until they were bought and it was pulled down) explaining why you should never pay for online dating:
http://interestingreads.posterous.com/why-you-should-never-pay-for-online-dating-ok
Worth a read.
Avantslash - View Slashdot cleanly on your mobile phone.
Divorce coming through this week. HTH.
Comparing dozens and sometimes hundreds of possible dates may encourage a "shopping" mentality in which people become judgmental and picky, focusing exclusively on a narrow set of criteria like attractiveness or interests.
I always thought that's what dating was, shopping for your soul mate. The article continues to say that communicating over the internet creates unreal expectations. Well... yeah. I've talked to girls on the phone and gotten completely unrealistic expectations too. I'm not sure that's an effect of online dating or just not meeting face to face yet. You can't even expect this on the first date! Nobody reveals all their faults on the first date (Hell, I would never have had a date if I did!). Online dating sites are a good modern day tool, and the online equivalent of going to a singles bar, and if you've gone to a singles bar and actually gotten a date, you know it's trial and error.
You just gotta use your tools right! If you expect a computer to find your soulmate for you, then your expectation are definitely unrealistic.
It does happen though. I didn't expect it.
Why online dating will never work:
Jdogg: Hey
QT-Pie: Hey
Jdogg: whats goin on
QT-Pie: Nothing. Who are you?
Jdogg: Jdogg. Wanna cyber?
QT-Pie: what does that mean?
Jdogg: what are you wearing?
QT-Pie: T-shirt. Jeans.
Jdogg: Garter belt?
QT-Pie: Ummm...no.
Jdogg: Are we gonna cyber or not?
QT-Pie: uh, okay.
Jdogg: Sweet, I start by rubbing your ass all around. You love this.
Jdogg: You're wet already. I can smell your p*ssy stink from here.
QT-Pie: WHAT?!
Jdogg: I execute standing position 12 from the Kama Sutra. Passion fills the room. Your head is close to the ceiling fan.
Jdogg: You leave everything to Jdogg.
Jdogg: I am completely inside of you. You are my dick puppet. I put on a little play.
QT-Pie: This is weird. I should go.
Jdogg: I drop you on the ground, and lay a stripe down your back.
QT-Pie: A stripe?
Jdogg: I need a sandwich.
QT-Pie: You're a freak.
Jdogg: I was great. You loved it.
it's more of a cesspool than trying to date in person...run, run far away...
I think it's more likely that "Picky" and "Unrealistic" people eventually gravitate towards online dating because it allows them to be "Picky" and "Unrealistic" over a much larger selection of people they can eventually reject on superficial grounds. The majority of the people I know that are using these services are Fat, over 50, have bad jobs, and they want to meet people that are slender, under 30 and make good money. The few people I've met that have gotten a relationship off of one of these sites are usually nuts, and the relationship ends up being the kind you read about in the paper eventually.
If you want to meet a romantic interest you have 2 options:
1. Pick your favorite hobby, take classes, go on retreats, workshops, do the hobby with large groups of people... you will run into someone eventually.
2. Go to a bar, get drunk, hope you wake up next to someone you find attractive. (This has the highest probability of success.)
Slashdot lacks readers with experience on this topic.
That hasn't stopped anyone before.
Maybe there is a difference between countries, but the dutch sites are doing reasonably well. Finding/dating keeps on being frustrating, especially for the /. crowd since, well, this is not the sort of people adept with the best communication skills, so when using those sites my feeling was also that most other subscribers was too high demanding. But it worked in the end, also for a number of my family members (also non-tech females) and quite some friends.
And there are a lot of females too using it seriously and, although initially too high demanding, have come down to more realistic perspective. And it has become more widely accepted.
Is there a difference between countries (no US vs EU bashing intended)?
The original was better aka the famous "I put on my robe and wizard hat" routine
http://bash.org/?104383
"Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
If you're from some other wierdo religion, you are scored down. EHarmony's dirty little secret is that their "29" personality traits that they score you on is really all about if you're the right religion.
Notice of course that they never tell you exactly how their matching algorithm works.
The 5 worst dates I ever went on were through eHarmony. They weren't just a complete waste on time and money, they were one of the reasons I gave up entirely.
I mean, OK you met your wife... Goody for you, you're one of the lucky ones, maybe you're white, christian and from the midwest. I don't know.
But, it seems to me that their matching ability isn't really all it's cracked up to be, because my experience wasn't just bad, it was beyond bad.
If telephones are outlawed, then only outlaws will have telephones.
It is from bloodninja:
http://people.ambrosiasw.com/~andrew/funny/bloodcyber.html
What it does to me is lower my opinion of people.
Women who say they are looking for their "soulmate", then describe the hot male star dujour as the minimum physical requirements. On-line dating sites just confirm something I learned a long time ago by listening to what women say they want and watching what they actual go after and date. Women say they want a man with certain intangible qualities, but what they don't say is that they want those intangible qualities in a man with certain physical traits.
Men aren't any better. Madonna/Whore syndrome runs rampant and so many of the men on dating sites are complete douchebags, complete with the classic "shirtless pic taken in the bathroom mirror" that women often stop replying to anyone whose ad isn't exactly perfect in her eyes.
On-line dating just depresses me, shows me the worst in people, and makes me anti-social.
There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
All there is to know about 'soulmates' from 2:40 onwards: Chris Rock @ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jaqBRsTQgI
You're giving me the "it's not you, it's me" routine? I invented "it's not you, it's me". Nobody tells me it's them not me, if it's anybody it's me. - George
I can speak from experience on this topic. It appears to me that women are generally more picky, less realistic and more willing to hold out for their vision of what a perfect "match" is. I noticed this first when I read the profiles. I was immediately taken aback at the smarmy, fakeness of their self descriptions. I instantly picked up on the fact that most of them had some kind of "profile enhancement" done by the service, whether it was Match or whoever... The words and phrases used in the profiles were all similar, and sounded almost like a Mission Statement from some generic corporate marketing focus group.
We play the game with the bravery of being out of range
Save your money. Online dating is for poorly socialized basement dwellers.
Want to meet somebody nice? Try going out into the real world, and outside your comfort zone. Travel. Study something new. Change jobs. Move to another country. Then you'll meet lots of people; some may be date material, some will become lifelong friends, and a few will be special enough to share your life with. And that person, odds-on, will look nothing like what you imagined your partner to look like in your mind's eye.
Me? On a whim, I quit my job, moved to the other side of the world with nothing but the clothes on my back and my savings, and decided to start afresh. Six years later, I'm happily settled down with my lovely and very sweet, Spanish fiancee, only a few short years after I thought I'd be single forever.
It's what pickup nerds call "inner game". Work on growing as a person and being a balanced individual, and eventually everything else will fall into place.
Get out there, be bold, and have the courage to do something new and different. Don't waste your time on seedy websites.
It sounds like this possibility of making you "picky" isn't that much of a problem if people are actually getting successful relationships this way. In a sense you should be picky, you have to go through a lot of people to meet someone you really click with. And I don't care what the study says, after you've met more than say ten people through online dating, I'm sure you start to become more realistic, not less.
Democracy Now! - your daily, uncensored, corporate-free
Instead she should initiate contact herself.
This way she:
1. Eliminates any douchebag that doesn't let a women initiate contact.
2. Ignores all the douchebags emailing everyone.
3. Is less likely to be fooled by someone customizing their email to her profile.
Note, this only works because other women are not emailing men. Everyone wants to be pursued - even the woman that call themselves dominant. But that idea simply works BADLY online. Too many men doing the pursuing.
It also takes a woman smart enough to realize that emailing a guy doesn't make her overly aggressive. Hell, even if you are a kinky submissive on an "adult" web site you can still email a guy in a submissive way. It's about what you say, not who wrote first.
excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
Since it's too loud to talk in a bar or club, appearance is the only thing you have to go by.
Godaddy is a scam and a ripoff.
It is no doubt sexist but girls who reach puberty are very attractive to a large age range of men. Boys of the same age, only to Catholic priests. For women, it is looks that count. For men, it is success, power, confidence. Not saying that all women are gold diggers only after a wallet but confidence is something you gain overtime, with success, with power, with age. And when you couldn't get a 18yr old at 18, why would you date that girl who is now 40 when she has been used up and now desperate when with your status gain, you can get a nice young girl?
Dating sites reflect this. I have worked on two and the database clearly showed that the women tended to be more experienced (read: many failed relationships) and fed up with it and now trying to find something more longterm. Generally these women show little self-awareness of why they are this situation, 30 something with just as many boyfriends and nothing permanent.
Men are slightly more realistic but to negative. A lot of 30yr old men who now feel they have power/money to pretend to be confident are really hateful to women who they believe are now only interested because of their cash.
When these two groups meet, mis-communication is rife, a lot of men are simply not prepared to accept that a women their own age has more experience, they don't want second hand goods or even 30th hand goods. The women on the other hand don't quite get why men they turned down for years are not falling over themselves like all the guys that came before. They don't see that the guys they had before were only there for the sex and nothing else.
The men might not have much experience with relationships but neither do the women. Being used as a booty call is after all not a relationship. The only thing these women are good at is failed relationships. Think of it like this: If you try a race circuit a thousand time and crash everytime at the first corner you are NOT more experienced at racing at that circuit then someone who never even been there. It is a complex concept but an essential one if you want to understand the dating scene. A one-night stand when he never calls again does NOT teach you how to make a relationship work. In fact, if that is your history for the last decade, it seems likely you will never learn.
A lot of people approach online-dating and other dating aids with this screwed up mind set, men who hate all women because they never had the guts so ask them out, girls who been used all their life thinking it is the fault of men that none of them saw how wonderful a person she really is, people with expectation that just don't exist in this world.
Real romances? Try this, do a poll among married couples for valentine gifts and on a dating site. The results might be very different, the married couples are realistic, the dating site will have stuff that even Spielberg couldn't make up.
It is true after all, normal people don't need dating sites. That does NOT mean you will only find freaks on dating sites. It means if you are using one, you are a freak. Accept this, take a long hard look in the mirror and ask yourself: "What is wrong with me that I have to use this". It is not wrong to use dating sites but if you think you are perfect when you have to use one... you are in for a disappointment.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
"I'm sorry, my responses are limited. You must ask the right questions."
This study doesn't query what the divorce rate is for couples who met via an online dating service. Year after year, more of my friends who met their spouses via traditional methods are getting divorced. If the rate is significantly lower for online-dating couples, then I say this is a good thing.
Now, as to my own story, I tried eHarmony (aka eDischord) a few years back. After enduring the lengthy questionnaire, I started the search. I was living in L.A. at the time so you might think that it's a target-rich environment. I punched in my usual desired criteria. No matches within a 10-mile radius. Widened to 25 miles. No matches. 50-mile radius. No matches. (50 miles in L.A. is a long-distance relationship, btw). 100-mile radius. No matches. Entire U.S. No matches. At that point, I started to turn off criteria. I pretty much had to turn off every search criteria before it came up with anything. Result: A hairdresser in Fresno. *facepalm* Seriously, Dr. Neil Clark Warren? Seriously? I'm an engineer in L.A. who owns his own business. What could I possibly have in common with a hairdresser in Fresno?
Only on slashdot would a guy complain about finding easy sex.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Like many things in life, it's only relevant if you live within driving distance of a first-world city.
I can reach an international airport by land, but that's about as close as I am connected to a first-world city.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
Watch it , that's how tPtB discredited Bob Lazar!
Although you'd think something like PROMIS might make a good model to build on.
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
That is literally the most exponentially pretentious and stupid thing I've ever read.
You (and the author of your source) appear to be assuming that happiness is influenced entirely by material things.
And if the tenfold increased in prosperity is evenly distributed, I doubt the formerly starving masses would be grumbling quite as as much as they were before.
Cliché aside, no it isn't.
Except they don't. A particular CPU will have the same specs whether it's the first one off the line or the last. They didn't make 25 MHz 486s on Monday morning and by Tuesday afternoon they were churning ones out that run at 25.00001 MHz. Car manufacturers don't make changes willy nilly because it disrupts production and would make servicing a nightmare if every car was different; instead they switch over to a distinct, discrete new model. A water pump for a 325i? What year, sir? Hmm, do you happen to know the exact day it was made? Aha. Finally, would that be morning or afternoon...?
Such insight in maths, psychology and economics. A veritable rhinosense man...
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Who writes "it's" as a possessive in an article summary.
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
I'm not shy or unfit and fairly decent at talking to girls anywhere. My not so vast experience with online dating has shown that women tend to behave more picky online than IRL. First there's a ton of more guys, so they're constantly sifting thru guys trying to impress them in their inbox. Most of these girls state all they want is a "nice funny guy". No shit sweetheart. The guys typically browse these sites for an hour or so, perusing the photos and reading the profiles of girls they find attractive in photos. No denying a lot of these guys are unrealistic in their expectations. What I did find, is that the average girls, tend to behave like they're quite hot, perhaps it's their first taste of this much attention and the ability to comfortably ignore a man's intentions. I find it hard to believe they would behave the same if a guy said the exact same thing approaching them in a bar, library.. anyplace. Assuming the guy actually goes up and talks to the girl IRL. Most of my friends just gawk and comment to each other about a new girl they find attractive instead of going and telling her. I prefer the unpretentiousness of meeting in real life. Perhaps there are nice girls out there online, I don't have the energy to craft a witty opener for the 20 girls I see online or the audacity to send them the same message. I rather have an honest profile up and keep my energies focused on socializing IRL and meeting single girls there. It makes the process easier on my time and heart.
Most times, it seems so capricious why anyone (ok, why any man) gets rejected. Stephen Hawking doesn't understand it. Everything sounds great online, you correspond for weeks, and then in the first face to face meeting she kills the relationship. She won't say why. Maybe she can't, if the real reason is something biological. He didn't smell different or musky enough. Or he's not tall enough. Or she's no gold digger, not consciously, yet the car he pulled up in was too cheap, small, and old. Or she's testing him with mind games, wants to see if he can figure out when no means no, and when no doesn't really mean no, maybe looking for persistence from him, seeing in that an indication that he is serious. What does "let's just be friends" really mean? Or despite professing a desire for a smart man, she didn't really mean that, and actually wants the big dumb infatuated ox who is easy for her to manipulate and mentally dominate.
Really baffling is seeing what some women choose. She rejects a bunch of great guys and ends up going with a total cad, the most shallow, superficial, lying, hypocritical loser and fool available, the kind of guy who abuses women and cheats even as he preaches about morality. You know, guys like Newt Gingrich except without the wealth and power. Well, maybe he has cute interns working for him as well as money, power, and fame. Maybe it's because she's selling herself short, doesn't believe she deserves better. Sometimes she comes to her senses, and can't understand herself why she ever dated or married a guy like that.
I also wonder if the larger climate makes dating even harder. There are too many people in the world. It's too hard to raise children and maintain the high standard of living people have grown to like. Women are more independent than ever, don't need any man. And employers subtly pressure women not to have children, as that would of course take them away from work. Queen Victoria found the biology of it all icky and disgusting. Didn't like the "horror" of breastfeeding. Maybe she was merely ahead of her time? What's with calling sex "the nasty"?
The only way I've ever been able to make much sense of it all is through a biological view. We're even more enslaved to our hormones than we realize. Men's lot is to ask and ask and ask, and be rejected almost every time but not quite, and the reason why it's like that is the biological fact that the effort of producing offspring falls almost entirely on women.
Intellectual Property is a monopolistic, selfish, and defective concept. It is "tyranny over the mind of man"
Not really. Are woman allowed on slashdot?
Hello Cruel World
Not to pick up, but to find women I know (especially from my college days) and to see how they describe themselves. It's very entertaining reading; best filed under "Fiction."
I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
...but not just in the original meaning.
We're ALL trained to find a mate of ultimate attractiveness/power. All the boys lust after the hot girls in high school, and all the girls like the adventurous/athletic/popular guys (all is an overstatement, but you get the idea). Somewhere in their 20's MOST girls re-arrange their expectations to marry someone who is good to them. The trick is being the first nice guy to come along after those expectations have been re-arranged. So, nice guys DO finish last... and when they finish that's one more girl off the market.
This creates the illusion that girls are not interested in nice guys, as they may date 20 assholes and one or two nice guys, but it's the one or two nice guys that they marry (and don't divorce a couple years later.... there are girls who marry the assholes and then become the single-divorced-30's women with baggage.)
That said, guys can be their own problem: There is NO shortage of women out there who would be more than happy to be with you. You probably just don't think they're attractive enough, so your own expectations are 50% of the problem.
You can't expect the girl who exercises, eats right, and puts resources into looking attractive to be interested in you if you're not doing the same things. So if you're not peak attractiveness, and you're not revamping your diet and popping in the P90X to bring up your physical appearance, time to dial down your own expectations to "normal looking people".
(As a handy side effect, getting rid of your rampant desire to associate with attractive women will also make you less creepy to attractive women.)
paintball
I saw this joke from a stand up comic, who was quoting one of those vapid women's magazines.
Top 3 things a women wants as polled by X women's magazine:
3) Money
2) Good Looks
1) Sense of Humor (to which the comic arches an eyebrow and shakes head)
I'm pretty sure if I am good looking and have lots of money, she'll laugh at any damn joke I tell her.
The other thing is hearing from girls that have just dated "assholes".
If you want to stop dating assholes. Then stop dating assholes! Seriously!
It sets them up for rejection. Nobody likes rejection, and women have generally been conditioned that they don't have to take the risk of it in the start of a relationship. They wait for men to contact them so they can do the rejecting.
Hence very, very few do it.
..is a sore excuse. Man up, it's not the girl's fault she's not attracted to you. She's not being picky, she's getting what she wants in her life. If you'd stop being such a wuss, you'd realize that and go improve yourself instead of trying to look like a victim.
Girls want a nice guy, but they want a strong guy even more. That's why a lot of girls end up with dickheads -- not because they are mean, but because they are strong. You can be a nice guy and still be strong. You can still hold doors for her. You just can't let her walk all over you, dummy!
Check out "The Game" by Neil Strauss (http://www.amazon.com/Game-Penetrating-Secret-Society-Artists/dp/0060554738). Don't use it as your bible, just use it as an opportunity to understand what works with women and why. Read the whole story, too, because he learns some important life lessons in the end. Also, get on David DeAngelo's mailing list. You will learn a lot, and you'll apply it in your own way. You'll be successful because you improved yourself, not because "girls stopped being so picky and unrealistic." There are plenty of others with a lot of insight on this subject, these two are just the ones who I learned the most from.
That WAS part of the original, all from the same guy. A more complete archive of his legendary cybertrolling can be found here: http://people.ambrosiasw.com/~andrew/funny/bloodcyber.html
It includes the "wizard hat" one, the kama sutra one, and many others. I have re-read it hundreds of times over the last ten years and still laugh uncontrollably at scenes like this:
This one actually reveals the fiction behind the scenes -- I find it difficult to believe she would stay in character, acknowledge what he was doing, and use proper punctuation even as he was wrecking the scene; she would have just left the conversation. But even if the whole thing is a work of fiction, it's the funniest damn story I have ever read in my life.
From my experience 90% of the girls on these sites that are over 30, things have changed, and have realized that there is no such thing as Prince Charming and its time to settle for someone who treats them well and isn't going to leave, is because they dated/married "Prince Charming" had a few kids, he/she left one another, and is looking for someone to pick up the pieces.
I have nothing against kids, even those that are not mine, however dealing with the douchebag "Prince Charming" and Co. forever now is not high on my life lists of things to do. Also when women say things like "my kids are everything to me", or "my entire life is devoted to my kids", or "my kids come first in everything, so deal", it just tells me you have no space or inclination for me, and that I am to look elsewhere. I get it. Kids are a big deal. I will have assumed a bit of maternal instinct already, don't rub it in my face.
Also Men have been called shallow in the past, but they got nothing on women online. True I have no doubt they are bombarded by requests from so many men, who most of them are pretending or lying about half the stuff they say just to get an "audience". However I have seen women posting specifications, or need not apply, like dark hair, 6+ feet tall, earn X amount of money, etc... Anyway I find it pretty hard to take most of the girls seriously online, I mean why even bother.
Most people try online dating because they have exhausted the pool of potential partners in their work/social circles and prefer the online environment over forced social situations like bars.
I've done the online dating thing, and help some friends do the online dating thing, so here's some thoughts/advice:
Most profiles on the major websites are in fact real profiles of women who would like to date. The ones that are spam are also pretty easy to detect.
Most women don't care about salary. They DO care about drive. So if you make poop for cash because you're an under-compensated social worker, no problem. If you make poop for cash because your life plan is "bartender", that might be an issue.
Approach is key. Men on online dating sites tend to be indiscriminate, sending lots of messages to lots of women. This means women tend to get lots of messages from lots of men - but lots of poor, unspecific messages. For success, less is more. Pick a FEW profiles of people you find interesting, and take the time to write them something specific and interesting. Understand that 2/3rds of the time, you're not going to get a reply even from real people for various reasons.... they never read your message because there's too much crap in their inbox from all the indiscriminate men, they procrastinate, or something about you just isn't interesting to them.
There are other tricks. Start having your friends take pictures of you when you're out doing whatever, and post pics of you doing things to your profile. Talk about what you do and why you like doing it... or what you plan to do and what you're doing to get there.
Overall, you want to come across as looking for the right person, not just looking for any person.
And, certainly, if you approach dating with the same jaded attitude you display here (women are just after money!) you're not going to have much success. Approach dating as a fun activity in-and-of-itself and you might also find someone you really like on accident.
paintball
Not really. Online dating means a few women that photograph well are bombarded by the vast majority of men.
So let's say the top 10% of women by photographic attractiveness get 90% of the attention.
For men, the solution to this problem is simple:
Contact women in the 11th to 15th percentile.
paintball
Monetized, containerized, packaged and sold...Online dating is by design broken. Picky and unrealistic symptomatic of a system that works to keep you in network, picture promised and picking your pocket.
Get out, risk yourself and put life back in living
I was "picky and unrealistic" LONG before online dating.
From the way you say "When I walk into a bar..." it sounds like you're still doing it, and still unattached. No real surprise there. How can you possibly know that the woman on the end works on the linux kernel, or the third one from the right can recite every Monty Python sketch from memory, or the one next to her is an astronaut? I've known some brilliant, wonderful people who looked like... well, like I do... and some stunningly attractive people who were complete morons. That is enough to convince me that conclusions about a person based on appearance alone are worthless.
Unless, of course, you're as shallow as those attractive morons and all you care about is external beauty.
State in your profile that you prefer to meet people sooner rather than later.
People of similar persuasion will be attracted to this, and people who want to talk for weeks on end before meeting will not.
Online dating is all about filtering. So filter!
paintball
I tried online dating.
I met and dated a beautiful intelligent girl.
A few months into the relationship I met her very angry husband.
If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur. --Red Adair
As someone well over 30, I think I'm somewhat qualified to comment here.
The "nice guys finish last" thing is alive and well, and there's nothing about it that's a "cop out". Where you're correct is that as we get older, our priorities change (largely due to having more life experiences).
Most men AND women I know are working on "climbing that ladder" throughout their 20's and into their early 30's. They score that first "career job" after finishing school (or dropping out with it partially finished, as the case may be?) and start obtaining things such as their first new car or truck, perhaps a home of their own (or even stepping up from a small apartment unit to a rental house or townhouse apartment counts).... and sooner or later, they're considering obtaining a life partner too. Still working from the angle of "I've got nowhere to go from here but up!", they're concerned with their appearance to their peers, and with selecting a partner who has the best possible combination of looks, intelligence and personality/character.
When you're still in THAT stage of life? Yeah, dating is very competitive and you really can finish last in that area if you bring integrity and "character" to the table, but not much else. Without money and/or looks, you're short a couple of key items that help "sell" yourself vs. your competition.
Where things change, IMO, is somewhere between the mid 30's and 40's. By that time, many people already TRIED a marriage that ended badly. Others just matured a bit (or even simply let life wear them down a bit, to where they quit trying to impress -- and resigned themselves to just getting up each day, going to their 9-5 job, and keeping busy with whatever chores and tasks life demanded of them). All of a sudden, they're no longer focusing time and energy on searching for someone. They're just being themselves, and are actually in a better position to stumble across someone else like-minded who likes them for them.
BTW, I really think wealth serves as a huge barrier to one's self-awareness. Why do so many Hollywood celebs and pro sports athletes have relationship problems? Why do big-shot CEOs constantly get involved in sex scandals? When you have enough money, you're able to spend your way out of looking in the mirror and getting a true sense of who you are. Someone's always happy to stroke your ego, hoping for some sort of payoff. Doctors and surgeons will do all sorts of procedures to you, to make sure you physically appear younger than you really are. You can afford all the best/trendiest clothing items, vehicles, and everything else that distracts people from seeing who YOU are when they look at you. Every time you screw up in public, you can pay off someone to bail you back out of the situation.
I got to interview a couple of the authors on this study -- Eli Finkel and Paul Eastwick -- for my book, Brain Trust. In fact, online dating is only a piece of their exploration into romantic interactions. They've got an awesome paper out titled Smooth Operating: A Structural Analysis of Social Behavior in which they pick apart the words, actions and mindsets that create "smooth" initial romantic encounters. (One finding: you shouldn't be too passive or too aggressive in the way you steer conversation topics.) They also looked at speed dating , finding among other things that people who rate everyone highly are themselves rated low (liking everyone comes off as desperate), and that the sex that sits is more liked than the sex that rotates. Ack! If only I'd known this in middle school!
GeekDad, TED speaker, Wipeout loser, author of Brain Trust
I met my partner on okcupid, after pretty much writing off the site as getting me nowhere. (Oddly enough, I could search and find a good 6-12 women on there in my age range, who lived near me, who I thought were interesting and appeared to share several common interests -- but every time I contacted one of them, I got no response.) I left my own ad up there though, basically forgetting about it, until I got one of those email notices that someone had "woo'd" me (kind of like a Facebook "poke"). I logged in to see what that was all about, and discovered we had a *lot* in common, but she lived in a different state. One thing led to another and here we are, still together after 3 years.
Even though before meeting her, my online dating experiences were more "bad" than "good"? I don't really have a problem with the concept at all. They've evolved from being perceived as "weird" or something you don't admit to using to a mainstream way to meet new people. I think you have to go into the online dating thing without any big expectations though. A lot of women tend to use them in sort of a "kid in a candy store" way, checking out all the photos and looking for only the ones they find really cute or sexy, and stroking their own egos as their mailboxes fill up with guys trying to contact them.
One of my good female friends amazed me when she showed me how much mail she'd get in just 1-2 days of posting a new ad on any of the dating sites... and that happened regardless of what she actually said in her description. A photo was all it took. In that environment, it's probably kind of difficult to keep a firm grip on reality, realizing 90% of those guys contacting you are just trying to hook up for a night, and you're not really THAT desirable to the general public....
"I can hardly imagine two places more unsuitable for meeting potential love interests and founding long-term relationships than the internet and the disco club. Yet, curiously, these are the exact places in which courtship nowadays is most likely to be practiced." - Phillip Richdale
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
I didn't know Scott Pilgrim read slashdot.
But seriously, there are therapists out there, they can find one, choose not to live like that anymore, cut people out of their life that are part of the old life so as not continue to create the same situations and make the same bad decisions over and over again.
What can you do? Its not about being Prince Charming, most of the time its about not being an ass. If you can do that, and it still doesn't work out, its not you.
After thinking a lot about it, the only reason a man should marry after 30 is to not be alone when you die. Truthfully, it is the only reason to marry. But everyone seems to have the need to make that mistaken first marriage. After the divorce is over, one must truly 'man up' and look at real priorities. Why would you want to be an enabler and emotional sponge for some woman? If you avoid that, you keep the vast majority of your earnings and you get more sex on the open market.
You can execute on the marriage plan when you have 2 years to live, if you like. The women won't know the difference.
HBI's Law: Frequency of calling others Nazis is directly correlated with the likelihood of the accuser being Communist.
Hah! So true.
On a serious note, I know several people in real life that have used eHarmony before. Most of them ended up getting married after their first or second date using the service and shortly after a year or so of meeting each other for the first time. That tells me two things. First, eHarmony has got the system down to a science with regards to their list of questions they ask members to take. Second, (and most important) members of eHarmony are already taking a serious and mature attitude with regards to finding a mate for life. When two people make it a serious effort to make a relationship work, I'm not surprised that eHarmony has what I think is the best success rate of them all.
eHarmony matches conservative mariage minded people with other conservative mariage minded people. The more extreme and fringe types are rejected. They famously reject gays but, really, they only work with simple cogs. That might actually be the key: Super "normal" people can find each other more quickly and with less drama if the "freeks" are excluded.
If you're a nice guy, then having a girl who you can raise a family with is exactly what you want.
Or, if you're a nice guy who doesn't want to wait for the attractive girls to get past liking assholes, you could date women lower on the attractiveness scale. Plenty of perfectly nice girls of all ages not blessed with superb attractiveness who will date nice guys.
But if what you REALLY want is to have relationships with young attractive women, but such women are not paying attention to you, then you're really an just asshole who isn't very good at it.
paintball
Mod parent up.
obligatory
I have an alternative to that logic.
The longer you wait, the more you've finished your "self development."
Young people go through a lot of stages in life. Their interests change. Their personalities often change. Their lifestyles change.
With that, the type of mate you may find ideal at a young age (especially with hormones involved), is not necessarily the mate you'd be happy with later in life. As life goes on, you move apart, and eventually, divorce.
At least when meeting somebody a bit later in life, there's a decent chance that he/she has got his/her sh*t together, has some idea of plans for the future and has developed a long-term identity.
You are really out of touch with the modern world. This was probably true ten years ago but certainly not today. Don't get me wrong, women are women but they are living and socializing online just like everyone else now. They most definitely use online dating sites like facebook and yes even things like match.com. It's really no different than a club nowdays.
All the guys want to fuck the women with no strings attached. The women are trying to catch the guys. The difference isn't the women, the difference is the guys. Guys online are more confident in ways that turn women off. Generally they are crass.
Most single women will have a one night stand with you, hell most women who aren't single will if you handle it right. But most of them don't tell themselves that. What will get you laid is being confident, building sexual tension WITHOUT being crass. Don't make false promises. Even if they won't admit it most women want you to objectify them sexually and if you don't they will never see YOU as a sexual object in turn (this is what people call chemistry). Chemistry is not something that just is or isn't, it is a potion that is brewed. That is where nice guys go wrong. Inside every woman there is a hot naughty little nympho who wants to engage in the most sensual and depraved sexual acts. She might not know its there but she wants it to come out at least as much as you do. But you have to let her know that it is okay to do so without making her feel like a piece of meat.
That is confusing to a man. We have trouble seeing the difference. Women are complex creatures and they can want more than one thing at a time. Most women want to diet and be healthy but you probably won't have much trouble convincing them to indulge in a sliver of french chocolate silk cream pie. Women want to indulge just as much as we do in guilty pleasures. Give that same woman a heavy and filling hamburger and in some moods she might find it to be an indulgence and in others she might feel its a nasty glob of fat. The bottom line is there are no 'techniques' or 'recipes' or 'formulas'. Whether you are nice guy or an asshole there is a bad boy already hiding inside and lettering her see that is the secret to waking her naughty side. Then she won't be deciding whether you are worth giving pleasure, she will be deciding whether or not she deserves to reward herself with chocolate cream pie...
Best of all, no lies, no dishonesty, and you aren't being anything other than yourself. You aren't seeking to be a taker anymore nor are you letting someone take from you. Instead you share an experience for what it is in an honest and healthy way.
Read it and take it on its own merit.
If "nice" means approaching women who you are interested in romantically as "friends" so that you can get an in, and then after a year of being "friends" you make a tearful confession that you've fallen for her and you just can't take being "friends" anymore, then yes, you are right, that will not work very well.
People who do that think of themselves as nice guys, but what they really are is CREEPY.
Related creepy behavior: Asking out someone you've spent a lot of time around but barely talked to before.
paintball
Tried eHarmony, total failure. Gave up, worked on getting a life instead, met someone before very long.
Married now.
--PM
Slashdot for opinions about dating sites? I think we're all clueless male nerds here (and I'm including myself).
I'm no advocate for some of the crap you have to deal with from women, but how about working on yourself? Even if you're not "handsome," if you're in good-great shape women are still going to be attracted to you. Do have have a good career? From my experience, the balance in the dating game starts to flip to guys after around 25-30 years of age if you've positioned yourself in a good place in life.. Having a pretty face isn't all that it takes to get an attractive woman (I'm looking at you Seal). Work on yourself first, and stop complaining about how Brad Pitt doesn't have to work for pussy.
I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
The majority of human beings have managed just fine without dating sites, that means the norm is not to use them, therefor if you use them, you are outside the norm.
And since you are outside the norm, you should probably examine why. Not being able to meet someone during normal social activities is outside the norm. Dare I take a guess that you are not someone who is socially active? That is not within the norm, knowing this and accepting therefor that it limits your choice and who you should look for will make you much more successful.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Most fat chicks are gonna mark their body type as average even if they are 60 tons overweight. Im not picky but how can I fall for someone that doesn't care about themselves? I got off my ass 7 years and lost 80lbs and kept it off. Being picky is fine becuads chicks tend to love me more than I love them when we meet on the internet. All of them were less than what I had expected based on what they told me about themselves. The trick to meeting people in real life its too just talk to people. Ask 10 girls out, 1 will say yes. Rejection can be fun if you turn it into a joke.
This may be a little late in this discussion, but I would say that perseverance pays off in the long run. It's like posting a resume on a job site and subsequent job interviews with much, much more emotion involved. It requires a lot of resilience, and you should be prepared for rejection. But most of all, you should have a clear picture of what you want in a realistic relationship, or what you would tolerate. It may even include someone who enjoys Star Trek even more than you do, who brings along more fantasy and scifi books than you could read in a lifetime and really does want to have a digital video recorder so we won't miss out on QI and Top Gear. The moment I'm writing this, she's explaining to her father what the The Hitch-Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy is all about. I am wearing my wedding ring (with her name in Morse code on it) with pride :-)
Omnis basim vester nobis compete sunt.
If you can't be,
with the one you love,
love the one you're with.
And yet Cracked.com still supports online dating despite the worst of dating sites spamming their comment section, and continue to dispel the myth that online dating is for desperate losers.