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Aderall Or Nothing: Anatomy of the Great Amphetamine Drought
pigrabbitbear writes "To prevent hoarding of materials and their potential for theft and illicit use, the Drug Enforcement Agency sets quotas for the chemical precursors to drugs like Adderall. The DEA projects the need for amphetamine salts, then produces and distributes the materials to pharmaceutical companies so that they can produce their drugs. But with the number of prescriptions for Adderall jumping 13 percent in the past year, pharmaceutical companies claim that the quotas are no longer sufficient for supplying Americans with their Adderall. The DEA contends that their quotas do, in fact, meet demands, and that any shortages arise from pharmaceutical companies selectively producing only certain, typically name-brand and more expensive versions of ADHD medications."
Is there no enterprise you can't utterly fuck up?
Perhaps we should have this dept dissolved.
At the very least, can we start a movement to find constitutional justification for such a Federal Agency?
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
Considering how those that are actually being prescribed Aderall and need it to function are the most likely to be affected by this, I do.
It would not be wise for the DEA to further piss off potentially millions of amphetamine addicts.
Anyone notice that the shortage of adderall and the rise of the TEA party happened about the same time?
Coincidence? I think not ....
that corporations love to be "selective" to squeeze out what they can. I don't necessarily agree with the govt rational for rationing but at least someone in the DEA does have some understanding of business.
I can also hope that maybe ....just maybe some kids will just be kids for a bit longer because of this....
Can officially label America the "Home of the drugged" yet?
You are taking the wrong pills. Please only take the pills we want you to.
I am Slashdot. Are you Slashdot as well?
15 TONS of crank turned up last week in what may be the largest bust ever.
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/02/09/mexican-army-finds-15-tons-pure-methamphetamine/
As a side note, Adderall is HIGHLY over-prescribed. Most kids are hyper and have short attention spans - it's part of being a kid.
FWIW, I was a pharmacy tech while working through HS and college, and the entire time, we never had such bad problems with backorders on any product (with the possible exception of when albuterol inhalers were required to switch to CFA free, another massive screwup).
so that we can track their killing sprees, but not let enough medication be produced for law abiding citizens. Smart move.
I doubt the DEA has a lab somewhere that's creating this material... or maybe they do...
When did the DEA get into the chemical production business?
Yes Francis, the world has gone crazy.
The DEA imposes an artificial scarcity on a chemical, and the drug companies crank that though their models to maximize profit. What's the surprise here? That the DEA doesn't have any non-partisan economists on staff?
Yes, the total amount of the raw material might be enough for the demand, but people have been making fortunes profiting from local shortages since, like, forever.
All ideas^H^H^H^H^Hprocesses in this post are Patent Pending. (as well as the process of patenting all postings)
It looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue.
I am officially gone from
Legalize and Tax. No more war on drugs.
I'm 48, and I don't use any recreational drugs (including alcohol). But I've long held that legalizing and simply taxing all drugs would eliminate far more problems than drugs currently cause.
Drug dealers? No need. Buy what you want at the local pharmacy. Made by real labs, with quality control standards. Warning label on the bottle: "This drug may kill you. Use at your own risk." No illegal pipeline if what you can buy at CVS is cheaper and better quality than from the guy on the street. How much of organized crime is based on the drug trade? From import to manufacturing to distribution to people stealing crap to feed their habit?
Dirty Needles? Nope. Buy those when you are picking up your consumer grade heroin. There go HIV and HEP-C transmission rates.
Drug addicts? Use the previously mentioned tax money on education and rehab programs. Even a hefty tax on the drugs would still leave them at a lower cost than street drugs.
Never happen. There are too many vested interests in keeping the "war on drugs" alive.
Every single person I've met (which are dozens) that regularly takes Adderall clearly does not "need" it to function, but they may think they do and exhibit classic signs of addiction.
However, medicines like this fit into most medical/social science methodology in that, if someone starts taking Adderall, of course they are more productive and may even feel better (e.g. euphoria) etc, so measuring those effects usually produces positive results.
Interceding variables like having doctors prescribing amphetamine salts like candy seem to be ignored in these methodologies.
How much suffering is the DEA willing to inflict for the, pardon the metaphor, pipe dream of a drug-free America?
You can't swing a dead cat without hearing about under-medicating pain and how that one of the primary drivers of that is physician fear of a DEA investigation or worse, losing their license to prescribe.
Now it's this -- and while I'm sure there's some pharma holdback for brand-name drugs, that wouldn't matter if the DEA wasn't so restrictive of the chemistry.
So now we have another group of people at minimum inconvenienced at at maximum with negative health consequences because of the relentless pursuit of an unobtainable moral goal.
Thanks, DEA.
We need to legalize ALL currently illegal recreational drugs in the USA, but put them under tight regs. In addition, we need to allow ZERO IMPORTS OR EXPORTS on these. Likewise, require that all of the precursors be manufactured here as well. Why? Because it destroys gangs and drug lords the world over. Once this is done, then illegal activities will stop. As to the drug use, it will remain. However, it will not be pushed.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
The dea and war on drugs has only been around for about 90 years and has caused nothing but problems. by your own reasoning we should go back to a state where the governents don't try to dictate what we should and should not consume. Seems reasonable to me, I would like ot have juridstiction over my own body! I mean seriously, next they'll be telling us we can't consume milk if it doesn't come from a farm that homogenizes the milk.
Command economies fail because they cannot respond effectively to unpredicted shifts in demand. You'd think people would know this by now ever since the command economy of the Soviet Union publicly imploded.
Wow, tough call who to side with on this one - The pharmaceutical companies that would rather let women miscarry and kids die of leukemia than leave any money on the table; Or the government agency that would rather watch cancer victims die in agony and puking their guts out than let them toke up.
Can we just line both sides up against the wall, as a lesson to whomever we allow to replace them?
I find it humorous when the "government" does planning and tells us what is going on. It sounds like a weird form of centralized planning from the Soviet Union. Soon the FDA will regulate toilet paper! lol.
We are really in a fucked up country!
In general, they were labeled "troublemakers", "bullies", "class clowns" or any other of a number of meaningless epithets that did nothing to help them get ahead and allowed them to just play their role in society before becoming some blue-collar laborer or small time criminal.
Yes, everyone you've met on Adderall (that you know of...) are addicted to it. Everyone I've met on Adderall can fly like Superman. What does anecdotal evidence (especially that which is uncited) have to do with it again?
Before Adderall, there was straight amphetamine. Adderall is a combination of various amphetamine salts that has been shown to work better for the treatment of ADD. There was (and is) also Ritalin (Methylphenidate)
{ See the movie Up! if you're confused. }
It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
Truly spoken like someone who doesn't have a medical need for it. How very civic minded of you being so willing to let other people suffer so that you don't have to worry that people you don't know might take a drug they don't need.
I'm guessing you're also OK with people not being properly treated for their debillitating cluster headaches or chronic pain as well (as long as you don't have those conditions, naturally).
Yes, they just didn't function. Kinda like before antibiotics, people with serious infections just died.
Sure, there are abuses, and it's over-prescribed. However, there are people who actually do need it to function well and they should be able to get it. The DEA needs to butt out of medical practice.
I mean seriously, next they'll be telling us we can't consume milk if it doesn't come from a farm that homogenizes the milk.
They do that too in some places.
. . . and back into its children, where it belongs!
Are other countries in the world meth-ing up their children? Or is this like a US only type thing?
Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
The next few generations will be a breed of zombies!
-- By all means let's be open-minded, but not so open-minded that our brains drop out.
Your personal anecdotes may be well founded. However, I have a personal anecdote too. I have a child who is on Addreall and I can attest to how much better it makes him function. Since the last 2 years of taking it, he has made leaps and bounds in his ability to speak and articulate thoughts. Without the drug, he reverts to extremely erratic behavior, his speech suffers, and sometimes he unintentionally hurts himself. Recently, the Adderall shortage caught us off guard once, and we had a fairly wild weekend with him (not the only time actually). So yes, he is a clear case of where the drug works as intended.
That people abuse this drug upsets me to no end. I'm reminded of it every time I have to go through the prescription refill process.
For the record, I'm not one of the parents that would dose up their kid just to get him to sit still and be quiet. Far from it. I'm certain without it, he'd be held back or in a special needs school.
Hecubas
That's the worst thing to me - we're depriving people who need it to prevent some folks from using it for fun/addiction/whatever. Never a worse reason to do that.
Considering how those that are actually being prescribed Aderall and need it to function are the most likely to be affected by this, I do.
I read somewhere that only about two in an hundred need ADHD drugs to function (which is still arguably a significant number in a 300m population) but that it's way overprescribed, to upwards of one in five in US schools. (The report did not say how this statistic translates to the general population, so it could be misleading.)
So, just spitballing here, but maybe the shortage could be at least partially alleviated by prescribing the drugs less casually. For instance, I give you personal permission to take the drugs the school prescribed for my kid, which I declined. (The school looked at her and said she's ADHD and recommended drugs. The doctor agreed to prescribe with no testing, which made me suspicious. I had her formally tested, and she's not ADHD. She's severely dyslexic. I'd like to personally thank the school system and medical community for screwing that up.)
Note, I am not one of those loonies who believe the drugs are unnecessary. You say you need them to function, and I believe you. But clearly at least some are taking them who don't need to, and that has to negatively affect demand to some degree.
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
Here is the link for you. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/feb/13/feds-shut-down-amish-farm-selling-fresh-milk/
Homogenize? You don't want creme on the top of your milk?
I think you might mean pasteurize?
Yeah, haven't we seen that when people are stupid or desperate they make poor decisions, and companies will be perfectly willing to step in and take advantage of those. Then after they have made those poor decision they are capable of making other people suffer the same consequences. That is why milk has to be pasteurized. This is what living in a society is all about.
Do you far less damage than most government sanctioned recreational drugs and many medically sanction treatments.
How about you don't tax it, or tax it proportionally to social and personal harm.
There's good evidence that all these "attention-deficit" drugs are only of real benefit for a few weeks, after which continued use only makes sense for avoiding the sometimes-serious withdrawal symptoms. In other words, while use of aphetamines for ADD appeared to make medical sense once upon a time, more recent research shows that they whole thing is a bit of a fraud being run for the profit of the drug companies, with no net contribution at all to public well-being, or student performance, or anything else beyond maintaining a large, profitable population of addicts. Sure if you stop taking it you feel worse for a while, and if you start again you feel better. That's what addiction is.
If you're an adult taking them yourself, make your own judgment. If you're cooperating with a school in dosing your kid though, seriously consider setting a time and place for the kid to go cold turkey. You're doing nobody a real favor by keeping your kid on speed.
"with their freedom lost all virtue lose" - Milton
This is the first year they are "rationed" with a lottery, because they having been reaching the BLM quotas the last two years. But no one seems to be able to get one. The scalper community went after them.
I didn't function, couldn't hold down a job, or manage my affairs. What did people do before anti depressants? What did they do for other mental illnesses and learning disabilities? Oh, sure, they lived, but it doesn't mean you can't use it. So I should just buck up because of some stigma people like you create? I deserve better.
Well, I assume you're not narcoleptic, otherwise you would just say that. So I will share a personal anecdote about medical amphetamines.
One time I took two Ritalin tablets an hour before entering a maths competition, came somewhere in the top 1% of entrants, whereas I had never come in the top 5% before. Turns out amphetamines help you think quick and focus, same reason so many top level mathematicians use amphetamines. If it helps you do things better, by all means take it, to be smart and focused is a good thing and a reasonably large percentage of the population's intellectual performance can be very much enhanced by this chemical.
But you don't need it to function. If you think that, then you're an addict and you should lay off it for a while.
When Argumentum ad Hominem falls short, try Argumentum ad Matrem
I don't know about Adderall (I'm on a Ritalin-based med), but I do know that after being diagnosed with ADHD well into my 30s, and being put on mediation for it for the first time, it makes anywhere from a minor to a major difference on any given day. There are definitely other factors that play into it, but on the occasions when I've had to go stretches without my meds (usually when I have a sinus infection and need to take decongestents - pseudoephedrine and amphetamines are a great way to give yourself bad tachycardia...) I can often feel the difference after a couple of days. I'm not a huge fan of the whole "every kid who acts up must have ADHD" bandwagon because I think that at least 50% of those are probably just kids being kids, but for those people who truely do need meds to help them deal with messed up brain chemistry it really makes a difference.
And as to the question of "need", I'm sure we all could get by without taking meds for ADHD, the same way we don't "need" vaccines, antibiotics, painkillers, electricity, indoor plumbing, etc. There are plenty of societies that get along without all of those things, but I doubt you would want to live without them if you had the option of living with them instead. Are there people who abuse ADHD meds? Of course. But that doesn't mean that everyone who uses them abuses them...
For some reason this reminds me of Breaking Bad. The locals are having a hard time buying precursors at pharmacies because the regs have made them scarce, but in walks "Heisenberg" and he starts cranking out the stuff by the barrel using industrial equipment.
When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
I don't think anyone disagrees that there are cases where it actually does help and is needed. What people are saying is that its use is too widespread and most of the children on it just need parenting and discipline. Your child may well be one of those who do actually need it. The question is how do you discern one group from the other and prevent those who don't need it from being placed on it.
I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
In my granddaughter's high school about 10% of the students are on some kind of ADHD or ADD drug. Many don't take it because they don't like the side effects. The result is that there is a ton of this stuff freely available to students who shouldn't have it. As she describes it, there are students doing lines of Adderoll in the cafeteria. Teachers watch this and do nothing. I am normally fairly liberal about legalizing drugs for adults, but this creeps me out.
Sorry, but gray text on gray background is making my eyes bleed.
I agree, however, there are those of us with genetic conditions which have comorbid ADHD, who actually need the medication to function. I can speak from experience to the efficacy of the combination of salts in this medication... Amphetamine sulfate, on its own, does not quite work the same as the d-amphetamine and l-amphetamine mixture found in this particular medication. It truly is a pain in the ass to have to call a dozen pharmacies to find one with the stock to fill your script.
The abuse potential is obvious, but that is why we are supposed to have qualified doctor's prescribing the medication. Psychiatrists are a whole lot more conservative about this medication than GPs with drugs like oxycodone. There is no true benchmark for pain, and the prescriptions for opiate-based medications are given out for everything from persistent cough to mild-back pain. In my mind, these are far more of a plague than amphetamine-based medications.
I have tried methylphenidate and dexmethylphenidate, but have had some wild gastrointestinal side-effects. I would love to use the non-stimulant (SSRI/SNRI) ADHD medications that have recently come out, but the pricing is still too steep. Until those patents expire, I will have to keep taking the Adderall mixture.
The only reason this is a so-called disease is because Big Pharma makes tons of money on trying to medicate the children of America. What if this was not a "disability" but actually just the next step in evolution of human beings? What if there is actually nothing wrong at all? I believe ADHD isn't a malady.
so the pharm companies are wanting to push out as much pills as possible so that they can still make a profit off this wonder drug. The generics/alternatives to adderall suck and have much worse symptoms than the namebrand drug.
The quota the DEA set is within the limits. The only abuse of this drug is in college campuses and has been since it came out. Of course, you can develop a habit for this pill because it can make you dependent on it rather than letting your brain produce the hormones you otherwise normally would produce...
But again, the companies are deliberately limiting supply to drive up costs and if the DEA gives in (via political pressure), then the pharm companies will still charge a large amount for the drug as the patent on it will get extended for another 10 years.
I agree. And since that's all the DEA does, it should be put down.
People should not fear their government. Governments should fear their people.
And of course it never occurred to you that there are other solutions that thousands of parents are having success with? Ohhh I get it, stuffing your child full of mind altering drugs is easier on YOU!!
I don't think anyone disagrees that there are cases where it actually does help and is needed. What people are saying is that its use is too widespread and most of the children on it just need parenting and discipline. Your child may well be one of those who do actually need it. The question is how do you discern one group from the other and prevent those who don't need it from being placed on it.
What you DON'T do is give that decision to a governmental agency that has a narrow focus on just saying no. While there are legitimate social and medical arguments for and against amphetamine (and other drug) use, letting the DEA essentially control it is a very, very bad way to go.
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
What did people do before Adderall then, simply not function? It's only been around for around 30 years.
My child is not ADHD, but was diagnosed as such by the school system (long story) and as a result I did quite a bit of research and talked to parents of kids and to adults who had the affliction.
Without drugs there are coping skills but how they work depends on how bad your case is. For instance, a co-worker who has a mild case, has a hard time communicating because he jumps around on topics and gets buried in sub-clauses. His coping skill is to put a finger down on the desk each time he shifts topics to remind himself to go back and complete the original topic.
As to how severe cases dealt with it without drugs, they'd often have a hard time getting good grades or staying employed despite high intelligence, feel ostracized and unappreciated, diagnosed as "discipline problems" and find themselves clients of the justice system. For those who really need the drugs, they really need the drugs.
There are a few careers (art, music, broadcasting) where ADHD isn't a deficit and may actually be an advantage. But it's not a safe bet.
If you need an example that may be easier to understand, for people who really need antidepressants (which are somewhat overprescribed also, in my opinion) really NEED them, because without the drugs, clinically depressed people really can not function. (Even *with* the drugs they may never be normal, but may at least be able to hold down a job.)
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
It's actually quite easy to discern those who need it from those who don't: you give it to them. If their symptoms go away they need it, else they don't and some other treatment is called for.
People should not fear their government. Governments should fear their people.
Only in the US are totally safe "drugs" illegal and use and possession are punishable by life in prison, but dangerous drugs are completely and totally legal.
I don't respond to AC's.
I have worked with them. This is an agency the American people would be better off without. Just fire the employees and delete the DEA. Problem solved.
Yeah, well, it's not that they need it to function DISCLAIMER (I am presently on a similar medication), it's that they need it to function in the highly structured, monotonous "farmer" style society that we find ourselves. If there was a way for many of these people (and many people with ADD do fine without meds) to make a living that didn't rely on organization, attention to detail, etc., then we wouldn't need the meds. I myself am trying to transition myself away from my concerta-requiring job and into a non-concerta-requiring job as we speak.
As far as addiction goes, what of it? People are addicted, physically addicted, to coffee, and other substances all the time. It's not the addiction but the psycho-physico-emotional harm that it might do that is the problem. No one worries that people with bipolar disorder are "addicted" to their meds.
From an epistemological standpoint, in science many times we make observations that contradict empirical results and as such must control for these variables.
This sounds a bit like those folks who believe "science" is a religion, and something is true because "science says so," regardless of the fact they do not understand the method applied.
What what the post/TFA about? I couldn't get my script filled and wasn't paying attention.
Silence is a state of mime.
If I have to jump through hoops to prove I'm not planning on using my decongestant to make Meth, I'm glad the drug companies have to deal with this garbage too.
When did the DEA get into the chemical production business?
If accurate, I would wager right about the time they made it illegal for anyone else to do so.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
Obooboo the Messiah! Your tax dollars at work!
But that said, you identify the issue I've pointed out in scientific studies -- that many parents dose up their kid to get them to be quiet and less annoying. And in methodologies for measuring progress, they measure behavior, parents' opinion on kids behavior, grades in school..which generally go up (you're on hardcore amphetamines all day, of course you get better grades!!)...but leave out issues that in teenage years/adulthood, it's really common for these kids to have lingering side effects and issues, and then truly be unable to function without Adderall since their brain chemistry has actually changed to accommodate the ever-increasing dosages of amphetamines.
As sad as that is, I think the DEA should have no business in this. But if they were going to have a business in something, over-prescribing children hardcore amphetamines should probably be the place they start, not some hippie smoking weed!
Careful. You are setting up a nice straw man fallacy. Want milk straight from the cow? "Down with the war on drugs!" That isn't a valid argument.
As to the topic, we've just forgotten the history here. These federal departments and regulations exist because there were serious problems to solve at the time. Milk needs to be consistently safe at the grocery. Kids shouldn't die from measles. We should be able to trust that toys sold to our youth won't give them lead poisoning. And so on...
If there was a way for many of these people (and many people with ADD do fine without meds) to make a living that didn't rely on organization, attention to detail, etc., then we wouldn't need the meds.
Aye, there's the rub. Unless you have someone doing the organizing for you somehow, the need persists. Even my full time artist friends need to ensure they have supplies, turn up to shows and openings, make sure they're not getting ripped off, etc. Often outside managers are involved, but then you have to keep and eye on them as well.
It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
Out of curiosity, what field are you entering instead? My daughter's pretty disattentionated, so it's always useful to hear a report from the trenches.
Space game using normal deck of cards: http://BattleCards.org
So one day he stopped taking his Lithium and started coming to parties and being social. By sophomore year, he had friends, and was doing a lot better than he was with his medicine for his "social anxiety." So it looks like he was one of the folks over-prescribed, and maybe he stopped being so passionate/etc when he was on Lithium, and his parents liked that when he was at home with them.
My mom was hooked on Xanax the last few years of her life, that she got from her doctor, who tried to "treat" her depression and social anxiety/etc. Instead, it made her happy to stay at home and watch TV and be antisocial. But since she was happier and insistent on taking more, the doctor saw good results, and kept prescribing her this medicine that just made her an artificially happy person with no desire for friends or fulfillment. But it made her a different person and I don't believe the net effects were positive.
Again, this is all anecdotal, but I've seen anecdotal evidence like this too often to ignore. And I don't have big money like pharmaceutical companies to fund a proper scientific study. If you'd like to pay for this, let me know! :)
You're mixing two entirely different stories. The War on Drugs, and the overprescription of psychiatric drugs.
The problem there is with the doctors, and I've actually encountered this problem myself. During my first year of college I stopped taking my adderall out of negligence (would forget to take it mostly). Then, on one occasion I decided to take it. I'm not sure what to call what I experienced, but I found myself shaking and rooted to my seat, unable to function the moment I tried to work. After that I swore never to take it again. Fast forward a few months and I've dropped out because, well stopping taking meds in your first year of college when you've been taking them since 5th grade is not the best idea. I go to see a psychologist because at that point I was a bit of a train wreck. One of the first things the psychologist insists is that I go back on the meds, ignoring my protests (she was claiming that the reaction I had was related to some outside factor, not the meds themselves). I would never sell them and because I was not in my parents' best graces so I had to take them, but if I was a rebellious teen looking for a quick buck I could easily see myself selling those pills. Doctors need to realize that these meds have serious side effects beyond hearing things/seeing things/thoughts of suicide/etc.
Fuck Beta
Most ADHD meds are scam, they only cause addiction and don't help.
LSD is real ADHD med that works. Other serotonin 5HT2A agonists make sense too.
There is NO mentall illnesses.
And letting the free market, i.e. the people who stand to gain financially from selling speed to kids, decide who needs it is surely the better idea, no? Seriously, the US are undertaking an experiment drugging their kids to fit them into the mold of perceived normality that is pretty much unprecedented on a historical scale these days. If anything, the DEA is at fault for not smacking down on the current prescription practices.
Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
In fact, it is just this flawed methodology that created the false idea in the minds of researchers that speed was actually helping these children. This false idea is what has led to the current massive overprescription and probable consequent harm to millions of patients.
The shortages are artificial and caused by its components being illegal to manufacture by anyone except the government.
It's not just a central planning problem, like having the Agriculture Department subsidizing ethanol production or the CDC guessing wrong about what kind of flu vaccine we need some years. It's mostly a political correctness problem, with the DEA trying to interfere with people using a popular type of drug (as a followon to their War on Cold Medicine that makes us have to use fake sudafed instead of the real stuff.)
What? You're one of those Republicans who thinks "Political Correctness" is a only _Liberal_ problem? Wrong...
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
Yes, they just didn't function. Kinda like before antibiotics, people with serious infections just died.
Sure, there are abuses, and it's over-prescribed. However, there are people who actually do need it to function well and they should be able to get it. The DEA needs to butt out of medical practice.
Citation please.
I went through school about 5 - 10 years before the age of ADD and ADHD. I'm sure if I was going through today they'd demand that I be on drugs. Probably largely due to the fact I was tested into the "gifted" program, but my parents opted out. Why? Because the "gifted" program was about more busy work than anything else in the lower grades and my parents figured it was better for me to get to go out and play more rather do more work. As a result I was board sometimes in normal classes. I didn't act out much or anything and my grades were top notch, but I did enjoy day dreaming and usually took a bit longer to get things done than other students because of it.
"The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people's money" - Thatcher.
Well, I'm a project manager for the media section of a text-book publisher. It's the project management that I am bad at, so I'm going to find a job where project management isn't the primary job skill. I like computers and media and education, so I may stay in this industry, but move into a position that's more about problem-solving or working directly with content (more editor-y or programmer-y). Something that would let me work at my own pace more.
;) ). Attention and follow-through, and detail-oriented work are part of any job, but there are some that are "better" than others for people with ADD. Like, if you're good at sales or writing, or whatever, you can often hire an assistant to handle the attention-heavy stuff. ADD types often do well in creative fields, too, as the "creative" thought process seems to be similar to the ADD thought process. So much so, in fact, that a recent study has shown that ADD drugs can eliminate people's ability to have "AHA!" insights when trying to solve puzzles. This has been documented by researchers and I can personally report it's true for me.
Sales is a great place for people with ADD as they are often personable and funny (perhaps I'm projecting
Don't get me wrong. I sure do know how bad addiction can get. I also know, though, that it's not a problem in and of itself. Plenty of people are addicted to stuff all the time and feel it's for the best. If I ran the world, I would try harder to accommodate differences in people's psychological makeup rather than just medicating the crap out of them.
Actually... Amphetamine was first synthesized in 1887 and initial pharmacological application was found in 1927 - that's quite a bit longer than 30 years (Adderall is just a specific combination of the left and right isomers of Amphetamine with the XR version using the Microtrol extended-release delivery system).
I also take issue with your supposed ability to determine people's need for the medication to function. As someone who works in the field, I've witnessed first hand how this medication can dramatically improve the quality of life for ADHD patients. I've also had patients with such severe ADHD that even with their medication they're unable to hold a job or live a normal life.
As you point out, improvements to executive functioning would be expected regardless if a pathology is present or not which is why we don't prescribe amphetamines or other stimulants as a fishing expedition but based on clinical criteria weighted against the risks. If there were no risks to amphetamines, you probably WOULD find amphetamine in candy. However, there are risks which is why if you do know someone who is abusing amphetamines you should encourage them to seek help. As it's well understood, amphetamine increases concentrations of dopamine in the synaptic cleft by the reversal of DAT. Unfortunately, dopamine is highly neurotoxic to most cellular structures due to its ability to auto-oxidize in the presence of oxygen radicals. Amphetamine inhibits VMAT2 which is responsible for the transport of monoamines from cellular cytosol into protective synaptic vesicles. Amphetamine also inhibits monoamine oxidase which is a family of enzymes that catalyze the oxidation of monoamines. As a result of all this dopamine hanging around, there is increased oxidative stress which in turn promotes autophagy-related degradation of dopamine axons and dendrites. Then you have downstream effects due to activation of the sympathetic nervous system - positive chronotropic and inotropic effects can result in ventricular hypertrophy among other problems.
You might be interested in this article.
I think Aderall was the prescription that I could not get while I was in Japan, in fact it was illegal and I could have gotten in trouble if they'd searched my bag at the airport and found it.
I got a prescription to J-Zoloft while in Japan for an extended time.
Beware those who travel overseas.
Self-medication with Caffeine, mostly.
What did they do before Adderall? They flunked out of college, or used drugs that weren't as effective for them, like tobacco and caffeine. Or for a few decades, they used other amphetamines, such as Benzedrine. I remember when you could get nasal decongestant inhalers that were Benzedrine-based, and Sudafed was introduced as a substitute for them, like we're now getting Phenylephrine instead of Sudafed.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
I would be quite happy to re-structure society, I'm convinced we could also do away with a lot of anti-depressant use as well that way and perhaps even some of the illicit drug use, but unfortunately there's an awful lot of inertia against that. We're quite determined as a society to structure things in an unhealthy and ultimately unsatisfying way.
Do you have a reference for that? I know about Erdos [spelled wrong because Slashdot can not handle Unicode and I'm too lazy (no speed) to see if there is an HTML entity for what should be here], because I read his biography My Brain is Open: he could not do mathematics without speed. But I'd not heard that it was a widespread phenomenon.
RTFA
All kids sometimes unintentionally hurt themselves. That's normal.
As long as the manufacturer can document that the quantity of legitimate drugs shipped match their use of amphetamine salts, what is the point of quotas? Why is the DEA involved at all in projecting and limiting the amount of any prescription drug?
If there's a problem with amphetamine salt derived drugs being overprescribed, that sounds like a problem for the FDA, not the DEA.
If there's a problem with the theft of amphetamine derived drugs, that problem will exist regardless of any quotas.
If there's a problem with theft of the amphetamine salts from manufacturers storerooms, then set high fines for loss of any material that's not accounted for in sales of legitimate drugs, making sure they will use appropriate security.
What benefit is there for restricting the amphetamine salts sales to drug manufacturers other than to drive up prices by causing false scarcity?
My son, who is diagnosed as autistic, had much the same problems as your son sounds like he has. Couldn't talk when he started school, very frustrated about not being able to articulate his needs, somewhat violent and there were times it took 2 strong men to physically control him.
We removed all diary products from his diet and the improvement was phenomenal. Started talking, calmed right down and so on. The psychiatrists were amazed. And the odd time he did have diary without my knowing it was very obvious and always turned out that yes, he did have some diary. He'll be graduating this year. Mostly gets A's and even though officially he is on the special needs program he actually does the same work as everyone else except he gets a little leeway for his crappy hand writing.
The vast majority of the worlds population can not digest cows milk, with only some Caucasians having the right mutation to digest it yet the diary industry has been sprouting propaganda for years to increase sales by making people believe they need it.
I'd suggest playing with your sons diet to see if there is an improvement. Diary is the number one product that most people can't handle with wheat being pretty high on the list as well.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
I think it's more likely to indicate (as someone who graduated college in 2006) the pattern I saw in my school -- find someone with an Adderall prescrption, pay them for a pill, and stay up all night studying so you can spend more time partying. I don't think these kids would fail out of school, just school would be harder.
However there probably is a fraction of a percent of students who really need it.
Regardless, I think all of this should be legal and if you are a college student you can decide what crazy pills you want to take. It's just children that are given these things in mass amounts, who themselves and their parents have little knowledge of their action, that I'm concerned about. No meth for kids please!!! Most parents would not serve their 8 year old a triple-lattee from Starbucks, why would they give meth?
act of god is a legal term, irrespective of one's belief in a deity.
If memory serves, the French-derived term force majeure indicates basically the same thing, only without the religious overtones.
Ah, yes, apparently force majeure is a superset of act of god. FWIW.
"What in the name of Fats Waller is that?"
"A four-foot prune."
They are my anti-drug. $7 a bottle for a month's supply, $30 if you want the ultra pure phsophyldatylcholine extract from Vitamin World, and both work as well or better than prescription drugs for ADHD. But because they can't make billions of dollars off a waste product of the soy industry, they're not interested in funding further studies on it. The only side effect I've ever encountered is having a particularly large one get stuck in my throat...
Occasionally living proof of the Ballmer peak.
Not only do I agree with you on this, but I can take it a step further and tackle both sides of the argument, I think. This topic gets me pretty riled up, so be forewarned.
I have me the bi-polar disorder, and early on was (very, very wrongly) prescribed Vyvance (a time-released amphetamine, as opposed to Adderall, which is instant-release). Worked great on the depressed side of things, and even the occasional short term manic side, for months, as it would focus my energy like a laser beam. During my more classic long term manic symptoms, though, it was like pouring gasoline on a fire to try to put it out, and my doc's response was to increase the dosage! It messed me up pretty bad; I lost a job, and then my house, to a stupid drug. I don't know how to define this situation other than a doctor-sanctioned addiction; the doc encouraged me to abuse the fuck outta the drug, so I rationalized and did so, until I finally clawed my way out of it (of which I'm very, very proud and thankful). The doc eventually lost his license; apparently he was pushing Vyvance or Adderall on all his patients, regardless of diagnosis. So, I do know little bit, personally, about an amp addiction that spans years, and I know that, yes, there are docs that push it like candy.
Even looking at what happened, I went into it knowing that sometimes drugs succeed, sometimes they fail, and sometimes they work for a bit and then don't work anymore. Sometimes they even fail in a spectacular fashion, and sometimes they are addicting. None of it matters, though, because I really do need to find a balance. The amps were absolutely amazing for a long time, until I found that they were causing damage I didn't expect. By then I was in too deep to stop taking them easily. The key is, I need to manage my head badly enough that it was worth the risk of addiction to see if the drug worked.
Without medication, I truly am serious threat to myself and others - and not because I'll kill them or beat them or steal from them or whatever-the-fuck the psycho-killers do. Rather, the threat is spending all my or my wife's money, or hurting someone's feelings unintentionally, or ignoring my kids' needs, or being generally pissed off all the time, or being sad and hopeless all the time, or ignoring financial responsibilities, etc. It may sound as if this isn't that big of a deal, but I can tell you, life simply isn't worth living if it's like that, and the overwhelming feelings of guilt for feeling that way are monstrously debilitating. I also find it interesting how closely these symptoms describe many stereotypical working men, or depressed housewives, from the 50s.
Guess what? I can probably "survive" without my (correct) meds just fine, so long as I don't let my head get away from me, much like those guys and gals in the 50s did. But wait..... you say they used opiates to treat these folks in the 50s?..... damn the luck. Ok, let's look at the 20s! Wait, wait.... uh-oh. Freud and his cocaine and psychoanalysis. Son of a bitch. Let's just skip all the way back to the 1800s then... oh... really? They used to isolate severely depressed and otherwise mentally ill folks from the rest of their family, only letting them come back after "snapping out of it"? The only alternative being to just leave their families permanently? Dang.... could this mean that depression and other psychological ailments aren't the new-fangled concepts so many people believe, after all? Nah, then we couldn't be all self-righteous about the rampant abuse of drugs like Adderall, and demand access be limited even further, instead of demanding improvements in dispensation, side-effect studies, doctor involvement in those taking these drugs, early warning signs of failed treatment and drug addiction, and most of all, studies on which ailments these drugs actually treat. People don't demand restrictions on which injuries qualify for which pain medications; instead they're happy to let qualified doctors find which medications relieve pain be
The current methotrexate (chemo drug for children) shortage is due to suppliers opting to make more expensive drugs on their manufacturing equipment. For some reason, the free market isn't working to keep supplying methotrexate, or numerous other generics. Just google "drug shortage" for over 100 examples.
Think about this in a different light. Society has become more interrupt driven due to "live" streaming of items, aka social media. It becomes very challenging to stay focused when you receive a text, tweet or e-mail every 5 minutes. It isn't a problem caused by the inability to stay focused, it is a problem caused by the level of interruption in society.
Many of those with ADD/ADHD are some of the brightest individuals out there. If your brain can process inputs fast, it WANTS to process inputs fast. If your brain cannot process them fast, you will likely get distracted.
Think about the animal kingdom, which we are a part of. If a cheetah or game animal had high ADD/ADHD, they would be more likely to survive because they are aware. That flicker out of the corner of your eye, may be a predator and noticing it may have just saved you from becoming lunch. Which, is precisely why I call ADD:
Awareness Distraction Disorder
Hope that inspires an alternate direction to the conversation. Enjoy!
Would mod you up, but I already commented, err, profusely. Thank you for this comment, sjames.
Shorts legit US customers and gives the Mexican cartels a better market because they get their precursors from foreign markets.
Surprised how post there were on this topic, ADD much /. readers?
"If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
Cool, thanks!
Space game using normal deck of cards: http://BattleCards.org
Well, hopefully they all die. That way demand will dry up.
The crowd at a Republican debate cheered this approach for uninsured sick people in need of health care.
Well, one or two people in the crowd, but even at that I agree that was still a WTF?! moment.
I found it to be not a "WTF" moment, and instead more a "wow, they're being really honest about their 'fuck everyone else' attitude..."
I'm no fan of either of the major political parties in the US -- both appear to be full of unprincipled mercenaries perfectly happy to sell the country down the shitter for the right price. That said, the Republican party seems much more the party of bald-faced sociopaths, actively courting like-minded authoritarians, selling the theme of anti-social, anti-public policy, and cultivating and capitalizing upon their audience's near-complete lack of cognitive dissonance. "I've got mine; screw you!" could well be their rallying cry.
As widely reported in the US media, such as the NY Times article, "Even Critics of Safety Net Increasingly Depend on It", the common people self-identifying as Republican are very often the very people being hurt by the espoused Republican approach to policy. More disturbingly, they've been so successfully hoodwinked that these very people have absorbed the Republican talking points about dismantling the very systems that keep themselves afloat, and happily parrot them back to anyone that asks.
That's some masterful propagandizing. I doff my cap, I really do.
So then having even a few people in a crowd, let alone a whole room, cheering for the idea that all those sick people will die off and thereby "solve" the problem of healthcare, that's just more evidence of how successful the pro-corporate, pro-wealth, anti-public idea machine has been.
All this really just helps the rest of us still capable of more rational thought to see the signs of where this might go. And it's not a pretty outlook.
"What in the name of Fats Waller is that?"
"A four-foot prune."
The real question is, why are we allowing our government to waste even more of our tax dollars on this? Yes there should be a body that steps in if the distribution of class 3 drugs begins to see a rise in illegal distribution but not limit the quantity the pharam-co's are allowed to produce. That's just silly.
Yes, there are issues with ADHD drugs being overprescribed when the issues is kids acting like kids instead of well-behaved robots (especially boys), but kids are more likely to get Ritalin; Adderall users are more likely to be college students or young working adults.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
But think of all the Amish dead from contaminated milk!
Oh...
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
You have no idea what you're talking about. They "clearly" don't need it to function, huh? It's so obvious to you, where'd you go to med school? Or, let me guess, you've been studying ADD for the past 20 years?
"But you don't need it to function. If you think that, then you're an addict and you should lay off it for a while."
Spoken by someone clearly in-the-know. In 2000 my employer dropped heath care. At $1500 a month, plus the trip to Canada, it wasn't long before I couldn't perform my engineering job. I was canned because I couldn't complete a project on time. This, after 21 years of rave reviews!
No. I didn't crave it. Not even for a moment. Following that time I've worked my way back up to a good job. The first 5 years was without heath care or the drug. Then, I finally remembered things used to be better. I went to the Doc and started again. Four weeks later I was promoted from floor electrician to electronics engineer. Who would have guessed I had letters after my name? I didn't. No, I don't need it to function. What a load of crap coming from somebody with enough intelligence to frequent \.
The easiest, cheapest and most effective way for a doctor and parents to figure out if a kid is really ADHD is to try the medicine for a couple of weeks. I have four adopted kids. ONE of them didn't bounce off the walls more when the pills were tried on him. The ONE who didn't was like turning on/off a light switch. The kid literally acts drunk when not on the medicine (Ritalin in his case-- Adderall at age 8 made him suicidal.. scary as it seems, it's not to be screwed around with), and fine and extremely smart (like the poor #$@ will be an engineer smart) when on it. He's in control on the medicine.. completely out of control w/o.
Everyone else in the family got a "little high" from the experiment (doctor prescribed)... so there you go. It's sooo easy to tell if the ADHD thing is legimate..BY trying the pills.
They're manufacturing plenty of antipsychotics so the people who miss the functional enhancement of their amphetamines can instead enjoy a state of not caring about anything at all
I'm glad it worked out for you, but I'm not sure I agree. It's powerful medicine and I don't see giving it to my kid just in case it makes her (in her teachers' words) "behave better".
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
I get this information from talking to them and making observations of their behavior, not making mean spirited declarations like you have above. Many of them readily admit they do not need it and would like to stop using it, but it is now required for them to function at work at the level expected of them. Of course this is anecdotal and not empirical evidence.
And yes, I actually have a lot of knowledge about ADD medications, I worked as a pharmaceutical patent paralegal before starting an IT career. I was involved in helping writing the patent for Adderall XR among other things.
What medical knowledge or background in pharmacy do you have to justify your trollish comments?
Chemical compound shortage on an otherwise illicit drug, that helps people concentrate due to media over-stimulation, but is massively over-prescribed.
If this isn't the monkey fucking the football, nothing is!
Who still takes Adderall? Gogo vyvanse.
I take back my previous comments about ADD meds and SSRIs. Please go and get yourself on some SSRI's or some Adderall so you can be a happier person instead! :)
If there was a way for many of these people (and many people with ADD do fine without meds) to make a living that didn't rely on organization, attention to detail, etc....
There is a way for these people to make a living...the job is termed "legislator".
Provigil or Nuvigil - Anti Narcoleptic non-amphetamine... All the awake without the shakes!
Just expensive as hell $10-$20 USD per pill.
In a free market, both the buyers and sellers are free to choose. Yes, it is very much fine for the sellers to push as hard as they want to to sell their goods. It's up to the buyers to decide what they need. The problem here is that the decisions are being made by third parties - doctors and sometimes parents - who sometimes don't act with the best interests of the consumer.
But in any case, the closer the decision making is to the consumer, the better (cases where the consumer by the very nature of the problem can't be the one making the decision are always going to be problematic).
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
Also I think that one has the prescription it shouldn't be considered a prescription for life! We don't treat most other medications that way. Instead we try to get the patients off of the medication, reduce the dosage over time, etc. Figure out the minimum that the child needs to function, figure out alternative solutions.
(The school looked at her and said she's ADHD and recommended drugs. The doctor agreed to prescribe with no testing, which made me suspicious. I had her formally tested, and she's not ADHD. She's severely dyslexic. I'd like to personally thank the school system and medical community for screwing that up.)
They're terrible at diagnosing unusual or obscure things that look like things they know how to treat. With that said: it might ge that your daughter has vision tracking/fusion problems, which are sometimes a cause of dyslexia. My wife's a vision therapist (and dyslexic) and she's helped a lot of kids diagnosed with dyslexia to vastly improve their reading speed and math abilities by helping them learn to train their eyes. A lot of dyslexia cases are caused by processing problems, but a lot of them can be treated or at least minimized with vision therapy, so it might be worthwhile to your daughter to at least take her to a vision therapist and see if there's any likelihood of improvement. (And age doesn't matter much: one of her patients is 84 and is slowly improving from double vision problems she's had for years.)
Nostalgia's not what it used to be.
...meth is cheaper and easier to get than ever.
This hints at the core problem. The mythical free market only works when a) information and b) power is symmetrically distributed between seller and buyer. Which is, frankly, more utopic than pure Marxism.
Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
More and more people are taking it for weight loss. Americans are fat and we need a miracle diet pill. Never mind if it makes us act insane.
Chewbacon
The Bible is like Wikipedia: written by a bunch of people and verifiable by questionable sources.
You've nailed it on the head. ADHD only exists when those behaviors are called symptoms and then your kids are put in a box everyday to learn and they bounce around. The education system and helicopter parenting is the problem, NOT the kids. It's criminal to give kids these drugs. It's criminal to invent and market these diseases to the masses. It's criminal that it's backed by the FDA.
It's total BS. The behaviors they are exhibiting are natural and not a disease. Bad parenting or good evolution explain both -- these behaviors have not been an issue before every aspect of a child's upbringing began being analyzed and controlled. Kids have energy, kids are sponges who's attention bounces from place to place because that is how they learn. It used to be that kids came home and went out in the field or forest behind their house and played for hours on end until it was dark and they had to come home -- and which point they were tired and spent -- homework could then happen, maybe even a couple of simple chores.
and could solve some of the budget problems at the same time.
Tell these companies that they can
1 start churning out the generics to ensure the supply
or
2 start paying truly epic fines
or
3 find that they are no longer certified to produce ANY drugs (and they are cut off from the supply of precursors)
Any person using FTFY or editing my postings agrees to a US$50.00 charge
Imagine living in a fog of confusion and insatiable restlessness, unable to follow a coherent train of thought or feel any satisfaction from the activities that make you happy, and as a result, failing at everything you do, despite having the skill and ambition; does that sound like fun to you?
Worst of all is having to put up with mouthbreathing twats who dismiss the condition responsible for ruining your life as a 'fake' disease, despite knowing sweet fuck all about it (reading wacky conspiracy theories about 'big pharma' doesn't make you an expert in neuropsychiatry, sorry).
I didn't get my diagnosis until adulthood, at which point the damage had been done, so don't think for a second that it's 'all in my head' or that I'm using it as an excuse for being 'lazy' (I wish it was just laziness). Despite it's reputation as a 'happy fun hyperactivity WOO SPEED' label slapped on badly behaved kids, ADHD is a very real, very debilitating condition (or to be precise, a manifestation of several neurological conditions that result in specific dopaminergic dysfunctions); pure suffering.
If taking stimulants (which, by the way, are the only class of drug available on prescription to have any effect on the only well-studied common neurological mechanisms associated with ADHD) to make my life bearable enough that I don't feel like ending it makes me a 'big pharma slave', so be it.
Absolutely. She went to regular vision therapy for two summers, enjoyed most of it (she most enjoyed the exercise of jumping on a trampoline while reading off a blackboard) and it really did help. The doctors initially said she would never read better than third grade, and although at 17 she still doesn't read anything close to average, she's done much better than predicted.
I second your wife's recommendation.
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
Also I think that one has the prescription it shouldn't be considered a prescription for life! We don't treat most other medications that way. Instead we try to get the patients off of the medication, reduce the dosage over time, etc. Figure out the minimum that the child needs to function, figure out alternative solutions.
How well is that working out for Type 1 Diabetes?
Some things are chronic conditions. It is what it is, and the price of the medication is the price of being a functional member of society.
...si hoc legere nimium eruditionis habes...
But you don't need it to function. If you think that, then you're an addict and you should lay off it for a while.
Define function. If you mean sitting on my ass mindlessly flipping through the channels while the day disappears, then yeah you're right. If you mean meeting deadlines, staying (reasonably) organized and actually getting something useful accomplished in a given day, you could not be more wrong.
I occasionally take medication vacations (usually when I'm on vacation) and I'll be blunt, I'm usually disappointed with myself afterwards for not meeting any of the goals I had set for myself during the time off. I wind up getting distracted by the latest shiny thing to enter my life, and never get that hike done, change the oil in my car, etc...
...si hoc legere nimium eruditionis habes...
Ultimitely working for what you get is better for the human spirit than handouts. And there really is a trade off between the amount of handouts and the difficulty of self-sufficiency. But it's easier to just accuse people of greed and meanness than think things through, I guess.
It sounds like you're trying to put words in my mouth. At the bare minimum, you seem to have understood my post to mean "Free handouts for everybody, permanently!" That's not my point.
My point in my previous post is that the Republican party espouses certain policy goals that have been harmful to the working poor, and the party's strategists have been very successful in selling an emotional ideal of independent, belligerent, strike-it-rich boot-strapping to many of these working poor, such that they pledge their support of Republican policy even as it destroys their livelihoods. I've watched this dynamic play out for decades, and it fascinates and worries me.
In response to your post here, I quite agree with your initial statement, that working for something is generally the better option for an individual's psychological well-being. This is borne out in my own experience and from others that I've known, where people who have had to work for things in their lives tend to have a more grounded sense of worth, be hard workers, and strive to succeed; whereas people who have had things just given to them tend to not appreciate what they have, be listless, and avoid striving if possible. Of course, this is a gross generalization, it's just my own observation, YMMV, and all that.
However, cutting off social safety net funding is not a very effective way to help people work for their keep, especially when the jobs just aren't there, and instead will do much more to destabilize society and hurt people already down on their luck. And that's just a recipe for misery and violence.
"What in the name of Fats Waller is that?"
"A four-foot prune."
Right on. I could easily get a ADHD -diagnose if I wanted to, it's just made up words to keep those bright young minds under medication and ultimately, under control. Addicted, hooked to the medical system.
ADHD is an inventend syndrome. Something to sell more Big Pharma Drugs to our kids, or more precisely, adults who think that their children need this. If kids were really told about what these so-called ADHD -drugs do to their system, they would use their Common Sense (kids still have it) and determine that this is toxic to their system.
This is why it's called ADHD. So we'll get confused what is happening. Oh, it's ADHD! Yeah, my kid has that too. Oh, your kid is not listening to the lies they are being showed down their throats in school? Give them some Adderal!
And at the same time we are forgetting wtf we are doing, giving kids highly addictive and behaviour changing drugs. Imagine if you had been growing up while taking amphetamine every day ? What kind human would you grow up to be? What kind of psychological reactions are forming in these kids bodies and minds as they are growing up while being under the influence of this stuff?
Putting amphetamines on these young kids bodies will get them concentrated, sure. It's goddamn amphetamine. Amphetamine is used to keep soldiers awake and functioning as machines of war. Hitler used to get shots of amphetamine in his eye given by his medical staff everyday. Amphetamine is what fueled the Finnish Army during the cold war. It's goddamn amphetamine! Nothing to play around with, really.
This performance driven, money-overcomes-everything society wants to produce happy little worker drones, who are ready and willing to work those 60-80 hour weeks, no questions asked. Adderal and other psyche altering drugs are the tools for keeping us concentrated, sedated, happy little numb people that we are. Feeling depressed? Here, take this! Bing, no emotions, you are a Robot, ready to go to work 5 days a week.
Is anyone asking what side-effects this stuff has ? Blocking of emotions ? Rail-driven thinking ? Not seeing the big picture, focusing on little things ?
Kids shouldn't need any psyche-altering medications to begin with. What they need is just some love and care.
GeoKone.NET
I like your sig :)
However I would like to point out that Lucas is not the most guilty of graphics overkill. A lot of visuals in the Star Wars prequels for example were actually practical sets and models. Sure a lot of CG was used, but nowhere as much as, say, Sky Captain or Avatar.
Lucas gets the reputation for this possibly because he started out before CG was practical so we can compare the relatively CG-free original SW trilogy (before they were altered) to the CG-heavy prequels, with all their sloppy writing and atrocious acting.
To me the act of Lucasing something might be to create something, release a "new-and-improved" version, then deny that the original ever existed whilst pretending that your "original" vision was this new one.
Alternatively to "pull a Lucas" could be to unwittingly stumble into a high level of success then pretend you planned the whole thing.
Anyway, that's probably more than you really cared about. Sorry.
"Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
1:Ability to make choices
2:Perfect knowledge so you can make those choices
3:Acting rationally so you can take avantage of 1 and 2
That whole free market thing is a theoretical model anyway since no real market really has those 3 properties.(Kind of like how the ideal gas law is a good model and it's kind of close but if your real gas deviates a lot from the ideal one the ideal gas model won't work too well.)
Obviously you think that because you're a drug-addled hippie.
How to discern? Well atleast here in Sweden when my boy was diagnosed with ADD he was put under close study during several weeks where they conducted several tests which outcome have nothing to do with discipline and parenting. In short it was very thourogh. And I guess that the same scheme could be applied in the US (and I think that it is in some places). Also I think that the abuse is highly overreted, you would have to consume some large amounts of these pills before you would even reach the levels drug users use when they misue Amphetamines. So another thing to stop abuse would be to monitor for those that consume their months supply in a single day.
By "graphics overkill" I mean digitally inserting elements that were unnecessary and detracted from the story. Example 1 (of many): All the new little cute squeaky things in Star Wars (the original movie) when it was revamped were profoundly irritating. Example 2: Contrast the space battle in the original film, which was coherent enough that you could understand tactics, with the overly busy, incomprehensible space battle scenes in the prequels.
So, it's not specifically the use of special effects, but the use of unnecessary and distracting elements, that really chapped my ass. Just sayin'.
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
Your cool, passionate friend was someone else's bipolar nightmare.
Ritalin is not amphetamine. Learn something before spouting off.
How about let DOCTORS fucking decide if people need it?
For the same reason that you let engineers design bridges and geeks work with computers.
My mother called me a parasite, lazy bum, to-be-welfare recipient, a cancerous leech, etc. etc. That was *after* I was diagnosed for ADD, because she didn't believe I had it despite being a psychiatrist.
Ah the good old days.
No I need it just to do anything complex with my brain. Anything that requires mental effort immediately makes me sleepy or incredibly distracted.
Heh... I tried doing med school without medicine for ADD. That didn't work out so well.
There's very little need for power to be symmetrically distributed - the buyer needs the power to choose from mutliple sellers, and to actually get what he was promised in the transaction, that's about it. Information is different, fraud prevention is a quite important function of government after all.
Look at how the commodities markets work. Almost anyone would consider those a free market, yet there's tons of rules involved. But there are few actual laws, mostly where non-economic disincentives for cheating need to be added, and most of the rules are procedural. It's a "free" market because the governement doesn't limit who can buy or sell, nor at what price, not because anything goes.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
Plus we have other legal stimulants like caffeine and up until recently ephedrine. You can probably plot the end of ephedrine supply against the rise of adderall use and get a perfect X graph. It remains to be seen which is the less harmful drug but I'd say ephedrine is definitely less likely to be abused since it doesn't hit dopamine like amphetamines.
Cool! Amazing Toys.
In my time we were the kids in high school that drank coffee, smoked cigarettes, took mini-thins, joined bands (stage fright naturally releases adrenaline increasing concentration), drag raced, played sports, etc. School is hard, speed helps. But to medicalize it rather than maybe just increasing the length of the school day, going slower, improving educational techniques, improving values around education...is a farce of the highest magnitude and one we will pay for some day as a society. Just like the Nazi Germans took tons of methamphetamines and used it to blitzkrieg europe, eventually the high wears off and then you're left with substanitally less than you had before. (The allies took regular amphetamines pretty regularly as well). Look people, do what you have to do to get them a good education, but do whatever you can to keep your kids off speed.
Cool! Amazing Toys.
They fought wars, went to prison a lot, were entrepreneurs, fighter pilots, firefighters, and a lot of other careers that most people consider crazy. Long ago they were hunters, not farmers.
It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
Aderall is amphetamine. Biochemical effects are the same between methylphenidate and amphetamine, they stimulate the same areas in the brain in the same way, I think it is just as relavent.
When Argumentum ad Hominem falls short, try Argumentum ad Matrem
Yeah sorry I just had to get that off my chest. Fair enough. Carry on :)
But personally, I don't like the idea of being an enabler of such behavior as we watch people destroy their own lives and that of their children through neglect.
But you are cool with telling other people how to live their lives, because you know what is best for them, I see.
I have never used drugs. I don't even like taking aspirin. I don't drink coffee or smoke and I rarely drink alcohol. But you know what? I am totally for decriminalization of drugs, because I believe that people should be allowed to make their own choices about how they live their lives. I know I am not wise enough of a person to be able tell people how to live their lives, and be correct. Part of living in a free country is allowing others to do things that we don't find to be appealing. You are failing to respect that other people might know what is best for themselves and govern their own lives.
Conservative, N - A concerned hypocrite who doesn't want government to interfere with their lives. They want the government to interfere with everyone else's.
HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!
"What did people do before Adderall then, simply not function? It's only been around for around 30 years."
Please. People who were depressed killed themselves, as they still do in places where they are ostracised and not helped. Schizophrenics and people with other disorders were tied up. Without these drugs, it took me over seven years to complete a three year university degree, despite always scoring in the top 1-4% of the test takers (not even general population) in every aptitude test I have ever taken. I have never taken a dose higher than what's prescribed by my doctor, I often skip one or two of the three prescribed doses because if I take it too late in the day it messes up my sleep cycle. I still 'function' without it, except I get fired from the jobs I do extremely well with the drug, I write, I read more, and generally make more of a contribution to society. I don't commit any crimes, hurt anyone, abuse the drug, show any sociopathic behaviour or generally do anything that would classify me as mentally unstable a danger to society or anyone. I need those drugs to function the way I want and I make a better contribution to society as a result, we don't end up in rehab at public cost. Many of us diagnosed ourselves because we got little help fromthe medical system. I understand high doses of these drugs can be used as party drugs, well so can opioids from what I know, and I don't hear anyone asking for people in hospital to be left without morphine.
Please leave me alone, and especially ADHD adults alone. We need these drugs, and it has no effect on anyone else. It is darn near impossible to explain this condition to anyone not willing to spend days listening, reading and understanding. Most of the time it's not worth trying. So just, let us take our medication, and leave us alone. There are only a few countries in the world these drugs are available, one reason I don't want to go back to my home country. Some countries, even developed countries like Japan do not allow you to bring even a prescription bottle of these medications in. So I can't even go on a short work assignment to Japan without being forced to perform much below my potential. An alternate drug, Methylphenidate (Ritalin etc) which is available in more countries produces awful side effects in me and many others.
Anyone interested in understanding the condition, don't read wikipedia, don't read the DSM summary. That will just make you say that everyone has those problems. Don't read any website, not even usually reliable medical websites. Maybe a few journal papers. Then read more than one of the books written by practitioners who have spent decades working with ADHD, because they are among the very few, even in their own profession, who have any understanding of adult ADHD.
http://www.amazon.com/Delivered-Distraction-Getting-Attention-Disorder/dp/034544230X/ref=cm_lmf_tit_3/175-5015545-0743120
http://www.amazon.com/Stupid-Self-Help-Attention-Deficit-Disorder/dp/0684815311/ref=cm_lmf_tit_8/175-5015545-0743120
http://www.amazon.com/Driven-Distraction-Recognizing-Attention-Childhood/dp/0684801280/ref=cm_lmf_tit_9/175-5015545-0743120
He was referring to individual cases of diagnosis & prescription. The DEA don't do that.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Where "symptoms" = acting like children?
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Yeah, because there are a lot fewer people in the US justice system now than there used to be. Right.
I'm guessing you were home the day they covered "orders of magnitude".
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
I don't disagree. I ran into a perception in my daughter's grade school amongst the staff that Ritalin made the class quieter and easier to control. (I'm not sure that was true, but it was the perception.) The same woman would say daughter had a discipline problem and in almost the same breath say I should drug her. I asked her what a discipline problem and drugs have in common, and she responded (not really answering the question) that her own son was on Ritalin and he was doing so much better. (Which may even be true, but past performance is no indication of future results.)
But oddly, her fourth grade teacher, who was actually engaged with his students and could keep their attention, did fine with her. One of his techniques was to take them all outside and run them in a circle for a few minutes before giving a lesson. Somewhat along the lines of what you were saying. It worked really well.
I observed that the general activity on the playground was much less than I remembered from school. "Tag", and any game that involved someone chasing someone else, was absolutely forbidden. There was no game equipment, frisbees, balls, no organized games, only a couple of crowded play structures on overpadded ground. Kids wandered around or sat under one of the trees. There wasn't a lot of opportunity to burn off energy.
I do not believe this grade school was unique. What it takes in the discovery process is (a) the school diagnoses your kid with ADD, (b) you don't blindly go along with it, (c) you confirm your suspicions with independent testing, and (d) you are determined enough and intelligent enough to dig into why the school is so hell bent on medicating your child. The results you get are like something out of Portlandia.
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
I can totally vouch for your situation with your child. I have the same story. My daughter was diagnosed with ADD and Executive Function Disorder in 5th grade. She is extremely bright and like the person who said they cheated to get by in school, she coped by memorizing things and started to fall behind when the work became more structured and analytical in 5 and 6th grade. She knew she was different which added an anxiety component to the mess. We fought with the school system for years to work with my round peg in a square pegged education system and socially and academically, my daughter could not even understand assignments and rules that others took for granted. She has been taking Concerta or Stratera for about 11 years and when she forgets it, she can't function in this highly organized, anal retentive education system. She has been unable to work at school and falls behind and then is too scared to get help, or can't figure out the system of how to get coaching and has flunked out of three colleges, yet reads and analyzes at an astounding high level, has published articles and books in her chosen field of psychology. Without the concerta she wouldn't have gotten even this far.
What's so strange and fascinating about this discussion is that I had no idea why suddenly it has become difficult to fill her prescriptions.
ADD is a neurological disorder -- not a disease but a sort of mis-wiring of the brain causing problems with how it processing certain neurotransmitters, namely dopamine and noroemphetomine. The amphetamines in Adderall (which she never could handle) somehow enable better processing of these neurotransmitters. There is no addiction because the drugs enable a normal function.
We've been working with bureaucracies for years to enable my daughter to get the training and skills she needs -- not hand outs, just attention from teachers, professors, and now employers so that instructions are presented in small chunks and she has learned many systems to enable her to manage time and organization. Executive Function Disorders and ADD are real and the withholding of compounds that make up the drugs that help people who suffer from having to deal with a society that can't understand people who are wired differently is really upsetting. Just as I feel like a criminal when I try to get the Allegra D or other sinus medication. Just because people abuse something shouldn't make everyone a criminal.
In my granddaughter's high school about 10% of the students are on some kind of ADHD or ADD drug. Many don't take it because they don't like the side effects. The result is that there is a ton of this stuff freely available to students who shouldn't have it. As she describes it, there are students doing lines of Adderoll in the cafeteria. Teachers watch this and do nothing. I am normally fairly liberal about legalizing drugs for adults, but this creeps me out.
We sent my daughter to school with a lock box for her medications because Adderall goes for something like $10 a pill in some schools. I'm to saying it's not abused -- that really upsets me too -- but I love the statement above that Governments shouldn't be involved in restricting access. If a drug is misused, the sale and use of it has to be managed through rules and consequences. Depriving the people who need the drugs so that they are not abused makes no sense to me. Teaching control to our children is a huge responsibility of parents.
If you have ADHD, does smoking a cigarette allow you to focus?
Back in the day, if you had to stay up all night you would just smoke and drink coffee. I never quite knew whether the coffee kept you up while the nicotine was just there to control the jitters, or whether the nicotine was also helping you focus. Or maybe just taking away the pain of being up at 4am.
But there may be something to that, since cigarettes also function as an appetite suppressant.
I'm not advocating smoking over amphetamines, just curious whether conflicting social policies are at play here (smoking is bad, adderall use is up).
Someone who gets more energetic on it doesn't need it, someone who calms down needs it. It works completely the opposite on people who it does not help.
Personally, I don't take drugs anymore for my ADD, but, I am utterly useless without that cup of coffee, which has the same calming effect. So until you have dealt with it yourself, don't judge others.
Speed is in the exact same class of drug as Adderall.
APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
I find systems administration work is good for me as I bounce between problems often enough to not be stuck on one problem too long. Though I always get dinged on my lack of communication skills.
APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
Well, there are also some serious liver problems you can develop, and lethargy, and shakes. BUT, if you never had those reactions previously, than I agree with the psych, something else happened.
APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?