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'The Hobbit' Pub Threatened With Lawsuit
An anonymous reader writes "'The Hobbit,' a small pub in Southampton, England, has been threatened with a lawsuit by lawyers representing the Saul Zaentz Company in California. The pub, which has traded under the name for the last 20 years without incident, now faces closure if it does not change its name. It's yet another example of big business throwing its weight around to get its way. The pub's landlady said simply, 'I can't fight Hollywood.'"
Change name to "The Halfling". Problem solved.
#naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
Do what TSR did and name it the halfling.
Silence is a state of mime.
change the name to the Lord of the Rings Pub.
The Habit.
"No fear. No envy. No meanness." Liam Clancy
is to rename it as "The Habit".
TPFKATH
The Pub Formerly Known As The Hobbit
They should kickstart fund the signage and associated paperwork.
The "Fuck you Hollywood"
Here:
http://www.facebook.com/SaveTheHobbitSouthampton?ref=ts
I reject your reality and substitute my own.
Call it the Bobbit. Oh, wait...
What one fool can do, another can. (Ancient Simian Proverb)
Zieg Heil, mein American Jackboot!
America stomps on the world again, and you wonder why the world HATES you.
I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
Everyone will know what it means.
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
They should call it the Tolk Inn.
Name it the Ten-Forward Lord Smoked Meat and Fish's Leaky Cauldron Pub and Mos Eisley Cantina of the Vulgar Unicorn.
With all the lawsuit Publicity, you'll never close. Throw in a walk-down like Cheers and a surly endangered animal smuggling bartender named Moe, and the lawyers will be your best patrons.
From TFA:
Seems a pretty clear-cut case of copyright infringement to me. Or can I open a "Mos Eisley Catina" pub, with pictures of Harrison Ford & Alec Guiness & not expect repercussions?
If you look at their website, you'll see they use likenesses of the characters from the movies in their advertising. If the pub was just using fan artwork or coming up with their own graphical material (while using the names), they may have been left alone. But they are using the faces from the movie in their own advertising and promotional material (posters, loyalty card). That's just asking for trouble.
Its not what it is, its something else.
They could always change its name to "This Pub Was Forced To Change Its Name By The Money-Hungry Cunts At The Saul Zaentz Company." The signwriting costs could be prohibitive, though.
dropping all the first letters and replacing with aprostophes? i.e. The 'Obbit pub. The drink challenge is the 'Ellowship of the Ring. is it enough?
on the other hand, friends who were regulars are staying away at the moment anyway allegedly due to bad changes in bouncers.
the name isn't what keeps people going there so its a non issue. (unless there are sad bastards who would go there only over the name... a tiny minority). otherwise its just another late opening pub in a town with 2 universities that happends to have a large outside area and a damn good food hut.
The guy has been a dick forever, Just ask John Fogerty. You cannot copyright a word. And as for a trademark, one is unlikely to confuse a book/film with a pub.
....if nine of them showed up to the pub dressed as Nazgul.
The pub isn't just named The Hobbit, it's a direct reference to JRR Tolkien's work. The pub sign has images of characters from Middle Earth and you can order cocktails called a "Gandalf" and a "Frodo". The loyalty cards even have Elijah Wood's face on them.
Now I like to hate on Hollywood as much as anyone and how I hate the big guy stepping on the little guy blah blah blah, but this is blatant copyright infringement and is asking for trouble. A little common sense goes a long way.
Now, if it was named "The Hobbit" after some local reference or something equally pointless, then yes, bashing Hollywood would be acceptable.
Vanz can't dance, but he'll steal your money,
Watch him - or he'll rob you blind...
http://www.songfacts.com/detail.php?id=7123
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
Mr. Saul Zaentz has a long history of being a dick. Zaentz sued Creedence Clearwater's John Fogerty for plagiarizing himself (!) asking $140 million in damages, and lost.
Zaentz's perception is that he owns the 'brand' Hobbit, although he only owns screen rights.
And then explain that to everyone who asks.
I live near the Hobbit pub, it's a great place for some rock/indie/odd-music.
It's been open for years - before the movie adaptations were even considered - yes they use the some of the films pictures on some things now, but they aren't making money out of that (a loyalty card...), the pub is based on the original work, which really should be fair use by now, not this Micky Mouse bullshit long extension time copyright being pulled on something that only promotes the work!!!!
Of course they can't fight Hollywood, since they've been using stills from the movies in their advertising. Take a look at their website, that's obviously a photograph of Elijah Wood from the LOTR movies on their "One Card To Bind Them All" loyalty card:
http://www.hobbitpub.co.uk/drink-offers/
They're not fighting Hollywood since they don't have a leg to stand on. If they would have used original artwork instead of copyrighted images from a movie, I'd be on their side.
This is absurd.
The pub will never impact the business of these greedy bastards.
... Shire Art?
-- Insert witty one-liner here. --
Call it "The Other Tolkein's Estate"!
I know... the usual arguments apply but I'm going to reference Wikipedia anyway: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobbit
Seems to me that, as is usually the case, art owes itself to art which came before it. A name here, a concept there, whether consciously or not, no one has truly original ideas or thought on their own. There are variations and twists but it's called evolution, not creation.
This quibbling and fighting in courts represents the utter denial of what it is to be human. We learn from each other. We teach each other. We entertain each other. And to place a restriction, an ownership or a price tag on human habit and human legacy isn't just tragic, it simply denies what and who we are. And we're just about the only animal on the planet that can do what we do. It's not the use of tools. It's not even that we speak a language. It's that we can teach each other things without having to live through the entirety of human development to advance further than picking up a stick to get bugs out of a tree.
When you put any kind of limit on that, you are in direct opposition to human development. Not that anyone can really do that successfully... well, maybe they can... I once heard about some sort of dark ages which somehow wiped out hundreds or even thousands of years of human development and knowledge so I guess it's possible. But will the next dark ages be caused by the courts and copyright law? Or perhaps it will be because of a war fought defending and imposing copyright law...
You mean J.R.R Tolkein doesn't tend bar in this "Hobbit" pub? Geez, I was sure that because they named this bar "The Hobbit Bar" that Tolkein would be hanging around making brandy alexanders and stuff.
I mean, any reasonable person would see "The Hobbit Pub" and assume that it meant that they were showing the movie inside 'round the clock or that Tolkein was there greeting people or something. Or at least that Peter Jackson was bussing tables or shaking his fat ass in a g-string. I simply cannot believe that there is no connection between a bar called "The Hobbit" and the book or the movie of the same name or any of the fine collectable and fully-licensed products currently on sale at Toys'R'Us. I mean, if I walked into a bar called "The Hobbit" and didn't see like all the characters from the movie huffing poppers and dancing to "I'm Sexy and I Know It" I would like totally feel ripped off by the makers of the Tolkein movies, you know?
This is why we need to have stronger intellectual property laws, that last forever plus one year. Oh, and the death penalty for anyone who breaks them. To the seventh generation.
By the way, my last name is "Carter" and I've decided to name my newborn son "John" and Disney can just come and suck my dick right now. Oh, and I plan on telling everyone that my son is going to be the first man on Mars. Well, not the first man, because somebody had to make that big face on mars, so let's just call it "the first man since the guys who built that big face left" on Mars.
And Disney can still suck my dick. And Peter Jackson, the Tolkein family and whichever farkakte movie studio makes that garbage and whoever licensed all the characters to sell to pathetic neckbeards who line up on 0-day to see the movie and buy all the cheesy crap. Line up right here and suck away.
You are welcome on my lawn.
Yah, shouldn't mess with Saul, baby. He's a mean snot. So edge around him...cause he would ask for more than the licensing is worth (about 3 quid).
Play with the name - like my local in Surrey - (The Fox Revived) - which does NOT refer to my girlfriend..
And put up an apostrophe, it will be pronounced the same in cockney.
the `obbit
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
Hope they never find any of the Zaphod Beeblebrox pubs in Ottawa... that would be a disaster (I have many fond memories in them, and none requiring a paper bag over my head)
I say don't drink and drive, you might spill your drink. Before you get behind the wheel just stop and think.
or the Butthead Lawyer
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
He sure can sue!
HmmmRemember Fogerty v. Fantasy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fogerty_v._Fantasy
and this response?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eJ7-atpcpQ
"The Land Shark Lair" would be my choice.
In the mean time we need to work on establishing the culture of boycotting any and all commercial literature or other works that do things like this. Everyone of near childbearing age needs to make a lifelong commitment to never expose their children to any of Tolkien's works, and refuse to buy products from any company that licenses those works.
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
I felt sorry for this pub until I actually went to the website. The summary would have you believe the big guys are trying to crush the little guys over a little innocent naming. Not so-- Visiting the website will immediately welcome you with faces and figures from the films, trademark and copyright infringement everywhere.
I don't feel sorry for a pub that is trying to leech from the popularity of the source material and the films. Maybe it didn't start out that way, but that's what it appears to be now.
Zaentz can't dance, but he'll steal your money
Watch him or he'll rob you blind
Rename it "The Precious".
Did you see that tiny little text at the bottom of the site? It reads:
Site designed and built by frozendesigns.co.uk
Perhaps the pub should be raising some hell with them. Specifically on why they don't seem to understand the concept of building web sites using only original and/or royalty free images.
---
DRM is like antifreeze, to the MPAA/RIAA it's sweet, to the consumers it's poison.
One more reason that I will be boycotting* the movie industry until some shit really changes.
*By boycotting, I do not mean pirating as that would only give them more fuel for their legal team's endless legal fire.
If carrots got you drunk, rabbits would be fucked up. - Comedian Mitch Hedberg R.I.P. 03/30/68-2/24/05
Rename it "Fuck you, Holywood". I'm Serious. People will come because they hate the big establishment, it'll become a tourist attraction, and all the regulars will keep coming, and they get to stick it to the assholes.
Here and back again.
If they have been in business for twenty years, I don't see how laches doesn't apply.
I have two problems with this:
1. Years ago when i bought my copies of the Hobbit and the Ring series, there was a message on the back from J.R.R.T. himself, saying in effect that he had let the books slip out of copyright, but he thought it would be a nice thing if you bought the version that he had negotiated with the publishers rather than an "unauthorized" version. So what happened to change this?
My understanding of copyright law was that you could absolutely not copyright a title. So if the pub is only using the name "The Hobbit" and isn't displaying pictures of Hobbits from any source tied to the books or movies, just what is their legal claim?
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
Why not?
It seems Zaentz, has this covered. He filed a trademark in 2011 which covers this line of business. So, he's nice and timely. Had the bar owners trademarked their drinks 20 years ago, they'd be fine now. But "Whosover files first wins", in trademark law.
They could offer to buy the pub instead, then they could go nuts with using LOTR & Hobbit imagery for the advertising of the pub.
To do something right, you often have to roll up your sleeves and get busy.
name it the Sosumi. or the BHA. Bhabbit?
PS. Tolkien wanted to create a mythology for england. hard to do that when it copyrighted and trademarked. Josis fucking Chirsp in a chicken basket...
Not to mention what was done to Dennis McKiernan.
Eventually, of course, every word in the english language will be trademarked, copyrighted (in perpetuity for Disney) and patented. We will no more be able to speak or write than a farmer is allowed to save his seed.
But I'm an optimist. I believe that before we reach the point of a DRM DNA being inserted into our brains, there will be lawyers at the bottom of the ocean. And even, perhaps, the odd titan of industry.
C'mon, they've got likenesses of the film
actors all over the place. How did they think they wouldn't get sued? Maybe if they weren't passing around cards with Cate Blanchett as Galadrial, the main cast on their menus, and lord knows what else, they'd have continued to fly under the radar. How they've escaped the ire of The Tolkien family themselves is beyond me.
Also, the article only says they've been told to stop using the characters, it's not
clear they have to change the name of the joint ("The Hobbit" was a title, not one of the characters).
I mean that Saul Zaentz one ...
AGAIN with the prior art!
From Wikipedia on "Hobbit":(debate away!)
"Evidence of earlier use
The only source known today that makes reference to hobbits in any sort of historical context is the Denham Tracts by Michael Aislabie Denham. More specifically, it appears in the Denham Tracts, edited by James Hardy, (London: Folklore Society, 1895), vol. 2, the second part of a two-volume set compiled from Denham's publications between 1846 and 1859.
The text contains a long list of sprites and bogies, based on an older list, the Discovery of Witchcraft, dated 1584, with many additions and a few repetitions. The term hobbit is listed in the context of
boggleboes, bogies, redmen, portunes, grants, hobbits, hobgoblins, brown-men, cowies, dunnies
In the December 2003 Oxford English Dictionary newsletter, in the "Words of Choice" section, the following appears:
4. hobbit â" J. R. R. Tolkien modestly claimed not to have coined this word, although the Supplement to the OED credited him with the invention of it in the absence of further evidence. It seems, however, that Tolkien was right to be cautious. It has since turned up in one of those 19th-century folklore journals, in a list of long-forgotten words for fairy-folk or little people. It seems likely that Tolkien, with his interest in folklore, read this and subconsciously registered the name, reviving it many years later in his most famous character. [Editor's note: although revision of the OED's entry for hobbit will of course take this evidence for earlier use into account, it does not yet appear in the online version of the entry.] "
Well one of them, I generally prefer the Shooting Star - about 200 yards further down the hill these days (as it has a better pool table). Over twenty years I have been drinking at the Hobbit. Last night a group of my friends all gathered there for a drink in the mistaken belief they could do something about this.
I don't think anybody is going to argue the film is not infringing copyright, even in the early 90s there were posters of illustrations from the book on the walls. They introduced a range of cocktails based on characters in the books (Gimli, Legolas and so on). When the films were introduced they brought in pictures from the films and hung them on the walls. They make "The Hobbit" T-Shirts. They have a life size statue of Aragorn from the movies in there. So discussions on the "hobbit" being an English word and prior art are irrelevent - they have posters and paintings from the film and book in there.
The point is that they have been called The Hobbit for a very long time and this lawsuit has popped up only because of the new film coming out. And SZC has probably been trawling the net looking for targets, I think that after the first trilogy films came and went and there was no mention of it there was an assumption things would remain the same for ever - I do remember a conversation at the time about copyright and the name of the pub. Among my friends there is a huge amount of anger about this because The Hobbit has been a bit of an institution in the alternative/student scene in Southampton as long as anybody can remember.
Having said that - nobody believes that anything they can do will change this and there are probably already re-branding plans on the horizon. The best possible outcome now is that they use the massive publicity to their advantage and choose a similar style of name - I have heard "The Camelot" mentioned as a possible option (and I don't think anybody can claim copyright over the Arthurian legends). Stella - the landlady - is not an idiot, I'm sure she's looking at all options. But from a legal case it's pretty clear where the law stands and there is no fighting that.
should i be warning the landlord at my local? the middle earth tavern in whitby.
Blazing Spiders
The Hobbit, if the title of the book, is not copyrighted. And a trademark only covers use in a similar trade. If it's "Hobbit" as in the name of the fictional race, then it's not copyrightable either.
About 30 miles down the road from Southampton is the town of Bournemouth, which until a few years ago had a lovely pub right in the centre called the Tap and Hobbit. It was so named because Tolkien and his wife used to holiday in Bournemouth, always staying in the same rooms (the kept separate rooms!) at a hotel that is still standing today (about half a mile from the Tap).
The pub closed (not sure why, probably nothing to do with litigation-happy asstunnels) and was replaced by a Tapas bar. If I ever win the lottery (unlikely, since I don't buy tickets, but I figure my chances of winning aren't all that different to those of people who do buy tickets, so I might as well dream) then I plan to buy the Tapas bar and turn it back into the Tap and Hobbit. If and when I do this, Saul Zantz or whoever the fuck he is can kiss my hairy feet.
To FUCK YOU HOLLYWOOD from the former HOBBIT PUB.
I've been to this very pub several times, the atmosphere is extremely friendly, the pub has a fantastic layout and some amazing homebrew cocktails on offer that follow the fantasy theme in the name. I would go as far as to say its one of the best pub's I've ever been to. There are pictures of me on facebook drinking pints of a very bright green liquid named 'green goblin' or whatever it was called. (I think I'd forgotten by the end of the night due to how many I had!) The pub has been around for a fairly long time and this is yet again another case of American business bullying the little guy under the guise of protecting their 'IP'.
Very sad. - I implore you all to join the FB group in support of the pub if you haven't already:
https://www.facebook.com/SaveTheHobbitSouthampton
Don't forget a real person named Sam Gamgee wrote a letter to Tolkien. What are they going to do, round up people named Sam Gamgee and force them to change their names?
http://g.co/maps/9exvb
Like others here I started to lose sympathy for the pub owners when I saw they had used images from the movies in their publicity and were clearly trading on a Tolkien-based theme. However I wonder whether those suing will be asking the residents of this Essex town to change their addresses: plenty of names and places from Tolkien's Midd-earth in there (no Hobbit though) ;)
I have friends who live in Gandalf's Ride and whenever I visit I always think it must be cool to put one of these roads down as your address.
paulzaentz@zaentz.com
It might not be long until they find the one named for a specific character here in my area. The first floor has the pub called "The Green Dragon" and they carry a nice long list of exotic beers; the top floor is a nicely decorated restaurant area. I was just there on Sunday with the buds. I hope it does not succumb to the lawyers.
"Now, I doubt any of you would prefer a rolled up newspaper as a weapon against a dictator or a criminal intruder."
I take my wife there periodically for brunch (Elevensies or Second Breakfast?).
I like their pasta Carbonarra, they also have a wine tasting bar, but I've never been in that side of the building.
The Menu has some little black and white line drawings of trees and such that remind you of the shire a bit, but aside from that, there is nothing Tolkein infringing going on there. Maybe one of the salads has has a Hobbit name.
Reading the actual laws.
First, only the true creator of work can own the copyright
Second, there are specific provisions to address this situation. If somebody else created a movie (many have) or book (many have) then it would be a copyright / trademark violation, but it does not apply to everything just because of the name. A pub is in the business of selling ale, not books or movies, and since the "owners" of the copyright / trademark are not in that business, no business has been taken away. In fact, one can argue that many of those customers will go out and buy the books or rent or buy the movies because of the pub they were just in.
I hope this never happens to the Hobbit Cafe in Houston, TX http://www.myhobbitcafe.com/. They've been going since 1972 -- LONG before the movies made everyone cash crazy.
Well, I guess Bilbo's is in for it next:
http://www.bilbospizza.com/
I seem recall that Carl Sagan got some sand in his vagina after sending a C&D to some scientific team for naming their project the "Sagan." So they renamed it to "Butthole Astronomer". Think he sued them for defamation. I'm guessing he lost. Then he died. So yah I'd name it that, and nail the "Change your name or we'll sue" notice to the wall.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
From the Saul Zaents Company's website, their phone number in Berkeley, CA: 510.549.1528
You would be surprised - but yes. It is normal.
My sister has entered the lawsuit with Mad Dog Athletics because she uses the word "Aerospinning"... and MDA happened to have trademarked the word "spinning(R)". During the course of hearings it turned out that MDA lawyers in Czech Republic were sending threatening letters to publishers of Czech-English dictionaries demanding either
a) Removing the trademarked word "spinning" from the dictionary
b) Accompanying the word "spinning" with "TM" and their name as respective trademark owners.
You would be surprised but publishers are just publishers making their living out of books and nobody is really interested in having legal battle with some US companies because of one word... We know at least about 3 dictionaries that surrendered to their demands and removed the word "spinning" from Czech-English dictionary.
Well, I've got to get back to work. When I stop rowing, the slave ship just goes in circles.
is the same douche who locked up the Creedence Clearwater name and songs to the point where John Fogerty got out of the music business until his contract with them expired.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saul_Zaentz
Zaentz then sued Fogerty for infringing on his own song with 'The old man is down the Road' (and lost thank gawd)
FWIW I saw Fogerty at Outside Lands last summer and he still tears it up after all this time -plus, now he plays the Creedence songs again now that the rights have reverted.
-I'm just sayin'
i'm gonna pirate the movie
Just use the handy Telengard Tavern Name Generator:
http://www.digital-eel.com/ttg.htm
As the issue rises in the media, it is an opportunity for Saul Zaentz Company to cut a favorable deal for royalties with the pub (like a 1% of gross receipts, or 1 pound sterling annually) to turn the rotten publicity into good.
Everybody can win, as long as FEAR loses.
To be fair though, I frequented this pub as a teenager (so a weird thing to be reading about it on Slashdot) and it's in Hampshire where we don't pronounce our 'H's anyway so that could work. It's basically therefore in The Shire as well.... Though I remember it more populated with Orcs than fair maidens...
-- For evil to triumph it is enough that good men do nothing.
It's just a simple misunderstanding. See, that's not an 'o' it's the Tengwar character for the letter ure - pronounced like a 'w' but shaped just like the letter 'o' in English. Check it out: http://www.omniglot.com/writing/tengwar.htm No problem here, just put down your lawyer and back away slowly.
It is a bar so add a bar to the sign
as any mathematical text book would demonstrate
that the bar is notation for something unique and
not the same as without the bar. In some cases NOT.
Students would know that it did not refer
to the Hobbit and would also appreciate
the apparent double entendre of the BAR
(macron).
Others might paint over the word THE
and replace it with NE or a ~ to negate
Hobbit.... Or even "Not the Hobbit".
Then repaint the hat to be a Tam o' Shanter.
Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't. Mark Twain.
Just change the name to Wobbit. Or Habbit.
and still under copyright. Well done. Only 20 more years and it is out of copyright! Yay... go the stupidity that is current copyright lengths.