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'The Hobbit' Pub Threatened With Lawsuit
An anonymous reader writes "'The Hobbit,' a small pub in Southampton, England, has been threatened with a lawsuit by lawyers representing the Saul Zaentz Company in California. The pub, which has traded under the name for the last 20 years without incident, now faces closure if it does not change its name. It's yet another example of big business throwing its weight around to get its way. The pub's landlady said simply, 'I can't fight Hollywood.'"
Change name to "The Halfling". Problem solved.
#naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
Do what TSR did and name it the halfling.
Silence is a state of mime.
The Habit.
"No fear. No envy. No meanness." Liam Clancy
is to rename it as "The Habit".
TPFKATH
The Pub Formerly Known As The Hobbit
They should kickstart fund the signage and associated paperwork.
The "Fuck you Hollywood"
Here:
http://www.facebook.com/SaveTheHobbitSouthampton?ref=ts
I reject your reality and substitute my own.
It's UK copyright law. Life of the author plus 70 years.
If you aren't part of the solution, then there is good money to be made prolonging the problem
Everyone will know what it means.
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
It's an American company doing the suing.
I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
Troll?
Damn straight I'm a troll when it comes to calling out American thugishness around the world. Because you interfere in Canada, too, the same as you do everywhere.
Jackboot is the KINDEST term I could have for your government and legal system.
I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
Name it the Ten-Forward Lord Smoked Meat and Fish's Leaky Cauldron Pub and Mos Eisley Cantina of the Vulgar Unicorn.
With all the lawsuit Publicity, you'll never close. Throw in a walk-down like Cheers and a surly endangered animal smuggling bartender named Moe, and the lawyers will be your best patrons.
From TFA:
Seems a pretty clear-cut case of copyright infringement to me. Or can I open a "Mos Eisley Catina" pub, with pictures of Harrison Ford & Alec Guiness & not expect repercussions?
If you look at their website, you'll see they use likenesses of the characters from the movies in their advertising. If the pub was just using fan artwork or coming up with their own graphical material (while using the names), they may have been left alone. But they are using the faces from the movie in their own advertising and promotional material (posters, loyalty card). That's just asking for trouble.
Its not what it is, its something else.
They could always change its name to "This Pub Was Forced To Change Its Name By The Money-Hungry Cunts At The Saul Zaentz Company." The signwriting costs could be prohibitive, though.
Given that none of the Americans on this site like what these people are doing, yeah, it's trolling to call us all out for this crazy company. Or is Canada composed entirely of saints?
The Tolkien Family sued over "The Hobbit" movie & settled. Guess it was English Riding Booties doing the stomping that time.
SLOWER TRAFFIC KEEP RIGHT
The guy has been a dick forever, Just ask John Fogerty. You cannot copyright a word. And as for a trademark, one is unlikely to confuse a book/film with a pub.
....if nine of them showed up to the pub dressed as Nazgul.
And you don't think 20 years of operation just might demonstrate that it hasn't been defended in a timely fashion?
I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
Interestingly, the original edition of the Lord of the Rings is in the public domain in the US due to an error by his publisher at the time. Tolkien had to go back and make a revised edition and market it with a note on the back pleading with fans not to buy the Ace Books edition that he saw no royalties from. So presumably a similar pub in the US (e.g. Bilbo Baggins, in Alexandria, VA) is on safer ground than this one in the UK.
rage, rage against the dying of the light
Vanz can't dance, but he'll steal your money,
Watch him - or he'll rob you blind...
http://www.songfacts.com/detail.php?id=7123
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
Mr. Saul Zaentz has a long history of being a dick. Zaentz sued Creedence Clearwater's John Fogerty for plagiarizing himself (!) asking $140 million in damages, and lost.
Zaentz's perception is that he owns the 'brand' Hobbit, although he only owns screen rights.
If your idea of Nazi style jackbooted fascism is a bar being sued because they use direct images from the LotR movies in their advertising, then you're pretty well off, and really don't understand what the people that were actually exposed to fascist tyranny actually had to put up with.
I'd imagine most of their 20 years went by just fine because they weren't using movie stills in their advertising and promotional material on their public website..
http://www.thehobbitpub.co.uk/
And then explain that to everyone who asks.
I live near the Hobbit pub, it's a great place for some rock/indie/odd-music.
It's been open for years - before the movie adaptations were even considered - yes they use the some of the films pictures on some things now, but they aren't making money out of that (a loyalty card...), the pub is based on the original work, which really should be fair use by now, not this Micky Mouse bullshit long extension time copyright being pulled on something that only promotes the work!!!!
Of course they can't fight Hollywood, since they've been using stills from the movies in their advertising. Take a look at their website, that's obviously a photograph of Elijah Wood from the LOTR movies on their "One Card To Bind Them All" loyalty card:
http://www.hobbitpub.co.uk/drink-offers/
They're not fighting Hollywood since they don't have a leg to stand on. If they would have used original artwork instead of copyrighted images from a movie, I'd be on their side.
So, if it's public domain, why the fuck hasn't somebody put it on Project Gutenberg already? It should be there.
And as an enemy of copyright, I don't care HOW it lost copyright, we should seize every opportunity to take back any bit of the public domain we can.
Fuck the estate!
... Shire Art?
-- Insert witty one-liner here. --
If your idea of Nazi style jackbooted fascism is a bar being sued because they use direct images from the LotR movies in their advertising, then you're pretty well off, and really don't understand what the people that were actually exposed to fascist tyranny actually had to put up with.
First world problems: he has them.
Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
It holds all the water the lawyers can carry.
This case is not about the merits.
It's about a poor defenseless woman being outgunned in the legal arena and losing the case before it even starts because she's too broke to fight back.
Or they could pick a random name from the Völuspá, which is public domain. "Gandalf's", perhaps.
Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
Call it "The Other Tolkein's Estate"!
I know... the usual arguments apply but I'm going to reference Wikipedia anyway: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobbit
Seems to me that, as is usually the case, art owes itself to art which came before it. A name here, a concept there, whether consciously or not, no one has truly original ideas or thought on their own. There are variations and twists but it's called evolution, not creation.
This quibbling and fighting in courts represents the utter denial of what it is to be human. We learn from each other. We teach each other. We entertain each other. And to place a restriction, an ownership or a price tag on human habit and human legacy isn't just tragic, it simply denies what and who we are. And we're just about the only animal on the planet that can do what we do. It's not the use of tools. It's not even that we speak a language. It's that we can teach each other things without having to live through the entirety of human development to advance further than picking up a stick to get bugs out of a tree.
When you put any kind of limit on that, you are in direct opposition to human development. Not that anyone can really do that successfully... well, maybe they can... I once heard about some sort of dark ages which somehow wiped out hundreds or even thousands of years of human development and knowledge so I guess it's possible. But will the next dark ages be caused by the courts and copyright law? Or perhaps it will be because of a war fought defending and imposing copyright law...
...I was just thinking of how ironic it might be to be modded 'Troll...'
Trademark? Really? Does the owners of the Lord of the Rings franchise sell alcohol too? That's news to me. I wouldn't have for a moment suspected that much. Isn't the purpose of trademark supposed to defend a mark so that a similar, competing product or service doesn't get confused as another? It's kind of how Apple Computers prevailed against Apple Music... kind of.
A bit of information friend... since we became a nation of the corporation, by the corporation and for the corporation... the government/corporations (they've effectively become one and the same) and the nations people are no longer on speaking terms. Americans are way more pissed off than you ever will be, because our corporations crap on the world weekly but they defecate on us here in the states every few seconds. Please feel free to club a CEO or two. You'll win friends and garner respect here in the states.
http://codex.ultimaaiera.com/wiki/Bobbits
And put up an apostrophe, it will be pronounced the same in cockney.
the `obbit
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
Hope they never find any of the Zaphod Beeblebrox pubs in Ottawa... that would be a disaster (I have many fond memories in them, and none requiring a paper bag over my head)
I say don't drink and drive, you might spill your drink. Before you get behind the wheel just stop and think.
or the Butthead Lawyer
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
I guess that sums up how people might confuse a pub with a movie. Bad decision making on the part of the pub.
"The Land Shark Lair" would be my choice.
In the mean time we need to work on establishing the culture of boycotting any and all commercial literature or other works that do things like this. Everyone of near childbearing age needs to make a lifelong commitment to never expose their children to any of Tolkien's works, and refuse to buy products from any company that licenses those works.
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
I felt sorry for this pub until I actually went to the website. The summary would have you believe the big guys are trying to crush the little guys over a little innocent naming. Not so-- Visiting the website will immediately welcome you with faces and figures from the films, trademark and copyright infringement everywhere.
I don't feel sorry for a pub that is trying to leech from the popularity of the source material and the films. Maybe it didn't start out that way, but that's what it appears to be now.
Zaentz can't dance, but he'll steal your money
Watch him or he'll rob you blind
I was all for supporting this pub until I actually visited their website. Now I'm on the fence.
On the one hand, it seems like a trashy place blatantly abusing Tolkien IP, but on the other hand, fuck Hollywood.
I think I've decided to go with "Meh. Who gives a shit." on this one, guys.
Rename it "The Precious".
Did you see that tiny little text at the bottom of the site? It reads:
Site designed and built by frozendesigns.co.uk
Perhaps the pub should be raising some hell with them. Specifically on why they don't seem to understand the concept of building web sites using only original and/or royalty free images.
---
DRM is like antifreeze, to the MPAA/RIAA it's sweet, to the consumers it's poison.
One more reason that I will be boycotting* the movie industry until some shit really changes.
*By boycotting, I do not mean pirating as that would only give them more fuel for their legal team's endless legal fire.
If carrots got you drunk, rabbits would be fucked up. - Comedian Mitch Hedberg R.I.P. 03/30/68-2/24/05
Rename it "Fuck you, Holywood". I'm Serious. People will come because they hate the big establishment, it'll become a tourist attraction, and all the regulars will keep coming, and they get to stick it to the assholes.
Maybe that's why they aren't suing the Other Change of Hobbit, a comic and SF&F store here in Berkeley.
.: Semper Absurda
Yeah on this point I have to agree. I wouldn't mind someone calling their pub the "Mos Eisley Cantina" but if you had screenshots out of the films on your website advertising your products... Mmm... that's where you've overstepped "lovable reference" and just gotten into full blown copyright infringement.
I have two problems with this:
1. Years ago when i bought my copies of the Hobbit and the Ring series, there was a message on the back from J.R.R.T. himself, saying in effect that he had let the books slip out of copyright, but he thought it would be a nice thing if you bought the version that he had negotiated with the publishers rather than an "unauthorized" version. So what happened to change this?
My understanding of copyright law was that you could absolutely not copyright a title. So if the pub is only using the name "The Hobbit" and isn't displaying pictures of Hobbits from any source tied to the books or movies, just what is their legal claim?
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
She might do well asking the ACLU to sue her persecutors.
Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
Even if it is an American company, the courts would follow English law.
Thanks for that, all this time I was thinking:"Big bully Hollywood using lawyers for no good." Then I went to the site, that sort of looks like a Lord of the Rings fan club and thought:"Ah, shameless copyright infringement, nevermind."
Never say never. Ah!! I did it again!
To the extent that any effect exists, a pub named "Hobbit" would probably help the business of the Hollywood Corp. This is pure assholery, and the legal threat harms the franchise.
Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
The guy suing is a dick for sure, but ffs stop being a racist/anti-semite. Such comments are vastly more douchy than the crap that Mr Zaentz is pulling. Thinking that those of the Jewish faith have a monopoly on money-grubbing shows an immature world view - plenty of races and religions are just as avaricious.
It IS a timely fashion, seeing as how the movie hasn't come out yet. This is about movie merchandising, not the book. I'm not saying it is right.
It seems Zaentz, has this covered. He filed a trademark in 2011 which covers this line of business. So, he's nice and timely. Had the bar owners trademarked their drinks 20 years ago, they'd be fine now. But "Whosover files first wins", in trademark law.
I doubt that the ACLU involves itself much in British cases.
They could offer to buy the pub instead, then they could go nuts with using LOTR & Hobbit imagery for the advertising of the pub.
To do something right, you often have to roll up your sleeves and get busy.
It's one thing to tell them to take down material using stills from the films, which is a perfectly reasonable course of action. Forcing them to change their name/menu or go out of business is disproportionate.
Not to mention what was done to Dennis McKiernan.
Eventually, of course, every word in the english language will be trademarked, copyrighted (in perpetuity for Disney) and patented. We will no more be able to speak or write than a farmer is allowed to save his seed.
But I'm an optimist. I believe that before we reach the point of a DRM DNA being inserted into our brains, there will be lawyers at the bottom of the ocean. And even, perhaps, the odd titan of industry.
What's worrying is that there are a lot of pubs in England with "funny" names, which means that if one falls then there may be a massive amount of required name changes. Soon Disney will go after The Fat Duck since it infringes on their properties.
If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
I'd be more upset that they paid a company for such a shitty design...
C'mon, they've got likenesses of the film
actors all over the place. How did they think they wouldn't get sued? Maybe if they weren't passing around cards with Cate Blanchett as Galadrial, the main cast on their menus, and lord knows what else, they'd have continued to fly under the radar. How they've escaped the ire of The Tolkien family themselves is beyond me.
Also, the article only says they've been told to stop using the characters, it's not
clear they have to change the name of the joint ("The Hobbit" was a title, not one of the characters).
there is no connection between a bar called "The Hobbit" and the book or the movie of the same name
You can't honestly believe that can you? Did you watch the video?
AGAIN with the prior art!
From Wikipedia on "Hobbit":(debate away!)
"Evidence of earlier use
The only source known today that makes reference to hobbits in any sort of historical context is the Denham Tracts by Michael Aislabie Denham. More specifically, it appears in the Denham Tracts, edited by James Hardy, (London: Folklore Society, 1895), vol. 2, the second part of a two-volume set compiled from Denham's publications between 1846 and 1859.
The text contains a long list of sprites and bogies, based on an older list, the Discovery of Witchcraft, dated 1584, with many additions and a few repetitions. The term hobbit is listed in the context of
boggleboes, bogies, redmen, portunes, grants, hobbits, hobgoblins, brown-men, cowies, dunnies
In the December 2003 Oxford English Dictionary newsletter, in the "Words of Choice" section, the following appears:
4. hobbit â" J. R. R. Tolkien modestly claimed not to have coined this word, although the Supplement to the OED credited him with the invention of it in the absence of further evidence. It seems, however, that Tolkien was right to be cautious. It has since turned up in one of those 19th-century folklore journals, in a list of long-forgotten words for fairy-folk or little people. It seems likely that Tolkien, with his interest in folklore, read this and subconsciously registered the name, reviving it many years later in his most famous character. [Editor's note: although revision of the OED's entry for hobbit will of course take this evidence for earlier use into account, it does not yet appear in the online version of the entry.] "
Or at least that Peter Jackson was bussing tables or shaking his fat ass in a g-string.
This is where that "-1 nauseous" moderation would come in useful....
Even if it is an American company, the courts would follow English law.
Wouldn't be too sure, it seems the norm for british nationals to be groundlessly extradited to the US... Basically, the US says "extradite this person" and the UK seems to say "ok" no matter what.
http://blog.nexusuk.org
+1
This, despite the fact that the Other Change of Hobbit *is* operating in a field that could be considered by some to be confusingly similar. And the fact that you can't copyright a title, so only trademarks could possibly apply here, and nobody is suggesting that the trademark on the name "Hobbit" has in any way expired or is otherwise invalid.
Well one of them, I generally prefer the Shooting Star - about 200 yards further down the hill these days (as it has a better pool table). Over twenty years I have been drinking at the Hobbit. Last night a group of my friends all gathered there for a drink in the mistaken belief they could do something about this.
I don't think anybody is going to argue the film is not infringing copyright, even in the early 90s there were posters of illustrations from the book on the walls. They introduced a range of cocktails based on characters in the books (Gimli, Legolas and so on). When the films were introduced they brought in pictures from the films and hung them on the walls. They make "The Hobbit" T-Shirts. They have a life size statue of Aragorn from the movies in there. So discussions on the "hobbit" being an English word and prior art are irrelevent - they have posters and paintings from the film and book in there.
The point is that they have been called The Hobbit for a very long time and this lawsuit has popped up only because of the new film coming out. And SZC has probably been trawling the net looking for targets, I think that after the first trilogy films came and went and there was no mention of it there was an assumption things would remain the same for ever - I do remember a conversation at the time about copyright and the name of the pub. Among my friends there is a huge amount of anger about this because The Hobbit has been a bit of an institution in the alternative/student scene in Southampton as long as anybody can remember.
Having said that - nobody believes that anything they can do will change this and there are probably already re-branding plans on the horizon. The best possible outcome now is that they use the massive publicity to their advantage and choose a similar style of name - I have heard "The Camelot" mentioned as a possible option (and I don't think anybody can claim copyright over the Arthurian legends). Stella - the landlady - is not an idiot, I'm sure she's looking at all options. But from a legal case it's pretty clear where the law stands and there is no fighting that.
should i be warning the landlord at my local? the middle earth tavern in whitby.
Blazing Spiders
http://g.co/maps/9exvb
Like others here I started to lose sympathy for the pub owners when I saw they had used images from the movies in their publicity and were clearly trading on a Tolkien-based theme. However I wonder whether those suing will be asking the residents of this Essex town to change their addresses: plenty of names and places from Tolkien's Midd-earth in there (no Hobbit though) ;)
I have friends who live in Gandalf's Ride and whenever I visit I always think it must be cool to put one of these roads down as your address.
It might not be long until they find the one named for a specific character here in my area. The first floor has the pub called "The Green Dragon" and they carry a nice long list of exotic beers; the top floor is a nicely decorated restaurant area. I was just there on Sunday with the buds. I hope it does not succumb to the lawyers.
"Now, I doubt any of you would prefer a rolled up newspaper as a weapon against a dictator or a criminal intruder."
Yeah. The Bilbo Baggins is the one I was talking about. Their Bilbo burger with the english muffin bun is priceless. All their food is top quality and so are the beers. So if they get sued they would have to prove they referenced the public domain Ace edition?
"Now, I doubt any of you would prefer a rolled up newspaper as a weapon against a dictator or a criminal intruder."
I take my wife there periodically for brunch (Elevensies or Second Breakfast?).
I like their pasta Carbonarra, they also have a wine tasting bar, but I've never been in that side of the building.
The Menu has some little black and white line drawings of trees and such that remind you of the shire a bit, but aside from that, there is nothing Tolkein infringing going on there. Maybe one of the salads has has a Hobbit name.
It doesn't matter if the book is in the public domain or not since this isn't (just) about copyright. Trademarks last for as long as the owner continues to use and defend them.
Clovis
^ Clovis, look! It's that guy you are!
Spoken like true war-mongering bully.
Throw a bit of religious fundamentalism in there and you will be totally setting a good example for all those nasty islamic terrorists....
Invaders must die
I hope this never happens to the Hobbit Cafe in Houston, TX http://www.myhobbitcafe.com/. They've been going since 1972 -- LONG before the movies made everyone cash crazy.
I seem recall that Carl Sagan got some sand in his vagina after sending a C&D to some scientific team for naming their project the "Sagan." So they renamed it to "Butthole Astronomer". Think he sued them for defamation. I'm guessing he lost. Then he died. So yah I'd name it that, and nail the "Change your name or we'll sue" notice to the wall.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
That's a great idea, but if only the pub sheds most of the gratuitous LotR's imagery they're using as well. They're really unabashedly using it.
OTOH, I always felt that creates good public relations for the IP's owners, keeping their IP in the public eye and letting others participate in it - it's like free advertising.. that works both ways.
Look back up at my post, now look back down, you're on the Internet. Now look back up. I'm a signature.
You would be surprised - but yes. It is normal.
My sister has entered the lawsuit with Mad Dog Athletics because she uses the word "Aerospinning"... and MDA happened to have trademarked the word "spinning(R)". During the course of hearings it turned out that MDA lawyers in Czech Republic were sending threatening letters to publishers of Czech-English dictionaries demanding either
a) Removing the trademarked word "spinning" from the dictionary
b) Accompanying the word "spinning" with "TM" and their name as respective trademark owners.
You would be surprised but publishers are just publishers making their living out of books and nobody is really interested in having legal battle with some US companies because of one word... We know at least about 3 dictionaries that surrendered to their demands and removed the word "spinning" from Czech-English dictionary.
Well, I've got to get back to work. When I stop rowing, the slave ship just goes in circles.
is the same douche who locked up the Creedence Clearwater name and songs to the point where John Fogerty got out of the music business until his contract with them expired.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saul_Zaentz
Zaentz then sued Fogerty for infringing on his own song with 'The old man is down the Road' (and lost thank gawd)
FWIW I saw Fogerty at Outside Lands last summer and he still tears it up after all this time -plus, now he plays the Creedence songs again now that the rights have reverted.
-I'm just sayin'
To be fair though, I frequented this pub as a teenager (so a weird thing to be reading about it on Slashdot) and it's in Hampshire where we don't pronounce our 'H's anyway so that could work. It's basically therefore in The Shire as well.... Though I remember it more populated with Orcs than fair maidens...
-- For evil to triumph it is enough that good men do nothing.
It is a bar so add a bar to the sign
as any mathematical text book would demonstrate
that the bar is notation for something unique and
not the same as without the bar. In some cases NOT.
Students would know that it did not refer
to the Hobbit and would also appreciate
the apparent double entendre of the BAR
(macron).
Others might paint over the word THE
and replace it with NE or a ~ to negate
Hobbit.... Or even "Not the Hobbit".
Then repaint the hat to be a Tam o' Shanter.
Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't. Mark Twain.
Just change the name to Wobbit. Or Habbit.
and still under copyright. Well done. Only 20 more years and it is out of copyright! Yay... go the stupidity that is current copyright lengths.
So based on your logic, selling Apple iPhone branded gas stoves are legal in the USA.....
New Economic Perspectives
What language is that supposed to be?
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."