Dish Network Announces Prime Time TV With No Ads

Hugh Pickens writes "Forbes reports that Dish Network has announced a new feature called called Auto Hop for its satellite TV subscribers that will let you automatically skip all commercials for prime time television from the four major broadcast networks — when you watch programs the day after they are first aired. 'Viewers love to skip commercials,' says Vivek Khemka, vice president of DISH Product Management. 'With the Auto Hop capability of the Hopper, watching your favorite shows commercial-free is easier than ever before.' Craig Moffett says it's going to be hard for Dish to maintain good relationships with its programming affiliates when they start offering a feature intended to cut out the bulk of the affiliates' revenues. Whether the auto-skip feature can withstand legal challenge remains to be seen. 'Given the already long list of industry-unfriendly features promoted by Dish, one wonders if Auto Hop will be the final straw that provokes legal action from the broadcast networks,' says Moffett. 'We suspect Auto Hop probably uses some sort of bookmarking insertion based on automated recognition of commercial inserts (called "fingerprinting'"), which if true could certainly be argued to be a manipulation of the content stream by the distributor.'"

Comments

I work in the advertising industry

[SilverDeveloper]

I work in the advertising industry and it is outrageous how far people can go to abuse others. It isn't free to make all those good tv shows and in my opinion authors should get paid for them. Mostly this is based on advertising on TV. If you don't want advertising, go buy the DVD boxes which don't have them. But have some decency and let people get paid for their hard work. Dish Network is bunch of assholes.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[Anonymous Coward]

cry me a river.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[rev0lt]

So, what you're saying is that 30-minute long publicity WILL NOT pay for content they air (but they will still be able to afford the shows), but instead will focus on other revenue models? I can see why you are upset. Welcome to the 21st century.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[Kangburra]

I work in the advertising industry and it is outrageous how far people can go to abuse others. It isn't free to make all those good tv shows and in my opinion authors should get paid for them. Mostly this is based on advertising on TV. If you don't want advertising, go buy the DVD boxes which don't have them. But have some decency and let people get paid for their hard work. Dish Network is bunch of assholes.

Fine but don't then fill the DVD's with crap about piracy and advertising other shows, I just bought them to avoid getting the actual show I want to see in an uninterrupted format, let me have it!

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[SilverDeveloper]

Slashdot is also almost completely supported by advertising. As many users on this site block them, they have moved to more subtle advertising like paid stories on Ask Slashdot, sponsored polls and their jobs site. All you are doing is shooting yourself in the leg. Moves like this will only introduce more subtle advertising, using psychological ways like those 0.1s flashes of products in between and product placement. Is that better then? Now you at least know when you are being advertised something. Then you won't, but your mind will, subliminally.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[SuperCharlie]

Look.. if you give me free content, pay for it with advertising. If I pay you for content..or like Dish does, then cram your advertising..k?

I am old enough to remember when cable was new and shiny. At first I was..wow! Great! I pay you and I get to see shows without commercials right? Bzzzt.. no.. I get to pay you AND see commercials..how silly of me.

Personally, I would rather pay and watch 98% pure crap than "prime" content with 3-4-5 minutes of ads blaring every 10 minutes. For me..yes..I would pay for you to just go away.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[SeaFox]

This is happening only when you watch shows the day after they air. A consumer can do the same thing right now with a DVR. Simply record all the shows and watch them the next night, fast forwarding through all the commercials. Dish is simply automating the process.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[SilentChasm]

1 It's just making it convenient to do what users can already do with their DVRs anyways.

If you don't want advertising, go buy the DVD boxes which don't have them.

2. It isn't always the case that there aren't ads in the DVDs. Some are quite annoying playing before the menus and after each episode ends.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[Anonymous Coward]

GO FUCK YOURSELF.

Sincerely,
everyone who's ever watched TV ever.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[lightknight]

F*ck that noise. This isn't about being paid for hard work, this is negotiations over just how badly they can sell the customer.

If a TV network has the option of providing a show, and making $40 million off of it (ad free), or $60 million off of it (with ads), they will always choose the latter. As both the customers, as well as the eyeballs being sold (thanks guys), we have the right to tell them that it's enough. Enough of these ads, enough of the chronically shortened programming, enough of the bullsh*t where you trot out an actor earning $500,000 / episode, and tell the rest of us that the network will go bankrupt if they listened to the viewers for once in their goddamn lives.

And while we are on the topic, bring back Firefly.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[Anonymous Coward]

Better idea: how about just abolishing TV advertising. Replace it with a small levy including in existing tax collection methods - sales tax / VAT / GST.
The fund would then pay TV broadcasters according to ratings. Costs would go up for the stations though, as they'd have to put maybe 55 minutes of programs in an hour instead of 40. Most of the ads are just trying to convince us to buy one brand of crap over another. They serve no purpose to society. Just an annoyance, and an outdated funding model which cannot last much longer anyway.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[TheInternetGuy]

Exactly, how is it abuse to skip commercials on recorded content? I do understand that that the producers need money, but you can not force viewers to watch content they do not want to see. Do you want to make it illegal to go to the loo during the commercial break as well? Perhaps the producers could try a humble attitude and a "Donate" button instead of advertising companies?

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[Anonymous Coward]

Please. If I'm watching it the next day I'm skipping the commercials anyway. DVR has fast-forward, you know.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[rev0lt]

Slashdot is also almost completely supported by advertising.

I really don't care. Sometimes some ads are interesting. Sometimes they aren't. I have the option to turn them off, but I choose not to. I like to see what's out there, because sooner or later - if it is relevant - I will need to have an informed opinion about it. Or just dont't, and have a good motive for that. Because in IT, clients don't like to hear "I've never even heard of it" from their consultants.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[SilverDeveloper]

You can already tell them that enough is enough by not buying their services. No one is forcing you to.

And what's wrong with paying actors $500,000/episode. I am on normal wage too, but if there's demand for those actors and the price goes up there, isn't it just fair they get that? It's capitalism and business in work. Or do you think we should mandate the payments with some kind of law and force them to work?

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[Anonymous Coward]

You're not entitled to getting business. If this takes off and the industry doesn't adapt, it won't survive. It's called capitalism, and this kind of thing has happened many times before, and will definitely happen again.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[Anonymous Coward]

Shouldn't that post have been in all caps?

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[PhrstBrn]

You can do it the same day, even with a DVR. You don't have to wait that long. A 30 minute TV show is ~21 minutes long once you cut out the commercials. Wait 8 minutes after the show normally starts, and you can watch your show commercial free, with a minute of fast forwarding.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[Artea]

This is happening only when you watch shows the day after they air. A consumer can do the same thing right now with a DVR. Simply record all the shows and watch them the next night, fast forwarding through all the commercials. Dish is simply automating the process.

Be careful, if they knew that, there will be a push to make such features on devices illegal, or every time you press fast forward it inserts a 30 second advertisement!

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[stephanruby]

I work in the advertising industry...

Not for long.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[Anonymous Coward]

I work in the go fuck yourself industry and it is outrageous how far people can go to abuse others. It isn't free to view all those shitty adverts and in my opinion viewers should get paid for them. Mostly this is based on conveniently skipping the shitty adverts on TV. If you don't want to go fuck yourself, go get a job which isn't full of lies. But have some decency and let Dish Network pay viewers in convenience for their strictly rationed time. The advertising industry is bunch of assholes.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[Anonymous Coward]

This would have the same problem as the way the US pays for roads. Everyone has to pay for road construction out of income tax, which them makes it seem very to cheap to drive once the roads are already built. Then everyone bitches that trains are expensive (Which is just because they are less subsidized). Point being - People who don't drive shouldn't have to pay for people who have 3 cars.

Moving on...

If they charged tax for everyone to pay for TV shows, then taxes would go up quite a bit for everyone, even people who don't watch much TV.

I think that for most things, price should be approximately related to use as much as reasonably possible. (I'm not suggesting you charge people for the street lamp electricity by tracking how much they go out at night or anything...)

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[anglico]

The problem isn't just the commercials, it's all the annoying ads in the lower corners of my screen, advertising all the other shows they produce. It distracts from the show I'm watching, and sometimes it blocks something I needed to see that was relevant to the show I was supposed to be focusing on. The networks are shoving more and more advertising down our throats and people are tired of it. Personally I would rather product placement, as long as it isn't the 1950's cheesy way, I'd rather see a Budweiser than a can that says "beer". The 'stars' and the executives are all paid too much and the majority of shows suck. Let's not even talk about reality shows, I really doubt those cost a fortune to make. So I will restate the earlier post "cry me a river"

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[nprz]

then taxes would go up quite a bit for everyone, even people who don't watch much TV.

I agree.

I don't even have a TV. I'd be pretty pissed having to pay a tax so we don't have advertising. Even if that were the case, they'd just put advertising directly in the show (more than they already do). It would feel worse than watching an infomercial.

I'm also surprised that Canadians don't complain about having to pay a CRIA tax on recordable CD/DVD media. Over my childhood I bought so many spindles of CDs and DVDs for backups or moving data (high bandwidth, high latency). I'd be pissed if that was making lawyers rich.

How about people just pay for what they use and stop offloading it to the government to manage.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[Anonymous Coward]

I wouldn't mind the Slashdot ads if they used girls with big boobs in bikinis to get your attention.
It would be fair: the advertiser gets my attention, and I get to see something beautiful.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[superdave80]

What's the difference between skipping the commercials via DVR or...

...changing the channel, or...

...getting up to get a snack, or...

...getting up to go to the bathroom, or...

...watching the ads that you guys put together nowadays that are funny and entertaining, but forgetting what the ad is actually for because modern advertisers seem to forget to mention the product until the last half second of the ad, or...

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[Anonymous Coward]

It's capitalism and business in work.

A business, Dish, found a better way to deliver a service in order to make more money than their competitors. You don't like that because you are part of the old way. Who is anti capitalism/business here? If I am legally allowed to skip adds via a button then you go ahead and add product placement. I don't mind at all when someone is drinking a Pepsi in a show I watch, or demanding someone "Pass the Pringles" during a joke about stress eating, as long as it isn't painfully obvious, no posing for the camera just to show me the product please. I have seen a few of these bits lately that I thought were funny, and I assume were paid for, but they didn't hurt and in some cases were solid jokes.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[tlhIngan]

Moves like this will only introduce more subtle advertising, using psychological ways like those 0.1s flashes of products in between and product placement. Is that better then? Now you at least know when you are being advertised something. Then you won't, but your mind will, subliminally.

Well, TV shows have started countering the DVR trend of skipping ads by doing more and more product placement. Where there was once a generic computer, there's a Dell or Apple. A cellphone, a Sprint Android or an iPhone. Generic canned drink? Now cola.

Hell, networks have even gone to the point of editing the TV episodes and adding their own product placements where the first time, there was none. It will also only be a matte rof time when you'll have audio ads interspersed with the TV show. Or we'll have scroller ads that take the bottom 10% of the screen (the TV networks are getting particularly obnoxious about this).

Hell, I'm betting once stuff like this gets common, the studios will figure out how they work and do the necessary distortions to mess up the programming - have the DVR on ad-skip mode? It'll automatically randomly skip through the programming for you, courtesy faked distortions the machine interprets as ads.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[Nursie]

You make money out of making everyone else's life worse, but only just enough that they still put up with it to watch their shows.

People are learning how to cut you out of their lives. I hope your whole industry shrivels and dies as a result of people realising that you and people like you just make everything worse, insinuating yourselves into every aspect of human life and communications like a plague, a plague of serial liars.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[Anonymous Coward]

I work in the advertising industry

I might have took your comment more seriously if hadn't prefaced it with that. Even saying "I work for a major broadcast network" would have sounded less needy.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[SeaFox]

Be careful, if they knew that, there will be a push to make such features on devices illegal, or every time you press fast forward it inserts a 30 second advertisement!

Nah, they'll never think of doing that.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[Anonymous Coward]

Butthurt advertiser is butthurt.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[Anonymous Coward]

Except subliminal advertising doesn't work.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[Zuriel]

The TV shows on The Pirate Bay will have all the obnoxious shit cut out, once again giving pirates a better product than paying (ad-watching) customers.

This is the Internet age. You only need one bored nerd to manually cut ads, crop video, edit the soundtrack and start a torrent.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[lightknight]

Indeed. Tell them to pull a HBO (paid programming), and to unbundle channels.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[GumphMaster]

No, it is not free to make TV shows but the end broadcasters pay the producers to make them in order to fill broadcast hours and provide a vehicle for their revenue earner: advertising. The broadcasters are in turn paid for the insertion of advertising material into their transmission, and by re-broadcasters. This advertising is sold on the basis of the number of eyeballs that could potentially see it since there is no accurate measure of the number of people that actually see it (live or delayed), and even less of a measure of those that actually absorb it. That potential number of people is completely unchanged by this action which is, ultimately, no different to people using DVR skip, making a coffee, surfing the 'net, or having a pee during the advertising breaks. Everybody in that chain is fully paid by the time of broadcast except the end viewer who, understandably, does not feel in the slightest guilty for not watching the advertising material. This is also the end viewer who, having paid for a DVD box set, would still be bombarded by unskippable warnings containing half-truths that effectively call them a 'thief' and, in many cases, advertising. The industry is, as usual, trying to have its cake, eat its cake, and have a piece of everyone else's cake too.

If a legal challenge is mounted on the basis that creating external metadata, such as an index of positions in the stream, is a breach of copyright in the stream then it will be one of the more memorable attempts to overreach copyright law. If such a thing were allowed to stand then the act of creating an index card for a DVD library listing the length of the feature and extras would be a copyright violation, bookmarking a position in a movie your are watching would be a violation: clearly an idiotic proposition and counter to the public interest. I suspect, as usual, copyright holders will attempt to circumvent the actual copyright law by using contracts to do an end-run.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[Anonymous Coward]

Uh-huh. I suppose that's why I'm always rushing out to buy shit I see in commercials--oh, wait: I'm not.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[glodime]

No one is forcing NBC to sell to Dish network.

But I might choose to only watch NBC via the Dish network if Dish provides it without commercials.

BTW, I already have car insurance via a mutual insurer that doesn't advertise; they simply have the best rates; everyone in my state knows it. So, it seems I don't need most of what the advertising industry is selling.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[SeaFox]

Consider that Hulu gives people access to shows when they want to watch them just like a DVR, except you can't skip the ads.. Yet we keep hearing about the television networks, the very people who own Hulu, and the very people who want to make money from advertising inserted into their content, doing things with the company that will drive people away and kill it.

Don't know if you work in the television advertising industry, but if so have you ever thought of asking your clients "Do you guys really have a clue?"

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[Anonymous Coward]

Experience shows that whatever you can throw at us, you throw at us anyway. If we didn't filter ads, you would still add the product placement and whatever else you can come up with to create revenue, because more money is always better.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[Libertarian001]

No, I'm not going to go look it up and yes, I'm sure it's been asked before. What, exactly, am I paying a monthly subscription for?*

*Actually, I'm not. I just moved and I elected to not transfer my service. There are better things to do with my time than watch TV. That includes reading Slashdot. Let that sink in. Posting on message board is a more worthwhile endeavor than watching the tripe spewing from Hollywood. You, personally, have made it such a miserable experience that I'm simply no longer willing to put up with your garbage. So, on a personal note, thank you.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[EdIII]

Desperation is a stinky cologne.

Nobody is going to have any sympathy for you because you need to realize one simple immutable fact:

nobody wants the shit you are responsible for making. nobody. everybody hates you with the burning passion of a thousand suns. the only way for you to get advertisements in front of people is by the lack of choice .

Therefore, you are already deeply unethical in any attempt to sue somebody out of existence like Dish Network that is providing what the customer wants (Sonicblue), and deeply disturbed and sociopathic with your successful attempt to ruin television with disruptive overlays during programming.

The only way you can survive is by continuing to make sure the consumer has the lack of choice, and then you sit there with the unmitigated gall to complain when choice is provided.

Get a clue. Get a different career. I suggest Ambulance Chasing Lawyer or the guys who provide fresh meat for Hostel-like entertainment packages in Eastern European countries. You know.... something with a little more heart.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[mister_playboy]

Slashdot is also almost completely supported by advertising. As many users on this site block them, they have moved to more subtle advertising like paid stories on Ask Slashdot, sponsored polls and their jobs site.

A very curious assertion coming from a brand new user... I have to assume you are actually a /. employee.

This also makes me wonder if all the "shills" popping up here aren't actually a creation of the site owners themselves, trying to increase traffic via controversy.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[Anonymous Coward]

people that are in advertising are scum

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[Jason Earl]

There are plenty of sites that are happy to use boobs to sell you stuff. Part of the reason that I don't turn of the ads at slashdot is that I don't need boobs to be interested in the things that tend to get advertised here.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[Anonymous Coward]

Keep in mind that won't free you from ads. Too many movies are nothing but a lengthy ad for half a dozen products, as I'm sure you must've noticed.

Advertising is unethical. They can try to trick people in believing it isn't, but helping sell crap that people don't need to people who barely have the money to pay for it is unethical, if not criminal.

By the way, if anyone here is in marketing or advertising...kill yourself. Thank you. Just planting seeds, planting seeds is all I'm doing. No joke here, really. Seriously, kill yourself, you have no rationalisation for what you do, you are Satan's little helpers. Kill yourself, kill yourself, kill yourself now. Now, back to the show. Seriously, I know the marketing people: 'There's gonna be a joke comin' up.' There's no fuckin' joke. Suck a tail pipe, hang yourself...borrow a pistol from an NRA buddy, do something...rid the world of your evil fuckin' presence. - Bill Hicks.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[spire3661]

Isnt the majority of highway funding paid out of gasoline tax?

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[z0idberg]

I am old enough to remember when cable was new and shiny. At first I was..wow! Great! I pay you and I get to see shows without commercials right? Bzzzt.. no.. I get to pay you AND see commercials..how silly of me.

This exact issue pisses me off immensely. When "pay" TV first came to Australia one of the big selling points was you pay for the service and get sport and show without ads.

Then they realised that TV shows without ads only went for about 22 minutes so didn't fit together too well. So ads for other pay tv programs started to get wedged in. Then ads for other pay tv channels. Now its a free for all with more ads than show.

Now generations growing up with advertising filled pay TV from the start of their TV watching days think this is fine and the norm. When all I see is a massive double-pay.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[solidraven]

It's still very easy for software or hardware to detect such tricks. Remember what they tried with their analogue content protection system in the day for DVDs? You can't exactly call that a huge success, and that's considerably more tricky to eliminate than what you're suggesting now.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[spire3661]

Further, highways are important national infrastructure, beyond YOUR personal use, bu alsot necessary for the functioning of the nation. So yes its fair for someone who walks everyone to pay the same amount of income tax on highway funding as the person who owns 3 cars ( who can only drive one at a time mind you)

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[Anonymous Coward]

Thanks for reminding me I need to install ad blockers on some family laptops when i visit for the holiday coming up

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[GodfatherofSoul]

Are you fucking insane??? The pirates don't have a "product." Are pirates producing TV shows now? No, they're splicing out a few minutes of a TV show that you're only getting to see anyway because the rest of us are sitting through those commercials.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[andydread]

This is happening only when you watch shows the day after they air. A consumer can do the same thing right now with a DVR. Simply record all the shows and watch them the next night, fast forwarding through all the commercials. Dish is simply automating the process.

Be careful, if they knew that, there will be a push to make such features on devices illegal, or every time you press fast forward it inserts a 30 second advertisement!

Why in the world would congress want to make such features illegal?

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[kiddygrinder]

since when do dvds not have advertising.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[Anonymous Coward]

I prefer big boobs out in the open.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[Anonymous Coward]

The pirates are supplying a market for goods. Those goods may be declared illegal by the political masters, but it does not stop them from being goods.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[Anonymous Coward]

You obviously support Obama's gay marridge stance.

good for you.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[Anonymous Coward]

lol kill yourself. advertising is a fucking plague.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[Pentium100]

If you don't want advertising, go buy the DVD boxes

... and sit trough unskippable ads.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[zmollusc]

I agree that people should get paid for all the hard work they put in creating adverts, but you must realise that your industry is paid for by the advertisers and those advertisers make money by selling products.

Scenario one: I watch TV and (by various means) skip the ads, then go shopping and may buy products whose companies have paid the advertising industry $millions .

Scenario two: I watch TV and have to see ads, then go shopping and avoid products whose ads I have seen because I associate them with pushy jerks who interrupt the shows I like.

Take the money, make the ads, let me avoid the ads and it will all work out.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[ThePeices]

"Are you fucking insane..."

Dude, calm down. He is not fucking insane, he is taking it slowly and has not yet reached the sexual relations stage with insane.

They have barely reached the kissing stage.

Its not a race. What are you... jealous or something?

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[Anonymous Coward]

SUPPOSEDLY once upon a time it was all our paid tv fees what paid for all that shit when we moved to cable back in the 70's and 80's BECAUSE it had no commercials. And then you ad assholes got greedy again. (suprise suprise) and now we have more commercials now than ever. AND pay for cable. Then it was sattelite tv we paid an arm and leg for. And that had no commercials. Once again that didn't last long at all. And now all channels are jam packed full of more commercials than ever.

Just admit you assbags are greedy. No money will ever be enough to 'pay' for tv.

And now look what people like you have done to the internet. Turned the greatest medium ever invented into yet another commercial with some content.

I personally hate you and wish you were dead. advertising and marketing people make the world a worse place. you are leeches on the asshole of society. you produce nothing. you serve no useful purpose at all. IF YOU ALL DIED TODAY NOBODY WOULD CARE TOMMOROW!

Please do the world a favor and either find a new line of work. Or at least shoot yourself in the head. You can not justify what you do to anyone whos not also a greedy fuck useless waste of space.

I'm serious. Drop dead asshole. Improve the world.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[SeaFox]

Cable companies are just distributors, not show producers, yet they're always referring to their pay-TV as a "product". How is that any different than pirates offering the same "product" as television without ads delivered over the Internet for free?

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[Pentium100]

Product placement does not annoy me. Actually, the reverse annoys me - covering the manufacturer logo with a sticker or something like that.

Also, ads do not really annoy me ... the first time. After that, I do not want to see that ad ever again and if I do, I get annoyed really quickly, because i hate this kind of repetition. Watching an ad once can be informative - I may find out about a product that I did not know before, but the second time is annoying.

This once happened with my ISP - whenever I call support (because the connection is down, so I'm already ticked off) the operator offers their digital TV service which I do not want, I of course decline. However, once the ISP called me to ask my opinion about the "calling support experience", so I told them (politely) that the operator was polite and solved the problem OK, but that it is pointless to continue to offer the service to me - if I declined 5 times already the probability that I will decline the 6th time is really high and I already know that the service exists, I just do not want it. I did not receive that offer since. I call support, they log the problem and that's it.

Also, I just record TV shows on VHS and can then fast forward trough the ads - no need to rely on the software (detecting ads is kind of like detecting spam - not that easy for computers to do) and the VCR can fast forward smoothly (and I don't need to buy a DVR and the tapes last longer if I want to keep what I recorded).

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[umghhh]

informed opinion based on commercials? You must have been brainwashed. I admit that watching commercials is more entertaining that the crap the dish serves you anyway so turning them off is not really helpful. Then again I hardly watch TV because it pisses me off when my wife jumps to another channel during commercial break. When she is not there and I am bored with the crap being served n-th time during a show I wanted to see I turn on my sport watch and do interval training. You sweat a bit and you did something for yourself. You can of course go for a beer but if you do that every break you cannot drive next day....

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[million_monkeys]

Or we'll have scroller ads that take the bottom 10% of the screen (the TV networks are getting particularly obnoxious about this).

I don't know who decided those were a good idea. I don't really mind commercials, but blocking part of the screen while the show is on is obnoxious. And anytime a show has dialogue in a foreign language, they put the translation at the bottom of the screen - where it's blocked by an ad reminding me about some stupid show or special. I don't know why they think the best way to get me to watch some other show on their network is to ruin the show i'm currently watching on their network. My sympathy for networks is pretty low because they pull stunts like that.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[Mr. Slippery]

I work in the advertising industry...

Bill Hicks would say,

By the way, if anyone here is in marketing or advertising...kill yourself. Thank you. Just planting seeds, planting seeds is all I'm doing. No joke here, really. Seriously, kill yourself, you have no rationalisation for what you do, you are Satan's little helpers. Kill yourself, kill yourself, kill yourself now. Now, back to the show. Seriously, I know the marketing people: 'There's gonna be a joke comin' up.' There's no fuckin' joke. Suck a tail pipe, hang yourself...borrow a pistol from an NRA buddy, do something...rid the world of your evil fuckin' presence.

I wouldn't go quite that far, but I'll point out that since you work for an industry that is Pure Concentrated Evil, no one here gives a damn what you have to say.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[Mr. Slippery]

If they charged tax for everyone to pay for TV shows, then taxes would go up quite a bit for everyone, even people who don't watch much TV.

You're already paying that tax. When you buy a Coke or a Ford or a Dell, part of the price you pay goes to buy advertising to convince you to by more Coke or Fords or Dells. Even those who don't watch TV, but by Cokes or Fords or Dells, pay this tax. It would be more efficient, and subject us all to far less attempts at mind control, to fund TV with an honest tax than the stealth one provided by advertising.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[Anonymous Coward]

You're a man, and you do "exercise in front of your TV" programs?

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[gagol]

If the practice get standardized, we can just install black cardboard on the bottom 10% of our screens!

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[SuricouRaven]

You mean Macrovision? That's been around since the days of the VCR. It's always been a minor annoyance for home users, but anyone who can solder to veroboard would have no problem making a device to remove the macrovision protection. So it never really deterred pirates at all. The only people it could have worked on were those who rented tapes and made a personal copy for their collection, but weren't concerned enough to go and buy a macrovision remover. Widely available, even though quite illegal post-DMCA.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[Anonymous Coward]

Even more amusing is that Dish Network sold a DVR that does just that. No subscription required. Still loving my DTVPal DVR.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmm, maybe you could find a productive job?

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[SuricouRaven]

Slight modification to improve the plan: Don't just add it to general taxes. Instead, make it a tax that applies only to those households which own a television. That's how us brits fund the BBC, and it works very well here. Lots of money is raised, but at the same time people who don't watch TV don't feel offended that they are being forced to pay for someone else's entertainment.

The system does face one recent threat though: With a lot more people watching programs on iPlayer and the internet replacing TVs, there is a risk that licensing for TVs as a seperate device may become ineffective.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[isorox]

I work in the advertising industry and it is outrageous how far people can go to abuse others. It isn't free to make all those good tv shows and in my opinion authors should get paid for them. Mostly this is based on advertising on TV. If you don't want advertising, go buy the DVD boxes which don't have them. But have some decency and let people get paid for their hard work. Dish Network is bunch of assholes.

DVDs aren't available for months, perhaps years, after the broadcast. When you do get them, you're forced to sit through trailers and copyright warnings.

In the UK, Sky have realised that people don't want to be spoiled about this weeks episode online, so now broadcast prime time shows within 72 hours of U.S. airings, and cinemas usually release at the same time.

In the 90s I used to buy DS9 epsiodes on tape, for $10/episode. Provide the opportunity and people will buy your product.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[SuricouRaven]

Whenever the ad for Go Compare comes on in this house, everyone tries to pounce the remote and hit mute.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[Anonymous Coward]

Why does every fucking body believe they deserve to get rich off making fucking entertainment or selling more shit people don't need? I mean holy fuck, everyone who can play three chords or hold a video camera steady has this massive sense of entitlement, despite doing NOTHING OF FUCKING VALUE.

For fuck sakes, go do something productive and actually contribute, and if nobody wants to give you money for it then you're entitled to whine. Until then, SHUT THE FUCK UP.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[philip.paradis]

The alternative explanation is that he's getting his needs met on a regular basis by an attractive woman. How's your sex life these days?

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[Anonymous Coward]

I work in the advertising industry and it is outrageous how far people can go to abuse others.

I agree. You advertisers and your abuse is sickening, and your sense of entitlement is down right disgusting.

It's your fault porn popups result from visiting "family safe" news sites, why professional teachers get fired for viewing it, and are the reason piracy exists. If you all died over night, the world productivity output would increase by an order of magnitude and all of the worlds problems would disappear.

I pray you die in a horrible wreck of an accident on the way to work soon, you more than deserve it for all the pain and suffering you caused the world.

But have some decency and let people get paid for their hard work.

Then get a fucking job you talentless bum!
Stop passing laws to steal my hard earned money to pay for your "hard work" that I never purchase or use or watch.

I sold off my TV long long ago due to you personally and everyone like you. Stop thinking you are entitled to my money still.

Again, fuck off and die.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[Sqr(twg)]

If you don't want advertising, wait a year, then go buy the DVD boxes which don't have them.

FTFY

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[samfisher5986]

Where do you get DVD's without ads on them? Most come with ads, some of them very long.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[Big Hairy Ian]

Personally I object to paying a subscription just so Rupert Murdoch can force adverts down my throat. If the channel is free I have no problems with the verts but when I'm paying for it you can **** right off!

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[Anonymous Coward]

I rank pimps, whores, and drug dealers far far FAR above marketers and advertising people in the grand scheme of respect in the universe.

They are at least providing something people WANT.

You however... Please die. (no thats not a troll, being shocking to get a response, or any other such thing. I actually wish you were dead. I'm 100% sure the world would improve.)

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[solidraven]

They actually added the same system to DVDs for some reason. Assuming that it'd still work.
The thing is, no matter what they'd try, its always a minor annoyance. It's easy to detect fake frames.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[Anonymous Coward]

Please watch this and follow the advice given

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDW_Hj2K0wo

Brought to you by Bill Hicks

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[The Infamous Grimace]

I'm all for advertising to pay for content. I have the option here on Slashdot to disable advertising, but have chosen not to because it's unobtrusive and helps fund a site I otherwise use for free. The problem with your line of thought is that with DishTV and it's ilk I pay twice for content - once on my monthly bill and once by having to watch the commercials that support free broadcast tv. All DirectTV seems to be doing is acknowledging this; can't say I'm sorry if it makes it harder for you to effectively bill me twice for content.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[xenobyte]

Ads on the Internet were interesting 10-15 years ago... Small static banners advertising stuff that might even be relevant for a student/nerd like me at that time. Today they lie ("You have won!", "You may be at risk..." etc.), flash, jump, shake, slide over content etc. and that beyond obnoxious. I now block it all and it's their loss. If they behaved I probably wouldn't be so likely to do it. The so-called 'targeted advertising' simply doesn't work - for me at least. Whenever I happen to unblock ads or surf from other machines, the ads are all over the place, usually thinking I'm either a pregnant woman or a handyman, both of which are unbelievably off the mark.

I also block telemarketers and paper ads in my mailbox, using relevant signup services.

Ads on TV are even worse. Once in a full moon someone makes a good or funny television ad, but they rarely stand the test of being repeated 6-10 times each hour...

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[mcneely.mike]

The alternative explanation is that he's getting his needs met on a regular basis by an attractive woman. How's your sex life these days?

Probably as good as his spelling! Marridge???? Seriously???

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[Raenex]

Ads on the Internet were interesting 10-15 years ago... Small static banners advertising stuff that might even be relevant for a student/nerd like me at that time. Today they lie ("You have won!", "You may be at risk..." etc.), flash, jump, shake, slide over content etc. and that beyond obnoxious.

Sorry, but even back then they were obnoxious. There was like maybe a year of ads that were like you describe, then it quickly degenerated into crap "Punch the monkey!" type ads, animated images, flash animations, pop-ups, pup-unders, and sound. By 1999 it was already a cesspit.

Whenever I happen to unblock ads or surf from other machines, the ads are all over the place

Same here. The unfiltered Internet is always a shock to me.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[SuricouRaven]

They did, for two good reasons. Or more precisely, they put a 'use macrovision for this bit' flag on DVDs and required (via the CSS licence) that all players macrovision-protect the output if that flag is set.

Firstly, because DVDs came out long before DVD-recorders. At the time, the only way for a home user to record was on VCR. Requiring macrovision meant no renting DVDs and making tapes from them, or copying DVDs to tape to give to friends. Completly useless on expert pirates, but enough to deter the casual semi-technical pirate before file sharing took off. There was a downside to this, though: A lot of older TVs didn't have AV inputs, and DVD players don't usually have RF outputs. With macrovision making it impossible to just use a VCR as the interface between the two, a lot of people had to spend substantial money replacing old televisions just so they would be able to function with the DRM. A trend-setter there!

Secondly, macorvision was (and still is) the de facto way to mark a video signal as do-not-copy. A lot of equipment, even when there is no technical reason, will refuse to record if it detects macrovision in the signal. Things like PC video capture cards.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[Anonymous Coward]

Are there ever enough boobs in this world? (though I fully support other target groups right to have ads tailored to their specific preferences)

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[azalin]

well played

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[Adrian Harvey]

Even if that were the case, they'd just put advertising directly in the show (more than they already do). It would feel worse than watching an infomercial.

The system in the UK also includes a ban on Product placement and other advertising in-show. I think they've eased up a bit now, but when I was a kid the cartoon "Top Cat" was retitled to "Boss Cat" because there was a local brand of cat food called "Top Cat". (Yes, they actually edited the title sequence, badly). The gang still called him TC though, which would have been confusing if I had actually thought about it.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[Anonymous Coward]

Point being - People who don't drive shouldn't have to pay for people who have 3 cars.

What point is that? Who cares if I have 100 cars. I can only drive 1 at a time. Not sure what your point of adding that line was.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[azalin]

Maybe someone should set up some kind of advertisement rating and karma collecting website. The people could adjust (even temporary) their shopping habits accordingly. There should be a price to pay for obnoxious crap. The site wouldn't even need to have an impact on sales if it simply went popular enough, no one would want to be on the wall of shame. The problem would of course be, that I wouldn't want to buy most of the stuff in the first place. But there is a solution to this: guilt by association. I'm not sure if it would be better to target other products of the company ( rather wide choice for Kraft, PG etc) or rather other products advertised by the same advertisement company. Shouldn't be to difficult to map out the connections and give the consumer a choice.
There need to be an incentive for interesting quality ads and a price to pay for brainfarting into our collective faces. </rant >

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[iter8]

I work in the advertising industry and it is outrageous how far people can go to abuse others. It isn't free to make all those good tv shows and in my opinion authors should get paid for them. Mostly this is based on advertising on TV. If you don't want advertising, go buy the DVD boxes which don't have them. But have some decency and let people get paid for their hard work. Dish Network is bunch of assholes.

The ad and TV industry only has itself to blame. The amount of advertising minutes in typical hour show keeps increasing. Flip around channels at random and you have a much higher chance of landing on an ad than program content. I pay Netflix and Amazon to watch shows rather than put up with constant interruption at key dramatic moments by loud and annoying ads. Dish seems to want to give their customers what the customers want. Maybe the ad and TV industries should try and treat viewers with a bit more respect and they would get a bit more respect in return.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[Anonymous Coward]

No, he'll still be here creating new accounts every other day "advertising" for the companies that pay him. Of course he's going to speak up for commercials... that's what he is. (He in this post could also be she, or they.)

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[TrekkieGod]

0.1s flashes of products...Now you at least know when you are being advertised something. Then you won't, but your mind will, subliminally.

Someone in the advertising industry should know that that particular type of subliminal advertising has been proven in every experiment to not work. If its too fast for the viewer to notice consciously, he has not noticed it period. So be my guest and waste your client's money.

Moves like this will only introduce more subtle advertising, using...product placement. Is that better then?

YES. A thousand times yes. Product placement can even make a show BETTER. Ever seen a character in a movie order a "soda" at a restaurant? Or walk into a bar and tell the bartender, "give me a beer"? That has always annoyed the crap out of me. If you do that in real life, you'll be asked, "what beer do you want, moron?"

Does it bother me that in Spider-Man, Parker pulled a can of Dr Pepper with his web while practicing? No, I have cans of soda around in my room, I'm not weirded out that Parker drinks that particular soda. I watch tv shows and see that prop departments make cereal boxes and soda cans with fictitious brands that have a similar look to real brands. Why instead of wasting money just not get paid to display the real stuff?

It's like the difference between those annoying flash ads and the google texts ads. The tv ads are like the flash ads. They block the content you want to see, are loud and obnoxious. The product placement is just there in the background, and you get to continue watching your show, like the google text ads are, just to the side in the sidebar. The first type, I will block every time. The second is absolutely fine with me.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[ethorad]

Well, on average there's one boob* per person - surely that's enough?

(I'm excluding moobs here)

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[Hentes]

Product placement is already a reality, and I don't think there ever was hard proof that short flashes really make you subconciously want the product advertised.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[Hentes]

That was a bit harsh. Advertising is pretty much paying for the whole Internet, for example.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[Anonymous Coward]

10 mins of advertising per 1/2 show is RIDICULOUS no matter how you look at it! If people had a means of going back 20yrs (I'm sure there are recordings out there somewhere) and did a "Then vs. Now" comparison -- they would be blown away -- and not in a good way!

Additionally, cable provides sold "cable" under the promise/guise of "little or no advertising". Fast forward today and what do we have, 500 channels of nothing, sky high cable bills, highly dissatisfied customers -- and very well-to-do cable providers.

It's now wonder that people are looking for better alternatives.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[Fnord666]

You mean Macrovision? That's been around since the days of the VCR. It's always been a minor annoyance for home users, but anyone who can solder to veroboard would have no problem making a device to remove the macrovision protection. So it never really deterred pirates at all. The only people it could have worked on were those who rented tapes and made a personal copy for their collection, but weren't concerned enough to go and buy a macrovision remover. Widely available, even though quite illegal post-DMCA.

Are you sure it is illegal under the DMCA? Is there a loophole here since Macrovision was an analog technique rather than a digital technique?

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[luther349]

tv ads are the worst. its always some drug that can kill you or how to make your penis bigger. have you seen the new anti smoking ads so my god there just getting disturbing nobody wants to see that shit. and between all that you might get a funny one once and a wile. its one of the reason my tv is hardly turned on anymore.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[sglewis100]

Cable companies are just distributors, not show producers, yet they're always referring to their pay-TV as a "product". How is that any different than pirates offering the same "product" as television without ads delivered over the Internet for free?

Other than this being Slashdot, I'm not sure why you are currently modded +4 Insightful, but probably because Cable companies are licensed distributors, paying and receiving retransmission rights. They in turn recoup their cost through charging the recipients, as well as some of the ads which are local slots, available for them to sell.

The pirates do none of that, they take something, strip out the ads, and redistribute it without permission. People like it, because it's free, but that doesn't make it the same as what cable companies do.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[luther349]

yea its just sad google went back to that unannoying ads and most blockers don't block adwords. that i can live with the other junk your right i will always block it and they can cry all they like. block me because im using adblock and i go somewhere else.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[luther349]

i wouldn't that was the point in cable in the first place as you said. so im aruldy paying not to have ads but i still get them.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[Charliemopps]

When they were shutting down every manufacturing plant in my state to move the labor overseas, and I and all my friends were losing our jobs, we asked "Who's going to buy all this stuff if we don't have jobs to make money to buy it?" and did you care? Or did you just keep buying the Chinese made stuff and even advertising it on these very same channels? The rest of the country told us to go F%$k ourselves, and now it's your turn. Welcome to the club. And back then, when you told us to improve our skills, it'll all work out for the better? Yea... you were lying... but go ahead and believe it now if you'd like... but really, you're screwed.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[ancientt]

People get capitalism backwards. Who cares how much the actor gets paid, the question is whether I have the freedom to do what I want. If you mandate or cap salaries then you're limiting the ability of the consumers to support or abstain from supporting what they want.

I'm happy with actors being paid $5 million per episode if consumers are happy to support it.

I even understand what a lot of people are missing in responding to your comments. If a show is worth $1 million per episode, but broadcasters can't afford to pay that alone, then advertisers can support the cost of the show to increase the buying power of the broadcasters, making it possible for the viewer to receive entertainment that the broadcasters alone couldn't afford to offer. Even if the broadcasters could afford the full price, by offsetting the cost of offering shows with commercials, they have a larger budget to work with in other areas.

So yes, it is fair that TV shows and movies cost whatever they can sell for and actors get paid whatever they can earn, not because it is fair to them, but to do otherwise is an oppression of the consumer's ability to control the market. Yes, commercials make sense as part of a method of maximizing the entertainment value that can be offered. Yes, I have the right to choose to not watch whatever I like.

We agree in so many ways and still split on one issue. Nobody should have the right to tell me how to watch. Do you even realize you're supporting taking away my rights? I wonder exactly at what point you support suppresssing the freedom of the consumer:

• Would you support making VCRs illegal because they allow skipping commercials?
• Would you support making it illegal to own or sell any device that can fast forward?
• Would you support making it illegal for other people at my home to watch such a device?
• Would you support making it illegal for me to pay somebody else to come to my home and do it for me?
• Would you support making it illegal for me to pay somebody else to do it for me if they didn't come to my home?
• Would you support making it illegal for me to pay a company to do it for me?

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[Anonymous Coward]

So you work in the industry that,until federal laws went into effect, did everything in your power to make sure that the sound level of your commercial was at least twice as loud as the actual program, requiring me to adjust the volume everytime a movie, tv series, or even a fucking cartoon, cut to commercial ? And I'm supposed to feel bad for you and NOT skip your commercials?

Do me, and everyone else on this planet a favor, go jump in an active volcano.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[Anonymous Coward]

People like it, because it's free

Don't forget that they also like it because the resulting files Just Work, like analog cable TV did. No weird set-top boxes needed, no running hostile software, etc. Digital cable and Blu-Ray discs are an unbelievable pain in the ass by comparison.

Even with all the fees and ads aside, we're still talking about a business that goes a long way out of its way to be user-unfriendly. They take every opportunity to tell customers to stop being customers.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[Anonymous Coward]

I can access slashdot for free. We pay for cable or satellite. From my perspective, that is between dish and the tv networks they carry.

For a free service, I expect advertising. If I watch on air tv or even stream videos from a network's site, I am OK with seeing ads. I even turn on ads occasionally on slashdot. When I'm paying for a service, I don't want ads. Cable tv has gotten terrible. When I was a child, there was very little advertising on it. Now it's full of ads.

One of the few reasons I've stuck with cable is because of on demand programming. Now that comcast shows the ads in ALL the stuff and won't let you fast forward even after it kicks you out because you paused it too long, I have to look at alternatives. I'm considering dumping it for iTunes. I can buy a lot of season passes for $160 a month. Comcast wastes my time. It now takes an hour to watch a show instead of 45 minutes. That's 15 minutes less I can do something useful like work on open source or play games or even buy the products they want to advertise to me. Advertising is persuasive if it tells me about a new product or a competing product, but it's never useful if I'm not interested or I would buy it anyway. It just wastes my time.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[jedidiah]

I started blocking ads once they became annoying.

It also doesn't help that ads tend to use technologies that are an obvious security problem. If I see a page at foo.com loading anything but foo.com I tend to get suspicious quick and am highly likely to block all of that untrusted unverified 3rd party stuff.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[jedidiah]

My sex life being satisfying than you are likely to believe does NOT magically emasculate me and destroy my interest in boobs generally.

Actually, it kind of does the reverse.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[Jason Levine]

But how else are we going to learn about the new episodes of Shovin' Buddies or Slowly Rotating Black Man?

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[Anonymous Coward]

kill yourself

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[Jason Levine]

That's what my wife and I often do. Schedule a show for recording and then, about 10 minutes in, begin watching it. By the time we've caught up with Live TV, the show is over and we've only "watched" the commercials in super-fast forward mode. My DVR also helpfully returns to the show's return if I hit play after the commercials have ended and the show begins so I don't need to guess when that will be. If I see Sheldon and his play The Big Bang Theory starts playing from the end of the commercial break. (Yes, I will stop and watch a commercial if it catches my eye, but 99.99% of commercials out there don't interest me at all.)

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[virgnarus]

You own a GoDaddy domain, don't you?

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[Bigby]

Andy Cohen makes millions off of those reality shows, and then he writes a book and makes millions more.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[jedidiah]

The issue of "legitimacy" is entirely irrelevant to the question of whether or not they provide a service or a product. That just makes them a grey market or black market provider.

A lot of the stuff on cable should be in the public domain by now anyways. So the idea that you can have a "free marketplace" is really not as strange as industry shills make it out.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[vgerclover]

Sadly, I've seen product placement being used more and more on the handful of shows that I watch. I cringe every time they write in products just for the product's sake in Fringe or House. If showing or mentioning a product isn't functional to the plot, it's noise.

I don't mind a frontal shot of a Nissan car driven by the good guys, but hijacking 30 seconds of an episode to talk about the car itself of a phone NFC paying system makes me cringe.

If they start adding product placement on Game of Thrones I'll give up on TV completely.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[SuricouRaven]

The DMCA actually has a specific provision just for macrovision - to avoid trademark issues, it refers to the technology as 'automatic gain control copy control technology'. But it means macrovision. The DMCA mandates that all (analog) video recorders recognise the macrovision signal and refuse to record. Regardless of that, the DMCA's anti-circumvention provisions are not limited only to digital technologies.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[Spamalope]

Sorry, but even back then they were obnoxious. There was like maybe a year of ads that were like you describe, then it quickly degenerated into crap "Punch the monkey!" type ads, animated images, flash animations, pop-ups, pup-unders, and sound. By 1999 it was already a cesspit.

Static ads were around much longer than a year. Animated ads spread much slower than flash/pop ads when they first appeared too.

I can say that once pop-up, pop-under, new pop-up opening if you click to close the last one ads appeared I started militantly blocking all ads. When smarmy pervasive tracking started (quant, com-score) I installed blockers on all of my employers computers. When they finally pissed me off, they lost 100 systems...

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[RedHat Rocky]

Agree, the annoying ads on DURING the show is what is making me consider getting rid of Dishnetwork period.

Dish, you get that? Get rid of that crap, I might consider staying.

Selling to my eyeballs that don't want your crap in the first place: dumb. It simply pisses me off MORE towards your company and products.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[mcgrew]

I work in the advertising industry and it is outrageous how far people can go to abuse others. It isn't free to make all those good tv shows and in my opinion authors should get paid for them.

Man, this confirms my suspicions. I've suspected that to get into advertising you have to have an IQ test, and any score over 90 you fail and don't get the job.

If you're on Dish Network you're already PAYING for that programming when you pay your bill every month, and Dish takes part of what you pay them to pay for the content. You want me to pay TWICE. Fucking thieves.

When cable TV was new, part of what you paid for was the absense of commerciuals in cable shows. I don't know how people let the cable and satellite companies sneak commercials into cable programming, it's almost as bad as watching commercials in a movie theater.

I see a couple of your mentally challenged buddies from your mentally challenged industry have mod points today, because your post has no more insight than the annoying, insipid, stupid commercials you produce. "We build excitement!" What, the brakes are bad and the handling sucks? "Like a rock." What, the damned thing won't start?

If I'm watching free, over the air TV I expect there to be commercials, and I expect you tio be intelligent enough to realize that when teh commercial's on I'm taking a piss and getting another beer. I have no obligation whatever to watch your idiotic commercials. If you want ne to watch your commercials, make them worth watching. There are a few good ones; AFLAC and Budweiser come to mind. But your industry has far too many people withiout a hint of a sense of humor trying to make funny commercials. Your industry is brain damaged.

I liked slashdot a lot better when only nerds came here.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[Anonymous Coward]

I work in the advertising industry and it is outrageous how far people can go to abuse others. It isn't free to make all those good tv shows and in my opinion authors should get paid for them. Mostly this is based on advertising on TV. If you don't want advertising, go buy the DVD boxes which don't have them. But have some decency and let people get paid for their hard work. Dish Network is bunch of assholes.

Well then... how about not putting in 24 minutes (and growing ) of ads every hour or not upping the volume by 10-15 dbs (or upping the volume and compressing the sound).

Better yet, lets pay all the actors, actresses, production people and advertizing people at the same level we pay school teachers ... then we would only need 2-3 minutes per hour of commercial to pay for everything :-)

And if I'm willing to not watch a show @ its scheduled time then I should be able to watch it any way I want.

The advertizing industry is quickly sliding into the footsteps of the RIAA and MPAA ... anyone care to bet on how long before someone in Congress decides it should be against the law to NOT watch commercials? :-(

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[Korin43]

Slashdot is also almost completely supported by advertising.

Yes, but if I buy a subscription, there are no ads. Compare this to TV, where you pay >$100/mo and still get 15 minutes of ads for every hour of show. What bothers me isn't that they have ads, or even that a TV subscription without ads would be more expensive, it's that they refuse to offer an ad-free experience *at all*.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[Anonymous Coward]

Slashdot receives its ad revenue partly because of eyeballs drawn to the comments its users make. I think many users (those that post, at least) have earned the right to opt-out of ads on Slashdot.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[RobertLTux]

as someone that walks just about everywhere i have no problem paying a bit of "road tax" since i still walk on ROADS. In fact if it would pay for
1 more sidewalks
2 pedestrian bypasses
3 better street lighting
i would be happy to pay more than a bit. Besides i still benefit from delivery trucks and such that use the roads.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[Dusty101]

I believe that Bill Hicks had something to say to people in your line of work...

Seriously, though: if people have actually paid to receive the channels already, why should they be subjected to the ads as well? In the UK, the BBC is paid for by the "licence fee" and consequently, BBC viewers are not shown ads. The other UK channels are not covered by the fee, & are therefore supported by ads. That seems fair enough to me. It's basically the Google model: the advertisers are your actual customers, and the viewers are the product sold.

In light of this, I have never understood why US TV audiences were willing to pay for a cable TV service *with* advertisements. It always seemed to me to be corporate double-dipping of the worst kind. Of course, in this case, the bad guys are clearly the cable service providers.

Just don't get me started on their resistance to "a la carte" channel choices as well...

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[Dusty101]

Correction to own post: the bad guys here may also be the networks, if they're the ones that insist on the inclusion of ads on paid-for services.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[KhabaLox]

If they start adding product placement on Game of Thrones I'll give up on TV completely.

The key difference, of course, is that you pay extra to see GoT. I just wish HBO wasn't owned by Time Warner, so they could sell HBO Go to me directly without having to worry about impacting the revenue of their other channels (sold as packages to the cable/satellite companies).

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[Dusty101]

Maybe he just wants us to buy the boxes without the DVDs in them? Hey presto: no ads!

On second thoughts, they'd probably just end up shrink-wrapping ads to the outside of those as well...

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[KhabaLox]

Also, I just record TV shows on VHS and can then fast forward trough the ads - no need to rely on the software (detecting ads is kind of like detecting spam - not that easy for computers to do) and the VCR can fast forward smoothly (and I don't need to buy a DVR and the tapes last longer if I want to keep what I recorded).

Are you being serious?

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[Anonymous Coward]

The pirates do none of that, they take something, strip out the ads, and redistribute it without permission. People like it, because it's free, but that doesn't make it the same as what cable companies do.

People like it because it's easier to obtain, watch, pause or stop watching when they want to, rewatch when they want to, and all together a superior product at a lower price. One of the tenets of the free market is that competition drives down price, yet the trend coming from the TV 'industry', or as you put it, the middle men (distributors) is higher prices for lower quality products. Even in the face of a total revolution of business model, which frankly the Dish Networks proposed model is, pirates and 'free' aside, rather than compete or cooperate, traditional TV resorts to lawsuits and injunctions.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[Provocateur]

Hey, if the boobs were covered with the words NOW HIRING, I'm, all over them. There, I said it.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[Anonymous Coward]

They're offering the exact same thing, one with commercials and one without. Their "product" is the same other than this. Whatever goes on behind the scenes to make that product happen is irrelevant.

There are differences, yes. But they're still both products.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[HolyCrapSCOsux]

To be honest, I don't mind it as long as it isn't over the top. Everywhere I look IRL, there are branded products. It only gets stupid when it is blatant. E.g. Every can of soda is exactly the same and in the same orientation all the time or every computer that is NOT a DELL has the brand masked.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[PoopMonkey]

Just make friends with somebody that has HBO and have them set you up with a HBO Go account.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[Anonymous Coward]

So wrong. If anything, people are becoming more easily to influence.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[Anonymous Coward]

Tapes don't last long at all unless you take care to obtain archival quality media and treat it well.

You'll also be able to play a digital file from a hard drive for a lot longer than a strip of oxide covered plastic from the 90's.

Can you even get a new VHS machine anymore? The old ones are all slowly dying as the rubber rollers dry out.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[mcgrew]

If you mandate or cap salaries then you're limiting the ability of the consumers to support or abstain from supporting what they want.

I'll agree with you about capping, but minimum wage laws prevent you from exploiting the poor. Minimum wage laws, like all reasonable laws, are there because some people have no morals. If everyone was moral we wouln't even need laws against theft.

If a person works full time for you and still can't feed his family, you're stealing from him plain and simple. It's fraud.

Yes, I have the right to choose to not watch whatever I like.

Unfortunately you still have to pay for it. That's another reason I dropped cable, why in the fuck sholud I be forced to pay for BET and the Disney Channel and the Golf channel? Most of the shows on the cable channels are on Hulu for fee, anyway.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[orgelspieler]

I guess product placement is a little harder for things like insurance (which seems to be 50% of the advertising these days). But yeah, I've always hated it when a character reaches for a box of "Flakes o'Corn" instead of Corn Flakes. The opposite is only obnoxious when they put a lampshade on it. "Gee, Wally, I just love these Kellog's brand Corn Flakes!" *facepalm*

There's definitely a balance that can be struck. Allowing the blue oval to be seen as the good guy drives up in his Ford SUV, OK. Having another character ask him how he likes getting 37 mpg, not OK. Even in non-fiction like Restaurant: Impossible it can get annoying. "Let's load all this stuff into the back of my Lexus. Good thing it has a hands-free back door opener!" Gaaa!

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[mcgrew]

He didn't even imply that the $500,000 actor was overpriced, he's just pointing out that if you can afford to pay someone that much, you can afford to not gouge your customers.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[Pentium100]

The rollers can be replaced, just like with open reel tape decks.

Also, digital requires continuous work put into it to keep it from failing - you can't just put a hard drive somewhere for 20 years - odds are big that the drive will not spin up or fail to read anything even if it does spin up. Digital tape could probably survive longer than the hard drive, but still, it is more susceptible to degradation (that is, like digital TV, it will stop playing if the signal is too distorted, while VHS can lose color etc but still produce the image).

Video tapes recorded in the 90s play quite well.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[rev0lt]

You must have been brainwashed.

If keeping myself informed of products of potential interest for me and my clients, being able to actually evaluate and test them is being brainwashed, then I guess I am.

Then again I hardly watch TV because it pisses me off

Who is talking about TV ads? The context was about slashdot ads, not TV.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[SeaFox]

There are differences, yes. But they're still both products.

No they aren't, and that was my point. The parent post (to mine) complained about referring to the shows the pirates make available being referred to as a "product" since the pirates are not involved in the actual production of the content. I pointed out that cablecos refer to their wares as a product too they aren't doing anything in regards to production, either. For some reason it's okay to call cable TV a "product" when it's more legitimate legally. Its not a product, it's a service. You don't get a tangible item, and your relationship with the cableco is not a discrete event with the exchange of money for goods. It's a continuous providing of services for a recurring fee.

Personally I think cablecos (and banks for that matter) try to frame their services as products because to a consumer is implies a set of standards. Their offering is a set thing and you have little recourse if you do not agree with it. A service is more open to interpretation of quality and guarantees of quality by the consumer's standard. If I have a problem with a roofing job, as the person who paid for that service I can haggle and get things fixed with the contractor. But if I buy a cheap product and it fails on me. Unless it is covered by a manufactures warranty generally I am SOL. Better be wiser next time. See the difference in responsibility that's implied between the two?

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[SeaFox]

The pirates do none of that, they take something, strip out the ads, and redistribute it without permission. People like it, because it's free, but that doesn't make it the same as what cable companies do.

Both cable companies and the TV pirates are doing the same thing, they are taking a product (the finished show), repackaging it, and distributing it to consumers.

The point of my post was that neither one is offering a "product", really. They're offering a service of access to the product. But for some reason it's okay for the cablecos to use that term incorrectly.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[lightknight]

And a tip of my hat to you, kind sir.

You scored 10 / 10 on reading comprehension.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[ancientt]

I quite agree with the sentiment about paying for stuff you have no interest in watching. Offering me something I do want only if I agree to pay for something I don't isn't appealing to me. Like you, I choose to do without or find alternatives.

I suspect we even agree about the moral imperative to pay a fair wage.

I might quibble with you on the implementation that idea however. If a person works full time for you and still can't feed his family... it is better for you both to do without a job? What if you cannot hire him because the law mandates a higher wage than your business can sustain? You cannot stay in business is what happens. Now the potential employer, the potential employee and the families of both are without income. Forced unemployment is not always better in my mind.

On the other hand, it is observable that some people will seek to maximize their own profits even at the expense of being fair to their fellow man. Unregulated, some employers will opt to pay less than a fair wage. (On this point, we again agree.)

So you are left with a choice between regulation that forces unemployment or less regulation that allows greed to harm the people that most need protection. Complex problems often have simple solutions, but that doesn't make them good solutions. Minimum wage is a simple solution to a complex problem and even while it does some good, it also does some harm. It is not "plain and simple."

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[Anonymous Coward]

In the 90s I used to buy DS9 epsiodes on tape, for $10/episode. Provide the opportunity and people will buy your product.

I wouldn't pay $10/episode for my most favoritest show ever. Is there actually a market at that price point?

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[mcgrew]

If a person works full time for you and still can't feed his family... it is better for you both to do without a job?

If you only have one employee and he's working full time and you still can't afford to pay him, your business plan isn't very sound. If you have enough customers that you need another employee but can't afford to pay a decent wage, you're not charging enough for your product or service. When everyone is forced to pay their employees that minimum, the playing field is level in terms of wages, so your competetion can't undercut your prices.

Say you produce wigets and pay your three employees ten dollars an hour each. Your competitor hires his employees for two dollars an hour. You have to either cut your employees' pay or your sociopathic competetition will drive you out of business.

In short, I simply don't believe that minimum wage laws force unemployment. It simply prevents the unscrupulous from taking advantage of your morality and his workers' poverty.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[ancientt]

I could play "what if" and give counter potential examples, but honestly I feel like you make a fair point. I don't agree with it. I believe that the market for some types of service and some products isn't sufficient to support the cost of a minimum wage work force. That means that there are potential jobs that could offset unemployment, but it is arguable that those things that our society doesn't value enough to offset the good done by setting a minimum. We're coming to the same point I suspect, society determines what is a minimum value for work and for lower than that level, we pay our taxes to support those in the periods when they can't produce at that minimum level.

I think there is room for debate what the minimum value of a service or human labor is and I think you present the counterpoint eloquently. At the same time, I think it is reasonable to consider alternatives which would achieve a better result. I like the idea of a negative income tax of the sort proposed by Milton Friedman.

I think we agree that there is a reasonable minimum value for human labor necessary to preserve a desirable society. The question unresolved is how to best achieve that goal and I think that most people would agree our current system isn't the best possible. A quick read at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_income_tax#Specific_models will give you an idea what I think would be an improvement.

Agree or disagree, I appreciate a well thought out and eloquently phrased response. In a forum where people all to often fail to do so, I salute your ability to focus and present a concept clearly.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[mcgrew]

Agree or disagree, I appreciate a well thought out and eloquently phrased response.

Thank you. As to Friedman's idea of a negative income tax, I'd rather not subsidize the poor's employer. Your employer should feed you, not me. But as you say, there is plenty of room for disagreement.

Re:I work in the advertising industry

[couchslug]

"more subtle advertising like paid stories on Ask Slashdot, sponsored polls and their jobs site."

I ignore and reject those too. Fuck 'em.

They are welcome to try a paywall.

15 minutes of dead air...

[Anonymous Coward]

15 minutes of dead air for every hour of programming? Nice.

Re:15 minutes of dead air...

[Artea]

when you watch programs the day after they are first aired

Wouldn't that suggest they can use that 15 minutes for something else?

Re:15 minutes of dead air...

[jamesh]

What if they just moved the ads to the end of the show? That would suck less than having it constantly interrupted and the advertisers still get eyeballs on their content (in theory).

It's gotten to the point in Australia where the commercial channels clip the content before the ad break so for stuff like the simpsons you often don't get to hear the punchline. No wonder people download the stuff.

Re:15 minutes of dead air...

[lightknight]

The show?

Re:15 minutes of dead air...

[japhering]

when you watch programs the day after they are first aired

Wouldn't that suggest they can use that 15 minutes for something else?

How about better story lines as well as plot and character development.... oh wait, poor johnny grew up watching ads, so he can't write to save his life. :-(

The Next Thing You Know ....

[Anonymous Coward]

There will be some whiner complaining about AdBlocker on FireFox ....

licensing fees?

[bigtrike]

Doesn't Dish already pay licensing fees to the networks as well?

Re:licensing fees?

[rudy_wayne]

Doesn't Dish already pay licensing fees to the networks as well?

Exactly.

Dish pays millions of dollars a year to the networks for the "right" to carry their programs. If Dish completely cuts out commercials on every channel they carry, the networks still get money.

Re:licensing fees?

[im_thatoneguy]

Yeah I think advertising has a place: free TV.

I think it's outrageous that Dish has to *pay* local companies for the right to broadcast what the Over-The-Air companies give away for free.

The local affiliates' demands for payment for acting as essentially a beneficial service was always an unreasonable accommodation. I fully support Dish giving the local channels the giant middle finger by cutting off their revenue stream for those customers.

They can either be happy that Dish is spreading their marketing sponsored content or they can charge Dish for the rights to broadcast it commercial free. I don't see why they get to do both.

Re:licensing fees?

[ThePeices]

"If Dish completely cuts out commercials on every channel they carry, the networks still get money...."

Thats not the problem. The problem is that the networks are not getting *more* money.

Would you be happy if you were getting less money than you were getting before?

Re:licensing fees?

[SuricouRaven]

But the networks also get paid from the other side, by their advertisers. That is the purpose of a network: They are essentially the managers and middlemen that coordinate between advertisers, distributors and studios. Sometimes with co-ownership of some elements.

Re:licensing fees?

[bazorg]

aye. If they priced their product assuming they would also sell advertising time/space and then find the customer is blocking the advertising, they can be sure to be annoyed and negotiate differently next time.

Re:licensing fees?

[Monoman]

The networks won't be able to sell advertising if everyone is able to skip ads.

Maybe people wouldn't want to skip the ads if they thought the were informative, relative to their needs, and not intrusive. Perhaps the TV advertising companies need to rethink things .... perhaps not.

Re:licensing fees?

[Anonymous Coward]

The networks want to double dip. Fuck them!

Re:licensing fees?

[sglewis100]

Doesn't Dish already pay licensing fees to the networks as well?

Exactly.

Dish pays millions of dollars a year to the networks for the "right" to carry their programs. If Dish completely cuts out commercials on every channel they carry, the networks still get money.

This would lead to higher costs, of course. Right now channels make money by selling retransmission rights and ad slots. They spend money by producing shows or licensing syndicated programs. If you remove some of the income but none of the expenditures, they'll no doubt raise prices to the cable and satellite firms, who guess what - will raise rates to you!

I've lost a few channels on DirecTV for short periods of time (a couple of weeks) while they fought over retransmission rights. I'm sure that's happened to Dish as well. Yes and Cablevision went at it very publically a few years ago. I think it's safe to say the channels will want higher fees from Dish, to offset the lower ad revenue once advertisers realize a few million potential customers no longer see their ads across the board on one carrier.

Someone will pay. Either Dish customers will routinely lose local channels during drawn out negotiations, or the cost of service will go up. But I doubt your local affiliate will just lie down and say "ok, it was fun while we made money off ads, have a good one...."

Re:licensing fees?

[luther349]

they don't give it away that's the point the charge dish and cable company's to carry it at that point its no longer free.

Re:licensing fees?

[msobkow]

I wonder if they're paying license fees to TiVO as well? There had been a patent kerfuffle over the ability to skip ads with their PVR years ago, which I believe Dish ended up losing. I would think this "new feature" would step on that same patent's toes.

Personally I wouldn't trust a system to auto-skip ads. It's not like ads come with a sideband signal to indicate that they're advertising, and I have never seen an image analysis system that would be smart enough to distinguish between the content of the show and advertising.

The old TiVO version was good enough. Hit the 30-second skip 5 times when the ads start, and wait through the remaining 20 seconds or so of ads so you don't miss the return of the show.

Re:licensing fees?

[vinod4linux]

I don't understand why we pay so much for cable TV and then have advertisements forced down our throats. Like you mention, this is fine with free TV.. I can deal with advertisements subsidizing my subscription. Sure, the content providers, infrastructure providers etc. all have to get their return, however, each of them cannot be milking the consumer separately.. they have to share revenue from viewership in a way that doesn't make this ridiculously expensive. When this happens, consumers will actively look for cheaper ways to get this (hence the proliferation of internet based viewership - in many cases, this leads to piracy). Make things affordable and fair and consumers will gravitate towards such services. Anyways.. its just over-the-air free broadcasts for me.. that's free and I can deal with ads for that...

Re:licensing fees?

[im_thatoneguy]

I don't understand what you're objecting to.

1) NBC creates product
2) NBC sells ads and makes a profit.
3) NBC sells program to local affiliate with some open ad space.
4) Local Affiliate builds towers and transmitters and inserts ads to fund transmission plus a profit.
5) Dish Network wants to act as a tower to spread the NBC and local affiliate ads but the local affiliate also wants a cut for... doing absolutely nothing. -- THIS is the problem.

If Dish could get the program directly from NBC they could cut out half the ads and broadcast it funded by subscription. That's fine. But the local ads are there to fund the *transmission* but I'm already paying for transmission if I have a cable or sat subscription. So why would I pay the local affiliate for the privilege of airing their ads!?

It would be like Mozilla having to pay Facebook for the right to display Facebook to its customers. Even though Facebook makes its money from ads already.

ReplayTV

[jimmyswimmy]

I had a ReplayTV years ago that did this, which used to be a competitor for Tivo until they lost the pricing war (didn't take long!). Actually until a few months ago I still used it regularly to tape standard def TV shows, but then my "lifetime" subscription ran out... (let THAT be a lesson to you)

Anyway they had two incredible features on these boxes, from around 2003 until the service shut down. The first was commercial skipping, which worked reasonably well. The second was the ability to share recorded shows. Several communities sprung up around this capability, so you could request a show that you had missed from someone else who had taped it.

Predictably they were sued and that did not help their already troubled business model. But it's not such a new thing for commercial skip to be available in COTS consumer devices. And man I miss it!

Re:ReplayTV

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh. You didn't realise that they reconsidered and continued the service after we all bitched at their plans to discontinue? By the time they did that I'd switched to running against SchedulesDirect provided schedule served up by WiRNS (same data that replaytv serve up), and since that works so well I haven't bothered to switch back. If you've still got your boxes, I suggest reconnecting them. :)

I couldn't live without my 2 replaytvs. I use them to record everything - standard or high def in medium quality. Setting the HD output of the cable box to anamorphic allows you to exceed SD - I'd estimate I get to about DVD quality. I willingly sacrifice 5.1 surround and that extra bit of visual definition for the awesomeness that replaytv otherwise provides. Automatic commercial skip is the dogs bollocks.

IIRC, I think it was DishTV that bought out the IP once ReplayTV was sued into oblivion.

Re:ReplayTV

[Anonymous Coward]

Amen to this. I have my Replay 5500 still, and I had hacked it to have a 500GB drive or the like in a few years ago. It's like other DVR producers had never even seen another DVR before, the interfaces were so shitty compared (Sarah, Cox's latest mess, etc.).

I finally went HD and let it go, but it was a brilliant machine. I too streamed the saved video using that Java client to my PC, etc. Fantastic machine.

Re:ReplayTV

[Anonymous Coward]

Personally, I remained quietly hopeful, and as luck would have it they did indeed push out a message saying the service would continue and my 3 ReplayTV's remain fully functional. I use a similar setup (to the parent post) and indeed it continues to blow the lousy Comcast box out of the water. There's nothing quite like *not* having to reach for the remote every commercial break, because Commercial Advance picks it up perfectly about 95% of the time. The only times I have problems with the automatic feature are when watching programs that do a fade-to-black between scenes. Sometimes that will cause it to skip a bunch of content, but it's usually perfect.

The show-sharing feature was, and is, indeed awesome. Poopli.com is still up and running, and lots of people still offer content. Plus, DVArchive still works great and allows you to move shows between units, and stream them anywhere. Once I got a 3G phones several years ago, I was thrilled to be able to stream TV from my home to my cell phone without needing something like a slingbox, although I could only stream pre-recorded content. I still use my ReplayTV's and DVArchive - have about 1.3TB of recorded content, all taken from my Replay's and therefore fully commercial-skippable (VLC supports the CA function, you just have to map the enable/disable button to a key and turn it on, and make sure you include the EVT/XML files when you copy the MPG's.)

Also, on the non-CA Replay's they pushed out a software update like a decade ago that enables CA-like functionality. You can just press the nav keys at commercials and it will skip the entire commercial block. Much more effective than using multiple 30-60 second skips, and then having to rewind a bit, or still catch the end of a commercial break anyway.

One downside to this technology: I was always in the dark when people would talk about new movies/products/funny commercials. Who would've thought they served a useful purpose besides providing funding... I am still pretty much programmed to *groan* every time I have to reach for the Comcast remote when watching something on that box.

Re:ReplayTV

[DinDaddy]

I had a ReplayTV years ago that did this, which used to be a competitor for Tivo until they lost the pricing war (didn't take long!). Actually until a few months ago I still used it regularly to tape standard def TV shows, but then my "lifetime" subscription ran out... (let THAT be a lesson to you)

Yikes. Maybe you should go to a doctor and get a checkup.

Re:ReplayTV

[splatter]

Ehh ....I was a die hard first gen replay fan boy. Threw both boxes away after stripping for parts, when they stopped service.

I wouldnt have thought i would say this but Honestly I glad I left. Just the fact that they were thinking of shutting down while still having loads of dedicated customers and revenue sold as lifetime subscriptions to me ment it was the end, and even though the box was great the third (4th?) company had gone to shit and decided to screw its customers. the dvr I use now while missing a few features has more then it is missing, loads more space, good ui software, no lock ups every month, and HD. Not to mention I'm no longer tied to that damn IR blaster setup that used to piss me off too no end.

I was sad originally but now, ehh Good riddance.

Breaking Through Your Backdoor - it feels good!

[Anonymous Coward]

You'd be surprised how much hardware and software have back doors built into them, much of it legally.

GOOGLE: Cisco routers back doors

and you'll find hours of reading material alone just for one company.

WIKILEAKS: published information on dozens of companies making spyware for hardware and software and selling it to governments.

When is the last time you checked the firmware on your PCI devices and network card?

Your router?

Dumped and checksummed/debugged your BIOS lately?

Why aren't the anti-malware companies like Symantec and others climbing over each other in an effort to invent the technology and utilize it via the cloud to create GIANT databases of legit firmware for hardware in the fight against the most serious of root kits? Are they in bed with big bro?

How many so called remote exploits were patched this week in Windows? This month? This year? Since its release? Start from the beginning of the Windows version release and count all of the remote exploits up to present day and compare that to OpenBSD for example.

##

U.S. govâ(TM)t wiretapping laws and your network
â" https://www.networkworld.com/news/2007/012307-us-govt-wiretapping-laws-and.html

âoeActivists have long grumbled about the privacy implications of the legal âoebackdoorsâ that networking companies like Cisco build into their equipmentâ"functions that let law enforcement quietly track the Internet activities of criminal suspects. Now an IBM researcher has revealed a more serious problem with those backdoors: They donâ(TM)t have particularly strong locks, and consumers are at risk.â
â" http://www.forbes.com/2010/02/03/hackers-networking-equipment-technology-security-cisco.html

Re:Breaking Through Your Backdoor - it feels good!

[rev0lt]

Start from the beginning of the Windows version release and count all of the remote exploits up to present day and compare that to OpenBSD for example.

Please also compare funcionality. Please do tell me how many OpenBSD versions offer MAC control.

How many so called remote exploits were patched this week in Windows?

And X/Xorg or related libraries? Or local exploits? What features does OpenBSD provide in that regard that no one else does? How will OpenBSD make my computer impervious to a specific libjpeg attack? Or a zip bug?
...And yes, I'm both an OpenBSD user and enthusiast, and a windows user. You are absolutely right on the point that people take for granted base technology, but you lose it on the creepy side. And given the non-trivial IPSEC OpenBSD allegations, you can have only one certainty - if you worry that much, trust no one.

First of all...

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course they are "manipulating" the content stream. Even the act of transmission is a type of manipulation. They will also be re-compressing, buffering, etc. Inserting markers isn't required, since they could be sent in a separate stream if required.

At any rate, I haven't had cable TV or similar for more than 20 years (and I am only in my early 30s), because... I think the cable companies are huge rip-offs. The original idea I remember from the 80s was:

Cable: More channels, no advertisements! (but it's more expensive...)
But they got greedy. They wanted money from subscribers AND advertisers. Why should I pay for TV with ads?! It doesn't make sense.
I do pay now, for Hulu (Hulu.jp), but it's relatively cheap and no ads. The minute they start running ads is the minute I will cancel my account.

You might say "Ah, but what about local stations? They are free and need the money from the adverts!" Well... yeah, and then they try to charge the cable companies for carrying them. As long as they are running ads, they should be paying the cable companies, since they are basically acting as a huge giant broadcast tower by piping the TV with ads and all into everyone's home who might not even have reception otherwise.

Advertising

[girlintraining]

When cable TV was originally created, it was promoted as an advertisement-free alternative to regular TV. The subscription fee was the replacement to advertising revenue. Many people seem to have forgotten that -- today, it's just a foregone conclusion that you have to suffer advertising on everything. But it's a lie; And if there's millions of viewers on DishTV's network, then it doesn't matter how loudly advertisers scream... Dish can just pay the content producers directly and tell them to suck dick. The only one that loses here are advertisers who have to suck dick instead of forcing theirs down their subscriber's throats. :O

Re:Advertising

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually if you watch a number of cable channels on dish it looks like dish does adds in the places the local cable companies would use. (When a commercial is cut into with another after 3 seconds its a sign this is happening and it happens a lot on dish). Note that this does not apply to the cable channels as dish would then be cutting its own throat, only to the local network stations because dish can't cut the local commercials out for its own.

Re:Advertising

[Anonymous Coward]

girlintraining, I'm unclear, is sucking dick a good thing or a bad thing. Does that depend on training?

Re:Advertising

[Anonymous Coward]

I think the answer will change once s/he has finished his gender reassignment.

Re:Advertising

[Anonymous Coward]

How long do you have to be alive before you finally learn that "advertisement" is not abbreviated "add".

Re:Advertising

[Fnord666]

Dish can just pay the content producers directly and tell them to suck dick. The only one that loses here are advertisers who have to suck dick instead of forcing theirs down their subscriber's throats.

Except that content providers are under no obligation to provide that content to Dish. What happens when the content providers tell Dish to go suck it instead and cut them off completely? Those millions of viewers become thousands of viewers and Dish's revenue stream goes straight down the toilet.

Re:Advertising

[luther349]

yea i know love how they make that empty threat of pulling channels if they don't get there way. dish let them once it wasn't 3 months later the channel was back. because dish has a history of no letting content providers rape them with pricing like they do with the cable company's.

Re:Advertising

[tunapez]

Haha, digital radio offered that carrot to subscribers when XM and Sirius were starting out and bleeding red...(still?). Did anyone really believe it would last? Just like every other new corporate retailer on the scene, eliminate the competition while running massive losses until you can turn around and charge $5 for a product that previously sold for $1. Home improvement chains, gas suppliers and drug pushers all know this is the path to long-term success. Viva greed!

Re:Advertising

[Anonymous Coward]

Note that they're talking about network TV. They are under no obligation to provide it, but Dish (like all cable/satellite providers) is under an obligation to carry any local channels that ask them to. It could be that they want to free up that space...

Anyway, I doubt they actually wanna pull their content -- there's still product placement dollars (for network-owned shows, of course they don't get that for shows owned by someone else), and there's ratings -- if NBC, say, stays on Dish, and the others pull out, NBC gets a significant boost in ratings; probably not enough to beat anyone else, any night of the week, but it's still giving them a step up and yourself a step down.

Re:Advertising

[mattack2]

Missing a channel WITH SHOWS I WANT TO WATCH ON IT for 3 months IS NOT AN EMPTY THREAT.

It would make me mad at both sides in the argument.

Re:Advertising

[mattack2]

When cable TV was originally created, it was promoted as an advertisement-free alternative to regular TV.

Actually, no, cable TV was created as a way for people to use a shared antenna when they couldn't (or wouldn't) put up individual antennae for their individual houses.

(BTW, even though I watch a bunch of "cable" channels, I primarily get cable for reasonably reliable reception of "over the air" channels, since I would have to aim the antenna in different directions for different networks.. which obviously doesn't do well with unattended recording [esp with abutting shows -- so an automated rotor isn't a solution].)

Re:Advertising

[k6mfw]

When cable TV was originally created, it was promoted as an advertisement-free alternative to regular TV.

Good mention, many people never knew that (and it reminded those that forgot).

... instead of forcing theirs down their subscriber's throats.

I have to say, girlintraining always posts interesting comments.

Re:Advertising

[luther349]

it was not as bad as you think the channels sucked anyways.

Re:Advertising

[squiggleslash]

It's 100% empty.

Here's the deal: with Dish Network, you need a home where you're capable of putting up a large ugly disc on the side of a building, or some other prominent place.

Any home of that nature is equally capable of having a large ugly VHF/UHF antenna in the same place.

And since the digital transition, all Dish Network HD DVRs are capable of sucking down an ATSC signal from a regular antenna and recording it. They have built in ATSC tuners, and you can treat an ATSC channel as just another channel to select. And Dish honors the ATSC numbering system too so it's not like cable where channel 5 OTA is channel 173 "Digital cable".

So... essentially if a terrestrial channel doesn't want to play ball with Dish, it's not as big a deal as you might imagine. About the only issue is that ATSC MPEG-2 streams take up rather more DVR space than their compressed H.264 feeds...

Re:Advertising

[Anonymous Coward]

Can I have a witness!!
Though, I got tired of hearing myself reiterate this point (re:the initial promise of no advertising, because you pay for content directly) about 10 years ago.

In college in the mid late '90s, after having done some initial research (for a series of DSP courses I was in) into the possibility of detection of signal "fingerprints" between content stream bounderies in the broadcast signal for the purpose of obviating commercials in Cable TV, my DSP instructor poopoo'ed the Idea as too expensive, and I dropped it as a research project.

Several years later, TiVO appeared, and I screamed "YES! FINALLY!!" long story short, I kicked myself for not being more tenacious with my prof.

It's really just another example, cynically, of the conventional wisdom of 'beware thin edge of the wedge' business-wise.

A careful point about being choosy about which technologies you adopt early, etc.. (as your decision to do so often cements the possibilities) could be made here, but it would probably be a long, off-topic rant anyway.

Point is, it made me so mad that I got rid of cable mid-late '90s, and havent had it since.
That scumfucker business model hasn't had a dime of mine since then.

Replacement advertising.

[goombah99]

If dish can skip content then there is no reason why they can't replace content. THey could start inserting their own ads.

Also as far as implementing this goes, there's no need to auto-detect commercials. just pay some mechanical Turk to do it. sounds like an easy job to watch say 8 hours of TV and mark the commercials. It's only 4 or 5 channels so that's like 20 people to pay.

Re:Replacement advertising.

[Anonymous Coward]

I work in the biz. They (all major content providers) already do this. By replacing ads on the set top box (STB) there are three tiers of advertising: nationwide ads, regional ads and local ads. This allows them to maximize profits without having nationwide advertising for business that may only operate within a locality. Those hard drives in the STBs are being used for a lot more than just storing your DVRed content these days.

Re:Replacement advertising.

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

Also as far as implementing this goes, there's no need to auto-detect commercials. just pay some mechanical Turk to do it. sounds like an easy job to watch say 8 hours of TV and mark the commercials. It's only 4 or 5 channels so that's like 20 people to pay.

Hell, the commercial breaks on just 4 channels of prime time can be tagged by just one guy if he has a tool that lets him fast-forward and rewind.

Re:Replacement advertising.

[LordSnooty]

Why pay anyone? I press +1 minute on my remote three or four times, and ads are skipped. Do we really need to invent technology or pay humans to counter this very minor inconvenience?

Re:Replacement advertising.

[Anonymous Coward]

You missed one. You missed the products placed in the shows themselves. How many times have I watched reality tv and have seen bottles of pop with labels and bottles without labels or hats that are black taped on. Or shows that first air fine but then in reruns (or when you watch on dvd/blue-ray) they have blurry spots on items sitting on the table. While I can't be sure as to why advertising dollars is my guess.

Re:Replacement advertising.

[Anonymous Coward]

I work in the biz. They (all major content providers) already do this. By replacing ads on the set top box (STB) there are three tiers of advertising: nationwide ads, regional ads and local ads. This allows them to maximize profits without having nationwide advertising for business that may only operate within a locality. Those hard drives in the STBs are being used for a lot more than just storing your DVRed content these days.

You are presumming that I have an STB. I don't and never will... the day STBs become required is the day I stop using.

Re:Replacement advertising.

[Anonymous Coward]

Because of economy of scale. Why should millions of people manually skip commercials when it can be centralized and automated.

Advertising never ends

[SmallFurryCreature]

The real problem for most people is that advertising never ends, it never seems to be enough. For Americans it might just always have been there, I am old enough and European enough there are alternatives. Germany has a very odd mechanic where they seems to show all the ads on one TV station for about half an hour and that is it. Belgium occasionally has one. The BBC has none and Dutch TV didn't have to use any on Sunday so they had to add cartoons to make programs run a full hour. Battle Star Galactica (The original) followed by Bugs Bunny and then the news.

But if you watch some American TV (and may god have mercy on your soul) you will see ads EVERYWHERE, every five minutes, they have popups during the program, on the first seconds as the program comes back on after a commercial block and in the program itself. The logic seems to be that if 1 ad works, a 100 will work even better.

The reasoning when applied to sex (hey, I can't always use car anologies) would be that since your gf likes a small penis inside, she would REALLY like a big one so why not have her fucked by a whale and make her really happy. And then you wonder why she ain't happy, because you just make your gf explode into a thousand gooey bits from being banged by a volkswagen (oh okay, one car analogy) sized penis! HAPPY?

It as as when your gf asks you to spank her, what she means is that she wants you to make her hiny glow a nice pink color. NOT to beat her until she is a thin red paste on the wall and the cops are hauling you away, yet again (and now you know why on /. we use car analogies, because the other kind are just to revealing of the inner workings of the average analogy using slashdotter). There is a line between advanced sex play and first degree murder and there is a line between advertising that works and advertising that doesn't work because there is just to fucking much of it.

People are lazy, that can lead you to believe you can push them and stop until they start to react. The problem is that while people have a great deal of inertia, once they stop moving, they are unstoppable. Once people have started using time-shifting and ad-blockers, you can't get them to stop again. I started using ad blocking because a series of ads just pissed me off enough to take the effort and now all ads are blocks and screw you if your website dies because of it.

I think the real problem is that TV execs don't eat their own dog shit (calling TV food is just to ridiculous) they don't have to sit through their own ads to watch their own content. They don't get just how fucking annoying it gets and the people that stop watching don't show up on their statistics until suddenly, advertising on TV doesn't have as much effect in generating sales. You can see it in the advertising industry, they know they aren't reaching customers anymore but are at a loss of coming up with a solution. There are still viewers but they are the cattle that lack the income/knowledge to go elsewhere, the high income viewers are gone, unreachable. So... MORE ADS! That will get them back!

Re:Advertising never ends

[SuricouRaven]

I visited the US once, a few years ago, and made the mistake of trying to watch a movie on TV there. It was unwatchable. Every ten minutes or so, a break for five minutes of advertising. Completly ruined the mood.

I was also surprised by the number of pharmacutical adverts I saw. Over here in the UK, direct-to-consumer advertising of drugs is prohibited.

Re:Advertising never ends

[isorox]

The reasoning when applied to sex (hey, I can't always use car anologies) would be that since your gf likes a small penis inside, she would REALLY like a big one so why not have her fucked by a whale and make her really happy. And then you wonder why she ain't happy, because you just make your gf explode into a thousand gooey bits from being banged by a volkswagen (oh okay, one car analogy) sized penis! HAPPY?

It as as when your gf asks you to spank her, what she means is that she wants you to make her hiny glow a nice pink color. NOT to beat her until she is a thin red paste on the wall and the cops are hauling you away, yet again (and now you know why on /. we use car analogies, because the other kind are just to revealing of the inner workings of the average analogy using slashdotter). There is a line between advanced sex play and first degree murder and there is a line between advertising that works and advertising that doesn't work because there is just to fucking much of it.

What are you smoking?

Re:Advertising never ends

[Anonymous Coward]

You are comparing public access TV (payed for by taxes and ads) in the EU with TV in the US. Now watch some commercial channels in the EU and you'll see there are many minutes of ads per hour in the EU as well. ITV/Channel[45] channels all have multiple show (2-4m blocks every 10-15m). The German are the same with even ad overlays during the actual program. Dutch RTL/SBS channels are the same, 7m ad blocks every 15m. All annoying as hell, but a DVR/timeshifting removes some frustration till they al start using overlays. The only big difference between EU and US is the price people are willing to pay for a TV subscription. I'm paying 20 EUR/month for a sat. subscription (accounts for about 50 channels (most are not even in my channellist), but there are about 30 very interesting FTA channels available).

I'll get of your lawn now.

Re:Advertising never ends

[Anonymous Coward]

What are you smoking?

Whatever your mother gave him to smoke, I'd guess.

Re:Advertising never ends

[azalin]

I think I liked the cars better even though it is refreshing to see new ideas on /.

Re:Advertising never ends

[Anonymous Coward]

If you paid more attention to the med ads, you'll see that all say "ask your doctor about". The US has non-ad programming if you have the decent channels. TNT is probably the worst, ads increase as the film goes on, otherwise the ads are identical in timing and frequency as sky1.

Re:Advertising never ends

[Anonymous Coward]

And where can I get some?

Re:Advertising never ends

[Anonymous Coward]

That's what FREEEDOM smells like! You're not knocking freedom, are you?

If there's any problem here, it's that there's TOO MUCH government regulation! The free market would sort this all out, if only it were given a chance. The free market solves all. I have faith in it.

Re:Advertising never ends

[Anonymous Coward]

You are comparing public access TV (payed for by taxes and ads) in the EU with TV in the US.

No, actually he's comparing public access TV in the EU with whale-rape and spanking bodies into red misty oblivion. Can't you read?

Free market

[yesterdaystomorrow]

There is nothing more "industry unfriendly" than a genuine free market. Despite propaganda, no businessman ever wants to compete in freedom. What you want is to control the customer and the competition, not let them control you.

Dish without commercials

[Anonymous Coward]

It is questionable if Dish initiates action, but if Dish puts an option on the DVR to record without commercials and customer chooses to activate this option then it should be legal. Customer has right to record only what they want to see under fair use rules as long as for personal use.

Re:Dish without commercials

[allo]

why is this modded down? So true ...

Re:Dish without commercials

[therealobsideus]

It's not that DISH is recording without commercials - the commercials are still there. DISH is just allowing customers to choose whether or not they want to view the commercials on playback, and only the next day after the shows aired. From my standpoint, I know that there are times when I want the commercials to play and times that I don't. My coworkers and I at DISH love how the choice is in the consumer's hands now. Consumer choice is never a bad thing.

New consumer paradigm.

[Anonymous Coward]

There will be a transition period, but this is at least one example of an actual commercial firm realizing the major shift in how the consumers want to access media content.

Censorship.

[Alex Belits]

As a long-time advocate of censorship in mass-distribution media, I have to remind everyone that this is also a form of censorship.

I believe, it would be great if government ensured availability of media in such ad-stripped form, and provided a way to compensate the providers with subscription fees even if those providers refuse to implement such service on their own, or do not like the fees that users are willing to pay.

Re:Censorship.

[SeaFox]

As a long-time advocate of censorship in mass-distribution media, I have to remind everyone that this is also a form of censorship.

Which part is censorship?

The part where consumers get to opt-in to a service to skip ads, continue watching TV with ads as they have before, or continue to DVR it and make up their own minds then? Or the part where the owner of the content wants to sell advertising inserted with the product and not have a reseller editing the final item without their say-so?

War is Peace.
Freedom is Slavery.
Choice is Censorship.

Re:Censorship.

[Alex Belits]

Which part is censorship?

The part that advertisers are prevented from distributing their speech to some potential listeners despite advertisers clearly intending to do so and even paying for it.

The part where consumers get to opt-in to a service to skip ads, continue watching TV with ads as they have before, or continue to DVR it and make up their own minds then? Or the part where the owner of the content wants to sell advertising inserted with the product and not have a reseller editing the final item without their say-so?

Free speech is about the rights of the speaker, not listener. Consumer protection is about the rights of the listener, and thanks to the First Amendment, the former always trumps the latter in US (until "speech" reaches the point of being obscenity, a part of criminal activity, or by itself causes direct harm such as very loud noise, as those things aren't tolerated, Constitution or no Constitution).

Re:Censorship.

[Anonymous Coward]

They can speak alright, but I don't have to listen to them and I choose not to. They are not entitled to having their message distributed by Dish Network and they are not entitled to having their message listened to by me.

Re:Censorship.

[Alex Belits]

They can speak alright, but I don't have to listen to them and I choose not to.

You can refuse to watch. No one defend the consumer's right to get a partial message -- content without commercials.

The nature of mass media is that the listener has to go out of his way, and possibly violate copyright (or pseudo-copyright established by "copyright protection" laws) to get access to the version of "speech" that he prefers. Consumer has to rely on someone else censoring what was supposed to be an indivisible stream of content and commercials coming from TV network.

They are not entitled to having their message distributed by Dish Network and they are not entitled to having their message listened to by me.

However consumer should not be given a choice to either listen to content along with irritating, brainwashing gibberish, or have no access to content at all. Therefore I support consumer's right to get a censored (commercial-free) version of content as long as consumer is willing to pay for it, and for this purpose, free speech protection of the TV network has to be limited.

Re:Censorship.

[Anonymous Coward]

No, dude. Skipping ads is not censorship. Censorship is when someone is prevented from distributing their message. That's not the case here. This is a third party distributing a different message. The original authors and every intermediate can still distribute their original message. They can just not rely on a third party (in this case Dish Network) to do it for them. As I wrote before, they are not entitled to having their message distributed by Dish Network. This is not a censorship debate and you should not shoehorn it into a category that doesn't fit. Free speech protection is not violated and therefore does not need to be limited to allow Dish Network to provide markers for skipping ads.

Re:Censorship.

[azalin]

Even though the listener explicitly stated he didn't want to hear you? There is some difference between the right to speak and the right to be heard.

Re:Censorship.

[Alex Belits]

No, dude. Skipping ads is not censorship.

Only when the viewer does it. If he can.

Censorship is when someone is prevented from distributing their message. That's not the case here.

Of course, it is. TV network is prevented from distributing ads to users who subscribed to the service that blocks ads. Users are paying for censorship.

This is a third party distributing a different message.

That third party can't distribute a different message based on TV network's ad-infested broadcast because it does not have copyright to the original message.

The only reason why cable and satellite networks can redistribute "Free To Air" TV programs, is that they are specifically given both right and obligation to do so as a part of TV distribution mechanism mandated by the government (I believe, as a part of TV spectrum and cable operation licensing). The expectation is, of course, that cable operators will redistribute the original broadcasts, with ads and all, so they will not compete with TV networks who will get their ad revenue regardless of the way how viewers received their broadcasts -- over the air or over the cable.

From the TV network's point of view, this is a very fair arrangement. From the viewer's point of view it's pure madness -- user pays for cable subscribtion and is still bombarded with ads. The solution is to remove ads, charge the user a subscription fee, and pass some of those charges to the TV networks. However this can't possibly work if the ad-stripping is voluntary, TV networks believe that their ads worth more than users' subscription fees. So TV network will not voluntarily provide the redistribution rights for their content unless under condition that ads stay in it. Satellite operator removed ads anyway, what formally means that he infringed the copyright of the TV network by creating a derivative work. At least this would be the position of a TV network if they had to sue. And it's perfectly reasonable. Viewer can (in theory -- technical limitations and DMCA crap aside) skip ads because he has a specific right to time-shifting, and does not copy or redistribute the content any further. Satellite operator may claim that it merely performs time-shifring on behalf of the user, however this is unlikely to be believed because clearly redistribution takes place after modification.

This means, a separate protection should exist for distributing censored content (as opposed to arbitrarily modified content -- satellite operator isn't supposed to redistribute DVDs and remixes of things it picks from the air). Only government can grant this kind of protection because otherwise it will violate either copyright or freedom of speech.

Unrelated to this, excessive advertisement is both inconvenience and a public mental health hazard. Consumer protection laws impose restrictions and obligations that determine what should and what should not be available to consumers within reasonable price ranges. They do not force providers to distribute anything for free but other restrictions and requirement to provide products and services happen all the time.

Now, if it's a consumer's right to shield himself from exposure to commercials while still being able to watch the rest of broadcast, there must be a law that protects it. This is not the same as protecting the right of cable or satellite operator to distribute censored broadcasts, it's the right of consumer to demand them for a subscription price regardless of everyone else's wishes. Government has to force the TV network to accept subscription/licensing fees and force cable or satellute provider to allow this option. And here it is, consumer protection requires a restriction on TV network's "free speech" as TV network never intended to distribute their content without commercials, and would not voluntarily transmit it in such form, leave alone license it to anyone. TV network will argue that it infringes not only on their copyright

Re:Censorship.

[Alex Belits]

The listener didn't state that he diddn't want to hear you. He stated that he only wants to hear a part of your message. And you ("you" as TV network) are only interested in your whole message being heard.

I really understand how this is important for political speech, education and informing the public on any issues that might happen to be relevant to anything. But COMMERCIALS??? There has to be an exception for them.

Re:Censorship.

[Anonymous Coward]

Advertisers pay for the *opportunity* to be presented to viewers. If a viewer chooses to channel-hop, fast-forward or ad skip that opportunity is lost, but it's nothing new. People have been channel-skipping to get away from commercials for many many decades.

So no, there's no censorship at all, it's consumer choice.

Why, it would be like you saying that use of ad-block, ghostery, etc in your web browser were censorship... sheesh...

Free Speech means the speaker can say what they want (within reason, and with the onus that they are responsible for their speech - ie punished if it incites riots, causes harm to people, etc). However, the speech right ends at my ears. I have the right (and my right ALWAYS trumps the speakers) to not listen, not watch, not read.

That's the difference that you're not getting.

I can turn you off, walk away, put in ear-plugs. I cannot turn up a stereo to block others from hearing your whiny pathetic voice, but I can put headphones on and blast it away so that I don't have to hear it.

Oh and btw, the ads are still there, and you can choose to watch them, or you can turn on a feature which knows where the ads are and skips them, user choice same as it's been since Television started, just easier to do now.

Re:Censorship.

[Alex Belits]

Why, it would be like you saying that use of ad-block, ghostery, etc in your web browser were censorship... sheesh...

It would be if ISP implemented that in their service through a proxy.

The difference is, user modifies the content that he already received.

Free Speech means the speaker can say what they want (within reason, and with the onus that they are responsible for their speech - ie punished if it incites riots, causes harm to people, etc). However, the speech right ends at my ears. I have the right (and my right ALWAYS trumps the speakers) to not listen, not watch, not read.

So if someone allows you to print a newspaper but cuts articles from it before it reaches the readers, it's not censorship?

Re:Censorship.

[fahrbot-bot]

That third party can't distribute a different message based on TV network's ad-infested broadcast because it does not have copyright to the original message.

I think you'll find that you're incorrect about this - and your entire point, by the way. Affiliate stations substitute commercials from the network with local ones all the time. If you've ever seen a partial commercial that gets stuffed by another, you've seen a substitution with bad timing. Affiliate stations pay for programming just like Dish and Cable companies and they are analogous.

I didn't bother to read the rest of your post/rant as it's seriously misguided. Dish is simply providing the technology for the consumer to skip watching the commercials -- as if they chose not to watch by leaving the room -- like I can do with my MythTV system.

Unless, of course, you're advocating that consumers should be forced to watch commercials, then you're seriously cranked.

Re:Censorship.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not the same thing at all.
Did you read the article? Have you tried the tech?

The commercials are all there - all broadcast, all presented/presentable.. You toggle an option and they are skipped over, turn it off, and they play.

You can watch the same recording with and without the commercials.

Re:Censorship.

[Alex Belits]

I think you'll find that you're incorrect about this - and your entire point, by the way. Affiliate stations substitute commercials from the network with local ones all the time. If you've ever seen a partial commercial that gets stuffed by another, you've seen a substitution with bad timing. Affiliate stations pay for programming just like Dish and Cable companies and they are analogous.

Are they allowed to do so without a separate license (or with the same compulsory licensing that applies to OTA rebrodcasts)?

I didn't bother to read the rest of your post/rant as it's seriously misguided. Dish is simply providing the technology for the consumer to skip watching the commercials --

Right, and this is prohibited because it involves public distribution of derivative work (copyright) or blocking a message directed to the public (freedom of speech).

as if they chose not to watch by leaving the room -- like I can do with my MythTV system.

So do I, but the use of DVR exploits a specific provision that allows time-shifting by the user. It does not extend to the service.

Re:Censorship.

[Alex Belits]

As I said before, freedom of speech protects the speaker, not the listener or redistributor. This is not the same as playing the recording without commercials because subscriber skipped them -- it's redistributor excluding them.

You toggle an option and they are skipped over, turn it off, and they play.

No viewer in his right mind would willingly enable commercials in a recorded broadcast if it was possible to disable them, so it's a moot point. Viewer really has a choice only between current broadcast with commercials, or yesterday's broadcast without commercials.

AD: Viewers love to skip commercials

[Anonymous Coward]

No, they don't love to skip commercials, the reason is WAAAAY TOO MANY commercials per 1 hour block!!! Of 1 hour block, commecials make up to 12-13 minutes of time, sometimes even 15-17 minutes of time. That is easily about 25% of each TV hour filled with utmost garbage, AND THAT HAPPENS EVERY BLOODY 10 MINUTES! Who on Earth would love to watch a show chopped in tiny inedible bits, like it happens with USA TV channels! No one, with an exemption for true masochists. I suggest cut the friggin' commercials down to 3x per hour a no more than 8-10 minutes and their TV shows will again be watchable.

Ever wondered why EU TV channels present their USA-based shows with 3-4 scene fade-outs before true commercials appear? That's how commercially over-fed are the USA TV shows.

TV/commercial breaks too long

[GodfatherofSoul]

This is something that really bugs me. When I was a kid, I can remember the exact pattern of commercials. There were exactly 4 commercial breaks with 4 commercials each 30 seconds long. So, you had 22 minutes of content for 8 minutes of advertising. Even the placement was exactly the same in my favorite shows. Two breaks were interspersed during the show with 2 breaks mixed in between show intro-outros. I don't know if the ratio is the same, but the breaks on network TV are definitely way too long and far too much for my patience.

Re:TV/commercial breaks too long

[DinDaddy]

I don't know when you were a kid, but you can check this for current shows by buying DVD sets.

Only current show we've bought is Big Bang Theory, and the episodes seem to clock at 21-22 minutes.

On the other hand, shows like ST:TOS and Jonny Quest( revealing my DVD buying habits) are 24-25 minutes.

I stopped paying for Cable for a number of reasons

[Phlow]

One of which being that I was fucking tired of PAYING to watch advertisements. It's one of the biggest scams of all time. Everywhere I go, I'm inundated with ads. The rare time I go to watch a movie at the theater, now instead of just movie ads, I'm watching ads for soft-drinks, cars, TV shows... Keep going Entertainment Industry. Keep annoying the shit out of me. See how far it gets you.

Bathroom break time folks

[Anonymous Coward]

When I see an ad, I get up and go to the can, simple eh?

Re:Bathroom break time folks

[Anonymous Coward]

You must spend a lot of time in there considering there is in a typical 30 minute slow slot, about a minute or two of a show for an opener, 2-3 minute ad break, 7-10 minutes of show, 4 minute or so add break, another 7 - 11 minutes of show, and another couple minute ad break, then sometimes another sliver of the show (like the daily show's moment of zen, or 30 rock's jokes during the credits *which I wouldn't even know existed if not for torrents), then a few more ads after the show, but at least if you don't care about what is on next you can turn the boob tube off.

That's still 4 breaks every half hour, longer then the time it takes to relieve oneself. What usually happens to me if I am feeling like zoning out is I'll forget what show I am watching as I flip to another channel or just decide it's not worth it and switch off to xbmc and watch something ripped from dvd without 10 minutes of ads for ever 20 minutes of show.

Re:Bathroom break time folks

[azalin]

If you have to visit the loo every time there is a commercial break, you should really go and see a doctor.

Re:Bathroom break time folks

[Cro Magnon]

When I see an ad, I get up and go to the can, simple eh?

Wow, you must drink more than I do!

Re:Bathroom break time folks

[squiggleslash]

You might think that, but you're only looking at one option.

His real secret? Sugar free mints. And bran muffins.

Tone it down?!

[BenJCarter]

One tailored advert three times per hour is cool. 20 minutes/hour of tampon adverts fails my viewing threshold. Get smart, or get bypassed.

Re:I stopped paying for Cable for a number of reas

[Gordonjcp]

Exactly. Why would you *pay* for TV services, and then have adverts shown all the time? American TV is the worst for this, with about five minutes of programme for every ten minutes of obnoxiously loud adverts.

I don't really watch a lot of TV, but loud intrusive adverts put me off watching what little I do watch. BBC iPlayer is just about perfect.

Re:I work in the advertising industry, I dont

[Anonymous Coward]

I do not care, if they showed simple, quick ads like they did back in the early days of TV (when it first started) they would be okay.

When you belittle people by making the shit stain commercials you make, you are subliminally sending out a message that people are idiots and need to waste there time to watch something that actually sets back the human race being the most advanced . You can shove it, people will hit the mute button or change the channel for a few minutes till the original program comes back on.

Or people use the on-demand service to re-watch or watch what they missed and fast forward through the ads anyway. You dont like it tough luck, stop making ads as moronic a possible I will consider watching them. You make a paycheck with or without me watching them.

I can point out that there are 312 million people in the US only a fraction watch TV. Those that do cannot recount or remember slogans these idiot bigwigs of companies agree to use. Out of people they asked only 1%, out of that 1% .... 0.5% could not finish the company slogans, when prompted to finish or start them. 0.5% could not name the company after being told the slogan. When asked why they could not they stated the obvious the ads were stupid, belittling, and flat out made little to no sense.

The difference in internet ads for the most part they are simple and slideshow ads. However the internet is becoming worse by slowing my computer with flash ads that are as stupid, as the TV ads. Or they keep them simple but have to use flash instead of a still photograph.I do not mind the internet ads until I see they are more or less a looped video.

Sorry for the brute honesty, I do not dislike or hate you. But if you are going to blast people for not watching ads, you need to reflect on the industry itself and why it has failed, you make ads too annoying and just dumb to watch. If you kept it simple, without BS jingles, or over acting morons, or over blown gimmicks people would be more inclined to watch the ads.

Spend to much time on the psychology of making ads instead of finding out from the people who have to watch the ads what they are willing to tolerate..

US TV in 2012

[Anonymous Coward]

can be simply defined as

                Commercials with Programming breaks.

nothing more, nothing less.

The Advertisers dictate what gets shown and when.
The Advertisers can dictate when the Network moves to another program despite the previous one (eg US Foodball) still not being finished.
The Advertisers can dictate the rules of sports so that they can have as many commercial breaks as possible. This is why they hate proper Foortball or Rugby.

so what is left?

not a lot really.
Sadly these 'features' are spreading to places outside the US.

Re:US TV in 2012

[Idbar]

There's one particular thing I remember from demolition man... besides the shells that is. The fact that their entertainment was advertisement, they sang jingles from companies and chains. Which makes me wonder if we're really headed that path. And it becomes more and more evident with all the product placement from Microsoft, apple, Toyota, etc.

Re:US TV in 2012

[Anonymous Coward]

Commercials with Programming breaks.

This is Media Break! You give us three minutes, and we'll give you the world.

The BBC

[biodata]

The British Broadcasting Corporation does not have adverts on domestic television. It's much better. Just pay your TV licence to the government instead of paying your cable subscription to the media organisation, and magically, your TV programs have no ads. Really, try it, you'll like it a lot.

Re:The BBC

[Rob Riggs]

In the U.S. we call that socialism. And socialism is bad m'kay.

Re:The BBC

[Anonymous Coward]

We have a direct tax instead, even if you don't watch the BBC. Failure to pay is punishable in the courts. I personally would like an end to the license fee.

Re:The BBC

[Bigby]

We have this; called PBS. We have it privately too; called HBO.

Re:The BBC

[Anonymous Coward]

We have this; called PBS. We have it privately too; called HBO.

Except that HBO should carry a R level rating most of the time and most people under 18 shouldn't be watching unsupervised.

Re:The BBC

[cmdr_klarg]

This is America, we like paying more for less. /sarcasm

Re:The BBC

[squiggleslash]

One thing I think's a crying shame is that HBO requires a cable subscription. It would genuinely be nice to subscribe to four or five channels, for a moderate monthly free ($15-25), that provides ad free channels and decent quality shows. Unfortunately, HBO doesn't allow that, and right now only offers a subset (some movies and dramas. No news. Few (any?) documentaries. etc.)

Re:The BBC

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm waiting for netflix to allow me to pay a little extra to add showtime, hbo, network primetime, or new releases to my streaming package.

Funny

[Anonymous Coward]

MythTV's had this feature for years.
http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/Commercial_Detection

advertising went to far, now I resist it.

[CFD339]

Advertising on web pages went from small, single banner ads to obnoxious fly-across animations and other practices that went past what I was willing to allow -- so I block virtually all of it.

Advertising on television has gotten nearly as bad. It's very poorly targeted, frequently either offensive or incredibly banal. It's disingenuous or outright misleading, and aggressive.

Programming is no longer a good enough trade for me to sit through the advertising.

Lawsuit in 3...2...1...

[JRock911]

This worked out so well for ReplayTV. Good luck, Dish!

Re:Lawsuit in 3...2...1...

[luther349]

dish isnt some small company that was aruldy losing money.and dish has a history of telling content providers to stfu. they even let them pull channels because they would not pay the same rape rates as cable is.of course dish has millions of viewers and the content providers had to back down being every day there channel was not on dish they lost millions. why i will always love em and have them.

Two false assumptions

[Anonymous Coward]

You make the assumption that in order to maximize revenue that this site would not have made those actions anyways. You also assume that I perceive a jobs site or sponsored poll as less annoying than a "catch the monkey" flash ad.

Replay TV anyone?

[porkUpine]

Didn't Replay TV get sued out of existence a few years ago for attempting this very same thing? It was a sad day when I had to give up my RPTV 4000 series boxes (the last ones built with "Commercial Advance").
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ReplayTV

Re:Replay TV anyone?

[shizzle]

Exactly... how is Dish Network going to fare better than ReplayTV did?

I sure hope they find a way... I clung to our 5000-series model for years because of automatic commercial skip. One of the best purchases I ever made, and the highest WAF score ever for an electronic device. (Note that the 5000s also have commercial skip, as I believe ReplayTV started building them before they lost the lawsuit. The 5500 series then came out, which is basically the 5000 series without commercial skip.)

Finally when we got a 55-inch TV I decided that I needed something with hi-def output and switched to Dish. I'd be thrilled if commercial skip came back and I didn't have to grab for the remote and start pounding the 30-second skip button every time a commercial came on.

1 day later?

[Anonymous Coward]

If the warez groups can do it 20 minutes after the show airs, what is the providers excuse? they can't get a cut time of when commercial break airs from the networks and programitacally cut the shows right after they air?

Ill give in that as there are hundreds of people working in release groups to capture, edit and then release shows, while dish only has a small department I bet. But when dish is making deals with the networks for this and has access to the source, theres no damn reason for this.

Re:ReplayTV - There's your problem right there...

[Anonymous Coward]

...Actually until a few months ago I still used it regularly to tape standard def TV shows...

ReplayTV used tape? It's no wonder they're not around anymore...

Nice Try, Dish Network

[DaKong]

The cord has already been cut in our household, four years ago. We have Netflix and stream content through our Nintendo. I don't care if the shows aren't the latest, greatest. Being able to watch entire seasons of a show in a row, without commercials, more than makes up for the "dated" material. It also more than makes up for the absence of the latest, greatest Hollywood blockbusters. Indeed, it's that absence that has led me to discover many great foreign movies and TV shows as well as American series that I would not have tried before, such as Breaking Bad and Sons of Anarchy.

We went on vacation a couple weeks ago and tried to turn on the TV. It was such dreck, intercut with endless commercials of other dreck, that you could not pause or browse through or fast forward/back through that we turned the set off after 30 seconds and never turned it on again.

All of you geeks should try a similar experiment: turn off the TV cold turkey for a couple months. Use DVDs or torrents instead (or go outside!). After that time, turn the TV back on and see if you can even tolerate it. Bet you won't.

Re:Nice Try, Dish Network

[bughunter]

Agree with you: Too little, too late.

There are any number of ways to roll your own DVR system these days that will allow you to buffer the first 20 minutes of a broadcast TV so that you can skip the commercials, and also allow you to download or torrent content that you don't subscribe to.

Anyone who has put together a PC-based home theater system has this capability.

For as little as a hundred bucks or so, anyone with a PC can add an external decoder and do the same thing. I did this with an iMac in our kitchen and now we watch TV in there as much as in the TV room.

So how is this different...

[SilverJets]

...from the "on-demand" services that many satellite and cable operators provide? Last time I checked (and it was years ago) on-demand let you watch the show without commercials.

I stopped for one reason

[SilverJets]

There was nothing on. And I mean nothing. I had the highest tier my cable company provided. All the channels, movies, music, everything. And there was nothing on. The last day I had cable I was channel surfing looking for something to watch and I came across a "reality" show about two dumb blondes running a tanning salon in Beverly Hills California. And they were talking about NOTHING....one had her hair done...liked the others nails...how much they drank the night before...who they saw at a party....etc. Turned the tv off, called the cable company and ended my subscription, and sold the tv a few months later when I found a new use for the space it was taking up. Never looked back.

Get MythTV!

[Anonymous Coward]

The solution is simple. Get opensource MythTV, endure the Byzantine configuration process and nightmarish Linux device driver problems, then never watch an inane commercial again--from any source, right after broadcast, without paying Dish or anybody anything, and no matter what any court says.

why bother

[Anonymous Coward]

Cancelled my Rogers cable long time ago, switched to FTA. The amount of ads is indeed annoying no matter what you watch. So I stopped watching TV altogether.
You will be impressed how much free time you will suddenly have.

I'm waiting for the day I will get a book from the library and they will have fliers in the book for some stupid sale or something....

easy way to replace ad income

[RobertLTux]

Have the Shows themselves include product placements (where it makes sense of course). a Morning news show could have the coffee the anchors drink sponsored by say Maxwell House (or Dunkin Doughnuts) and we could start seeing real life brands in TV shows. Heck if you wanted to you could have a "sponsors page set" on the TV shows website.

Next up: Mycroft

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

In "Stranger in a Strange Land", one of Heinlein's characters gets rich off a TV addon that skips commercials. It also changed the channel for you if a TV preacher came on.

Well, I do not work in the advertising industry

[Stormin]

And while I do not like most advertisements I understand the need to pay for things.

Not to worry in the case of /. though. For a ridiculously low fee you can pay /. to not serve you any ads. Frankly I think this is great and wish I could use it to get rid of ads in many other places where I have to endure them.

Subtle is fine

[KingSkippus]

I mostly agree, though they can go overboard with product placement ads, too. The best ones are the ones that naturally blend into scenes. However, when two guys get into a car and one says something like, "I'll use my Microsoft Sync to figure out how to get there..." and there's a few seconds of him fiddling with his GPS navigation system and such, it's distracting.

And then there are product placements that are so over-the-top that they're kind of funny. Subway's advertising in Community and Chuck come to mind.

I've got the perfect solution!

[Anonymous Coward]

I've got the perfect solution!

I’m pleased to report the perfect solution to the problems of blinking, blaring, in-your-face TV ads: don’t watch TV. At all. Period.

After your addictive inclinations recede, you’ll find you don’t really miss it much and you can think clearer and a bonus. This approach saves money, also.

Ref: The Four Arguments for the Elimination of Television. http://archive.org/details/Four_Arguments_for_the_Elimination_of_Television

Note: I haven’t watched the the air-head conditioner for almost 15 years.

Re:I've got the perfect solution!

[neminem]

I have a better solution, that doesn't involve arbitrarily calling a whole medium stupid and worthless: it's called bittorrent.

Seriously, though, I don't get why people say television is *necessarily* worse than books or movies or radio or comics or etc. Yes, there's a lot of crappy tv, but there are a lot of crappy books, movies and comics, too. Nobody's forcing you to read or watch them. I -do- grant your linked article's point that -hypothetically-, the networks have more control over content, in a way that no such similar system exists for control over books, which is sort of too bad, and I do feel we'll move slowly towards a world in which network tv still exists, but has to compete more strongly with independent internet tv. In the meantime, though... that doesn't change the fact that I've seen some great, even some decently subversive, television programs out there.

(Yes, I know, I'm a couple days late.)

Auto Hop

[Anonymous Coward]

All I know about this feature is that it saves me time, so I like it. I have two kids, so it’s been roughly six years since I’ve been able to watch any of my favorite shows as they air. It just isn’t possible. If it wasn’t for DVR, I doubt I’d get to watch them at all. Now though, since most of what I watch is recorded off PrimeTime Anytime anyway, and will sit in my DVR a day or two before I get to it, if I want, I can watch my favorite shows with the commercials automatically skipped over. Some days it’s a miracle that I get thirty solid minutes to myself to watch an episode of Community or Parks & Rec, but now, all I really need is twenty-two minutes or so. When I first signed up to be an employee beta tester for Dish and had the Hopper installed, I had no idea this feature was in the works; now, I don’t see how I ever got through an entire show without it.

You have adverts on TV ?

[RockDoctor]

Errr, why?

And, does anyone watch them? Or listen to them?

That's almost as stupid and ineffectual as using the radio to broadcast music and then slapping people round the face with adverts while they're looking for the tuner to find something interesting to listen to. Or phoning someone at home to have them realise you're trying to sell something, so they can tell you : "You're advertising. Therefore you're a thieving liar. Now fuck off. [CLICK]"

Total WOMBAT : Waste Of Money Brains And Time.

But how will people be made aware of

[ToddInSF]

the latest pharmaceuticals and their horrible side effects and adverse reactions for made-up conditions ?

Dish, That's Pretty Desperate

[Lime Green Bowler]

I know you're in dire need of customers and all, but commercial skip won't get me back. Sorry.
Seriously. I already pay a fairly high bill for satellite service. Why do I have to pay for ads?