School Regrets Swapping Laptops For iPads

Barence writes "A school swapped all its staff laptops for iPads — and now wants to switch them back. 'Most staff are IT illiterate and jumped at the chance of exchanging their laptop for an iPad,' a teacher from the school told PC Pro. Now, however: 'the staff room is full of regret.' Difficulties editing old Word and PowerPoint documents, transferring work to and from the device without USB sticks, and problems with projecting the iPad's display to the classroom — bizarrely, using an Apple TV — have led to staff once again reaching for their Windows laptops."

Comments

Forget about editing just old Word and PP

[thammoud]

I love my iPad for reading and viewing stuff. Editing? Not so much. I dread the moment where I have to hover over, click on the right place and edit. Useless.

Re:Forget about editing just old Word and PP

[Naatach]

Tablets make a great spoon and terrible kitchen tool. They're good for consuming, but not much else.

Re:Forget about editing just old Word and PP

[Naatach]

Tablets make a great spoon and terrible kitchen tool. They're good for consuming, but not much else.

They do, however, make an excellent cutting board.

Re:Forget about editing just old Word and PP

[WilyCoder]

Fart apps changed the world. True story.

Re:Forget about editing just old Word and PP

[Anonymous Coward]

I think all that gorilla glass would dull your knives.

Re:Forget about editing just old Word and PP

[Shadow99_1]

Don't lump all tablets into that category. My handy Transformer does a solid job of editing documents, more so with the keyboard dock. It's far from the norm for tablets, but MS seems to want to change that with their efforts in the field with Windows 8 (as much as I don't find it appealing on desktops and I don't have any plans to buy a new tablet).

Re:Forget about editing just old Word and PP

[Anonymous Coward]

Most of the videos uploaded to youtube now come from phones or tablets, for example.

[[citation needed]]. Specifically, the "or tablets" part. Yes, we know phones are a major contributor, but the piece under debate here is whether or not tablets are doing the same thing.

I know for a fact that when newsworthy events happen, they're probably going to happen at a speed where I want a quick handheld device I can whip out at a moment's notice, like a phone. Not a clumsy, oversized device like a tablet.

Re:Forget about editing just old Word and PP

[JustAnotherIdiot]

Spoken like someone who's never tried to write a research paper on a tablet/smartphone.
My wrists cringe at the very thought of having to do such.

Re:Forget about editing just old Word and PP

[steelfood]

And if you want a knife to use with that fancy new cutting board, you'll need to buy a MacBook Air.

Re:Forget about editing just old Word and PP

[wonkey_monkey]

My handy Transformer does a solid job of editing documents, more so with the keyboard dock.

Isn't there a word for tablets with keyboard docks? ;)

Re:Forget about editing just old Word and PP

[PeanutButterBreath]

Sorry, you have violated the groupthink by posting that people are creating content with tablets. You will now be modded down for telling the truth.

Assuming any tablet users are able to actuate the moderation widget.

Re:Forget about editing just old Word and PP

[Tablizer]

If they had an easy option to plug in a keyboard and a stand to hold the screen up, they would essentially *be* a laptop. I only see that kind of thing in the Android market.

Re:Forget about editing just old Word and PP

[immaterial]

I have one friend who is a 5th grade teacher and has been using his iPad in class for two years now, and another friend who has been a dedicated K-8 grade iPad technology manager (ie. he stands somewhere between the regular IT staff and the teachers; managing tech support for the tablets, researching and testing educational apps, coming up with iPad-based lesson plans, and teaching students and - most importantly - teachers how to integrate use of the tablets into lessons and workflows). I'm basing my opinions here on their experiences.

There is no question what an awesome tool the iPad can be for education. The ability to instantly interact with information in such a visceral and responsive way can be very powerful for the students. Touch, physical interaction, and instant feedback are fundamental to kids (and everyone else, but particularly to kids since they haven't mastered abstract thought). Live charts/graphs and other graphical representations can help kids better grasp what the numbers they're looking at are actually doing; the ability to explore and interact with a science "textbook" (not a useful word anymore) so the student can follow where her curiosity leads her is amazing. Etc. Etc.

But as you say, this is mostly reading and viewing; very little heavy editing. Tablets (especially iPads) are not particularly well designed for heavy-duty text editing (basic note taking or numerical input is fine though). Buying a bunch of iPads and attempting to use them as the only tool for the job is just as stupid as buying an awesome chef's knife and then tossing out all your spoons.

Based on my friends' experiences, the biggest roadblock to proper iPad usage is nobody is around to explain things or set things up. Teachers have a million other things to do in class, and often a school administrator decides "this iPad thing looks neat" and dumps the technology on them with no training whatsoever and zero support from IT, and suddenly the teacher has one more thing to try to figure out. Teachers that are already tech savvy (like my first friend) can do great things with them, but most are not. It takes a properly organized program (like my second friend is involved in) to get it working at a school- or district-wide level.

As to the nonsensical complaint about the AppleTV: huh? The article complains they could have done it "much cheaper" for ~$30 rather than the $99 cost of an AppleTV, but that small savings requires teachers to be tethered to a cord at the front of the classroom. The ability for the teacher to walk around the classroom and interact with students while streaming information and interactive results wirelessly to the class's screen is a HUGE advantage that is more than worth $69. The issues mentioned in the article are due to inadequate IT support and training.

Re:Forget about editing just old Word and PP

[fa2k]

They're good for consuming, but not much else.

We're seeing a damned revolution in the ability of people to create content, and you're bitching about "only good for consuming?"

I'd say it's somewhere in between ... PCs are excellent for manipulating text and for precision manipulation of graphics. They are obviously best at computing-heavy tasks.

Tablets may be great for interfaces where you have a limited but large number of options, which on a PC would be hidden in menus, but tablets can use the full screen for interactivity + gestures. They also seem good for timing-sensitive input tasks (e.g. real-time music editing). It seems that some of the innovation is not due to the tablet/touch form factor, but instead due to the delivery and payment options -- many small developers try out new things.

Disclaimer: i have barely touched a tablet

Re:Forget about editing just old Word and PP

[justforgetme]

Most of the videos uploaded to youtube now come from phones or tablets

Phones yes, tablets not so much.
Also, that is most as in number of submissions. The most stuff as in the stuff you watch by the millions and accounts for the 90% of video views is still shot on DSLRs and Pro Cinematography gear.

Also, nobody does real work on smartphones and tablets atm.

Re:Forget about editing just old Word and PP

[nedlohs]

The topic is content creation for a classroom not "in general". See the subject of your comment? Creating videos isn't what that is usually about.

And sure there might be people using voice recognition and bluetooth keyboard with tablets, but apparently a whole set of users (the article is about them) seem to be having trouble with it.

Re:Forget about editing just old Word and PP

[PopeRatzo]

There are music creation apps people are using to write songs

I've tried them all. They suck really bad.

Companies that make pro gear for musicians bought into the idea the musicians are going to be using iPads and iPhones on stage and in the past few years came out with a ton of interfaces, apps, mixing consoles with iPad docks, etc. Even Apogee, a stalwart in the high-end AD/DA conversion market, came out with a large diaphragm condenser mic that plugs into an iPhone. It's a piece of shit and the first product produced by Apogee that is a ripoff (I'm a big fan of Apogee and have used their interfaces for years).

They are all being sold at close-out prices, according to my most recent Musicians' Friend catalog.

If you want to say that the iPhone-shot videos on YouTube represent some renaissance in art produced on computers, I think I can present a convincing counter-argument.

Finally, let's see moving forward what the walled garden approach does for art created on Apple products. I'm not optimistic. It's a platform designed for consumption.

Re:Forget about editing just old Word and PP

[Anonymous Coward]

Jesus, how desperate are you? Yeah, lots of people upload short, shitty videos to youtube from their phones. If you want to call that "content creation", and lump all phones in with ipads, fine.

Meanwhile, content creation is not moving to mobile in earnest. Very, very few people choose to write anything with them. All other kinds of creation that you can find are done largely as gimmicks. That might change some day, but it hasn't yet.

We have some idea of how these things get used. You're not going to just shout us into submission on the subject.

Re:Forget about editing just old Word and PP

[Anonymous Coward]

Lack of setup and training seems to be the big issue here. People seem to think they were getting "cool touch-based laptops," they were getting a Tablet. The IT department didn't think about transferring files and the staff seems to have only used sneaker-net to get files from one device to another (dropbox? box.com? district local network storage?).

It was a poorly implemented mess.

Re:Forget about editing just old Word and PP

[WindBourne]

Actually, if you add a bluetooth keyboard and mouse, they are pretty good.
Otherwise, I agree with you.

Re:Forget about editing just old Word and PP

[Anonymous Coward]

Tablets are toys, made for fun. To do real work, you must have a computer.

Re:Forget about editing just old Word and PP

[Anonymous Coward]

I have no kids, so this is based on conversations with coworkers whose kids' school has recently switched to an iPad-heavy curriculum.

The lack of training and tech support basically means teachers struggle, and parents struggle, to install software and manage the device. My coworkers are engineers, and tech-savy enough to make this work, albeit with many hours spent working through apparent software issues (seems some of this for-education software is perhaps not quite at-par with your average app). But a great many parents aren't quite so savvy, and though the kids can probably figure it out quickly, the whole thing is an additional unplanned-for burden on parents. If it was guaranteed to result in better education, I suspect 99% would happily accept that new headache. But there's obviously no such guarantee...

They also are bemoaning that it seems this switch is a cost-saving move (iPads are purchased by families, or leased from the school at an exorbitant rate), since the families buy the software, provide 90% of the IT support, and it allows the school to skip a year of buying new textbooks, workbooks, etc, etc.

Whether the whole thing really involves a scheme to help the budget by transferring more expenses directly to the students' families, I cannot say. But it definitely seems poorly thought out, and a little too much like hopping on the "ooh shiny!" bandwagon. I guess we'll see...

Re:Forget about editing just old Word and PP

[Anonymous Coward]

I love my iPad for reading and viewing stuff. Editing? Not so much. I dread the moment where I have to hover over, click on the right place and edit. Useless.

My sentiments exactly about my iPad2. I find it incredibly clumsy to use and am mystified by all the iPad love. I don't think the screen is at all good for reading like a Kindle. There is nothing on the iPad I can't do much easier on a decent laptop because of this fat finger problem. Hate the absence of a back arrow to position the cursor. And I cannot download and install the Netflix app on the stupid thing because my credit card billing address is outside the US and hence so is my branch of the App Store. Haven't found a workaround.

Re:Forget about editing just old Word and PP

[Anonymous Coward]

And my iPad does a wonderful job of editing .doc documents and .ppt power points in Pages and Keynote. I use a Bluetooth keyboard for anything more than minor edits. AirPlay to a AppleTV connected via HDMI is great for wireless presentations. Dropbox is great for file transfer. The teachers don't need to use USB memory sticks from their home computers on the school network anyways; one less attack vector to worry about. The mistake here wasn't moving to iPad it was getting the teachers tablets without the software or infrastructure to make them work. They didn't have to jailbreak them, but they did have to go a step beyond buying hardware for a new platform and expecting it to work without any transition. It's no different than moving from Windows to a Linux box and then bitching that your antique printers aren't supported, and that you can't run MS proprietary software on it. One doesn't buy a DVD player and complain their VHS tapes won't play on it.

Re:Forget about editing just old Word and PP

[interval1066]

The heralded death of the notebook was a bit premature apparently.

Re:Forget about editing just old Word and PP

[Graham J - XVI]

They're just dropdowns, works fine.

Re:Forget about editing just old Word and PP

[Wild_dog!]

Precisely said AC. There are lots of things that make an iPad very useful, but it needs to be setup to do it. Somehow I believe the infrastructure as far as appropriate software was lacking and perhaps even more imperative is proper training using a new paradigm.

Re:Forget about editing just old Word and PP

[immaterial]

That definitely sounds terrible, especially the twist of forcing families to buy the apps (that's one I've never heard of before).

At the K-8 school my friend works at, the school purchased about one hundred iPads (enough that the average class can spend half a day with them in class every other day). He was hired to manage and maintain them (so it isn't an extra burden on the preexisting IT department, or the teachers and parents) and does so using Apple's enterprise tools which allow him to push updates and new software, volume license software (cheaper than everyone buying individually), image/restore, manage age restrictions, etc. fairly easily. He is also responsible for researching/purchasing new educational apps and training teachers and students how to use them. It's a great system, because the iPad becomes an asset to the teacher and students rather than a burden, and IT is happy to work it into the existing infrastructure because it isn't a huge new burden on them, either.

My other friend (5th grade teacher) works at a much poorer school (one of the poorest in the state actually) and just has one iPad in his classroom that he purchased himself, filled with apps that he purchased himself. Until this year it was hooked up to his projector via physical cable (that he purchased himself) as the submitter's article suggested was the best way to go, but being tethered was a huge annoyance. I was going to buy him an AppleTV for this year, but the school IT department somehow manage to lose his connector cables over the summer and ended up offering to buy him one out of their budget. Needless to say, he's been thrilled being untethered from the projector. He's always been ecstatic about what a difference the iPad has made in his classroom, even though he only has one and he has to do the support for it himself.

The iPad really is an awesome tool when used in the right way, but a replacement for a work laptop it sure isn't. What's sad is people are going to generalize from this and decide the whole thing is worthless overall rather than a specific tool for a specific job.

Re:Forget about editing just old Word and PP

[chicago_scott]

All current tablets and smartphones are made for consuming, not creating. That's the purpose of these devices. The IT staff for this school system should have known that.

Re:Forget about editing just old Word and PP

[immaterial]

So your recommendation is to save 30 bucks by dragging a 30-foot cable around through a sea of desks and children's feet all day every day? You're kidding, right?

If a school can get the same use out of a cheaper Android tablet as they can out of an iPad, more power to them. The sad fact is that a huge majority of the tablet-based educational software out there right now is iPad-only, and that currently tips the scales in Apple's favor.

Re:Forget about editing just old Word and PP

[LandDolphin]

OR maybe you and Steven Drozd enjoying using sucky apps?

Re:Forget about editing just old Word and PP

[pubwvj]

I have a keyboard for my iPad which makes it much better for editing and composing but even with the keyboard the iPad isn't as good as my MacBook. On the other hand, for reading documents the iPad excels. Each has their place. I would not give up one for the other.

Re:Forget about editing just old Word and PP

[Savage-Rabbit]

Spoken like someone who's never tried to write a research paper on a tablet/smartphone.

Ahh, here we go! The strawman comes out to play, because you can't actually contradict the fact that content is being created on a wide scale on mobile devices.

S/He didn't say "writing research papers". The topic was CONTENT CREATION in general. Your reply was to pick one specific thing out of all the content creation activities, and latch onto that. And in fact, people are writing papers using voice recognition software as well as using blutooth keyboards, so your point is not even valid.

Time to give it up, and admit that content creation is increasing moving to mobile.

For what these people are trying to do, edit Word and Excel documents created in the halcyon days of Windows 98, the iPad sucks and most of the Android office suites that I have tried suck even worse than Pages and Numbers do on the iPad. Come to think of it old Word and Excel documents can be a minor nightmare even on non-MS office suites running on full fledged Linux/OS X. Another problem is that the Office suites on iPad/Android are kind of limited. I never create hugely complex documents in Word/Excel and logging into Windows and converting my entire collection of digital antique to the latest MS Office format is a no brainer but apparently these people are digital luddites. What annoys me way more than non-MS office software choking on 15 year old Word files is the inability of the iPad to export documents to USB sticks. Android tablets at least have card slots even if most laptop users don't carry card readers around. The ability to save directly to iCloud storage in OS X and iOS helps but I'd still like to be able to write to USB sticks which have become by far the most ubiquitous form of easily portable storage.

Re:Forget about editing just old Word and PP

[dreamchaser]

My handy Transformer does a solid job of editing documents, more so with the keyboard dock.

Isn't there a word for tablets with keyboard docks? ;)

No, there isn't, because with a laptop you can't detach the screen and use the tablet portion. On the Transformer (I have a Prime) *all* of the computing power is in the tablet portion. The dock is handy for when I want to type and edit documents, and serves as a handy extra battery, but it doesn't make it a laptop. It's also nice being able to take the tablet off the dock to use for playing tablet-centric games, reading ebooks, web surfing, etc.

Re:Forget about editing just old Word and PP

[the_humeister]

Almost nobody. However, Park Chan Wook (the guy who directed Old Boy) did shoot a film using several iPhone 4 devices.

Re:Forget about editing just old Word and PP

[sarysa]

Don't forget the complete lack of sideloading. I know how to quickly setup a Linux or Windows box, and could probably BS an Android tablet with minimal websurfing. For your iPad, expect to pay through the nose.

Re:Forget about editing just old Word and PP

[crafty.munchkin]

Interesting thought I just had... if someone held up an ipad in front of me at a concert to record the concert, i would consider it my civil duty to mosh harder with the intent of making them either drop and smash it, or at least put it away so i can see again. Sucks to be short...

Re:Forget about editing just old Word and PP

[Shadow99_1]

Or it's a tablet with a detachable keyboard dock (that includes an extra battery and a less than useful trackpad)... I'd agree it was a 'laptop' if it ran a laptop grade of hardware and could run 'laptop' type OSes and apps... Expectations for 'laptop' are very different then for 'tablet', though I do use my Transformer Prime like a mini-laptop most of the time. I'm actually thankful it's not a real 'laptop' as well, I had the chance to use a atom powered laptop running windows xp the other day that was terribly slow and the battery still died in 2 hours... Not an experience I want to repeat.

Re:Forget about editing just old Word and PP

[ozmanjusri]

And in any case, a keyboard dock is only another $100.

I just plug in a USB hub and HDMI out if I want to use my Transformer with a full-sized keyboard, mouse and screen. Works fine with the $80 Novo 7 tablet as well.

Total cost around $10 for the hub and leads.

There's a LOT of people here who are really precious about their tools. Frankly, with very rare exceptions, if you can't be productive with Polaris or Kingsoft on Android, you probably won't be productive anywhere.

Re:Forget about editing just old Word and PP

[Tough Love]

Tablets make a great spoon and terrible kitchen tool. They're good for consuming, but not much else.

Not true. My Xoom has proved to be an excellent communication device: audio, video (Google Talk) and with a bluetooth keyboard, text chat. The only thing holding it back for editing is software. That will change as soon as LibreOffice comes out. The tablet also makes a perfectly usable terminal for remote administration work, which I have done often. Ssh is well supported.

Remember, the IBM PC was originally intended to be a toy to compete with the Apple II. Transforming it into something useful was purely a matter of software.

Re:Forget about editing just old Word and PP

[blade8086]

Noooooo a captcha!!!!!

Re:Forget about editing just old Word and PP

[Tough Love]

The heralded death of the notebook was a bit premature apparently.

It's not very far away. I don't normally even bother to take a laptop with me now when I travel, just a tablet and bluetooth keyboard. Lately, a bluetooth mouse as well which works nearly perfectly (some tablet apps wrongly assume that scrolling will only ever be via the touch screen). Of course there are some things the laptop can do that the tablet can't (yet) but this is more than made up for by the fact that the whole thing weighs half as much and runs on batteries three times as long.

Re:Forget about editing just old Word and PP

[Wild_dog!]

In reference simply to the article about schools:

1. Sideloading: .....Why would generalized sideloading be needed in schools exactly? Tablets in this environment are learning tools which have programs and information which will be pertinent to the classroom and its needs. They are for classroom use. Functionality for transfer of information would be setup within the school specific apps and network.

2. iPad Setup: For a school you create a deployment profile, as you would in any business or enterprise and manage all of the schools ipads using that. You can make profiles for specific grades or even specific classes if teachers want to manage their own profiles. You can allow or disallow certain functionality, put all the apps you want for each class or grade, add all the texts, work assignments, etc. New assignments can be uploaded to appropriate devices as needed. Lessons completed would get forwarded for grading.

I'm not sure that managing profiles for schools would be costly at all when you can do it quickly and centrally for all iPads in the system.

Re:Forget about editing just old Word and PP

[RazorSharp]

Like this thing and a keyboard?

Re:Forget about editing just old Word and PP

[TheSeatOfMyPants]

Another problem is that the Office suites on iPad/Android are kind of limited.

If they're "limited" for MS Office, at least they exist -- the most I've found for handling OpenOffice Writer files is a half-finished viewer written by a student a couple of years ago.

Re:Forget about editing just old Word and PP

[Spaseboy]

Android is really just missing the desktop-style apps. Everything about the OS and the hardware lends itself to be a more than competent netbook replacement device but too many application authors are trying to ape iOS concepts.

Re:Forget about editing just old Word and PP

[jovius]

Well, JazzMutant Lemur (http://www.jazzmutant.com/) was a touch screen controller before the iPads, and now it's available for the iPad as an app. So that's something where there really isn't difference except maybe in the sturdiness of the device.

Re:Forget about editing just old Word and PP

[petsounds]

You're calling The Flaming Lips a "local band"? You have no idea what you're talking about.

Re:Forget about editing just old Word and PP

[wvmarle]

Currently I'm looking for a new netbook - I regularly find myself having spare time, which I would like to use to do some work, which is mostly e-mail and simple document editing. I know people do that on a tablet, but as many people here will argue it misses a keyboard.

Now browsing some web sites on info on current netbooks, which by now are far evolved from the underpowered EEPC 701 to include 250GB or more hard disks and high-res screens, I see quite some sites that claim "netbooks are a dying breed". I really wonder if that's so. Isn't there a market for laptops that don't break your back when carrying them around, that are reasonably sturdy, and fit in a smallish bag?

Re:Forget about editing just old Word and PP

[wvmarle]

Spoken like someone who's never tried to write a research paper on a tablet/smartphone.

I think a conservative estimate would be that some 95% of the general population has never written a research paper in their life, and will never do so.

Re:Forget about editing just old Word and PP

[ModernGeek]

Great for mindlessly consuming garbage content? Sounds perfect for American K-12 schools.

Re:Forget about editing just old Word and PP

[bemymonkey]

How're you liking the software part in terms of compatibility? Whenever I try to open a previously created Word document (usually reports or specs) on an Android device, the software pretty much kills my formatting, and if I edit and then save on the Android device, I need to go back and fix everything manually the next time I'm on a laptop (which sucks!). That's pretty much killed all my notions of using Android devices for anything productive...

Re:Forget about editing just old Word and PP

[Savage-Rabbit]

Another problem is that the Office suites on iPad/Android are kind of limited.

If they're "limited" for MS Office, at least they exist -- the most I've found for handling OpenOffice Writer files is a half-finished viewer written by a student a couple of years ago.

Yeah, when my mom brought me her Android tablet and wanted me to find an app to wiew and edit Office docs my first thought was that somebody must have ported a trimmed down version of Libre Office to Android but... no such luck. You'll be glad to know Libre Office is being ported to Android, no joy for iOS users like me though

:-(

http://liliputing.com/2012/07/libreoffice-coming-to-android-heres-what-it-looks-like-so-far.html

Re:Forget about editing just old Word and PP

[Joce640k]

If they had an easy option to plug in a keyboard and a stand to hold the screen up, they would essentially *be* a laptop.

For only twice the price! ...and with a small screen, no removable storage and a pain to carry around.

Re:Forget about editing just old Word and PP

[Shadow99_1]

Personally Polaris Office (with comes on my transformer prime) does a pretty reliable job of doing word, excel, etc documents. Though I've found google docs actually does a better job, though I need to use the website version as the version built into google drive on android is next to useless (It doesn't even understand what page breaks are). However I can run the full desktop version of the googledocs site on my tablet in chrome just fine and that seems to have nigh perfect word compatibility.

Re:Forget about editing just old Word and PP

[moronoxyd]

You may want to check out SoftMaker Office. Currently only available from the company's website, but soonish also in the Play Store.

Re:Forget about editing just old Word and PP

[PopeRatzo]

Hmm, well Steven Drozd of The Flaming Lips is using a lot of these music apps that -- according to you -- suck really bad

Might that have something to do with a hipster artist trying to stay relevant with a target audience?

The iPad is a lot more popular than Flaming Lips. Lots of artists are looking for a little extra cachet.

Re:Forget about editing just old Word and PP

[ajo_arctus]

Spoken like someone who has never paired a bluetooth keyboard with their tablet/smartphone. If you're typing and you need a keyboard, use a keyboard.

Re:Forget about editing just old Word and PP

[aurispector]

SO true.

Seriously, touch is at it's beginning and we're still figuring out how best to use it. The current Ipad is not the be all and end all of touch interfaces. The mouse and keyboard paradigm survives because it works really well. Touch as an adjunct to that is awesome. By itself not so much.

But out of all those goofy apps could come innovation in how touch interfaces SHOULD work. Eventually these things will work themselves out and not disappear like a fart in the wind.

Re:Forget about editing just old Word and PP

[Talderas]

So you require a keyboard to make it an excellent device for editing. Why would you go with a tablet + external keyboard over a laptop which has the keyboard integrated and has much better editing support?

Re:Forget about editing just old Word and PP

[Anonymous Coward]

Perhaps part of the problem is that the product is being sold as one that needs no training. It's so intuitive, so ground breaking that any idiot can use it in a useful way for whatever he/she wants to do. That's the sales pitch. Throw in the price of training along with the implication that it's not as easy to use as it's been sold and all of a sudden it's not as attractive of a proposal.

Re:Forget about editing just old Word and PP

[aaarrrgggh]

While ubiquity has great value, things like GoodReader on the iPad can be used to move documents around quite easily wirelessly. Not perfect, but pretty darn good, and I don't have to find one of those "ubiquitous" USB sticks...

Re:Forget about editing just old Word and PP

[Phisbut]

If they had an easy option to plug in a keyboard and a stand to hold the screen up, they would essentially *be* a laptop. I only see that kind of thing in the Android market.

Then what's the point of getting a tablet if you're just gonna turn it into a laptop...

Re:Forget about editing just old Word and PP

[cHiphead]

What, no mention of being tied to the App Store and a specific apple ID? No mention of only being able to use apple 'approved' apps on the ipad?

There are seriously deficient IT integration considerations from the get-go with an iPad, the only reason to even consider implementation in the first place is if Apple shows up at your door with a dumptruck full of free iPads.

Re:Forget about editing just old Word and PP

[immaterial]

No, no mention because neither of these are problems when using the enterprise deployment system, where you can push apps (including non-apple-approved apps; or did you think every large company has to make their in-house apps available through the App Store?) to your iPads regardless of Apple ID (which can be the institution's ID or personal IDs or a mix, depending on whether you want your users to be able to buy their own apps too).

As I said before, large scale deployments in schools need the proper setup and support; if you drop a sack of iPads on a teacher and try to manage them all individually like a home user you're just making trouble for yourself. There are powerful first- and third-party tools to manage large-scale deployments and schools should be using them.

Re:Forget about editing just old Word and PP

[Tough Love]

The tablet weighs half as much and has three times the battery. Plus, the touch interface grows on you. When switching back to the desktop I often catch myself reaching out to touch the screen.

Re:Forget about editing just old Word and PP

[okcdan]

Love the idea! Turning an iPad into Apple sauce in a mosh pit....nice.

Re:Forget about editing just old Word and PP

[DeadS0ul]

They don't make use of AirPlay mirroring?

Re:Forget about editing just old Word and PP

[Tablizer]

Both-ativity

Re:Forget about editing just old Word and PP

[RockDoctor]

The mouse and keyboard paradigm survives because it works really well. Touch as an adjunct to that is awesome.

... as my favourite computing device of all time, the Psion 5, ably demonstrated.

They stopped making the Psion 5 series in about 2000 ; you can't even get them from ebaY now (There were a couple of technical problems - rather delicate screens and a flexible cable that dies after a few 10s of thousands of openings - that have steadily eaten the ebaY supply of unwanted gifts etc.)

What is this thing called progress? Can we have some, please?

What were they expecting?

[Anonymous Coward]

An ipad is a toy. A laptop is a tool. Idiots.

Re:What were they expecting?

[AaronLS]

This speaks to the fact that every time I hear someone wanting an iPad at the workplace, it is accompanied by a big grin. They want a toy. They are not even thinking through how they would accomplish their day to day work with an iPad instead of a desktop/laptop.

Re:What were they expecting?

[Anne_Nonymous]

>> ...how they would accomplish their day to day work with an iPad...

I can browse /. on an iPad just fine, thanks very much.

Re:What were they expecting?

[gid]

Yeah, but typing more than a sentence or two will make me go bald.

Re:What were they expecting?

[peragrin]

I know dozen of people who use an iPad for 70% of their work.

of course 70% of their work isn't creating or editing data, but taking random notes, shooting off quick emails so other people can do the work, etc.

These people are called salesmen (and women). their job is to talk to people and make other people do the real work for them. Teachers don't need ipads(at least until they get the display problems sorted out).

Teachers need laptops as they create more content than they consume. (at least professionally)

Re:What were they expecting?

[Anne_Nonymous]

Based to your UID, you're probably already bald.

Re:What were they expecting?

[Anubis IV]

An ipad is a toy. A laptop is a tool. Idiots.

And as someone at a software consulting company that expanded from offering specialized, one-off Win/Mac applications for multinational engineering firms to also offering specialized iOS apps for those same firms and for many of those same purposes, I cordially disagree with your assertion that the iPad is not a tool. In fact, I'd say that you're very wrong. That said, it is not as general purpose of a tool as a laptop, nor should it be shoehorned into places where it has no business being.

At home, I'm a big fan of Apple products, and I love using my iPad for reading, e-mail, web browsing, and some light gaming, but when people ask me what to get in regards to any piece of technology, my first question is always, "What will you use it for?" It sounds like the person with the purchasing power in this story didn't start with that vital question, instead getting caught up in the hype. The result is a lot of well-deserved backlash from the end users. In plenty of other situations, however, the iPad can indeed be the correct answer for what tool best fits the situation.

The key takeaway should be that you should always use the right tool for the job. For what the teachers were doing here, the iPad sounds like it was not the right tool at all. That's not always true, but it oftentimes is, since the iPad has a specific set of limitations and advantages that make it a poor fit for many existing (particularly text entry) workflows, but make it a great fit for others.

Re:What were they expecting?

[Anonymous Coward]

You do realize you just further emphasized his point, right? An iPad is good for consuming content, not creating content... what you mention here is the consumption of content in the form of an ebook. Try typing a document on your iPad.

Re:What were they expecting?

[locopuyo]

Unless you want eye cancer iPads are terrible for reading books. An eReader with an e-Ink display is a million times better. And the "retina display" isn't all that special either. The resolution is good but that is it. The color gamut and contrast are mediocre at best.
Multi-touch applications for painting and arranging photos? You really are going to drag individual photos with your fingers to arrange them or navigate through some other gimmicky interface to arrange your photos? It doesn't feel more natural it feels like inefficient grunt work.

Re:What were they expecting?

[snowraver1]

How is fingerpainting or moving pictures around creating anything of value?

Re:What were they expecting?

[shugah]

They may not want a toy, but they probably want something that boots immediately and is more portable.

For some people, who do not need to create content, a tablet could work. The problem is iPad not tablet. Android based tablets actually have a file system and allow you to transfer content to/from them without going through some silly iCloud.

Re:What were they expecting?

[93 Escort Wagon]

An ipad is a toy. A laptop is a tool. Idiots.

Anyone who makes a blanket statement like that is an idio... oh wait.

But you're wrong. An iPad can be a very good tool - for the right job. A friend of mine is an appraiser. He and his co-workers used to lug these gigantic Windows laptops around as they visited properties. For the past year, though, they've been using iPads and a custom app - and the things are darn near perfect for the task (which, as I understand it, mainly involves entering various specs into forms, looking up comparable properties, and taking photos).

If I had to edit documents, I wouldn't pick an iPad over a computer - period. But just because it's the wrong tool for that job doesn't mean it's the wrong tool for every job.

Re:What were they expecting?

[AK Marc]

It's not a replacement, it's an augmentation. Check email anywhere. Have your calendar everywhere. Take e-notes in meetings, directly in the documents in question, rather than scribbling on paper and either editing them into the document later or discarding them after essentially memorizing the content.

That they'll also be playing Angry Birds on the bus ride is the smile. But there are plenty that use iPads for work. I know one network administrator that swears by his ipad with Ethernet dongle.

Re:What were they expecting?

[Provocateur]

Nonsense...it's all just growing on the wrong end of his face

Re:What were they expecting?

[WindBourne]

Face? Heck no. Wrong side of the body.

Re:What were they expecting?

[16K Ram Pack]

This is what I can never get about this "great media consumption device". At best, it does a lot of different media consumption quite badly, meaning that you still can't replace all the dedicated devices.

It'll play MP3s, but you can't exactly use it down a gym. It'll play movies, but a 10" screen with no stand isn't as good as a laptop, let alone a 32" TV. It'll give you eBooks but a kindle is far easier to read

A laptop is actually a better "media consumption device". Larger screen, self-supporting. Every single service that can give you content on an iPad is also available on a PC, and a PC allows you to watch a load of internet media that you can't get on an iPad. You can watch a Blu-Ray or DVD. You can plug in your movie library via USB. You have far more storage space. If you want to put it on a TV, you need nothing more than an HDMI cable.

Re:What were they expecting?

[jockm]

I mean, thank god people don't use their phones for that kind of thing...

Re:What were they expecting?

[duk242]

News Flash: LCD screens cause eye cancer.

Re:What were they expecting?

[oztiks]

Speaking as an appliance seller iPads can be used as tools, provided the functions are light and not laborious and the interface is built for iPads.

Re:What were they expecting?

[exomondo]

Well said! That's the reason i got rid of my ipad, for every thing it could do it always seemed my phone, laptop or TV did an equal - or in most cases, better - job of it. And certainly re-encoding video to get it on there because it doesn't support particular formats is something you shouldn't have to deal with.

Re:What were they expecting?

[Wild_dog!]

Yep.... I concur.
Great things can be done with tablets that can't be done by clunky laptops or awkward netbooks in certain settings.
Sounds like the biggest gripe with tablets is they stink at document input. If that is all it is then I'm sure that someone could come up with something specifically built around document entry which would be far better than a laptop. Laptops are general purpose tools.
Tablets are general purpose tools also, at this point they may have some deficits in certain areas that laptops can do fine at. But Tablets are better than laptops in some areas as well.
Education and medicine are 2 areas where tablets really shine.

Re:What were they expecting?

[guruevi]

So do iPad's, they have a file system and any app worth it's salt should be able to access it and set up a sync between your computer or a server. There is also WebDAV support for local file shares.

The problem is that these iPad's weren't setup or monitored or even researched. They were just replaced, nobody concerned themselves with how it would actually integrate with legacy components, nobody concerned themselves with how it would be set up and distributed. The fact that they have issues with the AppleTV system alone shows that they didn't research it. The AppleTV solution is one of the most solid and least taxing wireless streaming devices I have ever seen (and I have experience with the most expensive solutions from Cisco and Tandberg as well as cheap products like wireless VGA and USB crap) but if you think that everyone will be streaming 1080p over a single 802.11b/g router, well physics still apply to Apple products.

This "project" would be akin to giving everybody in the school a C64 or Amiga back in the day, sure it was great tech but most didn't know how to use it correctly besides for games or their specific application. Just throwing money at teachers won't help them get the job done any better. You can see the same problem with 'digital' whiteboards, e-books for students, online testing, Blackboard, ... - if the teachers don't know how to use them it's just a big waste of money.

Re:What were they expecting?

[guruevi]

You know that MS Office is available for Mac's as well? The fact that Microsoft is notoriously bad at supporting their own document formats across versions (even on the same platform) is not because the platform is bad, you just have really shitty software.

Just because you and your company is bad at support and not knowledgeable about anything doesn't mean x is a bad choice. It just means that you are in a big corporation and half your team should probably be fired.

If your software cannot survive a platform switch (whether that be WinXP->Win7 or SCO Linux -> Mac) you have made a bad choice in purchasing that software and it should probably not exist.

Re:What were they expecting?

[flargleblarg]

Unless you want eye cancer iPads are terrible for reading books

Well, I strenuously disagree with you on that. I love my iPad 3 for reading books. I use the GoodReader app — it's awesome. I like it better than my Kindle and actually I like it better than physical books.

An eReader with an e-Ink display is a million times better.

I have to disagree with you on that. All the e-ink displays I've ever seen have rather poor resolution, and even the best ones have lower contrast than a paper page. For reading text, the iPad 3 smokes the pants off any e-ink display I've seen. If you're worried about brightness, you can simply turn the brightness down. In my experience, it's just as comfortable as paper for reading if the brightness is adjusted to match the ambient light reflection levels of paper.

And the "retina display" isn't all that special either. The resolution is good but that is it. The color gamut and contrast are mediocre at best.

I vehemently disagree on that. My iPad 3's color gamut is amazing. It's the crispest, most colorful LCD screen I've ever had the pleasure to use. The colors are incredible. Deep blues, bright reds, gorgeous purples and greens. Extremely high contrast.

Multi-touch applications for painting and arranging photos? You really are going to drag individual photos with your fingers to arrange them or navigate through some other gimmicky interface to arrange your photos? It doesn't feel more natural it feels like inefficient grunt work.

I myself haven't done this, but I know people who have, and they seem to enjoy it. It's more intuitive for some people than using a mouse.

Re:What were they expecting?

[flargleblarg]

This is what I can never get about this "great media consumption device". At best, it does a lot of different media consumption quite badly, meaning that you still can't replace all the dedicated devices.

The iPad is actually quite good at playing videos. The problem, in my personal opinion, is that it doesn't support very many media types. For example, I have to transcode any MKV file into an M4V file to play it on my iPad. But it does play quite nicely — and using the HDMI output to send it to a TV is quite nice too. (Damn adapter is too expensive, though.)

It'll play MP3s, but you can't exactly use it down a gym. It'll play movies, but a 10" screen with no stand isn't as good as a laptop, let alone a 32" TV. It'll give you eBooks but a kindle is far easier to read

In terms of screen size, it all depends on your viewing distance. The iPad 3 plays 1080p content in all its glory — no downsizing. If you view that from 18" away, it's the same as viewing a 32" TV from 5 feet away, in terms of picture size. I was surprised how comfortable it felt for me to watch movies on my iPad on an airplane, for example.

A laptop is actually a better "media consumption device". Larger screen, self-supporting. Every single service that can give you content on an iPad is also available on a PC, and a PC allows you to watch a load of internet media that you can't get on an iPad. You can watch a Blu-Ray or DVD. You can plug in your movie library via USB. You have far more storage space. If you want to put it on a TV, you need nothing more than an HDMI cable.

You can do all this with an iPad. You can output video with an HDMI cable to a tv from an iPad. I've done it.

You can also watch Blu-Ray and DVD movies on an iPad — after transcoding them. They play quite nicely.

Re:What were they expecting?

[flargleblarg]

I forgot to say that if you were talking about the iPad 2, then I would totally agree with you... The iPad 2 sucks for reading. The iPad 3, however, is heavenly.

Re:What were they expecting?

[Phroggy]

An ipad is a toy. A laptop is a tool. Idiots.

An iPad can ALSO be a tool, but it's a different tool that is great at different things. To borrow another poster's analogy, a kitchen knife is a great tool, but I'm not gonna use one for eating soup. Conversely, slicing a ham with a spoon is probably about as much fun as writing a paper on an iPad.

Re:What were they expecting?

[tibit]

Multi-touch applications for painting and arranging photos? You really are going to drag individual photos with your fingers to arrange them or navigate through some other gimmicky interface to arrange your photos? It doesn't feel more natural it feels like inefficient grunt work.

As opposed to dragging a mouse with your arm, and using that to arrange your photos? Or, perhaps, typing a lot of mv or exiftool invocations from the commandline to do the same?! Or do you use a MIDI foot pedal set to arrange your photos? Because I sure as heck don't get your point, if there is one.

Re:What were they expecting?

[tibit]

Well ten, how is snapping family pics creating anything of value? You see, that's the problem with arguments such as yours. You place no value on having your photo collection organized, others don't share that viewpoint. It's OK, it's doesn't have to create anything of value to you.

Re:What were they expecting?

[craznar]

No - an iPad is a tool, a Laptop is a tool - they are just tools for different jobs.

Using an iPad as a laptop is like using a fork to cut steak - you can do it, but it takes a bit of work.

Re:What were they expecting?

[exomondo]

You can do all this with an iPad.

You obviously can't play dvd or bluray, and unless you've jailbroken it you can't connect a usb hard drive to play your movies off.

Re:What were they expecting?

[locopuyo]

Then you haven't used very good LCDs. The color gamut is noticeably inferior next to my 5 year old LCD and is laughable next to my sub $200 LED monitor. Yes, I am talking about the iPad "3". Maybe you are comparing it to the mac displays that are 5 years behind in technology but priced like they are 5 years ahead.

I would never read a book on a nasty glossy screen like that. They should impose sin taxes on these screens to compensate for the higher insurance rates everyone has to pay because of the eye cancer.

Re:What were they expecting?

[JosKarith]

We're having to deliver and support a limited number of iPads at work now - invariably the recipient is some waste-of-dna middle manager who then spends the next few days gleefully showing everyone the funky things the iPad can do to drive the point home that s/he was important enough to swing getting one. After that it just sits there on their desk, while s/he gets on with some real work on the laptop PC they invariably have. A toy, not a tool.

Re:What were they expecting?

[Gonoff]

It's not a replacement, it's an augmentation. Check email anywhere. Have your calendar everywhere. Take e-notes in meetings, directly in the documents in question, rather than scribbling on paper and either editing them into the document later or discarding them after essentially memorizing the content.

That sounds like things my phone is good at. Those tasks are content consumption, not creation.

Re:What were they expecting?

[Gonoff]

News Flash [Citation Required]

If you cannot provide one, this will prove that your information is the nonsense it sounds like.

Re:What were they expecting?

[Kokkie]

A tablet is a tool too. Its great for reading, reading e-mails, technical documents can be productive too. Its portability, form factor and battery make it great for special purposes (i use one for WMS puposes in the warehouse). Many commenters will also be able to enlighten you about how it helped them with their needs. And the portability advantages can outweigh the lack of keyboard disadvantages for some. Its not because some people bought them because of a fad, many companies failed to create a decent strategy and app portfolio to aid their business processes and some people are too stupid to figure out their potential that you can generalise the uselessness of tablets. And don't forget that a tablet can be a great tool for the purpose of entertaining yourself and fighting boring moments during waiting times (travel, dentist waitingroom,...) (ps sorry for my english)

Re:What were they expecting?

[AK Marc]

Then don't get a pad, you pompous prick. Not everyone has your personal preferences. And I didn't say pads are good for creation, but taking notes and checking email is creation, so in addition to addressing something I didn't say, you were factually wrong as well.

Re:What were they expecting?

[flargleblarg]

Then you haven't used very good LCDs. The color gamut is noticeably inferior next to my 5 year old LCD and is laughable next to my sub $200 LED monitor.

What make/model? I'd like to go check one out in the store and see for myself. By the way, when you say "LED" do you mean LED-backlit LCD display, or actual LED display?

Yes, I am talking about the iPad "3". Maybe you are comparing it to the mac displays that are 5 years behind in technology but priced like they are 5 years ahead.

I'm comparing the color gamut to other Apple displays, yes. Also the iPad 3 to the iPad 2. The iPad 3 has significantly better colors than the iPad 2.

I would never read a book on a nasty glossy screen like that.

I notice absolutely no glare when I'm reading on my iPad. That's because the background "paper" is bright white. I also don't try to read outdoors.

They should impose sin taxes on these screens to compensate for the higher insurance rates everyone has to pay because of the eye cancer.

Ha. Eye cancer, huh? Care to back up that claim with a citation?

Re:What were they expecting?

[flargleblarg]

You obviously can't play dvd or bluray, and unless you've jailbroken it you can't connect a usb hard drive to play your movies off.

Correct. You can't directly play DVD or Blu-Ray movies on an iPad. However, they play quite nicely on an iPad after transcoding them with HandBrake. It's not difficult.

Re:What were they expecting?

[flargleblarg]

You do realize you just further emphasized his point, right?

Not at all. His point was calling the iPad a toy — which is absolutely is not.

An iPad is good for consuming content, not creating content... what you mention here is the consumption of content in the form of an ebook. Try typing a document on your iPad.

Typing on an iPad sucks, IMHO, using the on-screen keyboard. Typing on it using a BlueTooth keyboard isn't bad. At that point, you're probably better off having a laptop computer, though. However, this still doesn't make an iPad a toy. Nor is the Kindle a toy. The issue of consumption vs. creation has nothing to do with whether or not a device is a toy.

Re:What were they expecting?

[flargleblarg]

How is fingerpainting or moving pictures around creating anything of value?

You know what? I'll tell you something... Every person is different. Just because it isn't of value to you doesn't mean it's not of value to others.

Re:What were they expecting?

[Wovel]

Lol. So having a filesystem defines what a tablet is. I guess that means the iPad has 100% of the non-tablet market. (About 84 million devices) and Kindle has 90% of the tablet market (about 10 million devices).

Makes sense to me.

Re:What were they expecting?

[Wovel]

Pretty sure the GP is the tool.

Re:What were they expecting?

[Wovel]

Just copy the movies onto it?

Re:What were they expecting?

[exomondo]

Just copy the movies onto it?

Why? The i need a computer to copy them across with - and not just any computer, it has to be the one i've synced with - the logical thing would be to just support USB. The fact is it can't play movies off a usb hard drive.

when real learning needs to be done

[bob zee]

you sure don't grab a toy. you grab the tool that works.
sometimes you have to pay twice to learn this.

Re:when real learning needs to be done

[DickBreath]

Why is this modded down?

Oh, yes, because Slashdot is now overrun by fanboys of various stripes.

Re:when real learning needs to be done

[mikestew]

It wasn't modded down, he has crappy karma and starts at -1.

Re:when real learning needs to be done

[jfengel]

I wondered why that should be, so I clicked on the page and the first thing I saw was this:

http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3099809&cid=41255213

Yes, I can see why the person who would post that might find his karma in the dumps. Most comments are actually quite reasonable. Others, not so much.

Re:when real learning needs to be done

[AK Marc]

It wasn't modded down. And the author of the comment is an anti-Apple troll who deserves to be modded down. Everyone is a fanboy. How many people do you know that don't root for any sports team, and don't ever shop based on brand? I'm guessing the answer is zero, even if you may prefer to invent a different answer.

Re:when real learning needs to be done

[Overzeetop]

And I suspect that by 2040, they will have most of the kinks worked out of tablet interaction.

Creation vs Consumption

[Anonymous Coward]

And these are the people paid to educate our children?

Re:Creation vs Consumption

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, their beef is not really pay. It's things like Air conditioning in classrooms.

But who needs AC in classroom with 40 kids right?

rich schools?

[Anonymous Coward]

I dont know if Apple gives schools good deals... but in my kids kindergarten class there are 5 Macbooks and 5 ipads per class... on the other hand they are begging for tissues, sanitizer, crayons, paper and whatever the daily need is...

Re:rich schools?

[SuricouRaven]

They do give schools a discount, but it's not huge. They market to schools, of course, but Microsoft does the same.

Re:rich schools?

[Jeng]

Pay for the unnecessary but expensive things first, then go crying that you need money for necessities. This is a common practice in many organizations. Supposedly the first thing that would go up at a new base is the officers club since if it was the last money wouldn't be allocated to it.

Re:rich schools?

[Nerdfest]

You can bet the person in charge of purchasing those has a couple of 'demo' macbooks and ipads at home.

Re:rich schools?

[Mabhatter]

Many schools have separate funding for "operations" and "infrastructure" now. You can go to the tax payers and ask for a whole school of new computers... And legally can't spend one dime of that to not layoff a teacher.

Re:rich schools?

[Waccoon]

Pay for the unnecessary but expensive things first, then go crying that you need money for necessities. This is a common practice in many organizations

And the reason why this is tolerated is because society as a whole is like this.

Re:rich schools?

[tibit]

Ta-da!

Re:rich schools?

[Osgeld]

my dad bitched about this back when I was in school

"what you can afford an entire room full of 3000$ macs that the students are not allowed to use, but your begging me for a box of tissues and a roll of paper towels?"

this was back in the early 90's, and it stuck with me ... what you can afford to give your teachers a raise AND an iPad, but I have to buy my kids tissues? How about I send him with a travel pack, and you get your head out of your ass.

Citrix?

[Naatach]

Stand up a XenApp server and load the Citrix Receiver.

Re:Citrix?

[tnk1]

I have an Asus Transformer, so in theory, I could get the keyboard dock to fix the entry issue. There is also the option for Bluetooth keyboards for tablets as well. It's extra money and weight, but it's weight that can be separated from the tablet for in the event you just want to view things with it.

I'm not going to pretend that I'd prefer to use my tablet for most content creation, but it is not impossible to use in place of something like a Netbook. In fact, that's sort of what the Transformer is with the keyboard dock.

I have to admit that it is not something I'd hand a non-technical teacher to use in place of a laptop or a desktop. You still need a PC of some sort as a mothership, but it is very handy if you know how to use it to get things done. I wouldn't have bought mine if I thought it was going to be a toy. I tend to wait to see what uses the early adopters put their new stuff to before I get mine.

Re:Citrix?

[Wild_dog!]

Yep..... the iPad bluetooth keyboards work fine for data entry. Not sure what the fuss is.
I have a much harder time with my old Dell netbook. The keys are a pain being only 94% of normal. Plus they just don't work as well as these chiclet type keyboards for me anymore.

Let this be a lesson

[Dracos]

... to every organization with staff: tablets are for consumption, not production. If your staff will have the regular need to create or edit anything more complex than an email, it will be a chore on a tablet, if not impossible, regardless of whether the tablet can load files from a thumbdrive or over a network.

This story supports my position that tablets are stupid except for a very few vertical business markets, and will go away faster than netbooks once people can see past the hype.

Re:Let this be a lesson

[Desler]

And yet Adobe and Autodesk make software for production on tablets. The users of GarageBand would also probably disagree with you as well.

Re:Let this be a lesson

[Firehed]

No - tablets just aren't good for long-form writing (which happens to be very common at schools). I use mine for content creation all the time... just not stuff where I'd want a keyboard (anything more than two paragraphs).

Re:Let this be a lesson

[vonwilkenstein]

The users of GarageBand would also probably disagree with you as well.

As a user of Garageband, I do not. I can not connect my firewire audio interface to an ipad.

Re:Let this be a lesson

[Zadaz]

This story supports my position that tablets are stupid except for a very few vertical business markets, and will go away faster than netbooks once people can see past the hype.

I think you vastly underestimate the market for pure consumption. The average American family spends over $1500 a year on TV and television subscription fees.

Re:Let this be a lesson

[jedidiah]

Garage Band is like it's name: a toy for people that play around at being a musician in their garage. It's not a real productivity tool. It's just a loss leader and something that fanboys can mindlessly drone on about as if it actually has any relevance.

Re:Let this be a lesson

[BasilBrush]

... to every organization with staff: tablets are for consumption, not production.

No, that's not where the cut-off is.

Tablets are not good at text entry and editing. They're great for lots of other things, both consumption and production. Better than a laptop for a lot of them. For example sketching, filling out forms that are mostly checkboxes or multiple choice, grabbing a photograph to go with data, creating music.

Re:Let this be a lesson

[Glendale2x]

Tablets are also good for basic diagnostic work. The last AT&T tech I saw do an install used an iPad to VPN home and run a bunch of predefined diagnostics and view the result, finish out the order and other stuff like that instead of the old paper way. No need to pull out a full laptop for no reason. Ironically the iPad was crippled by AT&T's 3G data (lack of) service.

It sounds like the school with the IT illiterate staff just went for the iPad because it was an iPad. They likely overruled or ignored warnings from the IT guy that supports them, but now that they can see the difference between it and a full laptop they're having buyer's remorse.

Re:Let this be a lesson

[Dracos]

And I should add, all the kids who got iPads from their schools are finding many of the same limitations that these teachers did.

Re:Let this be a lesson

[antdude]

At least a netbook is like a laptop/notebook just smaller and more limited, but still better than a tablet.

Re:Let this be a lesson

[Solandri]

This story supports my position that tablets are stupid except for a very few vertical business markets, and will go away faster than netbooks once people can see past the hype.

I disagree. Tablets are poised to take over the biggest market in business - eventually they're going to replace clipboards. Why print stuff out and carry it in a clipboard or folder? Why write stuff down on paper, just so you can do double data entry and type it into a computer when you get back at your desk? Just carry a tablet and cut out a step both ways. Such a device is so useful that Fedex and UPS commissioned their own versions for their drivers to carry around while doing deliveries.

It's only when you try to replace general purpose computers/laptops with tablets that you get yourself in trouble. Tablets make a great supplement to a computer, but are not a replacement. The $500+ tablet is a dead end, except as a high-end entertainment device. But the low-end tablets are going to take over the business world. As they approach $100, watch out. They have a real shot at ushering in the oft talked about paperless office.

Re:Let this be a lesson

[Farmer Tim]

So nobody wants something a bit better than a cassette 4 track for demos and they all want to wrangle ProTools or CuBase instead of concentrating on writing, this album doesn't exist, and I didn't write and produce three TV theme tunes and two commercial jingles with it (despite normally using Digital Performer).

Good to see elitist snobbery isn't an exclusive Apple product.

(And FWIW I think iPads are the wrong device for schools)

Re:Let this be a lesson

[lightknight]

Why yes, using something like Garage Band, you have a veritable Skrillex on his way up. That's how the big music producers do it this day -> no studios with expensive sound engineers and noise dampening material; it's all done on an iPad with Garage Band.

*puts on a posh hat and monocle, then sniffs the air* And given the quality of the music they've been putting out lately, that last sentence may not even be sarcasm.

Re:Let this be a lesson

[lightknight]

And the lawsuits for carpal tunnel and RSI will shoot through the roof. There will be so many of them that you will have to put out a want ad for a lawyer, and wait several months in his queue.

While I think tablets are neat, I do realize that their limitations relegate themselves to a toy for the next 5 or 6 years. And wherever I go, I'll be dragging a proper keyboard with me.

Re:Let this be a lesson

[Wild_dog!]

But don't lots of people do demo's and stuff using Garageband?
When people are starting out and cutting corners because they don't have a lot of cash, then garage band may be just what they need.
Plus.... cutting demo's could be considered making actual content and thus it makes garageband a productivity tool for some people I would guess.
You may be higher up on the food chain however.

Re:Let this be a lesson

[pipedwho]

You can if you get a Firewire to Thunderbolt adapter.

Re:Let this be a lesson

[Dracos]

Tablets are poised to take over the biggest market in business - eventually they're going to replace clipboards.

That is precisely the narrow vertical markets I described above. Also, the current tablet hype omits any mention of tablets replacing general purpose computers/laptops, leaving most people to assume they can. That's where the trouble starts.

I can't see tablets being useful for much outside of intranet applications. Word processing and spreadsheets would be nightmarish on tablets; projecting PowerPoint presentations would be a herculean task. Tablets will bring efficiency only to those tasks to which they are suited (being digital clipboards) and nothing else.

Re:Let this be a lesson

[tibit]

Try dictation. It works quite well for me.

Re:Let this be a lesson

[Wovel]

Nothing herculean about presenting a power point tablet from an iPad. Particularly if you make one that works in Keynote. Even better if you have an iPhone to use as a remote. The iPad has HDMI and VGA interfaces (and ATV Mirroring).

95% of powerpoint comes out fine in Keynote. I have never seen one that took more than 10 minutes to fix,

Re:Let this be a lesson

[Wovel]

You should just ignore him. He is simply being contrary. He knows nothing about making music. Just finding things to respond to negatively.

Re:Android

[joeflies]

The story states the issue is compatibility with Office documents. Perhaps Windows 8-powered tablets was what you meant to say.

difficulties

[Sez Zero]

Difficulties editing old Word and PowerPoint documents...

Their problem is bigger than the iPad in the classroom.

Re:difficulties

[Anonymous Coward]

why because the use the most widely used office tools?

Re:difficulties

[lightknight]

Seriously. I am half-tempted to host a 'build your own PC and get comfortable with it' class, just to do something about it.

But I imagine most corporations, schools, universities, and small countries would balk at my rates (which compare favorably with telephone numbers, the long distance kind; it breaks down to $500 for my actual labor (6 days, 5 hours a day), but then I have to charge for the machine parts, and most importantly, my "I promise on the grave of my forefathers that I shall not smite anyone in this room for the duration of this course, no matter how badly they seem to be asking for it" emotional retainer (which is a fair amount of money, but I am told is well worth it). It takes a supreme amount of buying power these days to keep me in good cheer, mostly do to a variety of seemingly supernatural circumstances. The country doctor, local pharmacist and town brewer are especially skilled at helping me achieve that fabled 'peaceful' mental state.

But yeah, 60 teachers / educators (only people who actually want to be there, better be chipper, but hey, free (extra black) coffee and (jelly-filled, chocolate, french crueller, or blueberry cake) donuts, because I need them to think (which caffeine and copious amounts of sugar will make even the most stubborn individual do)) per session / seminar, in a large lab or warehouse, almost purely hands-on (I'll explain the hardware to you, let you ask whatever questions you like, then walk (each of you, by the hand) them through the process of assembling their machines, then loading the OS / productivity software. And trust me, they will feel free to ask whatever silly questions they want, as they will be surrounded by their own kind with similar questions, and me (of course), who will be placed into a very friendly and relatively 'safe' state by way of their non-refundable deposits.

Re:difficulties

[Wovel]

Huh? You charge some 10 digit number to make a PC? like $1,000,000,000? I could not make the math work for your $500 labor+parts.

You either;

1. Really Over-Pay for parts

or

2. Live in a country with very short phone numbers.

Tablets in education

[Missing.Matter]

I've been using tablets in an educational environment since about 2006. I guess today they would be called Tablet PCs, but they were infinitely more useful in an educational setting for one reason, and it's not that they ran standard PC apps (in fact quite the opposite because most apps were no optimized for touch, etc.). It was the stylus, which most "tablets" lack today. Writing on my tablet with a stylus and being able to archive notes, search handwritten notes, reference supplemental materials and paste them into my notes, etc. were killer applications. The fact that my tablet was convertible also meant that when I needed to, I could set up my tablet PC like a regular laptop with a full monitor, mouse, and keyboard, and use it like any other laptop with fully fledged Office. Many here balked at the Tablet PC then, and continue to balk at the tablet PC now, but it was a hell of a lot more useful for me than my iPad ever was, if not only for the ability to support a proper digitized stylus and robust handwriting recognition.

Tablet PCs today still have major disadvantages, but I'm very intrigued at the new crop of hybrid tablet/laptops coming out from Samsung, Asus, and Microsoft. Transformer prime was half way there, but it still was a very poor laptop substitute in laptop mode (couldn't run full desktop-class apps, mouse support inconsistent across the OS and apps).

Re:Tablets in education

[chinton]

I used tablets in education every year when I was in school. The only time I had trouble editing was when the lead on my stylus broke.

A product is not a solution

[Bogtha]

Difficulties editing old Word and PowerPoint documents, transferring work to and from the device without USB sticks, and problems with projecting the iPad's display to the classroom â" bizarrely, using an Apple TV â" have led to staff once again reaching for their Windows laptops.

The general idea - that you get computer-illiterate staff away from general-purpose computers and onto more appliance-like systems is a good one. More flexibility in the end-users' hands means more difficulties supporting them and more spaghetti work practices.

The problem though, is that it sounds like they thought they could just dump the product on them and their problems would be solved. These people will have had deeply-ingrained workflows that frequently include all manner of hacks and workarounds that have glommed together over the years. If you're going to move them away from that, you need to move their workflows and content too, otherwise they are stuck trying to do the old thing with products that aren't designed for it.

I'm not sure what's so bizarre about using an AppleTV in that way though - it's designed for that purpose and it works great in that kind of situation.

Re:A product is not a solution

[amicusNYCL]

I'm not sure what's so bizarre about using an AppleTV in that way though - it's designed for that purpose and it works great in that kind of situation.

The article questioned spending the money for an entire TV when you can buy a cable to connect to an existing TV for much less.

Re:A product is not a solution

[Em Adespoton]

I'm not sure what's so bizarre about using an AppleTV in that way though - it's designed for that purpose and it works great in that kind of situation.

The problem in this situation is usually that the AppleTV is on a different WiFi network than the iPads. Sometimes there's also ACL issues.

It sounds to me like IT didn't fully vet the conversion prior to dumping the new system on their users. Every user getting an iPad should have also got a bluetooth keyboard and a stylus at minimum; there should also be a few community PCs for teacher use to clean up/convert old documents. Finally, the USB Stick issue seems to again come back to IT: network infrastructure wasn't set up for easy transfer of files (USB sticks shouldn't be needed and are a security hazard anyway).

While a tablet doesn't completely replace a laptop in a school setting, it sounds to me like in this case the tablet never stood a chance, as its strengths were hobbled by IT (who likely weren't trained properly) from the get-go.

Re:A product is not a solution

[Anonymous Coward]

Uh. The Apple TV is not a TV.

It's a box that attaches to the TV allowing (among other things) the iPad to project it's video onto whatever TV you attach it to.
However, it does require a TV with an HDMI connection.

Re:A product is not a solution

[gnasher719]

The article questioned spending the money for an entire TV when you can buy a cable to connect to an existing TV for much less.

An AppleTV is not a TV. It is a device that connects to a TV and that allows you, among many other things, to either mirror whatever the iPad shows on the your TV (without any cables), or to use the TV as a second display for the iPad.

Re:A product is not a solution

[PeanutButterBreath]

The problem though, is that it sounds like they thought they could just dump the product on them and their problems would be solved.

I guess they though it would, you know, just work.

These people will have had deeply-ingrained workflows that frequently include all manner of hacks and workarounds that have glommed together over the years.

They were using well established word processing and presentation applications (Word and PowerPoint). More things that one might be forgiven for assuming would just work (at least, with minimal workflow upheaval).

Bottom line, Apple just didn't work in this case, period.

Re:A product is not a solution

[amicusNYCL]

My mistake for assuming that Apple TV was a TV.

Re:A product is not a solution

[amicusNYCL]

A $90 difference per classroom, and the cables aren't very easy to lose when they stay in the classroom. Regardless, that's why the article questioned why they would buy the Apple TV. I'm not trying to argue.

Re:A product is not a solution

[amicusNYCL]

Right, that's my mistake for assuming that the Apple TV was a TV. The Apple TV is neither an apple nor a TV, got it. Regardless, the article was questioning that decision presumably based on the $90 difference per classroom for a wireless box versus a cable.

Re:A product is not a solution

[exomondo]

Finally, the USB Stick issue seems to again come back to IT: network infrastructure wasn't set up for easy transfer of files

What do you mean?

Re:A product is not a solution

[Mabhatter]

To be fair, Apple needs to do a lot more work on the finer points of this stuff. They tout many new features on stage only good on the very latest products... AirPlay being one of those even Engadget editors got wrong the first time they reviewed it. I'd dred if they all got cheap ipad1 versions, that Apple dropped support for ridiculously quickly. Same with a mixed environment of Apple TV 2&3.

Apple TV would be awesome for the kiosk market. Put power over Ethernet, or sell a a cord with an extra tail, and it could be a "one stop" display, or even projector adapter (business presentation adapters have a special place in hell Apple could have killed) but wait, you can't actually play an Apple Keynote presentation, in a loop, on just an Apple TV? Really? That's the kind of thing teachers need to "just work" and even gadget blogs cant get a straight answer out of Apple on this stuff.

Re:A product is not a solution

[sgbett]

I am going to guess he means, all your work content should be saved on network shares (or even iCloud - but at the moment its lack of hierarchical arrangement is real pitfall).

That way you don't need USB sticks, which are losable, breakable, and usually not backed up anywhere.

Re:A product is not a solution

[Ash-Fox]

I can't even open up anything but the simplest of Word documents in open sourced alternatives, Google docs, etc.

Should have used Word.

It's Word that's the problem, here, not the iPad.

Word works fine here.

Re:A product is not a solution

[drinkypoo]

that's my mistake for assuming that the Apple TV was a TV. The Apple TV is neither an apple nor a TV

No, it's an Apple, and you can hack it to be a Mini instead of a STB. Or you can hack it and load XBMC on it, at which point it's your STB instead of Apple's, on loan. Or you can load Linux on it, and maybe Windows.

tablets in general were inappropriate

[v1]

A laptop (of any sort really) would have been a better choice, at least for the higher grades. I could see an ipad or other tablet being useful in K-2 for example, but beyond that where keyboarding, app flexibility, and document exchange become important, a tablet (any tablet) isn't the best tool for the job, unless you intend to have a very specific restricted usage, such as portable textbooks / reference.

Re:tablets in general were inappropriate

[xaxa]

My mum's a teacher in a British school (like the article). They've just this month opened a new building, with all-new classrooms and IT equipment. She says the best improvement over what they had before is new (Windows) laptops and correctly set up docking stations on the teacher's desk in every room -- connecting to the projector, a real keyboard/mouse, the interactive whiteboard, and the network, is done instantly. (Most classrooms have had an interactive whiteboard for years now, teachers love them. The main complaint seems to be the usual IT bureaucracy: tiny quota for email, laptop expected to be used while at home not working properly on the home network, etc.)

She teaches at a secondary school (age 11/12 to 15/16).

Android

[giveen1]

Should have gotten them Android tablets with keyboard docks.

There are too many other problems

[FrontDoors]

There are too many other problems in classrooms, I'am sure! There are many countries, which doesn't use Ipads. =)

Problem solved

[Dishwasha]

The problem is that the school forgot to get iPads with the MacBook wheel option.

Gimmick?

[acidradio]

I'm sure these iPads were touted as the "wave of the future" and that laptops were obsolete. Obsolete until you discover that the iPad is not a like-for-like replacement for said laptops! And in the process I'm sure some consultant handsomely profited on all of this. Like they said on The Simpsons, "Monorail! Monorail! Monorail!".

Can Work Needs Planning

[0101000001001010]

iPads in the classroom can be a great tool. But here's the thing. You have to plan for it before adoption.

Projection: AirPlay, HDMI, or VGA?
Documents: KeyNote, Quicktime, PDF; or maybe go to something less prepared and more on the fly. It can be neat to have a blackboard in your hand that projects on the screen.
Storage: Internal cloud, iBooks/iTunes for education where you can create your own courses with files, Moodle.

etc, etc. And only after you've worked these things out, you then beta-test by having a few tech savvy instructors run courses with them. Collect feedback. Discuss. Revise.

For the love of gods, don't just buy a bunch of hardware, hand it to people, and tell them to go educate. How's that supposed to work?

Re:Can Work Needs Planning

[Em Adespoton]

Especially because so much of the tablet infrastructure depends on a properly configured and administered supporting network. This type of conversion needs to be sold to and dogfooded (dogfed?) by IT in the school long before being rolled out to the teachers.

IT Illertate Staff?

[wiegeabo]

So...The staff, a bunch of teachers, are IT illiterate. And, instead of TEACHING them how to actually use a computer, the answer is...to buy them iPads to try and avoid the issue.

No teacher has a right to complain about students not wanting to learn if they're not willing to learn how to use the tools required by their job.

And when are school boards and parents going to learn that throwing fancy new tech at a problem doesn't fix the problem...or even the symptoms of the problem? Changing tech doesn't fix things. Changing PROCESSES fixes things.

Re:IT Illertate Staff?

[PeanutButterBreath]

So, should IT professionals be required to get teaching certifications? I mean, if we are demanding that people in one profession remain trained in a completely different field. . .

Have they invented an entire curriculum's worth of IT dependent school subjects? IIRC, it used to be possible to get an education with no computer in any classroom.

When are school boards and parents going to learn that education is not job training, and there is a point to going to school other than indoctrinating the next generation of cube drones and gadget consumers?

Re:IT Illertate Staff?

[Osgeld]

I dont buy the IT illiterate, its been a college requirement for at least 2 decades now, excel dont change THAT much (even with ribbon)

Re:IT Illertate Staff?

[Osgeld]

its 2012, if you can not operate a computer in even a basic form then you really have no business teaching the future

Re:IT Illertate Staff?

[Overzeetop]

Nice troll, there. IT staff rarely teach anything to anyone on a daily basis.

More like IT workers should be competent in operating a modern photocopier. Not repair it or set one up from scratch, but be able to make multiple copies, set the staple options, go between duplex and non-duplex, and change the scale of the output. They should even be able to clear a jam or replace a toner cartridge with instructions.

That's all we're asking the teachers to do - be able to operate the machinery which is necessary for your job on a daily basis.

Re:IT Illertate Staff?

[drinkypoo]

IT staff rarely teach anything to anyone on a daily basis.

At every institution at which I was part of an IT team, IT attempted to offer training to groups and individuals, and as a rule, the only people who would sign up were people who already had a basic grasp of whatever it was. The administration would always stop short of requiring everyone to attend (double-extra always in education) and therefore pretty much nobody showed up. When I was the only IT guy I didn't even bother based on these experiences, I had more important shit to do. Some users will read documentation so that's where I focused my efforts, intranet docs.

What's really pathetic is the amount of time you'll spend at a school helping instructors figure out what they did wrong with Office, when knowing how to use Office is part of basically everyone's job description, and the school has numerous classes on Office. It's a job requirement, it's a fucking school, put them in the class.

And the moral of this story:

[mblase]

Always test a deployment of new hardware within a single department, or smaller group, before implementing it throughout the building.

Re:And the moral of this story:

[PeanutButterBreath]

There was probably a lone gadget-junky on the staff who bought their own iPad and considered the hours of fiddling and significant workflow changes required to make it "just work" for their job to be a "fun" experience that everyone should embrace as a matter of course. So, after flashing around his or her toy and swearing up and down that making it "just work" was a snap, everyone else was on board.

Re:And the moral of this story:

[efitton]

If this had happened in the U.S. I could almost guarantee that it was either a grant or some corner case of how schools are funded and allowed to budget. My school doesn't have books (well some of them are 40 years old) but we have interactive white boards. We passed a bond measure for technology but books, teacher salaries, etc. in my state need to be paid out of the general fund which is always being slashed. So we end up buying tvs for the hallway that no one will watch because that purchase is allowed with bond money, while getting a new set of history books is beyond our reach. I'm guessing 99% of you have no idea the complexity of how funding works in most schools in the U.S.

The other option is a grant. Someone writes a long proposal and gets someone else to buy a bunch of iWhatevers. This is going to happen in one shot or not at all. You can't roll out a grant out over multiple years and decide halfway through that your idea was bad and you now want to spend the money a different way. It simply doesn't work that way. And many school systems might have 40 teachers, 2 principals, 3 or 4 secretaries, an athletic director and one IT person. You make it work as best you can. This often isn't a concerted plan because there isn't a group to do the plan and everyone is running around trying to accomplish about a dozen different things wearing a dozen different hats. The IT person is probably changing a bulb in a projector, running over to a different building because a student removed a component of a cdrom, ghosting a machine with a virus, installing software for a virtual class, and then trying to knock out a technology plan that needs to be submitted to the state for a rubber stamp that no one will look at anyhow. This isn't GE folks. On the other hand, this is all one off activities. The actual goal is to help students learn material, help them become good citizens, and about five hundred different tasks. And don't forget to call a few parents this week and make it to a football game.

Restricted FileSystem and No Fine Movement Input

[ad454]

My biggest gripes with my iPad3 as a work device are:

One's fingers does not provide fine movement input like a mouse, touchpad, or fine tip pen/stylus (like the Samsung Note/Note2), which is needed for creating decent graphical design work. (It is far easier to move a mouse, touchpad, or pen/stylus by a single pixel, then my finger.)

Proper unrestricted filesystem that lets you locally share documents easily and securely locally across different applications, without handing over your unencrypted work to untrustworthy 3rd party cloud services. Why could I upload my personal document to Apple's iCloud and download it again, just to open it up in a different app?

And proper cut-and-paste of graphical (non-text) objects between applications. Why can't I click on an image, powerpoint/keynote diagram, etc, and copies these into the clipboard, and then paste into a word/pages document or e-mail message?

Re:Sounds like a training issue..

[graphius]

No, I would say it is a "not looking at the tool in question" issue. Ipads are not a replacement for laptops, especially for the uses the school seems to want.
This seems like jumping on a bandwagon before really thinking about what the new gadgets will be used for.

I would blame the IT department (without reading TFA) who did not explain the limitations of the ipads...

Yeah, I know, so much for my karma....

Tools for different purposes

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know why people are always comparing the two. Tablets are primarily a content consumption device (unless maybe you tack on an external keyboard, and then you're basically back to having a laptop again.) The headlines ever since the iPad first came out was "PC's are out, tablets are the future!" or "Death of the PC Age". If you're doing a lot of typing, a tablet is less than ideal.

Re:Android

[geekd]

You can edit old Word docs & Powerpoint presentations on an Android tablet?

Re:Android

[giveen1]

Office Suite Pro https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.mobisystems.editor.office_registered&feature=search_result#?t=W251bGwsMSwxLDEsImNvbS5tb2Jpc3lzdGVtcy5lZGl0b3Iub2ZmaWNlX3JlZ2lzdGVyZWQiXQ..

It's a status symbol.

[khasim]

The iPad is GREAT for CONSUMING content.

It suck for GENERATING content.

So anyone with an iPad has more status than anyone who does their work on a laptop (which has more status than someone with a desktop).

And they get to watch movies and stuff on it at home.

Re:It's a status symbol.

[Goose In Orbit]

Cellphones, yes...

I'll wager that pretty much all of it is recorded - and then the owner presses "share" and it's uploaded to wherever... there's no real creation going on

Re:It's a status symbol.

[tlhIngan]

Cellphones, yes...

I'll wager that pretty much all of it is recorded - and then the owner presses "share" and it's uploaded to wherever... there's no real creation going on

A lot of directors are using iPads these days - perhaps not in the actual recording of movies and film, but definitely in the content creation process. They seem to have figured out that being mobile is far more useful during a shoot, and load the dailies and previs work on their iPads as well as scripts and shooting notes, so they can run around directing the scene and not schlepping a laptop (which would save them the "sync" stage).

I'd argue that's content creation, at least in the assistance of. It's more important to be a tablet form factor than the obvious utility of a laptop which they would otherwise keep at the table and have to walk back and forth to reference.

Of course, for these people, you'd think they'd be the first to use tablet PCs rather than tablets.

Re:It's a status symbol.

[exomondo]

Phones yes, tablets not so much. I had an iPhone, iPad and Macbook Air and i found the iPad just got very rare use because it was easier or more efficient to do the tasks on the phone or laptop, the only thing i ever really used the iPad for was web browsing, there was just no situation (naturally YMMV) where the iPad was the best tool for the job.

Re:It's a status symbol.

[dave562]

Last I checked dailies ran into the hundreds of gigabytes. Of course, maybe we are talking about different kinds of dailies. My only experience has been with the Editors Guild and Avid systems.

Maybe the technology has changed in the last five years and dailies now fit on a 64GB iPad?

Re:It's a status symbol.

[Capt.DrumkenBum]

It suck for GENERATING content.

You wrote this post on an iPad, didn't you?

Re:It's a status symbol.

[martinX]

They may be using an iPad as part of the 'content creation process', but loading dailies and previsualisations, scripts and shooting notes are all "content consumption", not actual creation.

I make videos for a living and I'd love more iPad action, but it just doesn't fit that well. Even scripts are better on paper. At least you can scribble on them.

In my institution, there is a projects to roll out iPads to certain personnel. Most of the tasks performed will be record retrieval, but some will be data entry. That may be considered 'content creation', but it's no more advanced than an electronic form with all the heavy lifting happening on servers.

Re:It's a status symbol.

[jockm]

Well it isn't uncommon to have proxy dailies that are much smaller for that reason. But there are also software to view the originals without storing them on the ipad directly

Re:It's a status symbol.

[lightknight]

Why yes, and there is a lot of content creation going on in the quiet room with the white porcelain throne, but you don't hear anyone else talking about it.

The quality of the content matters, I am not just talking about getting enough fiber here. Writers, programmers, all types which spend the majority of their time hitting keys on the keyboard? They want a keyboard, with mechanical keys or membrane keys, something that doesn't give them RSI or carpal tunnel after writing half a novel / program. A tablet's screen is very unforgiving on the fingers, which is why I laughed at the idea of someone trying to create a large work on them. The money you earn off that work will go to pay your medical bills for the damage you inflicted on yourself.

 

Re:It's a status symbol.

[Zaelath]

[citation required]

A lot of bullshit is made up these days.

Re:It's a status symbol.

[aaarrrgggh]

For me, my iPad keeps me from needing to bring a laptop to places it doesn't belong, and let's me use my BigHonkinDesktop for real work and a tablet in meetings to read supporting content. It ismfar from a perfect situation, and I need to bring the laptop in from home when I am doing a "war room" session.

It is great to be able to carry 500 pages of contract/design documents around on a construction job site. If I had the apps to properly tag a series of photos with comments and publish on letterhead, I would be golden.

"Eat my shorts!"

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

> and problems with projecting the iPad's display
> to the classroom — bizarrely, using an Apple TV

HA HA! /Nelson

Re:Android

[DickBreath]

While I am an Android fan, and am aware of a really good tablet with keyboard doc, the problem remains: the software. (Or as they say the "Apps")

What is needed is a full office suite. Compatibility with Microsoft Office, like it or not (and I don't) is a must.

I expect we will see LibreOffice on Android. But then Apple will come out with an iPod with keyboard doc, that is patented.

Pages and Keynote

[cowtamer]

While I agree that tablets are currently consumption devices, the Pages (MS Word Equivalent) and Keynote (PPT Editor) are actually quite mature and tailored for the tablet. Add GoodReader to that (PDF editor/annotator) and you can do a LOT of day to day viewing and minor editing.

That being said, I'm typing this on my Windows laptop :)

This is why you run pilot programs.

[Dzimas]

Honestly, this is an administration issue. Instead of cutting the entire school over to iPads in the classroom, they should simply have selected a couple of classrooms to try using them for a year. If the issues that crop up are insurmountable, the technology can be abandoned without significant disruption, cost and time wasted. This is the way we usually do things in business, after all.

Re:This is why you run pilot programs.

[cusco]

That's the way things are normally done in government as well, unless you have idiots in administration. If that's the case your organization, public or private, is screwed anyway.

Duh!

[onyxruby]

Ipad's are for /consuming/ content, not making content. It's the one brilliant thing Microsoft got dead on right with the Surface tablet that is coming out.

The ipad is ultimately a toy, I work at a place that a /very/ large quantity of the things. I can assure you that they only productive thing they ever do is take notes during meetings.

I'll be curious to see if this carries over for the Surface when it comes out with it's native keyboard and USB support.

Re:Duh!

[onyxruby]

I have a droid tablet, a Nexus 7. I love the thing and use it constantly. However I don't produce much content on it. The transformer from Asus could well be the exception as it has a keyboard available. Same basic problem with the droid.

Re:USB sticks?

[DickBreath]

Interfacing with USB sticks would be a step toward compatibility with ubiquitous standards. Don't expect that from Apple.

I can bluetooth transfer a file to any phone made ten years ago, or to any modern phone or computer. But not to an iPhone -- because that would again, require compatibility with common standards. My friend (an Apple fanboy) says, but there is the neato file transfer app for the iPhone . . . ., and I say, but you miss my point.

Not computers needed

[slapout]

Just teach the kids reading, writing and arithmetic. You don't need laptops for iPads for that. Use a good ole chalkboard. Then, once the children have mastered these basics, you can move them to computers.

Re:Not computers needed

[efitton]

You can pry my interactive whiteboard out of my cold, dead hands. Dynamic Geometry software is a godsend. GeoGebra helps my students actually make sense of things like Geometric Constructions, Geometry Theorems and Logarithms. So until you have actually taught for a week with at least two different methods I'll be ignoring all of your advice for teachers.

Re:Not computers needed

[efitton]

We have fancy technology and we are broke. Why? Because we can pay for fancy technology, sports facilities and classroom facilities with property taxes. We can only pay for teachers, books, etc. out of the general fund supplied by the state which has been slashed repeatedly the last few years. You have no idea the complexity of the laws when you have local, state and federal funding and they all slightly overlap. And yes, you get a different set of red tape in every state. So thank you for being judgmental but it isn't because we are pissing money away. We have money to use for some budget items and then trying to teach classes of 30+ kids with 40 year old history books because with that fund, we are flat broke.

Re:Not computers needed

[tibit]

It's perhaps time to change those funding rules. IMHO school districts should choose their own way and stop being slaves over money. Fuck federal and state money, that's only there so that the state or the fed can lead you around with a carrot stick (you stick to their rules, they pay, you don't, you don't get paid). A typical school district should be only running off the local property taxes. That would simplify the finances a whole lot, even if it's less money to begin with. It's fix this general-vs-other-fund problem. Even then, having split funds isn't all that great. The principal and the district should be able to allocate money as they see fit in the circumstances. If one year they've got a building to fix they should be able to trade off, say, an art teacher for a year.

Re:Not computers needed

[efitton]

Yes, lets get rid of 80% of our funding. We'll be so much better off. Class sizes of 60 but we won't have a tv in the hallway and we still won't have new books.

Seriously, do 3 seconds of research before commenting.

Re:Not computers needed

[tibit]

80%?! That must be some poor school district you're talking about. A nearby school district gets 90% of money from income tax and state tax reimbursement (that's not money tied to particular performance). They get remaining 10% from federal and state foundation money. Only those 10% is money tied to performance or otherwise with carrot and stick ties.

Re:Not computers needed

[efitton]

What State?! I told you the funding varies greatly State by State. As do laws. In Michigan property taxes can only be used for capital improvements, buildings, computer hardware (not software), etc. And these are subject to legal requirements, it isn't cart blanch then. To be more equitable from rich districts and poor districts all general funds are provided by the state at approximate $7000 per student per year. That way Okemos and Detroit are on more equal funding footing. Federal money tends to be used for special education, title 1 and title 2, each of which have their own requirements. And you do not want to be paying for a full time teacher for one student out of your general fund depending on the needs of your students (this will occasionally happen with severe medical problems). So no, in Michigan it is much more than 10%; however, I would guess that your local district does not have the ability to throw away 10% of their funding even if they have to jump through some hoops. Pragmatism matters.

Re:Not computers needed

[tibit]

They have state laws about what property taxes can be used for? Wow, I didn't think idiocy went that far. I stand corrected, then. Ohio, BTW.

Re:Not computers needed

[efitton]

Well I agree that the funding laws lead to some choices that are simply ridiculous, as someone who has taught primarily in high need districts (97% free school lunch and 60+ free school lunch) having some equity in funding is important. The divide between the haves and have nots is appreciable in Michigan but it was much worse before prop A (the law that changed school funding in Michigan). And it sometimes amazes me how much larger the divide between schools in poor neighborhoods and rich neighborhoods are in some other states. Obviously there are many possibly solutions and we probably have 52 attempts at funding once you include DC, military bases and Porto Rico.

Re:Sounds like a training issue..

[Spad]

Having been in this situation twice in the last couple of years, I would bet the IT department did explain the limitations of the iPads and were overruled by the teachers who wanted shiny toys they could show off to their friends.

Re:Idiots

[Eponymous Hero]

exactly. people with this stupid iWant mentality have no business "teaching" kids anything.

Re:USB sticks?

[vlm]

What secret iPad models are they using that interface with USB sticks?

They probably mean the existing workflow "demands" USB sticks because last time the curriculum was reviewed, 10 years ago, they were all the rage. And there's no really good way to use a flash stick with a gen 1 ipad like mine. Dropbox works great, however.

I use dropbox and google drive and haven't used a USB other than as a bootable device in ... donno how many years, maybe 5 to 10 now, but my kids elementary school shopping list for 4th grade and up demands they buy "flash stick, 1 GB" which probably was pretty ambitious/expensive 10 years ago but I don't think you can buy ones that small anymore.

I would imagine once cloud storage is obsolete, the school will hire a very high priced consultant who happens to be related to a school board member and they'll review the curriculum and demand the kids use cloud storage for the next ten years.

Why did you tell me that?

[jockm]

Because for about a year now I haven't taken my laptop out of the house, and mostly using it for programming, and photo editing. I have spent all this time writing fiction, poetry, outlines, technical documentation, etc; built websites, created diagrams (I prefer using OmniGraffle on the iPad to the desktop version); doing some light experimenting in Lua; making graphics and other things... all because no one told me it sucked at creating content.

But now that you told me, it is all ruined. I will have to lug around the laptop, aggravate the bone spurs in my neck and shoulders, have to put up with shorter battery life, and all that.

Gee thanks

Re:Why did you tell me that?

[93 Escort Wagon]

And this surprises you? You're new on Slashdot, I take it...

Re:Why did you tell me that?

[AK Marc]

He got modded down because he whipped out an e-peen to brag about, and didn't sound believable. I don't create content outside my house. Most here probably don't either. So to indicate that because the iPad goes with him, it gets the content created seems strange. Fabricated, even. I create content on one of two laptops. A personal one and an work one. Depending on where I am and where I plan on going, I usually have one or the other (or both) on me. A tablet wouldn't help at all because I don't create on the bus or at the park. I create at my desk at work or my desk at home (or the couch or elsewhere around the house). The tablet gets use for when I'm around the house mainly. It's easier to pack around, but I don't because there's nothing to do with it. I don't stop on random benches with the wish to create for 20 minutes, so it'd stay in my bag all the time anyway.

From the discussions I've seen, that's more in line with the actual use of the devices. They are handy if you go to lots of meetings and wish you had a laptop with you, but don't because the laptop is too unwieldy. But that's not what he was talking about. He was talking about his preference on creating contend on a tablet, rather than laptop. That's not what most people do, so itwill get dismissed as unusual.

Re:Why did you tell me that?

[jockm]

Did I say that I forced myself? No. Are something a little harder on the iPad? Yes. Are other things easier and more efficient? Yes.

It isn't some net loss that people then grudgingly accept. For some people, like myself, using a tablet instead of a laptop/desktop is a real benefit. It might not the case for you, but please don't paint everyone with the same brush.

For me it is like when I moved to a thinkpad with a trackpoint. I couldn't use it in the same way as I used a mouse or a touchpad. It was frustrating and hard to use. Then I realized I could make a curving motion and get to the point I wanted. Once I did that I was about as efficient with the trackpoint.

When I am writing on the iPad I just tap close to where I want to be, and I don't obsess about accuracy. Why? Because my hands move back to the keyboard and I quickly move to the right place. I am rarely more than a couple of characters off. I tend to select text with the keyboard more often as well.

The Lua IDE Codea has a kind of touch mouse feature on their virtual keyboard that is a joy to use and I hope apple adopts in some way. Most of my graphics apps have some kind of alignment or gravity feature so I don't have to worry that using my finger might be less efficient.

I use each UI in the best way I can, but I am not making some kind of sacrifice to use the iPad.

Re:Why did you tell me that?

[jockm]

OOO look I am -1 flamebait now. I think that is the first time that has happened to me. I shall treasure it like the day I got perfect karma. :)

No the moderation to my post doesn't bother me. Franky I think there are too many moderation types. I think there should be only two: this adds to the conversation/this detracts from the conversation. After that there should be some tags you can apply: troll, funny, rathole, ontopic, etc.

Then I could could ask to see all ontopic, not funny (because they never are actually funny), posts rated 3 or above. /. would seem like a much more interesting place that way.

That being said, I probably still would have been downvoted, because /.'ers are still /.'ers :D

Re:Why did you tell me that?

[sd4f]

I think it's because the crowd here tend to use their computers in ways that apple gear tends to not be interested in. For a lot of things I do, a desktop is still my main preference, stuff like solidworks runs on laptops fine, but you want big screens, and when doing FEA simulations, that can take a long time to crunch the numbers, and even content creation, like using DAW's, can't see how an ipad is going to be any good when latancies are not that brilliant with a desktop computer.

I wouldn't say it's groupthink, it's just that people here have generally different uses for their computers, and each iteration of computing that concentrates more and more on the mass market, is less and less appropriate for the specialists. When i read a lot of arguments for ipads in the classroom (sorry for going back on topic) they're generic arguments that really apply to bringing computers into the classroom, can't see anything particularly special about the ipad in any of the arguments, but even then, as an engineer, laptops and tablets are only used by people who attend class but aren't paying attention, i still think it's overhyped a lot of the time.

Walking through the campus (i'm still a student, but in mechanical and mechatronic engineering), particularly the industrial design section, just about everyone has some gizmo, and it's apple, engineering, most people have a pen and paper, ironic that the people equipped with the knowledge to actually make the device, don't even use it to gain the knowledge.

Re:Why did you tell me that?

[jockm]

90% of the novel I wrote was on the bus and train coming to and coming back from work. I have a lovely park half a block down my street, and a number of coffeeshops within three hours of my house. I have a form of early onset arthritis which means I have to see the doctor regularly, and get a 3 hour IV every 6 weeks. My hospital and Dr's offices all have free wifi.

Every single thing I said in my original post is 100% true. I am sorry you think I was lying, but I can't help that.

I am also not saying I am typical, but I am not the only I know like this. My wife's best friend only takes her iPad with her on business trips (about 100 days out of the year) and uses it far more than I do. I know a few other people who are using the iPad the same way I am. We may be a minority, but we are real.

Re:Why did you tell me that?

[jockm]

I frankly don't think there is that much diversity on /. We are mostly technical, more male than female, mostly middle class, most of us went to college, etc. I am not as sure about race, but I would not be shocked to find out it was mostly white.

Then factor in that only a small subset of users ever post at all (don't remember the percentage, but it was mentioned once and it was tiny).

So the people are post end up becoming a self selected group from a self selected group. It isn't shocking that most of them think along similar lines.

Re:Why did you tell me that?

[Wild_dog!]

I know of lots of people who leave their laptops at home on business trips.
In fact I know businesses which have switched to iPads for their mobile devices and it hasn't seemed to hurt them at all.
Everyone has to decide for themselves. Usually, there needs to be a some sort of shift in how things are done, but this doesn't necessarily mean a sacrifice. It has more to do with learning a different way of accomplishing ones goals. Key being.... you can do it with an iPad if it works better for you and your business.

Re:Why did you tell me that?

[jockm]

I did in my original post, but just to make it more clear: battery life, lightness, portability, all things that aid me with my increasing disability

Re:Why did you tell me that?

[jockm]

I have bone spurs in my neck, shoulders, and spine. Oh and in one of my hips as well. Every gram counts. I carry a small folding bluetooth keyboard with full sized keys. It has a little snap off stand that I use to prop up the ipad.

Re:Why did you tell me that?

[Lemmy Caution]

Are you asking yes and no questions? Yes. As I way to concede without conceding? Yes. Is it effective? No. Is it overdone? Yes. Are there better ways to write? Definitely, yes.

Re:Why did you tell me that?

[jockm]

There is a difference between better for you, and better for everyone.

If you want to say there is one definitive better way to write for everyone, you are going to have to back that up with real data. My point it is subjective. People like me may be the minority, but we are real and out there. Please don't assume we are somehow deluding ourselves.

Re:Why did you tell me that?

[jockm]

There is one other thing you should realize about /. moderation. It is a lot like wikipedia. While an article is active some posts can be quite volatile. As I write this my original post is back up to a 2. So no harm actually done. It may go up to a three, it probably won't. I frankly think it was about a 2-3 post (hey they all can't be winners).

In wikipedia you see lots of flaws and inaccuracies, but eventually things get better, mostly, for most of it. Tomorrow this whole thing will be forgotten by most people. In a week it will be irrelevant.

This is /. for good and ill

Re:Why did you tell me that?

[jockm]

You still make it sound like I am making a sacrifice, and what I am saying is that I am not. It is a different form of UX, but it isn't a lesser one.

Even before my disability I didn't like to carry big heavy bags with me, or full laptops. I did, I just didn't like. I am as sure as I can be that I would have gravitated to the iPad anyway. It is, for me, a better way to work. Just accept that.

Re:Why did you tell me that?

[jockm]

Sorry I didn't mean "three hours" I meant "three miles". Being in Portland, OR I have a metric ton of coffee places within three hours of my house...

Re:Why did you tell me that?

[LordLucless]

Every single thing I said in my original post is 100% true. I am sorry you think I was lying, but I can't help that.

You weren't lying, you were just excluding an additional fact (that you mentioned later in one of your replies). You use an aftermarket keyboard and dock to essentially turn your tablet form-factor device into a small laptop form-factor device.

It's like saying that a phone is perfectly adequate development device, after I plug it into a dock and attach my massive LCD screens, and USB mouse and keyboard. At that stage, what device is processing the input for all those devices is irrelevant.

Nobody's claiming that these devices don't have the capacity, or the speed, or whatever, to perform productive tasks. They're saying that the form factor is not conducive to it. Plugging the processing unit into another device with an appropriate form factor for content creation doesn't defeat their point - it only goes to demonstrate it.

Re:Why did you tell me that?

[Nixoloco]

Sorry I didn't mean "three hours" I meant "three miles". Being in Portland, OR I have a metric ton of coffee places within three hours of my house...

That's what you get for typing your post from your iPad ;)

Re:Why did you tell me that?

[blind biker]

Writing technical documentation with an iPad? The stench of BS is getting strong.

Only rabid Apple fanbois could have modded this post up. Or people who never used an iPad for editing a single sentence.

Re:Why did you tell me that?

[jockm]

I am sorry I didn't realize I had to mention that. It is an option available to all users of the iPad, including the one who said it sucked at content creation. Indeed may of the people replying to me assumed I was using an external keyboard. You will also notice that a number of my use cases I mention don't use the keyboard at all.

But some clarifications. I don't carry a dock, I carry a small plastic stand (which is a part of the keyboard). But the exact same effect can be had by placing a pen on the table and laying the iPad on that.

It's like saying that a phone is perfectly adequate development device, after I plug it into a dock and attach my massive LCD screens, and USB mouse and keyboard. At that stage, what device is processing the input for all those devices is irrelevant.

No it isn't. It isn't something unusual. It isn't a hack. It is a standard option for the iPad and has been for a very long time.

Nobody's claiming that these devices don't have the capacity, or the speed, or whatever, to perform productive tasks.

Yes they are. Go back and look at the posts in this thread. Again many of them are assuming I am using an external keyboard, and still say the iPad sucks at content creation.

Re:Why did you tell me that?

[jockm]

Sorry all true. Please consult the post where I assert what I am saying is true. Also why are technical docs the thing that cause your incredulity?

Re:Why did you tell me that?

[jockm]

No that was the massive amount of morphine I have to take every day.

Re:Why did you tell me that?

[LordLucless]

No it isn't. It isn't something unusual. It isn't a hack. It is a standard option for the iPad and has been for a very long time.

Why would doing what I described be a hack? People have doing it with laptops for years. If processor speed and capacity reaches a critical threshold, I wouldn't be surprised to see people doing it with phones in the near future.

Yes they are. Go back and look at the posts in this thread. Again many of them are assuming I am using an external keyboard, and still say the iPad sucks at content creation.

Which posts? I can't see any that mention you to be using an external keyboard. The only one I can see which gives any specifics at all is assuming the opposite:

Simple things like placing the caret, selecting text, precision locating, formatting, it's all far less efficient on a touchscreen

People complain about tablets for data entry because touchscreens suck for it. They obscure half the screeen. The haptic feedback is nowhere near the quality of even a cheap keyboard. It's harder to touch type, as virtual keys don't have tangible boundaries. Auto-correct can screw up what you're typing. Add an external keyboard to that, however, and those problems go away.

But the only real difference between a tablet with an external keyboard and a laptop, is the physical size and weight, and the OS. Everyone's talking about tablets as if they're a massive paradigm shift in the way we use computers. But when you find out how people who use them regularly actually use them, it turns out they're using them as miniature laptops. That's fine, there's nothing wrong with that, but it just goes to show that the tablet form factor isn't some quantum leap forward for general computing UI the way it's often hyped - it's a niche device.

Re:Why did you tell me that?

[jockm]

If size, weight, battery life, OS, adaptability (IE using a keyboard or not) aren't a paradigm shift I don't know what is. The only difference between a mainframe and a laptop is size, weight, portability, and the OS.

I give you the right to the last word...

Re:Why did you tell me that?

[LordLucless]

If size, weight, battery life, OS, adaptability (IE using a keyboard or not) aren't a paradigm shift I don't know what is

Those (with the possibly exception of adaptability) are almost the very definition of iterative improvements. Computers are always getting smaller and lighter; batteries are likewise getting smaller, lighter and more capacitive. A paradigm shift involves a change, not the ongoing process of improvement that we see all the time.

The only difference between a mainframe and a laptop is size, weight, portability, and the OS.

Right, and we didn't jump from mainframes to PCs. Mainframes were getting smaller and lighter all the time; thus came the mini computer. Mini computers likewise got smaller and lighter (and cheaper; don't forget this one) and thus came the personal computer. Personal computers got cheaper and more user friendly and, at some point, hit the sweet spot of price, size and accessibility that allowed it to go mainstream.

Re:Why did you tell me that?

[wvmarle]

I also know quite some people who do everything with their iPads. I just can't imagine it to work better than a sturdy netbook.

Re:Why did you tell me that?

[exomondo]

If size, weight, battery life, OS, adaptability (IE using a keyboard or not) aren't a paradigm shift I don't know what is.

I'm not sure you know what a 'paradigm shift' is, those things aren't a paradigm shift, they are all things that have been iteratively changed over time for decades.

Re:Why did you tell me that?

[bemymonkey]

Could you post an example of the outlines, technical documentations, websites and diagrams? Which apps are you using for this? Are you creating and editing these exclusively on the iPad? Or are you syncing and editing on a desktop/laptop as well?

I'd be genuinely intererested in seeing some real world examples, because having a single tablet that can do everything has been a dream of mine since I was a little kid... :)

Re:Why did you tell me that?

[bemymonkey]

So you do use a (physical) keyboard though, right?

As for your comments on the trackpoint: Anything but praise for the almighty pointing stick borders on blasphemy! :D

Re:Why did you tell me that?

[minus9]

"Because for about a year now I haven't taken my laptop out of the house, and mostly using it for programming, and photo editing. I have spent all this time writing fiction, poetry, outlines, technical documentation, etc;"

Maybe if you had used a laptop it wouldn't have taken you all year. ;-)

Re:Why did you tell me that?

[jockm]

Most — between 70 and 80% of the time if I had to hazard a guess — of the time when doing text based things, there are number of things on my list that don't require a keyboard at all. Mindmapping is so direct and fluid on the iPad that simply can't use my laptop to do it at all; and I don't use an external keyboard when doing that.

I don't view this as cheating, or a failure of the iPad. I see it as a strength, the fact that it can (near seamlessly) adapt to the best way to work at a given moment. And if we are talking blasphemy: I am very intrigued by the MS Surface's keyboard cover, and the fact that it can act like a pointing device.

Live by the pointing stick, die by the pointing stick

Re:Why did you tell me that?

[jockm]

Did I say it was anything other than an anecdote? Someone said (without data themselves) that the iPad sucked at content creation. I just offered an example. I have never claimed my experience was typical, simply that his wasn't universal.

Re:Why did you tell me that?

[jockm]

This isn't a cop out, but you have to understand that my clients wouldn't be happy if I released their internal docs and such to the world :)

However I can point to this site for my own company. Roughly 60% (maybe a bit more) of that was written on the iPad. I used the app Koder to do the work, because it has Dropbox support. I created the project in IntelliJ IDEA, and then whenever I wanted to go outside the house to work, I would grab the iPad. Then I would come home and work on my laptop.

It was also a chance to test out Koder, which was fine. I mostly use Gusto, but it lacks Dropbox support, alas.

When I write documents, I either use Elements and write in markdown for things that don't require a lot of formatting. I personally think markdown is unwieldy beyond basic formatting, but that is just me. When I need to do more complex formatting I will use QuickOffice, Pages, or when document fidelity is primary I remote desktop into a VM I have running at home (but that isn't very often).

Mindmapping is an amazing experience on the iPad using iThoughtsHD (and don't use a keyboard), I used to find it annoying on a desktop os. On the tablet you have a direct connection to your concepts, I find I am more free and playful with moving and rearranging ideas and concepts. Again I wish I could show you some but their either whole deeply personal information, or my clients information. They also just look like mindmaps ;)

For diagramming I use OmniGraffle. While more limited than its desktop version, I find it to be easier and more fluid to create the diagrams I create.

When I just want to play with algorithms or sketch in code, I will use iLuaBox Pro. Lua isn't my favorite language but it is very good for working out ideas.

For spreadsheets I use Numbers or QuickOffice. Keynote is the only thing I use for presentations.

For quick photo editing I use Naked Touch. For vector images I use TouchDraw. I also use Photoshop Touch, but not as much as I thought I would. I use iSSH for SSH, VNC, and remote Desktop. I don't have cause to do remote X Windows, but it can do that too.

And when I am back home I use AirDisplay to turn the iPad into a second monitor.

Again it might not be the right answer for most people, but it is for me.

Re:Why did you tell me that?

[jockm]

Or it would have taken two...

Re:Why did you tell me that?

[Wovel]

You just don't know what your talking about. It is always fun to watch someone tell someone they can't possibly do what they are doing.

Re:Why did you tell me that?

[Wovel]

The people who say you cannot create on the iPad are generally not very creative people. They actually can't imagine creating anything anywhere.

Re:Why did you tell me that?

[Wovel]

I agree. The difference is, I can sit in the cab and type on the screen. When I get to a table I can pull out the keyboard. Good stuff.

Re:Why did you tell me that?

[Wovel]

Thats true. Block diagrams are much easier on the iPad. Maybe I should Omnigraffe on the desktop again, but compared to visio the iPad is a joy. Still hard to get all the stencils you need for some things, but that is just a matter of time.

Re:Why did you tell me that?

[jockm]

...for a piddly 400g of added weight...

Piddly? That is most of a pound right there. We aren't talking some trivial difference

Re:Sounds like a training issue..

[jedidiah]

But they are Apple products. They are not supposed to be a "training issue".

Re:Android

[idontgno]

Technically, this already exists. iPad apparently supports Bluetooth keyboards, so you'll find many iPad cases with an integrated BT keyboard.

Here's an example at ThinkGeek.

This is one place where Apple's iron-fisted dominance of design comes in handy. The iPad is a nice consistent formfactor (only a couple of sizes to consider), so it's easy for a brisk aftermarket of compatible accessories, as long as those accessories can either license necessary compatibility technology (charge/audio/data port) or the compatibility is itself fairly open (Bluetooth); I haven't seen a one-size-fits-all equivalent for Android tablets simply because there's so much variability in size and shape.

I disagree

[tlambert]

Add a keyboard and a copy of Pages and Keynote and they probably would have been fine with their antique document formats and typing.

Worst case, if their stuff isn't larger than 100MB, they could just use the free version of Zamzar to convert all their documents: http://www.zamzar.com/conversionTypes.php

Hopefully they've put all their lesson plans and course materials online, if only on a school/district internal web server, but of course that would risk someone else being able to take the information and teach from it, so maybe they'd want it locked down for job security reasons, as opposed to, you know, educating the kids. Or God forbid, the kids accessing the information and learning at their own pace, reading ahead, and all sorts of other nasty things that would mean the teachers would have to concentrate on helping the kids having problems learning because they come from the shallow end of the gene pool.

Re:I disagree

[efitton]

You want me to type a test about logarithms with keynote? What am I suppose to create my teaching applets with?

You have no idea what teachers actually do. I need to stop coming to Slashdot. They keep throwing up poor education articles and having the masses tell us what is wrong with no experience. Remember what it is like when someone without training or education tells you incorrect information about programming patterns? Occasionally it would be a good idea to listen to computer experts talk about computers, climate scientist talk about climate change and a teacher or two talk about education.

In the meantime I need to brush up on LaTeX and install LyX again but most worksheets, tests, investigative tasks, etc. are all typed with a version of Word and Microsoft's Formula Editor. Not having a compatible formula editor is a nonstarter.

Re:I disagree

[tibit]

It'd be probably doable to hire someone to port LyX to iPad. LaTeX could be running as a web service on school's servers.

Re:I disagree

[Ash-Fox]

Remember what it is like when someone without training or education tells you incorrect information about programming patterns?

First time I've even heard of "programming patterns" actually. So, basing it off this experience, it feels like I'm learning something new.

Re:I disagree

[efitton]

Facepalm. Yes, we have that kind of money (I can't even type that with a straight face). Or I can use any real computer in the world.

Re:I disagree

[tibit]

I'm not saying you should pay it ;)

Hate to say we told them so...

[gman003]

but we told them so. WE TOLD THEM. They did not listen. And now? Vindication.

Re:Hate to say we told them so...

[gnasher719]

but we told them so. WE TOLD THEM. They did not listen. And now? Vindication.

If you read the article, this sounds very much like a Windows-only IT man, who claims without proof that the decision to buy iPads was made by a "fashion-conscious headmaster", and who is either too stupid or not willing to fix problems that turn up.

Input bandwidth

[Ziggitz]

Touchscreens offer a smaller form factor at the cost of precision and input complexity. It essentially is for a device with very low input bandwidth which is why tablets are excellent for consumption of media, something that requires little input to navigate and then the majority of the activity is absorbing information. This is the same trade off you make with your phone but to a lesser extent. This is why the desktop computer is not going to go away anytime soon. The input method and display for a computer dictates it's form factor, a lot of netbook manufacturers even scaled up their models after realizing that going below a certain size harmed the display and input method too much. Until we make some huge breakthroughs in input methods the form factor of an ideal keyboard and mouse layout is going to be larger than we'd like to consider portable and thus there is no reason to not have a powerful non portable computing device that can be made at lower cost as a primary work tool if your job does not require you to be mobile.

Re:Feels like Im repeating myself...

[Eponymous Hero]

nothing in TFA about these ipads being used to write code. the idea here behind the ipads was definitely laptop replacement, so yes, the ipad should be dismissed on those merits. since you can't be bothered:

The school, somewhat bizarrely, also supplied teachers with Apple TVs to allow them to project their iPad display in the classroom, which seems more than a little extravagant. A simple £25 Apple VGA connector would surely have been a far cheaper and more efficient means of achieving that goal. Especially as the staff are struggling to get the Apple TV to output a full-size image.

“I tried to use mine for assembly on Friday, but the picture on the Apple TV is smaller than it should be,” our teacher claims. “To add insult to injury, it didn’t recognise my ‘non-standard’ font and so I ended up borrowing an old laptop to deliver the assembly.”

say it ain't so, ghost-of-steve-jobs! poor wankers, how's the kool-aid taste now?

They didn't swap back for a Mac?? Jeez

[Xenious]

Actually and iPad is great for digital textbooks and content consuming. That's what they should use it for.

Did some PHB sign off on this with out testing??

[Joe_Dragon]

Did some PHB sign off on this with out testing??

The struggling to get the Apple TV to output a full-size image.

makes it seem like there was no testing and then they had to deal with if and maybe find some old pc's to do some of the work that the new system can't not due.

also about the USB key's maybe the student / staff email size and / or server space was real small and usb keys worked better and are easier to use.

Think about whats the best way to move school work from home to school??? Email maybe but some school email systems are real locked down and or maybe they don't have some kind of FTP system.

USB keys work good and is harder for a student to say the school email / file system lost there work.

Re:Sounds like a training issue..

[graphius]

Yes, I will go with that....

In other news....

[mpfife]

A hammer still works better than the most elegantly crafted screwdriver in the world when it comes to putting in nails. Film at 11!

Steve Jobs Said It

[rabtech]

Steve Jobs, when introducing the iPad, said it was a device inbetween a phone and a PC.

Granted - some people are able to get by with just a tablet and it works well for them. And there are certainly some types of content-creation that work really well on tablets. But in general the tablet is an addition to your workflow, not a replacement for it.

Personally I find my iPad great for audio measurement using a dock-connector reference mic, taking notes, and drawing. I also use it to browse the web, answer email, etc. But writing code? I do that on my laptop.

Re:Sounds like a training issue..

[PeanutButterBreath]

Having been in this situation twice in the last couple of years, I would bet the IT department did explain the limitations of the iPads and were overruled by the teachers who wanted shiny toys they could show off to their friends.

'Cause teachers always get what they ask for. Especially if it costs money.

Rethinking how to interact (input/edit)

[WebManWalking]

Perhaps you're thinking of the iPad too much like a laptop and not enough as a new way of interacting with a machine.

I've been using the dictation button on the new iPad and it works great. Much better than typing for bulk data input. Then when done, I go back and edit what it couldn't handle (usually not much). Admittedly not a good solution in a noisy classroom or teacher's lounge (background din of people talking), but otherwise, it's good.

Dictation tips: Say "comma", "period", "left paren", "right paren", "quote", "unquote" and "new paragraph" aloud, and it'll do it.

I wonder how much support Khan Academy will have for iPads (teachers monitoring kids running through lessons, like on 60 Minutes). That could be a pretty great use of a tablet. (Carry it with you as you walk from student to student to help them out.)

Re:Rethinking how to interact (input/edit)

[Zaelath]

No no, he's not eschewing an efficient data entry method which can be used in any office, in favour of a horrible one which requires a private setting and reworking of data because it's clearly imperfect.

The very idea that you would find "left paren" an acceptible alternative to typing ( is completely ridiculous unless you don't have use of your hands.

The GP defines fanboi.

Re:Rethinking how to interact (input/edit)

[Joce640k]

I've been using the dictation button on the new iPad and it works great. Much better than typing for bulk data input.

Don't you feel silly sitting there talking at a machine instead of typing? Imagine a whole room full of people doing it, all trying to correct the errors caused by everybody trying to shout louder than everybody else.

How well does editing work? Don't you miss having an easy way to select text, copy, paste, etc.

Maybe if you learned to type properly you'd be faster...

Re:Rethinking how to interact (input/edit)

[Ash-Fox]

I've been using the dictation button on the new iPad and it works great. Much better than typing for bulk data input. Then when done, I go back and edit what it couldn't handle (usually not much). Admittedly not a good solution in a noisy classroom or teacher's lounge (background din of people talking), but otherwise, it's good.

Theres a dictation button? I've been using "The new iPad" for months now and didn't even know. It didn't even come with a manual in the box.

Re:Rethinking how to interact (input/edit)

[Overzeetop]

Don't worry - it doesn't work unless you're dictating useless drivel like emails to your mother or coordinating a dinner date with friends. As soon as you step even slightly outside of the standard 1000 word American vocabulary it mangles everything. I have tried it for use in work (engineering, architecture) and for fun (music and theater) and the error rate is several percent. Now, a 93% correct rate seems awesome until you have to go back and manually edit 100 words scattered throughout a 1500 word report, and even a single mis-typed word can be embarrassing. It's much faster to type.

I actually find that typing short emails or forum posts on the iPad when in landscape is fairly efficient. But, as the OP mentioned, actual correction is challenging and frustrating. If Johnny Carson were playing the Amazing Kreskin, the answer would be "Arrows"; the question would be "what iPad users would like to shoot Steve Job s with for his keyboard layout."

Re:Rethinking how to interact (input/edit)

[aaarrrgggh]

When you need to do content creation on the go, would you rather dictate or fumble on the keyboard?

It is *far* from perfect, as trying to dictate this post showed me (ironically with a street sweeper passing ten feet away from me), but it gives an option. Some times the keyboard is a great way to transcribe thoughts, and sometimes it isn't.

Re:Rethinking how to interact (input/edit)

[david_thornley]

Consider the bare possibility that WebManWalking might not actually have been dictating a Lisp program. Saying "left paren" is more work than a single keystroke (if you have a keyboard and the ability to use it). Saying "Perhaps you're thinking of the iPad" is a lot easier than however many keystrokes that is. I'm a very good typist (87 wpm at last measurement), and I can talk faster and easier than I can type.

Do not judge someone to be a fanboi, lest you be judged as an anti-fanboi too poor to buy a clue.

Re:Rethinking how to interact (input/edit)

[Zaelath]

You might be able to talk 300WPM, but there's not a voice recognition program in the world that can transcribe that.

I've yet to see one that can match a resonable typist, and certainly not one that's running on a phone or an tablet using the less than ideal built in microphone.

So I'm left wondering, what's your point, pal?

Re:Rethinking how to interact (input/edit)

[Zaelath]

If you really need that functionality, that's why they invented dictaphones. They even have some that attempt to transcribe it for you, and then you use a real keyboard to clean up the horrible mess it creates.

Still looking for a point here too.

Re:Rethinking how to interact (input/edit)

[Wovel]

I am not sure why is it so hard to get the cursor where you want it to edit on web pages. Works fine for real apps, but nearly all web forms fall apart if you need to edit.

Re:Rethinking how to interact (input/edit)

[Wovel]

I dunno. People have been doing it with Dragon for years and years. Sometimes it is actually easier to dictate stuff than type. Really has nothing to do with fanboys. They fact that Siri's dictation surpasses anything Dragon ever imagined is just a bonus.

Re:Rethinking how to interact (input/edit)

[Zaelath]

By "people" you mean "people other than me, I've never tried it". As for Siri, you must have missed the hundreds of articles suggesting that she's suffering from some kind of brain injury, including Woz FFS.

I honestly think they must be pumping some neurotoxin into Apple stores.

Re:Rethinking how to interact (input/edit)

[Zaelath]

And just to be clear, it's not even like the iPhone/iPad is doing the real work, it's a massive cloud computer which means none of that even works without a solid internet connection, and it still fails a lot at comprehension.

From Apple's own TOS http://images.apple.com/legal/sla/docs/ios51.pdf

When you use Siri or Dictation, the things you say will be recorded and sent to Apple in order to convert what you say into text.

Re:Sounds like a training issue..

[ab_iron]

You mean that nobody gathered requirements, defined current state and projected future state? Let me see that RFP!

Re:Sounds like a training issue..

[Shadow99_1]

Oh please, the admin staff and teachers don't listen to the IT staff about 'limitations'. This applies to all technology. I should know I spent several years as the network admin and defacto Chief Information Officers (I had no one above me) for a school district. They would buy things without ever consulting me and then insist I make it work.

Even in the rare event they do listen, they only listen in ways they want to hear things.

A laptop is a toy. A desktop is a tool.

[Brannon]

A desktop is a toy, a workstation is a tool.
A workstation is a toy, a server is a tool.
A server is a toy, a mainframe is a tool.
A mainframe is a toy, a cluster is a tool.
A cluster is a toy, a supercomputer is a tool.

Idiots.

Not everyone needs to be IT literate.

[Brannon]

In fact it isn't good for society for everyone to carry the cognitive burden of being an expert in every device they interact with--that's kinda the whole point of technology. Just like not everyone needs to know how their automobile or microwave works. The general direction of appliance computing is a good one for most people--it sounds like in this case they didn't think things through, or maybe they're just having growing pains.

Re:Not everyone needs to be IT literate.

[Just Some Guy]

In fact it isn't good for society for everyone to carry the cognitive burden of being an expert in every device they interact with--that's kinda the whole point of technology. Just like not everyone needs to know how their automobile or microwave works.

"Literate" != "expert". No one's asking those teachers to be Donald Knuth, but they should have the basics of how the technology works and what it can be used for before trying to deploy it.

Re:Not everyone needs to be IT literate.

[thebigmacd]

Being literate means that you can use something to perform its intended task.

Knowing how to drive a car. How to fill up the fuel tank. How to lock it.
Knowing how to operate a microwave. Set the timer. Choose the power level.
Knowing how to read a book. Write sentences. Etc.

Since when did you have to know how to operate a printing press to be considered literate?

Being IT literate simply means that you know how to use IT to perform tasks. Is that too much to ask?

Re:Not everyone needs to be IT literate.

[tibit]

Everyone not knowing the basics of how a car or a microwave works costs them money. Real money. Mindboggling amounts of money. Knowledge has value measured in hard currency not merely because you get a better job, but because you won't be ripped off at every opportunity in your life. My neighbor was just quoted $1800 (USD) to replace a $35 A/C compressor clutch plate in her F150 truck. It's a 10 minute job, and that time includes washing your hands afterwards. The damn thing is held down with a single small screw, and you don't need to take anything else off to replace it.

Re:iPads are pretty incredible for schools

[jamesh]

Have you every actually watched someone using an ipad??

Look at this picture for a second. Now imagine the person using an ipad, with her head tilted down to where her hands are so she can see the screen. The phrase "ipad neck" exists to describe the condition this produces. I guess a bluetooth keyboard could make the situation better, but I bet chiropractors get wet with excitement when they hear about another school adopting iPads

Re:USB sticks?

[cusco]

USB sticks are one of my most useful tools at work, where I have to transfer files from multiple incompatible systems that may not be on a network at all much less the Internet. I still keep around a couple of 1 gb drives because of the couple of nasty old DVR models that I occasionally run into that won't recognize anything larger.

My sister-in-law is a teacher, and from the stories I hear I would shudder to think of trying to train parents to use Dropbox or one of the other cloud offerings. There are an awful lot of them who still can't figure out how to use freaking Hotmail (seriously). Besides which, there are still many people (especially in poor and rural areas) who still don't have Internet access for one reason or another. As soon as you start demanding that students have internet access in order to be able to do their work you have immediately created an entire class of students that are not allowed to succeed.

It's not a toy, but it isn't for everything.

[Brannon]

There are people who use iPads for real work, generally in fields where information input is bandwidth limited anyway (point of sale, inventory, augmentative communication, studying, reading specs, electronic flight bag/maps/gps/etc., quick emails, etc.). It's not as powerful as a laptop, but then a laptop isn't as powerful as a desktop, which isn't as powerful as a server, which isn't as powerful as a mainframe, which isn't as powerful as a cluster, which isn't as powerful as a supercomputer--see the point? Right tool, right job.

i'd pull my kids from a school like this

[milkmage]

"Some staff are needing to produce documents and resources by remoting in [to a PC] on an iPad,”

“One of the biggest problems is the storage, since you can’t connect USB memory sticks to it,”

someone didn't get requirements before signing the PO

Re:Sounds like a training issue..

[MindlessAutomata]

they got ipads, didn't they?

Style over substance

[nagasrinivas]

I'm sure the iPad has numerous applications in education, but to believe that it can replace your laptop if naive at best and irresponsible at worst. If these guys werent so illiterate - oh wait it was a school...

Re:Apple crap

[stevenfuzz]

Dude. AMAZING. If you were logged in I would use all my mod points on this.

Listen to IT next time

[asmkm22]

This is why, when you are not familiar with the technical aspects of IT, you pay people to recommend and implement solutions for you. It's funny when companies either don't do that, or ignore the professional advice given, and go with what they want anyway.

Oddly, around here is the opposite.

[Lumpy]

They are on year two of ipads here and they have no problems using the standard ipad -> appleTV. it's not "bizzare" as the uninformed article writer points out. In f act they are eliminating a huge amount of IT costs as they can have a projector and a AppleTV on the ceiling with no wires except for a single Cat5 drop and a small switch. no more AV needed.

Re:Oddly, around here is the opposite.

[Lumpy]

Send from an android tablet. and yes the android on screen keyboard sucks.

Re:iPads are pretty incredible for schools

[16K Ram Pack]

When you get into the "real world" use of tablets, not Jonny Ive sat lounging with one in an ad, but actually using one, you realise that they're actually a pretty bad idea. The positioning is all wrong. How do you watch a 2hr movie on one? Hold it up or look downwards. Neither are as comfortable as watching a movie on a TV or even a laptop where the screen is supported. Touch screens might be new, but they're not progress over more accurate and faster keyboards and mice.

A tablet offers less than a tablet, with few upsides. OK, they're smaller and lighter, but they're not so small as to give any advantages. Anywhere that you can take an iPad, you can take a laptop.

hmmm

[thatskinnyguy]

My use: PC for when I want to get things done and produce things of value. iPad for when I just want to dick around and not really do anything. The iPad or any tablet platform really isn't fit as a content producing platform. It's awesome for consuming content though.

Re:iPads are pretty incredible for schools

[BonThomme]

"especially in education, Toontastic, Sock Puppets, StoryRobe, Flixlab, Creative Book Builder, etc. "

Education. I do not think it means what you think it does.

No no no no!

[lightknight]

Let them stick with the iPads! The Windows people don't want the technically illiterate back. It's been nothing but spring cleaning and blue skies since Apple took the bottom 10% of our hands (sadly, their wallets as well, but I'm going to say "It's worth it!"). Let their genius bar keep dealing with them, there's still a lot of mileage left on them, we only heard about them beginning to crack the other day.

Re:Sounds like a training issue..

[lightknight]

Indeed. Switching the students over to an untested technology that is purely reliant on what will be congested wireless networks, all while running software that is largely compatible with itself.

They also probably thought they'd outsource themselves to 'teh Cloud,' or whatever the f*ck is supposed to make IT obsolete these days.

And using AppleTVs instead of a $30 cable also sounds like a decision the normally 'best bang for the buck' IT guys looks for.

Yeah, I believe that. Let's call it what it is: some administrators / teachers got their hands on some Apple hardware, it worked 'fine' for them at home, then they got everyone else on-board for the big change, which would help the school district save money by lowering IT costs or some other bullsh*t (because it just works!), and now they are learning the painful lesson that supporting one person is not the same as a few hundred.

Re:Sounds like a training issue..

[lightknight]

Yeah, it just works!

But God help you if you try do anything important with it. And Bob, how do we know that you won't be doing anything important with it? Because like your phone, it's not something easily hooked up to a printer. Important things typically need to be printed even in this day and age.

Re:How come blatant apple shills....

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

You wouldn't be confused if you knew the difference between a shill and a satisfied customer.

THIS. A thousand times THIS.

[The Other White Meat]

As an IT consultant for SMB, I am constantly having to moderate people's expectations for what they can accomplish on their tablet. From attorneys that want to create 50+ page legal documents on their iPad, to professionals who want to do everything that they would do on their desktop machine from anywhere in the world on their Nexus 7. These devices are great for web browsing, ebook reading, and other minor apps. Remote Desktop scenarios? - ok in a pinch, when you don't have your desktop with you, but not as your main device.

Please, if you want to get real work done, put down the tablet and pick up your laptop again.

I have a stupid idea

[viperidaenz]

Lets use the latest shiny consumer device to replace our current multipurpose productivity tools.

making history

[slashmydots]

That will be remembered as the first time somene got a fucking clue that tablets suck. When was it for netbooks? Sometime in 2009 I think. So companies took a netbook, walled it, took off the keyboard, and sold it to the same damn people as a new product! ANYONE buying a tablet should be forced to type a 2 paragraph facebook wall post on it first. There would be zero sales.

Re:USB sticks?

[lightknight]

What a waste. We already have a protocol that handles all of that -> it's called FTP, which stands for File Transfer Protocol.

And if you have a device which supports this ubiquitous FTP, you don't have to send the files all the way over the internet, just to move them to your laptop or desktop. But then, there are some people out there who like the idea that previously LAN-hosted games can now only be hosted via the author's internet server.

The thin is ...

[stevez67]

... tablets and smartphones are fine for selling $0.99 crap content to people who don't require quality or who don't need to do real work. At the end of the day tablets are about mass consumption ... the HFCS of content. People need to falling prey to the marketing saying the "next great thing" will be a universal device that will fulfill all their needs, and stick to buying the right tool for the right job.

Re:Android

[Shadow99_1]

I actually looked the other day and their will be a open office/libre office variant for android... Though right now solutions like Polaris Office exist that handle all the basic functions most people need. Also Google docs works fine on tablet (I use it for a book I'm writing) and that converts to word very well or PDF or a half dozen other formats...

Re:Android

[guruevi]

The story states the issue is compatibility with Office documents. Windows 8-powered tablets will have the same problem as they don't display legacy Office documents the same way as the desktop versions of Office would. Even among the desktop versions of Office there are differences in how they are displayed.

MS Office IS NOT a typesetting application people. It's really horrible at document editing, it doesn't even do a good job at typesetting.

Re:Sounds like a training issue..

[guruevi]

Yes they do. I work in education, I see everyday what people get away with. Some of them are really good teachers who have their heart in it and those are the stories that make the news of seemingly underpaid, really good teachers, but most of them are overpaid and underperforming sacks of shit who couldn't care less about anything but their pay check and the only reason they still have a job is because they are part of a union who will raise hell if not everyone gets the same income and benefits regardless of their performance. That's why the really good teachers are underpaid, because the unions strive for and encourage everyone to become the lowest common denominator.

iPad's are under a $1000 so probably not even considered as a capital expense so almost no approval was needed and this just came out of some budget. Almost everything else in a school is over $1000 so that requires heaven and earth to be moved in order to get it through the review committee's and budget commissions which by the time it is done, the tech will be 3 years old. Where I work for example the furniture is contracted out to a company who charges about $7,000 for a teacher's desk. They get away with it because all local businesses know that when they deliver they probably won't get paid for (literally) 9 months to 3 years as the paperwork goes through several government bureaucracies.

Umm? Weren't they supposed to...

[jampola]

You know, kinda, like, test anything new in the wild before going ahead and fulfilling an order?? Some purchasing manager is about to have a very bad fiscal year!

the problem is Apple software

[kenorland]

Apple's iPad software is targeted at home users and aimed at maximizing Apple revenues by any means possible. That's obviously not good software to use for education.

They should have bought Android tablets instead; they allow most of the things you can do on a laptop, yet retain the simplicity and automatic updating of the iPad.

Re:the problem is Apple software

[Overzeetop]

Apple's iPad software is targeted at home users.

If you had stopped there, you would have nailed it. iPads are not mean for industrial environments. Yes, they can be altered, but they are really a single user consumption device. They happen to work in limited ways for certain business uses, but there are usually better solutions.

Android tablets are almost as walled off from the rest of your IT infrastructure, and have the same input problems. Unfortunately, the advantages of Android tablets - the stuff that could make them better than iOS tablets - is entirely lost on nearly all IT professionals. Also, the cost to properly customize a school-wide roll out of tablets with a proper back end, remote projection, translation from MS documents on servers to editable documents on the tablet, is far beyond not just the skill of most IT groups but the budget of nearly all schools.

Re:the problem is Apple software

[kenorland]

Android tablets are almost as walled off from the rest of your IT infrastructure, and have the same input problems.

Android tablets not only have much better on-screen keyboards, there are several Android tablets that dock to a keyboard, giving you a thin and light, easy-to-use device.

Also, the cost to properly customize a school-wide roll out of tablets with a proper back end, remote projection, translation from MS documents on servers to editable documents on the tablet, is far beyond not just the skill of most IT groups but the budget of nearly all schools.

The same is true for a "school-wide roll out of" Windows laptops, Macintosh laptops, and iPads. Android gives people an alternative, either by giving them devices that "just work" yet still can be customized by users, or by integrating with Google Apps.

Re:No - laptiops got to go

[tqk]

A laptop is a middling compromize. This sticking touch pad is a pain in the ass.

Which is why I always use external mice.

This screen is too fucking small for work. And this processessor is too big or small for what this peice of shit is going to be used for.

I hate that laptop screens seem to just get bigger and bigger, so I have to throw away perfectly good laptop bags.

Gimme a desktop for crunching numbers, coding, or anything else that requires hours on end in front of a fucking box.

AKA, gaming.

It's the fucking laptop that's a middling compromise for sit. And my fucking thumbs keeps hitting the goddman pad so I have to keep my hands at this god aweful angle to type without having the the damnn cursor go off into lala land.

My HP dv4 has a physical switch right beside the trackpad that I can use to turn it off. The software I use lets me turn it off on my other machines.

Laptops come with built-in UPS, ports (!!!), DVD burner (physical backups), and you might even be able to fix it if it ever breaks.

Re:No - laptiops got to go

[Bert64]

Laptops come with built-in UPS, ports (!!!), DVD burner (physical backups), and you might even be able to fix it if it ever breaks.

Tablets come with the built in UPS too...

Do you actually use DVDs for backups? I used to, and i found the media degraded quickly and was easily damaged if not stored properly. Also the capacity is small by todays standards, so swapping media around is a hassle. I would rather backup to a large capacity hdd, and do so over the network so i don't have to carry it around. Also if you do network backups, you can store really important stuff at a different physical location which will be very useful if your house burns down.

OFFS!

[pbjones]

of course they did a trail before doing this, didn't they?

Re:Restricted FileSystem and No Fine Movement Inpu

[itsdapead]

1. Buy a stylus. Problem solved.

iPad styli are just plastic fingers. Any improvement over fingers is marginal... The OS isn't 'stylus aware' so (for e.g.) resting your hand on the screen causes rogue inputs. Haven't tried a Galaxy Noteb ut it sounds interesting.

The lesson here...

[Goth Biker Babe]

Is that if you're incompetent you're incompetent regardless of the equipment! I've seen five year old kids doing what those teachers failed to do!

Re:The lesson here...

[Overzeetop]

You mean opening MS Word and Powerpoint documents residing on a corporate server so they could edit and resave back to the server directly from an iPad. Do tell the secret of these 5 year old wizards.

Re:The lesson here...

[Goth Biker Babe]

They're intelligent. My sister was coding at 5!

The right tool for the right job!

[bgibby9]

My G+ post says it all! https://plus.google.com/104513481148804401726/posts/ZkXvYYfoXpD

On Android (and really any other platform)

[IBitOBear]

You can always just gmail it to yourself or the recipient unless you are completely internet dead.

And if you are completely internet dead, good old bluetooth can push objects around locally.

iClod is only going to let you move things to another iSue product.

I have seen a complete review of exactly this

[Yvanhoe]

I went to a presentation of experimental education techniques (it was in France) where several classes used either laptops or tablets (both iPads and android), lend to students, and tested adapted applications with that.

Their conclusions were not that clear. They mentioned the troubles of using a totally closed system like Apple's but also mentioned something I did not realize : tablets tend to be more robust than PCs. Classes had a lot more hardware problems with laptops than with tablets.

Tablets are great for sharing and exploring, not so much for writing and they identified copy-pasting operations as being the less practical operation. Also, a lack of educational applications for tablets (compared to laptops) was also a concern.

However, laptops are great for solitary work, but tablets are great for group work, as it is as easy to pass one around as it is to pass a sheet of paper.

I hope they will try transformer tablets soon. These have the best of both worlds.

We've been saying this for years

[elabs]

The iPad stinks for almost everything but simple web browsing. For some reason it's so hyped up that people think it's the solution to all their problems... until thy actually get one and the truth sets in. The media doesn't help. Every tablet is "my iPad" and every phone is "my iPhone".

Right tool for the job.

[nosfucious]

Rules of getting things done:

1: Right tool for the job.

If in doubt, read rule 1.

Newspapers might be only be able to display static text, but you probably don't want to use your tablet to swap a fly or mozzie. Then again, anything printed on paper never ran out of batteries

Did no one create a use case, or justification? And then run a proof of concept? Or did the whole team just get a case of the "oooooh, aaah, shinies"?

SDUSD ditching all apple products completely

[mreine]

The San Diego Unified School District is removing all ipad's, iphone's, mac computers and laptops from all school's and Administrative offices. We will be replacing the iphone's form Administration with Android phones, the Tablets with either Nexus 7 devices or Galaxy Tab's. The apple desktops and laptops will be replaced with Windows devices. My company expects to have this completed by summer 2013 so I am not suprised to read this story. My company does approximately 50% of our business replacing apple products with Android and Windows. Businesses are realizing that apple products are overpriced toys and upgrading to Android and Windows is the solution 99% of our projects end up going with.

Tablets are for intaking information, not creating

[squash_me_quickly]

Tablets have a place in education, but that should really be limited to providing information.
  - If one can reduce the amount of books the students have to carry around, great.
  - If one wants to able teachers to create/modify classwork "on the fly", great.
  - If one wants to save trees, CO2, etc., great
  - If there is an app for doing multiple choice tests, great

Just shouldn't have expect that "real computers" could be replaced by tablets.

One can improve a tablets input capability easily, one can get a cover which has a bluetooth keyboard, and a mouse.... and then one probably should have bought laptops/netbooks.

A Word?

[Gonoff]

Laptops

Re:USB sticks?

[vlm]

3) Are you really going to trust Dropbox to store all that raunchy amateur porn you did with your wife?

LOL the context was elementary school 4th grade back to school shopping lists

Re:USB sticks?

[vlm]

transfer files from multiple incompatible systems that may not be on a network

Yeah they frown upon people jumping the air gap firewall at work, they filled the USB holes with hot glue. Supposedly too easy to spread windows viruses. If the whole point of the embedded device is not being able to upgrade either the app or the OS... you can't update the anti-virus either. I believe there's some MSSQL servers on production still vulnerable to SQL slammer from the 90s.

My sister-in-law is a teacher

Yeah I have one of those too, but she teaches K so at that age they don't require flash drives, probably because the kids are still young enough to eat them / chew on them.

As soon as you start demanding that students have ... in order to be able to do their work you have immediately created an entire class of students that are not allowed to succeed.

The mystification is what success in education has to do with ... being replaced above with either internet access to a cloud app or flash drives. I guess in a couple years when my kids hit 4th grade I'll find out. Anyone know an antique store where I can buy the specified "1 GB" flash drive? By then it'll be easier to buy a 1 TB SATA attached SSD, and I'm not exaggerating.

Idiocracy

[MrKaos]

Such an obvious case of non IT staff making IT decisions. People who know nothing about IT decisions, and make them should be made to live with their idiocracy. I have zero sympathy for them because they did not understand their own needs and they still don't want to ask how they go about solving them to save the remains of their budget. They let taxpayers and their students down.

Idiocracy in action as they all said "shiney, shiney".

iOS vs Droid

[Anonymous Coward]

It never fails to amaze. We spent years talking our staff into getting more mobile, we tested and tested. The tech tech decided to go fully mobile with droid, keeping towers/laptops for things like dvd burning and such to support classrooms/labs and servers when needed (not often). All other tasks were done with VPN/RDP/SAMBA and network resources. We had no problems servicing events, locations, or users from anywhere in the US [we didn't even have to take advantage of the Micro-SD cards and converters to USB devices we had prepared to use..
The staff department enjoyed our success and enhanced response time so much they decided to head down the path of complete mobile as well and began buying iPads. Complete and total failure occurred. No flash, no java, no powerpoint or word support that was reliable. RDP was costly at best, unreliable at worst. As was VPN services. Today, they have scrapped the idea of going mobile to even the point of only having laptops that can be 'checked out' not laptops to keep mobile.

Best you ask, yes the staff did ask us how we performed, what we used, and our results. They asked us for our opinion of iOS for the same functionality, since we tested iPad and droid tablets head to head we informed them of our successes and failures and how we landed at the droid decision. They ignored our results, advice, and expertise... they even purchased iPad 2 devices for their grads that year ... all to the end result of failure and technology budget cut backs. Sad.
If one does not do research and testing, one can expect huge finical loss upon failure.

ok so

[jon3k]

I agree, laptop is way better than an iPad for this use case. But a couple things bugged me. #1 using an AppleTV to send output to a TV is really obvious and nice, it uses a feature called AirPlay that mirrors the iPad or sends video via WiFi to the AppleTV. And #2, USB sticks to move files? Really, in 2012? Who still does this? I use filebrowser for local fileservers and Dropbox for everything else. Filebrowser is actually fantastic for quickly pulling up files.

Again, I absolutely think they made a poor choice and should stick with laptops, but some of these "problems" are not iPad problems. They are competency problems.

In Soviet Russia...

[mapkinase]

In Soviet Russia we used to call such activities "administrative itch".

Re:No - laptiops got to go

[tqk]

Do you actually use DVDs for backups?

I can fit my $HOME on a CD actually. I use afio (cpio clone) with bzip. I've not noticed media degradation in the more than a decade I've been doing it this way, but then I've no kids splattering catsup everywhere. I also play around a lot with LiveCDs.

I won't be going to a tablet anytime soon. They appear to be entertaining trinkets from what I can tell, but that's all.

Interoperability is the REAL problem!

[El Fantasmo]

The real issue here is Apple. They don't really want you be be able to do anything easily that doesn't involve a revenue stream outside Apple Inc.; it's too proprietary to be cost effective and sustainable over the long term for schools where money is tight and stubborn administrators are trying hopelessly to compete with wealthier schools. Here's an example: to send video wirelessly you have to buy another Apple product, Apple TV. Technology should use quality, open standards for all interfaces on all hardware, in other words interoperability that can't be blocked by greedy companies, e.g, if you have a networked video projector, there should be nothing extra you need to buy to wirelessly send it video from your ipad. If you, the end user, CHOOSE to use a proprietary codec/protocol, fine, as long as it's a CHOICE. This will force companies to compete on interface, hardware, and pricing, NOT today's golden goose "lock in/walled garden." We need to enrich the lives of our students and the world not the pockets of proprietary technology companies.

Re:USB sticks?

[DickBreath]

Heh, heh. The reason I wanted to bluetooth file transfer the file to an iPhone user was because the iPhone user doesn't know about this magical FTP business. So you're reinforcing that it's a good thing that iPhone users remain isolated from compatibility with everything else.

You don't need teaching "applets"

[tlambert]

You want me to type a test about logarithms with keynote?

No, I'd prefer you do it in HTML and put it up on an internal web server for use by other teachers. You can edit HTML in a browser, no problem.

 

What am I suppose to create my teaching applets with?

Given that the devices in question are for the teachers use and not the kids use, I'm highly doubtful that you need teaching applets at all, but assuming you actually do, the correct answer for that is "you do it in X Code on the one or two Macintoshes that the school bought as part of the support infrastructure when they bought the iPads.

In the meantime I need to brush up on LaTeX and install LyX again but most worksheets, tests, investigative tasks, etc. are all typed with a version of Word and Microsoft's Formula Editor. Not having a compatible formula editor is a nonstarter.

By "compatible", you mean "buy into the whole Microsoft ecosystem using the Microsoft Formula Editor as a gateway drug", right?

Re:You don't need teaching "applets"

[efitton]

You doubt I need teaching applets? Really? And I don't just USE teaching applets I WRITE THEM! With my interactive whiteboard why would I want to use dynamic geometry software?

Look, the entire ecosystem used the gateway drug. Thats the reality. So I can be incompatible with every other math teacher in the world and have my students learn less and make you happy or I can use just a hint of pragmatism and use the same software as everyone else.

So 40 teachers share 2 laptops and then just iPads. This is beyond facepalm.

Re:You don't need teaching "applets"

[efitton]

Additionally, ignoring that hmtl is suppose to be written for the web and not for paper (and believe it or not I like paper tests) and html doesn't guarantee format for the printed page, the pain of log base 2 of x is equal to 9 is not trivial to type. Given that I can put my test as a word document or pdf on an internal file server or on a cloud server you have made my life harder with zero benefit. Thanks.

Re:You don't need teaching "applets"

[tlambert]

Both my grandmothers (teachers) and two of my aunts (teachers, one for children with behavioral problems) used a typewriter and ditto machines for their tests. They damn well did not need Microsoft Word, and their students landed men on the moon and rovers on Mars.

There's no reason you /need/ a pixel level "mac-dinking" program like Microsoft Word to write a test. There is no reason you need dynamic geometry software or an interactive whiteboard if you know constructions; that will take you all the way through trig.

I have a hard time believing that you /need/ more advanced technology than textbooks, a copy machine, paper, pencils, a chalkboard, and a big chalk compass to teach pretty much anything up to and including calculus. Unless you're a music teacher, PE teacher, or a biology teacher, then you need musical instruments, gym equipment, and fetal pigs.

Does some technology make things easier in the classroom? Yes. But you quickly reach a point of diminishing returns, and as soon as you get there, you aren't buying teaching aids, you are buying toys.

Re:You don't need teaching "applets"

[efitton]

I am a BETTER teacher with my "toys." My students gain deeper understanding because I am willing to spend days writing my "toys." I have taught with a chalk board and my students learned and learned well. It does not compare to what I am able to do now. And how nice that your nana's taught and I would be happy to have a conversation with them. However, how many education classes have you had? How many students have you taught? With what methods? How many parents have you called?

This is my seventh year teaching. That does not include a full year of student teaching, teaching summer school in Detroit, teaching summer school in Lansing. I have taught in the suburbs, the inner city and for the last five years in a rural district. I have had a chalk board, a book and nothing else and I have had the above and a projector and I now have an interactive whiteboard. I am three credits from a Masters in Education Technology. That's my background, hell, you can even look at some of my applets on efitton.net.

And if you want to see me using my interactive board and an applet as part of my essay for MSU that is a couple of years old: http://efitton.net/#VideoGoalsEssay. If you are bored you could also search google for "Eric Fitton." I believe my blog from my MSU classes the summer of 2011 is in the top five hits: efitton.edublogs.org or if you want to know what I've been up to this last summer: profile.efitton.net.

Not only does the whiteboard help with student understanding, it also gains me about ten minutes of instruction time every hour. If you want to look at my other posts on this thread you might also learn something about school funding at that while there are diminishing returns, IWBs are not cutting into teacher salaries, staff size or books. The funding pools are incredibly complex. So I guess what I am saying, is that I have the education and experience that makes me an expert in this situation. And you can pry my IWB out of my cold, dead hands.

Re:You don't need teaching "applets"

[tlambert]

Look, I'll respond to your ad hominim questions, but after you've read the responses, read the rest about the situation here in California.

However, how many education classes have you had?

8, college level, on a quarter system, total of 26 credit hours, which is one class shy of the minimum required for a bachelors of education at some colleges.

How many students have you taught?

Including those in computer science classes and the intro to physics classes, maybe 120? Including one and two-shot presentations, week long seminars, and labs at professional conferences like WWDC? About 7,000. And yeah, I used technology in almost all but the physics classes, but there was technology there, as props (a bowling ball on a rope is a pendulum, which is technology, right?). They were classes about technology. Most of the time I used a whiteboard or presentation software, but I've also used an overhead projector with water soluble pens.

Non-professionally (as a student), I TAed a number of classes and helped students in chemistry and CS labs as a lab assistant for another 800 or so.

With what methods?

Mostly lecture, demonstration, repetition, participation, and reflection.

How many parents have you called?

None. Typically you don't need to call parents of University students or people who pay to attend seminars or professional conferences. I've called security a couple of times, though. IMO it's the damn principals job to do the parent calling at the primary education level. Let him/her do it.

I'm not saying you can't do incrementally better with a bunch of expensive technology. Rich private schools can generally get better results than public schools, but the generally also have involved parents, which is more important than having a bunch of computers, and they typically have in loco parentis agreements which let the teacher/school actually effectively discipline the student, even if they never get discipline at home.

But also realize my SO basically runs a program for California schools in the Bay Area that begs for donations of pencils, paper, dry erase markers, erasers, pencil sharpeners, boxes of crayons, and other basic supplies for primary education in public schools whose higher up administrators make almost a quarter of a million dollars a year each:

http://www.sanleandro.k12.ca.us/20771083115311603/lib/20771083115311603/Supt__Salary_11-12.pdf

That's 5 times the median household income for a resident there: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Leandro,_California , and that's basically Oakland (it's right next to the Oakland airport), which is generally acknowledged as a poverty pit, and in 2006 was called "The Murder Capitol of the US".

Something is freaking wrong here, if they were to also start handing out iPads to teachers who were begging for basic supplies from a charity (not that there isn't enough indication above of something being wrong already). If they have money for iPads and multiple administrators, who after 5 years of "frugally" spending the entire median household income per year walk away millionaires, they damn well can afford pencils for the students.

Mmmm yeah schadenfreude

[GameboyRMH]

It's like an orgasm without the mess ^_^

Applets make me a better teacher.

[efitton]

And in Michigan you can use property taxes for iPads, computers, iwbs, batting cages and other capital expenses. You can't use property taxes for salaries, books or pencils. So my district cuts my salary 10% (and every other teacher and administrator by the same amount) and begs for pencils but we do actually have interactive white boards. Funding of public schools is incredibly complicated as it involves federal, state and local monies and federal and state laws and everything varies drastically state to state. And obviously this doesn't even scratch the surface of how grants work.

I will readily agree that there are hundreds of variables with education. I also know that if I did not have my IWB from changing school districts I would make my own using the MIT hack using a wii remote because it is that powerful in my classroom. But all I heard from you for the first few posts had nothing to do with the complexity of teaching, education and funding. What you were writing and claiming was that I didn't need applets (and shouldn't be using them), I should use a private website rather than a file server, I should write paper tests using html and choose to use incompatible software with the rest of my profession, etc.

But what is really odd is that you started saying that AN IPAD WAS BETTER THAN A LAPTOP! My solutions to technology was more powerful and cheaper than what you advocated 10 messages up. Now however, you seem entirely against any electronic technology.

Re:Applets make me a better teacher.

[tlambert]

I'm not against the technology. You have no idea of the patents I hold (or the DOD secrecy orders), some of them assigned to Apple, some to IBM, some to Google. I'm a senior associate at IMM. What I'm against is the idea that there is somehow a funding fix for stupid ideas being successful just because underfunding of the stupid idea somehow pushes it out of stupid.

You really do not need a bunch of crap that can be wiped out by one EMP in order to teach. If you do, you are a defective teacher.

The immediacy of a tablet has merits. Lots of them. The backing infrastructure for that is HUGE, but frankly, it's already there.

Maybe we need to talk offline how to recharacterize moves in the right direction as approved expenditures, but if your intent is to get funding for non-dumbass moves, I think we can agree :).