Slashdot Mirror
Notch Won't Certify Minecraft For Windows 8
MojoKid writes "The backlash against Windows 8 from various developers continues, but this time a game's creator isn't just expressing discontent. Notch, the developer behind smash hit Minecraft, has declared that he won't be working with Microsoft to certify Minecraft for Windows 8. Note that this doesn't mean Minecraft won't run on Windows 8. The certification process in question is Microsoft's mandatory rules for submitting content to the Windows game store. In order to be listed there, an application must be Metro-compatible and conform to a laundry list of other conditions. The real problem with Windows 8 is that it locks ARM users into a second class experience. If you buy an x86 tablet, you can download programs from SourceForge, GitHub, or any file mirror. If you're an ARM user, you can download programs from the Microsoft store and that's it. The bifurcated permission structure is the problem, and it makes WinRT tablets categorically impossible to recommend for anyone who values the ability to install whatever software they please."
Windows being Windows, I don't forsee any real future issues with getting your own apps on the ARM version. Just the nature of Windows will probably make it much easier to work around, and if the userbase grows enough it will move along that much faster. Microsoft is trying the walled garden technique the Apple has going, but I don't foresee it being as effective or foolproof as Apple's.
Sometimes I feel like Microsoft si kind of flopping around like a fish on land when it comes to tablets. Even though they technically had a headstart, they've only just started their move to tablets and it feels rushed. The current release cycle of good > bad > good > bad will most likely continue and Windows 8 will flop. At least I hope it does and it will force them to rethink their stupid Start menu removal, amongst other things.
That Ballmer would understand that a large portion of windows past success was due in part to the fact that software for the system was available anywhere. Now upon porting to a new platform, he wants to emulate apples walled garden, which only worked because of vendor lock in and the desirbility of the device. It won't work. Android is proving that an open market gains more market share. With at least 3 other options (iOS, Android, and regular windows), users will likely stick with those platforms unless tricked or forced, and MS doesnt have the power in the mobile market to force.
So now there are at least 2 aspects of Win8 that should fail, the interface, and the locked down ARM version
Disclaimer: Sent from android phone.
Silence is a state of mime.
nice software you have, shame if something was to happen to it (like scary warning dialogs)
how anti-trust regulators are not all over this is a mystery
You know what looks even better? Anything other than a fucking tablet.
Keep Ballmer. He makes software news funny.
you're a troll telling people to shut up, YOU SHUT UP tumbleweed.
Apple has a walled garden. That's it. Android does too. Microsoft has a walled garden, but if you have an x86 tablet, you can plant petunias and begonias if you want in there. That seems like an improvement to me. And it's likely a technical reason too: all those Windows-native calls/hooks that your typical Windows-compatible applications require likely do not exist on the ARM version of Windows 8 (I'm not a Windows programmer/guru, so I'm speculating here, but seems likely no?).
body massage!
Notch developed most of the game by himself in the beginning. Then when he started hiring people Jeb eventually took over development and Notch doesn't do any code for minecraft anymore. So yes, he did develop the main base game by himself, but anything that's happened in the past year(?) has been all Jeb and the other developers.
Also I'd say it's more the press taking his tweets and blowing them up rather than him being some kind of PR supergod, almost every single one of his tweets ends up on some news site somewhere, even the inane ones. What's he supposed to do about that, stop tweeting altogether?
Not to mention he's just saying what we're all thinking. ;)
Regardless of the fact that he may be whoring for attention, he does make a valid point. How are you going to explain to consumers that Windows RT and Windows x86 aren't' the same when they are being marketed under the same brand? It's going to be very confusing.
Microsoft Windows native/legacy applications -- a massive massive software ecosystem unparalleled by any other OS/platform (besides the Web perhaps?) -- is the reason why they can never turn their backs on it. Its the key to their power, but with power comes a great responsibilit^H^H^H burden.
They will try, but at the end of the day, the Microsoft walled garden will always have the gate left open.
body massage!
I'd say Microsoft shot itself in the foot here, not by enacting the walled garden (which is bad), but by not releasing a compat layer to run WinRT executables on earlier versions of i386/amd64 Windows.
No one is really going to port stuff just for porting sake, and the API is quite different, with no obvious upsides. As for users, there are three groups:
* Windows Phone 8: laughed at, and without software it's a chicken-and-egg problem
* Windows 8 for business: no sane business is going to migrate for 5 or so years
* Windows 8 for home users: they don't upgrade for the (non-existing) coolness factor but by getting Windows with replacement hardware
Thus, the only real way to get actual users for WinRT software in the short term would be making it possible to run it on Windows 7 (and if they really cared, even XP). With no users, there will be no serious developers.
The creatures outside looked from Alt-Right to Antifa; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
OH MS IS SOOO EVVVIL. Give it a rest. Seriously.
Apple mobile devices need special attention to give the elite users the ability to do what they want with it.
Android devices need special attention to give elite users the ability to do what they want with it.
MS is going the route of "If you're the type of person that shouldn't run with scissors then buy our locked down tablet" then great. I'm sure the ARM device will be shattered or whatever the people that create the exploit call it just like the others.
MS is just trying to be Apple.
I have the Transformer Tablet with keyboard and, while yes it is very, very useful it really still isn't a general purpose computing device. You can run linux on it in a chroot, but that only gives you X over VNC. Its possible to evetually dual boot it since it boots linux already anyways. People have been doing this one the prime. In that context it is actually fairly impressive and had 3d acceleration...though I don't think sound works yet. From the videos I've seen it performs much like a netbook running linux. Like a 2nd generation netbook. Most of the apps for android are optimized for phones, so that is a downside. There aren't a huge number of productivity apps for android on tablets. There are some nice apps though. Honestly I use this more than my notebook now. The screen has the same resolution roughly and is smaller so it looks better. For internet communication and web browsing this thing is pretty awesome. Also I am photographer and I can just plug in an external usb powered mini drive and dump my sd cards straight to the drive pretty quickly. Ghost commander works well as a file manager too. I have the bootloader unlocked and I'm running the hydro jellybean rom atm. Its still a little buggy and the i/o is awful right now, but its still a very fast and usable tablet. Some of the games rock too.
zosxavius photography
If he isn't just trolling about Windows, and instead does want to make a point about the "value of being able to install your own software", why is there an official Minecraft client for iOS?
Did he suddenly grow a pair because it's Microsoft?
Or is he just more likely to take a stand using a platform which isn't likely to lose him any money if he stays away from it because of his views?
I'm going to go with the last one...
The same way you explain the difference between iOS and OSX.
And, you will have 30 days to return your tablet if you don't like it.
And, if winRT starts selling, there will be a Minecraft port on it within 72 hours (remember it's on every game console, iOS device, which have the same requirements). So the OP is actually making a good point here.
steam is far from being the anti MS. they both, like apple, want to lock their users into never really owning content, having to go though them to do anything with what they bought... Apple is wildly successful at it, Steam quite successfful, and MS not yet in the consumer space.
The Cloud - because you don't care if your apps and data are up in the air.
So yes, he did develop the main base game by himself
INFINIMINER EXISTED
Just thought you should know that... Educate yourself. That's all I have to say to you.
you explain to them that RT != x86. It's in the name, so the bran dis not "the same"(sic).
The Cloud - because you don't care if your apps and data are up in the air.
Why did you feel the need to put *indie*?
You do realise the game is indie, right? Stop being a moron who thinks Indie is a genre.
But yes, I agree with everything else.
The game only became popular because of rumor and speculation. Before that, it was limited to a few no-name people on Youtube, 4chan and a few other small communities.
It was only until Jeb and the others took over that things actually started to get anywhere.
It stagnated like hell before between the periods when it wasn't really known until they came on board. (aka, the "greedy jew" thing that a lot of communities mention when attacking Notch)
There is no doubt the game did lag behind considerably when that moment happened, but a lot of work was getting an actual business up and running as well as hiring people, finding an office, legal, etc.
Was he lazy with Minecraft? Probably for a little bit, but not much since he was giving development over to Jeb. He probably spent a bit of time tidying things up and making sure there wasn't stuff only the Mind Of Notch understood. (like why he was returning 1 for a random function...)
In particular the whole Unlimited Detail hilarity got me. Funny how he never replied again after they uploaded the engine show-off with HardOCP and a couple others. (and had to latch on to Carmacks words by twisting them in to something they weren't)
Ever since he got success he thinks he is some sort of diva of a coder.
But to call him a troll is rather incorrect. He actually does have a product. Most trolls actually don't have anything behind them.
You could have been just a notch friendlier, you know.
Forgot to mention to that it's probably all about greed.
That is a given. It's always about "greed"; whether it's for money, recognition, and anytime you "want". Everyone is greedy somehow. Even Buddhist monks who give up everything because they are greedy for enlightenment or Christian monks who are greedy for Jesus.
Anyway, whenever one uses "it's about greed", they sound like an eight year old on a playground.
Imagine if Apple only allows you to install software from their store on the iPad !
That and I highly doubt this has anything to do with problems with the Windows 8 platform and much more to do with the fact that Minecraft is written in Java, and therefore would have to be ported to "something else" in order to meet the game store requirements.
Of course, astute Minecraft fans would know that the game already has been ported to "something else" multiple times in order to make the Xbox 360 and iOS releases. So presumably, if Notch didn't want to be an ass, he could just make the Xbox 360 version the "official" version and port that back to Windows and - presto, he'd have a Windows 8 game store capable version, right there.
But that would involve not being a drama whore. And would probably improve the game experience by not requiring his users to install a giant security hole just to play the game.
You are in a maze of twisty little relative jumps, all alike.
Notch has made at least 17 games in addition to Minecraft.
Funny Farm, Luxor, Carnival Shootout, MEG4kMAN, Left 4k Dead, t4kns, Miners4k, Hunters4k, Dungeon4k, Sonic Racer 4k, Dachon4k, l4krits, Blast Passage, Bunny Press, Breaking the Tower, Infinite Mario Bros, Minicraft.
+0 Meh
Not to mention that he quite happily did minecraft pocket edition for the ipad, an ARM ecosystem that is just as restrictive as the Microsoft app store on windows RT.
No hypocrisy there, no siree.
Consumers went 'ohhh, walled garden, totally restricted to one vendor, apple decides what apps I'm allowed to install, awesome' and bought the things by the utter truckload.
The most common complaint about android is that Google doesn't exercise ENOUGH control over the OEMs to prevent fragmentation
Is it any surprise that Microsoft went 'seriously? A walled garden where we get to cream a big slice of profit on every bit of software is what customers want? Alrighty then!'
Remember kids, it's all fun and games until someone commits wholesale galactic genocide.
Seriously? He made two comments on twitter, of which he's an active user, and the media picked it up. I don't quite see how that's trolling for attention.
You, on the other hand, seem to be doing quite well at it.
.
And like all rock stars, it's "issue of the day" bandwagon for him. Where was he when MCraft got certified for Apple's AppStore ?
The Cloud - because you don't care if your apps and data are up in the air.
iOS and OSX look very different and run on different devices, whereas, Windows RT and Windows x86 look exactly the same and will run on identical hardware. Also, there isn't an OSX tablet to compete with an iOS tablet.
Hey, I thought Apple held the patent on locking users into an app store? They should sue MicroSoft for patent infringement.
So if you give a little you have to give up the whole lot no matter how bad it seems to be getting?
Most devs use XNA for xbox development, but XNA is not supported on the RT variant. Now you know.
I love my tablet but it doesn't replace my computer, it augments it.
The bifurcated permission structure is the problem, and it makes WinRT tablets categorically impossible to recommend for anyone who values the ability to install whatever software they please."
Hence the reason for the very existence of this smoldering pile of dung known as an "operating system." Active-denial system would be more like it...
what's your point? no secret that the failed game Infiniminer (discontinued commercially after one month in marketplace) inspired Notch to write MINECRAFT. So Notch made the winning sandbox game, and you bring up a loser. so what?
Wow. You literally just claimed both that Notch did not create Minecraft, and that Windows RT on ARM will not be locked down to the Microsoft store!
Care to prove either of those claims? Even just a teeny bit?
And whoever modded your lies as insightful should be ashamed.
Insightful? Really? Who exactly is the greedy one here? It seems to me that forcing people to go through the MS Store would be a bit more greedy than a developer wanting to sell his program on his own terms and not have to pay someone else for what exactly? And who cares if it even is the first game he's ever made... it's still a very popular game. I didn't realize one of the requirements for being a relevant game developer is that you have to develop lots of games.
Jealous of success? Notch did originally write Minecraft, yes it was inspired by at least two other similar games that didn't take off commercially. Notch's company Mojang pulls in $80M USD a year in revenue. Of course he's good at development, marketing, selling, PR.
So shouldn't it be the JVM that is certified for the platform? Minecraft doesn't make any platform dependant system calls directly as far as I'm aware. The part that is LWJGL may be an exception, but Mojang didn't write that.
Please do not encourage the troll by calling his lies "facts" ;}
He claims Notch did not create Minecraft, yet Notch has live updated Minecraft while coding on it with a crowd of thousands around him at a convention held in his games name...
He continues with a claim that someone else wrote most of the code, when in fact Notch wrote most of the code and only recently handed it off for updates to another person, very very recently.
While technically speaking, lies are indeed facts, at least call it "false facts" as they are supposed to be called :P
The code for Minecraft is not based on the code for Infiniminer. They are two different code bases. Notch wrote Minecraft from scratch. He was influenced by ideas from Infinimner and other games. Infiniminer has different gameplay than Minecraft. Minecraft is not an Infinminer clone anymore than Galaga is a Space Invaders clone.
... and the impending death of Windows/PC as an open, general-computing platform by the hands of Microsoft. He didn't mention tablets once in his tweets.
body massage!
If you were earning millions and millions, would you want to give 30%+ away to MS or Valve, for very little beyond a billing system and content hosting?
Not really greed, just good business sense, IMHO.
Ballmer's an idiot!
*dons tinfoil hat* It'd be great for the future of Linux (and possibly even the future of the human race) in things are as simple as they appear to be on the surface. My concern is that this business of Microsoft - and, to a lesser degree, Intel - seeming to shoot themselves in the foot with this nonsense is that it runs a lot deeper and has a lot more to do with making inroads against general-purpose computing than most of us suspect.
So members of the Apple lawyers team has found there way here.
This.
You can't complain about Apple or MS whilst being a Valve fanboy. Yes, the Steam user experience is great. The developer experience isn't so good (Loads of developers aren't allowed in. Greenlight was a bit of a clusterfuck. And if you get in, it'll cost you a large chunk of your revenue)
I really wish Valve would split up into two companies... the awesome company that makes amazing games, and the evil company that's just about managed to turn the PC into a closed platform when it comes to gaming. But their stroke of genius was keeping the 'awesome' attached to the 'evil', so no gamer could ever really dislike them!
Ah, the cantankerous bitching old loser who never managed to succeed in anything, including moving out of his mum and dad's basement, and his suck-puppet brigade. Why don't you just shove those accounts up your ass and follow your own advice, you piece of failure?
Another reason why this is a good news for ReactOS.
As far as I understand, Win8 has no less freedom for apps/games than Android. You either ship your standalone pack (installer/.apk), or use Market/GPlay (and thereby accept a list of rules). I rarely see articles like this that state that censorship/certification issues are only affecting WinRT (and even in that case, everything is parallel to iOS - so what's new, really?). Aside from phones/tablets, why do developers carve so hard for the built-in AppStore? There is Steam, and possible future solutions, like - who knows - maybe a Cydia-like free store platform for Win8.
Microsoft now have two platforms, i386 that is free to tinker with and ARM that is tightly controlled, just like iOS is. What's the problem? It makes perfect sense given the limitations of mobile hardware when compared to dektop hardware. You can't reasonably expect to run the Symantec Security suite on WinRT, do you? Get used to it or choose i386 and be happy.
iOS and OSX look very different and run on different devices, whereas, Windows RT and Windows x86 look exactly the same and will run on identical hardware.
Since when is ARM and x86 "identical hardware"? Since, you know, WinRT is only for ARM tablets.
Got an email from microsoft, wanting to help "certify" minecraft for win 8. I told them to stop trying to ruin the pc as an open platform.
It is easy to be a "fighter" where little is on the line. I find it rather unlikely Windows 8 tablets will succeed so there's no harm in him snubbing them. That aside, if they do, he can always just release Minecraft for them. It isn't like MS is going to ban him, they don't give a shit.
I also think it is just generally jumping on the "Hate MS" cause of the day. Hating on MS for the Windows Store is real popular right now with geek types. So he's just jumping on that, probably without doing much research on it.
I do find it funny all the hate on it since it really is no different than many other stores out there. I'd be worried about it (and hating on it) if it were the only way to get programs in Windows 8 but given that they still not only install as normal, but the Windows Store isn't even used for non-metro programs (which would be like every Windows program out there right now) I just don't care. I can't imagine I'll ever buy anything from it, it just won't affect how I do things.
So my guess is it is party greed (as another poster noted Minecraft is on the 360 which is totally locked down too) and partly just joining the hate train.
Blanket Fail statememt. I have a desktop but am looking at getting a tablet to replace a notebook due to changes in usage. Simply put, I'm spending more and more time in god damn waiting rooms w/o tables or desks and the laptop just isn't as useful anymore while a tablet offers enough functionality to be useable while being smaller. In fact, based on the damn changes in usage, I may even be able to use the tablet to replace most of my desktop functionality while converting it to a home server. It's still useful but...
Mod me up/Mod me down: I wont frown as I've no crown
If he isn't just trolling about Windows, and instead does want to make a point about the "value of being able to install your own software", why is there an official Minecraft client for iOS?
That did occur to me - but bear in mind that TFA consists of two tweets from Notch followed by an awful lot of extrapolation by HotHardware.com. His tweets don't mention ARM at all, just not wanting Microsoft to 'ruin the PC as an open platform'.
I think the problem occures if you see devices like tablets, phones and consoles as 'media consumption' appliances rather than general purpose computers. It's no big deal if they are closed systems (consoles have been that way for years).
The forthcoming ARM-based Windows machines may well be marketed as general purpose laptops and SFF computers.
In a survey of 100 programmers, 111111 thought that duck-typing was a good idea.
Last time I installed minecraft, I went to minecraft.net and installed it. I'm just going to continue doing so? Where's the news? Some random guy doesn't want to use a new feature, aaaaaand?
Not to mention that he quite happily did minecraft pocket edition for the ipad, an ARM ecosystem that is just as restrictive as the Microsoft app store on windows RT.
No hypocrisy there, no siree.
That's because of money. No such thing as hypocrisy as long as money is involved!
Its cheap grandstanding and nothing more. MC will work fine on x86 Win8 without certification, and lets be honest, RT is probably going to bomb badly.
Quite the example of an empty gesture.
Cool story. Cooler editing.
The real problem with Windows 8 is that it locks ARM users into a second class experience. If you buy an x86 tablet, you can download programs from SourceForge, GitHub, or any file mirror. If you're an ARM user, you can download programs from the Microsoft store and that's it.
If that's the real problem with windows 8 then it's really not a problem at all, is it? Competing operating systems on mobile (android, ios) are also locked down to a single source out of the box unless you make changes to the OS.
There are a LOT of problems with win8, but this isn't a biggie.
I've recently upgraded to mountain lion, and was surprised how much OSX is starting to look like iOS. From the launcher, to mouse wheel scroll direction, scrollbars, mail or the fact that by default you are not allowed to install programs that don't come from the app store (I know, you can change much of this, I've spent a day customizing myself).
But all that aside, MS wants Windows on ARM.It's not possible to run executables compiled for x86 or x64 on ARM. So there has to be a separation, with Apple you also have the mac and ios app stores.
WinRT and Win8 will probably satisfy needs of different user groups. But the fact that they look and work the same might be a benefit. And what could have MS done to make a better distinction? Come up with a whole new name? Like Windows 8 vs Doors 8?
The summary also incorrectly states that your app has to be Metro in order to be listed in the store. This is just BS and wrong. Now, you have to be Metro in order to be purchased from the store. You can LIST Win32 apps just fine - but you can't sell them directly in the store. You basically get a link from the store back to your own site. But you can still be listed.
...and if you're Joe Q. Public who doesn't know what that means when they're looking at the price tag at Best Buy?
YOU know, and I know, but there's a good chance that even otherwise well-informed nerds won't know or recall when they're shopping around. It happens.
Minecraft requires Java. So bonus, this silliness keeps Win8 more security ...
The XBox version does not support any of the existing mods that people use. It would be a vastly inferior game at that point and everyone would hate Notch for dumping Java.
Of course, astute Minecraft fans would know that the game already has been ported to "something else" multiple times in order to make the Xbox 360 and iOS releases. So presumably, if Notch didn't want to be an ass, he could just make the Xbox 360 version the "official" version and port that back to Windows and - presto, he'd have a Windows 8 game store capable version, right there.
4J Studios developed the Xbox port, not Mojang. I would assume, like for many ports, that 4J Studios retains control over their code they've written. It is even possible that Mojang does not have access to it.
No, he won't certify it for the metro store, big deal. It's coded in java(horribly), so it'll run just fine on anything that has a JVM, which win 8 does. So just install like normal?
[quote]The bifurcated permission structure is the problem, and it makes WinRT tablets categorically impossible to recommend for anyone who values the ability to install whatever software they please.[/quote] So Apple is allowed to block any manual installation, but MS isn't? Windows 8 = MacOSX, WindowsRT = iOS..
Doesn't mean I agree with being locked down, but I also hate that part of Apple.. Also let's not forget, also on Windows 8 metrostyle applications can only be installed through the windows store..
So Rafael Rivera made a blog post about this, claiming that Notch might have misunderstood why Microsoft contacted him. According to him all they asked Notch to do was to certify Minecraft so that it could be listed in the Windows 8 Store. Listed as in only displaying a link to www.minecraft.net. Nothing more, no app hosted by Microsoft or anything. Not converting Minecraft to an Metroapp. Just a link. I guess we don't know until Notch clears this up, but if it is true then this news article is wrong and most comments are wrong as well. http://www.withinwindows.com/2012/09/28/notch-doesnt-hate-windows-8-hes-just-confused/
Seriously, whether the desktop was available or not on Win RT ARM tablets, the experience would always be inferior. Saying that ARM users are getting a second rate experience is stupid. Have them install something that runs badly on their hardware, that's a second rate experience.
What the Metro and MS store is allow developers to write across both architectures with ease. While a Metro app may appear that taxes an ARM tablet, that same app isn't going to break a sweat on a multicore x86 box.
You may as well say iPhone users get a second rate experience because the iPad screen is bigger...
That said though, MS wording as to what Windows 8 certification actually is seems confused. It should really be Certified for Metro, and they should do more to differentiate between cosmetically identical, but technically different products in Windows 8 and Windows RT devices.
Infiniminer was never commercial; he just didn't release the source code initially until someone decompiled it and people started forking it. Jesus if you're going to stick your nose into discussions with such a negative attitude, you could at least get your facts straight, least you look like a flippant Minecraft fanboy.
See above: 30 day return policy.
Besides, even WinRT will have a browser, email, and angry birds. That right there satisfies 99% of users (I actually just made that number up, but it's probably pretty accurate).
Infiniminer was available for $5.99 shortly before the source leak.
But troll all you want.
He doesn't seem to have an issue with the walled garden on iOS but he suddenly takes an intentionally public stand against Windows 8? Is it hitting a bit too close to home this time, Notch?
Notch is always looking to be the center of attention. It works well for him, but through the years I've always thought him to be a bit of a dick, really. I don't hate the man, I just think the way he does things and reacts to things is off.
Windows 8 runs all x86/x64 apps just fine. No really, I've tested it (I do Windows support at work). Programs I have tried that run fine include, but are not limited to, Firefox, Chrome, Outlook, Sonar, Vegas, HFSS, Matlab, Textpad, Putty, and Visual Studio. To install them I use the tried and true method of "run the installer". Works just like it did in the past.
Yes, the new Metro crap requires the use of the Windows Store, but then the new Metro crap is just that. It is new stuff that until now did not exist. It is the ability to get tablet crap on your desktop, if you really want. It does not stop you from using regular programs.
Really, all the FUD surrounding this is getting silly. People are trying to pretend like Windows 8 doesn't run Windows software as normal. Ya, it does. It also has this stupid tablet shit. Whatever. However getting all up in arms about the tablet stuff being locked to their store is silly unless you are also going to get up on the iOS store.
It would be a vastly inferior game at that point and everyone would hate Notch for dumping Java.
No one ever gets hated for dumping Java.
Many of the problems this game has are directly related to java bloat and limitations, something the developer even admits.
If you're a die hard java enthusiast, ask yourself why so few games are written in the language, and especially open world games.
It is just anti-MS FUD, which is something Slashdot likes a lot.
Windows 8 isn't a great desktop OS because it tries to force a tablet interface on you to replace the start menu (and the UI is ugly compared to 7), but ultimately it doesn't matter. You can replace that if you like (Start8 is my recommendation) and it still runs all Windows x86/x64 software just like past versions of Windows. It just also has the ability to run new Metro aka MS tablet, software which the previous Windows versions didn't. That might be a useful addition except there isn't any at this point and I don't see the market going anywhere.
So it is a stupid feature IMO, but it doesn't screw up your use in any way. Windows works as it always has with standard programs. You can run any code you like, from any source you like, make any changes to the system you like, etc.
Their tablet version, WinRT, will only run Metro programs, in part because the tablets can be ARM and standard Windows code won't run on that. So there, you are locked in same as with iOS, unless you do some kind of jailbreak which I imagine someone will develop if the market gets large enough for anyone to give a shit. However on the desktop, you can run standard Windows software as always.
You do realize the Surface and Surface Pro are rather similar from the outside? Plus, I have to say the name doesn't make me think "those are two entirely different products running on two entirely different platforms" like, say, iPad and MacBook do.
Windows 7 is going to be the new Windows XP, it's gonna be on my systems for years after 8 is released.
I swear to god the only news I hear about these pricks is when they're whining and crying about something. John Carmack or Richard Garriot were never little bitches like today's game developers. Indie devs have such an inflated ego and sense of entitlement if everything doesn't go their way they start crying. Give me a fucking break.
so win8 certification is also just a money making scheme.
Oh sweet, so yet another game could be ruined by becoming a console to PC port?
The Windows Store does not have a monopoly on tablets because iPad and Android tablets are not available. The Windows Store does not have a monopoly on desktop because non-Metro apps are available.
Most of the problems related to Java are due to bad programming and are actually resolved by mods (e.g. Optifine) but could be fixed even better with a rewrite. I'm sorry but you just don't have a clue.
Microsoft doesn't make computers
Xbox and Xbox 360 are computers, except explicitly locked down so as not to be general-purpose.
Also, nobody in their right mind trusts Microsoft.
How are Sony and Nintendo more trustable?
Both iOS and XBox are locked down from their inception.
As is Windows RT. Is the main problem with Windows RT the fact that it's called Windows, unlike the Xbox operating system which isn't called Windows XB?
Hey, I thought Apple held the patent on locking users into an app store?
That patent belonged to Atari (signature verification in the NTSC Atari 7800), and it expired before the iPhone 1 was first sold.
Valve does not prevent a developer from distributing games through any other mean, and there is no lack of concurrence in the Digital Game Delivery market. Self-publication is very cheap, and platforms like Steam are intended for developers that are ready to invest money to respect Valve's conditions, in exchange for an improved revenue through a better exposition to gamers that are used to buy their games.
This is quite different from the current Microsoft and Apple tactics of using their power as an OS provider to extract a "gatekeeper tax" on all programs sold for their platform.
I'm spending more and more time in god damn waiting rooms w/o tables or desks
But do these waiting rooms have public Wi-Fi so that you can actually do something on a tablet, or is it locked and the key available to employees only? I have more than enough on my 10" laptop to survive a wait of at least a couple hours with no Internet.
In fact, based on the damn changes in usage, I may even be able to use the tablet to replace most of my desktop functionality while converting it to a home server.
So would you get onto the home server whenever you need to do a lot of typing or play games in genres not suited for touch input?
Go see a shrink, ASAP. Please.
It's not possible to run executables compiled for x86 or x64 on ARM.
Impossible? I disagree. DOSBox is ported.
And what could have MS done to make a better distinction? Come up with a whole new name? Like Windows 8 vs Doors 8?
Based on how I understand other comments to this story, a different name is exactly what they want.
You can switch steam to offline mode and play all your offline games without contacting steam ever again if thats how you really want it.
https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=3160-AGCB-2555
"Offline Mode allows you to play games through Steam without reconnecting to the Steam Network every time you wish to play - this is particularly useful if you do not plan on playing over the internet and would prefer not to download new updates for your single-player games."
Minecraft still works great on Win8, as with every other games. The Metro store is a fail but Notch just go over the edge with this.
Two questions for you:
First, what did Infiniminer clone? As far as I can tell, it's a 3D version of Motherload, and Motherload is heavily inspired by Boulder Dash.
Second, should Linus Torvalds and the Free Software Foundation be looked down on for cloning UNIX?
How can a PC game support multiple players without either A. being turn-based, B. requiring a separate license for each household member like Minecraft does, or C. feeling like "a console to PC port"?
Infiniminer?? You haven't heard of Dwarf Fortress??
So it would be alright in your book, if developing for the world's largest personal computing ecosystem eventually became as restricted as on a gaming console?
Windows RT is not exactly "the world's largest personal computing ecosystem", and Windows for x86 still runs OpenGL.
I see two possibliities:
MS is sufficiently deluded that they genuinely think doubling down on Silverlight based technology while forcing tighter lockin to MS store and services is going to work and lead to rapid obsolecence of their existing software ecosystem without anything of significance lost. This seems to fly against all evidence and reason, but I wouldn't put it past them.
The other possibility is that WindowsRT isn't *that* serious an endeavor. Enough invested to make it *real* and maybe even take off in the unlikely scenario described above. Not enough to actually enable the large third-party application base that remains MS' sole meaningful advantage nowadays. The hope may be to scare AMD and Intel to worry more and work harder to provide compelling x86 compatible solutions amenable to the same physical form factors that are being popularized in iOS and Android devices. The strongest evidence of this that I can see is how both AMD and Intel have pretty much explicitly come out and said their next big thing in the mobile space is very much designed exclusively for Windows usage. Linux (notably Android) have been de-emphasized by both Intel and AMD for those chips as they go out of their way to endorse Windows 8. This could either be due to pressure/threats from MS but it also might be explained by Intel's relative failure to attract real partnerships in the Android space despite an earnest effort to do so, which would drive both AMD and Intel to realize that they really need microsoft to retain competitive advantage over non-x86 architectures.
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
Sure, you can emulate stuff. But what performance will you get?
An emulator that has been properly integrated into the operating system uses a technique called "high-level emulation", in which syscalls run as native code. This was true of the 68LC040 emulator in Mac OS 7.5 through 9, it was true of an early Nintendo 64 (MIPS R4k) emulator called UltraHLE, and it was true of the PowerPC emulator in Mac OS X Leopard and Snow Leopard. So for applications that spend most of their time in WaitForEvent() or other syscalls, such as anything that isn't a recent 3D game, performance will likely be acceptable.
and Windows 8 x86 too, you can not install "Metro" applications
So what? You can't install "Metro" applications on Windows 7 either. What is being lost?
The biggest advantage for Windows was becoming it biggest problem, no way to find out which application is safe and which is not. On OS front they made considerable progress after XP SP6, but the weak area was still applications the end user will download and screw up the machine. All blames came to OS. Now they have learnt, thanks to Apple, that a controlled experience is better especially for tablets and phones with limited resources. iOS, Android all started the same way and its still beneficial to non-technical user community. Everybody blamed the OS when performance was bad, not to all those gazillion applications consuming CPU, network, IO cycles. So restricting this for ARM based computers is the right way, on the traditional x86 you can still code and all applications work the same way.
Xbox 360 developers have direct access to hardware.
Developers accepted through the more selective process do, but XNA developers don't. Everything in a game that uses XNA must be written in a language that compiles to CIL, and the only hardware access is through the XNA API, which resembles a managed version of DirectX.
Given the moves towards walled gardens by both MS and Apple, I am making my own moves towards open or more open platforms. Debian laptop. XBMC set-top box with linux. Android phone. Possibly a linux tablet. And I am encouraging the same from those around me. Open computing is too important to lose.
This and no other is the root from which a tyrant springs; when first he appears as a protector - Plato (423 to 327 BC)
There's so much whining about the ARM version of Windows 8. Android and iOS already lock the user down to one app store. Microsoft is doing the exact same thing. If you want to install non-app store software, you'll just have to "root" your device (or rather, the equivalent of bypassing such normal operation, just in this case for such a non-Unix-based OS), which you know as well as I do will be possible in no time. And are we really complaining about the restrictions on getting an app published by Microsoft after all of the debacles we've seen with Apple's service thus far?
Seriously, all of this is a non issue. Technically it will probably end up actually benefiting Windows desktop users, because you'll finally have a cross-platform application format. It won't be great for everything, of course, but for popular mobile games and certain apps it'll be handy.
Blanket Fail statememt. I have a desktop but am looking at getting a tablet to replace a notebook due to changes in usage. Simply put, I'm spending more and more time in god damn waiting rooms w/o tables or desks and the laptop just isn't as useful anymore while a tablet offers enough functionality to be useable while being smaller. In fact, based on the damn changes in usage, I may even be able to use the tablet to replace most of my desktop functionality while converting it to a home server. It's still useful but...
That's the direction I'm going here. Seriously overpowered workstation to server with virtual machines (coin-flip which server OS/hyper-visor combo) and my Nexus 7 as my goes-everywhere machine. Now it becomes a question of tapping into all the data-streams coming into this place ;-)
"[I]t is a wise man who admits the limits of his knowledge or skill, and that pretending either causes harm." --Terry Go
So what's the point you are trying to make? He has never hid the inspiration behind the game. I don't play minecraft much anymore but my kids do. I was around back when there were a thousand sales, not millions. He was the sole developer behind the game "Minecraft" for a long time and talked openly about where he got his ideas from. We all know Infiniminer existed. Even if you don't know what it is, if you followed the Minecraft development you would have heard about it from Notch and various others many times. Your point, if you are trying to make one, is puzzling.
current ... all programs
Why do you lie? Neither Apple nor Microsoft do this if we are talking the Windows and OS X side. Gatekeeper is an option on OS X Mountain Lion, and does not exist on Windows, where any app stores are optional.
If someone else than the original author decompiles a commercial program and release the source, then it is not open source, it is a copyright violation. Forcing open other people's software for some religious RMS-worshipping reason is fanaticism.
You do know that tablets can have 3G (4G) [or] a mobile hot-spot
I'm aware that they can, but how many actually do? Please see my reply to toriver.
How about tethering?
To switch from my current phone plan to one allowing tethering would cost an additional $45 per month: $30/mo to switch from a flip phone on a $5/mo payLo plan to an Android phone on a $35/mo Beyond Talk plan, plus $15/mo for the tethering rider. (source)
I can't speak for anyone else since cervical bone-spurs are doing a number on my typing
If you have a typing impairment, and you have found the Nexus 7's speech recognition to work well for dictation, then I guess the Nexus 7 is the right choice for you. I too have a Nexus 7; I ought to try dictation on mine to see if it can "wreck a nice beach" as well as you claim it does, especially with someone else in the household playing the TV or radio at such a volume to be heard in another room. We'll have to wait and see whether dictation on the Surface is any good.
by default you are not allowed to install programs that don't come from the app store
This is completely false.
By default, programs that are downloaded from the Internet that haven't been signed won't run unless you right click the icon and override the protection.
All I want is a secure system where it's easy to do anything I want. Is that too much to ask ~~ Randall Munroe
You know what looks even better when it's out?
The Transformer Book. Core i5, 1920x1200, dock with keyboard (with all the same ports), and it runs Windows 8. On x86, so you have the Windows Store for touch apps, and then you have the full-fledged OS that's free to install whatever the hell you want on it.
Oh, and you can kill Secure Boot and dual-boot Linux. Or just replace Windows with Linux if you really want to.
I'm actually surprised that no-one has got a point yet and made an Android convertible device that'd run Android and Linux proper side by side (with chroot etc), out of the box, "it just works" style. All it takes is getting a decent X server implementation for Android, and there's a guy who's already working on it - just hire him and give him money.
What does it give you? Well, the ability to run LibreOffice, for one. And, generally, the secondary UI that's more useful for getting things done in laptop mode.
It's exactly what Win8 offers (especially on x86, where you can run arbitrary apps in desktop mode and not just Office). It's a shame that Linux/Android could do the same exact thing for over a year now (I've had Ubuntu running in chroot on my Transformer since last year), but it was relegated to hacks and never properly supported by any company. Especially given that Asus itself is now releasing Transformer-style Win8 convertibles (Transformer Book, VivoTab etc).
Steam does so much more than host content and provide a billing system. If that's all you think it's doing then you're clearly ignorant.
If you increase your distribution 10 fold, 30% is easy money.
by default you are not allowed to install programs that don't come from the app store
This is completely false.
By default, programs that are downloaded from the Internet that haven't been signed won't run unless you right click the icon and override the protection.
...and if they have been signed by an identified developer, you don't even have to do that, you can just run them (or, if they have an installer package, start the installer with the package).
(And you can download them with something that doesn't set the quarantine extended attribute, or build them yourself if you have source, and run them just fine, but that's a bit more geeky.)
I'd say he probably just doesn't want to actually do the work required to get it certified. The guy hates working, especially now that he's a multimillionaire and should be on easy street.
And amazing profits during summer and winter sales.
A tablet is great as a consumer device, horrible as a creator device.
And what have you done lately, MogNuts?
If he's got a copy on the Apple app store for iDevices, he's just being hypocritical here.
Sure the Windows store is closed, but you can run unsigned apps more easily on Windows 8 than on the latest Mac OS. The Windows store itself is no more closed than Steam or iOS, and MUCH more open than XBLA ( not indie games ). And there's no lock down forcing you to use Windows Store apps, so Steam and all of it's games seem to work just fine. I was playing Limbo recently on my work Windows 8 machine, and a colleague of mine has been consistently playing Guild Wars, StarCraft 2 and Just Cause. Maybe they won't work on ARM, but then do many desktop apps work on ARM devices? Because i'm developing for it, I've been running Windows 8 at work since first developer preview, and have just installed RTM on my home laptop. I just don't understand all the hate it's getting, since i feel it's a step up from Windows 7. I still hit the Windows button and type the name of an app that I want, a function that works a lot better on Windows 8 than in Windows 7's slow-to-search start menu. I can even add external ( non-installed ) apps like Eclipse to the new Start page directly from Explorer without creating stupid shortcuts in some hidden start menu folder. And all the fud about MS giving up on desktop is nonsense. There have been subtle, but good improvements to the desktop experience, ranging from improved copy dialogs ( which can finally pause and stack - something I loved in KDE ) to a decent ribbon interface for Explorer windows. My only gripe is the right side settings charm on a multi-monitor setup. To be honest, i think the touch experience is not nearly as good as the desktop experience. I think there's a lot of people opening their mouths without having tested Windows 8 for prolonged periods.
You of course read the whole sentence, and got to the part where I said you can change this behavior, right?
Did you read your post, where you claimed you couldn't run anything that didn't come from the app store? Just in case you forgot:
by default you are not allowed to install programs that don't come from the app store
You don't need to change any behaviour to run/install signed apps that DON'T come from the app store. If you download something from the app store, it is signed. The reverse is not necessarily true. This is what the previous poster was trying to point out.
When confronted with one problem, some think "I'll use recursion". Now they are confronted with one problem.
it was commercial, but Zachtronics dumped it one month after release, so short you missed it
, Infiniminer was written in C# .NET, for NOT running on open source OS
I said install. I didn't say run. I said you can change it. Read it.
Actually, from steam you also get marketing. And it's only 30% of what you sell on there, not all venues, so it opens up a new market to you I'd say that's worth it. I'm willing to bet there are companies out there spending at least 30% on marketing. And it's pretty great marketing if that's your target audience. Just saying, I wouldn't count that as "little value beyond a billing system and content hosting".
On Steam you'd know if there were a Sequel or DLC coming out for a game that popular. And it's not 30% of all their sales, just sales made on steam, which still gets the word out to your buddies that may not have used steam to buy the game in the first place.
I also said install. I read what you said. You're wrong (or lying, though I don't see what you'd have to gain by it).
When confronted with one problem, some think "I'll use recursion". Now they are confronted with one problem.
"""Did you read your post, where you claimed you couldn't run anything that didn't come from the app store?"""
But you are somewhat right, as I didn't say you can install programs that are signed with an apple certificate.
So my complete statement should've been that you cannot install any program that's not downloaded from the app store or not signed by an apple certificate unless you change the security settings.
But apple is counting on most users not being able to figure that out, so they just go and buy from the app store, so they profit 30%. And they are probably right, as I had to help a mac user today who deleted her iphoto, couldn't reinstall it, nor did she know that you can right click (secondary click) on a macbook pro. You think she could've figured out how to change the security settings?
One way or another, what apple is doing is plain evil and they are chipping away at users' freedom in order to make more $$$.
and not a very funny one either!
Why do YOU lie ? On iOS, Apple is already the gatekeeper and you can't avoid it.
And from their current moves, it clearly looks like both Apple and Microsoft would do it on their desktop environments if they could get away with it. They cannot right now, and the warnings from Notch, Gabe Newell, etc. are clearly there to raise awareness on this issue, and try to foil the OS makers' strategy.