Windows 8 PCs Still Throttled By Crapware

jfruh writes "Windows 8's Metro UI presents a clean and spiffy new interface for Microsoft's latest OS. But one of the operating system's oldest and most hated problems — crapware — still lurks below the surface. For instance, the Acer Aspire 7600U is an all-in-one that, at $1,900, is hardly a bargain-basement PC. And yet as shipped it includes over 50 pieces of OEM and third-party software pre-installed, much of which simply offer trials for paid services."

Comments

Nothing new here

[Fellon]

Fast machine!? Who needs that? We can make more money!

Re:Nothing new here

[Jeremiah Cornelius]

This is the OEM business model. Razor-thin manufacturing hardware margins mean that there's a HUGE department that does nothing but inbound deals for software product placement - this is how they get profitability. Don't expect much change. Even with a premium PC line, they won't turn down these dollars thrust upon them from Symantec, and the online-game-of-the-week. Be sure, all of this is instrumented with web-bugs and behavior-tracking galore.

Using a Windows machine will always be like this: Trapped face-up, under the urinal in Steve Ballmer's personal piss-dungeon.

Re:Nothing new here

[Gr8Apes]

This is the OEM business model. ... Even with a premium PC line, they won't turn down these dollars thrust upon them from Symantec, and the online-game-of-the-week.

This is a premium PC? Well, premium price anyways, when compared to an Apple iMac I see a higher res screen and better graphics for less. Of course, it'll also come sans all the fingerprints on the screen, since it's not a touch screen. I think that alone is worth several hundred $ in Apple's favor, or however much you value your finger should you ever try to touch my monitor. I kid, I kid... not.

Re:Nothing new here

[Runaway1956]

The question is - why are people buying these computers? Newegg, TigerDirect, and others sell components, online, and cheap. In an afternoon, a guy can build an equivalent computer from components, install his favorite OS, and be ready to start installing all his required software in the morning.

Why pay 100 to 1000% extra, for a compromised system?

So, maybe some slashdotters really don't understand how to turn a screwdriver. I'm sure there's kid in the neighborhood who does. Maybe your own son, daughter, niece, nephew? Give the kid fifty bucks to assemble your machine, you're still money ahead.

Re:Nothing new here

[poetmatt]

the margins aren't even remotely razor thin. you're talking about buying at retail in the first place. The ads are just a double dip on the profits.

Re:Nothing new here

[Anonymous Coward]

Huh? Building your own costs more. OEMs get huge volume discounts on hardware and software.

Re:Nothing new here

[AaronLS]

I'm not sure what this has to do with Windows. There is nothing about Linux that prevents OEM's from loading software of their choosing.

Re:Nothing new here

[Anonymous Coward]

>

Using a Windows machine will always be like this: Trapped face-up, under the urinal in Steve Ballmer's personal piss-dungeon.

Bullshit. Just stop buying PCs and make them yourself. It's faster than fucking around with sales people and its A LOT cheaper. Also, you won't get crapware unless you put it on yourself.

Re:Nothing new here

[Sir_Sri]

And they mark up for it.

Building your own, if you know what you're doing and know what you want is usually cheaper. But it does require work on your part, and while most of building a computer is pretty trivial some stuff (like correctly wiring a case to a mobo, or properly applying contact paste for a cooling fan) can really hold people back. Also, time and space.

Re:Nothing new here

[PCM2]

The question is - why are people buying these computers? Newegg, TigerDirect, and others sell components, online, and cheap. In an afternoon, a guy can build an equivalent computer from components, install his favorite OS, and be ready to start installing all his required software in the morning.

Show me someone who can build a 1.37-inch-thick 27" touchscreen all-in-one PC "in an afternoon" and I'll show you someone who works for Acer.

With all the new system form factors coming out, I highly doubt you're going to see many classic, slapped-together tower PCs in people's homes in the near future.

Re:Nothing new here

[Sir_Sri]

If they started selling any serious number of linux machines they almost certainly would. Money is money.

Re:Nothing new here

[lister king of smeg]

less people write crippled trialware for linux and linux users would probably format their new system and install their distro of choice after their first boot to see if the computer runs

Re:Nothing new here

[JimCanuck]

People who are already that technically competent already uninstall and purge all the crapware out of a Windows Box in less then half the time it takes you to install your Distro.

Re:Nothing new here

[Darinbob]

Actually I got a new Dell (windows 7 and no UEFI) and it didn't come with that much crap. McAfee 15 month trial, some disk-in-the-cloud for a year, and Dell utilities. I don't think I've seen a desktop prepopulated with lots of crapware and url links for over a decade.

Re:Nothing new here

[Anonymous Coward]

This is the OEM business model.

Repeat after me:

"I may own the hardware, but I do not own the computer".

Get used to saying it. If you're using Windows, it is not your computer. Your music is not your music. Your books are not your books. Your movies are not your movies.

You can use these things for some arbitrary time, provided you accept some arbitrary conditions (like crapware), but at any stage, the real owners may deny you further use of their products, or charge you additional fees to keep using them. Just accept that, pay your bills, keep your mouth shut and move on with your life.

It's not like you have any real choice, is it?

Re:Nothing new here

[ozmanjusri]

Linux has package management. That makes it simple to remove crapware, and therefore less profitable to add it.

Re:Nothing new here

[Runaway1956]

I guess you've answered my question. If you want the latest consumer goody, and appearance is more important than performance or security, then you're stuck with whatever the vendors are offering.

If you need a secure, reliable, stable system, and you don't care very much that it looks obsolete, then you can knock together a damned good tower at a fraction of the cost that you're going to pay for the vendor's comparable version.

Re:Nothing new here

[PNutts]

And they mark up for it.

Building your own, if you know what you're doing and know what you want is usually cheaper. But it does require work on your part, and while most of building a computer is pretty trivial some stuff (like correctly wiring a case to a mobo, or properly applying contact paste for a cooling fan) can really hold people back. Also, time and space.

Not really. It's hard to find as cheap parts that they use in the pre-built stuff. A quick look at NewEgg shows a Windows 7 mini-tower, AMD dual core x64, 4GB RAM, 320GB HD, AMD Radeon HD, integrated sound card, gigabit Ethernet, and 150W power supply for $229. Even if not a Cyber Monday price, picking the cheapest of everything quickly surpasses a pre-built PC these days. And for me it's difficult to pick the cheapest of every component.

Re:Nothing new here

[OhPlz]

I ordered one recently too, they now have a "none" selection for the McAfee. So you can buy it, get the trial, or not have it at all. There was very little else installed outside of the OS and the utilities included with the hardware (usable Bluray software, nvidia stuff, etc).

Re:Nothing new here

[sarysa]

Huh? Building your own costs more. OEMs get huge volume discounts on hardware and software.

For a dplicate machine, yes but onl in the lower end. (Sry typos slow phone) For what you actually want, absolutely not.

Re:Nothing new here

[lister king of smeg]

yes but the linux users have a useful system that does what they want when they are done, the windows users are still stuck with a drm infected crippled unsecure operating system afterward.

Re:Nothing new here

[Zero__Kelvin]

How does that fix the problem? Removing all the OEM crapware doesn't somehow automagically make Windows itsef not crapware.

Re:Nothing new here

[Billly Gates]

Which is why many of us would rather build our systems and pay the OEM licence fee ... or go to the Microsoft Store for the less inept users. This is a serious problem and yes many would be willing to pay $10 for that better experience. Or get a Android tablet without that problem.

Re:Nothing new here

[Billly Gates]

I wanted to build my last system bad. I could not justify with my wife. I got an Asus anyway at BestBuy but I reformatted the disk with an OEm pirated build but put the key in that way for a fresh install.

Re:Nothing new here

[jedidiah]

The kicker is the fact that any parts you throw together in some frankenbox are bound to be superior to what an OEM will try to sell you. This is partially due to you actually knowing what's in the box and the fact that franken-parts are geared towards people who know what they are doing.

"huge volume discounts" are mostly on the software YOU DON'T WANT.

As far as the rest goes: you're probably better off with a clean copy anyways ( system builder license).

Sometimes you get what you pay for and the cost of an OEM copy of Windows is just the cost of having a PC that's not full of crapulence.

Re:Nothing new here

[jedidiah]

That AIO is going to be an oversized paperweight the moment one of it's components breaks or becomes painfully obsolete. Depending on your hardware vendor, your machine may be painfully obsolete as soon as you take it home.

Re:Nothing new here

[davydagger]

most people are NOT DIY'ers

to build your own, you need to keep tabs on computer hardware, install your own OS, and keep track of warantee on a dozen or so parts.

Then you have to fix it when it breaks.

Fine for me. I know far far far more, than anyone who works at level 1 help desk would ever learn in his life, this isn't everyone. Most people WANT that help desk.(part of the cost).

You also get one point of contact for warrantee. If ANYTHING breaks, they fix it. How the fuck would a n00b know a CPU/motherboard problem from a HD problem?

Then there is OS installs. Most people want to plug it in, and have it work. A prior generation preffered laptops to desktops because they couldn't figure out which holes to plug things in. Expect them to navigate a windows installer?

Fuck no. After making the mistake of building PCs for friends and family, I tell anyone who's not tech savy to just buy a computer that comes assembled, with warrantee, and tech support.(those guys don't get paid enough for doing that, an extra $200 on the tag to answer stupid n00b questions for two years), If anyone wants me to build them a PC, today its $50 on top of parts for assemble and test, and another $200, for 2 years of being able to call me on the phone and answer your stupid n00b questions.

when you buy a PC in the store, your not paying for the parts, your paying for the service.

Re:Nothing new here

[jedidiah]

You also have to buy into the idea that Windows can be 'cleaned'. It's kind of like believing that you can trust your system after a virus infection. It just needs to be wiped and rebuilt regardless.

THAT is not going to be faster than doing Linux from scratch.

The idea that you can "clean windows" is just the kind of wishful thinking that causes Internet crippling malware outbreaks.

Re:Nothing new here

[interval1066]

Buit all my pcs, for years. Then I got my first laptop. Then they came out with ultras. That works for me, I haven't built a pc in years. I don't mind paying more for it. Except the damn microsoft tax, I hate paying that, especially being a Linux user. Bastards.

Re:Nothing new here

[Anonymous Coward]

This is the OEM business model. Razor-thin manufacturing hardware margins mean that there's a HUGE department that does nothing but inbound deals for software product placement - this is how they get profitability. Don't expect much change. Even with a premium PC line, they won't turn down these dollars thrust upon them from Symantec, and the online-game-of-the-week. Be sure, all of this is instrumented with web-bugs and behavior-tracking galore.

Using a Windows machine will always be like this: Trapped face-up, under the urinal in Steve Ballmer's personal piss-dungeon.

This, this, this. This is also the main reason why OEMs are reluctant to sell Linux PCs or advertise the ones they do offer--despite years of Microsoft's weakening stranglehold and Microsoft's plans to now compete directly with the OEMs. Linux may be free, but until they can load a Linux box up with just as much crapware as they put on a Windows box, the Windows box comes out cheaper for the OEM.

Re:Nothing new here

[jibjibjib]

If you want to use Windows you're often stuck with a choice between using the OEM crapware installation or paying for a new retail copy of Windows. Whereas on Linux a clean reinstall is generally free.

Re:Nothing new here

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you sure you aren't talking about Macs?

Re:Nothing new here

[lgw]

You will not come out ahead on a "cheapest of everything" PC doing it yourself - and it won't work when you put it together. You can very well come out ahead building a "workstation" - in the $1k-2k range, you generally get more for your budget, and especially better reliability, by picking top-quality parts yourself (and avoiding the very fastest anything).

You'll never built a cheaper Walmart PC than Walmart - but then, who would want such a thing?

Re:Nothing new here

[jibjibjib]

Windows does not give media companies a universal remote backdoor to delete your data. It doesn't make sense to blame Windows for the fact that you decided to buy DRM'ed movies/music/books.

Re:Nothing new here

[lgw]

I know this is "computing myths of the 90s" month on /., but that's particularly old school.

Re:Nothing new here

[lgw]

"Cleaning" Windows is just a fresh Windows install, which is prettty quick these days if you actually have drivers (and if you don't even have Windows drivers for some crapbox, linux drivers seem far fatched).

At least in my experience, the install-and-patch cycle for Win7 was significantly faster and less hands-on than for Ubuntu, which just seemed to want to keep patching and patching. But I was doing both naively through their GUIs, with no special tricks to make anything faster.

Re:Nothing new here

[lgw]

Windows also has package management - has for many years. Crapware doesn't play by the rules.

Re:Nothing new here

[loufoque]

Building your own only works for desktops.
Non-geeks exclusively buy laptops.

Re:Nothing new here

[PCM2]

That AIO is going to be an oversized paperweight the moment one of it's components breaks or becomes painfully obsolete. Depending on your hardware vendor, your machine may be painfully obsolete as soon as you take it home.

So like a laptop, then? I think vendors have sold a few of those by now.

Re:Nothing new here

[kiwimate]

Building your own, if you know what you're doing and know what you want is usually cheaper.

No, it's not, unless you have some extremely specific requirements, and even then it's unlikely.

Go ahead, price it out. The massive volume discounts that a Dell or an HP gets, combined with an extremely sophisticated supply chain, make it cheaper for them to build on an assembly line than the price of the individual components. That's before I count the value of my time.

If you enjoy assembling PCs, great. Have fun, treat it as a hobby.

If you want something extremely specific, then maybe it really will work out cheaper.

But don't think it's a cost saving measure.

Re:Nothing new here

[RocketRabbit]

Son, I've been married for a while now. The trick with the wife is to buy what you want and then worry about it later.

Re:Nothing new here

[Anonymous Coward]

Reminds me of this : Piss Dungeon.

Re:Nothing new here

[93 Escort Wagon]

Which wife is it now - your second or your third?

Re:Nothing new here

[LongearedBat]

maybe some slashdotters really don't understand how to turn a screwdriver.

There are actually some people in the world who don't read slashdot, and I think there are enough of them to establish a market for ready built computers.

Also, ever tried building a laptop? Unfortunately, it's not that easy to find parts that fit together as easily as with minitowers. Especially if you want a sleek ultrabook. And there are many people who are not interested in non-portable computers.

(For the record, I have built my own computers in the past, but now I'm a laptop only user due to my work.)

Re:Nothing new here

[drooling-dog]

This hits the nail right on the head. Unfortunately, it's the corporate marketers that dictate what's cool, and home-built high-performance machines with clean installs of non-proprietary operating systems and zero crapware/malware ain't it.

Re:Nothing new here

[Billly Gates]

Which wife is it now - your second or your third?

If I could like you this comment like Fabebook I would,

In all honesty the only good thing about this boring underclocked CPU/board is that I can get a replacement when needed if it has shit capacitors and looks kind of cool with the blue LED lights that says ASUS. There are worse things in life.

Re:Nothing new here

[T-Bone-T]

The last time I installed Windows, it was more straight-forward than many of the programs I installed afterward.

Re:Nothing new here

[penglust]

Really, sounds like what happened to me with both Dell and Gateway systems. Hours and hours on the "hotline" with a nitwit.

Re:Nothing new here

[jamstar7]

>

Using a Windows machine will always be like this: Trapped face-up, under the urinal in Steve Ballmer's personal piss-dungeon.

Bullshit. Just stop buying PCs and make them yourself. It's faster than fucking around with sales people and its A LOT cheaper. Also, you won't get crapware unless you put it on yourself.

As has been mentioned several times in this thread, most people are afraid of trying to assemble a computer themselves because it's a computer and what happens if they fuck up? Yeah, you can teach somebody how to assemble a computer in under half an hour. Teaching them to get over the fear of assembling something 'as complicated as a computer' will take a helluva lot longer. They tend not to realise that modern computers are designed to be assembled by third-worlders on a shoestring budget to keep profit margins high enough to make selling them cheaply worth it to the rebranding company. After all, every piece is slotted to go in only one way.

I think it took me all of half an hour to assemble the desktop machine I'm using now. Then about 20 minutes to install a bare-bones Ubuntu to the point where I could install all the software I wanted to install over a few days.

Re:Nothing new here

[epyT-R]

yeah and their sleek prettyboxes, made of that glossy plastic that fingerprints and scratches too easily, are largely useless for anything beyond checking facebook AND they're loaded with crapware. yay!

Re:Nothing new here

[Baloroth]

Dual core AMD x64 processor: $58. Hard drive: $59. MB: $59 with integrated AMD Radeon HD and all the extras (didn't see gig-E or USB3.0 in the first example, but you can shop around). 4GB ram: $19 (yeah, ram is that cheap). 250W PSU (couldn't even find 150W): $20. Case: $15. Total: $230 USD, right now. And that is bottom-end components, if you want anything higher, you start getting cheaper than the mass-produced stuff. This took me 1-2 minutes to find, if I shopped around I could maybe push it a bit cheaper (of course, that is with sales, but that works in your advantage since you can pick up each component separately or in combos for the best prices).

And I'm not even using any combo deals, which could drop the price a few dollars. Of course, you don't get Windows for that price, but you don't get the shovel-ware crap, either, plus you get to choose exactly what components you want to maximize without massive markups. Most of the components are likely going to be junk at that price... but the whole computer is junk at that pre-built price.

Re:Nothing new here

[Anonymous Coward]

Keep it up preacher. FYI how long have you been single?

Re:Nothing new here

[WGFCrafty]

This is the OEM business model. Razor-thin manufacturing hardware margins mean that there's a HUGE department that does nothing but inbound deals for software product placement - this is how they get profitability. Don't expect much change. Even with a premium PC line, they won't turn down these dollars thrust upon them from Symantec, and the online-game-of-the-week. Be sure, all of this is instrumented with web-bugs and behavior-tracking galore.

Using a Windows machine will always be like this: Trapped face-up, under the urinal in Steve Ballmer's personal piss-dungeon.

And if a MAC user you pay more for admission, have to swallow, and even rave about the privilege to taste such finely dribbled urine.

Re:Nothing new here

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you fucking serious? Coming from a guy who's sold and built tonnes of Windows machines, there is NO WAY you'd have an OEM license on your system and not be able to do a fresh, crapware-free install. Oddly enough, this is where Microsoft licensing rules actually help you instead of hinder you.

Re:Nothing new here

[ifiwereasculptor]

Home Built PCs tend to follow a simple formula if you're jinxed and don't know what the hell you're doing.

Really, that's pure FUD. First, if you can't properly diagnose hardware, what the hell are you doing building a computer yourself? Second, that only happens when you don't properly select your components. The only things you shouldn't skimp on are memory modules and the PSU. Especially the PSU. Funnily, that's exactly where some of the popular manufacturers cut costs, since they can spend the same amount of money on an i3-based machine with a good PSU or an i5-based machine with a crappy PSU. Since they "hey, it's an i5" is way better advertising than "hey, it has a good part that you probably never heard of and therefore don't care about", they all go for the i5 and then you're possibly fucked on the long term because almost every part of your PC is being fed incorrect voltages (and that can be insanely hard to diagnose at home if you don't know what you're looking for). They also tend to invest as little in cooling as possible, so at most you get an extra fan. Build correctly and you can do way, way better than any manufacturer. After all, they must pay their employees and profit from sales, and no amount of black magic will let them do it while charging you as much as the cost of the components.

Re:Nothing new here

[Anonymous Coward]

If you think Windows has package management, you don't know what package management is.

Re:Nothing new here

[jon3k]

Then how does Apple do it? They make not only a higher quality product but don't include crapware and have some of the largest margins in the industry. Just look what Vizio is doing: http://www.vizio.com/computing/

No crapware!

Re:Nothing new here

[Anonymous Coward]

As a Media Access Control user? What does a MAC address have to do with this?

Re:Nothing new here

[spongman]

I think that depends on one's definition of cool.

What's cool to me is dictated by ... me.

I find it works out better for everyone that way.

Re:Nothing new here

[ozmanjusri]

You can get a laptop built to your specs with vendors like Pioneer. http://pioneercomputers.com.au/products/categories.asp?c1=3. They used to give you the option of Ubuntu pre-installed, but even now you can avoid the Microsoft tax by not selecting an OS.

To my mind, this is how all laptops should be offered.

Re:Nothing new here

[jon3k]

Only because at the lowest end they can get the OEM windows so cheap (which I would immediately wipe anyway).

Below would be a better option (for me) than the one you're referring to which is an AMD E-350 (Intel Atom comparable).

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103873
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813130630
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820148538
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811353007
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817822006
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822148766

Total: 191.95

No, it doesn't include a Windows OS license, which I would be wasting money on anyway, and would be faster.

Re:Nothing new here

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows does not give media companies a universal remote backdoor to delete your data.

"Windows Media DRM is a Digital Rights Management service for the Windows Media platform. It is designed to provide delivery of audio and/or video content over an IP network to a PC or other playback device in such a way that the distributor can control how that content is used."

Re:Nothing new here

[lister king of smeg]

computing myths? windows does hardware checks to make sure that it god forbid, has been moved between computers?, still contains drm for media, and requires install keys a form of drm for the os? still has a habit of only patching security wholes that they absolutely have to? or say that the whole will be patched in the next version instead of fixing the problems? have they been getting better about security yes but they are far from the security level of you average linux desktop.
myth? i think not.

Re:Nothing new here

[Smauler]

To be honest, it's not worth anyone's time putting together a budget PC for themselves, in purely financial terms - they'll end up with a budget PC, and not have saved much, if any money. Budget PCs are almost disposable now. 1 month of 20 a day cigarettes costs about as much as a budget PC where I live (UK).

Building your own is more an ethos, rather than a saving money strategy. I've built my own for years, and saved a little money doing it. I've also, and more importantly IMO (getting back to the original point of the thread) avoided crapware. I hate it with a passion, and won't have it on my PC.

My system is not the best... but until yesterday (power cut) I had 2100 hours uptime. After that 2100 hours, and the obviously poor shutdown... I booted to workable desktop within 1 minute without a hitch. This is with Vista.

This is why I make my own PCs, and get the operating systems separately. The headaches, time, and irritation I avoid is worth more to me than the initial time it takes to build it.... That and the fact I like building a new PC, too.

Re:Nothing new here

[BoogeyOfTheMan]

Back in 07 when i bought this computer from Dell, I really wanted to build my own. I had even priced what I wanted and it would cost me around $800. Sadly, the pc I was using at the time was having random hardware failures, and as I had already spent $200 replacing bits of a 5yr old box, I figured it was time for a whole new box.

The thing was, Dell extended me $1500 in credit. So I could have waited for months, buying a piece here and there as I could afford it, or I could buy a pre-built from Dell and get it right then.

I think that is the reason most people buy the pre-built systems, they want a whole system that works out of the box, right then. And a lot of the major manufacturers offer lines of credit.

Re:Nothing new here

[EvilJoker]

I find it interesting is that every statement like this excludes (or more frequently, omits) the cost ($80-100 or higher) of a legal Windows installation. Most people run Windows, and prefer it to be legal. Then you have to tack on labor - even if you only count active work to build it, it still takes a fair amount of time. Combine that with the illusion of support and warranty, and those $300 PCs (probably closer to the $260 ones) are a more attractive option for most people.

Plus, I've seen a lot of self-built PCs. Biostar boards, Apex (or worse) PSUs, unbranded RAM, and no testing. Almost all would've gotten a better product if they'd just bought something off the shelf- even Acer makes better systems than that. Granted, I've seen DIY systems with ASUS/Gigabyte/etc, but those tend to be even more expensive.

The only market segment where it makes financial sense is the high-end of the market. All major OEMs have razor-thin profit margins on the low-end. They make their real money on the high-end. When you get to the $1000 range, you can build a substantially better machine for a lower price, Windows and all.

Re:Nothing new here

[Cinder6]

I helped my brother pick out a new computer this weekend. After looking at the prices of PCs in his range ($350), I decided that building him a system would be far more cost effective. Note I didn't say cheaper--it wound up being $50 more--but it's a pretty decent system all the same, and with specs significantly better than the pre-built he was looking at.

When I compare my PC to similar pre-built models, I find that the pre-builts tend to cost $800 more, and with worse hardware.

Then again, maybe my local stores just suck.

Re:Nothing new here

[Anonymous Coward]

I have never, ever, in all my life spent $2k on parts for a high-end PC. The sweet spot for price:performance is always around $1200. Only a showboating crackhead (read: teh hardcorez gamer) would pay more.

Case: $125. PSU: $75. CPU: $300. Mobo: $275. RAM: $75. GPU: $250. HDD: $100. Other hardware: Under $100. Use the Windows license you already have. As long as you install from the original disk (not an ISO), the activation stuff doesn't give you problems, even after a mobo swap-out. Also, waiting a couple of years between activations helps. Only buy a new license if you absolutely must. Total cost: $1200 and change. Shopping around can get you a short-time deal on some parts, especially this time of year. That also reduces cost.

The CPU will be top-shelf desktop-grade (not idiot-overclocker level or server-grade). The GPU will be mid-high level current gen. The mobo will have all kinds of fancy bells and whistles, and likely at least two LAN ports. The PSU will be sturdy and fault-tolerant. The HDD will be non-SSD, but with plenty of space and plenty fast.

(I have bought fully-assembled computers for far more than $2000. Like that beige G3 Mac I dropped $5k on... ah, youth. Derpy, derpy youth.)

Re:Nothing new here

[Gr8Apes]

I'd agree. I would still get an Apple iMac over the Acer, but I'd vote neither personally. And this is from someone that owns Apple products and has built a number of my own systems, including 3 hacks (ie, home built OSX machines) My current rig runs about 20% faster than the equivalent Mac Pro at the time, and cost me significantly less, primarily because I happened upon a deal and a half on the CPU. I installed W7 for all of 10s on it, and the promptly installed Ubuntu and started on the hack, mainly to see if I could do it. I now use it as my primary machine.

Re:Nothing new here

[Jeremiah Cornelius]

People pay more for a better product.

That's something the "me too" PC vendors cannot do. There's little to differentiate. Now, they are addicted to this model, on top of everything.

Re:Nothing new here

[Jafafa Hots]

That depends on whether you use a computer as a tool or as a fashion accessory and status symbol.

Re:Nothing new here

[Jeremiah Cornelius]

Yes. I saw this on the Register.co.uk at the time. It seemed like an appropriate metaphor.

Re:Nothing new here

[Jafafa Hots]

Not to mention that most people don't know the difference between hard drive space, memory and how many photos they're allowed to upload on Facebook.

Re:Nothing new here

[Jafafa Hots]

Do you know anyone who actually uses "Windows Media" with drm?

I don't.
People use MP3s, mp4s, avis, and mkv files. Even if hey don;t KNOW it.

Who buys music in WMA format with DRM?
Anyone? Maybe a few, but not the vast majority of Windows users.

On the other hand, what percentage of Apple users use media with Apple DRM?

ALL of them.

Re:Nothing new here

[Bremic]

Knowing what you are doing has nothing to do with it. Parts fail, and often they are nearly impossible to diagnose exactly what the problem is. This is why most corporations pay for quick replacement on fail of equipment, because it's not always easy. Otherwise the vendors wouldn't come with a new piece of equipment, they would arrive and swap what is broken. But they don't do that.

It also boils down to what you buy, and more importantly, where you buy it. I used to make my own equipment, and for me it was fine; however after returning a faulty MB with an intermittent network card failure and watching them while I am still in the store air clean it and put it back into stock convinced me that you generally don't want to buy parts from anywhere other than the manufacturer, and who does that? It's impossible to spot faulty PC equipment by eye (most of the time), so selling returns as new happens. They even put new stickers on the anti-static packaging.

I congratulate you for being the supreme king of diagnostics who can look at a computer for 20 seconds and know exactly where a failure occurred, because I would say most of the people who are purchasing PCs can't do that, and have to put a value on the time they have to waste trying to figure it out without any spare parts.

Re:Nothing new here

[Anonymous Coward]

How did L.Ron Hubbard do it? How did Jim Jones do it?

Re:Nothing new here

[hairyfeet]

Oh please! You make it sound like its some big hard problem! Just use PC Decrappifier takes five minutes IF that, and call it a day. It'll not only clean out the trialware but any extra crap the OEM puts to sell their own stuff (such as all the HP services crap) and it takes just a couple of clicks and all done.

And I would remind everyone that Sony offered a few years back to sell any PC you wanted crap free for just $50 extra, they had so few takers they quit bothering. Personally I'll keep the $50 and take 5 minutes to clean the crap on a laptop, desktops i build my own.

Re:Nothing new here

[lgw]

The price of a computer depends mostly on what you include in the price! Good IPS monitors used to be pretty expensive, as did Bluray drives.

In my case I tend to pay a lot for storage (I'm a storage guy, so I'm just sensitive about perforance there). A fast SSD and a few TB of high-quality spinning disk adds a few hundred.

Still, easy to spend more and get lower quality parts when you pass the $1k mark, whichever parts you're counting in the total.

Re:Nothing new here

[crutchy]

you obviously never built your own

i build all my pcs and i won't buy unless i can make up at least a 50% saving compared to retail oem

...but then again i also install debian, not winblows

Re:Nothing new here

[lgw]

What are you going on about? Sure, Windows wants to make sure you actually paid, but that part's unobtrusive (if you swap several parts it will give you an "activate" button to click, but I've never seen it fail so it's just a click.

I guess Windows gives you a way to play media that has DRM? Is that bad? Anything that can stream Netflix "contains DRM for media", right?

Are you confusing the OS and applications when it comes to security? Modern security threats target the user and the add-ons to his browser. Since Vista (5 years ago now) Windows has joined the pack in not having users run as admin. The only modern OS that's different in terms of security these days is SE Linux, the rest are basically the same, for what little that matters.

Re:Nothing new here

[Omestes]

My last home-built PC that had any cycle like that was almost 10 years ago, and it broke around 3 years after building it (upgrading GPU and HDD meant new PSU, new PSU was bad, and fried pretty much everything). Before that I had a problem building one due to a string of bad motherboards, but all of that was Fry's fault (before they had to label used/returned parts), never cost me a cent, and Newegg saved the day (and some money). This PC runs like a charm, and its on year 4. The only bits I replace are for upgrades.

I'm sorry you had a bad time of it, it seems, but this is pretty rare once you know what your doing. I've been building my own PCs since the mid-90's, and rarely have had a problem. But I've had terrible luck on pre-builts, and when I don't, I need to buy a new one every time I upgrade something since they generally suck for expanding, and have pretty crappy components. I'm not willing to spend $800+ (about the level of components I have,pre-build price) every 2-3 years, just to upgrade my graphics card.

Re:Nothing new here

[crutchy]

he's obviously never heard the age old (and oh so true) saying "happy wife, happy life"

i'm sure there are husbands that feel the need to "be the man" and "wear the pants", but they really are the idiots of the married world, and will often be the ones that end up a multiple divorcee.

Re:Nothing new here

[lgw]

Do you? Windows has package management by any reasonable definition. XML-manifest-based installs and uninstalls that handle dependency checking, upgrades, and so on. Heck, the XML installer toolkit was Microsoft's first "shared source" project to be hosted on SourceForge.

Not everyone uses it, of course: corporations just love to give money to Macrovision for some reason, and force user interaction when there's no need for any. But even the hideous InstallShield uses the package managment system by default these days, until you override sane interaction with the OS.

What Windows doesn't have (until Win8) in an app store / managed distro. But that's something that uses a package management system.

Re:Nothing new here

[crutchy]

based on personal experience, and since i don't use windows, its cheaper (unless you're an idiot and buy your parts from an oem)

Re:Nothing new here

[Omestes]

Apple movies have DRM, yes. As does every other movie rental service. Apple music, though, hasn't had DRM in a very, very, long time now. They actually were one of the first music stores to strip DRM, this is one thing I actually liked Apple for, they were the good guys here.

The only caveat is that music from iTMS does have some watermarks, which doesn't really affect anyone unless they release it into the wild (even then, I haven't heard of it hurting anyone, but the potential is there). For normal use, it is completely open music.

Re:Nothing new here

[jibjibjib]

Yes, I'm serious. But if my comment is as moronic as you seem to think it is, maybe you can actually help me. I have a couple of computers here which came with OEM crapware Windows and no clean install media (only the option to create crapware recovery discs). How do I get a free, legal, clean Windows installation?

Re:Nothing new here

[Smauler]

Do price it out...

I very much doubt that Dell or HP offer systems that have top end graphics cards at prices you could build yourself, buying retail parts. That's not extremely specific, that's what a whole host of people use their PC's for, that's gaming. People buy these cards. Dell and HP don't put them in their machines, because they're expensive.

If someone wants to build or buy a gaming rig, you're either spending top dollar or building your own. There's no real in between.

Firstly, even now processor speed (I'm not talking just Ghz) matters way more than the number of cores in gaming - there are still basically no games that utilise more than 2 cores effectively. Many "gaming" rigs feature slower multicore processors.

Secondly, there are lots of cheap (or at least cheaper) motherboards out there which are as quick as the expensive ones. By the same manufacturers. Sold rigs always use high end ones you don't need.

Thirdly, expensive high speed RAM that a lot of "gaming" systems use actually has worse latency than cheap slower RAM. In many cases, the latency is more important than than the outright speed.

Fourthly, many of these gaming systems throw in old SSDs, or no SSD at all. Not all SSDs are the same, and these systems generally put crap ones in.. I've never used them, but the next system I buy they will be first. Currently I run 2 striped SATA drives, which are quick enough for me most of the time.

I've just installed Skyrim on my ancient (comparatively) system, and it thinks I should play on high graphical settings, 1920*1200, 8AA, 8AF, most things on. This is a relatively inexpensive about 5 year old system, the only upgrade being a new graphics card a year or two ago (460gtx*).

*This is, however, about the quickest graphics card you should put in my motherboard, which is only PCI-E 1. Quicker cards than this will be limited by the older interface. My next upgrade is going to be an entirely new system.

Re:Nothing new here

[crutchy]

parts fail regardless of whether you build yourself or buy oem... the difference is that oem shit is likely to fail sooner (as soon as the warranty runs out) and unless you're willing to pay a premium for after sales service, you'll get nothing but runarounds and idiots on the phone that you can't even understand when you need to get something fixed.

i buy parts from my local store owner, who i can talk to in person and he's a local too. he gets parts as part of a national network, so cost is very cheap for decent brands.

Re:Nothing new here

[crutchy]

linux is even easier (well, debian anyways)

Re:Nothing new here

[egranlund]

Every Windows box ships with a key on the side of it that you can use with an OEM Windows disk to put a fresh install on...

Re:Nothing new here

[mwvdlee]

Yes, building your own is cheaper if your time is worthless.

Re:Nothing new here

[green1]

Often the only copy of Windows that you are legally allowed to put on the machine you just bought is the restore CD that came with it. Which has all the crapware loaded on it.

So to "clean" Windows by doing a fresh Windows install, you generally have to either purchase a whole new Windows license (in addition to the one you paid for when you bought the machine) or pirate Windows (despite already having paid for it)

Re:Nothing new here

[green1]

True. But his point still stands that Crapware doesn't play by the rules. If an OEM installs Crapware that they want on your system, they won't put it in a package that can easily be removed through the package manager, You'd likely have to do it manually which is no different from Windows.

Re:Nothing new here

[Sorthum]

Some people just want a computer, not a hobby.

Re:Nothing new here

[green1]

Has something changed there? Because in the past Microsoft has been quite clear that the OEM license on your machine does not permit you to download a retail copy from wherever you want to install it, and being that the only Windows CD that comes with most machines is the restore CD (which is loaded with all the garbage) I'd love to hear how exactly you are supposed to legally acquire a clean copy of Windows to install on that machine that came with the OEM version on a restore CD (not an install CD)

Re:Nothing new here

[Sorthum]

This is something of a dated way of thinking. In 2012, you don't usually see component failures; while it happens, it doesn't happen nearly as frequently as it used to. Therefore, "knowing what's in the box" is a value add of dubious value to many users. "Seagate, Western Digital, I don't care, I just don't want it to break on me."

Re:Nothing new here

[Sorthum]

"A fraction of the cost," while technically true, is far from the truism it used to be. Gone are the days where you could spend $800 and get the equivalent of a $3000 prebuilt system. In many cases, you're hard pressed just to break even today.

Re:Nothing new here

[Smauler]

The last time I built my own and tried to install Windows I got this. It was a bug that didn't allow Vista 64 to install on my motherboard chipset with more than 2gb of RAM. You try to fault diagnose that - windows install bluescreens and reboots. You can't see the bluescreen message, because you can't get windows to halt on errors because it's not installed yet. It just reboots.

Fortunately, I had a win2k installation on the same machine, and I managed to find other people who had had the same problem, and then got to the hotfix. However, obviously you could not install the hotfix without running Vista, which would not install. Fortunately I had 2*2gb sticks (rather than any*4), so I took one out and it installed fine. Applied the hotfix, stuck the other stick back in, and it worked.

When did you last install Windows?

Re:Nothing new here

[Anonymous Coward]

Hail to the king, baby.

Re:Nothing new here

[hairyfish]

Building your own, if you know what you're doing and know what you want...

That's a pretty big if, and is equally true for cars, houses, low orbit launch platforms etc... which is why there exists a market for turnkey solutions. Not everyone knows everything, and most people are happy to pay for someone else to do the hard work.

Re:Nothing new here

[Sir_Sri]

Laptops are trickier because of the thermals though, you can't throw whatever into a case and if you need more cooling add a fan later. With a laptop you have very narrow limits on how much heat you can get out of the case, and more than that and you're going to cause yourself no end of grief, and most of us can't do that maths.

Swapping a hard drive is one thing, but the GPU/CPU combo can be a big problem.

Re:Nothing new here

[Zakabog]

When did you last install Windows?

Probably after Windows 7, it installed very quickly and easily last time I installed it (probably a month or two ago, I build a lot of computers.) Plus, you're referencing a 6 year old bug from an OS that has been followed by 2 major releases. I'm generally a Windows hater (especially 7) but you're arguing just for the sake of arguing.

Re:Nothing new here

[Sir_Sri]

I price this stuff out on a weekly basis. Sometimes, especially really low end or really high end machines I recommend a pre built. If you want to spend under 400 bucks I usually can't match the component costs. If you want to spend 3000-20 000 I usually can't source the components because they ~10-15k runs and almost all of that inventory goes to the big guys first.

The 700-2500 dollar price point is almost always cheaper to build yourself, but of course you don't get a warranty with that, but you also can get more sensible combinations of components. Putting a 70 dollar graphics card in a 700 dollar machine is not doing the buyer any favours.

Granted I live one block from a tigerdirect so I don't have to pay shipping costs.

Re:Nothing new here

[Sir_Sri]

Depends how long it takes. I usually charge 100 bucks an hour for IT work and 200 for consulting or research related stuff (PhD candidate in comp sci). I can build a machine in about 30-45 minutes. And I typically charge 50 bucks for it. If I take 45 minutes it's usually because I forgot something and have to run to the shop to buy a SATA cable or something stupid.

Re:Nothing new here

[Sir_Sri]

Of course. I wasn't suggesting it's necessarily worth the cost savings to build your own. If you're going to save 50 or 100 bucks you might be happier to have a pre-built with a warranty. If the first thing you do when it gets to your door is void the warranty though, there isn't much point.

You also have to know what components you want, that requires research and time. I build probably half a dozen PC's a week for people on the side, and I do requirements for each one so I tend to stay current, but if you build one PC every 3 years and don't know the difference between GPU's and don't know where to find the difference buying a pre-built will get the job done.

Re:Nothing new here

[Anonymous Coward]

Well its Microsoft....

Re:Nothing new here

[Artea]

OEM machines do include a product key attached. You are licensing the software when you buy that machine, you aren't buying the recovery disk. Grab a clean OEM installation disk from a friend, ask for a copy from the shop you bought it from (a non crapware version that they keep in their workshop) or download a copy. The disk is just an installation media, and has nothing to do with your license of windows.

That said, the disk is still handy. You can call up MS support, claim your sticker has been torn up or damaged, and get a replacement key from them - they will ask for either the part number on the inner ring of the disk, or ask you to scan/photograph the disk.

Additionally you are able to activate your copy of windows online up to 3 times per month, after that you will need to contact them over the phone, and when asked by the automated machine, say that you are installing it on the same computer, and that it is only installed only on that computer exclusively.

Re:Nothing new here

[robot5x]

my concern is that the consumer goodys will become so ubiquitous and saturate the market that it will become near impossible to buy separate components in future, and even having the choice of whether to build my own machine or not will be indirectly decided by the masses.

Re:Nothing new here

[robot5x]

My dad:

so... I've got a problem with the bluetooth. I've tried usb'ing into the internet, but when I download the flash drive it gives my ram a virus and I'm pretty sure that's why I'm not getting farmville updates

Re:Nothing new here

[DriedClexler]

The GP was asking about portable systems, where hacking the hardware yourself isn't really an option, given how immodular laptops are. Maybe you can swap out or add RAM or the HD, but that's about it.

Re:Nothing new here

[ifiwereasculptor]

Knowing what you are doing has nothing to do with it.

These words are typical of someone with a really, really bad case of doesn'tknowwhathe'stalkingaboutitis. Trust me, I'm

the supreme king of diagnostics

Re:Nothing new here

[lightknight]

All the major OEMs are idiots who decided, at some point, that marketing mattered more than the hardware they put in the machines themselves. They're just getting their own desserts in that regard. I mean, the average consumer just has never been taught that a 5400 RPM HD is a giant bottleneck, and can't tell the difference between an OEM that offers one with and without -> they see machines purely as appliances, something to buy and never upgrade. And surprise, OEMs worked to maintain that image -> they shipped 'smaller' cases with no upgradability, custom PSUs, and underpowered heatsinks. They confirmed their customer's bias, which is their own fault...oh, and look, they're doing the same in the Smartphone world! Hands up, how many people have or have had a phone which, while being capable of running ICS, is still stuck on 2.2 or 2.3? How many people fault Google for going nuclear over this, and buying part of Motorola to 'fix' the problem? These people save a few bucks in the short term, and destroy the companies they are working for in the long term. They have no understanding of planning, or maintaining a certain level of brand / quality among their customers. It's just pump and dump: pump a product up (usually done before they are hired), with rave reviews and good hardware, then gut the hardware / fire the engineers, then outsource it all overseas, and cash in as people continue buying the next version of the product, unaware that the quality has gone to shit -> what's it matter? In six months, the people in charge of that Titanic will be piloting another company into an iceberg, while the old one is up on the blocks (all the capital has been spent, the talent gone, and no one wants to buy from them even with special cut-rate deals).

HP? Hands up, who here, having dealt with Compaq for any number of years towards its end, thought that that merger was a good idea? Anyone? See, no one. Compaq needed to die, to prevent spreading the plague to others. Instead, someone arranged a marriage; how trite.

The major OEMs want to save themselves? Fire the morons; if Marketing is telling the techs what to build, you're in for a world of hurt (remember, Marketing would be happy selling hot dogs on a corner somewhere if a customer survey said that it was the next big thing). Then spend the next 5 years actually listening to your techs about your build quality, and maybe you will survive. You'll need to combat brand fatigue, where all your customers are wary of whether or not you are just getting lucky with the latest builds, or if you have actually changed. It will take 5 years to clear out everyone's current beliefs about you and your quality, there is no rushing that. You're going to need to 'lift the brand,' not reinvent it. You'll have to convince your customers, through proof, that you are not following Apple, that you are where they want to be, and hate themselves for not being there right now. Stop trying to guess where Apple is going next; you're not them, you have different advantages, and you do not want to be them. Give the whole form factor thing a miss, as the smaller form factors tend to have lower margins (or as it is commonly known as "Why are we shipping more products than before, but our profits are in the tank?"). And there is nothing wrong with having money on the books if you haven't decided what to do with it yet: there is, and I repeat, there is, nothing wrong with having $2B laying around in the company coffers if you don't see anything worth investing in. I know, Wall St. hates that, as does your Econ professor, but guess what? There are a lot of shit investments out there, and it takes a long time to see if one is worth purchasing; buying shit investments just to get rid of the extra money / please the Street will doom your company. And once again, there is nothing wrong with issuing a one-time Dividend to shut them up, if they get too loud.

Re:Nothing new here

[lightknight]

Unfortunately, I would have to agree with you there. There was, at one point, an attempt to fix the laptop market with upgradable motherboards and what not, but I haven't heard anything about it recently.

And yes, non-geeks tend to buy laptops, or tablets. *shudder* They just need to see, first-hand, the difference between a desktop and a laptop, and they will eventually come around to the dark geeky side. The designated comfy chair + hideaway tends to appeal to the masses, as you can do whatever, with a lot of power under your fingertips, in a socially acceptable situation, which does not work elsewhere. Gaming, work, pr0n, etc. And yes, the comfy chair is very comfortable, as is not having a 17" laptop frying your nads.

The only problem with my current build is AMD's attempt to take Intel's "WTF were we thinking" crown that they earned when they bopped out the Itanium. Windows doesn't seem to like the full-core / not full-core design, and keeps throwing up cross-threading errors with Explorer. That it got this far is beyond me...

Re:Nothing new here

[lightknight]

Can Dell or HP make a cheaper machine? Certainly.

Is it a machine that anyone should be allowed to buy? Hell no.
They tend to rank up there with the Cyrix machines of yester-year, something to avoid.

Unfortunately, the types who buy the bottom barrel machines are typically the ones who know the least about the hardware. "They certainly wouldn't sell me a shite machine" -> average person who buys these machines.

Yes, yes they would, and their designs are built around the idea that "one is born every minute." The kind of person who does not take the time to understand what they are buying, and thinks that some god out there protects fools from their actions. Well, there might be a god out there who does, but IMHO, he / she / they appear very overworked, so let's do a little something nice for them around this time of year, and try to lighten the workload a little, right?

If you see someone buying a machine with a 5400 RPM HD, stop them. Same thing if it has 2 GBs of RAM, or, arguably, lacks a discrete video card. Just do it, and feel good about doing it. You're saving everyone else a lot of hassle 3 weeks into the future.

Ask the person, when you go to buy a car, do you buy the absolute cheapest model that just ANYONE is offering? No? I didn't think so. This machine is not the one you want, this one over here probably is.

I think a major problem for tech is that there are simply no words which convey an adequate understanding of how much nicer their experience will be for every extra $20 they chip in. I'd say its inversely logarithmic, but even that might be too complicated. Nerf the warranty they are trying to sell you (the manufacturer typically covers machines for 3 years, and so on), and spend the money on better features.

Re:Nothing new here

[lightknight]

Building your own is cheaper if the market simply doesn't offer what you want.

Surprise surprise, larger OEMs do not tend to put out machines with Radeon HD 7970s. That means the top-end is not being covered either, unless you think a Radeon HD 7870 is the best that ATI can do (it's not). The larger OEMs are sitting kind of on the middle to lower end of hardware offerings, from what I can see.

But they will certainly charge you like they are top of the line if you will let them.

Re:Nothing new here

[thegarbz]

Parts fail, and often they are nearly impossible to diagnose exactly what the problem is.

Actually most teenagers can diagnose what the problem is. Hell your earlier post is a clear indication you should not be part of the computer building industry. Suspecting RAM and then not running some simple products that test the RAM is a hellova newbie mistake. I don't know of anyone who's ever gone through what you suggest. There are test suits for bloody everything these days.

Also last two times my sister's Dell laptop broke the vendor came out and did exactly what you said they don't do. They came to the house and swapped out the wifi card, and then next time the monitor, both broke because pre-built system are made out of cheap crap components.

Re:Nothing new here

[lightknight]

Most people are sheep, and would consider a worthwhile life to contain a happy childhood, a good job, and a wonderful family.

Some people want more. Some people are like Cave Johnson, and will not be satisfied with life's meager offerings. They're the ones looking down from distant mountain peeks, and still pressing the elevator button up.

And for many of them, their life's passion started off as a hobby that they practised in their garage.

So why are you asking people to settle for less? L-o-w-e-r E-x-p-e-c-t-a-t-i-o-n-s...

Re:Nothing new here

[lightknight]

And that's why there is a market for people who do want to know everything, or at least sizeable chunks of it...and who will pay quite handsomely for any offerings that actually deliver.

Re:Nothing new here

[lightknight]

Will not be a problem for much longer. Those corporate marketers have bled their home companies dry.

Re:Nothing new here

[Anonymous Coward]

You call spending an hour assembling your new PC a hobby?

Re:Nothing new here

[Anonymous Coward]

Really? This is your argument for buying prebuilt? You're spending all your spare time being productive and earning money?

Re:Nothing new here

[hawkinspeter]

You say you hate crapware and yet you're running Vista?

Re:Nothing new here

[Anonymous Coward]

Trapped face-up, under the urinal in Steve Ballmer's personal piss-dungeon.

Excellent description.

Re:Nothing new here

[mwvdlee]

I'm spending my spare time doing things I enjoy.

If you enjoy researching the hardware and building together your own machine then fine, but if not than it does really boil down to how much you value your time. Hobbies cost time and money, why wouldn't the hobby of building computers?

I much more enjoy other things than researching and buying all the prefab parts and screwing them together. Actually the latter part is still a fun 30 minutes or so, but doing the research and having to wade through pages of marketing spin in order to find the grains of truth I need in order to figure out the best components for my purposes, is just no longer enjoyable.

Point is, if you are building your own computer solely for the purpose of saving money, you should measure time spent as a cost too.

Re:Nothing new here

[lightknight]

Laptops are portable, and the laptop market does not support custom builds.

The desktop or home market, on the other hands, are not portable, and do support custom builds.

Let's compare builds:

Acer Aspire 7600U
Weight: 22 lbs
Dimensions: 25.98" x 18.58" x 1.37"
Screen size: 27" Full HD 1920 x 1080 wide-viewing
Touch: 10 points multiuser touch
Hard drive size: 1000 GB HDD
RAM: 8 GB
Processor: 3rd-generation Intel Core i7-3630QM or i5-3210M processor
Graphics: NVIDIA GeForce GT640M, 2 GB VRAM

Lightknight's Custom Build (currently shipping)
Screen size: 47" Full HD 1920 x 1080 wide-viewing (Vizio)
Touch: None on the screen, optional with slate / stylus (for artists).
Hard drive: 240 GB SSD (Corsair Force 3 / GT), 3000 GB HD (Seagate 7200 RPM)
RAM: 32 GB (Corsair)
Processor: AMD Bulldozer 8150 or Piledriver 8350 (with Corsair self-contained water-cooled setup, currently using SilenX fans)
Graphics: HIS ATI Radeon HD 7970, 3GB VRAM

The fans that I am using have not, under the latest loads, proven adequate enough (I like my processors to barely exceed room temperature), so I am swapping them out for some Deltas (which WILL cool the system no matter what the load might be). I also use discrete sound cards, with Asus / Omega being some of the latest offerings. The cases are ATX Full Tower, the optical drives are Blu-Ray burners from LG, the media card bays (accepting any number of flash cards) are AFT (had some issues with the Rosewill parts), the power supplies are Thermaltake ToughPower (supported wattage varies with market availability / pricing, minimum is currently 850 Watts) which are designed to survive a direct lightning strike or something. Keyboards / mice are typically user-specified. Motherboard is an Asus Crosshair V. The machines are not overclocked, but have all the hardware / cooling necessary to overclock them to a frightening degree; customers can safely overclock to a much higher setting. And yes, I have been looking at Intel's offerings, as the Bulldozer / Piledriver fiasco has been an irritation.

The important differences are that the Acer item is self-contained, and has a touch-screen. And I'd probably not ship a machine with Windows 8 (you're getting Windows 7 64-bit Ultimate Edition). So, if you like a machine that 'looks good' but runs like a dog, you'll probably favor the Acer. Or if you have some killer app that needs a 27" touch screen (restriction on the screen size, as I don't think customers will be pleased with having to get up, lean over, or walk around to hit various icons on 40"+ screens; making the touch interface only useful on smaller screens, not exactly a selling point, as I can scale up as large as LCDs can be made; you're stuck with a 27" touch screen, and I'm offering a 60" regular screen with mouse and keyboard...wait you have one too, so what was the point behind your touch screen?).

Re:Nothing new here

[Anonymous Coward]

I actually tell my wife she can buy anything she wants, strangely she doesn't, she becomes all self controlled with her unlimited spending power.
This strategy gives me excellent leverage for my own purchases.

Re:Nothing new here

[lightknight]

I do it all the time. Just out of curiosity, what motherboard did you encounter this on, so I can add the company name to the list of people to avoid.

Re:Nothing new here

[Anonymous Coward]

Include a monitor or windows 8 in the budget. Walmart sold 15" windows 8 laptops for $180 on black friday. I hate to be the one to point out when there's poop in the pudding, but I can't imagine buying a $66 windows license and building a computer to run it for less than $114 (180-66).

I'm not saying it's impossible to make a cheaper computer period on your own. If you use a free operating system running free apps you can cut out all of the software costs, and you can run lighter apps to cut down a lot of the hardware cost; especially if you're willing to re-purpose some existing/used/orphaned machines.

The computer I use most now is built out of the following things:

Debian (Openbox+Qt+TeX/X/Gnu/Linux)
A four port usb hub.
A wireless keyboard+trackpad.
A free pen drive.
A used copy of Ghouls n Ghosts for the Sega Genesis.
18 adhesive furniture pads.
A used television.
A usb wifi card about the size of a nickel.
Misc. wires. Some old, some new.
A raspberry pi board.

The total cost of things I had to buy was less than sixty bucks. The keyboard and the raspberry pi made up the majority of the cost. But in a way this goes back to the Wal-Mart thing. If my mom asked for a computer and I gave her a Sega Genesis storage case with four usb ports and a HDMI output and told her, "Just run this cord from your TV to this port and plug your phone charger into this short, dangly cord . . ."

She'd probably ask if I could just pick her up the $250 computer from Wal-Mart because that one runs power point and she (I cross my heart this is true) needs to use power point once every weekend from home for her job.

Re:Nothing new here

[lightknight]

Lol. Yes, the larger OEMs tend to have better testing on their configurations, no, they are not immune to criminal stupidity when sourcing some of their components. They have, in times past, been burned many a time by component providers, and even their weight was not enough to ensure a fix.

Getting hit with a configuration issue is something about as rare as a lightning strike these days. You have to have some serious bad luck to choose some components with a hit or miss issue, which once again, can mostly be avoided / curtailed by reading the customer reviews / doing a little googling when deciding which parts to buy.

Re:Nothing new here

[lightknight]

Well, let's see here, it does run games, and it is still reasonably open when compared with the walled garden of Mac OS X. God forbid you should install a video card not blessed by the late S. Jobs.

Re:Nothing new here

[lightknight]

Indeed. And remind me, how is Ubuntu these days? Loving the Unity interface, and I believe recently, some Amazonian love?

"This boot brought to you by Cheerios. Setting up eth0...."

Re:Nothing new here

[lightknight]

Sadly, this is somewhat true, but then, it is the cost of living. One copy of Windows 7 Ultimate, OEM-pricing off Newegg...not a high price to pay for being able to play games, run Visual Studio (the heroin of the programming world), etc...

Re:Nothing new here

[PCM2]

So, if you like a machine that 'looks good' but runs like a dog, you'll probably favor the Acer

All due respect, but by most accounts Windows 8 requires fewer resources and runs better than Windows 7, the new Start Screen notwithstanding.

Re:Nothing new here

[lightknight]

Bah, you should have gone for the jugular. Ask him how Gnome / KDE are working out for him lately (we all feel the pain).

Re:Nothing new here

[lightknight]

1.) People who wouldn't pay $300 for a Windows or Linux computer will gladly take out a mortgage to afford a $2000 Mac. So, money.

2.) The hardware is fine, the software is fine if you like being stuck in one of those rolling hamster balls...

Re:Nothing new here

[dwywit]

Hell, yes. I actively discourage people from buying hardware from me - I can't justify enough of a markup to make it worth my while. So if customers insist, I quote them a realistic (for me) price. Typically, a populated mini-tower for the same price as {major retailer} gives you that, plus keyboard, mouse and monitor.

Re:Nothing new here

[lightknight]

Nonsense. The people at the "Pirate Bay" movie rental service tell me that none of their movies come with DRM...

Re:Nothing new here

[lightknight]

And yet they are perfectly willing to call a tech friend or family member at 3 AM to drive out to the boon-docks to fix a minor browser problem. Repeatedly, actually.

I think it's not fear, but laziness. We've successfully taught people that learning = pain, or is some nerddy exercise, and they are just living up to society's expectations of them.

Re:Nothing new here

[lightknight]

And yet we let them drive metal vehicles with sharp pointy edges at high speeds from place to place.

Someone, put together a "My First Build / Computer book," and put it up on Amazon for $5. Will make an excellent stocking stuffer.

Re:Nothing new here

[TapeCutter]

You don't have to build it yourself. Here in Australia it is the same price to get someone at a specialist PC shop to build the PC and install windows for you as it is to buy the parts and assemble it yourself, I've been buying PC's that way for at least 15yrs and never had a problem with crapware. One tip, the OEM windows CD that comes with the motherboard is about half the price of the retail version of windows, I have never found crapware on an OEM windows CD, which implies it must be installed separately at build time.

Of course if you go to a big department store where the PC's are pre-built and displayed alongside washing machines and fridges, your going to get crapware when you boot it up at home. This (along with price and service) is why I recommend to friends that they should avoid buying a PC from a department store, I always point them towards a local PC shop and tell them to do their own shopping.

Re:Nothing new here

[Ed Avis]

You can Frankenstein your laptop too... I bought a Dell and replaced the motherboard, processor and heatsink, memory, hard disk, wireless card, and part of the case. I have a replacement video card and keyboard waiting to be installed. But admittedly you cannot simply build a laptop from scratch.

Re:Nothing new here

[Anonymous Coward]

most people are NOT DIY'ers

to build your own, you need to keep tabs on computer hardware, install your own OS, and keep track of warantee on a dozen or so parts.

Not that hard really, haven't kept tabs on computer parts for 8 years, and I just built a new machine for myself. Just stick all the warantee info to same place, and if something breaks (which is unlikely to happen) you can search for it.

Then you have to fix it when it breaks.

Well, yeah, but it won't if you built it well. And repairing it is easier and cheaper than dealing with someone else repairing it or buying a new one.

You also get one point of contact for warrantee. If ANYTHING breaks, they fix it. How the fuck would a n00b know a CPU/motherboard problem from a HD problem?

n00b won't know, and if they just send the computer away to get it fixed they will never know and will always remain n00bs.

Then there is OS installs. Most people want to plug it in, and have it work. A prior generation preffered laptops to desktops because they couldn't figure out which holes to plug things in. Expect them to navigate a windows installer?

It's not like windows installer is actually hard. Stick the DVD in, answer some expert level questions such as "Where do you live?" "Whicj language do you understand?" Ubuntu is even easier.

Fuck no. After making the mistake of building PCs for friends and family, I tell anyone who's not tech savy to just buy a computer that comes assembled, with warrantee, and tech support.(those guys don't get paid enough for doing that, an extra $200 on the tag to answer stupid n00b questions for two years), If anyone wants me to build them a PC, today its $50 on top of parts for assemble and test, and another $200, for 2 years of being able to call me on the phone and answer your stupid n00b questions.

Ah, you don't build computers for others, you build them for yourself. However if the person asking for help, really wants to learn and need you to _help_, not do it all by yourself, help them, they are on their way away from n00bism.

when you buy a PC in the store, your not paying for the parts, your paying for the service.

Yea well, personally i've never needed the service.

Re:Nothing new here

[azalin]

By the way: You can always wipe the hard disk and install a new os (or the original sans crap). Just sayin'

Re:Nothing new here

[azalin]

he's obviously never heard the age old (and oh so true) saying "happy wife, happy life"

This and the good old "hell has no fury like a woman scorned".

Re:Nothing new here

[azalin]

Maybe, just maybe, you might want to consider that some people have different priorities. If you want to climb mountains you should probably spend more time outdoor than at home assembling a computer. Of course it provides a better (at least for your use) result, but sometimes close enough does the trick just fine. I have built quite a couple of computers and just fail to see, why this is much grander than assembling Ikea furniture.

Re:Nothing new here

[paiute]

Which wife is it now - your second or your third?

Are you forgetting where you are? It's his inflatable wife.

(Who knows how many have worn out on him. 'Til death or a leak us do part.)

Re:Nothing new here

[Anonymous Coward]

Really? Man, Melinda Gates really has you whipped. Haven't you told her you're a billionaire?

Also, I'm sure your buddy Steve Ballmer would give you a real copy of Windows for free, what with you being the founder of Microsoft and all.

Re:Nothing new here

[Anonymous Coward]

And then start replacing the components. Starting with a real case with actual space, then there's the hard drive (320 GB? I replaced mine four years ago, back then 1TB was a reasonable size), real sound card, and if the 150W power supply is enough for the graphics card, you'd probably need to factor in a graphics card upgrade and a larger power supply when you're at it.

Now how much did you save on buying a pre-build PC after replacing all the hopelessly outdated components?

Re:Nothing new here

[Dunbal]

I have never, ever, in all my life spent $2k on parts for a high-end PC.

Then you're just not old enough! I remember 64K of memory costing well up to $100k (IBM System/3). I remember $10k hard drives. I remember $2k monitors... and you guys are complaining about $50 here or there for multi-gigabyte multi-gigahertz machines with terrabyte storage. Sigh. But you want to know the funniest thing? The way the computer industry is going, you are about to lose everything and you will never even realize what you had... until yeah, your devices won't be worth more than a couple bucks because they're no longer your tools, they're just devices used to spy on you in exchange for email, a very expensive phone service and angry birds.

Re:Nothing new here

[ByOhTek]

As you said, it's the OEMs, and yet you are blaming it on the chairmonkey.

Get the the version of windows you want on your pre-built machine, and either (a) uninstall the crapware (works well on my Toshibas), or get the cheapest version of windows offered, and install your own OS (either an OEM (buy a HD or memory upgrade) or Linux/BSD/Hackintosh-but-at-least-buy-a-licence-and-don't-be-an-asshole). Even if you go with a copy of Windows in the latter case, you aren't getting slathered with the hardware vendor's addware/trialware.

Re:Nothing new here

[Anonymous Coward]

Trapped face-up, under the urinal in Steve Ballmer's personal piss-dungeon.

if i had an account id give you all my points for that desrciption of using a windows machine
btw i left about the time dapper drake came out , now im running custom re-spins but i still remember xp and how locked down it had to be to run.
jeez i had forgotten about all that crap so long ago
PTFO

Re:Nothing new here

[ifrag]

You say you hate crapware and yet you're running Vista?

Out of date Microsoft hate. A fully updated Vista install with current drivers is roughly equivalent to Windows 7 these days.

Re:Nothing new here

[garutnivore]

Good points you raise there.

I'd also want to know about the shipping costs associated with any quoted prices. I've done my share of building systems. I know from experience that the strategy of seeking the cheapest cost on each and every part is easily undone by shipping fees.

===

Commenting now on the larger discussion, it's not always about getting the cheapest price. Building my own NAS cost me more money than buying an off-the-shelf solution, but what I got with my own build was better specs and much more flexibility than what vendors offered. I've performed experiments with it that I'm sure I would have had a hard time performing with an off-the-shelf solution, even with one whose firmware I could have replaced with somethig more palatable. There was no direct equivalent to what I ended up building.

Re:Nothing new here

[PsychoSlashDot]

Has something changed there? Because in the past Microsoft has been quite clear that the OEM license on your machine does not permit you to download a retail copy from wherever you want to install it, and being that the only Windows CD that comes with most machines is the restore CD (which is loaded with all the garbage) I'd love to hear how exactly you are supposed to legally acquire a clean copy of Windows to install on that machine that came with the OEM version on a restore CD (not an install CD)

So... download an OEM copy from wherever you want and install it. Because that results in a 100% legitimate licensed install. You're using the media you are permitted to use with the license you paid for. While the act of downloading the media is questionable and even potentially unsafe, it's quite justifiable and would be impractical to be prosecuted for.

Re:Nothing new here

[hawkinspeter]

Are you sure? I'm pretty sure that Vista is still classed as crapware for anyone who has to use computers professionally.

Re:Nothing new here

[MachineShedFred]

Because, much like servicing the brakes on your car, some people don't know how, and don't care to know how.

Changing brake pads and taking the rotors to get turned* only requires hand tools and isn't challenging. Yet there are countless shops that do endless streams of brake service.

*note that I am talking about disc brakes. Drum brakes are a whole different story, and are the spawn of the devil.

Re:Nothing new here

[methano]

$5K for a G3 Mac? That doesn't sound right. I bought a G3 Mac soon after they showed up. I'm thinking that with the monitor it was around $2.1-2.5K. I think your memory is a little fuzzy.

Re:Nothing new here

[Anonymous Coward]

Linux = crap. What was your point? To use shittier operating systems?

Re:Nothing new here

[zoward]

Yes, building your own is cheaper if your time is worthless.

...and the knowledge you gain about hardware, OS'es, etc, has its own value that offsets the cost of your time.

Re:Nothing new here

[jareth-0205]

The question is - why are people buying these computers?

Um... because not everyone in the world has the skills and time? Sure, you and me like to build our own, but most people want a PC that works out of the box (Having said that, the last two computers I bought were custom at-the-shop builds because I don't have the inclination to do it myself anymore). Don't those people deserve a computer that works properly?

Re:Nothing new here

[Anonymous Coward]

crutchy's husband agrees. His gay marriage is a happy one. Crutchy TRIED to wear the pants, but his "hubby" kept tearing them off (and we KNOW why, lmao).

Re:Nothing new here

[somersault]

Know any good resources for building your own ultrabook? I admit I haven't looked, but I don't think there are any options other than just buying one pre-made. Mine came installed with a whole load of crapware. Thankfully I got it through work, so I just bought Windows 7 Pro and nuked it with that.

I did try Mint as the base OS, but network drivers were missing since it was a brand new model (ASUS UX31, got it the day it came out). So now I run Linux in a VM.

Re:Nothing new here

[Rufty]

Windows has package management? Oh really? So which package is the MSHTML engine in, so I can rip it out. Oh, and while I'm at it, how about ripping out the entire Win32 subsystem and just leaving a CMD line? Sysinternals can do it. Debian can do it using the package management system. Linux packages *everything* - typically giving granularity of tens of thousands of packages. Windows? Maybe tens, if you're lucky. BTW, I liked the XPlite tool that did give some more package control over the system, is there anything like that for Win7?

Re:Nothing new here

[Rufty]

Or, if you had a decent package system, you could get a list of all files that *aren't* part of a package and trash them.

Re:Nothing new here

[Anonymous Coward]

^^^This is why I still prefer to buy from a local bricks-n-mortar store rather than online. I live on an island, I want a physical store with an actual physical salesperson to handle all and any issues and that I can strangle if they don't. The store can pack and RMA the fucking thing, I'm not doing it.

Re:Nothing new here

[Bengie]

Quality for quality, OEM is more expensive, but they usually cut out quality to make the average case work "fine" but cheaper.

I remember when I purchased my Dell. I tried to price it out on NewEgg and it was about 50% more expensive to build. Now, if I priced out a "high end" $1.5k+ system, then I would save money, but not on a low end $800 system.

Re:Nothing new here

[MachineShedFred]

In the beginnings of a technology, the marketers dictate what's cool. In the end, the market has it's say, and the market has no fear of derailing fads.

What's the adoption rate of 3D TV now?

Re:Nothing new here

[MachineShedFred]

Oh, you mean like the GTX 680 that I have in my 2009 Mac Pro, with absolutely no firmware updates necessary?

Get with the times, please.

Re:Nothing new here

[MachineShedFred]

Because every OEM-licensed Windows PC doesn't have a sticker on the side of it with the license key?

Oh, no wait, they all do. Every single one of them, as required by the OEM contract with Microsoft.

They may not come with the installation media, but the Internet fixes that.

Re:Nothing new here

[Runaway1956]

Yes, yes, and yes - and yes again!

The Telco's are pushing the stuff you're talking about, and people just run out and buy it.

My computer isn't as fast, or as nice, as some of the guys here are talking about. I can't afford to drop two grand on computer components. In fact, I recycle some of my components, only replacing them if/when they crap out. A DVD writer lasts me a long, long time - the one in the wife's current machine is a decade old.

Despite my relatively old, relatively crappy hardware - the machine is mine, mine, all mine. No crapware, no spyware, no bots, not trojans, almost no advertising, no trackware, I never see a popup, popunder, popout, or even Popeye.

And, since I don't run anything from Symantec or their competition, all my CPU cycles are mine.

It's adequate to play the games I like to play, while I have more browser windows open than I know what to do with, and I can do real work at the same time.

Re:Nothing new here

[VGPowerlord]

The computer I use most now is built out of the following things:

A used copy of Ghouls n Ghosts for the Sega Genesis.

So... does it die a lot?

Re:Nothing new here

[Anonymous Coward]

If it's Windows 7, here. http://www.w7forums.com/official-windows-7-sp1-iso-image-downloads-t12325.html

Punch your OEM key into one of those, job done.

Re:Nothing new here

[Anonymous Coward]

People who are already that technically competent already uninstall and purge all the crapware out of a Windows Box in less then half the time it takes you to install your Distro.

Total crap. Time for someone who knows what they are doing to removed typical Windows crapware: 1 hour minimum. Same to install Linux distro: 30mins.

Re:Nothing new here

[thoth]

I used to build my own computers. First one, with the help of a buddy, back in the mid 90's, an Intel Pentium P455C with a COAST module, Lian-Li case, and bunch of other stuff I don't remember anymore. Then I migrated to SFF systems from BioStar and Shuttle - I made 3 or 4 of those things, set them up for various things. Last one I made was from a barebones HP small server (can't recall the model) a year or two ago, and it is my file server. But it is getting replaced with a Drobo Mini. ;)

It was fun but there was overhead in construction and maintenance, not too bad overall, but the interest left me. I no longer enjoy poring over specs making sure everything I bought work together. I just want a decent physically small systems that are QUIET these days, and would rather fiddle with software development, or my Arduino kit, than play lego-snapin-construction to "build" a computer so I can do stuff I really want to do.

I'm not down on computer builders, it's fun and all, but I don't see it as a good tradeoff for my time. Honestly, the main benefit for me was the clean OS install and fancier video card (not having to buy some stock system to throw out the card for something better - but now, for the games I play, a reasonable video card is fine), and I can cut straight to that after getting a system, if I want.

Re:Nothing new here

[IndustrialComplex]

Using a Windows machine will always be like this: Trapped face-up, under the urinal in Steve Ballmer's personal piss-dungeon.

Last time I installed Windows I grabbed an old machine of mine, wiped it, and installed windows.

Last time I installed Ubuntu I grabbed an old machine of mine, wiped it, installed Ubuntu, and then looked into the process of deactivating/removing the Amazon lens stuff.

It's not a Windows thing, its a PC thing, I think we can just assume that we should continue consider the first step after unboxing a computer to be 'WIPE'.

Re:Nothing new here

[Gr8Apes]

First, the precursor to this trick is to make sure she bought something first... :)

Re:Nothing new here

[godefroi]

Trapped? Hardly. Repartition, format, install. But wait, you say, grandma can't do that! You're right, of course, but grandma also can't acquire and install Ubuntu.

Re:Nothing new here

[Anonymous Coward]

They make not only a higher quality product but don't include crapware

Crapware: some resource hogging software which I didn't ask to be installed and which tries to sell me something I don't want --> iTunes.

Just because Apple installs it themselves doesn't mean it's not crapware (unless you're a blinkered fanboi in which case I'll save you the time: "Apple does not install crapware, therefore by definition iTunes is not crapware").

Re:Nothing new here

[JDG1980]

Show me someone who can build a 1.37-inch-thick 27" touchscreen all-in-one PC "in an afternoon" and I'll show you someone who works for Acer.

Why would you need or even want a touchscreen on a PC? The only systems where these have any real utility is in special-purpose embedded applications like POS terminals, self-check units, and ATMs (yes, some of these are Windows PCs).

Re:Nothing new here

[kokojie]

Actually I really prefer they load the PC with as much crapware as they can, so my total buy price gets subsidized. It's a piece of cake to remove them. I'd rather receive a crap loaded PC for $100 less, than paying more for a clean PC.

Re:Nothing new here

[mcgrew]

It's cheaper to buy a bare-bones pre-assembled PC with mobo, CPU, memory already installed. No need to buy a new mouse or keyboard, and just transfer your old hard drive to it, which takes far less time than moving all your data to the new machine. also, it has the added time saver of not having to remove MS crapware and third party toolbars and other third party crapware.

Re:Nothing new here

[cez]

Dual Core E450 Hudson ASUS Mobo IGP... 2 3TB Cavalier Green Drives in a ZFS Raid Mirror, 60 Gb SSD 8 Gb Ram all in a micro ATX HTPC case $500 kickass low-power green redundant storage array with HDMI Out and Lightscrivbe DVD burner .... and did I mention 3 TB redundant mirrored storage?

Re:Nothing new here

[spd_rcr]

I just spend the long weekend shopping for a new laptop for my wife. Overpaying for the 'features' that will make her happy is a bit like having your fingernails ripped out, but it's still less painful than spending the next 4-5 years listening to how crappy her laptop is.

First time I've ever bought a Sony, and if you spend the extra $30 to upgrade to Windows 8 Pro, they'll let you select a clean install without any crapware. I'll be throwing an SSD in anyhow, so I saved the $30, but I think it's a fair compromise on the crapware front. Sony was the only company offering a sub-$1000 notebook with a touchscreen resolution greater than 1366x768. I think that's a bigger travesty than the crapware issue. It takes 15 minutes (not including updates) to install Windows (with an SSD and a quick thumbdrive), but you're never going to fix a cheap screen !

Re:Nothing new here

[mcgrew]

well, maybe your real problem isn't that you need a new computer, but that you need to grow a pair so that you don't feel the need to justify everything to your wife like she's your mother.

I can see that you've either never been married (you're young, I see, from your lack of capitalization) or have been married several times and just don't learn (also shows up by your refusal to use the shift key; I know 40 year olds who act like teenagers).

Re:Nothing new here

[Psyborgue]

Not really true anymore. You can legitimately download Windows 7 and 8 images straight from MS. They used to be dicks about it but have gotten a lot better. All you need then is a legit license key, which you should have on a sticker somewhere. Plus with Windows 8, they're allowing you to upgrade from OEM license keys. You enter the number off the bottom of that old laptop, for example, and voila! Windows 8 Pro license key. The installer then downloads an images and makes you a usb key or whatever. I'm hardly a MS fan, but they've gotten a lot better, mostly due to competition.

Re:Nothing new here

[Psyborgue]

You can download an iso straight from ms and then use the key. You can also upgrade to Win 8 Pro with an OEM key. Both of these things are legal.

Re:Nothing new here

[Pope]

Uptime is irrelevant for the home user. No one cares.

Re:Nothing new here

[wvmarle]

You don't have to use the package manager to install software, crapware likely will use their own installer and be pretty hard to remove (though should be trivial to disable if you know where to look). It's just convenient to stick to your package manager.

Re:Nothing new here

[wvmarle]

Grab a copy from a reliable source (The Pirate Bay for example - no kidding - check the comments - enough people to check on it to make sure it's OK), then activate it with your official, paid for key.

One key, one installation.

Any problem there?

Re:Nothing new here

[Anonymous Coward]

Shovelware != malware. You can uninstall, cleanly, the junk included in any OEM build. It takes third party tools to remove all the remnants, but don't act as if it's impossible.

Re:Nothing new here

[jon3k]

Are you referring to Mac OS X when you say "rollig hamster ball" ?

Re:Nothing new here

[AaronLS]

Look at Android(a Linux based OS) and all the bloatware you get with carrier provided phones. You can't even uninstall most of it, and the OS itself is often modified in ways that make me sick. Only those savvy enough to flash an alternate ROM can resolve these problems. So it has nothing to do with Windows.

You are just going off on a Windows bashing tangent that has nothing to do with bloatware. Advocating for free windows has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. As far as application level DRM, that already can and does exist in some Linux applications.

Security holes (not spelled wholes) have affected Linux which were around for weeks before patched and required admins to workaround/hack to plug in the meantime.

These things exist in Linux to some degree or another, and would be on par with Windows if it had the same size user base, and Android is proof of that.

Re:Nothing new here

[AaronLS]

Smashing ignorance like a boss.

I've found Windows 7 to be a very clean OS IMO.

Most Linux distros come with all kinds of UI enhancements that are inconsistent from release to release and are just junk fluff IMO. The only consistency you can get is at the command line, and even then from distro to distro you get different shells.

I'm not saying one or the other is better. Both OS's are victims of people adding all kinds of extra apps and thinking "hey this is cool" instead of going for a polished professional OS. Windows 7 IMO has gone the farthest in the direction of usability/stability of desktop OS's I've used. I still have yet to find a Linux distro that I feel comfortable recommended to family/friends.

Re:Nothing new here

[green1]

They certainly don't make that easy to find on the microsoft website... and yet the "average" user is supposed to be able to find and do that? hardly likely.

Re:Nothing new here

[green1]

Show me where to find legal and trustworthy download links to MS software. and as this is supposed to be easy for the average user to do to get a clean install, please show the links from Microsoft's website to these downloads.

Re:Nothing new here

[green1]

As much as I don't like Windows, I'm not arguing about what the base OS includes. The problem is that when you buy a new PC from any major brand, you don't get the OS install disks, or a clean install. You get a whole lot of garbage pre-loaded by the OEM. They also don't include install disks, only restore disks, so cleaning is difficult.

At least with Linux, if the OEM messes with it, you can just download the original un-modified version from your favourite distro's website and install. Microsoft hardly has easy download links on their main webpage.

Re:Nothing new here

[green1]

That's an interesting idea... is there any package manager that actually does this? and how does it differentiate between what's not in a package and is an installed program, vs what's not in a package because it's a user's personal files or what not?

Of course I would expect an OEM to play really dirty and simply not install "base operating system" package, but instead install "base operating system with all our crapware pre-loaded" package (which happens to have a name that looks the same as the first one). Sure you CAN remove it, but then you're left unbootable unless you also re-installed the real one at the same time.

It's back to the point that you CAN remove it, but it will never be "easy" the manufacturers gain too much through this stuff.

Of course your best bet is always to simply install your own OS on any new machine, then you always know what your starting point is.

Re:Nothing new here

[lgw]

You conflating OS components with applications. Fair enough: plenty of "internal" WIndows bits aren't packages. So what? Why do you care, beyond geek OCD? I still see people complaining "OMG, I can't remove this service and it's using 100K of memory!" on 12GB systems - boggles my mind.

Re:Nothing new here

[Rufty]

Why should OS components be treated differently from applications - they are applications themselves. Microsoft got in trouble in court over that with IE. And dozens of processes running that I don't need. Virus-bait crapware. LitePC's embedded 98 on a PC/104 card made for a sweet and user familiar info kiosk. But linux does that much better. Because it's package manager isn't a toy.

Re:Nothing new here

[Rufty]

rpm -v and debsums will get you quite a bit of the way there. Only time I've had to use that in anger was after a "make install" went crazy. There's some debian tool for checking what an install does, but since that does a "before and after" that won't work with crapware. Or the base-os+crap package. Yeah, clean install is always best.

Re:Nothing new here

[steelfood]

It's not just looks. Space is also at a premium in many places. To state the obvious, having one box that's the monitor and PC takes up less space than having a monitor and a separate mid-tower or even desktop.

Re:Nothing new here

[mr_lizard13]

Lots of reasons.

Time.
Convenience.
Not everyone gets a boner at the thought of building a PC.
Most home-builds look... well, home-built.

I can build my own but choose not to, for these and many other reasons.

Re:Nothing new here

[lister king of smeg]

in android it is the fault of the phone manufacturers not wanting to patch their products in hopes that you will cave in and buy another one, also their haven't been any viruses for android that I am aware of, for android though their have been numerous Trojans though but those require the user to install them and the user is the biggest security whole in all systems and one they can not be patched. besides I wasn't talking about phone system but desktops (though with windows 8 i can see the source of your confusion). GNU/Linux/Xorg is to android as FreeBSD is to iOS.

Re:Nothing new here

[mcgrew]

As is Suse, kubuntu, and Mandriva. Hell, I haven't tried Suse in ten years and it was easier than Windows is now. Well, maybe not easier, just less annoying; none are very hard.

Re:Nothing new here

[jedidiah]

The only real "burden" here is having a clue. If you don't have a clue then the salesman at Best Buy or the Apple Store will simply take advantage of you. It's the same as if a car salesman thinks you're an idiot. There is really no glory in being an idiot.

If you can't pick your parts you can't know whether or not the latest Apple product is a turd.

Re:Nothing new here

[jedidiah]

Your post is really funny considering you specifically mention Seagate.

The "I don't want to be bothered" experience is not very compatible with components that are notoriously failure prone. It's very easy to find out what those are.

To think, there was a time when Consumer Reports specials ran on HBO. I suppose that was before the Idiocracy.

Re:Nothing new here

[Sir_Sri]

not in usability it isn't.

Windows 7 and windows Vista are basically the OS on the backend. And it gets the job done. The problem is all about useability and Vista is inferior to 7, (incidentally, 8 is inferior to 7 as well).

Re:Nothing new here

[jedidiah]

My "home builds" all look as good or as bad as the case I bought. I can spend as little money on this or as much as I want. It can be as stylish as any Apple product or I could not bother with that at all.

Plus I can have it all done for my by someone else. The web is full of such vendors. It has always been this way.

My first 486 was "built" exactly the same way.

Except it was a magazine ad rather than a website.

Re:Nothing new here

[Cinder6]

I find building PCs to be an enjoyable, even cathartic experience. Regardless, the system I built on Saturday took only an hour to assemble. I watched some TV while doing it. Not every second of your waking life needs to be about 100% productivity.

Re:Nothing new here

[Sir_Sri]

Indeed it is. Although assembling your own computer is more of a 1 month of post high school college training level than say, building your own car which is more like a year worth.

Re:Nothing new here

[lgw]

And dozens of processes running that I don't need.

And? Again, why do you care beyond geek OCD? I hear "I must must must control every running process and make it exactly like I want it to be" from geeks, but there are drugs for OCD now. Win 2008 (server) runs a fairly small set of components by defaut (e.g., the default install doesn't have audio), and the majority of OS components are independently selectable. Win 2012 is quite a barebones default.

Again, the package manager in modern Windows is fine. How many or how few OS components actually use that pacakge manager is a different question.

Re:Nothing new here

[Anonymous Coward]

You sir are an idiot, you would pay more not to have a touch screen (you could just not use it, and save the money). Besides the touch screens on all in ones are only for occasional brief use any way (it's not to replace the mouse or anything).

Re:Nothing new here

[davydagger]

same with ubuntu. Now for someone with no tech skills. Most people simply can't/don't want to do it, either way.

Then fix it for the next 2 years. Most people do not have the tech skills to fix a computer for the initial two years

Re:Nothing new here

[chrismcb]

In an afternoon, a guy can build an equivalent computer from components, install his favorite OS, and be ready to start installing all his required software in the morning.

Because people don't want to do that. Your average user does not want to select and then build a computer from components.

Re:Nothing new here

[PsychoSlashDot]

Not free I will grant, but you can use this link: https://om.one.microsoft.com/opa/Validation.aspx?StoreID=b19f4ce9-dfcb-44e4-9abe-1c9dfbad47d0&LocaleCode=en-us&JavaScriptOn=yes

Not that the average user you reference has any business reinstalling their O/S. With extra steps like needing chipset drivers, Joe Average doesn't have the resources or experience to do the job. If they do, they're not average.

Final comment... a few minutes of Google searching results in MD5/SHA hashes for known MS media. So... grabbing ISOs from non-MS sites isn't as dangerous as it seems.

Re:Nothing new here

[Anonymous Coward]

If I open the case, yeah. I feel like half the time I open the case the magician pops out and . . . well it's all down hill from there. ;)

Re:Nothing new here

[bingoUV]

Practically, I agree with you as pre-built have horrible PSUs. I've not had trouble with pre-built's RAM, but that could happen too, I guess.

But theoretically, I don't think "they must pay their employees and profit from sales" explains it. They must be getting much better deals on the same hardware than retail shoppers would. Their Windows costs are negligible, or even negative because of the crapware. Their hardware shouldn't suck so much, but it does.

Re:Nothing new here

[bingoUV]

so I can add the company name to the list of people to avoid

Microsoft

Re:Nothing new here

[zwarte piet]

Crapware is a thing from the big pc manufacturers. You can also buy a ready made pc from a small shop, who build them for you. These little shops are often run by pc ethusiasts, who can give you advice on what to choose. The one I know, even gives you the option no os, os on disc or preinstalled. No crapware, just an oem version of win7.

Re:Nothing new here

[Rufty]

And! Again! With the ad hominem insults about OCD! If there was any substance to your claims you wouldn't need to try personal attacks. Windows one-size-will-fit-everyone approach does not mean that Windows package management is any good. Have a look at this for a real package manager, and that's from 1997.

Re:Nothing new here

[Gr8Apes]

I'd call you an idiot, but you posted AC, so there's a chance you may not be a complete idiot.

That said, there's at least a small group of people that prefer no fingerprint smudges on their screens, especially when they are working with graphics, as those smudges tend to blur details. Others just prefer to have clean screens regardless (I fall into both camps) Lastly, your reading comprehension is lacking, as is your ability to research even the most obvious facts - the iMac is cheaper than the touch screen Asus, and for me not having a touch screen, and hence not having any temptation for a moron such as yourself to touch it is worth several hundred extra dollars to me, i.e., raising the value of the iMac, over the Asus even more.

I take it back - you are an idiot.

Re:Nothing new here

[cthulhu11]

When something goes wrong with that system, however, he's going to be knocking on your door to fix it, not a system vendor's. If it smokes and loses his PR0N^H^H^H^Hdata the blame will be on you, not on Dell/Apple/Asus/etc. Don't underestimate the costs there.

Re:Nothing new here

[crutchy]

poor APK... sucks to be him :)

Re:Nothing new here

[crutchy]

hey i can't help it if i'm just that irresistable

Re:Nothing new here

[Anonymous Coward]

seems you can't tell the truth crutchy http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3261471&cid=42125597

Re:Nothing new here

[Anonymous Coward]

Rather be apk than you caught in your lies crutchy http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3261471&cid=42125597

Re:Nothing new here

[lsatenstein]

This is the OEM business model. Razor-thin manufacturing hardware margins mean that there's a HUGE department that does nothing but inbound deals for software product placement - this is how they get profitability. Don't expect much change. Even with a premium PC line, they won't turn down these dollars thrust upon them from Symantec, and the online-game-of-the-week. Be sure, all of this is instrumented with web-bugs and behavior-tracking galore.

Using a Windows machine will always be like this: Trapped face-up, under the urinal in Steve Ballmer's personal piss-dungeon.

There is no razor thin problem. The problem is that whil bank interest pays less than 2%, corps want at least 50% net profit.
Before global economy, a company that made a net of 15% was doing extremely well. A company that made net 5% was doing better than ok.

We have been brainwashed to paying $6.00 for a $2.00 item. The extra profit is to finance expansion of new brick stores. You are paying for the next Big Box store, rather than that store having a reasonable mortgage and having it cover those costs from store profits.

I guess I am in dreamworld.

Re:Nothing new here

[Jeremiah Cornelius]

You are not paying for stores - or any other significant re-investment in the business.

You are paying for the 500:1 differential ratio of CEO salary and compensation from the average employee.

Re:Nothing new here

[lsatenstein]

You are not paying for stores - or any other significant re-investment in the business.

You are paying for the 500:1 differential ratio of CEO salary and compensation from the average employee.

Just as bad. I am in the 99% who pay for the 1%. There are those in the 1% who complain they are paying for the 0.1%

Re:Nothing new here

[Jeremiah Cornelius]

Save the Earth.
Assassinate a CEO.

Re:Nothing new here

[Anonymous Coward]

Seems like you haven't realised that marrying someone involves entering a partnership wherein many decisions, including relatively large financial ones, become joint decisions.

With your attitude, it seems like you probably never will. Good luck with that.

Re:Nothing new here

[Smauler]

I do, because I don't turn off my PC. I'm a home user.

Re:Nothing new here

[Smauler]

Yes... that's why I bought OEM and had 2100 hours of uptime. After my reboot I downloaded a binary blob from nvidia to update my graphics drivers, and rebooted again (because obviously there were loads of updates during that uptime). I can forsee another 2100 hours of uptime now.

My system isn't special. I abuse it all the time. It just works. I play games.

Re:Nothing new here

[Smauler]

I built the system myself - Vista OEM when it came out, which had big problems installing. Hardware-wise, I've replaced one HDD which died, and upgraded the graphics card. I'm running Skyrim at high detail 1920*1200 at a good FPS. Any system which has over 1000 hours uptime and runs fine is a good system IMO.... your standards may vary.

Re:Nothing new here

[crutchy]

i merely used similar "terminology" as the post i was replying to... so if you think i had a "shit fit", you're admitting you had one before me

but i don't blame you because it must suck being wrong all the time and not even being able to find a simple python bug (even when its pointed out to you numerous times)

Re:Nothing new here

[crutchy]

caught in your lies

no, actually i was telling the truth

just about everything else you say is easily proven lies (especially about linux; often merely reading the article that you link to reveals your lies)... pot calling the kettle black much?

you've never justify anything you say... hence why nobody likes you... poor apk can't find bugs or friends, and he sucks at delphi as well (just looking at his interface design stinks of noob)... sucks to be apk

Re:Nothing new here

[crutchy]

"shit fit"? please... i used similar theme to the message i was replying to, which means you're actually admitting YOU had a shit fit before me

just because you don't believe me doesn't mean its not true, and indicating my professional status was part of a reply to a thread so it must be taken into context with that thread.... in which justification was not required (i probably didn't even have to indicate my professional status so it doesn't really matter either way).

unfortunately (for anyone else reading this), apk has an apparently uncontrollable tendency to ignore context and spread his lies and filth all over slashdot (as you may already be well aware of). he is slashdot's most infamous troll, and is known for destroying entire conversations with his rediculous pastes containing links to articles that he has never understood or even read fully (often the articles he links to don't actually support the claims he makes).

apk's spew of garbage, as much as it can be quite entertaining, is still garbage and should not be taken seriously. simply reading his posts will probably make this pretty obvious anyway because his posts read like they're written by somone in grade school.

he tries his best to spread FUD about linux and open source (he tries soooo hard with all his repetitious pasting) but alas nobody really cares or even reads it all so even his FUD isn't FUD because nobody takes it seriously. he's like a toothless tiger, desperate for credibility and acknowledgement in a forum where everyone knows how rediculous, childish and stupid he is because he continually displays evidence of it in the permant record that is /.

anyway, if you ever come across his garbage in threads, don't be too concerned to say "hi douchebag, fixed that python bug yet?".

cheers

Re:Nothing new here

[Anonymous Coward]

You prove you have no professional programming status. Now go get your shinebox.

Re:Nothing new here

[Anonymous Coward]

You can't even prove you're a professional programmer noob. Quit projecting your own faults onto others too.

Re:Nothing new here

[Anonymous Coward]

You can't prove you're a professional programmer and that's that noob. We don't listen to noobs that talk a good game but can't back it up.

Re:Nothing new here

[Anonymous Coward]

Big shit fit there crutch. Prove you're a professional programmer like you said you are. It'll never happen. Your foaming at the mouth ravings here prove it all when you should just show professional work you've actually done instead. Your reaction show it all.

Re:Nothing new here

[Anonymous Coward]

if you weren't such a dipshit you might realise that a lot of professional code isn't published outside the organisation for which it is developed, and almost NO code is releasable, so even if i did want to share some of my code with you (why would i?) i couldn't because i would be in violation of my employment contract. try again moron

Re:Nothing new here

[Anonymous Coward]

quit projecting your stupidity

OEMs get paid tons of money for preinstalls

[Anonymous Coward]

This is news? OEMs get paid a lot of money for preinstalled crapware. As the recession drags on, it's hardly surprising that they continue to load on as much as they can get away with.

Re:OEMs get paid tons of money for preinstalls

[postbigbang]

The price of the machine wasn't jacked up because of the TrialWare, but the price seems unreasonably high, given so much competition at a lower price.

The extra software gives the machine perceived value, incorrect as that may be. Lots of trialware that won't last long and makes revenues for everyone not-the-retailer.

But then, the latest loads of Ubuntu have all sorts of crazyware, albeit not in the trial form. There are legacy Unix/Linux sillyness that most consumers will never, ever touch. No one pays an OEM to put it on a machine (oh, wait, Amazon placement for search???) when Linux is installed, but most every page you access these days has some sort of ad, or tracker, or link-to-a-good-buddy.

I think the crapware complaint is over-rated.

Re:OEMs get paid tons of money for preinstalls

[lightknight]

"The extra software gives the machine perceived value, incorrect as that may be." -> Indeed, I've noticed a lot of this going around, in all walks of life. Somewhere along the line, it became acceptable to sell people a lie, telling them that a liability was an asset.

Take a look at the various healthcare / phone plans to see what I mean. I need to hire a lawyer to get through some of these.

"2 GB data cap! For all your data needs!" -> Lol, no.
"$100 towards visual hardware, once every two years!" -> OMFG, no.

 

Re:OEMs get paid tons of money for preinstalls

[jodido]

I agree that the crapware complaint is overrated, also because it's really not that big a deal to get rid of it, although I will admit that most people probably don't know how. On the other hand those "most people" probably aren't that bothered by it because they probably don't know any better. It's really more of an esthetic or moral problem than a performance problem, though, isn't it? I mean we're all bothered by it because we're professionals but crapware (a lot of it, admittedly not all of it) has little or no impact on how the machine operates.

Re:OEMs get paid tons of money for preinstalls

[postbigbang]

It's the latest trend and meme to remove it, or reduce it, or vilify it. Your post has already been down-modded, an indicator of the irrational vehemence.

Get a signature PC

[recoiledsnake]

http://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msstore/html/pbPage.MicrosoftSignature

Vizio PCs dont have any crapware either.

What has this got to do with Windows 8?

If MS stopped OEMs from bundling Google toolbar, everyone here will be crying antitrust.

You want MS to make Windows a closed platform like iOS?

Freedom is not free.

Re:Get a signature PC

[Ksevio]

But according to TFA, that costs "a crazy $99"

Re:Get a signature PC

[graphius]

I had to install some medical software on a new laptop* for a client. After dealing with many problems, I still had an amateur OS with skype, weather, stock quotes and other totally irrelevant crap. Forget about the third party crapware, Win8 is built around crapware...
Windows 8 is NOT designed for serious work.

*Yes they supplied the laptop, if I had my way, it would have been Win7.

Re:Get a signature PC

[Anonymous Coward]

After dealing with many problems, I still had an amateur OS with skype, weather, stock quotes and other totally irrelevant crap.

Skype doesn't come pre-installed, so you had to volitionally install it from the store. Moreover, even the pre-installed metro apps can be un-installed with two mouse clicks from the start screen, so if you were left with those you can't have been too worried about them.

Re:Get a signature PC

[Anonymous Coward]

That's the cost to fix a PC that the OEMs already messed up. All PCs bought from the Microsoft Store come crapware-free.

Re:Get a signature PC

[ad0gg]

I don't care if OEMs bundle stuff, MS should a single click button on their OS that returns it to a pristine state.

Re:Get a signature PC

[Anonymous Coward]

Signature applies to all computers bought from the Microsoft Store, it's not an option ($99 or otherwise).

They used to have a $99/year upgrade option called "Signature Premium" which included training and extra support, I think that has more or less been replaced with "Assure" which is the extra support without the training.

Re:Get a signature PC

[MaWeiTao]

No offense, but I've got some serious doubts about your abilities as an IT expert. I just rolled over from my Mac to the PC on which I recently installed Windows 8 and I can uninstall every single app I tried, including weather, stocks messenger and even email. Not only that, but I just have to right-click on the damn tile and the option is right there.

I'm also curious to know what your basis is for defining Windows 8 as an amateur OS. What makes it less refined than the multitude of crappy open sources OS's available? Is a mature OS defined by the lack of integration, or the need to hunt for an ideal distro?

As far as I'm concerned Windows 8 is specifically suited to anyone who has to do serious work. The start screen offers you a direct path to your apps without having to wade through a clutter of irrelevant secondary apps or confusing user-unfriendly utilities. I takes a basic principle that has enable Apple to be successful, but takes it the next step by offering even better integration with a multitude of content. I figured Windows 8 would make it even easier to manage users.

It's unfortunate that crapware continues to be a problem given that it's long been Windows' biggest detriment.

Re:Get a signature PC

[bmo]

For once I agree with RS.

>what has this to do with W8

Nothing.

Bad journalism is bad journalism.

--
BMO

Re:Get a signature PC

[Zero__Kelvin]

"I'm also curious to know what your basis is for defining Windows 8 as an amateur OS."

Simple ... because every version of Windows that has ever been released is an amateur OS.

" What makes it less refined than the multitude of crappy open sources OS's available?"

What OS would that be? It seems like you have never heard of Linux, FreeBSD, NetBSD, or OpenBSD, since all of those are far superior to Windows in every way unless you're one of the idiots who think computers are for playing games.

"It's unfortunate that crapware continues to be a problem given that it's long been Windows' biggest detriment."

I've got news for you, but as abhorrent as crapware is, it is far from being Windows "biggest detriment".

Re:Get a signature PC

[Billly Gates]

With the Microsoft Store they are doing just that. I hate Windows 8 but I thought it was cool that I could get a whole system plus the beautiful BING backgrounds. I run Windows as my host OS mostly and I know linux users reading this wont agree and wipe the OS regardless but I feel a whole market is available and not just hte business market which has an IT staff with custom clean images (usually very outdated).

It is nice to know Vizio did not fall for it. I was thinking of getting them or a Samsung as my next laptop when I have more money. OEMs are obsessed with getting ahead by staying behind and cutting costs. They lost attract by getting ahead by actually staying ahead. I hope the Surface scares them in making something quality like apple.

Re:Get a signature PC

[jibjibjib]

There is hardware and software which is supported on Windows but has less support, or lower performance, or doesn't work at all, on the other operating systems you mentioned.

This means that for some applications, Windows is superior. Even if Windows is crap, it's simply not true to claim that another OS is "far superior to Windows in every way".

Re:Get a signature PC

[Billly Gates]

I wouldn't bash him as an IT expert. Many Atom chipsets are not compatible with Windows 7. Skpe is a great program that is usefull and what MS wanted in Netmeeting that never really took off.

I would love to format and put windows 7 on all devices but its touch screen support was crippled by Sinsosky who wanted Windows 8. Maybe the doctors in the GP post wanted tablets?

Windows 8 has been shown by a top usability expert to be horrible! I used to run it but went back to Windows 7. Not because I was a retard who hated change and refused to learn to do things the right way, but because it was counter productive for my desktop and my ati graphics only supported WDDm 1.1 and not 1.2 and was crippled on my laptop. It takes a lot to retrain and to get apps medically certified! Clicking like a retard in the upper left hand corner of the screen for the other apps is counter productive compared to just using Aero peak in the Windows 7 task bar. It was very poorly done and and had a very very short time span between demo and freezing without years to develop. After April the team had 2 months to make it stable as Sinsosky wanted to release it FAST. Windows 95 in comparison had 2 years.

The last client I had at a hospital in Alaska still had XP and wiped the IWndows 7 desktops as late as early 2011 because the apps were not certifed. Shit they had SP 2 not even Sp 3!! The grandparent did mention the medical industry right? over a network.

Windows 7 is better in many areas just like aging XP was when Vista came out. I used Vista because I had school and got used to the instant search but on a corporate network I could see XP being a far supperior option in many areas.

Re:Get a signature PC

[davydagger]

windows is not an "open" platform.

I'd like if they released full specs on the win32/64 api, and directx 10/11, and I couldn't give a damn if they didn't release a line of code.

that is all.

Re:Get a signature PC

[graphius]

OK, I did not give the full story, I was called in for the final tweaking of the system. Unfortunately both Windows and the preinstalled antivirus (Avant Free) did an update and the "Professional" system started bluescreening. Yes, the update brought down the entire system. (and that damn smiley face is there just to piss people off.... ;) WTF) It did take me longer than I would expect to narrow down the problem, restore the system, uninstall the updates, uninstall the antivirus, redo the windows updates, and then get on to the job I was hired to do, add an extra monitor and plug in the printer.

And no, the start screen is a fucked up abomination. Don't get me started on the picture viewer, the convoluted way safe mode has been crippled, or the help screens that keep saying swipe here to continue....

PS. No I am not an IT expert. I prefer to use an easier system like Mint Debian Edition with a KDE desktop.

Re:Get a signature PC

[Zero__Kelvin]

"There is hardware and software which is supported on Windows but has less support, or lower performance, or doesn't work at all, on the other operating systems you mentioned."

I agree with you, but you left out the fact that one of those "applications" is Photoshop and the other 100,000 of them are what is commonly referred to these days as malware. Go ahead and try to name an actual application that "is supported on Windows but has less support, or lower performance, or doesn't work at all, on the other operating systems ", then I'll tell you the better alternative in the Open Source domain. ( I do agree that if you are in the desktop publishing business GIMP may not be a suitable substitute for Photoshop, though for 99% of people who need to do graphics design and editing GIMP indeed serves as a fine replacement.)

Re:Get a signature PC

[jamstar7]

After dealing with many problems, I still had an amateur OS with skype, weather, stock quotes and other totally irrelevant crap.

Skype doesn't come pre-installed, so you had to volitionally install it from the store. Moreover, even the pre-installed metro apps can be un-installed with two mouse clicks from the start screen, so if you were left with those you can't have been too worried about them.

Really?

Re:Get a signature PC

[LordLimecat]

Im pretty sure Windows 8 has that. Im pretty sure thats one of its selling points, actually.

Re:Get a signature PC

[flyingfsck]

If you do a RedHat kickstart memory stick right, then you don't even have to click a single button.

Re:Get a signature PC

[Anonymous Coward]

laptop* for a client. .. many problems

Those two seem to go hand in hand. If you want to be very affraid, see the firewall rules after installing everything. The update machanism of some of the Store apps may brake also randomly.
  Fortunately the resource sharing and handling seems to work significantly better during rendering and other tasks in my desktop/workstation compared to the previous version. The inards are good, the outturds are something which can be described as Harry Potter or Karate Kid user interface (magic wand, wax on-wax off movements with the mouse). A good thing is that I could provide a smaller set of tiles or icons for the users I'm supporting compared to the long start menu of the previous version.

Re:Get a signature PC

[TCPhotography]

LabVIEW.

Yes, there are linux and OSX versions, but they do not support the full toolkit, drivers, and modules set that the windows version supports.

I know it's a rather specialized piece of software, but it does exist (and I do use it).

Re:Get a signature PC

[shutdown -p now]

Yes, really. Regardless of Skype being a division of MS now, Skype app is still not preinstalled on Win8, and all preinstalled Win8 apps (like Mail or News) can be uninstalled.

Re:Get a signature PC

[shutdown -p now]

Win8 has a "Reset" feature, but it basically reinstalls the OS from the image that OEM has packaged, so it'll have all the same crap that you've had on first run. It's point is to bring the PC to its initial state prior to user interaction, not to provide a clean Windows install.

Re:Get a signature PC

[les lazar]

A few examples of software supported only by Windows: AutoCAD (primarily 2D drafting/design) Inventor (3D modeling/design) LaCerte (US tax return preparation) I'm sure that there are many more examples of specific applications that are supported only in a Windows environment. If you need to use one of these for the unique functionality or for compatibility with others in your development chain, you are stuck. Les

Re:Get a signature PC

[Dahamma]

Which is funny because it could have very easily been spun in the opposite direction. How about "save $99 to accept preloaded trial software." With that position everyone would be talking about how great a deal it is just to delete a few crappy trial apps.

And given how many stupid things the PC using masses already download (let's face it, if they didn't spyware would not exist) to get "coupons", "enter a drawing for a free iPad", whatever - I'm sure a lot of people would be happy for that $99 savings. Microsoft/OEMs just made yet another brain-dead marketing call...

Re:Get a signature PC

[Dahamma]

Skype doesn't come pre-installed, so you had to volitionally install it from the store.

Nope, that's not true.

"Skype for Windows 8 will be in the Windows Store on October 26, the day Windows 8 and its ARM-based sibling, Windows RT, are generally available. Skype for Windows 8 also will be preinstalled on "the top 12 Windows OEMs' machines," Skype officials said."

http://www.zdnet.com/microsofts-skype-for-windows-8-to-launch-october-26-7000006145/

Re:Get a signature PC

[Zero__Kelvin]

You have to look pretty hard at particular niche markets to find examples, as you have shown. That being said, there are numerous alternatives, though much like Photoshop there will certainly be some who just have to use AutoCAD. I've never heard of LaCerte, but it most likely runs just fine on Linux using Wine or Crossover.

Re:Get a signature PC

[Zero__Kelvin]

Great. Now for homework try your Google-fu to see all the alternatives to the LabVIEW approach. I've used both, and LabVIEW is far inferior to what can be done with a Linux system.

Re:Get a signature PC

[Wingman 5]

How about AutoCAD too? Heck almost all products from Autodesk, there is a FOSS equivalent but it is severely lacking. You can't get a support contract for 99% of the FOSS equivalents so when you do have a issue with the software you can't get it resolved nearly as fast.

Re:Get a signature PC

[aztracker1]

Going to jump in here.. even though it runs on Mono... I'd say Pinta is probably the best PS substitute for *most* people's needs.. it's not the all-in though... for windows, I'd do Paint.Net ... I used to be a Paint Shop Pro fan until Corel bought out Jasc. For now, if it's basic photo editing tasks, Paint.Net or even Picasa work well enough for me... If you need the 800# gorilla, Photoshop has no equal right now.

Re:Get a signature PC

[lightknight]

Visual Studio.

Find me an IDE running on open source that has a working version of Intellisense. No, Eclipse / NetBeans have crappy versions.

Re:Get a signature PC

[TCPhotography]

Great. Now for homework try your Google-fu to see all the alternatives to the LabVIEW approach. I've used both, and LabVIEW is far inferior to what can be done with a Linux system.

Go ahead and try to name an actual application that "is supported on Windows but has less support, or lower performance, or doesn't work at all, on the other operating systems ", then I'll tell you the better alternative in the Open Source domain. ( I do agree that if you are in the desktop publishing business GIMP may not be a suitable substitute for Photoshop, though for 99% of people who need to do graphics design and editing GIMP indeed serves as a fine replacement.)

I'm waiting for you to provide 'the better alternative' like you said you would.

I've mentioned this before, but when you have entire ecosystems built on Windows/Office it can be exceptionally difficult to migrate to open source. You have to make sure everything works or you will have people who will block the migration.

If you want another program, then SolidWorks.

Re:Get a signature PC

[Necroloth]

99% of people who need to do graphics design and editing GIMP indeed serves as a fine replacement ... 99% of what size of population of users? How many are that 1%? Also, I don't understand your point, you clearly point out that there are programs better supported in Windows but still say all of those are far superior to Windows in every way

Additionally, what's with the statement: unless you're one of the idiots who think computers are for playing games ... please tell me what computer games are supposed to be played on...

Re:Get a signature PC

[TheRaven64]

It's a problem for Microsoft though. They'd give a better impression of Windows without all of this crap, but they'd also make Windows machines cost more. Dell's problem with shipping Linux machines was that they actually got more from the crapware than the cost of the Windows license, so installing Linux instead of Windows actually cost them more. If Microsoft banned this kind of thing in the OEM license agreement, then suddenly Linux would be $50 or so cheaper than Windows, which makes a big difference on a $300 laptop. But if they keep allowing it, then people say that their Windows machine is slow and full of unstable crap that has nothing at all to do with Windows. I guess their best strategy would be to identify the worst of the crap and pay the companies responsible to port it to Linux...

Re:Get a signature PC

[GeorgeMonroy]

They do. It is called refresh and you can even start it from the Windows 8 UI.

Re:Get a signature PC

[gfxguy]

The windows 7 desktops I got from Acer for my wife and daughter didn't even come with recovery discs, they highly recommended you make one yourself... I think I have like 4 or 5 DVDs for each box. Unbelievable.

So, I'm wondering if you can't do the same with Windows 8 - remove the crapware, clean the registry (if possible), then make recovery discs based on that configuration. Anybody know?

Re:Get a signature PC

[Zero__Kelvin]

"you clearly point out that there are programs better supported in Windows"

The fact that Microsoft has succeeded in removing choices from the user doesn't make their shitty OS better. On the contrary, it makes it that much worse.

" How many are that 1%? "

Math isn't your strong suit I take it (Hint: It doesn't matter; it's still a mere 1%)

"... please tell me what computer games are supposed to be played on..."

Your on Slashdot and you haven't heard of gaming consoles? Seriously? There is a reason why they are called video games, not "computer games".

Re:Get a signature PC

[kokojie]

How hard would it be for MSFT to provide a button to clean up all the crap 3rd party stuff in a single click and return the OS to original state. They don't care about the users.

Re:Get a signature PC

[Zero__Kelvin]

"I'm waiting for you to provide 'the better alternative' like you said you would."

There is no LabVIEW clone, however I already offered you the better alternative. It's called Linux. A skilled developer can set up a test environment that is far superior to LabVIEW's limited capabilities. As for the niche market I already conceded exists in a few scenarios you went there anyway in an attempt to create the illusion that you had a point with Solidworks (Again, 99% of people who use computers don't use the software you are citing) you still failed, since there is a fine alternative called Blender. If you learned how to Google, you could have checked that before offering up the red herring.

Re:Get a signature PC

[vux984]

Go ahead and try to name an actual application that "is supported on Windows but has less support, or lower performance, or doesn't work at all, on the other operating systems "

Navision
Quickbooks
Outlook
"Bluray playback including BD+"
Filemaker Pro
Cadex Battery Analyser
Medmont Studio (optical topography)
iQmetrix RQ4 (cellular industry specific point of sale)
Compulink Advantage EHR (electronic health records)
TopCon ScanMaster (3D spatial capture)
Advance Medical FocalPoints (contact lens design, point of sale, and manufacturing lathe control)
Motorola CPS/RSS/etc (Two-way radio programming software to setup police/fire/emergency response radio systems for example)

And thousands more.

There are no 'better alternatives' in the OSS domain. In several cases there is no alternative at all.

Linux has some large gaps. For the home consumer it won't run itunes, and isn't great for the kids new ipod touch and the selection of games is a lot weaker. For the generic office types the accounting, powerpoint, and outlook options are weak.

OpenOffice is fine if you are just handling internal documents, or plaintext, but if you are exchanging heavily formatted word or excel sheets with external sources, you need Word and Excel too.

Finally, as the list above demonstrates, as soon as you get into anything really specialized or industry specific or tied to specialized hardware your options are extremely limited, and windows is routinely the only option.

Re:Get a signature PC

[Zero__Kelvin]

There are hundreds of Open Source alternatives to developing software. That being said, one can use crossover to run Visual Studio on Linux.

Re:Get a signature PC

[shutdown -p now]

The windows 7 desktops I got from Acer for my wife and daughter didn't even come with recovery discs, they highly recommended you make one yourself... I think I have like 4 or 5 DVDs for each box. Unbelievable.

I don't know about recovery DVDs, but a recovery partition is mandatory for any hardware certified for Windows 8, due to the presence of the aforementioned "Reset" feature.

So, I'm wondering if you can't do the same with Windows 8 - remove the crapware, clean the registry (if possible), then make recovery discs based on that configuration. Anybody know?

Again, I don't know about DVDs, but you can update the "Reset" image (search for recimg.exe in that post).

Re:Get a signature PC

[Nethead]

re RSS:

He said Windows, not "80386 or less on DOS 6.0." I had to get an old '286 to program my Syntor9000. I do have a '486SLC laptop that I can use on Jedi and Maxtracs.

Re:Get a signature PC

[vux984]

Lol, fair enough. The early RSS for some of the older radios is crazy finicky. As I recall, we got it working in DOSbox though on top of Windows XP on a Pentium 4, with a PCI serial card.

Re:Get a signature PC

[Zero__Kelvin]

"Advance Medical FocalPoints (contact lens design, point of sale, and manufacturing lathe control)"

ROTFLMAO. Really? You're that much of a moron that you think 99% of the people on the planet need a specialized contact lens design and manufacturing setup? As for the rest, I'm not going to go through them all, but I will say that you obviously never heard of crossover. Most or all of them will run on Linux just fine. Most of them also have better FOSS alternatives. You are like a little kid who thinks that when I hide my face with my hands I must have disappeared because you cannot see me. (i.e. Just because you don't know what the better alternatives are, that does not mean they don't exist.)

"OpenOffice is fine if you are just handling internal documents, or plaintext, but if you are exchanging heavily formatted word or excel sheets with external sources, you need Word and Excel too."

Oh. Never mind. I concede your point. Windows is better because they managed to acheive vendor lock-in by leveraging your ignorance. Hooray!!!! Go Windows. Please remove even more choices from me!

Re:Get a signature PC

[Necroloth]

ok, let me help you out a little... 1% of a billion users is still a significant amount of users. Or you can say the desktop Linux users aren't worth designing for as they are small percentage.

are you really telling me a games console isn't a pc in different packaging? Nowadays there's not much difference between the two anyway. Additionally several games are better played with keyboard/mouse combos too... kinda like they were designed for the pc platform...

Re:Get a signature PC

[bingoUV]

The idea is to not draw attention towards the craplets. Or, at least make them appear like "features". Asking money to remove them would be totally counterproductive.

Re:Get a signature PC

[bingoUV]

http://www.zdnet.com/microsofts-skype-for-windows-8-to-launch-october-26-7000006145/

" preinstalled on "the top 12 Windows OEMs' machines,""

Re:Get a signature PC

[Zero__Kelvin]

"ok, let me help you out a little... 1% of a billion users is still a significant amount of users"

You are truly a moron. 1% is not a significant percentage. The 1% are the niche market. I already said that for certain niche markets you just have to have windows. When you get to high school they will teach you about all of this stuff. Good luck getting there!

"are you really telling me a games console isn't a pc in different packaging?"

Yes. I, and every single person with a clue, is telling you that a gaming console is not a personal computer. It is an embedded system. Now, off you go ...

Re:Get a signature PC

[shutdown -p now]

All I can say is that it's not preinstalled on Surface or Asus Vivo Tab RT. It is certainly quite possible that ZDNet has got it wrong, too - they aren't exactly a pinnacle of journalistic accuracy. The other possibility is that specific OEMs may decide to preinstall themselves, since they can add their own apps if they want.

Either way, all preinstalled Metro apps are easily removable (right-click or swipe on the tile and click "Uninstall" in the app bar). If Skype is preinstalled, it includes it as well.

Re:Get a signature PC

[bingoUV]

All I can say is that it's not preinstalled on Surface or Asus Vivo Tab RT

Right, both launched right around or just before Skype so they should have time travelled to include it. Otherwise it is never going to be included in any device, because obviously, 2 whole companies have refused to time travel for it, you know.

It is certainly quite possible that ZDNet has got it wrong, too - they aren't exactly a pinnacle of journalistic accuracy

Whereas you are. Got it.

Re:Get a signature PC

[shutdown -p now]

Right, both launched right around or just before Skype so they should have time travelled to include it.

Or they could be installed as updates.

Anyway, I went to the local Microsoft Store on the day Win8 and Surface launched, and at that point Skype was already in the store - and it was installed on all tablets on display.

Whereas you are. Got it.

In this particular case, I'm going based on what I've seen with my eyes, as opposed to what some guy wrote a month before that based on uncertain sources. Seems reasonable to me.

Re:Get a signature PC

[bingoUV]

Or they could be installed as updates.

And it will be called "included" in the device, out of box, right? Which is what we are discussing, right? Though you are wrong so changing goalposts is a sound strategy for you.

Anyway, I went to the local Microsoft Store on the day Win8 and Surface launched, and at that point Skype was already in the store - and it was installed on all tablets on display.

Skype, Surface and Asus Vivo all were launched on Oct 26. For including out of box, any company would need some testing time. Stores can install on the same day both are released because the testing a store has to do is orders of magnitude lower than for a manufacturer to include a piece of software on a device.

So your "observation" is meaningless for the discussion we are, or at least were, having. Devices launched on the same day as Skype not including it i is NO evidence of future devices not including it.

Re:Get a signature PC

[shutdown -p now]

I admit that I may have been wrong at saying that Skype is definitely not preinstalled. I have to note that it's still unclear whether I was wrong or not, though, since we won't know until we see the next WinRT device (and even then we won't know if it's OEM that decided to preinstall it, or it's a Microsoft decision - OEMs can decide to preinstall their own stuff, too, and e.g. Asus does that). At the same time, Surfaces sold today, a month after launch, still don't come with Skype, which leads me to believe that my initial assumption was not incorrect, after all.

Regardless of that, my second point (about any preinstalled Metro app being trivially removable in two clicks) still stands.

Re:Get a signature PC

[bingoUV]

I have to note that it's still unclear whether I was wrong or not, though, since we won't know until we see the next WinRT device

That is true, though the evidence you gave for the ZDnet story being "questionable" was inadmissible.

Surfaces sold today, a month after launch, still don't come with Skype, which leads me to believe that my initial assumption was not incorrect, after all.

Again inadmissible evidence. When a product is released, a humoungous contraption is set into motion to produce identical copies which is very expensive to tamper with. Only after major (or at least mid-size) revisions are released can the matter be resolved.

Also, Surface may not be a completely correct example because depending on perspective, Microsoft may or may not be considered to be an OEM for its own Software.

Re:Get a signature PC

[Anonymous Coward]

Whenever a commenter includes: "Windows is not designed for serious work" they lose all credibility with anyone who actually makes a living in this business. Windows has been the dominant desktop platform in the corporate world for going on three decades. Full stop. The difference between Windows 7 and Windows 8, for those that have actually spent time using the new OS for any length of time doing real work, is immaterial.

Windows 8? no, thanks

[Anonymous Coward]

My next PC will have Windows 7 or Ubuntu, I'm still not sure...

Re:Windows 8? no, thanks

[Anonymous Coward]

If you're leaving Windows because of the Metro UI, you probably don't want to be a lab rat for Ubuntu's Unity experiment either.
Ubuntu used to be the go-to distro for newbies, but these days I tell the Li-curious to check out Kubuntu or Mint.

Come to think of it, if you don't like crapware, or indeed if you're a sane and decent human being, you probably won't like Amazon ads in your program launcher either, so Mint it is.
How far the kind-of-crappy-but-almost-user-friendly-enough-for-grandma has fallen. :(

Re:Windows 8? no, thanks

[jamstar7]

If you're leaving Windows because of the Metro UI, you probably don't want to be a lab rat for Ubuntu's Unity experiment either. Ubuntu used to be the go-to distro for newbies, but these days I tell the Li-curious to check out Kubuntu or Mint.

Come to think of it, if you don't like crapware, or indeed if you're a sane and decent human being, you probably won't like Amazon ads in your program launcher either, so Mint it is. How far the kind-of-crappy-but-almost-user-friendly-enough-for-grandma has fallen. :(

I'm indifferent to Unity simply because I never used it much. I've been a *box fan for ages, starting out with the old Blackbox 0.4.x series way the hell back when, after trying it out and replacing FVWM/FVWM95 with it. I currently use the Lubuntu cut, with stock Ubuntu and Kubuntu and even Xbuntu installed, just for the libs and the software. For the desktop, I use LXDE. Love it, even though it does remind me a bit of Windows XP.

I recently installed Lubuntu as a secondary OS on my brother in law's laptop for him He likes it.

Junk AVs

[BrownLeopard]

Let's not forget McAfee and Norton pre-installed which are the worst pieces of crapware out there.

Re:Junk AVs

[93 Escort Wagon]

Given recent news stories, using "McAfee" and "crapware" in the same sentence now has a whole other connotation.

Re:Junk AVs

[Anonymous Coward]

Norton used to be a good AV software but now it's just bloated popupware.

So far, no viruses found.

Popup: Norton is performing tasks while the system is idle.

Popup: Monthly report (can be cancelled but it's still the initial popup that is annoying enough).

Popup: Register your software.

The software just refuses to run quietly in the background, something has to pop-up at some time.

I've been informed the newest Norton even does a pop-up detecting caller ID and informing the user of an inbound call when a system that has the phone line routed through the modem. WTF?

Oh yeah, and it becomes malware when the subscription expires--totally shuts down rather than continuing to run with out of date virus definitions.

McAfee? The darn thing couldn't even run stable under Vista 64-bit SP2 after initial installation and activation, so I had to dump it for Norton which actually does run stable beyond being a resource hog with annoying popups. Hint: McAfee needs to be able to download updates and definitions using slower connections and even dial-up networking, something Norton so far can still do at this time.

Not on surface products though

[Anonymous Coward]

They are like just a clean install of windows.

money is addictive -duh!

[hguorbray]

I don't think there is a single mainstream PC vendor that DOESN'T do this -they have come to rely on the $ they get from the crapware vendors to reduce their costs just as they are reliant upon marketing $ from Intel and MS which keeps Linux and other 3rd party OSs out (although Android is definitely starting to break through).

Kind of reminds me of the early days of cable where a good deal of the selling point was no commercials....Now you have to go to the premium packages to get HBO and the others which are commercial free and generally the channels have MORE commercials than broadcast.

-I'm just sayin'

Re: money is addictive -duh!

[Relayman]

True, if you think Macs are not PCs...

Re: money is addictive -duh!

[Miseph]

One of the worst pieces of crapware I've ever encountered, with regards to hijacking functionality, trampling user-defined preferences, insinuating itself into unrelated software, hogging resources, being uncooperative with attempts to uninstall, and just generally causing anguish and frustration is QuickTime. Last I checked, that's an Apple product and a Mac staple.

Re: money is addictive -duh!

[PCM2]

If you're talking about QuickTime for Windows, there's a big difference between that and the QuickTime that comes with Mac OS X in terms of the things you describe.

Re:money is addictive -duh!

[Nefarious Wheel]

Local jobber here in Oz - Scorptec - builds a lot of pc's for people, and you can build your system from components off their web page, and they'll match components and build it for you without charging an arm and a leg. They put a nice fast games machine together for me. I said "No crapware please" and all I got was a nod and -- no crapware. Zero trouble from the build.

It pays to know a good local outfit.

Re: money is addictive -duh!

[antifoidulus]

Quicktime for OS X is just a tiny shell written on top of the OS media playback/editing libraries, there really isn't a whole lot you can install/uninstall there(I guess you can delete the .app, doesn't really do a whole lot).

Re: money is addictive -duh!

[kamapuaa]

Don't forget iTunes and Safari, which are complete crap and for some reason insist on being part of the Operating system.

Re: money is addictive -duh!

[RocketRabbit]

iTunes might have problems but it's the only music library manager that actually makes an attempt at music library management. It also integrates with a lot of neat gadgets in ways that no other software does.

And Safari is great simply because it's the only web browser in the world that renders fonts properly. Firefox, Chrome, IE, and even Opera look just hideous.

Re: money is addictive -duh!

[Anonymous Coward]

Ever heard of foobar2000?

Re: money is addictive -duh!

[collet]

iTunes might have problems but it's the only music library manager that actually makes an attempt at music library management.

I don't know what you're definition of "library management" is but if you're talking about tags/covers/file naming etc. then there's like a gazillion other apps do can do this in, Mp3tag, EasyTag, MediaMonkey, MusicBee...

It also integrates with a lot of neat gadgets in ways that no other software does.

Hmm, iPad, iPod, iPhone, Apple TV, and Macs. That's a whooping 5 products.

And Safari is great simply because it's the only web browser in the world that renders fonts properly. Firefox, Chrome, IE, and even Opera look just hideous.

That is purely personal preference. And you'll find that the majority of people like their fonts more hinted because they don't really care what the type is like if hinted fonts are easier to read.

Re:money is addictive -duh!

[jon3k]

Vizio. Beautiful PCs with all the crapware removed. It's the only thing I recommend for anyone who wants a prebuilt PC.

Re: money is addictive -duh!

[wallbase]

Which is fine, for OS X (given it's a necessary subsystem for proper use of the operating system).

With Quicktime on Windows it seems to think it deserves to take control over your machine as well, as if you deserve the level of integration it has in OS X (despite being entirely different systems).

Re: money is addictive -duh!

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, from what I remember, OS X's iTunes will do a ton of other non-iOS devices as well.

Re: money is addictive -duh!

[Anonymous Coward]

I suspect that he's using the same definition as in a work place. Your manager is the guy telling you what to do, thus your music manager is the software telling you what to listen to, and on what devices.

The alternatives are more like music janitors. Keeping things in working order, and staying out of your way as much as possible.

Re: money is addictive -duh!

[Anonymous Coward]

Rubbish. I've used macs since the beginning of time, Quicktime is a fine product that works exactly as advertised. It created an environment of codec confidence that helped inspire the video revolution on home computers. Your millage on windows might vary but that is a whole different thing.

Re: money is addictive -duh!

[StoneyMahoney]

In that case, you might want to check again. While Quicktime was historically a bit of a rude resource hog, that hasn't been true since Snow Leopard. iTunes has, in some ways, taken over that role and insists on being the default for most sound files. That's no bad thing exactly, the majority of Mac users are probably perfectly happy with that.

I setup a lot of Macs and maintain a list of useful and unobtrusive software as the default install list. In some ways, you could say that I load up those nice clean Macs with crapware before I kick them out the door, except for one word that the majority of PC manufacturers don't seem to have cottoned on to - unobtrusive. It amazes me that so many computers are shipped with their performance so hamstrung by the sheer weight of crap that gets loaded at boot time. Custom written user interface extensions are the worst offenders in my eyes. They never offer anything that can't be done natively in Windows. They are the very definition of pointless.

Posting with a head cold = rambling.

Re: money is addictive -duh!

[StoneyMahoney]

They aren't part of the OS. Apple have never integrated apps in the OS like MS have, and I've used a number of Macs which have had both of those pieces of crap removed. Of course, I've used Safari to download Firefox first, but after that, it's gone. That's pretty much impossible with IE, not sure about MS Media Player.

Re: money is addictive -duh!

[Anonymous Coward]

If you're talking about QuickTime for Windows, there's a big difference between that and the QuickTime that comes with Mac OS X in terms of the things you describe.

Sounds intentional.

Re: money is addictive -duh!

[coinreturn]

One of the worst pieces of crapware I've ever encountered, with regards to hijacking functionality, trampling user-defined preferences, insinuating itself into unrelated software, hogging resources, being uncooperative with attempts to uninstall, and just generally causing anguish and frustration is QuickTime. Last I checked, that's an Apple product and a Mac staple.

But of course! Apple wanted their Windows software to fit into the ecosystem properly.

Re: money is addictive -duh!

[Anonymous Coward]

Looks like you haven't tried ZoneAlarm yet.

Re: money is addictive -duh!

[steelfood]

Yeah, like iTunes, Apple neglected it. Or rather, they didn't really do anything special to make sure it just worked.

Which is why nobody uses QuickTime anymore. Back in the day, Real and Realplayer was the crapware, and QuickTime was the premium codec. Now, it's Flash, and for good reason. Flash does not take over your system, even if it's got its shares of security holes.

Re: money is addictive -duh!

[zwarte piet]

But then there is quicktime alternative: http://www.free-codecs.com/download/quicktime_alternative.htm

Re: money is addictive -duh!

[collet]

Like "no other software does"?

Questionable List

[rsmith-mac]

Am I the only one that finds this list somewhat questionable?

Of the 50 items, most of it definitely fits the definition of crapware: McAfee® Internet Security Suite, WeatherBug, Wild Tangent, etc

But then there are some other items in here that have me scratching my head. When was Solitaire or Minesweeper crapware?

They seem to just be listing all non-stock software (since MS doesn't include their Metro games in the box), which is not the same as crapware.

Re:Questionable List

[Anonymous Coward]

Then there's the double-counting. Spotify is listed twice, and so is Wild Tangent. There may be other dupes.

Someone didn't proofread very carefully at all.

Re:Questionable List

[jtownatpunk.net]

It's just complete ignorance. Welcome to modern "journalism". Anyone with a clue knows this is a vendor issue, not an OS issue.

Re:Questionable List

[DNS-and-BIND]

Written by a journalist. What did you expect? There are deadlines to meet.

Re:Questionable List

[Anonymous Coward]

McAfee isn't crapware so much as it's crap. Anti-virus on Windows is there to serve a useful purpose--it's just that that suite isn't known for doing it well.

Re:Questionable List

[Frosty Piss]

Sure, it's a lot of "crapwear". BUT, this is an OEM issue, not a MS / Win8 issue.

Secondly, is this news? Not really, it's been this way for a LONG TIME.

If you buy a system for which you don't intend on wiping and building up from zero, then you'll need to uninstall a lot of this crap. It's been this way for YEARS.

And if you DO intend on running windows, ditch the factory install and cripple-wear reinstall CD that comes with it, and buy Win8 Pro so you have the actual full CD.

None of this is news for OEM Windows systems.

Re:Questionable List

[Anonymous Coward]

But then there are some other items in here that have me scratching my head. When was Solitaire or Minesweeper crapware?

When it is metrofied and ad supported??? Not that I have a problem playing and downloading ad-supported games which I do on my Android, but it ought not come with the system (yes, Google is an offender too).

Re:Questionable List

[Anonymous Coward]

It's just a bad copy and paste job taken out of context. Some things are listed twice because they have a "metro app" and "desktop app".

Re:Questionable List

[Gaygirlie]

Let's see. There's plenty of apps on that list that I would NOT call crapware, as follows: 1) Acer Recovery Management -- well, the name says it all. It's an application that allows the user to e.g. create recovery disks for the system and/or restore the thing to factory conditions. 2) Acer Live Update -- it's a small application that periodically checks Acer's servers for updated software, drivers and BIOS. Again, quite useful. 3) Cyberlink MediaEspresso -- atleast the version I got on my laptop was the full version, not a trial one, and people do like to use the app to convert their videos for YouTube or mobile phones. 4) Spotify -- well, many people enjoy streaming music, and it's not like Spotify slows your computer down just by being installed there. 5) Crystal Eye -- it's a webcam utility which allows the user to record videos or take pictures. Since Windows seemingly does not include such an application of its own then it actually does make a lot of sense to include this.

I just get the impression that the author felt like whining online in an effort to gain some sort of street cred among geek community, but didn't actually peruse the list properly.

Re:Questionable List

[Zero__Kelvin]

"It's just complete ignorance. Welcome to modern "journalism". Anyone with a clue knows this is a vendor issue, not an OS issue."

So it is your assertion that Microsoft can require the vendor to sell a copy of Windows with every single computer they sell, but are powerless to insist that the system be shipped with the OS as is, sans crapware? Think about it for a minute, and you'll realize that Microsoft could have insisted on integrity, but they chose to go for the money at the cost of the buyer/user and then you might even eventually come to the conclusion that Microsoft cares about the money, and only about the money. As long as they can force you to buy it, they don't actually care if it is a quality product.

Re:Questionable List

[Ambvai]

Hell, I bet more people would complain if Solitaire and Minesweeper were NOT included.

Re:Questionable List

[jtownatpunk.net]

That's exactly what I'm saying. It's not Microsoft's place to tell Company XYZ how to package and present the product that Company XYZ sells. If you don't like the way Company XYZ presents the product, don't buy it . Buy your computers from Company CBA which is known for having very clean OS installs.

That's what I did with my Android devices. I bought from the Nexus line so I would get the cleanest default OS installation available.

Re:Questionable List

[Anonymous Coward]

So it is your assertion that Microsoft can require the vendor to sell a copy of Windows with every single computer they sell, but are powerless to insist that the system be shipped with the OS as is, sans crapware?

No. Your argument is known as a strawman.

Re:Questionable List

[tlhIngan]

That's exactly what I'm saying. It's not Microsoft's place to tell Company XYZ how to package and present the product that Company XYZ sells. If you don't like the way Company XYZ presents the product, don't buy it . Buy your computers from Company CBA which is known for having very clean OS installs.

That's what I did with my Android devices. I bought from the Nexus line so I would get the cleanest default OS installation available.

The Microsoft Store sells "Premium PCs" which are regular stock PCs you can find at Best Buy etc., with one restriction - nothing other than Windows and essential utilities (to make recovery discs and manage stuff like special keys and functions) are allowed to be installed. No trial software (I don't think even Microsoft Office Trial is allowed). It's basically Windows + drivers.

Heck, someone should send this journalist a Mac that's been bootcamped - nothing installed but Windows and the Apple support drivers (which... manage the clock (MacOS/Linux use UTC on the RTC, while Windows puts local time on the RTC - if you swap OSes, having to change the clock will be annoying), startup options (boot Mac or Windows?), keyboard and a few other things). He's probably argue that's crapware as well (what, people should hold down keys to boot?).

Re:Questionable List

[Zibodiz]

I would kinda tend to disagree with most of your points.
1) I totally agree.
2) Totally unneeded. Vendor updating slows computers needlessly. If there is a critical driver update, it gets pushed to MS and will be downloaded with Windows Update.
3) Sure, you can use it, but why? It runs as a background service, and (if it's like the Win7 version) as a systray app that hogs resources whether you ever use them or not. They do nothing for you that Windows can't do out-of-the-box. And why would you need a program to convert videos before uploading to youtube? Youtube accepts any standard video format, and if you have a camcorder, it would have come with software to do any necessary conversion. If it didn't, that's their problem, and not something a PC manufacturer should be concerned about.
4) Totally unneeded. Spotify makes money from you by playing ads. Their software is every bit as useless as an IE toolbar. Sure, some can have handy features, but that definitely does not make up for their unneeded bloat or the fact that they're only there to make money off of you. If someone wants Spotify features, they can download Spotify. Or maybe they could just use xbox music, a new service from MS that comes preloaded in Win8 that is exactly the same thing.
5) Maybe some folks like the features of this software better than the integrated application, but Windows 8 does have pre-loaded webcam software. It comes on the Microsoft install disk -- I purchased Windows 8 for my PC and installed it from scratch. I don't know what features it has, because my webcam unfortunately isn't compatible (the only hardware issue I've had with Win8), but it's there nonetheless.
The only software I consider appropriate for an OEM build would be the basic Windows components, Java (which is difficult thanks to licensing), and the basic Adobe suite of free software (which MS is trying to do away with, thanks to 'viewer' for opening PDFs, and Silverlight). Everything else should be installed later by the end user, including the free MS games. After all, Win8 has a large, obvious button for the market, where people can download anything that's available.

Re:Questionable List

[Anonymous Coward]

1) Acer Recovery Management -- well, the name says it all. It's an application that allows the user to e.g. create recovery disks for the system and/or restore the thing to factory conditions.

You can already do that natively in Windows, you don't need the Acer software or the hidden recovery partition. But it's cheaper than giving you an OS image on a disc, and when the HDD tanks you get to pay them a premium to ship you a restore disc.

2) Acer Live Update -- it's a small application that periodically checks Acer's servers for updated software, drivers and BIOS.

Windows Update already takes care of the drivers. The software it checks for is the Acer software. You shouldn't be fucking around with your BIOS at all unless you know what you're doing.

3) Cyberlink MediaEspresso -- atleast the version I got on my laptop was the full version, not a trial one, and people do like to use the app to convert their videos for YouTube or mobile phones

Never tried using it, but frankly speaking most people take videos with their smartphones or a video camera. The video cameras come with their own software, or just use standard formats natively, and with smartphones you can usually just upload right to youtube.

4) Spotify -- well, many people enjoy streaming music, and it's not like Spotify slows your computer down just by being installed there.

Yes, actually it does. That's one more program which scans for updates, and if you want Spotify it's not like it's hard to just install it. No reason for it to be pre-loaded, from the user's perspective.

5) Crystal Eye -- it's a webcam utility which allows the user to record videos or take pictures. Since Windows seemingly does not include such an application of its own then it actually does make a lot of sense to include this.

I've never seen a webcam that didn't have this functionality. This is probably the only piece of software you mentioned which has a reason to be there, assuming they didn't just replace the one which normally ships with the webcam if you bought it externally from the same vendor.

Re:Questionable List

[Anonymous Coward]

Acer Live Update -- it's a small application that periodically checks Acer's servers for updated software, drivers and BIOS.

For about 2 years. Then Acer/Dell/whoever stop releasing updates. After that the computer is wasting bandwidth looking for a non-existent database.

Cyberlink MediaEspresso

I save a YouTube video about twice a year since it is not my main form of entertainment. There are web-pages that will do the conversion for me. I don't need to clog my registry with DLLs that aren't used for 180 days straight.

Spotify

The point of these is more to sell bandwidth and pay-per-use services. When I listen to music I don't want to be glued to my laptop. With smart phones having a media player it is also unnecessary.

Crystal Eye

When I take a photo I don't want to be aiming my laptop at the subject. Again with a smart phone, this is unnecessary.

TL;DR: The laptop is not a convergence product like the phone/camera/walkman device. Stop loading it with shopping-list software.

Re:Questionable List

[clarkn0va]

2) Acer Live Update -- it's a small application that periodically checks Acer's servers for updated software, drivers and BIOS. Again, quite useful.

I have to disagree with you there. I set up an Acer last week, and as usual, just wiped and did a fresh install, as it's usually quicker and cleaner than decrapifying. After Windows, the first piece of software I installed was Acer Live Update. It found zero updates, despite several unknown devices in the device manager. Useless.

As for the other Acer software you mentioned, I've yet to see a vendor-supplied backup or other utility that works well enough to justify not tearing it out by the roots.

Re:Questionable List

[Zero__Kelvin]

"That's exactly what I'm saying."

I stopped reading right there. I have found that people who would rather continue to look foolish than admit they simply made a foolish statement are wastes of everyone's time and resources.

Re:Questionable List

[Zero__Kelvin]

It might help your case if you had any idea what a strawman argument is, which you clearly don't.

Re:Questionable List

[Gaygirlie]

After Windows, the first piece of software I installed was Acer Live Update. It found zero updates, despite several unknown devices in the device manager. Useless.

It only knows to look for updates for things you have already installed. It doesn't know how to look updates for things you do not have installed yet, so indeed, it cannot be used to install drivers on a fresh install. Besides, it may not be useful to you, but it's useful to all the non-geeks who do not know where to look for drivers or BIOS-updates, and as these non-geeks do not do clean installs of Windows they do not run into the thing you mentioned, you know?

Re:Questionable List

[AmiMoJo]

You need to think about it from a typical end user's point of view. I worked in a computer (repair) shop for a few years and you would be surprised what the average person's expectation of a laptop is.

2) If there is a critical security issue with one of Acer's apps then it makes sense to have an automatic update mechanism, because the chance of the user going to Acer's web site and checking themselves is close to zero.

3) Yes, if you have a camcorder it might have the right software, but if you are just using your phone or the built-in web cam you probably won't. Uploading 1080p video can take a long time so it makes sense to reduce the file size first. Plus you might want to burn it to DVD, which again means conversion.

5) This is a good example of why OEMs include their own software. The MS app is basic and can't control all the features of the camera. It works fine for most people but the OEM will want to differentiate their webcam from the rest with extras, so they need their own app. In other words it isn't completely pointless crapware, it does actual provide some additional functionality.

People often complain about pre-installed anti-virus software as well, but consumers expect it to be there. Of course McAfee is the worst choice by far but having none isn't really an option. Can you license Security Essentials for pre-installation?

Re:Questionable List

[Anonymous Coward]

Huh? Spotify is a compulsory install on any new system anyways. It's the program that basically killed music pirating. Ok, maybe it shouldn't be pre installed, as some people just don't like to listen to music.

Re:Questionable List

[StoneyMahoney]

There would be an outcry from the manufacturers if Microsoft required clean OS only products. Those rubbish GUI "enhancement" quick loaders and wifi managers and power meters and what-have-you that manufacturers like to load on to their systems are a major part of the product branding that differentiates the PC market into so many sectors. All the trialware and 3rd party stuff that gets added is to actually give some functionality that the manufacturer just doesn't want to write themselves - hence the obligatory McAfee removal on virtually every computer these days despite the sheer volume of very capable free antivirus packages out there.

Thought - it all systems were clean-OS only, would you trust average Joe/Jane user to download and install a decent anti-virus package on their own?

Re:Questionable List

[Misagon]

4) Spotify -- well, many people enjoy streaming music, and it's not like Spotify slows your computer down just by being installed there

Spotify is actually using a peer-to-peer file-sharing for distributing music files.
File-sharing music files does not consume that much resources (compared to, say, file-sharing movies...), but saying that it does not consume resources at all is wrong.

Re:Questionable List

[Anonymous Coward]

Not to mention WildTangents is listed twice (making the list appear just slightly larger)

Re:Questionable List

[aaron552]

Thought - it all systems were clean-OS only, would you trust average Joe/Jane user to download and install a decent anti-virus package on their own?

Windows 8 includes the free MSE antivirus in Windows Defender now, so they don't need to

Re:Questionable List

[Anonymous Coward]

killed music pirating.

Hahahahahahaha

Re:Questionable List

[Anonymous Coward]

The only software I consider appropriate for an OEM build would be the basic Windows components, Java ..., and the basic Adobe suite of free software...

A Windows distributor should give you just windows. Meanwhile, folks around here seem to expect a Linux distributor to give you linux, a whole suite of gnu tools, web browser, app store, office productivity, media player, etc.

It turns out that the people who make all those add-ons in the windows space often include some always-on, ad-playing, or monitoring features, but they're clearly things that annoy (at most) a small part of their market. It even seems like many people find it valuable to be able to sit down at a brand-new computer and do stuff without having to go and download the most popular software. People who want a stripped-down, lean machine are the minority and vendors are not going to inconvenience the majority on their behalf. Especially if they get paid to add demos, trials, and adware.

Re:Questionable List

[Anonymous Coward]

What argument can you possibly make that I would need to buy the same~ OS, twice? Just to avoid crapware? If at his point most consumers aren't even smart enough to remove crapware, I wonder whether they should be using a PC at all.

Re:Questionable List

[Anonymous Coward]

> None of this is news for OEM Windows systems.
But it is news for people who want to pay money for something that JUST WORKS. OEM vendors don't deliver. They still don't deliver. The only thing they had to do was piss simple. Install windows, make it internet ready. They still can't figure it out!

Apple vendors may be far more restricted in their freedoms, but that same restriction keeps every middle manager's personal pork and business deals from flooding the scene.

What would you rather buy, a Windows system that takes half a day to work the way it was originally intended to, or an Apple product that works the instant you step out the store?

Re:Questionable List

[Gaygirlie]

4) Spotify -- well, many people enjoy streaming music, and it's not like Spotify slows your computer down just by being installed there

Spotify is actually using a peer-to-peer file-sharing for distributing music files.
File-sharing music files does not consume that much resources (compared to, say, file-sharing movies...), but saying that it does not consume resources at all is wrong.

All the information I can find says it does that only when the client is running. If the client is not running then it indeed doesn't consume resources.

Re:Questionable List

[slashmydots]

I agree to a certain point. If it doesn't launch at startup, I don't care about it. But then again, they implemented ads in their weather app so that'd be crapwear whether it loads or not. It seems like every basic windows app has had ads injected into it which definitely certifies it as top level crapware. So the list may be slightly worse than you're imagining but definitely could be trimmed slightly.

Re:Questionable List

[JDG1980]

So it is your assertion that Microsoft can require the vendor to sell a copy of Windows with every single computer they sell, but are powerless to insist that the system be shipped with the OS as is, sans crapware?

Indeed, that is the case. Microsoft wants to keep crapware off OEM PCs, but it would be an antitrust violation if they tried to force the OEMs to stop bundling it. Remember that the original MS antitrust case involved (among other things) OEMs who wanted to put Netscape as the default browser on their PCs.

Re:Questionable List

[kokojie]

1. no you can't, windows does not restore your PC to FACTORY status, only the vendor restore disk can do that. 2. I'm pretty sure windows update don't update vendor software or BIOS. Btw, updating BIOS is very safe today, there's no chance you can mess up your BIOS at all. You are thinking of 2002 BIOS update maybe, not 2012. BIOS update is very useful, probably the single most significant way to boost compatibility and performance. 3. Webcam/camera don't always come with software, especially the used ones, and the vendor software isn't usually better than the Cyberlink software. You are getting a paid software for free, why complain. 4. Spotify, I agree, there's no point to pre-install

Re:Questionable List

[Anonymous Coward]

Creating recovery disks is generally a one-shot on Acers. Somebody already burned them on this one. Where they are, nobody knows.

So, can somebody please reseed the Acer NAPP 7.5.10 torrent? ;-)

Re:Questionable List

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah yes, the Anonymous Coward Apple Whore.

Re:Questionable List

[jpiratefish]

And this is why Apple is still winning.

Microsoft needs to desperately flush the toilet of all the old. The fact that the Surface Tablet, a supposed walled garden that supports only Flash, but not Java, still needed to perform a Windows Defender scan after it's first update, proves it. They can't break out of their old ways, and they're still not trying.

Re:Questionable List

[steelfood]

Totally unneeded. Vendor updating slows computers needlessly. If there is a critical driver update, it gets pushed to MS and will be downloaded with Windows Update.

Any such updates are not considered critical by the automatic update service, and so you'd have to go to the Windows Update site to get it. This may appear to be a trivial step, but for less-savvy users, it's the difference between having the most recent driver and not.

And it's anecdotal, but I find that Windows Update is a bit late on the driver side.

Re:Questionable List

[jtownatpunk.net]

Do you have any idea how dumb you sound?

So it was bad when MS tried to force people to use IE but it would be good if they could deny the inclusion of third party software. Yep. That sounds real smrt.

Re:Questionable List

[Zero__Kelvin]

"Do you have any idea how dumb you sound?"

Yes. To an intelligent person it is clear that I am quite smart, but when all you have is a median or lower IQ - like yourself - then I can imagine you very well might think it sounds "dumb". Do you have any idea how stupid you actually are?

Re:Questionable List

[Zibodiz]

Actually, Security Essentials has been renamed Windows Defender (because MS is in love with reusing names) and is included with Win8 right out of the box.
As far as AV software goes for pre-Win8, in my shop we have a single-file installer for MSSE and for a 90-day trial of Norton sitting on the desktop of computers for sale, and let the customer choose which to use. When asked, I always recommend MSSE, but the customer is the one who installs and activates it.

Re:Questionable List

[Zero__Kelvin]

Your argument is only valid if Microsoft would never do anything that could be considered anti-trust. In truth, they have always completely ignored right and wrong, as well as legal vs. illegal, and have always done whatever was more profitable for them. In other words, I stated that they are perfectly capable of doing it, which they are, and you countered that in an alternate universe where they care what is and isn't anti-trust said fictitional company couldn't do it.

Re:Questionable List

[tripleevenfall]

I thought "Crapwear" was the kind of stuff you buy at Hot Topic.

Re:Questionable List

[Cito]

Acer Live Update doesn't work at all

I bought an Acer 5536-5142 laptop on sale for 325 bucks at newegg 2 halloweens ago on a halloween special sale. It's an amd 2.10ghz with 4 gigs ram windows 7 on it and runs great after I removed all the bloatware.

Anyhow ive had the laptop now actually going on 3 years and acer update has always come back with 0 updates. Even if I didnt run windows update for 7 months in one stretch and video card, web cam driver and all were out of date.

acer update still reported 0 updates.

And reading forums everyone that owns the 5000 series acer laptops the acer update program has NEVER once showed an update ever. Even when there were updates on acer's website available.

it's broke program and definitely doesn't work with their laptops, maybe it works for their netbooks but not the laptops

Re:Questionable List

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly. The crap is from the OEM.

Re:Questionable List

[Ol Olsoc]

If you buy a system for which you don't intend on wiping and building up from zero, then you'll need to uninstall a lot of this crap. It's been this way for YEARS.

And if you DO intend on running windows, ditch the factory install and cripple-wear reinstall CD that comes with it, and buy Win8 Pro so you have the actual full CD.

None of this is news for OEM Windows systems.

In other words it's crap, but it's been crap for years, so that is a good thing, and how dare people complain about it!

And the cure is to buy two versions of Windows? The version that came with the computer. And the version you will eventually use?

I'm intrigued by your ideas. Perhaps you have a newsletter I can subscribe to?

Re:Questionable List

[Anonymous Coward]

So .. You buy M$ products just to play Solitare and Minesweeper? You need to move out of your mother's basement and get a life.

This is the price you pay if you want it cheap.

[Anonymous Coward]

If you don't want it, don't buy crapware from crapstores, simple.

Crapware Is Good

[sk999]

I figure the crapware vendors pay enough to balance out the cost of MS Windows 8. Thus, when I wipe the hard disk and install Linux, I'm still breaking even.

Re:Crapware Is Good

[Anonymous Coward]

That is a story that I would love to see. Using the same criteria, what is all the crapware that comes with the big unix and linux distributions.

Crapware comes from crap business models

[Anonymous Coward]

Guys, and gals. There are a few MBAs out there I presume. If your business model is based on razor thin margins, the pressure to allow crapware to invade your environment is to great to expect crapware not to thrive.

Buy a Mac. The Apple business margins are fat, so you won't have deal with crapware.

Here's a hint. Figure out what your time is worth. Knowing the business fact of the cost of your time, will provide the correct answer.

Re:Crapware comes from crap business models

[Anonymous Coward]

Buy a Mac. The Apple business margins are fat

It's true. Locally I can buy a Win8 (ugh) laptop with:

24GB SSD / 750 GB HDD / 6 GB RAM / 15" screen / DVD drive for $650.

Same processor Apple laptop with:

500 GB HDD / 4 GB RAM / 13" screen / no optical drive for $999.

Re:Crapware comes from crap business models

[93 Escort Wagon]

And what are the weights and thicknesses for each of those laptops?

Thinner, lighter laptops cost more. It's not a Mac versus PC thing - most companies that sell cheap, thick, heavy Windows laptops also offer thin, light, expensive Windows laptops.

Windows beats Android on crapware

[Sussurros]

My clean Android is full of crapware that I can't remove. Windows crapware is removeable.

Windows beats Android on crapware.

Re:Windows beats Android on crapware

[nurb432]

Root then install a 3rd party ROM. Get a direct from china device that doesn't have it in the first place.

Problem solved.

Re:Windows beats Android on crapware

[Anonymous Coward]

So how exactly do you remove Internet Explorer, then?

Re:Windows beats Android on crapware

[Anonymous Coward]

You can remove it, you just need to spend 10 minutes learning how to root and flash. Or you could have bought a Nexus device.

Windows beats Android on n00bs.

Re:Windows beats Android on crapware

[the eric conspiracy]

That's why I bought a Galaxy Nexus from Google. No blood sucking crapware, plus I don't have a contract with the Devil.

Re:Windows beats Android on crapware

[bigredradio]

It's so simple, I don't see why everyone doesn't do that.

Re:Windows beats Android on crapware

[Sussurros]

If I root my HTC One X and don't get it right then I've got myself a doorstop. If I do it after I get my HTC DNA then it has no meaning. I'm right back in 1985 when I wanted to upgrade from an 8bit XT mobo to a 16bit 286 and I cooked a $600 mobo ($2000 in today's dollars - a bank loan was involved).

Re:Windows beats Android on crapware

[Anonymous Coward]

That's why I bought a Galaxy Nexus from Google

I don't have a contract with the Devil.

Really... This is just too easy...

Re:Windows beats Android on crapware

[lexman098]

I think your making some big assumptions. Rooting the one x is very easy. Worst case scenerio most of the time is you have to reflash.

Or just deal with a locked phone full of crapware...

Re:Windows beats Android on crapware

[Anonymous Coward]

su
mount -o remount,rw /system
cd /system/app
rm StupidBloatware.apk
reboot

What, your `su` comes back "Permission denied"? Should have gone with something rootable then...

Re:Windows beats Android on crapware

[Sussurros]

You give me hope.

Re:Windows beats Android on crapware

[Darinbob]

Actually I have an AT&T HTC and I found that while I can't uninstall the AT&T specific apps, I can go to the software settings and disable them so that they won't show up or ask to be updated.

Re:Windows beats Android on crapware

[Anonymous Coward]

Yet they sit there consuming disk space for no reason.

Re:Windows beats Android on crapware

[PCM2]

Or buy a Nexus device direct from Google. Stock Android UI, no crapware, and you also get the advantage of being among the first to get the latest OS updates (when other devices might never get them).

Re:Windows beats Android on crapware

[mjwx]

Root then install a 3rd party ROM. Get a direct from china device that doesn't have it in the first place.

Problem solved.

Even just manufacturer direct, a vanilla SGS III or even a Google Nexus device. My last HTC or my GNex had no such crapware.

Re:Windows beats Android on crapware

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

So how exactly do you remove Internet Explorer, then?

Removing iexplore.exe isn't particularly difficult. Removing MShtml.dll can cause... interesting... side effects.

Re:Windows beats Android on crapware

[LordLimecat]

Except third party ROMs arent available for all Android phones, so this is a poor response.

Quick, find me a ROM for the fairly recent (2011) Motorola Admiral. Oh wait, you cant, because there isnt one, and its still a terrible phone with terrible crapware on it.

Re:Windows beats Android on crapware

[Anonymous Coward]

No blood sucking crapware

Really? No Google Now, Youtube or Facebook apps?

plus I don't have a contract with the Devil

Ah, so you're not syncing your phone with a Google Account. Sensible chap.

Re:Windows beats Android on crapware

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure you do, the Devil is Google now.

Re:Windows beats Android on crapware

[Anonymous Coward]

Or just go into the application info and disable it completely.

At least you can completely disable (i.e. the only place it shows up is in the App list buried in the settings and can never run) any software on Android, unlike a "stocks application" (or other garbage you don't use) on another platform.

Re:Windows beats Android on crapware

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, it's seriously difficult to actually brick an android device.

As far as I can see, you'd have to disable both the boot loader and the recovery at the same time to become a serious problem - and even then, I think you can recover from that.

Re:Windows beats Android on crapware

[grumpy_old_grandpa]

I don't know what crapware the telephone companies install these days, but last I checked, the Nexus phones also had their share of unwanted software, which was impossible to remove. For third-party that included an app for Amazon MP3 Store, Facebook, a newsreader. And if you don't want to be a Google serf with a logged in account, all these apps are also simply resource hogs: GMail, Calendar, GTalk, Maps, YouTube. The last two would actually be interesting to use, and it is a shame you can't without a logged-in account. But to say that Nexus phones have no unwanted non-removable apps is demonstrably wrong.

Of course, personally I have installed the OS image I prefer, just like I've done with any other device I've ever owned where that is possible. I don't see why today's pocket PCs, aka. phones, should be any different.

Re:Windows beats Android on crapware

[Anonymous Coward]

Try removing Play* applications then! At best, you can deactivate them only be get stuck with them reappearing every time you power cycle or the Nexus looks for updates, and nags you about them being out of date despite being disabled.

Re:Windows beats Android on crapware

[MozeeToby]

No, problem is not solved. Problem is worked around, problem is bandaided, problem is addressed. But it is not solved. The user shouldn't have to jump through hoops to control their device.

Re:Windows beats Android on crapware

[Muad'Dave]

"Ethel, you shameless hussy!"

My God, you must be as old as I am.

Re:Windows beats Android on crapware

[JDG1980]

So how exactly do you remove Internet Explorer, then?

Control Panel -> Programs and Features -> Turn Windows features on or off

There's a checkbox for IE in there (at least on Windows 7).

Re:Windows beats Android on crapware

[fuzzywig]

Except that non-google devices that get rooted often end up with slick installers to root them with one click, where as for a Nexus device you end up having to download the SDK and all sorts.
Although I'd still recommend getting a google device anyway.

Re:Windows beats Android on crapware

[AnonyMouseCowWard]

I don't disagree, but don't you see how that's the same problem as Windows?

1. Buy brand new Windows PC
2. Reinstall fresh OS
No crapware!

Mind you, installing a fresh Windows is easier for a non-techie than "root your device", which is pretty scary to most non tech-inclined people. Hence, if your Android device comes with crapware, it might be worse than Windows.

Re:Windows beats Android on crapware

[Anonymous Coward]

Unless, of course, you have a Nexus device.

Re:Windows beats Android on crapware

[Anonymous Coward]

Based on recent experience with an Android phone running out of room for text messages when there are none on it, I'm not so sure anymore who has more crapware. Used to think it was Windows, any version. Now after getting an operating system "upgrade" on my Android phone ... let's just say nothing's perfect. Did what the phone techs said. But trying to uninstall apps, clear caches, etc., doesn't always help. Some seem to have automatic updates whether the user wants them or not.

Don't you just love computers, smart phones, tablets, etc?!

Re:Windows beats Android on crapware

[girlinatrainingbra]

Re: you also get the advantage of being among the first to get the latest OS updates (when other devices might never get them).

Except, of course, when the next iteration of the hottest new thing in android hardware comes along in anywhere from 3 to 12 months, and your oh-so-new-now hardware also joins the list of hardware that is no longer on the "updateable" list. A lot of Honeycomb devices do not get to upgrade. And that was just a single software revision level. So I don't think you should get your hopes up about the latest OS update even being applicable in the future even for a current Nexus.

Re:Windows beats Android on crapware

[PCM2]

Obviously older hardware won't get OS updates forever. It's because the hardware can't accommodate them, not because of some conspiracy theory.

With Android 4.2, the Nexus S and the Motorola Xoom got dropped from the list that get the upgrade. That seems logical. For example, the Nexus S only has a single-core processor, while its successor the Galaxy Nexus has a dual-core running at a higher clock speed. The Nexus S also has half the memory of the Galaxy Nexus, and its screen resolution is 37 percent lower. It simply is not a modern handset, and the effort required to shoehorn Jelly Bean 4.2 onto it wouldn't be worth the time, effort, or money.

Sure, the Nexus S was only released two years ago, but in case you haven't noticed, this market moves fast. I can understand why some people would be disappointed that the product's "shelf life" is only two years -- but that's really not the case. The Nexus S can still run Jelly Bean 4.1.2, which is a more recent OS release than all but 2.7 percent of all Android phones are running.

whose fault ?

[Anonymous Coward]

I do not believe this is Microsoft's fault. The other vendors subsidize the cost to the manufacturer. So you clean it out, delete the bloatware.

Re:whose fault ?

[Sussurros]

If you cultivate rhinoberries you'll get rhinos. If you cultivate catnip you'll get zonked out cats. Change the ambit and you change the ambience

Re:whose fault ?

[TheGratefulNet]

All mimsy were the borogoves and the mome raths outgrabe.

(your turn)

Re:whose fault ?

[Sussurros]

'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.

My father was in the Japanese Occupation Force and detested the Japanese til the day he died. I went to Japan to see what he was talking about, saw it, and fell in love with the place nonetheless. I learned Japanese poetry. I talked my sister through cancer with it - she said to me "my oncologist saved me but you brought light to a dark place." The finest Japanese poetry was written by Irishman, Yeats:

Climbing, falling she knew not where,
Hiding amid the cargo of a steamship,
Her knee-cap broken, that girl I declare
A beautiful lofty thing, or a thing
Heroically lost, heroically found.

No matter what disaster occurred
She stood in desperate music wound,
Wound, wound, and she made in her triumph
Where the bales and the baskets lay
No common intelligible sound
But sang, O sea-starved, hungry sea.'

That is like Windows. I took a day off work to line up and buy Windows 98SE but when Windows ME cme out I knew iit was a dead seagull. Nowadays they who stuck with Windows sit on coils of rope, their kneecaps broken, and sing a song of freedom.

why Norton Internet Security or McAfee Internet S

[Joe_Dragon]

why Norton Internet Security or McAfee Internet when MS own tools are better.

Reinstall the OS?

[macbeth66]

I know it is a pain. But I recently did just that on an older HP laptop with Vista ( shudder ) and it did not re-install any of the crapware. I even created a DVD full of software I wanted using a fully protected machine. I installed everything on the Vista laptop and it is actually quite sprite. I even did a 'dd' with an Ubuntu to another, larger drive. I swapped drives and rebooted. Six months, so far, and no issues.

Re:Reinstall the OS?

[LinuxIsGarbage]

Yes a nuke and reload is always best. However given the lack of included installation media (though you can create restore discs, those include the junk, and most users are incapable of even getting that far), it isn't that hard, but it's out of reach of a lot of amateurs, and it still proves the system, and the experience is broken.

Interestingly, I see reports of users with Windows 8 OEM computers that are having a bitch of a time getting Windows 8 to reinstall off plain Windows 8 discs.

Re:Reinstall the OS?

[PCM2]

Interestingly, I see reports of users with Windows 8 OEM computers that are having a bitch of a time getting Windows 8 to reinstall off plain Windows 8 discs.

I don't know about the specific reports you mention, but they may be due to the fact that most (retail) Windows 8 discs are intended for upgrades only. If you want to wipe the drive and install fresh, you either need to install Windows 7 first and upgrade using a retail Windows 8 disc, buy the "System Builder Edition" of Windows 8, or get an ISO and a valid serial number from MSDN or TechNet. Also, Windows 8 will not activate without a valid Product Key -- and unlike Windows 7, you get no grace period and must activate it in order to use it -- and it seems likely that the Keys that are supplied with OEM preinstalled copies aren't valid for retail versions (though I have not verified this).

Re:Reinstall the OS?

[LinuxIsGarbage]

This is an example of one of the reports:
http://forums.mydigitallife.info/threads/39046-Windows-8-OEM-Issue

My time is worth more..

[Anonymous Coward]

Back in the days when I would build my own computer, I'd chalk that off as a "soft expense" for being so bare-bones. Now that I'm older and have a job, I'd much rather spend my time with my wife whenever I have those rare moments of free time. I used to snark about Mac people, but now I'm seeing the benefit of something that "just works." I already pay premium for several things in life because I can afford to - and again - my time is more valuable, even for $500 uninstalling crapware && reinstall OS + updates for 4 hours. It's despicable that Acer is pulling this crap at a premium price-point. It's the same reason I left Sony Vaio's and Lenovos before I finally succumbed to Macbook Pros. Yes, even the Mac has some lame software built-in, but they don't shove it in your face or clutter your desktop/ taskbar/ shortcuts. Nor do I have to worry about them popping up and complaining about their existence (except for iTunes updates). Most importantly, I don't have to worry about those 3rd-party apps phoning home god-knows-why.

Am I a mac fanboi? No. I have a rooted Android phone (because I had to remove the crapware). I'm getting a Nexus 4 if possible.

But the point it is, I'm willing to pay a premium to have something that just "works." For work.

The only thing useful in that list for me is the Webster dictionary. And I bet it's a paid-subscription.

Re:My time is worth more..

[cheekyboy]

Jeez your a lazy sob.

Buy a cheapass laptop, boot of bootable USB (loaded with Win7Ult), a few clicks later, boom, 30 mins, install done (dvd installers make me laugh)

Fresh windows, no crap ware. Your getting old dude.

By your rationale, why dont you sleep 1 hr a day, and take coke to stay away, since you know time asleep equals money equals wasted money.

Work 21hrs/day.

Re:My time is worth more..

[OldSport]

Only two types of people would pay a $500 - $1000 (or more) premium for something anyone with the most basic computer literacy can do in 15 minutes: an idiot, or someone who likes to boast about having the money to do so. Which is funny, because in the grown-up world, most of us can afford an extra $500 or $1000 here and there, so your thinly-veiled bragging just sounds pathetic, that's all. ...although if people are willing to pay that kind of money for no crapware, I think I may have a new career as a Crapware Removal specialist.

Re:My time is worth more..

[Anonymous Coward]

Learn to spell.

Re:why Norton Internet Security or McAfee Internet

[Anonymous Coward]

The OEM doesn't get a cut of the sales of MS tools.

Do both...

[macbeth66]

Just don't do a dual boot. I found that it is easier and cleaner to install Ubuntu to a second hard drive and switch between the OSes from the BIOS. I don't need Windows 7 that often, but it has come in handy.

Re:Do both...

[graphius]

I have found grub to be pretty good, unless you hibernate windows and try to share drives. That would probably still be a problem with separate drives.

Re:Do both...

[nschubach]

If you aren't using Windows for 3D Gaming, but for productivity, I've found it best to just load up Virtualbox and install Windows on a VM. It's also nice to be able to snapshot the install and revert back to a sane state at any time.

Re:Do both...

[Dr_Barnowl]

Hopefully the days of Windows as the sole viable platform for 3D gaming are coming to an end.

Speaking as someone on the Steam beta, TF2 is better on Linux than it is on Windows - I can seamlessly move my pointer from the game, to my browser on the other monitor, even when it's in fullscreen mode - no pointless pointer capture by the application (it still captures when actually playing, just not when browsing servers, etc), no black-screened pause when alt-tabbing out - it may be a psychological thing, but the perceived risk that the game will crash when you do this is much lower as a result.

The only downside is that now there are games on my productivity OS, I don't have a reboot cycle as a barrier to playing them.

Re:Do both...

[X0563511]

I've got W7 on my first disk, linux on the second. Bootloaders are in their respective MBRs.

I have W7's BCD bootloading a 'grub for windows' if desired, which has a single item in it which chainloads the MBR on the second disk. Windows gets it's playpen, Linux gets it's, and there's no fighting.

Used to be I'd just install grub on the first disk MBR, but W7 SP1 wouldn't install because it failed to update the BCD or some silly nonsense like that. Took a reinstall to fix, all the twiddling in the world with the bcd and bootloader wouldn't 'fix' it.

Re:Do both...

[kokojie]

oh geez, you can play TF2 on linux, windows is surely doomed as a gaming platform. Let's ignore the tens of thousands other games that only works on windows.

I've always been baffled

[atari2600a]

Why microsoft never put something in the volume licensing agreement like the ability to give users a one-click option that removes all the bloatware whenever they want.

$1900?

[cashman73]

For $1900 you could get a decent MacBook Pro, no crapware installed! Don't waste that kind of money on Windows (any version),...

Re:$1900?

[Anonymous Coward]

Or just build 3x$600 computers and put your O/S of choice on it and then avoid installing the extra horseshit.

A $2000 Apple was cool when there were only just a hand full of personal computers out there to buy.

Re:$1900?

[Anonymous Coward]

no, it still comes with MacOS (crapware in-and-of-itself), but it comes with plenty of crap on top:

Addressbook, app store, chess, dropbox, DVDPlayer, FaceTime, Font Book, GarageBand, iCal, iChat, Image Capture, iMovie, iPhoto, iTunes, Launchpad, Mail, Quicktime, Safari, Stickies, TextEdit, AirPort Utility, AppleScript Editor, Bluetooth File Exchange, Boot Camp Assistant, DigitalColor Meter, Podcast Capture, Podcast Publisher, VoiceOver Utility, Photo Booth

Re:$1900?

[Rockoon]

Will it have a 27" touch screen?

Re:$1900?

[smash]

Your definition of crapware would seem to include every application that you do not personally use. If that is the case, Linux ships with a heap of crapware (unless you happen to use ALL of those text editors, C compiler, etc), as does Windows, Android, iOS, etc.

All of those apps are fully functional and don't chew memory or CPU when not in use. I think you are confusing crapware with bundled software.

Re:$1900?

[jedidiah]

Linux only comes with what you want to put on it.

It can be as bare or as cluttered as you like. There's a version to suit any taste. This is often portrayed as some sort of vulnerability but it really does allow you to have whatever style of "product" you want.

Crapware is bundled software. It's just that Windows crapware is harder to deal with as software installation is unecessarily complicated on Windows. So cleanup is also harder.

If I don't want pulse, I can just delete it. No Windows style file locking will stop me either.

With Windows the crapware might not just be something inert that only bogs your system down when you go out of your way to start it.

If people weren't so effectively trolled by references to bogeymen like Photoshop and MSOffice, there would have been mass defections years ago. It wouldn't have taken something that doesn't look like a PC.

Re:$1900?

[guruevi]

Unless your OS is Linux, also be prepared to shell out 3x $300 for a 'full' version of your OS. And I don't know any decent computer even hand-built that would cost less than $1200. Sure you CAN build something for $600 but don't compare them to the higher-priced items.

Re:$1900?

[lightknight]

Oh, God, why? Who wants a touch screen, and why? Things are disasters, and murder on the fingers.

Re:$1900?

[smash]

Yes, i'm fully aware of linux being able to be customized - i've spent the past decade and a half building bare bones linux and FreeBSD boxes for use as network monitoring/firewalling/application servers, but if you compare the desktop distributions that people use on the desktop, they are no different to Windows or OS X in terms of bundled software.

I can remove any of the apps i don't want in OS X by just dragging them to the trash - a lot easier than building a Linux box from the command line installing only the software i want with apt-get.

In fact, due to app bundles being self contained on OS X, its a lot easier to install/keep only what you actually want as they don't generally have dependencies.

My point was : bundled software you don't use is different to software that sits in the background consuming resources, spying on you, etc. I'm not sure there's an official definition of "Crapware", but I'd use it to classify useless resource hogging trial software and adware.

Re:$1900?

[Anonymous Coward]

MacOS will popup annoying popups asking you to upgrade many of these, so I'm sure that uses NO resources what-so-ever. No memory or processor used... not wasting any HD space... sure i believe that, can I interest you in a previously new bridge? Price is great!

Re:$1900?

[Anonymous Coward]

Especially 27 inch, to drag from one side to the other you have to pull your arm practically two feet! I bet that's going to get old faster than that Wii from last Christmas...

Re:$1900?

[Anonymous Coward]

Go on, put "Photo Booth.app" in the trash... Don't worry, I'll wait.

Oh? you got a popup which reads "“Photo Booth.app” can’t be modified or deleted because it’s required by Mac OS X."?

Funny, that.

Crapware by design

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows 8 arguably comes with crapware by default, even on a clean install. The Microsoft Store, Bing toolbars, weather and financial tiles, and the abomination that is TIFKAM (the interface formerly known as Metro). Clean and spiffy? I don't think so.

Windows RT is progress

[Anonymous Coward]

Its worth pointing out that in the RT environment (aka modern apps, aka apps with live tiles), those apps are sandboxed by the OS. So they don't drain resources if you don't use them, and they can easily be completely uninstalled. There is still the legacy app issue, but it is a degree of progress.

Bogged down

[Anonymous Coward]

My neighbour recently bought a new laptop which came with Windows 8. First she couldn't figure out how to use it because of the lock screen and Start page. Then she had trouble launching installed apps because there wasn't any Start button. But mostly the big issue was all the crapware. It was a nice piece of hardware, but it was completely bogged down with dozens of trialware and crappy apps. The CPU was constantly running at 95% just to keep up with it all, which made performing any action painfully slow.

Granted, this neighbour isn't particularly tech savvy, but she's not completely lost when it comes to technology. Windows 8, as shipped by the OEM, was a terrible experience for her and I don't think it's one she's likely to repeat. I suspect she'll move to Mac or Linux in the near future.

Re:Bogged down

[xombo]

You sure seem to have an intimate knowledge of this neighbour.

Re:Bogged down

[OldSport]

Christ, the crapware isn't Microsoft's fault, it's the makers of that particular computer. This is a problem on the maker side, not on the OS side. Shit, if third party makers were able to produce Macs commercially you can bet your britches they would be loaded up with crapware, too. This whole debate is moot.

Re:Bogged down

[gmhowell]

You sure seem to have an intimate knowledge of this neighbour.

Broken leg and an excellent camera lens.

Clean Operating System CD?

[pwizard2]

Awhile ago I remember hearing that you could download a clean iso of Windows x directly from Microsoft if you have a valid serial number for whatever version x is. IIRC it was supposed to be an alternative to those shitty reimage discs that OEMS used to give you (or force you to burn at your own cost) but better because they were crapware-free. Can you still do that? (I haven't bought a PC in ages and I'm still using Windows 7 so I'm not sure) The best course of action would be to reload a clean crapware-free version of Windows as soon as you get the iso burned to disc.

Re:Clean Operating System CD?

[Anonymous Coward]

Just google "digitalriver windows download". It's not directly from microsoft but from a microsoft partner.

Re:Clean Operating System CD?

[GuldKalle]

You can still do that, and you don't need a cd key to download.
It's kind of hard to find a link, but it's there. For the record, digitalrivercontent.net is an official MS CDN:
http://www.w7forums.com/official-windows-7-sp1-iso-image-downloads-t12325.html

Re:Clean Operating System CD?

[Anonymous Coward]

No need for the key at all, don't even have to download it from a machine that passes "Genuine" checks, you do however have to put up with Microsoft's ridiculously slow download speeds.

They even have in the related downloads section the stuff you would need to load the image up with whatever software you want included. For example my Windows 7 disc has: Haali Media Splitter, ffdshow-tryouts, AC3filter, DirectVobSub, Win7DSFilterTweaker, various stable codecs, 7zip, as well as a first run script that configures everything. I've had a few customers argue about my choice of Haali over LAV, considering putting a choice for those two in the first run script since their interchangeable, but honestly LAV frustrates me to no end with it's piss poor chapter support.

Re:Clean Operating System CD?

[Anonymous Coward]

As is dreamspark.com for anyone with a .edu email address (although you can only get the OSes now if your edu upgrades their account with them or possibly if you're a student. This includes windows 8 64 bit and server 2012 back to DOS 6.22... but their other applications and suites are still available to all .edu people)

Re:Clean Operating System CD?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sweet, do you have a list like that for Win8?

We all understand the problem well

[erroneus]

This is one of those "it's good to remind people of a pervasive problem" stories. Some people accept this as "status quo" and others see it as a serious problem.

We get it. The business of PCs is stupidly tight with slim margins. The easiest way to supplement profit is to sell software installation services to software vendors. It doesn't bother the OEMs that they are doing this at the expense of the PC customer or even at their own reputation.

Commenter Sussurros above states another obvious problem. Crapware on phones... android phones. And I heartily agree. I think we will see a bit less of it soon though.

Turns out Google is changing the game. I find it FASCINATING that the Google Nexus 4 phones cost between $300 and $350 and yet T-Mobile says it costs a LOT more and will sell it cheaper if you buy two years of obligated service with expensive data plan. What surprises me the most is that T-Mobile thinks they can get away with this... worse! They *are* getting away with it. Google sold out of inventory in minutes. T-Mobile sold out in hours. There are no Nexus 4 phones.

The phone you get from Google is bloatware free and carrier unlocked. I don't know if that's the case with the T-Mobile version... anyone know?

But just as in the PC market, the phone market cannot resist the extra money (even if they are making insane profits already) they make by including crapware.

I decided long ago when my contract is up, I will do this no more. I will have my Nexus 4 when it becomes available again. I'm definitely not buying from those scalpers... sheesh... $500, $600 each?! I know there's a sucker every minute, but I'm not one of them. I'll wait a bit longer... I've got time.

Android has enabled the game to be changed. This is something that ONLY open source software could do. It's not just free software. It's FREEDOM software. I know I'm not alone in my intention. I'll spend a little more up front and save a LOT more in the long run.

I'm done with your games, carriers. Are you listening? Done!

Re:We all understand the problem well

[Kwyj1b0]

The phone you get from Google is bloatware free and carrier unlocked. I don't know if that's the case with the T-Mobile version... anyone know?

But just as in the PC market, the phone market cannot resist the extra money (even if they are making insane profits already) they make by including crapware.

Don't know about T-mobile, but I recently got sick of the contract games and got an Virgin Mobile phone without contract, paying the full price for a phone. And it still had crapware that I couldn't remove. I ended up rooting it days after I got it and put in CM7 (or was it CM10). And this wasn't third party crapware - mainly Google stuff and a few small VM crapware. If I don't want maps/that-shit-known-as-latitude, let me get rid of it. I bought a phone. I paid for the hardware. And I can't remove stuff without rooting?

Re:We all understand the problem well

[Anonymous Coward]

Your sentiment resonates, and I suspect the tides are changing. Verizon wants $70/2gb and I can get $30/5gb through T-Mobile. Both me and my girlfriend have abandoned Verizon for pre-paid carriers. T-Mobile has the advantage of being GSM with better 4G coverage than Virgin.

The carriers have been riding on the coat-tails of high barriers to entry. Now, I don't care if I have the next generation handset because I'm perfectly content with the last generation. My HTC Evo 3D is plenty powerful for anything I could ever want. The only thing I'm missing out on is NFC and maybe some battery life. When the cutting edge is no longer worth the cost premium, people settle for last generation and prices begin to fall. When handsets are cheap enough, carrier subsidies will no longer command the end user's loyalty and they will be forced to compete on quality of service rather than engaging in shenanigans.

Verizon's coverage and phone upgrade lock-in have enabled years of abusive customer hostile practices such as BREW and it gives me great pleasure to fire them as my cellular provider.

Good riddance. I don't have a locked bootloader and I have as much data as I need with no overages. I'm gonna go watch some youtube. Wifi tether for Root users FTW.

Re:We all understand the problem well

[lightknight]

The PC business is not, by its design, one with slim margins. Again, these people have done this to themselves.

If you make a product that is, quite frankly, a photocopy of your nearest competitor, yes, it's going to impact your bottom line. Duh. You want to practice market segmentation not through artificial segmentation, but natural segmentation. You want to offer three levels of product in the desktop world -> a low-end mass version, a medium slightly custom version, and a higher-end pure custom job. The low-end takes care of itself through pure volume, and by choosing the right hardware (stuff that naturally kicks the teeth in of your nearest competitors). Take out a fricking ad if you need to informing customers why your job with a 7200 RPM HD is superior to theirs with a 5400 RPM HD, then laugh as they are stuck with an inventory for HDs that they can't get rid of (sunk capital, and an albatross).

The mid-level people will enjoy that touch of personal service / customization, and the higher-end people expect custom service.

In short, McDonalds, TGI Fridays, and Brasserie Perrier. If you asked for a rare steak at McDonalds, people would call the police ("One of the crazies got out."); if you asked for a hamburger at B-P, they probably do the same ("Probably planning to rob the place.").

Large scale OEMs are trying to offer McDonalds food at B-P prices. No wonder they are feeling the hurt.

Re:We all understand the problem well

[Anonymous Coward]

As far as I can tell, the T-Mobile version is identical to the one sold via Google.

As for the unlocked price difference, I've heard that Google is subsidizing the cost. So LG is selling it for a higher price, and Google is eating the difference. T-Mobile isn't willing to do so, hence the higher price without a contract.

Re:We all understand the problem well

[david_thornley]

The PC business is not, by its design, one with slim margins. Again, these people have done this to themselves.

PCs are now commodities. Given two PCs of similar characteristics, they're pretty well interchangeable. There's no lock-in. My last computer was a Dell, but I could replace it with any similar computer from any manufacturer and hardly notice. This isn't that much the case with fast food restaurants, and higher-level restaurants are even less interchangeable. People have preferences, and it isn't possible to just copy another restaurant.

If HP were to come out with the medium and higher-end PCs you suggest, there's not a thing they could do to stop Dell or Lenovo from coming out with something very similar with a similar cost to manufacture. Back to the thin margins, just on a higher-end PC. The manufacturers can do nothing to counter that, and this business is inherently one of slim margins.

The only exception to this is Apple, partly because they offer their own high-quality OS, and they do not deal in slim margins. People (not typically the Slashdot crowd) will spend extra money on an Apple product because it gives them something they want, and which doesn't cost Apple as much to provide as the people are willing to pay for it. I don't expect anybody else to be able to get that market differentiation, and in the long run I don' t know if Apple can maintain it.

Build Your Own PC.

[Anonymous Coward]

I built my own from Tigerdirect with a copy of Windows 8. None of the crapware listed in the article was on my machine:

http://www.informationweek.com/byte/personal-tech/desktop-operating-systems/crapware-lives-on-windows-8-systems/240012719

However, there were thousands of registry links to Bing services, and the "Apps" that were listed on the desktop were simply HTML links back to Bing. Now that I have worked extensively in the registry, my BluRay actually works, UTC is recognised after using Linux on my other HDD.

A simple keystroke enables or disables UEFI. ClassicShell rescued the desktop. Services have been tweaked. Firewall settings too. Now I can honestly say, that the Windows 8 experience is tolerable (though still inferior to Mint 14).

The New Crapware: Apple’s Desire to Force It

[Andy Prough]

on Customers: http://www.macobserver.com/tmo/article/the-new-crapware-apples-desire-to-force-its-apps-on-customers

Great Specs!

[Anonymous Coward]

Did anyone notice the specs on the $1900 Acer?

Its an all-in-one unit, with a 27" touch screen, 8 GB of RAM, and a 2 GB Nvidia graphics card.

I'll be happy to take that from anyone who doesn't want it. Despite the "crapware".

Re:Great Specs!

[lightknight]

8 GB of RAM for a ~$2K machine? Good luck with that.

Fast.... Finally!

[Anonymous Coward]

Obviously what's needed here is a visit to finallyfast dot com.

Seriously, all computers/devices are throttled by crapware if they come with preloaded software. How is this news/why would you expect something different this time?

Re:Fast.... Finally!

[smash]

Apple machines aren't loaded with crapware.

Re:Fast.... Finally!

[Anonymous Coward]

No. They are crap by design.

Re:Fast.... Finally!

[Anonymous Coward]

lol gud1 dood!!

Need more corez!

[DigiShaman]

How else are you going to justify that i7 CPU? Crapware needs to run on something. Oh, and a little extra left over just for you. Enjoy.

Re:Need more corez!

[smash]

handbrake...

Re:Need more corez!

[lightknight]

Because that all in one job has so much room for all those extra HDs...

Re:Need more corez!

[smash]

? HDs? Handbrake uses all 8 virtual cores on my i7 at 100% if i'm transcoding with it. It is very well threaded, and the task it is performing (video transcoding) is one of those highly parallel tasks.

Nah, this is misleading

[sideslash]

Everything that Windows 8 brings to the table works against bloatware -- for example, Windows 8 Store apps can't monopolize CPU and memory unless the user deliberately launches and is actively running them, generally speaking. Store apps (aka Metro) are very well behaved due to intentional OS constraints. Desktop apps can still be poorly behaved and set themselves to run on startup, phone home, etc., but that's just because Windows 8 is compatible with poorly behaved apps written for previous Windows versions. Microsoft's Windows 8 software logo requirements for desktop apps mandate that apps _not_ add themselves to the "run on startup" registry keys. But that part is not enforced, which was the right call on Microsoft's part. If they made Windows desktop software a walled garden, everybody here would be screaming bloody murder.

tl;dr version: basically Windows 8 brings a substantial improvement against bloatware in that the RT/Metro/Store side protects your CPU/memory resources from being consumed by it; but the legacy desktop side is still an unlocked experience, and vendors can install junk on there if they want to.

Re:Nah, this is misleading

[PCM2]

but the legacy desktop side is still an unlocked experience, and vendors can install junk on there if they want to.

Depends on your definition of "junk." Most of the stuff in the Windows App Store looks like junk to me, just like most of the stuff in most app stores.

Also, your definition of "legacy" must be different than mine. I've been using Windows 8 on a daily basis since shortly after it launched, and I spend all day using desktop apps. I don't really see a way that my workloads can be transferred to TIFKAM apps, either, so I pretty much just ignore the Start Screen most of the time. (FWIW, this is actually very easy to do in Windows 8, despite all the online articles screaming bloody murder about having to put up with it.)

Re:Nah, this is misleading

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows 8 Store apps can't monopolize CPU and memory unless the user deliberately launches and is actively running them, generally speaking.

Translated: Windows 8 implements preemptive mutitasking, but only for Windows 8 Store apps.

Weren't they supposed to have preemptive multitasking back in Windows 95?

Re:Nah, this is misleading

[Anonymous Coward]

The "useful" Windows Store apps are still in the vast minority, agreed. I find it interesting that the MS freebies e.g. music, video, Skype have been updated pretty much weekly and are getting better all the time. Other useful stuff is showing up slowly but surely, for example the Tom's Hardware app is groovy, Nook just released an app that is pretty cool, and the Wikipedia app rocks.

And I second the motion - all of the pissing and moaning about the Start screen is actually quite funny if you have been using the OS for more than, say, five minutes and are in possession of half a brain.

Dare I say it, as I duck my head down, Apple

[Grayhand]

All my Apple preinstalled software is fully functional. On my windows machines if I click on a text file it defaults to Word informing me I need to purchase the software. There's been a reader installed forever but it isn't the default anymore the non functional preview install of Word is the default. It's one of many reasons I weaned myself off Windows and I'm almost exclusively Mac now.

Re:Dare I say it, as I duck my head down, Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

These people are the reason that slashdot sucks now. Can't even set a file association using the simple 'open with...' interface for doing so.

Re:Dare I say it, as I duck my head down, Apple

[OldSport]

Right click > open with > select program and check "always use this program for this kind of file." Just so you know. And you could always, like, uninstall the Word preview if you weren't planning on using it, which would solve the problem as well.

I had a similar problem on my Mac. Fucking iTunes used to try to open every movie I made in iMovie, so then a clicked the mouse a few times and told it not to. Problem solved.

Re:Dare I say it, as I duck my head down, Apple

[Andy Prough]

All my Apple preinstalled software is fully functional. On my windows machines if I click on a text file it defaults to Word informing me I need to purchase the software. There's been a reader installed forever but it isn't the default anymore the non functional preview install of Word is the default. It's one of many reasons I weaned myself off Windows and I'm almost exclusively Mac now.

It's probably a good thing that you "weaned" yourself off Windows. Wouldn't want to learn something impossibly difficult like how to change default programs. That could take all of 4 mouse clicks.

Re:Dare I say it, as I duck my head down, Apple

[smash]

Why should a user have to fuck around with re-associating files to use a machine they just purchased? The issue isn't how difficult it is, the issue is that it needs to be done at all.

Re:Dare I say it, as I duck my head down, Apple

[jonnythan]

If text files open in Word, it's something you set up manually. There's not even an option during Office installation or setup to open text files with Word. Notepad is, and always has been, the default app for .txt files even if you've installed Office.

Fortunately it's easy to fix after you've messed it up. Right click, Open With, Always Open With. Choose Notepad. Done.

Re:Dare I say it, as I duck my head down, Apple

[OldSport]

First, it's common across platforms; second, yes, the issue partially is how difficult it is, because in the grand scheme of things it's about the most minor annoyance you will ever have to deal with in your life. First world problems, anyone? "Meeeh, my computer keeps trying to open Word when I want to open the file in Notepad, I had to actually click the mouse three times to stop it, meeeeeeeh". I'm a person who usually stands on his principles but fuck me, this is meta-complaining at its finest.

Re:Dare I say it, as I duck my head down, Apple

[csumpi]

Apple does its own evil. iCloud in every menu. Facebook, Twitter everywhere. And those can't be removed with a clean install of the OS.

ML by default is set to not allow installation of applications that were not purchased through the app store or not signed with an apple certificate. I know this setting can be changed, but they are obviously banking on most people not knowing how to do that.

Then there's iTunes. I guess there's no need to go into detail about that one.

BTW, both notepad and wordpad are completely free, and wordpad is a functional document editor. If you are talking about office trial, just uninstall it.

Re:Dare I say it, as I duck my head down, Apple

[csumpi]

It's not an easy task if you don't know that the mouse has more than one buttons, and clicking the one on the right opens up a menu.

I helped a friend with restoring iPhoto on her macbook (she dragged the icon to the trash to remove it from the dock or eject it or whatever). After it was done, I showed her that is she presses the trackpad at a certion location, she gets a menu where she can remove icons from the dock. She was astounded, and told me that this revelation opened up a whole new dimension for her.

Re:Dare I say it, as I duck my head down, Apple

[csumpi]

This goes both ways. Why does image capture open when I hook up my phone for charging on the mac and why do I have to hunt for some obscure pulldown to turn it off? Or why do function keys not work as function keys unless they are set to work as function keys in keyboard preferences? Or why does the scroll wheel on the mouse work backwards?

Re:Dare I say it, as I duck my head down, Apple

[LordLimecat]

Youre calling Mac Mail "functional", are you?

Re:Dare I say it, as I duck my head down, Apple

[smash]

First time you plug the phone in, it ASKS YOU what you want to do with the device when you plug it in. Try again.

Re:Dare I say it, as I duck my head down, Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

my Apple

Right click

Easy there, if you want to show that Windows isn't as hard as Apple users make it out to be, you don't start out with such complicated things.

Re:Dare I say it, as I duck my head down, Apple

[LordLimecat]

I actually kind of like having the Office preview preinstalled, since with about 3 clicks you have a functional ad-supported version, or with 3 clicks can remove it, or 3 clicks can activate it with the product code that everyone generally has.

You see, the MAJORITY of people who get new computers actually WANT office on it, seeing as its one of the most popular computer programs out there. Would it be "easier" on the user if they had to go download the whole 500MB package?

Re:Dare I say it, as I duck my head down, Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

Off-topic, arising from your example: the ability to set which program opens a certain file type happens to be currently 10000% broken in Debian Squeeze's Gnome Commander and appears to have been broken for *years*. I can only surmise that whoever maintains the GC source never wants to open jpegs with something useful like Geeqie instead of the staggeringly god-awful, valium-slow Eye of Gnome. A google search reveals that people have been complaining about EoG sluggishness since 2009. Why not use the default fm, Nautilus? Because it is SLOW, even on a new i3 laptop, slow enough for me to consider it broken. Don't try to manage a million files with that PoS. I tried to checkout the dev source for GC in case they'd fixed it, but it wouldn't compile, and I'm a bit past being bothered trying to solve that.

Here we have a key system (Debian Stable) using a key program (GC file manager) aimed at power users (important Debian market segment) that has left an expected functionality totally broken in a stable distribution.

I love Linux, but this sort of thing shits me. But it's not unexpected. I've worked with a few former Gnome guys - they did not talk about making light, fast, efficient, fit for purpose software. To my mind, that should be all they focus on instead of rampant de-featuring and unacceptable performance with sluggish code. I hate to say it but Gnome deserves to die.

Windows 8

[Anonymous Coward]

is the crapware.

Re:Windows 8

[unixisc]

Can they make StartX one of the pieces of crapware, so that Windows 8 is actually usable?

Disable it

[Namarrgon]

As of Ice Cream Sandwich:

- Settings / Apps / All
- Select the unwanted app/service
- Click Disable.

It's still in ROM of course, but it won't show up in the App Draw, it won't be started on boot, and it won't consume any memory or CPU time.

Re:Disable it

[Sussurros]

The apps I want to remove mostly don't appear and the ones that do have neither the uninstall nor disable options when I select them. They do have the uninstall updates option which is a worry because I have never updated them. No, Windows still wins the crapware war.

Re:Disable it

[SternisheFan]

If your android is rooted, download "DroidWall" firewall app. Let's you whitelist/block any app from accessing the net.

Re:Disable it

[Namarrgon]

Unfortunately, carriers still have the ability to get into the source code and nerf this feature, forcing you to keep any bloatware they're especially keen on pushing :-( Verizon appears to be particularly guilty of this.

There are OEM-customised versions of Windows too, but thankfully we've been spared that level of "customisation".

Re:Disable it

[h4rr4r]

If you press uninstall updates the button will then say disable. Then press that and you are good to go.
Android 4.2 fixes this by making them separate buttons.

Re:Disable it

[h4rr4r]

Name one 4.0 phone Verizon has done this too.
All that I know of have uninstall updates that turns into disable.

Re:Disable it

[Sussurros]

Now that does work!

Thank you.

Re:Disable it

[Anonymous Coward]

Read what Namarrgon posted. He is not telling you to:

- Play Store
- Stare blankly at missing uninstall

The applications in question were not installed from the play store, so they might not don't appear there or if they do, don't have a Disable button.

Go into the Settings; everything will be there.

Re:Disable it

[Anonymous Coward]

The seperate button still wants you to uninstall any updates.

Re:Disable it

[h4rr4r]

Yeah, but it sure appears a lot clearer.

Really it should just run uninstall updates when it does the disable though in that case.

Don't blame Windows

[Anonymous Coward]

Blame greedy OEMs.

Wait, you read TFA?

[Anonymous Coward]

Who does that anymore?

The Windows ecosystem is broken

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's why the Windows ecosystem is broken by Dwight Silverman, Friday, August 24, 2007

Just uninstall it

[OldSport]

Is it annoying? I guess so... I don't really get my panties in a bunch about it; I just uninstall it and then I never have to deal with it again. Basic computer literacy, really.

Re:Just uninstall it

[antdude]

Uninstalls don't always clean well and tend to leave left overs behind. :(

Re:Just uninstall it

[OldSport]

Gee, you're right, I better go spend an extra $1000 on a Mac.

Re:Just uninstall it

[antdude]

Macs aren't any better. They leave configurations behind. :P

Re:Just uninstall it

[csumpi]

When you get your mac for the extra $1000, please come back and tell us how to remove the icloud, itunes, facebook and twitter integration crap from osx. Because that's no better than the office trial. And until you tell us how to, it can't even be removed.

Re:Just uninstall it

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

Just don't use it. Don't sign in with your twitter,Facebook or iCloud accounts.

Jeez.

Also, it shouldn't be basic computer literacy to take a wire brush to your computer the second you ill it out of the box, or have to pave and start over from scratch.

That's a shame.

Re:Just uninstall it

[Billly Gates]

It is true. Even on my asus with just a few included apps I have discovered the OEM disks rewipe offer supperior startup. Even if you uninstall McAfee still runs as it is a rootkit itself and runs scans which slow down the system.

Re:Just uninstall it

[Anonymous Coward]

Uninstalls don't always clean well and tend to leave left overs behind. :(

If they are talking about Windows 8 apps here, they have a new self-contained app model that shouldn't have these issues. On my Android phone though, I'm not even allowed to uninstall all the bundled crapware..

Re:Just uninstall it

[Anonymous Coward]

When you get your mac for the extra $1000, please come back and tell us how to remove the icloud, itunes, facebook and twitter integration crap from osx. Because that's no better than the office trial. And until you tell us how to, it can't even be removed.

Just don't use it. Don't sign in with your twitter,Facebook or iCloud accounts.

So, you admit that OSX comes with crapware that can't be removed...

Thanks for the warning. At least a Windows 7 clean install is free of that crap.

Re:Just uninstall it

[lightknight]

And it shouldn't be basic business literacy to suspect that the company you bought your new PC from might be scheming to make a little extra money off of you, but it is.

Re:Just uninstall it

[Anonymous Coward]

launchcl -w unload com.apple.twitter.plist

Re:Just uninstall it

[LordLimecat]

But Mac comes with its own crapware preinstalled. Mac Mail, iTunes, Safari....

Re:Just uninstall it

[Inda]

And for extra irony, there are programs out there that remove all those left overs. The one I've used in the past comes as a 30-day trial. Sorry, I forget its name.

It also removed programs like "Clean My PC", which I why I got it. Click-happy friends are no friends at all.

Re:Just uninstall it

[Anonymous Coward]

Some installers don't even...y'know...friggin' uninstall! Sometimes the uninstallers get corrupted and can't run, they nearly always leave their DLLs behind, and most don't even bother trying to clean up the side-by-side cache.

I had a machine with nearly 30GB of (ahem) "uninstalled software" in the Windows SxS folder - there aren't even tools that let you clean that mess up. If I had my SSD at that point I'd be wasting nearly all of it on unusable and unremovable crapware junk.

Re:Just uninstall it

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

The difference being is that Facebook/Twitter/iCloud integration doesn't pop up to remind you that you haven't signed into your facebook/twitter/iCloud account and to renew now! Oh and give some third party money. Lots and lots of money.

Nor is it running a disk thrashing background process that can slow your machine to a crawl if you're not on an SSD.

So, yes. It is much better than the office trial, or the AV trial, or the trial for whatever online services come packed in.

It's a system feature, not crapware. By that token Windows 8 comes with crapware because it wants you to log into SkyDrive.

Re:Just uninstall it

[Anonymous Coward]

Nuke it from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

Re:Just uninstall it

[Anonymous Coward]

Eh, what you're saying is just words that could mean anything to anyone. What OldSport needs is proof.

OldSport. Get the computer, and uninstall McAfee. Lemme know how that works out for you, and how long it takes.

Re:Just uninstall it

[dan325]

Macs aren't any better. They leave configurations behind. :P

except that Macs don't come with crapware preloaded.

Nor do iPhones for that matter.

I also discovered that Dell doesn't put (much) crapware on their Precision line. I bought a Precision laptop a few months ago and it had a few harmless Dell utilities and one trial version of TrendMicro which I could have avoided had I been paying attention to the custom build configuration. (You can turn the TrendMicro trial off) The Precision is a very solid machine and virtually no crapware. Can't say the same for the equivalent Lenovo. I ordered a ThinkPad W530 (an *expensive* machine) for a coworker and it came preloaded with as much crap as you'd expect on a $500 Acer laptop.

Re:Just uninstall it

[antdude]

But we want to get rid of them off our drives!

Basic Psychology

[high_rolla]

The thing is, when they sell to a corporate this doesn't matter. The corporation just creates their own image and drops that on every machine as standard.

The next largest market is not us techies but Joe average. Now yes, they do make money by pre installing this crapware but it also gives them an advantage. On the packaging they can show off that their machine comes preinstalled with this large list of software (highlighting various well known names). Joe average will tend to make his purchasing decision based on which machine has the largest list of features and the biggest numbers (works the same for stereos, TV's, etc). That's why all this tech comes packed with useless features that more often than not reduce the experience and performance. If you want to outsell the competition, sadly, this approach works.

This is why this trend is not going to change anytime soon.

You can win by not taking this approach (and Apple is probably the best example of this) but your product has to be well polished and typically you will be aiming for the upper market who more often than not doesn't fall for these marketing tricks.

Re:Basic Psychology

[couchslug]

"The corporation just creates their own image and drops that on every machine as standard."

That's also basic preparedness for many techies and there are plenty of tools to help. Load it, tweak it, image it, and when it breaks you can swiftly reload and be back to work.

Re:Basic Psychology

[steelfood]

Joe average will tend to make his purchasing decision based on which machine has the largest list of features and the biggest numbers (works the same for stereos, TV's, etc).

I've been burned more than once when I bought something that didn't list a particular obvious and supposedly-ubiquitous feature, and ended up with a product that didn't have that feature.

The feature list never tells you what the product cannot do, only what it can do. Trying to figure out what it doesn't do is like trying to prove a negative.

So nowadays, if a feature is not on the list (and there's no further information on it online, which is not as easy to come by as you might think), I don't buy it.

So "Nuke and Pave", this (was) a geek site.

[couchslug]

I expect crapware. Blow away the OS and install from clean .isos using appropriate tools. I'll not detail it here, the internet is your friend.

OS replacement should be trivial for nearly every Slashdotter. Back in 1999 they even discussed such things in these very forums. (Now get off my lawn, though given continental drift it's probably somewhere in the Marianas Trench...)

If you don't know how, MANY nice folks on many forums offer their expertise for the reading. (Google "My Digital Life forums")

If you don't WANT to know how, Fark is that >>>> way.

Re:So "Nuke and Pave", this (was) a geek site.

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

Sure, every good slashdotter should know this.

The problem is, this is a problem across the board for the electronics industry as a whole. The center can not hold. Morons are running the ship. Including Apple.

Re:So "Nuke and Pave", this (was) a geek site.

[Anonymous Coward]

Fark is that >>>> way.
First site to the right, and then straight on till morning.

Complain about crapware

[mysidia]

But I bet if they offered you a more expensive version with no crapware, you'd take the crapware, and clean it yourself, and be happy you saved the money.

The crapware makers subsidize the PC makers; without those extra marketing deals from all those companies, the new Windows 8 PC would be about as expensive as an Apple.

Re:Complain about crapware

[Billly Gates]

What you do not see is that many users after having what you described are switching to Apple.

You claim people want cheap but most want something reasonable and an IPAD mini is a better bet. Such OEMs might save for the quarter to boast its share price but in the long term lose.

Re:Complain about crapware

[Custard Horse]

What is needed is a live 'de-shitinator' disc which will allow you to get rid of the bloat in one fell swoop. At least it should be an option - a download link perhaps?

FUD

[mug funky]

anyone read that list?

spotify was mentioned twice. minesweeper and solitaire were included.

also, all crapware from all territories appears to have been added to the same list and presented as "this is what you'll get".

consider what comes out-of-the-box on an ubuntu installation.

i'm not defending crapware at all - i hate it. but a strong case against it is not made by misrepresentation or outright lying.

Re:FUD

[TangoMargarine]

1. The main point of the summary was that they're trial versions, presumably trying to sell you the product/subscription. I don't believe hardly any Ubuntu programs are trying to sell you stuff (other than maybe Ubuntu One, if they're still doing that).

2. J Random Program on Ubuntu is probably easier to uninstall. Just "apt-get uninstall X".

Re:FUD

[mug funky]

i was talking about the article, not the summary... i know time is money and all.

MY main point was that things like minesweeper come out of the box on most every OS you're likely to find. things like skype and spotify, though could be considered crapware, are often among the first things i install when setting up a new system.

Not all OEM installed software is crap

[Anonymous Coward]

Most of it is, I'll give you that. OTOH, my ThinkPad came with some unusual processes running. When I checked into them I found one that checks for shocks and moves the hard drive r/w head to a safe place. Just removing everything that's "not Windows" might not be such a good idea. BTW, I never thought about that little service until I tried to play MP3s through the laptop while driving. It wouldn't work because bumps on the road were enough to throttle the drive and mess up playback. I was annoyed that I had to have another device for MP3s, but glad to know that software was doing its job.

Re:Not all OEM installed software is crap

[Anonymous Coward]

Foam pad your laptop next time.

Re:Not all OEM installed software is crap

[Anonymous Coward]

Not worth it and it probably wouldn't have dampened the acceleration enough. I ended up getting a dedicated MP3 player, which I kind of wanted anyway. It could play in the car, or while walking as an added bonus. The stupid thing didn't last anywhere near as long as the laptop has. Times are tough so I do without now.

there's big money in crapware

[sdnoob]

the big PC makers make a ton of money off those crapware distribution deals.. they make money on windows in the end, which is why you won't find a no-OS or linux PC from any of them for the same price as a windows one of the same model and specs...

i suspect windows 8 will be *worse* than earlier versions, due to having two separate user interfaces to pollute instead of just one.

Re:there's big money in crapware

[WGFCrafty]

And in the thirties I would have expected that car accidents would scale equally with the numbers of cars. However, I would be wrong.

Your last statement is "I have absolutely no experience with this publicly available software but here is my prediction." Meaningless.

Re:there's big money in crapware

[Anonymous Coward]

You can find machines without Windows just not in any first-world country. I got a new Samsung netbook in Thailand with FreeDOS installed. FreeDOS and nothing else.

Re:there's big money in crapware

[jawtheshark]

You cam get Windows-free OEM machines in Germany.(e.g. www.alternate.de has a selection) I think that qualifies as 1st world.

(un)Hol Crap(ware) BatMensch!!!!

[Crypto Gnome]

"The crapware issue is so bad that Microsoft even has "Signature"-branded PCs whose biggest selling point is the lack of trialware. An upgrade that costs a crazy $99."

Yes folks, for a measly hundred bux we'll be slightly less offensive.

Crapware on PCs is kinda like The Shouty Man in advertisements. Sure they're so in-yer-face that we notice them, but our *only* reaction is "screw that!".

Seriously folks, for the price of a cheap-n-nasty USB stick you could make ALL this "crapware" infinitely less abusive-relationship by having your default browser homepage be a "here's all the stuff we *gave* you, clicky linky to install what you like".

(a) not in your face offensive
(b) easy to hit the "tell someone who cares" button
(c) doesn't by-default bloat your machine (especially good for business users)
(d) Free USB Stick (!!!)

All That AND not pissing off your customers.

Re:(un)Hol Crap(ware) BatMensch!!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

"The crapware issue is so bad that Microsoft even has "Signature"-branded PCs whose biggest selling point is the lack of trialware. An upgrade that costs a crazy $99."

Yes folks, for a measly hundred bux we'll be slightly less offensive.

That's one way of looking at it. The other way is that the vendors of the actual crapware are subsidizing $99 of the cost of the system for you.

Nothing to Do With Windows

[AaronLS]

I would like to differentiate where the problem is, and provide suggestions on how people can avoid this problem.

This is a problem with buying from certain manufacturers/retailers who add bloatware. Simply don't support this practice with your purchases. It has nothing to do with the OS. Linux and Android are just as susceptible to this if not more since the OS is open source, such as when wireless providers modify the Android OS itself(rather than simply adding applications) which can cripple the OS with bloated features, instability, or poorly designed UI. In this case you can't simply uninstall an app to undo the problem, but usually must flash the device. I'm not saying the OS being open source is a bad thing; I'm just pointing out how some carriers abuse this.

Examples of how to avoid bloatware(for phones or computers).
Phones:
-Only buy phones which come with the stock/vanilla Android OS. I personally prefer the Nexus devices for this reason. Additionally, these devices usually will have OS updates available earlier than others.
-If your phone does have a lot of bloatware, something like Cyanogen mod(if supported on your phone) can give you a OS with less bloat and more freedom. I actually flashed my Nexus One with Cyanogen and freed up alot of internal memory. Even my stock Nexus One had slowly become bloated with apps that I didn't need over time like Twitter, which came along with OS updates and could not be moved off internal storage or uninstalled. I went from 5 mb free internal storage(which is a serious problem) to 100 mb free internal storage.

Computers:
-Sometimes you can call sales and request that you get only the stock OS on your computer or laptop. I know businesses have been able to request Dell laptops be provided this way.
-Build your own computer or buy barebone, and load the stock OS yourself.
-Take note of bloatware when using other's computers, or go to a store where the model is setup and you can test drive. Take note of which manufacturers have the most OEM bloatware. If you are used to helping other's with their computers, it is usually pretty obvious what apps are things they didn't install, and are bloatware.
-Be wary of a computer that advertises lots of free software. If it is really full version software, then you are paying for its cost somewhere in the price of the computer. Better to buy a computer without this hidden cost, and use the savings to buy the software that you pick out(instead of the OEM's choices). If it is only trial software, then maybe the computer is a very tiny bit cheaper as a result, and your time is probably worth more than the trouble of dealing with the bloatware and "Trial Expired" popups. So either way, avoid bundled software. I don't even like bundled antivirus.

Re:Nothing to Do With Windows

[AaronLS]

I would like to add that this isn't an imagine problem with open source OS's. It is very rampant with the Android OS with carrier often doing incompotent things to the OS or adding bloatware that has the ability to uninstall/move to SD disabled. IMO this is the only thing that puts Android phones at a disadvantage to iPhones. It amazes me that I have so few problems with my Android, but someone can hand me their Android(because they are having some problem) and I feel like I'm using a different/substandard OS.

I feel like Google or the Android community needs to institute some sort of Android User Freedom certification, which certifies carrier builds after a review. I.e., all non essential apps must have uninstallation available, some standards on usability/interface, etc. There'd be alot to work out in the standard. Then the local geeks, when asked by friends/family for suggestions, can simply say "Buy a phone with the Android User Freedom logo".

I think this would go further in reducing fragmentation than some of Google's other efforts, and improve the quality/consistency of the Android ecosystem.

misleading article title

[smash]

Windows 8 isn't throttled with crapware. Certain vendor PCs are throttled with crapware.

Re:misleading article title

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft could forbid selling Windows PCs with crapware. They don't. They're just as guilty as the OEMs.

Re:misleading article title

[smash]

So if I don't forbid users from compiling malware on my OS, i'm just as guilty as the guys writing the malware?

By that thinking someone should be suing the shit out of Linus, because the vast majority of skript kiddie exploits out there use Linux as the host OS to launch them from.

Windows...isn't that crapware to begin with?

[Anonymous Coward]

Need anyone say any more?

so glad i use mac for work and pleasure

[Anonymous Coward]

...and they laughed when i got a digital art degree, suck it cubicle plebs!

Re:It's Windows

[Anonymous Coward]

Unless you are a linux user, you are the dumbest sumbitch on this site. Crapple Cripple is worse unless you are and idiot or 90 years old.

Re:why Norton Internet Security or McAfee Internet

[Anonymous Coward]

Because of anti-trust issues, also so they can scare money out of people. They are the most legal scare-ware availible.

I remember an anti-virus vendor complaining about Microsoft implementing tools to make their OS more secure.

If you don't want crapware ...

[sfarber53]

Don't buy Microsoft.

Redmond sucks up so much money from consumers that hardware makers are almost forced to load all that garbage just to survive.

I won't deal with M$. Neither should anyone else who really cares about computing.

Refresh Windows

[Anonymous Coward]

Has anyone tried the Refresh Windows or Reinstall options in PC Settings -> General? Does this remove the crapware, or is the crapware integrated into the install source?

I build my own PC

[stevez67]

And I load the OS (Windows 8 Pro) clean ... no bloatware no crapware. But there's no way the average computer user will do anything but buy off-the-shelf machines loaded with bloat/crapware.

Come again? But yes

[TheGoodNamesWereGone]

You lost me at Metro being "clean and spiffy," but you're right otherwise. I give it one or two years before some bright bulb dreams up an OS or even hardware to force feed advertising to the user, all the while claiming it reduces costs... Consoles already do.

Re:Come again? But yes

[eheldreth]

I introduce to you the all new add supported Kindle Fire. Yes you too can get $15, that's FIFTEEN DOLLARS off the price of your new Kindle Fire if you agree to receive their "special offers". Thank you Amazon for leading the way. http://www.amazon.com/Kindle-Fire-Amazon-tablet/dp/B0083Q04IQ

Its worth it

[ArchieBunker]

I rooted my Optimus V for that very reason. The internal storage was full from just a handful of apps installed by me. It got to the point where apps could no longer update. Someone was nice enough to include all the rooting tools in a zipfile with a batch file to walk you through. After that get Titanium Backup and uninstall what you want. Just be careful because some apps are needed by the OS.

Re:Its worth it

[gfxguy]

I have one of those and am hit with the low memory problem all the time. I'll have to take a look into rooting it - there is so much crap you can't uninstall (and I don't know why you can't move a lot of apps, even 3rd party ones, to the SD card). I just don't want to screw it up.

Re:It's Windows

[csumpi]

My 5 year old daughter wants the tablet and brush from this Windows 8 commercial. Does she qualify for your all in caps comment?

PC Decrapifier

[flyingfsck]

It works: http://the-pc-decrapifier.en.softonic.com/

Re:PC Decrapifier

[PNutts]

It works:
http://the-pc-decrapifier.en.softonic.com/

Ironic that they use a download manager.

why cry over spilled milk, or rancid in this case

[Anonymous Coward]

format, install clean windows 8 enterprise, download drivers and install drivers only.
throw away recovery disk from manufacturer and learn to keep the PC clean

no need to complain.

Re:why Norton Internet Security or McAfee Internet

[LordLimecat]

Because Symantec and McAfee are businesses whose goal is to make money, regardless of how relevant they are. Theyre actually quite good at what they do, your mistake is thinking that "what they do" is to provide solutions.

Crapware

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow! So Evernote, HULU, Netflix, Kindle, Solitaire (and other card games) are all crapware? And Skype is crapware? I guess if you are a MSFT /Windows hater, then that is all crapware. How many of the few Linux users downloads most of this stuff? And IOS users? I must love crapware as I have Skype, Amazon, Kindle, HULU, Netflix, Belarc Advisor, WeatherBug, SecuniPSI all on my systems. All garbage, but then I like living in a dump

That isnt a Windows issue, It is the manufacturer.

[Anonymous Coward]

Your first problem was buying an Acer.
I still associate Acer with 3rd rate manufacturers like Packard Bell, eMachines and Gateway.

Granted there is not a 100% awesome answer and it really boils down to personal preference;
but you are much better off with HP, Dell, Toshiba and Lenovo. In between lies Sony. I suggest Asus too.

For a PC, build your own rig, go to a Ma and Pa shop and get something suited to your needs if you are not inclined to build.

The only thing I do not build are laptops. I wish there was a standard so I could though.

you don't want a $20 PSU in any system

[Joe_Dragon]

you don't want a $20 PSU in any system.

That is the one of the worst places to cheap out and lot's of the low end Walmart PC do have shit PSU's in them.

Re:you don't want a $20 PSU in any system

[crutchy]

psu's are surprisingly expensive given that most modern decent systems need at least 700W

i find that oem boxes will come with the minimum required for installed hardware, leaving no room for upgrading

fortunately even if i spend $100 on a half decent psu i'll still finish up trumps compared to an equivalent spec'ed oem box

those who reckon oem is cheaper are merely the dupes trying to justify being ripped off

Re:you don't want a $20 PSU in any system

[Anonymous Coward]

psu's are surprisingly expensive given that most modern decent systems need at least 700W

WTF does that come from??? 700W? Are you kidding me?

CPU - 65-120W, tops
Add another 100W for mobo and HD and optical drive, tops.

Where is the next 500W? 2x GTX 690s??

90+% efficiency APF correction power supplies are about $100. Are these top-of-the-line units with 5-7 year warranty the "half-decent" ones? Half-decent ones cost $35-50 and come with 3 year warranties.

Re:you don't want a $20 PSU in any system

[Ancient123]

Uh... Why do you need a 700W PSU? I am running a 750 because I have a machine with a large number of drives, a power hungry CPU (i7 920) , and a power hungry GPU (GTX 570) . Most normal gamer builds are in the 500W or lower category these days.

Re:you don't want a $20 PSU in any system

[lightknight]

*looks around*

Why not?

I mean, it's not like a 1.5 kW power supply is going to actually run at 1500 Watts if the components hanging off of it only demand 200 Watts. It just means that it can deliver 1.5 kW if needed; when you factor in the cost savings of several successive upgrades with the same case / power supply, the fact that a 1.5 kW power supply is probably supplying cleaner power than a 200 W power supply, and that energy requirements, in general, increase with most new generations of processors / GPUs...why would you ever buy a power supply without extra capacity? Do you like buying an entirely new power supply every time you add-in an extra hard drive? That's just so...wasteful. And expensive.

And yet there are a frightening number of people who believe that their power supply will run at the labelled wattage all the time, and try to 'save money' by getting one with only 50 Watts or less in capacity...like they're putting their machine on a diet or something ("I have to restrict its intake, or it'll just gobble up all the power it can" -> electricity does not work that way, at least when it comes to computers).

And don't make me laugh about what suffice as a 'gamer' build these days. A sorrier lot of machines I have not seen. "Dude, I got an Intel i5 2.2Ghz, with 4 GBs of G. Skill RAM, a 64 GB Intel SSD drive, and one of those 2 TB 'Green/5400 RPM' drives, topped off with a ATI Radeon HD7430! I am a total gamer now! I can play Portal 1 with 2xAA!" Bong, someone save me from these types; these machines barely suffice as budget machines, not gamer, and not definitely developer (back when that ranked somewhere on the hierarchy). And no, machine you use for gaming != gaming machine.

Let me help you out. A "gaming machine" is going to be packed with the latest / top of the line in hardware. That means if you are not rocking at least a ATI Radeon 7970, a 7990, or last year's 6990 (or whatever it was called), or whatever Nvidia is offering in its top ranks, it is not a gaming machine. If you are not rocking a processor from the top tier of whatever Intel or AMD is currently offering, or was offering as top tier a year ago, again, it is not a gaming machine. If the mouse / keyboard doesn't have waaaaay too many buttons, many of whose functions you have never actually discovered, it is not a gaming machine. If you do not have a discrete sound card (yes, that still matters), it is not a gaming machine. The hard drives would normally be mandated as SSD of some unthinkable size, but since Steam has (only recently) supposedly gotten their acts together with the whole 'storing games on a different hard drive,' I think we can give it a pass (for now) with having a 7200 RPM hard drive (again, only for now, as even the 10,000 RPM HDs don't have enough space for a full Steam collection...which is quietly eating one of my 3TB drives). Unless I am forgetting anything, I think we can establish that as a reasonable baseline for a 'gaming PC,' since it has been the baseline for over a decade.

And a decent development machine, so far as you are concerned, will have a second monitor, as well as much RAM as the motherboard can reasonably hold without resorting to some soldering / reprogramming of various previously non-reprogrammable components.

A network admin machine will probably be sporting 3 monitors, usually with a console or command line open on at least one of them.

Workstations fall into their own category, which I shall not digress into, as do servers. In either case, with the singular exceptions of the video cards offered with the workstations, I have not been impressed with the various offerings.

Re:you don't want a $20 PSU in any system

[Anonymous Coward]

Having experienced it 3 times, its not about power. It's about will the psu blow up and burn your house down because they bought the cheapest electrolytic capacitors they could find. A $20 supply is a ticking bomb.

Re:you don't want a $20 PSU in any system

[alexhs]

One word : Efficiency.
Some PSU calculators are actually good. With this one, for a system you're defining as a "real" gaming one (i7-3820, RadeonHD 7970, 3 sticks of DDR3, 2 high-rpm SATA HD, 1 DVD-RW/DVD+RW Drive, Sound Blaster, 2 120mm fans) and for that they recommend 487W, so with 550W you still have spare capacity. See ? Ancient123 gave you sound advice and doesn't need to be told what a gaming machine is.
Now, of course, you need to factor in that cheap PSU tend to advertize input wattage while reputable brands advertize sustained output wattage (but you better read the charts to be sure anyway).

Re:you don't want a $20 PSU in any system

[Anonymous Coward]

Random tale:
Two PC builds ago, I bought a fancy-schmanzy PSU.
It was like 600W or higher.
Reputable company.

It crapped out in under 2 months.

I went to a local store, and bought 2 Made-in-Taiwan $15 PSUs.

To this day, those two PSUs are powering my workstation at home... almost 24/7.

It's just an individual anecdote.... yet I'm sold on $15 PSUs from now on.

Cheers!

Re:you don't want a $20 PSU in any system

[MachineShedFred]

2002 called, and wants it's Pentium-4 based computer back. 700 Watts? You realize that the highest power draw CPU Intel makes in the Ivy Bridge line only pulls 77W, right? I suppose you're one of those guys who needs like 4 video cards all interleaved together so you can squeeze out that extra 5 frames per second that your eyeball can't even register? Or are firing up 15 hard drives at once without using a halfway decent RAID controller that can do staggered spin-up?

Re:you don't want a $20 PSU in any system

[Bengie]

7000watt? Are you running 3 GPUs?

http://www.legitreviews.com/article/1924/9/

Overclocked 4.7ghz Intel i7 pulling 220watt/hr at the wall. Throw on a 200watt GPU and you have under 450watt peak. Few applications outside of distributed number-crunching and peg a multi-core CPU or GPU.

My 5 year old computer sits around 15% cpu and 8% GPU when getting 60+FPS in EvE/WoW and similar CPU and about 30%-60% GPU when playing FPS games with 4x AA @ 1080p at ultra settings.

More modern CPUs and GPUs consume even less power. The newer model GPU in the same price range is rated for nearly 1/2 the TDP and almost double the performance. The similar newer model for my CPU is about 2/3 the TDP, but about 1/5 the idle and about 6x the peak performance.

Next year, Intel's new high-end CPU is ging to be rated for around 20-40watt TDP and around 250milliwatt idle

Tell me again how modern computers need these 700watt PSUs.

Re:you don't want a $20 PSU in any system

[Bengie]

Random tale of my friend: He purchased a 450watt cheap PSU and it ran hot for a few months then burned out. He swapped it out for a 250watt namebrand PSU and the system ran another 5 years.

Goto http://www.jonnyguru.com/ or http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/ and read some PSU reviews. HWSecrets has a really good article somewhere on the different ways to measure a PSU.

I now look for low-heat and jitter under above-rated load while maintaining excellent efficiency.

Re:you don't want a $20 PSU in any system

[JDG1980]

Let me help you out. A "gaming machine" is going to be packed with the latest / top of the line in hardware. That means if you are not rocking at least a ATI Radeon 7970, a 7990, or last year's 6990 (or whatever it was called), or whatever Nvidia is offering in its top ranks, it is not a gaming machine. If you are not rocking a processor from the top tier of whatever Intel or AMD is currently offering, or was offering as top tier a year ago, again, it is not a gaming machine. If the mouse / keyboard doesn't have waaaaay too many buttons, many of whose functions you have never actually discovered, it is not a gaming machine. If you do not have a discrete sound card (yes, that still matters), it is not a gaming machine. The hard drives would normally be mandated as SSD of some unthinkable size, but since Steam has (only recently) supposedly gotten their acts together with the whole 'storing games on a different hard drive,' I think we can give it a pass (for now) with having a 7200 RPM hard drive (again, only for now, as even the 10,000 RPM HDs don't have enough space for a full Steam collection...which is quietly eating one of my 3TB drives). Unless I am forgetting anything, I think we can establish that as a reasonable baseline for a 'gaming PC,' since it has been the baseline for over a decade.

What nonsense. The overwhelming majority of gamers don't need any of that crap. Think about it – if games couldn't run well on reasonably inexpensive hardware, no one would bother developing them, because the sales figures wouldn't be worth it.

For the vast majority of gamers, a $200-$250 video card (Geforce GTX660 or Radeon 7850/7870) will be more than enough. Discrete sound cards are a waste of money; they offer nothing that the built-in units don't. At best you might get slightly higher quality on the analog output, but if you really care that much about sound quality, you'd pipe the SPDIF or HDMI digital output to a real receiver and run quality speakers off of that.

Let's be honest, most people who buy massively overspecced gaming rigs do so just to show off how much money they have and/or how technically savvy they are.

Re:you don't want a $20 PSU in any system

[Psyborgue]

Not sure if I agree with you on needing to have the top-of-the line GPUs. My partner's box has twin GTX 460s in SLI and it can play most anything in 1080p with everything cranked up to the max. It's only very recently with some games using tessellation and displacements that it's dropping a few frames, but we're still talking about 50+ FPS, which is very playable. I'd still call it a gaming rig. I'm also not sure i'd agree about needing a top-of-the line processor. A fast i5 will suffice for most anything as very few, if any, games really utilize the extra features of the i7. Totally agree with you about the PSU, though. Why not, indeed. Better to have room to grow.

Re:you don't want a $20 PSU in any system

[lordofthechia]

If it was a reputable company, then they would have had at least a 1 year warranty. That said I have bought $20 psu's (with the pretty lights) and had them crap out in a few weeks.

Now buying PSUs from reputable vendors (cost isn't the only factor, you have to look at user reviews for excessive failures and the warranty period). I have had no PSU failures in many years. I picked a reputable brand and have stuck with them at great success.

Now add the energy savings from buying higher quality (and more efficient) PSUs and in the end you will come out ahead.

Re:you don't want a $20 PSU in any system

[Psyborgue]

Personally, i'm running a multi-gpu setup with a raid array. I've never done the math but i'd rather have wattage to spare than power problems. Plus. It's not going to actually draw 700w unless it's needed, and i'd rather have the room to grow than power problems, of which i've had enough to last a lifetime.

Re:you don't want a $20 PSU in any system

[lordofthechia]

Most PSUs hit their peak efficiency at 50% load. So if you have a 350W typical load then you'll want to go with a 700W PSU to minimize your at the wall power consumption.

Also its nice to have a little room for power demand variance and future expansion.

1. http://www.anandtech.com/show/2624/3
2. http://hexus.net/tech/tech-explained/psu/29911-80-plus-certification/

Re:you don't want a $20 PSU in any system

[Ancient123]

I was wtf'ing over this. Then poe's law and I felt better.

Re:you don't want a $20 PSU in any system

[Sir_Sri]

There isn't a high end Ivy bridge, the high end sandy bridges are still 130W TDP. And a good GPU can easily be in the 200 -250 range (that's not a straight comparison to CPU because the GPU has its own board and ram being powered as well).

The future still looks like 45W or less mobile, 65W mainstream and 130W high end.

Re:you don't want a $20 PSU in any system

[Cinder6]

Absolutely right about power supplies. Everything I've read suggests that you want your PSU to operate far below its maximum load. Beyond that, a larger PSU allows for a better upgrade path than a small one. Just don't get too caught up in the whole 80 Plus thing, as it's something of a scam.

However, I have to disagree with you on what constitutes a gaming PC. You don't need two 7990s to have an effective machine, and neither do you need an i7 over an i5. Even a lone 7950 is enough to munch through just about every game without issue, and you only need more than that if you want to run two or three monitors (not supported by every game) or use the drivers to override software rendering settings (can often cause stability problems). On the CPU front, the i7's hyperthreading is useless for games; just get a 3570k and overclock it (you can easily get it to 4GHz on stock air). Nor do you need 32GB of RAM: even something like Skyrim only eats up 1GB.

Just because you can make a better system doesn't mean it's necessary. Your monitor can't display those extra frames, and you couldn't perceive them if they could. Save that money and buy some games.

Re:you don't want a $20 PSU in any system

[adolf]

Random anecdotes accumulated over 20 years of fussing with things:

Cheap / no-name / "it came with the box" PSU failures I've experienced with hardware that is in my possession: 4.

Better / at least they put a name on it / expensive PSU failures I've experienced: 1.

Incidence of hard drive failures in machines in my posession using cheap power supplies: 3.

With good power supplies: Zero.

Just throwing that out there, but to qualify it slightly: I used cheap PSUs as a rule from around '92 to '02, and have been using "good" PSUs since then. I no longer have any cheap PSUs left in my fleet. And the quantity of computers I have running 24x7 has been going up, not down, which tends to make "good" PSUs statistically even better.

Re:you don't want a $20 PSU in any system

[crutchy]

graphics

Re:you don't want a $20 PSU in any system

[crutchy]

sometimes graphics cards even have their own molex connector

Re:you don't want a $20 PSU in any system

[crutchy]

the difference comes about when you have 3 x 40"+ eyefinity (or similar) setups. you definitely want a decent frame rate or you gunna have epileptic fits

The HP exception

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know if they still do this, but when I bought my HP laptop last year (Probook serie), it came with 3 DVDs.

DVD1: Windows 7 32bit
DVD2: Windows 7 64bit
DVD3: Bloatware (I used this DVD to test my brand new CD/DVD shredder)

The default OS installed was Win7 32 bit and to my amazement, it was a default Win7 install without ANY bloatware (well, beside windows itself...).

No HP wallpaper branding, no "free" antivirus, nada !

Aggggggg yes

[aussersterne]

This remains much of my extended family.

Bog-standard Windows PCs at big-box store. One says "Includes over 50 programs and supports millions of Windows applications" on the box. The other says "Windows PC" on the box.

Uncle no-name: "Well, I'll take this one because it includes tons of software and is compatible with millions of programs. The other one isn't."

Me: "Those programs are all worthless, and the other one supports just as much software. They're both Windows PCs."

Uncle no-name: "Hey, free is free. And if the other one really could support millions of programs, they would have put it on the box. That's an important feature! You're so gullible, no wonder the younger generation is gets such bad value out of everything."

depends where you get it.

[Anonymous Coward]

If you buy that machine from the Microsoft Store It's only $1700 and doesn't come with any crapware (Windows 8 Signature).

My solution.

[Z00L00K]

Is to go the expensive way and purchase a naked license of the OS.

That way I can get a clean machine without crapware.

Buy from the MS Store

[Barlo_Mung_42]

Computers sold through the MS store come pre-cleaned of all that crap.

Re:Buy from the MS Store

[crutchy]

... or i could go buy a new car for the same price :)

Re:Buy from the MS Store

[Barlo_Mung_42]

Prices are comparable there to other places for the same unit. You get what you pay for.

OS Reinstallation

[voxner]

I do a clean install after I buy a PC. For windows 7 I had to do the following.

1. Get all the drivers from the OEM for the specific model.
2. Get the REAL windows product key (& OEM cert) of your pc. Google is your friend here.
3. Get a Retail windows copy from MSDN or some other legit site.
4. Format the PC, install windows and use slmgr tool to activate it.
5. Now install all the drivers & you are good to go.

No crapware now & it saves me disk space that the OEMs manage to steal in the name of recovery partition.

I have an inkling that Microsoft/OEMs will make the process more onerous going forward but I believe its worth the pain.

Re:OS Reinstallation

[JDG1980]

I have an inkling that Microsoft/OEMs will make the process more onerous going forward but I believe its worth the pain.

Microsoft has no stake in crapware. In fact, they made a big stink about it around the time of Vista's release. They know that when someone runs a Windows system that is full of crap from the factory, they are likely to blame Windows rather than the vendor for the poor performance.

Stopping technically oriented users from downloading Windows from MSDN has never been on Microsoft's agenda. Why would it be?

A simple package manager would solve all this

[whois]

Stop letting apps control install/uninstall. Start showing dependency chains so you can reasonably uninstall a program without breaking other things.

Linux systems solved this problem and became the easiest systems to maintain. That is why they're still around and Solaris is owned by Oracle. The Mac had a good idea 20 years ago with their mostly resource/data forks and keeping everything in one file. They partially abandoned that with MacOSX and you ended up with guts that were on top of a UNIX fs with a GUI designed to hide that from you. Consequently, the apps all had access to drop their crap wherever they felt like and then you've got the same problem windows has.. only worse

because you need to hide metadata on portable and shared media so you dump .Trashes files everywhere along with 17 other interestingly named files. They also started using filename.extension as a format for sharing files, so you get troublesome results with applications that choose to creatively crap on your filesystem.

http://arstechnica.com/apple/2001/08/metadata/7/

The answer is for commercial companies to stop allowing apps to run an executable to uninstall themselves. That has to be the dumbest idea possible from every approachable angle. Asking malware/adware/crapware if it wants to uninstall and if it would be so kind as to do so gracefully and without breaking anything, or leaving any files behind, or redirecting you to a website asking you why.

You don't have to live with that crapware, ya know

[WilliamGeorge]

Where I work - Puget Systems - we don't pull any of that crap :)

Shameless plug:

http://www.pugetsystems.com/aboutus.php

Sensationalist crap

[Anonymous Coward]

Sensationalist/troll headline world "still" detected. If you let somebody else install your ware then it is more than normal it will contain also crap.

Re:You don't have to live with that crapware, ya k

[Animats]

Central Computer, Silicon Valley's PC retailer, will also sell you a "no crapware" machine if you ask. They actually put "no crapware" on the purchase order.

Gross.

[mechtech256]

This is gross, and is insulting to the consumer. During thanksgiving, 1/2 of my family was using or thinking about buying Apple products, and it's primarily because of outrageous practices such as this. 50 crapware programs pre-installed? Is this comedy?

Re:why Norton Internet Security or McAfee Internet

[Anonymous Coward]

Because it makes them money? You think average Joe even knows about MS free tools?

Target ACER, "The Worst!?"

[Anonymous Coward]

Dear ACER,
Please keep adding "type 3 crapware" e.g. (trial software), I don't mind deleting the OFFICE and NOTRON trials by hand, I don't mind going through each service, identifying it and deciding if it should run auto, disabled or manual. Or completely uninstalled.

Instead,
I see people bitching about glitchy hibernation mode who likely deleted something important without identifying it, I don't blame people for trying and making mistakes, I blame people for looking at the big picture and instead of cleaning it up, they fucking whine about it like the little pussies they are, "Oh big governmnet pleze fixes this shizzle for me. I format every month after I fuck up my box and each time all this shit gets re-installed. waa waa waa"

So I say, KEEP DOING IT Acer!
Fuck these stupid whining commie fags, if you start listening to them now, they will fuck your business up.
Since 1996 I've used your stuff and I NEVER bought a bad product from you EVER. I still have my WORKING 486 acer aceros with a bbs running NT 3.51 on it for fuck sakes. You even WROTE the sound driver for me on request!!!
I've seen a lot of asus, HP, DELL, and Compaq come and GO.

Keep doing what you do ACER and fuck these morons don't know what they ask for. Let them go build a piece of shit 3 year lifespan computer.

You did it again!

[Anonymous Coward]

(CE)Officer crapware you did it again!

The user doesn't need a clean desktop, he needs a new PC every Year!

It's not a question of to much 'crapware' ... their is just NO GOOD!

(it's not no good, it's no good, like I need a new PC)

Officer crapware .... CRAP YOU!

who cares

[Anonymous Coward]

who cares, this is slashdot, people should be able to delete a couple simple programs. Why is this bad rep for Microsoft. Acer, Asus, etc. maybe. You bitch if they lock down the o/s you bitch if they don't! Sick of this stories. I'm also sick of the millions of BS apps in apples app store helping them claim the "most apps". Of course they have the most when there is a free and not free version for everything. When mapping software has a different version for every country!

And "throttled"... I think a modern computer can handle those apps.

The other factor

[MachineShedFred]

You're absolutely right when it comes to component cost. However, you don't have the full cost unless the purchaser regards their time as completely devoid of worth.

My time is valuable. I don't want to spend half a day figuring out how a heat sink retention clip works, putting the motherboard studs in the right place, but not that one hole that isn't on the board that will short it, finding out that the cheap shitbox case has 1/4 inch less clearance than it needs to for this particular CPU cooler so I have to run back to the store which is 25 minutes away, etc.

I'd rather work with the computer, than work on the computer. But then again, that's why I use a Mac Pro.

Re:The other factor

[quacking duck]

I'm currently spec'ing a custom PC for flight-sim purposes (X-Plane), where a Mac Pro is both out of date CPU-wise and far too expensive to start with. In benchmarks, the CPU and graphics card I'm looking at totally destroy those on the base Mac Pro, and the entire built system is almost $900 less, too, even with an OEM Windows license (if I go Linux I save even more).

But I won't be building it myself, it's $40 for assembly/testing services with 30-day build warranty, and optional 1-year warranty for $20. So for a mere $40 I *don't* have to figure out heat sinks, thermal paste, etc.

I've been using Macs at home since 1993, and my 2012 Macbook Pro will still be my day-to-day machine. But for some purposes a Mac just doesn't make sense.

Re:The other factor

[MachineShedFred]

I never said that a Mac is the perfect machine for everyone, for every purpose. I did, however, say that most people that build their own never factor in the time it takes to do it, or the time it takes to spec out every component, time it takes to shop around, shipping, etc.

It's true that today's Mac Pro is woefully out of date CPU-wise, and that Apple has been negligent in keeping it current (rumored to happen in Q1, we'll see). However, my 2009 Mac Pro is still kicking the ass of every "high end" PC that we get from Lenovo at my office that are used for small-time CAD design. Most people that care about performance will replace the entire guts of their computer twice in the time it takes for most software to catch up with what's inside that Mac Pro - I've replaced the video card, and added two solid-state drives which I striped together using Mac OS X's software raid strictly so that I can still play any game I want to, at maximum resolution of my 2560x1440 display and never drop below 60 fps.

I've built many PCs in the past. Hell, I used to have a job doing that. However, it never just clicks together as easy as a lot around here like to let people believe. There's always some kind of pain in the ass even on the simplest builds.

Well, they didn't buy an Asus...

[Anonymous Coward]

I picked up a cheap Asus laptop to run Win8 + VS2012, and it was remarkably free of "crapware" - only an antivirus (can't remember which) and not much else. Obviously, if crapware is an issue, buy an Asus.

But the corporations NEED that....

[Anonymous Coward]

to keep the prices soooo low. Otherwise that PC might cost $2000!

You people. Do you want our CEO flying around in last year's jet, or drinking domestic champagne? Philistines!

inf drivers?

[Anonymous Coward]

Which prompts the question. Is there still a sane driver system in Win 8. If so, just keep the actual driver files on the system and clean all the other crap off. Just wash it off!

Then disable all automatic update functionality. Then, maybe next best thing to do is firewall it with OSS firewall of choice, then install OSS AV of choice and modify it to allow your own exceptions - add your own personalised root kit to the exceptions list...don't mind me, I'd just waffling on..

Find away to disable that UEFI nonsense if possible, or at least find a way for it to coexist with a decent version of Linux or Unix. Then disable and remove IE 10.

That might make you feel ready for church!

Missing the point

[Anonymous Coward]

Right click > open with > select program and check "always use this program for this kind of file." Just so you know. And you could always, like, uninstall the Word preview if you weren't planning on using it, which would solve the problem as well.

I had a similar problem on my Mac. Fucking iTunes used to try to open every movie I made in iMovie, so then a clicked the mouse a few times and told it not to. Problem solved.

The point is not that the OP didn't know how to solve the problem. The problem is that the computer wouldn't open a goddamn text file until the user manually changed the association. In what universe is that kind of douchery acceptable?

Your example is a different issue; iTunes opened the file just fine, it just wasn't the player you preferred. Now, if your Mac had shown you an on-screen advertisement to play your movie on a new iPad with Retina Display, that would be a similar problem.

Speed ratings

[poofmeisterp]

Makes you wonder if the system speed / battery life / HD throughput / graphics performance / etc system ratings are given BEFORE or AFTER crapware installation on the initial release systems.

Also, how do the initial system performance ratings compare in reality to the "released a week later with updated [crapware]" units?

Gee, I wonder. I wonder. :-)

Would you pay $100 more?

[Anonymous Coward]

To buy a PC without the extras added on it would cost the consumer $100 more. Would the consumer pay that? No. Most people simply do not care and those who do care usually know how to reinstall their OS clean.

And if it bothers you

[Sycraft-fu]

Do some research, and buy from vendors that don't do it. Sager is my choice. The assemble and sell Clevo laptops. Highly customized, great components, no crapware. Not really much more expensive, either. MSI was also good last time I bought one. Not 100% free of 3rd party stuff, but very little and none of it real crapware.

Vote with your wallet.

There's an app called "web browser"

[knorthern knight]

> Really? No Google Now, Youtube or Facebook apps?

Google? There's an app for that. It's called a web browser.

Youtube? There's an app for that. It's called a web browser.

Facebook (bleagh)? There's an app for that. It's called a web browser.

Local Weather? There's an app for that. It's called a web browser.

Get the picture?

Wow!

[elabs]

Wow, that's crazy. Someone should make a program that has a list of known junk-ware titles and can uninstall them all automatically.

Re:Wow!

[neminem]

There are already at least a couple such programs in existence. I couldn't remember the name of the one I used a couple years ago, but I just googled "tool to remove crapware", and got loads of relevant results. :p

Re:why Norton Internet Security or McAfee Internet

[Anonymous Coward]

Isn't providing solutions the way they make money?

Crapware I like that name1

[bobs666]

Lets define it as anything without source code. Since without source how can you call it software.

Re:You don't have to live with that crapware, ya k

[Arker]

No need to be ashamed of plugging a no-crapware pc vendor in an article about crapware, that's for sure.

On the other hand, anything posted to slashdot is subject to criticism as well. I went through your system configurator and found I was unable to deselect the RAM. Actually built a nice little system other than that, but why would I want to pay $90 for a stick of RAM I won't use? In some cases I would want to be able to specify no hard drive, though not in this case - at any rate that option is also missing.

Pretty good place to work eh?

Maybe you don't know what a niche market is?

[Zero__Kelvin]

OK. You guys still just don't seem to be able or willing to get it. I already stated there are niche applications. You want to take an example that applies to far less than 1 percent of the population and pretend it is significant. It isn't. I agree that if you are using AutoCAD then you need to run Windows in a VM to act as a kind of middleware on Linux. That doesn't make Windows better, it just means they managed to use their undeserved influence to acheive some degree of vendor lock-in in markets where there is little overlap between the user and developer domain (i.e. Almost no users of the product are capable of writing software. You literally have it ass backwards. Windows isn't better because AutoCAD and Photoshop only run on Windows. Windows is worse because these are merely examples of successful vendor lock-in attempts. Again, note that all the successes are in niche markets, since for the 99% / non-niche application domain there are plenty of people willing to implement a solution.

Re:You don't have to live with that crapware, ya k

[WilliamGeorge]

I really like working here - been here since 2005, so a little more than half the time the company has been around (started in 2000). Working for a smaller company with little / no BS bureaucracy and a positive employee culture is great. Very flexible, and able to take care of our customers well :)

As for the inability to remove parts, we decided a while back that for the best customer experience we are going to require all the core components to be included in any system sold. That means the motherboard, CPU, CPU cooler, RAM, some sort of internal drive (SSD / hard drive), video output (either a dedicated card or onboard), chassis, and power supply. As long as those are all in there, and supplied by us, we can ensure that every time a computer leaves here it is fully functional - so if it arrives to a customer and doesn't work, we don't have to troubleshoot whether stuff they added caused the problem.

Now folks are, of course, welcome to add items on their own - or even to send in more parts to us to be added to a system (if they already have a second drive with data, for example). We used to allow a couple of the core items to be supplied by customers, but it caused too many problem situations. If a customer sent in four sticks of RAM, and the system starts throwing memory errors (we run Prime95 before installing the OS) then we have to spend time troubleshooting which memory module is the defective one... and all of that for an item we made no money on. Not only the time, though: once we figure out the defective module, we'd have to send it back to the customer (with the system only running on partial RAM) and they'd then have to RMA it... and it if wasn't RAM, if it was instead a power supply or drive, we couldn't even complete the build at all!

Re:You don't have to live with that crapware, ya k

[WilliamGeorge]

Nice - I'm glad that is still the norm at a lot of smaller computer shops :)

It is also rather amusing that Microsoft's 'Signature' service - at their physical Microsoft Stores and corresponding website - involves taking the junk software *off* of big-brand computer systems that they sell. Even they know it is a problem for customers, but they don't do anything to discourage their OEMs from installing it in the first place.

To hell with this guy.

[Anonymous Coward]

AccuWeather isn't crapware! Sure, it's not necessary and it should be up to the user whether or not to add it but it's NOT crapware (my boss might not like me saying that)! However, the user should add it.

Of course, I'm biased, I work for AccuWeather. But seriously, it's not crapware. It's pretty good stuff.

Re:To hell with this guy.

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Then I would put in a bid to ONLY update the weather when an alert comes out or at startup (do you really need to check your server several times a day when it is running)? And any adverts should be downloaded at the same time.

There are lots of local clock cycles, but storage and network are still bottlenecks for most American users.

The updating situation on Windows is a mess

[Shirley Marquez]

One real problem on Windows nowadays is the number of things running in the background just to check for updates. A typical PC is likely to have the Adobe Flash updater, the Oracle Java updater, the Apple QuickTime updater, the updater for the user's choice of browser (Firefox and/or Chrome), an antivirus updater, a vendor-specific updater, and many more. All of these chew up memory and CPU time; not a lot for each one but collectively they add up. The model used by Linux distributions is much better. You have ONE updater that can draw from all the software repositories (it can add repos for programs that don't use the official repository) and you're done. Much cleaner. Microsoft needs to step up to the table with a comparable solution; Windows Update is halfway there but it doesn't cover most non-Microsoft applications or some device drivers.

Who buys computers with an installed OS

[Anonymous Coward]

I would have guessed most of you build your own computer and start with a clean drive

My X Windows is completely legal.

[girlinatrainingbra]

Re: I find it interesting is that every statement like this excludes (or more frequently, omits) the cost ($80-100 or higher) of a legal [Microsoft] Windows installation.
:>)
First point: I've got a legal Windows installation: it's called X windows. Don't just say "Windows" when you mean "Microsoft Windows". Now on to the original retort.
This is /. , where there are users of GNU user space programs, Linux kernels, BSD boxen, and loaded hardware with various styles of free software and open source software and MIT/BSD licensed software. We don't need no stinkin' Windows installation. (note I am not implying that we don't need a "legal Microsoft windows installation" and thereby allowing for an "illegal" install of MSwindows; I am stating clearly that we [and you] do NOT NEED any sort of Microsoft Windows installation). You can get your windows the MIT-licensed way: X-windows!

gmhowell karma whoring 2 days later

[Anonymous Coward]

with his standard 1 line post to abuse others with karma points given. Note the time and date of his post in relation to who he replied to. Gives his trolling game away.