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Automation Is Making Unions Irrelevant

dcblogs writes "Michigan lawmakers just approved a right-to-work law in an effort to dismantle union power, but unions are already becoming irrelevant. The problem with unions is they can't protect jobs. They can't stop a company from moving jobs overseas, closing offices, or replacing workers with machines. Indeed, improvements in automation is making the nation attractive again for manufacturing, according to U.S. intelligence Global Trends 2030 report. The trends are clear. Amazon spent $775 million this year to acquire a company, Kiva Systems that makes robots used in warehouses. Automation will replace warehouse workers, assembly-line and even retail workers. In time, Google's driverless cars will replace drivers in the trucking industry. Unions sometimes get blamed for creating uncompetitive environments and pushing jobs overseas. But the tech industry, which isn't unionized, is a counterpoint. Tech has been steadily moving jobs overseas to lower costs."

345 of 510 comments (clear)

  1. Title is misleading by pkbarbiedoll · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Automation is making human labor irrelevant, regardless of union participation.

    1. Re:Title is misleading by NFN_NLN · · Score: 2

      Cool, now we can do to other industries what we've already done to our own.

    2. Re:Title is misleading by bjourne · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Automation is only making human labour irrelevant as long as it is cheaper. Low labour costs means there is no incentive to invest in automation. Which is why Japan and Sweden has the highest number of industrial robots per capita in the world. Evil unions that drive labour costs through the roof and forces poor companies to automate.

    3. Re:Title is misleading by flaming+error · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Automation is shifting repetitive, uncreative, brutish work to repetitive, uncreative, brutish machines, thus freeing humans to pursue nobler interests.

      No consolation to the workers who can't find new jobs, I know. But for the larger society, the benefits outweigh the costs.

      In every change some prosper, some lose. But the same happens in every status quo. We may as well choose technological progress.

      If we are compassionate, we can give the displaced workers opportunities to learn new skills.

    4. Re:Title is misleading by symbolset · · Score: 1

      If automation and technological progress has advanced to the point where the majority of us need not toil to create all the goods and services we want and need, perhaps its time to consider exploiting the vast potential of the idle in some way.

      --
      Help stamp out iliturcy.
    5. Re:Title is misleading by jxander · · Score: 1

      Unions tend to be more prevalent in fields where automation will flourish. Physical labor, assembly line work, machinists, etc

      Surely we'll have robot code monkeys at some point down the line -- or maybe we'll go away and be replaced with a very small shell script -- but that day is further off, and thus less news-worthy.

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      This signature is false.
    6. Re:Title is misleading by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Yes, I've heard about the leisure society for decades. We don't seem too eager as a society to reap the benefits our combined energy and technology resources, we'd rather cling to the old work week model. We simply create new jobs and new needs to pretend that we still need to work.

    7. Re:Title is misleading by Opportunist · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yeah, and as we all know Sweden is the country with the highest unemployment humanly possible and its economy is about to collapse. People are rioting in the streets and even camp outside ... no, wait, that wasn't Sweden...

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    8. Re:Title is misleading by scamper_22 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The big problem is simply that people are used to living an advantageous life over other people.

      You see this all the time with people complaining about being paid the minimum wage.

      Well what is wrong with the minimum wage? Someone has to be paid the minimum wage. Those paid higher than the minimum wage simply take advantage of the labor of those paid less and get more 'stuff' in life.

      The public school teacher only has a 'good job' because some waiter is being paid minimum wage so they can go out to eat on a weekend. Because some textile worker is earning minimum wage assembling clothes and the teacher can get a new pair of jeans every few months...

      The position is privilege is what union workers are used to. Both in the public sector and the private sector.

      Ultimately, technology is going to make us more egalitarian. There might be a few rich people in charge of the robots that provide us with cheap goods, but you know what will get to the average Joe... that they cannot complete with the average Joe's anymore.

      In a more egalitarian society... who gets to live in Downtown Manhatten in the 'nice' neighborhood close to transit? Answer that question without saying one person earns more than another.

      I too don't fear technology. But I do fear humanity.
      Humans love to take advantage of each other.
      The 'evil' banker, the teacher, the police officer, the businessman, the engineer... we all in general want to live a better life than someone else.

      To truly take advantage of this technological progress, we must rid ourselves of this. That will be the hardest challenge.

      We all *know* the solution to this.
      Things like work sharing, decreased dependency on economy growth...
      The question is how will societies transition their people to this model.
      How will they convince public sector unions, doctors, lawyers... that their standard of living will be that of the average citizen?

      Change of this sort is hard at the political level and social level. You're talking about changing the social situation of millions and millions of people who are used to a certain kind of living.

      Forget about the displaced workers for a second.
      Most of these displaced workers are in the private sector... and much of the created need is in the public sector or public related sector (healthcare, education, transit...)

      At some point the lack of tax money paid by these displaced private sector workers is going to hit the pocket books of government wanted to spend on the public related sector. Wait a minute... I think this is where we pretty much are.

      So no matter how many new skills you give these displaced workers, there isn't any money or perhaps even need to give them all jobs in the new field at the current going rate of those fields.

      And you're back to tackling establishments in the banking sector, public sector... and taking away a life of privilege and jobs from millions upon millions of people.
      Can't say that is going to be easy to transition to... and you can expect a lot of social unrest in the process.

    9. Re:Title is misleading by ArhcAngel · · Score: 2, Funny

      Just look at all the unemployed blacksmiths since the advent of the automobile.

      --
      "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." - K
    10. Re:Title is misleading by fredprado · · Score: 2

      Sweden has a very small population. Japan, on the other hand, is having considerable problems with unemployment.

    11. Re:Title is misleading by Intrepid+imaginaut · · Score: 1

      If we are compassionate, we can give the displaced workers opportunities to learn new skills.

      From a purely economic standpoint, compassion has little to do with it. Either find new work for them or be prepared to support them. Or, see how civil insurrection looks on a balance sheet.

      As we move towards a post scarcity society some questions are raised that can only be answered by something closely resembling central wealth redistribution. Not full blown communism but the guarantee of a reasonable standard of living for everyone, with the opportunity to get more if you want to. Much of Europe is basically operating on this principle at the moment, and as time passes I feel we'll see a higher standard emerge.

      As such, it's pretty much essential that we focus on figuring out how best to help people learn and reach their potential.

    12. Re:Title is misleading by Nadaka · · Score: 1

      Or perhaps its time to recognize that working your ass off just to barely survive is no longer necessary in modern society.

      We could seriously cut labor hours to 30 or maybe even 20 hours a week with full employment, and still be able to provide the necessities for everyone as well as moderate levels of entertainment and low end luxury goods.

    13. Re:Title is misleading by vlm · · Score: 1

      Automation is shifting repetitive, uncreative, brutish work to repetitive, uncreative, brutish machines, thus freeing humans to pursue nobler interests.

      LOL mostly "uncreative, brutish work" just not so much repetitive. And especially "un/underemployed" which is no badge of nobility.

      No consolation to the workers who can't find new jobs, I know. But for the larger society, the benefits outweigh the costs.

      Let them eat cake. Until the revolution, anyway. If there's one lesson of the 1900s, if the czars were smart enough to issue food stamps, they'd still be in charge.

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    14. Re:Title is misleading by blue+trane · · Score: 4, Interesting

      We should challenge the economics that says we can't create money and give it to people. In fact we created $16 trillion (enough to pay off the entire national debt) in two years to bail out financial unions (source: http://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/news/?id=9e2a4ea8-6e73-4be2-a753-62060dcbb3c3 ).

      The best option (that I can think of, at least) is to give everyone a basic income (an idea that goes back to Founding Father Thomas Paine in his 1795 Agrarian Justice), and stimulate innovation and technological progress with challenges from both biz and govt (X Prize, DARPA challenges, Google bug bounties, Netflix prize, etc.). The resulting increase in knowledge advancement will raise our survival fitness fastest because knowledge empowers us to better predict and adapt to sudden catastrophic changes.

      We start by challenging the fundamental assumptions of popular economics, one of which is that government can only spend what it takes in. This assumption has been violated by the history of the United States, which has had a national debt since its very founding. Lincoln printed some $480 million greenbacks to raise money without increasing taxes or borrowing it. Japan runs a 230% debt-to-gdp ratio and has a currency they keep trying to devalue. Dick Cheney was right: Reagan proved that deficits don't matter.

    15. Re:Title is misleading by sg_oneill · · Score: 1

      Automation is shifting repetitive, uncreative, brutish work to repetitive, uncreative, brutish machines, thus freeing humans to pursue nobler interests.

      Yeah thats what they said in the 1800s. We've had a hundred years of trying it. Its not working. Instead technology has been pushing wealth into ever more concentrated hands because it means less and less people need to be paid to produce stuff.

      But heres the question. Who in society is not a worker, except for the rich?

      And how does someone become rich, except by working?

      So if if less people are now able to become rich, and the rest are becoming jobless and redundant, how exactly is this going to benefit the wider society?

      Capitalism and automation are not a compatible combination with the welfare of the wider society.

      But is the wider society ready for an alternative to capitalism?

      --
      Excuse the Unicode crap in my posts. That's an apostrophe, and slashdot is busted.
    16. Re:Title is misleading by volmtech · · Score: 1

      If I could think clearer that is exactly what I would have said. To bad I have no mode points this week.

    17. Re:Title is misleading by ArhcAngel · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Unions tend to be more prevalent in fields where automation will flourish. Physical labor, assembly line work, machinists, etc

      Unions are prevalent in fields that require less specialized skills (not lack of) meaning there is a broader cross-section of people qualified to do a given task. Because of this owners (This isn't confined just to corporations) tend to feel they can pit potential candidates against each other for the job with it going to the individual willing to do it for the least amount. When unions first came about in the US this practice was rampant and stifling enough people they rose up against it. As with most good intentions many Unions eventually became the master and just as evil as the overlords they were created to overthrow. "Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely" - Lord Acton

      When I cannot turn on a light switch because it will lead to the unemployment of the "electrical engineer" something has gone terribly wrong.

      --
      "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." - K
    18. Re:Title is misleading by symbolset · · Score: 1

      Yeah, or maybe we could recognize that in order to feel fullfilled and needed, some people like to work 50-60 hours a week - and let them.

      --
      Help stamp out iliturcy.
    19. Re:Title is misleading by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's also idiotic... because who buys the stuff? It's the lower/middle class people that buy the vast majority of things. You replace their jobs with robots... they don't have any money to buy things and your economy grinds to a halt.

      Nice work greedy fucks - kill the goose that lays the golden eggs. Henry Ford - for all his bad qualities understood this - he paid his workers well because they used their spare income to buy his cars. Robots don't buy the cars they build.

    20. Re:Title is misleading by Sir_Eptishous · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I agree with much of your analysis.
      However the speed of technological change, and the rate at which human labor becomes irrelevant, are quickly outpacing any kind of egalitarian drive in human society, any kind of evolution as a species regarding our interactions with one another.

      The reality is, in the next 50 years much of the human race, especially in the developed world, will become irrelevant to the "machine world" that will replace human labor. The systems in place to support the lifestyles of those in control won't need the millions of permanently un-employed, and they won't foot the bill for some kind of social welfare system to keep them quiet.

      More likely a permanent state of drugged obedience via constant virtual escapism while being constantly controlled and monitored by the omniscient security apparatus.

      --
      We play the game with the bravery of being out of range
    21. Re:Title is misleading by Feyshtey · · Score: 1

      Automation is shifting repetitive, uncreative, brutish work to repetitive, uncreative, brutish machines, thus freeing humans to pursue nobler interests.

      Shouldnt we encourage the repetitive, uncreative and brutish workers to remain in repetitive, uncreative, brutish jobs?

      --
      "But we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it,..." - Nancy Pelosi
    22. Re:Title is misleading by scamper_22 · · Score: 1

      I don't disagree with you at all :)

      Much of my post was about 'truly taking advantage of the technology'.

      I do fear humanity, as I said in my post, and I think what you say is a perfectly plausible outcome.

    23. Re:Title is misleading by geoskd · · Score: 1

      In every change some prosper, some lose. But the same happens in every status quo. We may as well choose technological progress.

      Agreed, but the problem is larger than that: A very large part of the population simply is incapable of doing more than grunt labor. When the only work that an individual is capable of doing can be done by robots / computers, then how does that individual earn their keep in society?

      We have a massive crisis looming, as less and less human activity is required to maintain society, our capitalist system breaks down. When there is not enough work to keep everyone gainfully employed, but enough product is produced so that everyone can have everything they want, what happens to capitalism? Think about it from a supply side perspective. XYZ factory is capable of producing doohickey A in sufficient quantities for every person on earth to have it, but no one can afford it because no one has a job. All agriculture is done by machines, all manufacturing is done by robots, Sales is all done online, Shipping is done by warehousing robots, and self driving trucks deliver the packages. The only people that are required are the designers who build and maintain the machines. Even the medical professions will fall to automation eventually. Eventually, even the designers and maintainers will no longer be required and everything will be automated. What will our society look like when people are no longer needed at all? How will capitalism work when companies do not need or want employees, but need a market to sell to? Do we make laws to force companies to use human labor just so that we can have employment? Answering these questions now, will help us to adapt to the ever-decreasing need for unskilled labor, and the massive unemployment that this will/is causing.

      If we are compassionate, we can give the displaced workers opportunities to learn new skills.

      That only really works if the worker is capable of learning the new skill or trade that will give them employment. We are slowly, but steadily replacing all the easiest jobs (read as jobs that any moron can do) with automation. What happens when the only work that is still done by humans requires an IQ over 80? 100? 120? 150?

      -=Geoskd

      --
      I wish I had a good sig, but all the good ones are copyrighted
    24. Re:Title is misleading by ghostdoc · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If we are compassionate, we can give the displaced workers opportunities to learn new skills.

      As we move towards a post scarcity society some questions are raised that can only be answered by something closely resembling central wealth redistribution. Not full blown communism but the guarantee of a reasonable standard of living for everyone, with the opportunity to get more if you want to. Much of Europe is basically operating on this principle at the moment, and as time passes I feel we'll see a higher standard emerge.

      No, and I mean NO! because central wealth distribution has been shown time and again to disincentivise people from actually doing something useful with their lives. If you earn enough from benefits, and your benefits reduce if you work/produce value, then why do anything useful? And Benefit Dependency is a really nasty pernicious place to be in.

      As such, it's pretty much essential that we focus on figuring out how best to help people learn and reach their potential.

      Yes! Education has to change. We have to stop emphasising rote learning, obedience, testing, conformity, all that shit that creates good little worker drones, and reinvent true education. Luckily there are huge leaps being made in online education at the moment, so being able to provide everyone with a better education is going to be easier and cheaper. Hopefully we'll move away from the school system too, and integrate child education back into our work life and home life.

      --
      Business/App ideas are like arseholes: everyone's got one, they're mostly shit, but very rarely they contain a diamond
    25. Re:Title is misleading by crazyjj · · Score: 4, Insightful

      thus freeing humans to pursue nobler interests.

      Yeah, we'll have plenty of time on our hands to pursue interests like huddling around trashcan fires, stealing food, and begging for change.

      --
      What political party do you join when you don't like Bible-thumpers *or* hippies?
    26. Re:Title is misleading by Sir_Eptishous · · Score: 1

      You know I see this term bandied about, "post scarcity society" and I have to laugh.
      Really? Post scarcity?

      Please read up on our prospects for clean drinking water(one among many of coming scarcities.)

      --
      We play the game with the bravery of being out of range
    27. Re:Title is misleading by F'Nok · · Score: 1

      I think you must be talking about a totally different Japan, because the Japanese unemployment is significantly lower than most other developed nations.

      First google result, that easy to find...
      http://www.tradingeconomics.com/japan/unemployment-rate

      So what's the considerable problem?

    28. Re:Title is misleading by bondsbw · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Giving everyone a basic income would provide them a safety net, encouraging risk-taking and innovation. Whoever does succeed contributes more back to the societal safety net.

      But some people don't try. They don't want to try. If given a choice between a free shack and a nice home they can work to afford, they will choose the shack. How do we get them to contribute something positive to society, and to take the risks that the safety net is intended to promote?

      --
      All my liberal friends think I'm a conservative, all my conservative friends think I'm a liberal.
    29. Re:Title is misleading by tlhIngan · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Ultimately, technology is going to make us more egalitarian. There might be a few rich people in charge of the robots that provide us with cheap goods, but you know what will get to the average Joe... that they cannot complete with the average Joe's anymore.

      Alas, I don't think this is the case - technology can go both ways, and so far, it's shifting away from egalitarianism and being explotied by those in power to gain more money and power.

      Think about what technology has given us, then think about how it's been misused such that we're in the state we're in. Stuff like HFT (which while serving a purpose on the market by offering liquidity, is also a great way to completely screw up the financial system - see flash crashes), the Internet (supposedly the bastion of free speech, is now used to oppress and divide - like joins like and people generally gravitate towards others who share their views), and all sorts of other stuff.

      Technology is neutral - it can be used for good purposes and bad, and so far it seems that the bad is taking over faster than the good. I believe someone once mocked "To err is human. To royally f**k up requires a computer".

      Also. unions, while typically considered blue collar work, are increasingly appearing in white collar jobs - there are plenty of people who belong to office worker unions doing the regular clerical duties around the office (filing, finding documents, keeping the place orderly, odering supplies, organizing, cleaning, etc.). Automation is correctly removing low skill repetive boring jobs that humans don't want to do - jobs that increasingly go to immigrants because no American wants to clean toilets all day, for example.

    30. Re:Title is misleading by Alioth · · Score: 2

      The thing is - it just doesn't end up happening. The first bits of automation decades ago was supposed to cause a massive unemployment problem. The coming of the microprocessor was supposed to mean by the mid 90s we would all have to be working no more than 20 hours per week to keep enough people employed. Look up a TV programme called "The Mighty Micro" (all of it is on YouTube) - it was a 6 part series made in 1979 about the then upcoming microprocessor and what it would mean. They made this prediction in that programme. Since 1979, the workforce has doubled in size in Britain (at least), and unemployment in absolute numbers is lower than in 1979 (which means the actual unemployment rate is less than half what it was in the late 70s) despite us being in the middle of the worst recession since the 1930s. We work longer hours than ever despite all this extra automation we have.

    31. Re:Title is misleading by damienl451 · · Score: 1

      That's a bit misleading. I'd rather be in the bottom 20% in a high-income country such as the United States or Sweden, than in the top 10% in a Sub-Saharan country. Even with substantially more money than the average person, quality of life is much lower. Which means that you can't just look at income inequality. Median income and living standards, as well as their absolute range also matters. Even if wealth is more and more concentrated (which is not exactly accurate, the Gini coefficient is about the same as it was in the 1860s, and fluctuated a lot throughout the 20th century), living standards have improved a lot, which is what really matters. Money is only the green stuff that we need to buy what we really want.

    32. Re:Title is misleading by F'Nok · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Not everywhere has the incredible income disparity of the US, so you're making a lot of assumptions that while valid for the US, don't apply to the rest of the world as equally.

      Probably the take away from that is that other nations are evidence that there are other ways and perhaps the US should start looking at them.

      When I go out for dinner here in Australia, my waiter isn't on minimum wage, we don't have a culture of tipping because they actually get paid enough to live.

      No, no one needs to be paid the minimum wage, and the minimum wage conditions of the US are frightening to me and evidence of serious social inequality and damage.

      The unemployment benefits in Australia are larger than a full time job on minimum wage in most states of the US. That's how stark the difference is.

      The problem is not that 'someone needs to be paid minimum wage'. Because there are nations where the US concept of minimum wage would be considered poverty.

    33. Re:Title is misleading by alexander_686 · · Score: 1

      You looking at the wrong data. You want to find a 20 year run of 1. Inflation adjusted GDP 2. The working age population and 3. The total hours worked. What you will find is a stagnant economy, frighten off the twin evils of the 90’s property bubble and a declining population. The reason why the rates are low is because you are looking at a recent, 1 year chart. It fails to capture the underemployed and the discouraged.

    34. Re:Title is misleading by KingMotley · · Score: 1

      At some point the lack of tax money paid by these displaced private sector workers is going to hit the pocket books of government wanted to spend on the public related sector.

      Umm...No. That isn't the way it works. If a company becomes more profitable, say removing the x number of dollars that would have been given to workers, and instead turns into company profit instead, government taxes would be increased as the corporations would have been taxed on the profit, and then taxed again at a higher rate as the owners receive the money (Who are quite likely making more money than the floor workers, and are in a higher tax bracket).

      Of course that assumes the profits aren't hidden or shifted to another country first.

    35. Re:Title is misleading by F'Nok · · Score: 3, Interesting

      No, and I mean NO! because central wealth distribution has been shown time and again to disincentivise people from actually doing something useful with their lives. If you earn enough from benefits, and your benefits reduce if you work/produce value, then why do anything useful? And Benefit Dependency is a really nasty pernicious place to be in.

      There are a number of places in the world outside the US that show this to be untrue.

      Australian benefits are greater than US minimum wage (in most states) at full time. Yet somehow the unemployment in Australia is lower and all those minimum wage jobs seem to be filled.

      Perhaps it's a little more complicated than forcing people to work with the threat of poverty?

    36. Re:Title is misleading by alexander_686 · · Score: 2

      I would say that welders are today’s blacksmiths. Also, there are more ferries (blacksmiths that work on horses) working today in the US then there were 100 years ago.

    37. Re:Title is misleading by KingMotley · · Score: 1

      And I suppose modern "assembly line workers" are/will be called automation maintenance, or more likely automation engineers, or process specialists.

    38. Re:Title is misleading by F'Nok · · Score: 3, Informative

      There are underemployment issues in most economies and there always has been, it's just that 20 years ago those people were completely invisible, and today some people will talk about them.

      The situation in Japan is no worse due to automation, the issue Japan does have is an ageing population.

      The relatively severe ageing problem Japan will have is certainly an issue, but it has nothing to do with automation, or the assertion that they have high unemployment.

      They don't have high unemployment, they have a high number of people unable to work due to age and a low birth rate resulting in a negative population trend.

    39. Re:Title is misleading by hab136 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      >No, and I mean NO! because central wealth distribution has been shown time and again to disincentivise people from actually doing something useful with their lives. If you earn enough from benefits, and your benefits reduce if you work/produce value, then why do anything useful? And Benefit Dependency is a really nasty pernicious place to be in.

      The thinking is that there isn't enough useful work to be done. Machines will do most of the grunt work, and you only need x engineers/electricians/other useful jobs per 100,000 people, so what should everyone else do? There's only so much room for artists/writers/musicians. So, since there is no work to be done, yet the person still needs to live, they need to be supported somehow.

      The alternative is: there's no work for you to do, please starve to death.

      The ratio of employed people to the total population has been slowly shrinking in the US. Currently 58.7% of the US population is working; the rest are not. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Employment-to-population_ratio

      What happens when that ratio dwindles lower, to 40%, or 25%, or 10%?

    40. Re:Title is misleading by KingMotley · · Score: 1

      Using machines doesn't make the prices go down, they make the company's profits go up.

      Until you get a bunch of out of work people get together to make a plant that does the exact same thing for less.

    41. Re:Title is misleading by F'Nok · · Score: 4, Informative

      Not in British English.

    42. Re:Title is misleading by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The big problem is simply that people are used to living an advantageous life over other people.

      You see this all the time with people complaining about being paid the minimum wage.

      Well what is wrong with the minimum wage? Someone has to be paid the minimum wage. Those paid higher than the minimum wage simply take advantage of the labor of those paid less and get more 'stuff' in life.

      The public school teacher only has a 'good job' because some waiter is being paid minimum wage so they can go out to eat on a weekend. Because some textile worker is earning minimum wage assembling clothes and the teacher can get a new pair of jeans every few months...

      In other words, "be glad for the ditch digger, else you'd be digging ditches"

    43. Re:Title is misleading by WrongMonkey · · Score: 4, Insightful
      "More likely a permanent state of drugged obedience via constant virtual escapism while being constantly controlled and monitored by the omniscient security apparatus."

      You make that sound like a bad thing. But for many people, getting high and playing video games all day would be a kind of utopia.

    44. Re:Title is misleading by dgatwood · · Score: 2

      IMO, it's not really a problem. As the amount of drinking water available starts to get moderately scarce, water districts will raise their rates to avoid the need for forced rationing. At that point, it will be financially viable to create clean drinking water in other ways. The market will react to this by building additional desalination plants and pumping stations, and there will be enough water to meet demand. After all, more than two-thirds of the planet is covered by water.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    45. Re:Title is misleading by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      there are nations where the US concept of minimum wage would be considered poverty.

      The US itself is one of them.

    46. Re:Title is misleading by KingMotley · · Score: 1

      Surely we'll have robot code monkeys at some point down the line

      Maybe, but programming has been heading that way for a very long time. I don't know many programmers today that still have to write things like a queue or stack. Programmers build upon what previous programmers have done by utilizing libraries of code.

      I didn't cry and scream when assembler was mostly phased out for higher level languages like C. Nor did I scream when C was phased out for higher level languages like C++, C#, and Java. I just learned the new languages, new frameworks, and new toolkits. Some things that used to take a whole team of programmers years to do, can now be done by an individual or two in months (or less, depending). Some programmers who didn't/couldn't/wouldn't adapt lost their jobs and switched to a different field. I don't see this changing any time soon.

    47. Re:Title is misleading by router · · Score: 1

      People will still need human jobs, robot bartenders/wait staff will be a novelty. Rich people will always want to show how rich they are, the economy will cope with machines.

      Strippers, for example, make far more than the minimum wage. There will always be a human market.

      Fashion, art, archtecture, none are machine driven.

      Science, engineering, have survived the computer age, they will continue to do so.

      All this does if free us from some of the boring jobs leaving us free to do interesting ones.

      If the only existence you can imagine for yourself is 40 hours a week doing production line assembly, I really feel for you, you are missing the whole point of being human.

      andy

    48. Re:Title is misleading by flaming+error · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "More likely a permanent state of drugged obedience via constant virtual escapism while being constantly controlled and monitored by the omniscient security apparatus."

      What's likely I don't know, but another possibility is that, just as with other species, where imbalance occurs nature will impose a new equilibrium that leaves us with a smaller population.

      Our economic system is clearly unsustainable in ways environmental and mathematical. That means our current way of life won't last forever. Since we don't seem to be doing much to fundamentally change, we are leaving the coming transition entirely in the hands of nature.

    49. Re:Title is misleading by perceptual.cyclotron · · Score: 1

      [...] because central wealth distribution has been shown time and again to disincentivise people from actually doing something useful with their lives.

      Citation needed.

    50. Re:Title is misleading by diamondmagic · · Score: 1

      What? The entire size of the USD monetary supply is only ten trillion! Nor can you take out a loan and use it to pay off your debt that's... taking from one pocket to put in the other.

      Printing money does not do anything except reduce the real savings of people holding money or debt. In layman's terms: It bids up prices. There's this thing called supply and demand, you know. It's a settled science, and your statement is about as bold as me saying "We should challenge the physics that says we must be pulled towards other masses at some acceleration proportional to the inverse-square of their distance."

      You know what happened to those countries that spent more than they took in? HYPERINFLATION.

    51. Re:Title is misleading by FsG · · Score: 1

      So will a robot be diagnosing and fixing your car when it breaks? Will it be designing new and better cars? Will it even design the automation systems that let those new cars be built more efficiently?

      Will those robots provide legal advice to the companies that operate them? Will they provide medical care to your kid when he breaks a bone? Will they provide him with counseling when he's struggling emotionally? Will they give him a lesson on algebra, and then work with him one-on-one to make sure he understands it?

      Will robots patrol the streets and keep you safe from crime? Will they prosecute people who hurt others, or preside over those trials to make sure everyone's rights are protected?

      Will robots invent the next Google or Facebook, and will they code it up and design a nice-looking and intuitive interface for it? Will they entertain you from a stage or a movie set? Will they write new jokes for a stand-up act, write an original novel, or provide an author with advice on how to make his characters more lifelike?

      Maybe McDonald's fry cooks will eventually be replaced with robots, but "labor" isn't going anywhere.

      --
      I made a PHP/MySQL library that prevents SQL injection & makes coding easier!
    52. Re:Title is misleading by alexander_686 · · Score: 1

      Yes - thanks for the catch

    53. Re:Title is misleading by tftp · · Score: 2

      I'd rather be in the bottom 20% in a high-income country such as the United States or Sweden, than in the top 10% in a Sub-Saharan country.

      A top 10% income in Africa will give you a personal palace, personal guards, and personal concubines. You would be living if not like a king then pretty well anyway. All the roads upward will be open for you.

      A bottom 20% income in the USA (assuming $80K/yr as a reference level) will place you into a cockroach-infested, 100 years old apartment building in a bad part of town. Your life expectancy will depend on how good you are with a knife (or with a gun, in Chicago.) You will be unemployable for many reasons, and your income will be officially around the poverty level.

    54. Re:Title is misleading by ArhcAngel · · Score: 1

      I would say that welders are today’s blacksmiths.

      Which is the point the OP and I were making. Advances to solve a problem inevitably introduce new problems which will need to be serviced

      there are more ferries (blacksmiths that work on horses) working today in the US then there were 100 years ago.

      I question that on a per capita basis. And while modern ferriers do light blacksmith work on horseshoes they don't generally do much beyond that.

      Now get off my lawn!

      --
      "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." - K
    55. Re:Title is misleading by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      Technologically speaking, that's pretty much solved, too. The only shortage is money to build the transatlantic superconducting power infrastructure and put solar panels on every rooftop on the planet.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    56. Re:Title is misleading by oraclese · · Score: 1

      10% of income earners in Africa live in palaces?

    57. Re:Title is misleading by jd.schmidt · · Score: 5, Interesting

      You are trying to answer the profoundly wrong question. More or less no one now or ever has expected or demanded a totally egalitarian society. Some few have maybe dreamed of it, but no one has demanded it. Even in communist countries there was no real expectation that every member of society would get exactly the same thing, more of the case that there was an attempt (unsuccessful) to prevent anyone from falling too low.

      The issue is if you don't stand up for yourself you will get walked over.

      Consider "Right to Work" as a simple example, it is NOT the case that these laws repealed some requirement that all unions contract be exclusive by law. Those exclusivity terms were negotiated between two free groups. Instead these laws scratch out, by government fiat, parts of existing contracts and make it illegal for two parties to agree these terms. Why if you are free to join with another person and start a company, should you not be free to join with another person and start a Union

      I have a great deal of faith in people to take care of themselves given the chance. The basic problem is there is a deliberate attempt to prevent people from being able to stand up for themselves. Let’s start by removing those barriers and see what happens.

    58. Re:Title is misleading by erice · · Score: 3, Insightful

      TIn a more egalitarian society... who gets to live in Downtown Manhatten in the 'nice' neighborhood close to transit? Answer that question without saying one person earns more than another.

      In a perfectly egalitarian society, the most desirable populated areas would still cost more and you would still get less. The people who lived there would be those willing to spend the largest fraction of their income to live in the smallest practical housing. This is largely how it works today.

      There would likely be areas that are populated today that would not be in this system. If no one can afford to live there, then the space will be used for other activities that can justify the cost. Or the rent reaches a plateau so getting in become a matter of chance, connections, and subterfuge. That happens today too.

    59. Re:Title is misleading by OneAhead · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I think you underestimate the impact of greed, strife and group-think. It's basically what consumerist/capitalist society is built on. You bombard people the whole day with advertisements that all carry the same message: If you buy this, you will be happy. [Take-home message: money creates happiness.] You will be superior to your neighbor who doesn't have it. Or go ahead and don't buy it, but you will be ridiculed and feel inferior and unhappy. These messages fall on fertile ground: they trigger people's instinctive tendencies to appear superior as to attract a better mate. Few people can resist these base tendencies, leave alone the tsunami of adverts enforcing them. If this wasn't true, rich people would retire to enjoy life once they hit the $10M mark.

      Surely, there will be some freeloaders, but so what? All they're doing is sidetracking themselves from society (and who knows, maybe one or two of them will turn out to be great artists). As long as that free shack is not overly luxurious, the number of freeloaders won't be too big, and society can handle it. That's why all these socialist countries in Northern Europe with their elaborate social safety net and unemployment benefits show no signs of collapsing (no, Greece is not in Northern Europe and is not a good example; what really brought Greece down is corruption and uncontrolled spending and also corruption and a bit of corruption.) Working-class people will be complaining in the pubs about the freeloaders, but in truth, they're really not a threat as long as their numbers are kept low by motivating them to get a job.

      Here's also the big distinction between Communism and modern-day western-European Socialism (or let's use the less ambiguous term Social democracy). Communism does not sufficiently allow/motivate people to "become more" than their neighbor, thus denying human nature; therefore, it is doomed to fail. On the other extreme end of the spectrum, you have the laissez-faire doctrine of economic liberalism, as embodied in the US by ultralibertarianism, neoliberalism and neoconservatism - yes, that's all the major present-day US political movements with the (largely irrelevant) exception of the greens. This is also doomed to fail: throughout history, wealth has always found a way to aggregate, and a society that is not set up to effectively counterbalance this aggregation will eventually destabilize itself (ie. the poor and powerless will riot against the rich and powerful). As a result of all US political movements going full throttle for laissez-faire economic liberalism, income inequality in the US is at its highest value since a long time (and so is money's political influence). In my opinion, this is the single biggest threat to the USA and everything it stands for. The stable point lies in-between communism and laissez-faire capitalism. Progressive taxes are a large part of this because they promote a large middle class layer - people who have spending power (as opposed to the poor) and are motivated to spend all their money (as opposed to the rich). The associated turnover of money is the water that flows trough the waterwheel of a healthy economy.

      *gets off soapbox*

    60. Re:Title is misleading by tftp · · Score: 1

      When I studied in the university they had a few foreign students, including those from Africa, and they assured me that with their knowledge and education they will be ruling the roost back at home. They studied pretty hard, I must say.

    61. Re:Title is misleading by benjfowler · · Score: 1

      What will the thickies and retards do then?

      This is a very serious question.

    62. Re:Title is misleading by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Not in Proper English.

      Fixed it for ya.

    63. Re:Title is misleading by bondsbw · · Score: 1

      Many brilliant people do not recognize their full potential. Most of us know people who have had great ideas, as good or better than Bill Gates or Mark Zuckerberg.

      Success involves risk. It takes more than hard work and great ideas to succeed; sometimes, it just takes a good bit of luck. Many of us who are smart enough to come up with such ideas, are smart enough not to risk our livelihoods (and that of their families) on an idea that has a small chance of taking off. Others tried and failed, and despite having more potentially great ideas, they may no longer be in a position to take another risk, or they have been burned too badly.

      This is where the safety net makes sense: from the beginning, a social contract is made with those who take risks so that if their ideas succeed, they support those whose ideas didn't pan out. More people would accept this arrangement, and more good ideas would be tried. Other ideas will fail, and our society will benefit from the experience.

      To your point: I would gladly accept a system where those who don't participate in the risk-taking do not benefit from the social safety net.

      --
      All my liberal friends think I'm a conservative, all my conservative friends think I'm a liberal.
    64. Re:Title is misleading by js33 · · Score: 1

      Automation is making human labor irrelevant, regardless of union participation.

      That's a Luddite attitude if I ever saw one. To think that so many people on this site, many of whom work in high tech, would be such Luddites is mind-boggling.

      The recent boom and bust is a minor blip in the big scheme of things, and why would you ever expect advancement in anything without booms and busts? The truth of the matter is the more booming and busting, the wealthier we all become in the long run. The busts come because we as humans collectively take risks with our capital and labor, and without a willingness to take such risks to try something new, we would be forever stuck in the past and technology in particular would never advance.

      Over time, as technology advances, labor becomes more productive, that is, easier, but not without many failures on the way. Nor is it human nature to be satisfied with the fruits of one's labor: we always want more, and as long as technology advances, in the long run there will always be demand for all the wealth that all available labor can produce from all available technology.

      People talk about capital vs. labor, but capital is nothing more than the accumulation of fruits of labor that one has refrained from consuming at the time. Capital isn't just that of a financier or rentier class, either. If you work for wages and have any 401k or other retirement account, then you are providing your share of capital as well as labor to society, and you rightfully expect a return from both. If you ever want to retire, others have to pick up your labor where you left off, using the capital that you have accumulated in your account, and your retirement must come from returns to that capital, not labor, since you are not working anymore.

    65. Re:Title is misleading by Kjella · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Consider "Right to Work" as a simple example, it is NOT the case that these laws repealed some requirement that all unions contract be exclusive by law. Those exclusivity terms were negotiated between two free groups. Instead these laws scratch out, by government fiat, parts of existing contracts and make it illegal for two parties to agree these terms.

      Because you are creating a monopoly that under very similar circumstances between companies would run afoul of antitrust legislation. Market collusion is also voluntary among all the companies engaged in price fixing, would you like to make that 100% legal? Competition is not a natural state, the natural state is that someone goes all-in and captures the market and it stays captive through lock-in and anti-competitive practices. It's like claiming a one-party state is democracy because you can always choose not to vote.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    66. Re:Title is misleading by crutchy · · Score: 1

      fuck yeah... "you require more vespian gas"... doh!

    67. Re:Title is misleading by crutchy · · Score: 2

      poverty in the US is having a decent education, a paying job and a family, and then being made redundant by machines and having your home foreclosed, not being able to afford healthcare or education and living in shelters.

    68. Re:Title is misleading by MtHuurne · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The thinking is that there isn't enough useful work to be done.

      There is plenty of useful work to be done: children would benefit from smaller classes, the elderly would like more attention, cities could be made prettier, there are lots of things that can be researched. The problem is that no-one is willing to pay for those things: we're always looking for lower costs, lower taxes, not higher quality of life.

    69. Re:Title is misleading by fredprado · · Score: 1

      The concentration of money and power in the older generations, the high instability and low availability of jobs that require lower training times, and the diminishing salaries even for high training jobs, created increasingly more and more NEETs in the newer generations in Japan and a reduced interest in careers and consequently a reduced interest in forming families and having children.

      There are certainly a lot of motives for Japan's current situation, but the automation of almost all short training jobs is certainly one of them.

    70. Re:Title is misleading by bondsbw · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Surely, there will be some freeloaders, but so what?

      Your country must be more civilized. Where I live, the freeloaders are everywhere.

      One major problem is that the "system" is beyond the ability to control. The government provides assistance in all forms, but somehow that is never enough. Our government provides food, shelter, clothing, and emergency health care to the freeloaders. That's never enough though... now they need cell phones and laundry service and food/care for their pets and transportation and better living conditions. (Did I mention that despite the government assistance, they don't take care of themselves or their kids, so now there are more health care costs, etc.?)

      If you do work, you don't get much or any of that for free. You start at $0.00, and work for your money. Then you pay taxes, and buy those things I listed. By the time you pay for health insurance and everything else that puts you on the same level as a typical freeloader, you are left with little money to spend as you want. You work 40 hours per week, yet barely live any better than those who work 0 hours per week.

      So why slave away at a thankless job, away from my family during the day? I could be spending more quality time with my family, being lazy or doing whatever I can do without paying money for it... all while having all my needs and many of my wants provided for by the government check.

      --
      All my liberal friends think I'm a conservative, all my conservative friends think I'm a liberal.
    71. Re:Title is misleading by Trepidity · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Should all exclusivity agreements be banned, then?

      If a company can sign an contract agreeing to use one specific supplier as their exclusive supplier of candlesticks, why can't it, instead, do the same in-house, and sign a contract agreeing to use people from one particular labor union as its exclusive supplier of candlestick-making employees?

    72. Re:Title is misleading by crutchy · · Score: 1

      people on over $250,000 don't complian or even pay as much tax as you might think, because on high income the benefits of any tax deductions are better... for example if i buy a new suit "for work" (and for weddings etc) and i pay $1000 for it, when it comes to tax time i get $500 back for that suit because for a $250k salary you're paying 50% tax on most of it, so people in high incomes buy investment properties, etc to reduce their taxable income (which means even though they pay heaps of tax to begin with, they get 50% of their deductions back at tax time).

      if you make much less (say $25k) deductions are less important because the tax percentage is less, so instead of getting 50% of your deductions back, you might only get 15% back).

      anyone who buys something and says they will get all of its price back at tax time is ignorant because nobody gets taxed 100% of their income

    73. Re:Title is misleading by jbengt · · Score: 2

      No, and I mean NO! because central wealth distribution has been shown time and again to disincentivise people from actually doing something useful with their lives

      I would say, rather, that the typical job is what prevents most people from doing something useful with their lives today.

    74. Re:Title is misleading by Trepidity · · Score: 4, Informative

      Perhaps it's a little more complicated than forcing people to work with the threat of poverty?

      This is one reason Scandinavia's taken the path it has: the societies have bet (correctly, imo) that in the modern world, the quality of labor you get solely from threatening people "work or die!" is relatively low, and that labor forms an increasingly irrelevant part of a country's total GDP. What actually drives the economy are people who have some additional reason and motivation to work, and skills to do so at a higher level than basic drudgery. So there is a high minimum wage (around $18/hr in Denmark), and the entire unemployment system is geared towards retraining people (with free education) to fill high-skill jobs where there's a shortage of labor.

    75. Re:Title is misleading by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      no actually that's not really true... humanity is increasingly shortsighted, and while it seems like we are making a better tomorrow, we are really only making a better today for ourselves... it will be future generations that will pay the price

      ...not to mention the poor suckers who have to put up with direct environmental effects of industry (near where I live there is a large paper mill that stinks really bad some days, but at least the city slickers have lots of paper to waste)

    76. Re:Title is misleading by bbelt16ag · · Score: 1

      It better be some good drugs or i am so not going to live long. I want to be jacked into the matrix too..

      --
      NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER GIVE UP! "No limitations, no boundaries, there is no reason for them."
    77. Re:Title is misleading by slew · · Score: 1

      Consider "Right to Work" as a simple example, it is NOT the case that these laws repealed some requirement that all unions contract be exclusive by law. Those exclusivity terms were negotiated between two free groups. Instead these laws scratch out, by government fiat, parts of existing contracts and make it illegal for two parties to agree these terms.

      Government has always messed around with contracts. Consider minimum (or in some localities so-called "living") wage as another simple example. Instead of allowing two parties to agree on a wage less than some arbitrary minimum, the government by fiat makes this illegal. Why? Although it may or may not be the actual case, the intention was that these terms were deemed to be against the broader public interest.

      Why if you are free to join with another person and start a company, should you not be free to join with another person and start a Union.

      I don't think there are any laws against being free to join with another person to start a union in any state (right to work or not), Can you point to an example?

      Getting back to the orignal topic, in any society, there generally is an "order" to splitting up the spoils and bearing the burden. The problem is that most traditional societies, the association (be it familial, or fraternal) is considered to be an important determining factor on the spoils/burdens assignment, and actual merit is less of a factor. In an so-called "egalitarian" society, how would this be different? Because you associate with certain other folks or were born into a group would you be able to use this leverage against other groups? Notice how money really doesn't need to enter into this.

      The strange thing about money is one way to introduces a mathematical "pseudo-metric" or measure to compute leverage and thus imposes a partial-order (which is the function of any society than isn't anarchy). As with any such measures, a specific one-dimensional measure doesn't do justice to the multi-dimensional problem to measurement, but has some good properties, and some poor properties.

      Although you might argue for a different measure (say intelligence), what would you do with a child who was born less intelligent than you. How would you "gift" them some of your intelligence to improve their lot in life? Money is certainly not fair, and is far from perfect, but it has helped to create a system that preserves some of the natural desires of familial and fraternal orders in society. An alternate scheme would have to provide for this if there is any hope for an orderly transition (not that many folks that advocate these changes hope for an orderly transition, but more like a revolutionary transition).

      It's not to say that some of the makings of alternate systems don't exist today. For example, in China, often children that show some abilities in specialized areas are sometimes swept away to far away academies under the guise of creating a net benefit to society (but of course usually not to the individual benefit or the familial benefit). The fact that many folks find this unappealing serves to underscore the familial and fraternal orientation of what most of us have deemed to be a society. Something to think about when you talk about "egalitarian".

    78. Re:Title is misleading by nelsonal · · Score: 1

      True but only hoarders care about stuff, for the sake of stuff, people mostly care dearly about status (read that as people who envy/want to sleep with you) which is pretty close to zero sum.

      --
      Degaussing scares the bad magnetism out of the monitor and fills it with good karma.
    79. Re:Title is misleading by F'Nok · · Score: 1

      I agree completely, and the Scandinavian model is one I wish the rest of the world would hurry up and get to.

      When companies have complained about Australia having 'Scandinavian labour costs' I've always found that to be a positive indication that even if we're not doing it perfectly, we're doing it a whole lot better than a lot of other places! :)

      What I love even more, is when US companies make such complaints, then after cleaning up their act a bit for their Australian operations find that they are actually *even more profitable*.

      http://www.smh.com.au/small-business/franchising/dominos-defies-scandinavian-labour-costs-20110810-1ilog.html

      Minimum wages are a sham, we can pay people good money for their time, to do the jobs we don't want to do. :p

    80. Re:Title is misleading by Xeranar · · Score: 1

      We're reaching a point with automaton that as you stated we're looking at a society that needs to pursue nobler goals. We're living in a time when we as a society should be working less for greater money pulling money from the elites towards the middle and bottom. Meritocracies are past their usefulness as it has become an excuse to deny support to our surplus population.

    81. Re:Title is misleading by alexander_686 · · Score: 1

      Per capita per human - probably it has dropped. Per capita per horse - I would guess a increase but it would be just that - a guess.

      And in the old days there was a lot of cross over between a blacksmith and a farrier. Most blacksmiths could shoe a horse. Farriers are really a subclass of blacksmiths. Even today at contests farriers are judge on their ability to forge their own tools.

    82. Re:Title is misleading by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      There is one very big problem with what you're saying. In order to convince people to learn and master a demanding skill set (ie. medical training), there has to be an incentive. If no incentive is given, then you will find that people will not do anything more than the person beside them. Why work to improve yourself if you're going to be compensated just as much as the lazy git beside you?

      What you're stating sounds great, but like communism, devoting more than three minutes of thought to it reveals what a terrible idea it is. If there are no incentives, then the number of truly competent, skilled people will decline quickly. When those few are gone, all you will have are a bunch of lazy people who do the least amount of work possible to get by. Professions that require a lot of work and sacrifice (ie. medicine, law, etc.) to achieve will all but dry up. Why should anybody bother to work hard when, by societal structure, they will never be able to improve their lot in life?

    83. Re:Title is misleading by Richard+Dick+Head · · Score: 2

      To truly take advantage of this technological progress, we must rid ourselves of this. That will be the hardest challenge.

      I don't see how.

      When I started my current job, I busted my ass to catch up on things. When it typically took at least 3 months of downtime to get to know the system and describe it meaningfully to others, I did it in one. Now its been over a year and people have been here 5 years are sometimes asking me questions.

      Why is that? Simple pride. I like feeling like I earned the number on my paycheck. And the minute I feel like I'm standing still, I'll move on.

      A few people have been brought on since I came here, and they all were let go in a few weeks? Why? I guess they thought they were entitled to a salary, and were doing as little as little as possible to get it, and got a surprise kick out the door, probably without knowing exactly why, and probably for the same reason they lost their last job. Probably complaining about evil slave-driving capitalists, or someone other than themselves that is at fault.

      Taking pride in your work is essential, for both yourself, and the world. Not fussing about the evil greedy rich bastards, or the mob-run business-crushing unions. Not wait in the wings of the corrupt politician of your choice while life passes you by.

      The reason IT people are still employed in the US at all is because work is not all about salary, it is that everyone wants a person who takes pride in their work, and will pay generously for it in any denomination, for whatever generous is in the location of the worker. Self-absorbed lackeys are a dime a dozen, and you can get those anywhere you please for as little as possible, if that is what you want.

      Pride is a trait that remains consistent in people who have that specific brand of maturity whether they happen to be flipping burgers or running the country. If you don't have that, you're just another miserable lazy fuck that nobody wants to be around or hire (or turning into one as we speak) and your days are numbered.

      Taking pride in your work is as simple as deciding to do so. If you don't believe that, well, god help you, I guess you'll just another one of the many old brats in the world who is trying to optimize themselves into an adult version of their parasitic childhood, and destroying themselves and the world around them in the process.

    84. Re:Title is misleading by OneAhead · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Your country must be more civilized. Where I live, the freeloaders are everywhere.

      Now you're sounding like the populist politicians and the bitter working-class people complaining in the pubs. What you need to do is show statistics indicating that your government's budget is being brought onto its knees by unemployment benefits. I'm not saying there exists no country for which this is the case, but I'm pretty sure it isn't the case for any of the Northern European countries I was talking about, contrary to pervasive public perception.

      You start at $0.00, and work for your money.

      In order for the system I was talking about to work, the unemployment benefits should be far enough below the minimum wage to motivate a large enough percentage of people to work (which means relatively high minimum wages). In practice, it is not that simple, and there will always be groups of exceptions. But this condition is largely fulfilled in most functioning welfare societies, again, despite pervasive public perception to the contrary. If you will argue that it isn't the case for your country, by all means, but please do provide a statistic. Keeping in mind that anecdotes are not a statistics; as I said, there will and should be groups of exceptions.

      Your "you start at $0.00" brings us to a fascinating (if somewhat offtopic) aspect of the discussion. There is a political fringe group in the European Union that argues that everyone should receive the same basic unemployment package, whether they work or not. The package would allow people to have a healthy life, but not much luxury (small dwellings, no car, not all the latest newest gadgets,...) If you want to bring some luxury into your life, get a job. Labor would be very cheap for the employer because they don't need to pay you a full wage, only the difference between the baseline and a more wealthy lifestyle. The government would get all the money to pay everyone's baseline from very high VAT. This VAT would apply to imported goods, but not to goods that are exported and sold on other markets, which again would make manufacturing very competitive. Now I haven't performed or encountered a full economic analysis of this scheme, and I'm taking these people's claims that the scheme is vetted by economists with a huge grain of salt. So I don't know what to make out of it, but here are a couple of random thoughts:
      - Very high VAT would spawn a flourishing black market. The economic force behind this black market may (or may not) be strong enough to make the whole scheme collapse.
      - Possibly a more feasible way to get the money would be a combination of VAT and tax on production. I strongly suspect a working combination would be a VAT rate close to present-day welfare states, and the remaining tax on production would make your industries just as competitive as present-day welfare states (not very competitive but hanging in there, that is). You're just swapping labor costs and tax on labor for tax on production, and the outcome would not be all that different.
      - The most interesting part of this cranky scheme comes in when one considers a future society with advanced AI and robotics, in which a lot of work can be done by robots. A large percentage of people would be unemployed; it seems logical to somehow pay them from the money made by factories that are largely human-free. Otherwise, what good is human-free production if nobody can buy the goods?
      - Hypothetical counterpoint: people will always find a way to offer a service that other people will want to pay for, and no amount of technological advancement will change that. Think of the massive entertainment industry, which was largely nonexistent (or at least way smaller) in pre-industrial society.

      Again I'm neither in favor or against this scheme, and I'm not sure of the truth value of all the above arguments. At this point, I just see it as a fascinating thought experiment. I guess I'll make up my mind once more information is available.</offtopic>

    85. Re:Title is misleading by F'Nok · · Score: 1

      Like the U.S. itself? (Trust me, people here know it's pretty lame and nowhere near adequate for the actual cost of living.)

      Oh I'm sure many, if not most Americans realise that.

      But the US is one of the very few places where it appears to be considered a legitimate political argument to defend the practice of minimum wage jobs by claiming business would otherwise not be able to employ, or that the people in such jobs simply wouldn't be able to work at a reasonable wage.

    86. Re:Title is misleading by fikx · · Score: 1

      What you say is true in a lot of people, that there are those who want to be in power over others, but that's not the central issue. In most cases where someone is in advantage over another it's due more to competition than to pure desire to have domination over someone. The issue is more the perceived playing field that they are competing on...the 'evil banker' is considering themselves a better competitor in the playing field they see. They feel justified. Perceived survival in competition is a base level drive for everyone, some, not the majority, just take some known damaging actions as they claw their way to the top in trying to keep from getting behind everyone else clawing along side you.
      It's not quite as bleak as you make out that all humanity currently desires to lord power over others....there's a more basic drive that will either adjust on it's own or need to be adjusted on purpose: the perceived playing field will need to get brought into some kind of shared image instead of individual one-off version for everyone.
      As far as the minimum wage jobs and similar, I see technology helping get the most out of each person. Right now lots of people work jobs that do not use their full potential, i.e. could be performed by part of a person , not needing 100% of a person. but they have to put a lot of their resources into doing less than 100% most of the time. Basically wasted talents because the role can currently only be performed by a person since we lack the technology to cover the gap...the gap between what technology can do (what % of a person it can replace) and the number of jobs that only need that % of a person...labor jobs use say 15-20 % of a persons focus and ability and technology is somewhat able to cover that...under certain circumstances. Once technology can fill the place of say 80-90 % of what a person can do (talking averages unfortunately, which is always misleading when talking people) then we can drop technology in place for most of the menial jobs out there , ranging for those that take 15-20% up to that 90% which will cover much more of the jobs needed to keep a society/city/nation/whatever running. The we'll have a whole new playing field and will see if our abilities then go up or if it just frees us up to do other things. But, it will happen over a LONG period of time and won't have the catastrophic impact that many envision...

      --
      AB HOC POSSUM VIDERE DOMUM TUUM
    87. Re:Title is misleading by suomynonAyletamitlU · · Score: 1

      But some people don't try. They don't want to try. If given a choice between a free shack and a nice home they can work to afford, they will choose the shack. How do we get them to contribute something positive to society, and to take the risks that the safety net is intended to promote?

      If you were content with your life, and someone was shouting that you ought to be more ambitious because of some principle they hold, how would you view them? Some people prefer to live in a shack because it solves a problem. For example, they may be paranoid or OCD, and not needing to work for a living cuts their stress tenfold. They may be hated by the nearby populace (racism, classism, religious prejudice, etc), and not courageous enough to go searching the country for a place where they belong. In each of these cases, trying to force them to work normally (or expecting incentives to work and thinking badly of them when they don't) is arguably the wrong choice.

      In these circumstances, people are not contributing positively only because other factors are contributing negatively. If you want positive contributions, you have to solve their problems first, whether that's teaching them to solve their own problems, or incentivizing others to help them.

      And by the way, saying "They don't try. They don't want to try." is expecting incentives to work, and thinking badly of people when they don't. There are a lot of things "I don't want to try because", which is different from "I don't want to try period." Some of them are curable fears, anxieties, etc. Some of them are based on opinions. Some are just cultural ignorance. But more often than you seem to give credit for, those reasons are, well, reasonable.

    88. Re:Title is misleading by maz2331 · · Score: 1

      IIRC, Sweden has a rather small population, but exports huge amounts of oil and other raw materials along with very high-tech products. Thus, they have an income stream that can support a huge welfare state with relatively few people engaged in production.

    89. Re:Title is misleading by Culture20 · · Score: 1

      nature will impose a new equilibrium that leaves us with a smaller population.

      It's human nature to fight over available resources, and dead people use less resources than VR-drugged catatonic people. What would you use such people for? Maybe processing power a la Hyperion or just as NPCs in the virtual playgrounds of the rich (the rich avatars get super powers).

    90. Re:Title is misleading by ultranova · · Score: 1

      Automation is shifting repetitive, uncreative, brutish work to repetitive, uncreative, brutish machines, thus freeing humans to pursue nobler interests.

      That might be true in a better world. But in this one, being freed from your job by an automaton - or any other way - means the only interest your pursue is that from overdue bills.

      But for the larger society, the benefits outweigh the costs.

      Do they? Does financially ruining many and leaving the rest with a sword hanging over their head benefit the society - which, after all, is just all these people together? Or does it simply benefit the few fat cats on the top?

      In every change some prosper, some lose. But the same happens in every status quo. We may as well choose technological progress.

      The problem is that the amount of losers and winners are in no way balanced, and neither are the losses and gains.

      If we are compassionate, we can give the displaced workers opportunities to learn new skills.

      Training costs money which the unemployed don't have, and in any case those new skills won't help any because they, too, can and will be automated.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    91. Re:Title is misleading by drsmithy · · Score: 1

      for example if i buy a new suit "for work" (and for weddings etc) and i pay $1000 for it, when it comes to tax time i get $500 back for that suit because for a $250k salary you're paying 50% tax on most of it

      No you're not.
      The federal tax bracket for $250k is 33%, and even that only applies from ~$180k upwards. There are of course state and local taxes as well, but they're not going to come within a bull's roar of "paying 50% tax on most of it".

      There are only a handful of countries where the overall tax burden is near 50%, and the USA - one of the lowest taxing developed countries in the world - is most assuredly not one of them.

    92. Re:Title is misleading by Ozoner · · Score: 1

      > How do we get them to contribute something positive to society,

      In a Democracy it should be up to the people to choose whether they to work hard or coast and enjoy their family, hobbies, etc.

      This is a test of whether you really believe in democracy and the free market. Clearly you don't.

    93. Re:Title is misleading by Balthisar · · Score: 1

      As long as it's cheaper than the competition. That's a key point. I live and work in China for a global, US-based manufacturer of complicated, expensive, high-end goods. Every one of our new plants is highly automated despite the laughably low wages. Why? Because the competition is automating, too. It doesn't matter that 150 labor hours per unit only has a cost of $600. If we can automate and bring that down to 100 labor hours versus the competitors' average of 110, that's an advantage to us. And with the ability to depreciate equipment over time, TARR, and other financial moves that I don't fully appreciate, it often doesn't matter that the up-front cost of automation is significantly higher than non-automation.

      And by the way: automation isn't significantly more expensive than manual processes, and when speed is a concern, it's actually much cheaper.

      --
      --Jim (me)
    94. Re:Title is misleading by Areyoukiddingme · · Score: 1

      Or go ahead and don't buy it, but you will be ridiculed and feel inferior and unhappy. These messages fall on fertile ground: they trigger people's instinctive tendencies to appear superior as to attract a better mate.

      Fuck. That explains why I haven't found a wife. I don't have an iPhone!

    95. Re:Title is misleading by dryeo · · Score: 1

      There's quite a demand for blacksmiths. The one I know spends a lot of time teaching and likely makes more money then you.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    96. Re:Title is misleading by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      This is why I have been saying for years that capitalism, like communism and fascism and every other ism, is simply doomed. i mean what is the entire basis of capitalism? trading your labor for capital which you then trade for what you want...but what if nobody wants your labor?

      This is why I believe that ALL of the governments currently in power around the world WILL end in violent upheaval, there is simply no way to avoid it. The rich that control the means of production certainly aren't gonna want their system to be overthrown, yet there are children being born at this very moment that will simply have no way of trading their labor for capital because their labor simply isn't needed. you are playing education musical chairs and eventually the ones left with a seat will number in the few hundred thousands while you have billions of people, the numbers just won't add up and these people won't just quietly crawl off to die.

      I mean look at our current situation, you have millions out of work and many millions more being paid directly or indirectly by the state in "make work" jobs, like take the stink over Walmart paying such low wages. Anybody think that if Walmart was forced to pay a living wage they couldn't replace a good 80%+ of those jobs with machines? or how about fast food? you could have all fast food joints replaced by automated assembly lines and I would argue that the food would end up better as you'd take out the variables and the mistakes and in the long run it would be cheaper than paying those people a living wage.

      To me what finally proves beyond a shadow of a doubt the current system is doomed is this little fact...you could wipe out half the people on this planet, literally line up and execute half of the people currently alive and the quality of living wouldn't go down in fact it would go UP because those that were left would actually be valuable for their labor!

      A person with an IQ of 94 is simply never gonna be a rocket scientist and even those with higher IQs will find less and less work available because hundreds are fighting for the same job, so the educational treadmill is gonna fail which is what we are seeing now, all of these kids with worthless educations because their labor isn't needed. so the only real choices are to bury the carcass that is capitalism or pretend it still works while paying the vast majority to do nothing.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    97. Re:Title is misleading by dryeo · · Score: 1

      And how are they going to finance making a plant? Perhaps by picking bottles?

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    98. Re:Title is misleading by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      Well when those workers end up being 30-50%+ of your population you'll see how much consolation those starving masses have for you as they burn the whole thing to the ground.

      If you think those starving masses are gonna meekly crawl off and die like they did during the 30s I have some magic beans you might be interested in, the days of the poor meekly crawling off to die are over, they WILL fight to survive and if they gotta get bloody to do it? Oh well.

      That is why I tell people be ready, because there is still 2 more bubbles that have yet to burst and when they do shit is gonna get NASTY. The first is the education bubble, which we are already seen record defaults on student loans so that one should be happening soon, followed by the financial bubble which when that one pops not only is your money gonna be worth nothing more than TP, but all those that had 401Ks and 403Bs are gonna be completely wiped out overnight.

      You may see some future utopia where the machine does all the work and man lives in luxury, and you may be right, but i think that utopia is gonna be paid for in blood as those at the top try to hoard all the loot the machines make for them and then are shocked when the peasants show them what happened to the rich under a certain period of French History.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    99. Re:Title is misleading by BitZtream · · Score: 1

      A bottom 20% income in the USA (assuming $80K/yr as a reference level) will place you into a cockroach-infested, 100 years old apartment building in a bad part of town. Your life expectancy will depend on how good you are with a knife (or with a gun, in Chicago.) You will be unemployable for many reasons, and your income will be officially around the poverty level.

      Only if you're too stupid to move out of an overpriced city to a more reasonable place to live. Yes, if you live in an over populated area (otherwise known as a city) then its much more expensive to find someplace to live thats affordable.

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
    100. Re:Title is misleading by hairyfeet · · Score: 2

      The average person in the USA, last figures I saw, had an IQ of just 103, now that is the average which of course means half are below that....what would you do with them? Throw them in a camp? make up a war and have a draft so they could be used up as cannon fodder?

      You simply can't educate your way out of this, it just won't work. For decades those people could still feed their families, live decent lives, either by working in a factory or some other manual labor and the simple fact is those jobs are gone, more of the few we have left like road work and construction will be gone in less than 30 years.

      so I'm sorry but it just won't work, the record number of student loan defaults because these kids are going straight from the graduation to the unemployment line proves that you just can't make an entire society of rocket scientists and even if you could the world doesn't need half a billion rocket scientists.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    101. Re:Title is misleading by tftp · · Score: 1

      Only if you're too stupid to move out of an overpriced city to a more reasonable place to live.

      75% of the US population live in cities. Draw your own conclusions...

    102. Re:Title is misleading by DeadCatX2 · · Score: 1

      central wealth distribution has been shown time and again to disincentivise people from actually doing something useful with their lives

      The good news is that I, and just about every American on every side of the political spectrum, agree with you entirely. We do not want a central wealth distribution. We are also very, very far from a such a distribution; you would be forgiven if you only thought there were three parts of the left pie in this graph of wealth by quintiles because the bottom 40% of Americans have about 0.3% of America's wealth (and this is coincidentally about equal to that of the combined owners of Wal-Mart)

      And the sad thing is that we probably don't underestimate the inequality that badly, if it weren't for those at the very top. I'm not talking about the 1%. Or even the 0.1%. Or the 0.01%. You need a couple more 0's because the problem is the top 400. If you remove those individuals from the equation as outliers, then Americans probably have an accurate estimate of wealth inequality. The top 400 are not only gaining greater wealth faster than the mere 1%, but the rate is increasing, a term which I have seen called "economic redshift".

      Personally, while I do not wish to see a central wealth distribution, I wouldn't mind seeing our current wealth distribution move a little bit more toward the center.

      --
      :(){ :|:& };:
    103. Re:Title is misleading by DeadCatX2 · · Score: 1

      You know what you are relying on, when you talk about printing money and giving it away as 'basic income'? You are relying on other people's labour somewhere, that supposedly will keep subsidising you by taking your freshly printed dollars.

      Does it have to be someone's labor? What if our society could largely be run by machines and a small percentage of workers who maintain them in exchange for a higher standard of living?

      Have you considered that we may end up with more people than we have useful work for them to do, or that we might have useful work but it isn't valuable enough to earn a living? The fun part comes when you realize that with a basic income, you could do away with the minimum wage entirely. All that work that wasn't valuable enough to earn a living can now be done by someone on a basic income.

      --
      :(){ :|:& };:
    104. Re:Title is misleading by DeadCatX2 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, the student loan bubble is going to pop. But I don't think it will be that nasty, actually. I'm willing to bet that a lot of colleges will just go belly up, as there's no real short-term need for colleges and they don't pay politicians enough to warrant a bailout.

      The financial bubble, though, will fuck everything up. But I think there's a lot of inertia and that maybe some radical new economy will spring from the ashes.

      --
      :(){ :|:& };:
    105. Re:Title is misleading by DeadCatX2 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, and maybe we could recognize that in order to feel fullfilled and needed, some people like to work 50-60 hours a week - and let them.

      Fixed that for you. There's no reason we can't have a typical work week of 20-30 hours while also having people who work twice that with overtime, and having them paid time and a half for their efforts.

      --
      :(){ :|:& };:
    106. Re:Title is misleading by DeadCatX2 · · Score: 1

      We will not reach truly autonomous levels in our lifetime, but I believe we have already reached the point where we have more people than we have valuable work for them to do, where by valuable work I mean a wage you can live on.

      Think of it this way. You've got a job that takes 20 people to do, and you replace it with one robot, two operators, a maintenance guy, a designer, and a salesman. You've replaced 20 people with 5 - now what are the other 15 people going to do? (btw, the designer's job is no longer needed once the robot blueprints are finished, and the salesman requires a continuous stream of robots to sell so his job is also short term)

      --
      :(){ :|:& };:
    107. Re:Title is misleading by mirix · · Score: 1

      Oil is more of Norway's game. Sweden exports some, but much less (it is about 5% of swedish exports, while oil and gas are 60-some percent of Norway's).

      Sweden was always into lumber, paper. Traditionally steel, but less now, and steel products, like bearings. Some fish. Now more mobile equipment (ericsson), pharmaceuticals, cars and trucks (volvo, scania, etc).

      oh, also ikea shit.

      That's besides the point though. The reason they can afford their welfare state is pretty simple. They actually tax their corporations. Imagine that.

      --
      Sent from my PDP-11
    108. Re:Title is misleading by turbidostato · · Score: 1

      Title is misleading more than that.

      On one hand, yes, automation makes human labor irrelevant disregarding unions.

      And then, there's the strawman: unions are not there "to protect jobs", but to protect labour conditions, a very different thing.

    109. Re:Title is misleading by rtb61 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yeah, I remeber when we were going to share in the rewards of automation, shorter working weeks, something like a 6 hour 4 day week, with the rest of the time spent in leisure and learning.

      'SUCKERS'

      Somehow all those benefits went to the top 1% and the rest were told not be be greedy (say what?) entitlement seeking unionists as their working hours went up and their wages went down.

      Sharing the benefits of productivity increases became a massive exercise in I've got mine and fuck you, all promoted by corporate mass media and institutionalised by lobbyists and corrupt politicians.

      'erm' yeah, we don't need unionists we need death squads to permanently silence the working in poverty. Seriously who is kidding who. It is becoming pretty obvious that we need unions now more than even to put an end to the corruption of our society by the psychopathic 1%.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    110. Re:Title is misleading by MrKaos · · Score: 1

      Automation is making human labor irrelevant, regardless of union participation.

      As long as electricity is cheaper than slavery.

      --
      My ism, it's full of beliefs.
    111. Re:Title is misleading by Wildclaw · · Score: 1

      what really brought Greece down is corruption and uncontrolled spending and also corruption and a bit of corruption.

      What really brought Greece down was the Euro. Currency standards have always been horrible in bad times.

      Currency standards allow foreign and non-foreign entities to control and strangle your economy, which is a really horrible thing.

      Yes, Greece is corrupt. But if they hadn't been caught in the Euro, that corruption would have had a far lower impact on the economy as a whole. Instead of a full out depression, their currency would have inflated a bit, and non-basic stuff imported stuff would have gotten more expensive, while most everyone continued on working as normal.

    112. Re:Title is misleading by Wildclaw · · Score: 2

      You know what happened to those countries that spent more than they took in? HYPERINFLATION.

      Hyperinflation happens to countries who lose control of their production resources via

      * Foreign debt traps because they aren't a sovereign fiat country. (See Weimar)
      * Resource destruction. (See Zimbabwe land reform)
      * Loss of government taxing legitimacy, meaning that it really isn't their production resources any more. (Look for hyperinflations related to civil war and you'll probably find some good examples)

      I think I may have missed some reason, but it all comes down to production resources in the end. Hyperinflation doesn't happen because the government spends more than it taxes. It happen because your country can't produce enough to cover the basic needs of the population/government.

    113. Re:Title is misleading by bestalexguy · · Score: 1

      Yeah, and as we all know Sweden is the country with the highest unemployment humanly possible and its economy is about to collapse. People are rioting in the streets and even camp outside ... no, wait, that wasn't Sweden...

      Sweden has (for the time being) a low percentage of people in the lowest level of society (not even close to 15%). Those, to be clear, who don't do good at school, have kids at 16 with no family income, commit crimes disproportionally more than other groups, get Obamaphones and need affirmative action to get a decent job. And is far from sources of unneeded/undesired immigration (Africa for Europe and Mexico for the US).

      But these problems aren't even necessary to destroy a healthy economy. Overpopulation and imbalance in pension systems are slower, but totally able to do the job.

    114. Re:Title is misleading by Anne+Thwacks · · Score: 1
      By ditch digger, do you meaan back-hoe or its operator?

      I am just waiting to see the results of a Google Maps driven autonomous back-hoe! Arrgh - our Internet has gone down - and the landline - and the cellphone tower! We are doomed, I tell you, doomed!

      --
      Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
    115. Re:Title is misleading by diamondmagic · · Score: 1

      It has nothing to do with production. Hyperinflation happens only because the government prints money to cover it's operating costs. This bids up prices, compared to taxing the money or issuing treasuries. It's as simple as that.

    116. Re:Title is misleading by MrL0G1C · · Score: 1

      Well what is wrong with the minimum wage?

      Are you serious? It's too low.

      Why should anyone who works hard not be able to afford to buy they own property - that is grossly unfair.

      --
      Waterfox - a Firefox fork with legacy extension support, security updates and better privacy by default.
    117. Re:Title is misleading by Anne+Thwacks · · Score: 1

      American IQ points are obviously smaller than everyone else's, like their gallons!

      --
      Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
    118. Re:Title is misleading by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      That's more to do with poor economic policy (which interestingly the UK is now copying) and a rapidly ageing population. Even so their unemployment rate is 4.2%, while the UK's is 7.8%, so they are actually doing pretty well. The UK also suffers from a lot of underemployment.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    119. Re:Title is misleading by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      No-one complaining about minimum wage is arguing that everyone should be paid the same, merely that the minimum should be enough to live reasonably on. People on minimum wage get all kinds of benefits from the government - subsidised rent, tax breaks/credits, free school meals and so forth, but still can't afford to live what wider society considers a reasonable standard of life.

      It's even worse in the US because the quality of healthcare available to you depends on your ability to pay. Being on minimum wage can literally kill you. On the other hand some people have vast wealth, hoard it, avoid paying taxes and then when things start to go wrong don't get fired and chucked out of their mansions for not paying the rent, they get a nice fat government bail-out and golden parachute into another cushy job.

      In other words there needs to be more balance between the two extremes of society, there needs to be a higher minimum standard of living at the bottom and the rules, like paying your share of tax, need to apply equally to everyone.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    120. Re:Title is misleading by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Your country must be more civilized. Where I live, the freeloaders are everywhere.

      I really, really doubt it. That is the perception in the UK, but it isn't true. It's just a myth that has been created by endless newspaper articles and TV shows about the relatively small number of families that are freeloaders with no desire to work.

      For example there is a perception that people on benefits are just lazy and have little desire to work. Government ministers harp on about them all the time. Actually 60% of people on benefits are working already, they just don't earn enough to be taken off income support and housing benefit. The majority of people out of work do want to find a job, but there are not that many to go around and there are already at least 1 million people who are underemployed and looking for more work as well.

      It is easy to rail against the poor. Politicians use it as anal lube to grease you up before screwing you over. Newspapers and trashy TV channels use it to sell their rags and make you look at their ads. It distorts the public's perception and the governments policy to the detriment of pretty much everyone.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    121. Re:Title is misleading by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      What? Last time I checked corporations flee countries when they get taxed.

      Or ... so I heard...

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    122. Re:Title is misleading by flyneye · · Score: 1

      On the bright side, this can only slow inflation. Unions add to the cost of goods and services everywhere, multiple times per product, too.
      Union made/milled/mined/etc. raw materials driven to a factory by a union driver, unloaded on a union dock, made into product at the union factory, then driven again union style to the store , where people payed regular wages , stock and sell it to you. If we totally remove "union" from the previous sentence and replace with "people payed regular wages" then we have cut HUGE amounts of overhead, the company can stay in the U.S., and the "people payed regular wages" can now get ahead or actually afford those goods and services now. Win/ Win /Win!
      Hey, when Ford made workers do 12+ hour days with a 10 minute lunch to eat/poo/rest, we needed a union. Standards of worker treatment are now laws and new industry (and jobs) are suppressed by the cost of dealing w/ unions. Talk about stifling innovation too!
      Good riddance to unions!

      --
      *Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
    123. Re:Title is misleading by Eunuchswear · · Score: 1

      But some people don't try. They don't want to try. If given a choice between a free shack and a nice home they can work to afford, they will choose the shack. How do we get them to contribute something positive to society, and to take the risks that the safety net is intended to promote?

      You don't. Just don't worry about it. They don't cost very much.

      Efficient systems are brittle. When building a society efficiency is not the goal.

      --
      Watch this Heartland Institute video
    124. Re:Title is misleading by Eunuchswear · · Score: 1

      This is where the safety net makes sense: from the beginning, a social contract is made with those who take risks so that if their ideas succeed, they support those whose ideas didn't pan out. More people would accept this arrangement, and more good ideas would be tried. Other ideas will fail, and our society will benefit from the experience.

      Which explains why "socialist" European countries have higher social mobility than the US.

      --
      Watch this Heartland Institute video
    125. Re:Title is misleading by bogjobber · · Score: 1

      I've been peripherally involved with many different types of unions, and while they certainly can have their problems, saying unions were "just as evil as the overlords they were created to overthrow" is such a gross misstatement that I cant' imagine you know the actual history of the labor movement.

      Cronyism and protectionism are bad, but not even in the same conversation as what companies do to workers. Unions aren't beating and murdering people. Unions aren't giving people horrible, chronic diseases and then leaving them to die without assistance. And I'm not talking about ancient history, this is something that was common practice well into the 80s, and to a lesser extent still is today. Read up on the history of labor struggles in the US, it's not pretty.

      Most of the employment laws and benefits we enjoy as US citizens are the result of generations of back-breaking struggle, and we're giving them our rights back just as quickly as we can, without even thinking, kowtowing to the same pro-corporate policies that were used to terrorize the generations before us into submission. The "unions are just as bad as the corporations" nonsense that seems to be taken at face value nowadays is nothing more than fossilized propaganda.

    126. Re:Title is misleading by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      You are gonna have to burn the place to the ground before anything "springs up from the ashes" and when every person with a 401K, every person that is retired and is no longer able to work, is told "All your money is gone, go fuck off and die now" the shit is gonna get UGLY, violent revolution is frankly not out of the question. You will have the teeming masses of poor mixed with pretty much anybody that made less than half a mil all being wiped out overnight and the government unable to pay their bills so no more welfare, disability, social security, that shit is gonna get fucking nasty but quick.

      After all you have a country that loves weapons, has a national guard armory in every small town loaded to the gills with 50 cals and RPGs, and as Libya and Syria saw it takes less than 4 hours in your average machine shop to make any old Ford into a technical. Without any belief in the currency there goes your law enforcement because they sure as shit ain't getting shot for free and i have a feeling, again like Libya, that if they turn the military on the people you'll have a large faction turn against the government.

      After all I'm sure if you'd have asked the leaders of the USSR in the 70s they'd have told you the USSR was fine and would last another couple of centuries at least. these things have a habit of becoming a firestorm VERY quick and getting completely out of control.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    127. Re:Title is misleading by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      Oh the sad part is that is after they have been dumbing down the living hell out of the tests since the late 1970s, ever since the NAACP first raised a stink and accused the IQ tests of "being racist" because so many black teens were coming up listed as what would have been labeled retarded in the pre-1975 test.

      Of course in a perfect example of why political correctness is a failure instead of asking the obvious question, which would be "What is going on in black schools and neighborhoods that is causing so many kids to test poorly?" they simply lowered the standards, then lowered them some more, then lowered them some more, to the point I heard there are several major districts like Detroit that don't even give the kids IQ tests at all anymore for fear of being called racist.

      So sadly that 103 IQ is actually very high because its not counting all those teens that aren't getting tested at all. Depressing huh?

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    128. Re:Title is misleading by Dodgy+G33za · · Score: 1

      Dunno how old you are but this sounds like me talking, maybe 20 years ago. Congratulations, you are one of the few that has ability and focus. Believe me neither a a common commodity in people (although many people may think they are).

      The problem is that our society will go to hell in a hand basket when (not if) there is mass layoffs and no new jobs. We are already seeing the start of this trend. What is needed is a big shift in our society, or it will end in tears.

      To misquote:
      First they outsourced the textile workers to Asia, but I said good, cheaper clothes for me.
      Then they outsourced the auto makers to Asia, but I said good, cheaper more reliable cars for me.
      Then they replaced the Asians with robots, but at least some of the robots were our robots.
      Then they outsourced the thinking jobs to strong AI, and no-one was left to buy anything except the people that owned the robots and computers. But that was okay because they are the only ones that matters.

      If we don't get this right, in about 20-30 years the rich will be trying to figure out how to get rid of the other 95% of the population without causing too much inconvenience.

    129. Re:Title is misleading by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      some people don't try. They don't want to try. If given a choice between a free shack and a nice home they can work to afford, they will choose the shack. How do we get them to contribute something positive to society, and to take the risks that the safety net is intended to promote?

      That's a good question, since our entire society is set up to convince them to be mindless assholes. Television is disruptive and derisive — not without merit, I grew up watching PBS mostly but let's face it, mass media is ass media. The state of education in this country is pathetic, and in the state in which I live (California) it is doubly so. And while slavery is illegal in this country, we favor trade with a nation whose exports are often founded upon it — we have not actually banned slavery, we have simply exported it. Nearly everything that comes out of nearly every politician's mouth is a lie or at best, a half-truth. Banks are being bailed out of problems they created deliberately for profit while those very same banks are using the problems as opportunities by taking away people's homes, which then sit empty and depreciate because no one can afford them unless they are foreclosed upon first. And while joblessness is on the rise (forget the "unemployment" rate, which counts not those who want to work but aren't, but those who are currently collecting unemployment insurance benefits) the trend towards exporting the jobs (and again, in many cases having them performed by slaves or at best people working under conditions illegal in this country) is only continuing apace, if not accelerating.

      It is difficult to understand how to motivate people in this situation, because this situation is well and rightly fucked.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    130. Re:Title is misleading by Dodgy+G33za · · Score: 1

      When people rail against 'free loaders', welfare cheats and the like, they often fail to spot the biggest freeloaders of them all. Those that inherit their wealth. From a social standpoint, they are as useless as the people you identity as freeloaders.

      What really gets on my goat is that I pay around 35% tax on my hard earned. Those with inherited wealth pay much less than that on the money that they gain through investments. It is nominally 25% here in Australia, but the world is set up by them for them, so with a bit of creative accounting they pay nothing, or negotiate cents in the dollar.

      Personally I am fine with taxation. It is the cost to pay to live in a civilised society, But the fact that the super rich get off scott free has gotta change.

    131. Re:Title is misleading by flyneye · · Score: 1

      "Yes, laws enacted after much lobyying by unions."

                What, did the unions tell you that? Try agencies like OSHA and others. Bet the unions are responsible for the sun shining too.
      I picture your reply in Woody Allens voice.

      --
      *Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
    132. Re:Title is misleading by Trepidity · · Score: 1

      There's nothing like that with unions, either. Companies are not forced to sign agreements with unions: if they don't want exclusive use of their labor, they can refuse to sign, and hire replacement workers instead.

    133. Re:Title is misleading by rusl · · Score: 1

      This is all to be said in a Woody Allen voice.

      Only owners should be allowed to organise! If people who do the work get organised that is EVIL!

      OSHA is something that happened by itself when our benevolent corporate leadership decided to do us all one better in the name of Ayn Rand.

      BE EFFICIENT!

      (...at what?)

      Yes Sir!

      --
      Stupidity is its own reward.
    134. Re:Title is misleading by Eunuchswear · · Score: 1

      You idiot.

      Where the fuck do you think OSHA came from?

      --
      Watch this Heartland Institute video
    135. Re:Title is misleading by JesseMcDonald · · Score: 1

      The thinking is that there isn't enough useful work to be done. Machines will do most of the grunt work, and you only need x engineers/electricians/other useful jobs per 100,000 people, so what should everyone else do?

      There is an obvious answer to this problem, and that is to own the machines. The prejudices against investors and shareholders, and especially inheritance, are exactly the wrong response. If the demand for human labor is decreasing in favor of automation, we need to own that automation, and ensure that our children inherit that ownership. We particularly need to get over the idea that everyone should start out from scratch. That may be practical when the main form of capital is labor, but it's not a reasonable answer when labor is being replaced with automation. Almost everyone inherits the capacity for labor from their parents, but with the demand for labor falling that isn't good enough any more. Providing one's children with seed capital and knowledge of how to manage it is becoming more and more essential.

      --
      "The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Bastiat
    136. Re:Title is misleading by pete6677 · · Score: 1

      Sure they can - if they want their facilities to be vandalized, their employees and customers harassed by union goons, and other unionized workers like UPS to refuse to deliver to them. Quite some choice there.

    137. Re:Title is misleading by kaatochacha · · Score: 1

      At that point, there is chaos, the machines get destroyed, and we start all over again.

    138. Re:Title is misleading by Electricity+Likes+Me · · Score: 1

      History however has shown time and time again that an upper-class that feels itself untouchable usually...isn't.

      It's not like the soldiers of the world's most powerful armed forces are rewarded with a life of luxury for their service, and their sworn to protect the people, not the corporations even if they seem to be used that way sometimes.

      A sufficient level of automation leaving most of the world's population disenfranchised and unemployed? The latter is the exact recipe which led to the uprisings that finally ousted dictators in Egypt, Libya and is presently driving the revolution in Syria.

    139. Re:Title is misleading by mjwalshe · · Score: 1

      Er No a "Blacksmith" is a technician or a skilled craftsman and blacksmiths /farriers can make quiet a good living - Engineering already has a poor status vs other professions please don't make it any worse.

    140. Re:Title is misleading by mjwalshe · · Score: 1

      you probably should not call a blacksmith a farrier :-)

    141. Re:Title is misleading by mjwalshe · · Score: 1

      Heard of the AMA and the BMA - They also function as Unions and I know every Union in the Uk is in awe at how good a deal the GP (Family doctors) when that contract got negotiated

    142. Re:Title is misleading by Electricity+Likes+Me · · Score: 1

      If we are compassionate, we can give the displaced workers opportunities to learn new skills.

      As we move towards a post scarcity society some questions are raised that can only be answered by something closely resembling central wealth redistribution. Not full blown communism but the guarantee of a reasonable standard of living for everyone, with the opportunity to get more if you want to. Much of Europe is basically operating on this principle at the moment, and as time passes I feel we'll see a higher standard emerge.

      No, and I mean NO! because central wealth distribution has been shown time and again to disincentivise people from actually doing something useful with their lives. If you earn enough from benefits, and your benefits reduce if you work/produce value, then why do anything useful? And Benefit Dependency is a really nasty pernicious place to be in.

      This is functionally indistinguishable to where we just give everyone a fixed income from the government or something similar. The problem with benefit dependency is when it doesn't scale properly with income level - i.e. a necessary part of career advancement manages to actually reduce your standard of living compared to not doing it.

      A properly scaled system doesn't suffer from this. A system where we simply never remove the benefits doesn't suffer from this, which is what the OP was saying.

    143. Re:Title is misleading by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      How will they convince public sector unions, doctors, lawyers... that their standard of living will be that of the average citizen?

      There's a big problem with this social change you claim is coming (which seems to sound a lot like Marxism - "to each according to his needs, from each according to his abilities"):

      How exactly do you convince people to put out the effort to get a better job, and deal with the longer hours and higher stress associated with that career, if they're not going to get anything in return for it, and will live in the same crappy little apartment as someone who's just a janitor, or doesn't bother to work at all?

      With lots of automation (perhaps rendering janitors and waiters obsolete), there's going to be tons of people who are totally unable to work at all, because they won't have the intelligence and dedication needed to get a job as a doctor or engineer (things that can't be automated), and won't have the creativity needed to be an artist or musician. So society will either have to eliminate all these people in death camps, or provide them with a salary even though they contribute nothing to society in the way of labor. Don't forget all their kids, since these people who have no jobs will have plenty of time on their hands and will be busy having kids.

      So if you can have the same standard of living either 1) working your ass off to go to medical school (which presumably is free in this brave new society), so you can work long hours as a doctor/surgeon and have a crappy marriage because you're never home, or 2) don't do shit, just party, play video games, and get pregnant, why would anyone choose #1 unless they're really driven to? I haven't done a survey, but I'm pretty sure not all doctors are doing it just because they love it that much.

    144. Re:Title is misleading by Electricity+Likes+Me · · Score: 1

      Giving everyone a basic income would provide them a safety net, encouraging risk-taking and innovation. Whoever does succeed contributes more back to the societal safety net.

      But some people don't try. They don't want to try. If given a choice between a free shack and a nice home they can work to afford, they will choose the shack. How do we get them to contribute something positive to society, and to take the risks that the safety net is intended to promote?

      Then, by being a thorough accountant of society, you realize that you're not just providing them with a free shack, you're actively disincentivizing criminality and thus preventing them causing a much greater drain on surrounding society.

      Police force, hospitals and shattered families aren't some sort of unrelated cost.

    145. Re:Title is misleading by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Actually, yes. I don't see how there's any advantage in any kind of exclusivity agreement, unless there's some sort of malfeasance going on (under the table, so to speak). All these agreements do is limit competition, and that's never a good thing in a market economy.

      Remember all those no-bid contracts with the US government in the middle east (such as with Halliburton)? How were those helpful to anyone besides the benefactor of the contract, and whichever politicians were getting paid off?

    146. Re:Title is misleading by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      If you earn enough from benefits, and your benefits reduce if you work/produce value, then why do anything useful?

      With the "basic income" idea that's been floated around, this wouldn't happen. Under this scheme, everyone gets a "basic income", a paycheck from the government, for nothing. It's not a huge amount of money, but it's enough to live on, to keep you from being impoverished and living under a bridge and starving. Then, if you want to get a job, that's fine, you keep that money, in addition to your basic income. So you have every incentive to try to earn more money. If you get a job as a surgeon making $800k, you still get your $15k basic income even though it's a pittance in comparison to your real income.

      The scheme of losing your welfare benefits if you get a (crappy, low-paying) job is indeed pretty horrible, and is a disincentive to working, but it doesn't have to be that way.

      Now I have no idea if it's really economically possible for a modern industrial nation to employ this "basic income" scheme, but surely not having to have all the apparatus necessary to investigate welfare fraud would save a lot of money that could go to providing these incomes. We do have at least one example of a nation doing something like this: Norway provides a guaranteed income to all its citizens, paid from its oil and natural gas profits, and they're nearly at the top of the global standard-of-living indices.

    147. Re:Title is misleading by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      This is a good point: give me a bunch of workers (which I don't have to pay for) and I'll find all kinds of productive things for them to do.

      Giving care to the elderly would be useful, however elderly people usually don't have extra money to pay people to wait on them as servants, so it doesn't get done except for rich old people, since the rest of society doesn't want to pay much for that. Smaller classes for schoolchildren would be beneficial, but that would require paying teachers more, to make teaching a more attractive profession, and paying more for school buildings and such, however society (in the USA) doesn't want to invest in that stuff since that would mean higher taxes.

    148. Re:Title is misleading by pnutjam · · Score: 1

      Too much truth up there.

    149. Re:Title is misleading by pnutjam · · Score: 1

      Most people argue that these are entry level jobs for part-timers and high schoolers. They have their blinders firmly in place.

    150. Re:Title is misleading by pnutjam · · Score: 1

      If you are ringing a register at walmart, you are probably spot on. If you make north of minimum wage you should be able to pull ahead of the "freeloaders". You are just lazy and jealous.

    151. Re:Title is misleading by czth · · Score: 1

      I take my hat off to you, sir - no sarcasm intended. I know from your journals that you have a lot of haters modding you down; this post above is at -1 for no rational reason, and yet you keep posting insightful comments. Know that people do read them.

    152. Re:Title is misleading by bwcbwc · · Score: 1

      Automation is shifting repetitive, uncreative, brutish work to repetitive, uncreative, brutish machines, thus freeing humans to pursue nobler interests.

      No consolation to the workers who can't find new jobs, I know. But for the larger society, the benefits outweigh the costs.

      In every change some prosper, some lose. But the same happens in every status quo. We may as well choose technological progress.

      If we are compassionate, we can give the displaced workers opportunities to learn new skills.

      The problem here is that automated systems are now smart enough to replace (pulling a number out of a hat) about 20% of low-skilled and moderately-skilled labor. This percentage will only grow larger over time. In other words - in the future, you'll have to be either exceptionally smart, or exceptionally creative to be able to have a job. I predict Lake Wobegon (where all the children are above-average) will do fine, but the rest of the world is in for "interesting times".

      There will be a substantial part of the population that simply isn't smart or creative enough to hold a job in the face of automated competition. The only refuge for the average worker will be in situations where customers expect and require a human interface (for example in many service/hospitality industries). The tipping point will probably be around the time that most taxi services and some bus lines use driverless vehicles for at least some of their pickups. Look at IBM's developing model where the only US employees are sales force and executives (with corresponding admin support). The automated economy will be similar to that, but with less offshoring and more AI/automation.

      The only defense the working and middle classes have against this (other than exceptional skills and/or creativity that can't be automated) is ownership of automated systems for themselves. Which is pretty hard to achieve when you don't have the money to buy in. So: everybody ready for the Butlerian Jihad?*

      * - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butlerian_Jihad

      --
      We are the 198 proof..
    153. Re:Title is misleading by Culture20 · · Score: 1

      Cuts in military spending will be shifted towards military research (fighting robots). The soldiers may have a sense of duty to The People, but the robots will do only what they're programmed to do.

    154. Re:Title is misleading by scamper_22 · · Score: 1

      And if you increase the minimum wage, what happens to the cost of things?

      You buy groceries. The farm workers, grocery clerks, warehouse workers... make make minimum wage.

      Increase the minimum wage, you increase the cost of such things.

      Wages are just how much we trade among ourselves.

      Most of the western world has gotten away with increasing the minimum wage in a colonial fashion by shifting the cost of labor onto migrant or developing countries.

      Just ask yourself, what if the global minimum wage was $10/hour?

      What do you do with money? You use it to buy labor from other people.

    155. Re:Title is misleading by catprog · · Score: 1

      It sounds like you need to reduce the amount spent on them that they don't get and give it to them instead.

      --
      My Transformation Website
      Kindle Books http://www.catprog.org/rev
      Interactive CYOA http://www.catprog.org/st
    156. Re:Title is misleading by stymy · · Score: 1

      That $16 trillion is an incredibly deceiving figure. Technically, they did loan that much, but most of it was in ultra-short term loans, usually only overnight. Loaning $20 billion or so every day, receiving it the next, loaning it again and so on adds up to almost $16 trillion over 2 years, but in reality only $20 billion would have been loaned.

    157. Re:Title is misleading by Caetel · · Score: 1

      Because as humans, we tend to hold ourselves above inanimate objects that wouldn't exist if it were not for us creating them.

      Candlesticks wouldn't exist if it weren't for a supplier making them, whereas if every company signs an exclusive contract with a union, you're forcing people to join a union to get work.

    158. Re:Title is misleading by OeLeWaPpErKe · · Score: 1

      Well Japan's population is 128 million. Labor force in Japan is 66 million according to CIA world factbook. That would make "labor participation", the only really meaningful metric of employment in my opinion, just over 50%.

      For comparison, US is 313 million population, 153.6 million labor force, slightly worse than Japan, ever so slightly below 50%, but close enough to make any difference meaningless.

      So in America and Japan, every working person supports 1 non-working person on average.

      Sweden, by contrast, has 9 million population and 5 million labor force, or a lot better than the US (meaning the various US social security systems support more people per capita than Sweden's. Which confirms what I've heard from actual Swedes, btw, that actually getting social support in Sweden is hard).

      So every working swede only supports 0.8 non-working Swedes.

      One thing I'd like to see is how that picture would change if you take out the public sector.

    159. Re:Title is misleading by AlphaWolf_HK · · Score: 1

      Actually by some standards, midwestern American English more closely resembles British English of yore. We still fully enunciate our vowels and dipthongs in nearly all words, and we are still rhotic. The British today often truncate words as well, like saying "ceme-tree" instead of cemetary, and often exclude the t from many words, like saying wa'er instead of water.

      It varies by region of course (both in the US and in England) but this holds true for the majority of speakers in the respective countries. (Or at least, the speakers that are most likely to get hired in upper scale jobs and call centers. Speak of call centers, eastern call centers prefer to emulate American midwestern over all other accents, including British, even when they service England.)

      --
      Careful with names containing L slashdot.org/~AiphaWolf_HK slashdot.org/~AlphaWoif_HK slashdot.org/~AiphaWoif_HK
    160. Re:Title is misleading by philip.paradis · · Score: 1

      Attempting to justify the continued existence of unions by pointing to past efforts that resulted in the creation of an entirely separate (and useful) entity is a logical fallacy. Prior good work alone doesn't support something existed in perpetuity, unless you're also of the opinion that going to work for a single day should result in continued pay for a year whether you show up or not. You may well have other justifications to present, but this one doesn't work. No pun intended.

      --
      Write failed: Broken pipe
    161. Re:Title is misleading by MrL0G1C · · Score: 1

      Just ask yourself, what if the global minimum wage was $10/hour?

      Americans jobs would become securer, American companies would stop off-shoring.

      I've worked at a company and seen what many hundreds of companies spend on wages relative to their turnover and profit, often wages is a small percentage of turnover.

      Increasing wages a lot does not automatically lead to large increases in prices.

      Funny that you should mention $10/hour because the minimum wage in the UK is currently $10.00/hour exactly (GBP6.19per) this is not causing the economy problems.

      "Most of the western world has gotten away with increasing the minimum wage in a colonial fashion by shifting the cost of labor onto migrant or developing countries."

      You buy a pair of Nike shoes, they're not cheap, the labourer in the 3rd world country could be paid 10x as much and it'd barely effect the cost of the shoe.

      Other goods are mainly manufactured in factories by machines and robots anyway.

      --
      Waterfox - a Firefox fork with legacy extension support, security updates and better privacy by default.
    162. Re:Title is misleading by ArhcAngel · · Score: 1
      Where to begin...

      they certainly can have their problems...such a gross misstatement that I cant' imagine you know the actual history of the labor movement.

      Everyone wants their hero to be pure. This is just human nature. I don't know what unions you have been a part of and I don't need to. I made no blanket statement concerning all unions. Anyone who discounts the good unions do is a fool. But as with most good things too much of a good thing can be as bad as the disease or problem it addresses. There is nothing keeping the very same type of person taking advantage of you as a corporate executive deciding the grass is greener as the head of a union.

      Unions aren't beating and murdering people.

      There is more than enough evidence out there to refute this statement. Hell they just spent the last week terrorizing anybody who supported the Michigan legislation.

      --
      "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." - K
    163. Re:Title is misleading by Richard+Dick+Head · · Score: 1

      Hah, I think you worry too much. We're experiencing another shift from an economic landscape of haves and have nots to a landscape of cans and cannots, just like what happened during and after the Great Depression. Except with Bernanke's finesse, it's looking like it'll be a little easier this time. It's still rough to go through, but it will wring wealth from the useless and give it to the useful. Otherwise, if automation got that bad we could always move to where the work is. Even if it means leaving everything behind and stowing yourself away on a cargo ship bound for Asia.

      If the world continues to plunge, we're basically heading back to what it was like in England in Victorian times, or what India was like in recent times. Since the powers-that-be are adamant about hiding inflation, the entitlement systems that calculate disbursement adjustments from inflation numbers will deflate in real terms and eventually offer no meaningful help, and the minimum wage will deflate in real terms to the point where we'll start seeing a sharp increase in middle class household hiring. Butlers, servants, personal drivers, and other marginal labor that will get 3 hots and a cot, and little else, but you can survive.

      I'll move if I have to, but if I'm locked in and forced to eat shit, so be it. I mean I'm sure I could hop on a flight to Bangalore or Hyderabad and find a job in a week, and deal with the culture shock as it comes.

      The human delight in prestige and power over his fellow man will make sure no one seeking employment in earnest goes unemployed for long.

      But I believe the structural unemployment we're seeing is in a shift in skilled vs unskilled labor. Much of the "Middle Class" getting hurt right now are no more than unskilled labor that made it into higher income by short-term growth driven demand (like most but not all of the A+ certified scabs from the late 90's who are now back to flipping burgers). No one I know who is actually good at what they do is hurting right now.

      The upcoming big inflationary event people are worried about will strip wealth from the wealthy and the unskilled poor, and redistribute it to the skilled middle classes (for an example compare the economic landscape of the 1880's to 1920's vs 1940's to 70's). The Great Depression, while difficult, actually was a good thing in the end.

      That is why I don't understand why so many IT people are so big into socialism. That ideology ends up benefiting most the drooling morons who beat us up in high school, and the super-rich bastards. People who are already rich do not pay taxes on income, and high taxes keep people from becoming rich, so those who need investment capital, budding businesses, can only access it from a few already-rich players in the market (and since supply is low, the rich get even MORE rich than in a strictly capitalist system). That is why so many movie stars and super-rich folks aren't scared of the idea, and that is why old-money and socialism is the craze in Europe.

      I mean, get on YouTube and watch videos of people gathering after a big layoff, whether it is IT people, or union people, or whatever. It'll give you a confidence boost. You'll notice a bunch of birds of the same feather: 1. They're all disgustingly obese. 2. They generally just sit there and wait for some idiot to speak, never taking the lead, not engaged at all. 3. They look tired and dopey. 4. If they do talk on camera, they make it pretty apparent that they don't give a shit about the work, its all about the money and their obligations, never that they loved/were passionate about what they did and detailing what they're doing to get back in the game.

      Anyway, those people and their idiot children are going to try to claw their way back in by collecting useless degrees and/or collecting degrees they don't have the brainpower for, and trying to greaseball their way into gigs, wasting enormous amounts of HR time (wasn't there a Slashdot article recently about this?), and inconveniencing McDonalds b

    164. Re:Title is misleading by ultranova · · Score: 1

      That's never enough though... now they need cell phones and laundry service and food/care for their pets and transportation and better living conditions. (Did I mention that despite the government assistance, they don't take care of themselves or their kids, so now there are more health care costs, etc.?)

      Yeah, the damn freeloaders should simply go find a place within walking distance which hires a sick guy who turns up unnannounced in dirty clothes.

      By the time you pay for health insurance and everything else that puts you on the same level as a typical freeloader, you are left with little money to spend as you want.

      That your quality of life is at the level of someone who needs to beg for clean clothes is unfortunate. But the fault lies with the powerful, not the weak. And partly yourself, for blaming the easy victim rather than the real, but powerful, culprit.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    165. Re:Title is misleading by Trepidity · · Score: 1

      That's just the free market at work: they can get a different carrier than UPS if they don't like the service UPS is giving them. And if they're suffering problems from vandalism, they should hire better security.

    166. Re:Title is misleading by MrBigInThePants · · Score: 1

      .

      (I agree comrade)

      But seriously, I do. You are so painfully, incredible and obviously correct.
      Last 20 years, roughly:

      Productivity increase: 70+%
      Wealth increase: a lot
      Median wages after inflation: stagnant.

      You cannot argue with the core numbers.

    167. Re:Title is misleading by WorBlux · · Score: 1

      You confuse inflation and it's effects . Inflation consists and only consists of and increase in either money of money substitutes. Other things being equal this increases the demand for cash holdings the price of many goods and services. What you point out is just one of the many way that other things may have changed. to partially offset these effects.

    168. Re:Title is misleading by WorBlux · · Score: 1

      "That argument doesn't serve the consumers who pay the price for the products at all. In fact, It hurts the consumer when other people's wages are reduced."

      You ignore the unseen and the mechanics of change. Allowing wages in certain sectors send out price signals that make people consider what other avenues of endeavor may be more productive than their current one. This allows for capital, labor and natural resources to be allocated to satisfy more urgently felt needs of consumers.

      Now don't get me wrong I believe the corporate structure is an abuse as it is a fiction designed to be rid of the consequence of facts. CEO's get absolutely absurd compensation packages because the stock market is so over-packed with money seeking shelter from taxed through 401k accounts and the like. In addition vast laws and regulations favor inbuments over new competitors. (Most regulatory law is written by a group within the industry to be regulated). Unions can be a balance against this power in some cases, but it would be uniformly more beneficial just to be rid of the special privileged of large corporations so that the mobility of and competition for labor can act to drive up wage rates.

    169. Re:Title is misleading by crutchy · · Score: 1

      I'm from Australia, and as much as I'm taxed fairly highly, I'm actually glad that high incomes get slugged 50%... it means our national debt isn't a national joke

    170. Re:Title is misleading by crutchy · · Score: 1

      except "irresponsible black" people can't afford homes in the first place, so they weren't the subject of my previous post

    171. Re:Title is misleading by drsmithy · · Score: 1

      Just for your reference Australia is also one of the lowest taxing countries in the OECD. Overall tax burden is only a bit higher than the USA.

    172. Re:Title is misleading by FirephoxRising · · Score: 1

      " assumes the profits aren't hidden or shifted to another country first" But that's what they do, and they have teams of lawyers and accountants to hide the money, the tax wont be paid, maybe the loopholes will be closed when it happens enough, or more "austerity" will be required instead....

    173. Re:Title is misleading by FirephoxRising · · Score: 1

      No, and I mean NO! because central wealth distribution has been shown time and again to disincentivise people from actually doing something useful with their lives. If you earn enough from benefits, and your benefits reduce if you work/produce value, then why do anything useful? And Benefit Dependency is a really nasty pernicious place to be in. Citation? As such, it's pretty much essential that we focus on figuring out how best to help people learn and reach their potential.

    174. Re:Title is misleading by flyneye · · Score: 1

      If I own a factory and I pay what is fair for the area I live in, then there aren't going to be any extras. I must be competitive with my product for these people to keep their jobs and for me to show a profit. If I have to start paying more because my workers decide they will hold production hostage till I pay them more, then I will have to let some go in order to pay more and work them harder OR fire the lot of conspirators, shut down for reorganization and re-open with new workers to train. Unions are a Lose,lose,lose for everyone except those who professionally organize and lie. They must be good at it too, but then it doesn't take much to get people to agree they want more. Unions just lost this city a couple major factories and the morons still haven't learned their lessons. You could be one of them, probably will be. Dunno what you're gonna do, when no one around can afford to get their shoes shined , boy....

      --
      *Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
    175. Re:Title is misleading by flyneye · · Score: 1

      You assume that every business that starts, figures in backstabbing assholes to come along and ruin profits and jobs for everyone. Well, they don't. Some businesses run along fine without unions and pay fair wages. Then some union comes to town and organizes some similar businesses. Soon there are inequities in local pay scales and unrest...until, that fateful day, when the union shop pulls up roots and leaves town for cheaper labor. Just like it's been happening here. Yeah we lost 2 big factories that employed a large chunk of this city. Now if they don't move away, they scramble for the McDonalds positions and newspaper routes or become some of the local homeless.
      No one needs unions. Don't support them. Don't work union shops.( I have flat walked out of interviews upon finding unions have infiltrated, because there is NO security to those jobs in spite of the lies offered.) Don't take the ability to work and stablized local economy away from your friends and neighbors. Don't even hang out with union assholes and ridicule the ones you do see. This is starting to work out pretty well here now and union trash keep to themselves.

      --
      *Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
    176. Re:Title is misleading by LunaticTippy · · Score: 1

      IQ tests are designed to have a mean of 100 and a standard deviation of 15. They have to reformulate them every so often to rebalance to this standard. For the last hundred years or so raw IQ scores have been increasing by about 3 points per decade, a phenomenon called the Flynn effect

      There are various theories about why this happens, such as nutrition, and there is some evidence that the trend is weakening, but your gut instinct about this is not accurate.

      --
      Man, you really need that seminar!
    177. Re:Title is misleading by Stuarticus · · Score: 1

      You seem to forget that Henry Ford pioneered the living wage. Something you seem keen to do away with by the sound of you rant.

      --
      If you think someone isn't free to have a different definition of "freedom" you may be a tyrant.
    178. Re:Title is misleading by bogjobber · · Score: 1

      Really? Who was "terrorized" last week? Steven Crowder got punched in the face after taunting union protesters, but he was being intentionally confrontational towards them and those people were arrested by the police and denounced by the unions. That's hardly terrorism.

      And there actually is something stopping a union lead from taking advantage of his constituents. Unions are democratic. And while they are far from perfect institutions, like I said, to claim that unions are just as bad as corporations with regard to the working man, that the petty politics and corruption that exist in the major unions are even in the same realm as that tactics corporations have used against workers for the better part of two centuries, is patently outrageous.

    179. Re:Title is misleading by flyneye · · Score: 1

      I make living wage without unions as do many Many MANY others. You're ripping us off and we see how. You live in a state of denial.
      I'll be happy to see the unions go and watch you have to deal with it. You got more excuses than a persecuted minority on his way to incarceration.
      No one forgot about Ford, whom I mentioned earlier, except you. Did I say unions were made for living wage? No, I said they were made for poor conditions, later they got into the extortion business. Unions existed before Hoffa and now they are done as Hoffa. Get over it.

      --
      *Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
    180. Re:Title is misleading by ArhcAngel · · Score: 1

      I wasn't even talking about Crowder. I even agree that unions are necessary in many instances. You are proving my point about having blinders on when it comes to something you believe in. For just one example since you seem incapable of using Google (or Bing or DuckDuckGo) here is a raw feed of them tearing down a tent with people inside. I cannot abide people who throw around the word tolerance and then show none. It is apparent you do not wish to discuss this but to simply tell me I am wrong. You cite examples of violence and then justify them.

      --
      "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." - K
    181. Re:Title is misleading by ArhcAngel · · Score: 1

      Heard of the AMA and the BMA - They also function as Unions

      Do they?

      --
      "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." - K
    182. Re:Title is misleading by mjwalshe · · Score: 1

      yep you would not believe the deal our GP's got last time the contract was renegotiated.

  2. The rich, the robots, the rest of us by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Who will be left with any real income to buy all this stuff?

    1. Re:The rich, the robots, the rest of us by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You've hit on the real heart of the matter here. We have way, way too many people on this little blue marble. Back in the days of manual labor and agriculture, we needed people - the more, the better. With everything mechanized and automated, there is no need for this many people. In fact, the extra people are nothing but unproductive dead weight, a net negative rather than a positive. The free market deals with this by diminishing their value, lowering their income, in an attempt to excise the cancer. Due to humanitarian reasons, we cannot just send them to death camps, but the market is doing the best it can. At some point, after peak automation, we will not need a population of the size we have. Some would argue that there need be no population at all - a Skynet scenario, I guess. I think that's taking things too far, but a much smaller global population of strictly scientist and engineers is a necessity and a logical conclusion to the technological curve. At that point, the idea of money can go away, and the idea of working for the continuation and betterment of lifestyle and the elevation of society and culture (the 'Star Trek' model) can take over.

    2. Re:The rich, the robots, the rest of us by Hatta · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "When the people shall have nothing more to eat, they will eat the rich."
      --JJ Rousseau

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    3. Re:The rich, the robots, the rest of us by Opportunist · · Score: 2

      Who gets to choose? The rich are going to survive? While we "grunts" get to perish?

      I foresee a problem. Who's going to do the working?

      Star Trek is a cute fantasy, but that's pretty much it. Human is, by default, lazy and will, given the chance, waste his life in front of daytime TV. There might be a few who actually want to "better" things, but they are few and far between. The rest just want to get powerful (and thus rich) to enjoy life better.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    4. Re:The rich, the robots, the rest of us by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Borrowing from Cracked's Afterhours segment, Star Trek isn't about betterment of the population, but of finding something to be interested in. They are scouring the universe for entertainment.

    5. Re:The rich, the robots, the rest of us by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      So, essentially, space ships are the TVs of the future?

      Another illusion going *pop*

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    6. Re:The rich, the robots, the rest of us by pellik · · Score: 1

      A single engineer designing automation systems makes obsolete the jobs of many, many workers. The automation industry will only work by removing far more jobs than it creates. A job that goes elsewhere is still a job, it's just somewhere else.
      Ultimately this will create effects similar to a recession, except that the economy will not be in recession and economic growth will not create more jobs.

    7. Re:The rich, the robots, the rest of us by pellik · · Score: 2

      It's not just about the tools (bombs), we are looking at a future where the rich have genetic and cybernetic enhancement. It's no longer just going to be a financial difference between classes.

    8. Re:The rich, the robots, the rest of us by Sir_Eptishous · · Score: 1

      Eric Schmidt

      --
      We play the game with the bravery of being out of range
    9. Re:The rich, the robots, the rest of us by geoskd · · Score: 1

      Borrowing from Cracked's Afterhours segment, Star Trek isn't about betterment of the population, but of finding something to be interested in. They are scouring the universe for entertainment.

      That is appropriate on so many levels its disturbing. Every time I read that sentence again, I find another way to interpret it that is even more enlightening than the last...

      -=Geoskd

      --
      I wish I had a good sig, but all the good ones are copyrighted
    10. Re:The rich, the robots, the rest of us by pellik · · Score: 1

      Deflation.
      When nobody can afford goods which are growing exponentially cheaper to produce we should start to see massive gains in purchasing power for consumers. Furthermore, one great way to combat deflation is by printing money, so a welfare state makes sense.

      My concern, however, is that this deflation will affect industry asymmetrically, where some components and such will be unaffordably expensive. If we don't have a smart government to steer us through such a transition we will have to do a lot of suffering before things start to operate smoothly again.

    11. Re:The rich, the robots, the rest of us by KingMotley · · Score: 2

      Human is, by default, lazy and will, given the chance, waste his life in front of daytime TV.

      Some humans are lazy and will, given the chance, waste his life in front of daytime TV.

      Fixed that for you.

      Not all of us are. Some of us found what we enjoy, and do it even when not being paid for it. Of course, I would prefer that I had enough funds to do exactly what I want, when I want, but I can guarantee you that I would NOT be sitting in front of the TV.

    12. Re:The rich, the robots, the rest of us by Rockoon · · Score: 1

      Who gets to choose? The rich are going to survive? While we "grunts" get to perish?

      What makes you think that when push comes to shove, that the handful of ultra rich folks will be able to defend themselves against the hoards?

      I seriously think that 9 out of 10 of you have been defeated already, but not because you are at all incapable, but merely because you think that you are incapable. The power of negative thinking.

      The grass always looks greener on the other side, but its a fucking illusion. Don't base your outlook on a god damned illusion. We face problems. So did our parents. So did their parents.

      We live epically great lives in our cushy western societies, but many dont even know that. They think negatively about it all while discussing the pros and cons of Android vs iOS for godsakes. These things would have been military secrets 25 years ago.. Its a fucking $30 million dollar super-computer, in your fucking hand.

      People think that things suck, but in actuality its the way that they are thinking that sucks.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    13. Re:The rich, the robots, the rest of us by tftp · · Score: 1

      Who gets to choose? The rich are going to survive? While we "grunts" get to perish?

      In this scheme it will be you who will do the choosing, just by being smart enough to be wanted in the new society.

      The transition from captalism to post-capitalism (perhaps communism) is not clear yet. But it will happen when a rich owner of a robotic factory finds out that nobody can buy his product because he employs only robots. Humans are not necessary in this society, except those that develop new robots.

      There is a reason why in Star Trek you don't see too many scenes on planets where people do some work. In the original Star Trek some scenes in colonies were just ridiculous, with about 50 colonists just milling around in a public square. All the real work that you ever see in ST is the research done by the crew, and an occasional war.

      Right now the society *already* has lots of people who are not needed. Younger ones join street gangs, perpetuating the classical pastime of humans - to kill each other for fun and goodies. Older ones stay at home and wait for the death to come. If this continues, the society will split into the people of arcologies (Todos Santos, for example) and the people of ghettos, with the permanent war between the two. The ghettos will win because they are more numerous; then the new Dark Ages begin.

    14. Re:The rich, the robots, the rest of us by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Smart isn't really a trait wanted in a society. Trust me. It mostly works against you since most superiors fear you for you could easily replace them at some point in the future. They prefer to hire underlings who are at best as smart as they are so they can keep their comfy chair.

      As for the unneeded, "surplus", people: We will have to take care of them. One way or another. Because one thing is certain, they won't just accept their "fate". There is of course many possible scenarios how to do that.

      1. Round them up and shoot them. Not REALLY a good option, people who are about to get killed generally don't like that idea and might consider fighting back and trying to kill you as a viable option.

      2. Feed and shelter them. Yeah. Sure.

      3. Keep them busy with gang wars. Ensure that both sides have roughly equal firepower and accept the occasional collateral damage as a sad but necessary side effect. And to keep (other) people from coming to your door and asking you whether you're completely bonkers, keep up a front of claiming that you're trying your best to fight those criminals. Use this "weapon" every time one side is dangerously close to getting an upper hand, not only will it keep the balance of power, it will also convince the rest that you're "doing something".

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    15. Re:The rich, the robots, the rest of us by Ian+Alexander · · Score: 1

      Robots are notoriously bad consumers. Either way, capitalism is on the way out for something else. The question is -- who is going to benefit from the new state of affairs?

    16. Re:The rich, the robots, the rest of us by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

      The rich also depends on a society to prop up their heavy weighted needs and desires. It's like an ecosystem and food chain. When the base of civilization collapses, the rich either die off or cannibalize each other until the entire system breakdown into survival of the fittest. And I will guarantee you that most Hollywood, and Wallstreet types are low on the "fitness" scale.

      The higher you climb, the harder you fall.

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    17. Re:The rich, the robots, the rest of us by Khashishi · · Score: 1

      It will be bloody, but I don't think the rich will win in an all out revolution. The rich will be put to the guillotine, the rebel generals will become the new rich (but not as rich as the old rich), and the cycle of wealth accumulation will repeat.

    18. Re:The rich, the robots, the rest of us by Eunuchswear · · Score: 1

      Not if the rich have drones dropping bombs on you

      Skynet was a cover story.

      --
      Watch this Heartland Institute video
    19. Re:The rich, the robots, the rest of us by SwedishPenguin · · Score: 1

      I neither want to waste my life in front of daytime TV nor do I have any desire to become "powerful" or rich. Your view of humanity is excessively pessimistic, most people do want to contribute something to society. There have been experiments with a basic income which does indicate that the vast majority still work despite having enough to survive and watch daytime TV if they so wish. The few who do not *want* to contribute something most likely aren't going to do a very good job so forcing them to work while those who do want to work have to stay at home does not seem very logical from a productivity standpoint.

      The viewpoint that automation would negate the need for unions also doesn't make any sense. Why would automation make employers want to pay their employees more than the absolute minimum they can get away with? Unions are the reason we in Europe have the working conditions we do have, without them fighting for workers rights, 8 hour days and 5 week vacations would have never been realized as there would have been no counterpoint to the power of the very wealthy whose interests do not coincide with the average worker. The same is true in the future regardless of whether automation puts large parts of the population out of work, those who do work still need a counterweight to the capitalists who still do not have their interests at heart, but their own.

  3. Union perspective by Livius · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The fact that unions think they are there to protect jobs, rather than do them, is the root of their problems.

    1. Re:Union perspective by Livius · · Score: 3, Insightful

      And it does not help that they focus all their attention on workplaces that are easy to unionize, and not on occupations that are genuinely underpaid or otherwise exploited.

    2. Re:Union perspective by CodeReign · · Score: 2

      Eloquently put. I agree with unions that protect people from harassment and collectively bargaining for better wages however there are unions that actively block useless people from being dismissed.

    3. Re:Union perspective by Trepidity · · Score: 2

      That's a bit of an inherent feature, isn't it? Unions only exist in workplaces where a union is successfully set up, therefore they are more likely to exist at workplaces where setting them up is easier to do.

      Fairly U.S.-specific as well. In Scandinavia, most workers are covered by a union, because the legal environment for how they get set up is much different.

    4. Re:Union perspective by Kenja · · Score: 5, Insightful

      That's frankly OK with me in the bigger picture. It is better to have two parties fighting over power (unions vs corporations) rather then having one party (corporations) running unchecked.

      --

      "Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
    5. Re:Union perspective by peragrin · · Score: 2, Informative

      while I agree with you. the problem of having people in a union who can't ever be fired for not doing any work makes the concept of a union look bad.

      There are teachers, truck drivers, etc who should be fired because they are just plain worthless at their jobs. But can't be because the union protects them. Okay if managment wants to lay off 200 people to give themselves a bonus this year (and lots of companies do something similar) then great that is what a union is there for. If bob shows up late leaves early and never does his job correctly and can't be fired because the union is protecting him that is to far the other way. I know guys who work hard put in the extra effort then join a union and work half as hard to get paid more. And they brag about how much less they have to do now they are in the union.

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    6. Re:Union perspective by peppepz · · Score: 1
      That's their job and function. Have you ever heard a lawyer ask a judge to declare his defendant guilty, because he feels he deserves it? Would you pay for such a lawyer?

      Unions are the defenders of one side, and only of that side. Such defense is needed because without unions, the weak part (the workers) gets abused, in the ways we witnessed in Western countries during the industrial revolution, which are exactly the same we see in non-Western countries today: child labour, miserable wages, a discrete chance of dying on the work place.

    7. Re:Union perspective by superdave80 · · Score: 1

      Okay if managment wants to lay off 200 people to give themselves a bonus this year (and lots of companies do something similar) then great that is what a union is there for.

      If management wants to make that decision, why should they unions get to veto it? If management wants to make a shortsighted decision, that's their prerogative.

    8. Re:Union perspective by dinodriver · · Score: 1

      The pension funds were quite healthy until the financial industry screwed everything up, extracting their fees and profits from the investments before they tanked them of course.

    9. Re:Union perspective by slew · · Score: 1

      The pension funds were quite healthy until the financial industry screwed everything up, extracting their fees and profits from the investments before they tanked them of course.

      Actually, the pension funds were quite fictional until the financial industry screwed everything up, which exposed that fact.

      Most pension funds are based on the fact that the enterprises running them are on-going, growing concerns. If/when they start shrinking, incoming contributions cannot finance accumulating pension liabiities w/o unrealistic investment return rates (which steered some pension investments into higher risk categories). So a bet on a pension is really just a bet on the underwriters continuing existence. Although this risk is mitigated somewhat by pension insurance (which is a pooling of risk), as many retired folks covered by pension plans that went into receivership, the net result of covered risk is pennies on the dollar.

    10. Re:Union perspective by Livius · · Score: 1

      It turns out that having two quasi-monopolies is twice as bad as having one.

    11. Re:Union perspective by im_thatoneguy · · Score: 2

      I think working less hours and getting paid more should be all of our goal. I'm not a member of a union but I'm quite thrilled with how successful I've been at that balance over the years.

      The fact of the matter is that one employee today is doing twice as much as an employee 50 years ago but their wages don't reflect that.

      Our goal should have been to work ourselves all into unemployment. We should be working at most 30 hour weeks on average and enjoying the fruits of our combined cultural accomplishment of becoming more and more efficient. Instead what has happened is the rich have taken it (the owners of Wal Mart own as much as 40% of the rest of the population) and we're working just as hard as ever for the same amount of money while creating significantly more wealth.

      If you make a huge efficiency gain you should be able to reap the rewards by working less hours. Instead we're working more hours.

      Automation offers the same promise: do the same amount of work but in half the time. In theory that means we should all be able to cut out after lunch and enjoy ourselves in the afternoon to pursue family and hobby/entrepreneurship. Instead the productivity gains get pocketed by the investors and everyone keeps working just as long. One of the great hoodwinks of this century when we look back will be the fact that somehow we were persuaded to happily slave away trashing our fellow oarsmen about being "lazy" while other profited from our productivity and efficiency.

    12. Re:Union perspective by mjwalshe · · Score: 1

      Bollocks if your grossly abusing the system all the Union does is make sure that you get fired correctly and that employers don't misbehave eg beat confessions out of people.

    13. Re:Union perspective by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      Actually, the pension funds were quite fictional until the financial industry screwed everything up, which exposed that fact.

      Actually, that's totally ignoring the fact that right wing politicians decided to make "deferred payments" on pensions so they could pass tax cuts for the rich. Sort of like how Republicans spent 30 years slashing taxes for corporations and hedge funders, and use the resulting Who Could Have Predicted deficit problems to demand cuts to food stamps and Medicare.

      But that's okay, pensions are only contractual obligations for working stiffs, so they don't count. It's the workers own damned fault for not having landed jobs at a bank or AIG.

    14. Re:Union perspective by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      while I agree with you. the problem of having people in a union who can't ever be fired for not doing any work makes the concept of a union look bad.

      Drivel. There's nothing about unions that prevent workers from being fired with cause. Nothing.

      Besides, have you thought about your storyline for two seconds? If some union worker isn't doing his job, that means that his fellow union members have to pick up his slack. What makes you think they would have any more patience than you would for the exact same behavior at a non-unionized company?

      Speaking of, if you've worked at any non-unionized company of any size for any length of time, you've seen your share of people "not pulling their weight" or getting away with behavior that would have gotten your ass shitcanned in a hot minute. Where were your anti-union canards then?

    15. Re:Union perspective by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      And it does not help that they focus all their attention on workplaces that are easy to unionize, and not on occupations that are genuinely underpaid or otherwise exploited.

      So how would you unionize a company like Wal-Mart when company bosses are willing to shut down a store before a union could be recognized?

    16. Re:Union perspective by stymy · · Score: 1

      That's only a problem with bad unions. Good ones make sure that union members are skilled and hardworking, so that they don't make everyone in the union look bad. Those issues are not really a problem in other countries, it seems to be a much bigger problem in the US.

  4. Unions protect jobs just fine by Shivetya · · Score: 3, Insightful

    they just stopped worry about protecting workers. The real power of unions is all in government employee unions who hold an undue amount of influence over those who set their pay. Even FDR knew the pitfalls of that.

    What is going to end unions is the unrepentant greed amongst the public employee unions who expect taxpayers to shut up and put up. Well a few states are well on their way that a few cities have gone, bankrupting or using financial crisis to void ridiculous promises and payouts.

    Some of the worse retirement payouts and age at which they can retire is just silly to the point of sickening.

    --
    * Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
    1. Re:Unions protect jobs just fine by Frosty+Piss · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The real power of unions is all in government employee unions who hold an undue amount of influence over those who set their pay.

      You assume that most Fedeal workers are well paid and still have a great retirement plan. This is not the case.

      Take a look at the GS wage charts, and what a government retirement is today (no more than a 401k).

      It's not as "sweet" as you think.

      --
      If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
    2. Re:Unions protect jobs just fine by Phrogman · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Yep get rid of all the unions and we can go back to the good old days of companies hiring "Strike-Breakers" to beat people to death because they don't want to work for slave labor wages. That'll be fun. /sarcasm off

      Unions served to get some essential rights for workers from the rich industrial barons who didn't give a fuck about those who slaved for them. For a while they served very well.

      Now the rich and powerful are destroying the unions in the name of increased profits and will again fuck their employees. Its an Employers world right now, and they get to make the rules - unless you are in high demand in a few rare industries, government or management. The loss of union power and collective bargaining will NOT be good for North America. I guess this is what they mean by "trickle down economics" eh?

      --
      "The first time I got drunk, I got married. The second time I bought a chimpanzee, after that I stayed sober" Arian Seid
    3. Re:Unions protect jobs just fine by operagost · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Let me ask you: do you really think that companies would get away with beating their workers if unions were to disappear? If not, why bring it up?

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    4. Re:Unions protect jobs just fine by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Unions served to get some essential rights for workers

      Horses and buggies served to provide essential transportation. The question is not whether unions were once beneficial, but rather whether they are beneficial today.

    5. Re:Unions protect jobs just fine by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      You should join a union.

    6. Re:Unions protect jobs just fine by pixelpusher220 · · Score: 1

      They did for decades, why not again? Sure there's more media coverage these days, but when you're hiring someone to pretend to be someone else while doing your dirty work, you've already abstracted the 'coverage' aspect out.

      --
      People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people :-D
    7. Re:Unions protect jobs just fine by pixelpusher220 · · Score: 1

      The problem is when a system is so successful that the beneficiaries no longer see the downsides that they get lax about making sure the system isn't watered down.

      Are some unions impractical and obstructionist? Sure. Same goes for corporations. Why aren't we calling for the abolishment of corporations too?

      --
      People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people :-D
    8. Re:Unions protect jobs just fine by ExploHD · · Score: 1

      Except that public employee workers are generally paid less than their counterparts in other industries and the pension system has been paid into for every year of their work anyways. The problem stems from from three things:
      1. Public employees being laid off, therefore reducing the pool paid into the pension system.
      2. Retroactive changes to the pension payouts that had the optimism of a 90's internet IPO
      3. "Fraud" by high level public employees, who can get away with it because of their connections in city hall and poorly written union contracts. Really no different than corporations moving money to the Cayman Island's to avoid paying taxes, it's perfectly legal but what has been the cost to this country? Or how about upper management in corporations getting paid in stock, which when sold, would be taxed as capital gains(15% in the USA)? Still perfectly legal, but now they're paying less as a percentage of their income than you are in taxes.

    9. Re:Unions protect jobs just fine by owski · · Score: 1

      Yep get rid of all the unions and we can go back to the good old days of companies hiring "Strike-Breakers" to beat people to death because they don't want to work for slave labor wages. That'll be fun.

      I don't understand, what can unions do to prevent this above current laws and law enforcement? Are you really suggesting that if unions went away companies would start beating their employees to death for going on strike? I understand that it has happened in the past and that unions were involved in bringing public and law enforcement attention to the issue, but I can't envision a scenario where this would return solely if unions ceased to exist. The fact that unions cover such a small portion of the workforce would seem to indicate that the continued existence of unions isn't necessary to prevent employer on employee violence.

    10. Re:Unions protect jobs just fine by Frosty+Piss · · Score: 1

      You should join a union.

      I'm a member of the American Federation of Government Employees (AFGE / AFL-CIO), 1501 (McChord Air Force Base).

      --
      If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
    11. Re:Unions protect jobs just fine by Charliemopps · · Score: 1

      Ah yes, the faulty "Union workers don't make that much" argument. Unions protect long standing members. I've been a member of several trade unions and the story is always the same. If you are "new" member (less than 5 to 10 years in) the union could give a shit less about you. Unions are all about seniority and protect long standing members. The autoworkers union doesn't care about the food workers union, so if you move from one to the other they don't care what happens to you. So the unions setup deals with the employers where newhires don't get paid all that much, but once you've been on the job for a while all the benefits start kicking in. Who are the union leaders? The senior employees. So what's happening is the Union leaders are bought off by the employer at the expense of the new hire. But in the past twenty years or so, these union leaders have left people that were only in the unions for a short period of time with a bad taste in their mouth. What good was that union anyway? And the employers have exploited this and their past agreements by getting rid of as many "Senior" union people as possible and replacing them with new hires who are not so high up on the unions priority lists.

      Then we get to the government employee unions. Teachers in particular. They get paid based on education. That's fucking stupid. They absolutely refuse to accept raises based on performance. The Washington DC school system even offered to give bonuses, on top of, not instead of, education based raises to those that performed better. We're talking FREE extra money... and the union walked out. No way. Why? Because they don't want to set a president. If there were merit based incentives in a single school, it would clearly work... and spread across the country. God forbid teachers that have built their career on getting multiple doctorates in English so they can teach 16yr olds how to read Charles dickens be expected to actually help those students become better readers rather than appreciate what they consider great literature. But those same teachers have been there the longest and are the highest up in the food chain for the union. At the expense of all the other teacher... even the children... they WILL get paid irrelevant of their success rate.

    12. Re:Unions protect jobs just fine by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 1

      Unions served to get some essential rights for workers

      Horses and buggies served to provide essential transportation. The question is not whether unions were once beneficial, but rather whether they are beneficial today.

      Horses and buggies were replaced by something that did the same job better. What, exactly, is there which bears the same relationship to unions that automobiles do to horses and buggies?

      --
      The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
    13. Re:Unions protect jobs just fine by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 1

      Let me ask you: do you really think that companies would get away with beating their workers if unions were to disappear?

      Yes. And if you don't think that, then you need to read some history.

      --
      The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
    14. Re:Unions protect jobs just fine by dpidcoe · · Score: 1

      From what I've seen, it's not the rank and file workers who benefit, it's the higher up people who make six figure salaries for holding a fancy title for a pointless internal bureaucracy, then retire at age 55 while continuing to pull a pension equal to 95% of their salary. For every one of those people you could hire at least 4 of the rank and file workers at a decent wage and sane retirement plan.

      The only trick for the management is to keep enough people at a crappy wage. That way the average stays down and they can wave it around as "proof" that salaries and over the top pensions aren't an issue.

    15. Re:Unions protect jobs just fine by tftp · · Score: 1

      They did for decades, why not again?

      Because there are five hungry lawyers protecting every striking worker, in hope that the business owner just looks wrong at the poor guy.

    16. Re:Unions protect jobs just fine by theArtificial · · Score: 1

      Yes. And if you don't think that, then you need to read some history.

      If you're beaten physically there are laws to deal with that and there are plenty of lawyers out there. Frankly, if someone does that to me I'm not going to simply take it - if someone beat your wife at work would you simply shrug? There are more workers than potential bullies, and there are laws. Until the law comes, it's up to you.

      --
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    17. Re:Unions protect jobs just fine by Frosty+Piss · · Score: 1

      Unions are all about seniority and protect long standing members.

      And why shouldn't they? If you have been around for a long time and support the company you work for, you SHOULD have more pull.

      You act like "seniority" should mean nothing?

      I'm not surprise that a guy who moves around a lot and has no loyalty to their employer doesn't believe in unions, but not everyone is as transient as you.

      I've worked for the Federal Government for almost 25 years. Yes, I have a lot more "rights" than the guy who we hired last year. As it should be.

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    18. Re:Unions protect jobs just fine by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 1

      If you're beaten physically there are laws to deal with that and there are plenty of lawyers out there.

      Which is not particularly helpful if all the lawyers charge prices an individual worker can't possibly afford, the cops are indistinguishable from corporate security, and the judge is the boss's best buddy at the country club. This was pretty much the norm in the pre-union days, and is becoming the norm again as unions have less and less power.

      Frankly, if someone does that to me I'm not going to simply take it - if someone beat your wife at work would you simply shrug?

      Without unions, your options are: shrug, call the cops (see above), or charge into the workplace and get shot dead by the cops / security goons. This is not some dystopian cyberpunk fantasy. This is what actually happened, routinely, all the time before workers started organizing.

      There are more workers than potential bullies

      Um, yeah, and when a bunch of workers get together to protect their interests, it's called a "union."

      and there are laws. Until the law comes, it's up to you.

      If it's up to you alone, you're not going to get very far. If it's up to you and your co-workers, then yeah. And again, we have a word for the latter scenario. The hostility that word seems to bring out in a lot of people is frankly a puzzle to me.

      --
      The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
    19. Re:Unions protect jobs just fine by Marxdot · · Score: 1

      >Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.

    20. Re:Unions protect jobs just fine by theArtificial · · Score: 1

      Which is not particularly helpful if all the lawyers charge prices an individual worker can't possibly afford, the cops are indistinguishable from corporate security, and the judge is the boss's best buddy at the country club.

      Your argument boils down to "No they can't, corruption!" Lawyers can work probono, public defenders do this. Not to mention that never before has it been easier to document things and distribute them to a world wide audience. Sounds like a conflict of interest and there are mechanisms to deal with that as well.

      This was pretty much the norm in the pre-union days, and is becoming the norm again as unions have less and less power.

      The corruption stems deeper than unions, and their hands aren't clean either looking at how much union management makes in many cases, and defending (arguably) worthless members. Our legal system provides an advantage to those with money, this has nothing to do with union power, and is nothing new. Unions seem to do a lot more harm than good now-a-days, especially politically since they're directly contributing to political campaigns using tax dollars in some cases. Unions aren't a panacea, how are the Hostess workers faring this Christmas?

      Um, yeah, and when a bunch of workers get together to protect their interests, it's called a "union."

      Um, yeah, I work in an industry that doesn't have a union, software never has, and we're not subject to beatings. Not to say they don't happen, but it's not like it's "You can be them if they're not in a union!" How does that work? Are these union workers who will be beaten, as you claim, working in prisons? Or perhaps Police Officers? Many things have changed over the last 100 years, much of what we have today stems from their efforts. However, there are many examples of systemic problems involving unproductive members which need to be addressed if they want to remain competitive.

      --
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    21. Re:Unions protect jobs just fine by Livius · · Score: 1

      This is where the whole theory of what a union horribly breaks down: where a strike hurts the customer, not the employer.

    22. Re:Unions protect jobs just fine by AtariEric · · Score: 1

      Your argument boils down to "No they can't, corruption!" Lawyers can work probono, public defenders do this. Not to mention that never before has it been easier to document things and distribute them to a world wide audience. Sounds like a conflict of interest and there are mechanisms to deal with that as well.

      There's not going to be nearly enough pro-bono lawyers to cover the massive amount of abuses there will be - and the abusers know it.

      Um, yeah, I work in an industry that doesn't have a union, software never has, and we're not subject to beatings.

      Only because the blacklist is as effective, but harder to photograph.

      --
      Don't trust any concentration of power.
    23. Re:Unions protect jobs just fine by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Well one can generalise. While not all unionised workforces are overpaid, but there is a definite trend for being overpaid considering the amount of work employees do.

      Mind you it is a sweet gig if you can get it. I fondly remember working (or rather not working) at a biscuit factory and getting paid while being almost immune to firing. Honestly looking back at it I can see exactly why those biscuits are so bloody expensive in the shops. It was sickening what people got away with.

    24. Re:Unions protect jobs just fine by Mabhatter · · Score: 1

      The BIGGEST reason for a government union....
      Your bosses are elected liars and sociopaths. And change every two-four years. Union bosses are still one step higher in morality than that lot.

      Part of the reason for government unions is that the process of getting a government job in 1900 was so corrupt, politicians and and a President were getting shot and killed for failing basic job ethics we enjoy today.

    25. Re:Unions protect jobs just fine by bogjobber · · Score: 1

      How is that any different than the environment in the 70s and the 80s? That didn't stop them then. Go watch Harlan County, USA, and get back to us.

    26. Re:Unions protect jobs just fine by Frosty+Piss · · Score: 1

      Most federal workers also cannot join a union.

      Not so.

      The AFGE (AFL-CIO) represents most non-management Federal employees.

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    27. Re:Unions protect jobs just fine by Frosty+Piss · · Score: 1

      You anecdote is not supported by fact. That's simply NOT how Federal employee pay and benefits work at any level

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    28. Re:Unions protect jobs just fine by Frosty+Piss · · Score: 1

      Sweeter than my retirement. Sweeter than a lot of people who work for themselves.

      Well, that's too bad for you. Perhaps you should consider a different line of work. Are you saying that because your career and retirement plan sucks, mine should as well?

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    29. Re:Unions protect jobs just fine by mjwalshe · · Score: 1

      Yep I know of one UK FTSE100 company where this happened within the last few years its why they currently have very strict rules about how investigations are done - all meetings have external witnesses are recorded and the investigated person gets a copy of the tape.

    30. Re:Unions protect jobs just fine by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      Horses and buggies served to provide essential transportation. The question is not whether unions were once beneficial, but rather whether they are beneficial today.

      Do you have the same Concerns over food safety laws now that The Jungle is more than 100 years old? How about seat belts? Gosh, that was a long time ago, too.....

    31. Re:Unions protect jobs just fine by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      Are you saying that because your career and retirement plan sucks, mine should as well?

      Or because he's bought into crab mentality. That's what has teabaggers making $10 an hour w/o benefits screaming that teachers making $30k a year need to give up their "cushy" pensions and health care.....

    32. Re:Unions protect jobs just fine by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      From what I've seen, it's not the rank and file workers who benefit, it's the higher up people who make six figure salaries for holding a fancy title for a pointless internal bureaucracy,

      And the CEO of Wal-Mart makes more in two weeks than the average Wal-Mart employee does in his or her entire lifetime. But, by all means, focus on your alleged "union bosses" making six figures if that's where your priorities are...

    33. Re:Unions protect jobs just fine by Phrogman · · Score: 1

      No perhaps they won't go *directly* to beating up workers who complain, but I can see:
      * less attention spent on worker safety, updating fire suppression systems, ensuring First Aid personnel are available, equipped etc. That costs money for no visible gain, easy to reduce spending on.
      * longer hours demanded of workers, no overtime paid, lower wages - you want to keep your job? Shut up and suck it up. There are long lines of people waiting for your position.
      * Less vacation time, possibly a culture of insisting people not take a vaction but take cash in its place - with the cash amount being reduced over time.
      * no more payments from the company into retirement plans/pensions, or at least reduced rates before its eliminated.
      * On the spot firing for anyone who complains. Don't like it? talk to our lawyers, we have the cash, you don't.
      * Gonna try striking?, the management will hire Blackwater or their like to ensure you let strikebreakers through, and they won't worry about how rough they are.
      * No one to call out management when they do any sort of abuse of employees.

      Not all companies are going to behave badly lacking workers having some organized way to resist changes, but the bigger the company the better the chance they will. Mix in a healthy dose of corruption in government and law enforcement for added problems.

      Look at employment conditions in poor third world countries if you want the model for the workplace environment when *no one* is enforcing the rules. Unions at least can speak for their workers in some instances to help push the rights of all workers - even none union ones (minimum wage, 40 hour work week, pensions, overtime - all the result of union actions in the past).

      --
      "The first time I got drunk, I got married. The second time I bought a chimpanzee, after that I stayed sober" Arian Seid
  5. And the root cause is .... by kenaaker · · Score: 3, Insightful
    What the discussion will come around to is "What is the purpose of human society".

    The survivors will come to a different conclusion than the initial participants in the discussion.

  6. Fortunately, my career is predicated upon... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    ...human weakness and greed, so I will always have work.

  7. You've missed the point. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Unions aren't simply about "protecting jobs". More importantly unions have been about protecting the worker. Don't forget about work place safety, 40 hour work weeks, and collective bargaining. Those are all products of unionized labor. All of which are far more important than simply "protecting jobs". Unions are about having jobs worth protecting. You also seem to conveniently neglect the existence of major unions whose labor force is not easily replaced with automation carpenters, plumbers, nurses, restaurant, etc. Oh and by the way IT people have unions too.

    1. Re:You've missed the point. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Unions are about protecting unions and enriching the people who run unions. Unions are about getting people to believe that paying them makes there jobs worth protecting.

    2. Re:You've missed the point. by MavEtJu · · Score: 1

      Oh wow.
      Somebody who actually understands what unions are about. Too bad that the rest of the people here don't understand the whole of the concept about it.

      --
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    3. Re:You've missed the point. by Phrogman · · Score: 1

      The only way to get a fair and reasonable deal between workers and employers is for both sides to have people who can hash out an agreement. If the unions get too powerful then its bad for business, if there are no unions, then the corporations are too powerful and its bad for their employees. Its pretty simple.
      A lot of the basic concepts concerning the workplace, worker's rights and expectations etc that we hold as obvious have been bought with the blood of unionized workers who fought for those rights and died in the hundreds in the last century.
      I have only been part of one union, and personally speaking they were pretty useless, but I fully support the right of employees to unionize and defend their rights.

      Do I think that perhaps the way in which unions are run needs some supervising to avoid abuses, sure, that might be the case, but we *need* unions more than ever these days, despite what all the right-wing nutjobs will post here in response.

      --
      "The first time I got drunk, I got married. The second time I bought a chimpanzee, after that I stayed sober" Arian Seid
  8. The solution is clear... by operagost · · Score: 1

    Start unionizing robots! Well, at least that will keep the union bosses employed.

    --

    Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
  9. isn't that *American* unions? by Trepidity · · Score: 5, Informative

    The U.S. is an odd place in many ways, on all sides: how the unions operate, how employers operate, and how labor law operates (which in turn influences those things).

    In Germany's export-manufacturing sector, automation hasn't really made unions irrelevant. Nor has it in Denmark's. But unions there are a bit different, as is the overall political climate. In particular, large employer confederations and large union confederations negotiate more frequently, and on a more consensus-oriented basis.

    1. Re:isn't that *American* unions? by Opportunist · · Score: 2

      Germany maybe isn't the best example you could field. Essentially, it's government and lobbying groups sitting together to find out how to circumvent worker protection laws for the sacred holy cow of a low unemployment rate.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    2. Re:isn't that *American* unions? by Trepidity · · Score: 4, Informative

      There's a lot of horse-trading going on, yes, but they nonetheless succeed in maintaining relatively good worker protections and benefits. Consider how much better German car companies treat their unionized German workers vs. their nonunionized American workers.

    3. Re:isn't that *American* unions? by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      And that's why those same companies don't hire people anymore but rent them from temp agencies. These people are not under the cover of unions and hence can be squeezed dry at will.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  10. What about non-factory jobs?? by digitalaudiorock · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The whole premise of the article seems to assume that unions are exclusively about 1950s-like factory jobs. How about all those low paying service jobs out there? I don't see too many robots stocking shelves at Walmart. In decades gone by, in a large part due to unions, a guy who was willing to get up every day and go sweep floors at a factory could actually survive. Today's equivalent, those low paying service jobs, pay so little you're almost better off not working at all.

    That's why unions are under attach these days...because a large chunk of corporate America is still dependent on a few jobs that they can't automate or outsource and, if unionized, might actually pay a fair wage...and we can't have that now can we??

    1. Re:What about non-factory jobs?? by Ken_g6 · · Score: 1

      The whole premise of the article seems to assume that unions are exclusively about 1950s-like factory jobs. How about all those low paying service jobs out there? I don't see too many robots stocking shelves at Walmart.

      Have you seen any? Where there's one there's bound to be more, and where there are none there's likely to be one soon.

      Actually, I'm kind of surprised by the service jobs that remain. I'm surprised we haven't seen a fully-automated fast food restaurant yet, for instance. I guess they're hiding in Japan and Germany for now.

      --
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    2. Re:What about non-factory jobs?? by Velex · · Score: 1

      I'm surprised we haven't seen a fully-automated fast food restaurant yet, for instance.

      Not quite the same, but here you go: http://marshallbrain.com/manna1.htm

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    3. Re:What about non-factory jobs?? by SwedishPenguin · · Score: 1

      For that matter, from what I've gathered (on Slashdot) of working conditions in the IT industry in the US, they could certainly use a union. Unions are there to provide a counter-force to the interests of owners who would most like to have free 24 hour slave labor if it was possible. I would never go along with the working conditions told of here on Slashdot and they would never fly in a country which does have some measure of employee power. (even if it's quickly diminishing in the wake of 30 years of neoliberal policies here in Sweden)

  11. Ayn Rand Wins by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    All the eaters can die. Then we'll have a few fit producers and lots or robots. It will be paradise.

  12. Re:Who's left to defend anybody? by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 2

    The reason that unions are going away is because they never protected anybody against the plutocrats. They were just a vehicle that union leaders used to join the ranks of the plutocrats.

    --
    The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
  13. Re:Nirvana is when humanity does what we want to d by datapharmer · · Score: 4, Informative

    actually that is hardly correct. While it is hard to distinguish "work" from non-work activities in a hunter-gatherer society (thus your 24/7) if we use standard methods to delineate these activities you will find that most hunter-gatherers dedicated only 12-18 hours per peek to work-comparable activities. That is overly broad, but don't think you've got it so great. You work a lot more to watch tv than our ancestors (and some current cultures) do to watch the stars. It is all a matter of perception and values.

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  14. Re:A Union's Primary Goal Isn't to save Jobs by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 2

    The primary role of a union is to raise money to support Democratic Party politicians, with a close second being to allow union leaders to live the same lifestyle and have the same income as a corporate CEO.

    --
    The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
  15. Less labor unions, more government by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I think labor unions and strikes are a historic relic that should go away. However, they need to be replaced by an aggressive tax regime whose stated purpose is to even out wealth and income differences. The industry and the economy take place under the protection of democratic governments, and the government has an obligation to redestribute wealth it has helped create. We may have to recognize that a large percentage of the population is not meaningfully employable. They should be able to rely on "dividends" from the government, that is, negative taxation, to support a decent standard of living.

    It may be that the current market economy works against the benefit of the nation as a whole. So far the game theoretical assumption has been that individual greed works to the advantage of the whole society. Offshoring and automation may be symptoms of flaws in the assumption. The macroeconomists should present tweaks or alternatives to market economy--after all, most of the economics Nobel prizes have been won by American scholars.

  16. Don't over generalize by Alomex · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Unions are still strong in Europe and they too have labor saving robots. The key difference is that both union and management philosophies seem to be different there. Managers have a social conscience and unions do not oppose every effort to increase productivity.

    1. Re:Don't over generalize by jbmartin6 · · Score: 2

      Thank you! Despite the summary's assertion to the contrary, my problem with unions isn't whether or not they can protect jobs. It's that they don't police their own membership, and instead make it very difficult to get rid of the worst workers. If unions put more effort into providing value for employers, as you say, there would be more unions. As a worker in the US, I want nothing to do with any union,from what I've seen they take money and do little except campaign for a rigid and inflexible workplace.

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    2. Re:Don't over generalize by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Careful with that generalization you're now making. Europe is far less homogeneous than you're suggesting. The strongest unions are in the southern European states, not coincidentally the states where state welfare runs rampant, debts explode and productivity stagnates. Greek unions are actively sabotaging the economic reforms despite the fact that the country is kept alive by massive EU subsidies (hidden as far-below-market interest rates on intra-government loans).

      An interesting case is Sweden, where the unions have been actively pushing industrialization and automation. There's far less social tension there, which probably explains part of it. Furthermore, it's not a heavily populated country, so the idea of robots augmenting the workforce isn't so threatening.

    3. Re:Don't over generalize by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      It's that they don't police their own membership, and instead make it very difficult to get rid of the worst workers.

      Tried anti-union horseshit. There's nothing about unions that prevent workers from being fired for cause.

      Nothing.

      If you've worked for a non-unionized employer of any size, you've seen workers that weren't "pulling their own weight" or "got away with murder without being fired" and all the other canards that are thrown around against unions. Where were all your concerns then?

    4. Re:Don't over generalize by jbmartin6 · · Score: 1

      True, there's nothing inherent in the concept that prevents it. But I didn't say 'prevents' I said 'make it very difficult' which is true. Been there several times.

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    5. Re:Don't over generalize by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      But I didn't say 'prevents' I said 'make it very difficult' which is true

      Not if there's probable cause, but that's the point. Contrary to another piece of anti-union propaganda, union workers are no more happy to coddle and shoulder a slacker than non-union employees. Because then they'll end up having to do the slacker's work without getting a share of the slacker's pay.

    6. Re:Don't over generalize by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      my experience

      If your experience includes any time working at non-unionized shops, you've seen plenty of employees stick around despite their best efforts to be fired. Since you want to argue argument-by-anecdote, I worked at a place that made Wal-Mart look pro-union. One of the older workers said to a young woman, "I'd like to rape the shit out of you." Nothing happened because he was buddies with the plant manager. Obviously that's an indictment of all non-union shops which should promptly be banned!

      You're making selective arguments and ignoring the issue of due process, that and the fact that unions bring better wages, benefits and working conditions. Are you also against the 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th amendments because they are "inconvenient" for management, I mean law enforcement?

  17. Unions are destroying jobs. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Unions are destroying jobs. Sorry that I'm sitting on the fence on this one.

    I'm not in a union and never would be. Personal choice.
    My sister is in the TWA with over 20 yrs, yet due to senority, she gets only 2 weeks of vacation annually and those have been the worse weeks possible - week after thanksgiving, for example.

    My college roomate is in an engineer union. He's been getting 3% raises every 18 months for 25 yrs. He's actually lost money by working in that company all this time. In my first few years, I was getting 10-15% raises every 12 months. Paying for performance works for people who can actually perform. THAT is what unions are afraid about.

    The only union jobs that will remain will be for those low skill and apprentice-type jobs that cannot be sent overseas - delivery drivers, truckers, whatever the Teamsters do, perhaps farm workers. Things where location is cricital, not skill.

    Highly skilled AND motivated workers will leave the union to start their own concerns where they can keep more money, but also have more responsibility.

    There was a time when unions were needed and they helped to shape our industrialized workforce. Like the 2-party system and fax machines, unions are behind the times, out of date and need to go away.

  18. Most federal workers are not unionized by Zontar_Thing_From_Ve · · Score: 1

    Only about 31% of US federal workers are unionized. The majority of these are in blue collar jobs. I used to work for the federal government as a computer programmer and none of my fellow IT workers were in a union. Given how it's against the law for federal employees to strike (look up what President Reagan did to the air traffic controllers if you don't know), most federal workers view union membership as a waste of money. I can tell you from what I saw at my job that the only thing the union could do if you were going to be laid off or fired for just cause was to delay the inevitable. You would still lose your job, but they might delay it for a year if they fought against the action. The post by Shivetya is just another example, at least in the USA, of people having big misconceptions about federal jobs.

  19. Re:Yep, the robots will eventually take all our jo by Opportunist · · Score: 3, Insightful

    History tells us that you can only oppress a sizable amount of your population if you can either convince them that it's good the way it is (some sort of bullshit akin to a "god given place in your life") or if they still have something they could lose. Well, we can say with some certainty that nobody really gives a shit about the former (could that be the reason why the overzealous religious right wants to push the cult of zombie Jesus, in the vain hope that people return to actually believing it should be that way?). So you have to keep people fed and sheltered somehow.

    Once this last straw isn't met, all it takes is a leader.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  20. Tech jobs by roc97007 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    > Tech has been steadily moving jobs overseas to lower costs.

    ...with often less than satisfactory results.

    --
    Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    1. Re:Tech jobs by hillbluffer · · Score: 1

      I've seen a FEW situations, where the company had a US based team to correct errors made overseas. But mostly, as long as CEOs and upper management can jack up their bonuses and pay, then bail out just before the results of outsourcing crashes their company, they simply do not care. Mangement is no longer in "for the long haul"... it's now "get mine quick and get out".

    2. Re:Tech jobs by roc97007 · · Score: 1

      > Ok, you say, Indians and Chinese are lousy administrators. Frankly, that's not always true.

      Absolutely, that is not always true. I've worked with some absolutely brilliant people from India. Like, "I want to be you when I grow up" good. That isn't the problem.

      The problem is the business model for outsourced IT providers. To make the model profitable, both for the outsource company and the company buying the service, personnel are structured with a few brilliant workers doing the sales engineering and high level support, and a huge mass of untrained former rickshaw drivers and store clerks doing the helpdesk and first level support. The first level support is handed a big stack of procedures and talking scripts, and let loose on the unsuspecting customer. So shortly after cutover, when the big brains go off to another contract, chaos ensues when the customer realizes that they're talking to someone with an old laptop balanced on a TV tray who doesn't know the difference between NFS and a gecko.

      But wait, one might say, a savvy customer might train up the offshore support people and get a better result, right? Tried that. And at first it appeared to work. Most of the offshore personnel were grateful for any training we could give them. (At our expense, but never mind.)

      However, the business model doesn't work unless they get paid starvation wages, and there's always someone willing to hire an experienced admin. So as soon as they get some training, they're gone. Replaced by another store clerk who doesn't understand that "your account has been disabled due to 26 bad login attempts" means that YOUR ACCOUNT HAS BEEN DISABLED DUE TO 26 BAD LOGIN ATTEMPTS and you NEED TO FIND SOMEONE WITH ROOT ACCESS TO FIX IT. Sorry. Deep breaths....

      And it's not ever ever ever ever going to get better, because that would break the business model.

      Oh, outsourcing will seem cool at first, because they will have absolutely brilliant people doing the demo. But you will be disappointed with the long term results, if you manage to stay in business.

      > I don't know if tech in the West is feeling all the same pressures, but in the expensive parts of Asia, outsourcing is killing the job market dead.

      Welcome to our world. Don't come to the US, it's just as bad.

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    3. Re:Tech jobs by roc97007 · · Score: 1

      Nod. Our CIO bailed less than a year after cutover. Now we're struggling with the mess.

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    4. Re:Tech jobs by roc97007 · · Score: 1

      Selling $500 iPods while paying workers $.20 an hour is hardly unsatisfactory.

      ...for the business owners, yes. But what I was addressing was outsourcing IT support, where personnel have to deal with complex problems and be able to communicate effectively with users. I think what they're proving is that company savings plus outsource company overhead plus outsource profit margin leaves so little for actual wages that it's unlikely the personnel will have the necessary expertise to effectively provide the service. And as soon as they do get that expertise, they move on to better jobs. And I don't blame them for that. Who would work in a hell hole if they had the ability to better themselves?

      I think that manufacturing and assembly in China is a little different. First, it's manufacturing and assembly. They may be putting together tech toys, but after setup there's not a lot to do that one would call deeply technical. Second, it's China. Word is, there isn't a lot of advancement opportunities.

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
  21. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  22. US unions are bizarre by stenvar · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Michigan lawmakers just approved a right-to-work law in an effort to dismantle union power,

    Right-to-work is the law in many European nations with strong labor unions.

    The widespread use of closed shop and union security agreements is a US aberration and has nothing to do with union power in general, it has to do with protecting the power of a few powerful and politically connected organizations.

    1. Re:US unions are bizarre by Mabhatter · · Score: 1

      Closed -shop means you have to be a dues paying Union member BEFORE you can ASK to be employed at a workplace.

      This is a Union-shop where the Union and company agree everybody after they are hired will be in the Union.

      Ironically, most companies dontbhavebany mechanism to deal with non-union employees. Many don't even have a way to PAY you outside the formal rules of the union contract. Michigan is such a strong union state we have virtually no "work" rules that are enforced outside minors.

    2. Re:US unions are bizarre by stenvar · · Score: 1

      Oh, pardon me for being so terribly imprecise; I meant "union shop". The difference is whether you're forced to join a union after you get hired or before...

  23. The promise by no-body · · Score: 1

    a couple of decades ago was that once "we" have computers, "they" will do the work, "we" won't have to work so much and have more time for other things. A bright future ahead.

    And - yeeeih, it's happening all over! People work less, more and more work is done by machines.

    Should be all fine and dandy, unions totally unconsidered - right?

  24. Irrelevance by RudyHartmann · · Score: 1

    Heck, automation is making procreation irrelevant. Ugh.

    --
    Oh, yeah! Wise guy, huh? Woob woob woob woob! Nyuk! Nyuk!
  25. You can't move a coal mine overseas but... by Invisible+Now · · Score: 1

    ... you can automate it.

    Service workers are the only group with a chance to defend their unions. (but watch out for those proposed McDonalds robo-flippers) Nurses, teachers, fireman, DMV workers, etc can't be offshored.

    But imagine the uproar if DMV and other government backshop workers were offshored to India. Your taxes processed in Bangalore. LOL (or not)

    --

    "Knowing everything doesn't help..."

  26. Re:Interesting... by pellik · · Score: 2

    You just sound like all those blacksmiths who complained that the car will destroy the horse shoe industry. And it did! :) And that wasn't that bad either.

    Yes, but the discussion isn't about an industry that can be replaced with another industry, the discussion is about removing most of the jobs from all of the industries.

  27. This debate emerged many decades years ago by G3ckoG33k · · Score: 1

    This debate emerged many decades ago. Here is one example

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASEA_IRB

    "The ASEA IRB is an industrial robot series for material handling, packing, transportation, polishing, welding, and grading. Built in 1975, the robot allowed movement in 5 axes with a lift capacity of 6 kg. It was the world's first fully electrically driven and microprocessor-controlled robot, using Intel's first chipset."

    What is reported now was also reported then, for fear of losing jobs. Robots fears are nothing new.

    Isn't Metropolis from 1927 (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0017136/, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolis_(film)) and Frankenstein (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankenstein) from 1818 about this too in a way.

    Technophobia.

    Humans tend to work around these issues.

    1. Re:This debate emerged many decades years ago by G3ckoG33k · · Score: 1

      "By dying of starvation and brutality."

      But not in the countries where the robots are common.

  28. Of course they should be protecting workers... by superdave80 · · Score: 1

    .. The problem with unions is they can't protect jobs.

    And there lies the problem with unions. Why are they protecting 'jobs'? Shouldn't they be protecting the workers in those jobs? Trying to force employers to keep useless jobs is just going to drive that employer into bankruptcy. Who gains from that?

  29. Automation is good by enriquevagu · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Repeat with me: Automation is good. It makes we, human kind, more productive. With the same human work, we can get more benefits for ourselves, so on average our wealth improves. The people that do not need to do manual and repetitive jobs can move to a more creative work which produces more benefit for mankind. Gutenberg's printing was good. e-mail was good, despite removing works in the Post office. Hydraulic excavators are good. And all of them reduce the number of jobs, and unions cannot and shouldn't try to prevent this. Fortunately, we are no longer relying on picks and shovels to dig tunnels.

    The problem is not with automation, which is good for mankind as a whole; the problem is with the distribution of wealth. We are facing a serious problem, in which those who have the machines (capital) become much richer by producing the same as before, and those that lose their employments become poorer. I certainly believe that this problem will aggravate with time, as more jobs are out-dated by technology, and "the system" cannot provide an alternative way to earn a living.

    One option might be to move to a system in which everyone has a basic "social earning", enough for a living, while those with a work would earn more money. However, this imposes serious trouble, such as obvious abuse and unfairness. I see the problem, but I don't foresee a clear solution.

    1. Re:Automation is good by tftp · · Score: 1

      Repeat with me: Automation is good. It makes we, human kind, more productive.

      It is not the goal. If you want productivity you could also send 90% of the lesser performing humankind to death camps. But we don't do that - because productivity is not the goal. Well-being of all living humans is.

      The people that do not need to do manual and repetitive jobs can move to a more creative work which produces more benefit for mankind.

      So the only reason why a barely literate janitor is cleaning toilets instead of writing a bestseller is ... he is too busy with toilets, do I get it right?

      e-mail was good, despite removing works in the Post office. Hydraulic excavators are good.

      There is no universal "good." If the USPS contracts, lots of useless work (delivery of paper waste) will stop. On the other hand, thousands of workers will be laid off. On the other hand, millions of advertisers will direct their ad expenses into something else - perhaps less harmful to the ecology (those flyers kill trees and pollute rivers.) Someone benefits, and someone loses.

      The problem is not with automation, which is good for mankind as a whole; the problem is with the distribution of wealth.

      I agree with that. If we could transition overnight from a capitalist society where *individuals* own factories to the society where the entire society owns those factories then automation would only result in fewer work hours. Unfortunately this society has tons of other problems. Perhaps in the end, when workers do all the work and the humans are completely irrelevant, it would work. But the intermediate steps, such as socialism, do not work because they are unstable by nature (they depend on people acting against their best interests.) The abuse and unfairness that you mention are right up that alley.

    2. Re:Automation is good by tftp · · Score: 1

      Moar Production is the goal only when that product can be sold to attain more power. However at some point 90% of the world don't have anything that you need, and you already have all the power on the planet... then the game plan changes. For example, Earth could become a carefully constructed Paradise for a small number of aristocrats (also known as owners and operators of roboticized industry.) The rest of the population can be discarded, with a mere handful of those, perhaps, selected to work as trusted leutenants and assorted slaves. That's a path that is very likely, considering the natural human desire for unlimited power - and especially for power over other humans.

    3. Re:Automation is good by EmagGeek · · Score: 1

      You're failing to mention that the workers have a fundamental responsibility in all of this.

      If a worker is going to be replaced with a machine, freeing him up to embark on more valuable productive pursuits, he has to make himself CAPABLE of such pursuits. That is HIS responsibility - it is not the responsibility of the wealthy to simply GIVE him additional wealth when he has made himself obsolete by failing to learn new skills or trades.

      Otherwise, your post is spot-on. We should ALL be using automation to free ourselves up from low-value tasks in order to pursue higher value productivity. Instead, workers choose to organize these huge bitching and moaning organizations to complain about being replaced, rather than actually pursuing those more valuable endeavors. That failing is theirs, and they own it. If the result is that they become poor and dependent upon government, that is their own problem.

    4. Re:Automation is good by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      You're failing to mention that the workers have a fundamental responsibility in all of this.

      If a worker is going to be replaced with a machine, freeing him up to embark on more valuable productive pursuits, he has to make himself CAPABLE of such pursuits. That is HIS responsibility - it is not the responsibility of the wealthy to simply GIVE him additional wealth when he has made himself obsolete by failing to learn new skills or trades.

      And what if the worker is simply incapable of doing that. Do you really think that the average Walmart employee is going to start writing linux kernel drivers?

      My favorite analogy is this - come up with a work program for a mentally retarded man with no arms or legs. The only difference between such a man and yourself is a matter of degree. Somewhere on the continuum of creativity, intelligence, and athleticism every human on earth falls. Below some point in each area there isn't much point in employing somebody. Progress tends to continually raise the bar in all three.

      Arguing that those with wealth have no duty to those without it is like arguing that those without wealth have no duty to keep mobs from lynching those with wealth. Such a society simply degenerates to might makes right.

  30. the purpose of unions by 0-9a-zA-Z_.+!*'()123 · · Score: 1

    the purpose of unions is similar to that of lawyers: to advance the interests of their clients.

    If automation is resolving the problems of employer-employee relations then automation is making unions irrelevant, much in the same way that if robot counseling were to make marriages more successful they would be making divorce lawyers irrelevant.

    The purpose of unions is not to "protect jobs" but to advance the interests of their clients: one such interest is the preservation of the jobs, but also the handling of grievances (I was a party to a unionization effort that revolved almost exclusively to providing some system of handling grievances as part of a contract).

    Automation is making unions irrelevant indirectly by eliminating both the injured and under-represented workers but also by eliminating incompetent and arbitrary managers.

    It is bad management that makes unions useful, in the same way that bad faith parties to contracts make lawyers useful. If management was reasonable, fair and respectful then unions would find themselves without clients.

    Aggressive anti-union efforts mostly revolving around fear, intimidation, illegal firing for unionizing, forced company meetings in which employers "hint" about what will happen if they opt to unionize are the some of the barriers to unionizing. Laws favor anti-union efforts and there is only weak enforcement of the existing laws in any event.

    IT suffers from bad management just like all industries. The value of IT employees and the relative ease of workers to change companies perhaps makes it hard to unionize from a strict wages perspective, but from a grievances perspective it is just as useful.

  31. Marshall Brain by Sir_Eptishous · · Score: 1
    --
    We play the game with the bravery of being out of range
  32. Crap, Crapola, and Major Crap by rueger · · Score: 1

    To all those "unions are past their prime" "people should be happy with any shitty job" "we can't COMPETE and pay living wages" "I'm a big enough asshole that I don't need a union" types.

    Keep me posted so that I can come laugh in your face when your employer offshores your job, bounces you out the door, there are no more unemployment benefits, and you wind up working as a minimum wage, no benefits or insurance greeter at WalMart while your elderly mother dies a slow, painful death because you can't afford medical care or prescription medicine that used to be covered by your employer provided insurance.

    You know NOTHING about how unions work, what they do, and why they matter to an a awful lot of people. You are also entirely ignoring the fact that an awful lot of employers are cheap, nasty, dishonest scum (yes Caterpillar, I mean you) who will shit on their employees at every chance.

    Here's hoping you find yourself at the bottom of the food chain very fast.

    1. Re:Crap, Crapola, and Major Crap by Marxdot · · Score: 1

      Precisely. If only I could mod this up.

  33. Jobs are so 20th century by ziggy_az · · Score: 1

    It's time to move on. Labor and work will soon be relics of the past. We need to find an economic model that functions without those things. As efficiency continues to improve, the human workforce becomes more and more obsolete.

    --
    "Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
  34. Full employment by volmtech · · Score: 1

    We could go to a Soviet Union command economy. With computers and gps tracking everyone could be given a job and the system would know if they actually showed up for work. Put a Berlin Wall type barrier along the southern boarder to keep unwanted workers out. Collage students could "volunteer" to pick crops at harvest time. With all business owned by the system products would be produced as needed and there would be no need for CEOs to maximize stock prices. Seems to be working in North Korea, we could give it a try.

  35. Au Contraire by composer777 · · Score: 1

    Automation is making unions MORE relevant than ever.

  36. Breaking the link between production and labour by mat690 · · Score: 1

    Once the link is broken between production and labour then socialism can actually work. If we can produce limitless quantities of anything then no one will ever have to do without anything they want ever again. This is progress towards that goal. Bring on the startrek replicators.

  37. Re:Nirvana is when humanity does what we want to d by LordLucless · · Score: 3, Insightful

    You work a lot more to watch tv than our ancestors (and some current cultures) do to watch the stars. It is all a matter of perception and values.

    And also to live longer, more free from pain, disease and hunger, and with greater physical security. It's not just a question of entertainment.

    --
    Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
  38. Tech WAS moving jobs overseas... by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

    "Tech has been steadily moving jobs overseas to lower costs."

    Correction: you are behind the curve. The tech industry, overall, has been pulling jobs BACK from overseas for the last year or so.

    A lot of the "cheap" overseas labor also turned out, in the long run, to be low-quality as well.

    Go to any of the international job boards for tech positions. Count how many of them now say "North America or Western Europe ONLY."

  39. Sustainable Automation by trout007 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    There is a natural regulator on the pace of automation. It is the interest rate. If interest rates (prices) were set on a free market with a hard currency it would be based on how much money people had saved (supply) and how much people wanted to borrow (demand). This works out nicely because any automation involves a large expenditure of money to increase productivity. If there is low unemployment and people have high wages and money saved it will lead to low interest rates. This causes businesses to want to invest in capital equipment because labor is expensive and money is cheap. On the other hand if you have high unemployment, low wages, and low savings you will have a high interest rate. This leads businesses to hire people because it's more profitable. This is a natural balance of sustainable automation.

    What we have now is the Federal Reserve setting artificially low interest rates. This causes businesses to invest in automation at a time in which we have high unemployment, low wages, and low savings. This is exactly the wrong approach. It causes lots of malinvestment by automating production to increase capacity but nobody has enough money to buy these goods.

    --
    I love Jesus, except for his foreign policy.
  40. Myth of Automation by skyraker · · Score: 1

    Automation will not replace human beings. Even if automation can begin doing some of our jobs, there will need to be people to make sure the automation works. They've been using automation in the auto industry for decades, it hasn't cause the extinction of the auto worker. Driverless cars replacing truck drivers? Haha, more like truck drivers sitting behind the wheel of a truck driving on its own making sure things go right. Things break, and without people there to fix them they'll never last.

  41. I misread the title by Minwee · · Score: 2

    Maybe it's just a news overload today, but I read that as "Ammunition Is Making Unions Irrelevant", and wondered just what kind of contract negotiation tactics had brought that realization on.

  42. Income Cap by Bensam123 · · Score: 1

    Who says everyone needs to contribute back? If someone wants to live off absolutely no money in a hole somewhere, why not let them? The idea is there will be a percent that will give back hand over fist more then those that want to live in a hole. It doesn't need to be a 1:1 ratio, it doesn't even need to be a 10:1 ratio. Some people simply do and are worth a hell of a lot more to society then that one guy who wants to live in a hole.

    And if society shifts enough, it may actually start to make those people living in that hole feel bad, and they too will eventually crawl out and try to better society. There are a LOT of different ways of benefiting society, not just earning minimum wage working at Tbell. That is something that can't be quantified in economics. Empowering people and making people feel like they can make a difference without being punished for simply trying is extremely important. Our society IS way too dependent on the whole idea that you have to get ahead over everyone else, so you have the bloody battle of capitalism in which everyone tries to claw, scratch, and fight their way to the top... All so they can buy $250 plates at an expensive restaurant somewhere.

    I'm actually in a slightly different category. I think a stipend for the average citizen is a great idea. I also think a income cap is also a very good idea. This most definitely will get a lot of hate, but income has huge diminishing returns for people. Perhaps not for a company as it can continue to grow, but once you meet a certain income to cover basic necessities as an individual it makes less and less of a difference. So if you have a income cap at like 100x the yearly income of a minimum wage worker, like $7.5 x 40hours/week x 52 = $15,600 you'd end up capped at a yearly income of $1,560,000, which is more then enough to live off of comfortably for like 95% of the population and that 5% that spend in extreme excess would simply have to trim back their ridiculous lifestyles.

    If the person earns more then that amount they either have a choice of paying it in taxes (which then gets put into public services and bettering the country as a whole) or reinvesting it in wherever it came from, such as a company. And if that company has an excess income it'll look to either reinvest it, which helps society as a whole, or they'll simply sit on it, just like the person in the hole. But eventually, someday, they too will realize that just sitting on money doesn't do anyone any good and there is no reason to actually acquire money just to have money.

    Obviously there are a lot of ways to cheat the system (such as having your company pay for everything as a business expense), but we have branches of the government to deal with that and I'm sure they'll get better at doing it once they have more practice.

  43. Well, it's hardly just automation... by boethius · · Score: 1

    Unions have been irrelevant for a very long time really.

    When the U.S. was the global center for industrial manufacturing might - steel, automobiles, electronics, raw materials of all kinds - the confluence and manufacturing hegemony allowed unions to proliferate and create in tandem with big corporations an artificial middle class. Blue collar labor lifted with the waters of America's financial superiority and power into the middle class.

    Yet fundamentally this rise was not the product of capitalism but more of communism, which all unions fundamentally derive their labor ideology and history from the American Communist Party.

    Now, with globalization and the utter reversal of the U.S.'s fortunes - yes, it is still probably the center of the global economy in most respects, though obviously China, India, and Russia, among others, are coming up quickly - the relevance of unions has substantively disappeared. You can't negotiate a collective bargaining contract demanding middle-class wages and Cadillac health and retirement benefits when the company can either ship the jobs overseas - as they often do, now - or simply shut down the operation (see Hostess' recent bankruptcy and liquidation for an example of a union-fueled demise).

    Unions do not innovate nor do they create positive relationships with employers; indeed, they are embedded adversarial relationships with employers. Sure they and the employees can "demand" higher wages and better benefits but the simple truth is that globalization has removed their bargaining chips. Instead, labor becomes just what it should have been all along - market-driven.

  44. Heck, whole lead is pretty misleading by davecb · · Score: 1

    Unions can't protect jobs, although they sometimes think they can. What they can do is protect workers in cases where there is a big imbalance in bargaining power between owner and worker.

    In a tech company with less than a hundred-odd people (some exceedingly odd), a union is less than useful. In a low-tech company with many people, it's almost a necessity. When I was at Motor Wheel, the union was cool. When I was at Sun, I never felt the lack.

    When car wheels are mostly made by robots, the humans in the plant will probably want a union. Humans working in high tech may not, although the AI's might (:-))

    --
    davecb@spamcop.net
  45. Free trade, not automation by manu0601 · · Score: 1

    It is free trade, not automation that makes unions powerless

    Automation yields productivity gains with less work. If production could not be moved oversea, unions could bargain wage increase and work hour decrease.

  46. You get the Unions you deserve by Ozoner · · Score: 2

    In the USA the Unions are demonised and consequently they do not have a constructive role in society.

    In Europe Unions are generally respected and work together with Employer's to improved both Productivity and Working Conditions.

    One key point is your definition of "Productivity": In America, improved productivity means more money for the super-rich. In Europe it means a better return for the whole of society.

    You reap what you sow......

  47. Is it just me... by eagee · · Score: 1

    ... or have slashdot headlines been turning into total crap since they got bought out? Am I just being biased here?

  48. Alternate view... by TheRealHocusLocus · · Score: 1

    Michelin jawbreakers just approved a right-to-work law in an effort to disseminate unicorn powder, but unicorns are already becoming irrelevant. The problem with unicorns is they can't protect faeries. They can't stop a coven from moving faeries over fleas, closing orifices, or replacing puffins with saltines. Indeed, improvements in fornification is making the notion attractive again for trans-substantiation, according to U.S. belligerence Global Phlegm-goblins 2030 report. The phlegm-goblins are clear. Amazons spent $775 million this year to acquire a coven, Aptiva Sisters that makes glowbots used in whorehouses. Fornification will replace whorehouse puffins, assembly-line and even bobtail puffins. In time, Smeagol's divers cartoons will replace hooting blowfish in the bloated industry. Unicorns sometimes get blamed for creating perforated environments and pushing faeries over fleas. But the bleech industry, which isn't unicornized, is a counterpoint. Bleech has been steadily moving faeries over fleas to lower posts.

    And still insists he sees the ghosts.

    --
    <blink>down the rabbit hole</blink>
  49. Mincome [Re:Title is misleading] by DeadCatX2 · · Score: 2

    You might be interested to read about the "mincome" - it's quite similar. The experiment seems to have found that only mothers and teenagers really worked less.

    --
    :(){ :|:& };:
    1. Re:Mincome [Re:Title is misleading] by OneAhead · · Score: 2

      Wicked! So it does actually have a chance of working, then. Wikipedia even claims that it would have benefits for society.

  50. Basic income in exchange for min wage by DeadCatX2 · · Score: 1

    I'm with you on the idea of a social safety net, however constructed, but then it should go paired with a removal of the minimum wage

    I am 100% for this idea. Get rid of the minimum wage and replace it with a stipend of some sort. This would make it easier to earn a living on a lower wage, opening up a ton of new jobs that were just not possible before because they weren't worth the minimum wage, and it would also help make American workers more competitive in a global marketplace.

    --
    :(){ :|:& };:
  51. Automation should make life easier by KarlIsNotMyName · · Score: 1

    That's what it's for, making machines do what humans otherwise have to. That should only mean that it frees up human time.

    Instead we have, as we always have had, with royals before, private corporations now, a small elite taking the majority of the resources for themselves, and reaping the benefits of what all of humanity has produced.

    --
    We are all God's parents.
  52. Automation is making people irrelevant... by russotto · · Score: 1

    ...but not all the people at the same time. What do you do when you have a huge number of people who from birth to death who simply cannot produce enough to provide for their own survival, despite the cost of that survival being quite low due to the same automation which lowered their worth?

  53. Re:Nirvana is when humanity does what we want to d by rusl · · Score: 1

    Well, we don't really know that much about the past. But saying that we are better off now and live a better quality of life is essential to our ideology of progress: lack of facts be damned.

    --
    Stupidity is its own reward.
  54. Inheriting wealth or getting a big break by tepples · · Score: 1

    And how does someone become rich, except by working?

    By inheriting wealth. Or by happening to be in the right place at the right time to get noticed by a talent scout in an industry and receiving an investment disproportionate to your effort on that particular day.

  55. Baristas and busquers by FreedomFirstThenPeac · · Score: 1

    One thing that Henry Ford was noted for was his idea that the workers should be paid well enough to afford the products they produce (at least, in basic industries like car production). This idea (that workers are also customers) may need to be revisited. How will a world operate when it is producing all the electric cars we need with only a handful of technicians running massively automated factories? More importantly, how will we keep clothing and food production factories running when the only work available is as baristas and busquers? The automated workplace needs a new model for (re)distributing income, or it will collapse from lack of markets. And we cannot simply borrow against equity (like we did in the 1990s with housing) to fuel the consumer-based economy. The transition from industrial to the new subsistence society is not going to be any smoother than any other massive shifts in economic systems were.. Fasten your seatbelts, it's going to be a rough ride.

    --
    "There is no god but allah" - well, they got it half right.
  56. Tax the machines by Troy+from+Montana · · Score: 1

    Tax them out of business...what good is a business that cannot create jobs? The thing is we have a growing population and infrastructure and a shrinking tax base. The repugs job bill is a silly simple one liner...0% corporate tax...surely this government and most others are dieing. What is next...back to wealthy barons, Imperialists, and Monarchs? After the collapse that a lot of people probably engineered and look forward to.

  57. Bizzare anti-union dumbfuckery by Uberbah · · Score: 1

    Picture making the rounds on Facebook addresses this tired canard rather well:

    "I called the Chamber of Commerce today and asked to join without paying any dues.. They said that's not fair to the other dues paying members of the chamber and denied me. How is that different from Right to Work?"

    1. Re:Bizzare anti-union dumbfuckery by stenvar · · Score: 1

      How is that different from Right to Work

      With right-to-work, people don't want pay for a union because they don't want to join the union. They don't want to be covered by union rules or union agreements. They just want to be completely left alone by the union.

    2. Re:Bizzare anti-union dumbfuckery by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      With right-to-work, people don't want pay for a union because they don't want to join the union. They don't want to be covered by union rules or union agreements. They just want to be completely left alone by the union.

      Workers want to make less money, earn less benefits, and be fired for any reason or no reason at all, or laid off so the CEO who made money-losing decisions for the company gets to keep his annual double digit increase in salary?

      Right-to-be-fired-for-any-reason laws are about union busting, period.

  58. Re:A Union's Primary Goal Isn't to save Jobs by Troy+from+Montana · · Score: 1

    Maybe but administration costs of the health and pension plans is very high. On the local level the local leader is usually paid a 40hour per week salary at the same wage as the local members. At the national level maybe 200,000/year to the very top official. Not much really considering the best members of the union who work all the overtime usually top out over $90,000/Year or $5,000-$8,000/month for seasonals and tem

  59. The Chinese are hosed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    The Chinese are the big losers in all this change. They had expected to continue using their labor cost advantage to grow the country for the next couple of generations, and it's already over. Foxconn has announced that it is moving to full automation, but it may be too late. As soon as it becomes cheaper to build in the US (using full automation), then China has a transportation cost disadvantage. Of course, that doesn't mean manufacturing jobs are coming back to the US. And unionism may move deeper into the service sector--for better or for worse, we'll be dealing with unions for a long time.

  60. Yep and it was called the Industrial Revolution. by MossStan · · Score: 1

    It happened about one-hundred fifty years ago. How is this news? moss-

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    It is what it is.
  61. Anti-union wankery by Uberbah · · Score: 1

    The fact that unions think they are there to protect jobs, rather than do them, is the root of their problems.

    Except: one of the things you anti-union wankers like to bitch about is union seniority. But with more seniority comes more profit-sharing, which means the better the company does, the more profit-sharing the workers will get.

    Hmmmmm.

    Besides, it's not like you mercenaries give a shit about the company you work for - one bad quarter or a 3% increase in pay to jump ship and you're out the door. You're just there for a paycheck....as opposed to those commie pinko union guys....

  62. Re:Nirvana is when humanity does what we want to d by LordLucless · · Score: 1

    My post had nothing to do with quality of life, which is a rather ephemeral, subjective concept anyway. I was looking at objective facts, and yes, we do know that things like average lifespan, the infant mortality rate, prevalence of disease and (in Western countries anyway) starvation and warfare are all lower than they were pre-industrial.

    Whether those things count as having a better "quality of life" is really up to the individual, although I'd say they'd be significant contributors.

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    Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
  63. The unions go where the food is by RogueWarrior65 · · Score: 1

    It doesn't matter. The union presence in the private sector has been fading for decades. However, the union presence in the public sector has been growing and it seems that they have found an ideal place because taxpayers are not customers and therefore have no freedom to choose a non-union product.

  64. Unions are very relevant. by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

    They provide motivation to outsource labour and replace entire factories full of people with machines.

  65. Robots will steal your jobs... by LightRider · · Score: 1
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    -LR