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Responding to US Gambling Law, Antigua Set To Launch "Pirate" Site
An anonymous reader writes "The Government of Antigua is planning to launch a website selling movies, music and software, without paying U.S. copyright holders. The Caribbean island is taking the unprecedented step because the United States refuses to lift a trade 'blockade' preventing the island from offering Internet gambling services, despite several WTO decisions in Antigua's favor. The country now hopes to recoup some of the lost income through a WTO approved 'warez' site."
Is there any US-loving country besides UK? I wonder ...
if they call the site "Pirates of the Caribbean"
Prepare to get Liberated.
The United States can't really stop Antigua from running a gambling website.
They can however forbid US payment processors from processing online gambling payments. If that is how they're stopping Antigua now, I can't imagine this warez site will be different. Do you think US payment processors will handle these payments?
http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
I'm curious if this will cause the construction of the 'Great Firewall of America'
I wonder if they can have Kim Dotcom move Mega (mega what?) to their country.
I think the USA is gonna be "liberating" real soon now. You HAVE to follow USA's moral rules... If they were allowing child labor, breaking unions, trafficking in slave mined diamonds that would be perfectly fine. This move attacks the USA's "nobility" class that owns the RIGHTS to make things... And making things is profit.
...It also would serve as a major impediment to foreign investment in the Antiguan economy, particularly in high-tech industries,” the U.S. added. Antigua doesn’t appear to be impressed much by these threats and is continuing with its plan.
LOL? Who gives a rat's ass for high-tech in Antigua? I suspect life there is about tourism, boobs and booze!
High-tech to Antigua is like McAfee or Kim Dotcom parking his yacht there!
The country needs something to do with those soldiers coming back from the Afghanistan.
The Caribbean island is taking the unprecedented step because the United States refuses to lift a trade "blockade" preventing the island from offering Internet gambling services, despite several WTO decisions in Antigua's favor. The country now hopes to recoup some of the lost income through a WTO approved 'warez' site.
I'm pretty sure Antigua and Barbuda attended and signed the Berne Convention and have joined WIPO. Furthermore I believe the WTO is fully on board with all that considering their TRIPS agreement. So how in the hell is there such a thing as "a WTO approved 'warez' site" and how on Earth does Antigua think the WIPO is going to view this?
Note: I'm not saying what they're doing is wrong or right, I'm just asking how they are doing it given their history. I mean, sure, this stuff happens all over China but the government pays all the copyright holders lip service about how they're cracking down on it. If the Chinese government profits from it, they don't do so flagrantly like this appears to.
My work here is dung.
The US imposes its economic interests and cultural values on other sovereign nations every day.
The US has de facto jurisdiction almost everywhere on this planet, and there's nothing we can do about it as we don't get a vote, we're not Americans, we're just backward savages who don't understand what democracy and freedom means.
We are allowed to elect our leaders, as long as they are friendly to US interests. As a result we a free to be exploited by the US government and US based corporations in the guise of 'free trade', which in practice means the US government and certain corporations are free to acquire the natural assets of the client states ensuring the local population never sees the benefits.
About to become the biggest tech capital in the world.
Good job guys!
Are they going to be charging for these downloads? Or are they going to be making their money through ads, the way MegaUpload did?
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
It's goatse!!!!!!!!!!!
a middle finger pointing at like the outline of the United States.
Be seeing you...
Or did Jamaica copy of it?
Old pirates, yes, they rob I;
Put my music on computer chips,
Minutes after it came out
Dey had da dvd rips.
But my encryption was made strong
And de tracker updated nightly.
We download in this generation
Triumphantly.
Emancipate yourselves from license slavery;
None but ourselves can free our minds.
Have no fear for music industry,
'Cause none of them can stop the files.
How long shall they make their profits,
While we stand aside and look? Ooh!
We need movies and songs and games
Don't forget e-books
As a former resident of another Caribbean nation, this isn't very surprising outside the fact the government is directly involved.
Where I lived, there was the government "Ministry of Intellectual Property & Copyright" or something very similar, yet opposite the building was a street seller with counterfeit DVD's and CD's for sale.
The fact is in these countries, you pretty much can't buy music or movies legitimately that are otherwise available internationally. There's not enough market to make it worth setting up distribution networks and retailers. So what does get into these countries is often bought at retail in the US, shipped to the country, heavily taxed on import, then 100% markup on the total.
They often don't even bother to make promotional youtube videos for mainstream musicians available in these countries, so why would they bother actually trying to sell to a non-existant, economically fragile country of a couple hundred thousand people, many of whom are in poverty.
The US illegally abuses Antigua over IP, so Antigua abuses back. If the US respected rule of law and such, they'd not have started this mess. What a way to build a country indeed.
Learn to love Alaska
It just makes sense.
Why is Snark Required?
either deliberately misleading or is just plain stupid by saying that IP violation is theft. It is not. Theft is a criminal offense, IP violation is a civil one.
This is a rogue band of corporate fascists who have hijacked us. If you define them as the USA, then even the USA doesn't like the USA. So, speaking as a real American I say, "go for it"!
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
It sounds like a great time to install a pro-US democratic leader. Clearly the people are not being represented here by corrupt Antiguan monarchs and need our help. God bless America.
http://interserver.net/
One of the things the WTO does when a country is found to violate WTO rules on tariffs, and where other methods of resolving the violation have not proven fruitful, is grant the victim special privileges against the aggressor in compensation (WTO members, by virtue of joining the WTO, grant the WTO authority to do this.) Relaxation of obligations under TRIPS is precisely what Antigua is seeking from the WTO in their application for permission to retaliate against the US violations. Antigua is hoping that the WTO
furthermore it's not even a violation... it's the contract - according to the wto treaty.
when repo guys come over, it's not theft or violation.
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
Tell that to Aaron Swartz and Kim Dotcom.
Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
Never mind that old "piracy is not theft" bit. The really funny part is the "government-authorized piracy" line - that sounds like the very definition of copyright in the first place since copyright is purely a government created exception to the natural right to freedom of expression.
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
Understanding the law has part to play in crafting sound bites to sell the boss' position to the people who don't know/care enough to understand it.
I seem to remember some former rebel colonies doing the same thing in their history.
You have pretty much all of your facts wrong. Here's the cliff notes:
Antigua believed the US effort to prevent Antigua-licensed online gambling companies from offering services to US punters was in violation of international trade law. In 2005, a World Trade Organization (WTO) appellate body agreed, and told the US to either shut down its domestic online horse betting operations or allow Antigua equal access. Instead, America chose ‘none of the above’ and in 2007 the WTO ruled Antigua was owed an annual $21m in compensatory damages. If the US refused to pay, the WTO authorized Antigua to collect by other means, such as disregarding US copyrights to a value equal to the annual damages owed.
Collective punishment for US copyright holders. Next they will invite the Mafia to start selling drugs to their citizens. What a way to build a country.
Just like the US continues to collectively punish foreign makers of light trucks worldwide with a 25% tariff, all because 50 years ago France and Germany had unfair restrictions on imports of US chickens.
At least this pirate business makes a little bit sense compared to that.
But what about the struggling artists and authors that are building gaming websites in Antigua? Who the f*ck does the US think they are telling credit-card companies and banks not to allow money to be paid to them? The US continues to overreach by trying to ram its laws down on citizens of the world.
US laws? F*ck 'em. We just laugh at 'em.
MOD INFORMATIVE
Wow, high horse much...
Go and READ the article... I know, it's a crazy thought. What you said is not even remotely what's going on.
Normal people worry me!
US has the right to control gambling within its borders.
They pass a law limiting US based citizens from from accessing these sites and or banks from transferring money to those sites.
While at the same time publicly and officially supporting online gambling, so long as it was within the US. A breach of a treaty the US agreed to.
And you are ok with this?
Yes.
Go back, reread what I just wrote, swapping Antigua for the US and vice-versa. Would you STILL feel the same way if the US declared all Antiguan copyrights fair game, simply because Antigua didn't want some predatory US industry doing business in their country?
The US is quite happy with the "predatory industry" so long as it's US companies preying on US residents. I'd be happy with it going the other way, but it *never* is. I was happy with Allofmp3, who violated no law, Russian, American, or international. But they were shut down because of US bribes and threats. Again, the US bullies internationally and ignores any law they don't like, or makes up ones they wish existed (see Kim Dotcom case falling apart in NZ and the court agreeing that the FBI involvement was illegal).
Why shouldn't Antigua honor US Gambling laws when doing business in the US?
They did. They were shut down anyway. Did you miss that point in the whole thing? They followed the laws a US gambling site would have to operate under (other than being in the US), and the US shut them down anyway.
Learn to love Alaska
That's too funny. USians use the WTO to try and fuck over other countries all the time, then ignore the WTO everytime it does something illegal, like stealing canadian lumber.
Don't complain about syntax, grammar, or spelling. There is no.hell like input on android.
US didn't tell these companies they couldn't pay the gambling purveyors. Just that they couldn't pay them on behalf of US citizens placing bets with US bank accounts.
You seem to continue to side step the issue of the US having the right to control gambling within its borders. Yet you insist Antigua has the right to offer gambling services in foreign countries? I don't get the double standard. If the US offered betting services to French gamblers on french events via france's internet, in violation of french law, wouldn't you be among the first to condemn the US for violating French law?
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And that "Notable residents" entry in wikipedia ! OMG ! I want in ! Where do I sign ?!
Do they need a PC technician ? Will work for food and rum !
...the US government isn't getting paid. The gov't doesn't give a crap about morality...drink, smoke, gamble all you want...as long as the government is getting their share. They will feign a slight interest in morality/safety when it makes them money...try to drive down the block with no seat belt...drive a few miles per hour over an arbitrarily low 'speed limit' and they will happily take your money - then let you continue on with no real punishment so they can take another cut in a few months. To really tell how much they care, try to buy a bottle of alcohol without paying tax on it... they will happily poison you to death!
The fact that the US authorizes gambling in the US is not germane.
The US Authorizes the sale of Cigarettes in the US too. Doesn't mean you can start mail ordering them over the internet.
You conveniently seem to forget that Gambling EVERYWHERE in the US is regulated by the US, Various States, and Various Tribes under the BIA/OIG.
And as such there is some measure of control and taxation, and control of the odds, inspection of hardware, etc.
Antigua does not allow control or regulation by US authorities. Antigua want's to do business in the US, but ignore US law.
Why is that so hard for you to understand?
Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
Have you read the fine print?
Need Mercedes parts ?
What do we do? We send the Marines!
For might makes right,
And till they've seen the light,
They've got to be protected,
All their rights respected,
'Till somebody we like can be elected.
Have gnu, will travel.
Antigua is being taken for a ride just like they were by Stanford. They are following the stupid advice of this lawyer and paying him millions and in then end it's going to do nothing but cost them more.
Out here in the real world it doesn't matter than the WTO allowed this. The fact is that the US can take sovereign action against Antigua even if it violates WTO rules. Antigua only recourse is another WTO hearing and sanction at which point the US enacts more measures.
In the end Antigua will suffer more than they can inflict damage. It would be trivial for the US to bar all US citizens from spending money in Antigua and overnight their economy would collapse as nearly 90% of their tourism is from Americans.
They are being taken in by another Sanford and he'll make millions and sell them down the river.
The WTO Agreement is a treaty. This is what our constitution says about our treaty obligations. "This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding."
So a treaty obligation such adhering to WTO decisions has the equal weight to the Constitution of the United States.
"GET / HTTP/1.0" 200 51230 "-" "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; Setec Astronomy)"
From the article:
“Government-authorized piracy would undermine chances for a settlement that would provide real benefits to Antigua. It also would serve as a major impediment to foreign investment in the Antiguan economy, particularly in high-tech industries,”
Or will several major American copyright holders pay off the Antiguan government in exchange for not selling THEIR media?
People can switch from AmEx to MasterCard, no problem. AmEx, Visa and MasterCard are all American companies. So is PayPal.
Any non-US payment processor (are there any?) will listen to the US government because they more than likely need to do business in the US and are therefore subject to US law. And since this kind of website is illegal just about everywhere, don't expect any non-US governments to stand up to support Antigua, either.
So, who is going to process these payments again?
1c/album and 1c/game.
And 21Million will last a fair old while.
Moreover, since this is licensed from Antigua, these could be licensed FREE TO COPY.
The law of copyright has been suspended and the government of Antigua can give it whatever license they say is the legal requirement.
If the USA wants to play REALLY hard ball, their balls had BETTER be damn hard.
Really.
The world itself won't put up with that kind of shit and you can't handle it.
The only war you've won is the one where you were still part of the British Empire.
Frankly, you're arrogance ensures your incapacity to do your job.
Please don't further use the term USian. It's...idiotic. It solves a problem that doesn't exist and only has disadvantages, not disadvantages. Please, stick with the standard 'American'. It makes things simpler for all. Thanks.
If you ignore ACs because they are anonymous - you're an idiot.
The US Authorizes the sale of Cigarettes in the US too. Doesn't mean you can start mail ordering them over the internet.
But with gambling, that's what is happening. The US tobacco companies can sell over the Internet, but the Antiguan ones cannot. That's an illegal violation of a treaty.
Antigua does not allow control or regulation by US authorities. Antigua want's to do business in the US, but ignore US law.
Why is that so hard for you to understand?
So if Antigua decides to abolish copyright, but only ones held by US companies, why should the US complain what Antigua does in Antigua with Antiguan law?
Learn to love Alaska
I seem to remember some former rebel colonies doing the same thing in their history.
That was long ago, in a galaxy far, far away. Or was that a Fairlane? Those classic Fords trip me up sometimes. Anyways, that was then, this is now, and the former pirates in the US are now the ones screaming for blood.
Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
very soon. Get ready.
They may even have weapons of mass destruction. I can see mushroom clouds.
In the first paragraph this quote says:
either deliberately misleading or is just plain stupid by saying that IP violation is theft. It is not. Theft is a criminal offense, IP violation is a civil one.
I take it you haven't read the No Electronic Theft Act? (Yes, Theft is right there in the title). IP violation can be a criminal offense in the US
But the Antiguans also belong to North America (via the Carribean/West Indies), so aren't they Americans too...?
Re read your own quote.
"Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding."
Treaties do not supersede the US Constitution. At best only state constitutions.
The constitution does not give foreign powers the right to override our own constitution. That would be totally stupid.
This is why reading is fundamental. Please stay in school.
Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
That would indeed be quite an accident since it would involve firing the missile into an alternate reality. There is no presidential compound: Antigua is ruled by the Queen and Buckingham palace probably has missile defences. However this does mean you already have some experience in this sort of revolution but this time around you'd be playing the part of the French.....bonne chance with that.
No thanks. I'm a citizen of two american countries, neither of which are fond of being associated with the USA. There is no disadvantage for a specific term for a country of people. Unless you're a USian, of course, I hear they have problems with correct labels. How long have they been calling Native Americans Indians again?
Don't complain about syntax, grammar, or spelling. There is no.hell like input on android.
You can call Antiguans whatever you want, but it still won't make USian a valid term.
Antigua want's to do business in the US, but ignore US law.
No Antigua wants to let US residents to business in Antigua. Modern technology lets them do this without physically having to go there so the US passed a law which restricted trade with Antigua i.e. prevented its citizens from contacting Antigua and doing business there instead forcing them to do it in the US.
It's no different than say the EU passing a law to make it illegal for EU companies to purchase software written in the US because the US company that wrote the software did not allow control or regulation by EU authorities despite it being physically located in the US. The EU could certainly do this but it would be a clear violation of its promise to keep its markets open to US trade - it would be effectively implementing a significant trade barrier.
The constitution does not give foreign powers the right to override our own constitution. That would be totally stupid.
This is why reading is fundamental. Please stay in school.
Forgive me the colloquialism, but... LOL!
I was about to post the same thing. Thanks for covering it.
"GET / HTTP/1.0" 200 51230 "-" "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; Setec Astronomy)"
Proceed fucking them back signed the WTO.
No it gives the President with the approval of 2/3rds of the U.S. Senate the power to override our Constitution and the laws of the individual states. Article II section 2 of the US constitution defines the powers of the president and says "He shall have Power, by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, to make Treaties, provided two thirds of the Senators present concur."
"GET / HTTP/1.0" 200 51230 "-" "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; Setec Astronomy)"
How can that be right. That would mean the US can pass constitutional amendments essentially through the creation of a treaty. Isn't it the president that can make those? That would essentially turn the US into a dictatorship as all it takes is a “treaty” with another nation to dictate “law” the equals the constitution. You could repeal indirectly constitutional amendments. Want to re-instate slavery? Just pass make a treaty which requires less than two third vote. You might be right... but I've been utterly mislead. Then again- that wouldn't be the first time the government has lied to me about how it works.
Actually google provides a much better definition...
So if we read the applicable term from the constitution,
"and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding"
This is what it would say written in modern English...
"The Constitution, the Laws of the United States, and our International Treaty Obligations are the supreme law of the land. Judges are required to honor our treaty obligations; in spite of anything the Constitution or laws of any state may say to the contrary."
"GET / HTTP/1.0" 200 51230 "-" "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; Setec Astronomy)"
Absolutely NOT.
Treaties can not override our constitution, nor can congress override or amend the constitutional without approval of the states.
http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/usconstitution/a/constamend.htm
The supremacy clause of the constitution places it as the supreme law of the land, and no law or treaty can over-ride it.
http://www.robertwelchuniversity.org/Treaties%20and%20the%20Constitution-final.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reid_v._Covert
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Countries don't have rights; individuals do. People have a right to make whatever exchanges, including bets, that they want, wherever they are, to wherever the person offering the service is located. That right may be infringed, as the US does, but there is hardly a right to do harm to peaceful people conducting voluntary exchange.
So are the purchasers still pirates? Just guaranteed (hopefully) a high quality, virus free experience?
I assume the US would still treat any of its citizens who purchase these as pirates, but what about Canada or the UK?
Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
Right, receiving IP without paying for it is not theft. It's actually just fraud. Which is both a criminal offense and a civil one.
Actual damages would be no greater than the expected wholesale price of a lawfully made copy, possibly less. I'm not aware of anything in the Berne Convention resembling the U.S. scheme of statutory damages for infringement of copyright in works whose copyright is registered with the Copyright Office, especially because Berne has no concept of copyright registration.
Nice Romantic Idea.
Now you just need to find on single square foot of planet Earth where this is true, move there, and be happy in your little prison away from the rest of us.
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we went to see the show, my objections notwithstanding
I still can't stop laughing with IceBike's "that would be stupid" and "please stay in school" statements... absolutely classic. Perfect example of how strong beliefs can alter one's perception of reality.
You seem to continue to side step the issue of the US having the right to control gambling within its borders.
You seem to be ignorant of the fact that the US agreed to abide by certain rules for governing international trade. The US eagerly signed the WTO treaty, a binding contract between nations defining the rules of international trade. The US broke the terms of the contract in order to protect it's domestic gambling industry, this disadvantages all other signatories to the treaty who offer international gambling (including the UK and other staunch allies). Antigua is the only one with the balls to pursue the issue with the umpire. The fact that the WTO agreed with them indicates the WTO is now more than just a lapdog of the US state department.
If the US regrets what it agreed to when it joined the WTO it can always do the honorable thing and pull out of the organisation (that it worked hard to establish). Instead they show themselves to be complete hypocrites by studiously ignoring adverse rulings and vigously enforcing benificial rulings.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
If you can't keep a promise because it confilcts with the constitution then don't make the promise in the first place, or withdraw from the club and retain your honour. Cherry-picking the umpire's decisions is at best hypocritical, at worst it fucks up the game for all players.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
Yes, in effect treaties are high priority laws in the US of A.
That is why any such foreign treaty has to be approved by the Senate and the President.
The US copyright industry cannot stand for this - even if the damage is actually minimal, it'll further establish a culture of infringement that could destroy them in the long term. The obvious solution is for them to make another attempt at SOPA, this time by utilising their weasel powers to the fullest - expect it to be passed as a rider on an unrelated act, or introduced on a day when most of congress is busy with other matters. Then they can simply block the site at the border.
This whole thing might be just a bargining ploy, though. The US government owes them money, but has no incentive to pay, and doing so would be quite embarassing for a number of politicians who run with 'internet gambling ruins families' as part of their platform. Now Antigua has an 'or else' they can use to demand what they are owed.
Even according to the NET act, copyright infringement isn't theft. The term has just been misapplied to copyright infringement so many times that it has become - quite intentionally - a recognised label in common use even if not legally accurate.
That sentence is obviously talking about the supremacy over STATE constitutions, along with state laws. (Constitution or laws) X (of any state)...."Judges in every State".
Government-authorized piracy. Can we just stretch the language a little further and call it privateering?
contemplating “government-authorized piracy”
If it's government authorized, then they're not pirates, they're privateers.
You seem to think that Antigua can't set their copyright law within their borders. They can, and the only reason they don't is because of international treaties that have been shoved down their throat which threaten trade sanctions. Since the US doesn't want to respect those same kinds of treaties, Antigua is not going to respect them either.
If a nation decides they don't want to give authors handouts, that's their own damn business. That being thugs about has become the norm doesn't make it okay.
This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
If there exists an ambiguity, use US-American(s).
They are high priority, but that doesn't mean they can override the constituion. For example, the URAA including retroactively pulling works out of the public domain and was the implementation of an international treaty. Congress doesn't have the authority to pass such an act, even if it's part of a treaty. Treaties do no allow Congress to expand beyond their enumerated powers.
This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
Don't blur contexts, please. American comes from United States of America, not North America. And, no, Caribbean != North America.
Howdy howdy howdy
Individuals only possess those rights which are expressly granted to them by their governing state. Those rights usually come with exceptions, too. That's how it works here in reality.
Howdy howdy howdy
We all know here in Aus that Dingoes steal babies, not bats. Bloody drongo's!
So, what do you call all the americans who aren't in the US?
You're a temporary arrangement of matter sliding towards oblivion in a cold, uncaring universe
Wrong. "American" refers to anyone from the Americas, not someone from the United States of America.
You seem to continue to side step the issue of the US having the right to control gambling within its borders
No. The US is perfectly free to ban gambling. What they are not free to do, is permit gambling when run by companies in the US, but ban it when run by companies outside the US. That is no different from imposing a ban or levy on any other commodity when not produced domestically and places the US in violation of free trade treaties (which have, for the most part, been of significant net benefit to the USA). If another WTO member imposed an import tariff on some US commodity, then the US would complain to the WTO and expect a fine. Antigua complained to the WTO and a $21m/year fine was imposed on the USA unless they either ban gambling internally, or permit other companies from other countries to compete on an equal footing. They refused to pay, so the WTO authorised collection by other means.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
we could be quite certain the Israelis and Brits would get beat up with us
You are joking right?
You do realise that in 2001, 75% of the British public did not want to be part of the Afghan war.
http://www.globalpolicy.org/component/content/article/154/26553.htm1
That 1 Million people (1 in 60 of the population of the country) went to London to protest against the 2003 invasion of Iraq.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/15_February_2003_anti-war_protest
That parliament only voted for war because Tony Blair (subsequently one of the most vilified prime ministers in modern times) outright lied to parliament.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodgey_Dossier
Sorry to bust your bubble.... but Britain & the rest of Europe isn't prepared to unilaterally support the US in war as you seem to believe. Thankfully, support for such wars is very much lacking by the majority of educated, intelligent Americans in your own country too.
Anyone quoted by a reporter knows how little they understand
Don't believe what you read is the truth.
Hmmm
All of the above may indeed be correct, however what the UK People support and what the Politicians approve are two entirely different things.
p>You seem to continue to side step the issue of the US having the right to control gambling within its borders.
You seem to continue to side step the issue of the US having agreed to offer equal treatment to overseas trading partners as to its own traders in certain areas.
Got them moderator blues I blieve I walk out the do', With these mod-points I been gettin', I 'most never post no mo'
Fine. But then the US is still in breach of the treaty and owes compensation to the frozen-out treaty partners.
Got them moderator blues I blieve I walk out the do', With these mod-points I been gettin', I 'most never post no mo'
Bullshit!
Bullshit!
There is a lot of tight-assed squabbling in the comments about who is the holier.... But hell, any country leaning on the hells kitchen/ dogs breakfast which is current US copyright law gets my support. This whole lawyer sustaining, corporate-intellectual-property-is-US-property bullshit has to be stopped... So go Antigua - and thanks for soothing my inner anarchist...
Yes, the title of a bill is certainly indiciative of what it really does or means. The fact that 'theft' is in the title is, if anything, evidence that it's not theft because the titles of acts are generally political posturing that has nothing to do with the law itself. Copyright infringement is not theft technically, legally, or morally, and this isn't even copyright infringement since it's legal.
This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
so you're saying that antigua needs to follow state, tribal laws, even though it isn't in those states.
gambling institutions in one state don't need to follow laws from other states.
antigua can't be claimed to be subject to those laws,
yet the US wants to treat it as if it is subject to some vague agglomeration of them, without proving that jurisdiction.
if the US position was held up, then the WTO has no force whatsoever,
because any country can let it's provinces/states/kindergartens write their own local laws,
and then require foreign trade partners to follow each and every one of those laws, ignoring the details of actual jurisdiction.
if the US wants to institute nation-wide federal gambling laws, it can do so, and those apply to antigua.
unless it does so, the federal government cannot uniquely persecute antiguan business on the basis of no federal law, and in violation of WTO treaty.
what the fuck are you smoking that makes you think it's fraud? Fraud involves deception, so unless one party was confused about who or what they were dealing with, no fraud has occurred.
Also, nobody is 'receiving IP.' You receive a copy. 'Receiving IP' would be a transfer of a copyright, patent, or trademark.
This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
I will use this service just so I can refer to myself as a "music privateer".
Antigua was owed an annual $21m in compensatory damages. If the US refused to pay, the WTO authorized Antigua to collect by other means, such as disregarding US copyrights to a value equal to the annual damages owed.
By MPAA/RIAA maths, that's probably 1 Katy Perry album and an episode of Lost.
(1.21 gigawatts) / (88 miles per hour) = 30 757 874 newtons
Oh, now I SO want an official Antiguan Letter of marque
Heck, I'll even pay for it.
People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
Look for upcoming Hollywood action movies to feature bad guys from Antigua now.
What, the US isn't America? Next thing you'll be telling me is that there are unamericans who have a brain!
Right, there's only the one meaning and Wikipedia doesn't need to have the following to go through the other uses: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_(disambiguation)/
You're a temporary arrangement of matter sliding towards oblivion in a cold, uncaring universe
That is exactly why we need USians, because USians immediately think that American refers to them, and them alone.
Granted there are a lot of cables going every which way over there. But a lot of the connectivity seems to go via British holdings up to Miami eventually. Or is Venezuela a connectivity powerhouse I didn't know about? I don't see them using their troposphere scattering to Europe but then again, maybe they will just run a shell game on mega? The links are:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECFS_(cable_system)
http://www.submarinecablemap.com/
http://www.indexmundi.com/antigua_and_barbuda/telephone_system.html
http://www.globalcaribbean.net/pages/en/network-system/route-description.php?lang=EN
Yeah, deception. The deception of the IP owner saying "I'm selling these MP3's here", and you going in and saying "I'll take your MP3, but I'm not going to give you any money for it". It's the same as non-payment of a dentist bill. You're not taking away the dentist's ability to serve other patients; you're depriving him of the money that his services implicitly require.
That's the thing about courts - as arbiters of the law, they define it and may override it. It's that whole checks and balances thing...but on an international scale. It's not as if the IP players in the US are some insignificant party with no say in government affairs. Fuck, they practically write the laws our congress passes. The US may not give a shit about what the WTO rules, but if interests within the US do then things will happen.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
"That's an illegal violation of a treaty."
I think violation implies something illegal by itself.
I wouldn't say that treaties are equal in weight any more than laws are equal in weight (also mentioned in that clause). However, treaties clearly have the force of law which is the whole point.
In any case, the whole point of treaties is mutual agreement - it is bad policy to make a treaty and then violate it, because then nobody wants to make treaties with you. If you sign a bad treaty then announce your intent to back out and do so in some kind of reasonable way (giving up the benefits as well as the responsibilities) and it will probably be taken better than simply ignoring the bits you don't like.
I lived in Central & South America for a while and often heard this claim. However, I would like to point out that the USA is the ONLY country with America in its name.
When someone calls themselves American, everyone knows which country they are referring to, although there may be grumbling at the gringo for being arrogant.
Some people die at 25 and aren't buried until 75. -Benjamin Franklin
Allow the US to screw them over as much as possible, because the US can possibly screw them over even more.
Under Hollywood Accounting rules, Antigua would need to set up a store that sells Imaginary Property (IP). Then they would need to set up several other organizations that bill the store various "fees". Until the store eventually turns a profit, that $21 Million that Antigua is owed cannot be repaid. I hope those "fees" won't get too high. I mean, it could take Billions of dollars in sales in order to eventually turn $21 Million in profit. Heck, the Star Wars movies from the 1970's still are not profitable!. So poor Antigua may never get the $21 Million that the WTO says it is owed.
I'll see your senator, and I'll raise you two judges.
Responding to recent news, thousands of internet entrepreneurs have left the United States to start new businesses in Antigua.
No trees were killed to send this message, but a great number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
If the ban remains, Indonesia could impose retaliatory duties on the U.S. exports equal to the amount of trade it has lost, which one analyst estimated at about $16 million per year. The United States could also comply by offering Indonesia new trade concessions, as it has done in some other disputes where Congress was unwilling to change the law.
Maybe Indonesia could get with Antigua and they could pool their resources on this warez site.
You'd think that, but them so many here claim that "international law" can't trump domestic law because we are sovereign, so violating a treaty isn't "illegal".
Learn to love Alaska
Because Buccaneers was the term used for government-sanctioned pirates back in the days of flying Jolly Rogers and lots of swashbuckling over fair maidens on sandy beaches with hidden treasures and parrots.
The US does not BAN gambling. It regulates it, Taxes it, and restricts it to certain areas.
Antigua wants to avoid regulation, pay no taxes, and push gambling to areas where it is not allowed.
Why does Antigua get to ignore US laws? Would you be ok with the US companies choosing to ignore laws in other countries and do as they wish? (like Google for instance?)
Or would you be first in line to complain loudly?
I'm betting you'd the the loudest complainer.
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we could be quite certain the Israelis and Brits would get beat up with us
You are joking right? You do realise that in 2001, 75% of the British public did not want to be part of the Afghan war. http://www.globalpolicy.org/component/content/article/154/26553.htm1
From your linked article:
The biggest poll of world opinion was carried out by Gallup International in 37 countries in late September (Gallup International 2001). It found that apart from the US, Israel and India a majority of people in every country surveyed preferred extradition and trial of suspects to a US attack.
This was what we wanted as well. Then the Taliban told us to go fuck ourselves. Then we blew the shit out of them. Every country in the world either got behind us or was at least smart enough to get out of the way of the injured, rabid, bulldog that Afghanistan had just poked with a stick.
I'm with you in that Iraq was unjustified and stupid and nobody had any business in that mess (least of all the U.S.), and you can argue that Afghanistan has been poorly managed, but that initial invasion was inevitable and pretty thoroughly justified.
To connect up with a more current possibility - if North Korea were to do something as thoroughly boneheaded as the launch and detonate a nuclear weapon at the western seaboard of the United States I am absolutely certain that Britain, Israel, and probably the majority of the free world would jump on board with an invasion. Heck, if NK was that utterly stupid, China would probably bitch slap them for it.
No one else on either American continent calls themselves "Americans".
Residents of "The United States of Mexico" are called "Mexicans",
Residents of "Canada" are called "Canadians"
Residents of "Brazil" are called "Brazilians"
Residents of "Peru" are called "Peruvians"
residents of "Ecuador" are called "Ecuadorians"
etc.
It's really not that hard to understand that residents of "The United States of America" are called "Americans".
You almost translated it correctly.
Proper English interpretation would be
" in spite of anything the Constitution of any state, or the laws of any state, may say to the contrary".
The word Constitution in the quote referred to the STATE Constitutions, not the Federal Constitution.
It is clear the founders used this language to apply to STATE Constitutions, not the Federal Constitution.
There were several states that had created treaties with foreign powers as of the date the US Constitution was written,
and several states granted themselves the power to do this.
State-made pacts often conflicted with peace and trade treaties wanted by the Confederation
Congress for the benefit of all thirteen states, making it hard for Congress to consummate better
agreements with other nations. This also led to fierce contention between the states in their effort
to monopolize the import of goods from Europe and the Indian tribes.
The Confederation Congress, under the Articles of Confederation, frequently attempted to nullify state-made treaties in the state courts (there were no federal courts). But as might be expected, the state judges ruled inevitably in favor of their own states, pursuant to the state laws and constitutions.
This language in the Supremacy clause merely put the states on notice that the US Constitution would over-ride their
state constitutions with regard to international treaties.
During the ratifying debates, James Madison answered questions regarding the new national
charter and commented on the extent of the treaty-making power under Article VI:
“I do not conceive that power is given to the President and Senate to dismember the
empire, or to alienate any great, essential right. I do not think the whole legislative
authority have this power. The exercise of the power must be consistent with the object of
its delegation.”
Thomas Jefferson: “I say the same as to the opinion of those who consider the grant of treatymaking to be boundless. If it is, then we have no Constitution.”
Reid v. Covert, 354 U.S. 1 (1957), was a landmark United States Supreme Court case in which the Court once and for all ruled that the Constitution supersedes international treaties ratified by the United States Senate.
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Perhaps you should have stayed in school too. You seem to have a problem parsing the English language.
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At last, someone who can actually READ.
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Nope.
Nothing in the treated required signatories to re-write their fundamental charters of existence.
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The answer is simple, tax all online gambling, U.S. sites or international. 50% of the take would stop most online gambling in the U.S. If you are so hooked on the gambling "bug", then you must go to a physical gambling site, either a casino or your local 7-Eleven for lotto tickets or other forms of gambling. This would at least make it harder for the average person to gamble the family into the poorhouse. When I say "50% of the take" I mean the profit of those running the online sites, not the winnings of the poor schmucks who still believe they have a chance in hell of making it big gambling. Sure, sure, I know, the a-holes running the gambling sites would just lower the "chances" of winning, but, this might just be a good wake-up-call to those who aren't quite totally hooked on gambling to curtail their interests. I myself have done a little gambling at casinos and the odd lottery ticket or "scratcher", but, it didn't take me long to realize the incredibly long odds of ever coming out ahead or even breaking even. My advice is; take your gambling money and go do something fun like parachute from a plane, or some similar adrenaline producing event where you actually do see a profit for your hard-earned money!
My karma is bad. Don't get too close!!!
No. American 99% of the time refers to someone from the USA. If it is being used in the context of people from the two continents, context will make that apparent.
If you ignore ACs because they are anonymous - you're an idiot.
I'm not American. Just someone smart enough to see how stupid USian is.
If you ignore ACs because they are anonymous - you're an idiot.
Sigh. The people who always use the stupid term are always convinced it makes some kind of sense, and don't tend to listen to reason. I've lived in Canada, the USA, Nicaragua, Costa Rica and Colombia, in each place for at least 1 year. I am originally from Australia.
USian makes no sense. The USA is the only country with America in it's name. If you are referring to people from the two continents, context will make that apparent. Invent a new, lame, word to solve a non existent problem, is, to reiterate, idiotic.
If you ignore ACs because they are anonymous - you're an idiot.
Laws say what they mean, If they meant State Constitutions they would have said state constitutions. Instead they said "the Constitution." What you said had merit only if they said "their Constitutions".
"GET / HTTP/1.0" 200 51230 "-" "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; Setec Astronomy)"
Nice once, icekike.
You get your arse handed to you for your unbelievable arrogance and your response is...
...silence
You fucking condescending cunt.
Sorry son, you are just wrong. The supreme court settled this issue a long time ago.
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You're missing the point. If you don't rewrite your fundamental charters of existence, and the treaty requires a fundamental rewrite of your charters of existence, then you are in breach of the treaty. If you are in breach of the treaty, you will have to make reparations, which either means a rewrite of your fundamental charters of existence or financial compensation.
The USA voluntarily agreed to sign the treaty -- no-one forced it to.
Got them moderator blues I blieve I walk out the do', With these mod-points I been gettin', I 'most never post no mo'
Would you be ok with the US companies choosing to ignore laws in other countries and do as they wish? (like Google for instance?)
A more accurate analogy would be if Google offered to obey the law in China, but instead China decided to block it entirely and only permit Baidu to operate, the WTO then required China to either permit Google to operate if they obeyed the law, and China kept the block.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
OK, so it looks like there are several different and entirely valid ways of parsing this isolated sentence:
(A) ((any Thing in the Constitution) or (Laws of any State to the Contrary)) notwithstanding.
(B) ((any Thing in the Constitution) or (Laws of any State)) to the Contrary notwithstanding.
(C) (((any Thing in the Constitution) or (Laws)) of any State) to the Contrary notwithstanding.
(D) (any Thing in (the Constitution or Laws) of any State) to the Contrary notwithstanding.
(A) and (B) are pretty similar in meaning, but (C) and (D) are entirely different. In contemporary English, "or" commonly doesn't have a special precedence, and using this sentence to mean (C) or (D) would arguably be considered poor form (or actually, using the sentence at all would be poor form because it's terribly ambiguous). However, based on the historical context provided by the document you brought in, I have to concede that D must be the correct interpretation after all. But "staying in school" wouldn't tell you that, unless by "staying in school" you mean "specializing in the interpretation of historic documents".
And... it seems to be subject of debate even among people who did specialize in the interpretation of constitutional law: http://icon.oxfordjournals.org/content/10/1/242.abstract /. debate have asserted so far).
This is definitely a question far beyond the parsing the English language (as both sides in this
But to get back on subject: let's say the bottom line is that one sector of the US economy (the movies, music and software industry) will (allegedly) suffer because another sector (gambling - yes even if you consider it government-controlled, it's still a sector of the economy) successfully lobbied lawmakers into violating a WTO treaty. Greedy people doing stupid stuff.
In the original constitution, all reference to the Constitution itself were in the form "this Constitution" or " the Constitution of the United States". It wasn't referred to as "THE Constitution " until after it was ratified, where several amendments started to use that form. (Which is arguably more ambiguous, since each state also had constitutions.
The application of algebraic style parsing of sentences to writing is a relatively new concept, and doesn't reflect the rules of English prior to about 1900.
Any text book that explains the Constitution doesn't fall into this misunderstanding. This was first explained to me in the 9th grade. Hence the advice to stay in school.
Perhaps schools have slipped substantially since then.
Still, even the School of Google doesn't get the interpretation of the establishment Clause wrong.
There are only a few ways to amend the Constitution, and signing a treaty isn't one of them.
That fact alone should have been the tipoff.
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According to the NET act, copyright infringement is a criminal offense in some cases which is what I was replying to.
I'm not arguing whether or not it is theft, but the contents of the act do make it criminal which the parent argues otherwise. I was additionally simply pointing out that while he argues it is not Theft simply because it is not a criminal offense, the very bill that does make it a criminal offense contains Theft in the title
You're right there. The NET act makes copyright a criminal offence if done for profit, but defines that profit in such a broad manner that almost anything qualifies.
Not everyone has been schooled in the USA, you insensitive clod!
I'm glad you posted this. I certainly didn't mean to exclude other North Americans but in those contexts, they could probably also be referred to as something else (for instance, Canadian vs America or Chilean vs American). Call an American (from the US) a USian and you'll get a stupid look back.
Also, link fix: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_(disambiguation)
Howdy howdy howdy