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Massive Data Leak Reveals How the Ultra Rich Hide Their Wealth
bshell writes "According to the CBC, there was a massive leak of 'files containing information on over 120,000 offshore entities — including shell corporations and legal structures known as trusts — involving people in over 170 countries. The leak amounts to 260 gigabytes of data, or 162 times larger than the U.S. State Department cables published by WikiLeaks in 2010...In many cases, the leaked documents expose insider details of how agents would incorporate companies in Caribbean and South Pacific micro-states on behalf of wealthy clients, then assign front people called "nominees" to serve, on paper, as directors and shareholders for the corporations — disguising the companies' true owners.' Makes a good read and there are some good interactive components. Perhaps Slashdot readers can figure out how the source of the leak, the D.C.-based International Consortium of Investigative Journalists got their hands on this data."
this cannot end well.
Self entitled wealthy bastards go to great lengths to avoid paying taxes. Nobody at all is surprised.
If you've done nothing wrong you've got nothing to hide.
We have no problem asking service men and women to sacrifice time with their families, their personal well being and their lives...all under the banner of patriotism. Yet when we ask the wealthy to sacrifice for their country in the form of simply paying their taxes they hide it in off shore accounts and attack those who question this as "redistributors".
Blow the whistle and blow it loud on these cringing cowards.
http://www.ted.com/talks/lawrence_lessig_we_the_people_and_the_republic_we_must_reclaim.html
In this case I'd have to say, "who care how they got their hands on this data" and hope they do more work like this.
Eat the rich.
Is there potential legal repercussion for reading these documents? I remember the Wikileaks files were off limits because they were still classified, and anyone reading them would be potentially in breach of their clearance. Would the person who released these be held responsible for any judicial action? Or just the person who obtained them?
None of us know everything. Therefore we're all naïve.
Given that there are interoffice emails in the stream, that implies that someone was able to access:
1. the mail server archive/backup
2. the mail server's scrubber (whatever they call the thing that scans email for sensitive info).
Do they all share a mailhost or something like that?
You'd think a guy moving his accounts offshore for the tax break had just been awarded the Medal of Honor! It's a badge of honor to a lot of people that you avoid paying taxes by any means necessary.
I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
The files contain information on over 120,000 offshore entities — including shell corporations and legal structures known as trusts — involving people in over 170 countries.
Oh, no no no, tax evasion for the ultra rich that can play international games isn't the reason the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. No! From Forbes' response to the viral video "Wealth Inequality in America" they say:
Look — we’re moving into the opening years of an economic revolution. The floods of Big Data pouring from the Internet and related technologies are washing away the foundational reasons for the existence of several of our most critical – and comforting – societal structures, potentially changing forever the very notion of what a company is, what a job is, what a brand is, what an educational degree means, and how we’ll work and govern and care for ourselves while attempting to live long and prosper. Almost every part of our existence is being restructured, and quickly, by the stunning power of nearly infinite information.
Don't you see? It's not tax evasion or unfair taxation, it's just the magical power of the internet. Stop asking questions and demanding an equal opportunity to skirt income laws! It's "Big Data" that's changing things rapidly and excitingly. Stop fighting the Economic Revolution!
What an absolute crock of shit.
My work here is dung.
so.... Occupy Wallstreet is still just a bunch of lazy malcontent college hippies?
Free society is incompatible with individuals wielding thousands or millions of times more unchecked power than others.
Nice and all to see the info come out but seriously, with that much money and that many wealthy, influential people involved, what is going to happen with this information? Nothing. A couple of hippies are going to protest against the 1% thingy while texting from their iPhone 5, be discredited, a couple of journalists are going to get vanished, the whole thing will get swept under the rug of the media coverage of an imminent war with North Korea. Problem solved. Damned i'm too young to be this jadded
Perhaps Slashdot readers can figure out how the source of the leak, the D.C.-based International Consortium of Investigative Journalists got their hands on this data.
The story on the CBC national news last night suggested that it was snail-mailed anonymously on a portable hard drive to a DC based journalist. This doesn't explain where the data ultimately came from, but does explain how the ICIJ came to have it.
The husband of a Senator has been named in the leak thus far (who is a high profile class action lawyer), and his Senator wife was named as the beneficiary of the accounts. This is the same Senate that had a member (Patrick Brazeau) charged with both sexual and vanilla assault while also under investigation for expenses claimed. While we Canadians sat around scratching our heads about how to get rid of the lifetime appointed Senators, he then had the audacity to April Fools tweet his resignation, only to thumb his nose at us the next day. I'm thinking about sharpening the tines on my pitchfork right now...this adds fuel to the fire.
Whoever got this should be considered a hero. Let's hope they keep going.
I wonder who collected these records in the first place? Either it's all from the same business or someone collected it across many such businesses. In that latter case, it could be a government spy agency with resources or a particularly powerful and well organized blackmailer.
100,000 shell companies over thirty years is significant but not, I think, a large share of the overall market. I gather that these sorts of businesses process millions of new shell companies a year.
It'll be interesting to see who gets caught as a result.
I've been looking for a walkthrough for hiding my wealth in low-tax countries. The eHow article wasn't cutting it. I'm thinking of sending my gazillion dollars to the Bahamas.
sudo make me a sandwich
Relationship is a net loss?
I guess you don't walk on sidewalks, drive on roads, use public infrastructure or enjoy clean water.
electricity? phones?
mmm hmmmm....
Well yes, we've always known that they do, but now we have some of their names, along with where the money is and how it got there, and in some cases, at least, it's pretty clear that some nations' domestic taxation and monetary laws were violated in the process of moving money to offshore accounts. With that information, the taxation authorities of a number of sovereign states can either a. swoop in and seize the money from offshore accounts or b. simply seize domestic assets to make up for the taxes owed.
Of course, few if any taxation authorities will do that, because, at the end of the day, most of them probably already had the information, but are either complicit or too cowed to move in.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
The biggest question I have, now that the general public is also aware of how the ultra rich "hide" their money (and oftentimes to avoid taxation):
What are the politicians going to do to address these loopholes?
They may just realise that if they tried that, they'd be going up against an army of the highest-paid lawyers in the world. The case could drag on for a decade.
Want to know how the super wealthy "hide" their money in off shore accounts? Call an off shore bank and ask? They'll be happy to tell you. For a couple hundred bucks they'll even set up the company for you and open an account.
Problem is, you'll need to get money into your account somehow. To do so will take a wire transfer that the IRS will be notified about. Going the other direction would also take a wire transfer, that the IRS will be notified about.
Here's a radio show about it:
http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2012/07/27/157499893/episode-390-we-set-up-an-offshore-company-in-a-tax-haven
Also, it doesn't let you magically hide money from the IRS like most people think:
http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2012/09/18/161358307/episode-403-what-can-we-do-with-our-shell-companies
My Other Computer Is A Data General Nova III.
If you make less than $40k your relationship with the government is a big gain for you.
Don't forget the part about not getting murdered for your wallet by the local thugs.
Sounds great! Where do *I* sign up?
That only works until somebody like Castro (or Chavez) comes along and locks the doors to all the island banks.... And TAKES all their stashed money! Hence the REAL reason the USA dislikes him so much.
The fact that it's occurring is not a surprise to anyone.
What we have here is a full on name and shame. Now things get interesting.
This signature is false.
Imagined class warfare?
As Warren Buffet stated âoeThereâ(TM)s class warfare, all right, but itâ(TM)s my class, the rich class, thatâ(TM)s making war, and weâ(TM)re winning.â
You know who pits Americans against each other? The richest few. They want you feeling superior to those who make a little less than you, lest you both realize you should fight together to improve your station in life.
Get their hands on this data to then make a boycott app for the smartphones so we know who to not do business with.
If you spent your time working productively, instead of wasting it boycotting productive people, maybe you'd make some money yourself.
Shakespeare had a solution for that.
Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
... I for one would like to see whether any of the politicians from my country are implicated. We're going through our 13th General Elections, and it would be nice to see if the person I'm voting for is involved. With scant media coverage on these sort of things - the local media is heavily controlled by the ruling government - we over here tend to have to rely on other alternative sources for exposes.
The Wknd Sessions - Malaysian and South East Asia independent music
Having money in offshore accounts isn't illegal in Canada. You do have to declare the existence of any offshore assets greater than $100.000? (I think) and you have to declare any earnings on that money as income. Of course if you fail to do either of those 2 things you have committed a crime and Revenue Canada will slice and dice you. Not all of this money is being hidden from the taxman, I bet that a lot of it is assets being concealed from spouses in divorce cases, creditors in bankruptcy and so forth. This is going to reverberate through the rich and politically connected upper crust for years.
None of them can see the clouds; The polished wings don't care.
According to the report I just heard on the BBC World News, estimates place the total value of these hidden assets around $32 trillion.
"I zero-index my hamsters" - Willtor (147206)
As I said, they are cowed. If they accepted the cases could drag on for years, and pursued them against a substantial fraction of super-rich tax evaders, the ultimate effect would to chill the desire to evade taxes. It would cost significant amounts of money to begin with, but we're talking about hundreds of billions of dollars apparently nestled in offshore accounts here, so I think the prize is worth the effort. That some crimes are tough to prosecute doesn't mean they shouldn't be prosecuted.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
You are sadly mistaken if you think the majority of my tax dollars fund infrastructure.
Regarding the federal budget from Wikipedia:
(+58.6%) – Unemployment/Welfare/Other mandatory spending
(+18.0%) – Interest on National Debt
Note of that gives me a telephone, a sidewalk or electricity. BTW, I PAY, and pay alot
for my phone and my electricity.
Wake up, the money you pay in taxes is largely stolen, if you do pay, and you get very
little benefit. You can keep your benefits, I'll meet my own needs, thanks.
How's that? The Republicans have done/are doing everything in their power to dismantle all government assistance programs. The path is now clearly every man for himself and you certainly can't count on the government to help you in the long term. If you make less than $40k a year I can only hope that you live in one of the poorer states. Otherwise good luck with healthcare, paying for your children's education, and saving for retirement.
The middle class is dead. Long live the middle class...
If you wanna get rich, you know that payback is a bitch
More importantly, who keeps the tens of thousands of employees from stealing from your companies. Who keeps all those employees safely returning to work each day??
That was the KEY vision Henry Ford had... That you couldn't run a company off the least cost labor and have everybody AROUND your employees live in shit. His high wages were to keep more productive employees... And force them to pull up the other people around them... Very Victorian values.
I'd say its more like $100k while raising kids. I pay some taxes at almost double that, but deductions knock it right back down.
The Republicans have not yet abolished basic government services.
You'd see that they talk about some of the ways that you can indeed sneak the money back in. Illegal, but easy to do.
Until we get a transnational regulatory authority with teeth, the wealthy will simply use nations as convenient operating environments to skirt environmental regulation, labor laws, taxes or any other inconvenient regulation. Wealth is political power. Unelected, frequently dangerous political power. We either choose to control it, globally, or we will continue to be victimized by it, globally.
The people who are freaked about losing "sovereignty" or the new world order are just dupes of the wealthy, as far as I can tell. Independent nation states, banks and lawyers serve rogues and villains better than any number of guns.
Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
How is your relationship with government a net loss if you pay zero income tax?
How much do you think your cigarette, liquor and gasoline taxes amount to every year?
You are welcome on my lawn.
That only works until somebody like Castro (or Chavez) comes along
Chavez has to come back from the dead, first.
Grammer Nazis - I mod you "troll" unless you actually add something on-topic. Yes, I know I have mispellings in my sig.
That works until you can't meet your own needs. Then we either all chip in or let you die in the gutter. I say we all chip in.
I know folks like you, one day you will take the money when you need it then try to rationalize why it is ok for you to take it but not anyone else.
How does "working productively" have anything to do with boycotting something that you disagree with?
As someone who just paid $10,000.00 to my local water provider (a private company) just for the rights to hook up a pipe (and still be billed per gallon, and I had to hook up the pipe), I get really pissed off when I hear people thank government for clean water. In most cases, you pay cash for that service, whether it's from a government water works or a private supplier. And you pay dearly for it. If your house was already built, the builder paid for it and tacked it onto your mortgage. If you're renting, your landlord paid it. It's expensive, and sewer fees are even worse.
Sidewalks and roads aren't as public as you might think, either. Any road other than a highway is built by a developer and then handed over for free to the government as a condition of rezoning. Highways are increasingly private. The Washington D.C. beltway is now a foreign owned for-profit toll road.
Every electric service I know of has been a private company.
Then look at a lot of your other "public infrastructure". Schools. Police. Fire department. Libraries. Etc. That's all county government. You might be surprised at how little of your government services come from state or federal, especially considering the disproportionate amount of your taxes that go there.
Spoken like someone without a major health problem, because if you did and found yourself on Medicaid, you'd be wanting the Fed, Gov. to get every penny lest they tell you they can no longer afford you.
If you don't know the difference between working productively and "making a boycott app for smartphones", then don't complain about your minimum-wage lifestyle.
It's almost as if the word "like" means "similar to" and not the exact same person.
$4,000 each, even if you're a toddler. average western family ~$16,000. Which gets spent. Even if it's on another bowl of rice (where the hell do YOU buy your rice from? Starbucks Switzerland?), that means someone got paid for growing that rice, packing that rice, sending that rice to the shops and selling you that rice. Where it is it's doing fuck all.
And this isn't the only offshore tax haven.
Yep, it is all the Republicans fault. The fact that demographics alone will decimate those programs has nothing to do with it.
Call them simply what they are: Leeches. Taking everything civilized society has to offer (such as no roving hordes stringing up the filthy rich), but give nothing back but excrement.
Recall long ago when the US State Department cables thing was going on that Wikileaks said they had something MUCH MUCH bigger. I wonder if this is what they had to offer. They said it would embarass and damage a lot of people and it kind of sounds like this. It would seem like enough to keep honest law enforcement and tax offices business for a decade. (Note that I said "honest" because we generally know how it will play out in the U.S. We'll hear things like "too big to prosecute" and massive offers like 10 cents to the dollar or less.)
The flat tax is one of those things that sound great in a sound bite but are unworkable in reality. And besides, a flat tax is inherently regressive because the wealthy spend a much smaller percentage of income on necessities than poor and middle income people.
Which programs are those?
Lift the cap on SS and suddenly that is solvent. Which totally excludes closing the other loophole that rich folks have. That being to be paid $1 as income and take the rest as stock and options. Close both and it will be solvent forever.
I hide my vast wealth in a box buried under the tree in the North West corner of my backyard at 124 Main St. Podunk USA. No online data breach will ever release that information into the public...
oops!
I haven't thought of anything clever to put here, but then again most of you haven't either.
Problem is, you'll need to get money into your account somehow. To do so will take a wire transfer that the IRS will be notified about. Going the other direction would also take a wire transfer, that the IRS will be notified about.
Your "non-story" assertion is a bit short sighted from what I know ... if you divert all your income to Ireland or the Netherlands you can get it there nearly tax free. What you perceive as a hard time getting your money to the states is trivial if you find someone who will accept those accounts as collateral for you to borrow against. Oftentimes, the rate of the loan is lower than what you would lose getting hit with capital gains taxes in the US. On top of that, you can put that money in Ireland into a highly rated international fund to cut that loan rate down. Just because you had enough money, you get to skirt tax law enacted by our democratically elected politicians. Congratulations, you're a dick and I'm sure you can blame the socialists and "the system" for forcing you to do this and I'm sure you'll ask me if I donate extra money when I'm doing my taxes -- I don't. But I sure the hell don't tell my employer that I actually have accounts in Grand Cayman and they'll be moving 75% of my paycheck there for me and I'll take 25% of it here so I get a huge rebate for living below the poverty line while building bigger assets in the Caribbean.
... I can't wait for the bean counters to poor over all this data and find some of the other pieces. Either give me and every other equal citizen the same rights to avoid taxes or shut this crap down.
These offshore accounts? This is just one piece of a very large puzzle
My work here is dung.
When is the information going to be published in an easily accessible place for the public? The problem with all these data leaks is that they rarely make it to the main stream population. For this information in particular, will /. post names and banks from this data?
Never heard of free time? Or does working productively mean signing away every waking moment of your life to the mighty dollar?
and not every country is like the united states. The tax code is quite matured regulation, usually not a lot of ways to get out of it legally.
If the tax authorities know more, they will get more, and leave some skeletons behind.
Load New Commander (Y/N)?
Considering that I have had times I made less than that years ago the answer is yes, I can imagine that. Someone who makes that amount of money still has a portion of their money taken out as taxes anyways.
They then turn around and pay another portion of their money in sales tax and gas taxes and similar taxes. When you add everything up I would imagine that your typical person making that kind of money spends a lot more on taxes than they realize. Remember that a person making that kind of money is likely spending almost all of it on things that have a sales tax.
So... where's the analysis showing the list of ultimate beneficiaries that are being exposed? And specifically which ones are people in office?
-- I was raised on the command line, bitch
My guess is that the DoJ together with the CIA/NSA have had access to such information since the invocation of the Patriot Act. Supposedly, financial transactions needed to be monitored to ensure they were not being diverted to terrorist activities*.
Our administration, desperately in need of tax revenues, just packages it all up on a hard drive and ships it off to the press. In order to foment public rage over "the wealthy" and generate public support for extending taxing authority.
There is no way one single entity in the banking world has a need (or ability) to accumulate such data across hundreds of private institutions and dozens of government jurisdictions. This is the product of a powerful national intelligence organization.
*This has been a specious argument from the outset. The entire 9/11 operation could have been financed by the weekend gambling losses of one wealthy Saudi prince. Just slip a few chips to the plot's operatives and it's laundered. There are numerous other ways to hide such relatively small fund transfers.
Have gnu, will travel.
Flat taxes are almost uniformly supported by rich people for the simple reason they pay a higher percentage of their income in taxes now than do the members of middle class.
It is only the ultra rich who live on capital gains and dividends who get the real tax break.
Well, if the data is real, I'm more interested in new found tax income and the jail time.
Privacy is terrorism.
That only works once, by and large. Some countries know they'll make even more in the long term by providing discrete, secure financial services. Switzerland has for a very long time.
1. Write app to identify evil corporations for smartphones.
2. Put your competitors' names on evil list.
3. Have your corporation sell 'evil list app' to suckers.
4. ????
5. Profit!
6. Watch as your competitors' market share for other products tumble.
7. ????
8. Profit some more!
Have gnu, will travel.
Wait, where do you live where rule by the intelligent has actually been tried? From where I'm standing, it looks like your average high school student knows more about science and technology than half of Congress, and it looks like most of them don't even have enough intelligence to learn about these subjects before legislating on them. Intelligent, indeed.
I'm pretty sure we live on a planet that is largely ruled by the lawyers. This is why we have complex bodies of law designed to be utterly impenetrable for the average person. Lawyers create laws designed so that everyone will have need of their services in the future. The result is that the laws are written not by people who actually understand anything about the real world, but rather by people who mostly only understand the law.
Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.
Maintain some perspective.
Have gnu, will travel.
That comes from a poor misunderstanding of how taxes affect the poor. They still have to pay income tax, and they have to pay another significant amount of their income in sales taxes of many kinds (gas, phone etc). Simply put they have very little flexibility between their minimum payment out (housing), utilities (taxed) and the rest of their spending (taxed). When you add everything up they are taxed at a higher rate by percentage of income than they think they are.
Sales taxes are what actually disproportionally affect the poor for most people far more than income tax. Taken into context with all of the hidden taxes most people don't realize they pay (telephone taxes etc) and it adds up to a significant amount of their spendable money.
If your paying the minimum amount of Federal and State tax and your turning around and spending another 8% or so of all your income on one kind of sales tax or another you can easily end up raising your effective tax rate quite a bit. A flat tax has to be tied to getting rid of all secondary taxes to avoid disproportionately affecting the poor, something you will note I called out to do.
Not a rich person.
Sounds interesting... but there's very little information here. They list about 20 names of people I haven't heard of mostly in 3rd world countries. Where are all the US citizens? The Euro zone? Name names, give us account balances... Put the data on the pirate bay and I'll start believing this.
Of course, the Occupy folks don't care about this
Actually, they do care about the difference between the 1% and the 0.01%, but to say that there isn't a significant difference between the richest 1% and everyone else is also incorrect. If you are in the 1%, you are making at least $500K annually. That's obviously different from the Lloyd Blankfeins and Bill Gates's of the world, but it's still a staggeringly large amount of cash, and about 15 times the income of the average American. For example, if you're getting that $500K in a paycheck, you could, without any kind of attempt at frugality, save enough in about 4-5 years to stop working and still be making 10 times what your average American makes. You could buy a home outright on less than a year's income, while most Americans who buy a home spend most of their lives paying for it. You might not be in the private jet crowd, but you are definitely living in a world that is completely different from what, say, a middle class family in Peoria is living in.
I am officially gone from
That's why a flat tax is often presented with an offset to provide a buffer at the low end. Something like your owed tax = (Income - $15k) * Flat_Tax_Rate.
Oddly, the only way it could cause inflationary pressure would be if somebody figured out how to force it back into the consumer economy.
Planet Money did a series of stories on this very thing not long ago. They opened two shell companies, one overseas and one inside the US. They laid bare all the details of how it works with the fake board and trustees, etc.
Of course, the Occupy folks don't care about this, as their true, stated aim was simply opposing capitalism, "consumerism", and pitting Americans against Americans in some kind of imagined class warfare...
ORLY? Where is this "true stated aim" of the Occupy movement published? I can't seem to find a single message *from them* that unifies the US flavors of the movement - much less an agreed upon message for the rest of the world. Perhaps you may have simply taken the word of your preferred "news" outlet as to the goals of the movement?
Oh wait...you think that the Occupy movement is just a US thingy, don't you? Isn't that just adorable! Pro tip 1: the Occupy folks in Armenia/Australia/Belgium/Canada/Colombia/Czech Republic/Cyprus/Denmark/France/Germany/Hong Kong/Italy/Malaysia/Mexico/Mongolia/Netherlands/New Zealand/Nigeria/Norway/Republic of Ireland/South Africa/South Korea/Spain/Switzerland don't give a rats ass about pitting Americans against Americans in some kind of imagined class warfare. Pro tip 2: what's been going on in the US bears little (if any) resemblance to capitalism.
I'm one of those folks. Every year when I do my taxes, I take advantage of every loophole afforded me. Do you want me to lose my mortgage interest deduction? Ok, take that away and instead of cutting a check to the Treasury dept for $400, I make it out for $1750. Wow, $1350 is one month's mortgage payment. So yeah, I like my loophole. But hell yeah, when I need to drive my truck to work, I also take advantage of the road that my taxes helped pave. But having said all that, I don't get pissed off at the rich guy that ONLY payed hundreds of thousands of dollars in taxes last year. You chicken shit assholes that think the rich should have to pay more need to shut your gap. Give me the option of not having to pay for your girlfriends abortion or the sex change for the convicted murderer. Give me the ability to "avoid" paying for research that involves putting shrimp on a treadmill. Give all of us the opportunity to say no to paying for a bunch of silly nonsense and guess what, you won't need as damn much money in the Govt coffers.
And no, before the hyperbole gets rank, I'm not proposing to stop supporting the needy. I give to charity because it affords a tax loophole, but I don't claim all of my charitable giving either. I'm not a monster that wants to see homeless folks dead on the street but I don't like being held responsible because some of you takers can't exercise some self-restraint.
Charter Member of The Committee Group For The Elimination And Eradication Of Repetitive Redundancy
So it's basically marginal taxation with two margins only. Still seems fairly regressive.
Democrats: With Lube
Republicans: Without
We play the game with the bravery of being out of range
The thing about taxes is that we are all being double taxed.
If you receive a paycheck you pay x% to federal, state (sometimes), city (sometimes), but I haven't been to a city yet that does charge sales tax. This is a tax on money you're already been taxed on. Then if I want to set up an IRA or a Ross IRA with my remaining funds from my pay check, I'll be taxed again. So I have to wonder how many of these "super rich" are all hiding wealth to not pay taxes at all, or how many are hiding what they are worth so they aren't taxed additionally for being successful in business?
I'm not justifying tax evasion, but just a different perspective on the super wealthy. I know that if I was super wealthy, I would be miffed, to say the least, if I had to pay more taxes on my hard earned money simply because I was successful, and this is assuming all taxes were paid within legal guidelines. After seeing what is happening in other countries, I would want to hide how much I own and am worth too.
At this point, if you want to get rid of the hateful attitude of the low/middle income folks against the wealthy/super rich income folks, make all taxes flat taxes. And all government spend budgets must always 15% lower then the projected incomes that way a government is ready in the event of a short fall in those projected income $s. Get rid of extreme salaries and if you offer any sort of pension plan, it should be set up to you get out what was put into it. When $ runs out, it's done. I'm all for people making a lot of $ but not when they are tax payer paid extreme salaries.
Legal fees should be charged back against the salaries of our leadership that enact laws in haste that are repealed within x years.
Close all legal loopholes on taxes and simplify the tax code structure to make it easy to pay taxes.
Or get rid of all income tax and only create a consumption tax.
And government leaders who want to take a vacation have to pay for their vacation from their own pockets (this includes the cost of Airforce One and all of the secret service folks that go to protect them.) Watch how few vacations they take then.
The super rich can only hide their wealth because our governments have set things up so that they can.
Life takes interesting turns, but the most interest is when you're off the beaten path.
your average high school student knows more about science and technology than half of Congress
Come on, our high schools can't be that bad.
Yes but remember, politicians still control the IRS. Those are appointed positions. Don't think for a second that any politician is going to allow their funding sources to be harmed in any way.
once more into the breach
When I report my income, do I really report all my income or is much of the real income available to me hidden in deferrals, tax free municipals, etc? I'm not rich, but I can assure you even my reported income is very different from the real income with the difference mostly in the ability to defer income on investments (iBonds, IRA, 401K, etc.)
Every businessman I know writes off things which personally benefit him be it the yacht (qualifies as a second home), the vacation place, the golf club, the charity deduction (designed to provide positive exposure for his business), the gas for his truck, the company car he commutes in, etc.
The poor have no such investments or write-offs. So their reported matches the real.
I filed my taxes the other day, I was shocked at the low % amount of tax relative to even reported income.
So I question the stats of tax paid versus income percentages because if one of those figures isn't the same (real) for all the strata being compared, you get a very false picture.
I think the biggest problem is that the differences in economy for the wealthy and the poor and all in between has led to general disillusionment. It is hard to have a goal, and as a society the constant pressure has demoralized individuals so that they don't think that they can progress in their life. This is why individuals that pull themselves up from the ground are talked about so often on shows. They are a rarity. If workers got paid their value and there was a situation where individuals could feel like they could move up in life, then I'm sure more people would.
As a person, I know my greatest enemy is uncertainty. In a few months, will I still be living here? Is there some place that I can get a job in my area of interest, or will be I forced to program websites till the end of my days?
The middle class needs to grow. The upper class needs to allow them to grow. It isn't the poor keeping the middle class from growing, as that is just not possible. If they poor were taking the wealth and opportunity away, they would be better off.
Well with all this out in the open we all know that bugger all will get done, as all the rich people employ us average folk, who in turn pay the taxes, et cetera, et cetera.
Find a job you love, and never work a day in your life.
*facepalm*
I concede my stupidity.
Grammer Nazis - I mod you "troll" unless you actually add something on-topic. Yes, I know I have mispellings in my sig.
Actually, I know exactly where Occupy (née OWS) came from: the anti-US, anti-capitalist, anti-"consumerist", "culture-jamming" Canadian magazine Adbusters, which openly stated that the goal was to ride the discontent in the wake of the economic downturn to turn people against the "rich", in the form of the "top 1%".
They made absolutely no secrets about it, and were proud of it. The fact that the "Occupy" movement spread to places outside of the US is irrelevant, and happened after AdBusters seeded and initiated the movement within the US.
I call BS. States that recieve federal funds for things like medicaid have to adhere to the federal income guidelines for eligibility. Which is why In NY I can make 20K before taxes and still not be eligible for food, utilities, *or* medicaid.
C|N>K
So are you conceding that the US has a serious inequality problem, or did you just log in to rail against Occupy? I don't really care where we draw the line, an exponential curve has no inflection point, so it's arbitrary. If you want to draw the line at the .01%, I'd be happy to have you on my side fighting against the actual class warfare that is the daily business of Washington.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
Sure, but those people aren't the ones who are the source of our problems. For what it's worth, from 2011 IRS data:
Category..........Top 0.1%....1%....5%...10%..25%..50%..Bot 50%
Income Req'd $........1.4M..344K..155K..112K..66K..32K....N/A
Income Share %...........8....17....32....43...66...87.....13
Effective tax rate %....24....24....20....18...15...12......2
Income tax share %......17....37....59....70...87...98......2
Also, you're comparing apple to oranges by saying that "you could [...] save enough in about 4-5 years to stop working and still be making 10 times what your average American makes." No, because they already have the income they have, and they have a different lifestyle -- and guess what? They haven't done anything wrong.
The place where anything that can be defined as actual unfair "abuse" is occurring is in the 0.01% and up, and it's not even all of those people. To wholesale target the "top 1/5/10%" as evil or the cause of our problems ignores the fact that the top 10% -- who themselves are making over $100,000/year -- are paying 70% of the federal income tax share.
Even if we could have the bottom, say, 50%, or even the bottom *90%* pay NO tax of any kind, including payroll, sales, or anything else, and shift that ENTIRE burden to the top 10% (which is absurd, but let's just roll with it for the sake of argument), there would still be a massive wealth disparity. The very poor would still be very poor.
What then? True wealth redistribution? I'm sorry, but no matter how noble that might be in the view of some, that is simply not compatible with a free society. That's the problem people have with this whole "the top 1% is evil" and/or "has more than they deserve" trope. It's not your business how much someone else has. Surely you can do with less; shall we take it away? Of course not.
What we should be targeting is actual ABUSE and people who are getting off scot-free...and hint, it's not the vast, vast, vast majority of people in the top 1%. So what happens when a certain element of the top 0.00X% are essentially flouting the system and operating outside the bounds of any of the regulations and laws to which the rest of are beholden? Apparently if we ask the Occupy crowd, it's to attack everyone who appears to have more than you as the enemy.
Doesn't regressive refer to the percentage of taxable income? So a flat tax is neither progressive or regressive. I guess it's regressive on expendable income, I just didn't think that meant you could call it regressive, but I could be wrong. A consumption tax, on the other hand, is argued to be regressive in that manner. I'd like to know the data, though, I feel like the wealthy spend plenty of money on luxuries, and would continue to do so, that would make a consumption tax progressive. I've just never heard anyone present arguments or data beyond "it's regressive" or "it's unfair", or the ever-popular bullshit line "a progressive tax punishes hard work".
I like progressive taxation, I think it makes sense, ideally, as a system to curb unstable growth of wealth. But I also keep coming back to the US LIibertarian party's "Fair Tax", which is I think a consumption tax after a certain allowance, just because it's simple and much harder to fuck with and play games with. Even a heavily progressive tax system is effectively regressive if there are loopholes to be exploited.
For reference, he pays $10,000 per year to walk on sidewalks that are built with $5000 of cement, which last 15-20 years.
Electricity and phones are private infrastructure, which he pays for in something called a "Utility Bill".
Sewage and water are public infrastructure, which he pays for in "Water" and "Sewage" usage taxes, plus a mandatory "flush tax" of roughly $150/mo.
Roads are maintained by the gas tax, which he pays for per fuel in the car he actually drives. His car won't do much damage to the roads, which last 15-20 years passing thousands of cars per hour per day.
Perhaps he's using about $200 of services he doesn't directly pay for, and paying $10,000 for it. Also, last year, the US Government spent $500,000,000 to purchase and distribute condoms in Tijuana to clients of sex workers--i.e. they bought condoms for dudes picking up hookers with our tax money. The US Government also gives rice to Europe, Asia, and Saudi. I don't think the US Government gave this guy $10,000 of condoms and rice, either.
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You're both right. Sales taxes are regressive, and flat income taxes are regressive. We should have neither. Our tax system should get a greater proportion of taxes from people who can afford to pay a greater proportion of taxes. Those are the people who have benefited the most, so they should pay a larger share.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
Makes sense. Don't like what you're getting out of government use of your tax dollars, therefore you applaud the rich for evading taxes, thereby shifting more of the tax burden onto yourself. Yeah, good one.
If the first world countries don't control it, they're not signing on. Why would they?
If the second or third world countries don't benefit from it, they're not signing on. Why would they?
And why would tax havens sign onto this regardless?
There's no world government that could just decree it. And you need folks with guns to enforce it. Only way it'd work is if it was used by First World countries to loot third world countries and strangle tax havens, but create dependency in which it provided something they needed. Maybe if you refused any banking transfers to countries not a member of whatever agreement, and added in "loan packages" for compliance.
The solution would probably be worse than the problem.
I'm actually advocating the mortgage interest deduction be fenced because it pushes up the cost of houses disproportionately. That house was more expensive because most people are convinced they get the interest back, and they treat it at sale as if they will pay $5000 and the government will get $5000 back to them. The thought of a big windfall also makes people accept paying more, so rather than just $5000 they accept a $10,000 increase in house price. And so on.
Of course over 30 years that winds down to some $100,000 extra in costs. Then there's the fact that it's on top of your standard deduction--for me, taking my interest as an itemized deduction has been a loss since day 1, and I'm single. My itemized deduction is less than my standard deduction. Now, my parents, married, bought a $250,000 house... the first year, they claimed ~$12,600. Problem: Their standard deduction is $11,600. They got $1000 more deducted, about $300 back in taxes. The second year, it was less than the standard deduction, so there's no longer a benefit.
Have you compared your total itemized deduction with your mortgage against the greater of either A) your standard deduction; or B) your itemized deduction sans mortgage? Because it sounds like you're deducting $16,000 per year, which at the current rates (my rate is 2.785% but let's say 3%) means you have a half a million dollar house. I'm shedding the tiniest tear about your $1350.
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In fact, if anything you are setting up a single point of failure that would be the best target for control by those with wealth...
This goes both ways. You're also setting up a single point of repair. Democracies, real ones, tend to do that.
In fact, I expect corruption forever. What I also expect is that the world is a big place with many competing interests. Any unitary political entity will be difficult to maintain, but have the advantage of serving no one group exclusively. If, for example, there was a minimum global wage, many business groups would fight for exceptions, however many more would fight for its maintenance. Currently, efforts are fragmented by nationalist "beggar thy neighbor" strategies. An international playing field eliminates this.
Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
Ah, don't we spend over a trillion and a half on Entitlement programs? I was under the impression entitlement spending was 57.4% of total federal outlays in FY2012.
Fiat currency that ends up in the hands of hostile dictators tends to find itself worthless in many ways. It doesn't help when that money technically "doesn't exist".
The only thing that allows people to store money in these offshore banks, and get it back, is the sufferance of various entities that continue to allow their computers to do business with your computers. If some dictator decides he's going to steal all that money, he's suddenly going to be the beneficiary of a lot of ones and zeros that resemble bank balances, and not much in the way of actual currency.
Tossing out numbers is idiotic at best, but since you fabricated numbers it's pure propaganda. The establishment of a tax system is based on percentages, not dollar amounts. Why? Because this is the only way to make the system fair. If I make 1 billion dollars and pay 10% tax, and you make 50 dollars and pay 10% tax, the system would be fair. What is unfair, is that someone holds the ability to make a billion dollars while other people in the same society starve.
I guess "The Allegory of the Artisan" is foreign to you, but your ignorance is no excuse for spreading propaganda.
In the US, we have over 65,000 pages of "Tax Law" which gives legal loopholes to the wealthy. No wealthy person currently pay's the same percentage of tax as someone of middle class or in poverty. Even with the legal loopholes, they act immorally and illegally to get more money while everyone else is expected to pay for them.
The people in society are not asking for 1960s laws to be returned which had income taxed at 90% for the wealthy (which is more in line with "The Allegory of the Artisan"), they are asking for a fair system in which everyone pays an equal share. I personally believe we should return to the 1960s tax laws, but don't mind "equal" as a starting point. Then again, I understand why Socrates presented that particular allegory.
-The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.
Most of what you say is untrue and misguided, condoms, gas tax, rice giving, sewage and electricity. Since you only stated things out of the blue I'll do the same. Just stating lots of half-true factoids do no prove my nor your point, but I think it show that the discussion is a tad bit more complicated than a binary outcome.
You give them far too much credit.
The average "peon" or billionaire cannot even begin to know how horribly wrong this will/is going!
Go ahead and Google SHTF..
I killed da wabbit -Elmer Fudd
Claiming Adbusters speaks for Occupy movements worldwide is like claiming Rush Limbaugh speaks for all conservatives in the US.
While Adbusters (in concert with Workhouse) may have provided a spark to ignite OWS, I see no evidence that OWS, other US Occupy movements, or other Occupy movements worldwide have completely adopted Adbusters' agenda. I see no evidence that Occupy movements look to Adbusters as their primary media outlet/spokesperson. Quite the opposite, if you look at occupywallst.org, there is precious little mention of Adbusters outside of the site's forums - where Adbusters is frequently ridiculed.
Here's what OWS actually says about their origins:
Occupy Wall Street is a people-powered movement that began on September 17, 2011 in Liberty Square in Manhattan’s Financial District, and has spread to over 100 cities in the United States and actions in over 1,500 cities globally. #ows is fighting back against the corrosive power of major banks and multinational corporations over the democratic process, and the role of Wall Street in creating an economic collapse that has caused the greatest recession in generations. The movement is inspired by popular uprisings in Egypt and Tunisia, and aims to fight back against the richest 1% of people that are writing the rules of an unfair global economy that is foreclosing on our future.
There seems to be no mention of Adbusters.
"Occupy folks" aren't some kinda monolithic group subscribing to a rigid ideological agenda with a single publication acting as their Pravda. You really should open your mind to the idea that many (if not most) of the movements have matured beyond the radical positions Adbusters promotes. You also might want to consider the possibility that the US government's treatment of large financial institutions following the crisis is an affront to capitalist ideals, and is something that *should* be protested.
That's what the lawyers want you to think.
Here is a nice selection. Some are even available at modest, 5-figure rates.
http://www.privateislandsonline.com/
Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
For the record, I'm personally sitting somewhere in the top 20% and could easily end up in the top 10% next year, so this isn't about self-interest for me.
Also, you're comparing apple to oranges by saying that "you could [...] save enough in about 4-5 years to stop working and still be making 10 times what your average American makes." No, because they already have the income they have, and they have a different lifestyle -- and guess what? They haven't done anything wrong.
My point is not that they've done something wrong, just that they're in a privileged position compared to those who don't earn that kind of cash. And I agree it's quite possible they earned that cash fair and square.
The place where anything that can be defined as actual unfair "abuse" is occurring is in the 0.01% and up, and it's not even all of those people. To wholesale target the "top 1/5/10%" as evil or the cause of our problems ignores the fact that the top 10% -- who themselves are making over $100,000/year -- are paying 70% of the federal income tax share.
The portion of the "1%" the Occupy types are upset with (at least as far as taxes go) are the ones that are working the various tax loopholes to pay 15% on 8-figure incomes while people making a fraction of that pay 28%.
Even if we could have the bottom, say, 50%, or even the bottom *90%* pay NO tax of any kind, including payroll, sales, or anything else, and shift that ENTIRE burden to the top 10% (which is absurd, but let's just roll with it for the sake of argument), there would still be a massive wealth disparity. The very poor would still be very poor.
There wouldn't be a massive wealth disparity, actually, because there's a good chance we just put the wealthiest people in the poorhouse. That's a large part of why no one is seriously suggesting doing that.
It's not your business how much someone else has. Surely you can do with less; shall we take it away? Of course not.
If it's a choice between taking away some of my income, when I can live on about 30% of what I earn (after taxes), or taking away some income from somebody who is having a tough time paying the rent, then yes, I'd say it's wise to take away more of my income rather than theirs. To pay its bills, the government needs to tax somebody, and it makes more sense to tax those with extra cash than those without.
What we should be targeting is actual ABUSE and people who are getting off scot-free...and hint, it's not the vast, vast, vast majority of people in the top 1%.
It's not just about "scot-free", it's also about those who are paying less than their share. For example, according to one study, almost 100,000 millionaires paid a lower percentage of their income in taxes than people in the 28% bracket. That makes no sense.
I am officially gone from
As a single guy with an income of $30k to $40k, even with the student loan interest, I still paid federal taxes. I don't know what you're talking about it being a big gain.
The Quirkz Handbook of Self-Improvement for People Who Are Already Pretty Okay
Torrent of the data yet
Your'e all thinking it, I just said it for you
Tijuana! You're right, I was off by an order of 1000, shit.
Also, I pay for a "flush tax", plus I pay municipal (city) water on my property taxes, plus the water flow is used to calculate my sewage usage and added as a sewage bill. The "flush tax" is an additional standard sewage tax(!) that aims at a fund to restore our wetland assets from damage caused by all this sewage being spewed into the environment. I pay my electric bill to Baltimore Gas and Electric, a privately-owned corporation recently acquired by the conglomerate private entity Constellation Energy; they charge me for distribution, as the distribution network is privately owned by BGE, but they forward my commodity payments to the private entity American Power for 100% 'green' (non-air-polluting, containable) electricity and to Mount Washington Gas and Electric for 100% offset natural gas (I pay a LOT more for natural gas commodity, but the extra buys carbon offsets that go into programs to improve air and water quality).
So yes, I pay a bunch of private entities for some "public" infrastructure, and a lot of public entities for other actually-public infrastructure. I pay the government based on my usage of water and on estimated usage of sewage infrastructure, and I pay the power company based on my metered usage of supplied commodities and on distribution of said commodities through their privately-owned distribution network. Our state asserts that the fuel tax is used to fund our roads, although I know better: they get federal funding that comes from my federal income tax, although I know I don't do $15,000 of damage to the roads each year.
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Let's consider for a second what the implications of the government taxing that wealth is.
The way I see it, if they tax it and use it to pay down the debt, the money is just destroyed outright. That is not necessarily a bad thing. These "rich" people have all of that money just sitting there. It is not productive money currently. It is not being used to create jobs, pay salaries or in any other way contribute to the economy. For your average citizen, if all of that "money" vanished into thin air, they would not notice. They do not see it now, they will not see it if governments tax it and pay down debt with it.
On the other hand, if the government confiscates that money through taxation and then uses it to fund programs, the money enters into circulation. The more money in circulation, the more inflation we see. Long term, any programs that are funded with that money create a problem because taxation of that money is a one time event. The programs are perpetual. Perpetual programs will require funding long after the one time windfall has been exhausted.
What do all of you think? Even if the governments were to get together and find a way to tax all of that offshore income, would it be a good thing for the economy?
The mattress.
Please note, I didn't say "going to the mattresses" (I could tell some of you got a bit excited)
What austerity?
There's your missing taxes.
Now send some drones and repurpose the DEA to go after them pronto.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
So... where's the analysis showing the list of ultimate beneficiaries that are being exposed? And specifically which ones are people in office?
Every time the Greek government was given a list by the IMF head LaGrande, it would go missing within the day, never to be found.
Same thing here.
Guillotines are cheaper, and far more effective, as is automatic unclaimed asset forfeiture.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
Generally speaking, the more wealth a person has the LESS hard they work to earn it.
Hard earned super wealth? Total BS propaganda for suckering actually hard working people into feeling sympathy. Also, even lazy people feel THEY are hard working.. most everybody is going to identify with such phrasing.
Just think of it in terms of math: Say you work 70 hours per week on a hard stressful difficult job that shortens your lifespan and burdens your health. Say you get $1000 for that week of hard labor. Compare that against somebody who makes $100,000 doing the exact same thing. For the amount "earned" the high wage earner is actually working less for the money. This is just 1 way to view it. What is defined as hard labor is a whole other topic.
One could say their job is more important so they earn more. Well, that is unrealistic too. Nobel prize winners (in the sciences) are more important and likely worked harder to get to that level. They don't get paid much for the significantly more important work they do for the human species.
Consumption Taxes are inequitable. Not to say they couldn't be done equitably; they could. An equitable income tax can be done; the flat % tax is one method (but totally unrealistic in a dysfunctional democracy.) Since the accumulation of great wealth permits unwarranted levels of power that are a great threat to civil societies (especially governments,) one can't allow private entities to gain too much power - just as government design tries to separate and balance the powers, the private sector needs to be balanced and limited or it'll corrupt government just as an overly powerful executive can push around the other branches and harm the effectiveness of a government. How this problem can not be obvious to everybody baffles me; we live in an age where governments are subject to external powers (HSBC being immune from the law, being a recent example.)
Democracy Now! - uncensored, anti-establishment news
so this is what Grover Norquist meant by "starve the beast".
of the United States.
While Shay's Rebellion had an effect on the terms penned in the constitution, as the Whiskey Rebellion proved (with Washington's direct involvement no less!), is that the rich will do whatever is necessary to put THEIR negotiated war debts on the backs of the poor, and the poor inevitably end up back under the threat of force of the rich if they disagree over who should foot the bill.
So Leverage was a documentary after all..... :P
Please tell me what was learned that isn't already known.
I agree. Nowdays these shell banks would be closed down in minutes and their balances shifted to other shell banks in the network. It's not like the 1950's when there was lots of hard currency and expensive properties inolved. When the super rich traveled for MONTHS long trips... With cars, furniture, maids, butlers, wardrobes, expensive art, etc.
The thing is that these dictators will pay crazy interest... Which as they ARE THE GOVERNMENT make the people hold the bag later... So there are banks with this money just stupid enough to stay there.
This is perhaps the most intelligent thing I have read all day. I burned through my mod points yesterday so when I get some more I'll throw ya one. It is simple divide and conquer, making us fight with our coworkers and neighbors instead of turning our ire on them. Its a classic play from several of the great literary works, and it's obviously very effective.
Dunno where you got your ideas about Victorian values - it's kind of funny since you're describing movements(better worker appreciation which Ford copied from few german companies) which happened in societies at exactly post Victorian timeframe.
How old was Ford? On January 5, 1914, he was 50 years, So he was born solidly in the middle of the Victorian era. Second, as I just implied, his "five dollar day" policy was implemented prior to the First World War, which is the traditional end of the Victorian era.
prior to the First World War, which is the traditional end of the Victorian era.
Ok, Queen Victoria died in 1901 which technically is the end of the era, but things didn't really change until the brutality of the First World War making that a better bookend for the era.
I wish I were rich only so I could pay less taxes than I do now and fuck over the government, who I hate.
In Soviet Russia, dot slashes YOU!
Enlightened self interest, that's why
There is nobody in this country who got rich on his own. Nobody. ... You moved your goods to market on the roads the rest of us paid for; you hired workers the rest of us paid to educate; you were safe in your factory because of police forces and fire forces that the rest of us paid for. You didn't have to worry that marauding bands would come and seize everything at your factory, and hire someone to protect against this, because of the work the rest of us did. Now look, you built a factory and it turned into something terrific, or a great idea. God bless. Keep a big hunk of it. But part of the underlying social contract is, you take a hunk of that and pay forward for the next kid who comes along.
Elizabeth Warren.
If you neglect your part of the social contract then it makes easy to others to break it too and descent into anarchy. Yugoslavia collapsed not only by the ethnic tensions, it collapsed because their economy collapsed itself before. You don't care about the race or what have your neighbor when you and your loved ones have a job, a roof, food on the table and a hope for a better future. You don't have that and then you are easy prey of demagogues or criminal gangs.
The same tax avoidance schemes criticized by most here, the same preferential treatment to the super rich was implemented in Mexico 3 decades ago, when the country had a better development than South Korea. Now Walmart Mexico pays less than USD$6 a year on income tax, while I as a middle rank public servant paid USD$17,600 on income tax last year plus all the other taxes. Even with their crazy neighbor up north they are way better than Mexico now, and thanks to the hi tech development program financed by their government in the late 1990's they are now a technological power house that rivals with the USA or Japan.
The insane concentration of wealth combined with low or no taxes for the rich and low wages-high taxes for the middle class and the poor destroys the market economy that is consumer based. There aren't many wares or services that can be sold to the homeless or the extremely poor. On the social side, people that not have anything to lose by breaking the rules and the law join criminal gangs that offer a change to a living wage. In my city the ones that planned a mass murder of 18 people earned from the cartels the same wage than me, the gunners earned 5,000 pesos weekly, at least two times more than what gets earned on average by the workers of the local branch of IBM or HP.
Mexico: 100% conservative's America now!
Newt Gingrich may be one of the more vile human beings to ever be in Congress, but he was also one of the smartest. He very early on figured out that he didn't need to repeal taxes and regulations on his sponsors, all he had to do was de-fund the agencies that enforced them. The IRS used to prosecute some very complex tax evasion cases, but Gingrich changed their budget to minimize investigations and had Congress legislate that their top enforcement priority was against people attempting to claim the Earned Income Tax Credit (mostly the very poor). The IRS enforcement division went from being a large revenue source to barely breaking even.
"Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
sed 's/'\â\(TM\)'/\x27/g'
There's class warfare, all right, but it's my class, the rich class, that's making war, and we're winning.
You don't improve your lot in life by fighting, you improve your lot in life by creating something.
This focus on income brackets in these discussions is stupid. Making $500k doesn't make you "rich"; it may not even make you a multi-millionaire. Many people who make that kind of money are often two-income professional households that happen to have a particularly good year and need to save aggressively in order to be able to retire reasonably well and pay for college for their kids.
You're rich if you actually own a lot of stuff; you don't become a billionaire by saving a salary and the rich, as a rule, don't work or don't make big salaries if they do (because they don't have to; just look at Jobs or Ellison with their $1 salaries). And you can't tax that kind of wealth because it doesn't show up anywhere and it never actually gets spent. If you try to tax it, people will just move it into some asset class that governments don't account for.
Income tax never gets at "the rich"; it mostly just penalizes the upper middle class and professionals. And the truly rich you can never tax or reach no matter what you do.
s/Internet/Information/
Even today information is in many ways more valuable than money. These tax evaders obviously knew some information that less privileged people don't normally have access to, be it the name of a corrupt government contact or a tax loophole buried in GB's of legalese. Now if we can put that privileged information onto the Internet, maybe this might make a difference in tearing down the Information/BigData tyranny of the elite.
You mean like Ayn Rand, who spent the last years of her life on Social Security and Medicare?
"Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
I suppose you could just carry buckets of water from the river if you didn't want to hook up. Or drill a well for $15,000+ and pay three times the water bill in electricity to run the pump. Of course the only reason that either of those two sources might be more or less safe (after treating the river water, anyway) is because government is keeping the dry cleaners and auto repair shop from pouring their waste products out the back door.
"Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
For that matter, the Federal gov't is the only thing that keeps the medicines and treatments safe. My grandmother used to tell me about neighbors who became opium addicts from patent medicines that they were given while in the hospital.
"Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
For recommending this valuable service. I have completed the interactive component, choosing British Virgin Islands, $10M laundered in via phoney lawsuit with 3% interest over 5 years and payed out as a rigged gambling 'win'. Now all I need to do is sit back and wait for the money!
My only complaint with the component is the loud 'bloink' sound it produces repeatedly brought everyone in the house running to see what was happening and look over my shoulder. Now I must share the money when it arrives. And I fear the IRS might be able to monitor for that sound... there was a helicopter in the area soon after I had placed my order.
<blink>down the rabbit hole</blink>
Please elaborate. You're being vague.
No doubt you consider the FICA deduction a "Tax", and fail to understand that when you file your tax return you get most of the income tax back.
Murphy was an optimist
It is possible that the entire leak was fabricated by someone with an axe to grind, a political point to make, or an enemies list.
Murphy was an optimist
I understand that some people don't like what they get for their taxes in USA; certainly, compared with what taxpayers get in scandinavian countries, Australia or Germany they are not getting a very good deal, but still they get:
-A working state without an impunity rate of 96-98% for murder for the general population, 99% in case of the press like in Mexico, I doubt that is much different in any country with a weak/failed state
-A proper enforcement of transit laws that makes 2 to 5 five times less likely to die every time you hit the road than in Mexico
-5 times less likely to be murdered than in Mexico
-A powerful Army and Navy that for the last 200 years have imposed to hundreds if not thousands of governments around the world treaties and policies fairly advantageous to the interests of the american government and american companies
If they don't like what they have in the USA just by working hard and the government that they get by paying taxes to Uncle Sam we can trade places. In fact, they would find that they can trade places with 90% of people around the world.
Mexico: 100% conservative's America now!
Well done! Thanks for sharing. http://www.avowbd.com/
90% of corrupt money is with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forward_Caste people in India
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_scandals_in_India
IGI Airport scam = $32 billion(FC)
Coal Mining Scam = $213 billion(FC)
Karnataka Wakf Board Land Scam = $39 billion(FC)
Andhra Pradesh land scam = $20 billion(FC)
Service Tax and Central Excise Duty fraud = $3.82 billion(FC)
Gujarat PSU financial irregularities = $3.39 billion(FC) fdes
Maharashtra stamp duty scam = $126 million(FC)
Highway scam = $13.97 million(FC)
Ministry of External Affairs gift scam = $100,000(FC)fde
Himachal Pradesh pulse scam = $200,000/month(FC)
Flying Club fraud = $38 million(FC)
Jammu and Kashmir Cricket Association scam = $10 million (MC)
Punjab paddy scam = $3.59 million(FC)
Arvind Joshi and Tinu Joshi = $50 million(FC)
Uttar Pradesh seed scam = $9.98 million(FC)
Obsolete French Fighter Jets = $11 billion(FC)
NHRM = $2 billion(BC)
Goa mining scam = $700 million(FC)
Noida Corporation farm land scandal = $40 million(SC)
Bellary mines scandal = $3.2 billion(FC)
BL Kashyap EPFO Scam = $118 million(FC)
Hasan Ali Khan = $8 billion(MC)
ISRO-Devas = $300 million(FC)
Cash-for-votes = $715,000(FC)
2G spectrum scam/Tata(MC)/Ambani(FC)/Radia Tapes(FC)/ Kanimozhi(BC)/Raja(SC) = $6.9 billion
Adarsh Housing Society(FC)
Commonwealth Games = $15.5 billion(FC)
LIC Housing Loan scam = $200 million(FC)
Belekeri port = $12 billion(FC)
Lavasa = $80 million(FC)
Uttar Pradesh Food Grain = $44 billion(BC)
APIIIC = $2 billion(FC)
IPL Cricket = $8 billion(FC)
Madhu Koda = $800 million(SC)
UIDAI = $1 billion(FC)
Vasundhara Raje land scam = $4.4 billion(FC)
Satyam = $1 billion(FC)
Scorpene Deal = $10 million(FC)
Oil-for-food programme (Natwar Singh) = $10 billion(FC)
Gegong Apang PDS = $200 million(ST)
Taj corridor = $44 million(SC)
Ketan Parekh = $200 million(FC)
Barak Missile = $200 million(FC)
Calcutta Stock Exchange = $2 million(FC)
Cobbler scam = $214 million(FC)
Sukh Ram = $5 million(FC)
SNC Lavalin = $10 million(FC)
Advani Hawala = $18 million(FC)
Bihar fodder = $211 million(BC)
C R Bhansali = $200 million(FC)
Pickle bribes = $20,000(FC)
Telgi scam = $4.46 billion(MC)
JMM bribes = $59,000(ST)
Sugar import = $130 miillion(MC)
Harshad Mehta = $800 million(FC)
Indian Bank = $260 million(FC)
Bofors = $400 million(FC)
HDW commissions = $4 million(FC)
Antulay = $6 million(MC)
Nagarwala = $1 million(FC)
Haridas Mundhra = $10 million(FC)
Kuo oil scandal = $440,000(FC)
Teja loans = $5 million(FC)
BHU = $100,000(FC)
Jeep scandal = $160,000(FC)
Casteism
I have massive respect for those who serve their country.
Why?
No, seriously, why? It's like a third rail, or a vestige of the almost tribal (and at least nationalistic) notion that one of the most honorable or hottest things a guy can do is fight.
Some service members are worthy of great respect, because they do a great job and are willing to sacrifice themselves for something that is larger than they are, having actively made that decision on their own, rather than merely being taught that their country is great. But that is a rare person. Kind of like how you have people who spend their lives in service to others, working to make the world a better place, whether in nonprofits or commerce.
More people are there because they saw it as the best alternative, or a way to make some money, or they didn't see any alternative because it had always been expected of them. It's quite respectable to use it to get out of a bad neighborhood, to turn your life around or keep it from going bad.
But it's not respectable just by default, because you're trained to fight, kill people, and get shot at. In fact, if anything, that's the opposite of respectable, with the exception that some of the lessons along the way (good hygiene habits, sometimes discipline) can be respectable.
You are training to kill when someone points. That doesn't make you automatically good. It makes you a killer.
For your second facepalm consider what happened to Castro only a year or two earlier :)
I guess the source will remain anonymous.
Sure enough, the cow costume was hanging up next to the superhero outfit and sailors uniform. (S,Spud)
The money has to come from somewhere and not much of it is going to come from the poor.
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Which in most English speaking places means the government owns it - the "public owned" bit in English says that even if it might not be used that way in American English. Confusing maybe but that's what it means.
Anyway that's trivial in comparison to the "parasite" bit which really depends on where you draw the line - compared with farmers we could all be called parasites if food is considered the most important thing in civilisation. Sometimes and in some places there's nobody apart from a government with the capital to set up electricity generation, railways, roads or whatever, so in some places you get almost independent government owned companies doing it that strongly resemble the private ones. I worked for one for a couple of years and it had about 1/10 the red tape and bullshit of a publicly traded steel company I'd worked for previously. However I don't live in the USA and can see how you could get such an idea from the many stories I've heard about how everything the California state government touching turning to shit - but it's not governments in general that are useless, it's only ones run by useless idiots or criminals that fit that picture.
You are blaming the dog for it's master's orders to attack.
Without the dog, you can't have the dog bite. And there will frequently be terrible "masters".
I should never have used a metaphor in a discussion with someone that pretends to be mentally retarded enough to take it literally :(
I should never have used a metaphor in a discussion with someone that pretends to be mentally retarded enough to take it literally :(
You poor thing. That's how debate works. I didn't take the metaphor literally. I didn't start looking for bite marks on the seat of my trousers. Instead, I employed a standard rhetorical tactic of turning the metaphor against your argument.
Metaphors are two-edged and your own metaphor can be used against you. It's happened to me before.
I get it now - the petty high school debate game instead of a discussion. That explains the adversarial stance and the very childish pretence at being mentally retarded at times to avoid admitting that something another person has written is true. While I was trying to discuss an issue you were merely stroking your ego until it became engorged.
I'll be honest and say I don't pay too close attention to how much is "income tax" versus "FICA tax". They're both operating at a federal level, so I thought they were lumped in together. This is the first time someone has clearly suggested FICA doesn't count as part of the "federal" income tax in these calculations.
But if so, I think the argument gets slimmer and slimmer if the complaint is that a single guy making $35k who was paying city, county, state, sales, medicare, self-employment, and social security taxes, but not federal income tax, is a lousy, no-good, tax-evading, leech who was getting a "big gain" by breaking even in that one arena.
The Quirkz Handbook of Self-Improvement for People Who Are Already Pretty Okay
Also want to add the parent's post said "your relationship with the government" (not sure if he meant Fed or all of them) and not specifically, "your federal income tax balance." FICA is definitely part of my relationship with the government.
The Quirkz Handbook of Self-Improvement for People Who Are Already Pretty Okay
Are you really blaming the FDA for doing what they were told by elected officials chasing the extreme (and IMHO Godless) end of the "Christian" vote?
The answer was "Of course" with an explanation why. A couple of posts later you wrote:
I should never have used a metaphor in a discussion with someone that pretends to be mentally retarded enough to take it literally :(
Oh look, petty name calling.
All I can say is that if you want discussion rather than "petty high school debate", then don't be the source of the problem.
As to the adversarial nature of this "discussion", it's worth noting the large number of people who just tell me what is self-evidently right. I'm far from perfect here, but it's not that common to see an actual "discussion" here. It's more common to see people just dump whatever opinions they think are true.
Way back when, "seven of five" posted this:
Since these folks enjoy the same public roads, military, police and fire protection, etc as everyone else, then they can help pay for them. Otherwise, they're just mooching off the public good. If it's too much to ask, they can move to some godforsaken island and fend for themselves. Libertarianism cuts both ways --- if you don't want to pay for the FDA, fine, but don't complain when your family members die from tainted medicine.
I was originally responding to the unwarranted assumption that the FDA saved lives. This is not a frivolous argument by me. There are blogs that speak of increasing costs and declining innovation in drug research over the past few decades.
It's reasonable to address one of the big factors causing that. Namely, regulatory agencies like the FDA which place a higher priority on safety of medical treatments than on the health of the people who would need those treatments.
FICA represents payments into Social Security, which, assuming that the greedy politicians don't steal all of that money for yourself, you'll get back someday.
I'm one of those people who think you should be able to choose whether or not you want to participate in that system, but the social justice crowd who wants big brother to hold on to their money for them all disagree with me. After what happened in Crete perhaps they will get a little less trustworthy about big brother but I doubt it.
Everybody wants everybody else to pay more taxes - just not them. It's the nature of the system. Everybody wants everything else to be cut, just not their stuff.
Murphy was an optimist
Not petty name calling since I'm describing an action and not a person - once again you are taking the action of pretending to be more stupid than you are by pretending to make that mistake. What a silly game you are playing. I've got no idea what sort of person you really are because you are playing a cardboard cutout character to win some silly ego stroking game instead of discussing things honestly.
I know you cannot possibly be stupid enough to really think that the FDA is a rogue agency that does not answer to any outside force and gets it's funding by magic with no orders to follow, so I'm not accusing you of being so stupid, I'm instead accusing you of pretending be so stupid by pushing such a simplistic and unrealistic viewpoint as presumably some sort of childish game to see how many of the gullible you can convince.
A "devils advocate" is supposed to discuss things logically instead of throwing up a miasma of ridiculous and misleading rubbish that has little relationship with reality. It does not mean being a silly shit stirrer, such a thing is pointless unless it's a sociopathic game to make people angry.
I know you cannot possibly be stupid enough to really think that the FDA is a rogue agency that does not answer to any outside force and gets it's funding by magic with no orders to follow, so I'm not accusing you of being so stupid, I'm instead accusing you of pretending be so stupid by pushing such a simplistic and unrealistic viewpoint as presumably some sort of childish game to see how many of the gullible you can convince.
It can't possibly be that the FDA kills more people than it helps? That can't possibly be it.
FICA represents payments into Social Security, which, assuming that the greedy politicians don't steal all of that money for yourself, you'll get back someday.
Which may be a big assumption. I'm not in a panic about it, and I do think I'll see some return, but I'm expecting it to be a net loss. All of my retirement plans (probably 20 - 25 years out) are formulated without any consideration for Social Security. If or what I get from it is such a huge unknown right now I'd rather assume I won't get any and then have it be a bonus rather than count on it and be disappointed.
I'm one of those people who think you should be able to choose whether or not you want to participate in that system, but the social justice crowd who wants big brother to hold on to their money for them all disagree with me.
I'm with you there, actually. The historic rate of return from that system is pretty lousy, and I like choices. I'm also realistic enough to recognize there are a lot of people who, if not pushed into it, wouldn't manage to save anything and I'll still end up paying for it down the line either way.
Everybody wants everybody else to pay more taxes - just not them. It's the nature of the system. Everybody wants everything else to be cut, just not their stuff.
No arguments about that.
The Quirkz Handbook of Self-Improvement for People Who Are Already Pretty Okay
What a pleasure to talk to someone who actually says when they agree, doesn't call me names, and appears to be entirely rational and intelligent. My faith in the human race has been restored, at least for a little while
Yep, the Social Security fund contains a bunch of IOU's from all the politicians and committees who took the money out to use for something else.
Lots of folks don't understand that included in the National Debt is money we owe ourselves from similar shenanigans.
Murphy was an optimist
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Please just give up to the Forrest Gump "dumb is good" acting and discuss things honestly. You cannot possibly be so ignorant as to actually believe that line you've written while learning enough to be able to type in the words.
What a truly disgusting little game. What would your parents who would remember polio victims think of you playing this game? How ashamed of you would they be at you trying to mislead the gullible on this issue?
As to the emergency contraception, the key is that it has to be taken rather soon after the act of sex and that it is relatively benign. The delay induced by getting a prescription is long enough to allow for pregnancy. And if I actually were some eugenicist breeding humans for less stupidity, I sure would make contraceptives as freely available to the stupid as possible.
The FDA is far from alone in compromising my life for people who really should know better. For example, consider this warning sign. It's an actual sign that says:
This Disney Resort contains chemicals known to the state of California to cause cancer and birth defects or other reproductive harm.
Proposition 65, California Health & Safety Code Section 25249.6 et seq.
The crazy soccer mom blog that follows that picture is hilarious.
Anyway, the point of the sign is that somewhere inside that Disney Resort are some cleaning chemicals, pesticides, or whatever, which, if you feed them in high concentrations to rats seem to correlate with bad things. California doesn't actually know anything outside of that or care.
There's no consideration of whether any of Disney's guests are exposed to those chemicals or not. Ultimately, it's just a way to scare people who don't know any better. It's just useless as public health information because everybody has those chemicals.
It's not much, but bits of our society are wasted making and putting up those signs.
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