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US Charges Edward Snowden With Espionage
cold fjord writes "Further developments in the controversy engulfing Edward Snowden and the NSA. From the Washington Post: "Federal prosecutors have filed a sealed criminal complaint against Edward Snowden, the former National Security Agency contractor who leaked a trove of documents about top-secret surveillance programs, and the United States has asked Hong Kong to detain him on a provisional arrest warrant,... Snowden was charged with espionage, theft and conversion of government property ... The complaint was filed in the Eastern District of Virginia, a jurisdiction where Snowden's former employer, Booz Allen Hamilton, is headquartered, and a district with a long track record in prosecuting cases with national security implications...it is thought that he is still in the Chinese territory. Hong Kong has its own legislative and legal systems but ultimately answers to Beijing, under the so-called "one country, two systems" arrangement. The leaks have sparked national and international debates about the secret powers of the NSA to infringe on the privacy of both Americans and foreigners. Officials from President Obama down have said they welcomed the opportunity to explain the importance of the programs, and the safeguards they say are built into them. Skeptics, including some in Congress, have said the NSA has assumed power to soak up data about Americans that were never intended under the law."""
To know that's what was going to happen.
I thought that only those with something to hide needed privacy?
With the trial of Private Manning underway, and Snowden now indicted, it looks like it will be a summer full of heated discussion.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
We were no expecting USA to hail him as a hero obviously. It is hilarious though how he exposed Obama's lies today about the NSA not being capable of spying on citizens though.
I hope if in this country Zimmerman can get a public and (hopefully) fair trial, then Snowden should as well.
is that you, Dick? How's the shotgun?
What, no computer fraud? I wonder how the prosecutor missed that - he could have accused him of HACKING and CYBERTERRORISM!!!!11111!
If Obama's arming of al-Qaeda friendly rebels in Syria isn't "adhering to their enemies, giving them aid...", I don't know what is.
In Liberty, Rene
Only if you consider American citizens enemies of the American government.
And by 'enemies' you mean the American people.
Obama could have said:
"I just learned of the existence of the NSA and its spying programs from the news. I'm shocked, SHOCKED! I'm going to pardon Snowden and clean this up!"
FYI, the petition to pardon Snowden is just a few thousand short of the 100,000 mark as of midday on Friday. There is still time to sign. Probably a waste of time, but it might be worth it. https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/pardon-edward-snowden/Dp03vGYD
What bull shit, they agreed to it and have done so every year since 2001.
Typical politicking now, trying to distance themselves from any controversy so they get re-elected. They should be the ones charged and throw in front of a firing squad.
"Action without philosophy is a lethal weapon; philosophy without action is worthless."
Just in case you weren't aware, there is a White House petition to pardon Snowden that is almost at the 100K signature threshold:
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/pardon-edward-snowden/Dp03vGYD
You apparently don't know what it is, then. You can't even identify what "enemy" is being comforted. Perhaps the enemy is the American people. There is no war declared that permits the legal definition of an enemy, and not much evidence that the spying has any actual effectiveness at combating terrorism. It is massive surveillance of all forms of electronic communication. Professional terrorists are unlikely to use communication that will be intercepted in this way. The information will almost certainly eventually be used for criminal prosecutions, probably including everything from drug to copyright violations.
Snowden swore an oath when he took his security clearance. It is essentially the same one sworn by soldiers.
The first thing he does is swear to protect the constitution against all enemies both foreign and domestic. And finally to follow the orders of his chain of command and perform the duties of his position.
Snowden was put in a position where following the last part of the oath would violate the first part, and following the first part would violate the last part.
And he chose his duty to the constitution and the citizens it protects over the dictates of his chain of command. And that makes him a hero.
The problem with treason is that it sounds like it might be a political crime, which makes it more likely for a nation to give him political asylum. This really complicates extradition. Of course, it is a political crime, but the US Government doesn't want to go there right now.
Obama has openly admitting to planning to arm Al-Queda associated rebels in Syria. That is the DEFINITION of treason. Edward Snowden has not given anyone weapons. He has merely aired Obama's dirty laundry. If this country was run by the people rather than a bunch of plutocrats, Obama, Bush, Cheney, et. al would be on trial for crimes against humanity.
How people voted for this guy is beyond me. I knew Obama was a liar from day one. Democrats and republicans work for the same causes and the same people; any perceived differences are merely staged for the benefit of the American voters and never go deeper than the surface. It is classic divide and conquer and the end result is that this country is effectively run by a two-party dictatorship that stays in power by manipulating and rigging the elections to exclude competition and creating staged conflicts on trivial issues like gay marriage (which *IS* a trivial issue compared to the fact that this country is descending into a police state). When it comes to the things that matter, both parties act in lockstep and it is NOT to the benefit of the American people or to the cause of freedom. The only people the Republicrat party answers to is their corporate masters.
In the empire of lies, truth is treason.
-Ron Paul
Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
Haven't you been paying attention? They are
"When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back!" -- Cave Johnson
With the trial of Private Manning underway, and Snowden now indicted, it looks like it will be a summer full of heated discussion.
Here is a discussion topic that seems to be somewhat overlooked at the moment.
Why did a low ranking army private like Manning have access to the high level info that he leaked? Why did a low level private contractor like Snowden have access to the high level info that he leaked? Sure an army private or low level contractor may need access to some secret info to do their jobs but both seem to have had access to or knowledge of way too much.
I'd say our constitution-trampling government is aiding and comforting our enemies more than Snowden.
He exposed crimes against the American people perpetrated by the US government. He is the exact opposite of a traitor.
"Ancient hebrewism has the man that rapes a young girl keep her."
You break it, you bought it.
The reason prosecutors charged him with espionage is because its a much easier case to make, but this realy is a textbook case of treason. Just look at the damn US Constitution
"Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort." If Snowden hasn't committed treason using this definition, I don't know what is then.
Who is the US engaged in war with that he has given aid and comfort to?
The war against drugs, is a war against Americans sure... So all of America.
Is it possible to commit treason when exposing violations of constitutional law?
The fundamental issue is US law sits on a foundation of honesty and transparent prosecution of the law.
A truth is the issue of meta data in these large quantities is powerful as heck.
In good and honest hands, no problem. In the hands of bad guys, big problem.
The good guys today should establish controls and laws to keep this tool set from the hand of the bad guys.
Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't. Mark Twain.
The only way this is treason is if the American public are enemies.
The real traitors are those who are giving aid to enemies of the US (Mexican drug cartels, arming Syrian rebels, etc.)
Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
I have to say that if he had I would have died from shock. For any figurehead in the oval office to stray from the script is unthinkable regardless of party affiliation.
Report a crime, go to jail.
"The entire world charges US Government with espionage". Is time to UN and world organizations to show that have pants and stop being US government/corporations puppets. Or just everyone stop pretending, nothing of this have anything to do with justice, is just a wrong sign put on top of things that had nothing to do with that word.
Then you're an idiot. Who are the "enemies" in this case supposed to be? The Chinese government that President Obama just had a meeting with? The American public that's being spied on? The whole world?
He exposed crimes against the American people perpetrated by the US government. He is the exact opposite of a traitor.
He's more of a patriot than the whole of Congress and the president.
http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2773253&cid=39629001 ..."
"To start with the bottom line: the very computers that make the new NSA facilities possible mean that the NSA's formal purpose is essentially soon to be at an end. Nothing you or I say here will reverse that trend. The only issue is how soon the NSA as a whole recognizes that fact, and then how people there choose to deal with that reality.
A further elaboration on that theme:
http://www.pdfernhout.net/on-dealing-with-social-hurricanes.html
The increase in global spying is only one technology-driven trend of many going on right now. Other ones have all sorts of implications. That is why we need better open source tools to help figure things out and make better decisions about what health is and how to shape healthy behavior with (as Lawrence Lessig said in Code 2.0) rules, norms, prices and architecture.
http://pcast.ideascale.com/a/dtd/The-need-for-FOSS-intelligence-tools-for-sensemaking-etc./76207-8319
A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
They are going for the big stuff and things that let the bypass some rights and parts of the courts system.
What you call "United States"? The corporations, their puppet government, or the population? For the last option i'd say that is a hero, and others that work for NSA are the traitors. But you probably think that the ones that fought against England in 1776 or against slavery in 1860 were traitors too.
He'll live out the rest of his days in relative comfort and obscurity in a more enlightened corner of the world. Iceland already said they'd take him.
If you build it, nerds will come. Soylentnews.org
Only if you consider American citizens enemies of the American government.
Apparently you confuse the Taliban, al Qaida, the People's Republic of China, North Korea, Iran, Syria, et. al., with American citizens. You tell the world and everybody knows, including the very terrorists against whom you are trying to protect the American people. He could have gone to the inspector general or Congress, but didn't. Who knows what the damage will be?
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Edward Snowden charges the US Govt with espionage.
Who is the US engaged in war with that he has given aid and comfort to?
The US is at war with al Qaida under the terms of Public Law 107-40 passed by the 107th Congress, which under well settled legal precedent is equivalent to a declaration of war. When Snowden exposed US national security secrets to the world, al Qaida wasn't wearing ear muffs. They found out too, so they are no doubt working on countermeasures and workarounds.
Private Manning is facing similar circumstances.
SEC. 2. AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES.
(a) In General.--That the President is authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
The American People? Are we the enemy?
Only if you consider American citizens enemies of the American government.
Well, if you look back at history all US governments have fallen because of American citizens. Is it any wonder they are worried about you? Votes are lethal weapons to a democratic government and they need to know that yours are pointing in the right direction.
for the crimes it's committed?
The NSA is charging Snowden with spying?
I suppose " the logic of their position demanded it."
May the Maths Be with you!
You're probably trolling, but the simple answer here is
a) He has not levied war against any of the States or the whole of them, and
b) If he has given aid or comfort to enemies, then you should be able to name those and state the aid and/or comfort given them.
If you can spin either of those into a charge that will hold up in court, I'll be impressed.
May the Maths Be with you!
I was waiting for a shoe to drop.
Only if you consider American citizens enemies of the American government.
Apparently you confuse the Taliban, al Qaida, the People's Republic of China, North Korea, Iran, Syria, et. al., with American citizens. You tell the world and everybody knows, including the very terrorists against whom you are trying to protect the American people. He could have gone to the inspector general or Congress, but didn't. Who knows what the damage will be?
The Inspector General and Congress are part of the problem.
Terrorism isn't dangerous on its own. It never was and never will be. The point of terrorism is to provoke a disproportionate response that harms the target more than the terrorists would be able to do directly. The world's terrorists' primary partners are western governments. The United States have spent over a trillion dollars in the last 10 years to "fight terrorism," with absolutely no indication that they're doing anything other than breeding resentment and planting the seeds for greater terrorism in the future. If you want to know why world leaders are willing to spend so much money to "fight" something that causes similar physical harm to bee stings, look at who received those trillion dollars and their relationships with governments.
Additionally, it's extremely unlikely that anything Snowden shared about spying will have any impact on our espionage efforts against "terrorists." So far it's all been information about spying on Americans and foreign noncombatants. Furthermore, everyone who's cared to pay attention in the last twenty years already believed the strong but indirect evidence of exactly this sort of spying. In other words: the terrorists already knew about these programs, or something like them. The only people who see this as a revelation are naive American citizens and our allies, and the only thing in jeopardy is the NSA's unjustified unaccountability.
"I zero-index my hamsters" - Willtor (147206)
Was Daniel Ellsberg a SPY when he published the Pentagon Papers?
Does 'spy' mean 'embarrassing to the government'?
Who is the US engaged in war with that he has given aid and comfort to?
The US is at war with al Qaida under the terms of Public Law 107-40
Yes, yet who is al Qaida?
It is anyone that says they are?
Is it anyone the FBI/DHS/NSA says is?
"by such nations, organizations or persons."
All must be tied back to 9/11/2001 which at this point is hard as heck to do unless your cast your net so far that anyone anywhere and anytime might be implicated.
That is the issue I have with the six degrees of Kevin Bacon stuff. The paths are short but who knows if anything travels from end to end. And then is this more like a grade school whisper game when garbled phrases and noises come out...
Real problem... apparently some bad or co-opted laws intended to address a real problem and more real fear. /. gives me pause at times.
I sure am glad I am far removed from those that know the truth on both sides. Although
Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't. Mark Twain.
And they're going to enforce it how? China's going to extradite him? Riiiiight...
'the enemy' is anyone who challenges or threatens the current power base and structure.
when our country was being formed, the people and the government were at close enough levels of power to each other and that made the revolution possible.
now look at us. there's zero chance of The People being able to overthrow a wicked government.
the only real hope of turn-around is from the inside. someone good has to be at supreme command and he has to care enough to reverse this trend.
(do you think it will happen?)
--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
Snowden swore an oath when he took his security clearance. It is essentially the same one sworn by soldiers.
The first thing he does is swear to protect the constitution against all enemies both foreign and domestic. And finally to follow the orders of his chain of command and perform the duties of his position.
Snowden was put in a position where following the last part of the oath would violate the first part, and following the first part would violate the last part.
I am not an expert of US laws, but in reasonable countries, there is a hierarchy of laws. An oath cannot be enforced against a law, and a law cannot be enforced against the constitution.
Please read all the referenced Sections of US Law included in that PDF. You'll eventually get to the US Constitution and Treason.
I knew the usa was monitorying storing copying listening etc.. to the whole planet in 1990.
Whats new...
Take whats fact in 1950, and multiply it in 1000x.
Did you really think the usa wasnt monitoring anyone?
And btw, Russia has more spies in USA today than the cold war, so if your local IT shop or workplace has a russian working that claims to love USA, but owns a house and has money, and appears well off, then he most likely has a second pay check paid somewhere, and he picks up his cash via 'bogus ebay' sales or cash pick ups at the baths.
Yeah those Babushka dolls really arent worth $7900 on ebay.
Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
No; by voting for Obama, I was simply trying to make sure that Romney didn't become president.
It wasn't about believing Obama (though I can name you quite a few things he has done well on), it was about being no less than horrified that Romney might somehow get in and roofrack the whitehouse dog on his first day in office.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
Domestic spying is the ultimate tool for coercion and of corruption and it is made possible by the blessing of the telcos. The remedy of all this spying will be "net neutrality". To prevent "net neutrality" telcos have made a deal with the devil.
Dude, spying on iraq before the war is different to spying on people in UK or Singapore, ok.
The USA isnt going to do a full invasion of the UK.
And no one cares if the USA spies like hell on iraq or iran etc...
But dont spy on top tier trading countries the same way.
Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
An individual or group who believes it is acting in the interests of the state cannot objectively evaluate whether it is correct. Snowden did what he thought was right, based on his understanding of documents that he says came from Executive Branch organizations. We can assume from this official charge that he compromised some security, not that he shared factual information. And he could be prosecuted just based on his own statements, with his defense being that he fabricated the documents to support things he actually misunderstood.
On the other hand, a government organization is just as incapable of deciding whether it is acting in the interest of the country or just in its own self-preservation. After all, the American revolutionaries would be called domestic terrorists today, since the purpose was to overthrow the government. Taxation without representation, and other abuses of King George's court against the colonies, were clearly not in the interests of the governed people. In hindsight, Britain lost the tax revenue and resources of the colonies, and lots of colonists got shot. So it wasn't good for either side.
We had a little disagreement about slavery and states rights, with opinions so staunchly held that we fought each other. And both sides thought they were right, that they were acting in the best interests of the people. Timothy McVeigh thought he was going to spark a revolt against tyranny, and all he accomplished was killing a lot of people. Maybe he was right, but that stopped the moment he set the bomb off and failed. If he had tried another approach, maybe he could have started a change that meant something and been a hero. But no, he's just a delusional mass murderer.
Note: I'm not saying McVeigh was right about anything. He saw a government that had to change direction, and thought he could start turning that boat around. He believed he was just as good for the country as George III did, and as the revolutionaries did.
If Snowden exposed abuses without compromising US interests, he's a hero. But we don't know everything he has, and the impact it will have. He could expose abuses, and reveal information that is as damaging as what the Rosenbergs revealed, and they were executed.
Of course, exactly what the Rosenbergs revealed is still in question, even after numerous memoirs, interviews, transcripts, etc. Their intent seems pretty clear, but what they accomplished is not. And that's really the point. History will reveal the intent of BOTH parties. The truth may never be known, or multiple truths may be known as in the case of the Rosenbergs.
He can't be both a hero and a traitor, so until we know the whole story, we can't really declare him anything. It's way too early to take sides.
You mean like all the other people who failed to gain traction that way? Repeating someone else's failure is not usually considered a viable strategy for success. Please tell us why you think otherwise.
Nope, you can't hold people accountable for things that other people might do. Sorry, it doesn't work that way.
There's no -1 for "I don't get it."
So who sold computers, punch cards, boots, oil, etc.. to Germany during and before ww2?
Even if it was via 3rd parties which shipped it to Germany.
Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
http://cryptome.org/2013/06/snowden-complaint.pdf
Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
Huh? He certainly didn't levy war. As far as adhering to enemies, please identify which enemies he adhered to.
There is NO case for treason here.
No treason is extremely narrowly defined. Even the Rosenbergs, who found guilty of giving the Russkies A Bomb secrets were not charged with treason.
The last American citizen to be convicted of treason was found guilty of torturing American POWs in Japan during WWII.
Public Law 107-40 does not mention al Qaida or identify any specific enemy. It is useless for the purpose of trying to prove treason.
Treason requires not mere revelation of information or provision of aid, but an actual intentional betrayal of loyalty. Snowden did not engage in this.
You may want to study the following.
http://law.jrank.org/pages/2195/Treason-Elements-offense.html
From which the salient point is:
"In treason cases, however, the prosecution must prove that the accused had a specific intent to levy war or aid enemies."
If i were him, i'd appear before court via a video feed. If they actually say he committed a crime, he would simply need to say he was a whistle blower. Lets see them counter that.
Complete utter horseshit.
Civilian contractors sign a non-disclosure agreement form SF-312 after being cleared and getting briefed on their obligations.
That's it.
Where's the "+1, Depressingly true" mod option when you need it?
you're right to take issue with this:
but you left out one glaring option that would have allowed him to keep his (IMHO fictional/hired) girlfriend and sweet Booze/Allen job and...AND write a bestseller and be on TV news spouting his opinions...
anonymous leak
too late now...his best bet is to prove he was being defrauded and manipulated to do this by criminals/chinese/illuminati...otherwise he should anticipate Federal Prison
why do people think he's going to get waterboarded at a black site like Kalid Shake Mohammed or w/e? There really is no reason to assume the current admin will do the worst of what the *previous* admin did...especially when the current admin has allowed so much to become public and eliminated torture practices...
Thank you Dave Raggett
They did, really? Then I suppose they're really grateful to Snowden for giving them that opportunity, and not angry at him at all.
But wait, if they welcomed that opportunity so much, then why didn't they tell us of the programs in the first place?
Conversion of government property - so he didn't just take the data, he took it to Hong Kong that uses metric, and converted it to kilograms and metres. The bastard! Makes it harder to put him six feet under!
Don't go saying he's a 'patriot.' That's one of those keywords and you'll get him audited.
Re 1) He told us something that everyone who cares already knows
When commenters on the net would talk of using encryption would result in interest by the US gov - now confirmed.
When commenters on the net would talk of US software and hardware firms helping the NSA voluntary or under colour or letter of the US law - now confirmed.
When commenters on the net would talk of US international telcos helping the NSA voluntary or under colour or letter of the US law - now confirmed.
When commenters on the net would talk of US domestic telcos helping the NSA voluntary or under colour or letter of the US law - now confirmed.
When commenters on the net would talk of a flood of contractors been of much more importance within the NSA - now confirmed.
2) Absolutely no important change will come as a result of his disclosure, except for perhaps the police state getting worse than it already is.
The NSA will have to double up on staff doing routine admin work, hire in outside psychological testing for all staff. Long term the NSA will be filled with smart, patriotic individuals who can only obey orders. Less academic creativity will be a great loss to the USA. Self censorship will start to take a toll on any NSA projects. The NSA will fall in the the state of self doubt that filled the UK in the 1970-80s re internal staff trust issues
Re Essentially, he threw his entire life away for absolutely no reason.
He was a technical assistant for the CIA and the CIA knows how to play long term. A limited hangout over NSA issues most academics, CS, telco workers and protesters knew to be technical possible?
A list of US brands helping their gov. A list of domestic capabilities that expand from http://cryptome.org/jya/nsa-elint.htm August, 1972.
A lot is now confirmed by the US gov by having to make an example of this leak.
I wonder what the US gov could spun if they said its photoshopped and asked for the ID card back?
Recall how the Former British intelligence officer Katharine Gun (GCHQ Oriental languages/Mandarin translator) was treated after her “obtain results favorable to US goals” re UN/Iraq day in court?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katharine_Gun
Charges against her were dropped the day her trial opened at the Old Bailey. The UK had nothing confirmed in court.
As for the NSA terms like "Texas Cryptologic Center" re the former chip plant at San Antonio are now more public.
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/jun/21/gchq-cables-secret-world-communications-nsa
Spying on that many innocent people is an act of war on the innocent people.
The americas should be happy that he exposed this horror, so they can change their politics.
Same will be said about other countries when information about them is leaked.
Last thing: my friends don't spy on me.
Those who spy one me are terrorists.
Privacy is terrorism.
Espionage is an over charging, clearly. You've committed espionage when you've divulged state secrets FOR ANOTHER COUNTRY. So even though Israel is a friendly nation, we still kick their spies out and or jail them.
http://definitions.uslegal.com/e/espionage/
But Snowden didn't release state secrets to and for a foreign country. He did it for Americans.
It's prosecutorial overreach and worse for the prosecution, is likely to be perceived as such by potential juries. I feel an acquittal on the espionage charge forthcoming, even in absentia.
So the question arises at least in my mind- is this a dog and pony show, with Snowden perhaps unwittingly playing the role of a dog?
Is the government using Snowden to leak this information and if so, why?
To acclimate citizens to this level of scrutiny? To see if we'll swallow it? Maybe.
Or is it a bid on the part of , possibly some subset of, the intelligence community to get the program revised and toned down because they're afraid of the corrupting power unlimited access to the most personal secrets of lawmakers and other power players could put into the hands of a Cheney or a set of true believers like the neocons?
It's not that far fetched. Consider that the neocons twice now have attempted, once successfully, to foment wars based on false intelligence they produced through Team B efforts, efforts which the intelligence community deeply resented and still resent especially since many Americans wrongly cite the CIA as the producer of faulty intelligence in the run up to the war in Iraq.
http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/military/news/2004/08/18/988/its-time-to-bench-team-b/
http://www.proudprimate.com/Placards/teamb-cahn.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Team_B
What this means is they're liars who will play WAY out of bounds to get their way, where WAY out of bounds includes LYING and DISTORTING intelligence and using intelligence to destroy domestic political opponents including exposing the identities of covert operators working for the CIA:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valerie_Plame
see: Plamegate.
Historically, that didn't and can't now sit well with people at the CIA who consider accurate, unbiased intelligence assessments to be the crown jewel of nation's defense capability.
So is has the level of invasiveness which this program makes possible been gamed out somewhere at Langley, with one side playing the neocons and Cheney and using the techniques of deception, lying, distortion of information and targeting of dissenters through any means, legal or illegal, short (we think) of murder and the other side the CIA and other intelligence agencies upholding the letter and spirit of the law?
Perhaps such games revealed a gaping strategic disadvantage through which a coup by a Cheney and the neocons would be successful 100% of the time.
After all, we game out scenarios against all enemies foreign and domestic, if it's a threat to the US, it gets considered.
Perhaps one of the conclusions was- this intelligence program is a serious, mortal threat to the Republic.
Perhaps they took the result of this gaming to the President, who agreed with their conclusions. Perhaps a plan was hatched to subvert it, all the while making it look like they're only and intensely interested in doing the opposite.
I know it sounds too weird to be true, but this IS how intelligence agencies and covert missions work on a good day. This is the games they play.
If Obama tried to unilaterally quietly retire the program, it would just come back for the next administration who wanted it, and we know what admin would want it. Without the p
I married a young girl. 33 years later and she's not as pretty but she's like an old Muscle Car. You crank her up and stomp on the pedal and you're in for a ride.
Knock the edge off all you square pegs and you will fit in the round holes we intended you for. Saying danger danger doesnt even work any more.
Your right. We should all get bar codes tattooed on our foreheads so we can be scanned, as well as GPS tracking devices and webcams so we can be sure there aren't any terrorists around.
The only damage being done here is to long held beliefs that we are supposed to be BETTER than those totalitarian/authoritarian/surveillance states that we always here about.
Protection my ass. You will never be able to protect against one asshole with mental issues and a little chemical know how. And using that as some excuse to systematically strip the rights and freedoms away from citizens is idiotic nonsense. More to the point, if the government really was looking out for American lives then it would take their trillion dollar "protection" programs and divert it towards curing cancer and heart disease, which kills well over a million people a year in this country.
We weren't doing this crap when a militaristic superpower called the USSR was our Big Bad Enemy(tm), and they had a LOT more resources. There is NO EXCUSE for doing it now.
~X~
strong words!
first off, I thank you for agreeing with my other contentions in my post...good to know you're not a troll
to the point...
what part of what I typed makes me a 'blind fool' and **what is your evidence**?
let's see it
Thank you Dave Raggett
evidence?
not even one link...and one link to one incident means nothing...Obama has been cleaning up Bush's mess...mostly by **making it public** what the government has been doing SINCE 9/11....BECAUSE OF THE PATRIOT ACT
I want evidence and logic that takes historical fact into account...current policy and what came before it and who changed it...
let me repeat: identify current policy, identify previous policy, note who changed the policy and allowed it to become public
methinks you are a snowdentroll
Thank you Dave Raggett
b) If he has given aid or comfort to enemies, then you should be able to name those and state the aid and/or comfort given them.
If you can spin either of those into a charge that will hold up in court, I'll be impressed.
Had he stopped at saying "The US government is spying on its own citizens!" you might have a point. But he told the Hong Kong press that the US was spying on both Hong Kong and China. You could make a legal case that informing China of this secret information was "giving them aid". It certainly weakened Obama's "Stop hacking us and stealing our stuff! We're victims of agression!" argument to Xi. And whether you like/agree with Snowden or not, and I for one do not, he admitted stealing 4 laptops full of data that I am 100% sure his employment contract denied him the ability to take. Whether he's found guilty of treason or not is unsure. My gut feeling is he'll beat that charge, if he ever faces it. But he will for sure be convicted for taking the 4 laptops with him. It'll be interesting to see what happens. Some analysts think that China will just let the Hong Kong courts handle this and live with their decision. I think it will be tied up in the courts for years in Hong Kong. He'll ask for political asylum and those cases take many years to resolve.
The US government has officially invoked the Espionage Act in response to whistleblower Edward Snowden’s leaks of the massive and continuing violation by the NSA of the National Security Act, plus federal court rulings over the last few years, as well as portions of the onerous USA PATRIOT Act.
We are constantly bombarded with the disingenuous drivel about our country being “a nation of laws,” yet consistently we see that the laws are selectively applied against the enemies of the plutocrats or overclass!
Under existing laws, and after both the public admissions and public lies uttered by the Director of National Intelligence, Gen. James Clapper and the NSA Director Gen. Alexander, the immediate arrests of these two culprits should be undertaken.
Not to arrest Clapper and Alexander is in complete contradistinction of existing law.
To fully uphold the aforementioned laws, impeachment proceedings should commence against President Obama, Vice President Biden and Attorney General Holder, along with the arrests of previous federal lawbreakers, Donald Rumsfeld, George W. Bush, Dick Cheney and Roberto Gonsales.
Obviously, as these actions aren’t underway, America is not a nation of laws, and any such proclamation is blatantly fictional!
Just as President Obama has repeatedly stood before the American people and brazenly and falsely proclaimed that the banksters broke no laws (perhaps one should say his banksters, since he is in their pocket?), his administration once again flaunts those very laws he has sworn an oath to uphold (and claims to understand).
Lawlessness rules across America, with the overclass making the rules.
Since the passage of the national defense legislation in 2006, during the Bush administration, which exempted the Department of Defense (Pentagon) from Freedom of Information Requests (FOIA), and the NSA comes under the purview and provenance of the DoD, the only possible way to ascertain when the NSA is breaking federal laws is when a whistleblower, such as Mr. Snowden, comes forward.
Obama’s holy war on whistleblowers continues unabated!
There is something about the US television coverage of this story that i find... odd. Ive seen coverage on several networks, and the anti-Snowden bias of the coverage is almost universal. Honestly Jon Stewart's daily show seems to be the only one NOT taking the "He's a traitor" stance. CNN, Fox ... Even Letterman seem to be treading very lightly and no one wants to side with Snowden even though he presents a reasonably logical and convincing case against the government. It's like the expected righty, lefty bias is out the door and there is now universal pro government bias. I find this really unsettling.
I am not an expert of US laws, but in reasonable countries, there is a hierarchy of laws. An oath cannot be enforced against a law, and a law cannot be enforced against the constitution.
And it is good to recall it sometime, the constitution cannot be enforced against the general will of the People. In other words, the Sovereign cannot adopt rules it cannot change later. Otherwise it is not the Sovereign.
Bush and Obama are vastly different.
No I do not think the Obama admin 'planned' these leaks...they released it...mostly in boring reports that only boring news reports on because when a problem gets fixed or info revealed it isn't headline news...if it bleeds it leads...
I really won't continue asking for evidence and being told 'it's right there blind fool'...you're trolling and you can try to somehow present actual evidence of 'bush and obama are the same scum' but policy and history are dead against you
You really need to accept that the world is **NOT BINARY**...Obama may not make every decision how you would want but he's the best option. That's fscking called **LIFE**...everyone has to make comprimises in decisions...even dork/trolls like you and Snowden
Supporting the best option vocally and fully doesn't make you a fucking sell out...that's more binary thinking...
I know it's easy to just embrace your angst and lump all people in power as 'them' but you're just wrong and you know it...
You are taking the cowards way out...
If you expect another response you had better have some evidence and logic to your 'Obama = Bush' claim
Thank you Dave Raggett
Professional terrorists are unlikely to use communication that will be intercepted in this way.
Sure they do, just set up pre-known phrases in advance, and you don't even to need encryption
e.g.
John is starting a new job => Akmed has sourced the fissile material
Jane is expecting the baby in July => The bomb will be on the ship making port in July.
There you go. They're only doing their job. The need to keep track of anyone who is named John or Jane, or anyone who speaks to any John or Jane, anyone who is having a baby, or anyone who knows anyone having a baby.
"The best part? I became an ordained minister while not wearing pants." -- CleverNickName
...you should see the laundry list of constitutional violations that the NSA should be charged with. And that's just the ones that have been leaked.
In SOVIET RUSSIA... erm...NSA AMERICA, the Internet logs onto YOU!
Furthermore, everyone who's cared to pay attention in the last twenty years already believed the strong but indirect evidence of exactly this sort of spying.
You mean the conspiracy nuts. Everyone knows they are just crazy and anything they say is just ridiculous lies. [end sarcasm]
-- ssoorrrryy,, dduupplleexx sswwiittcchh oonn.. -Quote found on actual fortune cookie.