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Wikileaks Aiding Snowden - Chinese Social Media Divided - Relations Strained
cold fjord writes "Despite the US cancelling his passport, Edward Snowden continues his travels aided by Wikileaks, and is leaving a trail of strained diplomatic relations in his wake. It appears China gifted the issue to Russia. From Yahoo: 'Lawyer Albert Ho, ... a Hong Kong legislator ... told reporters he was approached by Snowden several days ago, and that the American had sought assurances ... whether he could leave the city freely if he chose to do so... Snowden later told Ho an individual claiming to represent the Hong Kong government had contacted him and indicated he should leave the city, and wouldn't be stopped ... Ho said he believed the middleman was acting on Beijing's orders.' From the NYT: Julian Assange, ...said in an interview ... 'that he had raised Mr. Snowden's case with Ecuador's government and that his group had helped arrange the travel documents.' From WSJ: 'Edward Snowden has generated more than a million posts on one of China's biggest social media platforms... Sina Weibo, a popular Chinese microblogging service, exploded with activity on Sunday as Mr. Snowden left ... Mr. Snowden was hailed as a hero ... last week, but posts on Sunday and Monday were divided... "All crows are black," said a number of users, citing an Chinese old saying, to describe both American and Chinese government's surveillance programs. ... "Snowden has helped China so much. Why did we let him go?" said one ... Some suggested that China should keep Mr. Snowden as a weapon against repeated accusations of China hacking U.S. companies. More extreme users complained that China is "too soft on the U.S." "Russia is a real strong country to accept him," ... Another popular term: "hot potato," reflecting relief that Hong Kong wouldn't have to stand against U.S. efforts to take him into custody. Some users criticized Mr. Snowden for fleeing.' From the Guardian: 'Snowden's escape from Hong Kong infuriated US politicians, while China focused on condemning Washington over his latest disclosures, which suggested the NSA had hacked into Chinese mobile phone companies ... Moscow was also drawn into the controversy after it emerged that Snowden's passport had been revoked before he left Hong Kong and he did not have a visa for Russia. But Russia appeared indifferent to the uproar, with one official saying Snowden was safe from the authorities as long as he remained in the transit lounge at the city's Sheremetyevo airport. Dmitry Peskov, spokesman for the Russian president, Vladimir Putin, said: "I know nothing."' From ABC: Snowden registered for the flight to Havana that leaves Moscow on Monday..."
Snowden has alerted the whole World that our freedom is a sham, and that our governments treat our privacy with total contempt. I hope he survives this episode and will be seen in the future as somebody who did more for regular people than any politician.
Smivs on the intertubes!
I wish they'd go after the NSA with as much fervor. But I guess it's easier to punish an individual.
Also.. With America 'not prying into the lives of it's own citizens', and the UK doing pretty much the same. Doesn't anybody see that they can 'share intelligence' and get the whole picture without having to break the rules?
UK: Oops, seem I picked up all of the emails any US citizen ever send in my spying bureau. Here you go US, a copy. Do you have the copy of all the UK people's communication with you?
Again, the witch hunt after Snowden is just to distract from the main issues.
Snowden is not on the plane to cuba.
And this means any secrets he may know about anything will be handed over to them. At this point he is headed to Cuba where he can give whatever Top Secret information he can to the Cubans. How can anyone see him as a hero if he's helping a government recognized as a dictatorship to build up it's spy machine capabilities, to defeat US spy machine capabilities, or both?
What impact will his knowledge have on Syrian rebel forces? What impact will his knowledge have on troops? Does he know troop positions? Whatever he knows the US government must now assume they know. I just hope not too many innocent civilians get hurt from Snowdens decisions.
29yo SWM seeking girl for serious relationship
no high school diploma
walked away from a job with one of the world's premier consulting companies
being charged for espionage by the US Government and can never return to the USA
may spend the rest of his life in jail
on the run
living on handouts from foreign governments
i'm sure the girls are backstabbing each other to get to him
According to the Guardian, Snowdon is not on the plane to Havana.
Hope he speaks Russian. Seems that his stay in Russia may have inexplicably been extended if this news report is correct.
Select from tblFriends where interesting >= 4;
At least some countries still stand for liberty.
And which would those be ? I can't seem to find **ONE**. . .
My guess: he's off to Vietnam, where he will join the entourage of the Ecuadorian foreign minister for the return to Quito this week.
Paul Gillingwater
MBA, CISSP, CISM
Never been in a prison, have you? I worked in one when I was in grad school. It's not as "romantic" as you think. Or in ways you might enjoy.
"The average reporter we talk to is 27 years old......They literally know nothing." - Ben Rhodes
I would like to point out that Edward Snowden not only has a physical resemblance to the' Gordon Freeman' character in the Half-Life Game Series, but has effectively become 'Anti-Citizen One'- in real life.
You seem to presume a lot, and based on what? What evidence do you have that he will give everything to the Cubans?
Just dumping it all out is stupid. Even an intelligent sociopath won't do that but instead use the information as bargaining chips.
I could also make similar remarks as yours and ask "who is paying you to make posts like these?".
You act as if he's the one in control of his fate.
Seeing all the implicit (eyes being turned) and explicit (ecuador, wikileaks, others) help he's getting, one could almost get the impression that the US Government (not people) is seriously unpopular around the world.
And getting revenge on a bully is always particularly sweet.
Never been in a prison, have you? I worked in one when I was in grad school. It's not as "romantic" as you think. Or in ways you might enjoy.
Snowden already is in a prisoners position. He's now the property of whatever foreign intelligence agency is protecting him and they don't have to respect his human rights. They are nice to him because he's giving them what they want. Do you really believe he's being protected out of government kindness?
Dmitry Peskov, spokesman for the Russian president, Vladimir Putin, said: "I know nothing."'
Who wrote this, summary William, Shatner?
Good people go to bed earlier.
Hanssen and Ames were handing over things like troop strength, locations of CIA operatives, etc. to the Soviets for cash. They weren't blowing the whistle to the press on an illegal internal spying program. Pretty big difference there.
The cow says "Moo." The dog says "Woof." The Timothy says "Thanks, valued customer. We appreciate your input."
And the Russians have the ability to get every secret out of him and because of what he said in the interview they have every reason to want to.
This page at the Pirate Times provides live updates.
Last two updates at the moment:
14:45 (CEST) Ecuadorian Ambassador in Vietnam states confirms that Edward Snowden has requested asylum and mentions that the USA often refused to extradite criminals including bankers.
13:10 (CEST) A plane bound for Cuba with a booking for Snowden and another person has left Moscow but with Ed Snowden apparently not on board according to Russian Television English Service
more than likely
And you're "more than likely" paid by the US government to write this stuff. Now prove me that I'm wrong.
This is the situation where weasel words come in very handy.
Ezekiel 23:20
what does an objection to consciousness look like, a coma?
Sacred cows make the best burgers.
Uh... most likely none, none, and no? Snowden knew, and revealed, what the US government was up to, their methods and scope. There's no indication that he knows the contents of the intelligence, and given that he was not an analyst, I doubt he really knows any of it. Now it's reasonable to think that his revelations might be able to help foreign governments harden their security against US spying, but so would say, publishing a paper on crypto.
"And this means any secrets he may know about anything will be handed over to them."
And those secrets would be?... I mean what else is the NSA doing that's no legal? I can see from the Boundless Informant leak, that they collected 3 billion US intercepts in March alone, and I can see that *didn't* include FISA court ones, because Boundless Informant didn't cover the FISA ones (see the FAQ with that leak).
So we haven't heard the full story here.
What was it? IRS data they grabbed? US Credit Cards? Ticket data? Political data? Faces of protestors? Commercial data? What?!
Also does anyone know his Bitcoin address so we can donate some California certified cash?
Perhaps he didn't want to spend his life in jail and later be hailed as an hero. Perhaps he just wanted that - you for instance - and your compatriots where not so ignorant and understand that he is already one and actually stand up and raised your/their voice for him - like you should have done - instead of bashing his name.
Exactly what country do you expect him to go to? There are only about 5-6 countries in the world that aren't the total lapdogs of the U.S. government (or at least in bed with them). That doesn't exactly leave him a lot of options if he wants to remain free and not have all his (very important) information just buried again.
The cow says "Moo." The dog says "Woof." The Timothy says "Thanks, valued customer. We appreciate your input."
There's nothing saying that a conscientious objector can't look out for their own well-being while also serving the good of the public at large. And the claims he has made to date have been specific accusations based on specific evidence for which he has a reasonable belief that making them public will help to avert problems that will affect the public, which is exactly how proper whistle-blowing should be done.
You're asking him to fall on his own sword after realizing the issues with the organizations he was in, which is entirely unreasonable.
Is it just the USA that doesn't understand the traditional use of Passports and Visas?
A Visa was only required to 'Enter' the destination country. As Snowden was never going to enter Russia (transit lounges are no-mans land) he didn't need one. No reason to prevent him flying to Russia.
A Passport should not be needed to leave a country. Afterall, you are LEAVING, what cause to stop you?
On arrival in Russa, he's not entering the country, therefore no need for a Passport again.
I'm not aware of any other country that has destroyed the free travel rights of people as much as the US. Even to fly from Canada to Cuba the US has the 'aquired' the right to deny you flights, because it's close enough to their airspace. And as the airlines are so terrified of loosing landing rights to US international airports they comply.
I agree with you. If you truly feel you're doing something which is in the best interest of your country and or the world then you should be prepared to go to prison.
Seems reasonable. Tomorrow morning, when you wake up and say goodbye to your kids before going to work, please let them know that "papa may not be coming home because we does something good for your country and the world, and as such he may be locked in jail forever right this afternoon" or else you can tell them "see you home later for dinner because I have a shitty, non-important job that doesn't really add anything to society so you don't need to fear for my security".
Nice country you live in btw.
I'm sure the local intelligence services would be interested in speaking to him, but I think it's much more likely governments will consider what they always consider first with any sort of newsworthy foreign policy: domestic politics. There are places where pissing off the US and standing up to US government power will go down very well with the voters, especially in places where it fits with the governing party's narrative.
If he had just wanted to "inflict maximum damage on his country" he could have just posted all his intelligence data to Wikileaks instead of vetting it through a responsible newspaper.
The cow says "Moo." The dog says "Woof." The Timothy says "Thanks, valued customer. We appreciate your input."
It is my personal opinion that Snowden (and even Assange) will only be safe as long as Correa is in power in Quinto.
But as a history of Equador (and frankly entire Latin America) predicts from the past -- it will not be too long before the power will change due to hunta (as 1972-1979), or removal from the office (like Abdalá Bucaram) or a continues power struggle (Rosalía Arteaga / Fabián Alarcón).
Either way, Equadorian history predicts that the next government will be pro-American.
No, they won't 'keep him for free', but will gladly offer him sanctaury, particularly as his presence there is going to be a constant source of annoyance to the US, a country they dislike and distrust.
And no, I don't think I'm naive.
Snowden has let us all see that none of our data or online activity is remotely private and that our information is everything and everywhere. Because various governments share intelligence, it means for example that a UK citizen (whose data is sort of 'legally protected' from UK surveillance agencies) could find his data being forwarded to him by say the US government. Because shared intelligence from a foreign source is not subject to the level of legal scrutiny and constraint as information gathered by UK sources, it could immediately become more accessable to UK agencies. And this works the other way round. It means that safeguards put in place to 'protect' a country's own citizens can be more easily circumvented.
Smivs on the intertubes!
This is a US problem. I stopped caring about a week ago. If he's broke the law, issue an international arrest warrant. If he hasn't, don't.
And that's quite possibly the worst /. summary I've ever seen in that it would take me about 5 readings to even get the gist of what you are trying to convey. Quotes should be minimal, pertinent, and not obscure the actual fact of the matter, and summaries should be short, enticing, easy-to-read statings of the matter and (maybe) a small, relevant quote or two at most.
So basically, you're saying he should get himself shot because he believes mass survaillance is wrong, and that not being willing to get shot makes him a criminal? Do you really think MLK wanted to get shot?
On the other hand, a native English speaker and in addition a computer engineer could be very useful in the Russian educational system.
Or perhaps the people of the world don't like getting spied on, and are willing to look the other way if the man who notified them is passing through.
the property of whatever foreign intelligence agency is protecting him and they don't have to respect his human rights.
So...the same as us, but with some perks thrown in.
From there:
Hoo boy. I'm almost beginning to feel sorry for the US diplomatic establishment. After HK's eloquent fuck-you-and-lolno to the states, EC brings a bigger one.
I don't think Clinton's ordering the spicy soup today—plain noodles will do. Something about the excess perspiration these past few days...
You can hold down the "B" button for continuous firing.
watch it bud, or else we'll have a story how John McAfee is illegally mining bitcoins with a ::Cue::Cat and almost has enough stockpiled to buy *pple!
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
He will have no peace.
It is fascinating that of all your posts in the past month they are almost all ones trying to paint Snowden as the enemy, or being an apologist for PRISM even if its in the sense of "it would be ok if they had just told us about it".
And quite the presence in this thread very quickly after its posting.
You are either a front account, or someone buying into the spin 100%. Snowden is a subcontracted tech consultant, not some sort of inner circle NSA operative gone amok. There is jack shit in his head, unless he has some sort of eidetic memory.
Preferably, those liberties should extend to immigrants as well as natives.
The US is the only place I have ever been where that is apparently not the case. I was quite shocked to hear politicians and government officials on the news at one point explaining that the protections of the US constitution did not apply for foreigners in the US. While it is understandable that things like voting and extended habitation rights do depend on citizenship laws concerning the rights of someone accused of a crime, or freedom of speech have to be the same for everyone - it's fundamental to justice. They are called human, not US citizen, rights for a reason.
He likely has information to negotiate help for a lot of countries, just leak something secretly and they will aid you to reach your destination. The real question is why didnt he go to such countries first.
Okay, Internet Tough Guy.
You first.
Butbutbut...
He had a hot girlfriend! He must be some kind of superspy or something!
I wonder how much attention we'd be paying this individual if he hadn't left a hot girlfriend behind...
Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
How wonderful China and Russia are aiding Snowden! Both countries are obviously homes to all forms of freedom of expression. As a citizen of China and Russia you can always voice your opinion against the government without worry of incrimination. If you see corruption in the Russian government or brutality against gays then write it about online or in a newspaper. If you think China is oppressing dissidents or sentencing citizens to the death penalty for minor offenses the just tweet about it. That is how truly free those countries are. No need to fear the FSB, Black Dolphin, or MSS. These are happy places full of smiling, jolly police and intelligence officials who welcome criticism.
He should have stuck around because the Obama administration's been just so lenient and favorable to whistleblowers, right? Get a grip.
Check out my world simulator thingy.
*monacle pops out* Shuuuuuulllltttz!!!!
I'm going to just assume you're a spin doctor, as otherwise i'd have to be rude and assume you are an idiot.
a) Snowden did not board the plane to cuba
b) anyone who considers cuba since the soviet union fell apart a threat to america is a moron.
c) nothing snowden could have known about troop positions or other such actions or involvement would have been left the same from shortly after the second he leaked his name. This is assuming he even had such knowledge, given his position his access would have been fairly general and non-specific as far as military matters are concerned.
Did you watch Snowden's interview? He said he had access to information detailing missions and the identities as well.
Then he leaked a Top Secret G8 spy operation. If he didn't have access then how did we learn about that?
Americans willing gave up their privacy to big business a long time ago.
The fact that they reveal certain facts about themselves to certain businesses does not mean they also want the government to know; that's utterly ridiculous.
And come on, now. Not all of us give away tons of our information to big businesses.
If terrorists were aware of the spying, they'd be even more careful.
The nearly-nonexistent terrorist bogeyman, you mean? I'd much rather risk dying in a terrorist attack than allow the government to blatantly violate the constitution and our rights.
The leaker thought he knew better than the Senators on the intelligence committee what choices the American people have made, and he deserves to die.
Clearly, he did know better. I'm glad he revealed our treacherous government's wrongdoings.
If you live in the US, have fun getting groped at airports; it's thanks to the 'safety is more important than freedom' mentality that that happens.
What exactly does he have on those four laptops? So far he has pretty much only released a few PowerPoint slides, a few documents. That doesn't take much space. What does he have that he hasn't released? What does he intend to do with it? A little bargaining maybe? What will his source of income be, and from whom?
So your assertion is that because he COULD release this information to foreign intelligence agencies, that that makes him just as guilty as everyone who HAS?!? Well, in that case, you had better arrest everyone else who has access to classified information (all 4.9 million of them), since they could presumably become spies any day now too.
You claim that the surveillance being conducted by the NSA was illegal - what is your source for that?
The 4th amendment to the United States Constitution.
The cow says "Moo." The dog says "Woof." The Timothy says "Thanks, valued customer. We appreciate your input."
It definitely puts career civil servants at risk, and quite probably puts some politicians at risk. Hence the push to STFU Snowden.
If Snowden or Assange ever stumble into a situation where the USA would be able to bring them to trial, they are more likely to end up dead than in a USA courtroom. There are rogue elements within the USA government who would want that to happen, and they may well have the means to make it so.
Will
Corporate espionage is the one thing they're not allowed to do.
If that where the case, the US would have an unbelievable business and trade-negotiating advantage everywhere, and it would be obvious.
It is fascinating that of all your posts in the past month they are almost all ones trying to paint Snowden as the enemy, or being an apologist for PRISM even if its in the sense of "it would be ok if they had just told us about it".
And quite the presence in this thread very quickly after its posting.
You are either a front account, or someone buying into the spin 100%. Snowden is a subcontracted tech consultant, not some sort of inner circle NSA operative gone amok. There is jack shit in his head, unless he has some sort of eidetic memory.
Yes now you have a conspiracy theory that anyone who doesn't support Snowden leaking details about the G8 Internet cafe spy operation or anyone who does not view Snowden as a hero for going to another government is somehow in support of Prism? I never claimed to support Prism, the NSA or the US government. But I don't understand why you think it's okay to help other governments.
What do we gain if Snowden goes and helps Russia?
If Snowden has already spilled the beans and is doing this on principle, why is he running away from the law, leaking damaging secrets along the way?
Uh, probably because if the law catches him, he will get locked up in a tiny cell forever... after they're done torturing him. He probably does not want that, regardless of what his motivations are.
Likely, he's like Julian Assange: just a mindless vandal intent on doing as much damage to his country and people as humanly possible, betraying the people who raised, fed and clothed him and gave him opportunity.
Yes, I'm sure that he's risking being tortured indefinitely or having an assassin knife him in the back just because he's having fun "betraying the people who raised, fed and clothed him." Are you really that naive?
If he had just wanted to "inflict maximum damage on his country" he could have just posted all his intelligence data to Wikileaks instead of vetting it through a responsible newspaper.
I seem to recall that what's on WikiLeaks was already vetted, and although different people will have differing opinions on what should and shouldn't have passed vetting, there were a lot of things that didn't pass. Bank account numbers, for one, if memory serves.
If I was in Snowden's situation, I doubt I'd simply sit at home like a lamb awaiting slaughter either. By fleeing, he made sure that the information actually made it to the public. If he'd simply put it out there and it had been intercepted and suppressed, he would have had no second chance.
Also, by remaining on the run, he's kept the issue in the spotlight. He further roiled the waters by taking aid and comfort from Evil Empire nations. You know - the ones we always said we were better than because they wouldn't let people travel without harassment, spied on their citizens, and used torture?
Some of the stuff he has done has admittedly been weird. But then, he comes from a culture where weird is the order of the day. He may be crazy. Or crazy like a fox.
They had pretty much hinted as much. Even the Dutch news had an segment with an interview with a Hong Kong official stating:
( Source: 8pm NOS Journaal of June 11th 2013, 19 minutes into the program. )
I suggest you study a chap by the name of Henry David Thoreau and come back when you can understand the historical implications of those that followed his foot steps. I'll name a few that were inspired by him and feel on that proverbial sword, perhaps you might have heard of a couple chaps with names like Martin Luther King and Ghandi?
Going to prison for the cause you believe in and refusing to flee was /very/ much part of their plan. They took ownership of their actions and they refused to back down. They went to jail, at points they flooded the jails, and more to the point they got the public to change their perception by refusing to run as a common criminal would.
These are people that actually got the changes they wanted implemented by their society. Snowden would have have been far more effective at getting the changes he wanted by going to prison as an actual conscientious objector than fleeing. Study your history, if Snowden was an actual conscientious objector he would have fallen on his sword instead of playing international attention whore while damaging his country and allies to the greatest extent possible.
Details of *domestic* spying will put no US asset at risk. Except maybe a few server farms and ISP links?
What about details of the G8 spying: http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2013/06/17/edward_snowden_g8_latest_nsa_leak_comes_as_world_leaders_gather_in_northern.html
This should have never have been leaked. There is nothing illegal about this operation. In fact I don't understand how anyone but foreign governments gain from this leak. The people at the G8 are all government officials being spied on and those are the people who are supposed to be spied on so why was it leaked? EXPLAIN.
They already knew what he knew.
They are only protecting him to make USA look bad, its all PR.
But hey, if USA has access to ALL communications, and all inhouse secret emails and source codes of ALL corporations to all commericial products in dev/beta/selling, then they have the upper hand.
ie. If the NSA has all the source code of a competitor to USA corp, then they give it to the CEO of a F100 corp.
Gee, why are usa corps so successful, its because they get inside info from the NSA.
Even if that info is just pricing and time to market.
ie, if helping Apple gains 50 billion in sales, and hurts Samsung, the NSA will, since it directly benefits pension funds, and the whole USA.
But the number one reason the USA is top dog, is the federal reserve and their unlimited money printing illegal rights, that every one can say, FU, we arent paying our debts back coz its funny money.
How do you know what they knew? Did they know details like from this leak http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2013/06/17/edward_snowden_g8_latest_nsa_leak_comes_as_world_leaders_gather_in_northern.html
I doubt they knew about that. But even if they did, the more details they are given the more they'll be able to duplicate prism.
on one hand, 'snitches get stiches'.
otoh, if an entity that keeps claiming to have the high moral ground was caught being VERY naughty and you 'tell on them', is that, in itself, wrong?
quite a lot of us believe that there should be limits as to what our spying agencies can do. many of us believe the US has crossed a line and needs to be reeled back in.
if someone had committed murder and you knew about it, would you just sit on that info?
how is this any different? he saw crimes committed and told about it. I think he's a hero!
--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
In fact I would have turned myself in rather than be captured by Russia and China.
How do you know that?
What if Snowden is forced to help for the intelligence agencies of those foreign countries?
And here I thought that fear of the terrorist bogeyman was bad enough...
When I saw that line I had to leave it in. :)
For the benefit of those unfamiliar with Hogan's Heroes :: I See Nothing - Sgt Schultz
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
The man is a traitor and an attention whore trying to inflict maximum damage on his country. If he were honestly a simple consciousness objector as claimed he would have never fled to begin with.
History has a proud tradition of actual consciousness objectors willingly going to prison when they feel they need to make a point and stand up for something. More than a few such objectors later became judged by history as heroes (MLK etc).
a gagging order and isolation cell for 30 years.
yeah, sure.
your real problem is that your whistleblowing system is broken because the people listening to the whistles are the people that whistleblowers are blowing the whistle on. how the fuck do you complain to the referee that the referee is corrupt? you don't, you show it to the audience. the way they figured the system is broken was by the administration taking zero action on things they knew that the administration knew about and did shit all nothing about. one of the issues was one of his main campaign issues FFS!
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
Bullshit on that. If Snowden had not "fled", his story would have made the evening news and then been buried the next day. Before any of the messy details hit the press.
He did not "flee". He is running, like a clever fox rousing the countryside with the baying of the hounds that are chasing him. Whether he finds a safe haven or is torn apart by those hounds, he is doing the most he could do right now to keep the story alive, and get people to wake up and smell the stench of corruption in the USA permanent government.
Apparently the powers that be did not assess him correctly when they put him in Hawaii with that hooker they bought for him. It seems like he just was not interested in their kind of candy.
Will
The problem here is that Klink's usual threats don't quite work...
"But Colonel, we _are_ the Russian Front."
Nonsense. Going to prison for reporting that the government is flagrantly violating the rights of its citizens under its own law is pointless, particularly when the process involved would likely be outside the public eye. The whole point Snowden's information release was to bring information to the public eye was to expose the corruption going on in secret. Only a fool would recognize that corruption going on in secret behind the guise of "national security" and then just hand himself over to the government to do as they please with him in secret.
The difference between Snowden's situation and, say, Martin Luther King, is that Dr. King could enjoy the protections afforded in a public, on-the-record environment in his legal proceedings. Snowden, on the other hand, would basically disappear with no public record.
In SOVIET RUSSIA... erm...NSA AMERICA, the Internet logs onto YOU!
s/consciousness objector /conscientious objector/
The author of grandparent post got his words mixed up. There were other problems in that post as well. It was really a bit too shrill to be effective. His employer should spend a bit more, and hire a more competent shill next time.
Will
(Does it not occur to him that what he said comes across as naive arrogance to non-Americans? Of course not. That's why he's an Ugly American!)
Wasn't a good deal of arrogance and naiveness a prerogative to be a real American citizen? Oh yes and don't forget the conviction to live in the freest country in the world....what's that? Oh yes my drone of the 6.30pm!
i didn't know /b/ was part of the EU
It appears that the Chinese public has taken quite an interest in this matter. A million tweets / posts is quite a few, and there seems to be a lot of support for him other than concerns about the diplomatic aspects. I can see this matter would pose quite a dilemma for the Chinese government. On one hand allowing him to stay would be a great public relations coup, but on the other hand they probably don't want to give their citizens any ideas or inspiration to follow.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
I'm well aware of my history, and what I see is that you've equated two different types of cases that are really quite different.
In the sorts of cases you're citing, the injustices they were facing were aimed at segments of society that had been ignored, pushed aside, or otherwise disdained. What their cause needed was public awareness of the crimes being perpetrated, and the best means for doing so was by putting a face on the matter and by making the point that a non-criminal was being treated as one. By allowing themselves to become victims of the injustice, they were able to give a face to the victims, show the world what the injustices looked like in action, prove that innocent men were being treated as criminals, and rally support to enact change.
Not so in this case, since we need only look in the mirror to see the face of a victim of the crimes that Snowden is bringing to light. We all know full well that we're not all criminals, and yet the injustice is being perpetrated against us. Whether Snowden is a criminal or not is immaterial, since the only question we need to be asking is, "are we all criminals?" Were Snowdown to go to jail at this point, the injustices he'd be facing would be entirely separate from the ones he is fighting against now, and as such, they wouldn't serve any purpose or hold any meaning. It wouldn't make him a martyr or give a face to the victims. It would just make him a victim of a different set of crimes.
All this shows is that the freedom to murder is not as evolved as in the US.
I was just sitting this. The U.S, is kind of like an overbearing dean at a school looking for the one kid with the laser pointer (Snowden), and all the students (countries) are sitting on their hands with giant grins laughing as they shrug their shoulders.
Hey, look at me! My opinion is valid because I found a website that says the same thing.
non sequitur doesn't mean what you think it means.
Well, one thing we do know is that he didn't just hand it over indiscriminately to anyone in the past. That strongly suggests that he's not out to just hurt the U.S.
Now you can cook up any number of paranoid scenarios if you like (as you could with anyone who has access to this data). But it presumes a change of attitude on his part that he has heretofore not shown.
The cow says "Moo." The dog says "Woof." The Timothy says "Thanks, valued customer. We appreciate your input."
Yeah, like all of those American citizens who bought the government line that they didn't need privacy laws because the government wasn't interested in spying on them. I hope not too many innocient citizens have their feelings hurt as they discover their government has been lying for decades about increasing domestic surveillance that was supposed to protect them. From something. Like the removal of their civil liberties.
Yes, I just hope not too many innocent civilians gets hurt from Snowdens decisions.
Only individuals acting on their own moral code can help
I agree comrade! So when are YOU going to put down your own money and/or life on the line to help your fellow individuals around the world?
How do you know he isn't already?
Part of what made the underground railroad so successful was the fact that asshats like you didn't know it existed until after the fact.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
It may have been legal in the USA for the NSA to spy on others. But it may not be legal in other countries. Moreover, talking about benefits, it benefits all of humanity to know more details of how governments spy on us and each other.
Fuck you.
HELP MY ACCOUNT HAS BEEN HACKED BY AN ILLIBERAL ART STUDENT SET TO DESTROY THE INTERWEBZ!
...is a logical fallacy, and named as such.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope ...among others.
Please help metamoderate.
Well, one thing we do know is that he didn't just hand it over indiscriminately to anyone in the past. That strongly suggests that he's not out to just hurt the U.S.
Now you can cook up any number of paranoid scenarios if you like (as you could with anyone who has access to this data). But it presumes a change of attitude on his part that he has heretofore not shown.
He doesn't have a choice anymore. And no it's not paranoid at all to think all the spy agencies in the world would like to talk to him.
Just like it's not paranoid to think the CIA wanted to talk to Assange in Sweden. It's what they do. But the point here is Snowden already is talking to them, he's already in Moscow. He's no longer in a position not to negotiate with them. He no longer has the option not to give them whatever they want. We don't even know where he is, he could be getting interrogated right now and we can't know.
A change in attitude should be expected when you're a prisoner of an intelligence agency is all I'm saying.
Just giving those countries and everyone else the chances to protect themselves do a big service for mankind, not just US citizens.
And a little hint: if Snowden, a worker from a private company, with that access to information, as you said "did wrong" and went public, what about the rest that didn't went public? As far i could say, there is no meaning in international intellectual property by now, anything discussed by foreigners thru internet that could had some value is already traded, patented, and being used to sue the original creators of the idea when comes the chance, to put a just a sample of potential abuse.
How do you know that?
Because I'm me and I know me. I would choose to protect innocent lives as much as possible and that would mean turning myself in. Even if I hated the US government policies and programs, it does not mean I would hate the troops or whatever CIA assets are spread around the world exploited by the forces of the US government.
And here I thought that fear of the terrorist bogeyman was bad enough...
Can you blame me for not trusting Snowden? The real question is why you trust him so much. If the NSA gave him as much info as they claim they did then they fucked up but at the same time he made a very poor decision which could cost innocent people their lives depending on what he has.
The Bradley Manning case has demonstrated that Snowden can expect the most extreme prosecution and punishment possible.
Is such extreme punishment warranted?
http://www.studyzone.org/testprep/ela4/m/synonyml.cfm
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
If its not illegal, then the laws are rigged. Im ok that a country that elected their government (US don't qualify on that, but less suppose) could suffer whatever abuse against their rights their government does. But what about the people from rest of the world? The communication don't even need to pass thru US to get intercepted.
The biggest damage is not against people. Is against internet, if you don't trust it or the government behind it, it will damage its adoption, or create not so open alternatives.
It's also possible that I love my country (not necessarily the policies but the people).
When I speak about the danger Snowden is in and the risk he puts to national security I'm not talking about the leak about the NSA illegally spying on Americans. Most of us knew about that already. I'm talking about whatever else he may know which wasn't leaked to the media and anything else he might have.
Why do I think he's going to tell the Russians how to redesign their networks? Because I don't think the Russians are going to give him an option not to. They'll social engineer it out of him, they'll use psychology and whatever interrogation techniques that it takes to get the information.
So Snowden in his fear of going to a US prison, now may be in a position where he can be interrogated without any human rights and if he refuses to help them he'll be threatened to be sent to the US to go to prison or perhaps with worse depending on how much leverage they gain over him over time. He's basically part of Russia.
A more difficult version of the "Where's Wally" game....because he isn't wearing a read and white striped jumper and cyan trousers/pants.
Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
Karma: Chameleon
on one hand, 'snitches get stiches'.
otoh, if an entity that keeps claiming to have the high moral ground was caught being VERY naughty and you 'tell on them', is that, in itself, wrong?
quite a lot of us believe that there should be limits as to what our spying agencies can do. many of us believe the US has crossed a line and needs to be reeled back in.
if someone had committed murder and you knew about it, would you just sit on that info?
how is this any different? he saw crimes committed and told about it. I think he's a hero!
But that is not all he could end up doing. If the story ended there then you could debate with me whether or not he is a hero. The story did not end there. He still has information either in his brain or on him which could help the Russians, Cubans and whomever else. He did release a leak about the G8 which in no way was directed at civilians and so why did it get released at all? On top of that it wasn't even illegal what the NSA did in that instance so it should never have been leaked.
To me that shows he's not doing this to benefit the people of the world but he's trying to protect himself at this point from going to jail and will do anything in his power to avoid that. He will leak anything to avoid going to a US prison, but the problem is he's in Russia now and they can tell him anything they have to in order to secure his cooperation. At this point I don't think he even knows right from wrong, he's in a position to be completely brainwashed by Russian agents.
At this point Snowden is a victim of governments, but he's not a hero. He isn't a hero because I don't believe his actions will result in anything which benefits Internet activists, free speech, democracy. If he ends up in Cuba do you really think his knowledge if they get it will be used to promote Democracy?
Could be working for a reputation management company. As Snowden was working for a private company when got that information.
Because I'm me and I know me.
But you don't know that you'd do in such an extraordinary situation.
and that would mean turning myself in.
Whatever floats your boat.
The real question is why you trust him so much.
What? I don't really care what he has. I'm tired of this "Revealing our wrongdoings could endanger lives!" nonsense. It's well worth it to me since freedom is more important than security.
Don't look at the top of the iceberg. He wasn't so special in his organization, and his organization wasn't so special neither. That he knew/had access means that a lot of people had (and keep having) the same access. Before worrying about what he did, think what the others could be doing right now.
How do you know he isn't already?
The fact udachny is the puppet account of roman_mir, who on both accounts spend much time posting here (where he gets down modded to oblivion, and easily tracked by the NSA) instead of keeping his mouth shut. He has a track record of all talk, no walk.
Of course, there's the possibility that he's faking incompetence to obfuscate his real actions and intentions, but if we are to start second guessing, why not assume the worse that he's actually a double agent for the government? And maybe I'm a government agent, and you are too (there's a novel about that, I forgot the name). Paranoia? Maybe, but just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you (if Snowden's leaks are to be believed)
Part of what made the underground railroad so successful was the fact that asshats like you didn't know it existed until after the fact.
No, asshats like me are who made underground railroad successful. We're the ones who used it. We're the ones who were crying out and great people answered by putting their life/money on the line to setup those channels.
the nsa surveillance is illegal, suspicious and can't stand the light of day. why do you think it was secret?
it's only legal in the sense that the courts and president decided that there wouldn't be any repercussions from it... which again is exactly what he was blowing the whistle on.
And you're acting like america has any real secrets to spill to Russians - they know all about spying their own citizens already, they know nsa does "cyber"crimes abroad. They also know how many tanks you have, how many nukes you have and where they are(apart from the subs which is the reason the matter tactically a great deal). And I don't think Snowden had access to information about where the subs exactly are unless there's some big secret and all the subs are actually scrapped already in which case the soviets would know that too.
of course Snowden might in theory if he abused his access have a great deal of emberrassing information on high ranking officials, CEO's etc, information on business dealings etc... which gets us to the point why building such surveillance network is a bad idea - the government can't really be trusted with that information because they're such fucks that they'll contract the work out.
if PRISM is alive then it's unbelievable that USA would run the operation with anything but military personnel since supposedly military use is all it should be for.. but then again those people have all kinds of pesky oaths and low pay so they might not shut up.
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
The sheer quantity of fallacies you're using is simply astounding. That's a pointless quagmire I'm simply not going to wade into. I'm going to have to simply dismiss you without rebuttal and let the posts speak for themselves.
In SOVIET RUSSIA... erm...NSA AMERICA, the Internet logs onto YOU!
But you don't know that you'd do in such an extraordinary situation.
But I know what I wouldn't do.
Whatever floats your boat.
What? I don't really care what he has. I'm tired of this "Revealing our wrongdoings could endanger lives!" nonsense. It's well worth it to me since freedom is more important than security.
Just because you're tired of it doesn't mean it isn't true. There is a line.
He had a pizza away from family/friends under virtual house arrest (confined to hotel) according Washington Post. He could take pride in having accomplished possibility the most important thing in his life. Yet lives under the fear of arrest or assassination.
I would happily see all governments fall, and all presidents, prime ministers, kings and queens dead, hung by the guts of the priesthood (however they might call themselves, imans, rabbis and gurus included). The war will not be civil, but will be a vast uprising of the masses against the oppressors. Capitalists shall be drawn and quartered in an orgy of revenge that shall make the French and Russian Revolutions look like picnics.
It won't be pretty. And I certainly don't desire it. But I can't see a good way out of it, other than the fanciful. Perhaps the powerful might be convinced to give up their wealth and powerful, and sit with the rest of us and eat common food. I doubt it.
You talk as if some governments are better than others, or even that some are good. I see the reality, that they are all bad. Saddam Hussein was an awful man, no doubt. But the "liberation" of Iraq did not lead to fewer deaths or a more free country.
it's better for all humanity to know how we are spied upon. And if I could, I would release all government secrets at once (and fuck the soldiers and special ops and spies, who all knew what they were getting into signing up to fight for their country). And if I couldn't, but if I could instead just release the secrets of one government, I would do that.
I go further than Thoreau, who suggested that the government that governs least governs best. I say that no government governs well at all, and all should be abolished.
HELP MY ACCOUNT HAS BEEN HACKED BY AN ILLIBERAL ART STUDENT SET TO DESTROY THE INTERWEBZ!
If its not illegal, then the laws are rigged. Im ok that a country that elected their government (US don't qualify on that, but less suppose) could suffer whatever abuse against their rights their government does. But what about the people from rest of the world? The communication don't even need to pass thru US to get intercepted.
The biggest damage is not against people. Is against internet, if you don't trust it or the government behind it, it will damage its adoption, or create not so open alternatives.
Governments are at war and people suffer. The G8 leak was for politics and not to help people. The US does need to fix a lot of it's laws and so do many other nations, but I don't want terrorists corrupting the process and preventing the people who love their countries from fixing the problems. Meaning you can be against illegal spying but also against terrorism and the balance for that position is you have to find a way to keep people physically safe while not infringing on their liberties.
The problem with certain kinds of leaks is that they put peoples lives in danger. To me that is a line which shouldn't be crossed. Snowden made that claim in his interview that he understands that but is saying it from China and also saying how Hong Kong has a free Internet (which might be true but no more free than the US) then goes on to say what he could have done but didn't do, how he has every identity and all sorts of knowledge of all sorts of operations, but even if he does not have those documents on him (we really don't know), the fact that he could remember some stuff could cause problems too.
So the question is how do you protect civil liberties and the Internet without putting innocent peoples lives at risk to do it? Every leak has to be judged on it's own merit, they aren't all equal. In his leak there was no detail about NSA abuses but it may have leaked something which was breaking the law and in that case it should be addressed. At the same time the G8 leak was not breaking the law and he leaked it anyway for unknown reasons.
He did show that the NSA lies to the American people about not spying on Americans and that the NSA may have broken the law. He also revealed sources and methods about how the US spies on the G8 which didn't help anything.
Don't look at the top of the iceberg. He wasn't so special in his organization, and his organization wasn't so special neither. That he knew/had access means that a lot of people had (and keep having) the same access. Before worrying about what he did, think what the others could be doing right now.
Those others aren't in Russian custody right now. Also it's not my job to worry about what every contractor is doing. Snowden is the one who went on the media and put himself in the public consciousness.
Just because you're tired of it doesn't mean it isn't true. There is a line.
I have my own priorities, so I can that, at least for me, it isn't true.
I know, your job is improve the reputation of the NSA and alikes, even with this kind of spills. But what you don't know can hurt you, or the ones you care about, and that they have in a silver platter anything that can be used against you (even by misinterpretation) don't improve your chances. Speaking of misuses, how will affect you personally what russia or cuba or whatever enemy in your mind nation do with this information? And how is that compared with that NSA/CIA/(dis)intelligence agencies can do to you with what they are gathering? And what about the average citizen of US, or the world? Focus in the biggest foe.
Grow up big man. You sound such a cry baby.
First, do you realize that Snowden left US because he felt that would never receive fair trial.
He chose to go to Hong Kong which is in China. That is no accident. Yes there is fear of US allies extraditing him but why did he choose Hong Kong and then Russia? He had other options but chose these countries which would cause the greatest amount of political fallout possible. It's not the Cold War anymore but China? Russia? Cuba?!
After the decision he made to reveal unjust practices to public he had no other choice than to leave.
If he had been convinced that he would have fair trial there would have been no reason to escape. He did not leave because it was fun or because he wanted to hand over secret information to foreign countries, but because it was necessary for his own safety after going public what is done by NSA/CIA.
The difference between you and me is that I question his motives. I don't pretend to know what he was thinking or know why he made his decisions. But if you want to know my position on what I think he was thinking and doing, I believe he was acting based on his moral compass and his conscience. I think the problem he had was a lack of information, and this led to him making terrible decisions. The thing about the government is information is so ridiculously compartmentalized that he might have known everything there is to know about Prism and certain programs being a Sys Admin or whatever he was but then because he couldn't see from another angle he might not have known enough to have made a better decision. Also I really do believe abuses are going on and he probably did stumble upon some legit abuses of the information being collected, or blackmail, such as the story he tells about how the CIA got some guy drunk, These things really do happen so it's perfectly understandable that he could have had a guilty conscience but I also don't think he fully thought through his actions and acted impulsively in a way which is self defeating.
He did achieve something and that is bringing attention to the potential for abuse by the NSA and I give him credit for bringing attention to a legit problem with lack of oversight. That part of his leak is the part most people pass over but he said an analyst could basically look into anyones online activity for any reason. As far as I know he made it out like there is no oversight. What is to stop the NSA from abusing the information after collecting it? So don't get the impression that I like Prism, it definitely needs more oversight. The (NSA doesn't spy on Americans) was also proven not to be true.
I don't believe he carries any secret documents with him, that would be really naive. He probably has his material, if he still has more, uploaded somewhere multiple encrypted copies online somewhere and where he can get them when needed.
There is no way he can get them without Russia getting them when he's physically in Russia. So whatever method he uses to access them can and will be intercepted.
The documents might be literally right under the noses of NSA and CIA but appear so innocent that nobody without knowing it would be able to pick up those files.
He may be skilled but he's still in Russia. The NSA and CIA isn't in control of him anymore. He cannot access anything without it being intercepted by Russian intelligence because he;s in their country. The same goes for China or anywhere else he is. He wont be able to access a damn thing because he wont have any privacy to access anything without sharing it with them.
For sure Snowden will and have been interviewed already by the intelligence agencies agents at least few times, offered cooperation and he will also spied by many as they want to know where he has his stuff etc. He will not for sure reveal his all cards as that is his life insurance least so long that trust leve
Antartica. A little birdy told me. Tweet! Tweet! Oh wait, maybe it was Viet Nam.
You are being MICROattacked, from various angles, in a SOFT manner.
I think he's unwitting, because he believes what he's doing is morally right. He's brainwashed...
It looks to me like you're the one who has been brainwashed. The government broke the very basis of all its laws, the Constitution, the head of the NSA lied to Congress, and Snowdon spilled the beans to the populace. I haven't heard any secrets that he's revealed that could in any way jeopardize national security, and if you have then please tell me what. The only threat to national security is if this bullshit riles people up anough to start shooting at politicians. National security isn't at stake, politicians' security is, fool.
The only traitors in this picture are the legislators who passed the PATRIOT act and are all trying to scare you with the "terrorist" boogeyman, a "threat" that is infinitesimal to almost everybody in the US.
If you're OK with living in a police state, move to Korea or Singapore or somewhere. I want my damned country back. I didn't join the military and volunteer for South East Asia during Vietnam just to have my country turn into a worse surveilance state than the Soviets we were fighting.
He'd be an idiot to volunteer for prison and you're an idiot for suggesting it. Bradley Manning is sure informing us now, isn't he? The guy's been locked up in solitary without trial and without visitors. Where's his right to a speedy trial? He can no longer fight the monster. (song by the old Canadian band Steppenworf, lyrics here)
Snowden can.
Cowardly syncopants like you make me sick.
Snowden is a PowerPoint spy for China/military industrial complex...though a lawbreaker, he **did not** reveal any substantially new information about the NSA and US surveillance programs...just the 'PRISM' name from a .ppt and details of existing operations...still espionage, especially out counter-intel efforts in China, this guy is no Brad Lee Manning...he broke the law to reveal operational details of things people knew existed in abstract
we all know the government can access our digital communications under certain circumstances...it's part of living in a free society...
any IT professional knows any signal transmitted can be intercepted...just because ambulance-chasing yellow journalists morons are all in a flap doesn't mean a 'meaningful conversation' has started at all...the NSA and Patriot Act will only change through **Congress**
to the point: ALL OF THIS WAS REPORTED IN 2006: yahoo.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-05-10-nsa_x.htm
Read it and weep snowdentrolls....he broke the law on a foolish nerd/troll errand so he could get a book deal/documentary and see himself on CNN
The only productive conversation that should result is about *oversight* and *accountability of contractors* and *due process*...
Snowden is a malignant narcissist or maybe being blackmailed
Thank you Dave Raggett
If he was so pro privacy he certainly wouldn't be looking to China, Russia or Cuba for refuge and sympathy, these are the least sympathetic countries for civil liberties and privacy, they are however very sympathetic for anti-Americanism.
(If at first you don't succeed, do it different next time!)
"I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country." -- George C. Scott playing George S. Patton.
We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
...was one where the author noted that the US was perplexed at the delay in response to an extradition request from Chinese officials.
I emailed the author, to suggest that might have been because they hadn't picked themselves up off the floor, where they'd fallen from laughing so hard at the incontrovertable proof that the US and China spied on their own people the same way... just that the US does it a bit more covertly.
mark "where's that sigfile some folks used to use on usenet, that was intended to overload Carnivore?"
AFAIK Snowden has not actually entered Russia. He lacks a visa or even a valid passport. He remains in transit until his next flight out.
The Russians are no longer our enemies. Are you as afraid of the UK gaining classified information about us and if not why not?
Governments are way too obsessed with secrecy and the vast majority of it is unnecessary and unjustified. Yes, there is the occassional bit of weapons research that we may want to keep close to our chests, but most other secrets are not of much value and are merely embarrassing. If you don't want to look like an asshole it might be better not to act like one in the first place instead of relying on secrecy laws to protect you from the consequences of your moronic actions. Neither Russia nor China are our enemies. Perhaps it's about time we started treating them the way we would like to be treated ourselves. Reading their mail does not make us more secure. It just makes us look like jerks when we inevitably get caught with our hands in the cookie jar.
Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
I'm using a website to track the Moscow-Havana flight right now, and it clearly overflies the US; look for yourself - http://flightaware.com/live/flight/AFL150/history/20130624/1005Z/UUEE/MUHA
Will the US force the plane to land? Will the plane experience "technical difficulties" forcing it to make an emergency landing on US soil? The current plane is an Airbus so the US knows everything about its avionics... click, click, click and a warning light comes on.
Who knows, but if I were Snowden, I'd make sure I steered well clear of the US and remained over International waters. Maybe Kim Dotcom can charter a plane for him, he still has a few scores to settle with the US government.
When the copyright term is "forever minus a day", live every day like it's the last.
“He’s a kid, I really think he’s a kid, I think he never anticipated this would be such a big matter in Hong Kong,” Mr. Ho said, adding that, “He enjoys Pepsi, he prefers Pepsi to wine, that’s why I say he’s a kid.” "Mr. Ho presented an image of Mr. Snowden that differed in some respects from the public image that he presented in a video released by The Guardian, a British newspaper, when Mr. Snowden first stepped forward to take responsibility for leaks of classified information about American surveillance programs. In the video, assembled over a period of days from various remarks made by Mr. Snowden, he appeared to have devised a clear plan of action together with a willingness to defy the United States. But Mr. Ho described his client as someone with a vague sense of his legal options and a limited understanding, at least until the dinner over pizza last Tuesday, of his legal rights in Hong Kong. During the dinner, Mr. Ho said, “he came to a full grasp of the situation and better understanding of the reality.”
I know, your job is improve the reputation of the NSA and alikes, even with this kind of spills. But what you don't know can hurt you, or the ones you care about, and that they have in a silver platter anything that can be used against you (even by misinterpretation) don't improve your chances. Speaking of misuses, how will affect you personally what russia or cuba or whatever enemy in your mind nation do with this information? And how is that compared with that NSA/CIA/(dis)intelligence agencies can do to you with what they are gathering? And what about the average citizen of US, or the world? Focus in the biggest foe.
This isn't about a reputation, it's about people staying alive.
I don't think everything the NSA does is bad. I think it needs more oversight and I think there may be abuses but I don't think we should completely sacrifice all national security like you do. Don't you have friends and family in the USA? What about in the military? Do you want to hurt the NSA so bad that you don't care about the security of thousands or perhaps millions of people?
There is a difference between not liking a program or policy of the US government or NSA and completely hating the organization and country.
I would happily see all governments fall, and all presidents, prime ministers, kings and queens dead, hung by the guts of the priesthood (however they might call themselves, imans, rabbis and gurus included). The war will not be civil, but will be a vast uprising of the masses against the oppressors. Capitalists shall be drawn and quartered in an orgy of revenge that shall make the French and Russian Revolutions look like picnics.
It won't be pretty. And I certainly don't desire it. But I can't see a good way out of it, other than the fanciful. Perhaps the powerful might be convinced to give up their wealth and powerful, and sit with the rest of us and eat common food. I doubt it.
You talk as if some governments are better than others, or even that some are good. I see the reality, that they are all bad. Saddam Hussein was an awful man, no doubt. But the "liberation" of Iraq did not lead to fewer deaths or a more free country.
it's better for all humanity to know how we are spied upon. And if I could, I would release all government secrets at once (and fuck the soldiers and special ops and spies, who all knew what they were getting into signing up to fight for their country). And if I couldn't, but if I could instead just release the secrets of one government, I would do that.
I go further than Thoreau, who suggested that the government that governs least governs best. I say that no government governs well at all, and all should be abolished.
No I talk as if some people are better than others. That is because to me it's subjective. There are people I happen to like who happen to be in the USA or US allied nations. To hurt national security for the US would put their lives at risk and I don't support that.
I agree that governments are too authoritarian, but I disagree with the tactic of leaking as a solution. Leaking creates arms races as governments discover what other governments have been working on in Top Secret. Leaking also makes each government a bit more paranoid which usually means they spy on us even harder because they are worried about the next Bradley fucking Manning or Edward Snowden. If anything the leaks could be used to justify an increase in the spy budget of the NSA. People will say if we just looked at Snowden a bit more carefully and vetted him a bit more thoroughly that maybe this couldn't have happened.
The truth is no amount of vetting would have changed this and the problem isn't that the NSA spies, but whether or not the mechanisms they are using is causing abuse. I think spying on peoples Internet habits over years is ripe for abuse so there has to be a lot more oversight of these sorts of programs but I also believe if the NSA isn't doing it foreign intelligence will so I don't believe attacking the NSA program is how you change things, you change things by getting laws passed to restrict, regulate, and provide accountability for all who abuse their power.
Snowden is a no body. Thats why he's getting out of Russia. If he had anything that mattered, he would have 'never landed in Russia' and disappeared.
What he has 'leaked', the rest of the world sat back and said 'uhm, yea? You didn't figure that out 30 years ago?'
Snowden's leaks just show he's a traitor, they bring no actual value to the table, no new information, just a basic confirmation of what we already knew.
Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
He's intelligent, has an average to low body fat percentage, cares about others, and oh yeah has gigantic brass balls to take on the NSA. So yeah, unless you're a rock star who's gone platinum, Snowden is going to be far more desired than you will ever be.
Just because you're tired of it doesn't mean it isn't true. There is a line.
I have my own priorities, so I can that, at least for me, it isn't true.
Freedom is more important than security for me too, but if I can have freedom and security that is better. Why should I be forced to choose death as an outcome if it wouldn't even guarantee freedom for humanity?
It's one thing if we are talking about an action by Snowden which freed humanity from war and governments but we both know that wont be the result of his leak. His leak will result in crackdowns, increased surveillance. Just looking at the stuff said by some people on this site I wouldn't be surprised if many of them aren't flagged and put under surveillance.
That said I want free speech and I say what I think regardless, but I just don't see how these leaks will solve anything. I think it's naive to think leaking can fix government, but I do agree with that leaking can bring attention to abuses by authority on citizens. Snowden's leak did not reveal any abuses though.
The problem is with any leak that is made usually a bunch of lives would have to be sacrificed in order to make that move. My stance is that it's not worth it to sacrifice those lives because it's not protecting lives. Meaning it does not make sense to sacrifice the lives of 1000 service men and women when it's not saving 100,000 civilians. It's also not realistic to because chances are if you're an American you know more service men and women than you know civilians overseas being caught up in drone strikes.
So the real choice you get is to sacrifice the lives of your friends, family and limited amount of people who you know in your life, or sacrifice the lives of people you don't know. But in any conflict people are going to die and you only really get to choose which people and perhaps do your best to limit the use of certain weapons on all sides. The NSA/CIA/US has some truly cruel weapons which should not be used, and so do China and Russia. It's in all of our interest as civilians to restrict our governments use of those weapons, and this is why we need law and order combined with oversight and accountability.
Right now the NSA has Prism which is like a weapon because it can be used to destroy anyone's life. For that reason it is something which must be strictly regulated. For that reason for me it's important that the technology not get spread around the world by Snowden or anyone else. If it's bad enough that the NSA has it why would we want China and Russia to have it or even know details about it? Also where are the leaks of Russia's surveillance state? There are no leaks coming out of Russia being sent to Wikileaks.
The point here is many people deem it that because the US is the biggest bully on the block that it has to be taken down, the problem is if you take the US down then all global stability goes to shit. The US has nuclear weapons and technology even worse than nukes. If the US is taken down then if that stuff leaks the human race is doomed. The NSA does protect those facilities and technologies and in my opinion it's better that stuff does not leak ever, because if we keep promoting this pro-leaker culture eventually WMDs will leak.
What makes you think that Snowden might be a follower of Thoreau? Or MLK or Ghandi? That would be pretty pretentious of him. He saw that the US goverment was doing some bad shit that he thought people should know about. He let people know about it. He did what he thought was right. What happens to him after that doesn't change that fact. And I don't see how sacrificing himself afterward achieves anything at all. Are there not enough dead people or something? I'm not sure I see what hanging him is supposed to accomplish.
Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
AFAIK Snowden has not actually entered Russia. He lacks a visa or even a valid passport. He remains in transit until his next flight out.
The Russians are no longer our enemies. Are you as afraid of the UK gaining classified information about us and if not why not?
Governments are way too obsessed with secrecy and the vast majority of it is unnecessary and unjustified. Yes, there is the occassional bit of weapons research that we may want to keep close to our chests, but most other secrets are not of much value and are merely embarrassing. If you don't want to look like an asshole it might be better not to act like one in the first place instead of relying on secrecy laws to protect you from the consequences of your moronic actions. Neither Russia nor China are our enemies. Perhaps it's about time we started treating them the way we would like to be treated ourselves. Reading their mail does not make us more secure. It just makes us look like jerks when we inevitably get caught with our hands in the cookie jar.
Why does Russia support Assad while the US gives weapons to the rebels?
My stance is that it's not worth it to sacrifice those lives because it's not protecting lives.
It reveals the government's wrongdoing, which makes it worthwhile. The leaks do not kill anyone; other people do that. If the people do not step up and fix the issues with their own government, then that is their problem.
Why is the US such an enthusiastic torturer and why is the US such an enemy of human rights? Why is speaking out against a corrupt government a capital offense? Freedom of speech is an illusion. When it really matters speech will get you the electric chair.
Most of the world considers the US a thug and a villian and seeking to execute someone for speaking out against government abuse of power is proof that they are right. Only a certain kind of American would want to see this guy fry or hang. The rest of the world is cheering for him as are all Americans who believe in freedom and human rights.
Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
I'd argue that he is upholding that oath by defending the Constitution against a domestic enemy, and that in revealing only the specifics that he has revealed, he's done his duty to shine the light on those who are attacking American freedom while also ensuring that those who are protecting it are able to continue doing so. I.e. He's specifically targeting unconstitutional practices, while leaving the constitutional ones intact and secret.
Were this a field decision, I could understand soldiers allowing some leeway, since the decisions we make when lives are on the line and seconds count may not have been the ones we'd have made if we were given a few weeks and a room full of advisors. You need to be able to count on your soldiers to follow through in those situations, even if it is a bad order, and it's easy for the peanut gallery to play armchair general afterwards and talk about how a bad decision was made. But we also know that soldiers are responsible for their own actions, which has been repeatedly upheld, most notably at the Nuremberg trials, but also later through treaties that have said that "I was following orders" is not a valid defense. Clearly the soldier has a higher duty to follow the spirit of the oath, rather than the orders being given, if the orders being given run contrary to the oath they took.
But PRISM and the other operations he's revealing are not field decisions. These are operations that have been in place for years and have no excuse for their continued existence. These are operations that have been unconstitutional from their inception and should have never been allowed to exist, let alone continue. Given his awareness of these programs, he has a higher duty to reveal them to the public than he does to protect their secrecy, since the damage they are doing to the Constitution is immeasurable.
To provide a contrast with what's happening here, I don't stand by what Bradley Manning did, since he clearly had no awareness of what was even contained in the cables he leaked. As such, he had no guarantee that his actions were in the best interests of the country he had sworn to protect. Based on the chat logs and other accounts, his actions were taken out of spite towards the government, and the lack of specificity in what he revealed makes it obvious that there was no particular crime that he was seeking to bring to light or bring an end to. He just wanted to embarrass people, and he figured that dumping all of that data would do the trick.
Not so here, where the information being released is only as much as is necessary to make the point that our civil liberties have been abridged.
The United States runs two major (and who knows how many minor) gulags: Gitmo and Bagram Prison. How many does Spain have?
The United States has tortured at least 100 people to death in it's War Of Terror. How does that compare to say, Italy?
Then there's the trifling matter that the United States has the largest prison population in the world, both in raw numbers and as a percentage of it's population. More than China, more than Russia, more than Turkey, and most are locked up for victimless drug offenses.
Why is the US such an enthusiastic torturer and why is the US such an enemy of human rights? Why is speaking out against a corrupt government a capital offense? Freedom of speech is an illusion. When it really matters speech will get you the electric chair.
Most of the world considers the US a thug and a villian and seeking to execute someone for speaking out against government abuse of power is proof that they are right. Only a certain kind of American would want to see this guy fry or hang. The rest of the world is cheering for him as are all Americans who believe in freedom and human rights.
All governments act the same way and treat civilians as less than human during war.
Also when did the US say he seeks to execute him? Why does it have to be extreme?
I don't want to see Snowden hang but I don't want to see him hanging out in Cuba either. Whatever he knows has to be kept safe and that is a lot more difficult in Cuba unless the CIA is there to protect him from Castro.
How telling others (specially, US citizens) that they are being spied put your own people in danger? Who is behaving wrong there? Or spying all the world is a god given priviledge? Is not that they won't abuse that privilege,
I don't want anybody hurt, but give government free card to do anything and they will be the terrorists. If you think that that terror campaign only goes to a few countries, think again, they want to go against hackers too (so better you don't live in the same area that someone downloading an mp3). And if that don't worry you because you, after all, live in US, you probably will be next.
This is about awareness, the rest of the world so they can protect themselves, and you, that should be the one that can do anything about it. But you can keep giving them free pass, in the end, if/when something happens to you or to someone you cares about in the hand of that government you are defending, you will know that was your fault.
then you have nothing to fear from whistleblowers
All governments act the same way and treat civilians as less than human during war.
Are we at war?
Also when did the US say he seeks to execute him? Why does it have to be extreme?
It's SOP in the US for prosecutors to go after any charge they can even remotely pin on. Many people are calling Snowden a traitor. If they managed to catch him I think there's a good chance they would seek to charge him with Treason. 18 USC section 2381:
So traitors can be executed and that means the stakes here really are life or death.
Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
Spying on diplomats is a no-no.
This is what Snowden gave to the media. We don't know how many other details like this he has to hand over. The fact that he's now in Russia could mean that he's handing over gigs detailed of information he had stored somewhere.
WE JUST DO NOT KNOW.
So stop acting like you know.
Are we at war?
Always. The US government has been at war non stop since WW2.
It's SOP in the US for prosecutors to go after any charge they can even remotely pin on. Many people are calling Snowden a traitor. If they managed to catch him I think there's a good chance they would seek to charge him with Treason.
He's not going to be charged with Treason. He's not the first guy to release classified documents. He'll get life in supermax prison though.
18 USC section 2381:
So traitors can be executed and that means the stakes here really are life or death.
That hasn't happened in a long long time. It's highly speculative to think it would happen to him.
How telling others (specially, US citizens) that they are being spied put your own people in danger? Who is behaving wrong there? Or spying all the world is a god given priviledge? Is not that they won't abuse that privilege,
I don't want anybody hurt, but give government free card to do anything and they will be the terrorists. If you think that that terror campaign only goes to a few countries, think again, they want to go against hackers too (so better you don't live in the same area that someone downloading an mp3). And if that don't worry you because you, after all, live in US, you probably will be next.
This is about awareness, the rest of the world so they can protect themselves, and you, that should be the one that can do anything about it. But you can keep giving them free pass, in the end, if/when something happens to you or to someone you cares about in the hand of that government you are defending, you will know that was your fault.
He's way of getting awareness is now starting to cause damage. I understand he wants to shut the program down but he's going about it the wrong way. Also it might not be an option to shut it down anyway.
So I agree with you if it's about abuse we have to prevent that but I don't see how him fleeing to Cuba or threatening to release damaging files will prevent abuse. Has the NSA stopped spying on us? No.
What was the alternative? Not even knowing that the NSA is spying us? Not even knowing that the NSA is spying in fact everyone? Knowing gives you a chance to do something, at the very least not trust the US network for storing critical information, but for US citizens should give the chance to elect something not tied in this game, or expressely manifest that they don't want anyone tied in this game (even if it means voting "none of the above"), in big numbers could send a message.
A bit more over that. The government is criminalizing whisteblowers big time, so what Snowden released is not all that must be hidden at all cost, either he have more, or he didnt access to it. And again, the rest of the world can't do nothing about it (if threatened "consequences" to China for letting Snowden escape, even with the evidence of massive spying they are doing on them, means that there are no sanctions back yet, not from europe, russia or china, the biggest sanction so far is letting Snowden out of their hands), what the government keeps being mortally afraid is what US population would do knowing about it. We still are seeing the tip of the iceberg, even after Snowden and Wikileaks, and the main affected people are the citizens of the US.
should start making friends before needing them.
This is largely off-topic, but I found the Guardian article you linked to to be surprisingly interesting, especially this paragraph:
The Mail holds aloft the banner of press freedom when citing the public's right to know about Hugh Grant's private life, but it appears to find it unacceptable for a paper to inform the people that their privacy has been compromised by their own government.
That is unexpectedly outspoken and clear-sighted for a mainstream newspaper that should basically have been standing in the same line-up that The Mail, etc. are forming.
From where I am right now in Europe, I am seeing a disturbing trend of media outlets being secretly herded together, formerly independent newspapers and radio & TV channels being bought out and control over them centralized. I'm afraid this is not coincidental, seeing how crucial the controlled news media in the US is to manipulating public perception of national issues.
[SHOW SOME LENIENCY TOWARDS