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Congress Voting On Amendment to Defund NSA Domestic Spying Tomorrow
New submitter Jah-Wren Ryel writes "It's been just over a month since the NSA's dragnet surveillance program was leaked to the public. Tomorrow, Congress is voting on an amendment that would block funding for NSA programs that collect the call records of innocent Americans. A win tomorrow may start a chain reaction — but it won't happen unless we speak up. We have one day to convince Congress to act."
The EFF is urging U.S. citizens to call their representatives, noting that there is no time for email to be effective (find your representative). You can read the amendment on the EFF site, quoting the EFF: "Reps. Justin Amash, John Conyers, Jr., Thomas Massie, Mick Mulvaney, and Jared Polis are proposing an amendment that would curtail funding for the implementation of orders under Section 215 of the PATRIOT Act unless the order is explicitly limited in scope. ... Even as the Amash/Conyers Amendment is gaining momentum, some are rallying around a decoy amendment that would do nothing to rein in domestic surveillance. That amendment, championed by Rep. Nugent, would not alter in any way the government's use of Section 215 to obtain bulk communications records on millions of Americans. EFF is urging Representatives to oppose the Nugent Amendment."
I live in Kansas, so if I called my Congressman, it would be totally ineffective. I have tried before and gotten the form letter which says, basically, "If you have an opinion that disagrees with mine, Suck It." Sincerely Your Congressman
Treadstone? You're worried... It's all but decommissioned at this point. All right. What's next? Okay. This is... Black Briar. Black Briar is a joint DOD communications program that we really feel has good traction. It's got legs. It'll run and run.
> The OP could be much clearer.
Or you could be smart enough to realize that the word amendment isn't defined as "Modifies the US Constitution"
Your hair look like poop, Bob! - Wanker.
Call your political people all you want, but they're the dipshits that need such, or so they would like us to think. The problem here isn't that they're spying on us, it's that data can be used for deeeep levels of doublespeak that only regular citizens can get caught up in. No one will ever hear of a fucking political leader doing wrong, as a result of the PRISM findings. Also, if they do find such, and report it, they'll likely end up hiding in a Russian airport.
"Not spying on Americans[tm]"?
Uhm. Did you lot forget that the USoA proclaimed itself the guardian of teh free intarwebz? And also that more than a little international traffic passes in, then right out the USoA again, in both directions?
If you want to be trustable as a global guardian, you can't treat this few people different from all the rest, you have to stand up equally for each and every one of them. So if you don't want wholesale warrantless tapping of bloody everything, you have to stop it for everyone, not just for you.
If you don't get that, you're not fit to stay guardian of teh intarwebz. To the point that I can't tell which would be worse, putting the oversight with the VN, with censorship-pushing Russia and wholesale censoring China (and a fsckton of dodgy other countries, like the UK) both on its security council, or you.
So yeah, call your representatives. And tell'em to shut the whole thing down, not just stop it for the happy few. You owe it to the image of that great and idealistic country you like to try and convince the world of, if not so much to your loudly speaking deeds so far.
Because nothing says reassuring like a vote from congress.
Domestic spying isn't going to end folks. It's here to stay, you're all being profiled now and you don't care enough to do anything about it. The day a new iPhone or Galaxy Nexus comes out you'll all still buy it, even though you've just helped enable domestic spying through your purchase. The day the PS4 with its microphone-enabled controllers and the XBone with its Kinect 2 you'll all rush out and buy it anyway. Hell, Android phones came with CarrierIQ PREINSTALLED, remember that? A keylogger, preinstalled on your phone. They aren't even trying to hide it any more, your phone is a mouthpiece and eyepiece of the State now whether you like it or not.
All I've seen on Slashdot and Reddit about this whole debacle is nothing but a bunch of whining and slacktivism, the most amusing of which was a meme post on Reddit whining on about the lack of "complaints" regarding the NSA lately. Complaints. That's all you have after every right and freedom your own ancestors fought to achieve, complaints? How can you honestly still sing "the land of the free" with a straight face when the anthem plays? The United States of America is the shining example of totalitarianism in the world today.
Let that sink in for a moment and then lament everything that you've lost, because none of you care enough to take it back.
http://www.defundthensa.com/
Site created by the newly initiated http://taskforce.is/
http://www.hollowdepth.com
I don't care about the Americans. I would prefer them defund spying on the rest of the world. That will save them way more money.
Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
Justin Amash is just the kind of Representative that could really make this system work, if there were 430 more like him. He posts all of his votes online and explains his rationale, which is almost always concerned foremost with the legality of the proposed legislation.
For that reason, most of his amendments fail and he's usually on the losing side of popular votes. I'll be delighted if his amendment succeeds and is not subsequently removed in conference or by another amendment, but if I were a betting man, I would not bet on his effort tomorrow having any actual impact on the funding.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
Go take your ..."but its pointless" excuses and shove em up your ass.
At this point I'm not sure you can actually yank funds from the NSA. Their budget is secret, and they have as secret court system who's records are secret that they could use to overrule pretty much any funding provision.
The NSA has positioned itself completely out of congressional and executive oversight. It's pretty clear that they lie to both branches and get away with it, simply because they have the ability censor and withhold any documents that could prove that they're up to no good.
People get on the Govt's case (specifically the case of presidents and politicians they don't like) for supporting NSA actions.. I don't think it's quite that simple. Congress and the President get advice and information from the NSA and they depend on it for making policy decisions. The problem is the NSA could be feeding congress and the president bullshit, and we've got no way to prove that information right or wrong.
There's no accountability (God, I hate that overused word but it's appropriate in this context) and there is no oversight. There is simply no way to prove that there is or is no conflict of interest, and thus we cannot trust the NSA. (Even if it turns out all of their actions are completely justified!)
I was afraid somebody did vote for Ted.
Luckily it's somebody else.
Unfortunately, it seems he is nearly as crazy.
I've wondered this for some time now - what, precisely, makes Ted Nugent so "crazy?" Because he's a firm defender of the 2nd Amendment? Or perhaps because he's concerned about illegal government activities such as domestic spying and summary executions without due process?
Oh, I see - he's supported Republicans in the past. So, not so much "crazy," as "doesn't agree with my opinion 100%..."
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
We totally aren't tracking who calls their congressman to express support for the bill. Pinkie swear.
This is stupid ... at this rate only the pirates will have guns (big data analytics).
People should be advocating better oversight and more direct accountability instead of tearing down the walls of Rome.
Because he says insane things like that the president can suck his machine gun, or that if Obama gets reelected he'll be in prison or dead. How is it you didn't notice that he's gone crazy? He fits right in with the deranged wingnuts who ruined the Republican party.
I'll believe it when the NSA is actually defunded.
The more cynical side of me says this is bullshit politics as usual.
Here's what's really going to happen: the congressman is going to go to the NSA leadership, and say "look, I have hundreds and thousands of constituents who want to shut you down, but if you let me spy on my political opponents, and listen in on their calls, and help me sabotage them, then I can justify and risk continuance of your funding"
The more we petition them, the more they will be able to use shutting them down as a threat to get more political power that is turned against us. I predict it will be a cold day in hell before political leaders in DC give up that kind of power to spy on and blackmail people.
Or maybe because he crapped his pants to get out of going to war.
Real patriot there.
"None of the funds made available by this Act may be used to execute a Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court order pursuant to Section 501 of FISA 1978 which does not contain the following sentence: 'This order limits the collection of any tangible things (including [metadata]) that may be authorized to be collected pursuant to this Order to those tangible things that pertain to a person who is the subject of an investigation described in Section 501 of FISA 1978'."
In other words: Section 501 orders must be limited to the subject of a current investigation, or they will not receive funding. It's not about innocence, it's about being the subject of an investigation or not. No blanket orders, no three-hops rule.
Everything is better with chainsaws.
Sounds good; If it hadn't already been funded, transferred, and stabbed into the heart of the nation, forever transplanted and never to be removed. However, Congress somehow always feels that these types of charades appease the general public and lull them into feeling that the intrusions are really not there, and therefor no do exist. Meanwhile, the general public's loss of privacy, diminishing incomes, devaluating dollars, and loss of freedom marches steadfastly forward. While the stooges stay indefatigably glued to CNN to see who appears to win or loose. This issue is already lost long long ago regardless of the outcome. This is simply for entertainment, brain washing, and profit. Nothing more, nothing less. Now stare back into the whirling spiral and go back to sleep.... Burning Questions: How can a new law be written in such a way that it would be illegal not to be in possession of at least one full pint of Mr. Clean when in public place? How will this be enforced? Who would bear the financial burden of enforcement? Who would subsidize this, as Procter and Gamble already sacrifices some much for the nation as it is, and simply cannot bear these types of burdens any longer on their own?
"Congress cuts NSA spending. NSA submits new purchase request for $500 toilet rolls and $1,000 propelling pencils." ;)
Or maybe because he crapped his pants to get out of going to war.
Real patriot there.
OK, so maybe not the most patriotic thing to do, but is it really crazy? I mean, have you any desire to enter a combat zone?
Dickhead is a label I don't necessarily disagree with, just can't understand where this "crazy" nonsense comes from (actually, I do - calling someone crazy marginalizes them, and makes it easier to ignore everything they have to say, regardless of how sane it may be).
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
And that happened for a reason. Homeland security and the NSA may not run the country today, but I wouldn't count on tomorrow. The actual staff at the NSA tend to be decent and patriotic. The guys at the top.... are like guys at the top anywhere.
In soviet America, Homeland secures you.
Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
The Defense Appropriations Bill for 2014, aka H.R.2397. It's the Defense Department's budget.
Everything is better with chainsaws.
Because he says insane things like that the president can suck his machine gun, or that if Obama gets reelected he'll be in prison or dead.
What, precisely, is insane about that? Not being arch, I genuinely want to know if there's any valid reason why a man voicing his opinion would be considered an insane act.
Granted, those aren't the most intellectually sound statements ever, but I've heard worse; my current favorite is, "We must sacrifice our freedoms to protect our freedoms." No, seriously, someone said that to me as recently as today. Really.
I get the feeling that "crazy" in this debate can be translated to "holds an opinion I strongly disagree with."
"How is it you didn't notice that he's gone crazy? He fits right in with the deranged wingnuts who ruined the Republican party."
How is it that you can make such a broad generalization and still consider yourself sane? You should, as any sane person should, know that generalizations are defacto falsehoods, because to generalize is to assign specific factors to non-specific groups, and thus are highly inaccurate statements.
Anyway, I always knew the definition of insanity to be, "performing the same action over and over, while expecting a different result." By that definition, every single person who supports either of the major parties, expecting Candidate A to be functionally different than Candidate B, is off their nut.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
Pretend you're making a crank call but instead of the usual 12-year old stint, just say "I'm calling to voice my support for the Amash amendment. I want the funding stripped from the NSA and given to NASA instead". It will take all of 10 minutes and even if your rep is a douche, at least you don't have to be.
Join the Slashcott! Feb 10 thru Feb 17!
My congressman is McClintock who is a libertarian type in a very conservative (mostly ignorant, rural) area of California.
I agree with him on just about nothing except this one issue.
I call him (always get some office drone who doesn't know anything) often about lots of stuff even though I know he will ignore me.
I called him about this issue (where I know he is against NSA spying) and the office drone as usual said he didn't know how McClintock would vote.
We'll see if he buckles under to the Republican leadership or if he votes for the amendment.
I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
The other thing that could be clearer is that this has exactly zero chance of having any success.
Congress defunding something merely results in the administration transferring discretionary funds to the program so that nothing is changed, other than the Forest service doesn't get new ranger trucks this year, or the Coast Guard runs obsolete cutters for another year past their life expectancy (which expired 25 years ago).
The money thusly transferred will be totally lost in the morass of government accounting and end up being more secret than the secret budget of the NSA.
Until Congress gets the balls to outlaw this program with criminal penalties, simply taking away funds away is a pointless gesture, like sending a kid to his room with no desert, but sneaking a double helping of cake and cookies into his later.
Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
"We must sacrifice our freedoms to protect our freedoms" is a dumb statement, but not a crazy one. It makes a point, and it allows for rebuttal and debate. "Obama can go suck on my machine gun" is a crazy statement. Rather than put forward any argument, it's a personal threat against the man he disagrees with.
Take a counterpoint: Charlton Heston was a firm defender of the 2nd Amendment. He spoke loudly and openly for his Constitutional rights. But he did not (afaik, at least) spew vitriol, personal attacks, or threats. Both Heston and Nugent held opinions that I disagree with, but I consider Nugent and not Heston to be crazy.
Everything is better with chainsaws.
who is on which side - any optimists?
That system is so screwed up, it's unbelievable!!!
lets all hope it succeeds. sadly though it is nearly impossible to pass an ammendment
...one man in charge, that could issue an order halting the controversial practices of the NSA.
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Tangible+property
Interesting point. No definition of either "tangible" or "intangible" I can find mentions phone records. However, as the amendment itself specifically mentions phone numbers as included, I think it'd be decently tough to work around.
Everything is better with chainsaws.
Aaron Swartz when talking about the defeat of SOPA clearly pointed out that Congress is about control. They will not give up invading people's rights. Somehow we do not living exactly in a representative democracy. Unless we are totally paranoid self hating prison guards, this is not a government for an by the people.
-- Prepared at the direction of, or to be sent to Legal Counsel, in anticipation of litigation. Attorney Client Pri
Got my reps office (Wm. Lacy Clay, 1st District, MO) and asked that he vote for the defunding of domestic surveillance tomorrow.
We shall see how it goes.
BlameBillCosby.com
+1
"Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
--- Jerry Garcia
"We must sacrifice our freedoms to protect our freedoms" is a dumb statement, but not a crazy one. It makes a point, and it allows for rebuttal and debate.
I challenge you to try and debate that point with the people who make it. At the end of the conversation, at least one of you will be crazy.
"Obama can go suck on my machine gun" is a crazy statement. Rather than put forward any argument, it's a personal threat against the man he disagrees with.
So, if I said "Antipater can take a flying leap at a rolling doughnut," you'd consider that a crazy statement and threat? Because that's pretty much what Nugent did, albeit with slightly more violent rhetoric.
Take a counterpoint: Charlton Heston was a firm defender of the 2nd Amendment. He spoke loudly and openly for his Constitutional rights. But he did not (afaik, at least) spew vitriol, personal attacks, or threats.
Ironic to say the least, as Heston's famous "you can have my gun when you pry it from my cold, dead hands" statement could actually be construed as a direct threat of violence, whereas the Nugent statement you quote is essentially his way of saying, "Mr. President, go fuck yourself."
See, Heston was making a direct statement of violent intent based on the actions of another - i.e., if you try and take his gun away, he's going to defend his possession of it to the death. In Nugent's statement, all he said was that Obama "can suck on my machinegun," which is not a direct statement of violent intent, nor requiring any action on anyone else's part - hell, for all we know, the Nuge was referring to his own dick (this is my rifle, this is my gun...), which would make the statement more of a proposition than anything.
Both Heston and Nugent held opinions that I disagree with, but I consider Nugent and not Heston to be crazy.
Pardon me, then, if I find that an odd position to take, considering.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
...nothing is changed, other than the Forest service doesn't get new ranger trucks this year, or the Coast Guard runs obsolete cutters for another year past their life expectancy (which expired 25 years ago).
How is that ineffective? The more the government shits on people, the more it contributes to public dissent, the more public dissent and malcontent the closer people come to snapping.
It really saddened me when the government stepped in with TARP money. Sure they stopped a major financial crisis, but I wanted to see some CEOs being drawn and quartered as a deterrent for future CEOs.
I called my representative Jared Polis to tell him I support this and not only did a real person answer right away, he informed me that Polis is a co sponsor, which I'd have known if I'd read the whole article...
If you're keeping score, congress just told me to RTFA! This has to be a good thing right?!
So, today, I called Representative Bishop and urged him to support the Amash amendment.
Who knows? If a Utah Senator can acknowledge there is a problem, maybe there is some hope.
I made my letter available at: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Bd9crUNvPF71alxCVKcUmVarn80aJQJmZe4FLyzKWXU Feel free to mine it for suggestions for your own action.
An evil wizard, obviously, but not a monstrously evil one, since it's not a Microsoft logo.
that financed the NSA in the first place, dont expect them to actually defund them, if anything they just defund it on the surface and re-route the funds through the Dept of Defense where all the hidden funding goes through already
Politics is Treachery, Religion is Brainwashing
So, if I said "Antipater can take a flying leap at a rolling doughnut," you'd consider that a crazy statement and threat?
Um. if you told me to jump into a rolling doughnut, I might think you're crazy for different reasons.
As for "cold dead hands" vs. "suck on my machine gun", I find your interpretation as odd as you find mine. "Cold, dead hands" is a generalized statement of what lengths Heston was willing to go to to defend his guns. "Suck on my machine gun" is a specific threat, especially given the context of a concert in which he would shoot arrows at pictures of liberal candidates. Heston also (again, afaik) never called political opponents pieces of shit or worthless bitches, or called for them to be decapitated.
Everything is better with chainsaws.
I've wondered this for some time now - what, precisely, makes Ted Nugent so "crazy?"
Lots of reasons, but one thing he did recently was kill 450 hogs from a helicopter, using a machine gun. The feral hogs are a menace, and there is nothing wrong with hunting, but it is a bit disturbing when somebody revels in mass slaughter, and kills hundreds of animals for personal pleasure and the joy of killing. Killing for pleasure isn't the sign of a healthy mental state.
Looking at Nugent's proposal:
Would someone mind explaining where the hole is?
Oh. Nevermind, it's "(8) âoecontentsâ, when used with respect to any wire, oral, or electronic communication, includes any information concerning the substance, purport, or meaning of that communication;"
In other words, the subject line in an email is part of the contents-but not the fact that you emailed or called So-and-So.
Let me get this straight.
The same people who have destroyed the republic that once existed under the Constitution and Bill of Rights are going to defund drones?
If you believe that they actually do, I have some swamp land in Florida that is really beach front property you should buy.
No way in hell they are going to do that, even if the press says they do, they won't secretly.
The cache of industrial and financial information the NSA/CIA and its crony congressman get ALONE is far to valuable to just shut off.
-Hack
Got Geometrodynamics? Awe, too hard to figure out? Too bad.
Congress ended the Vietnam war by defunding it, this is no different.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
Its a lot different.
You can hid the cost of massive data gathering because its almost all automated, already in place, and all you have to do is
pay the power bill for the taps already in place at Verizon and other providers. Its just money and not that much of it.
Its not ships and planes and armies carrying on bombing campaigns.
Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
You might have missed the words "chain reaction" in the writeup. Anyone who isn't completely naive knows that this amendment, if it passes, isn't even close to the end of the story.
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I am of the rather cynical view that the Constitution is a thorn in the side of our fearless leaders, and yet a thorn we must endeavor to keep embedded. Regarding the story, whether or not the surveillance of American citizens is done on the above-board budget is probably irrelevant. If this surveilled intelligence has helped its gatherers in even an ephemeral way, the Pentagon's Black Budget is larger than around 120 nations' GDP. Tweaking H.R.Haldeman, the toothpaste is out of the tube and they don't want to get it back in.
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.
Ernest Hemingway
Which is exactly why it won't pass.
Regardless of posturing, none of these representatives are going to vote against the NSA since they were the ones that authorized this entire mess in the first place.
Remember that the Democratic Party will not let anything touch Obama, even if it means giving George Bush a pass.
Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
Actually, defunding this program has an enormous impact on pending court cases. One cannot argue that Congress has authorized this program if Congress has voted to deny it funding. As such, the executive branch would then be running an unauthorized program against the express will of the legislature. At that point, the primary argument against court challenges - that this is legal because it has Congress' stamp of approval - is moot and the court challenges actually have a better chance of having the program declared illegal.
At that point, if the executive branch continues running it, they risk massive backlash and someone (not someone -too- high up of course) will probably go to prison.
-- "Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
How congress can make sure the defund is really implemented? The problem with NSA spying is that it is opaque. How can it be checked that some money is used to spy on an innocent or a suspect person?
You used the word "amendment" in both clauses of your claim that the word "amendment" is too unclear...
Unity? Screw that: XFCE. Slashdot Beta? Screw that: SoylentNews. Australis? Screw that: Pale Moon. UX developers DIAF
You may be underestimating the number of congresscritters who are pissed off that they thought they were authorising one thing but the executive branch decided it meant something else.
Having said that, you may be right. Even then, the campaign is still not a waste of time. The longer the story stays in the news cycle, the better.
sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f(q{sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f});
"He said he would try to address the problem." TRY. He didn't say he will do it. :/
Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
intrusive NSA thing. While they watch you type your /. post.
With the smear campaign being launched against Snowden, (Including forcing allies to detain the executive planes of sovereign nations) it appears this administration will stop at nothing to defend this crazy program.
I have no doubt they will employ all forms of inducement, legal or illegal, to force their party to get in line.
I hope you are right, and I've underestimated the level of anger, but based on the weasel words in form letters I got from my representatives, I doubt it. 5 will get you 10, that they all cave in.
Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
"Who did you hear about this from? We've been getting a lot of calls about this."
--from a staffer in Frank Wolf's DC office, 10th district of Virginia around 5PM this evening
I asked the staffer if he was aware of the Rep. Wolf's position on the matter. He wasn't; I mentioned my concern and encouraged Wolf's support for the amendment that limits funding to the NSA's effort to broadly sweep up call data for domestic surveillance. When he asked who was driving this effort, I didn't say slashdot, but said the topic had been in the news with a big lawsuit being brought against the NSA by the EFF.
Apparently, all the IT folks up here in northern VA got the memo and called.
...when everything is a crime, everyone is a criminal.
that works usually to get stuff out of effect
I don't necessarily agree with your position, but you did the right thing. That is exactly the sort of thing that citizens should be doing. My metaphorical hat is off to you. I hope many follow your example. (Even if I hope at least some of them agree more with me.)
Well done.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
I think that might also be due is thinly veiled threats to shoot the president. I believe he was also a birther, not sure on that last one. Which all of those are crazy since his mother being his mother was never disputed and as such he was a natural born US citizen.
If you're a foreigner being spied on by the NSA, take it up with your own government. If YOUR government won't protect you from OUR government, consider getting a new government.
And that, girls and boys, is the reason why very small groups of people (aka governments) owns vast groups of people (aka citizens). Being selfish and ignorant makes you stupid, weak and easy to break into submission.
Distraction.
Domestic NSA spying is now cut off! Yaay!
(while at the same time, another government agency is hush-hush granted 10 times the cut amount for more quiet domestic spying)
Except around here these days it's more like
Government gains too much power, becomes oppressive. People rev... oh wait the next season of Big Brother is on, gotta go guys.
For what it's worth, it was a narrow defeat 217-205 with neither party voting in lockstep. It was close enough to make the White House sweat. If the point was to start a conversation, it looks like Rep. Amash got their attention. I'm not sure whether the American public will ever get to hear more about the program, but the administration is going to have to give a lot more information to a wider array of congressmen if they want their support. I have a feeling there were a lot of Democrats making a deal that they would vote with the White House this time in exchange for more information on the program before it comes up for a vote again. It's going to be a pretty unpopular vote to have on their record come election time. Amash clearly has a good PR bone here and he isn't going to just let this die quielty now.
Here's a list of congressmen to vote out:
http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2013/roll412.xml#N