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German Government Warns Windows 8 Is an Unacceptable Security Risk
An anonymous reader writes "Die Zeit has access to leaked documents from the German government warning that Windows 8 is an unacceptable security risk for sensitive workloads. The story is written in German here, but automatic translators (such as Google Translate) do a readable job. Particularly of concern is the inability to opt out of TPM 2.0 usage."
Windows has always been a Security Risk.
Danke.
Good thing alternatives exists.
I am not advocating they should "just change". I am just saying that on a personal level I am very happy that thrustworthy alternatives exists, and that Windows (no longer) is an requirement at the workplace or at home, but just an option.
Thank you, Stallman, Linus, and all you other people around the world, who have used your time to provide us with these alternatives.
And, yes, I know some people will claim that Windows is an requirement for the specific uses you have. I don't really care - for the wast majority of computing users around the world, Windows is an option, not an requirement. And, I am happy for that.
Everything Microsoft produces. I have the misfortune of working with the MS developers on a regular basis and if I had a nickle for every time they told me they didnt know how their own software works I'd be richer than Bill Gates.
Nevermind the inherent security flaws in their crap OS, my concern, and the concern from every foreign country should be MS's willingness to work with the NSA. If ever there was a time to ditch Microsoft and go Open Source it is now.
TPM is nothing more than a hardware keystore, I'm not sure how they'd see it as a security risk unless they're worried that the NSA has the MS signing key's private key (probable) but even then it doesn't exactly give you worse security than other OS's without access to a hardware keystore.
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
This doesn't make any sense. It's insecure because you can't NOT use TPM?
I don't respond to AC's.
If you actually had read the article, you would have seen that this is especially mentioned. Maybe the article is a little more insightful and balanced as you can imagine?
Where the BSI takes issue with their reporting.
Of course, with the extent now clear of the US government's use of US IT companies to maintain American political and economic advantages, if you were running a non-US-based company or a non-US-governmental organization, you'd want to do as much critical business with non-American hardware, software and services as possible.
One of the example searches about XKeyscore, (the NSA software that lets them do ad-hoc searches on everyone's private comms) was
"show me all new VPN connections in country X"
How does it get the VPN connection data? When I investigated Windows *7*, I notice that when a VPN connection is made by the OS, the software makes two connections, one directly to a Microsoft server bypassing the VPN and one through the VPN. Both share session ids. It seems to flag to Microsoft (and NSA) the two IP addresses (via the VPN / original un-routed VPN address).
So they're focussing on Windows 8, but Windows 7 has its share of nightmares.
Then has anyone looked at Symantec / Norton 360 etc.? With all it's "password vault" features and online URL checks. It could be the NSA has served these companies with secret warrants. So we may not be able to trust that it will flag NSA spyware, or that passwords are not making their way into the Utah Stasibase.
The BSI (Bundesamt für Sicherheit in der Informationstechnik) published a clarification after websites reported about that Windows 8 warning: https://www.bsi.bund.de/DE/Presse/Pressemitteilungen/Presse2013/Windows_TPM_Pl_21082013.html
Basically, they pedalled back a bit. They now claim they never warned about Windows 8 itself, but about possible risks when combining Windows 8 with TPM 2.0, because the user no longer has complete control over his system and that because of that, the user could end up in a situation where the system is permanently unusable. They no longer mention the US / the NSA and the possibility for backdoors, instead they now just mention the possibility of "sabotage", and the need for an opt-in AND opt-out for things like TPM 2.0.
...not used by anybody be a 'security risk'?
From Wikipedia's TPM talk page in 2007:
As much as I love the NSA looking through email and phone records, I would prefer that the had to *at least* work for it. Trusted Computing (What a crock BTW) says it can be turned off, but does anyone know how? Fosnez 07:52, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Have you seen any suspicious operating systems? Nein! I mean... 8!
Science advances one funeral at a time- Max Planck
I mean, the moment that "government" is included in a statement about technology policies, you should just look away. There is no reason why TPM makes Windows 8 less secure, and as a platform, Windows 8 is one of the most secure versions of Windows created. While I would argue greatly that Windows 8 is about as secure as any other OS (I mean hell, Linux is full of security patches just as much as any other mutha fucking OS), this screams of stupid anti-Microsoft lobbying using FUD as their "factual" grounds.
The point is moot because people are arguing about who is dominant on a dying platform. In 5 years nobody will use PC's/Macs/Linboxes except the people creating the content on the "other" 99.99% of the devices used by governments and the general population, and those other devices have way more security issues then a PC ever has had, regardless of what OS they are running.
I haven't thought of anything clever to put here, but then again most of you haven't either.
Wouldn't the Germans prefer SuSE?
I'd like to know when the Germans thought they had control over the operating system.
https://www.bsi.bund.de/DE/Presse/Pressemitteilungen/Presse2013/Windows_TPM_Pl_21082013.html
4th paragraph translated through google:
"From the perspective of the BSI, the use of Windows 8 in combination with a TPM 2.0 is accompanied by a loss of control over the operating system and the hardware used. This result for the user, especially for the federal government and critical infrastructure, new risks. In particular, on a hardware, which is operated with a TPM 2.0, with Windows 8 caused by accidental errors of the hardware or operating system manufacturer, is also the owner of the IT system error conditions that prevent further operation of the system. This can cause such an extent that in case of error in addition to the operating system and the hardware used is permanently no longer be used. Such a situation would not be acceptable for the federal nor for other users. In addition, the newly established mechanisms can also be used for sabotage of third parties. These risks need to be addressed."
There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
I'll stick with ignoring you, thanks. You do a great job of making my case for me without my help ;-)
Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
The advantage of Open Source is that you or anyone else can fix the software if/when security problems are found, whether in the OS, core libraries, network stack, or any Open Source applications. We are not dependent on the original developers to make any such fixes. I have done this a couple times in the past by fixing security issues in open source code before the developer fixes were available (I could have waited a day and got the developer fixes).
Advantage of closed source - you can edit the HOSTS file and be done instead of doing all that.
This space for rent.
to bad mac os is tied to limited and high cost systems the new mac pro does not even have slots and 2 video cards at base?
mac mini is to small
I don't like the other AIO's as well.
Laptops are high costs and hard to fix also can't do easy swapping of battery out as well.
I feel a comment from Sheldon Lee Cooper Ph.D should be heard at this point...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDdnAmEQf4A
You have the right to remain sentient. If you give up the right to remain sentient, you will be elected to public office
The US government cannot be trusted, and that means US corporations cannot be trusted.
What the fuck does China have to do with it?
If you're worried about them yellow reds and insist this is a problem because all the chips are made by them and the boards assembled by them, then you have no choice but to not use TPM2.0 because *CHINA* is not to be trusted.
IOW this TPM 2.0 "default on at first boot" is not a problem as long as governments buy only computers with a trusted signed Linux kernel and system. Additional advantage is that it's cheaper.
To be, or not to be: isn't that quite logical, Slashdot Beta?
They could have just stopped at "Unacceptable."
Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
I think the Microsoft Account and related stuff is also quite bad privacy and security risk. Apparently 8.1 will send your searches to Microsoft in a similar way to Unity's "Amazon shopping lens". When enabled, the IE SmartScreen filter will send your browser URLs to MS. All sorts of little things here and there -- "would you like to send information to company X to improve our services". I suppose you can get rid of most of it by carefully unticking each buried checkbox, but it's getting increasingly hard to opt out of this kind of junk. What if I just want to be alerted about Patch Tuesday updates?
apk?
You forgot to log in. Seems hard to trust you'd deliver high quality software if you posted with such vigor while forgetting that important point. Is it really you? Or, are you impersonating someone and besmirching their name with idiotically formatted posts?
Only I can judge you.
Here you go: it's a lot shorter, but it's still in German:
https://www.bsi.bund.de/DE/Presse/Pressemitteilungen/Presse2013/Windows_TPM_Pl_21082013.html
It's more nuanced: the Bundesamt für Sicherheit in der Informationstechnik (B.S.I.) says it *doesn't* warn agains Microsoft Windows 8, it only warns the (German) government not to use Microsoft Windows 8 in certain scenarios on computer hardware with TPM 2.0:
Then, they first say that you can go ahead and buy MS Windows 8 on a TPM computer, as long as you don't worry/care ("kümmern") about the security of that computer. (There must be use cases within national and other governments where it just doesn't matter so much that a computer is insecure).
In the next paragraph, If I read it correctly (German is not my first or second language), they warn against using MS Windows 8 on a TPM 2.0 computer in case where security is of value: for " die Bundesverwaltung und kritische Infrastrukturen", they warn for the dangers of D.O.S. attack and sabotage where both the hardware and software become unusable. You got to read it yourself if you don't like my crummy translation. Corrections welcome.
I interpret the end of the press message as: maybe one day there will be a TPM 3.0 spec with "(...) ein bewusstes Opt-In sowie die Möglichkeit eines späteren Opt-Outs (...)" and then the BSI would be happy again.
To be, or not to be: isn't that quite logical, Slashdot Beta?
As a German I get regularly headaches when I'm watching Fox News or similar "news". The American news are like game shows, flashing light, CGI effects, running texts everywhere, cut screens, cut clips. It's like news for babies, like the assumed average concentration span is only 5 seconds of the viewers.
http://www.mueller-public.de - My site http://www.anr-institute.com/ - Advanced Natural Research Institute
How long might it be before "trusted hardware" renders even [semi]-trusted operating systems such as Linux untrustworthy? Is this even an issue?
I played around with some of the Linux TPM tools on a Dell system.
Seems like all that it's meant to be is a way to sign stuff with a key locked to a machine that cannot be retrieved unless you know how to read the nonvolatile memory of the TPM chip.
The whole remote attestation crap is handled by something else, Intel's TXT being such an implementation I think. That would seem to be the feature you want to stay away from, or NICs that have an integrated TPM and I presume something with TXT also available ...
And on this system I could tell the TPM to create a new, revocable EK, which to my understanding is the "root" key in the whole TPM scheme.
I kinda like it. What's the big deal about the TPM other than I'm sure it has a hidden debug mode that reveals the EK to whoever the manufacturer wants to give that ability to.
It's GPL, so one should be able to remove the source code to any spyware and recompile it, right? Assuming that one knows what that is
You must be using the industry definition of "Quality", i.e. compliance with quality standards like ISO 9001. Your comment reminds me of a business plan, "Monkey Maid Service", made by an engineer friend of mine:
Step 1: Purchase a supply of monkeys, monkey housing, and monkey chow from traceable sources, documenting the origins of every piece of material involved.
Step 2: Draft a standard process for "Performing maid service" using the monkeys purchased in step 1. If I recall correctly, his rough draft of this process included "dress the monkeys in French maid costumes, then release them in the house for the period of time specified in the contract".
Step 3: Have supervision in place to ensure work performance follows documented procedure, and record performance metrics (% monkeys dressed as French maids, deviation from contract time) for auditing purposes.
Step 4: Advertize the service as ISO 9001 compliant.*
If every can of Budweiser tasting the same is your definition of quality, then sure, it's a quality product. By the way, my friend has a maid service you may be interested in using after your next party.
*I've probably missed a few crucial 9001 compliance steps; quality geeks, please don't crucify me over that ;)
"Space Exploration is not endless circles in low earth orbit." -Buzz Aldrin
If there ever are any rollbacks to NSA spying, it will be done not because of right and wrong or on Constitutional grounds, but merely due to the decline in fucking corporate profits.
On the one side, you have hackers from everywhere, just aching to add your machine to their botnet (while ISPs just stand there, whistling, looking the other way), and on the other side, you have Microsoft behind whose back stands an ever more enabled US government, ready to copy your secrets 'for your own security, or that of the state'.
And you *must* choose. I say PJ had a point - that choice is just un-makeable.
Religion is what happens when nature strikes and groupthink goes wrong.
Of course. Get back to us with what you find.
Once the reprogramming has been completed the headaches will go away.
Indeed. Cretinization of a whole large population.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
With the Raspberry Pi, we got the start of the open ARM PCs. If Microsofts succeeds in closing the x86 ones, I don't think they'll get the expected result.
Rethinking email
the new mac pro does not even have slots
And the original iMac didn't have a floppy drive. What do slots do that Thunderbolt doesn't?
Perhaps it is the google translation but I don't understand the logic in the point being made by TFA.
I agree the world is better off without TPM or anything like it because it becomes too cheap and easy for opressive regimes to lock down computation to only approved operating systems modified to constantly monitor and snitch on the end users activities. There is also risk of PCs turning into lockdown hell that is smart phones and tablets.
Real world "secure boot" benefits to end users are questionable at best. With physical access all bets are off and an attacker could just as easily replace a motherboard as they could a disk drive.
The "freedom" arguments seem to be logically separate from trust argument being made..and this is the problem I don't understand how TPM negativly impacts trust in a vendor/OS.
It seems to me whether the operating system is booted secure or insecure you are still very much at the mercy of the underlying OS not to do shit behind your back contrary to your interests. This requires trust in the vendor and trust in the legal regime the vendor is bound by force to operate.
If you want to say MS is not trustworthy because of NSA fine. If you want to say MS is not trustworthy because it is Microsoft fine... But the TPM argument...I simply don't see the connection.
I was reading your comment and then OOOOH SHINY!
If you were me, you'd be good lookin'. - six string samurai
... Sigh.. the better joke: TL;DR
If you were me, you'd be good lookin'. - six string samurai
But we might not have that choice in front of us today if MS had done its Windows (software, not hardware) security push a decade earlier. They allowed criminal organizations to become well established and resourceful.
"Another should be that if a novice user decides to try programming lots of high-level features using tools that came with the OS, they should be able to create a single executable file or appfolder that can be easily run on another system running the same platform without gotchas... ie a predictable runtime environment."
So, let's look at this another way out.
By making this statement, the German government is informing the population of people they are legally/politically responsible for, the German people.
So, the German government can release themselves of any responsibility for what happens to you or your information if you're a German using Windows 8.
Does the headline read, "German government bans Windows 8 in Germany"? No.
So, this is similar to the President of the American Psychiatric Association stating to the press that the field of Psychiatry has no idea how psych meds work or what they really "do", that it's all theoretical. Though he stated this in context of an academic rebuttle on a loosely related subject, it was still a statement. And didn't the rate of class action lawsuits against the drug companies over the side effects of psych meds decline to the point where it's been awhile but new drugs are still coming out all the time? Or are we to believe the art was also, coincidentally, perfected at around the same time?
Now the German government is released from responsibility of what happens to you or your computer while you're using Windows 8.
But wait, there's more!
Not only could you no longer hold the German government responsible for protecting you while you use Windows 8 as a German citizen ... *gasp*!
You can't hold the German government responsible for what the German government does to or with your computer as a citizen of *any* country while you're using Windows 8, especially not if you dare to contact a server or client located somewhere in Germany!
"Stratigraphically the origin of agriculture and thermonuclear destruction will appear essentially simultaneous" -- Lee
Android is malware ridden also!
So is GNU/Linux if you talk the end user into adding the wrong repository.
most computers will be arm based iOS, Android, Chrome style devices.
This means most computers won't be able to access much of YouTube ("The content owner has not made this video available on mobile"), the free version of Spotify or Hulu, or much of Facebook (need a desktop computer to create a nickname, Page, or ad).
Two trollmods for sharing facts with you. These facts must be important.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
As far as I know, SuSE is still in Germany. Hence, its officers are subject to arrest in Germany.
Here - chew on these now - they're security advisories from a reputable & respectable enough source:
http://secunia.com/advisories/product/42761/
http://secunia.com/advisories/product/40664/
http://secunia.com/advisories/product/28234/
http://secunia.com/advisories/product/17543/
http://secunia.com/advisories/product/29592/
http://secunia.com/advisories/product/16896/
http://secunia.com/advisories/product/42480/
http://secunia.com/advisories/product/43263/
http://secunia.com/advisories/product/29809/
http://secunia.com/advisories/product/32977/
* QUESTION: How many unpatched security issues are there in those tools from Microsoft?
That's just great. Now how about these?
http://secunia.com/advisories/product/27467/
http://secunia.com/advisories/product/1175/
http://secunia.com/advisories/product/18255/
http://secunia.com/advisories/product/13223/
http://secunia.com/advisories/product/43073/
http://secunia.com/advisories/product/34591/
http://secunia.com/advisories/product/21625/
http://secunia.com/advisories/product/17277/
I think that the lesson here might be that if you're not on the very latest release of a Microsoft product, even if what you're running is still supported, you'll be low priority for security patches. Latest release gets patched promptly, but previous major release doesn't.
"City hall" in German is "Rathaus" Kinda explains a few things......
When did that increase occur? Last time I looked at US-ian TV, 3 seconds was considered a long attention span.
Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
It is hard to take someone seriously who not only calls Linux bad for developing when every developer worth his salt knows it is far better, but then goes further to refer to game developing as if that is the gold standard. Obviously if you want to play games, toys are better for that, and Windows is where you want to stay. If you want to develop real software that actually serves a business purpose, Linux is far superior. Maybe you didn't know that the vast majority of the big name companies from Google and Facebook to Industrial Light and Magic use Linux these days. I don't know.
Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun