Slashdot Mirror
Tesla Model S Can Hit (At Least) 132 MPH On the Autobahn
cartechboy writes "There are few places in the world outside of a race track that you can safely--and legally-- go faster than 130 mph, but the Autobahn in Germany is one of them. After Tesla announced it'll offer a future special 'autobahn' tuning package to improve the Model S's high-speed driving characteristics, one owner took his car for a high-speed run on the infamous Germany highway. He hit a maximum speed of 212 km/h, or 132 mph. With 416 horsepower on tap and full torque available from a standstill thanks to the electric motor, the Model S went from 60 mph to 100 mph in less than five seconds. (Given the included video is mostly focused on the speedometer, lets hope the driver at least glanced at the road.) Only once the car passed 100 mph did its acceleration begin to slow."
Where did you get this magic electric Toyota Maxima?
Where is there a section of I95 without a speed limit? Or did you break the law?
I'm not a car enthusiast, so I may be misinformed. But 60 to 100 in only five seconds is very impressive, is it not?
Everything is better with chainsaws.
Considering the Maxima was made by Nissan and not Toyota, absolutely.
Otherwise, not so much. ;-)
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
Impressive. But stupid. Yes, the autobahn has unlimited speed, but they also require that the vehicle be in serviceable condition. Given the warning indicator for the tire pressure system, I kinda wonder if the tires were properly inflated and in good condition. But at least the test wasn't for long.
416 horse power and it can only do 132 mph is nothing to brag about.
My car can do 140 mph with only 200 horse power.
what is the range while doing said 132 mph?
I took the hill down into Wabuska in a 1973 Ford Courier at over 100 mph. Stock. Beat that.
If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
That's the manufacturer specified range under certain conditions. The range won't be the same for all power outputs. It's most likely not at it's most efficient at 132 MPH. That's not to say that any other car is (perhaps F1), but I'd like to see how it compares to gasoline cars that are also going at full throttle.
Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
WOW! 300 miles at 132 mph.
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
Sure, but no gasoline car gets 300 miles at 130mph either.
also are there any tesla battery swap stations on the autobahn?
Yeah, I can't recall the last time I had a car that would not exceed 140 MPH, but none of them were electric. That does sound fun, but I am guessing range at that speed was about 50 miles. My old Porsche could do better than 30 MPG until about 90 and then fuel economy went off a cliff above that.
What's the range of the petrol car once you're at 132mph?
Infamous autobahn? I don't think that word means what you think it means.
more than the tesla...
On top of that, unless it was a different car than the one here, it couldn't have gone 145 mph, because the top speed was only 137 mph. 145 mph is 232 km/h, and most speedometers don't even go that high, so I wonder how it was accurately measured, especially in 1993 when GPS units weren't common.
Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
No one said that.
Nor does any gasoline car I know of do that.
At those speeds air resistance becomes a real impediment to fuel economy.
Citation?
I believe it, but I bet it would be pretty close. Especially since the Tesla is way more aerodynamic than most saloons. At those speeds air resistance will be a major factor.
What's the range of the petrol car once you're at 132mph?
Better than an electric piece of shit.
It's quick. But an Ariel Atom is 'very impressive'. 0-100, 5.4 seconds.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
I may be able to afford one.
At about 150 it becomes apparent that most cars are basically airfoils.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
"Here in the U.S., Tesla Model S owners are likely to rarely reach the carâ(TM)s 130 mph top speed..." Does Montana still have no speed limit during the day?
What cars do you buy?
Many common modern cars are limited below that. ~100mph is a pretty common cut off.
A Porsche is not really a normal car, they are designed for enthusiasts.
The Model S has a fixed 9.73:1 ratio.
upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
Well, lets says it's 5 mpg * 20 gallons, I would say you'd get around 100 miles in a stock street legal sports car.
2. Tesla swap stations don't exist yet and when they do, they're not a swap so much as an expensive rental with lots of fine print. Remember when blockbuster (remember blockbuster?) eliminated late fees? Great... but if you didn't return it in time, they decided you bought it and charged you even more. Guess what happens if you don't return your "swapped" batteries back to the same swap station within their specified time frame?
Do you even lift?
These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.
So Germans never visit other nations?
That does not seem to match up with what I saw in Europe.
There are trains and planes and such. Cross-country drives are much less common here.
Appropriate (what if) xkcd
Meh. My 1964 VW Microbus can go from 0 to 60... on a good day.
agreed, i don't have exact numbers as for some reason no one keeps such info ;)
however my 06 s4 did little over 80 miles at 135 (average) before i stopped to get gas. tank wasn't full but pretty close to start and it was a little less than quarter full at stop. so maybe 90 miles in that one specific example.
at 100 it went for over 200 miles so a pretty sharp drop...
Oh my, a very hyped up and expensive car .. can go ... a lot slower than other, cheaper cars.
Definately newsworthy ...
Dang fanboys http://tech.slashdot.org/story/13/11/05/173223/tesla-model-s-can-hit-at-least-132-mph-on-the-autobahn#
What's the range of the petrol car once you're at 132mph?
Better than an electric piece of shit.
Jeremy Clarkson, is that you?
An Ariel Atom is also pretty much the absolute bare minimum you can call a "car".
Quick, go fix Wikipedia.
It is true: the Autobahn is a single, linear tunnel straight through the core of the earth. Great way to get to Fiji.
I'd guess I wouldn't get the one they took from me back and I'd have to keep this new/old/different one.
Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
150 is the most common cutoff for fast cars. Even cars that don't go that fast in stock form.
At about 150 aerodynamic forces like to lift the front wheels off the ground on cars that aren't specifically setup (spoilers and airdams) to go that fast.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
I dunno, my Scion FR-S (Toyota 86/GT86/FT86 elsewhere) isn't limited at least until 110mph. In New Jersey, opportunities to go that fast are rare, let alone faster.
Speedometers display a number higher than the actual speed. Kind of like when your measure your pecker in centimeters rather than inches. In fact, the Tesla autobahn package is nothing more than an adjustment to the speedometer fudge.
Do you even lift?
These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.
I'd hate to be motoring down the Autobahn at 130-140 mph and run out of battery. A gasoline or diesel powered car has a range of 300-500 miles (depending on speed, engine efficiency, and size of tank), so assuming a 1/2 full or better tank, running out of fuel after 80-100 miles is not an issue.
At 130+ MPH a gasoline or diesel powered car gets nowhere near 300-500 miles of range. They most likely are getting sub 10 mpg.
Shawn's Tech Articles
+1 Funny, yes with a good tail wind (hurricane style)
With the turbo kicked in and out...I usually got about 10mpg out of that engine. Granted, it had been raced before I bought it, and from what I know, it wasn't exactly a street legal compression in the engine, but my range from fill up to fill up (not fully empty mind you) was about over 200 miles....250 - 260 or so?
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
The pricing scheme is supposed to be set lower than an equivalent amount of gasoline in the local market, so there's that.
It's quick. But an Ariel Atom is 'very impressive'. 0-100, 5.4 seconds.
The Atom is missing certain luxury elements in order to achieve it's admittedly extremely fast acceleration. Like windows. And a roof.
Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.
most speedometers don't even go that high, so I wonder how it was accurately measured, especially in 1993 when GPS units weren't common.
He was being paced by a Honda Mustang (with the upgraded speedometer package) being driven by a unicorn.
Yep, it's perfect.
I was shocked to see some idiot had ruined one by putting batteries and an electric motor into one.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
There..fixed that for you...
And with the US being so large, one can travel here for a lifetime seeing new and different things and people and never have to leave the country.
Not necessarily a bad thing, just a different experience based upon geological location.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
I've got a 2.0, fuel injected porsche motor that will fix that.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Two magic words here:
Radar Detector
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
No, there's no way a Citation could hit 132 MPH
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
Yes, because a 600 kilo 4.9 cubic metre F1-style sports car is the same as a 2,100 kilo 14.0 cubic metre luxury hatchback sedan.
Really? You know, how so? I have driven those types of stretches and at that speed can get that mileage. And yes I live in Europe and yes I lived in Germany.
"You can't make a race horse of a pig"
"No," said Samuel, "but you can make very fast pig"
Probably he just ran into a truck overtaking a truck, or roadworks.
You get those every few kilometers on the Autobahn.
nice, mine was pretty stock other than lighter wheels and exhaust.
Definitely less than 10, that would be the upper limit of the MPG you might get at those speeds.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
Still, for an all electric vehicle, 132mph (with no worries about blowing up your engine) is a damn impressive speed to me.
Wow you have a really inefficient car... I regularly drive the Zurich - Frankfurt route, and can get from point A to point B in one tank driving REALLY fast! Sure there are spots where I am limited to 150 KPH, but other times I drive 250 if I can.
"You can't make a race horse of a pig"
"No," said Samuel, "but you can make very fast pig"
I thought is was 131. My old Mazda MX-6 was 131 or 132 - it was in the electrical schematics. Found it once on I70 west of Baltimore. It took noticeably more time than the Tesla to achieve fuel cut-off speed than the Tesla.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
It's about the top speed of a slightly above average saloon car in Europe. For instance a Mondeo 2.0 Tdci is only 5mph slower at 127. On a German Autobahn it will be repeatedly flashed to get out of the way.
I'm amazed that 416hp keeps the speed down so much. Some years ago Lotus (in)famously customised the (GM) Carlton/Omega to output 377BHP with a top speed of about 175 mph. IIRC its about the same size and shape as a Tesla S.
Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
Karma: Chameleon
not at 130mph, where you're consuming fuel at a FAR higher rate and you're likely to be in the low teens as far as MPG.
Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
If by "ruined" you mean "turned into a monster of savage acceleration and broke a number of records with."
Sure it's no longer exactly a lightweight, but still lighter than the lightest of your average production cars and certainly not "ruined."
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
If you have to ask, you wouldn't understand the answer....
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
not really, no. In that amount of time, a lot of cars can do 0-100. New hybrid mclaren will do 0-60 in 2.8, but can't remember what it's 0-100 is, but it does a standing quarter mile in 10.2 seconds at 145mph
So you're saying it's not impressive because it's not as quick as the top-tier, 7-digit-price hypercars?
Tough crowd...
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
Tesla swap stations don't exist yet and when they do, they're not a swap so much as an expensive rental with lots of fine print.
Citation? Your post is the first place I've heard of any time-limit rules like that.
I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
Florida uses airborne traffic enforcement heavily. When I used to drive down the length the peninsula, I had a nice mileage log with the location of every enforcement zone on the route noted. Handy, that.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
Just checked the numbers for F1. They've removed fuel stops, for those that don't know. The Montreal Grand Prix is 305 km, and last year the top time of 1:32:09.143, giving an average speed of 199 km/h. For those non-metric folk, that's 190 miles, averaging 124 mph. They spend a good deal going much faster than that. I think that an F1 car might be able to make the 300 mile mark at 160 mph if properly tuned. Although even then it might have a had time.
Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
Never mind your "beast". ANY decent luxury sedan can cruise at 130MPG. I've done this myself on American roads.
The autobahn and BMWs are both overrated.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
That doesn't match my experience from driving with an independently verified GPS speed...if anyone is selling a street-legal car with an inaccurate speedo, there are some standards bodies who would like to be notified...
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
It's ruined. It's slower, much slower around corners.
The Atom is traction limited. Adding weight, even if you add torque is not a gain.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Unless it has a JTOL on its roof.
There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
At about 150 aerodynamic forces like to lift the front wheels off the ground on cars that aren't specifically setup (spoilers and airdams) to go that fast.
Maybe on certain older designs, you rarely see that on 80s and later cars. On modern cars if there are any lift problems, it's always at the back.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
That's fer sure. In America you can drive to such fascinating places as the Grand Canyon, Utah, or Pittsburgh.
anyhow, almost any 2l or bigger motored car goes over 210 so what's the point here?
That was my first thought here. Every other car in Tesla's class (the V8 luxury sedans, all with similar HP) is either limited to 250 KPH (156 MPH), or goes a lot faster for the few with expensive tires. Going over 100 safely is all about tires and getting enough downforce to not lift off the road. I wouldn't think the Tesla would have either problem getting to 250! Beyond 250 you really do need tires that would noticeably inflate the price of the car, so few models come that way.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
...Kind of like when your measure your pecker in centimeters rather than inches...
Just one more reason to move to the metric system.
There is a huge difference between driving for range, driving sanely on the highway, and driving on the track. Here are my numbers, and they are real, recorded on the spot, as opposed to remembered.
The car: Volvo S60-R, modded to 460hp at the wheels, AWD fuse pulled.
Average MPG as of this morning: 29.7mpg. (It got smogged on Saturday, the guy took two tries and two hours, lowering my MPG by a full mile)
Usual average MPG: 31mpg
Best MPG from a trip: 36mpg (Chino Hills/San Diego and back)
MPG from a highway trip where I was driving like a moron: 8.7mpg (Chino Hills/Las Vegas)
Worst MPG ever: 3.3mpg on the track.
I've done 560 miles on a tank, and I have emptied my tank in under 60 miles. It really matters how you drive...
No good deed goes unpunished...
Round here? 'til the next cop car.
"but I bet it would be pretty close"
You'd lose your money.
The energy density of petrol, and better yet, diesel cars is still unequalled.
Any number of modern diesels will better 132 mph and keep doing that for - literally - hundreds of miles.
The Tesla will be dead after less than 50 @ vMax.
The energy density of petrol, and better yet, diesel cars is still unequalled.
That's irrelevant, because in an internal-combusion engine, most of that energy is just wasted as heat, and only a small fraction is used for locomotion. In an electric car, close to 100% of the stored energy is used for locomotion (unless maybe you have the heater on). You don't need the energy density of gasoline to make an electric car competitive with gas cars. (And diesel cars mostly don't exist in the US, or have insanely-high price tags: the VW models I've looked at carry a $5k surcharge to get the diesel engine.)
And no diesel or gas car is going to go 132mph for hundreds of miles, unless you've added an auxiliary fuel tank or something, because the efficiency at 132mph is crap, so you'll burn through your fuel tank in a much shorter distance than if you drove at an economical speed like 65mph.
Maybe in freefall...
Ever notice that Cobra Commander sounds an awful lot like Star scream?
The engine doesn't magically cut out at a car's rated "top speed."
Well that depends on the car, and more importantly the speed rating of the tires it's sold with. Many cars are electronically limited, mostly due to the manufacturer choosing not to sell them with Y or Z rated tires. Sure, you can remove the limiter with a programmer but still, out of the box many cars do indeed magically cut out at their rated "top speed"
I browse on +1 so AC's need not respond, I won't see it.
It's a big, heavy car and it really doesn't have that much HP.
Electric cars have a lot of torque down low so people think they are immensely powerful, but they really aren't. Not that it matters much most of the time.
The Tesla S will also begin to slow down due to overheat in just a few minutes truly hard driving. Drivers testing the car at the refuel event at Laguna Seca said the cars started to reduce power after only 2 full power laps on the track.
http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
http://green.autoblog.com/2013/06/21/tesla-model-s-battery-swap-takes-just-90-seconds/
Musk framed the choice to Supercharge or swap as one between "free or fast." While Supercharging costs a Model S driver nothing, getting a new, fully charged battery pack will cost around the same as about 15 gallons of gas (so, let's say around $60). Later, you can get your old pack back (again, fully charged and for another $60 fee) or you can pay an undetermined fee and keep the pack. Forbes says there will be a warranty available on the replacement pack, depending on its condition.
BS. You even said you're not driving 132mph. Your efficiency at 132mph will be much, much lower than at any normal highway speed up to 85mph since air resistance goes up exponentially with speed. Come back to us when you have some real mpg numbers at 132mph.
Pittsburgh ok but what's in the grand canyon?
I call bullshit on you. Go look at your link again. That Corvette is doing 1640rpm at 75 mph, or 120 kph. The graph doesn't go any higher than 75mph.
I'd love a Tesla for round-the-city driving, don't get me wrong, but 300 miles is an awfully generous; that's in ideal weather (warm enough the batteries don't suffer and cool enough you can get away without A/C) and at 55mph. Who the hell drives long distances at 55 mph? I'm sure some people do, but most people who have to go that distance are able and choose to take an interstate and go much faster.
It's not at all hard to get to get an estimate of a maximum range of around 180 miles in poor but realistic situations. The worst their calculator supports is 65mph at 32 degrees with the heater on, and there it's 218 mph. What would it get if it was 20 degrees and you were going at 70 (like the speed limit on the Indiana and Ohio turnpikes)?
Why are people talking about 300m being some kind of a long trip. Take Southern California for example. Literally millions of people drive to Las Vegas or Bay Area every year, many of them multiple times a month. Both of those trips are outside Tesla range. Tesla will be great when there is a supercharger station in just about every gas station. Even then 20 minutes for 50% charge kinda sucks, but I think I could live with that. Until then it is still not a realistic option as the only car for most people in this part of the world. Most families here have multiple cars through so I can see Tesla being one of them though.
Negative moral value of force outweighs the positive value of good intentions.
I was on the phone, probably touched somehting I wasn't suppoed to.
s/keep/buy/ and you'll have it right.
Electric motors typically have way more torque than internal combustion engines.
If I recall correctly, Priuses (Prii?) have their electric motors limited below 30 kph because otherwise the fast acceleration will break the drive train.
You can never know everything, and part of what you do know will always be wrong. Perhaps even the most important part.
I don't think that any mod that makes a car's lap times worse necessarily "ruins" it. If there are people with similar tastes in the drag racing crowd they probably consider half the mods that make cars corner better to "ruin it." Not to mention the offroad crowd...
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
Plus a significant handling fee, I imagine. Otherwise, what incentive would you have to bother?
The cow says "Moo." The dog says "Woof." The Timothy says "Thanks, valued customer. We appreciate your input."
And even worse, during an actual race they brake and accelerate a lot, which uses a lot more fuel than going a constant speed. Like the "City" versus "Highway" mileage ratings.
In an electric car, close to 100% of the stored energy is used for locomotion (unless maybe you have the heater on).
And the headlights, and the radio, and the bluetooth adapter, and the fans for the climate control system, and the ECU, and the BCU, etc.
Which leads me to a question I've wanted answered for some time: under normal usage, when all those things I mentioned are drawing power... how does it all break down usage wise? For example, I can go into the Settings screen on my Android device and see how much battery power has been used by what hardware/apps; what do you think that screen might look like for a Tesla S?
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
What's the range of the petrol car once you're at 132mph?
Better than an electric piece of shit.
Jeremy Clarkson, is that you?
Nah, he'd have had a much better burn than 'electric piece of shit.' That's the kind of wit I would expect to come from a James May fan.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
In New Jersey, opportunities to go that fast are rare, let alone faster.
2Wycked does it all the time!!
The cow says "Moo." The dog says "Woof." The Timothy says "Thanks, valued customer. We appreciate your input."
He was infamous for his "infamous"?
"Happy families are all alike; every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way." -- Anna Karenina by Leo Tolstoy
I'd guess I wouldn't get the one they took from me back and I'd have to keep this new/old/different one.
Yup, and probably have to pay the difference between the core (which is what they'll classify your old battery as, regardless of how new it might be) and the brand-new retail price of the pack. How much does one of those cost new, anyway?
If Tesla owns all the swap stations in-house, you might get off lucky (after all, who would want to royally piss of their own customers by screwing them over and over again? In the private sector, anyway); but if the swap stations are independently owned, it would likely be a completely different story.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
The pricing scheme is supposed to be set lower than an equivalent amount of gasoline in the local market, so there's that.
There's what? Idle speculation based on what a for-profit company says they might do in the future?
"Supposed to" == vaporware, for all intents and purposes. I'll believe it when I see it.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
My Audi S4 seems to be able to translate what impact my AC has on fuel. It gives a little graph stating how many gallons per hour it's using. I'm sure if the Tesla S has the appropriate sensors a nice little info screen must be hiding around somewhere.
Every time I start to have faith in humanity, I ruin it by driving to work between 7 and 8 am.
And the headlights, and the radio, and the bluetooth adapter, and the fans for the climate control system, and the ECU, and the BCU, etc.
None of that stuff uses any significant amount of power. Headlights are about 35-40W for Xenons, radio is surely less than 10W with today's class-D amplifiers, you have to be a total moron if you think Bluetooth uses any significant power, climate control fans are maybe 10W, ECU etc. are a few watts max. Compared to the Tesla's battery pack that supplies several thousand amp-hours of energy, all that stuff is nothing. The only thing that's going to affect range in any significant way is the use of the heater or air conditioning. In real driving, your driving style is going to have far more impact on the range: whether you accelerate too much, brake too much (and don't use regenerative braking), or even if you have the sunroof open.
How about a citation for that?
Name one car that can go those distances at those speeds. Fuel economy suffers at these speeds pretty badly.
A 400+ hp car that is streamlined and only does 132 mph ,that is exceptionally slow. Cars with half that bhp can reach that speed. Must be due the lack of a suitable gearbox - as in, no gearbox at all?
I'm Chilean, so I'm American
Wow... just... just, wow.
Do we really need to have this discussion again? Because it was stupid last time.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
The engine doesn't magically cut out at a car's rated "top speed."
Actually, I used to have a Nissan Maxima and it does actually did have an electronic engine governor based on the speed of the car. The way I know this is a fact is that I accidentally experienced it on I-80 straight-away in the salt-flats just outside of salt lake city*** Since the road was straight, I wanted to see how fast I could go, but apparently, not faster then the governor.
Of course you could always remove this hardware...
** I'm sure the statute of limitations expired on this transgression as it was many, many moons ago
All speedometers are inaccurate, they all show a higher value than the actual speed. But there actually are cars where you can tweak the speedo to take in account different wheel sizes and maybe it's possible to get a measurement that way that is too low..
Mine also gets the 26 mpg up to about 80 mph. Afraid to average more than this for long stretches due to the high cost of citations.
With 416 horsepower on tap and full torque available from a standstill thanks to the electric motor, the Model S went from 60 mph to 100 mph in less than five seconds.
Ok... what does the whole "100% torque from standstill" thing have to do with 60-100 time?
You do realize that 60 MPH is not a standstill, don't you, cartechboy? Lord I hope so...
P.S. I found a nice chart of the 60-100 times of a host of automobiles here for those that are interested in how the Tesla S stacks up.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
e-bay honda mustang
Every time I start to have faith in humanity, I ruin it by driving to work between 7 and 8 am.
Tire pressure MONITORING system.
If you owned a car with one, you'd know they are the bane of your existence. They're constantly failing.
Neither of us has any idea whether he checked tire pressure before he did the run. 130mph isn't really that super-duper in a modern car with tires rated for it...as noted, a decent number of people to it on the autobahn, or the Nurburgring, every day.
Please help metamoderate.
Writing as German regularly driving on the Autobahn at speed.
>Driving at this speed means you don't respect safety of other drivers.
Couldn't be any more wrong.
The German driving licence testing and education is very thorough and strict. It's not like in the US where you drive round the block and you are done.
The technical inspections are taken very seriously. Unsafe cars, even by the slightest idea to be unsafe, are not allowed on the streets and the police will actively stop you in an unsafe car.
There are 7.2 road fatalities per 100,000 cars per year in Germany (one of the lowest globally). In the US it is 15. More than twice as much. Despite you insane low speed limits. Driving on the autobahn is in fact the safest way to drive in Germany. No crossings, no traffic lights, nothing to worry about.
AND : the huge difference is that you are ONLY allowed to overtake on the left lanes, while in the US it's pure chaos and lanes seem to be almost meaningless.
That makes everything pretty predictable. Even at 125+ mph. And 125mph isn't THAT fast on the autobahn. Sure some are creeping with ca. 60 mph (that's how fast the trucks are allowed to go) and that's fine. But no one feels unsafe. The only risk is when people are suddenly braking or switching lanes without indicating (which they really really shouldn't do)
>The German law is idiot
I guess you mean idiotic. But it's not. It's called freedom. Booyah.
And proper driving education ensures it is safe for everyone.
>How about safety for non-motorized traffic?
No non-motorised traffic allowed on the autobahn. In fact you are not even allowed on the autobahn when you car isn't capable of doing a MINIMUM speed of 38 mph. And you are not allowed to drive SLOWER than that except in the case of congestions. Not even road work will you slow down below that threshold.
>Why do car drivers seem to like very high acceleration numbers?
1. It's fun
2. It's security reserve to avoid obstacles and dangerous situations. Not kidding. It really is. Be able to get out of the way very quickly is a safety feature.
Not exponential, quadratic I thought. So power goes up by the third power. Twice the speed, 8 times the power. But it's not accurate, otherwise a Veyron could do 500 kph with only 125 bhp.
Read the comment you replied too.
http://www.gizmag.com/go/4003/
From 2005. Mercedes E320 CDI, diesel sedans on a track.
I mean 200kph for the Veyron. duh.
My 2004 RX8 was 145-148 'ish. The 2008 MX5 was something like 140. I'm sure it depends on the car. I haven't had the location or space to see what my Audi S4 will do, but at 135 or so the slightest rise in the track becomes a bit scary... but I consider it more of a "luxury" than a "sports" car.
Every time I start to have faith in humanity, I ruin it by driving to work between 7 and 8 am.
It's not exponential. Energy required per unit distance is roughly proportional to the square of speed.
So, if AC's Vette gets 26 MPG at 66 mph, then it would work out to roughly 6.5 MPG at 132 mph.
I had an old Volvo 740 with the boost bumb up kit and the extra fuel mod. At 130 MPH I swear you could see the gas gauge move!
from what I know, it wasn't exactly a street legal compression in the engine,
Street legal compression? I've never heard of a state that has limits on compression ratios. Granted, if you get too high using pistons on a naturally aspirated engine, you'll have a hell of a time finding street legal fuel. On the other hand, if it's due to the boost from a turbo, it's a little different. But then catastrophic engine failure is a possibility. Then there are diesel engines that have significantly higher compression ratios by design. I'm not familiar with any states that have laws limiting this. If there are, how is it enforced? I can't imagine a state trooper carrying around the equipment to measure this. Or having the competence to do it.
http://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/ford_mustang_gt_420_hp-vs-tesla_model_s_performance_model.html
Not quite as fast as a ~$30,000 car even. And you might be able to find cheaper cars yet that could match it.
300 miles at 130mph?
Let's see some citation for that.
At 80mph you would be doing well to get 15mpg. Even then you would need a 20 gallon tank. At 130 you would be getting much worse mileage.
No, there's no way a Citation could hit 132 MPH
Are you kidding? That's about takeoff speed.
In an electric car, close to 100% of the stored energy is used for locomotion (unless maybe you have the heater on).
And the headlights, and the radio, and the bluetooth adapter, and the fans for the climate control system, and the ECU, and the BCU, etc.
Except you have all of those things in a gas powered car too. The alternator puts extra load on the engine to power them as well as charge the battery in a gas powered car. However in a gas powered car, the weight of the gas is lower than the weight of the batteries. So, the energy density is higher. And as the fuel is used, the total weight of it decreases. In an electric car, the batteries weigh the same whether they are fully charged or completely drained. It's not so much about the percentage of stored energy that is used. It's how much energy is produced/exerted vs. how much the source weighs.
It's not impressive for the price (no electric car will be, because it's like paying most of the fuel costs up-front), but still a very good time overall.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
It probably makes much too much nitrogen oxide smog molecules to be legal.
i don't know about 130 but at 145-155 yeah it moves
Sorry, it's quadratic, not exponential. The point is the same though: the Vette will get terrible fuel economy at 132mph; if your calculation is anywhere near correct, 6.5mpg is pretty horrible, and for a 20-gallon tank yields only a measly 130 miles of range at 132mph, not too far off the other poster's contention of 100 miles.
That's true too. The only place where ICE cars have any advantage at all is when you're running the cabin heater: in an electric car, it uses a non-trivial amount of power to generate heat to heat the passenger cabin, whereas in an ICE car, the heat is free since you just divert the engine's waste heat to the cabin instead of the main radiator.
Forget it, he's rolling.
Where does the school board find them and why do they keep sending them to ME?
Pittsburgh ok but what's in the grand canyon?
The Colorado river?
I'm not speculating, but repeating what they've specifically said they will do.
416 horse power and it can only do 132 mph is nothing to brag about.
It's not a technical limitation. The Model S has a software governor that caps its top speed. Part of the "tuning" package Tesla plans to offer for German Model S customers is a raise on the cap to somewhere closer to the "gentlemen's agreement" of 155 MPH that most auto manufacturers limit their cars with.
There's also a hidden menu setting to turn off the governor. See the video at just before the 1:00 mark. I haven't read anything about people trying it, though.
If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
At about 150 aerodynamic forces like to lift the front wheels off the ground on cars that aren't specifically setup (spoilers and airdams) to go that fast.
Does that mean the car will flip over, or something?
I dispute your claim of 60A at cruise: where is all that power going? Most cars don't have enough accessories to use that much power, except for charging current needed for the battery. Obviously, an electric car does not need to recharge the batteries while driving, since that makes no sense, but it is a minor load for ICE cars.
Electric power steering does not use any power at cruise, only at low speeds when you're actually turning the wheels and need assistance. The P/S on my current old (ICE) car is currently broken as there's a leak in the system and I haven't gotten around to fixing it yet, and once you're past 10mph, you can't even tell there's a problem, and certainly not at highway speeds (maneuvering into parking places is a bit of a PITA though). It has zero effect on highway range on any decently-engineering EPS-equipped car.
Air conditioning is not a trivial load, except that on ICE cars, it's not much of an electrical load at all! The compressor is driven directly by a belt from the engine. The only electrical loads associated are for the compressor clutch (which engages the compressor instead of letting it free-spin), the condenser fan (a few amps maybe, easily the biggest load associated), and the ventilation fan (which is usually running with or without A/C anyway, and is totally independent). So except for those two fans, that's not really adding to your claimed 60A figure, which I think is total BS.
There are a lot of electrical accessories on cars these days, but they don't use much power, except in a peaky, transient way: EPS uses a lot of power, but only in short bursts when it's providing assist, at low speeds. ABS might use some power, but only when it's actually releasing brake pressure. The other big power users (fans, headlights, other lights) haven't changed in decades, except that now they're generally more efficient (LEDs vs. incandescents, Xenon headlights vs. halogens in higher-end cars, fans haven't changed at all). The real problem with electrical accessories in modern cars is that many of them are drawing a very small but non-zero amount of power when the car is turned off ("parasitic loads"). For a car driven daily, this isn't a problem, but if you let your car sit a couple of weeks in an airport parking lot for instance, or you have a spare car you only drive on rare occasion, this can mean your car's battery is unable to start the car when you want it. While driving, they're utterly insignificant, but a few milliamps of constant draw will have a significant effect on how long your car's battery lasts, when you're letting the car sit for days, weeks, or months.
The Audi TT killed a word champion rally driver on the autobahn when it did a backflip. Don't recall his name.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
That's the worst case. You push real bad first.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
What luxury sedan gets 130 miles per gallon?
HP (kW) is power. There are other factors which determine top speed. The 0-100 k/hr time of 5 seconds means it's probably more a limitation of the suspension and weight distribution than the gearbox or engine. Your POS 94 V6 mustang probably feels like it's going to explode at that speed if you go around a curve of more than a 1 degree.
It's not that they have "more" torque - it's that the torque is pretty much the same at any engine speed. IC engines - even "torquey" ones like diesels - have very little at low RPMs, then peak as you increase engine speed until reaching some point of diminishing returns as your intake limits you and torque drops off (but power continues to increase). It's the main reason that you need a transmission.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
80 km/h. Think metric.
The $60 swap fee will last until Teslas need battery pack replacement. After that it's just unsustainable.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Citation?
I believe it, but I bet it would be pretty close. Especially since the Tesla is way more aerodynamic than most saloons. At those speeds air resistance will be a major factor.
I don't have exact numbers for speeds and everything, but a A6 TDI can make it from Magdeburg to Dusseldorf with the accelerator to the firewall at every chance on 1 tank. That's 260 miles, and I'm pretty sure the tank was not empty by Dusseldorf. Top speed was a traffic limited 164 MPH. I think our average MPG was somewhere in the teens. I don't see a Tesla being able to come close to that, but it's also not what the Tesla was designed for and almost exactly what an A6 TDI is designed for.
Your answers are insightful, yet I will correct you on the fans.
The internal HVAC fan can pull 30 Amps (check out the fuse... that's normal, not out of the ordinary).
30A * 12v = 360 watts
Now, the "condenser fan" ... usually cars don't have specific fans for the condenser (usually).
If they're electric fan, they have one (or two) fans behind the radiator.
When the a/c engages, they turn on the fans regardless if the engine temperature needs it or not.
And those motherfuckers will pull a bitch of power.
One fan that comes to mind because of its popularity in engine conversions is the Ford Taurus electric fan.
On high-speed, it will pull 35amps.
35A * 12v = 420watts
Quadratic, roughly, but don't forget about the linear and constant terms. At low speeds, much of the drag is caused by rolling resistance and internal friction (in ICE cars).
Sorry, no: a fuse rating is not an indication of how much power something pulls, except in a relative way. A fuse has to be significantly higher than the peak current a load may draw (if you operate too close to a fuse's rating, it'll blow early even without the limit being exceeded, just due to age). And fan motors draw more current at start-up than during continuous operation. So, I'm guessing, a typical fan on a 30A fuse probably uses only about 10A continuous. That's only 120W.
As for condenser fans, this depends on the car. My old Integra has a wide radiator with dual fans; the larger fan is the main engine fan, and the slightly-smaller fan (more in terms of motor size than physical size, so it probably has a lower airflow rate) right next to it is for the A/C condenser (the condenser sits right in front of the main radiator, and is almost the same size, just a lot thinner). On this car, whenever the A/C is turned on, the condenser fan is turned on too, I believe without any thermostatic switching (and without affecting the main fan). Admittedly, it's an older car now, so other (and newer) cars probably do things a little differently and more efficiently. But as for "a bitch of power", at least on this car, the A/C fan is the smaller of the two, meaning they probably don't think the A/C condenser needs as much airflow as the main radiator when it's getting too hot and has to turn on its fan.
And for your 35A Taurus fan, that sounds ridiculously large, and even if it really does use that much power, certainly won't work on a 30A fuse for obvious reasons. I'm guessing you'd need a 50A fuse at a minimum for that, maybe 100A (I don't think there's any sizes between 50A and 100A). You sure 35A isn't just a peak figure? Fans will probably use the most current at start-up.
Citation?
I believe it, but I bet it would be pretty close. Especially since the Tesla is way more aerodynamic than most saloons. At those speeds air resistance will be a major factor.
Oh no you dont.
Compare like to like.
There are plenty of sports sedans/saloons out there. The Nissan Skyline 350 GT whilst being a 6.8 second car can manage 155 MPH with a 3.7L V6 and get 2-3 hours out of it's tank. Now the Skyline 350GT is an average car where as the Telsa is selling for Porsche 911 Carrera money, or a Nissan GT-R both of which will utterly smoke a Tesla (even in aerodynamics, they are designed to be supercars). Realistically a Subaru Impreza WRX STI or Mitsubishi Lancer EVO will outperform the Model S and outrun it at 130 MPH and they costs under US$40,000 for the top model. The only thing that separates the Model S from its petrol powered contemporaries is that it isn't petrol powered.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
OK, so parroting speculation. Whatever.
Still vaporware.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
not really, no. In that amount of time, a lot of cars can do 0-100. New hybrid mclaren will do 0-60 in 2.8, but can't remember what it's 0-100 is, but it does a standing quarter mile in 10.2 seconds at 145mph
So you're saying it's not impressive because it's not as quick as the top-tier, 7-digit-price hypercars?
Tough crowd...
Not sure what the GP is saying but I'll say it's not impressive for it's price bracket. Around US$100,000 will get you a Tesla Model S... Or a Nissan GT-R or a Porsche 911 Carrera. $100K is entry level supercar money. It wont buy you a McLaren, but it will buy you a GT-R and those things are not slouches in any way shape or form.
The Model S isn't really a supercar. Cars half it's price will match it in performance, I'm not saying it's a bad car but I am saying it isn't a performance vehicle in it's price bracket. What separates it from a 911 or GT-R is that it isn't petrol powered.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
Grain of salt.
I meant JATO.
As in this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ORXv_1XlDY
There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
It's at least plausible. With the old Audi 4000 of my father, I got 400 miles out of 10 gallons, but I was never driving faster than 60 mph on that trip.
Which means at 130mph you would not even get half that.
and a tank of over 20l is not uncommon with large cars.
They also use 150kg of fuel (~200L or ~53 gallons) so you're looking at around 4mpg over the full race.
Ok, I'm calling bullshit on that one. At those speeds, how can you tell if it's a real chick or a guy in drag?
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
http://www.auto123.com/en/news/toyota-prius-sets-land-speed-record-for-hybrid-vehicles?artid=33860&pg=3
I guess its time to trade in my Prius for a car costing twice as much, but can't go as far? But just think about how cool I'll be not getting there!
Actually, I do want one. Disregard all my snide cynicism above. I'm sure its one nice vehicle, but I had to point out the minor speed difference. I can certainly attest to how fast the Prius can go, just don't ask me how I know. ;)
My A4 does 9 liter diesel per 100km while cruising at 210 km/hr (and when I'm the only person in the car). It does 4.6 l/100km normally at 100kmph, 62mph. Which roughly translates to 21 mpg at 130mph. With a full tank that means I can get up to 600 km, over 350 miles, at this speed.
In July of 2001 a friend of mine and I rented a Porsche Boxster with a tiptronic gearbox (which is slower than the manual version, but less easily damaged) and took it for a three-day spin on the German autobahn network. Fantastic! I remember getting stuck behind other cars at 170 km/h (106 mph), then shifting down to 4th gear to accelerate again after the car ahead of us got out of the way. The acceleration would only begin to slow above about 230 km/h (142 mph). Our top speed was 256 km/h (159 mph), achieved on a long downhill section on the way to Frankfurt from the south (probably with a tailwind as well). So, that's just to put things in perspective.
For a few years after that I dreamed of owning that car, with its mid-mounted engine that makes it sound like you're being tailgated by a truck, only with some additional sounds of whirring gears. It was like music to me. I was a more aggressive driver in those days, but that car had a calming effect on me; like I didn't have to prove myself to anyone.
Yet, I no longer dream of owning a car with an internal combustion engine. The next road vehicle I buy is going to be electric. Part of my change of heart on this subject has to do with the technical appeal. No more complicated internal combustion engines, none of the heat, the sound or the smell, no matter how glorious they once seemed to me. None of the oil and associated dirt either. Just the simplicity of a battery and a compact, yet powerful electric motor that is almost silent, yet gives surprising acceleration and speed.
Moreover, there is the environmental aspect. My petrol-head friends keep reminding me that the necessary electricity mostly comes from coal-fired power plants, making each mile traveled a bit dirtier than I would hope. True, but at least I would not be to blame for that, since I would be able to run it on 100% clean, renewable energy as soon as I had the choice.
Also appealing is the fact that I would never have to visit any more gasoline stations. All I'd have to do is plug it into a wall socket in the garage when I get home. Okay, it would be more of a drag if I didn't have a garage (not many folks around here do), but still. Luckily this country is so small that on a single charge I would be able to drive to work and back using almost any electric vehicle available on the market today.
Finally, there is the fact that I live in the Netherlands, which has higher gasoline prices than anywhere else in the world: over 60% of it is tax and the last time I paid $8.73 per gallon. Oh, how I despise being such a cash cow. If I could afford one I would certainly buy a Tesla Model S, but for now I look forward to receiving an even more frugal (and more agile) Lit C-1.
so handling at high speed is why this 416 monster can get passed by a upper end 4 cylinder in the long run?
I had a couple old eclipses that could get around this speed and feel like you were traveling at 45mph, both were less than 200hp, it sounds more like Tesla has some serious gear ratio problems, or they are bullshitting the HP number with ...I dunno inrush power consumption
eh, the speed of a vehicle at a given horsepower is going to depend on drive train gear ratios, air resistance, hydraulic losses (if such in drivetrain and not lockup version) and friction losses to a first approximation.
It goes fast enough, so what?
Is it practical? Is it more environmentally friendly than standard cars?
If not, then who cares?
>Priuses (Prii?)
'Priuses' is the only plural that makes sense. 'Prius' *is* a Latin word from the start - Wikipedia says that its correct plural form is 'priora', with caveats. Latin is a tricky language and any guess is likely to be unluckly. Stick to English plurals when in doubt, and see http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2139/what-is-the-plural-of-penis for an entertaining and insightful read on the topic.
While I'm at it: 'penii' is wrong, and 'virii' is completely, utterly wrong. Viruses and penises are great, see the article for the actual Latin plural of penis (there is no such thing for 'virus').
Pittsburgh ok but what's in the grand canyon?
Maybe you're just trolling but as someone who spent 23 days rowing a raft 270 miles through the bottom of the Grand Canyon I can say what is in the Grand Canyon is magic. My trip was over 19 months ago and I still can't think about it without "being" there.
Coming down from Mt. Bachelor in a 1973 Volkswagen Westfalia Camper Van I hit over 80 mph. Got the speeding ticket to prove it.
It can go faster than 132mph, but the Bugatti Veyron will empty its tank in 12 minutes at top speed.. Which is a good thing as the tires only last 15 minutes at top speed.
Anarchists never rule
It can go faster than 132mph, but the Bugatti Veyron will empty its tank in 12 minutes at top speed.. Which is a good thing as the tires only last 15 minutes at top speed.
Anarchists never rule
Given that the slow lane = 130-160km/h, middle lane is 160-200km/h and the left lane(s) are 200km/h+
Oh and yes, this can be done fairly safely. The germans and other europeans do it every day. Of course if you're driving some beat up old piece of shit, you shouldnt be in the fast lane, but if you're in a big beemer or merc it is no sweat.
I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
Flat out my 1.8l Elantra does 30-40l to 100km, which translates to a range of around 110-200km - roughly comparable. Also, they lied about the top speed in the advertising blurb. More precise numbers are unavailable, since under those conditions I don't trust the l/100km measurement.
I have determined that my sig is indeterminate.
My M5 can easily go over 250 miles at 132mph also i recharge it in under 10 mins.
That telsa cant touch my top speed and cannot touch the refuel/recharge time.
You can change the battery on the Tesla in 90 seconds.
No left turn unstoned.
It would be awesome to get some actual measurements... yet I can't tell you if the Taurus fan does pull 35A continuously.
As an aside... I know there's an American company that makes these nifty relays for automotive use: they ramp up the fans to full power, instead of on/off.
Good discussion.
Have a good one!
Let's see some evidence for that.
I find that pretty unlikely. To be clear, it must go 300+ miles on one tank when traveling at 130mph the entire time, save for the flat out sprint up to 130 at the start.
I never said it was difficult to do so. I said it was difficult to do so and get good gas mileage. Most cars that size do not get 15mpg at 80mph. Your wagon sounds a good but smaller.
Actually many ICE cars cannot support their full load for much more than sprints. I have had several cars in which to do so you had to crank the heat to max, to cool the engine.
No, there's no way a Citation could hit 132 MPH
The ones from Cessna can.
I'll see your Constitution and raise you a Queen.
What on earth is infamous about it?
Most of us wish our highway system was as good.
I'll see your Constitution and raise you a Queen.
No, not on a gas/diesel car, the fan is the largest load. We're talking about electric power consumed here, and how much of a load the A/C puts on the alternator. On gas/diesel cars, the A/C compressor (the largest energy consumer in the system) runs from a belt connected to the engine, so it has almost no effect on the electrical system (except for the electric compressor clutch which engages it). On electric cars, this is different since the A/C compressor would need to be powered by its own electric motor.
it is super duper, if you have a front tire failure.
Your vehicle has an OBD-II diagnostic connector.
You just plug in a 'ScanGauge' or similar device.
I see a real drop off in instantaneous MPG from 70 and up.
Turns out 68 is the sweet spot for my car, about the same point as my motorcycle.
No brain, no pain.
About 504 miles in my 2014 stingray (18.4 gallons @28mpg).
None of those use any siginficant amount of power, except for the caution lights which probably would cause your electric car to use more power simply because they screw up the aerodynamics so much. Using the heat or A/C will have a far greater effect on your range.
Buy a plugin prius and add one of the aftermarket uber-battery packs.
Imperial unit zealots?
Non-sense! Vahnzin.
Furlongs/fortnight or GTF out.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
except that's just not how it works. I swap kegs in my kegorator all the time. I paid the initial deposit and haven't been charged since, except for the contents of the new kegs.
Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
Fortunately a for-profit company can only do what the market will bear. Only the government can force you to buy something you don't want.
Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
Please learn how to spell LOSER......and the word answers..
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
except that's just not how it works. I swap kegs in my kegorator all the time. I paid the initial deposit and haven't been charged since, except for the contents of the new kegs.
batteries are not like kegs, dude. For starters, you can refill a keg indefinitely as long as you don't damage the casing too much; batteries, not so much.
Think more like what happens when you go to an auto parts store to swap out your car's lead-acid battery with a new one: they charge you $80 for a new battery, but give you $5 for your old one if you trade it in (called a 'core charge'). Why only $5? Because you've already burned up most-if-not-all the recharge cycles (which is why you're replacing it), and thus the old one is basically scrap at this point.
Independently owned swap stations will inevitably engage in the same practice, to offset expenses when replacing out-of-recharge-cycle batteries, rare as that occasion might be. CYA is good business sense.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
Fortunately a for-profit company can only do what the market will bear. Only the government can force you to buy something you don't want.
Who do you think "convinces" the government to mandate such things? The for-profit businesses that stand to gain from the mandate.
Kinda like how the PPACA legislation was pretty much written by insurance companies.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
"CYA is good business sense."
Unless it drives away your customers. What good is gouging people High prices on swapping out their good, but low battery when they could either charge it elsewhere or go to a different shop and swap it for a fair market price.
Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.