Ask Slashdot: How Would You Secure Your Parents' PC?

New submitter StirlingArcher writes "I've always built/maintained my parents' PC's, but as Mum has got older her PC seems to develop problems more readily. I would love to switch her to Linux, but she struggles with change and wants to stay with Vista and MS Office. I've done the usual remove Admin rights, use a credible Internet Security package. Is there anything more dramatic that I could do, without changing the way she uses her PC or enforcing a new OS on her again? One idea was to use a Linux OS and then run Vista in a VM, which auto-boots and creates a backup image every so often. Thanks for any help!"

Comments

Keep my parents away from it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Might wanna take out the CPU as well, just in case.

Re:Keep my parents away from it.

[crackspackle]

Might wanna take out the CPU as well, just in case.

One might assume some 35 years after the advent of PC revolution, there are more than a few grey hairs running around like me with infinitely more knowledge on how to secure a computer than some smart mouth tweener. Having spent years securing their computers, I would not trust any child of mine to do a better job than I would and it's time to put the tired meme that kids know tech better than their parents to bed where it belongs.

Re:Keep my parents away from it.

[AK Marc]

Seconded, but with a twist. If you take the CPU out of a computer, what are you left with? Yes, my parents had tablets. It's like a computer, but better. At least for old people who can't use a computer but want to use some computer-like applications.

Re:Keep my parents away from it.

[Albanach]

Something like Faronics Deep Freeze might be useful, restoring the computer to a clean slate after each reboot. You still want your usual anti-virus and firewall to protect the machine when it's running, but at least your parents would know that if things break a restart should generally fix everything.

Leave My Documents and the browser profile unfrozen and set up a regular backup of files written there, taking precautions to make sure the backup isn't susceptible to encryption by ransomware.

Re:Keep my parents away from it.

[Runaway1956]

Well, actually, if I were to accidentally bump my head or something, and suddenly found myself incapable of administering a computer, I do have one son whom I could trust. The other two are computer nitwits. Not computer illiterates, but nitwits. They KNOW that certain things are dangerous, but they just don't care. The smart mouth tweeners you mention, to be precise.

Re:Keep my parents away from it.

[Anonymous Coward]

or use puppy linux with pfix=ram

Re:Keep my parents away from it.

[cascadingstylesheet]

One might assume some 35 years after the advent of PC revolution, there are more than a few grey hairs running around like me with infinitely more knowledge on how to secure a computer than some smart mouth tweener. Having spent years securing their computers, I would not trust any child of mine to do a better job than I would and it's time to put the tired meme that kids know tech better than their parents to bed where it belongs.

Yep. Just like kids with cars are (long since) no longer all shade tree mechanics, kids who like playing with tech are not all techies. Not by a LONG shot.

Re:Keep my parents away from it.

[gnasher719]

Seconded, but with a twist. If you take the CPU out of a computer, what are you left with? Yes, my parents had tablets. It's like a computer, but better. At least for old people who can't use a computer but want to use some computer-like applications.

Being in the opposite situation (usually the one trying desperately to keep the grandchildrens' computers safe), the iPad is a beautiful invention.

Re:Keep my parents away from it.

[BringsApples]

Hell, can I adopt you as a parent then? My situation with my dad is that he clicks on anything to get to porn, and thinks that every time he does it, he's doing it in a different way. He represents the person that the virus writers hope for.

If there are people out there that are 65+ and can use a PC 'like a boss', then my hat's off to them.

Re:Keep my parents away from it.

[gmhowell]

Seconded, but with a twist. If you take the CPU out of a computer, what are you left with? Yes, my parents had tablets. It's like a computer, but better. At least for old people who can't use a computer but want to use some computer-like applications.

This. The answer in my case was "Dad, here's your iPad". Not only are there no support issues beyond "should I install this iOS update", he uses it far more than any PC he's ever had.

Re:Keep my parents away from it.

[Anonymous Coward]

There are a few. My father, who is 77 now, is one of them. Knows multiple programming languages and is a whiz at security. I just wish his arthritis wasn't so bad, I can tell he wishes he could still physically upgrade his computer himself. I do that now, but he still does the research for his own parts and orders them. Hell, I've been in the field for 22 years now and owe that to him. He gave me my first 'computer' in '81 when i was five.

So yes, 'like a boss.' Now I'm just rambling.

I hope when I'm 77 they'll have 'cured' arthritis, 'cause I don't plan on losing touch with tech.

Cheers to slashdot.

Re:Keep my parents away from it.

[kwrzesien]

What's the point? MS Update will kill it eventually anyway. Just had my dad's PC nuked by the December 10th patch updates, Windows won't boot so I can't even Remote Desktop to fix it.

Re:Keep my parents away from it.

[pr0fessor]

My mother is 65+, retired, and used a computer at work everyday from the 80s until she retired {from the DMV} a couple years ago. She may not know how to repair the hardware but does fine keeping her PC/Software/AV up to date, staying off of questionable sites, not opening unexpected unknown attachments in her email, setting up a new printer, new wireless router, not installing random adware/malware garbage.

Re:Keep my parents away from it.

[dwater]

> to bed where it belongs.

and with no supper, either, I suppose.

Re: Keep my parents away from it.

[gzuckier]

Ahh tablets aren't so new. Moses had them thousands of years ago.

Re: Keep my parents away from it.

[AK Marc]

Yeah, but the "chisel" touch interface sucked.

Re:Keep my parents away from it.

[vandamme]

There is hope for my grandkids; I put Bodhi Linux on an old XP laptop, along with GCompris, TuxPaint and such, and they love it. I am trying to get their school to convert to Linux, but I think you can guess the outcome of that (sigh).

MS Security Essentials

[csumpi]

All you need. Click here.

Re:MS Security Essentials

[jratcliffe]

Agreed. It really works very well, and it has minimal performance impact (certainly compared to AVG, and definitely vs dogs like Norton or McAfee).

Re:MS Security Essentials

[smash]

Not as good as it used to be, we run Forefront which uses the same definitions and have had a number of things get through it as of late.

Re:MS Security Essentials

[Meniconi,Nando]

As AV, MS offer seems to score pretty badly

Re:MS Security Essentials

[Brad1138]

Is it any better than Avast(free)? I have been using Avast for years and it seems to work quite well. Most if not all of the online reviews pick Avast over MSSE.

Re:MS Security Essentials

[Anonymous Coward]

Not as good as it used to be, we run Forefront which uses the same definitions and have had a number of things get through it as of late.

MSE used to be good, but MS seems to have really slipped up last couple of years. They have fallen to the bottom of all the tests, that they use to be in the top of, and even if you don't believe in tests, more and more real-world reports of things slipping through, like poster above here. It has gotten so bad that MS themselves now publicly recommend that their customers use additional 3rd party AV. That is pretty damning.

Re: MS Security Essentials

[Dokterdok]

I don't agree. My parents PC got repeatedly infected by spyware/malware with MS Security Essentials over the last few years. I switched them back to avast, we'll see.

Re:MS Security Essentials

[Shoten]

Not as good as it used to be, we run Forefront which uses the same definitions and have had a number of things get through it as of late.

MSE used to be good, but MS seems to have really slipped up last couple of years. They have fallen to the bottom of all the tests, that they use to be in the top of, and even if you don't believe in tests, more and more real-world reports of things slipping through, like poster above here. It has gotten so bad that MS themselves now publicly recommend that their customers use additional 3rd party AV. That is pretty damning.

The test you refer to (not tests) is a notoriously vendor-driven one, which really has no credence with the larger AV community. And there's a bit of misinterpretation; MSE is designed to be compatible with another AV solution, so that the two can coexist. This is made possible by the fact that MSE integrates with Windows as only a Microsoft product could. MS didn't say "don't use our solution all by itself, the MSE r h4x0red!"

Re:MS Security Essentials

[EuclideanSilence]

My parents computers don't have missile launch codes on them, they don't need to be secure. They need to be recoverable.

1) Any photos, bookmarks, etc that you want to keep: have a copy of it on a backup DVD
2) Be able to format and reinstall

Anything else is just extra.

Re:MS Security Essentials

[gaspyy]

For a while, MSSE was good, then it took a steep dive to the point it's not even tested by the labs anymore. Quite sad really.

Personally I went back to Bitdefender.

Re:MS Security Essentials

[Ksevio]

It's better in that it stays out of the way a bit more - it updates with Windows Update and doesn't require registration.

Re:MS Security Essentials

[CastrTroy]

This is so true. Even as somebody who knows how to keep his computer clean of viruses and malware, I still follow these recommendations. Keep the important data backed up, and format the machine every 6-12 months. Keeps things running smoothly.

That or just get them an iPad or Surface 2, and be done with it. They can probably get all their stuff done on either of these devices. Surface 2 even has MS Office, and they've really up their game on the hardware this time around. Found that most reviews found almost nothing negative to say about the Surface except for the fact that there's fewer apps. But the Windows market is growing quickly.

Re:MS Security Essentials

[Runaway1956]

Your parent's PC(s) don't hold any credit card numbers, or personal information that might embarrass them? Not even a baby picture of a (gasp) nude child which might mark them as (GASP) pedophiles?

Sorry, but your assertion is terribly naive.

Re:MS Security Essentials

[dk20]

I use to use MS Security essentials but dumped it in favour of Avast. Does a better job and even warns about some bad websites. There are online reporting tools which is good when you have more then one PC to deal with, even more so if they are not in the same location.
Oddly enough my kids (non-admin accounts) continue to get the odd virus.

I have since converted the kids to Linux (One runs Mint the other two use Ubuntu). Seems to have went fairly smoothly.

Re:MS Security Essentials

[DJRumpy]

I would suggest this as well. If she's comfortable with Windows, then make it as safe as possible. Security Essentials has far less risk of throwing a key Windows file into quarantine and hosing the install. It's also far better as far as performance. Ensure she knows how to spot when it has not updated in a while (it happens). Ensure it updates when the PC is likely to be on.

From there, you need to use a few plugins that will help keep your mother safer online. WOT is an excellent, and low impact plugin that will warn her about known dangerous sites. AdBlock is a must if she's prone to clicking on things she shouldn't.

If you can swing it, get an SSD, and kill scheduled tasks like defrag, which would no longer be necessary.
DO schedule checks for updates when she is most likely to be on. Ensure you train her to spot the prompt that updates are needed, and how to install them.
If she can't deal with the update process, then you should setup some time each week to remote into the PC to do them, and to handle basic maintenance

For remote fixes, I'd suggest TeamViewer, set to auto-run as a service., with an Admin password setup for yourself.

I used all of the above steps with my Dad who lives about 2 hours away with decent results for quite a few years until the old XP hardware failed. I should note that I eventually moved him to a Mac mini when his old hardware failed, and when I no longer wanted to pay a hundred bucks for Windows. My dad likes playing games for the most part, and the ecosystem on a Mac made sense for him (app store), while keeping him largely out of trouble.

Re:MS Security Essentials

[Anonymous Coward]

Not as good as it used to be, we run Forefront which uses the same definitions and have had a number of things get through it as of late.

MSE used to be good, but MS seems to have really slipped up last couple of years. They have fallen to the bottom of all the tests, that they use to be in the top of, and even if you don't believe in tests, more and more real-world reports of things slipping through, like poster above here. It has gotten so bad that MS themselves now publicly recommend that their customers use additional 3rd party AV. That is pretty damning.

The test you refer to (not tests) is a notoriously vendor-driven one, which really has no credence with the larger AV community. And there's a bit of misinterpretation; MSE is designed to be compatible with another AV solution, so that the two can coexist. This is made possible by the fact that MSE integrates with Windows as only a Microsoft product could. MS didn't say "don't use our solution all by itself, the MSE r h4x0red!"

Actually, I refer to tests. I guess you are probably referring to the beating they got in AV-Test, since MS publicly complained about that. But here is another one (look at bottom of graph page 9 or summary of results page 13 - zero stars to MSE). And here is another one, from the test lab used by PC Pro and others (see results page 7 and 8, not good).

Where did you get the notion that MSE is designed to co-exist with another AV-solution? Microsoft strongly recommends against this, it is the first line in their FAQ. If you have third party AV running when you install MSE it recommends to disable it. Which in almost all cases today would be a downgrade of your protection.

Re:MS Security Essentials

[i.r.id10t]

Or even a high speed connection that could be used as part of a botnet?

Even if all you have installed is a browser, and you have no bookmarks or other personal data, you should keep your box secure to help prevent botnets, spambots, etc.

Re:MS Security Essentials

[Anonymous Coward]

All you need. Click here.

He already said "I've done the usual [....] use a credible Internet Security package." At that point, the major danger is going to come from "zero days" and Internet Explorer browser attacks which will entirely bypass any form of AntiVirus etc. Changing which particular "credible Internet Security package" is used is going to make a very marginal difference. In fact the main OS difference will be in turning off useless services.

To make a step change up in security you want to talk about things like OS diversity; driving backups from the admin account and offsite backups. You may also want to consider switching her to cloud services of some kinds. Wait you say, he already said "I would love to switch her to Linux, but she struggles with change and wants to stay with Vista and MS Office." ... well sure; that's true. But it's a matter of interface. You can keep the Windows as the front end for now; probably for as long as she continues to be a desktop user; but use a different OS such as Linux for storing and copying her data.

When you set this up, consider very carefully the trust between systems. Obviously you don't want your Linux system to trust the Windows system (do the management from your own Linux system as well) but the opposite is true too. Due to Linux's design which encourages applications not to need aministrator access there is less malware for linux, but there are plenty of attackers and bad passwords can compromise your system. Ideally you want to have no dependence in either direction. Just have the administrator account on your Windows system backup files automatically to the Linux system. Have the Linux system automatically archive those backups so that the Windows system can't delete them and you will have a major recoverability improvement.

If you know them well you might want to consider using something like OpenBSD which may be easier to configure securely. Don't bother if you don't know them.

Offsite/Offline backups can be done by buying three huge slow disks which get copies off the NAS swap the last updated one for the one in the NAS each time you visit. If she has fast internet, just encrypt (GPG will do fine) and upload to a cloud service. Download a copy of those to your own offline backup for when your cloud provider makes a mess.

You haven't said what you mean by "security"; so far I've assumed the normal stuff; integrity, recoverability etc. If you also want to consider privacy you will want to think very carefully about gradually moving her to more private solutions. Microsoft has very much the same advertising and spying capabilities as Google but without the level of sophisticated systems Google uses to keep partners and employees away from the data. Just because you keep Office and Windows available to her, doesn't mean she can't start to diversify:

• Install LibreOffice but only to handle Open Document formats; this will avoid data corruption issues with Excel which have been a problem for a long time
• Move her to a more modern/secure browser such as Chromium or Opera
• Encourage her to use a different email system; yahoo; gmail; anything which will later make migration easier.
• Occasionally send her useful information in other formats
• Teach her to always convert and save MS Office documents as PDF for mailing and archive - show her that different versions of Office are not actually compatible with each other so sending office formats is never a good idea.

Long term, being dependent fully on Microsoft is something you can't be sure about. They may stay as they were; however the use of Active Tiles in their new operating systems really suggests a move to a much more advertising and

Re: MS Security Essentials

[Applehu Akbar]

MSE does well except on detecting spyware. Use Malwarebytes for that.

Re:MS Security Essentials

[denmarkw00t]

1) Any photos, bookmarks, etc that you want to keep: have a copy of it on a backup DVD

LOL I'm sorry but I'm really laughing out loud over here. Backup to DVD? I've written (and rewritten) the instructions to copy a CD for my mom many many times over the last several years. I don't know what it is about "Open - Click Copy CD - Wait" that makes things difficult...asking her, or my dad, to burn backup DVDs is just asking for it.

Re:MS Security Essentials

[Kvasio]

I have a customer with registered avast on all PCs. It comes with bundled "software updater" that deals internally with SOME software (eg. adobe flash or some upgrades of firefox) without running the official installer. Comes quite easy to cope with, so perhaps parents could do some updates.
Otherwise, there is remote admin module as well.

Re:MS Security Essentials

[EuclideanSilence]

Having an insecure computer can make it safer to have something like illegal-exceptions-to-the-first-amendment stored on your computer. If your computer is completely secured, you can't deny that you put it there.

More importantly, the personal information of the general public is not private. The reason you have a four digit pin number is because it's less trouble for the bank than you having an actual password: it's less trouble for them to refund your money than it is for them to constantly support "I forgot my password" calls. Your credit card number is even more insecure. There are actually types of accounts for people who feel like paying for security, and if you aren't paying for one, then you don't have one. If you can be persuaded otherwise, then naevite' is indeed what we should be discussing.

Re:MS Security Essentials

[EuclideanSilence]

The only thing that keeps the entire internet collapsing into a zombie frenzy of bots is private IP addresses. The inability to connect to the majority of hidden computers, and the fact that they can't operate (independently) as a server limiting their usefulness prevents almost all of the attacks that would otherwise occur and occur successfully. The state of the art of software development is not ready for ma and pa to have public computers, no matter how up to date your software is or how you try to virus protect it (haha virus protection what a joke). The fact that everyone is scared to death of installing any program made by anyone other than well-known-giant-corporation accounts for most of the of the catastrophe that is modern software.

So to answer to the forum topic, use a router and don't install software if you didn't look the developer in the eyes when you bought it.

Re:MS Security Essentials

[Anonymous Coward]

Please think of your mother and buy her a Chromebook. These notebook computers make it practically impossible for her computer to ever get affected by a virus or other malware.

Re:MS Security Essentials

[Anonymous Coward]

Quick, get a Windows RT device. You'd get a platform they are used to, without a chance of it gaining enough market share worth of writing malware for.

Re:MS Security Essentials

[Tom]

1) Any photos, bookmarks, etc that you want to keep: have a copy of it on a backup DVD

Doesn't work, never has and never will.

Unless backup is automatic in the background with no user intervention required, regular people will not do backups, period.

Apple's Time Machine is the biggest leap forward for home-user backup in... well, basically ever. Not because it's a technical marvel (it isn't), but because it's so simple and out-of-the-box that regular users actually use it.

Re:MS Security Essentials

[Gaygirlie]

My parents computers don't have missile launch codes on them, they don't need to be secure. They need to be recoverable.

Wow, that's naive! Their online-credentials, details that one could use to do identity theft, their credit card numbers and banking details -- you're completely dismissing all that as irrelevant? And how are you going to "recover" the damage if someone does get their credit card details, for example, and empties the account? Your backups won't do shit in such a situation, and neither does reinstalling the system!

Re:MS Security Essentials

[Anonymous Coward]

and format the machine every 6-12 months. Keeps things running smoothly.

Is that the sad state of windows these days? Format twice a year to keep it running smoothly? I have a machine running smoothly since 2005 - the only formatting being change of worn-out disks. Never ever reinstalled, only a monthly upgrade of software. But then, Linux is in a different league . . .

Re:MS Security Essentials

[fast turtle]

I'd say that Noscript is far more important then ABP as it'll block the most common vector by itself if you configure it correcly. The first thing is to identify those sites such as YouTube, their bank, and what not where scripts are absolutely mandantory and block everything else by default - Deny All principle. Another element is to use a hosts file and block damn near everything that's not needed. Check out the freebie that's online and edit as needed (I use the full file while allowing Google as needed) as the 2nd line of defense. The nice thing about a comprehensive host file is you can block advertisers and save their bandwidth for things like all those Lolcat vids on Youtube. They'll also thank you as it'll look as though their ISP finally got their act together and gave em some speed because they wont be waiting for that god damn ad-server to send em the fucking ad.

Re:MS Security Essentials

[DJRumpy]

NoScript causes to much impact. I actually tried that route early on with my dad, who is very non-techie. It caused all sorts of headaches by breaking various websites. The idea being that they can still browse relatively freely, use a scanner that doesn't bring the system to it's knees, or destroy the OS with bad AV quarantine, etc.

The above method is what I ended up with after a decade of various tech as it evolved. Not bullet proof, but keeps the re-installs down to one every 4-5 years.

Re:MS Security Essentials

[fast turtle]

Windows Shadow Copies - predates Time Machine and is available in XP. It's called Restore Previous Versions and is part of System Restore.

Re:MS Security Essentials

[Brad1138]

Avast only kind of requires registration. I always put in bogus name and email (dsda@sa.sds or something) and that's all that's needed.

Re:MS Security Essentials

[gnasher719]

Windows Shadow Copies - predates Time Machine and is available in XP. It's called Restore Previous Versions and is part of System Restore.

What percentage of Windows user uses it? That's the real question, not who was there first or what solution is technically better, but what percentage of computer users own it? And Time Machine wins hands down.

Re:MS Security Essentials

[achbed]

and format the machine every 6-12 months. Keeps things running smoothly.

Is that the sad state of windows these days? Format twice a year to keep it running smoothly? I have a machine running smoothly since 2005 - the only formatting being change of worn-out disks. Never ever reinstalled, only a monthly upgrade of software. But then, Linux is in a different league . . .

... And I'll bet you're not allowing anyone to click on spam/scam ads, or install that latest handy coupon program. For these types of users, yeah, a fresh install every few months is a good thing.

Re:MS Security Essentials

[asavage]

Firefox has an account sync feature so if that is setup you can have bookmarks, history, passwords, add-ons, etc. all backed up automatically.

Re:MS Security Essentials

[CastrTroy]

Where did I say I ran Windows? Regardless of the operating system used, the point is that I end up installing stuff I only use once, or just accumulate files I no longer need(downloaded files and such), log files grow. All this adds up.It's often easier to just start from scratch. It's amazing how much stuff sits on your drive that you never use at all.

Re:MS Security Essentials

[Tom]

First, what the other comment said.

Second, no it's not the same thing. The beauty of Time Machine is the Time Capsule - you can back up to a different device seamlessly and without install or configuration (except for selecting the backup target once).

Backup on the same machine protects against drive failures, but not against, say, a virus wiping your drives.

Re:MS Security Essentials

[riis138]

I have had great luck with Avast! It runs so quietly in the background you almost forget its there. I have also had it block attack sites and hijack attempts. All in all its a great suite that offers superior protection for free. The paid service is even more robust and comprehensive.

No problem

[russotto]

Cut the network cable, remove the power cord, and call it a day.

Re:No problem

[Anonymous Coward]

Cut the network cable, remove the power cord, and call it a day.

I use a wireless network, you insensitive clod!

If it is simple use

[wbr1]

Like email, browsing, and perhaps some photos and videos, get a tablet. I hate to add to the PC market shrinking (it is my main bread and butter), but a tab is typically simpler, and more than enough for many use cases.
Additionally, you can root and do a nandroid backup on initial setup as a quick imaging routine in case of problems.
Disclaimer, I wrote this on the commode with a nexus 7.

Re:If it is simple use

[master_kaos]

This is definitely a viable option. My mother uses her tablet almost exclusively. She will occasionally use her computer for an occasional task (such as writing a complex document, or managing photos from her digital camera) but other then that she only uses her tablet.

Another option is Windows 8 which I have done for my grandmother. While I cannot stand the Winodws 8 interface it can actually make sense for certain people. My grandmother does 2 things, write documents and checks emails. So I have 3 tiles on the interface - Mail app, Open Office App, and Shut Down Computer icon. Also disable admin rights. When I did switch her to Windows 8 I suppose I could have switched her to linux instead, but didn't want to bother as I am sure it would have been a lot more support calls on my end.

Re:If it is simple use

[Meniconi,Nando]

Doing the same for my parents, too. Covers web surfing, skype and youtube videos, which is all of their needs. Does not need to be a tablet, either. There are a couple of 21+" android all-in-one out there.

Re:If it is simple use

[wonkey_monkey]

This is definitely a viable option.

That's for the guy who asked the question in the first place to decide, and he specified:

without changing the way she uses her PC or enforcing a new OS on her again

So I'd say it's not.

Re:If it is simple use

[SydShamino]

Sometimes the correct answer to a question is one the asker doesn't want to hear.

This is the correct answer. Guy should give his mom a tablet for Christmas, for "when you'd rather sit on the sofa than at the computer desk". Six months later, either he'll find it's never used (which means he's just out some money) or that she uses it exclusively (which means the problem is solved, as she's now adapted to another OS - acceptable because it's "on a tablet" instead of another PC OS).

Tablets are what parents should have been getting in 2000-2005 instead of all the PCs that were used instead, if only they had existed in non-suck forms.

Re:If it is simple use

[mspohr]

Second the tablet option.
My 90 yo Mom got a tablet last year and couldn't be happier. Gave away her computer to a local student.
No problems with the tablet. It just works. She can email, Instagram, Facebook, G+, etc.
I know the question specified "wants to stay with Vista and MS Office" but people who ask questions like that never get a good answer.
Sticking with Vista and MS Office is the worst thing anyone could do.

Re:If it is simple use

[Solandri]

The PC market is not shrinking. What's happening is people and companies are going longer between upgrades, meaning the fewer PCs are sold in a given year. That combined with market share reports in percent (instead of raw numbers) gives the illusion that the PC market is shrinking. If you look at the raw number of PCs in use at any given time, you can see the PC market is still growing. There's a slight slowdown over the last year due to tablets, but the overall trend is still positive.

Re:If it is simple use

[denmarkw00t]

I like this, except for the Android part. The myriad offerings on the Play store that would fool a parent are too many - not trying to start a war (or participate in it), but for the older folks who just don't "get" computing, I'd suggest forking the extra bit for an Apple tablet of some sort.

Re:If it is simple use

[wbr1]

I wanted to clarify

I read

but she struggles with change

as I do not have the time to deal with the questions and problems related to changing her computing environment,

Not to be mean, but it is often true, and is in the case of family I help out. That is why I answered the way I did.

Re:If it is simple use

[BenBoy]

Disclaimer, I wrote this on the commode with a nexus 7.

Had to read that three times before it stopped coming out "I wrote this on a Commodore with a Nexus 7 "

Re:If it is simple use

[gmhowell]

No, no, he write it with the Commodores. Lionel Richie has mad sys admin skills.

Re:If it is simple use

[AmiMoJo]

Rather than a tablet a Chromebook might be better. If his parent likes to do office stuff as be claims then having a keyboard and mouse/trackpad would help. Less of a change from Windows too.

Backup is automatic as well, if you don't mind it being to Google's servers.

Re:If it is simple use

[david_thornley]

Or a tablet with a keyboard. Maybe half of the iPads I see here at work have fold-out keyboards.

Pull the Plug

[dale.furno]

and call it a day

Sell them.

[Anonymous Coward]

Sell the PCs and get them iPads.
Problem solved.

I'm not joking.

Re:Sell them.

[Brad1138]

You seemed to have missed this part of TFA, "I would love to switch her to Linux, but she struggles with change and wants to stay with Vista and MS Office."

Re:Sell them.

[CastrTroy]

They'll complain for the first month, but it won't take them that long to catch on. You could also just say you refuse to help them if they refuse to take advice which would make your ability to help them that much easier. Seems to me they are being a little unreasonable. They are asking for free computer repair service, and won't even change their habits to make it easier on the person doing the repairs. Ask for $50 every time they want you to fix it (Anybody else would charge more), and they'll probably think pretty fast about switching to a new type of device.

Re:Sell them.

[Anonymous Coward]

Ridiculous... Last thing i would ever want to do is charge my parents for computer repair. I owe them a lot for their time and commitment invested in me to make me the man i am today. I am sorry you don't feel that way about your parents.

Re:Sell them.

[Anonymous Coward]

You seemed to have missed this part of TFA, "I would love to switch her to Linux, but she struggles with change and wants to stay with Vista and MS Office."

Depending on which version of Windows and Office they are used to, switching to Linux and LibreOffice may have a smaller learning curve than up-to-date versions of the MS products.

Re:Sell them.

[mrchaotica]

The answer to that is "too bad, this is what you get."

Or maybe, "well now you know how I felt all those times you made me eat my vegetables!" (Not that Linux is unpalatable, of course...)

When it comes to computers, the parent-child relationship often tends to get reversed.

Re:Sell them.

[StripedCow]

Tell them this:
If your radiator is broken, do you ask a thermodynamics professor to fix it?
Of course not, he probably won't even know where to begin, and he will probably get it broken even more.

Re:Sell them.

[CastrTroy]

I also wouldn't want to charge my parents for computer repair, but I also wouldn't feel obliged to help if they also didn't make an effort to not having computer problems in the first place. If they didn't take the advice you gave them about how to make things break less often then they shouldn't be entitled to any services. If you were a mechanic and they called you up every couple of months to fix the brakes because they "ride the brake", wouldn't it be reasonable to expect them to at least change their driving habits if they expect you to service their car for them?

Get them a tablet instead

[JoeyRox]

Most people don't need the flexibility and attendant hassles of PCs anymore. Just give them an iPad or Nexus and be done with it.

Re:Get them a tablet instead

[frdmfghtr]

Most people don't need the flexibility and attendant hassles of PCs anymore. Just give them an iPad or Nexus and be done with it.

And how do you run MS Office on those? The poster specifically mentioned MS Office.

Re:Get them a tablet instead

[Joe_Dragon]

can really type on them and the screen may be to small as well.

Re:Get them a tablet instead

[Anonymous Coward]

It seems the original question included the proviso that the user doesn't want to change from Vista. Is there a tablet that runs vista?

Re:Get them a tablet instead

[sunderland56]

First, I think that he wanted to better set up their existing computer, not discard it and drop $300 on a new one (even if it is gift-buying season).

And second, if someone is not good at learning new things - like the transition from Vista to Linux - then learning an entirely new computer and OS, without such familiar items as a keyboard and mouse, is going to be even harder.

Re:Get them a tablet instead

[omz13]

I got my mom a iMac... installed Office for Mac on it... and the support calls from her dropped to almost zero... the only problem now is that she'll somehow screw up Safari and the toolbar needs to be reset every now and then. Given her past history of screwing up a Windows machine within a year of getting it, and having 'friends' who 'help' install software that she 'needs' on it, moving to OS X was a big win, despite the initial ' this is so new' pushback that occurred for about two weeks.

Re:Get them a tablet instead

[Anonymous Coward]

Most people don't need the flexibility and attendant hassles of PCs anymore. Just give them an iPad or Nexus and be done with it.

And how do you run MS Office on those? The poster specifically mentioned MS Office.

Does it have to specifically be MS Office though? Or can it be a substitute? Apple does have "Pages" for the iPad, and I'm sure there's something similar for Android; or even use Google Docs.

It think the OP should take one step back and look the use cases that need to be solved. E-mail, surfing, social web sites, (simple) documents, music, movies: a good portion of these activities don't need the "traditional" PC anymore for a large portion of the population.

Re:Get them a tablet instead

[Anonymous Coward]

First off, what he asked was "How would YOU secure your parents computer" (emphasis mine). It doesn't seem unreasonable to respond "I wouldn't bother. I would find them a solution that was more secure from the get-go."

Second, it is also not unreasonable to occasionally answer a question with something along the lines of "Are you sure you're asking the right question? A completely different line of thought might lead to a better way to accomplish your end-goals."

Re:Get them a tablet instead

[csumpi]

MS Surface. Pure awesome, despite what those click bait articles tell you.

Re:Get them a tablet instead

[CastrTroy]

I guess I'm just lucky. When my mother in law last asked for computer help, it was because Avast or AVG (can't recall which) was too annoying, and the free license ran out. So I dropped that completely and got MS security Essentials. There was basically nothing installed on her computer that didn't come with it. I guess it helps that the only thing she does is Facebook.

Re:Get them a tablet instead

[Anonymous Coward]

Kingsoft Office Free has word processing, spreadsheet, and presentation

Re:Get them a tablet instead

[westlake]

Most people don't need the flexibility and attendant hassles of PCs anymore. Just give them an iPad or Nexus and be done with it.

The geek is quick to impose his own solutions on others, whether they fit or not.

This geek's mother is comfortable with Windows and MS Office.

Implying that she needs a physical keyboard of standard size and layout and would benefit from a larger monitor than any tablet has to offer.

Re:Get them a tablet instead

[jwestveer]

Yep, the solution is simple. MS is susceptible to thousands of hacks/viruses/botnets, and IOS is not.

Re:Get them a tablet instead

[Anonymous Coward]

Has Redmonds ad budget run dry or why are MS employees pushing that fail tablet within /. comment section?

Seriously. You just won the award for worst and most obvious astroturfing of the year.

Re:Get them a tablet instead

[Applehu Akbar]

MS Office for iPad is Coming Soon. Meanwhile, on a new iPad you get the Apple equivalent (Pages, Numbers, Keynote) no extra charge. Pages, the word processor, accepts DOC/DOCX and operates very similarly to Word, only better.

Re:Get them a tablet instead

[Applehu Akbar]

Parents screw up PCs primarily by browsing home shopping and casino sites, in the same way that tweeners do with porn and pirate download sites. All of these sites are virus factories just waiting for poor suckers/old fuds to visit them with any version of Windows. If you can spring for that iMac, one of the joys of owning one will be watching all those virus .COM and .EXE files thud uselessly into the OS X Downloads folder, like windfalls of rotten fruit.

Re:Get them a tablet instead

[Anonymous Coward]

Get a Surface? It's almost like a PC, except the OS isn't real Windows.

CAPTCHA: "dodged"

Re:Get them a tablet instead

[unixisc]

If she screws up on Safari, an alternative could be to install Camino or Chrome

Re: Get them a tablet instead

[msoftsucks]

I guess you really haven't use this. Surface is nothing but a steaming pile of turds. Totally locked down, no alternative browser, only IE, and very little software available. And definitely no open source programs allowed. Just to prove to myself it was M$ that was artificially restricting this machine, I applied the jailbreak that's available. Using Visual Studio, in no time I had several open source utilities compiled and running. I have an iPad, an Android tablet and a Surface, an I can tell you I am the most productive with the Android tablet. The Microsoft Office requirement that M$ shills keep bringing up is nothing but a red herring. I use open docs format and ALL of my office needs are met with alternative products.

Re: Get them a tablet instead

[gnasher719]

I guess you really haven't use this. Surface is nothing but a steaming pile of turds. Totally locked down, no alternative browser, only IE, and very little software available. And definitely no open source programs allowed.

And that affects Mum and Dad how?

Re:Get them a tablet instead

[jedidiah]

> The geek is quick to impose his own solutions on others, whether they fit or not.

The geek is far more likely to know whether something fits or not. The geek actually has half a clue and can see through the nonsense and branding.

This includes evaluating the mother's fixation on a particular brand of word processor to the exclusion of all others.

That fixation is likely due to years of constant propaganda denigrating anything that's not Microsoft.

Vista in particular is probably the single worst thing someone could be irrationally clinging to.

Re:Get them a tablet instead

[GauteL]

Most people don't need the flexibility and attendant hassles of PCs anymore. Just give them an iPad or Nexus and be done with it.

And how do you run MS Office on those? The poster specifically mentioned MS Office.

You have both. His mother will stop using the PC for all her Internet Browsing, Email checking and installing cutesy cats jumping across the top of the Windows and will use it only when she has to, i.e. for writing documents. She will do this voluntarily, because the iPad is so much easier and nicer to use in her sofa.

You also remove all admin priviliges, set it to auto install updates and install ad-block on the browser. She won't care if this inhibits her a little, because she has her iPad to play on.

You will then have removed the biggest attack vectors for her PC and her PC will be much, much safer and easier to manage. And due to the extremely limited use (she will probably use MS office much more rarely than she realises), the PC will last for years before any upgrade or even defragging is necessary.

Re:Get them a tablet instead

[danomac]

There's at least one tablet I can think of that will run Office.

Re:Get them a tablet instead

[Anonymous Coward]

Probably because it's such a hulking piece of shit that she just doesn't use a computer anymore, but doesn't want to hurt your feelings.

I would use a script to detect any boring videos

[Anonymous Coward]

such as Band of fools

I switched my mom to Ubuntu 12.04

[nicomede]

and she took a few weeks to adapt, now she uses it (mostly) trouble-free. I also enabled Desktop sharing via VNC to avoid driving to her place every time she complains 'I had my icon here and now it's gone' or 'It does not behave as berfore' or 'The menu to send my mails is gone'.
Her grand-children also spend lots of time on this computer while she takes care of them, and I used to clean lots of malware after them... not anymore.

Re:I switched my mom to Ubuntu 12.04

[Anonymous Coward]

Same here, using xubuntu (old PC). Created a limited user, with no ability to change anything in the system. The system auto-logs in with this user, and Firefox opens automatically.

Re:I switched my mom to Ubuntu 12.04

[Selur]

Installed my mom Kubuntu with LibreOffice, Teamviewer, Skype and she too does not have less trouble with Linux than with Windows.
Sure at the beginning it was all a bit confusing, but she adapted a lot faster than I would have thought.
Switching from Office 2003 and Windows XP to LibreOffice and Kubuntu did seem to be less of a hassle for here than switching to one of the newer Office Suits and Windows 8.1.
Installed Windows on here PC and lent her my laptop with linux mint for a month so she could test both and decide.
Yes, both systems were installed with shortcuts to here favorite tools&co, getting her scanner running on Linux was a bit of a hurdle, but worth the effort.
-> as long as the package maintainers do not mess up or through out support for here hardware she is probably fine.
(now that I think about it, she hasn't complained about anything for quite some time now,..)

=> I too would recommend, trying to switch her to Linux, alternatively buying an older Mac might also be an idea. (that worked for my uncle ;))

Re:I switched my mom to Ubuntu 12.04

[SteveFoerster]

My Mom's been on Ubuntu for several years. She had an old Dell that was crawling on Windows, I put Linux on it and it was a much better experience for her. She's never looked back.

Re:I switched my mom to Ubuntu 12.04

[jones_supa]

every time she complains 'I had my icon here and now it's gone' or 'It does not behave as berfore' or 'The menu to send my mails is gone'

Ah, typical Linux desktop bugginess...

Re:I switched my mom to Ubuntu 12.04

[Anonymous Coward]

This is the solution. My entire family uses Ubuntu, they are much, MUCH happier and after the initial hump of getting used to it (1-2 days, longest I've seen was 5 days from my then 83 year old grandfather), you will never have a support call again. Just make sure to install the software and games they want and make sure they can easily find the web browser, and 99% of your work is done.

It also helps to discuss with them how insecure Windows is, although everyone knows that after having to have their system reformatted and reinstalled on a monthly basis :) Nowadays when friends (and their family) come to me with malware on Win7/8, I won't fix it for them unless they allow me to also install Ubuntu on a tiny partition for them. If I can't get around to fix their Windows issue immediately, I tell them to boot to Ubuntu and use that until I can get around to it. Almost every time, the Windows partition goes untouched, as they are extremely happy with Ubuntu.

Don't doubt the ability of other people to adapt. When provided with an obviously better solution to a problem, let them try it for themselves. That is how I've converted tons of people to Ubuntu.

Windows 7?

[frdmfghtr]

How about Windows 7? From what I remember about the steaming pile that was Vista, 7 looks very similar. Sure it's new, but if it looks the same that may be acceptable.

Re:Windows 7?

[ericloewe]

Windows 7 can be made to look almost like Vista (I believe the only thing that isn't easy to change into a Vista facsimile is window transparency, which was disabled in maximized windows in Vista).

Even out of the box, the differences are so minimal that the learning curve should be no problem.

Re:Windows 7?

[unixisc]

But he'd have to buy that. Is it still available in retail outlets?

Re:Windows 7?

[Nimey]

It will still be available for a couple more years. Newegg's got it.

Re:Windows 7?

[MonTemplar]

That was going to be my suggestion as well. Has the added benefit that, unlike Vista, it will still be supported by Microsoft for years to come.

I still wince when I remember being the only person in my old workplace still stuck with an ageing PC running Windows 2000, long past when Microsoft had stopped supporting it and many newer applications required XP or later. Don't go there - it ain't a fun place.

Ubuntu

[Nemura]

Just teach her how to use Ubuntu.

Re:Ubuntu

[sunderland56]

Unfortunately, Ubuntu is trying hard to emulate a Mac, not a Windows box.

It would be interesting to have a linux distro that allowed you a choice of which mainstream OS (xp/vista/7/8/osx) to emulate.

Re:Ubuntu

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe ZorinOS would be a choice

Re:Ubuntu

[Anonymous Coward]

>Unfortunately, Ubuntu is trying hard to emulate a Mac, not a Windows box.
>It would be interesting to have a linux distro that allowed you a choice of which mainstream OS (xp/vista/7/8/osx) to emulate.

Is this a joke?

Linux

[used2win32]

My in-laws were having Windows XP issues, so I upgraded them to Mint. Zero support calls to me since then - and they like it...

Re:Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

"Is this how sons-in-law say 'F- You' these days?"
"Must be!"
"Don't call him ever again."

Re:Linux

[johnnys]

The last time my 82 year old father-in-law visited, he wanted to check some web news sites so I handed him my netbook running Ubuntu. Half an hour later, I told him he was using a Linux system and he was happily surprised since he was used to Win7.

What I learned at that moment is that IF you provide a good system running Linux and presenting the apps a user needs in a usable way, THEN the user doesn't really care whether it's Linux or whatever. Firefox and Thunderbird and Libre Office really are good enough (or better) for any "normal" user doing "normal" things.

I haven't converted his home system yet, only because he has a son who does support for him, so it's Not My Problem. :)

Re:Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

Same here... in 2005 my brother gave up on supporting my parents' PCs due to all the viruses and general fuck-ups of the system (XP), so I took over and installed Ubuntu. At first there was a lot of complaints, but after a couple of months they got used to it. They're quite happy with it since then.

Re:Linux

[westlake]

"Is this how sons-in-law say 'F- You' these days?"

The geek using his position within his family to convert others to Linux is a hardy perennial on Slashdot --- but like most evangelists he never broadcasts his failures.

Re:Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

How many geeks out there don't put Linux on their parent's computer because they somehow think it won't work for them and don't even bother to try? As long as you take the time so all their common scenarios work (printer, email, WINE, etc.) they will be fine.

You might be afraid, your parents might be afraid, but that is just the reptilian part of the brain in control. People just need to set that emotion aside and install it. You could put Arch on someone's computer! Can people please think about the difference in knowledge required to build a car versus drive it?

Re:Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

Eh, I dunno about Libre Office and Open Office. I had to merge two powerpoints, and I could not for the fucking LIFE of me COPY A SLIDE. I needed powerpoint to do that. Again, moving slide 3 from one presentation to another presentation was totes impossible, and the best I found on the net was basically "suck it".

I don't think that what I needed to do was power using office, or requiring niche abilities. Fucking copy slide, how does it work?

But for email and news, yea.

Re:Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly this. They just get confused with the names of things anyway. Call it whatever you like - they won't know. If you really must stick with Microsoft Windows, then make sure you have a good set of backups. Run them hourly, and keep around 1 months worth - ensuring that you visit at least once a month. Each time you are there, also take a backup off-site (back to your house). Make sure your mum has your mobile number, and teach her how to use instant messaging so you can walk her through restoring backups when Windows goes wrong. Also make sure she keeps any personal information encrypted.

Re:Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

True dat: I put an acer microbox with Ubuntu 13.04 using the TV as a monitor with a wireless kbd/mouse in my uncle's house.
The man is 70 and literally hasn't touched anything with a keyboard since 1973.

Browsing, email, IM - he totally adapted and was happy within two weeks. He recently visited a friend and a lot of questions about W8 along the lines of "how is anyone supposed to use it?", "why would anyone use anything but ubunutu?", "people actually pay for that?"
Pretty amusing.

IFSS's (Involuntary Family Support Staff) out there: TeamViewer is your friend.

Re:Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

Color us surprised. You mean, users actually don't care about the OS like most drivers don't care about the number of cylinders in their car engine? Shocking!

Re:Linux

[tepples]

like most evangelists he never broadcasts his failures.

And when they do, they get modded down. For example, I used to complain here on Slashdot that SANE didn't support my Microtek ScanMaker 4850 flatbed scanner, and the answer was always "buy a different one."

Re:Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

I had one success and one failure so far.

My mother insisted on running every get rich quick app she could find on the Internet. A quick installation of Fedora, make sure Wine isn't installed. Check that Firefox is the only browser. Install Adblock, Ghostery to stop most of the get rich quick ads from popping up. I nearly went as far as noscript, but that would break a lot of things on the Interwebs and if I taught her how to whitelist certain pieces she's invariably whitelist everything on every site, so I just didn't bother. Set up AbiWord (because she seems to think it's the most similar to Word - maybe the name? - after running it on Windows for a while). I also set it up so I can SSH into it and run updates and the like. So far no support calls except that one time remote updates broke the proprietary Nvidia driver. Replaced that with Nouveau and heard no end of complaints about performance which went away soon enough. Anyway, mother has been a happy Linux convert for a few years now with no real complaints.

My failure was my father who does nothing but crop a few photos and read his email. Yet, he insists on being able to have every piece of name-brand software installed (at great expense to the management). He also insists on *running as* administrator on his machine and refuses to put in one of those pesky passwords. Also he describes linux as "free shit, how can it be any good?" It's just not worth trying anymore.

My brothers play too many games to convert, unfortunately, so I didn't bother trying.

There you go, a failure for you. I expect it's the same as most failures to convince people off Windows. Either they are convinced that Windows must be good because it's so expensive and everyone runs it, or they are convinced they *need* to have every name-brand piece of software installed even though they won't use it.

Re:Linux

[BringsApples]

I say the same. I switched to Linux, only after running it for server at work for a few years. Once my Windows box died, I switched. At first I was a little nervous (hell I run slackware!) that things would get outta hand. But really, since firefox and thunderbird are what I use most of (there are other things that KDE offers that are really cool, but I haven't really toyed with all of it yet), I notice no difference at all. Most of the things that people do today are web-based, which negates the need for "which OS is better" - THANK GOD!

Re:Linux

[used2win32]

"Is this how sons-in-law say 'F- You' these days?" "Must be!" "Don't call him ever again."

Quite the opposite. My father in law uses it more than the mother in law, she likes her iPad.

I solved his system crash issues, malware issues and his um.... need to tinker with the system. He uses Firefox and Thunderbird most of the time. He likes Picassa for his photos. Libre Office works for his word processor needs. His Brother MFC printer is fully supported. Etc...

He is happy with his computer just working, and I am happy not fixing it.

Re:Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

But what if the failures with Ubuntu are dwarfed by orders of magnitude by the failures of Windows? How many times does Win7/8 have to be drive-by-download attacked and completely owned before people will realize it CANNOT be made secure for the average user? Why would one care about a statistical glitch in comparison to what most intelligent people would consider deliberate malfeasance on the part of Microsoft?

"frozen" configurations

[h00manist]

Freeze all system changes except saving into the the documents folder. There are a number of programs to do it, seems the most popular is Deep Freeze. It allows all system changes, but after reboot it is all gone. Some tweaking will allow making a few things persistent, such as the documents.

http://alternativeto.net/software/deep-freeze/

Re:"frozen" configurations

[Anonymous Coward]

I can imagine my parents saving a document somewhere other than the "Documents" folder, and then asking me where it went once they restarted the computer.

Re:"frozen" configurations

[flonker]

I'll second this. Another similar option is Sandboxie. It sandboxes the browser, preventing any exploits from escaping into the rest of the system. Also, make sure they are using Chrome or Firefox. And finally, ad-blocking software makes a huge difference.

Re:"frozen" configurations

[tibit]

Faronics is a place in decline - demonstrably so. They can't fucking manage sell their stuff online! I mean, come the fuck on, it's 2013, not 1993. If a company is irresponsible enough to have their online shopping links simply broken, then they may, from my perspective, go to hell. I don't trust their technical prowess. They are clueless. They just don't get it.

Re:"frozen" configurations

[Anonymous Coward]

Deep Freeze is brutal. My college uses it and the machines take minutes to boot. The tech savvy students carry around bootable USB drives to get around the problem. I suggest doing the same and using a livecd or USB to get the benefits of Deep Freeze without the hassle of extreme load times.

Re:"frozen" configurations

[gregor-e]

Buddy of mine used to own a gaming cafe. He ran DeepFreeze on all of his computers. This allowed customers to have admin rights, so they could bring in their own games, install whatever they like, surf the seamy underbelly of the net and intentionally try to infect or sabotage the machines to their little black heart's content. All he had to do was press the reset button and the machine would return to its pristine state. With DeepFreeze on a computer, you don't even need to install antivirus software.

Re:"frozen" configurations

[gregor-e]

Broken? I just punched their "Buy Online" link and was taken to a shopping cart that had both their $660 Enterprise version and their $45 single-user version in it. I removed the Enterprise version from my cart and it sure appeared ready to let me complete my order for the individual version. What was broken about it?

Re:"frozen" configurations

[h00manist]

That's what I have. Pretty much every cybercafe has deep freeze. It works perfectly, uses basically no ram, there is no slowdown. Turned off all autoupdates, removed the antivirus. Box never changes anything, boots the same every time. Occasionally I disable it and update all the stuff, but it generally runs somewhat outdated versions. There will be crap infecting sometimes, but only until you reboot.

Android

[Anonymous Coward]

there are less buttons...

Hide the IE and MSO icons.

[Nutria]

Install Firefox, LibreOffice & Thunderbird. Insist that she use them. If she ignores your advice, tell her you can't/won't help her.

(Living on your own, doing your own laundry and being over age 25 adds necessary gravitas.)

Re:Hide the IE and MSO icons.

[Great Big Bird]

Firefox is okay, but LibreOffice when compared to Office 2013 is a piece of shit. If she is still using Office 2003 or before, it might be viable, but 2007 and above - forget it. He doesn't want to change how she uses the computer.

Re:Hide the IE and MSO icons.

[csumpi]

I wish Libre or Open Office would be anywhere near as good as MS Office. But the reality is, they are not even close. Unless all you use it for is type out a lost cat flyer per year.

Re:Hide the IE and MSO icons.

[Anonymous Coward]

I did this with my wife. Eventually I bought her a Mac, and installed FF, Tbird and LibreOffice on it. She was comfortable with it from day one, as she had all the programs she used on a daily basis.

Re:Hide the IE and MSO icons.

[LordWabbit2]

Clearly you have a different relationship with your parents than most people.
If my father says he wants x then x is what he gets
What he used at work, he wants at home, because he is familiar with it and it does what he wants/needs.

Also I have to comment on the fact that people who say that libre office is just as good as Office clearly do not understand or use Office to it's full ability.
Libre office has a looong way to go. (and just to clear things up I fvcken hate Office)
That being said Libre office will do for people why are just typing up the odd email, or summing a list of items etc.
But office has not been a major vector for viruses in a long while.
Do all updates and make sure automatically update is on (it's on by default)
Switch off hide file extensions for known file types
Install a good antivirus.
Most important of all, instill a fear of "When in doubt do not click", or at least forward it to you to check out first.

Re:Hide the IE and MSO icons.

[Nutria]

Clearly you have a different relationship with your parents than most people.

What? That I treat him as an adult instead of as my daddy?

Clearly you have a different relationship with your parents than most people.
If my father says he wants x then x is what he gets

I am a competent adult who has paid his own way in life for much longer than the time that my father paid my way, and have expertise in certain areas.

If he asks for my advice and does not follow it, then I am under no obligation to constantly trail behind him and clean up his messes for him, when there are three other people who rely on me to take care of them.

That being said Libre office will do for people why are just typing up the odd email, or summing a list of items etc.

That's all I've ever used -- and seen my peers use -- MSO for at work. I'd bet more than a dollar that's what "Ask Slashdot's" mother is going to use it for, too.

Re:Hide the IE and MSO icons.

[fast turtle]

On the "When in Doubt" excersise, I was able to do that with a senior that I provide local support for. It's worked quite well with Win7 (She doesn't have admin rights but does have the admin PW when needed). She's called me a few times when something threw her a curve but overall, the support has been minimal.

In discussions with her, she's asked about a tablet and as I've told her, based on her current usage, she'll be fine with what she has until MS ends support for Win7 in 2020 (7 years). At that time, it'll be worth looking at a replacement.

Take away administrator rights

[EmagGeek]

My mom uses her Win7 machine as a User, and not as an Administrator.

You can avoid 99% of viruses, phishing, and other BS simply by taking away administrator rights.

Re:Take away administrator rights

[johnjaydk]

Yeah. Did that with the in laws pc. Worked for years until the old fart took a computer course, demanded the admin password and immediately hosed the thing.

After that, I couldn't be assed to fix the thing again.

Re:Take away administrator rights

[Anonymous Coward]

There is an awfully gaping 1% hole left though, as evidenced by how many infected Win7/8 systems I observe on a daily basis. Escalation privilege is laughably common in Windows exploits, and nearly all user-level malware exploits 0-day attacks to escalate privilege and own the target computer. This happens with alarming regularity if you know what to look for. Scan those outbound ports!

Re:Take away administrator rights

[Anonymous Coward]

I did all of that plus adblock plus (one of the newish vectors for viri is adverts). Disabled the java plugins. When they get flash mostly as javascript i will be removing that as well. I would do noscript. But that is too finiky.

Also put them behind some sort of NAT device (wireless naturally :)). It is amazing how many cable/dsl installers just plug the computer right into the raw internet. That is just asking for trouble. The nice thing is when I visit I set it up exactly like my network and my laptops just click into their network. Which saves time for whatever might be wrong. Then when they decide to get an ipad (and they will at some point) it will be easy to setup.

My two cents

[Anonymous Coward]

You are doing all you can for the most part. Putting old folks on Linux is just asking for trouble. They don't want open source, they want compatibility with their friends and family. That means Windows, or at least a Mac.

If you want heightened security, buy them a firewall that does more than just NAT. Lock down their Wi-Fi with a good WPA2 passcode. Just remember you will have to maintain it.

Vigilance

[spire3661]

No matter what you set up on a PC they will break it somehow. Trust me on this one. The best I.T. decision I ever made was giving my mother-in-law an ipad.

Re:They're dead

[morari]

Bruce Wayne, is that you?

install kubuntu with fluffy theme

[Anonymous Coward]

kubuntu looks just like windows.. she won't feel much difference. you have to motivate her to use the new system. put some pretty wallpapers or flowers or red/fluffy theme.. kde has bunch of them. she is gonna love it.

ZorinOS

[Anonymous Coward]

A linux distro that mimics Win 7 UI
http://zorin-os.com/

Re:ZorinOS

[Anonymous Coward]

(Also, PearOS for those coming from Macintosh http://pearlinux.fr/)

Re:ZorinOS

[Runaway1956]

I always thought "pear shaped" was a description of a catastrophe.

www.google.com/search?q=things+went+pear+shaped&oq=things+went+pear+shaped&aqs=chrome..69i57.3339j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Google nexus 10

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

Get a tablet, show them how to use google docs. Enough.

My parents

[Anonymous Coward]

Unplug it.

Apple

[tonywestonuk]

When I see comments like this, I am SOOOO grateful that mum bought a core duo imac 6 years ago, and it still is going strong....

Re:Apple

[Overzeetop]

Because it works well, or because she calls somebody else when all the shit breaks?

My mother let her iPhone update to iOS7 and she is still bitching about where all her stuff went and how she can't find anything anymore.

Re:Apple

[tonywestonuk]

Apple don't keep changing stuff around in their Mac OS, unlike Microsoft do with windows, so my mum can keep up to date without getting lost.

Yes, I do have to fix stuff sometimes, but that doesn't include removing dozens of spyware etc.

Re:Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

Unless you are a developer. Every fucking time a new version of OSX is released we need to re-compile our applications since the old ones no longer work.

Re:Apple

[csumpi]

Apple don't keep changing stuff around in their Mac OS, unlike Microsoft do with windows

You obviously have not used OSX or Windows recently. I use both daily, and I have to tell you, every time I upgrade OSX, it takes a full day of work getting things back to usable.

Re:Apple

[Runaway1956]

That really is such a chore - recompiling your application to work with the new kernel. Such a terrible chore. It takes literally HOURS for a large application. Minutes at least for a medium sized app, several seconds for the smallest. Gods, I don't know how a "developer" can be expected to go to such trouble! /sarcasm

You twit, if you didn't intend to actually SUPPORT your application, then you shouldn't have put the damned thing up for public consumption. Your nerd/geek/developer card is hereby revoked, you putz!

Re:Apple

[tibit]

Seriously? I upgraded my laptop from 10.6 to 10.8 to 10.9. The few problems I've had in 10.6 to 10.8 upgrade, were only due to open source software lagging behind and not being Cocoa and 64 bit ready. Everything else worked fine. Once tcl/tk and wxWindows were up to snuff, I could update macports. It was smooth sailing otherwise.

I've upgraded two other machines from 10.6 straight to 10.9. It took way less than a day in spite of it being a major upgrade. I've mostly just let it install, and then let it install all the app store updates necessary. IIRC the Messages needed to have the jabber account removed and re-added, otherwise it couldn't connect. Hardly a major issue, and I can't imagine a minor update, say from 10.9 to 10.9.1 would take much time at all. It never did. The only thing I need to do on my "ancient" laptop is to re-run the TRIM-enabling script for the SSD. That's all. There were some minor glitches in various Apple applications due to Mavericks, but this required no work at all on my end to fix - just wait for Apple to release necessary updates.

Re:Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

My anecdotal evidence cancels your out. I, too, use both Windows and OS X daily, however all the OS X upgrades have been relatively quick and painless ("relatively" due primarily to bandwidth limitations, since Apple won't provide physical install media) whereas every Windows upgrade has been a time-sink PITA.

As for advice to OP: get a Mac. I did this for my folks half a decade or so back and it's been one of the best computer-related things I've done for them. Prior to that, annual visits involved a thorough de-gunking of their Windows systems, not because they did anything stupid like click anything shiny -- I trained them better than that -- but from general Windows crud buildup. Plus, of course, periodic "help, something's won't working right" call throughout the year. Since the Mac, all has been golden. The few calls for help since the switch have mostly ended up being ISP-related issues.

Re:Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple don't keep changing stuff around in their Mac OS, unlike Microsoft do with windows

You obviously have not used OSX or Windows recently. I use both daily, and I have to tell you, every time I upgrade OSX, it takes a full day of work getting things back to usable.

What are you doing, a full format and reinstall? Buying a new Mac each time?

Practically nothing, UI-wise, has changed since, oh, 10.4 or so. Do a straight upgrade, and your settings carry over. If it takes you all day to do a two-hour upgrade, your problem isn't with Apple, buddy.

Chromebook

[Anonymous Coward]

This sounds like a great use case for a Chromebook. Easy to use, locked down by design. Everything lives in "the cloud" so reinstall if there's a problem.

Re:Chromebook

[Overzeetop]

Right up to the point where she has to turn it on and use it. See, his mother knows where everything is in Vista and MS Office (prob 2000 or 2003). Can you set up a Chromebook to EXACTLY replicate where everything is and how everything works on a Chromebook? If not, then no amount of security in the world will stop her from complaining incessantly about not being able to find her stuff.

Firefox + NoScript

[Anonymous Coward]

If she already uses Firefox, great, if not, see if she can accept it. If she does, then add NoScript in and pre-configure it to only allow scripts from the sites she visits and their legit links and support sites. Basically, walk through her bookmarks and URL shortcuts and give just enough privileges to make the site load properly. That'll block a lot of the skeevy ads from appearing and protect against the vast majority of X-site scripting. You may still have to deal with new sites "not working" from time to time.

You may also want to install WOT (Web of Trust) if your existing security package doesn't block dangerous sites. That'll put a big warning screen up on any sites that are recognized as unsafe.

Also, if you can at least get her to upgrade to Win 7, that should stay in her comfort zone while giving you a few more generations of security updates.

Unless she absolutely needs it, uninstall Java.

And finally, since you have her off of Admin rights, I'm assuming you are doing all the administration-otherwise she'll forget some day and go out on the web when logged in as Admin. In that case, you'll have to go over there once a month to update Windows, Firefox, Adobe Flash+Reader and possibly Java. Or at least every three months.

Re:Firefox + NoScript

[Arker]

I used to do this but these days it takes hours to get firefox anywhere near sane or usable after installing or defaulting it. It's simply too much work. Safari for windows is surprisingly functional with defaults however.

Re:Firefox + NoScript

[tibit]

these days it takes hours to get firefox anywhere near sane or usable after installing or defaulting it

WTF? What are you talking about? You install it and you use it. That's about I've ever done with firefox. What's your problem?

Re:Firefox + NoScript

[Arker]

"WTF? What are you talking about? You install it and you use it. "

Eh, no. The draw for Firefox FROM THE BEGINNING was that it was a bare bones, sane browser that was easily extensible. Firefox adoption was driven by extensions, and I dont know anyone that dropped netscape until the necessary extensions were ready to use.

Over time they have continually introduced severe UI regressions. Each time people fix it the best they can, using extensions, or hunting around about:config for obscure settings to get things working correctly again.

At this point, after using firefox for about a decade, a bare install is about the ugliest, least usable, and least functional piece of software I have ever seen. Even Internet Explorer beats it handily, as much as it hurts me to say that.

Re:Firefox + NoScript

[Whorhay]

That is an interesting point of view to me. I dislike the default look of Firefox and get very annoyed with the attempts to clone the look of Chrome. But even then I've found the newer Firefox UI tolerable with a couple easy changes without using extensions or messing about in the settings much. The only addon I have for Firefox is NoScript, and I pretty much won't consider using any browser that doesn't have that functionality available either by default or through an addon.

Re:Firefox + NoScript

[Arker]

Noscript is a very large part of what keeps me using firefox. Chrome was so creepy it was uninstalled and manually purged within a few hours.

But I currently have 14 extensions involved, there are maybe 2 or 3 that I could live without. I used to setup firefox for all my friends and family and I would spend 5 minutes to set it up and be done with it. Now if I try that I get this crazy thing I dont even know how to use myself. I spend hours of my time keeping it working through updates on my machine but it's unreasonable for me to do that with every one of my friends and acquaintances, so they get IE or Safari instead these days.

Re:They're dead

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm batman, you insensitive clod!

sell PC, buy mac mini

[smash]

You, the OP, are a nerd. Your parents are not. Apple get "normal people". Do them a favour and get them something they won't hate.

Re:sell PC, buy mac mini

[smash]

... and the whole backup thing? time machine/time capsule. set/forget. if they ever need to reinstall the machine themselves, hold option, network boot/install, restore from time machine backup when prompted. it's so easy, your grandmother could do it.

Re:sell PC, buy mac mini

[Anonymous Coward]

This is also fine advice. My mom finally broke down and got a Mac, and it went from some Russian's computer to her computer.

Walled garden

[Anonymous Coward]

An unorthodox but secure way is to put her PC behind a small little OpenBSD box or something running squid and configure it so her PC simply can't connect to anything that isn't whitelisted. There are probably whitelists out there to make this configuration easy. As a plus you can hide those annoying banner ads other "questionable" things on the Internet.

It's almost like cutting the network cable. Of course use this approach in concert with others.

Problems?

[jd142]

What type of problems? Is she installing a bunch of ad toolbars? So many install in the user folder, so no admin rights are necessary. Some of the pop-up malware doesn't need to have admin rights to infect the pc. They drop the executable in the appdata folder or a subfolder with a randomized name and start up from HKCU\software\microsoft\windows\start so it is all in the user's area. Try firefox (or chrome) with adblock and change the shortcut icon to the IE icon. Migrate bookmarks and few people will notice the difference.

Does she just hibernate the computer and rarely reboots, so you get slowness because of memory leaks?

I'll second the suggestion to upgrade from vista to 7. From a user's perspective they are practically identical in look and feel. Only a few icons have changed and I'll bet you can find a skin for 7 to make it look exactly like vista.

I like the tablet suggestions, but if the person is really change adverse, that can be a big shock. I hate to say it, but windows rt might be the best way to transition her to a tablet. If you like the idea of a tablet, try a Kindle as a cheap way to test the waters.

OpenDNS

[Anonymous Coward]

In addition to some of the suggestions above, I would set their DNS servers to OpenDNS

Re:OpenDNS

[Anonymous Coward]

In addition to some of the suggestions above, I would set their DNS servers to OpenDNS

No, no, no! apk's host file FTW!

Kubuntu

[Anonymous Coward]

Then try Kubuntu. It is much more akin Windows, with a taskbar, "start" menu, icon tray. I've switched my mum's pc from Windows XP to Kubuntu 13.10. As she was already using Firefox, Thunderbird and LibreOffice, the transition was easy for her. And for me it was also easy, thanks to Firefox'es sync and IMAP. The only complaint I got so far is "it looks different" :)

Re:Kubuntu

[dotancohen]

I second this. I've moved people from Windows to Kubuntu telling them that it is Windows [7|8|9] and they love it. Just don't tell them what it is called.

Tips: Firefox instead of Rekonq, Lancelot instead of the default KDE menu, remove all desktop widgets and 'lock' the desktop and panel.

Re:Kubuntu

[Anonymous Coward]

Or just switch the default K menu to Classic mode, so it looks like the Windows XP menu.

Get them a chromebook

[Anonymous Coward]

They are cheap, easy to use and secure.

tell her to stop surfing for pr0n

[Anonymous Coward]

Or install K9.

Chromebook!

[Anonymous Coward]

Chromebook!

Re:Chromebook!

[Cinder6]

This doesn't really fit the OP's requirement of running MS Office (and being Vista...), but it really is a good option for many people who are tired of tech support calls from parents. We got one for my mom, and I don't think I've ever needed to "fix" it except for one time it lost the network configuration for some reason.

Don't have an answer? Change the question

[wonkey_monkey]

without changing the way she uses her PC or enforcing a new OS on her again

When he was alive...

[XB-70]

Loved the dead parents joke above....

When the Old Man was alive, I set him up with SuSE Linux and locked it (mostly) down. He ran it for 5-6 years. It never crashed, got a virus or had any known breaches.

With the release of WIndows 8.1/8.2 which demands and tracks huge amounts of personal information, Microsoft's offering is contra-indicated.

I'll let better people than I argue about the details of which distro/browser combination to use...

Use AdBlock and NoScript

[fey000]

That which helped me the most with this issue was enforcing Firefox with Adblock and Noscript, and setting the AV to update daily without confirmation and run scans every other day. This has reduced the warnings / malware numbers from roughly 120 to 0 when I run the scans manually.

The only problem is that you need to make sure they don't simply click "allow scripts globally" every time something doesn't work.

Good luck.

Re:Use AdBlock and NoScript

[ckedge]

> enforcing Firefox with Adblock and Noscript

Yup, this. My 65 year old mom was able to put up with the annoyances of Noscript. She told me all the websites she regularly uses and I went through her bookmarks and history and configured Noscript to allow the minimums necessary on the sites that didn't quite work without partial permissions.

I even went so far as to install a local copy of VMware and put a browser in it without noscript (but with adblock), and told her to use it if she was ever "browsing dark corners and stuff she doesn't normally browse, wanted to click on a link in e-mail, or wanted to install something".

The computer within a computer confused her a little bit, don't think she ever did really understood that, but she got used to it and knew how to use it.

I think I was lucky that she'd not been on the internet long nor signed up for anything ever -- she got zero spam. That might be your second biggest viral vector. To counter that, I'd say tell her she's not to look at attachments or click on links in e-mail, even and especially if the e-mail came from friends or family, without forwarding the e-mail to you first.

With a hammer

[jaketeater]

With a hammer

Basic Protection

[Anonymous Coward]

Perhaps Unbound DNS so she is resistant to DNS Cache poisioning attacks.
http://unbound.net/
You probably already have these installed but just in case Avast Antivirus, Malwarebytes, Fanboy's TPL List For IE. If you use IE. If not he has Adblock list too.
http://www.fanboy.co.nz/ie.html

You don't

[BeanBagKing]

Simple as that, you don't, it's just not possible....

I'd start with Avast, maybe Malwarebytes. Install Chrome, put it on their desktop and change the icon to Internet Explorer. Use SpyBot to blacklist sites. Setup everything to auto-update and auto-scan so they don't have to be bothered with any of it.

Then come back in a month, Secunda PSI and Qualys Browser give you a good way to keep track of what needs to be updated. Update it all. Registry doesn't really need to be cleaned these days, unless it gets really bad, I've found it actually does help performance a bit, CCleaner does a good job of this. Make sure everything is up to date and clean. Now go to the Control Panel, uninstall all the toolbars, uninstall Mcafee, etc.

Repeat this process every month... You can make things better, but you can't secure it.

Windows VM

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows as a guest OS, Linux as a host using Virtualbox.

Set up a base Windows VM and clone it for her. When she ruins it, delete it and launch another clone. You can even ssh in and do it remotely.

linux and one app at a time...

[Anonymous Coward]

I extricated myself from Windoze over a period of years, and so this is my recommendation. Before anything backup onto external drive.

1) Find the list of application functionality that you *need*. We'll get to *want* in a minute...

2) Install whatever flavour of linux you feel comfortable with. I use opensuse, but you might find mint or ubuntu easier due to large forums for non-technical users.

3) If you can find all the applications you NEED, e.g. email, browsers etc
4) for any apps that you want that you cannot find a less involved approach is using WINE or Crossover. WINE is free, Crossover costs a little, but has some support. Many windoze apps will run unmodified under it, some need tweaks.
5) Copy all your user data to the linux user account. It is generally not a good idea to have user and admin be the same account, but this is not the linux default.
6) For applications that are running natively, your data will be in the same place. For those apps you are running using WINE/Crossover you will need to point the apps to where it is.

Avoid using a VM if you can, not because it will not work, but you cannot control the portion that microsoft provides i.e. the OS.

If you run one application at a time under linux/WINE, you can fine grain the permissions, and limit exposure to windoze failings.

This is the simplest and least developed approached. For a few years I used VMware and a SAMBA mount from the linux system.

Nowadays, I would recommend getting a BTRFS underlying linux so you have snapshots available, and stop the problems with "cryptlocker" and other nasty viruses destroying your data.... If you have important data encrypt it. If you have vital data, back it up!! externally!! Often!!

FOSS is not perfect, but provides a lot of the tools you need, if you are willing to change. Eventually when you have got away from proprietary platforms, you no longer look to them first to provide your computing needs, and will be able to help others....

My $0.02.

What about Linux guest in VM in seamless mode

[Brad1138]

To run browser(s)? If she is using web based email, then all her online actions are through Linux. I would think that would be more secure than Linux host/Windows guest. It doesn't necessarily need to be in seamless mode, but it might be more user friendly to her if it is.

secure the network

[Anonymous Coward]

secure LAN with ClearOS edgerouter and administer it remotely...

Linux. Full stop

[Anonymous Coward]

I would secure my or any one's parents' PC by first installing a well supported and regarded Linux distribution, with a firewall, ClamAV to repel viruses that could infect a Windows computer to which e-Mails are sent, and a simple login authentication with password that they would easily remember, but could not be be easily guessed by anyone else.

Remind them never to click on any Bank or other business ad or e-mail for which they do no business, and that all their insurance and banking vendors would send important info by snail mail.

Nothing else in needed or required.

Is it as bad a Symantec?

[NotSoHeavyD3]

I ask since that's what we use in work. It's one of the things that makes my system really slow(since it scans my hard drive constantly.) yet I've seen at least 2 people here that have gotten viruses anyway over the few years I've been here. (Considering the site is less than 50 people that sucks as far as I'm concerned.)

Re:Is it as bad a Symantec?

[Curunir_wolf]

Is it as bad a Symantec?

No. In fact, I can't really think of anything that is. Maybe there are a few viruses that are as bad.

Re:Is it as bad a Symantec?

[mwvdlee]

I've never encountered a virus that was more difficult to remove than Norton.
I've also never had as much damage from a virus as the damaged caused by simply running Norton.
I quite honestly treat Norton as malware.

Re:Is it as bad a Symantec?

[Anonymous Coward]

Obviously you have not used McAfee.

Re:Is it as bad a Symantec?

[Frosty Piss]

I ask since that's what we use in work. It's one of the things that makes my system really slow(since it scans my hard drive constantly.)

Maybe you need to tweak the settings and have it do full scans at specific times, like after work...

yet I've seen at least 2 people here that have gotten viruses anyway over the few years I've been here.

In a couple of years only two people got viruses? Not bad.

You could of course spend a lot of money on crap-wear like Symantec with no discernible security gain, or you could educate your fellow employees not to surf porn and warez sites at work and not open unknown attachments...

Re:Is it as bad a Symantec?

[NotSoHeavyD3]

I would but we have a "help desk" that manages settings. (Pretty much they can push down software and put any settings they want on your system because we log into a domain. I've been tempted to take away domain admin's rights to my machine but I figured I'd get an earful from managers.) Also educating co-workers would be an utter waste of time. (Admittedly not the firmware or hardware team. They're so tech savvy they run Linux.)

Re:Is it as bad a Symantec?

[DeathElk]

You'd better read that licensing agreement for MSSE again, you are limited to ten installs in an organisation.

Re:Is it as bad a Symantec?

[Anonymous Coward]

I used to agree - but the new versions of Norton (360) use a whitelist instead of a blacklist style of blocking and it is very much more effective. No matter how recent the exploit, if "c:\users\myname\chrome\cache\23523339aa932099s9900x.exe" wants to run, I want a damn pop-up warning.

Re:Is it as bad a Symantec?

[Mashdar]

I added some RAM and reformatted some aging work machines a few years ago, and they were running amazingly fast (compared to before the format). Then I re-installed Norton and they became unbearably slow immediately. I never knew before that just how bad Norton had become (having not used it personally since ~2000). With forced version changes, Norton makes entry-range computers unusable within a few years, in my experience. I can't believe they willingly produce such a system-crippling product. It is really shocking.

Re:Is it as bad a Symantec?

[Urza9814]

I've never encountered a virus that was more difficult to remove than Norton.
I've also never had as much damage from a virus as the damaged caused by simply running Norton.
I quite honestly treat Norton as malware.

Try a machine with both Norton and McAfee installed side-by-side.

That was a few years ago. My god that thing was SLOW. Two bloated virus scanners constantly scanning, and constantly interrupting and messing with the other...literally would take more than thirty minutes to get the control panel open. Ended up going in with a Linux LiveCD, overwriting the executables for both of those, and suddenly the PC was actually *usable*!

That, and a few other problems with that same system, are what got me to also start thinking of Norton as malware...

Re:Is it as bad a Symantec?

[pr0fessor]

mid to late 90s McAfee would corrupt the network stack when you tried to uninstall it. I worked at an ISP at the time and I used to dread the words "I uninstalled McAfee"

Re:Is it as bad a Symantec?

[riis138]

The amount of registry keys and hooks alone left behind by Norton when I uninstalled it from a co-workers laptop would keep me from letting it touch any of my machines. +1 for treating it as malware

Re:Is it as bad a Symantec?

[vandamme]

Insert Ubuntu live disk, click "install". Problem solved.

by removing windows

[FudRucker]

and installing Linux and configuring an IPTables firewall script that runs every time the PC boots up so i only have to visit once a week to check for software updates., all mom does is play various solitaire games and email a few family & friends, buy a few things on amazon and Linux does all those things quite nicely

steadystate

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows steadystate is a little known godsend. In situations where networked images weren't gonna happen it can maintain a specific setup and importantly is free to use. You're welcome.

Re: steadystate

[Anonymous Coward]

Dead and buried. Win 8 doesn't support it properly.

MIcrosoft EMET

[Anonymous Coward]

MS The Enhanced Mitigation Experience Toolkit is a nice extra security layer.

Lock it down

[bensw]

You can use Software Restriction Policies or AppLocker so that they can only run the whitelisted programs and not random .exe files and whatnot. You can set this up with various rules, like path or publisher (for signed software).
AppLocker is easier to setup, but not available for all Windows versions.
It might seem like a drastic measure, but at the end of the day your parents probably don't need to install new software themselves. Automatic updates for programs can still work, if you set it right (for example with publisher rules).

Other than that: don't install software unless absolutely required (such as Java), use a PDF reader with JS disabled, disable macros in Office (if possible) and some other stuff...

Chromebook!

[ArchieBunker]

The OS is self healing and comes with a full keyboard. Your tech support calls will disappear.

my suggestion

[skovnymfe]

Windows 7 and Chrome with Adblock+Ghostery

That's what I did and it hasn't worked out too bad yet.

Linux

[Eggplant62]

I put my dad's PC up with Linux a few years ago. I have him set up with reduced user privileges so he cannot fuck anything up. He does very well with everything he needs to do, and I've not had to worry about anything that he's doing with that PC in just as much time.

Step 1

[Anonymous Coward]

Step 1: Ask her to stop watching porn from disreputable sites. At least introduce her to RedTube and xHamster.

DeepFreeze

[Anonymous Coward]

You could deep freeze the computer, aka make all changes non-persistant except in her Users folder.

Personal Case: WebConverger to Ubuntu

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd like to share my personal similar story, which doesn't necessary apply wholy to your case.
My mother uses the computer mostly for web browsing, and on windows she seemed to always get some sort of malware after 1/2 weeks. So first I made her use a WebConverger liveCD (web kyosk linux distro) and later switched her to Ubuntu. It's what she uses nowadays.
My mother was never very computer savvy, and doesn't use office much, so it's not clear if this helps you at all, but it might, so I'm sharing it.
Best Regards.

iPad. Seriously.

[dawnkelly]

I bought my Mother an iPad 2 years ago. I didn't realize how profound the change over was for her until I saw her helping one of our other relatives with their new iPad. Not only had she mastered her iPad, it made her feel smart again.
She still has her Vista desktop connected to a printer and uses it when she needs to print or fill out online forms. But that only happens a couple times a year. We even got her a little JBL dock so that she could listen to music last year and she fell in love with the iPad all over again. It's crazy.
But it was a good reminder for me. Technical people get caught up in different camps (i.e. Linux vs. Windows vs. Mac). We forget that good tech is good tech. And when you can watch your own tech-resistant parents become empowered by one device. It's good tech.
I specifically went with an iPad because of their walled app garden. Higher functioning users could probably be just fine with an android tablet but this was my Mother. A woman who gets very emotional when things don't work right. And now 90% of my extended family have iPads because of her.
So before you think about changing your Mother's desktop, change the way you're looking at the problem. Users will try to tell you what they think they need but *hopefully* most of us are smart enough to go back and ask them what the problem is (not what they think the solution should be).
As I said, we did keep her desktop but the tasks that would open her up to viruses (surfing) now happen on the iPad. I went from having to clean her machine 4 or 5 times a year to zero. Getting that time back was well worth the price of the iPad.

Re:iPad. Seriously.

[dk20]

Apple PR department?

As others have asked, does it run MS office? You saw this right "wants to stay with Vista and MS Office."

Re:iPad. Seriously.

[geek]

Apple PR department?

As others have asked, does it run MS office? You saw this right "wants to stay with Vista and MS Office."

No it runs iWork, which is free and better for home use. Now fuck off troll.

Re:iPad. Seriously.

[Anonymous Coward]

Why should she need Office?

NO private person needs the complete functionality of MS Office. No one.

To write letters there is Apple Pages, free of charge.
And quite a lot of other office products for iPads.

Re:iPad. Seriously.

[Anonymous Coward]

Why should she need Office?

NO private person needs the complete functionality of MS Office. No one.

To write letters there is Apple Pages, free of charge. And quite a lot of other office products for iPads.

All true. But then you have to use MacOS/IOS. If you're going to do that, just use one of the open source BSD variants.

Re:iPad. Seriously.

[dk20]

I think the toll is you.. "better" is in the eye of the beholder. If the person knows how to use MS Office why should they switch to "iWork"?

PS.

Once someone reverts to swearing in a public thread you pretty much know what you are dealing with.

Re:iPad. Seriously.

[tibit]

Mainly because MS Office by default drags in the entire, unwanted in this case, operating system with it.

Practically speaking, though, MS Office 2010 works great on wine, even on OS X, so I wouldn't worry. And I personally would NOT advise anyone to use MS Office for Mac. It's a disaster - all the purported compatibility benefits simply aren't there, since it's a separate code base. If you really want office on OS X or Linux, use it via wine. Otherwise, use libreoffice and be done with it.

Re:iPad. Seriously.

[dk20]

Actually, its not unwanted. The OP states his mom wants to stick with Vista and MS office but it looks like they want to convert her over to Linux.

I struggled with the same problem a few months ago when i tried to convert my kids off windows. Two were more willing to move but the third was a holdout. He eventually had a number of virus issues (even though the PC runs avast) and i told him to fix it himself. After struggling for a few hours he got it to boot back up again but lost a lot of his data.

The other day he bugged me to convert him back (from Ubuntu back to windows). I reminded him about his last round of problems and he has decided to stick with Ubuntu.

Totally agree with you on LibreOffice. Its a great package and has what you typically need. The only issue i have with it is it has difficulty loading the Canadian dictionary (its a bit of a struggle but eventually it works).

You have to show people the pro/con and get them to convert on their own, its hard to ram linux on someone if the person doesnt want it.

Re:iPad. Seriously.

[Anonymous Coward]

Not for everyone. The iPad is too heavy for an elderly person with arthritis to hold. The screen is too small for someone with less than perfect eyesight. So the iPad is not a good replacement for a desktop PC you don't hold in your hand, which has a big monitor.

(Now the new iPad that just came out may be lighter in weight, but I am not going to pay Apple to find out.)

Re:iPad. Seriously.

[dawnkelly]

Apple PR? Sweet. Do I get paid for this?
Unfortunately it's just the truth.

And yes. I did see the MS Office requirement. My Mother also had the same requirement because that was all she knew how to use. And she still has it loaded on her Vista machine but has managed to find alternatives on her iPad. All by herself. The risk isn't with Office, it's with the browser. And after spending a year before this trying to teach her how to run firefox with noscript... that was even more painful ("But all the websites are broken now").

My argument isn't "how to stop parents from hurting themselves" it's more about what can you give them to not make them feel like morons. I don't care who comes up with the best solution, I just want the one that works. At my house we run Linux, Mac and one Windows machine (for work). Each one has it's own purpose. But as an admin the last thing I want to do is spend my weekend doing more work for my relatives, so it doesn't matter to me that Apple has the best solution right now. Because in another year or two, someone else will probably have a better one and I'll check that out too.

Re:iPad. Seriously.

[dk20]

"NO private person needs the complete functionality of MS Office. No one."
That is a pretty bold statement, probably the result of years spent studying everyone on earth to determine their needs?

Its fascinating how iPad is he solution to the question "How Would You Secure Your Parents' PC?"
Is there some sort of dongle or adapter which allows an iPad to act as a PC security device?

Re:iPad. Seriously.

[dwpro]

Slashdot is a community that's been so vociferously anti-Microsoft because of the anti-competitive behavior and vendor lock in since its inception. I'm still perplexed why so many of us are readily promoting the Terminator 2 version of Microsoft to negate a few support visits for mom (that honestly, you shouldn't have had to make if you'd set her machine up properly).

Re:iPad. Seriously.

[Anonymous Coward]

You saw this, right: "change the way you're looking at the problem."

Maybe she wants to stay with Vista and MS Office, but that doesn't mean that this is the best course of action. Is she using office documents/presentations that absolutely have to be Office-compatible or is it a preference based on not knowing what else is available? I think 'wants' is the key word here.
Sometimes when people ask for advice, they are receptive to 'outside the box' thinking. Sometime not.

Re:iPad. Seriously.

[david_thornley]

He saw it. He just isn't sticking strictly to it.

After hanging out on Stack Overflow for a while, I noticed that there were a lot of questions saying "How do I use X to accomplish Y?" when X was really unsuited for Y. Some people get stuck on ideas that just aren't going to work. Often, the best answer was "Don't use X, use Z instead," provided by some instructions. I started exhorting people to tell us about the problem, not about some half-baked idea for a solution that just wouldn't work.

The idea here is not to adhere blindly to stated requirements, but to find a good solution for the actual problem. This is easiest to solve by moving to some Unix or Unix-alike, providing the necessarily functionality is there. If the original parent uses MS Office in depth, that won't work, since there really isn't any good drop-in replacement. If the original parent uses MS Office like 95% of the people I've seen, any reasonable word processing program (possibly with a simple spreadsheet) will work just fine, and it's easier to get them used to slight changes than to purge malware at inconvenient times.

My first question, therefore, would be if the user really needs Vista (which is going to go out of support in a few years; IIRC it never did match XP's market share, and it's now two OS versions back) and MS Office (which drags a lot of baggage with it). The answer might well be yes, but it usually is no. In that case, do something based on Mac OSX or iOS or Linux or Android.

Having professionally dealt with actual users, they very often don't know what they want, and their initial requests are often loaded with details that will actually make the final product worse for them. It's often best to ignore much of what they say about the system they want, and give them one that solves their problems.

Local GPO

[Anonymous Coward]

You might want to look into Local Group Policies inside Windows. You can actually do a lot security wise inside the Local GPO of a Windows Machine.

http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc725970.aspx

Just to be safe

[Binkleyz]

Create a host file in the OS you're giving them redirecting any http requests to known online shopping tv channels (QVC and the like), reverse mortgage companies, life insurance companies that prey on the elderly, etc. Maybe redirect to something to do negative reinforcement, like goatse.

WARNING, 13 THREATS DETECTED

[zelkovamoon]

In my experience virus infections happen most often by either clicking on suspect internet banners or P2P file sharing. I doubt your mommy is racking up the copyright notices, but she very well may be decieved by fraudulent banners; so my suggestions would be 1. get her to use firefox or chrome, install adblock plus and https everywhere addons 2. Use Microsoft Security Essentials - maybe not the greatest, but just fine protection generally. 3. make sure her computer is set to update automatically, as that should help mitigate some security vulnerabilities 4. as a secondary antivirus program, malwarebytes has in my experience, been very good. All the software i mentioned above is free, good luck brotato.

Replace it

[Anonymous Coward]

With a Mac; solve a big chunk of the problems right there.

Re:replace it

[eyenot]

yeah but how long until Apple forces obsolescence of their Mac or iPad?

Don't change it - give em a new one

[flyingfsck]

Folks hate change, but everybody loves something new. So instead of fixing their old crappy computers or installing Linux, I give them a new netbook/chromebook running some kind of Linux. They immediately start to use the new shiny one and I never get any support calls, since the machines just work and keep working, year after year.

Re:Don't change it - give em a new one

[Anonymous Coward]

Not everyone can subsist on an overpriced hunk of shit. Some people actually need a machine that doesn't things other than browsing the web.

Re:They're dead

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe try Zorin OS. It's linux, but looks like Windows.

Stop treating her like a child

[beelsebob]

People who are treated like children behave like them. Give her the responsibility to sort it out when it goes wrong, and she'll quickly become an adult and learn how it works.

Re:Stop treating her like a child

[eyenot]

Would be nice. But I've been consultant to my family on computer issues since I was 14 years old, over two decades of service. They never figure it out. Some people just never do. Especially when you're dealing with family, the issue of who is treating who as a child typically goes in the direction of older to younger, not the other way around.

MCSE is not good enough

[Antique Geekmeister]

Goodness. I make a fair bit of my salary from environments where people have such casual attitudes to security, and install a single tool as a "fixed all my problems".

Good security takes layers. Robust backups, proven recovery or rebuild procedures, good practices for sanitizing incoming data, procedures to transfer sensitive data securely, and ways to safely store seldom used passwords are all subjects requiring thought and consistency. Schedule some time with your parents to walk though their usage patterns with them, to help them have backup practices and recover procedures they can work with. Work with them on sound password practices.

Too many people, and companies, have too many environments where a single "fix" has been applied and all the other risks ignored. Too many such environments have one "fix" applied in one place, and another "fix" applied elsewhere, which between them make the environment twice as vulnerable because they leave a commonly used escalation path, being probed by script kiddies all the time.

Re:MCSE is not good enough

[bzipitidoo]

Good security takes more than layers. There's an issue of trust.

Been too many incidents of "security" products not being trustworthy. I'm not talking about malware masquerading as security software, I'm taking about actual security products that twisted the meaning of security. They became security for vendors against users, spun as security for users against their own worst natures. You want to be safe from yourself, right? Right. Because users might commit piracy and get themselves in Trouble. I have heard MS has pulled that one at least once, making their Malicious Software Removal Tool also scan for pirate copies of MS products. MS has also been wrong on occasion, making accusations of piracy where there wasn't any.

3rd party security products have trust issues as well. They junk up a user's computer with crapware, and blow the performance hit off as the price of security. Bad enough to have constant scanning slowing things down, but when they push constant advertising as well, they make themselves worse than the malware they claim to protect against.

Re:MCSE is not good enough

[Antique Geekmeister]

> 3rd party security products have trust issues as well. They junk up a user's computer with crapware,

Many do, and it's a very real problem with many security products. I've had good success with Nod32 and Nod64 for Windows. It's relatively ilightweight, more thorough than MSE, and has a proven track record among my colleagues of of not breaking critical applications.

Keep it up to date

[Anonymous Coward]

Install Windows 8.1. Install all Windows updates. Install Classic Shell. Install Avast Antivirus. Install PeerBlock. Install Chrome/Opera/Firefox. Install AdBlock. Install NotScript. Install KeePass. Setup a non admin account. Get a good router and secure it. Setup regular backups to an external drive. Most importantly, teach them not to open random email attachments or download random programs.

Windows 95

[Anonymous Coward]

Install Windows 95 on it as nobody uses it and nobody writes malware for it. Security by obscurity 101

It's hard to say, but... It's not your problem.

[Chelloveck]

"I think my computer has a virus."

"What makes you think that, Dad?"

"Well, it's been running slow lately. And once a website popped up a notice saying it had detected a virus on my machine."

"... It did?"

"Yeah. I downloaded and ran the program it suggested but it seems even worse now."

"You're right, Dad. Your computer has a virus. Better take it to the repair guy."

True story. I love my parents, but they're three hours away by car, I gave up on Windows years ago, and there's no way I can talk them through a de-lousing session over the phone. ("Open the control panel. Go to the start menu... No, the one in the lower-left. Now click on it. LEFT click. Press the button on the left side of the mouse, Dad...") Computer repair shops still exist, or in the worst case they can take it to the Geek Squad who at the very least can re-image the damned thing.

Ditto: with a mac.

[bussdriver]

They tend to last longer too... not sure about newer models but in the past they were better quality and the cost was worth it; but buying used on ebay helped.

Other relatives, it's linux + openbox. which has them still confused for certain things. one jumped ship already and is probably learning more new things with Windows 8 than if she just learned the parts of linux she had trouble with.

WINDOWS 7

[the simurgh]

it looks like vista. it runs better than vista. it's more secure than vista. and if your computer is able to run vista you should be a able to run windows 7. back up her data. tell her that you have to reinstall the operating system. install windows 7 instead. my mother hasn't noticed that i replaced her vista over a year ago despite the load up screen showing it's windows 7. the only thing she has noticed? her computer works better.

Local Group Policy

[chr1st1anSoldier]

Greetings, As someone in the IT industry maybe I can give you some advice.

Since she is on Vista, you might want to look into Local Group Policies.

http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc725970.aspx

You have much finer, granular control over many aspects of Windows through it. It can take some trial and error, but you can setup an environment where only specific applications run and nothing else. Or, you can do things like not allowing application to run from specific locations (E.G. C:\Users\\AppData or C:\Program Data). Doing this can greatly reduce the amount of Malware and Virus infections. You can also prevent changes to things like the Start Menu or task bar, etc. A lot can be done with Local GPOs that doesn't seem widely known to the standard Windows user, but they can really help lock a machine down.

Whitelists

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know about yours but my parents mostly use the same 7 or 8 websites, so I installed Noscript/self destructing cookies etc (firefox addons) and whitelisted the sites they use often, instantly cut the regular cleanup workload by 70-80% for me.

Re:They're dead

[davester666]

No you fool. He's Britt Reid. Obviously.

You can't have your cake and eat it

[Anonymous Coward]

So you needs to choose, either

* Develop a liking for fixing her windoze crap
* Install a GNU/Linux and be done with it

Sad state of affairs

[FlynnMP3]

Depends on the level of hands off administration you want to do.

1) For geeks and mostly computer savvy folks an install of competent Anti-Virus, Firewall, and Anti-Malware Suite and about an hour of teaching them about safe computer usage practices will suffice. The percentage of people this applies to is still quite small.

2) For the non savvy user, the options are somewhat limited. The above will NOT work. It will only make you and them frustrated in the long run.
a) If you have the money and option, go with an iOS device - computer or tablet. This won't completely remove your IT duties for them, but it will drastically lessen them after they get over the initial learning curve.
b) In some cases, installing a distro of Linux will work. This is mainly for users who only want to do email and browser things and are not looking to do anything fancy such videos and social sites. It's not that the various flavors of Linux can't do that stuff, it just requires special attention to get it to work. But usually after it is setup it doesn't need to be messed with.
c) For the most typical case, ie the user who wants to use their existing computer, about the only option left is to quarantine them from the computer configuration. Couple ways to do this: either Virtual machine that restores the startup state on each restart, or a tool like Deep Freeze that effectively whitelists executables on the existing computer and blacklists any configuration/installation changes. For my ailing father, this was the only option, his mind was not up to doing anything else. He just wanted to look at pictures in the computer and a little bit of Internet stuff.

In all cases, a remote administration tool will help out when they have further questions. Team Viewer happens to be my particular poison in this area.

Router with AntiVirus

[onix]

Why not go with a router that does packet inspection for everyone in the household. For computers that do not leave the household, this seems ideal. OpenWRT and DD-WRT provide some options. While Packet Protector issued and EOF in 2012 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PacketProtector), others exist.

Sandboxie (sandbox for anything)

[Anonymous Coward]

Sandboxie - End of story. Everything except the OS runs sandboxed.
http://www.sandboxie.com/

Start a Khan Academy 4 Video Support

[retroworks]

Once it is up and running, I will refer my parents there, thanks in advance.

Free software *before* OS

[gringer]

Always introduce them to free software before the switch to Linux. It's far too much of a change to do both at the same time, and they'll reject the change entirely. Once they get used to free software on Windows, they can use the same things in the same way on Linux.

my suggestions

[RobertLTux]

1 backup the data from the computer and wipe the computer
2 install Win7 (you should be still able to get a LEGIT copy somewhere) DO NOT CONNECT TO THE NET
3 build on your computer a win7 and whichever MSO set of WSUSOffline patches and create a Ninite loader with Firefox/chrome,7zip, LO ,teamviewer ,avast and whatever else you think they will need

4 run WSUSOffline and get the patches done (optional step install MSSE and upgrade MSIE)
5 run the Ninite Loader
6 FOR EACH OF [FIREFOX CHROME MSIE] WHERE INSTALLED =TRUE hit the adblock plus site and get it installed and configured.
7 setup Teamviewer and set a permanent password
8 set like EVERYTHING to auto update and "silent" mode where possible.

My mom runs Linux

[HalAtWork]

Personally, I did switch my mom to Linux. She had no problem adjusting to a Gnome desktop. I put the icons for her favorite apps and the home folder on the desktop and made the desktop folder read-only and there are no problems really.

automatic updates

[Anonymous Coward]

https://ninite.com/updater/
Pretty nice for more or less automatic updates.. well still needs a few clicks.

Carbon Black

[utkonos]

Run Carbon Black on her machine and you'll know absolutely everything that happens on the machine. Combine it with a good antivirus like ESET and you'll at least know definitively when the machine is infected.

Add to this a small server and setup her machine to do diskless network boot, and you're all set. Even if she gets infected, you know exactly what happened and all you need to do to fix it is reboot, and it will pull down a fresh uninfected image and boot that. See the howto here.

Re:Carbon Black

[tibit]

Are you nuts? How can you, with a straight face, recommend a product that you can't fucking buy? There's no "buy now" link on their site. End of story. It's vaporware as far as individual users are concerned. Their sales people would probably laugh you out of the room if you called them up and said "well, I need it for my old mum".

There are two kinds of software: software that you can individually buy by instantly paying online, and software that you can't. The latter usually is a big fucking mess in some way. That's been my experience. The exceptions are few and far between. Usually the reason it's not available for instant purchase is precisely that it's a mess so bad that making it easily available would expose it for the crap it often is.

Re:Carbon Black

[utkonos]

Do you like to read movie reviews by people who have not see the movie they're reviewing? This certainly sounds like what you're doing.

Hard problem...

[bradley13]

This is a really hard situation. Not least because the stress of provided continual tech support for a low-skills user ends up putting a lot of strain on otherwise good family relationships.

My solution, in the end, was to practically force my mother onto an Apple. Apple is a better basis than Windows for users who otherwise muck things up. Also, dunno if this is still available, but at the time the "geniuses" provided her with decent support for a pretty marginal annual fee - relieving me of a lot of the tech-support stuff (why can't I print? I can't get on the Internet! - usually something silly). This was a relief all around.

Failing that, why not Linux. Mint/Cinnamon can be made to look a lot like Windows. Assuming it's an older version of MS-Office, LibreOffice is nearly a plug-in replacement. If Email isn't already in the web, put it there. Browsers are browsers, and no one should be using IE anyway. Set up a Linux machine with three desktop icons: Browser, Email (link) and LibreOffice Writer. Make everything read-only except where documents are saved, uninstall everything else (or at least remove the obvious shortcuts).

Chrome

[TechwoIf]

Get them a chormebook and be done with it. Seriously, they are less the $500 at walmart. Make it a x-mas gift. :-)

Time for *YOU* to parent *THEM*

[Freshly Exhumed]

Inevitably the children must parent their parents, especially as the elders increasingly lose their capabilities in the latter years. Start now by growing a spine and challenging them to get out of the computer dark ages for their own safety's sake. The solutions pitched here so far all deserve scrutiny, but frankly if the lynchpin is that your mother is an MS Office power user (macros, etc.) then you're stuck with the Windows platform so just fork out for a Windows 7 license and hope for the best. OTOH, if you find out that her dependence on MS Office is just psychological, switch her to a tablet or a Linux-based PC solution and be done with it. If she whines, you get to play back all the old tapes she indoctrinated you with during your childhood. Fair is fair. You're doing it for her own good, after all.

Raspberry Pi

[Anonymous Coward]

Set mum up with a Raspberry Pi with a USB Ethernet dongle. Run all traffic through a strong firewall on the Pi. Lock down things like outgoing SMTP and IRC so WHEN mum gets a trojan it at least can't send spam.

Vista is dead.

[Anonymous Coward]

Vista is not loved at all by MS any more. Patch support ended April 10, 2012 (http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows/products/lifecycle).
Continuing to use this is problematic at best. Also, the hardware has to be getting old at this point. At least go to Windows 7.

Have you considered having her play with a Linux live CD, or coughing up one of your older machines from around the house for use as a Linux box? It wil
most certainly be easier to support locallly.

You are the admin

[Anonymous Coward]

Don’t use an insecure environment to begin with. You’re the one who will have to fix it again later.
Install an easy to use GNU distribution. If they don’t like it they should get someone else to install Windows and deal with all the shit.

Buy them a Mac or an iSomething.

[Anonymous Coward]

Buy them a Mac or an iSomething.

Genius bar: support 102

[mveloso]

The great thing about buying Apple is you can always send them to the Apple store for support, once you determine you can't solve the problem via screen sharing.

Re:Genius bar: support 102

[smash]

Yup, that too. But self support is fairly painless as well. It is also pretty impossible to fuck your Mac up by doing a boot-from-internet reinstall and time-capsule restore - there are no drivers to worry about, you need to go out of your way to wipe the disk, etc.

Time machine, for all it's faults (speed mainly) is some of the best software I have ever seen, in 30 years of using computers. It doesn't get in the way, doesn't require un-necessarily complicated set up and just works. It's pretty much seamless, almost "magic" to the end user.

This is a major gap in every other end user OS at the moment in my opinion. Most backup software just plain fucking sucks. Including massively expensive corporate backup software.

Re:It's hard to say, but... It's not your problem.

[Anonymous Coward]

These damn sites are getting very aggressive. I don't ever want to click anything to close, since it may trigger more user activated insanity, but they now block out Ctrl+w, Alt+F4, and force focus on a popup that prevents closing the tab. I've had to shutdown the entire browser to avoid them (sometimes forcefully using the task manager) ... I'm sure there is a way to prevent overriding the keyboard shortcuts, but then sites like google docs would probably break, so I never looked into it further.

For my parents, I showed them how to use puppy linux to copy off their important files and then use the restore CD. I have their most often used apps on a usb stick derived from portableapps.com and I figure if they have to go back and reinstall the proprietary stuff on their own, they may eventually be weeded off of it.

My solution was...

[higuita]

Change to linux!!

Really, windows is just problems, not worthy the trouble.

I migrate my father computer to linux, using Kubuntu.

Before the migration, already changed the email to thunderbird and the office to openoffice (now libreoffice), saving as odt, but teaching to export documents as PDF when sending to others (and solve the .doc/.odt support by others). Média player also setup to VLC and browser firefox.

After more than half year using windows and open applications and solved any difficulty encountered, i finally replaced windows by linux.

In linux, the apps are the same they used in windows, so the migration was easy. I just configured quick-launch icons for the needed apps, associate file extensions to the correct apps (mostly videos to vlc), saved authentications in main sites and main bookmarks in bookmark bar and setup digikam to import the pictures from the camera.

they only had 3 problems: using floppies ( yes, it was some years ago :) ,they didn't umount then all the times... solved by using a sync option for floppies.
Another problem was the .exe files ... most of then are virus, so it IS a good thing they can't execute then. only once it was something useful, so i remotely setup the wine, so they could run the .exe and after that i disabled the wine ( i don't want then executing random things, even on wine).
The final problem was the login page, i was ready to remove it, as they use only one account, but after some days they got used to it and i let it there.

My father uses today linux even better than what he could use windows. My mother only uses the browser on some sites (mostly banking) and have the same difficulties as in windows.

Right now the also have a tablet (BQ edison), that help the quick email check and browsing, making the PC less used.
So migrate to linux if they really need a full PC, install every app they need and configure everything. If not already, replace in windows everything you don't have in linux, to ease the migration (changing less things at same time is always better)
If they don't really need a PC, buy a tablet.

Linux and Crossover Office

[burning_plastic]

I did Linux Mint and MS Office using Crossover as it meant that she could keep using the MS apps, but had a safer stable base to work from.

And - so my littlest sister couldn't keep installing her toolbar / chat app of the week on it - those caused more problems than anything else.

Linux can actually be less complex for her

[Anonymous Coward]

My mother-in-law had Linux (Xubuntu) on her personal computer from day one, luckily. Before that she shared an XP machine with her husband. She's happy with Linux because she's less afraid of doing something wrong and there are way fewer options and those that exist are grouped in a more meaningful way: application type such multimedia, games, etc. rather than company names.

Of course, there's still stuff that only I can fix. Mostly when an update failed or a session wasn't (re)stored properly but I always felt more comfortable that way than supporting XP.

I for one

[fisted]

couldn't be bothered to support them with their Windows crap, so I installed Debian, configured the thing to email me interesting* stuff from the last run's system log on every boot, so I notice if something goes wrong. Didn't happen so far. (*) since it's hard to grep for interesting stuff, instead i cut away the known-noninterestnig stuff (from a file of a-priori known patterns)

MS Security Essentials - Must Try Harder

[Flere Imsaho]

I dunno - AV-Test gave MSSE a "Must try harder" on it's last report card. http://www.av-test.org/en/tests/home-user/windows-7/mayjun-2013/

Not much you can do.

[Anonymous Coward]

I get asked this a lot whenever I fix someones computer. It's hard to deal with.
"Can't I just get an anti-virus program so I never have problems again? I thought I had Norton. Maybe it expired."

Non-technical folk seem to be under the impression that they can pretty much do whatever they want so long as they have an anti-virus software. Unfortunately, in the real world, you actually need to change your own behavior. In the case of having some sort of software that blocks potentially harmful scripts/programs/connections/whatever-else, an unfamiliar user is going to see that as annoying and just disable the whole thing. Worse yet, they still think they are protected and will continue digging into things they should not under those false expectations. Far too many times have I setup a proper security environment on a client's computer only to have them call me back again with problems and they admit they disabled everything because it was preventing them from accessing content they were curious about. Basically, even if your mother knows there is a virus hidden in this mysterious executable that was emailed to her, she really, really wants to see that cute kitten!

So, don't bother. You can try as much as you like to pound these things into their heads, but they will never listen. Get ready to always be there to fix their mistakes.

You can, however, try installing Comodo firewall, enable Firewall, Auto-sandbox, and HIPS. Make sure all the common software that will be used is working properly and not being blocked (probably 90% of it will be automatically detected as safe). It should, then, mostly stay out of the way while blocking unnecessary crap. Also install Malwarebytes, and have them run that any time they experience problems. That usually cleans up most common issues.

Tablet or Chromebook are the best options

[Anonymous Coward]

If they just use the web and play webgames, why keep a computer at all?

We keep a shared guest computer in our home, and we face the same challenges. We don't want guests messing with settings, breaking the software, downloading viruses, etc. We're looking to either get a Chromebook or Android stick that we can just plug into the monitor. Guests just want to surf the web and check email, so why provide anything more than that?

Install Linux Mint 13 LTS...

[jomcty]

Install Linux Mint 13 LTS. For remote administration, install SSH server & x11vnc, and forward SSH port to the LM13 machine. Done! I did this for my Dad and have had no complaints; he has Firefox, Chromium, LibreOffice and his DropBox contents. I log in on occasion and perform an "sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get upgrade" to update his box.

Does she start the reply

[Anonymous Coward]

in the subject line and continue in the body?

Install Windows 7 and Firefox/Chrome. Remove IE

[Animats]

The main thing is to get rid of Internet Explorer, which, on Windows 7, you can do.

If you lock down the browser hard enough, viruses stop being a problem, but some sites don't run. (This is sometimes amusing. I have Abine's Do Not Track Me installed, which blocks almost every tracking thing known, and I have third-party cookies blocked. As a result, if I watch a CBS TV show, I get the same commercials, over and over again.)

Install Secunia PSI

[Anonymous Coward]

Install Secunia PSI to keep "all other stuff" updated.
Upgrade to at least Win7, Vista is too old.
Auto updates from MS
MS free antivirus

Works for wife, old mother in law and old parents.

Just get a tablet and be done with it

[Anonymous Coward]

Jeez people, all the rhetoric about PC's, installing linux, vista, Win7, VM's, anti-virus, yadda-yadda-yadda. It's almost like you guys are doing this simply because you want to feel important in your parent's lives.

Just get them a tablet and be done with it. They can retire whatever clunky (and outdated) PC they are using, and free up that desk space for their family picture frames and cookie jars. Done.

I personally would recommend to them an iPad as the older-generations that asked for my help have been hugely thankful for simplifying their lives. I supposed an Android tablet would suffice since Slashdot is so infested with iHaters, but I'm thinking of the parents and not the "kids" with a chip on their shoulder.

Re:Just get a tablet and be done with it

[Anonymous Coward]

So buying a tablet is going to magically make them immune to any technical problems? Amazing!

Also, knock off the shit about Slashdot being "so infested with iHaters," when a large number of posts in this article have been nothing but iProduct fanboyism endorsements. Strangely enough, those "iHaters," as you've so cutely named them, are mysteriously absent. Perhaps you should consider not being such a hypocrit?

OS X

[Emperor Tiberius]

Seriously. Just get a refurbished iMac and put it in there.

I converted my parents a few years back and was so happy when I could finally stop cleaning up virus and malware laden crap. Even better, when I came to visit, I wasn't scared shitless that there were any key loggers or other unpleasantry installed. Yes, I know OS X isn't malware-proof, but it "feels" less vulnerable than what they had. The OS is set to automatically update along with their apps and everything is automagically backed up with Time Machine. My Dad still likes to play games in Windows; running Boot Camp and Deep Freeze keeps things happy there and when they want to surf, they just boot back into OS X.

Give them a terminal

[nurb432]

No, really. Turn it into a terminal that connects back to something at your place. Then you can manage it for them, like a good child should be doing.

And no, i'm not talking a VT100 as some sort of 'age joke', but a modern graphical desktop type of terminal.

VM on boot

[dave.leigh7335]

I've done the VM on boot idea for a couple of people. Within Linux I put a script that will restore from the latest backup VM on demand. This works extraordinarily well.

Re:It's hard to say, but... It's not your problem.

[xaxa]

My parents are a similar time away (by train). I didn't want them to have Ubuntu forced on them, but after the first lost weekend -- when I was about 19 -- I installed Ubuntu alongside Windows, and set the default to Windows.

The next time it broke, I told my dad how to boot Ubuntu over the phone, and asked if he could manage with that. He could for a while. (I also pointed out that my brother and sister never needed me to fix their computers, so maybe he could ask them to fix his, since they hadn't moved out yet.)

Don't overcomplicate this

[JDG1980]

Securing a system for novice users isn't really that hard. The two most important steps are: (1) make sure they're running as a limited user, and (2) have them run a decent, but lightweight, anti-malware program. You've already indicated that you are doing this. For the user account, I strongly recommend not even giving them the admin password so they won't be tempted (or socially engineered) into using it. You should set up remote access so you can get in if they need help with something that legitimately requires it. For anti-virus, Microsoft Security Essentials works pretty well - it's lightweight and free. Not 100% perfect, but nothing is.

DO NOT install the Java Runtime unless it's absolutely necessary. Having this crap in the browser is the #1 vector of malware infections today! If the user absolutely needs it for one or several specific sites, use a whitelist. (Or, if it's for a non-web application, disable the web plugin using the control panel.)

Watch out for the Adobe junk, too - Flash Player and Adobe Reader are major malware vectors these days. Unfortunately, you can't usually skip Flash and PDF support entirely. Therefore, I suggest having the user use Chrome instead of IE. Chrome has its own version of Flash which is automatically kept up to date. And you don't need Adobe Reader, since there is a built-in PDF viewer in Chrome (which you can also associate with the .pdf file extension if you want). Install Adblock Plus for Chrome for some added peace of mind (not to mention a better browsing experience). Uninstall IE (or at least hide/remove the icon) so the user won't be tempted to run it.

Vista??

[The123king]

Upgrade it to 7 you moron! Hardly any real difference except it's more secure and takes less system resources. And ofc take away admin rights, install chrome/ff etc etc

MS Office?

[Anonymous Coward]

People still use Microsoft Office? I use OpenOffice.org

With lots of duct tape

[msobkow]

To the desk with lots of duct tape so it's harder for anyone to steal the computer.

Plus if you use more duct tape to stop the user from pressing on the keyboard or moving the mouse, it does wonders for preventing "drive by" website infections... :P

That's a hard question.

[eyenot]

It is almost inevitable that I will have to provide them with a Windows machine. The *nix alternative is too weird and too much could go wrong in their hands.

(1) I would lock them out of any significant changes. They would not be capable of getting escalated permission (to install or uninstall software, to use administrative tools, etc.) without a special* password.

(2) * I would come up with some means of rewriting the admin password using PRNG and a given sequence. Each time Admin permission is given for installation of some program or another, it would advance the sequence and re-write the Admin password. I would keep track of how many times this has been done and always know which bunch of pseudo-random characters it is currently. I would probably be on the phone with them for awhile because in some cases you have to escalate two or three times to get something installed or changed.

(3) A sub-Admin account would exist but with severely curtailed privileges. Where "Adminstrator group" permissions are given for services or privileges, I would remove "Administrator group" and replace it with the name of the fully-powered Admin account, and only add the name of the sub-Admin account where it's needed. They would regularly use this sub-Admin account instead of a regular user account. This way they could plug-and-play printers, change windows services (SOME of them) and so on without needing to call me up for the mystery password.

(4) All remote access services would be shut down. They would be entirely on their own, no remote desktop or remote help. If they somehow heard about remote desktop or remote help and wanted to do that, I would tell them too bad, that if they don't want a secure computer we can do a fresh re-install and they can have the complete out of the box experience and damn the torpedoes, but that I would no longer consult with them on that computer. That would change things, if not right away, then certainly when they are swamped with viruses and getting hijacked down the road.

(5) I would demand no outside consultancy, just like I do with any windows box I "secure". If somebody I've helped comes back to me complaining that they went to somebody else and now everything I did was undone again, I cut them loose. There are too many people posing as "computer geeks" who seem to enjoy installing anti-malware that's pure slowdown and kicks and screams to stay on the system, "speed up" and "doctor" apps that are known to be shady, and other massively market-hyped crap. Since insisting on no outside consultancy, I've significantly decreased my stress and workload by ridding myself of chronically repeat clients. In fact, I don't do street computer work any more, at all. It's not worth it. I would be doing my "parents" a serious favor at the cost of a lot of stress and hassle in my life.

(6) I have never been satisfied with the auto-update experience of most applications. I would have to choose software for them that I feel is secure enough not to need updating, and to leave it at that. Windows Update is bad enough, and they are already going to be screaming at me over the phone on those days when there's a serious patch and it's in the news and Microsoft's update service is running slow or haltingly for several days.

Alternately:

I would just install something like SUSE and a virtual machine running their precious Windows. I would get my "parents" a really expensive laptop, two sets of wi fi keyboards and mice, two wi fi monitors, and set them up with SUSE giving them two simultaneous but separate experiences inside their Windows virtual machines. It would take me for fucking ever and would be complicated as shit, and would be really expensive. Then since they would want persistent Windows experiences, Windows itself is still there to be a total complete headache nightmare. So why go the convoluted "matrix reality" style virtual machines in a linux box when they can still screw up their persistent albeit virtual Windows experience? Yes there'd be this nice safe l

migrate to linux

[GarretSidzaka]

Rename the Libre Office icons all to Microsoft Office and GIMP to Photoshop . It worked on my mother in law

replace it

[Tom]

with a Mac or an iPad.

cue the usual "but OS X is just as vulnerable" or "only until market share" bla bla bla trolls in 3... 2... 1...

The simple fact is that a) it works, b) it's available now, not theoretically or with enough work and c) it's supported by other people aside from yourself.

iPad

[mseeger]

I gave my mother an iPad as "additional" device as a present. Soon afterwards, PC useage and resulting problems dropped by 80-90%. Very good investment...

Disclaimer: Not everything is perfect with an iPad for seniors (e.g. maximum font size is still too small, most apps ignore setting anyway). But even with 73 years she took to the device like a duch to water. A 13'' or even 15'' tablet would be a better choice for older people.

Didn't see this mentioned, but it might have been.

[Anonymous Coward]

ZorinOS. It's designed to make it easy for windows users to migrate. Let her try out a live session and see if she'll be okay with it. http://www.zorin-os.com/

Other Department

[SuperKendall]

It's called the Depart of Reality where your mom is not an IT expert and you care enough about her not to give her a platform easily exploited.

Adblock, Web Of Trust, 1 button mouse / AutoHotKey

[toygeek]

Adblock plus to keep the ads out, Web of Trust (mywot.com) to keep them from clicking on garbage, and AutoHotKey to keep them from right clicking when they mean to left click and mess everything up. Old folks lose dexterity in their hands, and don't even realize they're right clicking. I fixed this issue with my Grandfather using AutoHotKey to make right click = left click, and then I mapped the + on his num pad to a right click so that the functionality is still there when needed. I detailed it here:

http://www.tidbitsfortechs.com/2013/10/using-autohotkey-to-assist-the-elderly-disabled-and-more/

Buy a Mac - security in depth

[SuperKendall]

If they can't make do with a tablet (and most parents can), then buy a Mac. You really do not need to run a virus checker all the time. If they use the App Store to by software that cures 99% of possible malware issues. Even if they download applications the default security restrictions are good enough they may not be able to run it without asking whereupon you can advise them if they really should...

But buying a Mac is also the best move for a very good reason; you spend more time with your family instead of with their computers.

Re:Buy a Mac - security in depth

[Anonymous Coward]

If they can't make do with a tablet (and most parents can), then buy a Mac.

That's something I wanted to do, but this is simply too much. First it's a bigger investment, then it looks different, and that really is a problem. At a certain age, which is different for everyone, they simply cannot get used to different icons anymore. So even if that Mac is better in every way, it is not better for them. They should have a computer that they know how to use.

The only thing that bugs me is that MS does not consider keeping the old plain Windows 2000 interface available. The new layout, the new start menu, that's all confusing.

Re:Buy a Mac - security in depth

[smash]

I had similar concerns, bought a mac mini a few years back and have not looked back. I also think you under-estimate your parent's ability to adapt.

KitKat fixes Bluetooth keyboards

[tepples]

Not being able to type on a tablet might have been a problem with the broken Bluetooth keyboard support in Android 4.3, but it's fixed in Android 4.4.

Don't forget the router ...

[BenBoy]

You may want to consider alternative DNS servers like OpenDNS on the router.

If you can't upgrade her to Linux...

[Hymer]

...at least upgrade her to Windows 7.
Better performance, more secure, still supported.

Btw. people are far better in handling/learning new things than they think they are... I've upgraded my father (80+) to OpenSuSE without any problems.

Make it as easy as possible

[prajendran]

Don't expect them to learn Linux now - even if it is a better option. Security Essentials or Avast should help. It would be better to encourage them to use Google Chrome or, better, to use Firefox with NoScript, HTTPSEverywhere, though NoScript can be a bear to learn to use effectively (This, only because of recent concerns about Google's on-off relationship with the idea of having respect for users' privacy). Windows 7 or later should ensure they can quickly give new programs admin permissions if required, even if they are using an account with few privileges.

You should have planned ahead

[Anonymous Coward]

I tried to plan ahead, and that worked out except.... When my parents started to use a computer it was on Windows 98, Eudora for mail MS Office and Firefox. Then I moved them to Windows 2000, then XP, keeping the old layout. When moving to Windows 7 I ditched MS Office for OpenOffice, and they didn't notice. The only thing that confused them a bit was the desktop icon. Then came LibreOffice, and even that worked out. I make a shortcut for Writer on the desktop, rename that to "Word", and that's it.

Eudora was great at the time. I used it myself. Then came Thunderbird, but my mother didn't like the buttons, so I had to move back. Now she complains because of big pictures send by her brother that don't scale down in Eudora.

I'm still very glad I got them to use Firefox instead of IE. With the plugins that's the most important security measure in my opinion. I've set Adblock Plus and I believe Noscript with settings that don't require attention from them. It blocks certain sites, but most normal sites just work.

At first I used Avast, but it became too annoying, and then I got a paid Kaspersky license, which works out fine until now. In the past 15 years they had two viruses that I know of.

Re:They're dead

[hairyfeet]

As a PC shop guy I run into this problem quite a lot and there are actually a few options. You can have a program like Paragon Backup and Recovery Free set to make daily/weekly/whatever disc images and then easily roll it back when they bone it (because if they are like most older folks no matter how many times you tell them "don't click on that" they will) but the problem with those is that you usually have to be the one to roll it back, too complex to restore from disk image for an old person.

So while this way is no longer supported on Win 8 and above (but since Win 8 is a bomb who cares) this is the way that I do it and it gets the "Hairyfeet seal of approval". This method scores damned near a 10 out of 10 in both keeping infections out and in fixing if they manage to bypass your security and infect it anyway. And yes that is a problem, as i have seen older folks actually turn OFF the AV because an email told them to. As a bonus it costs $0.00 and doesn't take more than an hour tops. Ready?

1.- Install Comodo AV Free and be DAMNED SURE to pick YES when it comes to installing Comodo Dragon, the why will be apparent in a moment. You can go ahead and uncheck geek buddy, that is your job, they don't need some guy at a helpdesk in India to tell them what to do. 2.- Go into Comodo AV after install and turn it to "paranoid mode" this will run everything in a sandbox by default and treat everything as suspect. Now for your not completely clueless you can leave it in clean PC mode, but for those that click the "punch the clown and win an iPad" types paranoid is safest. 3.- the final step is to download and install Comodo Time Machine and LOCK the first image, call it "clean PC" or something else that will be easy to tell grandma over the phone. A bit of warning when it comes to CTS, it dos NOT work on win 8, it does NOT work on dual boots, you should also set it to clean out old snapshots after say 30 days. That said if you want a PC that can recover from pretty much every bug out there? here ya go.

And that is it, stick a fork, there is no step 4. Of course this assumes you have already done the common sense things like set windows update to automatic but other than that you should now have a 100% clean PC that will stay that way. The browser is sandboxed and locked down, runs by default in low rights mode, the AV is watching everything like a hawk and if they manage to talk the old folks into bypassing the AV? Time machine has you covered. I have several users that would get more nasties than a Bangkok whore on coupon night and thanks to this little 3 step program their PCs are pretty much idiot proof. Oh and as a bonus if they screw anything up, uninstall a printer driver or just trash a program? it takes less than 10 minutes over the phone to restore with CTS. You tell them reboot, hit home key when they see the big clock, pick the day before (assuming you set it for daily or snapshot on boot) and leave it alone...and that is it, the CTS will set the machine back and it'll be like they never made the boo boo.

Convert to Linux -- Seriously

[Peter Simpson]

There will be some whining, but swap in a new hard drive, keep the old one "in case they want to go back", and set up a VirtualBox Windows environment for iTunes and whatever other "Win-only" software they must have.

You'll both be happier in the long run.

// have done this for friends, and they are still happy 3 years later.

Here's what I did

[cshark]

My father is brilliant, but he's not a computer person. So the last time a virus took out his system, I treated him like any other non technical user on my network. I limited his ability to do damage to himself and others. NT user permissions in Windows 7 are useful for this. You can adjust anyone's group permissions, be they on a single PC or an Active Directory. It's not difficult to learn how to use these things, if you're not a systems administrator; and my dad hasn't had a single problem with viruses since I set it up for him. Remember, when you're running any PC, a virus needs admin permissions to do real damage. Deprive your users of admin rights, and (while you may still have issues with viruses) you're not going to fry your PC.

Re:Here's what I did

[david_thornley]

A virus needs admin permission to do real damage to the OS, or to cover itself up effectively. It does not need admin permission to run as a part of a botnet or hand over all sorts of personal data, or for that matter run ransomware.

Re:They're dead

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm a vampire, and that offends me, you insensitive clod.

Win7 + MSSE has been successful

[Pro923]

I've had significantly less 'support calls' from my parents in recent years. Back in the XP days it seems like they caught a virus every month. So I'm not sure if it's security essentials or Windows 7, but things are much better these days. The worst thing that seems to happen nowadays is that they get tricked into installing some sort of application that it designed to look like it's either virus protection or something to speed them up. They were getting phone calls - the person was trying to get their credit card number out of them by scaring them with nonsense like "our monitoring on your computer is all lit up red...". Anyway, all I have to do these days is occasionally uninstall anything that they got tricked into installing and running through windows update to install non-critical updates. The MOST important thing, I believe, is setting Java and the Adobe products to auto update - as these are components that can allow malware to be installed from just browsing

Re:It's hard to say, but... It's not your problem.

[knarf]

Usually this can be remedied using remote control (VNC et al). If remote control from Windows does not cut it, use remote control from a Linux boot disk/stick - next time you visit your parents bring one and configure the PC to boot from it when present. This gives you full access to the machine. Don't subject your parents to the whims of those 'computer repair shops' unless you know for sure that the shop they'll take it to is legitimate. Yes, it takes some time to help. No, you should not feel the need to do this for all your friends.

This also works for Android devices by the way, handy to know in case they decide to get a tablet and manage to mess that up. Just connect the thing to the PC and access it through adb and/or a remote control program like teamviewer.

My parents live in another country yet I still manage to help them from the midst of the Swedish forests...

Chromebook

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, I know she thinks she wants to stick with Vista and Office. So don't replace her computer, just get her an additional one -- one that is nothing but a web browser, since nearly everything she does is on web sites anyway. Do show her how to use Google Docs on it "for little stuff when it's not worth taking time to use full-blown Office". Show her how it turns on almost instantly, and how light and compact it is.

It won't be long before she doesn't use the Windows computer any more. And when she stops using it, it will stop having maintenance issues.

IE11 beats ffox in any test

[Anonymous Coward]

I have ie11 with all security options enabled and have emet security also. I'd be willing to put this Hercules against anything.

ipad

[Anonymous Coward]

As the others have said, just get an ipad. We got 1 for our grandparents, previously one used a PC sometimes, other scared of PCs and computers. both love the ipad, it has changed their lives for the better.
You can easily these days live without a PC. An ipad is just more stable, faster at "boot up" for rapid browsing, has the wonderfu Facetime, 1m apps, lots more. ..

Run windows 10

[Anonymous Coward]

Dope, upgrade them to Windows 10.x Buy them a mac.

You sure about that?

[Kubla Kahhhn!]

Everything I've learned tells me you're going in the wrong direction. You'll stick them on something that they're going to hate. Get the old folks Macs. Sucks because they're more expensive, but in my experience the technologically challenged should generally be on them.

Go with linux . . .

[Anonymous Coward]

. . . if you want it to seem un-changing.

They are used to vista, but vista won't be around forever. It will be dropped, like they're dropping xp. Now they have windows 8 which looks completely different. With linux, you can keep the same look as long as you want to. Theme some window manager so it looks as vista-ish as possible, leave it at that. You can then maintain a linux system but keep that old-fashioned look forever. I use icewm, so my machines look the same as when I started using linux in 1997. Except for the increase in resolution. Much has improved since those days - but no need to go with a different look & feel unless I want to.

chrome book

[schlachter]

i'd get them a chomebook.
easier to use. minimal risk. minimal cost. simple to replace.

Sandbox the Web broswer

[Anonymous Coward]

It works great to keep the bad web stuff away. the moment you close the broswer it is like it never happened. Best thing i could think of without going to linux or VMing an entire OS.
www.sandboxie.com

Re:They're dead

[colinrichardday]

Who became the lead developer after Bond killed him? And wasn't Zorin more of a hardware guy?

Don't Use Software

[jon3k]

http://www.opendns.com/

I guess I'm lucky.

[Anonymous Coward]

My dad is reasonably tech-savvy, so he doesn't have too many problems.
Even better, my uncle (who is a few years older) is convincing my dad to try out tablets.

I got my mom an iPad

[Anonymous Coward]

Everything she wants to do on the PC can be done on an iPad instead.

Pages and Numbers are outstanding word processor and spreadsheet.

Zero security issues to worry about.

Bluetooth keyboard makes typing easy.

External monitor support with AirPlay lets her mirror her iPad to her TV.

Browser supports HTML5.

Only thing she can't do is Flash, and that's dying anyhow.

I'm dreaming of a Linux Christmas

[EmperorOfCanada]

My mother(88) is using Linux. She has no idea that she is using Linux. My mother in law is getting a chromebook and will have no idea what she is using. Interestingly both of their demands and security are being met quite well. My mother surfs a bit, she watches youtube a bit, but she mostly types documents to print(OpenOffice), and emails on gmail. So Linux is quite nice in that with a tiny bit of security her machine is well locked down from the predations of both the evils of the internet along with the destructiveness of various descendants.

My mother-in-law only gmails and that is it. So a chromebook is perfect. (Tablets are out due to the lack of keyboard or the fiddly keyboards) plus for the same price as an 8 inch tablet she gets an 11.6 inch screen.

But the dealbreaker for linux is often an iPhone. Yes you can hook up an iPhone to Linux but it is a pain in the ass along with things like the backups not being very good at all. iCloud can take care of quite a bit so that is becoming less important.

But for me the best bit with recommending Linux is that even the Raspberry Pi can run a fairly robust Linux. So old crap hardware can meet basic internet needs quite nicely.

But back to the original question. The security of a basic locked down linux set up is fairly good. With windows my problem was fixing all the stupid plugins and downloaders that various people would install. Now they can't install or alter much beyond things like bookmarks.

Mac or Linux

[JoeCommodore]

Mac or Linux - doenst even hae to be a new mac, probbaly be better to run snow leopard or lion over mavericks. Either that or Linux.

Being PC comptible is obvverated in the non-techie/retired generation. Most do email facebooks, some surfing and some light word processing. If they do thier own accounting then it would be the Mac as it has quicken/quickbooks.

But for most folks Linux would do the job. Both OSs are less suceptible to malware and do a great job for the jobs most older gernation would put it to.

Re:Mac or Linux

[vandamme]

Put Zorin on it, and tell them it's a "new kind of windows".

Or get them a Chromebook.

ChromeOS

[rthille]

Let google maintain it for you.

Did any of your read TFS?

[thatkid_2002]

I swear, read the fucking summary before commenting! Changing OS is not an option, changing platform (and therefore "the way the computer is used") is not an option, abandoning MS Office is not an option and OP is not asking for recommendations on an Internet Security package.

(Also, NoScript is really problematic for "normal people", so stop recommending it. AdBlock takes away most nasty things anyway)

Do nothing

[Anonymous Coward]

Have your parents pay some service to clean their pc.

After once or twice horking out 65$ to fix for their stupidity.. maybe they'll listen to the suggestions provided by the place they're paying the fee too.

If not, let them keep burning money.

you forgot more than the new kid ever knew?

[raymorris]

I hear what you're saying. I'm at the age where before long I'll be an old guy. The new kids will probably think I don't know anything about some new thing X, only to find out that I helped write X.

My mother was a pioneer who helped bring major companies into the digital age. She's taught programming, database architecture, etc. and was a top ranking information systems executive for Fortune 100 companies. I learned a lot from her. It would be accurate to say she's forgotten more than most Slashdotters ever knew. That's one reason she calls me for help - because she's forgotten. The other day I mentioned a principle she taught me and she didn't know what I was talking about, having been away from it for 15 years.

The other reason she calls me is because while she could patch a Unix BINARY by manually editing the machine code, Windows 8 is a new, foreign land. She had a Vista machine before this Windows 8 laptop, but she's much more comfortable with Solaris or System 7, or any environment that runs Cobol.

I greatly respect her knowledge and experience, especially her deep understanding of timeless principles. She recognizes that today's systems and today's threats are not the same as the 8080 powered systems she wrote assembler for.

I've been programming interactive web sites since 1997. Recently my wife, who is ten years younger than I, taught me a bit about Facebook.

Each of us has strengths and weaknesses. In general, as we mature we synthesize random knowledge into principles - broadly applicable statements that reflect deeper understanding than feature X and product Y. When we're younger, we're interested in each new version of product Y, the new performance feature and this new security feature.

The foolish young person might think that the "old guy" is out of date. The wise person who has seen some things realizes that the new kid actually DOES have something we could benefit from - the PFY often knows that the virus scanner we've loved for 20 years hasn't kept up, and he knows the new, improved tools.

When I want to know relational calculus or how to bid a job without requirements, I'll ask the old guy. When I want to know how to uninvite someone from a Facebook event, I'll ask that kid over there who is building the Facebook app.

Adblock = Inferior + 'Souled-Out'

[Anonymous Coward]

Hosts do more w/ less (1 file) @ a faster level (ring 0) vs redundant browser addons (slowing up slower ring 3 browsers) via filtering 4 the IP stack (coded in C, loads w/ OS, & 1st net resolver queried w\ 45++ yrs.of optimization):

---

APK Hosts File Engine 9.0++ 32/64-bit:

http://start64.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=5851:apk-hosts-file-engine-64bit-version&catid=26:64bit-security-software&Itemid=74

(Details of hosts' benefits enumerated in link)

Summary:

---

A. ) Hosts do more than AdBlock ("souled-out" 2 Google/Crippled by default) + Ghostery (Advertiser owned) - "Fox guards henhouse", or Request Policy -> http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=4127345&cid=44701775

B. ) Hosts add reliability vs. downed or redirected DNS + secure vs. known malicious domains too -> http://tech.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3985079&cid=44310431 w/ less added "moving parts" complexity + room 4 breakdown,

C. ) Hosts files yield more speed (blocks ads & hardcodes fav sites - faster than remote DNS), security (vs. malicious domains serving mal-content + block spam/phish), reliability (vs. downed or Kaminsky redirect vulnerable DNS, 99% = unpatched vs. it & worst @ ISP level + weak vs FastFlux + DynDNS botnets), & anonymity (vs. dns request logs + DNSBL's).

---

* Addons are more complex + slowup browsers in message passing (use a few concurrently - you'll see) Addons slowdown SLOWER usermode browsers layering on MORE: I work w/ what you have in kernelmode, via hosts ( A tightly integrated PART of the IP stack itself )

APK

P.S.=> For FULLY securing a Windows-NT based OS bearing PC (using CIS Tool) I use the security guide for Windows I authored (& got paid for in 2008 but initially authored in 1997):

http://www.bing.com/search?q=%22HOW+TO+SECURE+Windows+2000%2FXP%22&qs=n&form=QBLH&pq=%22how+to+secure+windows+2000%2Fxp%22&sc=1-31&sp=-1&sk=&cvid=7aede4a8ff4f46e19c0852f67e2ac683

...apk

With respect

[iamacat]

Explain that they have options which are pretty secure, but different from the exact UI they are used to (Chromebook, Windows RT, iOS). Then there is OSX, which does run MS Office and is sort of secure, but still lets you shoot yourself in the foot if you go to some length. Or they can stick with x86 Windows and hope for the best. Then be honest about your own time commitment in fixing any messes.

Then let them make a choice like adults. Hopefully they modeled all of the above steps during your formative years.

Don't give them the administrative password

[Beeftopia]

If a virus cannot get into the Windows registry, it's not going to be able to be a persistent problem. The only way it can get into the registry AFAIK is via administrative prileges (or a privilege escalation exploit). Any simple file downloads will be blocked by the virus scanner. Obviously, keep the computer patched so that privilege escalation exploits are limited.

If a virus does get into the registry, the only way to be sure it's gone is to reset the computer. This pearl of wisdom comes from tedious experience.

Just give them a standard account on the computer, keep the administrator account password to yourself.

Also - it's very helpful to keep their computer behind a router which provides their WiFi. The router gets probed all day long and stays mute, and the nasties never get to strike up a conversation with the operating systems behind it.

Re:It's hard to say, but... It's not your problem.

[Anonymous Coward]

"Well, it's been running slow lately. And once a website popped up a notice saying it had detected a virus on my machine."

"... It did?"

"Yeah. I downloaded and ran the program it suggested but it seems even worse now."

"You're right, Dad. Your computer has a virus. Better take it to the repair guy."

In fact, the one thing a stereotypical senior citizen might benefit from is media education.

MS SteadyState

[Anonymous Coward]

Has no one yet mentioned Steady State? It is meant for places like libraries, whilst not needing a server to manage the clients. It works with Vista, is free and lightweight. I recommend getting it all as clear as you can, take an image (for your own sanity) then use SteadyState to keep it as you need it.
I love Linux, but don't put that on some unsuspecting fool. Anyone who says it's ready for Dora Public to switch out from Windows has something wrong with them.

Re:They're dead

[msim]

Fantastic, That'll be nice and handy for me at least once in the future.

Thankyou.

Did this 6 yrs ago after last virus

[Anonymous Coward]

Mom got hit by a nasty set of targeted viruses about 6 yrs ago via email, then others were loaded. Her PC was unusable until I could visit 2 months later. That taught her how serious the problem was. She was tempted to buy a new PC to "fix" the issue, but I and other family members were able to talk her out of it. She had done that before in the mid-90s and got hit with a minor virus a few weeks after getting a new PC, so she wanted a total fix - one time.

For a few years, I had been swapping commercial software with F/LOSS versions on her system, so when I told her "Linux" was the answer, she was apprehensive, but after the reboot into this strange new OS, she saw all familar programs that she already knew - thunderbird, firefox, openoffice, .... you get the idea.

The first few weeks, she stayed with only those programs. As her comfort levels increased, she wanted to do more and more things, but I didn't let her have admin/sudo rights. That meant I had to setup stuff for her from my remote location. Easy with Linux.

Mom was not a power user for documents. She emailed, surfed, and printed - she printed A-LOT! Her printer was not natively supported by her distro - there was a commercial printing driver for the same price as a new laser printer. The price felt like a robbery, so Mom got a new printer, supported by all distros. I swapped out the starter toner for a 10K pg toner and Mom said it would last longer than she would live. Turned out that was true.
Mom died last July - age 82 - after 10 yrs of heart disease complications.
She was a Linux user to the end and didn't have to be worried about normal security considerations that Windows users fear. She mentioned this to me all the time and she liked that the grandkids could play games on her PC that didn't exist on their home systems. Good for bonding.
Mom never had any security issues after the switch to Linux.

Tighter

[Anonymous Coward]

I secure my parents' PC tighter than a faggot's arsehole.

Windows RT is worth considering

[Anonymous Coward]

Get them a Surface 2 with a Type Cover and move on. Windows RT is far safer for Mom and Pop than any combination of time-wasting maintenance activities on any x86 Windows. If they cannot install apps except from the Windows Store and Microsoft continues to do a good job of curating the submissions there's just no way they can shoot themselves in the foot and install malware accidentally. No value judgements about what's safe to install left in the users' hands. It really is the only way right now to take care of Joe and Jenny Sixpack without spending 10% of your life unsuccessfully preventing and cleaning up malware infections.

I was skeptical about RT's longevity and usefulness but it can change the entire security equation for the vast majority of people who need nothing but a browser, Office, and the built in calendar/contacts/email apps. I'm hardly a Windows fan boy since I make good money getting people out of the jams they get into using Windows as a privileged user without the ability, facts, or time to act on requests for permission to download and install programs/browser extensions. They can learn the basics of interacting with Modern apps in far less time than it would take to teach them enough about Linux. Pretty much the same can be said for using a Mac instead, never mind the Apple tax.

An actual answer to OP's question

[Slatari]

Ok, I'm going to try to try to actually answer OPs question. On Windows 7/Vista, a set-it-and-forget-it configuration that is secure. (I'm not going to give an alternate OS or a setup that will confuse grandma)

Use Chrome Browser. It has its own built-in sandboxing and is generally less prone to viruses than all other browsers. Configure plugins as click-to-play (chrome://chrome/settings/content). Disable all plugins except "Adobe Flash Player", "Chrome PDF Player", and "Google Update" (at chrome://plugins/). Disable Internet Explorer to prevent her from going back to her old ways. Set Chrome as your default PDF viewer.

Install an Anti-virus suite. No, not MSSE. You need more than just anti-virus. She needs a suite like Avast, AVG, or ESET. You need something that scans web sites, scans email, checks if software is up-to-date, and sandboxes scary downloads. Personally, I like Avast. If you use Avast, configure all the non-critical popups to only last 1 second, and turn off all non-critical sounds. It's free, but the Pro version is slightly better.

Set windows to "Always notify" on system changes. Viruses have gotten around Windows security to install into the system.

Set up a Standard User for her, rather than the default Administrative User that Windows defaults to. This will prevent viruses from installing into the system. It will also prevent her from installing system applications. She'll still be able to install some user-level applications, however.

Install Dropbox and tell her to always save her documents in the Dropbox folder. So, if the worst happens, she won't lose her work files. Dropbox also has a versioning feature, so she can recover old copies of files (in case of something like CryptoLocker).

Install BufferZone Pro. This will automatically sandbox Internet applications, like Outlook, Skype, etc. I like to exclude CHROME.EXE as Chrome has it's own sandbox.

End of life planning

[Anonymous Coward]

she struggles with change and wants to stay with Vista

Hopefully she plans on dying in about three years. Vista is EOL in April 2017. And mainline support has already ended (she probably prefers the no-new-features angle).

Ubuntu Install CD will fix your mom's PC

[billstewart]

OK, I haven't actually taken this approach with either my parents or my wife's mom :-) My parents bought a Mac back in ~1987, and continued to upgrade Macs occasionally. My mom's Mac is currently secured by the fact that it's a Mac, and she only uses dial-up internet because that's good enough for email and she doesn't see well enough to use the web unless she really needs to. (And my siblings all grumble about not having decent internet access when we visit, but she really doesn't want to bother upgrading, even though she did finally get cable TV when the digital transition broke her ability to receive the PBS station she likes via broadcast.)

We got my wife's mom a generic Windows PC when she retired, with AOL. It let her chat with her friends, keep up on the celebrity news, and generally stay connected to the world when she was getting less mobile. "Computer security" for her system meant occasionally formatting the disk, reinstalling Windows from scratch, reinstalling a new free AOL coaster, and having her log in to AOL, because she kept everything she cared about in the cloud rather than on her PC.

Re:They're dead

[hairyfeet]

You are most welcome and if you haven't heard of them before let old Hairy turn you on to a couple of other "shop guy tricks", specifically WSUS Offline and Ninite.

These two little life savers can take the time from starting a windows install to finished and ready to go from several hours to less than an hour and a half. You use WSUS Offline to download all the updates, service packs, as well as DirectX,IE, and .NET updates and then just slap that sucker onto a USB drive (or in the case of the shop a share drive on the LAN) and let it go, takes all the hassle out of taking a Windows system from fresh install to ready to go. Works on XP- Win 8.1 so it doesn't matter which one you are using either.

And Ninite? Ohhh you are gonna love Ninite, he is the PC fixit guy's best buddy. With ninite all your major third party software is taken care of, you've got browsers and codecs and media players and antivirus and IMs and pretty much all of the stuff your average person wants, with Ninite you just check the boxes and go. oh and NO TOOLBARS, no extras, none of the crap that so many programs drag along these days, just a clean unattended install of the latest version of whatever you picked. As an added bonus if you need to update and aren't sure if your software is out of date? just check the boxes and run it, Ninite will only install if you have the older version.

So there ya have it, with that and the little 3 step I posted earlier you can take a PC from bare metal to grandma proof in no time flat, enjoy!

Mac mini

[dr_blurb]

Got my parents a Mac mini years ago, never looked back :)

Re:They're dead

[atlasdropperofworlds]

If it's a Win7+ machine, the built-in backup solution works just fine. It's also simple in case you don't have/want to use the software to restore: Files are in zip archives, the system image is a vhd which can be booted in a virtual - you can actually "test" your backup images by booting them in microsoft's virtualization software. It rolls over for hdd space and all, and run effectively maintenance free (in fact, don't touch it). I can't remember if vista had a built-in backup solution.

Configure software restriction policies

[mysidia]

Take a look at this article

basically, set software restriction policies such as PATH RULE
C:\Users\ DISALLOW

Or better yet, set to DISALLOW by default. And whitelist specific system directories, including the default allowed directories.

Only allow installed software to run, and software in C:\Windows c:\program files c:\program files (x86) etc.

And perhaps some temporary directories

For web browsers such as Chrome, I suggest you should use "Chrome for business" installed globally, instead of installed in the individual user's directory.

You may need to allow some programs to execute from some temporary directories of the user profile to allow automatic updates running as the user instead of admin.

Switching

[Mike Frett]

My mother is 60 years old, I switched my family to Xubuntu a few months after I switched in October 2012. To say that older people are set in their ways and would much rather use Windows is silly. My family used Windows as long as I have, about 15 years, and didn't have a problem adjusting. In fact, once 7 hit the market with the new taskbar and the 8 with it's radical changes; you're going to have to learn a new OS anyway so why not go to one that's more secure and doesn't suffer all the flaws that Windows has. Not to mention my family doesn't have to go through the hassle of installing drivers on Linux, it's truly Plug and Play.

Fact of the matter is this: My 60 year old computer illiterate mother, two brothers, my 59 year old friend across town and myself have no issues using Linux. If you do, you're doing it wrong.

DeepFreeze

[Anonymous Coward]

DeepFreeze is great if you can baseline the system with a safe config.

http://www.faronics.com/products/deep-freeze/

Ad Block

[ChristopherJoseph]

Install Ad Block. I'm sure a lot of the crapware comes from sponsored ads. If they don't appear she can't click them.

Re:They're dead

[Anonymous Coward]

Well now you have definitely given me an idea ... lol :>

Citrix?

[gelfling]

Or some kind of VM genn'd off a server image and transported to a thin client.

AdBlock = Inferior + 'Souled-Out'

[Anonymous Coward]

Hosts do more w/ less (1 file) @ a faster level (ring 0) vs redundant browser addons (slowing up slower ring 3 browsers) via filtering 4 the IP stack (coded in C, loads w/ OS, & 1st net resolver queried w\ 45++ yrs.of optimization):

---

APK Hosts File Engine 9.0++ 32/64-bit:

http://start64.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=5851:apk-hosts-file-engine-64bit-version&catid=26:64bit-security-software&Itemid=74

(Details of hosts' benefits enumerated in link)

Summary:

---

A. ) Hosts do more than AdBlock ("souled-out" 2 Google/Crippled by default) + Ghostery (Advertiser owned) - "Fox guards henhouse", or Request Policy -> http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=4127345&cid=44701775

B. ) Hosts add reliability vs. downed or redirected DNS + secure vs. known malicious domains too -> http://tech.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3985079&cid=44310431 w/ less added "moving parts" complexity + room 4 breakdown,

C. ) Hosts files yield more speed (blocks ads & hardcodes fav sites - faster than remote DNS), security (vs. malicious domains serving mal-content + block spam/phish), reliability (vs. downed or Kaminsky redirect vulnerable DNS, 99% = unpatched vs. it & worst @ ISP level + weak vs FastFlux + DynDNS botnets), & anonymity (vs. dns request logs + DNSBL's).

---

* Addons are more complex + slowup browsers in message passing (use a few concurrently - you'll see) Addons slowdown SLOWER usermode browsers layering on MORE: I work w/ what you have in kernelmode, via hosts ( A tightly integrated PART of the IP stack itself )

APK

P.S.=> For FULLY securing a Windows-NT based OS bearing PC (using CIS Tool) I use the security guide for Windows I authored (& got paid for in 2008 but initially authored in 1997):

http://www.bing.com/search?q=%22HOW+TO+SECURE+Windows+2000%2FXP%22&qs=n&form=QBLH&pq=%22how+to+secure+windows+2000%2Fxp%22&sc=1-31&sp=-1&sk=&cvid=7aede4a8ff4f46e19c0852f67e2ac683

...apk

Re:They're dead

[Anonymous Coward]

Man, your ego is ridiculous. Everyone knows of these tools and substantially better ways to perform what you're trying to accomplish.

Just update your OS install media to include the WSUS items. No dumb separate key, no separate install process. Use a PXE boot installer if you're installing in house.

What decade are you stuck in that you'd want codecs? Let me guess you're one of those 'media player classic for life' guys? Please...

This is teen level desktop stuff here.

Let Vista Die Peacefully

[Anonymous Coward]

At the very least you should get rid of vista and put 7 on instead.

Make an image of the HD and have all data stored on a seperate drive so when you re-image the machine so it runs right after things get deleted or it is filled with viruses it is quicker for you.

Word to the wise from someone that has Been There Done That

finally we got to

[ILongForDarkness]

computer security ... in bed, meme :)

I agree the stereotype is dated. Most people started getting home computers in the 80's. If you were a teen then you'd now be in your mid to late 40's. You'll probably know more about hardware than most people that are younger and almost certainly more than the "javascript weenies" that just hunt down an existing script and plug it into something.

Next up the OP's question: it is broken they want security but they want to stay with an obsolete OS: not going to happen. You don't have to like change but if you don't change you'll be using something that is easily exploitable.Chances are fairly good that these Office and browser type computer users would be completely fine on the latest windows/mac/linux offering. The browser will be the same or close enough and unless they are power users of office the basic type an invoice functionality isn't affected by the "new" Office ribbon to any meaningful extent. Probably 90% of users of Office could get away with a free offering (the remaining 10% are writing macros/using plugins someone else has made that they need/already know how to do in VBA).

Re:They're dead

[synapse7]

Install a router, or something running something like tomato, that can run a composite block-list that is automatically updated. Sure they could still screw up settings and maybe install something they don't want, but this makes it nearly impossible to get anything malicious and resolves 80% of the problem.

Re:They're dead

[Anonymous Coward]

Thanks for that insightful HOWTO!

Don't let her install anything

[Kimomaru]

I wish I were exagerating, but Windows PC builds that don't allow installs last a lot longer than those that do. Install the basics like Flash and Java (although, don't install Java unless she really needs it. Avoid if you can). After that, lock it down so that her account can't install anything. Also, hide the Internet Explorer Icon and have her use Firefox.

what

[Anonymous Coward]

I once tried to uninstall Norton. In the end, after 12 hours battle, I decided to reinstall Windows.

Just keep plugging away

[Urza9814]

Well...what is going wrong? Anything? Are you sure it's worth the effort?

My parents are still using the same ancient Dell laptop they bought when my brother and I were still in highschool (I graduated college two years ago; he's now working on his PhD). It's unpatched Windows XP, and the only real security software on there is Avast! free antivirus. Other than re-registering Avast! every couple months when I'm home, I have never had to touch that system. And now they're mostly switching over to tablets and such.

Are your parents REALLY doing anything so risky that they need such a high level of protection? For casual browsing and such you really shouldn't need any more than a decent anti-virus tool. If they need more, find and plug the holes and move on.

Hell my parents don't even get backups -- because frankly, anything essential is already "in the cloud." Should there be some catastrophe I can't recover from (which has never occurred), the worst-case is I restore from the backup I took last time I had their computer (months ago) and tell my dad I lost part of his music collection (most of which he isn't even aware he has -- it's a few hundred gigs at this point). Everything truly critical they have on there is based on some sort of online service, so it's all safely "in the cloud" where I don't have to deal with it.

Although I will say one of the best things I ever did was move my mom from directly accessing her Comcast email through Outlook to placing gmail in there as a middle-man. She still uses the Comcast address, but her now multiple devices stay in sync, and in an emergency I can help her login to the web interface from anywhere.

Hosts fix DNS (B) & Adblock = inferior (A)

[Anonymous Coward]

Hosts do more w/ less (1 file) @ a faster level (ring 0) vs redundant browser addons (slowing up slower ring 3 browsers) via filtering 4 the IP stack (coded in C, loads w/ OS, & 1st net resolver queried w\ 45++ yrs.of optimization):

---

APK Hosts File Engine 9.0++ 32/64-bit:

http://start64.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=5851:apk-hosts-file-engine-64bit-version&catid=26:64bit-security-software&Itemid=74

(Details of hosts' benefits enumerated in link)

Summary:

---

A. ) Hosts do more than AdBlock ("souled-out" 2 Google/Crippled by default) + Ghostery (Advertiser owned) - "Fox guards henhouse", or Request Policy -> http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=4127345&cid=44701775

B. ) Hosts add reliability vs. downed or redirected DNS + secure vs. known malicious domains too -> http://tech.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3985079&cid=44310431 w/ less added "moving parts" complexity + room 4 breakdown,

C. ) Hosts files yield more speed (blocks ads & hardcodes fav sites - faster than remote DNS), security (vs. malicious domains serving mal-content + block spam/phish), reliability (vs. downed or Kaminsky redirect vulnerable DNS, 99% = unpatched vs. it & worst @ ISP level + weak vs FastFlux + DynDNS botnets), & anonymity (vs. dns request logs + DNSBL's).

---

* Addons are more complex + slowup browsers in message passing (use a few concurrently - you'll see) Addons slowdown SLOWER usermode browsers layering on MORE: I work w/ what you have in kernelmode, via hosts ( A tightly integrated PART of the IP stack itself )

APK

P.S.=> For FULLY securing a Windows-NT based OS bearing PC (using CIS Tool) I use the security guide for Windows I authored (& got paid for in 2008 but initially authored in 1997):

http://www.bing.com/search?q=%22HOW+TO+SECURE+Windows+2000%2FXP%22&qs=n&form=QBLH&pq=%22how+to+secure+windows+2000%2Fxp%22&sc=1-31&sp=-1&sk=&cvid=7aede4a8ff4f46e19c0852f67e2ac683

...apk

linux box for banking

[cathector]

i know the OP posited windows as a requirement,
but there's also a hybrid approach.

my primary goal was to protect my mom from serious financial fraud - ie bank account stuff.

mom uses windows for photoshop & other SW that won't go on a tablet,
and also makes heavy use of some windows-only apps which keep her away from OSX.

so, i got her a tiny HP laptop and put Linux (mint) on it,
with the strict instructions that all banking is done on the Linux machine,
and *only* banking is done on the Linux machine. no shopping, no surfing.

shopping i figure is fine on the windows machine: the credit card is secured against fraud,
and shopping itself is risk enough that it doesn't belong on the banking machine.

I suspect she's not actually following this advice, because she hasn't asked for help w/ the Linux box,
but that's probably also a failing on my part for not following up.

4 Essential Programs for Securing the Non-techie

[Jpoint]

BitDefender Free - Automated, quiet, self-maintaining, and much better detection stats than MS Security Essentials - switch today

Malwarebytes Antimalware Pro - One time fee, adds even better protection for people likely to click on malicious links

Secunia PSI - Automatically updates software with vulnerabilities without user interaction - the most often missed crucial piece in a secure PC. Old Flash and Java installs make giving your parents' non-admin accounts pointless - malware will just use those to elevate privilege. PSI will keep everything up to date, without anyone having to do anything manually.

CrashPlan - Install it and point it at your computer. After the one-time setup, all your parents' data will be backed up to your PC. Off-site, automated backup for free. Far superior to a simple backup external drive that is vulnerable to malware running on their system.

Long ago got my mother on Mac OS X

[Anonymous Coward]

She's pretty much self-supporting as a result.

No, No, Yes, Yes

[Anonymous Coward]

No Anti-Virus
No "Internet Security" software
Yes = Firefox + Adblock
Yes = Setup GMail accounts for my parents to use

My Dad is a retired electrical engineer and my Mom still runs a computer lab at my old Elementary school so they are both computer savvy to the extent they know not to open attachments from sketchy emails. They keep backups on an external hard drive and occasionally archive stuff to CD for long term storage. All they really use the Internet for is visiting the AARP website and send/receive email. They don't do any shopping or banking online as they don't trust giving their credit card info to anyone and insist on paying all bills with a check.

kiosk mode

[freshmeathead]

Setup the PC to save personal data to a separate volume, and boot the pc up into the same 'clean' image every time. That way, they can screw it up all they like, but on reboot, it is back to normal.

Mac FTW.

[Anonymous Coward]

I bought my inlaws a used Mac Mini (intel) a few years ago when they started to get malware all the time. The only call I've had since is when the power cord accidentally came out once.

At my home we run Windows. I use free Avast, Spybot S&D, and I set up an account on OpenDNS as well. This seems to cover all my home users, and the kids go to some pretty dodgy places.

The only absolute

[Anonymous Coward]

Turn the PC off, then unplug. Not very functional, but quite secure.

Backup + I don't secure it

[Anonymous Coward]

I gave up "securing" years ago. The only sofware they use are MS Office and Firefox . So, CrashPlan to back everything up continuously without user intervention, Microsoft Security Essentials because it is good enough and no nag screens, and then Windows Update set to automatic. If there is a problem, they put in the usb key I made with an autonated install, then reinstall crashplan and Bob's your uncle. Since I set that up, very rarely do I get support calls.

Online backuo + I don't

[Anonymous Coward]

I stopped "securing" years ago. The only non-builtin software they use is Office and Firefox, So, Crashplan to backup continuously without user intervention, Microsoft Security Essentials because it is ok and has no nag screens. and Windws Update set to automatic. If there is a problem, they boot from the automated Windows install USB key I made for them, reinstall Crashplan to restore the backup and Bob's your uncle. I set that up about 2 years ago and it has been smooth sailing since then with almost no support calls.

Re:They're dead

[cboslin]

My thoughts exactly, DD-WRT, OpenWRT, or Tomato firmware running on a supported firewall/router and most issues are non-issues. Great post.

Bogus downmod = "best ya got"? LOL!

[Anonymous Coward]

You can't technically validly disprove my points on hosts giving users of custom hosts files more:

1.) Speed
2.) Security
3.) Reliability
4.) & even Anonymity

+ more online...

* To the downmodding weasel specifically - YOU FAIL - You know it, I KNOW IT, & anyone else reading with 1/2 a brain does also!

---

(LMAO - You're only making me STRONGER each time you do one of these unjustified downmods - Thank-You & yes, seriously - Especially since others see that's "the best you got" (& nothing more... lol!))!

---

Thus the downmods with NO VALID REASONS WHY = useless weasel tactics - nothing more: Especially when the downmodding weasel's NOT disproving my points for technical inaccuracy on MY part since my points on hosts ARE 100% valid + accurate (for giving users more speed, security, reliability + even anonymity (to an extent only on the latter)).

APK

P.S.=> BOTTOM-LINE RESULT = The cowardly little weasel downmodder KNOWS it too, hence his running from my challenge he disprove my points in favor of hosts since he "hit & run" downmods & outright RUNS AWAY when I challenge him to validly disprove my points in favor of hosts files for end users of them instead - since he KNOWS his bogus downmods to *try* to vainly "hide" my posts on hosts only prove my points all the more (& doesn't hide a thing - others see it considering MOST here surf well below the default moderation threshold))

... apk

Re:They're dead

[hairyfeet]

Block lists are like blacklists dude, they just don't work. Too many legit sites get pwned every single day for block lists to be useful for anything except maybe making file sharers feel safer (protip:they aren't) by blocking known trolls like mediadefender.

It may help keep grandpa off porn sites but for actual security? Like i told APK with the HOSTS files its just not able to keep up with the thousands of new threats coming daily. With my method the system is running in low rights modes with default deny, a MUCH safer way to access the net IMHO.

Re:They're dead

[synapse7]

Not using hosts, dns poisoning. They work, with pr0n and all.

Re:It's hard to say, but... It's not your problem.

[Anonymous Coward]

Geek Squad who at the very least can re-image the damned thing.

you put a lot of faith in the fuckups at best buy .. the only thing they're trained to do is upsell and overcharge, everything else is hit-or-miss, and likely won't be done properly.

Re:They're dead

[Anonymous Coward]

I setup a caching proxy server at my shop. It increases download speed when accessing often requested resources like updates and installers, and frees up bandwidth for other things. Our cache rate seems to hover around 30-60%, and objects fetched from the cache max out the throughput of the LAN instead of downloading at the agonizingly slow 6 mbps our ISP provides,

Re:They're dead

[hairyfeet]

Its still the same principle dude, a list maintained by some guy/s somewhere that is supposed to magically keep up with the 10,000+ websites pwned every single day and as I pointed out to the Linux "Just give us the source and we'll maintain it" the math just doesn't work. You've got MAYBE 50 guys working on that DNS list, you have several BILLION websites, and you have legitimate websites getting pwned all the time. in just the past few months we've seen everyone from wordpress to Google serve malware and you HONESTLY think that a text file is gonna save you?

You might as tape a rabbit's foot to the router for all the good you are doing, magical thinking just doesn't work. if it did? You'd see routers sold by default with easy to switch blocklists. the reason they don't is because you end up blocking legit sites that have been cleaned while letting in sites that have been freshly pwned, the math just isn't on your side, like blacklists you are playing an arms race with the world and you WILL lose, the only question is how long it takes.

Bogus downmods don't hide truth

[Anonymous Coward]

And the truth is that a hardcoded favorite site in hosts overcomes dns redirect issues... period.

APK

P.S.=> So all the technically unjustifiable downmods you apply to my posts on hosts (yet not disproving points about them I make where hosts gives end-users of them more speed, security, reliability, & even anonymity)? Useless... & you know it! apk

Re:It's hard to say, but... It's not your problem.

[Anonymous Coward]

Simple fix to help Dad when distance is an issue:

Put "TeamViewer" (or similar, but it is parent proof) on his machine and then simply fix the issues for him.

Problem solved. :)

seriously just give them linux

[Anonymous Coward]

ultimate edition 3.7 works great for my mum although the default rekonq browser leaves a lot to be desired (comes with plenty of other browsers)

xubuntu worked great for a few months prior and before that we played around with puppy slacko

within windows xp, 7 and various form factors coming into the mix the switch to linux was well recieved atlthough for a while she was unable to upload photos to trademe.co.nz because the webuploader would not identify uppercase *.JPG files

all in all none of the half dozen or so people who use her computer on a weekly basis have any problems with it.

its a web browser, handles images, does youtube. etc...

all the stuff you talk about needing on windows sounds like a crazy amount of complication compared to a simple UI change.