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Quebec Language Police Target Store Owner's Facebook Page
New submitter wassomeyob writes "In Canada, the province of Quebec has their Official Language Act of 1974 (aka Bill 22) which makes French their sole official language. It has famously been used to force business owners to modify signage to give French pre-eminance over other languages. Now, the Quebec language police seem to be extending their reach to Facebook. Eva Cooper owns Delilah in the Parc — a shop in Chelsea, Quebec near the Quebec/Ontario border. She received a letter from the language office telling her to translate everything posted on her store's Facebook page into French."
France is obsolete today. Face this and get over it. Idiots.
"Language Police"
Anything after that is kind of irrelevant.
Ok, its a stupid law, and I'm not going to defend it.
But if the Quebec based store is maintaining a website, it needs to have a french translation, and a company's facebook page is little different than a geocities site from 1998, and is just another form of advertising for the company so this is entirely consistent with how the law has been enforced in the past.
Now if only we can get all those Mexicans to speak Murican!
She should be made to translate everything into French, learn to enjoy champagne, smelly cheese and foie gras.
On a side note, any language that cannot survive without being enforced legally should be allowed to diminish naturally.
What's next? forcing women not to shave their armpits?
Quebec has some bizarre sensibilities, they're definitely not into this whole people-can-decide-what's-best-for-themselves crap. If you think that's bad, you should see their tax rate - believe it or not, taxes go to supporting these bizarre laws. Anyone under the age of 30 who wants to make a life for themselves, in my oppinion, should live anywhere else in Canada.
I live in Québec and because of those law I can't purchase product from the local store because the box is not en French. It happend to me last year where I purchase some headphone (nothing fancy there were even NO paper in the box to explain how to plug it). But since the box wasn't available in French, Best-buy would not have the product, online I could see it but they would refuse to sell it to me if my address was in Québec. So I've went to competitor in Vancouver that is not affected by Québec law and purchase it. Result? The law has remove a sale from my local store and move that else where.
In the late 90s, I worked at an internet software company in Quebec - we developed software for servers and sold it over the internet. No boxed copies, but your standard suite of services - a knowledge base, online documentation, phone and email access to sales and support staff, all of which was based in the province of Quebec.
Eventually, we got big enough to be noticed by the Quebec language police. They sent a letter, and then there were phone calls. They provided us with a list of requirements - you must answer your phones in French first, your web site must have all content that is available in English available in French as well, and so on.
We started costing out the implications of this, especially the confusion of the majority of our international (as in, American) clients. Then someone asked the important question - what happens if we don't comply?
"Well, you won't be allowed to sell to anyone in Quebec!" came the indignant response.
From then on, I took so much pleasure in informing the our small number of Quebec government clients that no, they would no longer be able to buy upgrades, tech support contracts, or anything else. The 98% of our out-of-province sales were unaffected.
Unfortunately, it sounds like Eva runs a brick-and-mortar store, so will need to comply or face actual fines.
Imagine you are somewhere in the USA and someone telling you go fuck yourself and speak Spanish. How are you feeling ?
Almost every state have law to protect their culture, Quebec is not different than Florida.
Remember, even if people in Quebec are 75% speaking Québécois, some racist people don't want the business of these people,
But, then Québec, is the only place in the world where people speak Québécois and the only agnostic country/region in the wolrd (the only place in the wolrd where a real separation between state and church really exist).
These people have to protect their cultural heritage.
And Facebook is just another form of advertisement and public image.
Ceci n'est pas une Signature !
Why not translate it into a useful language, like Klingon?
Who did what now?
The Chrome browser offers to translate whatever website's text into whichever language my operating system defaults to.
If all of the common web browsers / smart phones / google glass equivalents start doing this, I guess there will be no more need for this mandatory translation at the source side of things.
Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?
She should have an English page and then a French page on which all the prices are elevated slightly. When asked why there's a difference, she can say it costs more to translate and host more content, thereby increasing her cost of doing business.
Gotta get me one of these!
Why wouldn't I think I have that right?
In the US at least it's a pretty common tradition for immigrants not to learn the local language. My Great Grandparents never really learned English, as it wasn't so useful in Little Italy, the Polish neighborhoods were similar too.
The attempts to mandate language use in the US are gross, and countries/provinces that do it already are being ridiculous. If your official language doesn't have value to the people that live there, perhaps the problem is not with the transplants.
Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
Canada is a democracy. They make their own laws and govern themselves. It is none of my business as an American what they decide to do inside their own borders any more than it's my business what happens in the privacy of my neighbor own home as long as it stays inside their home. Privacy, mmmmkay?
Proof that pride is indeed a terrible sin, even if you aren't religious. This attitude is almost as archaic and nasty as people who still insist on interpreting the Book of Genesis literally. Get with the times guys. You're leaving yourselves behind, and looking like infants in the process. Nobody wants to join a culture that nasty, so you're only dooming it to an eventual extinction your own way.
Especially Scott. He's a real dick.
SJW's don't eliminate discrimination. They just expropriate it for themselves.
Besides the drive from Toronto to Halifax being that much quicker, you can reign over something like facebook.que instead and leave .ca to real Canadians.
we all know english people won't make any efforts to learn french even if the live in france directly
A shit-ton of French students in high schools and colleges across the U.S. would beg to differ, Monsieur.
SJW's don't eliminate discrimination. They just expropriate it for themselves.
Va chier connard.
Quebec isn't a country. French or otherwise.
How do you translate "fuck you" into French?
I'm a native Quebecers and I speak french, but who care if she have a Facebook page only in english? As far as i'm concerned if she pay her taxes it's all I care about.
If I start a business and create a website in portuguese and all my signage is in portuguese maybe I will go out of business and it will be just my fault.
OQLF is a waste of taxpayers money and another thing that make this province so miserable.
We want a charter to remove rights, we have a language police, others province pay for our social politics. We are a looser province, the Quebec Government want the Quebecers to be looser and ignorant because when a nation is ignorant you can control them far easily and in bonus if you can prevent them speaking another language you can prevent the ignorant french Quebecers to move in another province.
To extend this, I've known plenty of people who have lived in Asian countries (for at least a few years) but never really picked up the language. It's one of the advantages of being a native English speaker... you can go almost anywhere on Earth and find people that know enough English for you to live day-to-day life. The only things you really need to pick up are words and phrases with no direct translation.
http://www.languagepolicy.net/...
read pass the first page, you will get a lot of information about language laws in the USA and you will stop looking like a idiot.
Ceci n'est pas une Signature !
Never mind the argument . . . I give up.
How fucked up has the world become where everyone gets to decide what a store owner "needs to" do but the store owner.
Oh you mean we shouldn't require people to keep their storefront clear of trash? We shouldn't require them to pay their employees? How about we let them dump hazardous chemicals wherever they want? Look, this language law is stupid both morally and economically but let's not expand the stupidity by claiming that every requirement a business is subjected to is dumb. Some are very good ideas and others not so much. This language law falls into the not so much category.
What I'm confused by is why both France and Quebec are so damn defensive about their language. It's not anything special.
like if you forbid a store owner of kosher food having a sign in Hebrew, or one store owner of halal food having a sign in arabic...
Facebook is an American storefront, not a Quebec one. I did not read the article but this seems very wrong indeed.
---Up Up Down Down Left Right Left Right B A START
"Au Canada, la province de Québec a sa Loi sur les langues officielles de 1974 (aka projet de loi 22) qui fait du français la seule langue officielle. Elle a notoirement été utilisé pour forcer les propriétaires d'entreprises à modifier la signalisation de donner pré-eminance français sur les autres langues. maintenant, la police de la langue du Québec semblent être d'étendre leur portée à Facebook Eva Cooper possède Delilah dans le Parc -.. une boutique à Chelsea, Québec, près de la frontière Québec / Ontario Elle a reçu une lettre du bureau de la langue en lui disant de tout traduire affiché sur la page Facebook de son magasin en français ".
Jésus H. Christ, l'homme. Si la Sûreté du Québec nous bien pour ce que nous pourrions ne pas être en mesure de payer la conversion de bêta!
If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
Unfortunately the Québécois don't understand that Quebec is a province of Canada and act as if Quebec IS part of France and DEMAND they be treated as such. They are ignorant tools and need to be treated as such.
Vive Jay Sherman. Vive Quebec
I'd encourage you to bring this matter to the public eye. Specifically, in French. That it is stiffling local business, should be a concern. That the police are treating it with enough importance as to attack someones Facebook page, is also a bit disturbing. I can see their justification for not wanting 'English' to take over, but legislating over it, making it mandatory, is rather myopic in the scheme of things. It's probably a safe guess this was passed initially out of fear, rather than heritage.
Of course, I'd also like to see them 'force' this in a court of law. What you can and can't do online, as opposed to a physical location area, are 2 different arenas, and the court should acknowledge that fact.
Meanwhile, in other parts of Canada, people come here and talk Tagalog (Philippines), Chinese, Korean, Hindi, Farsi, German, Ukranian, Polish, Spanish, Cree, Blackfoot, even English. We try to accommodate people and welcome new people. I personally love Thai, Vietnamese and Mexican food. If a Chinese restaurant wants a big sign in Chinese, I welcome the big Chinese sign. Poor Quebec: Insular, Inbred. Under the impish belief that their culture is superior to all others, they are stupid enough to try and enforce it by law. Others are cosmopolitan. They are insular, unrefined, parochial. Perhaps they don't even realise how stupid they look to the rest of the world.
Fuck you and fuck quebec. I would not shed a tear if quebec was bombed off the face of the earth.
Said every other person in Canada. No one wants Quebec.
Too many people equate "The Law" with morality and consider it a forgone conclusion that whatever "The Law" states must be adhered to, and if violated must be enforced at all costs. Unfortunately there exist just too many unjust, absurd, horrific, ridiculous, and outdated laws such as, Jim Crow, Apartheid, FATCA, the Patriot Act, FATCA, the Nuremberg Laws, .....compulsory TV licensing *even if you don't have a TV*.... Most people who are negatively affected by such laws are usually met with derision and marginalized and told to suck it up by the majority of society simply because "It's the law!". It's a shame that we all live in societies that have placed "the Law" above justice and common decency.
So what, let them suffer.
The people that are silent about laws , are de facto, supporting it in effect.
Let them lose sales.
I think you mean Jacques. He's the dick from Quebec. Scott lives in Toronto.
some karma... and kinda lukewarm about it.
J'ai du mal à saisir le rapport avec le message parent. Sans compter que les termes sont un peu crus.
Near a border is a an irrelevant legal distinction. You're in one region or the other. And you have to comply with the laws of that region. And yes, you should have to.
Even if those laws are morally wrong or economically stupid? Just because it is a law doesn't make it a good idea nor does it mean that you should automatically comply with a stupid and pointless law. Fight the good fight if it is worth fighting. I know plenty of businessmen (including some of my family) who refuse to do business in France because of the burden of this language law.
They want to defend their culture against the cultural imperialism of the US and their use of the English language.
Passing laws like this will not "defend their culture". It merely hurts them economically, makes them look stupid to the rest of the world, and at best delays the inevitable changes that will occur. Furthermore, the VAST majority of Canada (you know, the country they are part of) speaks English as their primary language so your argument that this has anything to do with the US is bogus on the face of it. Just because you speak a different or additional language doesn't mean your culture has to change in any significant way. They can still speak French all they want. But if people want to speak or otherwise communicate in a different language then that should be their prerogative. Not much of a democracy if you can't speak in your own voice with your own language.
I live in Québec and because of those law I can't purchase product from the local store because the box is not en French. It happend to me last year where I purchase some headphone (nothing fancy there were even NO paper in the box to explain how to plug it). But since the box wasn't available in French, Best-buy would not have the product, online I could see it but they would refuse to sell it to me if my address was in Québec.
So I've went to competitor in Vancouver that is not affected by Québec law and purchase it.
Result? The law has remove a sale from my local store and move that else where.
Yes, yes, we all remember the news stories about The Great Lost Headphone Sale of 2012. We don't need to be reminded about that calamity.
The owner just needs to say a firm "No." and hope that the Quebec Language Police throw down their guns and surrender.
Maybe the rest of Canada would be more receptive to french if Quebec wasn't trying to eradicate english inside Quebec (which is still part of Canada btw..). Unfortunately, Quebec thinks that the rest of Canada should learn french and be bilingual while they want to only have one language-- french. Fuck that.
I will. There are a lot of good reasons to have an official language. Costs, same expectations, safety, I could go on.
Most places have a de-facto language or at most two. People need to communicate and they're pretty good at figuring out how. In any locality there is a strong tendency to end up with the same language because of the need to communicate. Making it a law is at best redundant and at worst economically damaging if you take it to the extreme's Quebec has. The US doesn't have an official language because it doesn't need one. Neither does Canada really and I've spent enough of my life in Canada to know.
The US is spending many billions of dollar trying to make every in every language.
Nonsense. At most the US worries about English and sometimes Spanish. You might find other languages in places like airports where people might just be passing through but there is hardly any big effort to accommodate every language out there. You put signs in the most common language and if that eventually changes then you change the sign. Language should follow the people, not the other way around.
And how many of them go on to be fluent with that otherwise useless language?
I'd actually say that being a native English speaker is a DISADVANTAGE overall. You come to believe that the world must speak in your language, and never make any personal investment in learning the language (or culture) of another land. I am a native English speaker, and felt "disabled" when I live in Europe amongst people that routinely spoke 4-5 languages fluently (including English). Simply growing up with exposure to those languages is enough to help diversify their brain... and in my experience, their outlook on the world as well.
The world is not nearly as US-centric or English-centric as most of us believe.
I used to have a sig, but I set it free and it never came back.
Hawaii has two official languages (English and Hawaiian), but 80% of the population speaks "Pidgin" (Hawaiian Creole English) and fewer than 4% are fluent in Hawaiian. In Hawaii's case, "official language" means that all official publications are available in these two languages (people specify which one they want, so as to not make the manual twice as thick, for example). Nothing prevents people from speaking Tongan, Samoan, Japanese, or Pidgin in everyday life. Nothing says that only Hawaiian and English are acceptable for store signage. Nothing says that private entities (including stores) have to make everything available in these languages. Indeed, only limited Hawaiian is taught in our regular schools (by the fourth grade I could count to ten and say the primary and secondary colors). What Hawaiian I know is purely by luck that it was preserved in Pidgin.
Quebec: demonstrating to the world why we need high yield nuclear weapons and carpet bombing since 1974.
Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
But that's okay, no matter how economically self-destructive their policies are, they'll just take the shortfall from the rest of Canada.
Similarly, I am very offended when I call a bank or any other local business and the first thin I am asked is if I speak Spanish, to press '9'.
Now, I also recognize that "speaking English" is not a strict definition. Many natives don't do that very well.
I'm a born and raised anglophone Quebecker. This is an issue I've faced (yes, faced) my whole life. There is a great deal of prejudice and discrimination against anglophones in Quebec, both socially and legislatively. Two applicants to the same job, both perfectly bilingual, one Francophone, one Anglophone, most times the Francophone gets the job. I've had people pick fights with me in bars, because I was speaking English with my friends privately. If you didn't attend English school as a child, you can't send your children to English school. I've gotten attitude from merchants for using the wrong conjugation or gender. The language issues touch every aspect of life here and truly divides Quebec. I've been against these discriminatory laws my whole life. In spite of all this, recently, after the last federal election, I'm starting to get it. Quebec is different than other provinces. The things we care about are different than the general population of North America. We believe in free health care and education for all. Not as a concept, but to the core of our being. It's ironic that we care so much for everyone, but lose sight of it over something as trivial as language. Francophone Quebec is afraid that we're going to lose these differences, this identity by way of dilution of the language. This is where the animosity comes from. It's rooted in fear, not in hatred. The fear of losing the language is justified and real. French is fading and being mixed against the cultural influence of English media. In 50 years, it will be the second language in Quebec. The fact is, today it's a French province with clear laws that signage and publicity must be in French first, and in English second. This said, the language police are overly aggressive and make silly moves like this pretty often.. and unfortunately it undermines Quebec and the social issues it faces. It makes us seem silly and petty to the rest of the world. If you live here, after things like this you have a harsh taste in your throat once you're done rolling your eyes. It is getting better. The next generation understands the world better than the previous generation, and things continue to improve.
I'm really surprised to see such lacking arguments on this post. I have come to see slashdot as a place where reasoned argument rules and the sort of ambiguous attacks displayed in much of these comments are driven down.
Here are some useful links. Canada is a bi-lingual country, and we embrace that fact: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O... Quebec has laws in-place to protect its heritage which the citizens believe are necessary: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C...
Sure these laws seem strange to outsiders, but there is a large segment of the Quebec population that take seriously that their land continue to reflect their culture. And to the people that use business as the ultimate barometer of a laws efficacy, remember that there are some people who hold other things higher than cash and they have every right to do so. I'm sure the Quebec people understand the negative effect that these laws have on their economy, but can balance the sting by appreciating the positive effect they have on their lands and people.
Personally I would like to live there and experience these Canadian peoples way of life.
Bonjour!
Comment removed based on user account deletion
My thoughts exactly. Uninformative crap post. Suppose this is "shocking" news if you are not familiar with Quebec's history and language / culture laws. Really just seems like enforcement of existing laws,
Actually Mr. Iron, it would be roughly 55 percent extra space, as translations of English into French are approximately 10 percent longer because of the way the language works. Those publishing bilingual materials often lower the font size of the French by a point, so the two languages can share the same layout and graphics.
But if all other things were equal, it would be about 55 percent larger.
I do hope that helps. But it probably won't.
F.
If your only tool is a hammer, you'll approach every problem as if it were a nail. - Abraham Maslow
shut the fuck up asshole. we all know english people won't make any efforts to learn french even if the live in france directly.
I am Canadian, I live in Ontario, I am an anglophone, and I went to french immersion school for 4 years, with about 90 other students in my class, and studied with Rosetta Stone for two, but I live in an almost exclusively english area.
I can read french pretty well, but I can't really speak it well due to lack of practice. So anyways, english people do make efforts to learn french. It's usually the French people who put us off of it with attitudes like yours.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
have over the content of a web page not hosted on a Canadian server?
Or else what? Are they going to revoke her business license?
CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
The world is not nearly as US-centric or English-centric as most of us believe.
True enough, but sure as fuck even less of it is French-centric.
I agree that learning new languages is great (especially for people that have a talent for it), but I think that language nationalism is bad (including in the US, where it really seems to be picking up). The amount of people that say things like "my family learned English when they came" but are obviously just ignorant (or have English ancestors) is upsetting to me. Having slight isolation between cultures is a good thing I think (and I don't mean strong, simply areas where ideas are developed in close proximity but differently), as it allows for exchange between divergent groups and when things reconnect (as the inevitably do) the whole is better than if everything was just one homogeneous culture.
I've found a lot less English speakers in Europe than people seem to claim, especially as far as "everybody speaks English". The people that spoke English seemed to be tourist facing types, and those that went to University, second languages tended to be the closest bordering country in Europe for the most people.
Trying to use broken Spanish to talk to people that had broken Italian as a second language is fun.
Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
How very classy of you. Typical response of someone with a crappy hockey team and garbage beer. Just admit you're America lite and move on Sally.
Time to run all the acronyms, idioms, and misspellings through Google Translate. That will make the language police happy I'm sure.
By the way, WE NEED THIS LAW in the southern US!
I'm a first-generation Quebecois in America (ugh!) and my French = NULL. I studied it some on my own as a kid and took it for 5 years in school. I also studied Latin for 2 years, and German and Chinese for 1. I tried, I really did.
I can't speak a single damn one of them and can barely read a tourist map.
I studied linguistics for 2 years and was very good at it, but it simply feels impossible to learn another language. The amount of rote memorization, unusual grammar, and idioms makes the task seem insurmountable; I'm done trying. I guess I'm just lazy.
A joke they told in my language classes was that a person who spoke three languages was trilingual, a person who spoke two was bilingual, and a person who spoke one was an American. Without having exposure to many different languages at an early age - not just exposure but living amongst them - Americans are pretty much doomed when it comes to learning a second language. Before the age of 4 children can acquire just about any language with ease, and this decreases until the age of 11 or 12 or so - after that, its really really hard to learn another.
It sucks living in New York City and feeling like I'm the only person who doesn't speak another language, but that's just life. At least I speak only English and not only French.
To extend this, I've known plenty of people who have lived in Asian countries (for at least a few years) but never really picked up the language. It's one of the advantages of being a native English speaker... you can go almost anywhere on Earth and find people that know enough English for you to live day-to-day life. The only things you really need to pick up are words and phrases with no direct translation.
On the other hand, I've met many many foreign types in America who don't bother to learn English, even though they live here now.
Be seeing you...
French inferiority complex. Well earned though they may be, surrendering to them is a sign of French weakness. Here's an idea French speakers...why not just put on your big boy pants and do something that would actually give people the urge to use the French language voluntarily. Viva la Lafayette!
The USA is only 4X older than me...perspective
If the bank does it, I would assume it's just good business (or they wouldn't do it).
Are you really offended by that? As for government I agree with you in general (though sometimes pragmatism should win out, I don't think government should be inefficient to enforce the 'rightness').
The youngins always learn the local language in schools, it's the older generations that traditionally would move into an ethnic neighborhood, and not learn the local language (unless you count the local language as the one of said ethnicity).
If the local Mexican grocer was required to learn and do business in English, my neighborhood would be diminished while he learned to do such, similar for both the east-asian and south-asian grocers. I'm glad that these people are allowed to open up businesses, rather than apparently being forced to close down as they are in Quebec.
Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
I like how you describe Best Buy as a local store. That's kind of cute.
to please send the letter in French
I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
I'm sorry -- can you translate your slashdot comments into French, and post them above the English? Then we can help you.
Quebec wants to keep its culture distinct ( not the absolute majority (cf. referendums on independance), but a sizeable portion of the Quebecers (cf. the Sovereignists run the provice today). ... ... do not take this as a political endorsement of the stalinists there )
Surrounded in a English-speaking continent, Quebec is taking affirmative actions so ensure that...
Quebec companies have to use French, which is not the same as being barred from using English
Ostie de calisse en tabernak', americans are laughing at us, quebecers, because they are jealous : we can go to Cuba on cheap and sunny vacations (well, actually considering our winter
From the article, "Eva Cooper owns Delilah in the Parc". She also owns Delilah Glebe, which is in Ontario. Thus, in effect, she does own / rent / lease / has bought land on the other side of the border.
Exactly. If Cooper cannot obey the laws needed to run Delilah in the Parc, she always has the option of sticking to Delilah Glebe.
The concept is to what jurisdiction does one's FB feed belong to?
As I understand it, it belongs to the joint jurisdiction of the jurisdiction in which Facebook is headquartered, the jurisdiction in which the server exists, and the jurisdiction from which the business that maintains the page operates.
And does *any* governing body have veto powers when it comes down to what it is that you have to say?
Governments have seen fit to regulate commercial speech by business located within their borders more strictly than political speech.
Actually it's Bill 101 that is the cause of all this. Basically, Bill 101: french must be everywhere and people who don't speak french aren't people. (disclaimer: I'm french canadian, it's my native language. and I had to learn english on my own starting 16 years ago.)
If there's a subject on which I can't agree with my fellow slashdotters, it's anything that touch the language laws in Quebec.
Yes I'm a french canadian, yes I'm partial on the subject. But please, try to understand. To us, language protection is as important as the right to bear arms in the US.
With 330 millions english speakers around us, french would rapidly become extinct without laws to protect it. And to us, language IS our culture. Therefor we have democratically passed laws to ensure that our culture will still exist in the future.
There is no language police in Quebec. It's barely a small branch of a ministry that can give you a slap on the wrist. Best Buy is still called "Best Buy" and you can still buy your kids clothes at the "Children"s place". But at least it try to preserve our culture.
And I'm saying that and on the other hand I want my kids to learn english from preschool at the same time than french. We are not in the 70s anymore.
Really, I have to idea why would this be of any importance to us on Slashdot.
Fuck le police.
The jurisdiction is over the store, which is why Facebook probably wouldn't be sued, and sure, they could revoke her business license, or fine her, the same if she didn't comply with laws requiring various notices or whatever posted in her store.
sorry couldn't resist...
Quebec's irrational ide'e fixe reaches to Southern California and Mexico as well.
Many products in local stores have packaging printed in two languages- French & English. In my American city we have roughly 10,000 Spanish speakers for every French speaker. In Tijuana the imbalance is more extreme.
The language police have a long reach.
...omphaloskepsis often...
Quebec does not want to be a part of France... Not at all and far from it... the "damn cousins" is how they call French... and the current influx on French people leaving the Eurozone troubles is not well regarded...
If people are not somehow gently pushed to learn English by speaking it, they have little incentive to do so, and you have these enclaves of foreign-speaking residents who develop a society of their own separate from the rest of the country. Overall, society pays the cost of having to support business (private and government) in more than one language. It does not provide value, except to facilitate tourism and immigration, which I agree may actually be valuable in other regards.
If people were obligated to at least do formal interface with the government in English, they would be more likely to conduct other business in English too, and we would all benefit (me, who does not speak Spanish, could do business with that fraction of the country which currently only does business in Spanish for instance.)
What offends me the most about the calls to the bank is that Spanish is the primary language you hear. I am not offended that they are actually able (and find it profitable) to conduct business in Spanish, it is that Spanish is the first language you hear when you call.
If people are invested enough in this country that they have to have a local bank account, they should be able to understand at least enough English to know that pressing 9 during the first few seconds will get them a Spanish menu without having to be told, in Spanish.
...did anyone catch the reference to "Montreal French" in The Monuments Men.
We run a B&B in Ontario; we speak pretty good Frog, and we have a web-page in Phrog for the Phrog tourists. So I'm gonna take it down (the Phrog version) and return some error code to the bastards. 406 (not acceptable) is a good one, but also 402 (payment required) might come in handy.
Doh.
With climate change, the U.S. is becoming a desert. They need an influx of water in vast quantities. To facilitate this, the CIA has infiltrated the Quebec government to lead Quebec to independence. Canada will then be free to sell the St. Lawrence river to the U.S. for trillions of dollars. Quebec will get french stop signs. Follow the money.
To whoever modded the parent: You keep using the word "Troll". I do not think it means what you think it means.
If you force cultural blending too quickly you limit the foreign culture influence on society, which i think is a benefit (perhaps I am wrong, but I think that there is not just a correlation, but also a causation to the fact that the best, and especially best lower price, ethnic food is in areas where English speakers can be hard to find).
At least locally (to me), the cultural push of being surrounded by English speakers appears to be working too, as it's been well over a decade since I've needed to order by number in a restaurant (even if they're still on the menu), and probably close to 5 years since a server didn't have native quality of English at a Mexican restaurant (though the Asian ones it is sometimes clear English is a second language). I personally believe that a slow cultural integration benefits everyone, which is not to say I support some more extreme measures such as enforced bilingualism.
Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
Meanwhile, in other parts of Canada, people come here and talk Tagalog (Philippines), Chinese, Korean, Hindi, Farsi, German, Ukranian, Polish, Spanish, Cree, Blackfoot, even English. We try to accommodate people and welcome new people. I personally love Thai, Vietnamese and Mexican food. If a Chinese restaurant wants a big sign in Chinese, I welcome the big Chinese sign. Poor Quebec: Insular, Inbred. Under the impish belief that their culture is superior to all others, they are stupid enough to try and enforce it by law. Others are cosmopolitan. They are insular, unrefined, parochial. Perhaps they don't even realise how stupid they look to the rest of the world.
And to throw Canadian politics into this discussion, Justin Trudeau, leader of the Liberal Party and potentially the next Prime Minister of Canada, holds up Quebec values as a beacon to the rest of Canada. Something tells me this will not end well.
Because they are a bunch of cheese eating surrender monkeys.
They only pretend not to know English when you ask them: "You speaka da English?!"
To see how long that disadvantage lasts look at the frogs, who still dream of the day when the language of education and science was frogish. Even though it's been 200 years.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Hahahahahahahahahaha. That's some funny shit.
Try convincing *them* of that.
Quebec enjoys the rather awkward position of being legally recognized as a "distinct nation", yet is still a province of Canada. Their legal system also operates differently than the rest of Canada's.
I was in PQ briefly once. I could *feel* the condescension. The only interaction I had was with a park staff informing me that I wasn't allowed to have my dog there in the wide open field (not that there were any signs indicating such, in French or otherwise).
The easiest way to explain Quebec to Americans is: "they're French" ;)
I have traveled to China a fair bit and question your statement. My experience was my inability to speak Mandarin was a major hurdle. Most of the people i encountered were unable to recognize even the simplest of english words.
Pardon your french?
It got close a few years ago. They had a vote to secede, but it didn't pass.
The French speakers in Canada have been paranoid about their language for a long time now. I remember back in the 90s when I lived in Alberta this was a big issue. They see themselves as a small island of culture literally surrounded by English speakers (or frozen arctic wastes) and if they don't jealously guard their language they'll lose it. They're probably right too, because maintaining two languages on everything is a hassle and many people would naturally stop bothering with the French stuff if they were given the option.
I read the internet for the articles.
The Canadians can keep their power and use it to refine their own stinking tar sand oil.
Bravo moderator. Don't let the troll's bitching deter you.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
It's an American problem. If you speak any language but English, then you have an easy pick for second language. If English is your first language then you have to take a gamble. Do you go for Spanish so you can talk with Mexicans? Or maybe French so you can talk with some Canadians? Or maybe something more exotic that you'll probably never use? Maybe Chinese so you'll be prepared for the eventual world takeover, just like all of those people who studied Japanese back in the 80s. Or you could study Japanese because you love anime but hate reading subtitles. Learning a language takes so long that by the time you're good at it, who knows what your life situation will be like.
I read the internet for the articles.
Trudeau wants to make the whole country like Quebec. Who the country will leech money from to pay for all the government spending is an open question.
Don't forget that over 150 years ago, a big portion of the US territory was under Spanish and then Mexican rule (and other languages were spoken before that). English is only the most recent language to be spoken until some different language takes its turn.
Keep in mind that there is no official language in the US (http://answers.usa.gov/system/templates/selfservice/USAGov/#!portal/1012/article/3206/Official-Language-of-the-US). It happens that English is the most common followed by spanish. ~40 million people are spanish speakers in the US, that is way more people than the population of many countries. Businesses and governments cannot simply ignore that.
Genie comprendy pass? What the fuck does that mean?
...as to why this kind of crap is bullsh*t.
For those who don't know, the most common second language(s) in British Columbia are the major Chinese dialects. Some people refer to Vancouver as Hongcouver because of the influx of Chinese after the Hong Kong changeover to western Canada. They've brought a lot of money and business with them.
Anyway... everything has to be bilingual (French and English) in even Vancouver where very, very people speak French, and there's nothing requiring signs in Chinese. It costs a fortune for every business in Canada to have to do this, BUT yet when you go to Quebec, it's perfectly ok for signs (even #@$! road signs) to be ONLY in French,
THIS is why so many English speaking Canadians get so pissed at the Quebecois
'The unexamined life is not worth living' - Socrates
Vive le Quebec libre !
Countries need to interact with other countries. Governments need to communicate to facilitate trade. The more knowledgeable and educated the government employees the more prosperity for the country, state or city. There is nothing negative or costly in dealing with other languages when there is a need. It creates trade and promotes growth. I speak 3 languages and can communicate in at least 3 more it was never a hindrance it always opened opportunity and brought me prosperity.
Common courtesy of a guest is to speak the hosts language. Common courtesy of a host is to speak the guests language. Courtesy is like a dance it needs to be practiced by both parties to do/be any good.
Me too, and I live there. Just update me on facebook before you drop the bombs, ok?
If you are one of a very few people in a jurisdiction who disagree with a law, it's almost as hard to change as gravity. You have to make a business decision on whether to comply, leave the jurisdiction, or start a PAC to get the law changed.
Since everything must 1st be in French, then isn't Facebook the one in violation?
Well, you see, English USED to be the first language that you'd hear on these phone systems, asking you to press 1 for English, and then asking you to press 2 in Spanish for Spanish. Then some self-righteous idiots decided to throw a big stinking fuss about how if you're going to live in America you better speak American how dare I have to press 1 for English.
Banks, of course, don't have the luxury of just ignoring the vastly growing population of Spanish speaking customers. They have a vested financial interest in making sure these customers have access to customer support in their native tongue. So now, instead of just pressing 1 for English and being done with it, you have made yourself and all the rest of us sit through 9 seconds of Spanish before we can move forward with the phone call. Thanks a lot, by the way, because I really would like that time back.
As a resident of Quebec. I take offence to what you say. I don't call you an asshole if you're government is doing stupid things (which I'll bet they do) so leave the general folks in Quebec alone and keep you're complaints focused on the provincial government of Quebec or the federal government of Canada for letting the provincial one get away with it.
I assume you are an american so I've use one company that you know but name sell electronics. For your information Best buy DO have local store near me that employ local people. Americans don't travel the border state everyday to do work in all Best Buy in Canada :)
I could have name a small company that you have no clue what it is... what's the difference?
It still pisses me off when I call the bank though !
I also believe that in the long run, these groups have to integrate somewhat into their host country, and that means losing at least some of their culture while assimilating the local culture, otherwise what would it mean to live in a particular country? Individual countries would have little identification for themselves.
Maybe that is just the way it is going. I reserve the right to decide later if it is good or bad :)
Bill 22 should be against section 2b. I have no idea why it has not been struck down. The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms
There's a grave difference language wise between immigration and bilingualism.
It's still better than the Grammar Police.
If Quebec border towns start losing provincial tax revenue to towns on the other side of the border, then perhaps Quebec will notice how harmful the law is.
Funny how the Chinese immigrants in Quebec prefer to learn English over French - supposedly the reason PQ supporters want provincial level immigration controls. Don't make this into an Anglophone's not wanting to learn another language thing - it clearly extends beyond English speakers. Tabernac!
Those who live in Texas are forced to due to their arrogance. It's the only state in the nation that is large enough to fit their oversized heads.
Phoque off.
nt
A shit-ton of French students[...]
A metric ton or an imperial ton?
So say we all
Yes.
I lived in Quebec for a year. Québécois are assholes.
They petitioned the rest of English speaking Canada to be bilingual, meaning all signage is in both languages, but they don't reciprocate.
Go into any store and there is no english signage. Whats more they are anal enough to sue stores because an apostrophe is in the wrong place, and force KFC to rename themselves to PFK (french for kentucky fried chicken). Even the french don't do that.
I think it says it all when people give you dirty looks if you speak english, and that they get insulted by the term peppers. Québécois drink a lot of pepsi stereotypically, and are offended by this being pointed out.
I was glad to get out.
If you ignore ACs because they are anonymous - you're an idiot.
Smart-ass, multiply this by hundreds to thousands of sales small and large and see if it doesn't add up.
However, I have an issue with the government (local, state or federal) spending taxpayer's money to make government services available in languages other than English.
French, and English are both official languages in Canada. Français, et l'anglais sont les deux langes officielles du Canada
And move.
Quebec please fuck off, next Referendum vote yes we don't want you and you don't like us
It`s actually: Je ne comprends pas.
Fines and revocation of business license.
Except that the government of Quebec is elected by the Quebecois. If there weren't enough voters to elect the BQ or PQ with their anti-English policies then things might change. It's not (quite) like North Korea where the average person has no say in who is in charge.
Don't be a dick, his point is that the law is causing a loss of sales that could have otherwise been made. It's completely valid and relevant.
It's weird I know you're joking but the poster had a point. He's complaining about the absurdity of the law prevents stores from stocking products because the labels or manuals not available in french language. He had to purchase off-province, I wonder how much business is lost to local market because of this.
And when full compliance is cost-prohibitive, nothing gets your story out like a fermé sign on the front door.
being legally recognized as a "distinct society"
Sovereignty had been a thorny issue for decades and using the word "nation" would just add fuel to the fire.
Don't they have la tribune libre (the op-ed page) in les journaux (the newspapers) in Quebec?
Most young Quebecers speak English. The official stat is 43% of Quebecers are bilingual English and French, but I have a feeling it's actually way over 50% if we are talking passable English. Certainly it will be by the time the baby boomer generation dies out. I hope this law is challenged before that tho.
My point is that Quebec needs to let go of the "French Only" mantra and join the 20th^W21st century. Why should Chinese restaurants not be able to have larger Chinese writing than French? Why should KFC be renamed PFK or whatever, when they don't even want to be called "Kentucky Fried Chicken" in English anymore because "Fried" is bad for business. They should rename their company to "Kiosque Frit Canada" to have initials "KFC" :-).
Languages evolve over time, but Quebecois has stagnated. Even the French call email "email", instead of "couriel." Even "facsimilie" (the root of the word "fax machine") is a valid French word, but the language police had to invent "telecopie" (sorry, my accent's are not happy) just to avoid polluting the language with an "English" word.
Did the language police make up new words for "samurai" or "sushi" or "glasnost" or "naan"? No, just for English words.
Wow you don't know anything about Bill 101. No company ever been force to change their name. All the bill is asking is a a french description when you use an English name (Best Buy is known in Quebec as "Best Buy Magasin d'électronique"). KFC decided to change their name in Qc to Poulet Frit Kentucky (PFK) to be more appeiling to Franch Canadians (so it's a pure capitalism reason).
---- wait for it.... Trans Canada Highway, heading west!
And those people typically live in English-speaking-only expat enclaves that they never venture out of - no different than those who claim to have visited Mexico by way of a visit to a Cancun all-inclusive resort.
There are a huge number of yeast infections in this county. Probably because we're downriver from the bread factory.
That's incorrect.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/23/business/global/quebecs-rules-on-signs-not-in-french-lead-to-lawsuit.html
If you ignore ACs because they are anonymous - you're an idiot.
Why didn't you oust the dirty french from these shores when you defeated them on the Plains of Abraham? Or at the very least why didn't you assimilate them and not grant them any special privileges? You screwed up Canada from that day forward.
Laden or unladen?
Right from your article :
"Its efforts, accompanied by threats of legal action and fines, to add French phrases and slogans to those trade names prompted six major American retailers to take the province to court last month."
Which is exactly what I said, you can use your Eglish name as long as you add a description in French...
You know you should read the article before using it to make a point...
Thank you, Quebec... For making the product manuals on my bookshelf take up 50% extra space and consume 50% more trees.
Thank you, France, Germany, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, the Netherlands, Spain, Portugal, Italy,... for making the product manuals in the boxed products I buy take up 1000% extra space and consume 1000% more trees. Cos, you know, here in Europe they like to make one box that they can sell anywhere.
Got them moderator blues I blieve I walk out the do', With these mod-points I been gettin', I 'most never post no mo'
Languages evolve over time, but Quebecois has stagnated. Even the French call email "email", instead of "couriel."
They've already migrated away from this, and most people call it "mél", which is more like "mail" than "email". It also works great in email signatures, as they now typically go:
Tél: +33 1.23.45.67
Mél: nom@addresse.fr
This is a good example of borrowing, because it's been nativised. The "e" bit didn't work in French, so they got rid of it. Besides, email and courriel both give precedence to mail, and email is now the norm, with paper mail being the exception. Having email no longer subservient to postal mail as a concept makes a great deal of sense.
Got them moderator blues I blieve I walk out the do', With these mod-points I been gettin', I 'most never post no mo'
What happens in a community when 50+% of the inhabitants are native Spanish speakers? Still force them to use English when they are the majority?
There is no Federal official language for the USA (is that the country you were referring to?). Each community decides how best to server its population. While some States list English as their official language, most services, like hospitals, will still support multiple languages if their community has significant diversity.
...and then you defend it
I didn't defend the law. I defended the consistency with which the law is being applied. There is a difference.
So . . . if I create a website which I intend to be read in Berlin, or Pamplona, or Rome . . . it still has to be in French?
If you are located in quebec and dealing with the quebec public via the website, then there would need to be a french version of the page in addition to the others..
If you are located in quebec and ONLY doing online sales to customers in berlin in germany in german, then i suppose technically the law might require you to have a french version of the page ... but who would ever complain if you didn't?
Never mind the argument . . . I give up.
Yes. Its a stupid law and should be repealed.
I mean if any, however local, authority in the US did the same thing to a Spanish-centered store, we'd see demonstrations. Even mentioning English-only laws is considered racism now. So Canada is openly violating human rights, right? Where are the protests around the world?
Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
I'm not sure if you are familiar with the Quebec Separatist movement. If not.
You may be 100% correct. Just know that they don't care. Not about you, not about your opinion, not about how practical or just the language law is. They are inward focused and have their own priorities.
Before anyone points out that the Separatists and the language laws aren't the same thing, I know that. However the cultural mindset and historical origins of both are the same.
In the process of correcting certain historical injustices, the Separatist movement won power, achieved everything they ever wanted (except actual political separation), and immediately overreached beyond where they should have gone in terms of policy.
Recent gems out of Quebec:
1). They wanted an Italian restaurant to translate the menu to French. Because, you know, the Italian names for the Italian dishes offended Quebec language sensibilities that all things must be French (officially, French must predominate);
2). They are trying to pass a law defining acceptable Quebequois behaviour. Most controversially, all public displays of religious symbols, worn on the person, are to be banned for provincial employees. No crosses, headscarves, kirpans, yarmulkes, etc. They want to be a strictly secular society insofar as the instruments of government. Also the cross on the wall in the National Assembly is coming down.
In the opinion of many outside of Quebec, and non-Separatists inside, these activities are designed to stir up trouble, appeal to the base, and try to keep the Separatists relevant.
You're arguing semantics. When the companies name is a phrase or slogan, it had to be changed.
Do you have a source for KFC voluntarily renaming to PFK?
I remember a story about a guy who got fined each day until he put an apostrophe in his name. Ridiculous.
And you didn't address the rest of my post.
If you ignore ACs because they are anonymous - you're an idiot.
I'm talking about 150-page user manuals that get fattened into 450-page volumes. If they're really giving you 1500-page telephone books with your electronic gadgets, then I pity you. A more efficient solution would be to target the packaging to the appropriate audience.
Another difference is that this is presumably for the benefit of just the ~3 million people in Quebec who don't know English. I suspect that the trilingual manuals have something to do with the NAFTA treaty between the US, Canada and Mexico, which covers more than 450 million people. So the 50% bloat is added for the benefit of well under 1% of the potential users.
Tu parles comme le genre d'imbécile qui n'a jamais sorti de chez eux. But hey, you keep hatin' on people you know nothing about.
Nice try with google translate. First of all, you wouldn't put an accent on the last "e" of the first word.
Tired of my customary (Score:1)
Sounds like something crazy out of North Korea! Does anywhere else in the world have something similar to this?
Twinstiq, game news
If Quebec is protecting its heritage, why don't they require everything to be in a language Native Americans understand? Because culture is a constantly evolving thing, and you can't just mandate or regulate it. Quebec needs to realize this. They sound like facists.
Twinstiq, game news
You are wrong. Quebec is not officially recognised as a distinct society since neither the Meech Lake nor the charlottown accords were passed into law. The only parliamentary motion that did pass specifically uses the word NATION.
Ah, the old "there aren't as many of you, so you're less important" argument. When this is about skin colour, religion or sexual orientation, it's mostly accepted as being bigotry; but when it's about language, it's fair game, right? Cos "language is a choice". Yeah. The first thing I did upon being born was select which language my mother was to speak to me, and communicate that to her via telepathic link. By a lucky coincidence, I managed to pick the one and only language she was capable of talking to me in.
And as for manuals, mostly they just put a "quickstart guide" in the box, and a CD-RoM with the main manuals in PDF format. No-one reads the manuals anyway. Everyone's a winner.
Got them moderator blues I blieve I walk out the do', With these mod-points I been gettin', I 'most never post no mo'
Then its not "official" advertising related to the shop and so not subject to the Quebec language rules.
Therefore I do not understand why those who want to become citizen (or green card holders) simply do not just do that and we let them. I actually know a lot of people who have a green card yet would fail the test I had to go through 20 years ago. I also do not agree that the government should spend taxpayer's money to develop government paperwork (intended for citizens and permanent residents) in languages other than English. Just like you have no expectation of privacy when you use electronic means to communicate, you should have no expectation that the government will develop tools and procedures in languages other than English when these tools are intended for residents and citizen.
If the laws on the books had been reasonably enforced, and if a majority of immigrants had shown a minimum amount of respect for the country that gave them a place to live, we would not have gotten in a situation where 50%+ of the population in an area *only* speaks a language other than English in the first place. Again, I have no beef with people speaking a language other than English, even conducting business in it, I have a problem when I find myself in an area of the USA where *nobody* (or a small fraction) speaks English and I cannot conduct business (or ask for directions) in English. I realize I start to sound like a Republican and that makes me uncomfortable...
I am an immigrant myself, but I would not have considered coming to the USA (or any other country) without having first a basic proficiency in English (or the local language) and improving it once here. I certainly would not have expected (or demanded) that the government generates instructions and forms in any language other than English, or provide a translator. I made it a point to be proficient in English and I would not have come if I had not been able to achieve that. I observe that for those who may not know English before coming here, the local college provides very inexpensive classes for "English as a Second Language" and that many people do take advantage of those, so even if you end up in the US under duress and do not speak English, there is no reason for not learning English once you are here.
I deplore that obviously many do not have such standards or do not take advantage of these classes, but I am not sure we can fix it at this point.
The issue with the banks or hospitals is different since no taxpayer money is involved. The issue is not that they cater to their foreign customers, what bothers me is that they do not even say "for Spanish, press 9" in English. How hard can it be for a Spanish speaking customer of a US bank to recognize the sound of "for Spanish, press 9"? This one is more of a gripe than anything, but it is the most apparent and one that I find offensive because of the pervasiveness of it where I live (north-west Florida, even though the Spanish fraction of the local population is much smaller here than in the rest of the state). I understand in other parts of the country it may be different. That is a personal thing I suppose.
Ah, the old "there aren't as many of you, so you're less important" argument.
No, they must be *more* important if they deserve using 100X more resources per person than the rest of us. That makes most of us less important than them. That's racist, sexist and bigoted and not politically correct.
I obviously disagree with you. Anyway, here are some fixes to improve your knowledge of my native and beloved language:
Dégagé, con! Les français jamais pris la peine de parler anglais, même quand ils le savent. Et ils prétendent ne pas comprendre juste pour être maladroit, enculés.
Dégage, connard ! Les français ne prennent jamais la peine de parler anglais, même quand ils savent. Et ces enculés prétendent ne pas comprendre juste pour être malpolis. (I'm not not sure what you meant with "maladroit")
DAMN Those arrogant, ignorant AMERICANS demanding everyone speak their language!
(Yes, folks, Canada is part of America...North America...) ;)
Also, to advance to management levels within the federal government a certain level of certified bilingualism is required. About 95% of management positions require it, regardless of whether or not your duties will require you to speak the other language to anyone. Full-time language training is provided for people who are lucky enough to get a position that will give it (i.e. they send you away for a concentrated year of learning), but that option is available less and less these days. I am not sure what the statistics on training are, but I have heard many times that the overwhelming majority of people being trained in an official language are anglophones learning french.
Personally I started taking some french courses when my work offered them, however the only offering was a 2 hour per week course which they ended after 6 months. I stopped going after it was clear that the course's pace would never get me anywhere since the knowledge needed to be applied to retain it, and I work in an IT shop where there are only one or two french people that are not on my team (though I'd have much more luck learning chinese). People who get sent to full-time language training learn french for 8 hours a day for an entire year, and even then many often fail the test a couple times before passing. The french oral test is notoriously difficult, though oddly the english equivalent is apparently quite easy. Anyway, this is just to reiterate that many anglophones are trying to learn french - they are only doing this to advance their career because the Official Languages Act made it a requirement, but they are still trying.
And to go off on another tangent, the Official Languages Act is a monumental waste of money, I would ballpark it as tens of billions yearly. I agree that francophones have rights, and should have those rights, but the current strategy of forcing the french language on majority english populations is an extremely inefficient use of resources at best. And I am not talking about within Quebec borders.
Does the trade agreement state that every product must always be packaged in all three languages? I think you'll find that it doesn't, which means it's the producer's choice to package that way. It is therefore presumably in their commercial interest to do so. If it was cheaper to have 3 different packages, they would have three different packages.
Got them moderator blues I blieve I walk out the do', With these mod-points I been gettin', I 'most never post no mo'
Result? The law has remove a sale from my local store and move that else where.
Yes but allowing the area to be overwhelmed with English only products would hurt the lower classes mostly. I have met people in Quebec that could not speak english and they tend to be rural and poor. I usually run into them as retail workers (Couche Tard mostly and sometimes La Belle Province). Going English only would probably hurt their ability to buy things.
What's really funny is watching a Parisian French speaker and Quebecois Couch Tard employee try and communicate as sometimes they can't understand each other. Although I have had the same experience with some Scots before.
As only a few US/UK citizens are open minded enough to understand few words from other langages.... they will really suffer when China will wake up, and every new interesting products only available in chinese... :P
Then they will remember this thread...
I do not want to force anybody to do anything they do not want to do, but a condition for being a citizen of the USA is that you have to speak the language. It actually is the law, if that means anything.
Nope.
All you have to do is be born or naturalized in the USA, and subject to its jurisdiction.
Unless, you are the courts: Then, you say all you have to do is be born or naturalized, and then you are subject to its jurisdiction.
Or, if you are someone who actually paid attention to older rulings: then, all you need is for a state to consider you a citizen; once one state says you are a citizen of that state, then all states have to accept you as a citizen.
Believe it or not, that was re-affirmed in a case from (memory ... might be off) 1999, against the state of california, for trying to make new arrivals to the state get less welfare support from california.
I think the quote was something like, "Citizens of the united states, whether rich or poor, have the right to choose their own state; states do not have the right to reject citizens".
The issue of being a citizen of a state or not actually dates back to old court rulings that had to deal with someone that was born, and lived entirely in Washington DC, and had never lived in any state. Prior to the 14th amendment, being a citizen or not was entirely up to the states to declare; some gave that to blacks, and others did not.
It is my understanding that the _early_ supreme court rulings after the 14th amendment actually made this clear: states still could issue citizenship, and if they did not, you could claim citizenship from the central government, and then get all the federal rights in state courts.
Don't ask me when the courts started messing up -- I don't know.
But now, it's more "If you are born here, then you are automatically subject to federal jurisdiction, and the restrictions of article 1 no longer apply".
I meant: "a condition for becoming a permanent resident or a citizen (by naturalization) is that you speak the language". That is part of the regulations that used to be applied by the INS. I suppose the courts probably can decide to make you a citizen without the involvement of the INS, but that is not to my point. The majority of immigrants have to go through the INS.
Thank you for catching this. The rest of your post is informative (thank you, I did not know:), but only tangentially to my point.
It is only one of the differences naturalized Americans have compared to naturally born Americans.
Interestingly, the US has no official language and, according to Wikipedia, has well over 300 spoken/signed languages in general use. Of course, 80% of the population are native English speakers but it still has the fifth largest Spanish-speaking population in the world. However, 20% of the roughly 300 million people in the US means some 60 million people have a native language other than English... in other words, the US contains a population nearly equal to the UK that does not speak English as a primary language. No word on how Americans speak Klingon natively, but they're not expected to have children to pass it on to.
jeez now Quebec is behaving like the US of A sticking their nose up everybodys ass
Yup its messed up OK.
The simple fact that they don't speak modern french in that province but a "bastardised" and "ancient" variety of french that many "REAL" french people cannot understand fully speaks volumes.
Sure have your shop in dual language but Facebook ? WTH !
Most CNC machines come with language options including French and many times I have set the language to French at the request of a client only to be called back a short while later to change them from "REAL French" to "English" just so they can operate them in that province. that's how messed up the French language is in Canada.
Let them keep that Province and form their own government but also cut ALL other money, taxes, grants, subsidies etc,etc. from the rest of Canada and lets see how long they last.
shut the fuck up asshole. we all know english people won't make any efforts to learn french even if the live in france directly.
I am Canadian, I live in Ontario, I am an anglophone, and I went to french immersion school for 4 years, with about 90 other students in my class, and studied with Rosetta Stone for two, but I live in an almost exclusively english area.
I can read french pretty well, but I can't really speak it well due to lack of practice. So anyways, english people do make efforts to learn french. It's usually the French people who put us off of it with attitudes like yours.
Which is why most of us learn Spanish instead. Yo siempre quiero hacer en un otra idioma. There's no attitude from the worldwide hispanic culture when you make a mistake. Very welcoming, very friendly culture that I embraced because it embraced me. I've worked for French companies, and I've lived in France for 6 months (Lille). I like French, and France is my favorite country in the world.
I speak a little French, enough to function there, but overall I chose to abandon them and their language in favor of Spanish. It's a better language anyway from an orthographical standpoint. I have friends in France, but they do have one of the largest shares of twits per capita.
http://www.accountkiller.com/en/delete-slashdot-account Stop visiting Slashdot.
Bill 22 was written and allowed to persist when the French language was threatened. It is not threatened by we English who live here, but by the exodos of Francophones who move to other provinces.
And the French are racest and biggoted. There is a proposed legislation to baan Hijabs, Kippas, Turbins and perhaps visible religious symbols (large crosses) for all public servants.
Quebec lost 12000 net net population last year. Mostly francophones who found better living conditions elsewhere.
I won't relocate because I am a grandfather, and my grandchildren are in school in Montreal. Were my own kids portable, I would strongly advise them to leave the province. Discrimination is at an all time high.
There are two population groups that are leaving, the well educated who are engineers, doctors, nurses, lawyers, whose training was in English, but can't pass the French test at 90% level, and the unemployed. Both for opportunities elsewhere.
The result of this outward migration is that the tax base is being eroded. Quebec will not be able to ever clear their tax deficit. Shame..
Its too bad, as I get to my mid to late 70's I will be one of the bilingual English who will remain to close the lights.
LS in Montreal
PS.
French will definitely disappear from North America. It will take about 250 years, perhaps less. My reasons for so say are as follows:
There are 50 million Latinos in the USA and a very large number in Canada. There are more Spanish speaking in North America than the 6 million 2nd generation French.
The internet is in English. Business in North America, and mostly in the world is in English.
There are 350 million Spanish in Latin and Central America, by all rights, the second language of Canada should be the modern Spanish.
Is it worth doing business for 6 million citizens for a population that is ageing? Six million population is not 6 million consumers.
In closing, the French extremists, instead of encouraging an adoption by offering incentives, are using the whip. Don't like it here, then get out.
Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada
As an immigrant who started learning English in school, I have no objection to anyone using the language of their choice for whatever private purpose they want to.
However, I have an issue with the government (local, state or federal) spending taxpayer's money to make government services available in languages other than English. It seems to be common courtesy that if you want to move in and live in a country, you learn the local language as a courtesy to the locals you are invading as a mark of respect.
Similarly, I am very offended when I call a bank or any other local business and the first thin I am asked is if I speak Spanish, to press '9'.
Now, I also recognize that "speaking English" is not a strict definition. Many natives don't do that very well.
I love languages, and while I was born and raised in English, my wife is from a Spanish speaking family. What a thrill it was to learn and understand a second language, the music and other culture.
The family moved to Quebec, because of the similarity to Spanish. I moved to Quebec because of my wife's aged parents.
I love speaking and writing French, my second best language. But, I do not like the fact that a) I cannot post in English, I cannot have a bilingual sign unless the French is prominent, and there are biggots and racists amongst the good people who just make living in Quebec a hell hole of racism and prejudice. The French justify these actions on the basis of "protecting the Quebec French".
Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada
http://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/files/nativedocuments/M-618.pdf
I don't know if things changed or not, but currently there is no requirement to speak or write english to immigrate to the US.
"Under current law, only applicants for U.S. citizenship, not those applying for green cards, must prove English proficiency."
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb...
Maybe I was confused. I was pretty certain that I had to pass a proficiency test when I applied for a green card 25 years ago, but maybe it was for the citizenship, or maybe the law changed since then, or maybe it was just a policy of the US Immigration Services at the time.
Apparently English proficiency was a provision to the ill-fated immigration reform bill that was put together by a bi-partisan group last year. In my opinion, that would be a good thing. US born kids have to go to school (or be home-schooled) and therefore have to possess at least a minimum of English proficiency by the time they turn 18 (I will readily admit that in some cases it is really minimum.) I see little reason for not asking the same from immigrants.
The situation is resolved, OQLF dropped the case!
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/technology/Language+police+drop+attack+Chelsea+boutique+owner/9574668/story.html