Ask Slashdot: Fastest, Cheapest Path To a Bachelor's Degree?

First time accepted submitter AnOminusCowHerd (3399855) writes "I have an Associates degree in programming and systems analysis, and over a decade of experience in the field. I work primarily as a contractor, so I'm finding a new job/contract every year or two. And every year, it gets harder to convince potential employers/clients that 10-12 years of hands-on experience doing what they need done, trumps an additional 2 years of general IT education.

So, I'd like to get a Bachelor's degree (preferably IT-related, ideally CS, accredited of course). If I can actually learn something interesting and useful in the process, that would be a perk, but mainly, I just want a BSCS to add to my resume. I would gladly consider something like the new GA Tech MOOC-based MSCS degree program — in fact, I applied there, and was turned down. After the initial offering, they rewrote the admissions requirements to spell out the fact that only people with a completed 4-year degree would be considered, work experience notwithstanding."

Comments

Apply to a local university

[Anonymous Coward]

What other advice were you expecting?

Re:Apply to a local university

[JWSmythe]

Maybe he was looking for an answer more like, this. It would be far faster and cheaper. You really can't beat 14 cpm (certificates per minute) with the more traditional routes.

Re:Apply to a local university

[t33jster]

Frankly, with all of the job experience on the OP's resume, a degree mill is not a bad way to get a legitimate line on the resume. I had an associates degree, went to the local branch of the state university, and realized I'd be graduating with my kids if I stuck with that route. I sucked it up, plunked down the money to buy my degree in 15 months worth of classes, and now HR departments everywhere will pass that portion of the resume filter.

As far as the original requirements - fast, cheap, accredited, you may pick any 2.

One way you can lighten the financial burden is to get hired full time by a company that offers tuition reimbursement.

Re:Apply to a local university

[jellomizer]

You often can get a decent rate at part time taking some classes at your local state University. You can often take classes before you are admitted to the school. Usually after you prove that you know your stuff and get a few good grades, the school will normally let you in the program.

As for experience. Experience does matter, however from my own personal experience hiring developers, a college education usually gets employees that don't have those odd holes in their skills, which makes bringing up to speed sometimes a little more difficult.
These gaps vary from person to person... However some of the common ones are.
1. Not understanding details of data structures. Why am I getting a negative number when it is clearly 5 billion!
2. Recursion seems magical. I admit it, in college it took me a bit to get Recursion, after a class in LISP it cleared it right up. Also when you get the details realizing how often the system is stacking stuff together means there is a limit on how much Recursion magic you can do.
3. IPC (Inter Process Communications) Dealing with threads can get sketchy if you don't have a way to get them to talk.
4. Complex Boolean logic with short circuit evaluation. Yep after that one function returned true that second function won't run in your or clause. You know that one for some reason you made to update some data.

Now for those of you without degree who feel insulted by this, don't be this is what I find are often the most common issues. There are a lot of really good developers without degrees, many who I will admit who could kick my butt at coding. But for a company trying to hire, it is normally better to weed out some good employees then it is to hire a bad one.

Re:Apply to a local university

[jellomizer]

I am willing to bet most companies will not bother to see if your college is accredited just as long as it sounds collegey.

For most jobs in theory you can just fake your degrees. But if you get caught you are often in deep doo-doo, as lying on your resume is a bad thing.

For people with experience a college degree gets past that resume filter.

Re:Apply to a local university

[mlts]

I've never understood the point of a degree from a non-accredited institution. If the university isn't accredited, I'd probably be better off licensing an official Miskatonic University degree plaque from HP Lovecraft's estate.

The parent nailed it. I'd see about the reimbursement item.

Also, sometimes OS certificates can get one in the door as well. A CCIE can get one in the door, similar with a MCSE. For the tech people, it doesn't mean as much, but the HR department are the people that round-file resumes or pass resumes on, so those are the people that one has to get past first, then one will need to show the IT people what one can really do.

Re:Apply to a local university

[mlts]

I'd add a couple:

5: Locks and integrity. You have two threads updating one variable. Without some sort of transaction/lock/mutex/semaphore system, one can get very unpredictable results. This is a subset of #3 above, but variable manipulation can be a basic thing overlooked.

6: Choosing the proper variable type in a strongly typed language. Yes, one can always use long doubles for every floating point calculation, similar with long longs... but when a counter never gets past 16, it wastes space. Yes, the pressure to conserve RAM and disk space isn't as much as it used to be, but embedded programming is only going to grow, so resource use will be an issue for a number of projects.

Re:Apply to a local university

[cheesybagel]

For most jobs in theory you can just fake your degrees. But if you get caught you are often in deep doo-doo, as lying on your resume is a bad thing.

Man don't say things like that. That is a good way to get a major black spot in your resume. This business is smaller than some people realize. Next time you try getting a job it will probably be of the kind where you say 'do you want that with fries or not?'.

Re:Apply to a local university

[jellomizer]

As you noted #5 was a subset of #3
Also I would say #6 is a subset of #1. If you don't understand data structures those long doubles and long longs seems like the best choice if you really don't know why there are so many different types.

Re:Apply to a local university

[ranton]

Perhaps an actual answer to his question.

First off, make sure your Associates degree is a transferable associates degree. The fact that you say it is in "Programming and Systems Analysis" instead of just Associates in Arts or Associates in Science leads me to believe it isn't a very transferable degree. You would have needed things like 3 communications classes (English, Speech, etc), 6 behavioral sciences / humanities courses, 2 science classes, and 2 math classes. If it is a transferable degree, then you are half way there.

If it is not transferable, you can try to use CLEP tests to get past many required classes. I was able to get past two humanities courses that weren't part of my associates this way. If you can't pass the tests because you are a bad test taker or something, community college classes are your best bet. It will be easy to pass those classes but it will take a while this way.

If you aren't able to go to college for two years during daytime hours, it will be a bit harder to finish the last 60 credit hours. When I needed a BS while working in 2009 I was forced to use University of Phoenix, but now there are many better options at real schools. I followed up my BS with an MS at a real school, so I didn't mind going to a degree mill. But a quick internet search can find numerous online BS programs at real brick and mortar schools.

I do not suggest going to a diploma mill unless you are going to follow up with a real MS. The government is likely to start cracking down on programs like UoP and Devry soon, and those schools will probably obtain even worse reputations than they already have when that happens. That said, I did get a job with a 50% pay increase by just listing I was 12 credit hours away from my UoP BS degree, so it was useful to me all by itself (my boss later confirmed my resume would never have reached her desk if I hadn't listed I was close to my BS).

Re:Apply to a local university

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

I'm not an HR flack (Thank the nonexistent deities of a thousand dead pantheons); but I'd guess that, if HR (or anybody else who felt like quietly dropping the dime on you for some reason at any point during your tenure...) was feeling nasty, testing for degree mills would be easier than testing for fake or overstated degrees.

Thanks to some combination of FERPA and the Office of the Bursar's desire to extract fees, actually getting the details of a student's stay at a given school is a pain. By contrast, googling the exact name of the school the applicant claims (or even running an automated query against info from accreditation bodies, if you do this in bulk) is easy.

They may or may not care; but trusting the difficulty of that database problem is like turning your back on a dude with a knife and a nasty gleam in his eye.

Re:Apply to a local university

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow! You missed the opportunity to hang out with your kids and party with them. What a loser.

Re:Apply to a local university

[ShanghaiBill]

For most jobs in theory you can just fake your degrees. But if you get caught you are often in deep doo-doo, as lying on your resume is a bad thing.

Man don't say things like that. That is a good way to get a major black spot in your resume.

Nonsense. Even if you get caught (unlikely), there is very little chance that it will hurt you in your next interview. Do you really think HR people have nothing better to do than to build and maintain blacklists for the benefit of their competitors?

Re:Apply to a local university

[cheesybagel]

No. But they can certainly check your resume by calling your ex-bosses to ask them about you.

Re:Apply to a local university

[AlphaWolf_HK]

I took three. I did 90 credits at Mesa Community College, who operates a very solid Cisco Network Academy affiliate, and 30 credits at Northern Arizona University for my bachelors in IT Management. Both are public colleges and accredited. It's cheap because you get the discount community college rates for 90 credits, and then only have to do the core credits for the university portion (skipping all of the fluff such as liberal arts, because they recognize that you already did the fluff at community college; so why repeat it?)

Zero student debt, in fact my costs were almost non-existent due to FAFSA and other grants issued by the schools themselves (which were based on FAFSA results but funded separately.)

Re:Apply to a local university

[LifesABeach]

I hear one can buy many things in Mumbai, tried there yet?

Re:Apply to a local university

[Registered Coward v2]

I am willing to bet most companies will not bother to see if your college is accredited just as long as it sounds collegey.

I would not bet on that. More likely, if they haven't heard of the school they will trash the resume unless your experience is eye catching.

Re:Apply to a local university

[Registered Coward v2]

No. But they can certainly check your resume by calling your ex-bosses to ask them about you.

And any smart one simply refers the request to HR, especially if they fired you. No one ants to open themsvez up to a lawsuit.

Re:Apply to a local university

[Anonymous Coward]

Said the clueless kid to the accomplished adult...

Re:Apply to a local university

[ShanghaiBill]

No. But they can certainly check your resume by calling your ex-bosses to ask them about you.

They may check on your last job, or the one before that if in the last few years. But it is very unlikely that they are going to check on a job from five or ten years ago. Likewise, if you are 23, they may check on your degree, but if you are 33, that is unlikely too. You just need to be smart about what you lie about.

No prospective employer has ever asked me for proof of any degrees, and they never asked for my GPA or transcripts. As far as I know, they never checked with any previous employer about anything. For some reason, they seemed to be much more concerned about what I could actually do.

Re:Apply to a local university

[Hognoxious]

According to TFA, he's a contractor. While he might work remotely, there's a good chance he has to travel to the client site, and things being how they are there's no guarantee how long he'll be there.

Therefore he might not have a local university.

Re:Apply to a local university

[cheesybagel]

No prospective employer has ever asked me for proof of any degrees, and they never asked for my GPA or transcripts. As far as I know, they never checked with any previous employer about anything. For some reason, they seemed to be much more concerned about what I could actually do.

Google 'Gil Gerard'. He is one example of someone who lied on his resume. I know more cases of this happening. It works until it doesn't. When someone finds you out you usually are toast.

Re:Apply to a local university

[mrchaotica]

2. Recursion seems magical. I admit it, in college it took me a bit to get Recursion, after a class in LISP it cleared it right up. Also when you get the details realizing how often the system is stacking stuff together means there is a limit on how much Recursion magic you can do.

4. Complex Boolean logic with short circuit evaluation. Yep after that one function returned true that second function won't run in your or clause. You know that one for some reason you made to update some data.

I would hope that LISP class would teach you to avoid side-effects when possible too...

Re:Apply to a local university

[cheesybagel]

If the company you worked for is large enough to have HR. Even then when they are thinking of hiring you sometimes they ask specifically to speak with the project manager or your former boss. I have factual knowledge of this because in one of the companies I worked for we all worked in an open space office and the CEO quite often answered calls from other companies asking for details on some ex-employee. They were usually quite terse in their replies and only confirmed or dismissed previous work experience. However I remember on other more informal occasions someone in a different company asked my boss about someone and he spilled all the beans. People in the business know each other better than you would think they do.

Once I was working at a pretty large client and one of the people handling the contract at the client knew where I had studied. In fact he had studied in the same college I did and so did his boss.The company I worked for gave them my resume before sending me there. In fact he told me he had explicitly asked for it from my boss.

So try lying on your resume and see how far you will get with it. It is not a good idea. I do not lie to people by principle. If you think you can get away with it you probably can. For a while. Just do not count on it working forever. Your income depends on your reputation. If you get a bad reputation do not be surprised that people will stop wanting you to work for them.

Re:Apply to a local university

[chuckugly]

Is there an item for confusing processes with threads?

Re:Apply to a local university

[ADRA]

Funny that you mentioned those information holes. I learned all of those facets from a technical diploma 14 years ago, and I know more than a few CS degree grads that several years into the workforce have confessed that they never 'got' multi-threading. Basically, everyone has holes and most have a ton of them. Being ignorant isn't the end of the world, but being ignorant and incapable of learning is a much larger problem, but I doubt educational background has as crutial in determining the latter.

Assuming that the 'average' 12 year work experience individual is less capable than the 'average' BSC new grad is rather insulting to the veteran's, full stop. If you want to compare individuals of the same seniority, that's a different matter, but frankly at that point you should be able to talk to a developer for a while in order to know which one is full of it.

Re:Apply to a local university

[Registered Coward v2]

If the company you worked for is large enough to have HR. Even then when they are thinking of hiring you sometimes they ask specifically to speak with the project manager or your former boss. I have factual knowledge of this because in one of the companies I worked for we all worked in an open space office and the CEO quite often answered calls from other companies asking for details on some ex-employee. They were usually quite terse in their replies and only confirmed or dismissed previous work experience. However I remember on other more informal occasions someone in a different company asked my boss about someone and he spilled all the beans. People in the business know each other better than you would think they do.

I realize people know each other; having worked for quite some time I often tell people it is never a good idea to burn bridges because it really is a small world. I know many of the major players in my niche and we talk periodically even though we are competitors. My point was is most companies will do nothing but verify dates of employment to avoid potential lawsuits.

So try lying on your resume and see how far you will get with it. It is not a good idea. I do not lie to people by principle. If you think you can get away with it you probably can. For a while. Just do not count on it working forever. Your income depends on your reputation. If you get a bad reputation do not be surprised that people will stop wanting you to work for them.

I totally agree. Lying is a bad idea overall and certainly bad on a resume. I can deal with incompetence but can't abide lying.

Re:Apply to a local university

[Just Some Guy]

7. No locks and eventual consistency. I work at a company which answers about 40,000 HTTP requests per second, average, 24/7. Some techniques that make sense at small scale ("lock this object, read it, update it, release") would bring the whole thing to a grinding standstill at larger concurrencies. Learn the tradeoffs between ACID and eventually consistent databases and when each is more appropriate.
8. CAP theorem and why you can't just code around it.

We'll be seeing each of these becoming more and more important as the standard abstraction programming model moves up from transistor logic to assembler to virtual machines to distributed computing.

Re:Apply to a local university

[rev0lt]

I'd add one for setting them apart dogma-style :D

Re:Apply to a local university

[Anonymous Coward]

You hit the nail on the head with #7. There are times when to use NoSQL based databases, and times when ACID compliance is a must.

Problem is that the schmucks use NoSQL when you NEED integrity, so usually it is the other way round.

Re:Apply to a local university

[Anonymous Coward]

Some non-accredited institutions are perfectly competent, they just (for some reason) don't mesh with the accreditation requirements. Lots of US religious colleges are like that - you may disagree with their principles, but they will give an education. The catch, of course, is that there's no external body judging how good that education is. Unless God counts.

However, most non-accredited institutions are diploma mills, or diploma mills with other token requirements (see also Gillian McKeith's "thesis") to try to dodge being called that. Do not buy any qualification from a diploma mill. For one thing, it only encourages them. For another, in the event that anybody does check up on it, they not only know that you're unqualified, but that you're a liar as well.

Re:Apply to a local university

[HornWumpus]

Check you processor architecture. Using ints smaller then the native register size of the processor is _slower_ and the code is larger. Truncation is not free.

Re:Apply to a local university

[Bengie]

When I went to school, my adviser said to stay away from diploma mills. For most good jobs, they are worse than not having a degree.

Re:Apply to a local university

[Bengie]

I like #7 for regular programming. When working with threads, many times wasting work because the data some times changes, is better than locking on every read to make sure the data hasn't changed. At least when working with relatively small tasks. Works great for heavy-read, almost never write, kinds of workloads.

Re:Apply to a local university

[Anonymous Coward]

Funny you should mention this. An old colleague of mine had an Indian wife and they needed to return to India because her family had health issues. Whilst there, he completed his schooling and got an MCSE to boot, all for less than the cost of the MCSE here in the US. Whilst there, he lived like a king on his part-time IT salary.

Re:Apply to a local university

[Wycliffe]

Google "yahoo ceo scott thompson resume"

Yes, he was eventually found out but only after becoming CEO of yahoo and probably having millions in the bank.
I probably wouldn't want to do it but putting a 10 year old degree on your resume after you already have 20 years
experience is probably pretty safe. They will probably call the last 2-3 places that you worked but chances are
they won't actually call the college. As a contractor, even if they do call and it says you were never a student,
you can play ignorant and move on. You could also play it safe and use a college that has since closed:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C...
The OP was complaining of losing a significant number of jobs so he would have to weigh the number of lost jobs
due to not having a degree vs the number of lost jobs due to someone calling and not being able to verify.

Check out WGU

[FictionPimp]

http://www.wgu.edu/

Solid course material. Industry standard certs tied to the courses as finals, and fully accredited.

Re:Check out WGU

[gujo-odori]

+1

My team lead is currently doing a degree there and he speaks very highly of it. It's pretty affordable, too.

Re:Check out WGU

[mbaGeek]

ditto on WGU (got my MBA in IT management from there) - another low cost, accredited option is Excelsior (one of the older "distance education" institutions)

Re:Check out WGU

[tpaudio]

I also did a degree with WGU and am very happy with it!

Re:Check out WGU

[Anonymous Coward]

I just finished my degree with them and +1 this. As long as the student is self motivated, the degree can be done quickly and cheaply.

Re:Check out WGU

[AnOminusCowHerd]

After a brief review, this (WGU) actually sounds very promising. Fully accredited, work at your own pace, cheap (~$3,000 per 6-month term), liberal acceptance of transfer credits, acceptance of industry standard certifications for degree credit, credit given for anything/everything you can test out of, and an interesting non-traditional, non-class-based program of study. I'm surprised I hadn't heard of this one before. Thanks.

Re:Check out WGU

[Anonymous Coward]

+1 Love the program. After completing military service with more than a decade in my field it has been a great experience and worth far more than the meager tuition.

Re:Check out WGU

[Anonymous Coward]

I was going to say this same thing. I am currently in my last couple classes of my Masters in Network Management at WGU. Do it on your own time and it only costs like $6000 a year. Its great

Re:Check out WGU

[niado]

After a brief review, this (WGU) actually sounds very promising. Fully accredited, work at your own pace, cheap (~$3,000 per 6-month term), liberal acceptance of transfer credits, acceptance of industry standard certifications for degree credit, credit given for anything/everything you can test out of, and an interesting non-traditional, non-class-based program of study. I'm surprised I hadn't heard of this one before. Thanks.

I'm surprised how many people haven't heard of WGU. I hadn't heard of it until shortly before I enrolled there. Their marketing seems poor.

It's one of the few solutions that meet your criteria - since you can technically complete your degree in 6 months (depending on what you can get transferred in) for $3k - the kicker being that the school is regionally accredited.

Re:Check out WGU

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm going to WGU now, and I'd recommend it if you know your stuff. I was accepted because previous college credit (AA) and minimum experience. If you have that much experience you shouldn't have any trouble. Just one caveat - They do provide some study material, but if you lack real world experience expect to have to find some study material on your own. I was having trouble with the CCNA exam/cert and I failed the test the first time. I asked if they had more course material to help me study and I was sent to a website with a list of links. ccnalinks.com Some of it was free, but most of the links were links to study material for sale or pay-walled sites. I talked to my adviser and his reply was (paraphrasing), 'We don't guarantee that the material we give you is sufficient to pass the exams/certs, and that why we say it's for people with experience working the industry and not for people starting out in the industry.' I'm paying a little over $3000/semester (6 months) in tuition and fees already, so when I exhausted the study materials they provided, I was put off when their response was if I wanted more study material I'd have to pay for it out of my own pocket.

Re:Check out WGU

[Anonymous Coward]

If the article submitter is good at taking tests he/she could use CLEP, DANTES, etc. to test-out of many subjects and earn credit hours at Thomas Edison State College (http://www.tesc.edu), Charter Oak State College (http://www.cosc.edu), or Excelsior College (http://www.excelsior.edu). All three are regionally accredited.

Re:Check out WGU

[jrbush82]

Definitely check out WGU. I earned my M.S. in Information Security and Assurance, my wife earned her Post-Baccalaureate in Elementary Education, and my sister earned her B.S. in Marketing Management. I've had numerous employees enroll with WGU after having been made aware of it. They are non-profit costing the student only ~$3,000 per six-month term and is regionally accredited by the Northwest Commission on Colleges and Universities, one of the major accrediting commissions recognized by the U.S. Department of Education. Moreover, the College of Information Technology has "slip-streamed" industry certifications into their programs (pass the cert test, pass the class)... fantastic!

Re:Check out WGU

[dataspel]

The only thing that concerns me about WGU is whether it is generally accepted
by employers as a substitute for attendance at a class-based school. That is, given
2 equally qualified candidates, one from WGU and one from an average state school,
would the state school graduate have preference in being hired?

consultancy

[Anonymous Coward]

Just start your own consultancy, highlight your previous contractor engagements as examples of pleased clients, and sell your ability to clients. I've done this for years, and I've never had a single client ask me about my education history.

Re:consultancy

[FictionPimp]

That plus industry certifications.

We are a RHCE shop and look at all these happy clients who use Redhat, or the staff has X MCSE and MCSA holders and here's our list of happy people with windows servers.

Re:consultancy

[Anonymous Coward]

The requirement to pass any of the IT specific classes at WGU is taking and passing industry certifications.

I'm a student attending WGU. I'm just into my second year, and I'm more than half-way done with BS in IT, including picking up 8 certs so far, with my next set of courses being the CCNA and MS networking cert. Part of your WGU tuition pays for the cert tests, so it's not out of pocket to you, and you can take as many classes as you can fit into your schedule for the same cost (~3000 for 6 months).

I cannot recommend it highly enough.

Re:consultancy

[Anonymous Coward]

Excellent advice.

Next up: "Where can I buy a good used car?" "Take the bus!"

Re:consultancy

[Hognoxious]

It's more like "Sell your own car to yourself", but it's still retarded.

Re:consultancy

[bberens]

How do you shop for new clients? How do you find businesses and get on their list of "approved vendors?"

Re:consultancy

[fayro]

Certifications are THE way to stay gainfully employed in tech...hands down. But NOT because they really do anything for you, they are a quantifiable credential for HR and headhunters. HR is the first and most difficult task in the employment process. Certs are cheap and have a good ROI both in time and money outlay. Some are harder than others but I know guys working for code farms or support companies with nothing more than a couple of certs...no degree and no plans to get one. Degrees are nice but the curriculum stays a bit behind unless you're at an expensive research university like MIT. Certs are always industry current and tells an employer you can do the job.

A printer and a template

[Anonymous Coward]

Most companies never vet your resume.

Re:A printer and a template

[zlives]

and he didn't mention "legal" anywhere

Re:A printer and a template

[Manfre]

As far as I know, there are no laws requiring people to be honest on their resumes. They will obviously get fired if caught, but not arrested and charged with a crime.

Re:A printer and a template

[coolsnowmen]

the Submitter might actually want to learn something though

Re:A printer and a template

[HornWumpus]

Forgery is 'something'.

Re:A printer and a template

[Shados]

I once interviewed for one of the big investment banks (not gonna give a name, but its one of the big evil wall street banks that everyone knows about). That one has the usual silly "4 year degree with 3.0 GPA or we don't even talk to you, no exception, not even if you're a well known superstar in the software world" rule.

I didn't know that, and I only have a 3 year degree (from a country where thats common). I aced the interview as that particular job wasn't even very computer science-ish, and they had been looking for someone for months to fill that position. Then they noticed the little issue of me not having the mandatory degree.

The hiring manager (not someone from an agency, but someone on their payroll) just modified my resume without telling me and passed it over to HR for final signoff. I got hired.

Fast forward a year, they're updating the HRIS system and verifying that all the info is correct. I get an email from HR asking me to confirm that I indeed have a 4 year bachelor with 3.0 GPA from Big Name College XYZ with my boss CCed.

My boss quickly replied, before I had time to go "WTF?!", that I indeed had such a degree.

Needless to say, him and I had a little talk afterward. That was awkward.

Re:A printer and a template

[Anonymous Coward]

If he actually wanted to learn something 'fastest and cheapest bachelor's degree' should not be his goal.
If you want to learn something, ask instead 'What's the best low-budget bachelor's degree I could get in [subject]?'

Re:A printer and a template

[gstoddart]

the Submitter might actually want to learn something though

And yet, the summary says:

If I can actually learn something interesting and useful in the process, that would be a perk, but mainly, I just want a BSCS to add to my resume.

To me this sounds like how it reads ... someone wants the letters to put on their resume to make it look better.

Re:A printer and a template

[SillyHamster]

Great that your boss is watching out for you, yikes that your company has to lie to itself to hire and keep qualified personnel.

Something's broken, and it's beyond individuals to fix it ...

Re:A printer and a template

[Hognoxious]

Don't know which other country you're talking about, but a UK 3 year honours degree is considered equivalent to a 4 year US degree.

I don't think "4 year" is to be taken literally.

Re:A printer and a template

[Anonymous Coward]

My wife is from Venezuela, she has a 3-year bachelors from her school, but must US universities won't let her to apply to their master's programs because she has ~100 credit hours instead of the magic 124 credit hours required.

Re:A printer and a template

[JoeMerchant]

I got a BS and MS from a here to be un-named University. A few weeks before graduation, I also got a parking ticket, which I contested. I got an un-official copy of my 6 years of transcripts before the ticket was done with the appeals system. I got my first job without even showing the unofficial transcripts, worked there for 12 years while the Uni sent me probably 100 letters demanding $20 payment for the ticket, informing me that my records are frozen until such time as the ticket is paid.

Next job was with a big corporate place out of state, I showed them the unofficial transcripts, that's all they wanted to see.

Many jobs since then, none have even asked for my paperwork- and, unless the Uni was bluffing, none of them have gone behind my back to get the transcripts, either.

Re:A printer and a template

[JoeMerchant]

Easier to make it literal on the paperwork, instead of convincing HR of the equivalency.

Re:A printer and a template

[Shados]

The type of degree isn't relevant for a lot of stuff, especially when it comes to immigration or certain employers.

In this case, that employer worked simply with post-secondary years, and counted a master as 6 and PhD as 10. So someone who did 2 bachelors in 6 years was equivalent to someone with a master. What happened before that, or which country or type of degree you had, was irrelevent.

For immigration, its total years of schooling. So how long high school takes in your particular country is relevant. here.

Its dumb, but that's how it works. It just depends who you talk to. My current employer doesn't give a damn and is purely performance based, so without a degree at all I have a higher title (and salary) than some people with PhDs.

Re:A printer and a template

[JoeMerchant]

Time is money, actually, when I turned 30, time became more valuable than money.

Re:A printer and a template

[JoeMerchant]

I'd say, fastest and cheapest:

BSCS - right there on the keyboard, slap those letters on the resume and you're good to go.

Does the degree need to come from an accredited institution?

Most CS employees I know mostly BS their way through everything they do, anyway.

Re: A printer and a template

[Anonymous Coward]

At a ABET certified school. You may not want a master now, but if you do later, no good school will let you in. It goes like this:
Job > bs degree > make comfortable income > want to achieve more (masters) > can't get into a good masters program because I cheeped out on BS. For engineering, you can only get ONE degree that will be accepted by ABET certified schools. Do not fuck this up, you bay not want a masters now, but if you do well at your occupation as an engineer, it's common to get one later, when you are comfortable.

Re:A printer and a template

[Anonymous Coward]

I work in graduate education leadership at a medium sized university and there are a measurable number of applicants each year that have 3 year degrees which do not equate to a 4 year degree. As an accredited university, we cannot admit those applicants, regardless of their merit.

Re:A printer and a template

[Anonymous Coward]

As far as I know, there are no laws requiring people to be honest on their resumes. They will obviously get fired if caught, but not arrested and charged with a crime.

if you call yourself an engineer when you have not completed the P.Eng process it is illegal. you can be arrested and charged with libel and impersonation. im pretty sure doctors go through something similar but i mentioned engineers as it is relevant to the people who are on /.

Re:A printer and a template

[Anonymous Coward]

Except by HR folks.

Re:A printer and a template

[Anonymous Coward]

This is how I plan to finish my post-grad degree.
There are even pretty credible online degree printing sites. If you use high quality paper and get it embossed, it looks as real as the next one. Everyone will be envious--they look great! on the office/study/workplace wall. Thunderwood College is produces a great looking degree.
Several hundred instead of $100K and a 4 year "hell week" works for me.

Re:A printer and a template

[Anonymous Coward]

Time is money, actually, when I turned 30, time became more valuable than money.

So true, and not enough people realize this. That's why I always take my OT as time banked.

Re:A printer and a template

[Anonymous Coward]

Be careful. Lying on applications with the Federal Government is illegal and can be a felony. Maybe State and Local Governments, too. "Falsifying Government Documents" is the charge from my understanding.

Re:A printer and a template

[Anonymous Coward]

You say that, but just try convincing USCIS of it. It took two separate letters from accreditation providers.

Re:A printer and a template

[Maxwell]

Only in Texas is "engineer" a protected word. The rest of the world knows that a "software engineer" is different than an aerospace engineer

Re:A printer and a template

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, a 4 year USA degree is to be taken literally--it is a Bachelor's Degree. Bachelor of Art/Science.
The 4 year is referring to the number of credit hours and not calendar hours/days/months/years.
120 credit hours is the minimum for a 4 year degree. (A family member went straight through without summer breaks and finished in 3 calendar years. My college had no summer course and it took 4 calendar years. Each of us ended up with 120+ credit hours.)

Re:A printer and a template

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm pretty sure that's not true. There's more than 3 years worth of course work involved with earning a 4 year degree in the US. There is a bit of slack so that you don't have to pass every single class, but unless those degree require you to go year round, I can't figure out how they would cover the same amount of class time.

The UK has a different system, but missing an entire year seems a bit questionable if you're suggesting that it's equivalent. You probably skip the breadth requirements which would make folks with those degrees less flexible and as such less valuable.

Re:A printer and a template

[erikscott]

Not really true. It's illegal to offer engineering services to the public for projects not suitable for instate commerce unless you're a PE. If a hypothetical project could possibly be built in one state and sold in another, you don't have to be a PE. Professional Engineers usually do roads, bridges, footings, big earthworks, stuff like that. Most Civil Engineers find that they have to be PEs to even hold a job, while almost no aerospace engineers are PEs. Turns out that airplanes can cross state lines pretty easily. Electrical Engineers who are PEs are mostly found in electrical utility design and construction.

Different rules apply in Canada and probably every other country. "Engineer" is a trademark in Canada, and the Canadian PEs protect their turf through trademark law. :-)

Re:A printer and a template

[s.petry]

Like you say, falsifying information on your resume or application is a terminable offense at most businesses. This means that it is often illegal, just not in the State of Federal jurisdiction for Law. This means that lying on a resume may not get you put in jail or cost you a hefty fine, but being unemployed is almost as bad (especially when you can't use the former employer as a reference).

Re:A printer and a template

[Manfre]

Many states have "at will" employment, which means that the employer can fire anyone for any reason, as long as that reason doesn't violate established law.

Re:A printer and a template

[niado]

unless the Uni was bluffing, none of them have gone behind my back to get the transcripts, either.

The University cannot release your records to anyone without your consent. You usually have to actually make the transcript request yourself, and tell the school to send it directly to your company's HR.

Looks like you've been lucky so far.

Re:A printer and a template

[Hognoxious]

I was accepted (and I wasn't the only one) for a job in the US where a prerequisite was a bachelors.

As to the assumption that a year is "missed", that's pretty arrogant. It couldn't at all be possible that we learn faster, our universities are (or were) more selective, or that we do more in high school (we can specialise from age 16).

Re:A printer and a template

[Whorhay]

My Father took a few years off of work because of a no-compete clause. It took twice as long to get hired again because no one would consider hiring a guy with 25 years of experience without a BS. He finally found work as a contractor for a large non-profit, who had refused to consider his resume because of the lack of a degree. That same company had some policy about not keeping contractors for more than a couple of years. For a decade his bosses had to go round and round with the HR drones to keep him working there because finding someone willing to write and maintain assembler code for their mainframes was nearly impossible.

Re:A printer and a template

[HornWumpus]

You clearly know arrogance.

For the record. I've worked with a few brits and I'm not impressed with their education in general.

Re: A printer and a template

[Anonymous Coward]

A resume is inadmissable in court for this purpose, as the document is not a signed legal instrument. Typically there is no way for a company to prove in court that you were the one who submitted a fraudulent resume. The only practical means of recourse for a private business is termination.

Re:A printer and a template

[NicBenjamin]

As far as I know, there are no laws requiring people to be honest on their resumes. They will obviously get fired if caught, but not arrested and charged with a crime.

Saying something you know is untrue (ie: I have a degree) to get money (ie: a job) is fraud.

It probably won't actually be prosecuted, but that doesn't mean it could not be prosecuted.

Re:A printer and a template

[NicBenjamin]

Why wouldn't lying on a resume be fraud? You're submitting a false document in hopes of getting money. That's the definition of fraud.

It's not likely to be prosecuted, or even result in a Civil Lawsuit, but that doesn't mean it's legal.

Re:A printer and a template

[Hognoxious]

Yes, a 4 year USA degree is to be taken literally ... The 4 year is referring to the number of credit hours and not calendar hours/days/months/years.

Make your mind up.

Re:A printer and a template

[Hognoxious]

That should be a comma after "record".

Re:A printer and a template

[Hognoxious]

This means that it is often illegal, just not in the State of Federal jurisdiction for Law.

Illegal means "against the law". So you're saying it's against the law but not as far as the law is concerned. Read that slowly, does it make any sense?

Re:A printer and a template

[Hognoxious]

Obviously this will vary by jurisdiction, but it in some it can be "obtaining a pecuniary advantage by deception", i.e. fraud.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/new...

Re:A printer and a template

[JoeMerchant]

As the decades roll by, the chance that an employer cares at all about a degree earned in ancient history falls to zero.

Besides, the parking fine is non-interest bearing, if, at some point in the future I need a transcript, paying an extra $20 to get it will just be amusing, after the hundreds they obviously spent on collection, well over $50 in postage alone, plus envelopes, people to stuff them, etc.

Re:A printer and a template

[s.petry]

There are many kinds of law, and I'll grant I was being very generalized. If something is against a law there is an expected punishment. I know of cases where people were charged with fraud (as someone mentions above) so we would have to debate the technical merits of each case to know if 'fraud' was committed and if there would be criminal prosecution.

That said, I think you should compare the definition of "rule" and "law" and you will see what I intended with my statement.

Oh, and read those to definitions very slowly if you don't get it the first time.

Re:A printer and a template

[rabun_bike]

Economists call this "opportunity cost" and as you are able to earn more money your opportunity costs increase.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O...

Re:A printer and a template

[Anonymous Coward]

You're submitting a false document in hopes of getting money. That's the definition of fraud.

It would be if they were paying you for the document, but they're paying you for the work. It just happens that you need the document to get the work.

Re:A printer and a template

[Anonymous Coward]

I put an associate's degree on my resume for one job, got hired. After I left, they begged me to come back. They clearly never called to confirm. Once you hit 32-35, people will just assume you have your degree. Why would you question a bachelors from XYZ university from someone who has 10 years experience in the field and is currently employed? That's chump work work most HR departments.

Re:A printer and a template

[Hadlock]

If you produce zero useful work, then yes that is fraud. If you go above and beyond their expectations A) will they seek to clarify your claimed records and B) are they getting less than the deal you both agreed to? If you're producing a level of work higher than the average college grad these days (not difficult to do) then there's no misdeed being done. And if they want to fire a high-performer for lying to get the job, that's the company's problem. I didn't have to lie to where I got, but I have a much nicer view than most of my better-qualified coworkers (whho have been there for 15+ years) after 2 years due to working my butt off and being valuable to the company. If you lie about your training and then sit on your ass all day then yes they will look for reasons to fire you. If you outperform your coworkers 2:1 then by all means, they should be looking for ways to keep you happy and keep you on.

Re:A printer and a template

[NicBenjamin]

Just because you out-perform your co-workers doesn't mean you didn't get the job (and thus the salary) by lying. The act of fraud isn't your job performance, it's your application. Moreover the victim isn't necessarily your boss, it's the qualified applicant who didn't get the job due to the fake resume.

You got money due to a fake document. That caused hard to both the employer (which spent money on you), and other applicants (who didn;t get the job. That is the definition of Fraud. Depending on how good the job is, the premium for college degrees in your field, etc. it may not rise to the level of Criminal Fraud. And you are not likely to go to prison even if it does because nobody prosecutes that shit.

But that doesn't mean you would actually get off if the government tried to send you to prison.

Re:A printer and a template

[Anonymous Coward]

Many companies have fallen into the trap that people with degree's ='s qualified. Industries need to start changing this tune and respectively their requirements for hiring.

Re:A printer and a template

[Xest]

It wasn't broken. HR and his boss were just making sure he's corrupt enough to keep working for a major bank.

Re:A printer and a template

[Anonymous Coward]

> Time is money

People say that, but they neglect to mention the "work hours" aspect of time.

I mean, I could walk into the deli, unemployed, and say "I want a turkey club for free. I can wait all day if necessary. Yes sir, I've got all the time in the world!" Doesn't mean I get the sandwich. :)

Re:A printer and a template

[Hognoxious]

There are many kinds of law, and I'll grant I was being very generalized.

So? If something's against a relevant one, it's illegal. If it isn't, then it's not illegal. It's in the definition of the word.

we would have to debate the technical merits of each case

Sorry, but I have walls to bang my head against. I'm sure it would be more educational.

That said, I think you should compare the definition of "rule" and "law" and you will see what I intended with my statement.

"Rule" wouldn't make much sense in that context anyway, but if that's what you meant why didn't you write that?

Re:A printer and a template

[s.petry]

"Rule" wouldn't make much sense in that context anyway, but if that's what you meant why didn't you write that?

I personally don't have that much difficulty with generalizations, and assume others think the same as I do. Of course that is a bad assumption, but not unreasonable expectation that a few people get it.

Re:A printer and a template

[Hognoxious]

Applicants from where, you fat cunt?

You seriously claim you'd refuse someone from Oxford or Cambridge in favour of someone from Podunkville or Derpsburg because they'd done their degree in three years?

I apologise for calling you a fat cunt. You're a lying fat cunt.

Woah there, pilgrim

[Anonymous Coward]

My advice would be to slow down. Looking for the "fastest cheapest" degree is a mistake. Just go get one. You _will_ learn something. More than you think. And you will be much better off in the end. Employers looking for sharp people will see right through you otherwise.

Re:Woah there, pilgrim

[azadrozny]

I had a similar though, fast and cheap is the wrong mindset. Sit down and research the local (or online) schools and degree programs available to you. Dig into the courses and see what topics are taught. Look for a program that will compliment your career goals. Some schools may accept your associates degree coursework, but make sure you ask up front since credits do expire. You are probably looking at a minimum of 2 years to complete a decent program. It could be a long, miserable road if you pick a program simply because you can get it done "fast". I am not saying that time and cost shouldn't be a factor, but make sure you consider the sights you are going to see along the way.

Re:Woah there, pilgrim

[Anonymous Coward]

With 12 years in the field, he can probably teach many of the courses. If he were going for a graduate degree, yours might be worthy advice.

green:led

Re:Woah there, pilgrim

[Hognoxious]

He probably could. But without the magic piece of a dead goat's bum he probably couldn't convince anyone that he could.

That, largely, is the gist of the question, is it not?

The answer is simple:

[Anonymous Coward]

College.

Distance education in Turkish Universities

[eaudurobinet]

Hi, You can check for Internet for distance education programs in Turkish universities. Many of the courses are offered in English too. Also you can gain a bachelor's degree in 2 years if you can transfer your credits from your previous studies.

Not IT ...

[Anonymous Coward]

And every year, it gets harder to convince potential employers/clients that 10-12 years of hands-on experience doing what they need done, trumps an additional 2 years of general IT education.

They don't give bachelor degrees in 'IT'. They give bachelor degrees in a field of study.

'IT' is an application, but to the best of my knowledge, not something you can get a degree in. At least not a 'real' one.

If you want BSCS after your name, you're not getting a fucking degree in 'IT'.

Re:Not IT ...

[Anonymous Coward]

At the university I went to, they do a business degree with a focus on IS: http://www.fresnostate.edu/catalog/subjects/info-sys-decision-sciences/ba-cis.html however I'm not sure how great the course work is, as I did CS.

Re: Not IT ...

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.wgu.edu/online_it_degrees/information_technology_degree

Re:Not IT ...

[HornWumpus]

It's a business degree. That should tell you everything. PHB training academe.

Re:Not IT ...

[viperidaenz]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B...

Re:Not IT ...

[mlts]

It isn't "IT", but there are degrees in IS, along the lines of business management. This is another path, likely a profitable one since it gets one closer to PM/PHB types of jobs... those are the jobs that will stay even after the corporate axemen come to visit with the pink slips.

Re:Not IT ...

[Anonymous Coward]

From your link:

While the degree has a major focus on computers and technology, it differs from a Computer Science degree in that students are also expected to study management and information science, and there are reduced requirements for mathematics. A degree in computer science can be expected to concentrate on the scientific aspects of computing, while a degree in information technology can be expected to concentrate on the business and communication applications of computing.

In other words, it's for people who aspire to be in management and not technology.

Those people have neither the rigor to be good at tech, nor the experience to be good at management.

And many of us view it about the same as the guy who got his MBA without ever having held a real job -- they know enough to be dangerous and annoying, but not actually helpful in accomplishing anything.

Places where I've worked, these resumes get tossed in the bin if the applicant is looking for a technical position. And the ones who end up in management or sales positions ... well, they've yet to change my opinion of them.

My school had a concentration like this. And those guys almost uniformly barely made it through their technical requirements, and muddled through their business requirements. Which made them pretty much useless to anybody.

They're widely reviled as a slacker's degree. And I've yet to meet one who was worth their salt.

Re:Not IT ...

[HornWumpus]

MBA has mod points.

Re:Not IT ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Haha, modded "troll" for truth. The truth hurts, doesn't it, PHBs?

associates degree?

[Anonymous Coward]

what's wrong with a two year associates degree from a community college? Just asking

Re:associates degree?

[Anrego]

My gut tells me the education is just the "official" or "least objectionable" thing employers are finding to either negotiate a lower salary or show him the door.

Kinda like when you buy a car and find some nitpick thing to get the guy to knock a little off the price.

Re:associates degree?

[Anonymous Coward]

More and more, a BS degree is becoming a prereq for even getting your resume looked at. Used to be, an AS or AAS was good enough; then it was "BS or equivalent experience". Now, no BS is a(nother) way to shrink the pile of resumes before a human even looks at them.

WGU

[Tumbleweed]

As someone already mentioned. Both regionally and nationally accredited. Also very affordable.

Seems so

[slinches]

Ask Slashdot: Fastest, Cheapest Path To a Bachelor's Degree?

Yes, it seems like a free education can be had just by posting the right ask slashdot questions.

I have no degree

[Anonymous Coward]

And have not encountered the trouble you are seeing. (I'm a software engineer)
I don't bother putting the community college I didn't finish on my resume. I'd recommend you quit advertising that you have an associates degree, control the conversation. I'm assuming people forget to ask about my school, and since I didn't put that on my resume they aren't reminded to consider it.
Or maybe Silicon Valley operates by different rules than the rest of the world and is more tolerant of mavericks.

Re:I have no degree

[Anonymous Coward]

There's a core idea that I think is overlooked, and you're the closest commenter to it.

When you've been in the field for 10 years, no one really cares where your degree came from. There are Harvard graduates that do nothing with their lives. There are community college graduates who become wildly successful CEOs. After 10 years in the field, what the client really wants to know: Do you know your stuff? Can you prove it? The answers should be: Yes. Take a look at some of the work I've done for previous clients.

When entering college, you show them what you did in high school. When entering graduate school or the work force, you show them what you did in college.

In essence, when you progress your career, you're showing what you have done immediately prior to now.

Re:I have no degree

[JWSmythe]

My resume doesn't have any education listed on it either. It never has. Knowing the subject matter is far more important than the piece of paper saying I spent a few years at a school.

If they ask about it, I only discuss it loosely. Yes, I have gone to college. No, I don't have a degree. I started working, and stayed with working rather than school. I've never been pressed for any educational details, like what college/university, how long, etc, etc.

Usually, if I get in for an interview, I have the job. Some others, I interviewed and refused the job, just because I didn't want it after I saw the environment or the people I'd be working with. Employers seem just as likely to misrepresent the actual job, as candidates are to misrepresent their own abilities.

Re:I have no degree

[Anonymous Coward]

There's a core idea that I think is overlooked, and you're the closest commenter to it.

When you've been in the field for 10 years, no one really cares where your degree came from.

In Canada it is common practise for employers to demand a university degree at the bachelor level plus 10+ years experience. For entry-level and some junior-level positions they will waive the education if you have sufficient 'progressive" experience but not always. Sometimes you have to take a step back to move forward so continuous "progressive experience" is not always possible.

Re:I have no degree

[Anonymous Coward]

Which is why I find a lot of bright Canadians that have moved to California.

A few things to consider

[BenSchuarmer]

I don't know much about on-line options.

I got my degree from a local state university that has a lot of non-traditional/part-time students. I'd suggest seeing what colleges in your area are like that.

Re:A few things to consider

[Drethon]

And the cost at those local state universities is usually pretty good.

Re:A few things to consider

[fermion]

I find for each local field, the employees tend to come from a very universities. The reason for this, I guess, is not only chauvinism but also because graduates of a certain university speak a common language. Therefore, if the objective is not just becoming educated, but rather trying to use a degree to make more money, look at the local colleges, look at which graduates get hired.

As indicated elsewhere in the discussion, online universities appear to be best for people who already have a job but need a sheet of paper to advance. If no one in your area is hired new employees from SHNU, the time spent there will not be profitable.

Re:A few things to consider

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know much about on-line options.

I got my degree from a local state university that has a lot of non-traditional/part-time students. I'd suggest seeing what colleges in your area are like that.

Wish I didn't get into the Anonymous habit because this is really good advice.

Don't rule out the larger city based Universities either, provided that they have a decent (top 50%) ranking. Only the really cream of the crop schools are going to have much purchasing power based on their name brand, and at the prices you will be seeking, any cheap University that doesn't suck will be a good deal.

Besides, after a job or two past graduation, they'll never ask where you went to school again anyway (unless they're looking to use Alma Mater references to network).

You Don't Want to Work There

[Anonymous Coward]

RE "it gets harder to convince potential employers/clients that 10-12 years of hands-on experience doing what they need done, trumps an additional 2 years of general IT education."

This is actually a benefit. If this is the attitude then you do not want to work there. Take it is good information that the prospective employer is lazy in hiring and does understand programmers and move on.

Re:You Don't Want to Work There

[Hognoxious]

If this is the attitude then you do not want to work there. Take it is good information that the prospective employer is lazy in hiring and does understand programmers and move on.

,,, and if he doesn't have a trust fund?

Fast, Cheap, Good

[Anonymous Coward]

Pick two.

Re:Fast, Cheap, Good

[Anonymous Coward]

Fast and Cheap should work just fine for OP.

Fast and cheap and bachelor's degree don't mix

[Anonymous Coward]

I think what you're looking for is "associates degree from a 2 year technical college"

A bachelor's degree takes time and effort... that's kind of the point.

Re:Fast and cheap and bachelor's degree don't mix

[tepples]

I have an Associates degree

I think what you're looking for is "associates degree from a 2 year technical college"

No, OP is looking for something sufficient for employment.

DeVry

[Anonymous Coward]

I went to DeVry, by default their 4 year program is 3 years (because they do trimesters and go year round);

But i was 22 or something and loaded up on credit hours; I finished my 136 credit hour program in 18 months. taking something like 34-37 credit hours a trimester.
Because its a IT geared college, all of the classes made senses for what i was doing already and breezed through them; Ended up finishing with a 3.78GPA with a B.of S in Computer communications and Management. Most employers dont look where you went, just that you went and graduated. The interview is where you impress them with your knowledge.

Cost? I think over all it was something like 37-40k; The trick is not to buy books if you dont need them, if you do, borrow them or try to find used ones; Dont mess around and just push through it. In order to take that many credit hours i had to get the deans approval ever trimester. Since i had good grades it just became automatic for him to approve. Overall, i think i saved about 40k by pushing through it vs going the normal route.

As someone who now has to also interview people; most of them i make cry because they put things on their resume but are not prepared to go in-depth on the topic. If you put IP on your resume, i am going to assume you know EVERYTHING about the IP protocol including packet/frame sizes, headers etc. If you cannot even tell me the difference between tcp and udp; you need to rework your resume.

Re: DeVry

[Anonymous Coward]

40k is your idea of cheap? Ouch.

Re: DeVry

[HornWumpus]

Went to DeVry; you know he's not the brightest bulb in the pack.

Re: DeVry

[Anonymous Coward]

Right. And employers do care. They just don't tell you they chose local or from a school that teaches better material.

Re: DeVry

[SunTzuWarmaster]

My alma mater averages $210/credit hour (http://tuitionfees.smca.ucf.edu/). The engineering degree, when I graduated, was 128 credit hours. This brings the cost of the degree close to $27000 ($6000/year). It appears that GP paid 50% more than traditional education (in-state tuition) for his non-traditional degree program.

Re: DeVry

[ButchDeLoria]

Before I dropped out from inability to pay, Clemson University charged $340-510 per credit hour (at least 12, up to 18 a semester). And that was in-state costs.

Re: DeVry

[Bengie]

Mine was $130/credit with credits after 12 in a semester being free. But the other 90% was paid for by tax-payers. Non-trade students with no degrees got PAID to go to college. Fairly easy state grants for students over the age of 26, and especially parents. They will give you extra money per child to help with costs of being a parent going to school. I knew someone who was making a net profit of over $1,000/sem going to college, and a very well renown one.

University of Phoenix

[Anonymous Coward]

LOL.

The Earl Scheib Institute

[Capt.DrumkenBum]

He will sell you any degree for only $149.95
Cars painted while you study. :)

Re:The Earl Scheib Institute

[DriveDog]

ESI ! I'm an alumnus. But I went back when it was only $99.95 (plus 29.95 for a "sealer" coat). Problem with that is I assume he wants a lifetime degree, and Earl's only lasts you about 3 years. Also, at least in the past, you had to choose one of the colors, er, disciplines, they already offered. No design-your-own interdisciplinary resprays, um, degrees.

Re:The Earl Scheib Institute

[Capt.DrumkenBum]

I am so glad someone got that. I was wondering if anyone would.
I have often thought about starting my own online diploma printing company. I think I just came up with a great name for it. :)

Re:The Earl Scheib Institute

[DriveDog]

I'd like an MS in something, please.

I once wondered if Earl and the actor that played Uncle Lewis on Christmas Vacation were the same guy...

Leave the US

[Anonymous Coward]

That's the cheapest path.

Community college

[hessian]

It's relatively fast and easy to take community college courses at your own pace. You can then transfer to a full university for your final year and get the BA/BS.

Re:Community college

[PRMan]

Why would he do that? He already has a 2-year AA degree.

Re:Community college

[Hognoxious]

RTFA, you fluttering twatwad.

Re:Community college

[hessian]

He already has a 2-year AA degree.

You missed this part:

You can then transfer to a full university for your final year and get the BA/BS.

Re:Community college

[i.r.id10t]

Quoth subby - I have an Associates degree in programming and systems analysis

Hey fluttering twatwad - where does it say he has an AA degree?

I have the same degree. It is an AS. Which means no, it isn't the first half of a Batchelor's degree. Some of it is, but in order for me to go to a Comp Sci BS program (which is part of the college of engineering at the local university, so same prereqs for *all* engineering majors regardless of type of engineering) I'd have to take a 3rd english, a sociology, an art, etc. and then the real prereqs for the BS degree - get thru Calc 2 w/ differential equations, 2 physics classes, 2 chemistry classes, statistics, etc.

potential solution

[Anonymous Coward]

You can do University of Illinois Springfield online. They are accredited and offer a Bachelor's of Science in Computer Science fully online. You may need to do some courses at the community college first but if you have that done just transfer it and off you go.

Start with where you got your associates

[sandytaru]

Ask them for a list of colleges and universities that accept their courses as transfer credit. Don't want to redo work you've already done.

If your associate's place doesn't transfer anywhere at all, the good news is that your options are all open, and the bad news is that you'll have to do two years of work over again. (The other bad news is that it's a sign that no other college likes the college you got your 2 year degree from, for some reason, which either speaks to the quality of education that you received or to some underlying college political issue, and you won't know which without digging a bit.)

Re:Start with where you got your associates

[PRMan]

Also, the bad news is that the Admissions office is usually more generous about transfers than the Records office. Once you get there, you may find that your credits don't transfer as well as they led you to believe before you got there.

Re:Start with where you got your associates

[sandytaru]

Even if only half the credits transfer over, that's still less work that needs to be done - and less you have to pay for. If the originating associate's degree was worth the paper it was printed on, they'll probably let you transfer over credits from the core classes (English 101, basic math etc.)

Re:Start with where you got your associates

[HornWumpus]

He should also be aware that some schools will discount the value of old credits. Requiring testing (at least) for coursework more then 5 or 10 years old.

Further he should look for flexibility in testing for industry experience. It really sucks taking a class in a subject you know better then the teacher. Imagine taking a database course from a teacher that loves higher normal forms (read as: 'has never run a real world database').

Re:Start with where you got your associates

[Anonymous Coward]

I've had it happen where after the transfer the credits were applied to the wrong course like credits for a C++ course at community college got applied to "Intro to Computers" at the University. In the end it was easier to just to sleepwalk through a programming course again for an easy A than to get the records office to fix the error and hope that it stayed fixed when I got to graduation like another person who had it come back to bite him later.

Intelligent!

[Anonymous Coward]

Finally some intelligent conversation on Slashdot!

Fastest Way to Carnegie Mellon?

[moehoward]

A lot of practice!!

Ba-dum-da.

No seriously, there is a shortcut... Private colleges who are funded by shady government-backed loans. Didn't we just have this discussion? Or was the answer "Plastics!"?

Just got my CS degree at age 30

[Anonymous Coward]

I am about to turn 31, and recently obtained CS degree from UMBC. Like you, I initially went to community college and took basic courses in CS and math. Thereafter, transferred all of my credits to UMBC, and within 3 years (worked part time) got my CS degree.
As you see, there is no easy way of getting degree.

About 10 Minutes (not counting shipping time)?

[Anonymous Coward]

Fast, Cheap Bachelor Degrees

Easy

[Russ1642]

Send me a cheque for $300 and I'll send you a Degree.

Re:Easy

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't fall for this. Judging by "cheque", you'll get some nonsensically written rubbish from a foreign country...

Hmmmm... after typing that, maybe that is the best idea. Carry on!

Know what you're asking for

[Subm]

By the principle of "Quality, price, speed, pick any two," when you ask for price and speed, just know what you're asking for.

Re:Know what you're asking for

[Nightwraith]

Now, where'd I put those mods points...

State Schools

[ClayDowling]

Apply to a local state funded university. Talk with an admissions counselor about your goals and how well your associates will transfer (10 years old, the answer is usually Not At All). State schools provide the best bang for the buck. It also helps that their programs tend to be quite good. You also have to accept the fact that this isn't going to be convenient or easy. If it was easy to get a degree worth the paper it was printed on, everybody would have one.

If you just want to throw money at the problem and don't care about the quality of the degree, find the online program with the biggest advertising budget. Ideally somebody who can advertise on broadcast channels during prime time. The degree won't be well respected, but if you're doing this as a checkbox item it hardly matters. Just avoid taking on debt to do it. The private programs are expensive, and have a terrible track record for defaults on student loans (probably because of the expense).

Hi...

[beelsebob]

Hi, I want to pretend that I've done a bunch of academic learning, because I feel that I have the right to the title because I have some experience.

Hint: Bachelors degrees are different from experience. Experience is valuable, but it's not the same thing as academic learning, in the same way as academic learning is valuable, but not the same thing as experience. If you want a bachelor's degree... go and do one.

Re:Hi...

[Anonymous Coward]

Just add it to your resume. No one's ever going to check.

Re:Hi...

[Anonymous Coward]

That's my feeling on it too. Personally, I got a degree, and never used it. Better to rely on yourself than to rely on other people for hand outs. If your truly capable you don't need one. If your not, well, then definitely go and get one.

Re:Hi...

[metlin]

I have met a number of people who are rock solid programmers and have a deep understanding of technologies. People who can program device drivers in their sleep and have implemented a godawful number of systems over the years. People who have licked networking or embedded systems or whatever (take your pick).

Naturally, they assume that CS is the same as IT, and enter CS programs to get a degree.

And then, I have seen them fail miserably as they realize that programming does not equal discrete math, graph theory, or computational complexity. Usually, it's been a while since they've been out of school, so even simple things like Graphics 101 with vector math and basic physics isn't quite a cakewalk. Plus, I have found that they are quite limited by their own experience and biases (mostly because they've had a lifetime to learn bad habits) and find it quite hard to reconcile real world experience with the academia.

You can especially see this with older, more experienced folks in a class teaching, say, Operating Systems, Architecture, Data Structures, or Compiler Design. And it is not necessarily their fault -- their real world experience sometimes does contradict what's recommended in the "ivory tower" world. Networking is often quite the opposite, though -- it is one of those fields where real world experience proves valuable, and the experienced folks learn a little something about the math behind network routing and such.

Honestly, whenever I see someone with experience wanting to study CS, I just recommend that they get a degree in something like MIS simply because it is a way for you to move up, and it is a lot easier -- handing computer science at a later stage in your life is usually significantly harder unless you've been keeping yourself mentally challenged in math and related subjects. You are in a very different place mentally in your early 30s than you are in your late teens.

Re:Hi...

[hondo77]

... I got a degree, and never used it.

Let me guess: you're degree was in English. ;-)

Re:Hi...

[SecurityGuy]

This is very true. In my experience, actual work is about getting the job done well enough to serve a particular purpose while academic work was more likely to require delving deeper. The deeper academic delving sometimes really pays off when the real job requires just getting something to work right, right now.

Re:Hi...

[Anonymous Coward]

If your truly capable you don't need one. If your not, well, then definitely go and get one.

except for the fact that society has stipulated that you quite often need that piece of paper just to get your foot in the door for a job that will never require it. In esscence your argument is invalid and you have failed to RTFA, because the OP clearly illustrates this problem with in the first paragraph.

this is also why we have a student debt problem on our hands. i love how people love to think that each one of society's problems are not interrelated and are all individual issues with individual solutions.

Re:Hi...

[Anonymous Coward]

Not one company in my nearly 25 years of working in the business has ever done more than a cursory check of my degree - and to that extent, just that it was listed on my resume and application - and I can tell you, with no small amount of disappointment, that the stuff I studied in college for my CS degree had about zero applicability to what I eventually did for work. Sure, generic things like data structures, maybe, but my elective in "Terminate, Stay Resident development," or whatever it was, while interesting, was never touched on afterwards in my RT software dev / UNIX admin / etc career. In my case, and I'd wager many others' as well, the degree is just a checkbox on a form for a job, but nothing meaningful in reality. The OP recognizes that for what it is.

green:led

Re:Hi...

[Anonymous Coward]

Obviously, your degree was not in English.

Re:Hi...

[Anonymous Coward]

Let me guess's: your's wasn't :D

Re:Hi...

[sp0tter]

spot on. You get out of education exactly what you put into it. If you hurry through as fast as possible just to get the paperwork than you are not getting your time/money's worth. I've had classes with people like you and they are usually more interested in showing everyone how smart and accomplished they are and how they do not need the class instead of actually learning the material. When it came time for group projects these were the last people I wanted on my team.

Re:Hi...

[s.petry]

Do you omit the degrees from your resume, or do you have an education section on your resume which says you have them? Using them may be subtle, but if you keep it on your resume then you do use it. Not to be confused with flaunting it or waving it in people's faces. I use my degrees on my resume, and don't flaunt them. I will answer people when they ask, but to me experience has been more valuable to my career than my degree. My degree is Math, yet I work in CS. That used to the the way of things long ago but today CS is it's own degree.

Re:Hi...

[Anonymous Coward]

Really, that's a complete strawman. You're an asshat.

Re:Hi...

[Anonymous Coward]

Unfortunately true, as an 30+ year old who has entered university I can say it is not so easy in some ways.

I am in the last stages of completing a CS degree after working in industry for over a decade. Going back to university has been both good and bad. Math and certain theory courses have been grade killers while other programming courses have been quite nice to my learning and grade point average.

MIS is not always an academic that is available though. So sometimes you have to slog it through a CS to get the damn piece of paper just to be allowed to get back to work.

Oh and depending on which subset of our industry you are working in the degree may or may not have become a requirement in the last 5+ years. For me it became a requirement because I was working on government projects.

Re:Hi...

[rabun_bike]

Very true but you can still teach an old dog new tricks. I went back to school for the third time to get my under graduate coursework in CS out of the way so I can apply to a MS program when my youngest starts 1st grade (in about three years). I started taking CS classes in my late 30's and have 2 more courses to go and I am now in my 40's with 2 kids. What I found is that even though I have a minor in Mathematics it provided me almost no help in Discrete Math. Honestly Discrete Math taken at a large engineering university was an eye opening experience for me. The only thing that helped me was Linear Algebra and some graph theory I already knew. And it really made me angry that the US education system had shorted me so severely on what I would call classic mathematics. To catch up I put in many, many hours to do well in that class. And I did OK with with a B+. Going back to doing proofs after 20 years was a a challenge but it was not impossible. I already have a MS in Computer Information Systems but my heart is in Computer Science and so is the type of work that I do. You can take challenging courses later in life and I think it can be very rewarding. In my Data Structures class the final project was an impossible task for undergraduates. I spent hours working on the project which combined graph theory, and many different data structures and related concepts into a large final class project. I put the effort in and got a 100 on the assignment along with a single fellow classmate also in his 30's taking coursework for another masters program. We both got A+ grades in that class. The class average for that assignment was a 45 which included our two perfect scores. I then went on to take Computer Architecture and Assembler programming and had a similar experience. The undergraduate kids did pretty well on the tests and it was difficult to beat them but when it came to the projects the older students like myself could beat them hands down. We simply have many more years of experience in building things that work as well as tenacity in completing the projects to our best ability. It takes a lot of work to go back to school and complete challenging coursework but I personally have found it very rewarding.

Re:Hi...

[Anonymous Coward]

as long as we are sharing anecdotes it has been exactly the opposite for me as an older person returning to study CS..

If I could set aside the time to I'm sure I could pull off stellar grades on the projects, but I have found it more straightforward to simply ace the exams to get a passing grade.

Re:Hi...

[rabun_bike]

Very good to hear different sides of a similar story. I think it is just such a personal experience and journey that people can complete to in many different ways.

Co-op programs

[AmazinglySmooth]

My school (University of Cincinnati) requires all engineering grads to have 1.5 years of industry experience (co-op) to graduate. That means that you get paid for 1.5 years at a decent rate and likely will have an offer at graduation. Worked great for me, though, it does require a 5 year program to complete. Regardless, you get a solid grasp of the fundamentals and a job.

Re:Co-op programs

[AmazinglySmooth]

Huh? I was paid quite well for my co-op time and graduated without debt! You should shop around.

Re:Co-op programs

[mrego]

Yeah, that damn Republican Zuckerburg. What an asshat he is.

Re:Co-op programs

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, that damn Republican Zuckerburg. What an asshat he is.

That's ridiculous. He pays interns well so he is not one of those racist Republicans. Also, he hasn't tried to import slave labor, aka H1B visa victims, like that CONservative Gates. Gates hates the poor so he tries to get more and more of them to work for him for free. I don't understand why you people can't comprehend that.

Great school that is self pace, accredited and all

[Anonymous Coward]

Western Governors University. I completed my Bachelor's and Masters there in just over three years.

http://www.wgu.edu/

not so fast, not so easy

[DriveDog]

But not wasting your time... I'm all for a solid CS education and I'd give brownie points for it. But if it bugs you to study what you think you already know, then don't. I really can't imagine that a BS in CS is going to impress most hiring managers more than your dozen years of experience plus some other 4 year degree. So get the 4 year degree in something else quantitative in which you have interest. Physics, statistics, math, chemistry, etc. Take your time, and enjoy learning something outside of your normal field.

Re:not so fast, not so easy

[blue9steel]

Sadly, HR departments are risk averse and that is likely not the correct path. Often times they use a degree in the correct field as a first filter, so his resume would get dropped before it was even manually reviewed. My suggestion, find a program at a local state school and slog it out.

Re:not so fast, not so easy

[rk]

In fairness, most of the companies who have policies that work like that are fairly shitty places to work, especially in IT. Let them filter me. YMMV, of course.

Re:not so fast, not so easy

[blue9steel]

So you're enjoying early retirement then?

Re:not so fast, not so easy

[rk]

Heh. In 25 years in this field, I've been involuntarily unemployed for 7 weeks, total. With that said, I *do* have my bachelor's from a fairly respected state school. But the places I've worked few really cared about the degrees for mid-career and senior people (entry level is different). The group that didn't care includes a NASA-funded research lab at a university headed by a tenured professor, and an IT systems development group at another university, so there are even examples IN academia that are more interested in what you can do than where you may or may not learned it from. These places had a mix, from people who didn't have ANY college to PhDs, working together. "Can you get the shit done we need to get done and do it well?" is the most important criterion.

As I said, YMMV. :)

Two possible options

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm writing from Canada here, but there are two options you might consider. One is to pick a brick and mortar university with a strong online presence and see if you can get advanced standing. For example, Athabasca University in Canada (http://www.athabascau.ca/course/ug_subject/cd.php) has a strong online presence (offering many online courses,) and is good university with real-world standing.

A second option is through your local community colleges (or trade and technical schools–whatever they are called where you are.) Again speaking from a Canadian perspective, where I live, many of these have created solid bridging programs to allow diploma holders to upgrade to bachelors degrees. These are run in conjunction with a good solid university, and are quite popular.

Cheapest Colleges

[PRMan]

Obviously, your local state school is probably the cheapest.

http://www.dailyfinance.com/2009/11/09/cheapest-colleges-13-standup-schools-that-cost-less-than-5-000/

Both are meaningless...

[TsuruchiBrian]

every year, it gets harder to convince potential employers/clients that 10-12 years of hands-on experience doing what they need done, trumps an additional 2 years of general IT education.

Both are pretty meaningless if you don't actually have the necessary knowledge to do the job properly. There are plenty of people with degrees that don't know anything. There are plenty of people with lots of experience that don't know anything. I know lots of people who talk a good game, and can't deliver. There are plenty of people paying for software development that don;t know what good software is, and that's what allows these hacks to survive. The fact that you want to get a BS in computer science with doing the least amount of effort, makes me not want to hire you. What it says to me, is that you don't think the knowledge gained by going through a real CS program is very important. There is also quite a difference in quality between "accredited" computer science programs, and most employers are aware this difference. Maybe you think you know the material already, but I have literally never seen a single "self-taught" person who knew a damn about proper software engineering. Maybe you are a genius and an exception, but I also wouldn't take the word of some self-proclaimed CS/IT genius. Everyone who does computers thinks their a genius, myself included. It's a psychological disorder that's rampant in the field.

Don't be surprised if a fastest cheapest accredited degree (i.e. where you learn the least), doesn't yield the results you were hoping for.

Re:Both are meaningless...

[Anonymous Coward]

"but I have literally never seen a single "self-taught" person who knew a damn about proper software engineering"

I've seen quite a few self-taught people that are excellent.

I've interviewed hundreds and hired several dozen people. People that are good problem solvers, smart, passionate, organized, capable of doing research (can use Google) tend to excel in the long run regardless of their background.

I've hired everything from a 19 year old kid that was formerly parking trucks and selling boxes at U-Haul to someone with a PHD in CS from Stanford, both did a great job.

Re:Both are meaningless...

[Hognoxious]

The fact that you want to get a BS in computer science with doing the least amount of effort, makes me not want to hire you.

Hell yes. I mean, someone who can spot the nub of the problem and find the most efficient solution? I wouldn't touch him with a borrowed bargepole.

Re:Both are meaningless...

[TsuruchiBrian]

Sometimes the most "efficient" solution for getting money is to do a shitty job rather than spending the effort to do a good job. Efficient for him is not necessarily efficient for me.

Re:Both are meaningless...

[TsuruchiBrian]

I would also like to point out that people who don't know what they are doing will take a lot longer to complete a job to the same level of quality, if they are capable of it at all. This is more true in software than many other fields. A good programmer/software engineer can do the work of 20 mediocre programmers. And it usually takes a good programmer/software engineer to undo the damage caused by a bad programmer.

Sure hiring mediocre or bad programmers is cheaper, but you are paying them to learn (or to fail to learn) on the job.

It's cheaper to pay a good programmer $1000/day and have a finished product in 5 days, than it is to pay a dunce minimum wage and have an poorly designed, unmaintainable, bug-filled piece of shit that sort of kind of works 4 months later.

Re:Both are meaningless...

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually , a degree means everything if you are trying to get work abroad.

I was once offered a job at a US university CS department. I passed the rigorous entry process, and was declared the best and most experienced candidate.
It all went to hell when it was realized that in order to get a TN1 visa, I would need a degree - any degree, but a degree.

After a lot of stupidity and trying of options, I ended up just keeping my Canadian job.

Paper is important. Even if you have the experience, the pencil pushers and lawmakers use it as a gateway that is non-negotiable.

Re:Both are meaningless...

[HornWumpus]

You setup perverse economic incentives and complain?

If you wrote the contract or manage the employee so that doing a shitty job is the efficient way, the problem is with you. Don't complain when you get what you incentivise.

Re:Both are meaningless...

[TsuruchiBrian]

That incentive exists a priori. You can make a contract that requires "high quality" work. But unless you are a software engineer, you probably don't have a good idea of what high quality software is. It is only unitl you try to hire a new software engineer to add a feature or fix a bug, and he tells you your existing software is crap that you finally learn that you didn't get the "high quality" software you wanted.

I go through the same thing every time I hire a plumber or an hvac guy. I have to balance price with who I think will do a good job. I've been burned by people who did really shitty jobs and I found out too late. And I've been burned by people overcharging for a task that was easier than I had thought. You can't be an expert in everything and there is a good chance you are hiring someone else to do a job because you do not have expertise in that area.

And yes to be a good employer you need to use good judgement to determine if someone you hire is likely to do a good job, or whether they are actually doing a good job once you hire them. But you can't know for sure, and it takes time to become more sure. Even if you figure out the guy you hired is crap and fire him, it can still be a costly mistake.

If you make a contract that says "I won't pay you until the work is finished and it is up to my standards", good luck getting anyone to work for you for any extended period of time. They have no idea if your standards are reasonable.

Re:Both are meaningless...

[HornWumpus]

High quality software is specified, tested, code reviewed and has an acceptance process. None of these steps are free, but none of this is a mystery. As you note it also complicates contract negotiations and requires a spec and test set be developed up front (both very good things). However, it will also flush out the true hacks, who will run like frenchmen. It might also reveal who the true hacks are, which might be politically unfortunate in some offices.

Re:Both are meaningless...

[TsuruchiBrian]

And lets say you are running a business and you need to hire a software engineer or a team to develop some custom software. Someone tells you that you should also work out a good spec and test set in order to shield you in case the software team is incompetent. So now you need to hire someone to do that (presumably not the software team). You can have a contract for them requiring "high quality" specs and test sets and you have just kicked the can down the road.

If this were a science experiment to try to find a good software engineering team, I'd say the best way to do it would be to hire a bunch of teams and a bunch of independent judges to evaluate the teams, and pick the team that was judged to be the best by the most judges.

Either that or actually become a better software engineer than the teams so that you can be an authority in evaluating software, but then you already know who the best software team is (it's you).

If you are trying to pick a good software team without spending too much money, I'd say the amount of checking you should do is related to how big the job is. If you are making a simple website it doesn't make sense to spend $100,000 vetting the teams you are considering. If you are making healthcare.gov, maybe it makes sense to spend a lot of money on vetting.

Re:Both are meaningless...

[HornWumpus]

The contract for the spec and test set will be much smaller then the main one. Duh.

Carving out 20% of a project as a separate specification project is only sane. The alternative is to go into the main contract without a detailed spec and test.

You might get setback 20%, but that's much better then 100%.

You don't develop a specification and test set to shield you from incompetent contractors. You do it because you are (presumably) not incompetent yourself.

None of this is a mystery and it's not free.

Re:Both are meaningless...

[TsuruchiBrian]

The contract for the spec and test set will be much smaller then the main one. Duh.

Yes duh, but it still only increases your odds of success rather than guaranteeing it.

Carving out 20% of a project as a separate specification project is only sane. The alternative is to go into the main contract without a detailed spec and test.

Or carving out 10%, or 30%, etc

You might get setback 20%, but that's much better then 100%

and worse than 10%

You don't develop a specification and test set to shield you from incompetent contractors. You do it because you are (presumably) not incompetent yourself.

You do it because you are not incompetent because competent people shield themselves from incompetent contractors. I don;t see how these things are mutually exclusive.

None of this is a mystery and it's not free.

I never said it was a mystery. I said it is possible to get burned by people you hire to do a job, and that is true whether you take appropriate precautions or not, you are just lowering the probability of getting burned by taking precautions.

Re:Both are meaningless...

[HornWumpus]

You write specs and test for much more then protecting yourself from incompetent contractors. The contractor should want it to protect himself from incompetent clients. Everybody should want it because it's the only reasonable way to get results.

20% is just a guess (based on decades of experience) as to how much time it takes to really understand a problem, write it up and get buy in. Until you do that nobody has any idea how much the project will cost or how long it will take.

You're lowering the probability of failure and moving the knowledge of failure forward in time by making 'spec and test plan' a milestone. You are also not doing anything extra in the process.

Re:Both are meaningless...

[TsuruchiBrian]

I guess I just don't see what your point is.

I said I wouldn't want to hire a person that tried to get a degree where spending the least amount of money and time were more important than learning the most knowledge or skills.

I also said that getting a degree efficiently in this way does not necessarily mean they will be able to do their job efficiently especially if they lack knowledge that someone who cared more about learning might have.

Do you actually disagree with any of this? Would you really want to hire a person who got a degree in the cheapest quickest way possible?

Re:Both are meaningless...

[HornWumpus]

You also added, he will do the same in his contracts, you would not hire someone who got a quick efficient diploma.

I'm just pointing out: If you write bad contracts, you have nobody to blame but yourself.

Efficiency is a generally good thing. Back filling a resume for a 10 year veteran is not the same as educating a 18 year old. Different questions have different answers.

I actually think he should just get any degree. The easier the better. Basket weaving degree plus experience will hit the check boxes of 99% of employers HR departments, which is what this is all about. If he's actually a 10 year IT pro, he clearly knows how to do independent study of the things his job requires. The ones that don't, fall off in less then 10 years.

Re:Both are meaningless...

[Hognoxious]

Thing is, he probably does know what he's doing - he's been doing it for years. He needs a degree because HR have decided he needs a degree.

Also, most programming work does not need a CS degree. It doesn't need any degree, unless HR decides it does. Most programmers out there aren't busy optimising map-reduce or writing compilers. They're banging out dreary finance reporting apps for beancounters, clunky inventory control systems for warehouse managers, wanky hotel booking systems and shit like that. Payroll, ughhh.

Re:Both are meaningless...

[TsuruchiBrian]

In my experience, I would say 95% of the time you are programming, you aren't using your CS degree. You are banging out code. That last 5% is important though. You might not even necessarily need to write some complicated algorithm, but you at least need to fully understand things like time/space complexity, graph theory, or concurrency, in order to pick the right classes from a library and properly design software.

And I realize in the real world, people who don't have CS degrees write a lot of software. It is also the case that most software sucks, and I don;t think these 2 things are unrelated.

Fast, Cheap, High Quality

[sycodon]

As with everything else, Pick two.

Re:Fast, Cheap, High Quality

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

As with everything else, Pick two.

Not all options actually hug the tradeoff curve(well, in three variables, I suppose it's some sort of surface; but same idea) all that closely (if at all), so it's still a partially legitimate question... (Which state school is basically north of 10k/yr for beer pong and date rape and which one is an affordable and decent college? Is that ad for SOMEBODY TECHNICAL INSTITUTE a total scam? How much of the expense of a traditional campus can I skip without ending up in a 'MOOC' that might as well just be watching a couple of youtube videos, only more expensive?).

That said, I'd be...a trifle nervous... about anyone who "eh, just wants to get a fast, cheap, CS degree, y'know?". Unless you have purely mercenary motives(and a fairly solid estimate of how much more you could be earning if you had one from a school of a given caliber, in which case crunch the cost of going to school, opportunity and direct, compare to expected increased future earnings, and go on your value-rational-homo-economicus way...), you don't get a CS degree, definitely not a CS degree that you wouldn't be ashamed of, just for the CV.

If you are already a programmer, you know enough about CS-like things that 'CS for enrounding you as a person and enrichment' will be irrelevant, so you have two choices: Do you want to take actual, big-kid, CS for people who want a better grasp of a deeply hairy area of mathematics? Or would you be better off skipping that and focusing on software engineering/development related skills that will make your practical-applied-programming more solid, more maintainable, generally better on the logistics side?

Hard math just seems like a bad place for dabblers: If you just skate, you'll be wasted on anybody who just wants a coder, now(since they don't care about your fancy theoretical education, just your work experience); and equally wasted on anybody who wants to pick your brain, see how you think; because faking knowledge of hard subjects is hard.

This really seems like a " Do, or do not." affair.

Re:Fast, Cheap, High Quality

[scrib]

He did. Fast and cheap. Do you have some actual advice?

This guy is in a situation where he knows how to do the job, but some HR person wants to see a check next to the "BS" line. Yes, the BS line. Quality isn't important so long as he can legitimately put BS CS on his resume.

My brother is in construction and they won't promote him further without a bachelors. What kind? Doesn't matter, really. He just needs to get a degree from somewhere accredited, the sooner the better, so some paper-pusher can approve it.

It might not be fastest, but I would check local community colleges. Some offer 4 year degrees. They tend to be cheaper than the degree mills, though not as fast. Two more years really isn't very long. Good luck!

Re:Fast, Cheap, High Quality

[JWSmythe]

I've thought about going back to school for a CS degree. I've been working the field for about 20 years, and I still don't have a degree. "fast, cheap, and high quality" would be exactly what I want. I don't have the time to spend 2 to 4 years pursuing a degree. It would just be a stupid choice for me right now. I can stop working, or reduce my hours to get my degree, so I can pretty much get right back into the job I already have at the same payrate, but then I'll have new student loans to pay off.

If I could test through a CS degree, and maybe take just a few classes on things I'm not great at (like an English lit class or something), it would be worth doing.

So far, when I've talked to schools, they do say I can test out of *some* to show I already have the knowledge, but it will still require too much time which is already a careful balance between work and rest/social.

Re:Fast, Cheap, High Quality

[grep -v '.*' *]

Fast, Cheap, High Quality ... As with everything else, Pick two.

I'll take Cheap and High then.

Re:Fast, Cheap, High Quality

[Bigbutt]

Yea, I was going through Computer Learning Center back in the 80's. Couldn't even get a glance from IBM but the person with a 4 year degree in Animal Husbandry got an offer. Even though I did much better in the classes and even taught one session for extra credit.

The degree doesn't matter as long as it's a degree.

[John]

Re:Fast, Cheap, High Quality

[DoofusOfDeath]

As with everything else, Pick two.

Does that count for girlfriends as well?

Re:Fast, Cheap, High Quality

[dimeglio]

I think the value of a bachelors degree is that it's in fact hard to get and requires investment in time and money. Not to mention that universities badly need your cash.

Re:Fast, Cheap, High Quality

[sycodon]

Probably so.

Re:Fast, Cheap, High Quality

[JWSmythe]

I'm fairly confident the later is more important to the schools.

Re:Fast, Cheap, High Quality

[Snotnose]

I was in the same boat in the 80s, 7-8 years experience in 8086 assembler and C but no degree. I realized I couldn't even get a job interview without that stupid piece of paper. So I spent 4 years going to college half time, building off an already acquired AS degree (2 year college degree). Figured CS would be a waste of time, math would be useful, so I majored in applied math.
Then I realized the stuff I was interested in was in the Masters/PhD programs, I was seriously burned out, so I never went further.
BTW, in the past several years I've learned degrees from for profit colleges (Chapman, Phoenix, National, et all) never get past HR.

Re:Fast, Cheap, High Quality

[Anonymous Coward]

As with everything else, Pick two.

Does that count for girlfriends as well?

No, you can have as many as you want from this list:
Short, fat, ugly, poor, dumb, mean, etc.
Critical is an auto-include free of charge!

Re:Fast, Cheap, High Quality

[Anonymous Coward]

So far, when I've talked to schools, they do say I can test out of *some* to show I already have the knowledge, but it will still require too much time which is already a careful balance between work and rest/social.

Depending on your state of finances, reducing work hours may or may not be be feasible.

Depending on your state of health, reducing rest hours may or may not be feasible.

So if you're serious the social life has to go, if your friends and acquaintances can't handle you vanishing for 2 - 3 years, screw them.

Re:Fast, Cheap, High Quality

[JWSmythe]

People freak out if I disappear for a day. They can't handle 2-3 years. :)

Honestly though, for most people, it's a very difficult pursuit unless they're fresh out of high school. Myself, I can't just stop working for the next 2-3 years. Besides the loss of income during the period, falling a few years behind with professional experience would hurt. Sure, I'd learn some things in school, but that's a lot of practical knowledge that becomes outdated.

I'm not trying to say people shouldn't try. It's just not practical for a lot of us.

Re:Fast, Cheap, High Quality

[Phreakiture]

High quality doesn't seem to be in this asker's requirements. He already has the knowledge, he just needs a piece of paper to prove it.

Never minding that, though, I did go to university with someone who was earning her Bachelor's degree in Architecture (traditional meaning of the word - buildings, not IT). She went from start to finish in 3 years by taking on an oppressive courseload. Using this methodology, and assuming you can get your credits for your Associate's degree to transfer, you should be able to get there in 1.5 years from where you are now.

I also went to uni with someone who went from start to Master's in four years. He did it by creative border-hopping, transferring his credits back and forth between Canadian and US universities, and relentlessly bullshitting the various administrators when trying to convince them to accept his credits in a way that would be beneficial to him.

Finally, I will point out that the degree need not be in Computer Science. I have many current co-workers whose degrees are in other fields, yet here they are, populating the IT department of my particular organization. HR wants to know you have the paper, and that's kind of where it ends.

Re:Fast, Cheap, High Quality

[RockDoctor]

I think the value of a bachelors degree is that it's in fact hard to get and requires investment in time and money.

A large part of the point of a degree - particularly a batchelors - is that it requires you to think, and to work outside the area that you're comfortable with. If you're looking for a qualification that only requires time and money, then you are looking at something more akin to an apprenticeship or a work placement. Which the OP seems to have done already, with his years of successful employment in the field.

If he's just looking for something to puff up his CV and justify a higher ticket price ... then one avenue that he could consider is volunteer teaching in CS at $LocalCommunityCollege$. (Or, as my father has done since I was a teenager, at the workers Education Association. But if the OP is in America, that would probably get him a holiday in Guantanamo or something equally desirable.)

That sort of thing looks great on a CV ; it speaks highly of one's communication skills ; it's a sign of a well-rounded and grounded personality, rather than a spotty-faced youth who'll leave the project half-way through for a higher-ticket job. And it only costs the investment of time and money (at least, as an opportunity cost).

Of course, there's always the possibility that it'll expose areas where the OP's practical experience in programming doesn't give him the theoretical background to carry the teaching load. Which itself would be useful knowledge to the OP, allowing him to target his learning more closely.

Re:Fast, Cheap, High Quality

[perih60]

I think the value of a bachelors degree is that it's in fact hard to get and requires investment in time and money.

A large part of the point of a degree - particularly a batchelors - is that it requires you to think, and to work outside the area that you're comfortable with. If you're looking for a qualification that only requires time and money, then you are looking at something more akin to an apprenticeship or a work placement. Which the OP seems to have done already, with his years of successful employment in the field.

If he's just looking for something to puff up his CV and justify a higher ticket price ... then one avenue that he could consider is volunteer teaching in CS at $LocalCommunityCollege$. (Or, as my father has done since I was a teenager, at the workers Education Association. But if the OP is in America, that would probably get him a holiday in Guantanamo or something equally desirable.)

That sort of thing looks great on a CV ; it speaks highly of one's communication skills ; it's a sign of a well-rounded and grounded personality, rather than a spotty-faced youth who'll leave the project half-way through for a higher-ticket job. And it only costs the investment of time and money (at least, as an opportunity cost).

Of course, there's always the possibility that it'll expose areas where the OP's practical experience in programming doesn't give him the theoretical background to carry the teaching load. Which itself would be useful knowledge to the OP, allowing him to target his learning more closely.

i am sorry to say that an actual bachelors , or masters , do not mean that the person with one has any brains at all ! consider this , ( this really did happen to me ) the place i worked at changed one of the things i was doing there , ie , i had to move things from one place to another , this was changed and i had to move them twice as far ! two weeks later i was called into the supervisors office , he had a MASTERS , the reason he wanted to talk to me was that he wanted an explanation as to why it was taking me longer to do said work , i was in that office for over an hour , explaining that it takes longer to go 200 meters than 100 , i kid you not , at the end of the conversation " VERY STRESSFULL HOUR " he still kept asking " why are you taking so long ? " i had been working for this company for about 6 years when that happend ! then the way water from a 1500 gallon tank to another was changed and instead of the water going thru a 4 inch pipe and a distance of about 75 meters , was changed to a 2 inch pipe and a distanse of 500 meters , cos i had a lot of experience with irrigation , i knew about friction ect , this time a different super i think he had a "bachler " supervisors had to have a uni degree . came to where i was working and you gessed it , he wanted to know as to why it took longer to drain the tank !! i come from a familie that believed an education is important ( an uncle and aunt were proffesors of medicine , another uncle was a high school princible , my dad a masters of law ect . so i for the most part respect educated people ! BUT as my examples show having a sheepskin does not automaticly meen that everybody with one has brains . i left the company after 8 years , and felt a gteat weight leave my sholders !

Re:Fast, Cheap, High Quality

[perih60]

I think the value of a bachelors degree is that it's in fact hard to get and requires investment in time and money.

A large part of the point of a degree - particularly a batchelors - is that it requires you to think, and to work outside the area that you're comfortable with. If you're looking for a qualification that only requires time and money, then you are looking at something more akin to an apprenticeship or a work placement. Which the OP seems to have done already, with his years of successful employment in the field.

If he's just looking for something to puff up his CV and justify a higher ticket price ... then one avenue that he could consider is volunteer teaching in CS at $LocalCommunityCollege$. (Or, as my father has done since I was a teenager, at the workers Education Association. But if the OP is in America, that would probably get him a holiday in Guantanamo or something equally desirable.)

That sort of thing looks great on a CV ; it speaks highly of one's communication skills ; it's a sign of a well-rounded and grounded personality, rather than a spotty-faced youth who'll leave the project half-way through for a higher-ticket job. And it only costs the investment of time and money (at least, as an opportunity cost).

Of course, there's always the possibility that it'll expose areas where the OP's practical experience in programming doesn't give him the theoretical background to carry the teaching load. Which itself would be useful knowledge to the OP, allowing him to target his learning more closely.

i am sorry to say that an actual bachelors , or masters , do not mean that the person with one has any brains at all ! consider this , ( this really did happen to me ) the place i worked at changed one of the things i was doing there , ie , i had to move things from one place to another , this was changed and i had to move them twice as far ! two weeks later i was called into the supervisors office , he had a MASTERS , the reason he wanted to talk to me was that he wanted an explanation as to why it was taking me longer to do said work , i was in that office for over an hour , explaining that it takes longer to go 200 meters than 100 , i kid you not , at the end of the conversation " VERY STRESSFULL HOUR " he still kept asking " why are you taking so long ? " i had been working for this company for about 6 years when that happend ! then the way water from a 1500 gallon tank to another was changed and instead of the water going thru a 4 inch pipe and a distance of about 75 meters , was changed to a 2 inch pipe and a distanse of 500 meters , cos i had a lot of experience with irrigation , i knew about friction ect , this time a different super i think he had a "bachler " supervisors had to have a uni degree . came to where i was working and you gessed it , he wanted to know as to why it took longer to drain the tank !! i come from a familie that believed an education is important ( an uncle and aunt were proffesors of medicine , another uncle was a high school princible , my dad a masters of law ect . so i for the most part respect educated people ! BUT as my examples show having a sheepskin does not automaticly meen that everybody with one has brains . i left the company after 8 years , and felt a gteat weight leave my sholders !

im sorry but it seems that when i quoted you as parent i must have done something wrong

Re:Fast, Cheap, High Quality

[RockDoctor]

im sorry but it seems that when i quoted you as parent i must have done something wrong

[SHRUG]

It sounds as if you got some previous supervisors who had useless used-asswipe degrees. Were they, by any chance, MBAs?

I'm fortunate in that I can generally ignore the MBAs that we do have at work. They know that I can do my job far better than they can, and that they'll severely struggle to replace me. So they keep out of my way, except when declining my expenses claims.

Outside the WOMBAT (Waste Of Money Brains And Time) that comprises the office, the people that we need in the field have a good understanding of their degree field, plus a good understanding of physics, of chemistry, of electronics and signal processing, of computing, plus the ability to think on their feet and communicate the results of these skills in real time to engineers and mechanics who themselves have little respect for wankers with MBAs. (We accept an 80% drop out rate. Good people are hard to find.)

I'm pretty dubious about the utility of "humanities" degrees in general, but having had very little to do with people who admit to holding such degrees, I don't know that the majority of such people are useless wank-stains. MBAs, however, do impinge upon my life often enough to have removed most doubt. I remain open to the concept that there is an MBA out there who isn't useless, but the odds are against finding such. Science degrees on the other hand, generally mean that someone has to have at least a nodding acquaintance with reality (a degree in cosmology being a mild exception - but even cosmologists need to know what reality is, in order to avoid it).

Sounds like you did the right thing getting out of that company. The arrival of MBAs in positions of power is a bad sign. They're afraid of competent people, so they recruit more useless wankers and drive away the competent, until they've dragged the company down to their level. I view the impending retirement of the engineers and geologists who set up my employer with gloom, as there is a tier of MBA material looming in the future. Which would be about the only thing I can envisage that would force me out to run my own company.

When all employers demand the same thing

[tepples]

If this is the attitude then you do not want to work there

When it becomes a choice of either "there", 5 different employers with the same policy as "there", or minimum wage, it becomes hard to make ends meet.

Where are the online Computer Science degrees?

[Rinikusu]

I've always wondered what it is that prevents us from creating a fully accredited* Computer Science Degree (bachelor's) completely online, for cheap. I'm not talking code-school, I mean let's learn Computer Science, with all the math and non-shortcuts that entails. The "industry" might want programmers, but *I* want to be more than that, and I'd like a formal education to get it without spending $30-40k/semester and would prefer to do it at my own pace while I continue working in the field. Perhaps this needs to be a Y Combinator style start-up. Courses from Algebra (yes, Algebra), Geometry, Trig, first principles kind of stuff focusing on the WHYS not just rote memorization. Sure, you'd still need the social sciences and what not (and I would be happy to just take those at the local community college for $cheap and transfer them in), but the real meat at the real school. Hell, it doesn't even have to be accredited if you actually learn something.

This also brings me to self-taught computer scientists: I've begun an adventure down "Teach myself math from scratch" lane because, at age 40, I'm still rather annoyed at my math education in high school. I was more concerned about learning to the test, not the concepts, and that's haunted me ever since. Anyone have recommendations for learning math starting from, say, Algebra I or II level (high school) that will actually teach in a way that will be useful rather than taking a test? Stuff that will carry over into future classes as the proper building blocks, etc?

Re:Where are the online Computer Science degrees?

[peter303]

I thought Georgia Tech was stringing together a bunch of MOOCs for a discount online degee. CS is one of the few majors where there is a sufficient coverage of MOOCs for a whole degree.

Re:Where are the online Computer Science degrees?

[Drago3711]

Anyone have recommendations for learning math starting from, say, Algebra I or II level (high school) that will actually teach in a way that will be useful rather than taking a test? Stuff that will carry over into future classes as the proper building blocks, etc?

Khan Academy is quite good in my experience. You can pick and choose if you want or follow their 'knowledge map'.

Re:Where are the online Computer Science degrees?

[Rinikusu]

It's a master's degree program from what I can tell. I'd rather start at the undergraduate level. What's sad is that even though I denigrate my math skills/comprehension I've still probably forgotten more than most non-STEM people have ever learned. SIGH.

What does it mean when your biggest regret from high school at age 40 is I wish I hadn't slept through Algebra II & Advanced Math instead of "I wish I had asked Suzy out" or, I dunno, gone out for the wrestling team? :)

Re:Where are the online Computer Science degrees?

[geminidomino]

I've always wondered what it is that prevents us from creating a fully accredited* Computer Science Degree (bachelor's) completely online, for cheap.

The "For Cheap" part is the only thing.

Florida State University has (had?) an actual online Computer Science degree (AA had to be completed offline). It was actually Computer Science, too.

Algebra through Calc + Discrete and Calc-based Statistics for the math;

Operating Systems and Programming Languages (design and concepts of, not just usage)

Programming Instruction in OO (C++, not Java - gets them points in my book, may reduce them in yours) and Functional (LISP). Even some assembly for the OS course (MIPS).

It wasn't particularly cheap: same tuition cost as taking the courses in meatspace, but I came out of it feeling like I'd learned quite a lot, which is no mean feat.

Re:Where are the online Computer Science degrees?

[werepants]

Khan academy is pretty incredible and the math lectures are really excellent (IMO). They've also got a built-in practice software that is decent.

Re:Where are the online Computer Science degrees?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Scott Young's MIT Challenge yet.

He also talks about how you can put together your own degree program using a combination of testing credit (CLEP et al.) and online courses.

Re:Where are the online Computer Science degrees?

[Rinikusu]

Holy smokes, that's actually a pretty good challenge! I may have to try that myself, albeit at a slower pace. I assume (ass, u, me whatever) that he had the ability to do this with no distractions like a real job, but it's a great start! Thanks for that, although I have to say his "put together your own degree program" kinda reads like a 4 hour workweek spam.

Re: Where are the online Computer Science degrees?

[Anonymous Coward]

Kahn Academy is pretty good for learning math

Re:Where are the online Computer Science degrees?

[skothar]

Ugh. Why do people think they have to pay $30-40k/semester for an education. I got my MSCS from a state school and only paid a fraction of that. If someone already has experience, and just wants a line item on a resume, why pay Harvard prices? Which leads to my next gripe. I honestly do not understand people who go to top tier schools, rack up debt, and then whine about it. I went to a state school. I worked hard, got reasonable grades and now make a comfortable living. Going to a top tier school wasn't necessary. Like all things in life, you get out what you put in, and school is no different. An Ivy League education is not required to get a great job or make lots of money. If, after you have finished school, you find yourself burdened with "crushing debt", you have nobody to blame but yourself. tl;dr - a great education can be had for cheap

Re:Where are the online Computer Science degrees?

[theArtificial]

Anyone have recommendations for learning math starting from, say, Algebra I or II level (high school) that will actually teach in a way that will be useful rather than taking a test?

Mathematics for the Non-mathematician by M. Kline. This book begins with reason and progresses through history beginning with the origins of math. I found this very insightful. If you get stuck consider Khan Academy for some different approaches.

Re:Where are the online Computer Science degrees?

[Taxman415a]

This also brings me to self-taught computer scientists: I've begun an adventure down "Teach myself math from scratch" lane because, at age 40, I'm still rather annoyed at my math education in high school. I was more concerned about learning to the test, not the concepts, and that's haunted me ever since. Anyone have recommendations for learning math starting from, say, Algebra I or II level (high school) that will actually teach in a way that will be useful rather than taking a test? Stuff that will carry over into future classes as the proper building blocks, etc?

http://www.saylor.org/majors/m... Most complete college level open education resource I've seen. The math is pretty good, starts at algebra, and even has a bridge class "Introduction to Mathematical Reasoning" to help teach proofs and other necessary mathematical rigor to be able to tackle higher level math. You'll still need to do the work and focus on the concepts and make sure you understand, not just going for passing a test, but the fundamentals are there.

Re:Where are the online Computer Science degrees?

[Anonymous Coward]

The best way to learn Algebra is to use it. I've always liked pixel shaders for how heavy they are into mathematics. It was in figuring out how to handle spot lights inside a pixel shader where I finally understood quadratic equations.

Re: Where are the online Computer Science degrees?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm currently going to Regis University's online program which has ABET and regional accreditation and I think only accepts transfer students. The other one that I was considering was Florida State which also only accepts transfer students and is ABET and reginally accredited. The other one I was looking at before that was ASU which has a Software Engineering degree but it is brand new and wasn't ready for transfer students at the time. They didn't have any classes for me to take because all my core classes were complete.

As far as Regis goes they have 8 week classes and you can take one or 2 at a time. They go year round so you can go fast or slow if you want. If had mixed results with the instructors. I've had one guy for two classes who only grades homework and posts homework. Otherwise he's not there. The other instructors I've had have been very involved in the class and helpful. You do need to be able to learn on your own and be willing to do research outside of the class but I feel like I learn more and get a more "real world" experience because of it.

Re:Where are the online Computer Science degrees?

[Anonymous Coward]

Anyone have recommendations for learning math starting from, say, Algebra I or II level (high school) that will actually teach in a way that will be useful rather than taking a test? Stuff that will carry over into future classes as the proper building blocks, etc?

To start math over from the beginning, I would recommend reading Augustus De Morgan books on Arithemetic, Algebra, Geometry, and Trigonometry. Read the Lion's Press Euclid's elements, with help from a book like, "Euclid, the Creation of Mathematics". I would then read Augustus De Morgan's calculus book(s), and also read the modern, Spivak's Calculus, and get the answers for the problems with it. If you get to Analysis, then try Rubin's books, but I haven't gotten that far myself.

Re:Where are the online Computer Science degrees?

[Anonymous Coward]

The "cheap" part is going to be hard, at least in conjunction with "accredited".

My background - I'm a faculty member in a decent CS department (ranked somewhere in the 50-75th range), I know a little bit about ABET accreditation, and I've taught a few online students in addition to my normal on-campus classes.

From my point of view decent online education isn't fundamentally cheaper than on-campus instruction. (by "fundamentally" I mean it doesn't drop the instructional labor costs much - once you get out of the game of competing for US News undergrad rankings there are a bunch of money-wasting things that you can ignore which might drop the cost of a typical undergrad institution by 25-50%) Interaction with students and grading take time and expertise, in a field where this expertise is worth quite a bit on the job market. A distributed online institution could save some money vs industry salaries by taking advantage of geographically-disadvantaged instructors; however it still probably wouldn't be able to get away with the steep discount from market salaries that a research university gets.

There may well be ways around this - I'm interested to see how the Georgia Tech model works out - but I don't think anyone has figured it out yet.

Re:Where are the online Computer Science degrees?

[jones_supa]

Some of the early Khan videos have really smudgy drawings which are a bit hard to make sense of.

Re:Where are the online Computer Science degrees?

[Hadlock]

MIT's entire CS program is available on youtube, go hawg wild. My roommate is a graduate of Youtube U and now is a Sysadmin for 2 seperate non-profits (plus side work) and owns a yacht out of Houston. He's also finishing up a degree out of WGU but that's just icing on the cake for him.

Re:Where are the online Computer Science degrees?

[nbritton]

I've always wondered what it is that prevents us from creating a fully accredited* Computer Science Degree (bachelor's) completely online, for cheap.

There is one, it's called University of the People. You can get a complete BSCS and $4k. The school is accredited by the Distance Education and Training Council (DETC) Accrediting Commission. They also offer an associate's in computer science for $2k, and the credits will transfer to most institutions.

Someone already posted this, but for some reason it was modded it down. I speculate that the educational industry does want people to know they can get an entire bachelor's degree for just a fraction of the price.

http://uopeople.edu/
http://www.detc.org/

Re:Where are the online Computer Science degrees?

[Anonymous Coward]

The AoPS books are pretty good: https://www.artofproblemsolving.com/

Heritage

[fluffythdestroy]

Marry an old rich hag. make your way in her will. When that is done and complete, time for the evil plan, have sex till she has an heart attack. When done, wait for heritage to come in and go get your Bachelor's Degree (ps: Hide your mom from me lol)

Re:a humble suggestion.

[Nevo]

WTF? A guy wants a degree on his resume to enhance his employment opportunities and you suggest that he blow his head off? What the hell's the matter with you? "Perk" is defined as 'an advantage or benefit following from a job or situation.' Which pretty much describes the OP's intent. Just because he is interested in the practical outcomes of having a degree rather than worshiping at the Holy Altar of the Ivory Tower you think he should end his life?

Divorce or separation

[jovius]

by airplane.

Second-class colleges

[tepples]

The other bad news is that it's a sign that no other college likes the college you got your 2 year degree from, for some reason, which either speaks to the quality of education that you received or to some underlying college political issue, and you won't know which without digging a bit

In the USA, there are two tiers of institutions of higher education: regionally accredited schools and nationally accredited schools. Regionally accredited institutions tend to be more prestigious and more academic as opposed to vocational. Credits from nationally accredited schools seldom transfer to regionally accredited schools, and students have sued over this.

Re:Second-class colleges

[sandytaru]

Even within schools accredited by the same agency, some will not accept transfers from others because the schools themselves are run by different organizations. For example, in Georgia the "University System of Georgia" is different from the "Technical College System of Georgia." (GA Tech is part of the University System, so school names mean nothing.) Most USG schools will accept partial transfer credits from each other, but they'll snub the TCSG schools and may transfer little or nothing, even though many of them have the same accreditation from Southern Association of Colleges and Schools Commission on Colleges. It's political.

WTF is an "Associates In Programming"? How...

[Assmasher]

...does an accredited (presumably) school come up with that? That sounds like a trade school degree. Might as well be self-taught.

When did people stop going to college to get "educated" as opposed to "resumated"?

Check out SUNY Empire State College

[stephencrane]

They allow you to transfer lots of credits, to write essays to demonstrate life learning, and offer tons of independent study courses to top off any remaining gaps. The essays are pure gold though.

One other way that might work for you.

[agoldenlife]

Most do not consider this, and most colleges don't advertise it. One option to to look at taking an exam to pass out of the required classes for a degree. So for a bachelor's degree look for classes that you know everything about and fit the degree requirement. Most colleges allow you to pay a fraction of the cost for a class, and allow you to take a single exam. If you pass, that is your grade, or some do just a pass/fail. However if you know most of what the college requires for their Bachelor's CS degree, you can get away with the degree for pennies. I haven't looked at my local college for awhile, but I know at one point I paid like $250 about 10 years ago and then took an exam. It takes some work and research, but could end up being your fastest and cheapest route! I would also recommend if you go this route to meet with the professors or chair of the school (CS of IS maybe) and let them know what you are doing. Most of them are very accommodating and understanding of people who work full time trying to get a degree

Re:WTF is an "Associates In Programming"? How...

[Assmasher]

Oh, and get off my lawn... ;)

Inkjet printer

[Anonymous Coward]

Use your inkjet printer, and remember - better, faster, cheaper - pick any two.

rumor

[Anonymous Coward]

Around my ten year mark as a programmer I started getting self conscious about my lack of degree (10 years ago). Someone gave me the advice to only bother if I was willing to go ivy league or otherwise prestigious. They said instead of wasting money and energy on becoming generic, put the effort into actually being better than the competition.

Maybe different markets have different conditions, but I know very many in demand developers (CEOs, VPs, Directors, etc...) who have no degree. The catch is you have to really kick ass. You can't be a commodity without the degree. If you have the chops to stand out against your peers then it might be hard to justify the 6 figure pricetag and countless hours. If you need to fit in with the crowd, definitely get the degree.

Going back to college

[Anonymous Coward]

I am in the same boat. I dropped out of college (CS Degree) to work at a startup. It paid off, but I am going back to school and taking online courses from the college I was going to. The professors are working with me, so I am a special case.

I took at look at Florida State University, it is a accredited and ranked college: http://distance.fsu.edu/students/undergraduate-programs

A degree is not just a line item on a resume.

[Anonymous Coward]

          I have been seeing a fatal trend in the IT space these last few years that seem to disregard the usefulness of a college degree. Another group seems to think a degree is only valuable to the extent that it helps you get a job. Most people who actually take the time and get a degree that takes a tremendous effort are able to see what a degree provides is critical thinking skills. While some people can develop these skills without a degree few actually do.

          Critical thinking helps someone more easily form association with others, their ideas, and lets them thoughtfully consider divergent ideas in order to choose the best direction. I have worked with all forms of IT people from doctors to people who barely graduated high school to accountants/musicians turned IT and one thing that helps build a team and move a project in a unified direction is a degree. The teams can be made as true contributing partnerships as opposed to being authoritatively led. This structure builds an abstract organism with multiple brains and hands instead of one with one brain and multiple hands.

          Also I hate to sound like a conspiracy theory nut but there are plenty of people who like the one mind many hands abstraction which include politicians, religious, and military leaders. A population can only be free when there are free thinkers and free thinking can only be achieved when you understand many conflicting ideas and then are able to choose the ones you agree with. Later you should be free to change your mind and will learn to delight in paradigm crushing logic. Only one institution was designed to inundate you with perspectives and make you think for yourself, that is a university.

Re:A degree is not just a line item on a resume.

[Jiro]

He has 12 years of experience. He just needs the degree to get past bureaucrats who toss his resume in the garbage because they automatically toss out the resume of everyone without a degree. For him, a degree *is* just a line item on a resume.

Whever you go, you'll 'breeze thru' it

[Anonymous Coward]

After that much hands-on experience. That was MY experience finishing off the Associates/2yr./AS started out on in 1993-1994...

Then, in 1994, I was hired on by a Fortune 500 in my last semester for it it in 1994 as a "Programmer/Analyst", after recommendations by my professor for myself, & my then best pal there (Russian Jewish guy, was coding longer than my profs as a kid, since his Dad was a dual PhD in Mathematics & CS)...

There were initially, back then, 120 of us in the major (& only 12 survived it)

However - I wasn't done yet though!

(BUT, I took more languages than I had to, way, Way, WAY more in fact, for the degree - in other words, I had MORE than the required 60 cr. hrs. in the NY SUNY System, but not SOME of the "requirements" like the Science (non-CS) sequence for example, I had 1/2 of it though, like 80 cr. hrs. worth, & GLAD I did...)

Still - I always wanted to go back & finish it... & did the last of the work a few years back (2010) between jobs to do so. 90 cr. hrs. into the Bachelor's now.

(However, I already have 1 of those, pretty much MORE valuable in the long haul too, in an MIS concentration/minor in it via the B.S. Business Admin degree from ANOTHER school, far more 'prestigious' too).

Yes - It's coming in handy, ONLY REALLY NOW THOUGH for THIS field, in the field of MIS for me (due to the "layoffs"/"downsizing" going on via offshoring US jobs to cheaper/lesser paid foreign coders - which DOES work out for me as I know other languages (e.g. Polish))...

Anyhow/anyways: WHEN I went back, I *think* I only studied, TOPS, maybe 5 hrs. per semester - because of nearly 17++ yrs. of "hands-on"/"in-the-trenches" actual work experience (mostly databasing information systems stuff largely, professionally)...

Thus, I thought I'd wish you well on it, giving you some "cheering up" (for lack of a better expression here) on how much SIMPLER & EASIER it will BE for you, because of your experience... heck, my prof.'s (not all but most) KNEW I was older, & from discussions, they were like "Here to finish the paper, right?"... Right.

APK

P.S.=> That's been MY experience there @ least for what it's worth... hope YOU experience, the same. You STILL learn new things though, & yes - you can SHOW even "old dogs a new trick", which when I was challenged by, believe it or not, a man teaching since 1966 as my prof. in 1994 & still there just about to retire @ the SUNY school for the AAS, how to swap 2 values with only 2 vars (I used math, integer data works with my technique, - + vs. xor) & he shook my hand... I found it OOD, that teaching SO long, he'd never used or seen it... just goes to make my point is all. It happens, to the best of us.

(Jjust when you "thought you knew it all" which is DAMN near impossible in this art & science since it changes SO fast)).

Knock it out, & good luck... apk

Lie

[tom229]

Just put on your resume that you have a BSc. They'll never require proof and they're idiots for demanding you have one anyways.

Re:Lie

[timeOday]

Even if he declined to accept any offers obtained by lying about a degree, it would be interested to see if it helped him to get more offers. As it stands, it could be anything - a declining market in his technical specialty, or in the region where he lives, or a slip in the freshness of his skills, or age discrimination.

Re:Lie

[Shados]

Write a resume that includes a CS degree at Carnegie Mellon, MIT, Cal Tech, whatever...then fill your employment history with Starbucks barista, scratching monkey's backs, picking your nose and for good measure, add a sabbatical as part of your job history too.

You're still gonna get half decent offers if you can pass the phone screen.

Re:Lie

[Anonymous Coward]

Just put on your resume that you have a BSc. They'll never require proof and they're idiots for demanding you have one anyways.

I agree, my resume says I was a senior software engineer at the NSA. No one is going to tell them I wasn't. I also briefly mention my previous job as head torturer at the CIA.

Re:Lie

[Bonobo_Unknown]

How naughty is it to lie on your resume? I mean are we talking a faux pas that will get you scowled at and potentially lose your job or are we talking fraud that could land you in prison?

Re:Lie

[jones_supa]

Just put on your resume that you have a BSc. They'll never require proof and they're idiots for demanding you have one anyways.

That's not cool.

IT != CS

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm getting pretty annoyed that Computer Science is often equated to Information Technology. Yes, as a Computer Scientist chances are you know a fair amount of IT admin, but an IT admin cannot be expected to write a compiler or operating system. The two fields are separate and distinct.

If you want to know more about optimisations in programming, complexity analysis, design of large programs, compiler construction, simulation design and development, etc... Then by all means get a Computer Science degree.

If you instead want to learn more about how to design and configure large networks, the ins and outs of LDAP, SMTP, domain configuration, network config and all that, then pursue IT. Many colleges offer a Bachelors or Masters in Information Technology. Though I've found a 4-year piece of paper only gets you so far, what many employers are eyeing now are the big certifications, such as Security+ or the CISSP. Neither of those certs require a Bachelors, and the median income for someone with a CISSP is low 6-digits.

Worked for me

[NoImNotNineVolt]

Get a degree in Electrical Engineering from your nearest State University, filling all your elective credits with Computer Science courses.

Gets you access to all those "4 year degree" tech jobs, plus a whole slew of other tech jobs that you didn't know existed. That's what I did because I didn't want to pigeonhole myself into a field that is rife with bubbles and outsourcing. Worse case scenario, if at some point I can't find work writing code, I can try to get a job with the power company, a telco, etc.

Re:Worked for me

[HornWumpus]

He's got to watch the pre-requistes.

Unless you are planning on an Engineering degree, your first 2 years aren't going to equal the first 2 years of engineering. First two years of CS won't generally do it (or course that varies, there are few rigorous CS programs).

Unless he completed his calc, physics and diffeq as part of his associates he isn't going to get an EE in two years.

I'd recommend he go the opposite way. Easier degree just to have a bachelors on the resume. Even business, just to get the stamp.

Re:Worked for me

[NoImNotNineVolt]

What kind of computer science program doesn't cover calculus up through differential equations? How are you supposed to understand asymptotic analysis without L'Hopital's rule? Granted, physics probably isn't a specific requirement, but don't most computer science degrees require at least two semesters of hard science (with lab)? I know mine did, just for the associates, and this was at a county college.

Re:Worked for me

[HornWumpus]

Many CS programs only require Calc for business majors. Which won't prepare you for diffeq. They sometimes touch diffeq as part of the coursework, but they no more 'have it' then people who take stats pre-calculus have statistics. My engineering calc/diffeq was 16 credits total. 5/5/3/3 and was taught along side the physics that used the math.

Engineering requires the physics sequence. Usually 2 or 3 semesters, 10-12 credits. Plus modern physics for EEs. Plus an elective science or two.

If you haven't finished all that in your first two years, you aren't graduating in four.

Re:Worked for me

[TheSync]

Good EE programs require also vector calculus (div, grad, curl) so you can prove why a coaxial cable works, etc.

Re:Worked for me

[PanchoVilla]

First a better idea would be computer engineering not electrical engineering. Computer engineering replaces things like electrical fundamentals and dynamics with more CS type coursework which he is more likely to have already. His goal is fastest, and making up 30-40% of a year worth or pre-engineering courses doesn't sound like a good way to do what he wants.

Re:Worked for me

[HornWumpus]

Computer engineering still requires the engineering core. All engineering degrees do. That's Calc, Physics and one course from each large group of engineering disciplines (I took Statics and Materials, Thermodynamics and Circuits I, not sure if General Chem counted but everybody took it)

Dynamics is a mechanical engineering course. EEs/CompEs take the same 'material'* as part of their circuits sequence.

I've never heard of any program where CompE will get you out of circuits, fields, control systems, solid state. Can you name one?

*It's the same 'material' because it uses the same math.

Keep your costs down

[Zontar_Thing_From_Ve]

Wherever you get your degree, don't run up a fortune in debt to pay for it. It would be better to not get it at all then to run up, say, $30,000 or more of debt to pay off - in my opinion. I do agree with you that it probably really is harder and harder to get jobs without a 4 year degree. I've seen this happen to IT people I know who don't have 4 year degrees and get laid off.

CLEP + Any University that accepts CLEP credit...

[oneiron]

This is, without a doubt, the fastest way to get your bachelor's degree. You can study at your own pace, and you can take tests for materials that you already know without investing time into the studies.

SUNY... apk

[Anonymous Coward]

Right down to the Community College level in fact, & they're pretty good (& I've been coding as a pro since 1994) - you take good courses, my fav. was "datastructures" in fact... & come RIGHT down to it, since YOU said it? Hey man - come on: ANY field can be an "auto-didactical" (is there such a word, lol?) exercise, taught to one's self. Look @ Ramanajan (sp?) in math for Pete's sake... it IS, doable.

You *might* try to "knock" that, or SUNY, but the best schools tend to be in the Northeast US traditionally & I truly DO believe that ANY schooling is what YOU make it (how much you put into it etc.)

APK

P.S.=> You should see the film "Good Will Hunting" & especially "The Bar Scene" on YouTube... lol! apk

Re:SUNY... apk

[asylumx]

(& I've been coding as a pro since 1994)

I can tell by your syntax that you learned to code in the early 90s....

Re:SUNY... apk

[dcollins]

Good god, take a remedial writing class, please.

Re:WTF is an "Associates In Programming"? How...

[Anonymous Coward]

right around the time when hiring managers started ignoring education and started hiring diplomas.

Deploma Mill

[Anonymous Coward]

I currently have 5 doctorates, 6 masters, and 4 bachelors degrees. All from diploma mills.

I would NEVER list them on a resume or a job application!

I did have one company that did a background check and found an online reference to my name via one of the diploma mills listing a graduating class. HR called me in and demanded to know why I did not tell them I had a Doctorate. I explained that it was a diploma mill and not something I list on my resume or job applications. They demanded that I provide them a copy of the diploma as well as and transcripts I had. I tried to refuse but they threatened to fire me if I did not provide it.

I was shocked when I got my new nameplate for my cube and it read Dr. XXXXXXX

(Posting anon because I am using up mod points.)

Re:Deploma Mill

[HornWumpus]

Call me Reverend HornWumpus please. I've got the paper.

Computer screening

[ryzvonusef]

Maybe there was a Computer CV screening, and the boss, instead of bothering to hassle with the programming, just made the three into a four?

Get your company to pay for it

[dont_jack_the_mac]

A lot of government research entities will pay for your advanced education (Georgia Tech Research Institute, Sandia Labs, etc) because they value advanced degrees. I know this works great getting MS degrees. You just have to sell your soul to the same company usually for an additional 4 years. I recommend you just get a BS degree with a decent in-state public school. Usually you can help pay for tuition by working for the school as a TA or Research Assistant.

Really?????

[Anonymous Coward]

Seriously,

not to sound "all High and Mighty" but seriously.. is this a question for your guidance administrator @ your local highschool?
Also, based on your statement and the requirements, how can you quantify whether or naught the education you are paying for cheaply is relevant?
I really do not think this type of question is for this forum? I think, feel and believe this should be addressed on Yahoo questions, etc., perhaps your LOCAL HIGH SCHOOL, a local Junior college, or unemployment development.
I can appreciate the willingness to reach out and ask, but would this question be raised during Hmmm,, Open heart surgery, brain surgery, while operating a Bradley a117 tank, while firing a gun, or how about while driving and INDY 500 race??

I know my examples may be a little x-treme, but how much off base are they, given the circumstances?

Moving past all of that, Most "successful geeks" dont go through the normal channels of education. Which I believe makes them more well rounded, suited for the job @ hand, and or more productive in various areas..

Most people on the college track seem to be too structured, resistant, not broadly educated narrowing focus, and at times are unable to cope with "thinking outside of the box." because of this @ times and or certain situations makes them un-employable, and or incapable of demonstrating the correct skill set.

Just because you have a paper doesnt mean you have the education or are able to demonstrate the skill sets required..

If you want quick and superficial look on line for Fake degrees, it may satisfy your requirement, and add the same amount of Value, with the expected results.

Thanks and have a truly positive thought provoking day,
ME

Park University online

[yoctometer]

I was in a similar situation several years back with an associates degree in computer programming/systems analysis. I got a BS in computer science from Park University. Make sure you talk to a counselor there since the CS degree (at least in 2007) wasn't listed as a degree you could get online. I talked to a counselor and it turned out that after considering transfer credits from my associates degree, I was able to take all my remaining classes online except one. I had to go to a local community college and take Calculus II and then transfer the credits to Park. I was also able to be exempted from a couple of the intro programming classes based on work experience. Total cost to me was about $10,000 and it took two years.

Get a job.

[Bruinwar]

Get a job doing support, call center, help desk, whatever, with a company that has tuition reimbursement. Get most of it done at a community college as they are usually easier & better schedule wise for the working adult. Just be sure it has a transfer program to a state college so your degree has a better name on it. This worked well for me.

University of Slashdot!

[Anonymous Coward]

On slashdot the BS is fast and free!!!

Re:University of Slashdot!

[Hognoxious]

Just make sure to enrol on the BS and not the Beta-BS.

Some questions and suggestions

[Anonymous Coward]

It would be helpful to know in which country you live. In Europe in many countries a bachelor is a three or even four year program. Depending on the country you could get your work experience accredited. Furthermore, you may learn a lot in 10 years on the job, but most people do not get a good theoretical background on things. However, these allow you to leverage your skills. If you live in Germany you could take the courses on the side for some years and then graduate. In the UK thins approach might be too expensive, but they largely accept work experience as course points (of course you have to do exams).

An actual 21st century example then... apk

[Anonymous Coward]

Try THIS on for size (a good mix of OOP & Procedural) http://start64.com/index.php?o...

* The GOOD results it yields for users of it enumerated there? Undeniable...

APK

P.S.> The "infamous 'they'" say "A picture paints a 1,000 words" well... that, literally was "painted in" roughly 35,000 hand-written lines of Object-Pascal 7.1 (stayed away from 3rd party libs a 'competitor' of mine uses etc. & only API stuff used with the language itself) - says more, by far, as to your judgement... apk

Re:a humble suggestion.

[Anonymous Coward]

WTF? A guy wants a degree on his resume to enhance his employment opportunities and you suggest that he blow his head off?

If he only wants the degree to pad his resume, then pretty much.

Asshats with half-assed degrees devalue the meaning of having a degree for those of us who actually earned them.

He just wants letters to throw after his name, not an education. The OP says learning something would be a perk, but not necessary since he just wants the letters. In other words, he's a complete douchebag who just wants to pad his resume.

If that's all he wants it for, just fucking lie on your resume and stop pretending you can magically join the ranks of people who got a real education.

Re:a humble suggestion.

[Anonymous Coward]

Nah, the guy just wants a university of phoenix piece of paper, he doesn't want to learn anything of value. He's already got a crappy associates from some no-name school. If he actually wanted to learn he'd be doing it (or have done it) already.

The less people we have going to school for the wrong reasons, the better. If you're honestly not interested in learning there is absolutely no reason to go to a 4-year university and put in the work for a degree. People are being told that they have to do this to find employment, but he'd be better off getting out of IT and becoming a plumber.

As long as they don't use Twitter to communicate

[sizzzzlerz8429]

Might be awkward, otherwise.

Fake It?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not a proponent of falsifying documents, however; if you have the necessary skills to complete the jobs. Why waste your most valuable commodity, (time) in order to appease a checklist system that values 'achievement' over knowledge and experience. A good friend of mine has a bachelors in IT management, but I as a high school 'early retiree' wrote his final project, he got his grade and his piece of paper that says he knows xyz. Education is only as good as what you use it for, I don't see any benefit in your case to go back to school.

Exactly

[ProfBooty]

CLEP is something that should be at the top of the discussion. Get many of your gen ed requriements out of the way for $80 a class.

http://www.artofmanliness.com/...

also has a ton of hints.

Re:Great school that is self pace, accredited and

[qbzzt]

I got my M.Ed. there. The main advantage of WGU is that it isn't class based but competency based. You do assignments (and tests) to prove your knowledge. They don't really provide much in the way of materials, but if you already know it and just need the diploma you can advance very quickly. It is ~$3000 for an all-you-can-study semester.

Re:WTF is an "Associates In Programming"? How...

[blue9steel]

Around the end of the power of labor in the late 1970s. What rock have you been hiding under?

A two year diploma is not a degree

[msobkow]

The minimum for an accredited degree program is 3 years; 4 for an advanced degree.

Two year programs are tech school stuff, and will not get your foot in the door any easier than the 10-12 years of experience you have.

upper peninsula of Michigan

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

I hired a guy who was in a small time band for 20 years after high school. Traveled all over US. No one ever paid an admission price to hear them. Hotel lobby. Restaurant. Etc. Decided to get a degree at age 40. 20 years of travel showed him the cheapest place in USA. Upper peninsula of Michigan. Mich tech or some such place. Finished degree in three years with summer session. Started as entry level coder at age 44. One of the smartest guys I have met. He joined and enjoyed our London times cryptic crossword puzzle group. So go north young man.

not needed

[dasgoober]

I have 13+ years of IT. Went to community college for 2 yrs, then State school for 1, where I dropped out.
I just put "University: [state school name]" and it passes most filters .. very few ask if I graduated; if they don't ask, I don't bring it up.

Doesn't seem to have hurt me, so far.

Flawed assumption

[Anonymous Coward]

The programming landscape has changed so much in the last decade that a degree earned 10-12 years ago would be just as "worthless" as an AD: none of the popular languages today existed 10-12 years ago. (I don't count COBOL and Perl as popular.) An interviewer discriminating against your AD on this basis isn't worth working for.

Re:Flawed assumption

[Jiro]

The interviewer who is worth working for is the one willing to give him a job in which he can earn money to eat and pay rent.

Never ever ever

[Anonymous Coward]

give your money to any college

ever

it's the biggest lie and rip-off ever devised by man to prey on young people to put them in a life of debt

me? No college, self made millionaire, could make any university grad look silly retarded as I code hoops around their dumbasses. real life experience and passion always beats the fucked up things they "teach" you in college.

If you want to be a slave for a corporation, schlong riding someone else's idea, being nothing more than a pawn, then go to college! That's the perfect certificate indicating you are a subservient indoctrinated slave.

Corporations need good little slaves and that piece of paper is their top choice.

"Rinse, Lather, & Repeat"... apk

[Anonymous Coward]

Since an unjustifiable downmod's all you had last time http://ask.slashdot.org/commen...

* :)

APK

P.S.=> Better luck next time, & get your PhD in English before you attempt to critique others' writing style arbitrarily - then, I just *might* pay you a LITTLE 'heed' (but, not much)... apk

Move out of the US

[spasm]

Just about every developed country other than the US provides highly subsidized tertiary education, making it much much cheaper than the US (in some cases free). So move to another country then enroll. Downside is you may have to marry a local or do something similarly complicated to get residency. :)

Re:Move out of the US

[vuo]

Mod parent up. Having to pay big $$$ to get a degree is something that happens in developing countries and the U.S. only. Admissions by merit is the rule - only diploma mills and other "not actually universities" would accept cash. Also, don't believe the "freedom fries" neocon story, Americans are well-received abroad. You already know English; you don't have to be fluent in any other language except if you go to a large country where people don't strictly need to know other languages (so forget Germany, France, Russia and Brazil). Of the checkboxes in the HR form, you get not only the Bachelor's degree, but also international experience. That, and you might also actually learn something.

As for Finland, there are a lot of AMK's that are quite easy to get into. They get funded by the government based on student numbers, so they have an incentive to accept students. These are 3-4-year degrees, but I believe you can negotiate to get the Associates studies included. (Such a degree doesn't exist in Finland.)

Experience for University Credits

[Anonymous Coward]

At most accredited universities, your ten years of real-world experience can be assessed via a learning portfolio and translated into university credits. I was in the same situation as yourself and got the first year credits for the price of one course.

University of the People

[Anonymous Coward]

As of February, University of the People is nationally accredited (DETC) in the U.S. The program is tuition free, but you're still required to complete exams. The exams cost $100 each, and there are 40 exams for a bachelor's degree. Though that might be lessened with the associates. There is also a small registration fee ($10-50).

Fuck the professor

[Anonymous Coward]

Sex usually gets things pretty quickly.

+1 Khan academy, mod parent up

[Fubari]

For math Khan academy is worth checking out; I don't know why parent is modded zero.
Probably good for other stuff too, it was the math that caught my eye.
https://www.khanacademy.org

Some cool video (give the first one five minutes... I think you'll like it):
Salman Khan talk at TED 2011 (from ted.com)
TEDxSanJoseCA - Salman Khan - (Sequel to talk at TED)

Don't lie or mislead

[Petronius Arbiter]

Making a false claim on a resume, even if not caught for years, has, in the last few years, gotten a senior MIT administrator and a company CEO fired.

The federal government sometimes checks items that are 20 years old on your resume.

Using an unaccredited PhD got some Ryerson University faculty in public trouble.

Don't even mislead or be ambiguous. If I read a resume that says, "attended Miskatonic", I assume 2 things. 1) The writer didn't graduate. 2) He wants me to think that he did.

Do not say that you attended Harvard if you went only to the Summer School.

Know your market. Some places value the degree quality and some do not. In the latter case, WGU or Excelsior are fine.

CS accreditation is optional and sets only a very low bar. MIT was not accredited until relatively recently. Accreditation is a hassle and everyone already knew that they were good.

Engineering accreditation is not optional. Stanford was threatened with losing their EE accreditation if they made a proposed change that probably would have been an improvement.

It's unintellectual scum like you...

[Anonymous Coward]

... that are killing undergraduate education. If you think BS_diploma == status_symbol then you should fuck off and never attend university.

University isn't for people who place speed of completion and easiness program above all else.

Western Governor's University

[nobuddy]

WGU is fully accredited, same accreditation as a state university. It is completely self-paced, there are no classes- just suggested reading and references to self-teach. You simply test for each subject's final exam whenever you are ready to do so. Testing is stringent, and is done in proctored centers (usually a local state or community college testing center).

You pay by the semester, and if you test out 4 years in that one semester, you are done- here is your diploma. I did it, transferred my associates from a military school and dove in. 2 semesters later, I had a BS:Information technology to hang on the boss' forehead. Could have done it in one semester, but I burned out/got lazy at the end and went long. With things like OpenCourseware, KhanAcademy, and similar for resources, you can learn any topic.

Link:http://www.wgu.edu/

No College for Me.

[wdhowellsr]

I'm not sure on which area of programming you are focused, but until recently I was doing contract development exclusively and more often than not beat out people with Bachelor's and even Master's.

That being said, the reason I've been successful has nothing to do with intelligence or years of experience. I have gone out of my way to find contracts with Fortune 500 companies starting in 1994 with EDS followed by Blockbuster / Viacom, Sprint, Disney, Darden and other well known companies. I've actually taken less money to work for some of these companies because I know that people read our resumes very quickly and look for things that stand out.

Degrees over almost everything else are important if not critical if you are looking for temp to perm or contracts with companies that require it, obviously. However, you could hand two resumes to someone with absolutely no knowledge of programming and they will immediately recognize the names and form a strong opinion.

Another thing that I believe has brought me success is the fact that I decided in 2004/5 to focus exclusively on N-Tier, .Net, C# enterprise web applications. I've actually passed up contracts even though it might be another week or two so that I can maintain a resume that speaks clearly to a specific technology. The bad thing about web development is that it changes faster than Florida weather. The good thing is that if you keep up with the cutting edge technology such as Angular, SignalR, Breeze and anything else that is coming up you will never want for work.

While my post title, "No College for Me" may offend a lot of people, my belief is that you must do what you can to be marketable and stand out. If I stand side by side with someone with exactly the same experience and focus, they will get the job if they have a degree. On the other hand, I landed the contract at Blockbuster / Viacom in December of 1996 because I had just received a Microsoft Certified Professional certification in Windows 95 so had a large logo at the top of my resume. I am currently working on my (they keep changing it) Microsoft Certified something relating to developing applications. When I put that at the top of my resume I believe that it will again trump most if not all degrees.

On a related note, I went to Orlando Code Camp this weekend. There were 789 males and one scarily hot Goth girl with a mini skirt and some disturbing yet erotic tattoos. Damn, I'd like to see her code.

Khan Academy

[nobuddy]

Khan Academy has a pretty good math program, up to high school AP math courses. Videos, problems, references, etc.

Do you really want to work there?

[Anonymous Coward]

I've found places this serious about degrees attract those with little real world experience, but the ability to talk over anything you will provide of value. It will not be a pleasant experience.

Find a job that values quality work completed over the ability to impress your boss with unusable knowledge. It may not pay as much at first, but it is more satisfying AND your real-world experience will quickly be valued. I'm working at such a place and within 6 years my salary has gone from $55k to $95k (although, sadly, they've become less of the company that values work output and more of the buzzword bingo company your typical BSc required for janitorial services company is).

You will have to search a bit harder. Will it take you 4 years? No. 6 months, tops.

The University of St. Lucia

[Anonymous Coward]

or St. Kitts. Or Virgin Gorda. Or Isla Tortuga. Or... well, you get the idea. They are accredited by the Institute of Ron Bacardi. All 100% above board!

IT != CS; Certifications mean admin only positions

[Anonymous Coward]

First of all, an "IT" job != to a job using computer science skills. Maintaining/operating/upgrading systems infrastructure is most definitely NOT related to the science/engineering work involved with creating a new hardware device, or writing device drivers, or compilers, etc. Secondly, being "certified" means you know how to operate that companies gear, nothing more. Which often limits you to being hired to be an admin of .
There is absolutely nothing wrong with doing IT or being CSSP/etc. certified if that is your goal/set of interests.

But if your goal is to [be part of the team that] creates a new widget, there are often deeper skills required. Computability & Automata; Probability; Assembly language (for more than one class), Computer Architecture. Etc. In which case a CS degree can make the difference.

Can you get a foreign passport?

[Anonymous Coward]

Depending on your parents or in some cases grandparents nationality you might qualify for a foreign passport. Said passport might allow you to study in that country for a lot cheaper (remember a EU nations passport gives you access to most of Europe). Plus you get to travel to a cool new country and live there for a few years.

Re:WTF is an "Associates In Programming"? How...

[Assmasher]

Unless you're talking about DeVry graduates, there weren't "programming" degrees in accredited colleges in the early 90's. The closest you could come was a CS degree from a non-liberal arts school so you could just do the CS portions and didn't have to get a well rounded education since you could skip things like liberal arts electives.

What college did offer them before 1995?

BS-MS-PhD

[woboyle]

We know what BS means. MS == More of the Same. PhD == More of the Same, just Piled Higher and Deeper! GA Tech is an accredited (and good) university. They won't let you into a Masters program without a BA or BS of some sore, and that means from an accredited institution. I would suggest that you do what my daughter is doing, and take as many courses (night or correspondance courses if necessary) from your local state college as you can (or can afford) until you get your BA/BS degree. Then, you will have your "credentials", value notwithstanding. Me, I am a non-degreed engineer, and a full member of the IEEE because of experience and recommendations from colleagues who have PhD's in the CS field (and have been university professors), and in one case is the current President of the IEEE-USA, Doctor Gary Blank. I have pretty much always been able to get a job that I applied for, but 30 years of experience, publications, and patents to my name have helped cross that divide. So, you can join the IEEE as an Associate Member (BS not needed - just adequate experience), get some recommendations from colleagues who are members and have serious credentials, and you also can become a full member. Since the IEEE ONLY accepts for full membership those with at least a BS, or experience and recommendations from members in good standing, this is a major leg up, so to speak.

Mod Parent Up

[Anonymous Coward]

Mod parent up, $4k for a BSCS is a good deal! They also offer associates degrees in computer science or business administration for $2k, with credits that should be transferable to a four year school of your choice. They're an accredited distance education school by the DETC accrediting commission.

But, it is highly Microsoft technology focused

[Anonymous Coward]

I doubt they can even spell Linux there.

Print your own certificate

[flyingfsck]

Come on, what is cheaper than that?

You don't mind if it's online.Do you mind UK-based

[InsectOverlord]

If you're interested in a MSC online and don't mind if it's from a UK university, you might want to check out the University of Liverpool. I think they will accept you on this one. Price was around 18,000 GBP 4 years ago. Some modules are a breeze but others are a PITA; the modules involving group work can be an interesting experience or a really painful one, depending on your group. Their collaboration tools were message boards and crappy Java-based chats and whiteboards; a few fellow students couldn't use voice chat or better collaboration tools because of Internet censorship in their countries, and some other students were rather incompetent. Once you start a module, you're committed to turn out weekly assignments for eight consecutive weeks. They claim you can complete it dedicating between 10 and 20 hours a week, but prepare to work more if you're unlucky.

So I'm not exactly selling it but if you're interested don't be put off; my experience is anecdotal and their website looks pretty different now, everything might have changed. Ask around if you can (I think they have a forum on LinkedIn).

Re:a humble suggestion.

[Anonymous Coward]

You are quite a retard.

not sure about fast, but cheap and can do working

[nomadic]

http://www.londoninternational...

GA Tech MOOC-based MSCS

[tipo159]

I would gladly consider something like the new GA Tech MOOC-based MSCS degree program — in fact, I applied there, and was turned down. After the initial offering, they rewrote the admissions requirements to spell out the fact that only people with a completed 4-year degree would be considered, work experience notwithstanding.

Also, don't bother to apply if you got your 4-year degree more than a few years ago, work experience notwithstanding. The application process requires recommendations and the online recommendation form is completely oriented towards coursework. If your recommenders aren't former classmates or professors, it will be hard for them to complete the form.

I can't believe that no one has mentioned the "big

[Anonymous Coward]

Excelsior College, Thomas Edison College, and Charter Oak State College all have online degrees with computer science options. You can earn credit for life experience and test out of most subjects.

What about distance learning?

[Anonymous Coward]

In South Africa we have a distance learning university that's officially accredited called University of South Africa (UNISA - http://www.unisa.ac.za/). Most of the course work is delivered online and there are several Bachelor of Science streams available with majors in various disciplines. I think the tricky part with "online" courses is that the written tests cannot be properly vetted online (for example, you can just pay someone to write the test in your place). Therefore, as with most distance learning colleges and universities, you need to physically sit down for the actual tests.

I would be very surprised if your State or county didn't have a college offering similar programs. And usually these part-time or distance learning study programs are far more inexpensive than full time study.

Live elsewhere

[Anonymous Coward]

Easy solution: live in a country with free higher education.

Here in China.

[Anonymous Coward]

I have the same problem here in China. I dropped out when I was 16 years from high school and I have worked nearly 15 years since then. At present I am working as a professional(well, unrelated to IT though).

My immigration application to a certain country was turned down because I didn't have a diploma, even if I met all other requirements perfectly. Nah, you can imagine policy-makers are inflexible everywhere, in China, in U.S, or anywhere else.

I am in the middle of going through the official adult education program at present. It'll take at least 2 years to pass all the bunches of exams. After successfully defending my treatise, I will be able to get the degree.

The cost is low, 100-150USD for the registration of all these exams.

Maybe you have similar programs in your country?

Short answer: Fraud

[coinreturn]

I know of a guy who just called around to universities until he found someone with the same name who graduated about when he would have. Instant degree.

Check for articulation agreements

[yenic]

Call the heads of the departments for the associates degrees you hold, and ask them if they've signed any articulation agreements with any state universities. You're going to get a horrible transfer deal otherwise, and spending closer to 3 years to get your degree. I started off by getting an Associates of Applied Science for Local Area Network Management. I ended up being limited to 1 school choice and 1 major, which was very disappointing but I did get a nice deal on the transfer saving a lot of time and money.

If I could go back to 18 again and be starting school over again, I probably would have just gotten an AA in Liberal Arts to save money, and then transfer wherever and for whatever I felt. But that's not the situation for me or you. :) You should be ok if they have any sort of articulation agreements though, and good luck!

Math from scratch

[Anonymous Coward]

Try Khan Academy. It has a really good knowledge map that can help you fill in the holes.

Comment on this story...

[Anonymous Coward]

State University of New York Empire State College offers a fully online BS in Information Systems and gives college credit for work experience. The new Open SUNY+ program has additional support for online students.

See more about the online BS in Information Systems -- http://www.esc.edu/degrees-programs/undergraduate-aos/bs-smt/

See more about Open SUNY+ for online programs - http://open.suny.edu/

State college...

[nessman]

... but really doesn't matter what your degree is in. As a hiring manager, I could care less if you majored in basket weaving or circle jerking. So long as you have the experience I need - then you resume doesn't make a bee-line to the recycle bin. But to me - a college degree (especially a 4-year degree) demonstrates to me that you have goals, forward looking thinking and most importantly, you finished what you started. Bonus points if you went away to college, learned a little bit about life, got laid and didn't spend 10 years after high school scratching the inside of your mom's uterus.

Re:You have the problem, not I... apk

[dcollins]

It's not business correspondence, nor a grade in academia.

But the reason that all your posts are downmodded into oblivion is that no one wants to see or spend time decoding your hellacious writing. If that's happening on a casual internet forum, then just think about how much it's costing you elsewhere in your life, that you don't even get to see directly.

look into online programs

[Anonymous Coward]

I took the online route. They are right...I had no social life for 4 years, but I now have a BSBM and an MSTM from University of Phoenix. I attended classes one day a week, pulled additional hours that were required, & only did 2 specialty courses online. It was worth every minute and penny!

Western Governors University BS in Software Develo

[Anonymous Coward]

Fast, cheap, accredited: http://www.wgu.edu/online_it_degrees/software_development_degree

Degree Overview
The surge of smart mobile devices has led to a high demand for mobile and data-centric applications and a low supply of qualified developers. The B.S. in Software Development program is designed to meet this growing need while preparing experienced information technology professionals for successful careers as software designers and developers.

Our software application development degree program incorporates several industry-recognized certifications, including the Oracle Certified Professional, Java SE 7 Programmer—at no additional cost—giving you a competitive advantage in today’s job market.

Already an experienced software developer? WGU’s competency-based learning model allows you to move quickly through what you already know, allowing you to focus on what you still need to learn. Click here to learn more about WGU’s innovative competency-based model.

Who the program is for:
Established software developers who need a bachelor’s degree and additional certifications to advance their careers.
Experienced IT professionals who seek the training needed to become talented software designers and developers.
Individuals who have completed some college coursework or have applicable work experience.
Individuals who can typically spend 15 or more hours per week on their studies.
This program will be flexible and adaptable to your schedule. Click here to learn how your program works.

What You’ll Learn — Areas of Study:
In this online IT degree program, you’ll acquire essential skills and knowledge needed for a successful career in the field. This program includes the following areas of study and completion of a capstone project.

General Education
Systems and Services
Network Security
Data Management
Scripting and Programming
Business of IT
Operating Systems for Programmers
Software Engineering
Data Structures
Data Management for Programmers
Software
Client-Server Application Development
Mobile Application Development
Total Program: 122 Competency Units (credit equivalents)
Less: Any competency units waived through transfer of prior college credits.

Note: Your prior college experience and IT certifications may waive some degree requirements. Click here to see what IT certifications may transfer to WGU.

What You’ll Earn — IT Certifications:
This program incorporates industry-recognized IT certifications as part of your degree program. You will study for and complete the following certification exams (which are all included in your tuition—a huge cost savings for you):

CompTIA Network+
CompTIA Security+
CompTIA Project+
Oracle Certified Associate, Java SE 7 Programmer
Oracle Certified Professional, Java SE 7 Programmer
Note: Your IT certifications may waive some degree requirements. Click here to see what IT certifications may transfer to WGU.

WGU is a Microsoft IT Academy Member
As a Microsoft IT Academy program member, WGU is able to offer students a world-class technology curriculum and courseware provided by Microsoft. Many (but not all) of your Microsoft courses will use this rich online learning resource which includes virtual labs that provide hands-on experience with Microsoft software to supplement your learning. The cost of certification exams is included in WGU tuition.

Ken and Google and acm

[astar]

It happens that in some places on Slashdot and elsewhere if you refer to Ken or Dennis people know who they are. Ken is still round i hear and working for Schmidt at Google i imagine when he went by HR it was after he was hired. So the need to get pass HR checklists is not a law of nature.

Consider join ACM. You are more than qualified. They award nice pieces of paper than in my day were liked by HR. They have top notch educational offerings. They offer job search help. There are a lot of networking opportunities etc. The last two are the ones that really counts.

As far as CS degrees i am unenthusiastic. Pick up something that is not techie that you will enjoy.

WRONG (~150 proofs to the contrary)... apk

[Anonymous Coward]

"All my posts are downmodded into oblivion", eh? Not http://news.slashdot.org/comme...

* :)

( & that's a tiny sample only - I can produce TWICE THAT in upmoderated posts of mine, easily.... making YOU have to "EAT YOUR WORDS", chump...)

APK

P.S.=> NOW that you have to "eat your words" (lol)? I hope they taste good, washed down with "the bitter taste of SELF-DEFEAT'' & YOUR FOOT IN YOUR MOUTH... apk

Become German

[Dabido]

Become German, get a degree for free (except in Saxony).

Re:a humble suggestion.

[retchdog]

Nice false dichotomy, you fucking imbecile.

Did you read the article? He wants a degree as easily as possible, just so that he can make more money. If an accredited institution offered Bachelor's degrees in CS for sucking dick in the parking lot, I'm sure our erstwhile submitter wouldn't have bothered asking for anything else.

Become an ordained minister instead

[Anonymous Coward]

Join the church of subgenus instead and become an ordained minister for only $35.

http://www.subgenius.com

Praise Bob!