Slashdot Mirror
The Daily Harassment of Women In the Game Industry
An anonymous reader writes: Brianna Wu, leader of a game development studio, has an article exposing the constant harassment of women in the games industry. She says, "I'm not writing this piece to evoke your sympathy. I'm writing to share with you what prominent, successful women in the industry experience, in their own words." She goes through the individual stories of several women targeted by this vitriol, and tries to figure out why it happens. Quoting: "We live in a society that's sexist in ways it doesn't understand. One of the consequences is that men are extremely sensitive to being criticized by women. ... This is why women are socialized to carefully dance around these issues, disagreeing with men in an extremely gentle manner. Not because women are nicer creatures than men. But because our very survival can depend on it. ... Growing a thicker skin isn't the answer, nor is it a proper response. Listening, and making the industry safer for the existence of visible women is the best, and only, way forward."
It isn't only women who dance around issues when socializing with the other sex. Men gets very soft around women. If you think they have a harassing attitude you should see how men treat other men.
How do you defend yourself against accusations like that as a man? We are extremely sensitive to being criticized by women, can you really say thats not true without becoming another "point of proof" that they have?
I read the piece (well, ok, half of it). The writing and arguments is pretty decent, somewhat of a rarity when dealing with this subject. However, there is no way how truly widespread the problem is, given that the sample size is 4
And to hell with invisible women.
Just how annoying is this person that she generates that kind of hate ?
I have worked with/under/and above women and the only time I have ever seen anyone get this kind of reaction, male or female is when it is provoked or the people perpetrating it were a few punch cards short of a program.
We live in a society that's sexist in ways it doesn't understand. One of the consequences is that men are extremely sensitive to being criticized by women. ... This is why women are socialized to carefully dance around these issues...
What's there not to understand? Women wants EQUAL rights in just about anything that makes a MAN a MAN! In Sweden we're officially so feminist now that we even have a Feminist Political Party (FI - Feminist Initiative).
With all due respect and apologies to all women that has been harassed in any way anywhere by stupid and insecure individuals - I have to say I', FED UP with this feminist battle over the sexes that these days have gone WAY OVERBOARD. Women wants equal rights, but get maternity leave with FULL pay too. They want to leave 5'o clock when they're finished at work, but get paid as a man who works until the job is DONE.
Women wants to be treated like a woman - and still be equal to men. What happened to treating a MAN like a MAN? We were created DIFFERENTLY and we should APPRECIATE our differences, this doesn't mean it's harassment, but thanks to the absolutely out-of-proportion nagging about Female Rights in the media every day and every hour on every newsmedia that we can think of - it has made me somewhat biased AGAINST women whom I used to care so much about.
For that reason alone, I'm not even married. I don't want to - the women of today resemble men!
What this world is coming to - is for you and me to decide.
From the small sample of these accounts I've read, I get the sense that the women in question have a limited perspective. My impression is that in many cases, they encounter career or workplace challenges, and falsely assume that only women have those challenges.
Balancing work and family responsibilities? Please, do you know how many days I've left work after sunset and nearly cried for not having that time with my little kids?
Getting criticized harshly? Shoot, I deal with that often. I just don't blog about it. What I do is go home, try to shake it off, and maybe talk to my wife about how it's bothering me. I don't cry about it, and maybe this is a guy thing, but I cry almost never. But that doesn't mean it doesn't bother me.
And then there are some complaints which seem more about personal choices than about unfairness. I don't come across many good, female software engineers. You know what else I rarely come across? Female aspiring software engineers who spend their nights hacking away at code to improve their skills.
Now I have no doubt that some challenges really are unique to being a female developer. Sexual harassment is probably the top one. But that issue kind of gets drowned out of the conversation given all of the kvetching that some women have regarding other issues that they wrongly assume are peculiar to them.
No one deserves to be sexually harassed. End of story.
The problem is the other way round. Women are being socialised to constantly challenge men, and believe their opinion must always be heard and respected. And if it's not heard or disagreed with, it's sexist. Men understand that there is a certain pecking order and know how to engage correctly to get their view heard. And guess what? That means we need to share our opinions in a gentle manner too. More and more women expect men to act like their partner would toward them. That's not how it works, it's a dog eats dog world and in business, it's the modern jungle. We are all motivated by selfish desires whether we admit it or not, women just want to get a leg over like any one else, but cry sexist when they are pushed down (from other people who are also trying to rise to the top. There is no place for socialism in the work place. It's hierarchical like it or not.
Ya I think the problem is that forums bring out people who say some truly terrible things, and there isn't really much you can do about it. They say stuff to men too - but it's more death threats than sexist, and they say racist things to (or about) blacks and jews, muslims, latinos, and the chinese too.
The perils of anonymity I suppose.
It's not like it isn't a valid concern that people are out saying these things, but jews and blacks essentially face the same problem: if you go and look at a few hundred or a few thousand internet comments on any post there will be a couple of things that are basically just crazy people rambling. Unfortunately you don't know when random crazy people rambling on forums are actually a threat (if ever), and that they exist and want to say those things at all is a bit of an existential threat to your general day to day existence.
There isn't really an obvious prescription. You can educate people all you want about not saying offensive things, but a small handful of people will continue to say offensive things because they're trying to be offensive. And the anonymity of the internet lets you say both unpopular things which are valid, and unpopular things which are just nonsense.
What about female nerds? And male nerds that actually give a damn about what women think and how women are treated?
But one of the silliest things I've ever experienced when gaming online was a (probably teenaged) female telling me that she was sodomizing my mom with a strap-on. Over and over again. Or another telling me that if I was her kid she'd have aborted me with a crowbar.
The Internet brings out the best in everyone!
do() || do_not();
And seeing the reactions so far not much is going to change about this shit. Disappointingly few people are even willing to entertain the possibility that the story might actually be true. Only coming up with excuses, bogus counter-examples ("I'm a guy who knows some women and I've never seen this happen") or just outright hatred and scorn. Way to go guys!
I've had the misfortune of working with many ex-videogame developers in my line of work. These people were basically uncivilized and reminded me of the mindset of what LAN parties were like back in the 90s when I was a teenager. Racism, sexism, ageism, profanity, and behavior that made you embarrassed to be around them in public. That kind of thing was funny when I was 16, but we were all immature then. It's very disturbing to see adults carry on like that.
Don't get me wrong, that industry has also created some very hard-working, kind people that I feel truly blessed to have had the fortune to work with. But those types are hard to come by, and the out of control manchild is all too common. A few of the most vitriolic, passive-aggressive trolls I've known were former EA prodigies (their words, along with every other kind of self-adulation you can think of) and they absolutely thought they walked on water. They'd show up to work drunk, or high, and brag to everyone about how much weed they smoked or how they partied all night. There was no self control and it spilled over into mistreating their peers.
There's a very sharp divide between the kind of people that go into games programming and all other programmers, and it's entirely about maturity, and at least in my experience it's uniquely American.
Not to say that I don't think some of this stuff goes on and that BOTH sexes aren't harassed, but in the article I didn't see a single instance that they had audio, video, or e-mail proof of their alleged harassment. There was a video of a troll flaming someone over a different of opinions in JRPGs but as anyone who has spent more than 5 minutes on Xbox Live, you know that this is the internet we live on. Just last night I was told I was going to be raped, along with my mother, for beating someone in a fighting game.
As a man who has been falsely accused of attempted rape by an attention-seeker in the past, I implore everyone to provide proof of their allegations , and to demand proof from others, before labeling it as a systemic issue. I don't enjoy being falsely accused of rape, and I don't enjoy being falsely stuck in to a harasser category because I work in tech and have a penis but won't label myself a 'feminist'. Furthermore, I feel that articles like this with claims but no evidence will just make people shy away from hiring Women for fear they are going to start claiming harassment when there is none.
I'll admit I was a little relieved after actually reading the article. I assumed it was talking about harassment of male game developers towards female coworkers, which would have really surprised me. I've worked in the industry for over fifteen years, and I've never even heard of any sort of sexism toward the women that were employed alongside me. It simply wouldn't have been tolerated at the places I've worked, so far as I know, and that's a good thing. While the programming department was, of course, largely male, the other departments (art, design, writing, production) were more evenly split. Everyone I've known has valued talent and hard work, and gender was pretty much an afterthought, at least so far as I could tell. Then again, I'm a guy, so I'm probably not quite as attuned to that sort of thing.
In fact, the article seems to be mostly about women (largely in the gaming press) interacting with the still-all-too-ugly disposition of the anonymous hoards of gaming fans that interact with them. That made a bit more sense to me, unfortunately, as such women are by nature already public figures, and will probably attract a lot more bile. Let's face it. People on the internet, including (especially?) gamers, are not only sexist, they're racist, homophobic, and unbelievably cruel at time. I care a lot about the gaming culture and community, and it pains me to admit this. There's a shocking disconnect between what would be acceptable in real life versus what's said online. I'd imagine very few of those idiots would ever have the courage to say those things to someone's face.
The only way to deal with this is absolute zero tolerance policies, at least on forums (literal or otherwise) that you have any control over. There's simply no excuse for this sort of behavior. The internet could really stand to collectively grow up a little, and realize that being anonymous shouldn't give you a free license to be an asshat. Frankly, I don't think that "normal" people turn into foul-mouth talking assholes when online and anonymous. My feeling is that they were assholes to begin with, but just didn't have the courage to say those things to anyone's face. These folks are not going to go away, I'm sorry to say. It would be nice if human nature could evolve a bit. But that doesn't mean anyone has to put up with this sort of shit any more than necessary. I'm also sorry to say that as a man, I'm pretty sure I'll never understand how a woman feels when she goes through something like this, and it makes me angry that so many would have to.
Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
Now she has five.
Thank you for your contribution.
I actually thought this was going to be some real world experiences, and not "Someone on the internet called me a cunt!", "Someone on the internet said they'd rape me!"
If you make your unpopular opinion known to the world online, expect people who disagree to come out and attack you. Expect more people to come out when they know you'll make a big stink about it. The main thing they're looking for is a reaction, that's just how the internet works, people can hind behind their computers and make all the threats they want and some people find joy in getting these responses from people. I was really looking forward to an article describing real world instances where people made these comments and threats. Not that I want to see that happen, but at least that's something that can be corrected when brought to light, the only way to stop trolls is to stop feeding them.
You wonder why we have so much dysfunction going on today?
Pervasive culture of butthurt = CHECK
Any perceived insult is by default true = CHECK
Special protected classes that can do no wrong = CHECK
Litigious society causing zero tolerance including honest mistakes = CHECK
Rampant immaturity = CHECK
General abdication of personal responsibility = CHECK
Let's pose a hypothetical, here. Let's say you (Linda, a woman) work for a company A. A has Big Boss, Linda, Tom, Fred and David as employees. The four of you report to Big Boss.
Situation A: Tom says something mean to Fred. Fred tells Tom to go fuck himself. Big Boss hears about it and calls them both into his office. Big Boss tells Tom to square his shit away or he's fired. Big Boss admonishes Fred to come see him about this in the future rather than responding in kind. Tom and Fred go on about their work and are a bit more careful about their interactions. This is a regular thing for Tom as he's brilliant but a loose cannon verbally. Big Boss talks to Tom and admonishes him that if he can't keep his asshole comments to himself, he will end up fired with prejudice.
Situation B: Linda says something mean to Fred. Fred tells Linda she can go fuck herself. Other employees hear the latter half of the exchange. Linda goes to Big Boss and complains about Fred using foul language around her. Big Boss calls them both into the office. Linda tells her story and Big Boss asks her to return to her desk. Big Boss then lectures Fred about the sensitivities of women in the workforce and how the small company cannot afford to defend against a "workplace harassment" lawsuit. Fred complains that Linda started the whole thing. Big Boss says it won't matter because a jury will default rule in favor of the woman because of articles like the above. Fred points out that justice is supposed to be blind. Big Boss points out that in cases of harassment, lay-wisdom holds that when women harass men, the men need to grow a pair, but when men harass women, it is only right and proper to expect better decorum out of the men. Big Boss never says anything to Linda because it could be construed as the abuse of power in a workplace environment.
Now, you may laugh at this but these are actual shit storms I've seen happen. The problem is that while most women aren't self-entitled whiners and most men are not adolescent assholes, we can't catch a break because the lawyers and bean-counters won't let a manager fire the shit out of someone just for being a prick/cunt. As George Takei said, we've reduced ourselves to the lowest common denominator of butthurt.
if you 'have' to do something with your girlfriend, then maybe you should find someone else?
I don't understand this stupid idea that a spouse can't enjoy something the other spouse does if for nothing more then to share in their enjoyment.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Is this what we've come to? Pretending online trolls are a problem specifically for women?
Here's a hint for the author of that article: Trolls are adept at identifying that which will get under your skin, and will hit that button repeatedly as long as it keeps spitting out a pellet ( much like this article ). If we're going to generalize it, men don't get this particular brand of trollling because it doesn't work on us. Ultimately, it has very little to do with sexism.
But no; let's work on trying to make ourselves a better brand of troll. Let me know how that works out for you.
( and no; had the author been a man, I'd have responded in the same manner )
Mod me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
men say this stuff to other men all the time.
You don't think men call other men bitches, cunts, etc in games? The abuse is pretty common.
The difference here as usual is that women expect to be treated differently. They don't think that's what they want but it is actually what they want.
And I'm okay with treating women better. However, if that's the new rule, then women need to acknowledge it. That's the only price. If women so much as acknowledge that men are treating them with kid gloves it short circuits most of the PC equality arguments.
As it should.
If women don't want that and want to be treated equal... then fine... but that means not complaining when you're treated like a man. Which is going to mean getting cussed out by people that will LAUGH at you when you cry. People that will show you ZERO pity when you break down. People that will if anything hold you in contempt for being so weak.
Are you prepared for that ladies? If so... game on.
If not... completely fine. But then we're playing by the old rules of male/female relations. Which means you're just a girl.
We've seen this PC crap try to gain purchase in the tech community for years. Linus Thorvald recently got told to be nicer women and that he shouldn't cus out people that he thinks are doing a crappy job.
He told her that she wasn't tolerating his culture and his way of doing things... and that he wasn't going to change anything.
I'll hold the same position here for the same reasons. If the girls want to be treated like girls then that's fine. If they want to be treated like men, that's fine. But stop trying to eat your man cake and have your girl perks too. Its either/or.
I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
anecdotes
Prove very little and when published in a form like this prove even less. Sexual harassment and assault are highly politicized and in many cases overstated. When the mere accusation of sexual harassment in the form of making dongle jokes in a private conversation can end careers it's blatant sexism to claim it's not taken seriously enough. Sexism? yes: spreading fear that men are abusive and dangerous.
Ive personally never heard of a man in the games industry getting rape threats for having an opinion.
Death threats are every bit as common. Being a different gender means the hatred may be sexualized. "No rape threats against men" is a piss poor measure. How about coming up with some actual numbers reflecting the supposedly heightened hostility against women? Because no I won't take your word for it.
Many men believe women have no worth in the games industry beyond appearance.
The video game industry is particularly egregious at only representing women as sex objects. As such, many gamers are trained to only see women in that context.
Would you care to back that up with facts? A survey maybe? Because it sounds like you pulled it straight from whence many of your other claims come. One sexist asshole does not a culture make. There are many games with strongfemale characters. And don't say sexy clothes prove gamers are sexist unless you want to talk about the thousands of hulking, musclebound men in games.
This kind of harassment leaves long-lasting damage. It affects our friendships, and can cause us to be distant from others.
So your overly sensitive friend proves that the same hatred is worse when leveled against women? Equality means standing up for yourself. If you want to be a damsel in distress you don't want equality.
Women in the industry are told by men what is valid for us to feel.
No, women in general are told they're special and need everyone to cater to them. Then the gaming industry didn't cater as much garnering feminist ire. You can feel whatever you want but so can I.
If video games influenced behavior the Pac Man generation would be eating pills and running away from their problems.
Based on my discussions in the past, I'm guessing the mostly male audience here will say something like "not here" or "I've never seen that". I am reminded of a (financially struggling) friend of mine who posted on her blog talking about the myth of white priviledge and her other (entirely white) friends saying "Right on!". In casting herself as a vicitm, she tried to say that the experiences of minorities were not unique.
No one here, unless you've been a woman, knows what it's like to work in an overwhelmingly male (and foul-mouthed;)) culture. And yes, it's possible to overcome that treatment -- but that doesn't it right.
-- Political fascism requires a Fuhrer.
I don't believe it actually happens that way. Would you care to debate the point?
If video games influenced behavior the Pac Man generation would be eating pills and running away from their problems.
She's telling the stories of four different women in the article, so your point is completely without merit
Before I read the article, before I decided whether there was a legitimate point, before I even had a chance to introspect whether or not I, personally, held some socially unacceptable viewpoints at an unconscious level, before all this, I saw the trigger warnings.
So before I read the article and judge it on it's own merits, let me talk about trigger warnings for a second, and what they seem to say.
My own personal experience with them tends to be very limited, but a casual perusal indicates that the vast majority of users appear to promote misandry - that is, man-hating - as an acceptable form of discrimination. There appears to be a fundamental belief that males, either consciously or not, are simply evil, often comically so. One site even referred to consensual, loving, heterosexual sex as "a man masturbating into a woman," and the author indicated their belief that any male-female interaction was one form of abuse or another, with the woman always the victim.
For lack of a better phrase, this level of irrational hate has become their religion, and it colors their views. Like the person who only has a hammer in their tool box, every problem appears to be a because-of-man nail, and we know how well that sort of thinking works.
So what the trigger warnings before this article seems to say is "I have a better chance of getting truthful and unbiased coverage from Fox News in an election year than I do of finding the barest glimmer of a hint of truth in the following text."
To an extent, but only to an extent, you are correct.
The problem is that when someone who feels they should be entitled relative to someone else also feels that the somone else is favored over them, you get a lot more vitriol. And a lot of men and boys feel that they should be entitled relative to women. And yes, this also happens along racial lines. And anonymity makes them feel safe in targeting the "unfairly" favored.
Please note that I do not intend ANY actual implication as to whether or not the targeted individual actually is favored in any sane sense of the term. I'm talking purely about perceptions. And I intentionally spoke in generalities. It could as easily describe relationships between customers and clerks as anything else, but for most people that relationship does not impact the attention that they devote to the world significantly.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
For all of you trying to turn this into a men's rights issue, just stop.
You're embarrassing my gender.
Yes there are some unfair things that happen to men. Yes there are some real issues.
But we aren't talking about those issues right here in this post. We're talking about women right now, so let's stick to the topic.
Even as a man I find it highly annoying that the Internet jackass squad has to jump into the middle of every single conversation about women and cry "BUT WHAT ABOUT THE MENZ?!?!". Just fucking stop it already. Write your own blog post about men's issues and submit it to slashdot and we can discuss it over there.
Natural != (nontoxic || beneficial)
Perhaps, but adults need to take some responsibility for the situations they put themselves in. End of story. Crying victim every time you're criticized does not encourage respect, and that's what these professional victim blog articles are all about.
I was working in the video game development industry for a number of years and in that time, I never once saw women being treated an differently than men.. although I have heard stories of it happening at other places. i think it depends, therefore, on the types of people that a particular game studio might tend to employ.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
You gotta sell advertising somehow. "All is good" doesn't farm clicks you know.
Science advances one funeral at a time- Max Planck
... you have no idea what you're talking about.
The stereotypical neckbeards are the minority.
I'm a little segfault, short and stout.
Uh.
Actually, it is pretty much the case that women in general are harassed by men.
I'm 42. I've known dozens of women well enough to talk to them about their experiences. I think maybe one or two of them report that harassment stuff like this is fairly rare for them. The rest regard it as pretty ordinary.
My blog: http://www.seebs.net/log/ --- My iPhone/iPad app: http://www.seebs.net/seebsfrac/
This is why women are socialized to carefully dance around these issues, disagreeing with men in an extremely gentle manner. Not because women are nicer creatures than men. But because our very survival can depend on it. ... Growing a thicker skin isn't the answer, nor is it a proper response. Listening, and making the industry safer for the existence of visible women is the best, and only, way forward."
These days, it's men who are being 'carefully socialized' to dance around feminist gynocentric expectations and value systems. I believe HR departments call it 'sensitivity training.' Since proof of guilt is rarely required, employment for men is now a mad dash in a mine field of passive aggressive barbs just waiting to trigger whenever a woman is pissed enough to throw the book at a man. we're told this is justified because men alone engage in this behavior en masse, and that women are (ironically) damsels in distress who have no say or part in their situations, nor are they capable of similar behavior. This crap flooded hollywood and tv in the 90s, and now we're getting the full deluge of the same propaganda in the gaming scene. What bullshit. Polygon loves it, though, as they post a lot of it. The fact they shut off comments for this article speaks volumes about its logical and probably factual integrity.
We don't give people respect who haven't earned it and/or have given us reason to take it from them. Derek smart anyone? People still give john romero shit for daikatana even though he was a big part of the success of doom. He's revered for the good he's done and demonized for his stillborn shitpiles. This is how it's supposed to work. We're not supposed to hold some people above reproach based on their sexual organs or their race or any other irrelevant attribute, as that is the very definition of privilege. This makes the whole article 180 degrees out from the truth. Growing a thicker skin IS the answer as it allows one to stop and look at criticism objectively instead of immediately flying into a tantrum and/or a flurry of passive aggressive countermaneuvers. It allows one to ignore the ad hominems and other fallacies from any communication, whether it's well written constructive criticism or vitriolic trolling, and extract any truth from it.
These days, we are seeing more and more extreme reactions for ever more mundane situations from a culture bred to be as intolerant of criticism as possible. Everything has to be positive. All the time. No 'negative nancies' or 'debbie downers' allowed. The fact this precludes talking about the truth of things more than 50% of the time is lost on these social engineers. All that matters to them are feelings and consensus; the facts and truth be damned.
The term 'safer' here is used in place of 'more amenable' to make the situation sound more dire than it is. The bottom line is, very very very few men are truly guilty of assaulting women. I believe the stats on college campuses nationwide is 53 in one year...53 out of millions of students on thousands of campuses. This is NOT an epidemic, and I'll bet it's more than the number of assaults by male game developers and staff. If you are assaulted, don't whine on the internet. Call the police. The reason most of these women don't is because they know their claims are bullshit. Otherwise, they should act like the adults they want to be treated as, taking warranted criticism for what it is, regardless of format, and discarding the rest.
If anything my experience female programmers on average are more competent. If they have any "failing" it is that they aren't blowhards which seems to actually work in many occupations. I don't know how many male programmers that basically claim "I came into that company and put a 2 year project to bed. Without me they would still be using punch cards." When the reality is that he worked as an intern formatting hard drives. Then when you look at his code it is the million monkeys with a million keyboards experiment done by a single programmer. Whereas the female programmers that I have met tend to take a task, finish a task, take a task, finish a task; no glory.
What I would say is that the worst male programmers tend to compensate for their terrible skills by being louder whereas the bad female programmers tend to either leave or find different jobs within tech.
But at the same time my experience within various organizations is that female programmers weren't treated any differently that I could see. It certainly wasn't ever a living episode of Mad Men.
So if I had to guess it is that any culture that sounds like what she is writing about comes from the top down. Programmers are rarely social gods; so if an asshole marketing type were running the company they might start taking their cues from him. Then I suspect it could get really bad really quickly.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Why should people put up with it just because you do? I wouldn't. I'm not exactly thin skinned but I think there is a level of professionalism that should be affected at work. I'm quite happy to have a very different relationship with the same people out of work.
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When her body, her right, her choice is no longer his responsibility, then we'll've actually made progress.
Now that was funny. Thanks for sharing.
"Once we've identified and embraced our sickness, we'll have strength...and that's when we get dangerous." - John Waters
I worked with friends. Not best friends - male friendship allows for much shallower bonds. I don't exchange christmas cards with any of them, but I know that each and every one of them would buy me a pint tomorrow, if I bumped into them.
My daughter and I were talking about how much personally directed sexual violence geek girls must endure. She was talking about the obsessive personally detailed threats Anita Sarkeesian creator of Feminist Frequency endures from the male geek community on a continual basis. Some of these are threats include her personal details needed to carry them out. This is really scary stuff.
We were talking about this and she casually let drop:
"I received my first rape threat in a forum when I was eleven"
She casually went on:
"Eleven is the age when geek girls first start discovering the Internet and make their first posts. They comment on a game about some small feature they don't like. Some guy will flame them with a rape threat"
This is very shocking for a dad to hear his daughter say. "My eleven year old little girl!" She is twice as old now. But her saying it so casually is deeply disturbing.
My daughter has assimilated it. She has grown a "thick skin". I think she enjoys giving back as good as she gets. But not the violent rape stuff.
It is very sad that the male geek culture permits such abuse to go on.
We MEN need to start talking about this. We MEN need to ostracize the men who threaten rape.
* It is never funny.
* It is not "just a joke".
* It is not harmless.
It is really scary for geek girls because there is always a risk that it might be real. There are unbalanced men out there after all.
How do I change this? I start by writing about it. I talk with other people. I try to get MEN to understand the problem and see how scary it is for women.
...As I would them. he hastily adds.
I'm a man, I consider myself a feminist, no I don't feel threatened the slightest by feminists and feminism, I have friends of both gender that identify as feminists.
What's the big deal?
Is it so hard to consider that something is true even if it's completely out of your personal experience?
"Men too" is not an answer, because the harassment and threats that women face is disproportionate to what men face.
How old where you when you first feared to be raped? Now go ask your female friends.
A significant portion of women in the western world has endured sexual abuse and probably still bears the scars of that.
That's women that you see in your life, that you meet daily. Only they don't tell you.
Yes, men are also abused. It is a problem, but it's nowhere as common and nowhere as socially acceptable.
You don't know everything. Your perception is not all-encompassing. Your experience is not the same as those of the opposite gender.
Deal with it.
ANYONE feels entitled to vent when you're on the Internet- you're relatively anonymous and there just aren't any real consequences for being a total douchebag. Sure, every once in awhile someone may get a visit from the men in black for threatening the prez or some such but overall no one ever comes after these guys. Slashdot is full of this stuff!
Bigoted much?
It's that easy!
It's OK Bender, there's no such thing as 2.
I don't believe an anonymous person, probably a male, posting a woman't address and telling her he's going to rape her some night is a position she thought she'd be in because she decided to work in the gaming industry.
It's certainly not a position I think I'm putting myself in when I apply for a job. I wouldn't call it criticism either. That crosses the line from juvenile and possibly hurtful speech to a threat one might have to take seriously.
Its true.. people are ruder online than they are in person.
Its like they feel the have a license to do or say whatever they want. A culture of lawlessness.
Also, the Internet gives the real creeps of the world more direct access to you. In the real world you wouldn't let them get close to you.. but on the Internet they can get into your face!
While this comment is clearly a troll, it highlights nicely that trolls can target either gender. The problem these women are experiencing with people on the internet isn't to do with the entire male gender, it has to do with internet trolls. There are plenty out there, and when you strike one down two more take their place. And while most trolls may be men, most men are not trolls.
To being criticized by women? I think not. Or the species would have gone extinct thousands of years ago.
Personally, I like women that can stand up or themselves. I am admittedly a bit of a jerk and I don't think a relationship with me would survive if a girlfriend or wife wasn't capable of telling me when I'm being an asshole. As long as its constructive criticism, I'm OK with it.
Have gnu, will travel.
I'm a rare advocate of preventing rapists from ever having children. Face it, rape worked for the whole evolution of humans. Those aggressive traits worked and the evolutionary pressures rewarded them. There is no reason society can't decide to finally do something about promotion of that behavior into the gene pool. Males are genetically evolved towards the behavior and you can't condition all of them properly from birth to get the results you demand (thank goodness we don't know how because those skills would be used to control people in bad ways... and what we know already is abused.) Perhaps this could lower the need to dominate as well and cut down on domestic abuse (another big source for rape and similar abuse... we don't even have good stats on raped partners because they don't report it or rationalize.) Geeks are probably better than most male demographics at controlling their urges - the anonymous tools free inhibitions for EVERYBODY not just geeks.
No, it is not a slippery slope to eugenics and if you think so you need to look up the slippery slope fallacy.
Democracy Now! - uncensored, anti-establishment news
That is why when you play online shooters, which attract many immature males, "faggot" is the default insult. They are insecure about their sexuality, as most young men are, and thus being called gay is one of the more hurtful things to them. they externalize that, of course, and thus that is what they use by default against others. However if they find something that works better, they'll go after that. Race, age, nationality, etc, etc.
They are assholes, sociopaths sometimes, they want to hurt others and they choose whatever they think is the most effective way to do it.
For that matter humans in general do it, women included. Bill Burr ha some hilarious bits, based in truth as the best comedy is, about women steering a losing argument towards personal attacks against their man. Saying he has a little dick, is a momma's boy, that kind of thing.
Well, that really happens. It isn't because women are some horrible creatures, but rather because they are using the insults they have learned will hurt the worst, when they get mad and decide to turn to insults. It's what people do when they lash out.
The difference between a normal person and a troll/asshole/ITG/sociopath and so on online is that most people do it only when they are angry, when they are lashing out at another person. These asshats do it for fun, just to get a rise out of people, and so on.
It is not something to be celebrated, or even tolerated (in any community I moderate trolling is a fast way to the banhammer) but trying to act like it is a problem limited to or directed at women is silly.
Here's an informative response to one of those trolls, pay no attention to his bad math it doesn't distract from the central point.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
Sorry, but this can't be generalized. I do work in the games industry as a Lead of programmers, mostly men but some women. I can speak for our whole game team to say that there is no such harassment. Those cases are very bad indeed, but it's not like this happens everywhere in the game industry on a regular basis. In our company, this kind of behaviour would get you fired for sure.
Even outside of the extreme examples, women have a tough time in the competitive gaming scene and are immediately written off when they show the slightest bit of incompetence. For example, take Pyrion flax and Sheever from the Dota 2 competitive scene. Pyrion is arguably worse than Sheever (he himself would probably admit that), but he is given more airtime and taken more seriously. Here's a video that shows blatant sexism among Dota 2 casters:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...
I can't seem to find the video, but on day 3 of the Dota 2 TI4 championship (in the C9 vs VG match), there's a point where Sheever tries to say something about the lineups but is interrupted by other casters three times in a row. She ends up getting to say nothing before the game starts.
I don't think there's much that can be done to get women equal and fair treatment in gaming and computer-related fields, but I'm almost certain the situation will improve itself over time as more women participate. In the meantime, we just have to try to not be such dicks to the outliers and to not look at people through the lenses of gender, race and nationality.
You'd be harassed less if you weren't uptight. Also, if you brought in cookies or sandwiches.
I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
I once got called to HR because I made a coworker cry.
My offense?
I asked her to do her job (which was as an analyst) a provide me with the formulae and rating tables necessary for me to program the insurance rate calculations which I was attempting to code.
She said that was too technical and complex and that I should call the insurance company directly.
I said no, and that she should do her job.
It's easy to pretend you're a woman online. You should try it, as an experiment. It'll get you a sample of the actual numbers that you're looking for. After you do, your opinion on the subject will be a lot more interesting, whatever it is that you discover.
So basically it's the same shtick: women want equality except for when it's in a woman's interest (in this case preserving her ego) for women to be legislated superiority.
The sad part isn't that abuse happens, the sad part is that we keep lining up to give women special privileges because they're the "weaker sex" all while attempting to champion the cause of equality.
I don't know any women for whom threats like this have not become real at some point. (whatever stats say, assume that probably only 1 case in 20 is actually reported and that's a fair rate)
That's one of the key differences. For most men, these threats are just "noise".
Google "missing women" if you want a clue about how real it can get.
This is why I'll continue to argue for women's rights. In a world where a woman can walk down a street at night without risk of assault, so can anyone.
PS: this applies for LBTQ-type folks too.
The reality is men basically have to suffer through this harassment too and the difference is they are expected to put up with it.
No, I'm not. When some lard-ass starts shouting, pounding the table and threatening people physically, I can back him down. Not many women can.
Management needs to make it clear that this behavior will not be tolerated. Or the company will end up being run by Bubba and all the intellectual talent will move on. This is fine if you are in the business of digging ditches. Not so much in the software business.
Have gnu, will travel.
Anonymity seems to be the red line through all the examples here.
Once again I'm strengthened in my belief that there should be no such thing as online anonymity.
Brianna,
Not all people in the world are respectful.
When you are in a command position or publicly declaring your opinion (online posting), you will make decisions/comments that other people disagree with.
The disrespectful ones will attempt to cut you down by making crude comments intended to hurt you as much as possible, especially if they can do it anonymously. Often, they will pursue what sets you apart from the average population because bullies innately know that most people are self-consciousness about standing out.
If you are a minority, they will come after your race. If you are a woman, they will come after your gender. If you are gay, they will come after your sexuality. If you have a family, they will threaten your children. If you are handicapped, they will come after your disability. If you are attractive, they will insult your beauty. If you are ugly, they will insult your beauty. If you are obese, they will insult your weight. If you are thin, they will insult your weight. If you are a man, they will insult your genitalia. If you are a woman, they will insult your genitalia.
This is the way that the world works. No amount of whining online will change it; it just lets them know that they have hit home. It is not fair. Life is not fair. However, effective individuals accept this harassment as the cost of being a manager or public figure. They learn to absorb it, ignore it or thrive on it. Then they continue to move forward towards their goals.
If you cannot learn to deal with the harassment associated with leadership or public positions, consider less visible paths forward in life.
Sincerely,
cyn1c77
What we're all forgetting here is that we're still moving out of the dark ages of computer use, since the generation that suffered the most for the sake of their ambitions are still alive. The one where being a computer enthusiast meant you were a social pariah and were destined to be abused constantly by everyone, especially all through highschool. Then bam, society takes a hard left and suddenly it's cool to be tech savvy. That doesn't help all the people that got shit on for decades before things turned around.
Now these abused souls are grown up, and in the industry and you wonder why they're assholes? If this were any other situation you'd have governments creating support groups. Instead, everyone is demonizing them for being harsh and defensive. You're not going to see this problem go away for several generations, if it goes away at all and it is a problem that society itself built through its perpetual abuse of other people.
BeauHD. Worst editor since kdawson.
i suppose you don't appreciate the irony in your post, but i do. i appreciate it enough for both of us.
yes, we understand that NOT ALL MEN are extremely sensitive to being criticized by women.
some of them are. plenty enough to cause problems. jumping in and saying NOT ALL MEN is just derailing the conversation before it can get anywhere productive. way to defend us downtrodden and persecuted men everywhere!
But if you bumped into them you might spill their pint and then you'd get glassed...no?
http://www.acetonestudio.com
I've never seen it working almost exclusively for defense contractors, but government contractors have very stringent anti-discrimination laws and federal labor laws they must be compliant with if they want to keep those government contracts. I see a lot less casual racism working in military offices, too--that shit isn't tolerated. Also, we don't post about the latest developments at work in public forums, and if we did, the only people who would be interested are our professional and/or national rivals.
I get the impression that game companies tend to attract young, very competitive developers who think they are the hottest thing since sliced bread, and haven't had the life-lessons imparted by experience to convince them they aren't all that yet. And then, there's your gamer customers... if I want to experience the bottom half of the bell curve, I either go to general news sites comment threads, or gamer forums.
---dragoness
the same is true for all groups. Go to any main stream blog these days and you will see hundreds of comments like yours, as well as plenty of insults towards white people. "White privilege" - a term that means nothing you say matters because you are white and cant possibly understand me, all while at the same time not realizing that if they believe what they are saying, they cant ever understand what its like to be a white person either, so they are hypocritical making the statement you cant talk for me, but i can talk for you
plus all the german nazi jokes, polish jokes, irish jokes, (all white people)
Long story short on the internet, everyone is treated equal, but as in real life, only some people actually bitch about it
have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
There are an awful lot of comments here from guys sound pretty angry at a female having the audacity to not like rape and death threats for being online and visible, railing against "feminism" and the such. That's not really a community that I really care to be a part of.
Sex crimes are a real thing, and they're scary as hell. Yeah, people tend to talk big and spout crap that they'll never, ever go through with when cloaked behind anonymity of the net, but that doesn't make it any less scary to the recipient, to the point of downright horrifying when received over and over and over and over again. It's a completely legitimate complaint. I can't imagine, I don't -want- to imagine, being in that position myself. Nobody should have to put up with that, and asking the guys perpetuating this to tone it the fuck down is utterly reasonable.
point being??
women like using their looks to get ahead in the world, but if you call them on it, you are the sexist
have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
There isn't really an obvious prescription. You can educate people all you want about not saying offensive things, but a small handful of people will continue to say offensive things because they're trying to be offensive.
Sensitivity training teaches the insensitive exactly how to push the buttons of the sensitive. And that's about all it does.
There's an old prescription, that may still be the best available: "Do not feed the trolls."
That that is is that that that that is not is not.
The headline should read: Over-sensitive feminist assholes seeks special treatment within the game industry.
In the words of Boyd Rice:
I'm not a tolerant person
In fact I get more intolerant by the day
I just find it more and more difficult to tolerate assholes
As my tolerance decreases, their numbers seem to increase
Every day there's more and more of them
And every day I have less and less patience
I'm not a mere bigot
But I certainly don't cut any slack to anyone on the merit of their status as an oppressed minority
Your people were enslaved? Tough luck
The white man stole your land? Too fuckin' bad
Your fair sex is plagued by date rape? Grin and bear it
These days everyone has a sob story, and frankly, I don't care
It's no excuse for being an asshole
We live in the age of the excuse
We live in the age of the asshole
They're everywhere
They come in all shapes, all sizes, all colors
There are black assholes, white assholes, women assholes, men assholes, queer assholes, straight assholes, smart assholes, stupid assholes, suburban assholes, inner-city assholes, homeless assholes, upwardly-mobile assholes, lazy assholes, incompetent assholes, sloppy assholes, anal assholes
And so it goes, ad nauseum
Why should I tolerate any of them?
Why should I tolerate anything I don't care for, for any length of time?
Why should I pretend it's okay?
I don't like assholes
Don't like talking to them; don't like talking about them
Don't like knowing them; don't like knowing about them, or their thoughts, or their deeds
Assholes are like bad ideas
You let even a single one into your life, it can begin to ruin things
It can destroy what's good, and foster much that's bad
Why tolerate that?
Tolerance was a virtue once; no more
There aren't enough hours in the day to tolerate all the assholes
To tolerate all the indignities hurled your way and still be able to live a decent life
Perhaps Goethe said it best: that which disturbs your soul, you must not suffer
Remember that when it seems like assholes are hard at work to disturb your soul 24 hours a day
Take a tip from Mr. Intolerance: don't permit them to
These complaints aren't of random griefing on forums. These complaints are of people who aren't content with just insulting people, but who track them down. Wu got insulting email and a threat backed by research on how to execute it. Nina had people track down her website and post hate mail on it. Nicole I don't know enough to judge. Elise writes about being physically restrained at a gaming event, and being sent chapters of pornographic fanfic anonymously. Carolyn seems to be dealing with the abuse.
This seems to me to be largely different from being insulted and threatened on a gaming channel.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
A woman's body, right, and choice are not a man's responsibility, so I hope you're happy with the progress in the world.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
That's because women don't confront each other directly. They're far more viscous and nasty behind the other persons back than any man is face to face and they hold grudges far longer.
Ya, that's *stalking* but well, stalking already has a prescription in law.
Naturally the international nature of the internet somewhat limits what you can do, and discovering that people making threats are basically children wouldn't do you any favours either.
Nina had people track down her website and post hate mail on it.
Don't have a website if you don't want racist, biggoted or threatening comments. I'm a game developer and a university professor, and well, students who don't like their grades seem to turn off the filter when e-mailing to a private account.
Elise writes about being physically restrained at a gaming event
That's what security is for. There's nothing here about 'women in __________' that's 'if you threaten someone for any reason the police will be called' territory.
The post is essentially cherry picking extreme cases. Ask any woman who has had a stalker if it's a good experience and the answer will be a definitive no. But you're not going to prevent stalking completely through education, no more than you can completely eliminate murder either. 4 hand picked examples of extreme cases is hardly the basis of serious policy discussion on a broad issue.
Seriously? What kind of man (as opposed to scummy arsehole) doesn't want to help pay for their child? Their own flesh-and-blood?
Then when you went to HR you should have documented the incident, asked if there was any professional advice they would like to document on the subject, and asked for a resolution on the spot from the HR lead. Then demand an entry be made into the employee's folder noting that she has refused to complete a rudimentary part of expected job performance and tried to cover the issue up by exploiting a performance demand with harassment. Amazingly, all of this can be accomplished with good demeanor.
I took a slightly different approach.
I quit and went to work for a company doing embedded Linux devices (which I like much more than PHP web development) and making $20k more.
Run that by me again, would you?
"I'm sorry, little baby that I helped create, and for whom I feel some sense of obligation because I'm a human being and not a fuckwitted prick, but my real dumbassed misreading of Adam Smith and rage against the ladeeyz means I won't provide for your future."
Ignorant.
Please stop posting in the future, thanks.