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Microsoft Surface Drowning?
hcs_$reboot (1536101) writes Again, not much good news for the MS Surface. Computerworld reports a Microsoft's losses on the tablet device at $US1.7 billion so far. But, still, Microsoft is serene: "It's been exciting to see the response to the Surface Pro 3 from individuals and businesses alike. In fact, Surface Pro 3 sales are already outpacing prior versions of Surface Pro. The Surface business generated more than $2B in revenue for the fiscal year 2014 and $409 million in revenue during Q4 FY14 alone, the latter of which included just ten days of Intel Core i5 Surface Pro 3 sales in Canada and the US." Should Microsoft pull the plug on the tablet? Or maybe it's just a matter of users getting used to the Surface? Even if they're losing money on the Pro 3, Microsoft has seemingly little to be ashamed of when it comes to reviews of the hardware.
I honestly cant help but think that Microsofts dominance is slowly slipping away.
Electronic Music Made Using Linux http://soundcloud.com/polyp
For years I hated MS. But of late they are doing really nice work and getting mocked despite doing real innovation. It feels weird to like MS as an underdog, but that's what it's come to. And I will be be getting a Surface 3 - it's the one that finally kills it in terms of compact size and decent computing power. I just gotta save up cuz it's not a cheap machine.
The loss isn't on one device, it's on a series of devices in two different product lines (RT and Pro). The Surface Pro 3 is a particular device in a particular line. You can't just get the 1.7 billion back on the previous products by cutting the newest device. There isn't enough data here to make a call on whether Microsoft should "pull the plug on the tablet" because we don't have any idea whether the new one makes money, nor any way to extrapolate from the spotty old data.
What we can notice is the conspicuous absence of a Surface RT 3 -- it appears like the RT line was a big anchor and is being cut loose, and the Pro line may be legitimately successful. The Pro line was generally praised by reviewers. The RT line...not so much.
Outpacing == losing money better than ever before?
Hardware has never been their problem, their problem has always been their strategy that has led them wrong.
By building products that are incompatible with others and refusing to open up Office files, they have implanted themself as the evil company in the mindset of those afffected. Those affected are those that realise that the world is always changing and want to be free to use any product.
Those are also the people that end up makeing decisions about what products to use.
Microsoft has "closed" them self out of the market.
If they bundled the keyboard with these things they'd sell a hell of a lot more of them. They're not bad devices, just too expensive. And let's be blunt, Windows without a keyboard is worse than fucking useless.
One can only hope they don't pull the plug. It would be nice to have some competition that doesn't boil down to totalitarian iSomething on one hand and "wonder how they leak my info today" Android on the other hand. You know, competition from a company that can afford to keep going when total market domination isn't achieved within two years.
Is it an almost-2-pound tablet, or is it a small light laptop with a crummy keyboard? You decide!
(Yes I have used the keyboard)
#DeleteChrome
I was watching a WWDC Xcode session video on an airplane Saturday, and a surprised passenger walking past asked if I was running Mac OS X (ecks, he said) on my first gen iPad mini. That got me thinking... yeah, I'd buy a surface pro if I could run a Mac OS X on it. My iPad is mostly useless to me other than plane trips and Omnifocus.
I'm off to Google VMWare Player on the Surface 3... that would make a surface a no-brainer. OneNote on Windows is sooo much better than OneNote on Mac. Put them together, and a Surface actually makes some sense to me.
--Jim (me)
I have never seen such a wide variance of price in hardware. You have tablets coming in around $150 and PC and Mac's priced over $2500 dollars. The Chromebook is baiting the market with cheap laptops that honestly are not so bad for what they do. I bought one just to see what all the fuss was about and I could honestly recommend it to people who do not need much more then a browser. Now let's talk Microsoft who has to not only face the fact that the OS is blurring importance over function and price. People used to care if it ran Windows or OS X or Linux. But not really that big of a deal now. The Surface line up has never been bad, but it has never inspired any group in large numbers to suddenly realize they need a Surface. Sure a Surface RT could work in education, even a Surface Pro 3 could work even better in education. But let's face it, education will buy a $150 Chromebook before a $1000 Surface Pro 3. Education will make due with a less useful device for that difference in change. Then Microsoft works with PC makers to create these Windows 8/ Bing OS machines to compete with the likes of Chromebook's for $250.
I see their motive for countering the Chromebook, but it also means selling a cheap PC and hurting your premium market at least a little. Its like Apple all of sudden making a $500 Macbook Air. Let's all realize that nobody is making money on $250 devices no matter if they are Chromebook's,PC's or Mac's. Google does not care, as they are trying to get users not OS users. Even Apple has to worry about the end user moving from a Mac or iPad to a Chromebook. I am sure not many will accept the compromises between a Mac and a Chromebook. But because a Chromebook basically runs just a browser. Their is less of a sluggish experience for the end user. Yea, Chrome OS is not a full OS, but to a end user who only uses a browsers. Does he or she really care as long as the Chromebook is as speedy as a Macbook Air? This question obviously get's examined with a Surface Pro 3 too. People will ask, do I need a $1000 tablet, or can I do what I want with one that costs much less? People are more educated about their technology needs and so they know if they need a core i7 or can they get by with a core i3.
Maybe even a Celeron duel core? I compare a Surface Pro 3 to a Tesla automobile. Both are brilliant designs and engineered well. The question is, how much market is out there for them. Can you make money selling them? If you cannot make money then you cannot call them successful.
Everybody went in for Windows as their favoutte desktop operating system a couple decades back. After XP, there is little to be gained from Microsoft's latter offerings in operating systems. So now we are seeing large migrations to Linux and larger numbers still sticking on with XP.
In the tablet marketplace, Microsoft is a recent entrant. iPad and Android tablets comfortably have more than 90% marketshare in this segment.
Microsoft started out with restrictions on what processor, screen size and memory can be offered by OEMs in tablet form factor, to try and prevent tablets eating away their desktop marketshare.
Then MS provided a convoluted method of delivering apps for tablet devices compared to desktop apps with similar functionality and architecture. Developers boycotted the entire Surface market as a result.
And the Surface is priced more than twice that of a laptop, despite the latter providing more usability and applications, once the OS is upgraded from 8 to 7. Yes, I meant upgraded, it wasn't a typo.
The moral of the story is You Cant Fool All The People All The Time, as Lincoln famously said. Remove the lock on the bootloader in all Surface tablet categories, Allow all Surfaces to connect to the Active Directory, Come up with more meaningful development tools and app for ARM Surface tablets, and lastly price it between $100 to $300 in varying configurations. People might be tempted to take notice.
If you keep throwing chairs, one day you'll break windows....
IMHO (TL;DR), the Surface Pro 3 is a great device but with an identity crisis without a real segment of users to cover.
Windows 8 was created precisely for such device, and since other vendors were reluctant to enter market with these specs, Microsoft actually used 8 to its full potential with their own design. It's the only place where 8.x actually makes total sense.
Problems were mainly with previous devices, let's be frank. That entire RT debacle was laughable, most people didn't understand why their Windows tablet wouldn't run their Windows software. As such, market was burned before the 3. But now, if you are on the market for such a beast, you'll have a great experience... which is part of the persisting problem. Why would you actually purchase such device?
- As a tablet? Most tablets are much less expensive, they don't run Windows software but why should they, as most ecosystems are now mature enough to forego Windows. As added bonus, their softwares are optimized precisely for these devices. Where you got a weird "traditional" mouse-and-keyboard Windows software trying to fit in a touch environment, you get a perfectly capable iOS or Android software doing exactly what you wish, with a great experience.
- As a laptop? Then you better get the keyboard, and even without it, the device itself is very expensive due to the digitizer and screen, which most laptop people won't care. It's less capable than equivalently priced laptops. It's more expensive than equivalently capable netbooks and laptops. Then for normal consumer, it might be worthwhile to get something such as a Chromebook.
So you need someone who wants a Windows PC with 8.x optimized applications, who loves using a tablet, such as a presentation device or with a propensity to draw with pens (artists - but not too specialized - GPU is poor), deeper pockets and doesn't mind a haphazard keyboard (even if the optional folding keyboard is well received, it's still a far cry from a standalone keyboard if you wish to use it in a train for example)
... to call it Surface. That more or less guarantees it will sink without trace.
After XP, there is little to be gained from Microsoft's latter offerings in operating systems.
Let me guess... you didn't try anything from Microsoft after Vista, did you?
If Microsoft thinks their big selling point is compatability with Windows applications, then by all means they should pull the plug on RT.
As to the Surface Pro, I think it suffers from one big glaring flaw: it runs Windows applications.
That means using menus, right clicks, and other such interface behaviours that are far from natural for a tablet/touch screen interface. What is needed for a successful tablet is an ecosystem of applications that are built just for tablet use. All the gestures in the world won't make it easy to right-click with one button (your finger), and let's face it: most of the useful functions of a Windows application interface are provided by the right-click menus.
Even something so trivial as the toolbars and buttons/icons have to be upscaled for a touch interface, otherwise you get touches/clicks on the wrong interface widget. That which is easily clicked by an accurate device like a mouse or touchpad is notoriously hard to nail down with a fat finger.
I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
He wrote it from the user's viewpoint. Not poweruser or developer.
For the average Joe, each Windows version changes everything but adds very few new things.
It is true that I gave up on Vista early. With Windows 8 and later, I had zero motivation to even try and install them on hardware that works perfectly with 7.
Some college and hospital apps do not work with 7, but do well with XP; besides Windows 7 required more RAM than XP; so we deceided to stick with XP.
If you keep throwing chairs, one day you'll break windows....
Everybody went in for Windows as their favoutte desktop operating system a couple decades back. After XP, there is little to be gained from Microsoft's latter offerings in operating systems. So now we are seeing large migrations to Linux and larger numbers still sticking on with XP.
I actually think that the operating systems after XP (read: NT 6.x) are precisely the ones that work really well and are nice to use. Of course the Windows 8 UI presents a problem, but the core is still robust and constantly improving.
Back in the day I liked Windows 2000 a lot, but skipped XP completely as it mostly was a bloated an unsecure version of 2000. I can't believe how sentimental people were towards a junkpile like XP when the support was ended.
I can't believe how sentimental people were towards a junkpile like XP
Sentimental, eh? More like hard-nosed and very very practical and down to earth.
Will XP get my real useful application software running? YES.
Will my software run on 7 or 8? NO.
So, no sentiment towards Microsoft - simply stick with what works.
Stuff that works isn't junkpile; stuff that consumes more space but gets in the way of getting work done is a large pile of junk. So the adjective suits Windows 7 or 8, not XP.
If you keep throwing chairs, one day you'll break windows....
They are killing off non-Intel as they didn't have an outside tool chain. They only really allowed HTML app development. It may have worked for the first iPhone, but instant death now.
No one wants Windows 8, even on the only device where it might be useful.
Most ships float - thus the rising tide does nothing but lift them.
The Surface ship has a lot of hole in it - junk software, incompatibility, poor user interface, price (the biggest hole), thus it is sinking. the only time it won't sink is when it is sitting on the bottom. The only time that is above water is if the tide is out...
TFA - especially the headline - is grossly misleading click-bait.
The story behind the latest numbers are that Microsoft has taken a write-down on investment in development of the *Surface Mini*. They scrapped that device only days before launch. When you do that, you have to write off all sunk cost on design and development of that product line.
Thus, those accounting numbers say *nothing* about how Surface Pro 3 - or indeed how the Surface line in general is performing in the market. For all we know demand is good but not excellent.
Tablet sales are tanking and PC sales are climbing again. If customers start to view tablets as "not for real work" Surface Pro 3 could be *the* device which is a perfect combination (compromise?) of PC and tablet.
For all the ridicule, Windows 8 does in fact deliver on being both a tablet as well as a PC operating system. The problem was never the tablet part nor the PC part - the main problem (especially with 8.0) was the rather poor integration (and yes, the fact that they tried to funnel desktop users through the "tablet" part to pent up demand for apps and attract developers).
Reading slashdot one-liner: (irm http://rss.slashdot.org/Slashdot/slashdot).rdf.item | fl title,desc*
As soon as googling reveals that Surface Pro 3 runs a mainstream Linux distro well, I'll consider one. (Apparently only keyboard support is hard.) In the meantime, no, I'm not interested in an Apple-style play where the hardware is wedded to the manufacturers OS.
A product released 5 years too late, the market is over before Microsoft got even started as always...
It's like dumping the superior OS/2 for windows....
The hardware is great..
A new post-Metro interface that requires you to use only your right finger. It doesn't have a start button or any app buttons and all the gestures are based on Serbo-Croation standard sign language.
Give it time. Give it space. It will win! Win the race!
Agreed. Windows RT was a dumb idea from a company that, like IBM before it, played host to a lot of dumb ideas.
M$ should have scaled up Windows Phone / Windows Mobile / Whatever and cranked out free Phone and Tablet compatible versions of Office. The hardware, from a design perspective is great, with a few flaws they should have fixed long ago: The membrane keyboard, Palm Check (why is it that Apple is the only one who got this right?), and a stylus that charges from the tablet's own charging port.
I've played with a few Surface tablets at a couple of Microsoft stores. Even the sales staff had a hard time with them.
Which is why I carry a MBP. I get Office. I don't have to carry a mouse and disable the trackpad. When I carry a tablet, I carry a Galaxy 10.1. I rarely carry both.
Only the dead have seen the end of War. - Plato
Over $2 billion for FY 2014. $409 million for the last quarter of 2014, which translates to a yearly pace of $409 million time four, or slightly over $1.6 billion. In other words, sales are falling.
But I bought a Surface 2 and a docking station to use a larger monitor / kb / mouse while at my desk.
I like the flexibility of it quite a bit - switching between the full desktop mode with dock, tablet, and being able to write with a stylus and use OneNote all on one device without having to sync this that and the other thing (except backup to the cloud of course!)
Skype is software. YOU could do skype.
As an owner of a Surface 2 RT I can concur with the negatives regarding the device and add a few of my own. Liking 8.1 on my desktop (but NOT 8) I wanted an inexpensive way to experience the full touchscreen capability. Fool me... The hardware may be great but the software, even ignoring the deliberate application lockout, is a mess. What is worse is that the problems that drive me crazy have been there since day one in the original Surface. Power management is erratic -- suspend doesn't, restart hangs unless connected to the charger regardless of battery state. Two different versions of IE, neither of which can be exited or respond to 'back'. Both the removable and on screen keyboard may just stop accepting keystrokes. Connecting/removing the detachable keyboard sometimes fixes it but not always -. else reboot. Gestures are a part time thing, no where near as consistent as my Android tablet. So a beautiful piece of kit that I should love except it is so inconsistent and unreliable that I dread using it for anything that matters. Not a good state of affairs. And having bought it from the MS store (nearest physical store is 3 hours drive away) one finds that in reality there are no returns and no exchanges -- they have my money and I have their junk. And their customer service people lie about what they will and won't do -- rubbing salt well into the wound. Could have been really nice if they cared to fix the problems -- but all too obviously they don't.
Hey,
Maybe I am late noticing, but... Where did the VERY APT borg icon for microsoft articles go?
...Apple.
They both want profits and revenue, they just look to different markets to do it. (There is, of course, overlap.)
Apple is all about the consumer space, and very little about business.
Microsoft is all about the business space, and very little about the consumer except in the console space (and the way the XBox One is going, that may not be for long anyhow...)
I'll be honest, I didn't expect much from the initial Surface and so I wasn't disappointed. The Surface 2 I thought was a mistake. The Surface 3 Pro that I used a few months ago - is pretty freaking awesome.
While Apple is pushing the consumer entertainment perspective of devices, Microsoft is going to lead the way to the PC/tablet/phone convergence in the work place. Yet again, they will succeed through Exchange and Office.
The irony being that Microsoft doesn't mind making money in the tablet space, but they really don't care about that. They care about ensuring that in 2018, whatever Phablet your company supplies you with (or requires you to buy to work there) is running MS Office 2018 and connecting to Exchange Server 2018...
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TFA - especially the headline - is grossly misleading click-bait.
No your incredible massacring of figures is grossly misleading. Ironically iPad sales and I suspect other high end tablets are failing. In context of this article and your post. It highlight why Microsoft foolishly in my opinion are not releasing a good value mini...albeit making windows free as in anti-user so others manufactures can. Small tablets and Phablets lets be honest tablets with phone functionality are growing substantially in fact Google(Nexus 6) and Apple(iPhone 6) are set to launch there own in 3.2.1...The minor raise in windows 8 comes from throwing its XP users under a bus without a lifeline. I am not sure if history will treat this as good idea retrospectively...especially with the growth in the chromebook market. It may satisfy investors but...
You may think the tablet delivers...but the rest of us(as in the world) don't and it is not for the massive investment on Microsoft's part...this is not the 1st generation its the 3rd and by every measure a failure. Perhaps they should get back to being a software company...the thing its monopoly matters in.
WinCE is still alive (not sure how well...) as "Windows Embedded Compact" intended for vertically integrated apps such as inventory management with handhelds. Maybe if the Surface RT had been about half its size ala the awesome (for its time) NEC MobilePro 900 with this updated CE (and Pocket Office restored) and with the modern hardware, it could have been interesting at least.
Hence "SurfaCE" ;-}
> Apple is all about the consumer space, and very little about business.
> Microsoft is all about the business space, and very little about the consumer
I'm not sure either company is happy about this, nor planned on it (not that you claimed either).
But of the two, which is in a better place? It seems business was perfectly happy with XP and 2007 running on older machines. There seems to be little reason for them to upgrade.
Consumers upgrade because they can and the products are low-end, but they don't buy software for $5000 a seat.
The crossover is the phone, and Apple's won that one hands down.
For now.
The standard Surface line, or in other words the "we want to be Apple line" is the problem.
I hate desktops they are large, loud, wires everywhere and laptops are not easy to handle if you are sitting on your couch or lying down in bed relaxing and just want to surf the web, read a pdf, or watch a dvd or streaming. Yes, dvd's are still a viable solution compared to streaming(crappy netflix and hulu junk). The only problem with laptops and tablets is that they don't generally last long due to heat issues and poor air circulation. It would be freaking nice if cpu's, apu's, gpu's all needed below 10 watts and dissipating 10c and below.
What is with all the hate?
You seem to be new here.
Wealth is the gift that keeps on giving.
How do you typically use your Surface? That "I don't bother to turn on my desktop anymore" comment is the same comment you hear from a lot of people enjoying the instant-on trait of a tablet, and in the tablet and touch screen world, iOS and Android are more familiar if you have one or the other on your smartphone (over 90% of smartphone users) and probably cheaper. "But it has a keyboard" -- but do you actually use it much though? I see that keyboard, and especially that kickstand method of propping up the screen, and immediately think I'd rather have a proper lightweight laptop, or a sub-$200 Chromebook (instant-on, great battery life).
It's an expensive niche product. Hell, even tablets are kind of a niche product. I sold my tablet because between my smartphone and laptop, I found I was never going to the tablet. I imagine that will only become more common with large-screen smartphones becoming the norm.
www.gaiageek.com
It's a lovely device, really. But windows, eww. I'd get one for myself, but the keyboard doesn't work with Linux, and is too cramped for my ogre hands.
Care about electronic freedom? Consider donating to the EFF!
How can you be so rude to these poor Redmond folks ? Linux forced them to build something quite solid and then their income stream dried up. Can't you feel with their need to push out the new-old-repainted XP and call it Windows 7 ?
These poor folks only want to make some coins. Do you really need to tell the truth in the face of their poverty ?
...to ever become an "executive".
It is locked-down to only run Dollarsoft OSs. Thanks a lot, I'll buy a device where I can install alternatives to the fatboy monopoly.
These are the ingredients Microsoft needs: Full windows compatibility (not RT), free internet, bluetooth/wifi/cellmodem built in, decent remote admin functionality. This would make the tablet good enough for business and sufficiently ok for home users.
But when the average computer illiterate consumer call me to fix their infested Microsoft machine or needs to buy a new one suddenly realizes need to buy another copy of Office, I explain the how it's understood by the "stereotypical Slashdot demographic" and they quickly understand.
Windows 8 has been great for helping me sell Macbooks and Chromebooks. The Office tax has converted quite a few people to Libre/OpenOffice and Google Docs.
And this is why Microsoft is sinking - because they've pissed of the people who do know, and now the people who do know are telling the people who don't and driving them to competitors. And as far as I'm concerned at this point - good riddance.
So actually, yes, quite a few people are making purchasing decisions based on the perceived righteousness of the company - at least those I talk to.
Will my software run on 7 or 8? NO.
Out of the 1200 bits of software I tested on 7 only 5 failed to run. Those 5 work with emulation. If I used a 32 bit ver of 7 those would have worked.
Win7/8 are better OS's (except for that fng gui). I spent the weekend messing around with installing XP. It is finiky and picky. If everything was not 'just right' it would blue screen. Much like the line it came from NT4 and 2k. Those both had hardware compat lists. If you stray off the list good luck. XP was just starting to get rid of that mentality. Win7 mostly just works with all hardware at this point.
However, here is the brass tacks. It is EOL. No more patches. That means do not use it for a general computer anymore on the internet. Not unless you like viruses. When it came out it was the most secure and stable version of windows at that point in time. At this point in time it is the most buggy/virus waiting to happen version. It has now been nearly 14 years. They may have made a fix or two since then.
I first read
"It's been exciting to see the response to the Surface Pro 3 from individuals and businesses alike..."
as
"It's been exciting to see the response to the Surface Pro, 3 from individuals and businesses alike..."
I sincerely feel if your software doesn't run in Windows 8...at the very least Windows 7 by now, Windows is not the problem.
M$ has been at this game since 2001 with the PocketPC; people just don't want their crap.
The only reason people buy systems like the X-Bone is because M$ either buys the game developer, like Bungee and makes certain that other games are strictly X-Bone.
I still can't say I understand why they changed the name.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
I use it much the same as the Android tablet I used to use. The keyboard helps also but is certainly not the reason I like it so much. It's FAST! That is why I love it. No more tap tap tap fuckmeyoupieceofshitadroidLOAD! Plus I don't have to be forced into using bullshit mobile sites that are difficult to deal with & have no option to "view full site". IMO most apps (iOS/Android) are useless, the full web site is usually much better. The Surface Pro also runs my employer's Cisco VPN client, useful for logging directly on to my machine at work when some light stuff needs to be done.
SLOWER TRAFFIC KEEP RIGHT
...and it's the best computer I have ever owned. Period.
I totally agree. Windows changes things from version to version for the sake of change. Where is the value add from going to new versions of windows? Why don't they quit messing with the UX and polish and harden the OS.
If one reads the computerworld article it makes far weaker claims than this post. It is talking about revenue and cost of revenue. It isn't clear about inventory on hand so to get a maximum figure it marks the manufactured but unsold Surface 3's at $0. Part of a $733 million charge came from the Surface mini (developed and never shipped). There never was any claim remotely as strong as Microsoft having lost close to $1.7b in a meaningful sense. This figure is coming from:
a) Whisper down the lane where articles are summarizing each other getting successively less qualified in their calculations.
b) Accounting being boring so the article writers not understanding what the original analyst (Jan Dawson at Jackdaw Research) was doing.
What made Microsoft so successful and ubiquitous was their cut-rate deals with OEMs to integration their OS and Office software in to every desktop on the planet. Now, when I walked in to the Microsoft Store to buy my wife a Surface Pro 3 i5 model, I discovered much to my dismay that they don't bundle Office in to their own product! Since she is a writer, Office was critical so we had to shell out an additional $150 on top of an already expensive device that doesn't even come with a keyboard you have to pay extra for, and things quickly add up. I think Microsoft is pricing themselves out of the market except for the rare people like me who is willing to pay a premium for performance and mind boggling light weight.
because windows 8 tied their flagship product to this other, non-buoyant vessel
I worked for a megolithic bank in 2013... Our budget for migrating away from Windows XP before the april 2014 deadline was $400,000,000. Four hundred million dollars. There wasn't even a line-item for "Windows 7 Licensing." This was all custom, ancient, poorly maintained, poorly written, poorly understood software migration.
You can bet your ass the executive leadership was "nostalgic" about XP.
Those are the things Microsoft should be focusing on to best their competitors today. Who was it who said "Hit it where they ain't"? Willie Keller I think. Apple wants lockin, Google wants data, Microsoft only wanting to sell software could be the winning move today.
Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.
Funny how giving a positive review of my Surface Pro gets modded -1 troll.
SLOWER TRAFFIC KEEP RIGHT
Probably is the Surface Pro is meant to be a laptop replacement while having tablet functionality. But as it turns out people are learning that tablets are intrinsically useless. But the Surface Pro suffers because of it's price. It's starting price of $800 gives you a Core i3 with 64GB of storage. This Acer laptop is also $800 but gives you a Core i7 with 1TB storage and a real graphics card made by Nvidia, cause you'll never know when Microsoft will actually bring their Halo games over to Windows. Why would you get a Surface Pro 3?
http://www.newegg.com/Product/...
When you watch the latest ads, Microsoft is trying to communicate a message that the new Surface Pro 3 is a device for Mac users who own (and have to carry around) both an iPad and a Macbook Air.
Essentially, they're conceding that Apple is still the "one to beat" in the tablet market -- and they think their best shot at improved sales is cannibalizing sales to people who invested in the Mac ecosystem with multiple portable devices already.
To me, that says "niche player"!
I think almost everyone agrees that the Surface has good hardware specs. Essentially, you can order it configured with all of the same options you can get in an Macbook Air (up to 8GB of RAM and an Intel core i5 or i7 CPU), so it would be no surprise if it performed every bit as well as one of those.
The problem is, MS still wants you to believe you should pay the high price of a Surface Pro 3 (compared to an iPad at least), because it will do double duty as your tablet and your laptop computer. I'd say that's not so compelling! I own an iPad Air with wifi and cellular data, and I also own a Macbook Pro notebook (issued to me by my employer). I take the iPad Air with me all the time when commuting to/from work, but I use it for things like reading the digital version of the morning newspaper, checking my new email, and maybe playing a casual game like Words with Friends. My notebook stays in a dock at work unless I know I'm going to some destination where I want a full blown computer setup for some length of time (like a business trip or a vacation, where I'll use it in the hotel room).
I'd rather not carry around a device with a keyboard attached if I'm just using it for reading and a little bit of web browsing, and I like the fact that even if my iPad gets broken or stolen, I have all of the really important data back on the notebook computer -- so it's not a big problem.
In a scenario where I was really going to be doing a lot of mobile work? It'd also be a plus to own and have BOTH devices with me, since that means at least double the battery life available to me without a need to recharge.
Ballmer was a wizard at making money by cranking up licensing, and losing money on hardware (RROD anyone?)
Remember kids, if you're not paying for the service, YOU ARE THE PRODUCT THAT IS BEING SOLD.
When it came out it was the most secure and stable version of windows at that point in time. At this point in time it is the most buggy/virus waiting to happen version.
Let's not forget that it also created a massive wild west for all sorts of malware before Service Pack 2.
I'm writing this on a windows 8.1 tablet (HP) and I'm also a user of Android Tablet, Ipad, and some others phones/touch interface.
A lot of people in this site and others sites point that windows 8(.1) are too much touch oriented to be good on a desktop, in fact, windows 8(.1) is also not ready to be used on a touch interface. Touch interface is not only a thing about how too choose the app you want to use, but also how to use, write, select, draw, etc. without a mouse and a keyboard, and on these points, none of the windows 8(.1) software are efficace here, they are 10 years late on any others interface, including the old windows CE/mobile interface that I had use for more than 5 years.
Ceci n'est pas une Signature !
I had some shakedown artist apparently "approved by Microsoft" hassle me about compliance last year (2013) and their evidence was a licence for NT4 purchased in 1998 which expired in 2000. Sorting out licencing shit from fifteen years ago is almost something to call in geologists to deal with.
It always surprises me that estimated costs for producing software never seem to take into account future migrations to other versions of the OS. I understand that a lot of executives don't stay around in the same business long enough to worry about that, but you'd think the accountants would want some kind of future planning contingency?
You're a temporary arrangement of matter sliding towards oblivion in a cold, uncaring universe
XP was always a steaming pile of poo. From the day it was launched with a new activation system that prevented you from trading license keys around on paper, to the day it was replaced with Vista (also steaming poo), XP was always pure crap. Windows 2000 was always superior to Windows XP until they stopped supporting it. Windows 7 was the first true replacement for Windows 2000.
If you have software that only works on XP, you have software you need to get rid of. Replace it, no matter the cost. If the replacement is going to lock you in to one particular (but different) version of Windows, look for alternatives. There is exactly zero reason that properly-written software should ever fail to work on a newer version of Windows. Microsoft goes out of their way to make everything backward compatible. There's no excuse. (That's not to say that Microsoft doesn't write a few turds of their own that won't work on newer versions of Windows. For example, Office 2000 on Windows 7. It obviously uses some undocumented "features" that have changed since it was released, to exactly the effect that they warn other developers about.)
If you're going to "stick with what works", you'll soon find that it no longer works. Then you're up the proverbial creek without the proverbial paddle. Things change. Deal with it or go out of business.
It's trying to be both an iPad and iMac to "bury the competition", but while that may sound simple as a boardroom rant implementation is not so easy and people actually want to use it as a product instead of a vector of market dominance. So the two things it's trying to be at once is sadly not that useful to the end user.
if it were half the price it currently is. $800+ is too much for a tablet, I don't care how powerful the processor is. Make a 10" tablet that runs the full Win8.1 Pro OS, give it a full size USB port, Ethernet port, SD memory card slot, and WI-FI, sell it for $400 or less. Instead companies make 7" phablets that have no USB, or no SD memory slot, or no Ethernet. They keep screwing themselves and losing money.
Software package written in 1998, during a boom, does not need a single patch until it cannot be used for reasons external to the company in 2013, during the tail end of a bust.
I mean, how do you plan for that? Executives in that company had no idea. Software was like "buildings" to them back in 1998, you build a corporate office space, spend 20 million bucks, then you just have to change lightbulbs for 30 years. They never expected the foundation to suddenly change into a different material out from under the building, and why would they, that isn't how engineering works.
I mean, I think they are finally coming around, but honestly, they went from being the only commercial mainframes in the country, to being huge commercial software consumers without changing their working methodologies, and in april they all had to pay for that...
Still it was probably a lot cheaper than "sticking with the times" for 15 years where they essentially were not paying the "cycle cost" of modern software.
Probably due to you complaining about mobile apps and android rather than actually reviewing your Surface Pro. (I'm not saying the mods are right, but your post did sound a bit trollish)
You're a temporary arrangement of matter sliding towards oblivion in a cold, uncaring universe
I love my Surface Pro 3. I use it for all of the things I use my iPad for, but added a few everyday things "mobile" devices cant, such as
I can do actual banking. The mobile "app" of my bank has limited functionality compared to the "desktop" website.
Watch a YouTube video. Who doesn't get frustrated when "the content owner has not released....". Yea, I have Chrome on Android so I know the request desktop site workaround, but what a PITA, and this bolsters my point.
There are a bunch of other websites where you can do the full suite of permissible activities, but only a frequently used subset of those activities on the "app". THis will probably change over time as apps improve, but for now, it's a major issue. And these are for the "everyday" things, not power users.
This article is from the end of last year. I admit I haven't looked at them since, maybe their not terrible now.
However, I have a Surface RT from work running an nvidia tegra 3. I can count on one hand the number of times I've used it. Mine is jailbroken to run classic start and putty and a few other things but it's locked down with a "secure" bootloader aka can't run fuck all else and is essentially an even more crippled version of Windows 8 (which I personally loathe). Kindles have gone this direction too, shitty walled gardens.
Don't vote for this kind of garbage with your money.
and .....yeah. It was my first in-depth experience with Win8, and not a good one. Layer on some buggy firmware, and boy did the good times roll.
Never let a lack of data get in the way of a good rant.
The one constant in the computing industry is "change". 1998 was a heady time in computers as they were completely changing entire businesses - how could anyone think that there would never be any more change even after Windows was overtaking the unixes that had previously prevaled (despite their incredible cost)?
It amazes me just how short-sighted so many people are. If you use something that didn't exist 10 years ago, then it's likely that something better/different will be around in the next 10 years.
You're a temporary arrangement of matter sliding towards oblivion in a cold, uncaring universe
Yes - here's a press release from 2001, so that is more than one decade (and I think my old Stylistic LT showed a ROM date in the 90's):
http://www.fujitsu.com/hk/news/pr/archives/2001/pen_tablet3500.html
Microsoft's dominance was in the Desktop. In other areas Mobile, Video Games, Servers, etc... Microsoft was just a major player, perhaps being #1 in the market but but not by the the huge margins it had on the Desktop.
With the traditional Desktop/Laptop market moving to Personal Computers that are more in a tablet small form factor, combined with the rise of development with non-platform particular languages, HTML 5, Java Script, Java, and Server Side processing. It is creating a fairer playing field for consumers to choose a platform.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
FTFA :- "Microsoft's losses on the tablet device at $US1.7 billion so far. But, still, Microsoft is serene: "It's been exciting to see the response to the Surface Pro 3 from individuals and businesses alike"
Yes, I have heard that people can get excited about losing big money. I once read a confession by a big gambler who said that he had experienced an orgasm on losing a big stake at a roulette wheel.
Keep at it Microsoft - right down to your last penny!
> Should Microsoft pull the plug on the tablet?
No. Why should they? It looks like the Surface is making money, it's just not penetrating the market to the extent of its competitors. A product doesn't have to pillage and burn all competitors to be viable. It has to make money. It appears to be doing so.
I'm saying this from the standpoint of never wanting to own one, for several reasons I won't go into now. But obviously some people like them. That's why there are different kinds of products, because different people have different needs.
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
I've been very put off by Windows 8, but I kept finding that I needed to support it and test against it so I took the plunge and got a Surface Pro 3 - it's really quite a nice machine. Windows 8 is bearable when using this as a tablet (though I use Classic Shell to put back a real start menu and have disabled that horrid ribbon UI on Windows Explorer)
So far, it's fitting a nice niche: ultra portable small notebook that can work quite well as a tablet and with enough battery life that I can walk away from my desk but have access to my business critical apps.
Visual Studio runs well on it and I can test/troubleshoot win 8 apps.
Basically, it's failing to suck... at least for what I'm using it for. That's pretty high praise from me since I have been such a hater of Win 8... this hardware actually makes it tolerable.
The Digital Sorceress
NP (No Problem) for me. Actually, running a lightweight Linux/DE such as Lubuntu 14.04 virtually is quite nice on my Lenovo Miix 2-10 (10-inch screen at 1920x1200 resolution). If I am not running any actual Windows apps, and put it in full-screen mode, it is hard to tell it is not native. The nice part is that Win8 is handling the hardware (screen, wifi, sound, keyboard - bluetooth and direct), and VirtalBox "translates" it well, with even at least simple touch of onscreen buttons, and a bit of scrolling (LXDE does not offer wide enough scroll bar settings to make that bit as easy as I would like, though). It does help, when I am not wearing my computer glasses, to reduce the resolution under Win8 to 1680x1050 (or lower if my eyes are really tired) - VBox adjusts to it almost instantly.
I fought the UEFI unlocking battle with the Lenovo firmware, but gave up after a while, and was about to return it (even though a 15% penalty), until I decided to give VBox/Lubuntu a shot, and was delighted how well it worked. When I tried that on my Acer W3, its older Atom 2xxx CPU just was not quite up to it, and it ran a LOT slower.
Works for me - YMMV
Will my software run on 7 or 8? NO.
Sorry about your crappy software. I have yet to find something that won't run on 8.
I got a Surface Pro 3 last month, and I totally love it. I do a lot of document editing, and the stylus makes it very easy. After a week of using OneNote, I was completely off paper. In fact, I'm on vacation right now doing business from my hammock, and I'm more productive than I usually am in my office. The screen is almost the same size as a piece of paper, and the high-res display makes it pleasant for reading. The fact that it's so easy to split the screen between two different documents makes it extremely easy and intuitive to input edits. I can't really say whether it's good for entertainment or gaming, because I have never used it for that. But for the office, it's perfect for me. I started using Linux in 2004, when MS was at its worst. Since then, they've improved tremendously and have won back my business. I still run Debian on my office server of course.
I got an Android tablet for the office last year, but I ended up never using it; doing anything useful was incredibly awkward. The Surface Pro 3 is what I hoped that tablet would be. The thing is, MS can afford to throw $1.7 billion at a problem until they get it right, and they have now gotten it right.
I changed over to a windows phone as it looks like its going to save me about $600 a year.
Win8 on a phone was a dream. Very tiny learning curve (hardest thing was opening a PDF*).
However, windows Surface has always seemed overpriced to me. As in 33% to 50% more.
The basic problem is that all my tablet needs can be met by a $150ish android tablet.
I prefer windows for my desktop. But there windows 8 is a bit more of a pain when using a mouse. I'll get used to it but i've been on the original windows paradigm and command lines since the early 1990s.
However- I made a complete shift to open source of my office functionality about 3 years ago. I will never buy an office suit again.
* Pdf readers have no "file open" functionality. You have to go to the red office tile and open the pdf there-- then it redirects you to the pdf reader of your choice. Once you've done this, you can reopen it in your PDF reader.
She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
The Surface Pro 2 was superior to the Surface Pro 3. This all hinges on two details
1. Screen size and ratio
2. Digitizer.
The N-trig digitizer is much inferior and part of the appeal of the Surface Pro 2 was that it offered Cintiq-like performance in a portable device. The hardware Wacom released was WORSE than the Surface Pro 2, and no other Laptop Maker produced anything in a tablet form that was better.
The Surface Pro 3 however, changed the two details that made it relevant by picking the awful N-trig digitizer to reduce weight and thickness, at the cost of the pen technology being absolutely useless for art, and the screen size is now too big to call it a tablet.
if I could install/run Linux on it just like on a laptop (a.k.a. mostly painlessly).
2c
I like the Surface hardware.
The problem is Microsoft's habit of killing support and forced upgrades (remember IE6, Zune, Visual Basic, etc).
At least if they unlocked the bootloader, I could continue to run Ubuntu on it after Microsoft's whims make Windows stop working on it.
I'd happily buy one if it had an unlocked bootloader.
But as it is now, you're buying an expensive brick.
>You can bet your ass the executive leadership was "nostalgic" about XP.
Tell the executive leadership that they should be doing a salary clawback on the developers for incompetence in software engineering, starting from the CTO on down.
Too bad they have other cash cows that can cover for losing 1/3 billion a quarter on a failing product line...
My school has very small desktops and I needed a laptop that I could balance on a small surface. I finally ended up with the small macbook air as the surface's keyboard does not support the computer. If I always had access to a big flat surface that would be one thing but you can't use that on your knee!
-- A cat is no trade for integrity!
Microsoft's hardware has always tended to be good (occasional flops aside) - it's always been the software side that stood mostly on the strength of it's market abuses rather than quality. And even the hardware tends to manifest that sentiment - I can't tell you how many high-quality game controllers I had to give up because MS had decided to make their hardware incompatible with *their own generic driver* so that you *had* to use the device-specific drivers to get them working - unlike every other joystick on the planet your old Microsoft Sidewinder Joystick/Wheel/Strategic Commander will *not* be recognized without its specific driver, which of course was never updated to support XP or later. And that was the last time I bought MS hardware.
--- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
I don't understand how an overpriced tablet can lose money. Perhaps it is all the advertising that is causing the sinkhole. All I know is that for the price they charge, a keyboard should be included. No keyboard, no sale to me.
The obvious reason for this is that the tablet market is saturated and people are happy with their existing tablets. There's no need to upgrade (see the recent iPad sales slump) right now. Microsoft may have a chance in the future when people's iPads start dying in droves or when compelling features are released that the masses perceive as valuable enough to upgrade.
I don't think Microsoft should stop Surface at all.
It has extreme promise to vastly exceed the loses it has already accumulated, and I think Microsoft should strive to hit the 10Billion a year loss threshold by 2020.
I know Microsoft can do it, the technology they provide to the world can easily match $10 Billion in losses by 2016, but only if they hunker down, and get to work.
Got Geometrodynamics? Awe, too hard to figure out? Too bad.
Why did someone mark this as troll when it's clear I'm simply saying that Microsoft treats the Surface as a "loss leader" in business market?
FFS people, get over yourselves. I don't care what OS you use or whose latest 'shiny thing' you want to buy. They're all tools in the toolbox as far as I'm concerned.
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Wait, you don't do gaming or work in the summer? What the hell do you do?!
Actually I do go to work... just not working from home after hours/weekends in the summer. Little to no gaming. Believe it or not, I actually go outside. And do stuff.
SLOWER TRAFFIC KEEP RIGHT
Impossible to compete with the mentality that Apple is the only way to go. Tablet has become synonymous with iPad.
When's the fire sale?
How well does it run Linux?
Oh, and why don't they just sell it with Ubuntu Touch on it? I'd get one.
My experience with Microsoft's Surface tablet has been horrific. I thought my initial experience was due to my learning curve but my IT dept confirmed the first tablet was flawed. I exchanged it but soon the second tablet started to act up. Unfortunately, Microsoft's customer service is even worse than their product. They are completely unhelpful. They refuse to provide remote support. They often jump to conclusions with no thorough diagnosis. When they try to diagnose, they can spend four hours on the hone without ever arriving at any clear conclusion. Rather, they force you to hard re-boot. Then, they take no responsibility to help you set up again. Worse, they simply will not admit that their product has flaws. They deny, deny, defend, defend. I will never, ever have anything to do with their products again. Ever.
P.S. Specific problems include: it disconnects from peripherals. If you have a wireless mouse or keyboard, they will go offline. If you also use a monitor, you also have to either a) unplug the monitor or b) add the MS keyboard in order to restart or uninstall/reinstall the peripheral. I've have so many problems with this that, even with MS keyboard and a USB mouse, the cursor disappeared. I had to guess where the cursor might be or i had to swipe all the way to a side and top or bottom then try to measure how to get back to a field i was trying to access. Why? Because Microsoft refused to acknowledge the issue and had no fix whatsoever. After about six months of arguing, and the progressive decline of the Surface, one kind person was finally on the phone one day and MS finally replaced my device. After saving all my files, and transferring everything to the new Surface, guess what? SAME PROBLEMS!!! Microsoft's response? Hard reboot or send the computer in for diagnostic. Insane! That company is destroying small businesses.
Tell the executive leadership that they should be doing a salary clawback on the developers for incompetence in software engineering, starting from the CTO on down.
That depends. The original software might have been written to run on Win95 or Win98, which had essentially zero inbuilt security. Later it might have been moved to XP without any budget for changes (e.g. "it runs fine if the filesystem is FAT32, or if we reset all the NTFS permissions to full control for the Everyone Group"), or with an absolute minimum budget to shoe-horn it onto XP. Plus, even the advice of a savvy CTO can be ignored by the other CEO/President/Board.
Alternatively, it might have been outsourced, and perhaps that contractor either no longer exists, or had an ironclad contract allowing them to weasel out of anything once the bank accepted the application.
Clawback is usually infeasible or too expensive for companies. It can work for governments because they have effectively infinite resources, no fiduciary responsibility to shareholders, plenty of prosecutors, and well-armed police/troops.
- T
Keep in mind that according to the OP, this was for some "mega-bank". You know, the kind of entity that's largely still based on COBOL applications from three decades prior running on long-dead mainframe emulations on nearly obsolete mainframes, unmodified because they no longer have anyone around who understands the original COBOL, or because they no longer even have the original COBOL. In 1998 they were probably too busy panicking over how they were going to remediate such systems for Y2K.
Objectively short-sighted, yes, but also subjectively understandable.
- T