Apple's Next Hit Could Be a Microsoft Surface Pro Clone

theodp writes "Good artists copy, great artists steal," Steve Jobs used to say. Having launched a perfectly-timed attack against Samsung and phablets with its iPhone 6 and iPhone 6 Plus, Leonid Bershidsky suggests that the next big thing from Apple will be a tablet-laptop a la Microsoft's Surface Pro 3. "Before yesterday's Apple [iPad] event," writes Bershidsky, "rumors were strong of an upcoming giant iPad, to be called iPad Pro or iPad Plus. There were even leaked pictures of a device with a 12.9-inch screen, bigger than the Surface Pro's 12-inch one. It didn't come this time, but it will. I've been expecting a touch-screen Apple laptop for a few years now, and keep being wrong.

Comments

It's the OS, Stupid

[nyctopterus]

To do this, Apple would need a new OS, or do some sort of horrible blend between OS X and iOS. That's not happening. I think there will be a bigger iPad at some point, but it will just run iOS. It won't be a convertible.

Re:It's the OS, Stupid

[Jane Q. Public]

To do this, Apple would need a new OS, or do some sort of horrible blend between OS X and iOS. That's not happening. I think there will be a bigger iPad at some point, but it will just run iOS. It won't be a convertible.

I agree. It doesn't need to be a convertible. Apple already makes perfectly serviceable, compatibly-sized Bluetooth keyboards, as well as mice and touchpads. Hell, I use them sometimes with Android devices. Why make a "convertible" at all, when you already have everything you need?

Re:It's the OS, Stupid

[Glasswire]

This is easy. You architect around the most complex platform , eg this 2-in-1 in laptop mode which would have a fast Core i5 or Core i7 as cpu running OS/X. When you detach the keyboard and put it into tablet mode, it adopts an iOS skin, with emulator to run iOS apps (which you already do indirectly when you're building iOS apps on an OS/.X system now). You have the ability though, to have OS/X apps / utilities in the background, possibly providing local cloud services to the tablet layer.
It's interesting that while Intel produces the underlying architecture for both Surface Pro and this hypothetical device, Microsoft and Bershidsky resist using Intel's "2-in-1" name for this kind of platform - even though the main system architecture (processor, IO hub etc) is all an Intel design.

Re:It's the OS, Stupid

[alen]

no they wouldn't
IOS on a tablet with a hard drive would be a nice laptop for most people

Re:It's the OS, Stupid

[jbolden]

If you look at the design of the A7 it has a lot of capabilities that iOS isn't using. I wouldn't be shocked if around 5 years from now it isn't OSX running in a compatibility mode with a few OSX applications running under emulation and/or being recompiled.

Re:It's the OS, Stupid

[nyctopterus]

An iPad with a hard drive? As in, a spinning disk? That doesn't sound very likely to me, to put it mildly.

Re:It's the OS, Stupid

[Jane Q. Public]

This is easy. You architect around the most complex platform , eg this 2-in-1 in laptop mode which would have a fast Core i5 or Core i7 as cpu running OS/X. When you detach the keyboard and put it into tablet mode, it adopts an iOS skin, with emulator to run iOS apps (which you already do indirectly when you're building iOS apps on an OS/.X system now). You have the ability though, to have OS/X apps / utilities in the background, possibly providing local cloud services to the tablet layer.

Ugh. The worst of both worlds.

It doesn't need two "modes". You can already use an external keyboard with iOS devices, just fine... just as you can with Android.

It isn't Apple that was behind in this field, it was Microsoft. THEY had to add touch. Other OSes already worked both ways.

Re:It's the OS, Stupid

[Jane Q. Public]

Spinning hard drives for mobile devices have been around for many years.

I used to have a Shark drive, which was basically large-pocket-sized. It used a tiny hard drive with removable platter cartridges.

Then IBM produced a tiny hard drive that fit inside Compact Flash cartridges. At the time, they had higher capacity than regular CF cards.

Of course that capacity advantage didn't last very long. Regardless, I think GP was probably referring to a Flash drive or SSD.

Re:It's the OS, Stupid

[angel'o'sphere]

iOS Apps run quite nicely on the emulator in OS X. To integrate them into OS X you only need a 'Dashboard' like sandbox and intrgrate the clipboard ... e voilia!

Re:It's the OS, Stupid

[Bing Tsher E]

It still needs to run a real OS, not gussied-up music player firmware.

Re:It's the OS, Stupid

[kaladorn]

Why not an SSD?

Re:It's the OS, Stupid

[BasilBrush]

iOS was not a development of the iPod firmware. That was an embedded OS called Pixo. iOS is Unix.

After the iPhone Apple released an iPhone-with-the-phone, and called it the iPod touch. But that wasn't simply a music player.

Re:It's the OS, Stupid

[MMC Monster]

You don't necessarily need a new OS which is a blend between OS X and iOS.

It's conceivable that you run a single application which can switch UI depending on how the device is being used. If the device is motionless, use a desktop/laptop UI. If the device is in motion, use the mobile UI.

At that point, the actual OS is only needed for file manipulation and management of background tasks (and can be either OS X or iOS).

Either way, the OS has to be able to interact with applications on either the desktop or the palm.

I'm betting that the Apple folks have been moving in this direction for quite some time.

Re:It's the OS, Stupid

[Anonymous Coward]

There is no iOS emulator on OS X only a simulator. These are very different things.

Re:It's the OS, Stupid

[ColdWetDog]

A bigger iPad. A bigger iPad.

The maxiPad?

I think not....

Re:It's the OS, Stupid

[Mr_Wisenheimer]

Why would they need a new OS? When Microsoft introduced the concept in 2002, they simply added the features into XP. Over the years, they added more and more touch and digitizer friendly features to Windows. Ubuntu has been trying to copy the Microsoft model with its Unity desktop manager, and KDE has most of the basic XP-Tablet features built in.

Windows now ships with features that lets it adapt to tablet, workstation, laptop, or media center paradigms.

All Apple really has to do is add support for basic tablet PC features (digitizers, touchscreen, screen rotation, maybe some non-desktop interface similar to what Windows added with 8). Sure, it's a big task and there is no evidence that it is present in Yosemite, so perhaps it is just a rumor (or perhaps Apple is going to ship the features with the next version of OSX or some kind of kludge like Microsoft's original Tablet version of XP).

While it probably would not be enough to get me to buy it, it would be something that was actually attractive to me (unlike the iPad) and I don't think that having a little more competition in the Tablet-ultrabook market is a bad thing, especially since it would allow the Apple aficionados to see what they have been missing out on for the last 12 years, things like taking notes on the screens of their laptops with a pen and having them synced up with the audio they are recording.

Re:It's the OS, Stupid

[Jane Q. Public]

The other responder had it correct. Both Android and iOS are variations on the Linux theme.

OS X and iOS are gradually being brought together. But as I stated a few years ago, with the advent of OS X 10.7 and especially 10.8, they need to stop making the desktop more like a mobile device, and instead make their mobile devices more like a desktop.

Today, I can actually work away from my office with a decent tablet, plus Bluetooth keyboard and mouse. For the heavier computation tasks, I can remote-control my home desktop. But in order for that to work well, it has to run desktop-like applications (word processing, spreadsheets, etc.).

Hell, I've even done that on an Android phone, with keyboard and mouse. But the screen is far too small to work on it that way for any great length of time.

Re:It's the OS, Stupid

[no1nose]

Posting here to undo accidental wrong moderation. But I agree, Apple already has everything needed with the Bluetooth keyboards and mice.

Re: It's the OS, Stupid

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean an OS based on a real UNIX and with real UNIX heritage, and not just a cheap copy?
Oh wait, iOS already fits that bill....

Re:It's the OS, Stupid

[Anonymous Coward]

Except mouse support in IOS.

Re: It's the OS, Stupid

[Anonymous Coward]

iOS is in no way based on Linux. It's based on UNIX.

Re:It's the OS, Stupid

[Greyfox]

17" ipad with a detachable keyboard. You know you want one.

Re: It's the OS, Stupid

[Jane Q. Public]

iOS is in no way based on Linux. It's based on UNIX.

Since you want to nitpick, NO. You're wrong. It's based on BSD, which is neither Linux or UNIX.

But all of them (Linux, UNIX, BSD) are posix-compliant, which is what many people mean these days when they say Linux, even if it's technically incorrect.

Re:It's the OS, Stupid

[flargleblarg]

IOS on a tablet with a hard drive would be a nice laptop for most people

2005 called and wants its thick, noisy, fagile tablet concept back.

Re:It's the OS, Stupid

[Anonymous Coward]

It still needs to run a real OS(...)

A real OS... like Windows, I presume?

Re:It's the OS, Stupid

[flargleblarg]

Spinning hard drives for mobile devices have been around for many years.

And.... thank god they're pretty much non-existant anymore.

Re: It's the OS, Stupid

[Anonymous Coward]

iOS is based on OS X, which is a proper UNIX.

http://www.opengroup.org/openbrand/register/brand3607.htm

BSD is UNIX too, it's just not allowed to call itself UNIX anymore... ;-

But you know what I mean anyway. GNU is not UNIX. OS X is.

Re: It's the OS, Stupid

[Bing Tsher E]

It's based on Mach, which is neither Linux nor BSD.

Apple didn't develop it. They bought NeXT, which had adapted it from Mach.

iOS is POSIX compliant? Don't be silly. There are whole chunks of the API not implemented. Sure, there are add-ons to make MacOS POSIX compliant. Just like there are add-ons for Windows NT.

Re: It's the OS, Stupid

[Anonymous Coward]

I have never ever heard anyone say "Linux" for "POSIX-compliant". That's just really weird.
Lots and lots of people say "Linux" for what RMS wants us to call "GNU/Linux", although Android is also Linux.
But I've never heard anyone say "Linux" for BSD, Solaris, Hurd, OS X, or anything else in the family.

Re:It's the OS, Stupid

[Jane Q. Public]

The problem was with the Bluetooth stack.

From at least 7.1 onward, you can enable functionality of mouse/touchpad. But it may not work quite the way you'd like. I do agree that they could improve how the mouse works in iOS. They are a bit behind the game on that.

The thing is that the tablet is evolving. It started out as just a "mobile device" but people are using them more and more for serious work. That means NOT just holding it in your hand or lap, but standing it up on a desk and using it as a desktop replacement in many cases.

That does require mouse (or trackpad, whatever). And Apple should pay attention.

Re: It's the OS, Stupid

[Jane Q. Public]

It's based on Mach, which is neither Linux nor BSD.

No, Apple's version of Darwin is very definitely based on BSD. Apple says so, Wikipedia says so, and you can see original BSD copyright notices in some command-line applications.

Apple didn't develop it. They bought NeXT, which had adapted it from Mach.

NeXT was a l--o--n--g time ago, man. Things have changed since.

iOS is POSIX compliant? Don't be silly. There are whole chunks of the API not implemented. Sure, there are add-ons to make MacOS POSIX compliant. Just like there are add-ons for Windows NT.

Where did you learn to read? I wrote that BSD, Linux, and UNIX are posix-compliant. I did NOT write that iOS, which is based on BSD, was posix-compliant. That is a different thing entirely.

Re:It's the OS, Stupid

[PopeRatzo]

OK, here's the reason I'd like to see this convertible, as long as it runs OSX:

Right now, the only tablet that's useful in music production is the Surface Pro. Because, it's the only tablet that can run a full version of the professional music production software. If I want a tablet that runs Pro Tools, it's got to be a Surface Pro, and touchscreens are terrific for music production. Especially if you're going to be drawing waveforms, mixing, scrubbing, or any of the other tactile interactions that musicians/music producers use.

I run MaxDSP on my Surface Pro, and the touchscreen allows me to access the full power of that program. Same thing with drawing envelopes in professional sampling software like Kontakt. It's amazing how much more productive you can be when you can interact directly with DAW software on a touchscreen or stylus. Of course, you can get Wacom tablets for your Macbook Pro, but with a lot of location production, the name of the game is portability.

Plus, with the Surface Pro, I can run all my VSTs and VSTi's. You can do none of these things on any iPad. The peripherals for music production that are made for the iPad are all merely toys. But since the Surface Pro has USB ports, I can plug in any keyboard, MIDI controller, pad controller, mixing controller or audio interface directly.

If Apple has any interest in taking back primacy in music production, it needs to build a Surface Pro clone. They got caught napping on that one, and need to play catch-up.

Plus, I'm sure Apple would love to have gotten that deal with the NFL for the tablets on the sidelines. As popular as the NFL is, that every Sunday viewers see their favorite football players and coaches reviewing live game film and play diagrams on the sidelines with Surface Pros should be a little embarrassing to Apple.

The ads on the back of the New Yorker showing famous photographers on top of the Himalayas, taking photographs on their iPads are too ridiculous for words. Apple could really score big with an ad that shows some popular music producer actually using an Apple portable product with a touch screen to produce music. The phony shots of Dr Dre (or whomever) using an iPad to create beats are just silly.

Re: It's the OS, Stupid

[Jane Q. Public]

iOS is based on OS X, which is a proper UNIX.

As I stated elsewhere on this page, no, iOS is based on BSD. OS X is also based on BSD, but that doesn't mean iOS is based on OS X.

There are many similarities, but for obvious reasons, they had to strip a lot out in iOS to make it practical for mobile hardware.

And no, BSD isn't UNIX, nor is OS X. They are posix-compliant operating systems, like Linux, AUX, and HP UX. None of them are actually UNIX anymore. All split from actual UNIX long ago. But they are all "unix-like" operating systems.

Re: It's the OS, Stupid

[Jane Q. Public]

I have never ever heard anyone say "Linux" for "POSIX-compliant". That's just really weird.

For a long time, lots of people referred to them as *nix. But that's hard to say.

I didn't say they were correct. Just that it's used. Many people today wouldn't know Red Hat from Qnix from BSD from Solaris from Debian. To them they're all "Linux", because they're not Windows.

Maybe you're not hanging around non-professionals much?

Re: It's the OS, Stupid

[Anonymous Coward]

UNIX is a brand (and specification). You obviously don't really know what you're talking about. OS X is UNIX, as are AIX or Solaris.

And as said, for legal reasons BSD is not UNIX anymore, however technically it is of course.

But Linux was always just a copy (by intention).

Re: It's the OS, Stupid

[Jane Q. Public]

You obviously don't really know what you're talking about.

That's pretty funny.

Just look it up. You're wrong.

Most of these OSes, including most flavors of Linux, are Posix-compliant. Posix is what passes for a standard for "Unix-like" operating systems these days. But that doesn't make them UNIX, any more than Linux is UNIX. They have all deviated from true UNIX (legally and otherwise) for a long time now. And Linux is definitely not UNIX. But it's Posix-compliant too.

And not all "Unix-like" OSes are even certified posix-compliant, though more of them could be. Because certification is expensive.

If you tried to tell a BSD dev that BSD is UNIX, if I were you I'd be prepared to get punched in the nose. They don't like that at all.

Re: It's the OS, Stupid

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's what Wikipedia says about OS X, BSD and Mach:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XNU

Re: It's the OS, Stupid

[Jane Q. Public]

Here's what Wikipedia says about OS X, BSD and Mach: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X...

Why don't you look it up directly, rather than making straw-man arguments involving XNU?

The very first paragraph links to the page on Darwin. And that page says this at the top:

Darwin is an open source Unix-like computer operating system released by Apple Inc. in 2000. It is composed of code developed by Apple, as well as code derived from NeXTSTEP, BSD, and other free software projects.

Darwin forms the core set of components upon which OS X and iOS are based. It is mostly POSIX compatible, but has never, by itself, been certified as being compatible with any version of POSIX. (OS X, since Leopard, has been certified as compatible with the Single UNIX Specification version 3 (SUSv3).[2][3][4])

So I stand corrected. BSD and OS X are not Posix-compliant. And actually I knew that, but I had forgotten. Still, I stand corrected.

Nevertheless, they still belong to the family of "Unix-like" operating systems, as I stated earlier. Quote:

The various BSD variants are notable in that they are in fact descendants of UNIX, developed by the University of California at Berkeley with UNIX source code from Bell Labs. However, the BSD code base has evolved since then, replacing all of the AT&T code. Since the BSD variants are not certified as compliant with the Single UNIX Specification (except for Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard and later), they are referred to as "UNIX-like".

So we were both partially correct. OS X, while being based on BSD, is compliant with the Single UNIX Specification, while BSD itself is not. There is still a lot of BSD in OS X, it is very far from all MACH. As I mentioned before, you can still even occasionaly see a BSD copyright comment in OS X code.

Re:It's the OS, Stupid

[Jane Q. Public]

OK, here's the reason I'd like to see this convertible, as long as it runs OSX:

I understand, but we were talking about two different things.

I would like to see more-powerful tablets, too. Whether they're Windows, iOS, or Android (or something else).

But that doesn't mean it has to be "convertible". As I mentioned, there are already quite adequate Bluetooth keyboards and meese around. Just put your tablet on a stand, use those, and you effectively have the same thing as a "convertible". That's all I meant.

But yes, I do agree that better processors, more RAM, and more storage in these things are good goals.

Re: It's the OS, Stupid

[Anonymous Coward]

We're getting there. There's obviously more BSD stuff, as part of Mach are only used for the kernel. Howver, it's still there. Check / - there is a file called mach_kernel ;-)

Re:It's the OS, Stupid

[Jane Q. Public]

I run MaxDSP on my Surface Pro, and the touchscreen allows me to access the full power of that program.

What I was getting at before is that with keyboard and mouse, and a powerful-enough tablet, I can work away from the office almost as well as I can at the office, because if it's too much for the tablet I can always just remote-control my office desktop from the tablet. That doesn't work as well for things like sound and video production, of course.

So yeah: the more powerful they make them, the better. Apple still has very nice sound support in OS X. If it could make the tablets powerful enough to run the software, that would be very cool.

Re:It's the OS, Stupid

[PopeRatzo]

What I was getting at before is that with keyboard and mouse, and a powerful-enough tablet,

Absolutely. The problem is not that the Apple tablets are not powerful enough, it's that iOS is not powerful enough.

Or maybe that's not right either. Maybe it's just that iOS is not designed for production, but rather for consumption.

Re:It's the OS, Stupid

[dgatwood]

Correct. With that said, although it is derived from OS X, there are some key differences that make it less than ideal for use in a laptop-like environment. In particular, pointing devices become a problem, in part because iOS doesn't really support them, and in part because apps aren't designed in ways that would work well with mice even if it did.

IMO, any usable hybrid device would really need to run the full OS X stack when in laptop mode, with UIKit running in a full-screen Simulator window when used as a tablet. Otherwise, it's just an iPad with an attached keyboard, which isn't really any more interesting than an iPad with a Bluetooth keyboard.

Re: It's the OS, Stupid

[Jane Q. Public]

Of course. I'm not denying that Mach is there. But in the minor versions since 10.7, they have stepped back somewhat from Mach and leaned a little more BSD. That's largely why they're Unix-compliant now but weren't before.

Re:It's the OS, Stupid

[BasilBrush]

The whole idea of a hybrid device is a nonstarter. It's failed over and over again for Microsoft, so why would anyone want to repeat that mistake?

If someone want's an ultraportable OSX class device they already have it in the Macbook Air. And as you say, if they want an iOS device with hardware keyboard, that's already provided for by bluetooth keyboards. Some providing clever case/stand solutions.

A hybrid will only ever be the worst of both, not the best of both.

Re:It's the OS, Stupid

[Anonymous Coward]

Nah...

iOS supports bluetooth keyboards already. That's what the Surface Pro IS effectively, is full version of the desktop OS, with a "touch UI" thown on top of it in tablet mode. Or at least that's what it should have been. Now given that the iOS emulator runs native OS X API's, it's pretty easy to see how OSX already has the touch stuff built into it (there's an entire iOS-looking system if you look for it.) So there's really no need for a "horrible blend."

Microsoft's absolute ****-up was trying to push the touch interface to desktop "mouse" users, which was anti-intuitive, and probably made people switch to OS X if they were already on the fence. In fact many of the "Hackintosh" people want the DESKTOP OS X experience, and it's Apple's lack of offering a headless Mac that keeps them from not buying authentic Mac hardware. Nearly all the Hackintosh people have a real mac, be it a MacMini or a high-end Mac Pro, and the entire reason for using the Hackintosh is they need something that has desktop class power, not laptop-class. Hell if it wasn't for the legality of it all I'd build one too (and did once.)

When it comes to laptops though, you're never going to build one yourself. Apple is the only vendor that actually sells "non-sucking" laptops if you will. HP sells nothing but the cheapest trash for laptops, and just about everyone else has gone out of business. It's incredibly painful to see people have to replace their Taiwan-brand laptop every 2 years, or watch people buy Chromebooks and then return them a month later because the build quality is rock-bottom.

If you want a decent laptop, you still have to pay more than what Apple offers to get it. There's no getting around it. Anything "Cheaper" than Apple is garbage.

Desktops are a different story. You can build a better desktop than what Apple offers, because Apple doesn't sell any Apple Desktops. They sell all-in-ones, the MacMini and the Mac Pro. The Mini is woefully unsuitable for most users, and the Mac Pro is too much for most users.

The Surface Pro 2 was the perfect compromise spot (the Surface Pro 3 is trash though.) Wacom digitizer, 16:9 IPS screen, decent battery life, right priced. The SP3 got rid of it's only selling feature (the Wacom digitizer) and replaced it favor of the much worse N-trig digitizer, and then made it thinner, lighter, larger, and unfortunately the RAM and CPU are fixed sizes. If you've ever had a Laptop before you know the stock RAM is pathetic, and needs to be replaced with the largest fastest modules available.

See this is where Apple can make some headway. Put the DESKTOP OS X with the touch interface while in Tablet mode, and the regular interface while in laptop mode. Put the Wacom digitizer in, with a retina display and a 16GB RAM unit and you will have the perfect portable graphics tablet that everyone wants and nobody offers.

Re: It's the OS, Stupid

[Anonymous Coward]

OS X is compliant since 10.5 though.

Re:It's the OS, Stupid

[Jane Q. Public]

I think Apple has been a bit slow accepting that tablets are inevitably going to be our "computers". Not just some kind of accessory. In some rather unwanted ways, in past upgrades, they tried to dumb down the OS X desktop OS to be more like iOS, rather then the other way around.

I understand that they want to "bring them together", but they are going to have to do that by improving iOS, not dumbing down OS X.

Re: It's the OS, Stupid

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh quit nitpicking you nerds...

From a legal perspective. OS X is UNIX
From a technical perspective OS X is UNIX, BSD is also UNIX
Linux is neither.

POSIX however, neither BSD or LINUX is compliant while OS X is.

So ultimately OS X is the only desktop UNIX out there. If OS X runs it, then it works on Unix. If it doesn't work on Linux or BSD, then the OS X should be considered the correct behavior. Keep in mind that POSIX does not define any GUI behavior.

Re:It's the OS, Stupid

[Jane Q. Public]

s/then/than You know what I meant.

Re:It's the OS, Stupid

[Applehu Akbar]

The latest OS X includes Handoff, which right now is just a way of starting work on one Apple device or computer and subsequently continuing it on another ("Handoff"). ArsTechnica, in their long-form review of OS X 10.10, has some details on the internals of this feature. It seems to be implemented in a way that would eventually allow for having client tasks on your iDevice interact with server processes on your remote OS X machine - or on a cloud server.

Re:It's the OS, Stupid

[Blaskowicz]

iPod classic. Oh crap, it was discontinued on Septermber 9 2014. Seems the 1.8" HDD have stagnated for years if they're even still made, and their niche has effectively ended.
On the other hand a 2.5" single platter, 5mm high drive exists, aimed at ultrabooks. It could easily fit in a Surface Pro clone. Have flash on M2 PCIe so that the user puts in whatever he want!

Re:It's the OS, Stupid

[SeaFox]

No, try a MacBook Air, running iOS, but with a regular Ethernet jack on it, too.

Why the MacBook Air? Because its so lightweight and gets such great battery life now -- would probably do even better if running iOS instead of full OSX.

Why iOS? Because it's much harder for the average computer illiterate person to screw up the machine, and it still lets them get on the Internet, use Facebook, access email, and play games, which is all they really care about anyway.

Why an Ethernet jack? Because wi-fi simply isn't good enough sometimes. Also what if the wireless router gets its settings wiped and needs to be reconfigured? WPS is not the answer. Also Internet technical support is not going to troubleshoot connectivity issues over wi-fi and take the results seriously.

Re:It's the OS, Stupid

[Blaskowicz]

Lately they have been new Taiwan brands in the laptop market. MSI, Gigabyte. They seem nice and "desktop like" in a sense (no stickers, can be bought without an OS, 1080p and 900p displays..). I propose you buy one and report later on build quality : )

Re: It's the OS, Stupid

[MikeMo]

Actually OS X IS certified UNIX. At least, Leopard was, and we can presume the successors are, too.

Re:It's the OS, Stupid

[flargleblarg]

Spinning magnetic disk drives are too big (physically) and frankly too fragile for mobile. The future is (for better or for worse) flash storage soldered to the motherboard. It's the only way to get lightweight mobile devices that are also extremely shock-resistant.

Re: It's the OS, Stupid

[KenHansen]

But all of them (Linux, UNIX, BSD) are posix-compliant, which is what many people mean these days when they say Linux, even if it's technically incorrect.

So is Windows Server... Does that mean OS X, Unix, BSD, and Windows Server are all 'sorta the samething'?

Re:It's the OS, Stupid

[jonbryce]

You can get a Thunderbolt / Ethernet adapter for the MacBook Air. The problem with an ethernet jack is that the Air is too thin for it.

Re: It's the OS, Stupid

[willy_me]

No, Apple gave up on getting certification some time ago. No one cared. Now OS X is like BSD in that it is just like UNIX but without the certification.

Re:It's the OS, Stupid

[Blaskowicz]

hard drive may mess the weight distribution up too.
But frankly there's not an exceptionnally strong reason for no removable flash storage, that'll be a commercial and design decision.
Flash can also get integrated right into the main CPU, or why not in a stack.
Seen a dumphone design on the web (chinese card phone) that consisted of only two chips, main SoC and radio. The SoC integrates some RAM and flash (has 8MB but not sure if the figure is for one or the other) and there's slots for SIM and micro-SD. So that's two removable storage devices, to be perfectly pedantic.

Re:It's the OS, Stupid

[Jeremy Erwin]

Can you even spec out a macbook with spinning disks? Last I checked, it was all SSDs.

Re:It's the OS, Stupid

[jeffb (2.718)]

2005 called...

Oh my God! Did you warn them? About Beta?

Re: It's the OS, Stupid

[silfen]

There are many similarities, but for obvious reasons, they had to strip a lot out in iOS to make it practical for mobile hardware

Sorry, but those reasons are not "obvious" to me. Mobile devices these days have the compute power of high-end desktops of only a few years ago, desktops that ran professional UNIX environments just fine. What was there to "strip out"?

Re: It's the OS, Stupid

[Anonymous Coward]

I highly recommend you stop making comments on a subject you know nothing about.

Apple has been getting UNIX 03 certification since 10.5 (Leopard). The recent 10.10 (Yosemite) release received certification on September 24, 2014.

http://www.opengroup.org/openbrand/register/apple.htm

Re: It's the OS, Stupid

[ToasterMonkey]

iOS is based on OS X, which is a proper UNIX.

As I stated elsewhere on this page, no, iOS is based on BSD. OS X is also based on BSD, but that doesn't mean iOS is based on OS X.

There are many similarities, but for obvious reasons, they had to strip a lot out in iOS to make it practical for mobile hardware.

And no, BSD isn't UNIX, nor is OS X. They are posix-compliant operating systems, like Linux, AUX, and HP UX. None of them are actually UNIX anymore. All split from actual UNIX long ago. But they are all "unix-like" operating systems.

Well since we're all nitpicking, UNIX(R) is a trademark, just like POSIX(R) and you can call your butt either one if it's certified.

_If_ the above systems are actually certified to be POSIX compliant to some degree, they could also be a test away from being UNIX certified, to some degree.

IF we're just calling all the above "[POSIX|UNIX]-like", they all qualify... to some degree.

Re:It's the OS, Stupid

[dgatwood]

It isn't the idea that is bad; it is the implementation. One device with two distinct interfaces is a recipe for epic failure. But a single, unified interface that can take input in more than one way is useful, assuming you can get developers to adopt it. Mind you, it isn't a game-changer, and it isn't something that would be useful for every app, which makes it a hard sell, but that doesn't mean the concept lacks merit.

For example, if I had a full-scale laptop with a touchscreen:

• In audio editing apps, I could just reach up and nudge three or four sliders at once, rather than click each of them one at a time. When I need to mute every channel but one, I could reach up and drag across the buttons. And so on. Because mixing isn't something that most people do frequently, you wouldn't have the "gorilla arm" problem. With that said, if you do find yourself doing a lot of mixing, you could always spin the screen around and use it as a tablet, all without interrupting what you're doing, changing apps, moving the content from one device to another, etc.
• In photo editing apps, you could swing the screen around flat, then treat it as a pressure-sensitive art tablet (using either finger press spread or a stylus to detect pressure). Then you could switch back to the normal mode to work with type layers, adjust layer effects, etc.

An iPad can theoretically do both of those things, but lacks the CPU power, storage capacity, and pointing precision to do aspects of either task well. And although you can buy physical control surfaces and digitizer tablets or use an iPad as a controller in conjunction with your laptop, that's nowhere near as convenient as having it all in a single package, and being able to just reach up and interact by touch occasionally.

Re:It's the OS, Stupid

[kylemonger]

Why would they need a new OS? When Microsoft introduced the concept in 2002, they simply added the features into XP.

*kaff* 1992.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W...

I used one of the early tablet/laptop convertible computers. Underpowered, underwhelming. The hybrid tablet/laptop has a thirty year history of failure. Microsoft kept trying it and kept failiing. A device that you can hold comfortably in your hand will never be the same device you want to sit in front of for hours doing work. Either the device will be too big to hold or the screen will be too small to work at for long periods. Since you're going to have different hardware anyway, you might as well have separate OSes and interfaces that take direct advantage of the hardware differences.

Re:It's the OS, Stupid

[SuperKendall]

What's wrong with using the iPad as a second screen, as some third party software lets you do?

Then you get touch and a traditional laptop.

All of the compelling uses I read about for something like the Surface have boiled down to pretty niche uses that are really not sustainable. It's nice that you like your Surface now, because it's not going to be around for many more years. Hopefully it will last you a while.

Re: It's the OS, Stupid

[mlts]

Technically, it sits on a Mach/XNU kernel, with a BSD userland.

If you want a kernel that has an unbroken heritage, the only mainstream OS out there that would have that would be Solaris, which was formerly a BSD kernel, but switched to a AT&T SVR4 kernel. AIX also started out from AT&T code, but went with an odd mix of BSD and AT&T userland items.

All and all, kernel heritage is one thing, but consider the application first. Would someone use QNX for a large-scale database cluster? Not really. Would one use AIX for a realtime microcontroller that has to check a sail switch every 500 ms, and then turn a valve off to a propane line if the sail switch shows not enough air? Not really. There are a lot of UNIX variants (and there were far more in the past... even Dell had their own SVR4 UNIX), so choose the best tool for the job.

Re:It's the OS, Stupid

[tepples]

if it's too much for the tablet I can always just remote-control my office desktop from the tablet.

How many cellular gigabytes per month does that use?

Re:It's the OS, Stupid

[mlts]

When I saw the iPad, I was assuming it would be the top tier tool for music production, with the ability to handle a lot of virtual sliders. However, in a lot of cases, it only can act as an interface. Can it run ProTools with all the extensions, as well as physically handle the license dongle that some stuff has? Not really. iOS keeps the apps so far away from the device's facilities that a musical application as high end as ProTools or Logic Pro would not be usable.

For music production, a hybrid tablet would be great, especially with Thunderbolt as a way to attach hardware cards. I can see a mini studio that would configured around a device like this, where the device resides in a horizontal cradle and can function as a real time mixer, synth, DAW, and other realtime tasks.

Re: It's the OS, Stupid

[dreamchaser]

You do know that OS X has been certified as a Unix operating system, right?

Re: It's the OS, Stupid

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, OS X is actually UNIX certified, so that may say something. http://www.opengroup.org/openbrand/register/brand3607.htm

It's definitively closer to Unix than Windows NT.

Re:It's the OS, Stupid

[mlts]

Nail. Head. Hit. I don't want yet another Windows Tablet PC. I want a tablet, but with a docking connector where I can put the tablet in a stand (preferably a stand that has some type of locking mechanism so I can physically lock the tablet down [1].) Of course, a lightweight dock/port replicator would be nice as well, so one could use the laptop as a monitor and a BT keyboard/mouse, and the replicator would give access to USB ports and whatnot.

[1]: It is too bulky, but I'd say the PowerBook Duo dock was one of the absolute best designed docks out there. The laptop was closed and was inserted like a large VCR tape, and locking it was trivial (since it used an active motor to dock/undock.) Maybe something similar for a tablet.

Re: It's the OS, Stupid

[American AC in Paris]

Apple didn't develop it. They bought NeXT, which had adapted it from Mach.

NeXT was a l--o--n--g time ago, man. Things have changed since.

...and as I recall, the guy who founded and ran NeXT was someone who not only was an Apple founder but came back to Apple later, as well. Ended up being pretty important at Apple, too, I think.

No, no, his name's right on the tip of my tongue...give me juuuuust a second...

Re: It's the OS, Stupid

[bmajik]

The NeXT heritage is still very strong in OSX

Calling it "Mach" is correct in the sense that the kernel is still the Mach microkernel, which came from NeXTSTEP. It does not have a BSD kernel.

It's BSD in the sense that _much_ of its userland is BSD, but certainly not all.

It also has many things that BSD does not have, which were proprietary from {NeXT/Open}STEP. For instance, the "netinfo" subsystem, the "defaults" subsystem, the plist architecture, Objective-C, XCode (which, afaik, is a modernization of NeXTs InterfaceBuilder).

OSX is much more like NeXTSTEP than it is *BSD.

Apple has of course added some more of its own stuff that isn't BSDish at all. Look at how the system startup stuff works, for instance.

If you tolerate people that want Linux called "GNU/Linux", because they are separating the userland and the kernel, the right thing to call OSX might be "BSD/Mach", but that nomenclature really ignores all of the things that NeXT did and that Apple has done since..

I spent lots of time on NS 3.3, OS 4.2, Rhapsody DRx, and every released version of OSX.

(in my view, OSX is a regression in usability from NeXTSTEP . Get off my lawn!)

Re:It's the OS, Stupid

[PopeRatzo]

For music production, a hybrid tablet would be great

I use one every day. It's called "Surface Pro". Full ProTools, full plug-in support, full peripheral support, touchscreen and power to spare.

Re:It's the OS, Stupid

[PopeRatzo]

What's wrong with using the iPad as a second screen

Portable music production means not having to carry two devices when one device will do.

All of the compelling uses I read about for something like the Surface have boiled down to pretty niche uses that are really not sustainable.

Music production, NFL sidelines. Those are two pretty high-profile niches.

It's nice that you like your Surface now, because it's not going to be around for many more years.

"Nyah, nyah!"

Re: It's the OS, Stupid

[drcagn]

http://www.opengroup.org/openb...

Re: It's the OS, Stupid

[harperska]

iOS is most definitely based on OS X. It started as a port of OS X, and it contains the same kernel and most of the same libraries such as core data and core animation.

Re: It's the OS, Stupid

[harperska]

Calling it "Mach" is correct in the sense that the kernel is still the Mach microkernel, which came from NeXTSTEP. It does not have a BSD kernel.

It's BSD in the sense that _much_ of its userland is BSD, but certainly not all.

It also has many things that BSD does not have, which were proprietary from {NeXT/Open}STEP. For instance, the "netinfo" subsystem, the "defaults" subsystem, the plist architecture, Objective-C, XCode (which, afaik, is a modernization of NeXTs InterfaceBuilder).

My understanding, which granted is mostly wikipedia based, is that it is too simplistic to just say that the kernel is Mach. XNU, the kernel used by OS X, iOS, and Darwin, isn't just Mach but rather a mishmash of Mach, the BSD kernel, and a bunch of custom code to implement all that other stuff you mentioned.

Re:It's the OS, Stupid

[XxtraLarGe]

To do this, Apple would need a new OS, or do some sort of horrible blend between OS X and iOS. That's not happening. I think there will be a bigger iPad at some point, but it will just run iOS. It won't be a convertible.

Macbook Air w/detachable keyboard? Keyboard detaches, and the system switches to Launchpad by default. They'd just need to allow the MacBook air have the ability to run any apps they downloaded from the iOS App Store in OS X. Seems like it would be easy enough to me.

Re: It's the OS, Stupid

[Jane Q. Public]

Actually OS X IS certified UNIX. At least, Leopard was, and we can presume the successors are, too.

Actually, someone corrected me on this quite a bit earlier. It's only partly correct, and I knew it before but my memory failed me.

The Single Unix Specification means an OS can call itself "UNIX". But the Single Unix Specification is actually not UNIX, it's really more of a certification scheme saying "if you can do this at a minimum, you can say you're UNIX, but you're still not core UNIX." That's why it's called "Single Unix Specification", and not just UNIX.

POSIX certification works much the same way.

But the point of confusion arises because NeXT, and Mach which were based on it, were themselves based on BSD, which is neither POSIX or Single Unix Specification compliant.

Nevertheless, the makers of OS X decided to pay for the (expensive) certification and got it.

Re:It's the OS, Stupid

[Jane Q. Public]

The problem with laptops is that "in your lap" is actually a terrible way to work, ergonomically.

The screen is way too low, causing you to hunch your back and neck; the monitor is too close, causing eye strain in many people. The keyboard in a laptop is put close to the screen so you can have palm space and a trackpad, but that's basically poor design, too, and again brings the screen too close. I could list many more problems.

Put your monitor more than an arm's length away. Use a separate keyboard & mouse or trackpad. THAT's what I mean by "we don't need a convertible". The arrangement I already described is BETTER in most circumstances. Using the screen attached to the keyboard should not be the default configuration, it should be a last resort, like if you have to use it in the backseat of a car.

Re:It's the OS, Stupid

[Anonymous Coward]

An emulator uses hardware assist to speed op processing compared to a simulator which completely simulates a device in software.

When debugging, xcode creates a x86 version of your application and the runs the application within an x86 version of iOS and an emulation of the hardware such as the touch screen and buttons. This allows your application to run at the same speed (actually faster) as a physical iphone/ipad.

Re:It's the OS, Stupid

[MrNaz]

SurfaceRT was a failure. The only way only explanation that I can think of for you asserting that the Surface Pro line has been a failure is if your head is located in a place that makes it difficult to see what's going on in the world around you.

Re:It's the OS, Stupid

[Anonymous Coward]

All of the compelling uses I read about for something like the Surface have boiled down to pretty niche uses

First off, the Surface Pro is basically the lightest touchscreen laptop around with comparable specs and similar sized screen, so whatever "niche" uses a laptop fills, the SPro fills those too. Now, here's what I use mine for:
- Reading and annotating PDF files.
- Directing presentations
- As my main desktop (with mini DP cable and USB hub. 2 cables to go from big screen desktop to tablet)

I think the real problem is that your head is crammed right up your own niche.

Re:It's the OS, Stupid

[Anonymous Coward]

No mice on IOS.

Re: It's the OS, Stupid

[Anonymous Coward]

I highly recommend you stop making comments on a subject you know nothing about.

Apple has been getting UNIX 03 certification since 10.5 (Leopard). The recent 10.10 (Yosemite) release received certification on September 24, 2014.

http://www.opengroup.org/openbrand/register/apple.htm

And for iOS?

Re: It's the OS, Stupid

[Karlt1]

Since you want to nitpick, NO. You're wrong. It's based on BSD, which is neither Linux or UNIX.

Well since you want to nitpick, no you're wrong. "Unix" is a standard administered by the Open Group. OS X has been certified as a Unix OS by the Open Group. IOS is based on OS X which is Unix, so IOS is based on Unix.

Re:It's the OS, Stupid

[Mr_Wisenheimer]

Hmm, the new Surface 3 has a very high resolution display (about the same size but with much more pixel real estate than my laptop) and it weighs about the same as the first generation of iPad.

Tablet PC's had a rough start, but advances in Intel's low power processors has made light and powerful tablet computers possible for the last five years or so and the Surface 3 and some of the similar units from Microsoft's hardware competitors seem to have finally hit the grand-slam that Microsoft was originally going for back in 2002.

Re:It's the OS, Stupid

[um... Lucas]

what would be cool is a combo unit... storage in the screen, along with an arm processor and its own gig of ram, along with intel processor in the body along with they keyboard. Attach the screen, and its a Macbook Air. Remove the screen, and you've got yourself a full featured iPad. And no matter which way you take the device, all your docs are stored locally, always accessible... I'd buy that, at least, so long as it was priced a bit less than the sum of a Macbook Air and iPad.

Re: It's the OS, Stupid

[um... Lucas]

Don't quote me one it, or maybe, yes you can. But BSD is real Unix, whereas Linux is posix compliant/compatible, but not a "real" unix.

Not that it really matters, it's all just semantics at this point, I think...

https://www.freebsd.org/doc/en...

Re: It's the OS, Stupid

[um... Lucas]

"So ultimately OS X is the only desktop UNIX out there. If OS X runs it, then it works on Unix. If it doesn't work on Linux or BSD, then the OS X should be considered the correct behavior. Keep in mind that POSIX does not define any GUI behavior."

I'd change that around...

If it works on Unix, then it will work on OS X. But just because something works on OS X does not mean that it'll work on any other Unix... you know, Cocoa libraries, Aqua UI, etc

Re:It's the OS, Stupid

[Boycott BMG]

When it comes to laptops though, you're never going to build one yourself. Apple is the only vendor that actually sells "non-sucking" laptops if you will. HP sells nothing but the cheapest trash for laptops, and just about everyone else has gone out of business. It's incredibly painful to see people have to replace their Taiwan-brand laptop every 2 years, or watch people buy Chromebooks and then return them a month later because the build quality is rock-bottom.

You know there are laptop manufacturers besides HP and Acer, right? Asus, Samsung, and Toshiba have traditionally had good reputations for quality.

Re:It's the OS, Stupid

[hawk]

Hey, I drive a convertible, you insensitive clod!

hawk

Re:It's the OS, Stupid

[Anonymous Coward]

It's failed over and over again for Microsoft, so why would anyone want to repeat that mistake?

On the contrary the Surface Pro 3 has been reviewed very favorably:
CNet
Engadget
TechRadar
TrustedReviews

You can argue all you want about how it may not fit your workflow but they have produced and undeniably good device. Macs still lack a touchscreen despite iOS apps easily being able to be compiled to x86 and run under OSX which results in you having to carry both a Macbook and an iPad even though technically it could be all done on one if the laptop had a touchscreen. Better for Apple if you have to buy 2 devices though I suppose.

Re:It's the OS, Stupid

[unencode200x]

I can do stuff like that right now on my Dell Precision MD3800 Ultrabook with Windows 8.1. 15" screen and super thin/touch screen. It's the nicest device for doing stuff I've ever had, perhaps tied with my iPhone.

Re:It's the OS, Stupid

[Optali]

To do this, Apple would need a new OS, or do some sort of horrible blend between OS X and iOS.

Like Yosemite for instance?

Re: It's the OS, Stupid

[Anonymous Coward]

MacOS X became UNIX certified in 2007.

Re: It's the OS, Stupid

[Anonymous Coward]

Steve... Steve Ballmer? :P

Re:It's the OS, Stupid

[beastofburdon]

We got some of these in at work recently. I have been dealing with them for almost a week now. I really hate the mousepad on these and they hate Linux. At least they didn't come with Win8.

Re:It's the OS, Stupid

[Jack Griffin]

You might have everything *you* need, but the the other 7 billion people out there might not necessarily have the same needs as you. Me for example, I like having a touch screen tablet for the train, then a USB connection to a docking station with dual 24" screens and full PC capability in the office. Even the Apple fanboys in our workplace have traded their iPads for Macbooks because the iPad is mostly useless for most people in a productivity setting.

Re:It's the OS, Stupid

[unencode200x]

Sorry to hear man. The mouse pad is multi-touch and has gestures. I turn most of them off as pinch/zoom works like crap on it. But scrolling with two fingers and two finger context menu work really nicely for me. I haven't run Linux on it yet. On Windows Firefox scrolling works great.

I'm looking forward to Windows 10 or whatever the heck they're going to call it to put on this thing. It took a little while to grow on me but it's now my favorite device for real work. Although, I'm getting an iPhone 6 soon so we'll see if that remains true :) Good luck!

Perfectly-timed?

[Anonymous Coward]

Someone will have to explain how putting out a device that immediately gets eclipsed by a Note 4 counted as a perfecry timed attack against Samsung

Re: Perfectly-timed?

[pchasco]

And also years after the original Note and after every other phone manufacturer was producing large phones? If it were not for Apple's former stubborn position on large phones Samsung would likely not become such a big player in the market.

Re:Perfectly-timed?

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly perfectly timed, my rear end, the have been saying small phone are where it is at no one would want a large one, while the competition has made larger screens for years, I have had my note2 for 2 years now. I guess perfectly timed means way late to the game on this one.

Re: Perfectly-timed?

[Anonymous Coward]

All Apple had to do was wait for Steve to die, then release a device with a screen bigger than Jobs would approve . VoilÃ! Then some jerk can self promote his garbage on Slashdot and proclaim its brilliance.

Re: Perfectly-timed?

[Anonymous Coward]

That's funny because Apple put out today's modern smartphone before every other phone manufacturer...and if it weren't for their former stubborn position on making useable smartphones, Apple would likely have never become a player in the market AT ALL.

Re:Perfectly-timed?

[BasilBrush]

Take a look at Samsung's sales figures and profits. They're both tanking. I'm not saying that's a result of the iPhone 6 though, they'd already started doing that before the iPhone 6 launch.

Re: Perfectly-timed?

[kaladorn]

AC, seriously? That doesn't even address the point raised.

The original poster sounds like an Apple fanboi. The iPhone6 was perfectly timed only in the sense of 'gosh, Samsung and others have been making lots of money off bigger phones... we'd better try to get some of that FINALLY.'.

Trying to copy Surface is.... coming late to the party too.

Apple hasn't really innovated much since Steve left the scene. Now it is trying to make progress not by inventing innovative new products that control new product spaces or create them, but instead by joining the party after the fact in several already busy sub-market areas and trying to fight with the other dogs over the bones.

Honestly, I hate a lot of things they did on the iPhone that they could have done differently without losing many of its truly positive features. There's no good reason backup is the mess it is (if you don't want to use Apple's chosen method and even a bit if you do) as just one example. But I will give credit where credit is due - they created a device most people seem to find usable (I don't, but that's probably just because I've been trained in other directions) and that doesn't tend to just shut off on my randomly in mid-day to run an update I didn't ask for (I'm looking at you, Android/Google).

The one thing the iPhone 3s and 4s had right is that I want a phone that fits in my pants front pocket. I don't want to need a cargo pocket. I also want a phone I can operate one-handed. The larger iPhone 5, 6, and the Samsung monstrosities as well don't accomodate that. I'm getting concerned that when my Nexus 4 dies, I won't be able to easily replace a highly capable phone in that form factor (instead having to buy either a bloated oversize phablet or settle for an incapable smaller phone).

Re:Perfectly-timed?

[BasilBrush]

How is a device that most people have never heard of "eclipsing" the iPhone. It's certainly not outselling it.

Re: Perfectly-timed?

[kaladorn]

An as an aside: As far as Surface goes, where's my affordable coffee table sized version? I kept seeing the ones they used in demos and early experimental development and THAT is what I want from Surface - an affordable, robust, coffee table sized touchscreen that can be married to many very cool applications and data visualizations.

Microsoft, where is this? I don't give a crap about small tablets or notablebooks (or convertibles). I want the big mid-livingroom coffee table you developed and I want it to be affordable in the consumer space.

Re: Perfectly-timed?

[Anonymous Coward]

The original surface (surface 1.0) was renamed pixelsense around the time they launched the tablets to avoid confusion. is that what you want?

If so, available on general sale eg http://www.misco.co.uk/product/Q505997/Samsung-SUR40-with-Microsoft-PixelSense-Legs-Not-Included

Otherwise, if you're saying you saw large demo versions of the surface (new) for coffee table use, I'm not sure - though HP, Lenovo etc do 'portable' large screen tablet/desktop hybrids that may fit. Though, as I say, never seen an MS version.

Re: Perfectly-timed?

[whoever57]

Apple hasn't really innovated much since Steve left the scene.

And for a long time before Steve left the scene. Apple has been a success by letting other companies release new types of devices and then execute their own version of that type of device. Apple did not create the first portable music player, the first smartphone, the first WIMP interface, etc.. Apple's success has largely been down to executing arguably better versions of devices that already exist in the marketplace. Now, Apple is also benefitting from being perceived as a luxury brand.

Re:Perfectly-timed?

[whoever57]

Take a look at Samsung's sales figures and profits. They're both tanking. I'm not saying that's a result of the iPhone 6 though, they'd already started doing that before the iPhone 6 launch.

For the most part, Samsung doesn't really compete with Apple, Samsung competes with the many other manufacturers of Android phones. It's only in the flagship products (Galaxy, Note) where there is competition with Apple, but I don't think that these represent the bulk of Samsung's sales outside the USA.

Re: Perfectly-timed?

[Gr8Apes]

Samsung and others have been making lots of money off bigger phones.

You might want to review that statement, Apple appears to be cleaning house on the money side, taking 87% of the profit in the market.

Re:Perfectly-timed?

[ranton]

How is a device that most people have never heard of "eclipsing" the iPhone. It's certainly not outselling it.

How do you figure that Samsung hasn't eclipsed the iPhone? They sell more phones each year by a wide margin (Samsung: 444 million vs Apple: 151 million in 2013), and are on par with Apple when you only count phones that are comparable with the iPhone (about a third of their sales).

When you look at the quality of the phone features, Samsung really has the iPhone beat. I was contemplating moving to the iPhone when they announced their larger models since I have an iPad and would like my phone and tablet to be within the same app ecosystem. But details about the Note 4 and rumors about the S6 make the iPhone look really bad.

Apple does have Samsung beat in marketing and brand awareness, which helps them have far more profit (for now). But with the inferior phones they have produced over the past couple years it is hard to see them continuing their dominance over the next decade. Their tablets are still the best though (IMHO).

Re: Perfectly-timed?

[Anonymous Coward]

besides the fairly large handful of thin rectangular phones that came out before it, and the dozens of PDA phones before that, APPLE IS GAWD!!!

Re: Perfectly-timed?

[Osgeld]

also with a heavy dose of stylizing and marketing, and though the fanboi's will come out of the woodwork to kill me on this ... even some of the stuff Jobs let out there wasnt all that great (puck mouse)

Re: Perfectly-timed?

[Anonymous Coward]

problem with Apple is its hard to nail down what that market really is, it seems to always be changing so is this the computer market that iPad was lummped in for a quarter just to make those numbers look good, or the personal entertainment market that the iPod gets lumpped in along with speakers and headphones?

cause it sure as fuck aint phones

Re:Perfectly-timed?

[BitZtream]

Well, the Note 4 will have to eclipse something before there will be a need to explain anything to you.

Just because you're geek drool is pouring doesn't mean the general public cares.

Re:Perfectly-timed?

[BitZtream]

The statement was that the Note 4 hasn't eclipsed the iPhone nor is it out selling it. That statement is true.

Samsung also sells microwaves and TVs, so that means they are outselling the iPhone as well, right? No, it doesn't, thats not what the discussion about. We're not talking about throw away free phones which is what samsung excels at.

The details about the Note 4 don't mean shit when the implementation on a whole is crap. Samsung is going to have to get away from Android and the fact that everything about it screams poor experience because its purpose is to basically steal information about the user to serve the user ads.

Theres a reason Samsung is considering dumping Android. Maybe then will they be able to produce a competing product.

You're one of those guys that thinks raw specs are all that matters for comparisons ... which is why we all drive race cars to and from work and the store.

Re:Perfectly-timed?

[ranton]

The statement was that the Note 4 hasn't eclipsed the iPhone nor is it out selling it. That statement is true.

It isn't really fair to just compare the Note 4 to the iPhone, since one of the primary benefit Samsung has going for it is options (although Apple closed this gap with the 6 and 6 plus). You need to compare the iPhone to the Note 4 and Galaxy S5/6, where the gap in sales is not nearly as large. And that is almost the only thing Apple has going for it is its better marketing / sales. That clearly would make me want to own Apple stock instead of Samsung stock, but it doesn't have anything to do with which phone I would want to buy.

The details about the Note 4 don't mean shit when the implementation on a whole is crap. Samsung is going to have to get away from Android and the fact that everything about it screams poor experience because its purpose is to basically steal information about the user to serve the user ads.

Those are all very subjective comparisons. I have only owned Galaxy Sx phones, not a Note, but the user experience has been great. I only know one person who switched from Apple to Samsung, but he greatly preferred the Samsung phone. Both your and my experience is very anecdotal though, and mostly meaningless.

You're one of those guys that thinks raw specs are all that matters for comparisons ... which is why we all drive race cars to and from work and the store.

It has been about 2-3 years since most phone specs mattered (IMHO) for most phones. But there are significant spec advantages for the Note 4 compared to the iPhone 6 Plus. The screen is much better, 3x the RAM (usually not a deciding factor with high end phones, but seriously only 1 GB Apple?), much better back and front cameras, and expandable memory. It is striking that the iPhone 6 Plus is just so inferior to a product that was launching just a month later. But the biggest advantage the Note 4 has is its multitasking capabilities not its specs.

This only thing Apple has going for it is a larger user base, so apps such as Facetime can almost single-handedly keep customers staying with Apple.

Re: Perfectly-timed?

[ganjadude]

What next? Apple patents the large form factor phone??

Re: Perfectly-timed?

[ganjadude]

The phone came out a month ago, of course it will, everyone who has an iphone and can is upgrading, others have.been waiting for a bigger iphone. Lets wait a year, at least a quarter beore who go claiming that they are all of a sudden owning the large form factor

Re:Perfectly-timed?

[pherthyl]

For the most part, Samsung doesn't really compete with Apple, Samsung competes with the many other manufacturers of Android phones. It's only in the flagship products (Galaxy, Note) where there is competition with Apple, but I don't think that these represent the bulk of Samsung's sales outside the USA.

I don't know their profit breakdown, but I would imagine that a disproportionate percentage of their profits come from flagship phones. The profit margin on the low end stuff is razor thin because they are competing with everyone else out there.

Re: Perfectly-timed?

[Gr8Apes]

Apple has owned the profit margin for years. It's not only this one quarter.

Re: Perfectly-timed?

[Gr8Apes]

But it is.

Re: Perfectly-timed?

[gnasher719]

You might want to review that statement, Apple appears to be cleaning house on the money side, taking 87% of the profit in the market. [businessinsider.com]

Worse for Apple's competitors, that was in Feb. 2014. Since then Samsung is in trouble (sorry, Samsung isn't but I bet some Samsung executives are) because their profits in the mobile market have dropped by 70% from last year, and Apple can't build the iPhone 6 fast enough (about 20 million sold worldwide and 20 million pre-ordered in China alone).

Re:Perfectly-timed?

[BasilBrush]

It isn't really fair to just compare the Note 4 to the iPhone

The claim I responded to was that the Galaxy Note 4 was eclipsing the iPhone. You can't claim it's unfair to point out the facts that disprove it.

Re:Perfectly-timed?

[Anonymous Coward]

Take a look at Samsung's sales figures and profits. They're both tanking.

Not being a Samsung shareholder I don't really care about Samsung's sales figures and profits, just like I don't care about the financial position of the Linux foundation or Microsoft or Apple. Companies like Apple and Microsoft thrive based on marketing, lock-in and shady business deals rather than the technical merits of their products.

I'm not saying that's a result of the iPhone 6 though, they'd already started doing that before the iPhone 6 launch.

So what's your point?

Re: Perfectly-timed?

[kaladorn]

This is the scale of what I want (although I'd take the screen and mount it into a hardwood table). The price tag is.... insanity. That's about $9-11K Canadian. I can get a 60" LED smart TV with a 4K screen for under $2K.

So, yes, this is what I want, along with some of the neat software for it and some of the hardware that interfaces with the screen. And I'd like it in the $2500 or less range which should be achievable with economies of large production scale.

Perfectly-timed?

[ts383]

Someone will have to explain how putting out a device that immediately gets eclipsed by a Note 4 counted as a perfecry timed attack against Samsung

Bad idea

[tomhath]

I've been expecting a touch-screen Apple laptop for a few years now, and keep being wrong.

That's because a touch-screen laptop is a terrible idea. Today's phones are powerful enough with a docking station that includes a monitor, keyboard, and mouse.

Re:Bad idea

[Anonymous Coward]

But the MS surface is not a laptop, it is a x86 computer in tablet form. And I like mine, fits in a really small case rather than a bigger laptop bag, While the screen is small at around 11 inches it can be hooked up to a monitor keyboard and mouse when at home, works great on the road. The surface is a road warriors best friend when it comes to traveling.

-Dave

Re:Bad idea

[colin_faber]

I find my new touch screen laptop reasonably good. I do find I use the touch screen portion of it on applications (mostly html5) frequently. Though the finger prints on the screen still piss me the $#%@ off. ;)

Re:Bad idea

[Scot Seese]

Sharp observers would notice the phrase "Desktop Class" used in Apple keynotes the last year or two, when describing the power of their A# mobile processors.

I for one would not be surprised if Apple released a 12" "WorkBook" that is essentially a 12" iPad with full keyboard & touchpad, running iOS w/2gb RAM. Their entire "office" suite - iWork - is already a complete feature copy of the OS X version - all that's missing from making it truly useful on the iPad is .. a quality keyboard.

Re:Bad idea

[JaredOfEuropa]

The phone may be powerful enough but you need an OS to match. In that sense, MS perhaps had the right idea to converge their mobile and desktop OS, even if they did it in a horrible way. At some point we'll see devices that work in 2 modes: a non-multitasking one (or with limited multitasking), geared towards small screens and touch input when running on the portable device, and a multitasking mode geared towards large screens and separate input devices, for when the phone is docked on the desktop. Merely adding a keyboard and mouse to an iPhone / iPad is going to be crap.

Re:Bad idea

[Anonymous Coward]

I've found the solution to screen smudges: Stop touching your screen.

Re:Bad idea

[93 Escort Wagon]

Sleeve cases for laptops are nothing new - I had one for my second-generation MacBook Air.

I know there really are people like you who like the Surface - I work with a Windows admin that loves his. But having used the latest Pro 3 with the "good" type cover... I don't get the love. Typing is awful, the trackpad is awful, and having to take one of your hands off that keyboard to touch the screen is slow as hell. I watch my coworker use his, and every time he reaches for the screen it's like whatever he's doing shifts to slow motion. it sure looks like a bad concept from top to bottom.

Re:Bad idea

[Anonymous Coward]

Like my Motorola Lapdock for the Bioinic. I really could leave my notebook/laptop PC at home when traveling with that combo - might yet go back to it.

  I think Google killed the enabling Webtop software for that mode to protect Chrome OS, so now we have to wait for someone else to re-invent it, and see if they can get it right this time with long-term support. The new Asus Padphone X looks like a step in that direction with the tablet style dock upping the resolution. However, the initial pix look as though it keeps the phone UI instead of a large screen UI as Webtop did for the Lapdock. Oh well, maybe the next step will be to offer an additional option of a clamshell notebook PC style like the Lapdock (based on the Transformer platforms?) with a "new, improved" Webtop-like UI.

I keep hoping Canonical will make good on their hyped Ubuntu Phone concept, but that seems to be stalled in "pre-beta" indefinitely for Nexus only. Maybe if they teamed up with CyanogenMod to make it compatible with most Android-based devices for anyone to install ala CM, it could be revived...

Re:Bad idea

[Anonymous Coward]

I never use the trackpad, it's useless. I use the active stylus heavily. OneNote is amazing. Before that I'd used a LiveScribe pen, and various Samsung Note devices. Nothing compares to the Surface Pro with OneNote.

Re:Bad idea

[typhoonius]

I could see that. What I can't see in a million years is an OS X tablet, which is what an Apple version of the Surface Pro would be. It just doesn't make any sense with Apple's platform strategy.

Frankly, the only reason Microsoft takes this approach is because of the massive disparity between regular Windows apps and Metro apps. Being able to run the massive library of Windows applications is the primary thing that makes the devices useful. Apple has no such problem with iOS.

Re:Bad idea

[thegarbz]

I've been expecting a touch-screen Apple laptop for a few years now, and keep being wrong.

That's because a touch-screen laptop is a terrible idea.

And yet I really enjoy working with mine. Granted I wouldn't be able to live without the mouse and keyboard, but a touch-screen augments it really nicely.

Re:Bad idea

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been expecting a touch-screen Apple laptop for a few years now, and keep being wrong.

That's because a touch-screen laptop is a terrible idea. Today's phones are powerful enough with a docking station that includes a monitor, keyboard, and mouse.

Except iOS doesn't support mouse.

Re:Bad idea

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple fan boy move along.

Are we really going to call it a clone?

[berchca]

Isn't a big iPad just a big iPad?

Re:Are we really going to call it a clone?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes. And I want one. I do not want a Surface.

Re:Are we really going to call it a clone?

[Tablizer]

Isn't a big iPad just a big iPad?

No, it's an iTable

I can't wait!

[Anonymous Coward]

OMG! I can't wait for Apple to tell me what I want next!

ipoo

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple can shit in a box and people will buy it.

Re:ipoo

[Anonymous Coward]

Macbook Cube! It's the same Macbook, only 1/9th the size! Ahahaha, it's brilliant!

Re:ipoo

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple can shit in a box and people will buy it.

And the Samsung fanbois are just as rabid, so knock it off with this shit already. It's bad enough we have to read summaries that are literally comparing less than an inch larger of screen specs with the "mine is bigger" defense.

I mean fuck, why don't users just start whipping their dicks and tits out already.

Of course, when that happens, these two companies will be in a huge patent war over who's ruler is better.

Re:ipoo

[itzly]

Starbucks makes expensive rubbish, but people are lining up to buy it. I doesn't have to be good, as long as it's hip.

Re:ipoo

[Anonymous Coward]

> You claim that Apple could make products that are worse than rubbish and people would buy them. What makes you think that?

By popularity, Microsoft products are the best selling technology products of all, across all of their product lines.

QED

Re:ipoo

[armanox]

Well, I'm holding off on buying the new iPhone (despite being able to upgrade) in hopes that some of the bugs in iOS 8 will get ironed out soon. Otherwise, I may buy a Windows phone next.

Re:ipoo

[occasional_dabbler]

Strange. Apple makes the best products

Best?

For whom? By what standards?

They make some very good products and have a consistent and effective design language but they are as much a fashion company now as a technology one.

Re:ipoo

[Anonymous Coward]

best? not by a wide margin.

apple makes average products. slaps a high price on them. and the fanboys circlejerk that it's the best thing EVER!

they're also one of the most litigious and douchebaggy companys around and trat people like morons.
"you're holding it wrong"

They are proof hype and bullshit can beat quality and performance anyday.

Re: ipoo

[Anonymous Coward]

Squirt it out your zunehole fanboi

Re: ipoo

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple can shit in a box and people will buy it.

Already happened, many times.

Re:ipoo

[worf_mo]

"You're smelling it wrong"...

third case

[Hognoxious]

... and imbeciles leave out the opening quotation mark.

"Perfectly timed"?

[QuietLagoon]

Seems to me that Apple is playing catch-up in the phablet arena. Apple was late to the party and lost the toehold because of its tardiness.

Re:"Perfectly timed"?

[KingOfBLASH]

The fact of the matter is EVERYONE is playing catch up.

When the iPhone 6 (and +) came out, android users started talking about how they'd had swiftkey keyboards, etc., for YEARS.

They conveniently forget about things like how Samsung came out with a fingerprint sensor after apple's introduction, or any of the other features phablet makers played follow to leader to Apple on, like a half baked watch Samsung got out on rumours of the Apple Watch so they could be the first mover.

This is the nature of competition. Samsung, Apple, Microsoft, and any other phablet makers are going to innovate. They'll create unique features for their products. A few years down the road, anything that was a brilliant idea is going to get copied.

So can we please all stop this b.s. of "X is copying Y"?

Re:"Perfectly timed"?

[Anubis IV]

Yup. I like Apple, but even I consider "perfectly timed" to be a case of revisionist history.

The rest of the summary falls apart under scrutiny too. Microsoft can do the Surface Pro 3 because it has a common OS across both platforms. Apple does not. In fact, despite some recent iOS-ification of OS X moves, Apple has always publicly stated that they think the two should remain separate, and with Yosemite they've made it ABUNDANTLY clear to anyone paying attention that they really do view them as two separate classes of devices intended for two entirely different sets of tasks and that each class should have an OS that fits it. Yosemite is one giant, "Now that we've finally decided we're not turning OS X into iOS, we need to give OS X users more control and then make the two OSes work well with each other" step.

In looking through the features that it shares with iOS (e.g. iCloud, Extensions, flat UI appearance, etc.), the one trend I keep seeing repeated is that Yosemite was allowed to diverge from iOS in a number of ways that make it more powerful (e.g. able to directly manipulate files in iCloud Drive, more varied types of Extensions allowed, more ability to customize the UI's appearance now than anytime in recent history), rather than being constrained to only do as much as iOS, which had been the somewhat worrying trend of the last few years. And then they've added methods for helping the two OSes to hand off work between each other or pass files back and forth more easily, allowing users to work on whichever system they feel best fits the task they're working on.

If Apple wanted to unify their devices on one OS in the very near future, Yosemite is pretty much the exact opposite of the OS you'd release.

Re:"Perfectly timed"?

[Coryoth]

Seems to me that Apple is playing catch-up in the phablet arena. Apple was late to the party and lost the toehold because of its tardiness.

No, no, you're looking at this all wrong. Apple stayed out of the Phablet market until they were "cool/hip/trendy". The vast sales Samsung had were merely to unimportant people. Apple, on the other hand, entered the market exactly when phablets became cool, because, by definition, phablets became cool only once Apple had entered the market.

Re:"Perfectly timed"?

[Anonymous Coward]

For years every new iPhone has been the best selling high-end phone in the world. What is this "toehold" they lost?

Slashdot Posts Unsubstantiated Rumors Now?

[Anonymous Coward]

How cute.

Perfectly-timed?

[Anonymous Coward]

How about you explain in what way the device was eclipsed? If we're talking about sales, you're already wrong.

come on people

[Anonymous Coward]

This is just Microsoft propaganda machine trying to *steal* some thunder from the Cool Guys(TM).
The Surface Pro (they even mention version 3!) concept is DOA. Period.

The Surface Pro is an awesome machine

[SensitiveMale]

You can buy a surface pro 1st gen with 128GB memory for @ $300 now. While the interface isn't perfect, it comes in really handy having a tablet that is a real PC with real PC speeds & not some atom CPU speed.

Re:The Surface Pro is an awesome machine

[Anonymous Coward]

I thought we had moved past referring to storage as memory...

Re:The Surface Pro is an awesome machine

[Anonymous Coward]

...and *I* thought we've moved past the age where anyone familiar enough with the Internet to post comments would know the @ symbol isn't a replacement for "a-round" but here we are, friend. ;-)

Re:The Surface Pro is an awesome machine

[SensitiveMale]

flash memory ass

Re:The Surface Pro is an awesome machine

[Anonymous Coward]

Just a personal pet peeve. On a more relevant note it would be nice to see more ram in systems with this form factor. I got a samsung series 7 when it came out primarily because it had 4gb of ram. Later I got a lenovo helix for its 8gb of ram and battery in the keyboard dock. Last I checked the Intel core series supports up to 32gb, I would love to see a a system like these offer the maximum in addition to a battery that could be easily swapped out.

In the Church of Jobs...

[Anonymous Coward]

http://quoteinvestigator.com/2013/03/06/artists-steal/

captcha: prosper

Re: In the Church of Jobs...

[Anonymous Coward]

For the love of FSM, somebody mod the parent informative. The "good artists copy, great artists steal" quote-that-never-was has been mangled and mis-attributed for possibly more than a century.

Perfectly-timed?

[slashdice]

The only difference between samsung and every other android manufacturer is the advertising/carrier kickback budget. Samsung can't compete on the low end because it destroys their profit margins. Meanwhile, the low end android manufacturers are quickly becoming mid/high end android manufacturers because that's where the money is at. It's the same story as IBM PC industry, except it took 10 years instead of 30.

Good artists copy, great artists steal -Steve Jobs

[xbytor]

Steve Jobs may have been many things, but Pablo Picasso is not one of them.

No desktop applications in tablet mode = fail.

[Mr_Wisenheimer]

I suspect if they are going to copy Microsoft, they will copy Window's 8's ability to switch between the "fat fingers" interface and desktop on the fly.

It's also possible they could put in an ARM chip to give you the option of booting to iOS and saving power, but I find that a bit wasteful and far-fetched.

They a 27 inch one to replace the iMac

[fustakrakich]

Call it the iiPad

Re:They a 27 inch one to replace the iMac

[Anonymous Coward]

They aaaaa... what?

OR

[Anonymous Coward]

You could just use a MacBook Air.

My suggestion for Apple

[GoodNewsJimDotCom]

Standardize your joystick API so us devs can make joystick games on ipad/iPhone. Joystick games on Android tablets is just taking off now, and might be a small portion of the market, but the people who do it like it. Anyone can see a touch screen is no way to play a reflex action game, the controls just aren't there.

Re:My suggestion for Apple

[tepples]

Standardize your joystick API so us devs can make joystick games on ipad/iPhone.

Apple introduced the MFi joystick API a year ago in iOS 7.

Anyone can see a touch screen is no way to play a reflex action game, the controls just aren't there.

PlayStation Vita's built-in joystick is part of why video game developers are joining the PlayStation Mobile (formerly PlayStation Suite) developer program.

Cloning a failure would be a failure....

[CraigCruden]

Cloning something a failure like Surface seems silly, if you're going to clone something clone something that is a success in the marketplace. If I want a table, I will buy an iPad - it works nicely as a consumption device. If I want to do a little more work, I will buy a Macbook Air. I don't really need a touch screen, in fact I find it a little annoying having fingerprints all over the screen. I also tend to sit back when using the computer and having to lean forward to touch the screen is actually more effort than just using my mouse. Call me old fashioned.... but I don't find it an improvement in usability when it comes to working on a computer. It works nicely when you are using an iPad and reading a book or watching a video.... Two different user interfaces in one machine is not useful to most.

Re:Cloning a failure would be a failure....

[Anonymous Coward]

Considering current iterations of the surface pro are selling extremely well what is your basis for calling it a failure?

Re:Cloning a failure would be a failure....

[Anonymous Coward]

It isn't an apple iPooed device, therefore it's a failure.

Re:Cloning a failure would be a failure....

[CraigCruden]

$1.7 Billion Dollar loss. Surface (even subsidized) is still not selling well, they have managed to get a few countries to stock-out on introduction by keeping the supply very low. Probably a good thing because if they supplied more the loss would be greater :o That is what I call a failure. Expect Microsoft to exit the "Surface" hardware market soon.

Re:Cloning a failure would be a failure....

[Anonymous Coward]

If I want a table, I will buy an iPad

Don't you mean an original Surface?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2EuXTR4m5A

You can hate Windows 8 all you want...

[bazorg]

People can hate Windows 8 all they want, but the signs are clear: Microsoft wants a unified platform for mobile and desktop apps, because at some point Google will get Android apps to run on Chrome OS and Apple will get iOS apps running on OS X machines
A mainstream machine that merges the tablet with the laptop market will make it clear to those who have been distracted that tablets are the main PC for millions of people. I think that Surface Pro is more of a proof of concept while the the MacBook Air or the supposed 12" iPad can be that machine.

The touchscreen will be secondary, what will define the PC market will be app stores. One fine morning we'll look at the PC market and realise that 30% of machines are running Google Play apps, 30% are running Windows Stores and 30% are running iTunes apps.

Re:You can hate Windows 8 all you want...

[Anonymous Coward]

Wanting and actually making it happen so that endusers embrace it, well, Microsoft has already failed.

Uhh...I doubt it

[real gumby]

These are the same analysts who said that apple needed to make a netbook or they would die (or who each quarter predicted a netbook was coming).

Apple has placed an alternative bet: that the devices can overlap capabilites and responsibilites (e.g. via handoff, or less intensely as with iwork) but have fundamentally different jobs to do, and try to make each do its job well. I don't commute to work in a tank, but some people find tanks useful. The surface, and W8, are neiher tank nor motorbike, and really do neither job well.

Apple changes their mind (and never admits it, as with phablets!) and they also make brain damaged decisions, but there is some method to their madness. Analysts generate quotable sound bites; that is the method behind their madness.

Re:Uhh...I doubt it

[radarskiy]

The basic idea is
1) make up some product rumor
2) repeat it every year
3) ???

At least the underpants gnomes had an objective.

Cloning a failure would be a failure....

[Anonymous Coward]

The tablet PC was a failure before IPAD.

Because it all seems to be 'flowing' the wrong way

[goldcd]

I have a desktop and a laptop or two running Windows. I have for decades. These are 'my machines'
I've ploughed through the odd iOS and quite a few Android devices for phones and tablets as well. Once you've hacked the life out of them, you can actually get stuff working that previously you could only do on my 'real machines'
Over the generations, what I could do has increased - I loved it. Then I saw the Surface2. It just sort of snuck up on me. Scales from my eyes and all that, but it can do whatever any other tablet I have could do, what I wanted my next tablet to do, and - well basically I'm not sure what advantage any tablet of today or the near future could offer me, that this couldn't.

Type and touch?

[Alomex]

I'm on my second touchscreen computer and fifth tablet. I do not like touch screen for a laptop/desktop. For a smartphone I can think of no better way than a touchscreen given the lack of input device. For a portable TV otherwise known as iPad a touchscreen is about the same as a dial on the side. For a Microsoft surface or a laptop with touch screen removing your fingers off the keyboard to touch the screen is cumbersome. I also found myself rarely detaching the keyboard.

Re:Type and touch?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not a problem, the operating system will do it for you. On my Surface, sometimes the device will refuse to put up the onscreen keyboard or just ignore the attached keyboard. Even better, the device will sometimes stop accepting input from either the onscreen or attached keyboard -- in mid-sentence. Attaching, detaching the keyboard sometimes corrects it. Other times attaching it to the charger and forcing a reboot is about all you can do. So if Apple were to make their version, hopefully they will not clone the maddening inconsistencies.

Re: Type and touch?

[Jeremy Erwin]

For a portable TV otherwise known as iPad a touchscreen is about the same as a dial on the side.

Funny, that. I rarely use my ipad for video. Sometimes I stream videos to my AppleTV using my ipad, but most of what I do on my ipad is web consumption--just the standard mix of text and graphics, mind you not web video. aside from that, there's kindle, and reading pdfs.
But of course, I may well be an outlier.

A large screen ipad might be good for drawing, provided that the stylus can be accurate enough-- drawing on my ipad feels like I'm in kindergarten, fingerpainting. Then again, I'm not the artistic type.

Re:Good artists copy, great artists steal -Steve J

[donour]

my thoughts exactly.

Re:Good artists copy, great artists steal -Steve J

[Anonymous Coward]

What does that have to do with GOOD artists?

Re:Seriously?

[Applehu Akbar]

Can we see your bestselling Gnu tablet?

Could, would, should... you be any more vague?

[Opportunist]

I think MS would complain if I called that vaporware, because even they didn't steep that low. This ain't even a "we kinda sorta think we might one day" announcement. It's some leaked (yeah, right) rumors about what some tech giant could be thinking about making.

How the fuck is this relevant in ANY way?

it is perfectly timed

[SuperKendall]

The market starting using more and more large but mediocre phones, just as demand is really starting to grow Apple introduces a model that doesn't sacrifice performance or battery life to have a larger device.

By waiting Apple also gave device makers a lot of rope to hang themselves with in going to screens with absurd DPI. Now the poor bastards (Note4, etc) are hamstrung changing and powering so many wasted pixels, and the companies cannot back off the resolution they have chained around their own necks.

Apple as usual simply makes a good idea work better than anyone else.

Re:it is perfectly timed

[gweilo8888]

Nope, they're just plain late to the party and feature-crippled to boot.

My name-brand phone that I've had for ages -- and had Apple users asking me what it was, then telling me they were going to switch to Android -- has the exact same resolution as the iPhone 6 Plus. The screen is only 10% smaller than that on the iPhone by surface area, yet the phone itself is 13% smaller by frontal area. And my phone is equal or superior to the iPhone 6 Plus in every way.

My phone looks better, it fits a pocket better, it weighs less, it's waterproof, it has a better rear camera, it shoots 4K video, it has a better front camera, it has triple the memory, it has external storage, it has an FM radio, it lasts twice as long on standby, it gets a quarter more battery life in real-world use (per Phone Arena real-world testing) and shortly to be even longer once it gets Lollipop, it supports far more connectivity standards (and supports them properly -- no disabled NFC here), it doesn't live in a walled garden, and it costs barely half what the iPhone 6 Plus does unlocked.

Literally the only feature from the iPhone 6 Plus that I can find which my phone lacks is the fingerprint sensor, which I wouldn't actually want. My phone will soon unlock itself simply when its near me, by dint of my smartwatch being near it. I won't have to fiddle with fingerprints, the phone will already be unlocked when I switch it on, but locked if somebody steals it.

Oh, and my smart watch is here now, not some vague date in the future, and it looks infinitely better to boot. It looks like a real, grownup watch, not a child's toy, and does things that are useful without trying to shoehorn in a bunch of junk nobody is ever going to want to do as Apple has done. (Yes, people will use their phone to see their next direction when navigating; no they won't try and view / pan / zoom a map on a tiny little screen when they've got a proper screen right in their pocket. And that's just one example.)

Apple are late to the party once again, just as they almost always have been throughout their history. Only with the first-gen iPhone and iPad did they truly show up on time, and yet the Apple faithful ignore their perpetual failings and fawn over them nonetheless, without one iota of critical thinking or *real* comparison to the competition.

Re:it is perfectly timed

[SuperKendall]

My name-brand phone that I've had for ages -- and had Apple users asking me what it was, then telling me they were going to switch to Android -- has the exact same resolution as the iPhone 6 Plus.

And it's performance in every way is significantly less. When they had the smaller res, they lacked the CPU/GPU the modern Apple hardware has now. The modern Android hardware has the better GPU/CPU but the screen res is killing performance. Apple let them dance right over the sweet spot.

My phone looks better, it fits a pocket better, it weighs less, it's waterproof,

So it's smaller? Behind them times already I guess. Otherwise the six is pocketable for anyone.

Waterproof is something I use a case for if I need. I use the phone in the rain briefly without issue as I always have.

Your phone basically sounds like a fish-mash of things not important to anyone anymore (FM radio....)

Literally the only feature from the iPhone 6 Plus that I can find which my phone lacks is the fingerprint sensor,

Which actually works and opens a whole world you'll be left behind with as you listen to... FM radio.

no disabled NFC here

Fully operational and utterly useless.

Oh, and my smart watch is here now, not some vague date in the future

I wouldn't want what you have now either, but at least it probably also supports FM radio!

Apple are late to the party once again,

They are never late, they arrive when they feel they have something worth selling. I as a buyer appreciate not having to tolerate half-baked crap any longer, that was fine when I'm young but like Danny Glover I'm too old for that shit. Including FM radio.

Re:it is perfectly timed

[gweilo8888]

And it's performance in every way is significantly less. When they had the smaller res, they lacked the CPU/GPU the modern Apple hardware has now. The modern Android hardware has the better GPU/CPU but the screen res is killing performance. Apple let them dance right over the sweet spot.

You fail at reading comprehension. My wife is required to have an iPhone by her company, sadly. I have compared it side by side, and despite the higher resolution, my phone is as fast or faster than hers. Also, Apple hasn't "let them dance right over the sweet spot" -- their latest phone has the exact same resolution as mine. Apple has showed up late to the party, as I said.

So it's smaller? Behind them times already I guess. Otherwise the six is pocketable for anyone.

The 6 is significantly smaller. The 6 Plus is significantly bigger. My phone hits the sweet spot; the 6 Plus is far too big, and would stick out of all my pockets by a good half-inch unless shoe-horned in diagonally (and uncomfortably.) The 6 is too small and low-res.

Waterproof is something I use a case for if I need. I use the phone in the rain briefly without issue as I always have.

So you make your phone even bigger and heavier, while mine shoots photos underwater just fine right out of the box. Yeah, you're right. Apple's approach of not offering features its customers need is much better.

Your phone basically sounds like a fish-mash of things not important to anyone anymore (FM radio....)

Well done cherry-picking the *only* technology my phone has which is old tech, while ignoring all of the brand-new tech that your phone lacks (and has lacked for years, in the case of things like NFC, while *every* other manufacturer has long offered it and made great use of it.)

Which actually works and opens a whole world you'll be left behind with as you listen to... FM radio.

Well done ignoring the fact that I don't need a fingerprint sensor because my phone will be unlocked whenever it is near me, but lock as soon as it is stolen. In other words, while you're fumbling to reach a poorly-positioned fingerprint sensor that requires both hands to use and was already exploited within days of its introduction, I'll be listening to... FM radio, which as of 2012, 93% of Americans said they still did on at least a weekly basis.

Fully operational and utterly useless.

So you think Apple just added utterly useless tech? You must be so proud of them. You're also flat-out wrong: NFC in the iPhone 6 series has been confirmed to be crippled, locked down to work only with Apple Pay and not with any of the many other functions which users on Android use it for on a daily basis.

I wouldn't want what you have now either, but at least it probably also supports FM radio!

Nope, no FM radio on the watch. Unlike Apple, Google didn't try to shoehorn a bunch of pointless crap onto a tiny screen and an absolutely awful user interface for a bound-to-disappoint user experience. My watch does just enough, and does it quickly and reliably, saving me taking my phone out of my pocket dozens of times a day while monitoring my health and controlling the functions of my phone I'd actually want to control remotely. One day, you'll have your own bloated, awful equivalent of it, once Apple finally catches up.

They are never late, they arrive when they feel they have something worth selling. I as a buyer appreciate not having to tolerate half-baked crap any longer, that was fine when I'm young but like Danny Glover I'm too old for that shit. Including FM radio.

You have tunnel vision, grandpa. You're also in a small and shrinking subspecies. Even my long-time Apple zealot friends -- one of whom has exclusively used Apple products for ~30+ years and for many years ran an Apple-only retailer he founded himself -- are complaining that Apple has lost its way, lost its relevance, is churning out buggy and unreliable me-too products, and no longer satisfies them. And that really says it all.

Re:

[Anonymous Coward]

like how Samsung came out with a fingerprint sensor after apple's introduction

You mean after Apple copied Motorola's fingerprint sensor on the Atrix Android phone.

Pace of innovation

[sjbe]

Apple hasn't really innovated much since Steve left the scene.

I see this a lot and I'm not convinced, especially since the guy has only been in the ground for around 3 years. How much does Apple have to do for you to change you mind? Where is the boundary between what you consider innovative and not. What is your evidence that their pace of innovation has slowed? I'm not saying you are right or wrong but you stated it as if it is axiomatic and I don't think I agree. I don't see any other companies really innovating meaningfully faster when you are talking time scales of 5-15 years which is what matters here.

Apple has historically introduced one or two big products per decade. The original Apple Computers came out in the late 1970s. The Macintosh was created in 1984. The iPod in 2001. The iPhone in 2007 and the iPad in 2010 which are really the same device in different form factors. Other products of note were the Apple LaserWriter (first desktop laser printer - Apple dropped the ball on that one) in 1985 and the Newton MessagePad in 1994. (The Apple Watch is too new to decide if it is noteworthy or not) Apple's most grim time financially was during the 1990s when their big bet (the MessagePad) was a flop and they mismanaged the Macintosh. I think people might be confused about their pace of innovation late in Steve Jobs life because they mistakenly consider the iPhone and iPad to be different devices when they really aren't. In fact the iPhone came out to the development for the iPad. They are the same device really.

Companies like Samsung and HTC and others are trying a lot of stuff and most of it is crap but some is good and works. Apple works really hard on a few things and doesn't release as much but their batting average is much better. Neither approach is right or wrong but you have to look at it on a time scale of more than 2-3 years to get a sense of pace of innovation. Realistically we should be having this discussion about 5-7 years in the future.

Product ideas that can move markets the way the Mac and the iDevices have are REALLY hard to come up with. I see some companies like Samsung throwing a lot of stuff out there but most of it is quite unremarkable. I think expectations that Apple would introduce some big market moving product the minute Steve Jobs died is pretty unrealistic. It may turn out that without Jobs the company will founder - they did once before. But we really should wait a few years to see if they really can or cannot come up with their next big success. I think their ApplePay service *might* turn out to be a really big deal but that remains to be seen. I think it is the most interesting new product they've done since the iPad and it certainly could be the most lucrative.

Re:Pace of innovation

[David_Hart]

Apple hasn't really innovated much since Steve left the scene.

Other products of note were the Apple LaserWriter (first desktop laser printer - Apple dropped the ball on that one) in 1985

Wrong... HP developed the first desktop laser printer in 1983. "The first laser printer intended for mass-market sales was the HP LaserJet, released in 1984" So, no, Apple didn't drop the ball on the LaserWriter. HP was already in the market and other manufacturers released products around the same time as Apple.

Re:Pace of innovation

[AmiMoJo]

Jobs used to do yearly hardware updates of iDevices with at least one big new feature. Retina displays, Siri, that sort of thing. Apple seems to have stopped doing that now, unless maybe you count the rather underwhelming fingerprint scanner.

NFC and health apps are a good example of what they do now. Features that have been around for a few years, playing catch-up. In fact NFC is kind of a joke because you can only use it for payment, meaning a clunky Bluetooth interface is the only way to transfer small amounts of data between devices and you can't use NFC tags. It's a far cry from the glory days.

Re:Pace of innovation

[sjbe]

Jobs used to do yearly hardware updates of iDevices with at least one big new feature. Retina displays, Siri, that sort of thing. Apple seems to have stopped doing that now, unless maybe you count the rather underwhelming fingerprint scanner.

Technology released since Steve Jobs died include but isn't limited to: ApplePay, Lighting cables, the iPad Mini, Touch ID (which is NOT underwhelming), larger screens, IOS7 and IOS8, Mavericks, Yosemite, AppleWatch, Healthkit, Homekit, Continuity, 2nd Gen Mac Pro, iCloud, 64 bit Aseries processors, iTunes Match, Family Sharing, and probably more I'm not thinking of off the top of my head. Plus of course various and numerous incremental improvements to their existing product lines.

Now some of these were in development while Steve was still alive but pretending that Apple hasn't done anything since he died is willfully ignoring the facts. Is it enough? Time will tell. But the notion that Apple stopped innovating the moment they threw the first shovel of dirt on Steve Jobs is absurd.

NFC and health apps are a good example of what they do now. Features that have been around for a few years, playing catch-up. I

And yet NFC is barely used and health apps remain poorly integrated with existing technology. I haven't yet seen a single person use a phone for NFC payments in person. I know some do here and there but it's hardly commonplace. Same with phone based health apps that aren't on iPhones. Some people use Fitbits etc but they don't integrate well and the ones that do integrate don't do so any better to Android than to iOS. Health monitoring devices and apps are in their infancy and NOBODY has really cracked that market - not Apple or anyone else.

In fact NFC is kind of a joke because you can only use it for payment, meaning a clunky Bluetooth interface is the only way to transfer small amounts of data between devices and you can't use NFC tags.

I have no idea what you are talking about here. NFC has nothing to do with Bluetooth and is used for different purposes. Saying NFC is only used for payments is hardly damning. That is a huge deal. The company that cracks contactless payments with smartphones is very likely to rake in a ton of money. Apple's new ApplePay service has as good a shot at it as anything I've seen. We'll see if it pans out in due time of course.

Re:Pace of innovation

[AmiMoJo]

Okay, let's actually look at that list shall we?

ApplePay - Google Wallet has been working for years
Lightning Cables - inferior to USB (e.g. no 1080p video), the only novelty being that they are reversible
iPad Mini - copy of all the other small tablets
Touch ID - okay, laptops had this for years but it was new on phones
Lager screens - copy of every other popular phone
iOS7/8 - wow, they keep developing software, no one else does that. Also, iOS7 wasn't exactly a design tour-de-force.
AppleWatch - smart watches are hardly new, and it isn't even out yet, and the interface looks unwieldy and crap
Healthkit - everyone else has been doing this for years, and doing it better with NFC (e.g. Omron products). Even Apple promoted the iPhone 5 as having a CPU with features to support low power health monitoring.
Homekit - copied all the other smart thermostats and energy monitors
iCloud - lol, really? Hardly new and woefully insecure.
64 bit - okay, first on a phone, but even so the iPhone 5S wasn't actually any faster than a Nexus 5 costing about 1/3rd as much and it only had 1GB of RAM, so hardly a massive achievement
Family Sharing - everyone has been doing that for years

Re:Seriously?

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh they make perfectly good doorstops. You just have to install the right drivers and recompile everything first.

OSX Slate S

[BitZtream]

Okay, so I don't know what they'd name it, but I would kill for a Surface Pro style device running OSX with a thunderbolt port on it.

Two separate modes of operation, iOS like modes for when I'm in tablet mode, OSX like mode when I'm attached to a real keyboard, pointing device and display.

I'd kill twice if they packed it into something the size of the iPhone6 or 6s.

I would easily pay $4k or more, probably even 5k if they could some how cram 8-16G of ram, 512GB of flash, a haswell chip for docked mode, an ARM for mobile mode into something the size of a iPhone 6s if it had a thunderbolt port and could fully mutate between the two modes, hell, it wouldn't need to share apps, just storage space so that native apps for each mode could access the same data.

I've been wanting this for several years and we're rapidly approaching the point of being able to do a full on developers level of CPU power/ram in a phone sized device. I'm seriously considering a surface pro for this reason but its just not quite there yet, its damned close. If Apple took the same hardware and released it with OSX, I'd buy it and accept the early adopter penalty of having to replace it in 2 years when they get it done right.

I don't want a macbook air, I want a surface pro running OSX in desktop mode, iOS in mobile mode and nothing more than a thunderbolt port for docking.

Apple, please take my freaking money and give me this.

Re:Clone?

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple didn't have the first tablet. Microsoft has been trying for decades. There was a Windows XP for Tablets edition and the hardware predated that. The idea of a computer in a paper format has been around since the start of the PC. Apple was the first company to get tablets noticed by general consumers, but tablets were used by a lot of students, doctors, military, and other professionals that did computing while moving around far before any iDevice.

The Surface Pro was an incremental step from the many different types of convertable laptops.

The premise is idiotic.

[jcr]

Microsoft's "Surface" is just the latest round of their "tablet PC" debacle, which had been a continuous failure for over a decade before the iPad was introduced. iPad succeeded because Apple didn't try to shoehorn a desktop OS into a device where it clearly didn't fit.

To suggest that Apple should abandon a successful approach for a failed approach demonstrates that the author should find a different line of work, he's obviously out of his depth writing about the computer industry.

-jcr

Re:The premise is idiotic.

[Anonymous Coward]

Must be a rumor started by MS fans to validate their purchase

Re:Clone?

[gnupun]

Apple didn't have the first tablet. Microsoft has been trying for decades

Those pre-ipad tablets with their styluses are about as ancient as an apple newton. That's not a fair comparison.

Apple was the first company to get tablets noticed by general consumers,

That's because it had a great design, unlike its predecessors.

The Surface Pro was an incremental step from the many different types of convertable laptops.

Wrong. The surface pro is MS playing its usual game of cloning a market leader (embrace), in this case the iPad, and adding features to it (extend), i.e. a keyboard.

Re:Clone?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd rather have a stylus with a resistive screen than some inaccurate capacitive piece of shit. Microsoft got Surface right by including an active digitiser.

It was voice mail

[tepples]

2005 called...

Oh my God! Did you warn them? About Beta?

It's not like I can practically mention every single disaster over the past couple decades on my voice mail's greeting.

Impractical in moving vehicle

[tepples]

If the device is motionless, use a desktop/laptop UI. If the device is in motion, use the mobile UI.

I don't want it snapping back and forth between UI modalities as the bus speeds up and slows down.

Re:Clone?

[ganjadude]

How is a tablet, with a touch screen, and optional attachable keyboard in anyway a copy of a thin forn factor, non touch screen laptop?? I mean in what world are these things remotely the same??? And I hate you even more for making me defend microsoft.

metro

[goombah99]

I hear the 12" is code named Metrocity,

Re:

[KingOfBLASH]

IIRC back around 2000 there were some laptops (was it IBM?) released with fingerprint sensors for security, and you could use biometric authentication in windows.

So really what you mean is Samsung copied Apple who copied Motorola who copied ?IBM?

Technology is a pyramid. You only get to a higher point by building on the stuff before you.

Truly original ideas are few and far between and in most cases you have incremental improvements. And, in the cases of original ideas, you have improvements on the original ideas!

Surface Pro meet iPad Max? or Maxipad?

[raymorris]

I always thought the biggest iPad, should be called something like the iPad Max, or if that's too cliche, the Maxipad.

Re:Surface Pro meet iPad Max? or Maxipad?

[Anonymous Coward]

Finally! A name for an Apple product that reflects it's use.

I.e., A product that only weird people flaut, made by a company whose business model is predicated on selling you disposable items for prices that are totally divorced from their real value.

Re:Clone?

[Anonymous Coward]

Did you every use a surface pro, its not an ipad clone. It completely replaced my W500 ThinkPad within a week, the waycom pen makes accurate clicking in desktop software simple, the hardware keyboard is great and the touch keyboard is good enough for short work (messaging, logins etc.) I use it regularly for browsing, editing photos, editing video, editing audio and editing software, all of those tasks are just as comfortable to do on the surface as they are on a desktop pc.

Surface pro clone, really?

[Anonymous Coward]

To me this all sounds more like an Asus transformer clone to begin with

Macbook Air with touch?

[ponos]

Why not just add touch to the 11" macbook and be done with it? Not that I like touch, most of the time it's a horrible idea, but it would tick most of the right boxes: size, keyboard, touch, battery life etc...

Thief

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually it was Picasso who used to say that. Steve Jobs stole it.

Re:Seriously?

[um... Lucas]

Oh, how i wish i had mod points for you, Mr. Anonymous Coward....:)

Re: Clone?

[leedsj]

Apple have good form cannibalising their existing product set (see iPhone consumption of the iPod market), although this was Jobs caring more about great product than the effect of that (its not clear whether Cook has the same level of chutzpah). Also, iPad sales have dropped off dramatically, so this looks more like something to shore them up / upgrade to.

Re: Clone?

[Anonymous Coward]

This x 1000000

Jobs quote

[Anonymous Coward]

itself stolen from Pablo Picasso.

Re:OSX Slate S

[Anonymous Coward]

Just buy a fucking Surface Pro then, dumbass. Has your Apple addled brain blind you to the fact that the Surface is a kickass piece of hardware?

How far has the Apple fallen?

[CHIT2ME]

First, Apple has tried (But failed IMHO) to copy Samsung's Galaxy line of smartphones. Now there is talk about trying to "clone" Microsoft's Surface Pro! I think it's about what I've said about Apple all these years. They really don't come up with new ideas, just copy and hype old ones that all the Apple fanboys slather and drewl over. The only thing Apple is good at is locking their customers into a walled garden and relieving them of their cash!!!

Re:Clone?

[exomondo]

The Surface Pro was an incremental step from the many different types of convertable laptops.

Wrong. The surface pro is MS playing its usual game of cloning a market leader (embrace), in this case the iPad, and adding features to it (extend), i.e. a keyboard.

How is it a "clone" of an iPad? Hardware and software-wise it's a laptop with a touchscreen, active digitizer and detachable keyboard. Yes the iPad also has a touchscreen, that hardly makes every other device with a touchscreen an "iPad clone".

Apple biggest mistake repeated

[rhyous]

Apple lost the PC market in the late 80s and early 90s to Microsoft because Microsoft focused on business features. Apple did not.

It seems no one at Apple understand business feature needs. For consumers, Apple is user friendly, but for business users, Apple is blind. For business, Microsoft is user friendly, for consumer, they are not blind but average. Apple wins hands down with many consumers but Microsoft wins business and wins the average when both business and consumers are combined.

There are about 1 billion laptops out there, 1/2 a billion for businesses. Most the business laptops will be upgrade in the next four years with a Surface Pro or similar device that is half-tablet half laptop. But unlike other products, this device will be completely business user friendly.

One a company buys their employee a Surface Pro and they use it for business and all their stuff is on it, what is going to happen to that iPad they used to use?

Not to be pedantic, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

"Good artists copy, great artists steal," was actually a Picasso and\or T.S. Elliot misquote that Jobs mentioned I believe only once in a much larger conversation in 1996 on the PBS program ÃoeTriumph of the Nerds: The Rise of Accidental EmpiresÃ, to wit:

"Ultimately it comes down to taste. It comes down to trying to expose yourself to the best things that humans have done and then try to bring those things in to what youÃ(TM)re doing. I mean Picasso had a saying he said good artists copy great artists steal. And we have always been shameless about stealing great ideas."

Googod knows I never liked the man, but if we're gonna quote, quote accurately.

Re:

[Anonymous Coward]

They all copy, but you use piss-poor examples:

"They conveniently forget about things like how Samsung came out with a fingerprint sensor after apple's introduction"

Motorola had a finger print reader before Apple, made by the same company that makes Apple's finger print reader, although an earlier version.

"like a half baked watch Samsung got out on rumours of the Apple Watch so they could be the first mover."

Never mind that other smart watches have been out for years. Again Motoactv (not intentionally picking Motorola examples) came out in 2011 and did a lot of the same stuff current smart watches are supposed to do.

The tech press is ridiculous to anyone that actually pays attention to tech. They pretend stuff is new that is old. Things don't exist until certain companies make them. I remember when I picked up a Droid of some vintage and said "navigate to XYZ" and the iPhone users next to me shit their pants. But somehow Apple invented voice integration. Its all iterative and building. In fact a lot of the "new" things now are more along the line of design decisions instead of real innovations.

MacBook Air

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm convinced the first place you're going to see it is the Macbook Air.

Of course, 15 years from now, they're going to replace the keyboard with a second screen, virtual keyboard and everyone's going to say they're copying the DS.

Re:Clone?

[beastofburdon]

Sorry dude, I absolutely hate Micro$oft, but the Surface Pro is a whole different beast from the iPad. If i had the spare money and I knew that I could get Linux running well on one I would have already gotten one. It is very nice hardware with a shitty OS. The iPad is half-assed hardware with a shitty OS.