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32 Cities Want To Challenge Big Telecom, Build Their Own Gigabit Networks

Jason Koebler writes: More than two dozen cities in 19 states announced today that they're sick of big telecom skipping them over for internet infrastructure upgrades and would like to build gigabit fiber networks themselves and help other cities follow their lead. The Next Century Cities coalition, which includes a couple cities that already have gigabit fiber internet for their residents, was devised to help communities who want to build their own broadband networks navigate logistical and legal challenges to doing so.

120 of 175 comments (clear)

  1. 'Bout time by MitchDev · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Fuck Comcast, Time Warner, and AT&T

    1. Re:'Bout time by fustakrakich · · Score: 2

      Don't blame them. Blame the people who take their money. You have a chance to vote them out very soon. Go for it...

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    2. Re:'Bout time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      that is the stupidest thing I have ever heard... people say that for everything...
      sure it may take care of the existing scum suckers, but their replacements always end up being enticed by the same big bags of cash as their predecessors...
      and We The People end up getting screwed yet again...
      there has got to be a better way...

    3. Re:'Bout time by Midnight+Thunder · · Score: 4, Insightful

      These cities should build the infrastructure, focus on the infrastructure and then allow service providers to compete with each other for service. Essentially, government deals with infrastructure since they are generally good with that and private business on the sevice, since they are generally good with that when there is healthy competition.

      --
      Jumpstart the tartan drive.
    4. Re:'Bout time by bobjr94 · · Score: 2

      That will work great for a few years, until hit a recession or slowdown in taxes and first thing they will do is jack up the rates.

    5. Re:'Bout time by chromaexcursion · · Score: 1

      Old news. 15 years ago Philadelphia was trying to build out public WiFi.
      Comcast, Time Warner, and AT&T had nothing to do with ensuring it failed.
      Verizon is far more evil than Comcast or Time Warner. They've been at it longer and are more entrenched and subtle. They're the phone company after all.

      Everyone loves to hate the cable company. The phone company is so good at fucking you over, most have no idea how badly they've been screwed.
      I'll take Comcast any day over Verizon. I caught Verizon padding my bill, it took far too much of my time to force them to drop a little over $100 in charges.
      The PUC investigator admitted he wished there was a way to more severely punish the phone company.

    6. Re:'Bout time by Idimmu+Xul · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I love it, private business has fucked you guys so bad that a social enterprise has cropped up to fix the problem. And the first thing you think of is to give that social enterprise back to the same businesses that just completely fucked you.

      --
      The problem with slashdot is that most of its users were bullied and stuffed into lockers as kids!
    7. Re:'Bout time by klui · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Irrelevant since these big private companies already do that.

    8. Re:'Bout time by __aanbvm4272 · · Score: 1

      I don't believe your point. Trying to say one monopoly is far worse than the other SURE LAME BRAIN. The more municipalities go this route the more the big guys will worry. Drop the rates so the rest of us won't favor a choice. Like you're suggesting will happen now, but it is NOT HAPPENING YET...

    9. Re:'Bout time by wickedsteve · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Republicans in the right pocket and Democrats in the left pocket. Third party candidates don't have a chance. Your vote doesn't count for shit. Until people start seriously voting for third parties the gov't is bought and paid for.

    10. Re:'Bout time by rtb61 · · Score: 1

      Private industries continual shift of the service goal posts. Originally government, booked to the hour, sometimes a little early or late and everyone complained. Private industry takes over, booked to within two hours, people complained louder. That soon changed booked morning or afternoon and people complained even louder. Then it went to booked for sometime on a day, a bit of the old, ' screw you', to the complainers and then spend up big on advertising saying how great service is, so much better than that nasty old government service.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    11. Re:'Bout time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I love it, private business has fucked you guys so bad that a social enterprise has cropped up to fix the problem. And the first thing you think of is to give that social enterprise back to the same businesses that just completely fucked you.

      What country are you in? The system he described is basically the one used in Australia and I'm pretty sure several parts of Europe.

      You have a wholesaler who is either government owned or is a government regulated monopoly with legislated fixed prices which sells access to ISPs who use the infrastructure to provide competing services; the competition keeps prices low, stops them from fucking with the service (fast lane bullshit) and provides a variety of 'value-adds' to choose from without having to go and legislate regulations for every little thing because the bastards are too big to escape from (Comcast/Warner).

    12. Re:'Bout time by king+neckbeard · · Score: 1

      I don't think most people really even differentiate between phone and cable companies, seeing them instead of two sides of the same coin, and both are hated beyond measure.

      --
      This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
    13. Re:'Bout time by MikeHammett · · Score: 1

      Cheers on that second part. All I would change is instead of breaking up the monopoly is to just start up up new ones.

    14. Re:'Bout time by blackpaw · · Score: 1

      No, the telcoms infrastructure is privately owned in Australia, mainly telstra, with crap HFC from Optus. I'd like to saw we have 3rd world broadband with 1st world pricing, but in reality a lot of third world countries have much better broadband and our picing is some of the most expensive in the world.

      You might be thinking of our energy grid, which in most states is publically owned, with private companies reselling it. Thats been a resounduing success with record profits for the shareholders and power bills increasing by 200% in several years.

      Tasmania is notable in that it is the only state where power bills have gone down, after it started depriviastising its power generation.

    15. Re:'Bout time by budgenator · · Score: 1

      There really are valid reasons not to vote, first getting registered to vote is a matter of public record, so every whacko can get your address, not good for people who have been stalked, testified in some trials or are controversial public figures.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    16. Re:'Bout time by fulldecent · · Score: 1

      +5 "User mentions Public Utility Commission when posting grievances about local utility"

      It's a new option for mods

      --

      -- I was raised on the command line, bitch

    17. Re:'Bout time by sumdumass · · Score: 2

      The problem is that third parties do not represent the majority of the country and likely a minority of any given area.

      I used to think the problem with third parties was that they do not run for local offices and only focus on national offices unlesd it is a plant designed to siphon votes from a particular canditate in order to let a less desirable one get elected. But after looking around a bit, i have concluded that the honest reality is that third parties simply do not have much support. I tend to disagree with less on issues from a candidate with a big party than i disagree with on with the closest counter part third party. Many people feel the same at least on a local level and a third party is a waste on the national level because they will have to either caucus with a big party or fight both of them and end up being ignored.

      Third parties simply are not big tent parties and are likely better off running as one of the big parties through the primary process. An example of this is the tea parties (yes, there are more than one).

      Now if you disagree, before replying, think about how the tea party republicans have been treated and explain how any third party trying to do something without even partial support of a big party would do any better.

    18. Re:'Bout time by macromorgan · · Score: 1

      The "chance" to make a difference has long since past. The general election is just a formality. If you want to have a true impact on who gets elected and what kind of platform they run on, you need to vote in the PRIMARIES. Since so few people do, we end up with these mostly-unelectable assholes who manage to get elected anyway. What we need (in addition to stronger 3rd parties) are more participation in the primaries.

    19. Re:'Bout time by macromorgan · · Score: 1

      Don't forget the FCC. Time Warner got their act together very quickly once I complained to the FCC about their cable card fuckery. We'll see if the FCC gets Verizon Wireless into shape for their violations of the C Block auction rules I just complained about.

    20. Re:'Bout time by Atzanteol · · Score: 1

      The problem is that third parties do not represent the majority of the country and likely a minority of any given area.

      That's not the problem. Neither do the other two parties and they do fine.

      I used to think the problem with third parties was that they do not run for local offices and only focus on national offices unlesd it is a plant designed to siphon votes from a particular canditate in order to let a less desirable one get elected. But after looking around a bit, i have concluded that the honest reality is that third parties simply do not have much support. I tend to disagree with less on issues from a candidate with a big party than i disagree with on with the closest counter part third party. Many people feel the same at least on a local level and a third party is a waste on the national level because they will have to either caucus with a big party or fight both of them and end up being ignored.

      Third parties simply are not big tent parties and are likely better off running as one of the big parties through the primary process. An example of this is the tea parties (yes, there are more than one).

      Now if you disagree, before replying, think about how the tea party republicans have been treated and explain how any third party trying to do something without even partial support of a big party would do any better.

      The problem is that you're (and the rest of us) voting for the two candidates that the "Lesters" have picked for us to vote on. The game is rigged.

      --
      "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge"

      - Charles Darwin
    21. Re:'Bout time by Atzanteol · · Score: 1

      Old news. 15 years ago Philadelphia was trying to build out public WiFi.

      Comcast, Time Warner, and AT&T had nothing to do with ensuring it failed.

      Verizon is far more evil than Comcast or Time Warner. They've been at it longer and are more entrenched and subtle. They're the phone company after all.

      "We don't care, we don't have to. We're The Phone Company."

      --
      "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge"

      - Charles Darwin
    22. Re:'Bout time by Atzanteol · · Score: 2

      The answer to extremism is rarely extremism in the opposite direction.

      --
      "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge"

      - Charles Darwin
    23. Re:'Bout time by gfxguy · · Score: 1

      Well... while I'm not one for hate and vitriol like most of the politically oriented people out there (it seems), I sit back and watch and: 1) I agree with the other response that neither of the two major parties actually represent a majority of anybody but politicians and businesses, and 2) I thought the tea party was an interesting idea until they became right wing on steroids. I thought they were interesting until they started campaigning against abortion, and inviting people like Sarah Pailin to speak at events. Again... I don't run out and start hating on either abortion or anti-abortion activists, I know they both have their opinions and beliefs, but I think it should largely stay out of politics at this point, and it's not going to change any time soon - both parties use it to rile up their bases, though.

      So no hate against the Tea Party, but they are hardly a big difference between them and republicans - more like republicans demanding what the party SAYS they represent as opposed to how republican candidates actually act when they get into office. The GOP just needs some house cleaning, IMO.

      People SAY they want freedom and liberty, but neither major party offers it. There's really only one out there that does (besides complete anarchists), and everybody thinks they're "crazy" because they want freedom and liberty, which, OMG, requires people to take back some responsibility for themselves.

      --
      Stupid sexy Flanders.
    24. Re:'Bout time by mrchaotica · · Score: 2

      Of course not. He's blaming the cheaters for rigging the game.

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    25. Re:'Bout time by towermac · · Score: 1

      Not true.

      There are Republicans and Democrats in the primaries that are not in pockets. Difficult for them to win though, as those pockets are where the majority of campaign funds are. Pretty much the same as you point out for third parties.

      Your chances of getting a good guy (or gal) elected, are better for one of the two real parties in the primaries, rather than a third party in the general election.

    26. Re:'Bout time by Shortguy881 · · Score: 1

      Private business? The cable industry is a government backed monopoly.

      --
      Brilliance without wisdom, power without conscience. Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants.
    27. Re:'Bout time by suutar · · Score: 2

      Not "give back", "allow access". I have no problem with the cable company offering their services. My problem is with nobody else being able to offer services because they can't afford to run a new set of wires. Imho, the times when the incumbent wire-owner has been required to allow other folks to supply services and charge reasonable rates (dial up ISPs and non-fastlaned broadband are the prime examples) were the heyday of the internet.

    28. Re:'Bout time by king+neckbeard · · Score: 1

      ISPs are for all practical purposes natural monopolies, so competition doesn't make sense. Also, why the hell does everyone bring up 'innovation' in regards to internet service? You don't need to innovate, just lay down infrastructure and upgrade from time to time. It's a task that requires no originality at all.

      --
      This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
    29. Re:'Bout time by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

      there has got to be a better way...

      First, you admit that you are screwing yourselves. Refusal to accept the role you are playing is the biggest impediment towards finding a "better way". And judging by the reaction (and the moderation), the condition seems to be very widespread, and by the way, well documented. Oh well, you got two weeks to put aside the petty bullshit and actually clean house, right down to the plaster and the floorboards. If you don't, blame yourselves,and only yourselves. Koch didn't force you to vote for his puppet.The choice is all yours.

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    30. Re:'Bout time by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      No need for the anti-capitalism rant.
      In general the parent is right. The governments generally are better for Infrastructure based jobs, Because an infrastructure benefits all people. Corporations when left to do infrastructure are not as good as it, because they need to be large enough to maintain a wide area, and having remote areas being far more expensive to maintain. Meaning less dense area get extremely expensive.
      The government getting funding via Taxes means everyone is a customer so everyone is paying for everyone internet access, allows for a more efficient use of funds.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    31. Re:'Bout time by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      "The problem is that third parties do not represent the majority of the country and likely a minority of any given area."

      That's not the problem. Neither do the other two parties and they do fine

      Actually, the two parties do represent the people and they do it quite well. They mostly do it on the local and state level. There are 108 republicans and 55 democrats in office in Ohio without even getting into the county and city data. The vast exposure most people have with the two parties is on the state and local level. They tend to be happy with them and those parties tend to act differently then on the national level (likely because their actions hit closer to home for the most part which makes them more answerable than federal candidates).

      The problem is that you're (and the rest of us) voting for the two candidates that the "Lesters" have picked for us to vote on. The game is rigged.

      No, the game is not rigged, it is a lot like playing risk but with 80 or more different boards at a time. You and Lessig seem to be looking at the large board and ignoring the others. They pick those for us because we have picked on all the other boards. If the third parties wanted to play, they could do the same if they got on the other boards and took some ground.

      There is more to this than federal offices. You will always feel the way you do if you ignore the rest.

    32. Re:'Bout time by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Well... while I'm not one for hate and vitriol like most of the politically oriented people out there (it seems), I sit back and watch and: 1) I agree with the other response that neither of the two major parties actually represent a majority of anybody but politicians and businesses,

      There are a lot more offices than the federal ones. When you start looking at the state and local ones, you see where they do actually represent the people. But the third parties seem to just grab a handful of attention here and there and not even enough representation to control a city council or county board. That's where the two big parties get their power and strength from despite the federal offices appearing to be out to lunch most of the time.

      2) I thought the tea party was an interesting idea until they became right wing on steroids. I thought they were interesting until they started campaigning against abortion, and inviting people like Sarah Pailin to speak at events. Again... I don't run out and start hating on either abortion or anti-abortion activists, I know they both have their opinions and beliefs, but I think it should largely stay out of politics at this point, and it's not going to change any time soon - both parties use it to rile up their bases, though.

      You do realize that there are several tea parties right? It's more of a movement than a single power/party even though there seems to be a dominent part of it. As with abortion, all I have heard them speak about is tax monies being used to fund them. If they have come out and said more, I haven't heard (which doesn't mean it hasn't happened). But the very nature of tax money or government funding of abortion is political due to the fact it is a political entity involved. I don't see how it can be kept out of politics unless no tax funding for abortion ever happens.

      So no hate against the Tea Party, but they are hardly a big difference between them and republicans - more like republicans demanding what the party SAYS they represent as opposed to how republican candidates actually act when they get into office. The GOP just needs some house cleaning, IMO.

      The vast majority of third parties are somewhat the same. There will be a few key issues they vehemently take stands on but the rest if either echoing democrat or republican positions as stated by the idealists if not in reality. But even if it is true as you say about the Tea (Taxed Enough Already)Party- it does not mean someone else cannot do the same and infiltrate one of the parties. That's the great thing about primaries. If you win, you stop the party from running a candidate against you in the election.

      People SAY they want freedom and liberty, but neither major party offers it. There's really only one out there that does (besides complete anarchists), and everybody thinks they're "crazy" because they want freedom and liberty, which, OMG, requires people to take back some responsibility for themselves.

      I agree somewhat. You cannot have complete freedom because people simply do not think about what they are doing and how it impacts others. Take the libertarian stance on drugs, it's fine and all as long as the user can support their own habit and not harm others. But as we know with history and addictive substances, sometimes they lose jobs, ruin families, resort to stealing, try to operate machinery (cars for instance) and kill others and so on. It's not like we haven't tried it before or anything. And before it was illegal, it wasn't exactly peachy king either.

      And yes, it is because as you suggest, people do not take responsibility for themselves.

    33. Re:'Bout time by Strangely+Familiar · · Score: 1

      I know the discussion is about dead, but I thought I'd mention my plan anyway. It is right on point to your comment. Read the executive summary, for example, or watch the intro. I'm trying to figure out a way to build grass roots support. http://i-party.us/

      --
      Join the IParty!
    34. Re:'Bout time by Strangely+Familiar · · Score: 1

      It sounds like you have given this some thought. I agree that the solution for "third parties" is to gain influence through the primary process. But the democrats don't have a tea party yet. I am trying to change that. I think a tea party for the democrats should be organized, and precautions need to be taken to keep it from becoming corrupt. Look for my Declaration of Independence to be out soon... http://i-party.us/

      --
      Join the IParty!
    35. Re:'Bout time by Midnight+Thunder · · Score: 1

      Private companies wouldn't be using it for free. They would need to lease out usage, but that wouldn't be an exclusive lease. When people were still using dial-up modems there was more competition, so this would be an attempt to recreate something that allows for this. Line sharing is really necessary for something healthy and focusing on innovation. BTW always jealous of France's http://free.fr/

      What we have now is broken, so it is time to come up with a model that will help foster competition.

      --
      Jumpstart the tartan drive.
    36. Re:'Bout time by macpacheco · · Score: 1

      Corruption is a two party process, those who give the money and those who receive. Both are equally guilty.
      Its called active (giving) and passive (receiving) corruption here in Brazil.
      Its naive to think you can solve corruption by only attacking one side.
      But yeah, for all of their democracy, its really sick to see how many americans vote Republican just because they sell that "I'm angry like you" motto. Brazilians are 10x worse, but we don't have a decent public education system. We're not a rich country.
      "Democracy sucks. But its way better than the alternative" Winston Churchil (not his exact words, I added to spice to his original saying).
      Those that complain that democracy is filthy, dirty should look at the alternative of countries that used to be democratic and that today are de facto dictatorships like Venezuela, Bolivia, with Argentina+Brazil somewhere in between.

  2. Boston by tompatman · · Score: 2

    Nice to see Boston on the list. I hope other cities join in when they see this.

    1. Re:Boston by peragrin · · Score: 4, Informative

      It gets better as sections of Boston get FIOS from Verizon. but for reasons known only to monopolies Verzion stopped rolling out new FIOS in Boston. I guess the market isn't big enough for them.

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    2. Re:Boston by tompatman · · Score: 2

      I live in Andover and have FIOS. For the most part it's a decent service, but it currently cost $65 a month for only a 15/15 Mbps connection. It's only going to go up from there. When I first signed up with them they had excellent customer service, but they get a little more like Comcast every year.

    3. Re:Boston by _xeno_ · · Score: 2

      I live in an apartment complex outside of Boston. FIOS is already wired down the street I live on. When I asked Verizon about FIOS, they told me that in order to offer it in my building, the building owners would have to pay to wire it and they'd have to get half the units in the building to sign up ahead of time.

      Needless to say, I'm still on Comcast.

      --
      You are in a maze of twisty little relative jumps, all alike.
    4. Re: Boston by Veritech_Ace · · Score: 1

      Don't hold your breath waiting for an alternative to Comcast, as they are most likely paying a fee to your building owner for the privilege of being the sole provider of service to your complex. A pittance for Comcast, and a no-brainer incentive to keep competitive build-outs at bay.

    5. Re:Boston by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I met the VP in charge of FIOS. I point blank asked him. It came from above his pay grade. The irony is he gets AT&T DSL at his house and they have no plans to expand uverse there.

      Until the current top CEO is gone FIOS is dead in the water. He came up thru the ranks of Verizon wireless and thinks charging people more for less service is a totally awesome idea. They are busy reneging on every deal they made with every municipality they promised to roll it out to. Your politicians (on both sides of the isle) are all well bought and paid for and there is not a thing you can do about it.

    6. Re:Boston by See+Attached · · Score: 3, Informative

      Verizon stopped in North Jersey too, despite promising to get broadband to the whole state in 1993 by 2010, and tacking on a surcharge to EVERY bill they send out. For some reason the jokers that run the show decided to let em off the hook : http://www.dslreports.com/show... This is just wrong.. These little monopolies are not justifiable.

      --
      Time for a new Political party in the US (or two!) One is off the rails Other cant pony up a leader.
    7. Re:Boston by See+Attached · · Score: 1

      Do you have a name? Putting a face on this might help.

      --
      Time for a new Political party in the US (or two!) One is off the rails Other cant pony up a leader.
    8. Re:Boston by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Verizon isn't seeing the return on capital for FIOS; that is well known. They think they can increase subscriber rates in areas they have covered and recover the capital that way.

      What they completely miss is the fact that the use-cases that will drive more valuable service plans only exist when ~gigabit networks are available everywhere.

      The problem I see with either approach is that business internet costs aren't going down fast enough to push that evolution. You get better speeds for less in a co-lo, but that doesn't help enough if you use a single office location.

    9. Re:Boston by Bengie · · Score: 2

      My ISP ran fiber to every house in the city, customer or not. Cheaper that way. Even customers that are several miles outside the city limits got fiber, all on the ISP's dime, no local, state, or federal government grants or loans. Verizon is just greedy.

    10. Re:Boston by Bengie · · Score: 1

      Verizon actually acknowledges that FIOS increase revenue and reduces costs. I'm guessing the problem is running fiber has a 2-3 year break even, which is too long for a public company worried about quarterly returns.

    11. Re:Boston by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 1

      Deploying in a market is more likely a 20-year payback, and incremental customers are a 2-year payback. The benefit to Verizon is in deprecating copper infrastructure, which has high maintenance costs due to age, but overlaying new fiber pathways on the existing copper pathways is expensive.

      They want to hit markets where they can have an incremental income from FIOS, and where the chances of competition are low. That means prioritizing affluent communities that have the wherewithal to create alternatives if the need isn't addressed.

    12. Re:Boston by Bengie · · Score: 1

      The average GPON rollout is 3-4 years for a small ISP that has a lot of overhead. The larger you get, the more efficient you get. Even Chattanooga EPB broke even at the 3 year mark. They had completely paid off the entire fiber install and where then turning a true profit. Which is why they lowered their 1gb service from $300 to $70, because they no longer needed to pay anything off.

  3. Hey Verizon, can you hear us NOW! by haruchai · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Nice to see cities stepping up to build better network infrastructure
    And if we can hold onto Net Neutrality, even better.

    --
    Pain is merely failure leaving the body
    1. Re:Hey Verizon, can you hear us NOW! by haruchai · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Hmm, well sometimes you need a little socialism to keep the capitalists in line.

      --
      Pain is merely failure leaving the body
    2. Re:Hey Verizon, can you hear us NOW! by Strangely+Familiar · · Score: 5, Insightful
      I see it more as monopoly busting in the last mile, not socialism. The companies sitting on their last mile monopolies are not all about free markets. They are all about capturing legislators and regulators to pass laws and regulations to maintain their monopolies. It is capitalism ("moneyism") in its crudest form, but has nothing to do with free markets.

      Unfortunately, the last mile tends to be a natural monopoly, as far as municipal planners are concerned. They don't want companies to come in and compete over the easiest to serve neighborhoods, and leave people in less dense areas out of luck. Planners like that often lose votes. So they have to make a company agree to cover everyone, and then make sure no competitor comes in and serves just the easy areas. See? It just ends up being a monopoly.

      So rather than have some new private company come in and take over the monopoly, cities are just deciding to provide services themselves. They do it with roads, sewers, water, and other utilities. Why not internet? You need right of ways, permits, etc. But you don't need to be a genius entrepeneur to run fiber and connect people to the Internet.

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      Join the IParty!
    3. Re:Hey Verizon, can you hear us NOW! by Firethorn · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Indeed, I'm mostly a libertarian and I view this as not really any different than a neighborhood, town, or city getting together and forming a cooperative. My reaction is 'good on them! Fie on established businesses that are failing to meet demands'.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    4. Re: Hey Verizon, can you hear us NOW! by Veritech_Ace · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yep, it was pure, unadulterated laissez-faire capitalism that got us into our modern telecoms mess. Not a government subsidy or market-distorting policy to be found. Good thing that our well-informed, honest bureaucrats will wield the fine scalpel of government to make it right, like they did in 1996.

    5. Re:Hey Verizon, can you hear us NOW! by mysidia · · Score: 4, Informative

      It's already socialism, because the big Telcos and cable providers have a government-protected monopoly.

      I like the "socialism" where the cities build some public infrastructure a little better. As long as they aren't going to start attempting to regulate content.

    6. Re: Hey Verizon, can you hear us NOW! by See+Attached · · Score: 2

      And now we all trail the civilized world in the available products, competition and pay the most for it. Lets make this an election year campaign.

      --
      Time for a new Political party in the US (or two!) One is off the rails Other cant pony up a leader.
    7. Re:Hey Verizon, can you hear us NOW! by theshowmecanuck · · Score: 1

      Do you make the same argument about why your shouldn't have police departments, fire departments, schools, sewer services, etc? If so, you are an idiot.

      --
      -- I ignore anonymous replies to my comments and postings.
    8. Re: Hey Verizon, can you hear us NOW! by arfonrg · · Score: 1

      Yeah, it's not like the telecom industry is highly regulated... oh wait.

      --
      Your thin skin doesn't make me a troll
    9. Re:Hey Verizon, can you hear us NOW! by rioki · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The last mile is really a logistical problem. The current US system is quite problematic. In many cases whoever owns the last mile provides the service and you basically have no choice.

      In contrast, I like the German system. Whoever owns the last mile, is forced by law to lease it at a reasonable price. The result is that you have real competition with dozen of telephone, internet, cable, gas and electricity providers. This is an almost perfect win-win system. The people owning the last mile infrastructure have an incentive to keep it running and upgrading it or else they will lose their income (penalties, incensed fees for better service, government subsidies) and the service providers can reach a large volume of people. This only mildly fails for rural areas, but here subsides are used to alleviate the problem. The other mild problem that established players (e.g. Deutsche Telekom) can rest on their laurels of existing infrastructure and provide crappy and overpriced service, but fixes itself in the long run.

    10. Re:Hey Verizon, can you hear us NOW! by Sqr(twg) · · Score: 1

      It's interesting how it is always "Socialism vs Capitalism", with most people divided into two camps, and very few saying that one or the other migh be better depending on circumstances.

      I like capitalism when there's a natural way that businesses can compete. For example, adjacent coffee shops might compete on a number of parameters like price, quality, speed of service, etc. It is possible to establish a new coffee shop in an area that already has one, if you can compete on at least one of theres parameters.

      I like socialism when there is no way that cometition will work. For example ISP:s provide basically identical service, so they can only compete on price and marketing. Marketing is bullshit, so rational people will pick the one with the lowest price. This means that with one ISP in place, the other ISP:s have no incentive to build infrastructure in the same area, because competition would drive prices down to where they can't recover the initial investment. The single ISP therefore gets a monopoly. It is preferrable that the monopoly is owned by the state.

    11. Re:Hey Verizon, can you hear us NOW! by MobyDisk · · Score: 1

      Can someone explain how either of these scenarios are capitalist?

    12. Re:Hey Verizon, can you hear us NOW! by Shatrat · · Score: 2

      The US system works exactly like the German system, as long as you are only dealing with voice or T1s. Unfortunately the laws have not been updated to apply to IP, Video, or cable and fiber delivery for that matter.

      --
      09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
    13. Re:Hey Verizon, can you hear us NOW! by haruchai · · Score: 1

      Good point about the content regulation. I suspect some of the "think of the children" crowd will push for that.

      --
      Pain is merely failure leaving the body
    14. Re:Hey Verizon, can you hear us NOW! by strikethree · · Score: 1

      It's already socialism, because the big Telcos and cable providers have a government-protected monopoly.

      No. That is closer to Fascism.

      --
      "Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
  4. How much? by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

    After the lawyers get theirs, how much is left over for construction? Well, I wish them the best of luck, and hope they just build it, despite what some judge who is paid to tie things up for a good long time says.

    --
    “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
  5. Really pisses me off! by EzInKy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Even with my tiny less then 6mb connection AT&T continues to threaten to charge me more for exceeding their 150gb bandwidth limit. They are already sucking over $100 a month from me, yet they still want more. It is way past due for the entire U.S. to consider cruising the internet as neceassary as cruising the roads. This is required infrastructure as necessary to survive today as highways were 30 years ago. So many mundane tasks such as keeping up with current events and even paying your bills necisatate using the internet that considering it a luxory is really out of synch with the current reality. The internet as become necessary for everyone to have, so the internet must be free for everyone to access.

    --
    Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.
    1. Re:Really pisses me off! by Khyber · · Score: 1

      Next time they threaten you, shove the Telecommunications Act of 1996 in their face and go "I can take you to court over this, if you want to talk about some billing issues, assholes. We gave you billions in taxpayer dollars for a product you didn't deliver. Guess who owes who right now?"

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    2. Re:Really pisses me off! by geekmux · · Score: 1

      Next time they threaten you, shove the Telecommunications Act of 1996 in their face and go "I can take you to court over this, if you want to talk about some billing issues, assholes. We gave you billions in taxpayer dollars for a product you didn't deliver. Guess who owes who right now?"

      Oh, you mean the same Telecommunciations Act that promised to ensure that CLECs would actually be able to thrive and compete?

      Yeah, uh where are they now? Oh yeah, I forgot, even the LECs own CLECs were driven out of business.

      Please knock if off with this bullshit. The time for any individual or even a small group to go against a major carrier is long over with. Threaten all you want.

      They will ALWAYS have enough customers no matter how many you might convince to get off their ass and walk away.

      They will ALWAYS have apathy on their side to guarantee people don't give a shit enough to get off their ass and do anything.

      And until someone in government stops smearing over the anti-monopoly laws with LEC-certified palm grease, there's not a fucking thing you can do to stop them.

      Oh, and those "billions" are long gone, paid out in executive bonuses.

  6. Future News by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    In 3 months, 19 states will pass laws banning municipal fiber networks.

    1. Re:Future News by Cramer · · Score: 1

      NC already has one.

  7. No, there is hope! by Strangely+Familiar · · Score: 3, Interesting

    There is no need to throw up your hands and give up. Chatanooga managed a high speed public interenet. http://money.cnn.com/2014/05/2.... Plus, you have people like Lawrence Lessig going after the root of the problem of corruption, and getting some serious traction with Mayday PAC. http://mayday.us./ Hell, even I am trying to fix the problems, but I am not getting too much exposure or traction. http://i-party.us./ But I still have hope. There are too many people trying to fix the problem of corruption and increasing monopolistic control for everyone to fail.

    --
    Join the IParty!
  8. Re:Where is the list? by _xeno_ · · Score: 3, Informative

    Right here, the list is located on the side of that page. I have JavaScript disabled as well, but I still found it in the menu at the top of each page.

    Anyway, the full list:

    Ammon, ID
    Auburn, IN
    Austin, TX
    Boston, MA
    Centennial, CO
    Champaign, IL
    Chattanooga, TN
    Clarksville, TN
    Jackson, TN
    Kansas City, KS
    Kansas City, MO
    Lafayette, LA
    Leverett, MA
    Louisville, KY
    Montrose, CO
    Morristown, TN
    Mount Vernon, WA
    Palo Alto, CA
    Ponca City, OK
    Portland, OR
    Raleigh, NC
    Rockport, ME
    San Antonio, TX
    Sandy, OR
    Santa Cruz County, CA
    Santa Monica, CA
    South Portland, ME
    Urbana, IL
    Westminster, MD
    Wilson, NC
    Winthrop, MN

    --
    You are in a maze of twisty little relative jumps, all alike.
  9. It works by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

    North State has done this in High Point, NC and the surrounding cities. It works, and OMG it works well. 100 a month for 250 channels, 1 Gig internet, and a landline. Flat rate. No big brother. No filtering. No raping on bills and nickel and diming BS. http://northstate.net/

    If other cities can do this or better, then go for it. Having this infrastructure in place free's up money and increases tech production throughout. It's about time people took internet infrastructure as seriously as electric power. Without it, your civilization is a 3rd world ghetto.

  10. and the cities are... by Noah+Haders · · Score: 5, Informative

    for those who are curious, the cities are:

    Ammon, ID
    Auburn, IN
    Austin, TX
    Boston, MA
    Centennial, CO
    Champaign, IL
    Chattanooga, TN
    Clarksville, TN
    Jackson, TN
    Kansas City, KS
    Kansas City, MO
    Lafayette, LA
    Leverett, MA
    Louisville, KY
    Montrose, CO
    Morristown, TN
    Mount Vernon, WA
    Palo Alto, CA
    Ponca City, OK
    Portland, OR
    Raleigh, NC
    Rockport, ME
    San Antonio, TX
    Sandy, OR
    Santa Cruz County, CA
    Santa Monica, CA
    South Portland, ME
    Urbana, IL
    Westminster, MD
    Wilson, NC
    Winthrop, MN

    1. Re:and the cities are... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Chattanooga is one of the cities that already has gigabit Internet. It is interesting to note that the EPB (which runs "the Gig") can be as corrupt as any of the telecom/cable monopolists in their own little way. So what is Chattanooga's stake in all this, since the city already has gigabit Internet? Simple: surrounding communities want the EPB to expand their coverage, and you-know-who is fighting against that, tooth and nail.

    2. Re:and the cities are... by Aryden · · Score: 4, Informative

      Even the buses in Chattanooga have free wifi, blew my mind when I went home this last time.

    3. Re:and the cities are... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      WARNING. WARNING. Make sure ISPs get classified as common carriers before your city takes over as your ISP.

      City council will vote to fuck you over if they're not required to be common carriers.

      e.g. "Woah. We can add $10 billion to the annual city budget if we inject ads and block encryption. All in favor? ... Passed by unanimous vote."

    4. Re:and the cities are... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Good news. One city on the list, Palo Alto, has been trying for years, but Palo Alto's hapless City Council has never been able to get it done. They have spent 100's of thousands on consultants, but have always gotten bogged down with infighting and lack of leadership. Ironic, in that they already have dark fiber present, and Stanford University right on their border (who they treat as a virtual enemy, every time Stanford wants to build *anything*. Anyway, I hope these cities build out fiber and break free of the thieving telcos!

    5. Re:and the cities are... by antdude · · Score: 1

      Bah, none in my areas. :(

      --
      Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
    6. Re:and the cities are... by tricorn · · Score: 2

      Champaign and Urbana are the same system, working also with the University of Illinois.

      They have the core network in place, City, schools, some businesses, and some under-served neighborhoods (using a federal grant), but progress in connecting other neighborhoods has been very slow. They're now working with another area company to install neighborhoods, but no good indication of how fast it will go. They've made some commitments, but only if enough houses in each neighborhood sign up.

      The biggest problem I've seen is getting a competent company to do the work, and keeping people informed. I'm still hopeful, I want to get away from AT&T. The City/University group has been turned into a non-profit, and they've pledged that the network will be open to ISPs on an equal basis (though I assume that the company building out the home connections will get a chunk of any revenue for some time until they've recouped their investment).

    7. Re:and the cities are... by MikeHammett · · Score: 1

      LOL, Champaign Urbana... towns where they get free government money to build FTTH and they screw the pooch anyway. Gotta love it...

    8. Re:and the cities are... by careysub · · Score: 1

      It is interesting to note that the EPB (which runs "the Gig") can be as corrupt as any of the telecom/cable monopolists in their own little way.

      Citation (or explanation) please?

      --
      Starships were meant to fly, Hands up and touch the sky - Nicky Minaj
    9. Re:and the cities are... by Forgefather · · Score: 2

      "who they treat as a virtual enemy, every time Stanford wants to build *anything*"

      As someone who lives in University City, MO home of Washington University I can understand the ire placed on universities.

      They are non profit organizations that makes massive profits and buy up all the land and houses that would be taxed and then remove them from the tax pool. In University City over 15% of the land is owned by a university that makes 2.1 billion dollars a year in profit, but refuses to pay taxes which strangles the city budget.

      --
      "There are lies, there are damn lies, and there are statistics"
    10. Re:and the cities are... by gfxguy · · Score: 1

      Yeah, because students spend as much as, for example, middle income families.

      --
      Stupid sexy Flanders.
    11. Re:and the cities are... by Mike+O'Hara · · Score: 1

      Chapaign Urbana? Does the CUCUG still exist?

      --
      [FUCK BETA]
    12. Re:and the cities are... by gfxguy · · Score: 1

      But that's not the point... I don't live anywhere near where I went to school. Most people I know don't. But it's the area with the school losing potential tax revenue. Not that I really care.

      --
      Stupid sexy Flanders.
    13. Re:and the cities are... by omnichad · · Score: 1

      Kansas City? The ones that already have Google Fiber? I can't even imagine one provider at Gigabit speeds where I'm at. Competitors at that speed? Unbelievable.

    14. Re:and the cities are... by Bengie · · Score: 1

      Most people I know either still live in the State or moved away for their first jobs, but have moved back to start families. Since the state covers nearly the entire cost of the Universities for in-state citizens, it doesn't really matter where they move, as long as it's still in the state.

  11. the plan by ZombieBraintrust · · Score: 1

    Meh Verizon is just going to buy the city network when it gets it's own people in office. This way they can have tax payers build the network and then buy it cheap.

    1. Re:the plan by haruchai · · Score: 2

      True that it won't be the 1st time something like that has happened but at least the damn thing will get built and there's a chance that clauses on the sale can be used to make sure that whichever company ends up owning it must provide minimum levels of service, periodic upgrades, etc or it reverts to the public for a set price.

      --
      Pain is merely failure leaving the body
  12. When this effort totally fails... by geekmux · · Score: 1

    ...perhaps then people will finally wake up and realize just how much your government supports the concept of monopolies.

    In the meantime, enjoy playing in the kiddie pool while you still can. I'm sure they're already greasing palms to ensure kiddie pools are outlawed soon.

  13. Municipal Internet is Inevitable (hopefully) by Scottingham · · Score: 2

    Unless there's a coup-de-retardante the next couple of elections I see(hope) internet gets its rightful place as a regulated municipal service. Like water. Juicy data water.

    1. Re:Municipal Internet is Inevitable (hopefully) by NormAtHome · · Score: 2

      I was sort of thinking the same thing, internet access is a necessity these days almost as much as electric, water, gas and maybe internet should be a public utility.

    2. Re:Municipal Internet is Inevitable (hopefully) by Roodvlees · · Score: 2

      Actually it should not be organized by governments, only regulated.
      As many other countries have already shown!
      Sadly the US seems to love capitalism so much that it wants to give companies infinite power, which they then abuse...

      --
      Thank you, Bradley Manning, Edward Snowden and so many others, for courageously defending humanity, my freedom and more!
    3. Re:Municipal Internet is Inevitable (hopefully) by MikeHammett · · Score: 1

      ^^^THIS^^^

  14. Re:My prediction.. by unitron · · Score: 1

    my prediction is that they will build the network get some cash out of subscriptions for a couple of years and then sell it off to one of the big players.

    exactly the same happened in my town during the late nineties with cable internet

    And despite being AC you can't name the community so that we can check the story for ourselves?

    --

    I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.

  15. Geocities by frazamatazzle · · Score: 1

    Hope the mayor from Leverett, MA recovers from that 4 bit gif virus that's been going around

  16. Write to your city politicians to get on board by dixonpete · · Score: 1

    I wrote mine today telling him that this would be a election great pony to ride.

  17. Boulder, CO has a ballot measure by 2centplain · · Score: 3, Informative
    https://bouldercolorado.gov/in...

    "If approved, this ballot measure would reestablish city autonomy for investing in community broadband services currently limited by Colorado Senate Bill 152 pdf (SB-152). SB-152 significantly limits the ability of municipal governments to provide broadband services, including potential partnerships with private entities. SB-152 includes a provision allowing Colorado municipal governments to exempt themselves from the law’s provisions via a public vote.

    The Boulder community would significantly benefit from more economical, higher-capacity broadband services, given the tech-savvy demographic, readiness for next-generation services, and publicly available fiber-optic infrastructure. Learn more about the benefits pdf.

    Although the City of Boulder has no current plans to create a public broadband utility or engage in new public-private partnerships, passing the ballot measure would ensure that the planning and execution of new public initiatives would be unencumbered by significant limitations in state law.

    Approved Ballot Question
    Affirming the City’s Right to Provide Telecommunication Services Shall the City of Boulder be authorized to provide high-speed Internet services (advanced services), telecommunications services, and/or cable television services to residents, businesses, schools, libraries, nonprofit entities and other users of such services, either directly or indirectly with public or private sector partners, as expressly permitted by 29-27-101 to 304, “Competition in Utility and Entertainment Services,” of the Colorado Revised Statutes, without limiting its home rule authority?"

  18. No wonder by Bender+Unit+22 · · Score: 1

    The lack of proper infrastructure can break a city.

  19. So Sad by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

    Santa Cruz was one of the earlier cities on the internet, thanks to UCSC. Today, access is ass. And they have one of the highest costs of living in the nation. It's often been one of the most-connected cities in the USA, for example it was part of Cricket territory. But today it's ass.

    Too bad they couldn't give a rat's ass while I still lived there. The local ISPs are mostly awful. Even the ones that don't suck are slow, slow, slow.

    --
    "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    1. Re:So Sad by Sir_Eptishous · · Score: 1

      Well, it isn't SC, It's SC County...
      Have fun running fiber to someone in Bonny Doon, Corralitos or the Aptos hills.

      --
      We play the game with the bravery of being out of range
    2. Re:So Sad by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Well, it isn't SC, It's SC County...
      Have fun running fiber to someone in Bonny Doon, Corralitos or the Aptos hills.

      Yeah well, nobody should expect 100% coverage.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    3. Re:So Sad by amicusNYCL · · Score: 1

      Santa Cruz was one of the earlier cities on the internet, thanks to UCSC. Today, access is ass. And they have one of the highest costs of living in the nation. It's often been one of the most-connected cities in the USA, for example it was part of Cricket territory. But today it's ass.

      Too bad they couldn't give a rat's ass while I still lived there. The local ISPs are mostly awful. Even the ones that don't suck are slow, slow, slow.

      What do you have against ass?

      --
      "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
    4. Re:So Sad by kwbauer · · Score: 1

      Really. That is exactly what people expect. We turned our health care insurance on its head because 90-96% coverage was inadequate.

    5. Re:So Sad by ozgood · · Score: 1

      Yeah, until you tried to use said insurance. Then, miraculously you weren't covered all of a sudden.

    6. Re:So Sad by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      We turned our health care insurance on its head because 90-96% coverage was inadequate.

      My pre-obamacare insurance was useless. There were zero providers in my area accepting new patients. I had 0% coverage. So if I have useless coverage now, at least nothing is worse.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  20. Instead of the "bah" ... by Taco+Cowboy · · Score: 1

    Bah, none in my areas. :(

    No matter how many "bah..." you utter ain't gonna change the matter for the better if you don't pick yourself up from your fat ass and DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT !

    What I am saying may sound harsh, but the thing that you are expressing is exactly the one thing that is retarding the cities / communities from progressing forward --- When everybody is waiting for someone else to do it there ain't gonna be anything done

    --
    Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
    1. Re:Instead of the "bah" ... by antdude · · Score: 1

      "I'm not fat. I'm big boned."

      --
      Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
    2. Re:Instead of the "bah" ... by antdude · · Score: 1

      Aren't there a lot of rules and laws to to make this difficult these days though?

      --
      Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
  21. It's the city streets model by swb · · Score: 1

    The city builds the streets but for the most part doesn't provide the services that use the streets.

    I don't see why municipal networks need to be any different -- they can let third parties sell networking services from Internet to TV to site-site connectivity. They could even let out bids for infrastructure management of the physical network.

    Since government is government, you'll end up with something like public transportation, a low-cost subsidized Internet access but I would think that would be just as much a threat to private service providers as the city bus is to most carmakers.

  22. In unrelated news by Snufu · · Score: 5, Funny

    ATT, Comcast and Verizon just lowered rates and expanded fiber coverage to the same 32 cities.

    1. Re:In unrelated news by jd2112 · · Score: 1

      ATT, Comcast and Verizon just expanded fiber coverage to the same 32 cities with low introductory rates that will skyrocket once the new local competition is dealt with.

      FIFY

      --
      Any insufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology.
  23. Ponca City? by l0n3s0m3phr34k · · Score: 2

    At first look this "small" city in Oklahoma is strange, yet with the local of a Google datacenter, seems perhaps the cities leaders see the future of what could be? I'm from Tulsa, and our "highspeed" (at least where I live) is a joke. I'm locked into a semi-illegal "exclusive contract" my apartment complex has with AT&T so nothing other than DSL at a 2.4MB max. But even if my city suddenly "jumped" on this, I still wouldn't see any results at my place for 10-15 years if that.

    We could, of course, utilize our flood control pathways to install high-strength water-proofed fiber optics all over the city within a few years. Tulsa's flood control system spreads into every area of the city, and a fiber optic system that mimics the natural flow might add an interesting experiment too. We're far too busy tearing our roads up though to bother with anything hi-tech. Every single semi-major street is torn up or at least has construction road signs causing traffic jams; since the 1980's the construction barrel industry has made millions off us taxpayers.

  24. Highway analogy by jeffb+(2.718) · · Score: 2

    I'd recommend against pushing that highway analogy. It makes it too easy for them to come back with:

    "You don't get to drive 150mph on a highway designed for 70mph."

    "We need to make sure overweight trucks don't destroy the road surface for the rest of our drivers."

    "If everyone drove as much as you do, the roads would be so jammed that nobody would be able to get anywhere."

    Each of these points is flawed, but the analogy you posed doesn't do much to help that.

  25. Proposed Rules by Tokolosh · · Score: 1

    1. The service you provide is Internet. Therefore, no screwing with packets, strict network neutrality, no port blocking, no prohibition on uses such as servers. In short, plain bandwidth at a price that does not discriminate between customers.
    2. You do not regulate yourselves.
    3. There are no barriers to future entrants to the market that do not apply to you.

    --
    Prove anything by multiplying Huge Number times Tiny Number
  26. Re:Corrected headline by omnichad · · Score: 1

    You could say the same about POTS, electrical line, or plumbing. They are all necessary infrastructure, and the cost is not the main driving factor.

  27. Presumed non-compete agreement by Optic7 · · Score: 1

    Just for reference, here's an interesting bit of news from a few years ago that never seemed to get much notice, but which I think may have something to do with FIOS seemingly grinding to a halt: https://gigaom.com/2011/12/02/...

    Basically, it seems to basically boil down to a secret non-compete agreement between the established wireless and wired internet providers to not invade each others markets with new competition.

  28. At least by DarthVain · · Score: 1

    At least if your City does that however, presumably that would go towards the tax base, and would help them manage their taxes better or be able to lower them, rather than just going to some faceless corporate coffers.

    Which is to say, it isn't ideal, but presumably at least the local users might reap some benefit out of it at least.