Windows 10, From a Linux User's Perspective

Phoronix features today a review of Windows 10 that's a little different from most you might read, because it's specifically from the point of view of an admin who uses both Windows and Linux daily, rather than concentrating only on the UI of Windows qua Windows. Reviewer Eric Griffith finds some annoyances (giant start menu even when edited to contain fewer items, complicated process if you want a truly clean install), but also some good things, like improved responsiveness ("feels much more responsive than even my Gnome and KDE installations under Fedora") and an appropriately straightforward implementation of virtual workspaces. Overall? Windows 10 is largely an evolutionary upgrade over Windows 7 and Windows 8.1, rather than a revolutionary one. Honestly I think the only reason it will be declared as 'so good' is because Windows 8/8.1 were so bad. Sure, Microsoft has made some good changes under the surface-- the animations feel crisper, its relatively light on resources, battery life is good. There is nothing -wrong- with Windows 10 aside from the Privacy Policy. If you're on Windows Vista, or Windows 8/8.1, then sure, upgrade. The system is refreshing to use, it's perfectly fine and definitely an upgrade. If you're on Windows 7 though? I'm not so sure. ... Overall, there's really nothing to see here. It's not terrible, it's not even 'bad, it's just... okay. A quiet little upgrade.

Comments

My big hope

[smittyoneeach]

My big hope is that this version's Environment Variable easter egg is buried under a few more layers of indirection.
With each new version, one must spend several extra minutes figuring out where the Double Secret Super Duper Advanced Don't Try This At Home Brutal Power User Steel Cage Death Match Of Dh00m dialog is located, merely to set the PATH.
Sure, I'll get modded 'Flamebait' for this, but seriously: quit kicking me in the groin, Redmond.

Re:My big hope

[Anonymous Coward]

So instead of

start->rightclick computer->properties->advanced system settings->advanced->environment variables

it is

right click start->system->advanced system settings->advanced->environment variables

The search seems to be very shitty this time. The find was ok and ok in win7 and win8. Now it tends to find things out on the internet. So I have had to go digging around for settings that 'just showed up' in win7.

Also I have 2 wireless networks. It just randomly decided to change preferred the list on install. They removed the nice GUI they had in 7 and made it so you can ONLY do it from command line. Which will end up being something I have to look up from time to time. Because I will only do it once a year or so.

Also your point is valid. Where the F did they put the settings THIS time.

In some ways it is shorter/easier. In others worse.

I turned all the telemetry on. Sure they are 'spying' on me. But maybe they will take the hint about the things I am changing. If we all do it...

Re:My big hope

[Anonymous Coward]

My big hope is that this version's Environment Variable easter egg is buried under a few more layers of indirection.

With each new version, one must spend several extra minutes figuring out where the Double Secret Super Duper Advanced Don't Try This At Home Brutal Power User Steel Cage Death Match Of Dh00m dialog is located, merely to set the PATH.

You're kidding, right?

Hit the Windows key, type the first couple letters of "environment" (on my machine "env" is enough) and hit down arrow a few times to select "Edit the system environment variables" (or "for your account", whichever tickles your fancy). Hit Enter.

This has worked reliably ever since the search feature got built into the Start menu in Windows 7.

If remembering that PATH is under "environment variables" is too hard then searching for "path" will actually work just as well.

Re:My big hope

[thebjorn]

Win + Break gets you to the link for 'Advanced system settings'. Works in at least win7, 8, 8.1, 10.

Re:My big hope

[smittyoneeach]

Nothing about the Windows key ever suggested using it like that. I've always waded through the User menus as close as I could get to the system menu, and put a shortcut on the desktop.

Re:My big hope

[bmo]

Because that's intuitive.

Settings, even "advanced system settings" should be in the control-panel.

It's like Windows is following the Gnome crowd. "Let's hide configurations, because letting the user adjust the workspace to his work is confusing!"

*spit*

--
BMO

Re:My big hope

[psavo]

The windows search (the one where you just press Windows key and write in) was _the_ thing that was became great in W8. It was okayish (apart from retarded filesystem search) since Vista, where it showed more into various Control Panel dialogs. MS was dumb to not sell it as the next coming of $deity.

Re:My big hope

[Skuld-Chan]

Learn to powershell?:

To read a variable:

Get-ChildItem Env:
or
$env:Varname

and to set

[environment]::SetEnvironmentVariable("Var","Value","User/Machine")

evening doing this from cmd.exe isn't all that hard - in fact its just like ms-dos was:

SET variable=string

Then

echo %variable%

Seriously - this hasn't changed in 34-35 years.

Re:My big hope

[t0y]

It's in the same place since at least Vista. Probably earlier but I can't remember.

Re:My big hope

[Sponge Bath]

Placing chicken entrails in the lower right screen corner also performs this function. Windows lets you accomplish tasks in multiple intuitive ways.

Re: My big hope

[cyber-vandal]

Until you reboot and then it disappears smartass. Next you'll be telling us to update autoexec.bat

Re:My big hope

[exomondo]

Win + Break gets you to the link for 'Advanced system settings'. Works in at least win7, 8, 8.1, 10.

Ha! So it does. Thanks.

Re:My big hope

[Anonymous Coward]

Because that's intuitive.

Yeah it's about as intuitive as Ctrl/Cmd + V for "paste", they arent going to put a big fucking "Advanced System Settings" button on your fischer price keyboard for the simpletons. If you're doing it often you'll remember the shortcut, if you're not doing it often then going through menus isn't going to be a hassle.

Re:My big hope

[danomac]

Also, Windows+X pops up a menu with some handy shortcuts, including an administrative shell. This only works on Win8 and higher, from what I remember...

Re:My big hope

[jader3rd]

With each new version, one must spend several extra minutes figuring out where the Double Secret Super Duper Advanced Don't Try This At Home Brutal Power User Steel Cage Death Match Of Dh00m dialog is located, merely to set the PATH.

Whaaaat? Could you provide examples of how to set the PATH variable in the different version of Windows. Because honestly, I've only ever done it one way for last 16 some odd years now.

Re: My big hope

[nctritech]

Brilliant. Someone hand me a thesaurus and I'll find plenty of reasons why a search bar for finding your bearings in an unfamiliar environment is incredibly fucking stupid. You have to wonder who the genius at Microsoft is that thought this was such a wonderful idea. Joe User who hasn't ever heard of System Restore will not be able to find it when he searches for "fix my computer," but he'll certainly find the "I am from Microsoft and your computer is virus infected!" people promptly thanks to Bing(TM).

Re: My big hope

[ancientt]

You're right, for setting environment variables permanently you use setx instead. http://ss64.com/nt/setx.html

I learned the DOS command line well in the early nineties, and a surprising amount has stuck with me. I use Windows 10 at work, admin Hyper-V and Linux servers there and run Linux at home 99% of the time. This kind of review looks exactly what I'm looking for but really, since I do much of my work from the command line in both environments, I'm surprised the GUI gets so much focus. It just seems like the hard way most of the time to me.

The first thing I usually do on a Windows machine is pin cmd to the task bar, and from there, right click and run as administrator. I have a c:\bin folder where I stick all the PsTools, Sysinternals, putty/kitty and unix utils tools I need, so I usually

setx PATH "%PATH%;C:\bin\;C:\bin\usr\local\wbin\"

and then custom create a bat file or two to point to my cloud stored resources. All that works on Windows XP - Windows 10 without any special effort.

I started using Windows 10 shortly after it first came out for Windows Insiders. I noticed that some of our proprietary business software doesn't work, but it still doesn't work on Windows 8 either, so that's hardly a surprise. All my command line stuff seems to work without any effort and nearly all my normal software works, the exception being Outlook's search which seems to have been broken in 8 too. (My setup is abnormal enough that I'm not really surprised, just frustrated.) The RSAT took a couple tries to get running, but was working.... until I did a clean install of Win 10 with the official release and now can't get it to work for love or money. (Apparently that's coming out in the next couple weeks and the stuff I was using in Beta won't install in the released version.) Also the Hyper-V manager seems to have a problem with one of our servers now, but I suspect that's a problem on that server rather than with the tool. We don't reboot those things very often, so I'm optimistic the next reboot of that server will resolve the issue.

What I do like in Windows 10 is the improved command line defaults. I didn't really need it, but I like the color options making it easier to spot which command line I'm after and default equivalent to Quick Edit settings so I don't have to remember to do it myself. I'm still getting used to being able to use Ctrl+C on it. I also like the improved snap window (Windows + arrow key) settings, being able to use quarter screens easily and the prompts to choose second windows is quite nice.

I enabled Cortana and the search function improved. I expected to hate it since I only use the search for finding things already on my local computer, but that improved too. I'm not sure I like sharing everything with Microsoft but I share so much already, I'm willing to live with it in exchange for better search responses for now.

Re: My big hope

[bjs555]

I'm not sure how well known it is but there is "God Mode" for Win 7, 8, and 10. To get God Mode you create a folder on the desktop and rename it as described below:

1. Go to the Desktop
2. Right-click and select New Folder.
3. Right-click on the New Folder and select Rename.
4. Change the name of the folder [just copy & paste the following string]: GodMode.{ED7BA470-8E54-465E-825C-99712043E01C}
5. Open the folder and you will find every setting/utility under the sun organized into a sensible menu that you can browse through without knowing what name to type into a search bar.

Re:My big hope

[w_dragon]

Try searching for 'windows update' that way. On my Win10 box it doesn't show. If I search in the main screen of the control panel it still doesn't show even though it's right there on the fucking screen! Somehow they managed to royally screw up search in this release.

Re:My big hope

[ultranova]

It's like Windows is following the Gnome crowd. "Let's hide configurations, because letting the user adjust the workspace to his work is confusing!"

It is. Microsoft and Gnome are marketing to companies. And companies want to treat their employees as interchangeable cogs. That means the desktop needs to be non-configurable in any meaningful way, to ensure any user can be dropped in front of any computer and be instantly up to speed without having to learn anything. So as far as Microsoft and Gnome are concerned, personalization is a bad thing.

Re:My big hope

[benjymouse]

Type

[Start] e n v

Win 10 responds with
"Edit environment variables for your account"

Type

[Enter]

Still works

Re:My big hope

[I'm New Around Here]

It might not be intuitive, but it's been the case for a couple decades now.

Re: My big hope

[serviscope_minor]

I thought thid was a *joke* at first which mad slashdot mods decidedwas informative. No, apparently it's completely real.

And people say Linux is hard to use!

Re:My big hope

[TheRaven64]

Intuitive is always a red herring in UI design. There are two far more important attributes:

• Is it discoverable?
• Is it consistent?

Control/command-x/c/v for cut/copy/paste are discoverable and consistent: if you got to the edit menu of any application (visible by the default on non-braindead UIs and the starting point for finding any command), then you will see the icons next to it telling you what the shortcut is. Now that it's discovered, it's consistent everywhere. Except in terminals if you're using control instead of command, because terminals need control-c for interrupt and so break the good UI, but on a Mac it's the same in every single application including the terminal.

In contrast, most of the Windows-key-plus-modifier combinations can only be discovered by reading the documentation. There's nothing that a user is encouraged by the UI to click on that tells them about what these modifiers are (though I vaguely remember that Windows 98 had a 'show desktop' icon in the start bar that told you about windows-d in the tooltip).

Intuitive implies that you are meant to use your psychic powers or some innate knowledge to find how the UI works. Good UIs do not work that way, they make it easy for people to learn and then they allow the user to apply the knowledge everywhere. If someone complains about a UI not being intuitive, then it's a good hint that they don't know anything about HCI.

Re: My big hope

[Anonymous Coward]

The name "GodMode" is unnecessary.

Re:My big hope

[AmiMoJo]

So, when you opened the "user menus", by which I assume you mean the start menu since that's the only one after you boot up, you didn't notice the search box or the flashing cursor that was placed inside it waiting for your input?

In fact, on Windows 10 the search box is now in the task bar. It's huge, impossible to miss, right next to the start icon. I actually disable it because I'm expecting my apps to be there by default. I'm sure that's why MS put it there, to make it blindingly obvious and impossible to ignore.

Re:My big hope

[flink]

My big hope is that this version's Environment Variable easter egg is buried under a few more layers of indirection.

With each new version, one must spend several extra minutes figuring out where the Double Secret Super Duper Advanced Don't Try This At Home Brutal Power User Steel Cage Death Match Of Dh00m dialog is located, merely to set the PATH.

Since Windows XP (and maybe 2000) up through Windows 7, you could just right click on Computer in Explorer, select Properties..., and click the "Advanced" button, and click "Environment Variables..." button. Yeah, it's perhaps too many steps, but they haven't changed the route to get there significantly in 15 years.

Re:My big hope

[tlhIngan]

You're kidding, right?

Hit the Windows key, type the first couple letters of "environment" (on my machine "env" is enough) and hit down arrow a few times to select "Edit the system environment variables" (or "for your account", whichever tickles your fancy). Hit Enter.

This has worked reliably ever since the search feature got built into the Start menu in Windows 7.

Or just realize that it's been in the same dialog since Windows NT and maybe since Windows 95. Advanced System Settings. Just go to the System control panel (Win-Pause, Right-Click Start->Control Panel (Windows 8+), etc), then click "Advanced System Settings" on the left. From there you have options to adjust environment variables, startup options, page file settings, and remote login.

The dialog hasn't changed in decades.

Re:My big hope

[smittyoneeach]

With 8.1 I actually have used the search feature. To locate Paint. Because #GreatUI

Re:My big hope

[smittyoneeach]

Everything is easy when you know how to do it.

Re:My big hope

[flink]

Everything is easy when you know how to do it.

I'm not saying it's as easy as it should be, and it is really dumb that the environment is so buried. I was just responding to the notion that that MS is continuously shifting around the location of the environment settings. They're not: it's been in the same, albeit obscure, location for a long time.

Re:My big hope

[smittyoneeach]

The fun thing about this thread is that I've had a nearly Perl-esque TMTOWTDI outburst in reply to my original riff. And yet those environment variables are still buried at some obscure registry key.

Re:review of the review

[smittyoneeach]

Now, just because you had to tweak the query string to read the other three pages doesn't make it a bad article. It's not like anyone will follow the link anyway.

Windows 8/8.1 was bad?

[__aaclcg7560]

Honestly I think the only reason it will be declared as 'so good' is because Windows 8/8.1 were so bad.

I thought the Windows 8/8.1 desktop was no better or no worse than the Windows 7 desktop. Of course, I banished the Metro interface five minutes after installing. Then again, I never bother with the GUI on Linux, as the command line is always excellent.

Re: Windows 8/8.1 was bad?

[__aaclcg7560]

I'm the guy at work who rips out the Gnome/KDE window managers, installs Blackbox, and automatically runs terminal windows on login. When I use Linux, it's exclusively the command line. My coworkers hate using my laptop in a pinch, as they can't find their Red Hat certified asses without a GUI to guide them.

Re:Windows 8/8.1 was bad?

[Anonymous Coward]

really ? you still want to work without a gui in this age of 16GB rams and quad core processors?? The benefit you get is nothing and tends to zero. The gui is a huge jump in usability so inspite of your fondness for geekiness, the terminal is still an ancient tool. Not that its slow, but the huge learning curve for most current users is not worth it.

Besides why work in a terminal when the gui these days is so good! Ive been a linux user since RH 3.0, shifted to debian and stayed there for ages, I still run a debian based web server and i'll tell you windows is ages ahead of every linux desktop out there. They have over the course of years also fixed most of the holes people kept cribbing about. Do i still love linux? ofcourse ... i do like editing files config with vi once in a while, but for the most part i prefer the GUI. And why not .. ?

I've used Windows 8.1, it was actually nice after the first few weeks once i got the hang of it. Infact i've liked windows since windows 7. ... Iam typing this on a mac and i use a PC at work, but sure as hell my next laptop is going to be a windows based machine. the price + features combo beats even free linux configuration hell. I have no time for configuring stuff or wade through different licenses anymore.

Re:Windows 8/8.1 was bad?

[shoor]

There is a learning curve, but I went through that in the 80s on unix systems before X-Windows came out. I've forgotten a lot of things, though, if I need them, it's not hard for me to google to be reminded. (But even that is only because I've got the sense of it already in my mind. I don't know how easy it would be for a newcomer to find out how to do some of this stuff by googling.)

I admit I actually don't know much about what modern guis and file managers can do, so maybe I'm missing something. Can they dive down through a directory tree finding every file that's older than x but newer than y? or every file that has a suffix jpg, or list them sorted by size or time? and then do something with them? tar them off to an archive or move them or rename them (jpg to jpeg for instance? or change every capital letter in the name to lower case?) And if they can, what's the learning curve for that?

I will say that as a command line guy I hate spaces in filenames! There are workarounds, like changing the IFS in the environment, but it's ugly.

Re: Windows 8/8.1 was bad?

[dbIII]

To be even more hardcore (well no, actually just useful) there is "tmux" so you can have a full screen terminal that can be divided into panes and named tabs. It's like having a tiling window manager for terminals and saves messing about with resizing etc.
https://tmux.github.io/
Of course I use it with X and a window manager so I get decent fonts and can run GUI stuff as well. It does tend to confuse older onlookers when you start firefox or something else graphical from what looks to them like an old green screen terminal :)

Re: Windows 8/8.1 was bad?

[TheRaven64]

Have they finally figured out how GUIs are supposed to work? They keep completely changing shit all the time.

Are you talking about Windows or Linux?

Re: Windows 8/8.1 was bad?

[munwin99]

Am loving i3.

Re:Honestly?

[jedidiah]

A lot of actual Windows users thought that the UI in Windows 8 SUCKED. It's not just Linux users. Win8 was like Vista. The fact that there is even a Win 8.1 is an artifact of how badly genuine Windows users reacted to Win8.

Pretending that this is just the complaints of Linux users is extremely disingenuous.

No Privacy Policy

[kilgortrout]

"There is nothing -wrong- with Windows 10 aside from the Privacy Policy."

And apart from that, how did you enjoy the play Mrs. Lincoln!!!!

Re:No Privacy Policy

[U2xhc2hkb3QgU3Vja3M]

I think the play had some plot holes in it and way too many red curtains.

Re:No Privacy Policy

[Anonymous Coward]

Real funny, that one. I think ultimately this incredible amount of arrogance might be what ultimately brings Microsoft down; they have always lived on being the standard, apart from initially when it was being "cheap".

But with these data slurping practices, and their haughty arrogance about it, this is not going to fly in anywhere that matters, be it corporations or government sector or whatever, this data slurping is a huge no-no, and if Microsoft thinks they'll get away with it because they are Microsoft, they are going to get a nasty surprise. And once they've lost that market, they no longer are "the standard".

Remember, they can only get away with this kind of shit because people let them. People as in "we, the people". There already are large organizations using Linux and Open/Libre Office, in real life. The myth that it's impossible is just that, a myth that fanboys spread for some inexplicable reason, probably fear of being redundant. It's always amusing to think of when people say "it's impossible", that once upon a time, business was made using typewriters. If there is a will, there's a way.

Re:No Privacy Policy

[dbIII]

"There is nothing -wrong- with Windows 10 aside from the Privacy Policy." And apart from that, how did you enjoy the play Mrs. Lincoln!!!!

Connected with that is the bandwidth sharing.
The bittorrent thing is acceptable in World of Warcraft because they inform you about it on the screen and provide a box to tick to turn it off. MS noticed that Blizzard is sending out patches that way, decided to copy it but decided to remove the things that makes it acceptable.
It's a pretty big deal in places where users have data limits and uploads count to those limits.

Re:No Privacy Policy

[rtb61]

Sharing the end users bandwidth and data limits without specifically obtaining the end users permission and warning them of costs would in fact be piracy and a crime for which M$ should be prosecuted. Invasion of privacy can also be considered copyright infringement, as you have created the content they are illegally copying and stealing and via bandwidth and caps they are also pirating. Really some extreme stuff going on for which they should be prosecuted.

Re:No Privacy Policy

[umafuckit]

But with these data slurping practices, and their haughty arrogance about it, this is not going to fly in anywhere that matters, ...

Where it really matters is at Joe end user. It's the millions of Joes out there running Windows that gives it its user base and makes it "the standard." Joe mostly doesn't care about the data snooping (he uses Facebook anyway). However, Joe does like the fancy new features: the nice Weather and News icons on the task bar. The way Win 10 integrates with his other devices, etc.

Re:No Privacy Policy

[umafuckit]

I have tried Linux. First off there are way too many versions and everyone trumps their personal favorite, none of which seem to be actually superior. So solid advice is difficult to come by.

There is plenty of "solid advice." It's up to you to integrate it and make a choice. It's not that hard: look at the two or three most popular distros and choose one. Once you can use one, switching to another is trivial. Frankly, other than the selection of packages, the differences between them aren't substantial.

There is the SystemD wars...This alone would be enough to drive new people away.

I'd be surprised if new users even knew about this. It's not relevant to a beginner.

The video drivers were horrid. (my system is AMD based) It won't run many of my programs without a windows emulator that also wont run many of my programs.(mostly just doesn't run things well) None of the open source alternatives seemed superior to me, at best they were good, but not great.

I don't know about AMD, but the NVIDIA drivers have always been fine for me.

I'm a driver that does graphic arts and photography as a hobby, game, movies, music...that sort of thing.

Maybe Linux isn't useful to you. Especially if, as you say later, you have little interest in learning.

Mostly agree

[EdwardFurlong]

Although you can make the start menu smaller than what is shown.

Re:Mostly agree

[bondsbw]

Yep.

Re:Honestly?

[The Real Dr John]

The UI is truly awful with the random flat, single mono-colored tiles and windows. As mentioned in the article, there really is no benefit to upgrading from Windows 7. If games start to make good use of Direct X 12 there might be a reason to switch, but it really isn't an upgrade in most respects.

Finally

[jbmartin6]

“Overall, there's really nothing to see here. It's not terrible, it's not even 'bad, it's just... okay. A quiet little upgrade.”

Cue choir music and white spotlight! This is the way it should be! I've often observed, people use applications not the OS. The OS should make it easy, simple, fast, etc. for people to use their applications in the way that they want. No more, no less. When the OS gets in the way, it is a fail. The best, and best selling, versions of Windows were the ones that moved closer to this principle than their predecessors.

You are not a REAL Linux user either

[U2xhc2hkb3QgU3Vja3M]

A real Linux user's review: do you honestly think I'm going to install Windows on my computer?

Linux isn't about choice any longer.

[Anonymous Coward]

As a former long time Linux user, lately I've felt that I've had much less choice than ever before.

I primarily used Debian. When installing Debian 8, I didn't really have a choice about which init system I wanted to use. I got saddled with systemd. After experiencing some problems with it, I wanted to switch back to sysvinit. Sysvinit isn't perfect, but at least it worked for me in the past. But after reading how to do this, it sounded like a very bad idea to me. Most likely I would have ended up with a broken installation.

I looked at using a different Linux distro, but there too my choices were limited. Most of them have switched to systemd, too. The ones that didn't are unusable for other reasons. Slackware is stuck in the 1990s. I don't have days to spare to configure my system so it's just barely usable! Gentoo is another option, but I don't have a week to waste waiting for the basic software to compile. In practice, I don't have much choice at all!

It isn't much different for the desktop environments. Recent versions of KDE and GNOME aren't all that different. KDE 5 isn't as outright awful as GNOME 3 is, but it isn't a desktop environment I like using, either. It's bloated, and has never felt natural to use. The other desktop environments, like Xfce or the many window managers, end up providing an environment that's too stripped down to be useful. In practice, I don't have much choice at all!

It's the same for web browsers. One option is Chrome (or Chromium). The other option is Firefox. Firefox looks and feels almost exactly like Chrome, except it's a lot slower and uses way more memory. Opera still exists, but the newest version is basically just a skin for Chrome. Seamonkey, Dillo and some of the other Gecko- or WebKit-wrapping browsers are way too limited for real use. In practice, I don't have much choice at all!

With modern Linux, I now get to choose between broken and unusable. Or I get to choose between bloated and slow. Or I get to choose between a bunch of options, all of which are equally shitty. I have "choice", but only in theory. In practice, I just get fucked.

Re:Linux isn't about choice any longer.

[Anonymous Coward]

No, systemd is merely an init system that has caused a lot of people a lot of problems.

When so many people experience so many problems with a piece of software, like has happened with systemd, of course there will be complaints!

The problem is with the software, and not with the people who have been forced into using it.

Why are you trying to politicize something that's a technical problem?

Re:Linux isn't about choice any longer.

[dbIII]

Because it's a political problem with Redhat office politics that has escaped into the world due to a political deal with the gnome people.
The main "problem" solved is to bring init and a HUGE pile of other things under the control of a small group, with a spotty pedigree (pulse-fucking-audio, NetworkManager etc) instead of being separate projects. It would be better if it was a small project with a simple goal of faster boot times like "upstart" was instead of a major project to being all of linux userspace under the "benevolent" control of a small number of people. It doesn't matter how "benevolent" they are, it's initially way beyond their expertise but they forced it on others before they gained that expertise in so many elements of linux userspace.

Re:Linux isn't about choice any longer.

[serviscope_minor]

Dillo and some of the other Gecko- or WebKit-wrapping browsers are way too limited for real use. In practice, I don't have much choice at all!

Define real use? I use a mixture of Dillo and Firefox. If it works on Dillo I use it, if it doesn't, I paste the URL into firefox. Slasahdot works perfectly on Dillo, but the way. Hell, nevermind beta, I skipped the whole slashdot 2.0 thing and am still happily using the incredibly snappy "classic".

I actually use Dillo a lot for work. It turns out most tech and documentation sites work fine on Dillo.

Copyrights my ass

[behrooz0az]

http://www.phoronix.com/image-...
Now I know why people ask if my gnome desktop is Windows fucking 10.
sure They didn't copy this from gnome shell or any other desktop, because microsoft is a big giant group of smart people who can come up with their own ideas.

Re:Copyrights my ass

[Merk42]

http://blog.grapii.com/wp-cont...
Now I know why people ask if my Mac desktop is gnome fucking shell.
sure They didn't copy this from Mac OS X or any other desktop, because GNOME is a big giant group of smart people who can come up with their own ideas.

Re:So, in other words, stick to Linux

[U2xhc2hkb3QgU3Vja3M]

I'm always amazed at how people gloss over the worst in Microsoft's products. These things are proprietary beasts of which the users have little to no real control. [...] On Microsoft Windows your pretty much just screwed the moment Microsoft dictates a change you don't like.

That's so true. That's also why I use a Mac, because Apple is not at all like Micros- Posted from a Mac mini. Get your own Mac mini today! -oft and will always leave me in control of my device.

It's 2015 and File Explorer STILL sucks

[Anonymous Coward]

Still no long file path support, file search still sucks and many dialogs are still size-restricted, to pick 3 examples.

Literally 100s of millions of people bang into these problems every @£$%^ing day.

FFS, Microsoft, fix what's still broken.

Slashdotted, already.

[Announcer]

Looks like that server is already a smoldering pile of silicon...

Here's the CORAL link, which as of this writing, isn't working, yet... but in my experience, it usually does start working before the full Slashdot wave subsides.

http://www.phoronix.com.nyud.n...

Not the end of the world?

[ITRambo]

The comments made sense and were not scary. People want to be scared when reading news. Come on, let's get back to saying that Windows 10 will create worm holes that suck us all back to Vista and that Microsoft will be snapping pictures of you in your underwear, not the clean ones either.

If he doesn't want the huge start menu, resize it

[SensitiveMale]

Live tiles are fantastic. I love how people denigrate live tiles while plastering widgets all over the desktop.

I've only encountered one problem with 10

[msobkow]

The one problem I encountered with Windows 10 is my Linux box could no longer print to the network printer. Sure enough, sharing had been disabled by the upgrade. But even when I re-enabled sharing of the printer, Linux couldn't print to it. Linux could find it. Linux could connect to it. But it would get stuck trying to spool the document and never show up in the print queue under Windows 10.

I opted for the obvious (and easy) solution of moving the printer to my Linux box, but not everyone can do that, especially with a truly shared printer in an office. Though, to be fair, print servers really should be running Linux in the first place. They're more reliable.

I couldn't believe how much crapware I had to disable with Windows 10, though, especially from the menu. WTF would I want an "XBox" account tile for when I don't own a gaming system of any kind, much less one susceptible to the "red ring of death"?

On the bright side, all of my commercial databases seem to run just fine. Even Cygwin hasn't given me grief yet.

Re:I've only encountered one problem with 10

[rcase5]

I couldn't believe how much crapware I had to disable with Windows 10, though, especially from the menu. WTF would I want an "XBox" account tile for when I don't own a gaming system of any kind, much less one susceptible to the "red ring of death"?

It's called advertising. They're hoping people will see that and have an uncontrollable urge to go out and buy and XBox. Because people always do what Microsoft wants.

Re:I've only encountered one problem with 10

[danomac]

Though, to be fair, print servers really should be running Linux in the first place. They're more reliable.

Well, Windows Print Server/Print Management has been very reliable in my own experience (in a domain environment.) The only time I've ever had an issue with it is when I mistakenly tried to install an HP printer CD instead of just downloading the basic driver from HP's site. Never again...

Re:I've only encountered one problem with 10

[msobkow]

The printer printed just fine from Windows itself, so I don't believe it's a driver problem. I think they've "tweaked" the SMB protocol again.

File shares mount correctly from Linux, but printer shares don't work for me.

It may well be that they didn't migrate the printer share because the new protocol is incompatible with the old.

Re:I've only encountered one problem with 10

[tannhaus]

"WTF would I want an "XBox" account tile for when I don't own a gaming system of any kind, much less one susceptible to the "red ring of death"? "

That was some releases of the Xbox 360. The current Xbox console is the Xbox One, which has no problems of the sort. The app is so you can interact with your Xbox One account and even connect to the console and stream Xbox One games so you can play them on your Windows 10 box.

That being said, you do know that you can right click on those tiles, uninstall the programs or unpin them from start, right?

Re:I've only encountered one problem with 10

[msobkow]

a.k.a. disabling and removing crapware

Re:I've only encountered one problem with 10

[nnull]

Because the big manufacturers wanted you to buy a new printer again.

Re:I've only encountered one problem with 10

[sabbede]

The Xbox thing seems silly, but MS bundled a bunch of entertainment stuff under it. I think...

I ran into network printer troubles too though. In my case, it's that Edge is too sandboxed to interact with a popup from the printer's driver that asks for the user's print code.

Re:I've only encountered one problem with 10

[sabbede]

AVG needs to reinstall itself after you upgrade. It should have told you once the upgrade was complete.

Re:I've only encountered one problem with 10

[sabbede]

SMB has been upgraded, but it should be 100% backwards compatible. MS tightened security for it though, and that seems to be causing people problems with some network shares. Try this: https://www.schkerke.com/wps/2...

Re:Honestly?

[cheater512]

If game devs were smart they'd start using OpenGL more heavily so their success of their game was not tied to Microsoft's ability to not screw up a OS release.

Wanting to play a game isn't really a great reason to upgrade your operating system, especially if the downsides are fairly crippling (thinking about 7 -> 8).
It is however a smart move by Microsoft to artificially refuse to backport DirectX to previous versions.

Joke.

[Futurepower(R)]

Mod Funny.

Re:Honestly?

[drinkypoo]

As mentioned in the article, there really is no benefit to upgrading from Windows 7.

Sure there is. They're only going to be doing security maintenance on Windows 7 from now on, unless stuff is easy to bring there. There may not be performance ramifications yet, but there will be.

On the other hand, it is probably too early for it to be a good idea...

Disabling the UI

[SleepyHappyDoc]

Why do all these reviews disable the UI? This isn't a review of Windows 10, it's a review of Windows 7.

Re:Disabling the UI

[dbIII]

Why do all these reviews disable the UI?

To make it usable :(

Re:Disabling the UI

[SleepyHappyDoc]

Why does everyone assume "usable" is a synonym for "works exactly like the WIndows I am familiar with". The Windows 10 UI is perfectly usable, but not if you disable it before giving it a chance. This guy shut it all off on page one! Why review a new OS when all you're going to do is remove all the new features?

It's like Phoronix trying to review Ubuntu by immediately uninstalling Unity and replacing it with KDE. That might be a fantastic idea for a user, but it's gonna make for a shit review of Ubuntu.

Re:Disabling the UI

[dbIII]

Why does everyone assume "usable" is a synonym for "works exactly like the WIndows I am familiar with"

Because Win8 with hidden offscreen controls may have sounded "fun" to a marketing guy on cocaine but rendered the thing not usable without strenuous workarounds and guesswork.
eg. Get to "Services" by a right click on desktop to being up screen resolution, then click in the "control panel" name in the location bar, then go to "Admin tools" then "Services". That's many times quicker than doing a search (once you have found the offscreen control - how fucking stupid?) and direct access via the windows menu has completely gone. Or you could remember a pile of key shortcuts - maybe we need to bring keyboard templates back as was used in the WordPerfect for MSDOS days?

IMHO it is a broken UI for anything more than casual use after somebody else (who has had to steer through the frustrating bullshit) has set it up for you. That is theoretically fine in a static environment where you have MS Word 2013 forever, and only use that, email and a web browser but that is going to fail the reality test in a year or two when the user is going to need other software and need some things changed. We've spent so many years going from a simple glass typewriter idea to a device with many uses to be able to go back to something limited to a very small number of choices presented in a very limited GUI. It is a huge step backwards. Even my 5+ year old phone has more applications than could be readably represented on the "Metro" GUI, let alone a desktop computer.

Re:Disabling the UI

[dcw3]

This guy shut it all off on page one! Why review a new OS when all you're going to do is remove all the new features?

Features? You mean like all the Bittorrent, or the XBox stuff, or the send MS all your data? Or maybe it was Edge, which won't allow me to VPN into work.

Been using it for a week now, and honestly don't see a single improvement.

Re:Disabling the UI

[SleepyHappyDoc]

No, I actually meant this Live Tiles, and replacing the Start with Classic Shell. That's what a lot of people did (hell, that's what I did!), but it's not what a review should do.

Re:Disabling the UI

[PRMan]

Because Windows 7 is great. People want Windows 10 to be as close to perfect as possible.

Re:Disabling the UI

[dbIII]

Your list of several convoluted methods makes my point - mine is just another to add to the your list of consequences of a removed start menu and no easy access to "control panel" any more.

Re:Disabling the UI

[dbIII]

Yes, the live tiles just told me that some woman lost 11 pounds due to some simple trick - WTF is that shit doing on a computer supposed to be used in a workplace?
To make it usable instead of a distraction there is a relatively plain and ordinary desktop GUI that it can be switched to.

Ugliest upgrade yet

[Anonymous Coward]

This was the ugliest upgrade yet for me in my Windows career. The upgrade knocked out my internal trackpad. The cursor worked for a few seconds after login, then disappears. I'm not alone, users from various manufacturers are reporting this all over the place. How in the name of fuck did they screw this up so bad? It's 2015, why am I having mouse driver problems?! It works fine in Mint. It worked fine in 7. It clearly works before something is loaded. Well it took a week, A WEEK, to issue a new driver. Good fucking Lord. We were better off when mice were detachable and the driver came on a goddamn floppy disk, because at least a new release of Windows would either be compatible with the old driver or include the driver!

Re:Honestly?

[Anonymous Coward]

Wanting to play a game isn't really a great reason to upgrade your operating system

Of course it is, running programs is the primary purpose of an operating system.

especially if the downsides are fairly crippling (thinking about 7 -> 8).

What exactly was "crippling" about 8? Sure the workflows were different but outside of the preference to launch your applications from the start menu rather than any other way of doing it what was so problematic that affected you so much?

I reinstalled a laptop the other day

[rrohbeck]

The disk drive was acting up and it was a very old Win7 installation. So I replaced the disk, installed Debian jessie with KDE and Win7 in a VM. Everything is soo snappy now and I don't have to deal with all the Win8/10 drama. Yay. But I'm not a gamer obviously.

Win10 with Classic Shell

[sl149q]

Windows 10 with Classic Shell is an even better Windows 7 than Windows 8.1 with Classic Shell. Both are a better Windows 7 than Windows 7.

I did give the Windows 10 "start menu" a bit more of a try out than the Windows 8 one. A full ten minutes (nine minutes longer!) Then installed Classic Shell and got back to work.

Re:Honestly?

[CharlieG]

One major advantage over 7 (although 8.1 had it - but who wanted 8.1)
Multiple magnification settings

Win7 allowed ONE windows magnification setting for all screens (100%, 125%, 150%). Win10 allows you to set it per screen. Useful if you have one High DPI screen (my laptop) and one standard DPI - the second monitor in my case.

Other than that? No huge difference. Some things are faster (just as they were in 8.x). The first machine I upgraded was on 8.x, and couldn't wait to get rid of that pig. Then I upgraded the laptop that has the high DPI screen, but right now, my main boxes are still on Win7...

Re:Honestly?

[arglebargle_xiv]

From TFA:

Windows 8 era Start Menu replacement apps like ClassicShell and Start8 seem to retained perfect compatibility with Windows 10

With all this need to install third-party addons to undo the crap that the vendor has put in, it's almost like using Firefox.

Re:Honestly?

[arglebargle_xiv]

As mentioned in the article, there really is no benefit to upgrading from Windows 7.

Sure there is. They're only going to be doing security maintenance on Windows 7 from now on

Perfect! That means they won't be able to fsck it up any more with "features" and "enhancements" ("I know, let's send all your private data to Microsoft!"), you'll just get the standard Windows that works as it should and be left in peace to run the apps you need in the way you want them.

This is how it works.

[sidevans]

Windows 3.11 - Great
Windows 95 - Rubbish
Windows 98 (SE) - Great
Windows ME/2K - Rubbish
Windows XP - Great
Windows Vista - Rubbish
Windows 7 - Great
Windows 8 - Rubbish
Windows 10 - Great

Enjoy it while its here, because it will be another 5 years before Microsoft bring out anything good!

Re:This is how it works.

[Billly Gates]

I can tell you right now WIndows 10 most certainly is NOT great! I went back to Windows 8.1 because it works ... yes with a start menu replacement it is ok. YIKES Vista was not this bad

Re:This is how it works.

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows ME/2K - Rubbish

You're seriously lumping 2K in with ME and calling it rubbish?

Exactly when did you become so clueless?

Re:This is how it works.

[operagost]

This. 2K was fantastically stable and easy to use. It just didn't have the shiny look of XP.

Re:This is how it works.

[rpstrong]

This. 2K was fantastically stable and easy to use. It just didn't have the shiny look of XP.

Or the device support (was it USB in general or just the web cams that didn't work?) But it was dead nuts stable. I used to run W98 and got into the habit of rebooting when I left for lunch or I'd see the BSOD by mid-afternoon. With W2K, I went back to leaving the PC on 24/7. Had an occasional hiccup with XP, but not enough to send me back to 2K.

Not very good at Windows, this reviewer

[RR]

First, he complained about the download. I anticipated this problem, downloaded the ISO on Windows 7 with Microsoft’s stupid downloading program, and burned a DVD/USB. Problem solved. Also, you can buy Windows 10 OEM media in stores.

Then, he complained about the updater not having a clean install option. It’s not obvious, but there’s an option somewhere in the installer to “Keep nothing.” This does a clean install.

He did not complain about tying the Windows account to a Microsoft account. It’s possible to make a local account not connected to a Live.com, and it’s more obvious how to do so than in Windows 8.

Then, he complained about the hybrid Start menu. That can be resized.

Other than that, I guess the review was okay. I liked the part about the Hi-DPI experience.

Re:Honestly?

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly. The UI is still ugly as hell (metro-ish) and too phone/tablet-oriented for a desktop. Everything is becoming an oversimplified white outline UI made for morons. Every app that comes with it is turning into one of those fugly ghetto metro-like app instead of proper Win32 software, with 10% of the features and tons of limitations. The default "privacy policy" makes it far worse than even Android + Google services (or Apple's). There's far too much stuff to disable and manually remove (OneDrive, metro apps, etc) and the menu is still very far from being as good as Classic Start menu, or even the menu from Win7. Add to that the bad driver updates that need to be blocked with a special tool, the "reboot whenever I want" updates that can't be blocked and so on...

Nope. Not upgrading anytime soon. Win 7 is here to stay for a looooong time seemingly.

Should have dived in VS 2015

[Billly Gates]

Folks one thing WIndows 10 has going for it that is very revolutionary ahead of Linux or close to be being tied are cloud and profile integration and development tools. For example I can sync my IE settings, desktop wallpaper, saved passwords, app purchases, and more from my Surface and vice versa with my desktop. OneNote and Word have the same files since it uses OneDrive by default. Yes, it is bashed here HEY MS I DO NOT WANT A HOTMAIL ACCOUNT!! but man it is nice not to sync. ... actually this functionality is crippled in Windows 10 compared to 8.1 due to meeting the release date :-(

VS 2015 can make Android, CLANG, Python, and limited Mono apps for Linux. It's code editor for VS 2016 is free and even runs on Linux if you do a google for MS Code?

Powershell has some strong features with DSC desired state configuration and different levels of security and piping objects over the dated Bash shell popular in Linux. Rumor has it MS is going to port Powershell to gnome. This will be an interesting flamewar read when it comes stable and is linked here on Slashdot :-)

Now Windows 10 at the time of this 8-9-15? SUCKS! Unstable, rushed, and unusable on my machine. It is WindowsME 2.0 as of right now. Edge does not even freaking have Chrome plugins as it was not finished. Placeholders missing in Onedrive is a killer feature as I do not want to remember where my files are saved. I just like opening Excel and selecing my file after a fresh image. Try that with Linux?

What Linux has going? A TON more hacks and tools and scripts in php and other things under the sun. I predict once Redstone 10.1 comes out by Thanksgiving and VS 2015 which is now free stabilizes it will be a very competitive system to Linux for a lot of users.

Re:Should have dived in VS 2015

[dbIII]

very revolutionary ahead of Linux ... are cloud and profile integration

The network is the computer!
In case you've never heard that, it was a Sun slogan relating to *nix networking in the 1990s.
To be more up to date there is current stuff like "owncloud", which effectively lets you run your own "dropbox" style thing without having to deal with third parties unless you want to.

Re:Should have dived in VS 2015

[drinkypoo]

For example I can sync my IE settings, desktop wallpaper, saved passwords, app purchases, and more from my Surface and vice versa with my desktop.

So? You can do that stuff between Linux boxes, too. You just have to know magical incantations for some of it :)

Re:Should have dived in VS 2015

[serviscope_minor]

For example I can sync my IE settings, desktop wallpaper, saved passwords, app purchases, and more from my Surface and vice versa with my desktop.

Any settings I wanted to keep, I've kept in version control for years. First CVS, then years ago I switched to git. Works For Me (tm).

VS 2015 can make Android, CLANG, Python, and limited Mono apps for Linux. It's code editor for VS 2016 is free and even runs on Linux if you do a google for MS Code?

Is that a question? GCC can also make Windows programs from Linux. In fact, I have a project where I distribute both Windows and Linux executables (well, DLLs, it's a plugin). All compiled on Linux using GCC, with the Windows part using the MinGW cross tools.

Powershell has some strong features with DSC desired state configuration and different levels of security and piping objects over the dated Bash shell popular in Linux. Rumor has it MS is going to port Powershell to gnome. This will be an interesting flamewar read when it comes stable and is linked here on Slashdot :-)

I hear that PowerShell is a better scripting language than BASH, but a worse user interface.

Re:Honestly?

[amiga3D]

In other words....it's stable. That's actually a great reason to stay with 7. As with almost any OS it's best to wait a while to upgrade because it's almost always going to be screwy at first. The exception being Vista which sucked so hard almost anything would be better.

Re:Honestly?

[Anonymous Coward]

That doesn't matter at all. Games aren't the main thing, and they're the easiest thing to "replace" with a console, if that's the only thing stopping you. The real problem is business/CAD/graphics software and the like. The vast majority only runs on Windows. A tiny minority also run on OS X (Adobe products mainly) and basically nothing runs on Linux. That's the real show stopper, and why I'm stuck using Windows, even if it's quickly becoming a huge turd. Win 8.x sucked hard and so far 10 isn't any better...

Minor upgrade if you only look skin deep.

[Gumbercules!!]

*Windows 8* was a significant upgrade over Windows 7 - and Windows 10 more so. However, if you only care about start menus and icons, then, no, there's nothing to see here.

I don't recall, however, Windows 7 having native NIC teaming built in, including on dissimilar connection types (i.e. natively team wifi and NIC). I don't recall Windows 7 having a very powerful Hypervisor built in, natively. I don't recall Windows 7 having SMB3. I don't recall Windows 7 having native support for software defined storage and software defined networks. I don't recall Windows 7 supported RFS. The list goes on, and on.

But no, clearly Windows 10 is a very small upgrade over Windows 7.... if the only thing you ever look at is the f*cking start menu. I thought this was supposed to be a tech site? Where people discussed the real technology in things - not just how shiny they are? Did I wind up a Daring Fireball, by mistake??

Re:Minor upgrade if you only look skin deep.

[philmarcracken]

None of those additions were harder to access from the old UI nor easier from the new one. And most people just play games and shitpost on windows.

Re:Minor upgrade if you only look skin deep.

[bspus]

These are important features on servers, which is why server2012 (and r2) were significant upgrades to 2008 r2

But for the average user, and even power user (the desktops of professional admins not included) NIC teaming and software defined networks mean nothing.
Hyper-V is only included on Pro (which is what average users who pay for their OS dont have) and even if they did have it would probably not care.
Nor would they care what protocol is used for their file shares so long as it works.
RFS (if you mean ReFS as I presume) might be the only feature of importance, again a server 2012 r2 feature (not windows 8/8.1) and only barely used since its still under development.

So for most users the only substantial difference is the slightly better speed, more recent driverbase (not really much to do with direct OS development) and the much worse UI.
I can get over the UI but it baffles me why I have to do so on an otherwise perfectly good evolutionary upgrade

Re:Minor upgrade if you only look skin deep.

[Gumbercules!!]

Hyper-V on Windows 7 is a very different beast, as it was version 2. It was by no means a seriously powerful tool. Hyper-V 3 is a different story. It's significantly more powerful and feature rich. Which is why, and I'll help you with the comprehension on this one, I said " having a very powerful Hypervisor built in". See those key words, there, "champ"?

Re:Honestly?

[amiga3D]

All our boxes at work are still on 7 and we're hoping they stay there. The big upgrade to Vista years back drove the IT people to their knees. They struggled endlessly to keep boxes that had been stable and working smooth before the upgrade to stay up and running for more than a few mere hours without locking up. When 7 became available it put everything right but we still remember how bad it was. At one time my shop had 13 machines and if 5 of them were working it was a good day.

Gnome and KDE were doing so well

[ras]

I was so chuffed when Gnome and KDE beat Windows at its own game. For years they had been lagging behind Microsoft, mostly mimicking the look and feel of Windows. KDE 4.0 gave us a hint of what was to come - it was a mess. With Gnome 3 we had clearly pulled ahead of Microsoft, producing a complete clusterfuck of an interface in long before Microsoft got their own clusterfuck to the market with Windows 8. Finally, we were setting the pace and Microsoft was following!

But things move quickly, and open source is falling behind again. Right now we are in the "ouch! that hurt phase" and fixing the mess created by the last fad. Microsoft has pared down the Vista "wow, we virtualised the 3D pipeline so everyone wants to watch ponies dancing on a spinning Icosahedron while their windows open" to something that almost always runs faster than Gnome and KDE in Windows 10. In the mean time people who preferred to use Gnome to get shit done rather than watch ponies retreated to Gnome flashback, or whatever it is called today. But, sigh, in a flash of recent inspiration Gnome made flashback depend on the 3D graphics as well, meaning you can no longer debug someones desktop using a frame buffer protocol like VNC, effectively ensuring that in some cases it isn't possible to get any work done with it, at all. Just fucking wonderful Gnome.

Unlike poor Windows users, Linux is all about choice, and so putting up with a window manager that removed features with with each iteration while managing to run slower at the same time (awesome effort, boys!) is some ways my own fault. But the reality is the choosing the right thing from the many choices Linux offers you is hard work, hard work that Windows users are spared. I tend to compensate by sticking like deranged limpet to what I used yesterday. Kudo's to Gnome I guess, for finding a way to force me off my rock.

Now I have a new rock: LXDE. While it may be true Microsoft has moved faster than KDE and Gnome to produce something todays GUI fashion Nazi's just love, if paired down, fast, and just get out of my fucking way is the benchmark, LXDE entered that race long before Microsoft knew even existed, and they now beat Microsoft at it hands down. Saying Windows 10 beats Gnome and KDE in speed as this review does is just plain dumb. Gnome and KDE haven't yet twigged they event that think they are competing in was abandoned last year, at the latest. Microsoft, to their credit did twig, and now they have Windows 10.

Re:Honestly?

[epyT-R]

From win7 to win 8?
1. loss of custom window metric adjustments, font sizes, and colors
2. loss of classic desktop (eg win2k/xp)
3. forced color schemes (2:1 brightness ratio prevented darker configurations)
4. fullscreen start menu was distracting and irritating to use compared to a simple menu.
5. dwm locked window updates to 60hz (win8.0, was fixed later)
6. dwm broke a ton of easily fixed backward compatibility with programs that used ddraw to change modes etc.
7. metro apps were (and still are) useless on the desktop. ugly and clunky too
8. unified search was compromised, forcing users to go back to dir filename /a/s in a command prompt
9. This is a big one for me: removed technical information in stop errors. If stop errors prevent the system from booting, it makes diagnosis a lot harder.
10. two control panels. with windows 10, it's worse because some needed options for the desktop are in one while others are in the 'classic' vista era panel.

Re:More responsive than Gnome and KDE

[jones_supa]

This is actually a big deficiency for Linux. All of the big desktops (GNOME, KDE, Unity) are really choppy and laggy.

Another Linux User's Perspective

[tannhaus]

I've been a linux user since 1997, except for a couple of years when I ran OS X (10.5-10.6). I started out on Redhat (a couple of weeks with slackware before that, but too short a time to count), then went to OpenSuse after the second Fedora release and migrated to Linux Mint 17.1 because I found too many annoying bugs in the most recent release of OpenSuse. I'm strictly a desktop user and was waiting for the rise of the Linux desktop like everyone else, but always kept a version of Windows on dual boot because A. It usually came with the machine and B. "just in case".

Yesterday, I installed Grub Customizer and switched my default boot to Windows 10. It is, to me, the best version of Windows they've managed to come out with. I happen to love the start menu. I did away with all my icons I normally put on the desktop and, instead, they reside in the start menu. The privacy issues seem to be no better nor worse than you get from Apple, but the OS seems to finally be as good as what you'd get from Apple.

I have to say... I've gotten sick, over the years, of Linux being treated like the red-headed stepchild when it comes to drivers, software and websites. But, just as importantly, I've grown sick of the bugs that continually creep up in the desktop experience. Dilbert stops showing up on the KDE comic applet....search all around...no fixes seem to work....gotta live with it. Can't find an mp3 player that really seems to work, catalog my library, manage the playlists and mp3s on my samsung s3 etc. without hanging or outright crashing... It's the bugs like that which seem to really be in your face on a near daily basis....and they don't seem to be fixed. It's much more exciting to add features than hunt down bugs. I understand that. Some will say that, if I don't like the bugs, then fix them myself. But, I don't want an OS I have to learn to code and help out projects just to make something I can use.... I'm a single parent raising a 7 year old. I just want something I can use and that fits my needs....

Linux Mint has been, by far, the most polished and professional desktop experience I've had in a while. That could be because they've stayed with the same release of Ubuntu underlying it for the last couple of releases. Whatever the reason, I've still found a more pleasing desktop experience in Windows 10.

Re:Another Linux User's Perspective

[rainmaestro]

I've had a somewhat similar experience.

Linux was my full-time OS starting in 2002 (Gentoo for about 8 years, then bouncing between Fedora, Mint and Crunchbang). About four months ago I switched my main PC to Windows 7. I actually like it, enough to keep using it. When my laptop finally needed replacing, I went with an SP3 which has been quite nice (Windows 8's interface actually makes sense on a tablet whereas I hate it on desktops/laptops).

Linux-the-OS is still mostly nice. Linux-the-userland reached its zenith about four years ago and has been declining in quality ever since. I found myself spending more and more time dealing with issues stemming from buggy applications and shoddy drivers, enough that it felt like I was back in 2008 again. NetworkManager loses all my VPN passwords, my USB headset doesn't work properly, video driver quality is getting worse instead of better, Flash somehow manages to keep getting worse, even though you'd think that wouldn't be possible at this point, etc.

Windows 7, meanwhile, just works. The biggest gripe I've had so far is the continued lack of support in Explorer for long paths, which causes issues for my nodejs projects (given that their module dependency system has all the sophistication of a high school midterm project). I can work around that easily enough, though. I'm not a twenty-something with time to kill anymore, I can't spend three days tracking down why my USB headset stops outputting sound when the system volume drops below 20% (unless I launch Virtualbox, at which point it magically works again). I like tinkering when time permits, but nowadays I want my system to just work. Linux doesn't do that right now. I still love the OS, but it is no longer practical for me to use it.

Re:Another Linux User's Perspective

[mvdwege]

Really, this playbook is getting old: "I used Linux since Slackware, but I installed the latest Windows, and it is the best thing since sliced bread!".

Go back to your fucking PR manager and tell them you are becoming too transparent to succesfully astroturf. Or better, fuck off back to Redmond and don't come back.

Re:Another Linux User's Perspective

[strikethree]

Oddly, my experiences generally mirror yours: Early Slackware/Redhat user, moved to OS X, now on Linux Mint 17. About the only difference is Gentoo and Linux From Scratch.

I finally decided to try Windows 10 this weekend. I downloaded the ISO with their tool first, and then decided to try the "upgrade" route. Of course, none of my games work any more. d3dx9.dll (?) is the faulting module after the upgrade. I would hope a clean install would get rid of this issue since the DX9 installer refuses to run on Windows 10. I have to wonder what other latent bugs are left lying about by leaving old dlls in place.

Regardless of all of this, it was as bad as I feared. The whole time I was using Windows 10, I felt like my files were being constantly monitored and my communications and passwords were being slurped up. It felt creepy as hell. I turned off the ability for it to use my webcam and microphone but I do not trust that it is not monitoring all of the time anyways.

Google might be creepy but they are not inside of my computer. This is a whole new level of creepiness... rather like sitting down to take a shit in front of a large audience in a stadium. Or maybe like those old World War 2 movies, trying to escape from the concentration camp while sirens are going off and spotlights are searching for you, trying to stay out of the spotlights. I don't really know, but I could not escape the feeling. It was terrible. Windows 10 is utterly dead to me regardless of the bad upgrade experience. That could like be resolved through a clean install, which is always recommended anyways. No, the real problem is the feeling of utter distrust and exposure. The creepy feeling of constantly being monitored.

I can get a lot of games working on Linux... everything else, Linux is better at so why would I choose Microsoft Windows any more?

Re:Another Linux User's Perspective

[umafuckit]

I don't get it. You switched to windows 10 from Linux because you like the start menu better?

Re:Another Linux User's Perspective

[Viol8]

"my USB headset doesn't work properly,"

Who the fuck wastes a USB port on a headset? You never head of headphone and mic jacks?

Re:Another Linux User's Perspective

[tannhaus]

This is where reading comprehension comes in. I offered several reasons. As a matter of fact, the whole third paragraph was full of reasons and examples that had nothing to do with the start menu.

Re:Another Linux User's Perspective

[tannhaus]

Ok... Without even delving into the dll issue, I want to point something out:

"I finally decided to try Windows 10 this weekend. I downloaded the ISO with their tool first, and then decided to try the "upgrade" route. Of course, none of my games work any more."

I'd be willing to bet none of those games work in linux, either. That leaves us with two take-aways:

1. You're already a considerable user of Windows, because you've amassed a game library
2. You don't hold it against Linux, as an OS, that it can't play your games.

So, that leaves a double standard where you lower your expectations for Linux, but can't use it as your only OS because it does not fulfill your needs.If you were to look at both, without bias, It seems Linux is the one you'd be railing against.

As far as the privacy issues, there have been many articles that walk through what those privacy settings mean and how to turn them off. Treat it just like you would when you have to hunt down things about Linux online and figure out what to do.

Re:Another Linux User's Perspective

[rainmaestro]

Yeah, god forbid I waste one of my 10 USB ports on something. Better save it for, umm, what exactly?

Yes, I'm familiar with 3.5mm plugs, that's what my speakers are plugged into. They don't have a plug to chain a headset, so I use a USB headset instead of having to swap cables.

Re:Another Linux User's Perspective

[rainmaestro]

Mistype, should have been 2.5mm

Re:Another Linux User's Perspective

[strikethree]

I am unsure why you have taken a combative tone towards me. You are not going to "prove" anything.

1. You're already a considerable user of Windows, because you've amassed a game library

Erm, yeah. I have been using Windows since Windows 95. I do have some experience with Windows 3 and MS-DOS, but I was mostly using my Amiga at that time. I went to XP 64 as soon as it was available. I always assumed that only Richard Stallman only ever used one OS.

2. You don't hold it against Linux, as an OS, that it can't play your games.

The only game I have right now that I can't get to work under Linux is GTA V. It may work, I have not tried and it is not worth the effort. I doubt it does work.

But that was NOT the point I was making about the DLL. The point I was making is that if you do decide to "upgrade" to Windows 10, then for fuck's sake, do a clean install. You may have issues if you do not... so I will ignore the mini-rant about double standards.

As far as the privacy issues, there have been many articles that walk through what those privacy settings mean and how to turn them off.

I have read how to turn them "off". Many of those suggestions were made right here on Slashdot; however, I was saying that I do not trust that they are actually turned off and that there may be further spying measures that none of us are aware of that may not even be able to be turned off. In other words, I do not trust the operating system. Spin that how you will.

Re:Another Linux User's Perspective

[strikethree]

If you want a technical analysis, go to some benchmarking site. I shared what Windows 10 felt like from my perspective. It felt creepy. The creepiness overshadowed every other aspect of using the system; therefore, I have no opinion on live tiles or did not mention how it was impossible to tell where one window ended and another began or which controls belonged to which window because there are no borders, just outlines.

Re: Another Linux User's Perspective

[tannhaus]

It's not a combative tone. I was pointing out what you had said and the issues....that you have deficiencies in linux that you're compensating for by using windows alongside it.

I don't play games on the pc. I have an Xbox One and a PS3 for that. So, I don't run into the game problems even though that particular dll issue seems to be something that happens upon upgrade for some people from version to version and is able to be fixed (sorta like the issues they put in the distro's readme file).

That being said, even though I had windows sitting there "just in case", I'd go months without booting into it. I would kick the tires for a couple of days when an upgrade came out, but that was the extent of it.

Yes, I've run into your missing dll problem several times in linux....missing package dependency or missing file in a package... but it seems like things are just way too buggy in general on the desktop and, as the other commenter noted, they're getting worse over the years.

As far as turning off things not actually turning them off, that would be a huge legal liability for any company to do.

Re:Another Linux User's Perspective

[cavebison]

> I did away with all my icons I normally put on the desktop and, instead, they reside in the start menu.

Wow. I've been doing this since Windows XP.

Also, once you arrange XP's menu in a keyboard-friendly fashion, it acts much like Windows 7's search box on the Start menu... except faster, since you only need to hit the first key of each menu item.

I usually have "Quick" menu, at the top level of Start, with common programs in it, like Photoshop. Whereas, in Windows 7, I have to type "pho" or something, and wait for results, in XP it is simply "QP" (quick -> photoshop) and up she comes.

I'm buying an SSD tomorrow, which will basically make this old XP laptop zoom, and I won't even have to worry about the 4GB RAM limit anymore, since swapping on SSD is pretty quick.

Yep I love my XP and you can prise it from my cold, dead fingers. :)

Re: Another Linux User's Perspective

[tannhaus]

See..even though you're getting defensive and backtracking (games becomes really one game), it remains that you really can't talk about how great linux is because you yourself are in the position of having to use Windows to compensate for things you cannot do in linux.

As far as your situation: games... Can you play games in linux? Sure. Can you play all the games you'd like? Not at all. Can you install the latest video card and have it supported? Probably not. If it is supported, will the support and performance be equal to what you get in windows? Most likely not.

Of course, that doesn't go into the other desktop issues people run into...bugs, other driver issues, etc. But it is a similar issue

Re: Another Linux User's Perspective

[tannhaus]

I even have desktop icons in linux. I just always liked them. Now, with Windows 10, I can make any shortcut a tile, move them around, group them and name the groups...

So I thought "HEY! This is nice..." and started using it. I don't have to remember anything. ..just hit start and I can browse through all of them

Re: Another Linux User's Perspective

[tannhaus]

It doesn't break backwards compatibility. What he mentioned seems to be an issue a few people experienced in the last upgrade as well and is fixable.

But, the bigger issue is: why are you buying windows games to start with? Thr answer to that is: because they run better in windows or aren't available in linux when I want to buy them.

Ok...then that's a mark against linux. It also means you're in windows every time you want to play these games...and were planning on being in windows. That is why it was an option. So, linux is not truly fulfilling your needs as an OS.

Re: Another Linux User's Perspective

[strikethree]

Defensive and backtracking? WTF dude? Are you for real? What is with the attacks? Honestly, I am beginning to wonder if I have ran across a shill for Microsoft.

I have constantly used multiple operating systems after I was forced to give up my Commodore Amiga. There have been extended periods where my primary operating system was Linux, OpenBSD, OS X,or Windows.

Extended use of Slackware back in the late 90s because it was stable and had true 32 bit multi-tasking. It also reminded me of the SunOS systems that my friend let me use from his university.

Extended use of Linux From Scratch in the early 2000s because Slackware was not perfect. I alternated it with OpenBSD because I was working with a bunch of pen testers who preferred OpenBSD. Linux From Scratch was the most satisfying, customized, and efficient system I have ever used.

Mid 2000s I found out about Gentoo. Almost as good as Linux From Scratch but far more maintainable. IIRC, it was around 2008 this distro took a severe nosedive.

From 2008ish to early 2015, I mostly used Windows only. I tried Ubuntu once but my mouse and keyboard kept locking up. It was apparently some bug that had been around for years.

A few years ago, people started talking about Linux Mint so I decided to try it out. I was not terribly impressed so Windows stayed my main operating system.

I bought a laptop two years ago. It had Windows 8 on it. It got a virus through the preinstalled flash player before I could even finish patching it. Less than 4 hours after buying it, I nuked it and threw Arch Linux on it. Arch is still on that laptop right now.

I tried Linux Mint again earlier this year since I wanted to try the whole Steam on Linux thing. I wanted to try Cinnamon since KDE always has some odd bugs. Nothing show stopping but always something annoying. The performance of Cinnamon was not acceptable when playing games so it sat on an alternate partition for a few months, occasionally being booted up.

Then, about a month or so ago, they released Linux Mint 17.2 Rafaela. They had made some significant performance improvements in Cinnamon and my games worked fine. I was excited and kept booting into Linux Mint. I especially liked Cinnamon because of the High-DPI setting. I have a 4k monitor and Windows 7 just could not be adjusted to look good.

Cue the release of Windows 10. Looks good on a 4k monitor, just like Cinnamon already did, but then I can't shake the feeling that none of my files or activities are private.

So here I sit in Linux Mint 17.2 having a conversation with someone who appears to be quite hostile. The only "bug" that I am experiencing is that whenever I place the menu bar at the top, I get weird behavior. The only thing I lack that I want is to put the menu bar on the side. The left side. My GTX 980 card works fine. The only newer card is a GTX 980ti.

I am having no issues or regrets moving entirely to Linux at this point. Nothing I have said is contradictory or backtracking. The only "positive" thing I am missing out on is the ability to play Grand Theft Auto V. Compared to getting my privacy back, that is an extremely small price to pay.

Care to play a game?

Re:Honestly?

[dimeglio]

I'm sure there's a theme/skin/ricing that makes Windows 7 look and perform just like Windows 10. So you can have the look and feel in case you have an urge to upgrade.

Re:Honestly?

[ConceptJunkie]

That's a good list of what was awful about Windows 8, and absolutely none of that was needed, or wanted by users.

It seems to me most of the changes in Windows these days are solely to serve Microsoft's purposes and completely ignore the benefits or disadvantages for users. I'm not talking about improvements or whatever under the covers, if performance or robustness is improved, but changes in functionality, and especially UI. None of it seems gears towards making Windows better or easier to use.

Re:Honestly?

[Joce640k]

If the OpenGL team were on the ball

That's a pretty big "if".

This is the team that actively fought against being able to use OpenGL ES on desktop machines.

(facepalm)

Re:Honestly?

[dbIII]

Win10 allows you to set it per screen.

Sounds good, multi-monitor even on win7 sucks in many ways so an effort to improve it in MS Windows is good to see. It's sad that the Matrox add-on for Win2k was so much better for multi-screen support than Win7 and Win8 has built in so many years later. Having a window vanish because it wants to go on a monitor that is not present is annoying as hell. Having monitors present but not in use after a reboot is the same.

Re: Honestly?

[Joce640k]

Yep. OpenGL is pretty shit, specially on OS X.

There's nothing wrong with OpenGL. If it's shit on OS then look to the drivers.

OpenGL ES was the one chance they had to make a clean start and save OpenGL (IMHO). The original OpenGL had become a maze of extensions and add-on functions.

They blew it. They actually didn't want people to use OpenGL ES on desktops, they wanted us to use one API for desktops and another, different one for mobile devices. Wasn't the whole point of OpenGL to be cross-platform?

PS: And how exactly were we supposed to develop for OpenGL ES when it doesn't run on desktops? Do all the coding on our phones? LOL!

Re:More responsive than Gnome and KDE

[dbIII]

The funny thing is the Wayland people use the poor coding in recent gnome and kde to make statements about X speed and how X is just wastefully sending bitmaps all over the place. You'll notice they say "modern X" all the time so that they have the low bar of the new gnome to reach and not old versions that didn't wastefully send bitmaps all over the place.
Current enlightenment, fluxbox, blackbox, XFCE etc are very snappy on just about any desktop less than a decade old - so long as you don't try to start up something like a recent "gedit" that is so slow to start that even "libreoffice" can get going from scratch in a similar time (how did the gnome people mess that up so badly?).

Developer learning curve + ageism

[dbIII]

From watching it over the years it looks like a cycle of losing talent every few years and the newbies learning on the job with the dud versions.

Re:Honestly?

[gfxguy]

I do most of my work on Linux, but have to use windows occasionally. Last year I upgraded my computer for the first time in like 10 years, and decided to skip 7 and go to 8.1 for the Windows booting. So, OK, I don't use it a lot - but after installing classic shell and having it boot straight to the desktop, I don't see what all the whining is about. Every time I upgrade or install Linux, I have to customize it to my liking, too, so it's a bit annoying when I hear that as a complaint from Linux users about windows. I'm glad I get to mostly use Linux, but I didn't see what all the fuss was about - plus it had better support for my ssd and, yes, it seems to run better/be more responsive than Windows 7 or XP.

I've heard a couple of legitimate complaints from power users, but by and large what I see is a bunch of people essentially complaining it's not exactly like it was before.

Re:Honestly?

[gfxguy]

Ok, so maybe classic shell should have been a default, but I have to customize Linux, too. So after installing classic shell I don't see the "bad UI" complaint. I may not use Windows all that much, but I've had no problems with either 8 or 8.1 after installing classic shell and having it log in directly to the desktop instead of tiles.

From a OSX Users Perspective in Academia

[williamyf]

At work or Academia, I had used all there is to use. DOS, Windows, Solaris, HP-UX, Sinix, VMS, Linux, FreeBSD...

At home, it was DOS (3.2, 3.3, 5.0, 6.22) Windows (WFW 3.11, 95, 98, NT4, 2000, XP, Vista) all the way (with a brief innuendo with Warp), until Early 2009, when I declared my switchover to MAC Successful.

Now, Apple forced my hand by not releasing Win7 Drivers for the 2015 13"Air... So, between having a ragtag fleet of machines on Win732, Win764 and Win8.1 64, I'll go 10 all the way.

The fact that I can get Windows 10 Working on a Toshiba Satellite A123 ** (My last windows machine), with an Xpress200m Chipset whose graphics part is based on a chip (R300) released in Aug. 2002, and a processor whose architecture (Yonah T2080) was released on 2006 speaks volumes at the effort microsoft has put in preserving compatibility AND make the OS perform better.

On the same resources, Win 8 will perform better than 7 and Win 10 will outperform them both. It has actually breathed new life into the old machine.

What really interest me is the new powers under the hood. Better performance (as said before), Edge, better included antivirus and security tools, DX12, etc, etc, etc.

Maybe things moved around a lot from what I remember, but is in no way as bad as windows 8, were I had to rip of the virtual machine due to the hotcorners, and wanted to pull my hair everytime I had to use a Win8 machine from a friend without a shell replacement. Besides, if one does not like the interface, one can change it (as they said in the TFA, Classic Shell works like a charm, and I am sure there will be other customization apps in no time), if they removed mediaplayer, there is MithTV or VLC, the app store is empty, so what, is not like I forgot how to download an exe or a msi file...

But then again, I use this only for some games (currently Batman Arkam Origins, and anything that strikes my fancy that Steam has not ported to Apple yet) on bootcamp, and via VirtualBox on raw partition for Visio and Project.

The fact that the upgrade is free sweetens and seals the deal (if I had to pay for it, or had to go through the hoops of the university to get the license key, well....). Yes, there are privacy concerns, and I will deal with them, the same way I dealt with iCloud and all of Apple's privacy invasions, I have the knowledge to do so, and I can relay on my fellow techies when my knowledge fails me.

For me is a welcome upgrade, one that will bring homogeneity to my fleet, along with better performance accross the board, and I am recommending all non-techie friends to upgrade (after updating FW, maxing RAM and putting an SSD, of course), especially from Windows XP. Besides, I already issued them a stern Warning. After march 2016, I'll only answer questions about Win10 or "El Capitan". That will drastically cut the amount of free tech support I must do... ;-)

Welcome Windows 10, you may not warrant a rolling stones theme song, but your low-key entry will make many lives easier...

Suerte a todos y feliz dia.

** Yes, after firmware updates, maxed RAM to 2GB, and put a SATA3 64GB SSD on the puny SATA1 interface of the Xpress200M

PS: For what is worth, I have CrunchBang++ for basic Linux demos to my students in the Toshiba (the machine I carry around in mass transport to class, because, if they mug me, I'll not miss it), and have A few CentOS and Oracle Linux machines for, you know, stuff...

Re:From a OSX Users Perspective in Academia

[armanox]

Funny, I found WIndows 10 to be completely unusable on my Toshiba A105 (with an upgraded HDD and 2GB of RAM). DWM and Windows Defender kept the CPU busy at all times. Windows 7 and Windows 8 ran smoothly on this laptop (but not as good as XP).

Re:From a OSX Users Perspective in Academia

[williamyf]

Funny, I found WIndows 10 to be completely unusable on my Toshiba A105 (with an upgraded HDD and 2GB of RAM). DWM and Windows Defender kept the CPU busy at all times. Windows 7 and Windows 8 ran smoothly on this laptop (but not as good as XP).

Try to go to tosh's support site and download the latest drivers (particularly video, as DWM is the Desktop Window Manager) available there (they may be labeled as Win7, that was my case). If there is a firmware (i.e. bios) patch, get that as well.

Apply the BIOS patch first, then the video drivers. Then let Windows update the drivers. Tosh has the nasty habit of blocking generic drivers from providers. While in 7, I had to use drivers unlocked by the friends on "Mobility.Dot.Net" but in Win10 that is frowned upon. See if that helps with the problems.

As per the Windows Defender, I read you upgraded the HDD, but is still an HDD, not an SSD. Anyhow, use Process Manager to lower the priority of windows defender and let it do its work. While at it, schedule it to scan your machine at lunch or at night.

It would also be wise, after windows defender is done, do a "online scan" with some tool such as "TrendMicro HouseCall"

Best of luck, and let me know when and how you fixed it.

Suerte y feliz dia.

Re:Honestly?

[pslytely psycho]

"It is however a smart move by Microsoft to artificially refuse to backport DirectX to previous versions."

Would an older system even run the newer DirectX? I thought the underlying system architecture had changed enough that it simply couldn't be backported, especially after Win8?

(I am aware that DirectX 11.1 was partially backported to Win7 but not 11.2)

Re:Honestly?

[plover]

You missed a few biggies.
11. Requiring mouse users to use invisible gestures to accomplish some tasks, and ignoring inherent usability differences between tablet users and desktop users.
12. The schizophrenic split between Metro and the desktop extended far beyond the two control panels. Every app remained different.
13. Whatever human interface guidelines were used for Metro were 'fail'. Metro apps still have no consistency in how you access settings or access other features. Mail hides the "sync" button behind a three ... menu, when it was one of the most used features. Some apps have preferences in the up swipe app menu, others have them in the right swipe system menu.

And 10 is no picnic of usability, either. They've tried to unify Metro and Windows, but it's still awkward feeling. Some Metro apps are hard coded to expect the whole screen, not some reduced drawing area shortened by a task bar. The Metro division bar is capricious and untrustworthy. The start menu still covers the entire screen with a handful of tiles; the giant flat list of apps is still hiding and is still lacking folders, and search only helps if you remember the name of an app, not just the task it does. (Example: searching for 'home' does not identify "Grasshopper", a home automation app.) 10 may be more usable than 8, but it's still a whole shit-ton worse than Windows 7.

The problem is that while Metro may have been a good idea on its own, it was not a good idea to mix it with Windows. And Microsoft knew they wouldn't sell 10 copies of a Metro-only platform (but they tried anyway, unfortunately for the 8 people who bought RT) all because some idiot Monkey-Boy deluded himself into believing millions of people were just waiting for Microsoft to save the day with Windows Phone so they could throw away their awful iPhones.

Like a game review

[mvdwege]

It is obvious that the reviewer is a Microsoft fanboy of the sort that used to protest here on Slashdot that they had been running Slackware ever since it came out, because otherwise I can't understand why I must calibrate his review as if it were a game review done by a game magazine that's carrying lots of publisher advertising. You know, the ones where a 75% score means: "This is actually crap, but if we print it we lose advertisers".

Let's see:

• The Start menu still sucks
• The privacy policy is horrible
• The Virtual workspaces have trouble with multiple monitors
• The store is a mess
• The UI is still not up to high resolution displays

And this counts as a competent upgrade? Who the fuck does he think he's kidding?

Re:Honestly?

[cheater512]

Yes it's very similar to Internet Explorer which also cannot be backported.

That's the official line from Microsoft anyway. Why a web browser is tied to a OS version is beyond me.
DX to be fair has some interaction with graphics drivers so its slightly more involved, but not much. Graphics drivers work just fine on XP for example, so could the new DX with some work.

Re:Honestly?

[David_Hart]

All our boxes at work are still on 7 and we're hoping they stay there. The big upgrade to Vista years back drove the IT people to their knees. They struggled endlessly to keep boxes that had been stable and working smooth before the upgrade to stay up and running for more than a few mere hours without locking up. When 7 became available it put everything right but we still remember how bad it was. At one time my shop had 13 machines and if 5 of them were working it was a good day.

The problem wasn't Vista. I get that to most users the problem was the OS, but that just wasn't the case. The problem was that Microsoft changed the driver model and device vendors just weren't ready with device drivers for Vista. They didn't believe Microsoft when they stated the release date for Vista and then actually met it. So, older drivers that worked with NT were not so happy with Vista. And even when vendors started releasing drivers for older hardware, they tended to be buggy. On top of that, a lot of vendors just didn't bother. If you wanted a vista capable device, you had to buy a new one.

Yes, there were also problems with users and IT departments getting used to how UAC worked, but once you turned it off those issues went away.

Re:Honestly?

[pslytely psycho]

Don't get the browser thing either, but you got me to thinking. There may be something to the DirectX incompatibility,

I see little difference in GPU's over the last few years, but prior to that it seemed like new hardware got hugely better every few months. My two year old R9 270x is fully compatible with DirectX12, but my previous GPU would not of been. So maybe it's more of a hardware issue than OS issue.

I know, I'm not a tech and I have no idea what I'm really talking about.....so thanks for a polite response to an aging hippy truckdriver who loves technology ......(:

Even numbered OS's are shit

[Karmashock]

Even numbered MS releases are garbage. I don't know why that is... it just is... and that made it funny that they skipped 9.

Basically MS ossilates between making the corporate customers happy and the consumer customers happy. The corporate releases are odd numbered for some reason and the customer releases are even numbered.

Even numbered OS's...
98
Vista
Windows 8

Odd numbered:
Windows 95
Windows NT/XP
Windows 7

Long story short... i'm waiting for windows 11. Windows 10 has cooties.

Re:Even numbered OS's are shit

[Karmashock]

MS os's... and i cited NT...

Re:Even numbered OS's are shit

[Anonymous Coward]

You cited NT as if you thought it was only a single version of windows. You listed it with XP (which was a single version of NT). NT has been around for over 20 years now and has had major releases of (at least) 3, 4, 5, and 6. I'm no fan of Microsoft but most of those NT releases have been pretty good. Your claims of even numbered OS releases being shit particularly falls apart in light of NT version 4, which for a lot of people brought NT out of the "Neanderthal Technology" age and into the modern computing environment.

Re:Honestly?

[cheater512]

Problem with that is the DX 12 video card works fine on say Vista, and the DX 9 video card works fine on Windows 10.

If the drivers that support newer DX versions supports older operating systems, then the DX library can be ported easily enough.

Newer versions of Windows also keep the old DX versions around as well.

Re:Honestly?

[adhdengineer]

pretty much this.

I installed windows 8 not too long after it came out. I had to as my PC needed a rebuild after an... incident. long story short never short 12v onto the USB 5v rail. I'd previously had a windows 7 install that came from my works MSDN account, so not exactly legit, and windows 8 was 50 quid at the time (i dont mind paying for software when the price is reasonable and 50 quid is just about at the top of that scale.

So i bought windows 8 and installed it on the rebuilt PC. It was ok but it did have some issues with wanting to be a tablet OS on a desktop PC. Once 8.1 came out they'd solved that and i didnt need to move the mouse to magic places to shutdown and i was happy.

I can admit that, at first, I didnt like that the start menu was gone and the new full screen tile layout, but after i'd cleaned it down and put only the apps i use on it i grew accustomed to it and by the time windows 10 was installed i couldnt go back to the small area for the start menu, i had to re-enable the full screen.

all i need to do is tap the windows key to bring it up then click on the app i want and i'm done. I like having the large area for the app and muscle memory means i can move the mouse to the exact place i need without paying too much attention. no scrolling of windows or multiple click into submenus to get where i need

Re:Honestly?

[TheRaven64]

11. Much of the UI became non-discoverable. I'm not sure if the default hiding of menu bars came with 8 or 7, but it meant that unless you knew that the alt button was magic you were unable to access the menus. Similarly, there was no discoverable way of exiting the Metro apps that would occasionally pop up when you accidentally hit one of the magic key combinations - alt-F4 works, but unless you know that that's a way to quit Windows apps, you're stuck.

I didn't realise how truly bad the UI was until my mother bought a new machine that came with Windows 8 just before I visited the Christmas before last. She's been using Windows since 3.1 and, though she's not exactly an expert, she's got more than a passing familiarity with the OS. Lots of things just left her completely stuck. I've no idea where MS found the people that they put in their usability testing lab, but they don't seem representative of users. When my girlfriend bought a new laptop, I persuaded her to buy one that came with a Windows 7 downgrade. It took her about two weeks before deciding that it was worth using, and she was someone who had managed to tolerate Vista for years. She seems pretty happy with 7 (though some parts of the UI suck: anyone know how to set up an ad-hoc WiFi network with Windows Vista, 7, or 8? The network config UIs are completely different in all three and I couldn't figure it out in any of them).

Re: Honestly?

[TheRaven64]

Since OpenGL 3, GL ES has been a subset of OpenGL, so you can run a GL ES program on any compliant OpenGL implementation. The main difference in the initial GL ES release was the half-precision floating point type, which was not widely supported in hardware on desktop GPUs.

Re:Honestly?

[TheRaven64]

The IE thing makes more sense. They rewrote a lot of IE to use the new 2D text and graphics compositing APIs, so they couldn't backport it without either maintaining two distinct rendering paths or backporting a load of system library code.

The Direct3D thing is more silly, as OpenGL drivers on Windows XP expose all of the functionality from the hardware that Direct3D does on newer systems.

Re:Honestly?

[pslytely psycho]

Hadn't thought of it that way.
Comes down to a simple R.O.I. then doesn't it?
No money to be made.
Sigh, same story with everything isn't it?

My upgrade experiences

[DrXym]

I've "upgraded" 3 machines to Windows 10, two were on 8.1, another on Windows 7. Of the 8.1s, one was a docking tablet with a fair amount of supplementary drivers, the other was a laptop which had a vanilla 8.1 installed on it.

The laptop appeared to upgrade ok but upon rebooting was excrutiatingly slow and unresponsive. It kept asking for permission to run an activesync exchange app or somesuch and neither Windows Update or Edge could connect to the internet even though Firefox could. I suspect that the machine had family safety turned on in 8.1 and it fucked up on the upgrade. In the end I reverted to 8.1. I might turn off family safety and try again.

The docking tablet upgraded fine but the drivers for the keyboard and touch pad are botched. I can't type certain keys on the keyboard and after a while it goes completely haywire. I'll probably live with it for a week to give Lenovo a change to produce a new driver and if they don't I'll revert to 8.1 there too.

The only one which worked relatively well was the Windows 7 desktop which migrated and booted back up in a good state. But even here there are glitches - some of my tiles look like they've been cut in half and shifted over. All my software works and the desktop experience is good even though the start menu still has a lot of room for improvement. I also discovered that Win 10 has a setting (enabled by default) that allows Microsoft to stuff promotional tiles into your start menu which is annoying.

Overall I'm not impressed at all with Windows 10. It was released prematurely as far as I'm concerned. From an administration point of view, it's also more of a burden because now there isn't just a control panel but also now a settings and clicking a button in one often leads to the other. It's a mess for configuration. None of the administrator tools seem to have gotten any attention either so they're not high-dpi aware for example which means they look blurred on a high density screen.

Re:More responsive than Gnome and KDE

[serviscope_minor]

Current enlightenment, fluxbox, blackbox, XFCE etc are very snappy on just about any desktop less than a decade old

No love for FVWM? :)

Very snappy on my machine. Admittedly it's only 7 years old, but it's an eee PC, so I figure that counts for something since I think the CPU is a 11 year old release.

How to change MAC address in Windows 10?

[gr8dude]

Earlier versions of Windows allowed that, the MAC could be updated via
- the `Device manager`, in the adapter's advanced settings
- the registry editor, by updating a specific key

The new Device Manager does not provide the option to change the MAC. I've also searched the registry for my current MAC address, to no avail.

Does anyone know if this option was removed, or simply moved to some other place?

Re:More responsive than Gnome and KDE

[dbIII]

No love for FVWM? :)

Filed under "etc" along with many other goodies. I used to spend ages tweaking config files for FVWM for some reason despite it being usable out of the box.

Admittedly it's only 7 years old, but it's an eee PC

I have one as well with FreeBSD using E17 on it, which is usable but your idea would be much quicker.

Re:Honestly?

[goarilla]

9. This is a big one for me: removed technical information in stop errors. If stop errors prevent the system from booting, it makes diagnosis a lot harder.

In addition to his, you now have to "enable safe mode" on a running system before you can use it (http://www.7tutorials.com/5-ways-boot-safe-mode-windows-8-windows-81).

Re:Honestly?

[goarilla]

Hehehe, so a system is only stable when it's EOL :D

Useless Shit with Built-in Spyware

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows 10, From a Linux User's Perspective:
Useless Shit with Built-in Spyware

Re: Honestly?

[Joce640k]

OpenGL 4.1 was the first version with full support for OpenGL ES 2.0.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

Re:Honestly?

[Dog-Cow]

All the real CAD/CAM/CAE products run on Linux. If you're stuck with Autocad, well, you're stuck.

The thing is, Windows 8.1 isn't bad

[gatkinso]

Install Classic Shell, ignore the Metro desktop, and move on with your life.

It boots faster, is more stable, and uses less resources than Windows 7. Honestly, aside from UI complaints, I am not sure why everyone hates 8.

There will never again be a revolutionary OS....

[dablow]

...Not unless there is some revolutionary paradigm shift in Computer Science.

OS since Windows XP (or OSX) have pretty much hit their "peak" in terms of balance, usability and stability.

Since Windows XP (or OSX) the user experience has not changed much (although there have been significant changes under the hood).

I remember the days when a new OS required new hardware to run all the new goodies that where added (Think Win3.1=> Win95, Win95=>Win 98SE, or from Win98=>WinXP upgrade).

Since WinXP, all we have really seen is incremental, evolutionary changes that get implemented not only with major OS releases but with patches and service packs (and whatever the OS maker refuses to implement gets covered rather quickly by 3rd party software makers).

I expect this trend to continue for the foreseeable future.

Windows 10, From a Slashdot Poster's Perspective

[Merk42]

Windows? lol it's bad because Microsoft.
Everything M$ does is bad because they are evil!
What? No, I haven't tried it, I only use ~true~ operating systems.

bull shit

[superwiz]

maybe from a linux user's perspective or even a win 8.1 user's. from a win7 user's perspective, win10's UI is a clear regression.

Re:Honestly?

[ChaoticCoyote]

You can customize the Start menu quite a bit -- I've removed all the tiles, for example, so I have a menu that's quite clean and usable. Cortana is gone too. Simple and easy.

Re:Honestly?

[iampiti]

Someone here commented that they'd worked at Microsoft and that they'd done internal user testing of Win 8 and people hated. Of course we all know that management pressed on anyway.
Of course I can't ensure anything of this is true but sounds believable to me.
I agree with other comments that say that most changes to Win 8 and 10 were exclusively to the benefit of Microsoft

Re:Honestly?

[Zan Lynx]

Oh sure, why not backport DX12 to XP.

It would only involve porting all of the internal kernel changes, driver support, DLLs, etc.

So then what, you'd have Windows 10 with a XP shell on top. Yay.

It would be almost exactly like porting DRI3 from Fedora 22 back to RHEL 5. You merely need to recompile kernel, glibc, Xorg, glib, gtk, gnome and KDE.

Get right on that.

Systemd is *not* just an init system - far from it

[walterbyrd]

Systemd is now, essentially, the entire OS.

Re:There will never again be a revolutionary OS...

[nsre]

I think iPhone OS (now iOS) was revolutionary.

Re:Honestly?

[tmjva]

That's why I've returned to board or tabletop gaming for nearly all my gaming. They are not dependent on software of any kind.

The one exception the Empire game I run. And the O/S runs still runs code written in 1973.

Re:More responsive than Gnome and KDE

[serviscope_minor]

I have one as well with FreeBSD using E17 on it, which is usable but your idea would be much quicker.

Enlightment is astonishingly snappy for the level of glitz. I was using Terminology for a while and, frankly, it seemed as snappy as xterm on my eee which is amazing given the nice features it has. Then something broke so I stopped using it. I shoudl really figure that out.

Evolutionary from Windows 7?

[allo]

From 8.1, yes. Evolution to some better UI and worse privacy problems.

From 7 ists like 8 and 8.1, just everything good thrown away to replace it with some utter shit.

Re:Honestly?

[allo]

And like 10 different styles of context menus. Lost the URL, somebody collected screenshots of different menu appearances.

Re:Honestly?

[allo]

So how do google and mozilla do this?

Re:Honestly?

[rpstrong]

Pro/ENGINEER (now a part of PTC Creo Parametric) isn't real? (They dropped Unix support a while ago.)

Re:Honestly?

[rpstrong]

I installed windows 8 not too long after it came out. I had to as my PC needed a rebuild after an... incident. long story short never short 12v onto the USB 5v rail.

I wish you'd told me that three years ago - I might have been more careful about which wall wart I plugged into my USB hub. (Hint: compatible plug size != compatible power). One motherboard later . . .

Re:Honestly?

[TheRaven64]

Not sure about Mozilla. Google does it by shipping an entire graphics stack that uses very little by way of system support (an OpenGL context if one's available or a frame buffer if not). Safari does the same thing.

Re: Giant Menu?

[rpstrong]

Could you resize previous start menus?

I just tried with Win 7 Pro, no go. But similarly, I didn't know - till I stumbled on it - that the vertical panel split in Windows Explorer was adjustable.

Re:Honestly?

[cheater512]

Everyone put your hand up if you want the Windows 10 kernel with the XP Interface?

It would sell like hotcakes!

Re:Honestly?

[allo]

Yeah, that's kind of the point. Microsoft has always put a lot of the MSIE code into system libraries, which lead to the "the IE cannot be seperated from windows" claim. On the other hand they now claim "we cannot update the IE on older windows". Which both is kind of an architecture problem. Mozilla and Google never had a chance to put their features into system libraries, so they made portable browsers. And they were better and faster than the IE in these times. Now IE and Edge catched up, but they are not that much faster because of this tight integration. I do not know the exact performance numbers, as they change from release to release, but all modern browsers are very fast compared to old versions.
I even laugh a bit at each "Browser X now even faster due to new JS engine feature" news, thinking have they done so much wrong all the time before, or is it just getting blazing fast now? Can we get updates which bring 2-3 times the former speed every few months?
Anyway, a browser can be programmed to portable, even in an appdir on an usb stick.

Re:Honestly?

[bobf0648]

The UI looks like a 20 somethig's smart phone! It is however fast, smooth and uses lower resources than 8.1 or 7. Still prefer 7 over 10. On the phone side my Windows phone worked much better with 8.1 than with 10, which was forced on me.

It will be the best windows ever

[DrKarlEvanHallowell]

Windows 10 is great and we should all use it because it is so good

Re:Honestly?

[david_thornley]

Vista was also harder to write drivers for, due to its anti-piracy features. Vendors may not have taken that into account.

The problem with UAC would have happened sometime or other. Without something like UAC, software vendors had no reason not to require the most elevated privileges to run FreeCell. Once it was rammed down people's throats, it took a while for the vendors to adapt.

Re:More responsive than Gnome and KDE

[Zontar The Mindless]

Window Maker FTW.

(Actually, I use KDE most of the time and don't find it a bit laggy or what have you, but WM is great for remote sessions, VMs, and older hardware.)