Jeep/Chrysler's New Gearshift Appears To Be Causing Accidents (roadandtrack.com)

bartle writes: The new gearshift design for the Jeep Grand Cherokee appears to be causing rollaway accidents: 121 crashes and 30 injuries so far. The gear shifter is designed to look and feel similar to a traditional automatic gear shift lever but it is meant to cycle through the gears rather than move directly to a certain gear. A driver who is used to placing their vehicle in park by pressing the shifter all the way forward may instead be setting it to neutral before exiting the vehicle. The NHTSA is investigating.

Comments

So what should we do?

[thechemic]

Should we hold back progress in to protect people from injury, should we penalize the RTFM challenged individuals, or something else?

Re:So what should we do?

[Anonymous Coward]

I dunno. Is this gearshifter 'progress' or is it just a gimmick gone wrong?

Re:So what should we do?

[Anonymous Coward]

Ask GM about this with their car key tumbler issue due to people having overly heavy keyrings

AND

Corvette owner dying in the car because he didn't know about the mechanical release levers on the floor, the targa latches on the roof or the hatch release in the rear...

Re:So what should we do?

[thechemic]

Well... instead of taking action one time with one lever, they "simplified" it, and now you have to actuate the same mechanism several times in order to achieve the same result. This would definitely be considered "progress" in the eyes of Apple.

Re:So what should we do?

[Anonymous Coward]

What progress? Its a look and feel issue.

Like microsoft trying to make pc phone tablet all have the same look and feel it fucks things up.

you have two mechanisms that act differntly yet you are now Making them look and feel the same, then shit happens because what we feel is the same the effect is different

imagine putting the traction control where the car radio volume button is...

Re:So what should we do?

[Anonymous Coward]

Worse than a gimmick gone wrong.
Another cost savings gone wrong.

How is this Progress by any definition of the word.

Re:So what should we do?

[bev_tech_rob]

Why is re-inventing the wheel called progress? What is wrong with the old system? Like the article says, most folks have committed that shifter operation to muscle memory years ago. Why change the way the shift works 'because it is new' ?

Like working a helpdesk in IT, users are creatures of habit and when you start moving their cheese, this kind of stuff happens.

Re:So what should we do?

[thechemic]

Clearly, there was no real progress here. The original comment was "hold back" progress. This issue sets a precedent. If the car manufactures fear change because a few idiots cant RTFM, then it will affect all future progress. Nobody said that the gear shift modification was progress.

Re:So what should we do?

[Anonymous Coward]

Look, Jeep is a Republican-ruled corporation so they want to make even more truckloads of cash by forcing people to destroy their vehicles so they have to buy a new one. That's how they be.

Re:So what should we do?

[friesofdoom]

You really want to read a whole manual every time you get a new car? How about reading a manual every time you buy a screw driver or spanner?

That's worse than learning a new phone OS every time google puts out a new android version...

Re:So what should we do?

[thechemic]

And if you're never allowed to move their cheese, you could never effect "progress" could you. Sometimes you have to move their cheese, and sometimes you have to let "this kind of stuff" happen. Sometimes you even have to do it with very small incremental changes. Since you used the helpdesk reference, perhaps just like the small incremental changes in every iterations of Windows.

Re:So what should we do?

[penguinoid]

Just wait til you hear my idea -- just do the shifting from a touchscreen! I'll link you the Kickstarter once I've filed the patent.

Re:So what should we do?

[thechemic]

If spending 30 minutes to RTFM would save a few hundred individuals from injury, I would happily read the manual. In fact, I recently bought a fully loaded vehicle that drives itself. Despite 20 years in the IT industry doing stuff with the manual, I read the vehicle's manual, and I've been driving it ever since without issue.

Re:So what should we do?

[thechemic]

Love it!

Re:So what should we do?

[sims 2]

Well there's a reason why we don't use the P-N-D-L-R layout anymore. Mainly it was dangerous and got people killed.

Also you do realise modern vehicles imitate the clicking noise the bimetal blinker switches made just because people expect it.

I've got a chevrolet that has a problem with multitasking it can't play the seatbelt warning at the same time as the turn signal. so I get this funny click click click click ding ding click click click click....Like no one's going to notice the turn signal magically went silent.

Re:So what should we do?

[Kozar_The_Malignant]

The old MOPAR push button tranny actuator is prior art.

Re:So what should we do?

[hawguy]

And if you're never allowed to move their cheese, you could never effect "progress" could you. Sometimes you have to move their cheese, and sometimes you have to let "this kind of stuff" happen. Sometimes you even have to do it with very small incremental changes. Since you used the helpdesk reference, perhaps just like the small incremental changes in every iterations of Windows.

You can move the cheese, but don't replace it with a box of poison that looks just like the cheese.

If they want to change the UI for a shifter, they should make it completely different, not make something that looks, and superficially feels the same while in actuality it's quite different. What they did is akin to wanting to have a joy-stick instead of a steering wheel, but instead of just putting in an obvious joystick, they made it look just like a steering wheel.

Re: So what should we do?

[Anonymous Coward]

They want us to crash.

Re:So what should we do?

[fred911]

Oh you mean like three on the tree, or brightlight switches on the floorboard? Or were you talking about pedal activated starters?

  Just wondering how far you de-evolve.

Re:So what should we do?

[PinkyGigglebrain]

If your friend loans you their car do you read the manual? Or do you, like most people would, assume that the car's gear shift works like every other car out there?

I wouldn't be so quick to criticize other people because one car manufacturer decided to change what has been a defacto standard for longer than you have probably been alive.

And how is adding steps progress? I really hope you were trying to be sarcastic, and if that is the case I apologies for my mildly snarky comment.

Re:So what should we do?

[bondsbw]

Yes, clearly the difference between tiles and icons on an OS menu is the exact same as the difference between control interfaces of an object that has the ability to injure or kill you.

Besides, your premise "you have two mechanisms that act differntly yet you are now Making them look and feel the same" is flawed because nothing in Windows 10 looks the same as Windows 7 but acts differently.

Re:So what should we do?

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

"RTFM!!!!" is the sloppy engineer's response for a dangerous or mass market product.

RTFM! is about as successful in this case as "To lose weight, eat less!" is to America's obesity problem. A terrible engineering solution.

Re:So what should we do?

[Anonymous Coward]

WTF? How is this PROGRESS? Make an electronic shifter all you want but then make it look & act 'entirely differently' from the 'customer understood & approved' method. The damn shifter even has a labelling suggesting that 'up' is P. And in what world is 'shifting through gears to get to Park' easier than 'shift from any gear directly in to park'? Seriously, make the gear changes left-right & park you push up, Reverse goes down. All that can be easily done with an electronic shifter & would be far more natural,understandable & safer than just a toggle that shifts through 'gear settings'...this isn't 'clueless users' this is 'clueless usability designers'...WTF were they thinking? 60 years or more people have expected to 'push the shifter in to park & its in park' not 'push up towards park & wait until it says so before believing its in park'.

Push comes to shove this is a dumb ass design.

Re:So what should we do?

[Grishnakh]

He was definitely implying that this new design was progressive. It was not, it's an utterly stupid gimmick, as others have said here. It looks too much like a traditional AT shift lever, but functions completely different, and worse, for no good reason. There's a good reason that most cars these days have standardized on a particular control layout: it works well, people are used to it, and standardization is valuable when people change vehicles. People do rent cars from time to time, or drive other peoples' cars, and making confusing differences just to be "cool" and "edgy" is just going to cause problems like this. This doesn't mean you should avoid change that's actually beneficial, but this shift lever is not an example of this, it's an example of a really stupid change that makes things worse.

Also, if you are going to make a change to commonly-accepted controls, this is a prime example of why you shouldn't try to make it resemble an existing method too much. Make it noticeably different, and people will pay attention, rather than assuming it works the same as what they're used to.

Re:So what should we do?

[amicusNYCL]

I don't think anyone is holding back anything. The gear shifters in question, introduced in the Charger and 300 in 2012, have been replaced in those 2 cars for 2015 and were replaced in the Cherokee for 2016. They already got replaced and now they're being investigated because they are "not intuitive" and offer "poor tactile and visual feedback to the driver, increasing the potential for unintended gear selection." Fiat Chrysler was probably generally aware of that, which is why they replaced them, but they're still being investigated anyway.

If they try for progress and fail there's no reason why we shouldn't try to learn whatever lessons we can from their failure.

Re:So what should we do?

[Anonymous Coward]

Had this same problem with a BMW. The stalk shift lever has a button to put on park. When I was tired, on two separate occasions, I slammed it upwards and took my foot off the brake as it idled forward. Same muscle memory logic. This is only an article because it's trickling down to other cars.

Re:So what should we do?

[Virtucon]

Or let natural selection take its course. If god had intended us to have simulated gearshift joysticks he'd never have created the Muncie 4 speed.

Re:So what should we do?

[Anonymous Coward]

And if you're never allowed to move their cheese, you could never effect "progress" could you. Sometimes you have to move their cheese, and sometimes you have to let "this kind of stuff" happen. Sometimes you even have to do it with very small incremental changes. Since you used the helpdesk reference, perhaps just like the small incremental changes in every iterations of Windows.

No, you have confused "moving the cheese for a legitimate reason that makes things better" with "moving the cheese because the new model of our widget must be significantly different from the old model because . . . marketing! even though moving the cheese provides zero benefit and actually makes things significantly worse".

See: Windows, Firefox, etc.

I call it "The New Coke Syndrome". Companies with too many employees, especially in the marketing department, who have to justify their existence, and so they constantly create new "features" with no regard for the consequences.

Re:So what should we do?

[Thelasko]

1) Nobody RTFM when they buy a new car
2) Nobody RTFM when the rent a car
The industry had standard, and Chrysler deviated from the standard. The benefit to deviating from the standard is nonexistent. The drawback is a safety concern.

It reminds me of push button start. Once you get over the "Gee Whiz" factor, it's a safety concern.

Re:So what should we do?

[Anonymous Coward]

Replace that old Powerglide with a TH350 and don't tell the owner that the shifter went from PNDLR to PRNDL2L1

Re: So what should we do?

[Anonymous Coward]

Besides Apple, dirt bikes and race cars also use sequential transmissions. Wait, WTF point were you trying to make?

Re:So what should we do?

[bobbied]

Now you are just getting cranky? Break your arm or something? Remember, retard the timing and turn on the ignition before you pull... (Yes, I've done it and NO I'm not that old).

Re: So what should we do?

[BarbaraHudson]

Yes, motorcycles use sequential shift standard transmissions - but they don''t disguise it to look like an ordinary gear shift. For motorcycles, one foot works the shift lever, the other the rear brakes. No mistaking that. Also, since it uses a clutch, there is no "park" - just stick it in gear.

Re:So what should we do?

[djbckr]

I'll chime in with a great example of moved cheese: The Prius. The "shifter" is nothing like any other, and yet it's intuitive. It had a separate button for park (as I recall - I got rid of it). It was very straightforward to use, yet completely different than a standard PRNDL shifter.

Re:So what should we do?

[Anonymous Coward]

My girlfriend has a Charger that has one of these shifters. I've been driving for 20 years, and the times I've driven her car, I have mistakenly put it in the wrong gear several times.

The problem isn't that the shifter operates differently, it's that it feels like a traditional shifter and operates completely differently. Change the mechanism so that it's a push button, dial, switches, whatever. Just not the way automatic transmissions have traditionally been if it's going to act differently.

Having said that, I absolutely hate that part of her car, although I like most of the other features of the car.

Re:So what should we do?

[BarbaraHudson]

So everyone is using a DVORAK keyboard now, and nobody is saying you can have my QWERTY keyboard when you pry it from my cold dead hands?

Re:So what should we do?

[Harlequin80]

I could be wrong as it has been a while since I drove one but I'm pretty sure that the ML series Mercedes use sequential presses on the gear shift, but instead of being on the floor it is a lever on the steering wheel. I have seen other autos with the gear selecter on the tree as well but having the positions.

Re:So what should we do?

[sexconker]

Corvette owner dying in the car because he didn't know about the mechanical release levers on the floor, the targa latches on the roof or the hatch release in the rear...

To be fair the most recent case I heard about involved an elderly man and his dog. The man was found with the owner's manual in his lap, trying to find out how to open the door without a functioning electrical system. The mention of the latch location is buried somewhere on page 67 or some shit. It should be in the first few pages.

Re:So what should we do?

[Harlequin80]

But cars aren't all the same. For example my car doesn't have a hand brake lever, it has a pedal down in the foot well and a release lever under the dash. Now here is something for you to consider..... It's a manual. The first time you have to do a hill start in it, you will have a mild panic.

Panic that is until you learn that if you press the brake pedal hard the brakes stay locked on even with your foot off the brake and auto disengage as you start to move forward.

Re:So what should we do?

[sims 2]

Thats right because everyone loved the new office ribbon menu system. And people loved the windows 8 metro screen even more than that! Because everyone wants to relearn how to drive a car every time they get a new one. I can just imagine: Great news everyone we've improved the steering now when you turn the steering wheel left your vehicle turns to the right on any 2017. ;-)

Re:So what should we do?

[David_Hart]

Should we hold back progress in to protect people from injury, should we penalize the RTFM challenged individuals, or something else?

There are two issues here. The first is new technology and the second is user training.

I have a 2014 Jeep Grand Cherokee. The shifter acts just like a joystick, changing gears with a bump instead of going into a mechanical position. This forces the user to have to look at the dash, which shows the shift position, or at the top of the shift stick, shift position is lit. This would be a transition for people who have never used joysticks and who are used to muscle memory to determine what gear the shifter is in.

The second piece is user training. The manual clear says that the driver should apply the parking brake every time they park the car. This not only ensures the driver's safety in case they have the shifter in the wrong position but it also takes some of the stress off of the drive system. Of course, a lot of drivers are lazy and never use the parking brake. And Yes, on the Jeep it's called a "Parking Brake" for a reason. It isn't an "emergency brake", though it doubles as one.

In fact, this is what the manual says:

PARK (P) This range supplements the parking brake by locking the transmission. The engine can be started in this range. Never attempt to use PARK while the vehicle is in motion. Apply the parking brake when leaving the vehicle in this range. When parking on a level surface, you may shift the transmission into PARK first, and then apply the parking Shift Lever brake.

It's easy to argue that using a joystick is design flaw or a step backwards. I agree that humans are built with muscle memory and that a mechanical shift position is better than an electronic one. The ideal would be an electronic shifter with mechanical gates. But that doesn't negate the requirement to apply the parking bake in this type of vehicle.

It could be argued that using the parking brake as intended is muscle memory. In fact, I'm at the point where I automatically apply it when parking and disengage it when starting the car. The problem is that most drivers have no idea what the parking brake is for, beyond an emergency.

A rambling way to say that the design is partially to blame, an electronic shifter with gates would be better, and the driver is partially to blame, not using the parking brake. I would say a 50/50 or 60/40 split.

Oh, and one last thing, putting a car in Park does not guarantee that it will not roll. There have been cases where the parking prawl gives way (in general, not specific to any brand). It's always safer to use the parking brake.

Re:So what should we do?

[sjames]

What progress? It's a gimmick.

If you want progress, go with a simple rotary switch that doesn't take up the whole center console or fool people into operating it incorrectly.. If you want all electronic but maintaining a familiar look and feel, go with a multi-position switch actuated by a gear lever with stiff dentents.

Re: So what should we do?

[Anonymous Coward]

plus, from the image in the article, this isn't even shifting sequentially through the gears. it appears to only sequentially shift to/from P/R/N/D. confusing at best, and utterly stupid from a UI perspective. this isn't like a motorcycle or F1 car at all...

Re:So what should we do?

[PAjamian]

I think the reason for this change was more subversive than that. this gear shift is just an electrical toggle switch wired into the car's computer, so it's very likely it was designed as a cheap replacement for the more expensive traditional gear-shift lever. This would have almost certainly been a decision based on manufacturing cost.

Re:So what should we do?

[bill_mcgonigle]

There has to be something to distinguish the Chrysler transmission from the pack, other than that they all die at 90,000 miles.

Re:So what should we do?

[FatdogHaiku]

Mine is even safer!
You touch the steering wheel with your nose to change gears.
This way your hands remain on the wheel at all times.
There is an issue with airbag deployment while shifting but the workaround is simple, don't be the person driving at that time.

Re:So what should we do?

[Dan East]

This reminds me of the worst interface design I've seen in a long time. This Holmes heater: http://www.amazon.com/Holmes-H...

Brilliant idea. One single button. You have to push it repeatedly to go through every temperature setting with low fan, then press it repeatedly to go through all the temperatures again in high fan speed. Absolutely the stupidest design I've ever seen. I would like to see them design a computer keyboard. Those brilliant minds would give us a keyboard with one button you press repeatedly a hundred times to enter a single character.

Re:So what should we do?

[HornWumpus]

Almost as good an idea as the Kegel shifter.

Re:So what should we do?

[tlhIngan]

If they want to change the UI for a shifter, they should make it completely different, not make something that looks, and superficially feels the same while in actuality it's quite different. What they did is akin to wanting to have a joy-stick instead of a steering wheel, but instead of just putting in an obvious joystick, they made it look just like a steering wheel.

If you look at the picture, you're supposed to "upshift" it into Park, so you'd hit up to go from D to N, then up again to go from N to R, then up again to go from R to Park.

Which is pretty stupid, since it's just a quick shove to get it into park in every other vehicle. And even in joystick shifters, they make full use of the joystick - push IN to park (from anywhere), push UP to reverse, push DOWN to drive, push AWAY for neutral. This still leaves a pull towards you for an action - low gear, for example. The beauty of this is it's the same action to go anywhere to anywhere - if I want to go park, I push the joystick in. If I want to go from park to drive, I pull it down. If I want to reverse, just push it up. And neutral is just shove it forward away from me.

But a shifter is generally assumed that slide it away from you all the way to park it - push the button, shove all the way forward, it ends up in park.

And if you really know your car, you know which shifts don't require pushing the button - park to reverse requires it (and vice versa), reverse to neutral no (try it! most vehicles will shift from reverse to neutral without the button), but obviously, neutral to reverse requires the button. Same as neutral to drive, but some vehicles don't require drive to neutral to have the button pushed. And from drive to low gears requires the button pushed, but going from low gears to higher gears and drive, no (which requires careful shifting if your car doesn't require pushing the button to go from drive to neutral!)

Re:So what should we do?

[unrtst]

Agreed, and continuing that line of thought...

What they did is akin to wanting to have a joy-stick instead of a steering wheel, but instead of just putting in an obvious joystick, they made it look just like a steering wheel.

... and it only moves 1" to the right or left and snaps back to center when you release. You hold it left and your wheels will keep turning more and more left - harder you hold, faster it turns. Let go, and it stays in that turned spot.
That would be insane, and that's exactly what they did. Luckily, the gear change operation is generally done while stationary with the brake on, and only done at the start of driving once done, so accident counts are low and not severe.

Re: So what should we do?

[Anonymous Coward]

When "progress" is defined as "more profits".

Re:So what should we do?

[Krishnoid]

You're mistaken -- the cheese convention was a few weeks ago, on 1/11.

Re:So what should we do?

[Anonymous Coward]

Clearly, there was no real progress here. The original comment was "hold back" progress. This issue sets a precedent. If the car manufactures fear change because a few idiots cant RTFM, then it will affect all future progress. Nobody said that the gear shift modification was progress.

What, every person who gets into a car will have immediate access to the manual? And you did note that the gear shift is designed to look like the usual design, but not act like it.

Re:So what should we do?

[thechemic]

I am sorry you're obese, but the solution is indeed eat less.

Re:So what should we do?

[Anonymous Coward]

But his uses a computer.

Patent granted!

Re:So what should we do?

[KGIII]

It is your job to know full, safe, operation methods prior to operating the vehicle. Yes, it means needing to learn a few things and cars have man differences between them. I have more than one car that you probably couldn't even figure out how to start, never mind get into motion. Learn to operate the vehicle prior to operating the vehicle.

Re:So what should we do?

[Anonymous Coward]

The P-N-D-L-R is the Required way since Ralph Nader's Book and Congress Pass Legislation.
Random Patterns appear to be even worse.

Re:So what should we do?

[Just Some Guy]

Also, the (possibly trained) driver isn't going to be the only person to ever sit behind the wheel. Valets, mechanics, and friends will all take turns driving over the years. Is Joe Driver going to remember that the pattern he's learned and committed to muscle memory over months of driving is unexpected, and to warn everyone he gives the keys to? This is bad UI, pure and simple.

Re:So what should we do?

[drinkypoo]

The old MOPAR push button tranny actuator is prior art.

and also a much better plan, I wonder why they didn't just use push buttons. it woulda been chrysler retro, which would have fit the trend in Jeep styling.

Re:So what should we do?

[PolygamousRanchKid]

"Siri, please shift into park, please." "And open the pod bay doors, while you're at it."

Re:So what should we do?

[BronsCon]

Yes, it uses those presses to shift between gears while still using a lever to shift between drive modes. The lever being discussed here behaves in the same manner as the paddle, but to cycle between drive modes, rather than gears.

Re: So what should we do?

[Anonymous Coward]

No, it shouldn't. As a Corvette owner myself, I can tell you theyre clearly marked on the floorboars.

You are also supposed to be familiar with things like that BEFORE the emergency. But, that would require people to assume some shred of personal responsibility.

Re:So what should we do?

[Asgard]

However the rental scenario is apt -- I'm unlikely to read through a car manual in the lot to check that there are no gotchas with the gas pedal / brake if they resemble what I'm already familiar with. A critical control that behaves significantly differently then all others of the same appearance is bad user design, also known as the principle of least surprise.

Sort of like replacing the function of the disk 'save' icon with a disk 'wipe' function -- yeah someone could read the entire manual but its sneaky to do that.

If it is going to behave significantly differently it should look/feel significantly differently.

Re:So what should we do?

[BronsCon]

No, the correct way to do it is to leave their cheese exactly where the fuck it's always been, but put some better, tastier cheese somewhere else and direct them to it. Eventually, they'll abandon their old cheese and then (and only then) can you remove it, or they'll keep with their old cheese and you can remove the new. You never take the cheese they're eating, lest they bite your hand.

Re:So what should we do?

[BronsCon]

If you spending 30 minutes reading the manual would save a few hundred from injury, that would be a valid argument. When it is several thousand who must spend 30 minutes each reading the manual, translating to several thousand man-hours, to save the same few hundred, it just seems a waste. That said, most people do pull out the manual for the obviously new features of their new vehicle; this is designed to look and feel like the exact same shit lever everyone already knows, thus not obviously new and not triggering a manual reference. That's bad UI design, plain and simple; you always make the thing that behaves differently look different.

Re:So what should we do?

[citizenr]

Sounds exactly like Hakko soldering gear, you pay >$500 for soldering station and end up with 1985 alarm clock/wristwatch type of interface for setting up temperature.

Re:So what should we do?

[Anonymous Coward]

Or, you just learn to drive a manual the right way and you don't need to use the e-brake to start moving on a hill.

Re:So what should we do?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well shit! If you can't do a hill start in a manual without that fancy feature you're just coddled...what's wrong with a bit of excitement in your life? :-)

To be fair you did say 'first time' & yeah I do recall my first time thinking 'shiiiitttt' :-)

Re:So what should we do?

[BronsCon]

No, the solution is to eat better. Eating less of the same shitty imbalanced diet still triggers your body to store everything it can, since lacking nutrition is a biological warning of food scarcity.

Re:So what should we do?

[pixelpusher220]

your car now has jeep sized dent in it. Sorry tough luck...it's progress.

Re:So what should we do?

[khallow]

Sometimes you have to move their cheese, and sometimes you have to let "this kind of stuff" happen.

This isn't one of those cases. The irony here is that the owners knew that the cheese had been moved and probably some of them bought that Cherokee because of the novelty. In other words, there probably was a bit of demand from car owners for this very change. That makes this discussion of "moving the cheese" a bit of a red herring. Instead, I see it as a straightforward UI design issue.

Re:So what should we do?

[Harlequin80]

This wasn't to change gear, this was to change drive modes. As I said I could be remembering it wrong but I'm sure it had park in the middle, press it down once and it went into neutral, press down again and it went into drive. Then you had to push up up up to get to reverse and I'm sure the level returned to the starting point every time.

Just looked for a youtube video - here https://www.youtube.com/watch?... The lever returns to the center every time.

Re:So what should we do?

[Registered Coward v2]

The issues in not progress but deviating from a long standing standard way of presenting information. People expect it to respond in a certain manner when they operate it and so do not realize they are not doing what they actually think they are doing. This isn't unique to Chrysler or the auto industry; many others have suffered from the same problem of poor human factors engineering.

Re:So what should we do?

[thechemic]

Eat better? So solving America's obesity problem requires earing with a higher level of skill? No, the solution is to EAT LESS: less high calorie foods, less junk food, less junk drinks, less less less. The Impy the Impiuos Imp can find 472 different "better" ways to shove Mc Donalds into his face, but none of them will help him solve his obesity problems.

Re: So what should we do?

[pixelpusher220]

We're not talking about the rare concept of trying to unlock an auto transmission when the alternator dies so you can push the thing.

This is OPENING THE FUCKING DOOR.

Re:So what should we do?

[c-A-d]

I think the Edsel predates that with the push buttons to select gears on the steering wheel.

Re:So what should we do?

[thechemic]

If you're the type of person that buys a 3500 pound object that can go 100+ MPH and fail to read the manual which results in the injury of another individual, you're an idiot.

Re:So what should we do?

[BronsCon]

I've never seen that before but yeah, it looks distinctly different than the typical automatic "shift" lever everyone and their grandmother is used to; therefore, it clearly operates differently. That's an example of the right way to implement something different; make it clearly and obviously different.

That said, it might confuse people who've driven cars with shifter stalks, but those haven't been on the market in something like 40 years and haven't been common for at least 30; anyone encountering something similar now would have to relearn it at this point.

Re:So what should we do?

[BronsCon]

No, not better as in "with more skill", better as in "with more balance". Are you being purposefully obtuse, or are you just an idiot? I'm leaning toward the latter, as the even the common idiot would have known what I was saying, especially once I said "imbalanced diet".

Re:So what should we do?

[thechemic]

Thank you for making my point. You're advocating that we hold back any form of change and therefore any form of progress simply to protect the habitually unintelligent. You further advocate violence by inferring that unanticipated change should result in a bite. I think you need help bro. We love you; you're going to be okay.

Re:So what should we do?

[thechemic]

You clearly took my statements out of context, and so I also purposefully took yours out of context. The only difference is that I didn't need a box of tissues to recover from the event afterwards. Chin up sunshine. You're going to live through this.

Re:So what should we do?

[Harlequin80]

Also it makes sense that if you are going fully electronic to get it out of the way. It doesn't make sense to keep it in easy reach if you don't use it regularly.

Re:So what should we do?

[BronsCon]

I know that putting it in gear allows it to move, pressing the gas makes it go faster, pressing the brake makes it go slower, and can recognize the universal symbols for instrumentation. Beyond that, all I need from the manual is fluid types and capacities, maintenance schedules, and a reference for anything nonstandard. Unless you're a new driver, that's all you should need the manual for, as well. Speaking of idiots, you should check my reply to you in our other little "conversation".

Re:So what should we do?

[thechemic]

If you've been able to simply hop in and go with every vehicle you've ever owned, clearly you've never been able to afford a vehicle with a broad range of advanced features. I'm sorry you're upset by that. Please don't take it out on me.

Re:So what should we do?

[AaronW]

I rode in a Fisker Karma that behaved like that, except it kept going bong bong bong the whole time it was being driven due to a software bug. You could clearly hear the turn signal clicker also screwing up. They fixed that in a later software update but the software was so buggy I couldn't believe it was used on a production car. It was maybe OK for a prototype, but not even alpha quality.

Re:So what should we do?

[BronsCon]

Oh yes, those are tears of anguish and not tears of laughter. You're not even a good troll, at least they're entertaining.

Re:So what should we do?

[BronsCon]

If the "advanced features" of your vehicle affect how the pedals and steering wheel control the vehicle in ways that an be adequately explained, rather than experienced, I dare say you haven't driven advanced enough vehicles, friend.

Re:So what should we do?

[BronsCon]

Another salient point.

Re:So what should we do?

[stephows]

Yet every new Prius driver I know of (including myself) spends the first 10 minutes trying to figure out how to make it work. One neighbour got it into reverse and then backed it down the street one inch at a time while trying to figure out how to go forward again. Once learnt it is simple and intuitive and obvious but not at the beginning. Which of course means it is not intuitive and obvious at all - just simple.

Re:So what should we do?

[The Grim Reefer]

Sorry, I already filed a patent for doing this from an app on a phone. As soon as I can figure out how to require a 3D printer, something to do with graphene, and use solar panels that are 30% more efficient than current panels, I'll make billions.

Re:So what should we do?

[wernst]

Why is re-inventing the wheel called progress?

Didn't you read? They didn't re-invent the wheel. They re-invented the shifter. Pay attention.

Re:So what should we do?

[thechemic]

At least you're finally being honest with yourself. I'm proud of you.

Re:So what should we do?

[BronsCon]

Bullying? And I'm the one with a bedtime? Ask your mommy and daddy what bullying is before you try and accuse someone of doing it.

What vehicle on the market today drives itself? Must be a Tesla and that feature is still in beta, released as a software update, and not in the manual.

Don't you have school in the morning?

Re:So what should we do?

[AaronW]

And how often do you RTFM when you get a rental car and are in a hurry to get to your hotel room after a long flight? The controls on most cars are fairly universal. The only ones I've driven that behave differently are the Prius and some high-end cars like my Tesla. It's muscle memory with most cars with automatics.

Re:So what should we do?

[hawguy]

Yet every new Prius driver I know of (including myself) spends the first 10 minutes trying to figure out how to make it work.
One neighbour got it into reverse and then backed it down the street one inch at a time while trying to figure out how to go forward again.
Once learnt it is simple and intuitive and obvious but not at the beginning.
Which of course means it is not intuitive and obvious at all - just simple.

The PRNDL shifter isn't intuitive either -- why do you pull it backwards to go forwards, and push it forwards to go backwards? It's just so ubiquitous that everyone knows how it works.

Re:So what should we do?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, it might have been intuitive for you, but it wasn't for me or most of the other people in our car share scheme, and it's gone now. Note the 'car share scheme' part. If you use different vehicles it's handy if they operate in much the same way. You also didn't explain why the Prius's system is an improvement, since I can't think of any way in which it was. Add in the parking brake on the floor peddle thing, and you heading for plenty of "How do I make this thing go?" phone calls.

Re:So what should we do?

[MrNaz]

So do you read the manual cover to cover every time you drive a friend's car or rental car which is a make and model that you've never driven before, just to be sure that all pedals, control sticks, steering wheel, and other parts function the same way?

I can tell you that I don't. When I get into a car, I look to check if it's manual or automatic, and that's the end of it. Occasionally the indicator and wiper controls may be switched, but that's about as different as I've ever seen. I'd probably make the same mistake. This gear shifter looks like a standard AT stick, but operates totally differently. They should have made it LOOK different too, to avoid these mishaps.

Besides, do you really want to live in a world where a car's basic operation is as capriciously different as the design of the controls on the stereo and heating/cooling system? I for one sure as hell do not, and you are inviting a world of pain by justifying what Jeep has done here.

Re:So what should we do?

[Felix Da Rat]

Apple beat them to it.

Re:So what should we do?

[thechemic]

There are several manufacturers with vehicles that have lane-sense and auto-steer technology. The systems have been on public roadways for 15 years now. You could at least fire up Google and search once or twice before being an asshole. Do I have to do everything for you? Here are 7 MILLION SEARCH RESULTS for "Lane Keeping System" you moron. https://www.google.com/search?...

Re:So what should we do?

[BronsCon]

WTF dude, what are you, like 12? Finish your homework and go to bed already, wouldn't want you getting grounded and losing computer privileges.

Re:So what should we do?

[eth1]

This reminds me of the worst interface design I've seen in a long time. This Holmes heater: http://www.amazon.com/Holmes-H...

Brilliant idea. One single button. You have to push it repeatedly to go through every temperature setting with low fan, then press it repeatedly to go through all the temperatures again in high fan speed. Absolutely the stupidest design I've ever seen. I would like to see them design a computer keyboard. Those brilliant minds would give us a keyboard with one button you press repeatedly a hundred times to enter a single character.

Ah, so that's who Bethesda has been hiring to design the Fallout PC interfaces! It all makes sense now...

Re:So what should we do?

[Anonymous Coward]

You're welcome to stick with the horse and cart system.

Re:So what should we do?

[Anonymous Coward]

...and how many parked cars did you roll back into before you found that out? I don't know, I think the handbrake next to the gear shift is probably a pretty good idea after all.

Re:So what should we do?

[Anonymous Coward]

If you think that this gear operation represents progress vis a vis the old gear design, then you clearly don't know what progress is. Are you a UI developer at Mozilla, by any chance?

Re:So what should we do?

[DigiShaman]

I like the P-R-N-D-4-3-2-L layout on the Toyota RAV4. Very functional and safe IMHO. Pretty hard to fuck that up.

Re:So what should we do?

[AaronW]

The manuals I've driven never had this. I've driven cars with both foot and hand brakes and for manuals neither was very friendly if you didn't know how to use the clutch properly. One of those cars also had the high beam as a button you used your foot to press under the parking brake pedal. It took a lot of practice with one of those cars. It had a very finicky clutch that was either on or off with very little play in between. I had another manual where the only time I ever used the clutch was to go in and out of first gear or reverse from a stop. I could upshift and downshift just by rev matching. I also learned to do some interesting things using my foot to hit both the brake and the accelerator to get the engine to rev up if I were on a hill because the car was so gutless. My current car is the first car I've owned with a hill hold feature. It was added in a software update. I never really saw the need for it. My Tesla behaves like a cross between a manual and an automatic with the way I have it configured. I let up off the accelerator and it decelerates strongly. If I'm stopped and I lift my foot off the brake (and I'm not on a hill), the car rolls like a manual with the clutch pedal engaged with no creep like an automatic. Basically as far as I'm concerned hill hold is needed for inexperienced drivers or those with slow reaction times or if you have a really gutless engine.

Re:So what should we do?

[eth1]

Corvette owner dying in the car because he didn't know about the mechanical release levers on the floor, the targa latches on the roof or the hatch release in the rear...

To be fair the most recent case I heard about involved an elderly man and his dog. The man was found with the owner's manual in his lap, trying to find out how to open the door without a functioning electrical system. The mention of the latch location is buried somewhere on page 67 or some shit. It should be in the first few pages.

That's even worse than my Boxster, where they've locked the battery under a trunk lid that requires battery power to open...

Re: So what should we do?

[Anonymous Coward]

Jeep WJs are known for a parking brake so weak it cannot hold the vehicle from rolling in neutral except when parking on a dead flat. After a complete overhaul of the brakes on the used one I bought (they were stuck on all the time, not that you'd notice!) I found with the parking brake fully engaged and the vehicle in neutral on a flat road I could actually push it forward. Not even enough power to hold the vehicle in place from the 1/10th hp I could apply by hand. Of course it would roll in drive from all that power in idle.

Check the boards, you'll see it's a well known issue and is not correctable. Guess what vehicle they'll be buying, if they were otherwise satisfied with their 99-04 Gc?

Re:So what should we do?

[thechemic]

In the single post you've made above there are no less than 6 spelling/grammar errors. Only children speak using the word "like" all the time. I think we both know who needs to do homework and grow up here, and that somebody is you.

I have a wife that needs my attention. I'm sorry that you have to tend to your own genitals.

Re:So what should we do?

[KGIII]

I do not read the manual but I do ensure I know how it functions, up to and and including asking the owner to show me. My friends and I own some rather odd cars. Some of them are rather pricey. Some of them are pretty complicated. I understand every necessary function, including shift patterns, before I drive it.

My own cars? I not only read the manual but I buy and read the actual factory technicians manual and Haynes or Chilton's manuals when I can. Why would you want to operate a tool without knowing its use? Why risk your own safety and the safety of others. There's a time and place to risk your own safety and the safety of willing participants. We call that track day or race day. The public didn't opt in for me driving around risking their lives by being too lazy to understand the necessary functions of the vehicle. And yes, proper shifting is indeed a necessary function.

I'm not kidding - I've got vehicles you probably couldn't even figure out how to start unless someone showed you or you read the manual.

Re:So what should we do?

[BronsCon]

That's not self-driving, that's lane-keeping. There is a huge difference between the two. Insanely huge.

Further, it's a nonstandard feature, precisely the kind of thing I flat-out said I'd review the manual for:

Beyond that, all I need from the manual is ... a reference for anything nonstandard.

Here you're calling me an idiot and a moron, insinuating that I'm poor (never been able to afford a 2013 Ford Fusion) and/or a child (a bedtime? really?), all the while acting like all of the above yourself. And all this talk of tissues? Projecting, much?

Further, you might want to fact-check before you call me a moron when you are wrong. Lane-keeping has been out there for well longer than 15 years, Mitsubishi first released it in Japan in 1992, as an option on the Debonair. If I had to guess, that's longer than you've been alive, so I wouldn't expect you to know that. As for lane-correction (e.g. lane-keeping with steering assist), that's been out for 14 years, not 15, but you were close.

Re:So what should we do?

[BronsCon]

Do you acre to kindly point out the spelling errors in that post? As for grammar, I used the poor sentence structure of a 12 year old only in an attempt to better connect with your juvenile intellect. I have a wife who is sitting here laughing at you a little harder than I am, while you have one hell of an imagination; at least now I know what you use all those tissues for, though I'd rather I didn't.

Re:So what should we do?

[KGIII]

You don't have to read the entire manual - you should read or have shown to you the method to properly put the car into gear and remove it from gear if it's not clearly labeled. I've got some of the strangest shift patterns you've ever seen in some of my vehicles. I'd certainly not make any assumptions where shifting is concerned. If you can't access the manual and nobody is there to give you instruction, don't drive it. If you feel you must, do so in a safe area where there are no other people to get hurt. Then, once you've figured out how to safely operate the vehicle, drive it.

You don't have to know how to set the stereo. You do have to know how to operate the basic vehicle functions safely. Shifting is a pretty basic function. I can confidently say that I'd ask for instruction in this particular model but that's kind of cheating. (I know how this one shifts but I've never done it with this particular model - I'd be certain to ask or read the manual.)

I suppose you don't do a visual inspection of your vehicle prior to driving it? No worries, most people don't. Yes, yes I do. I'd say I do so roughly 80% of the time and 100% of the time if I'm in the midst of some longer trip, haven't driven that vehicle in a while, or have been pushing the vehicle hard. I like to drive, that includes track driving, rally driving, and I've even taken classroom lessons and then hired a coach and rented exotics to laps at Nurburgring. On the road, it's not just my life that I'm risking. I know how to operate the vehicle and that the vehicle is exhibiting signs of being properly maintained.

Re:So what should we do?

[BronsCon]

Damn, a typo; what ever will I do? Clearly, I meant "care", rather than "acre". Have a field day with that, though.

Re:So what should we do?

[MrNaz]

The point isn't that one gets into an exotic car and sees something different. I've been in a few card with strange controls for the handbrake, but they are obviously different with pull shafts or foot pedals and releases. This is a case where they made the operation completely different, while looking like a standard control. So someone gets in, looks around, thinks "yep this all looks familiar I can go now" and only finds out later that it is different. Even if they do know, the muscle memory associated with decades of having it work a certain way mean that unless you are paying close attention, it's easy to forget and do the old movement.

E.g., in my Dad's Volvo, I often start the wipers when going for the indicator. It's annoying, but after a few minutes of driving, my brain has adjusted and I'm OK with it. But I make that mistake a few times every time I drive that car, which is only a few times a year. Luckily, that mistake isn't something that can result in a dangerous situation. The worst is that turning on the indicator signal is delayed by a second or two, and I get laughed at by my Dad.

Key operational controls should either work the same, or look and feel completely different to ensure that users' muscle memory doesn't result in inadvertent operation.

Re:So what should we do?

[BronsCon]

Dude. What is your hard-on for me? Seriously.

At least you're entertaining in the other two threads; this is just weak, though.

Re:So what should we do?

[thechemic]

If I insinuated that you're poor, unintelligent, implied you're not able to attract females, or implied any other derogatory remark in your direction, I sincerely apologize. It is one thing for me to insinuate something, but if you took it personally and you took offense to it, perhaps it is because it struck a personal cord with you. If you're sad, get some help.

All of these black characters strung together are just words. It is only you that can give them meaning. Good night grasshoppah.

Re:So what should we do?

[Immerman]

Ugh, yeah, I hate those sorts of design decisions. I challenge the assertion that it's a brilliant idea though, except perhaps in a "sounds good in advertisements" way - there's a reason buttons tend to show up in groups, because individually they are an *extremely* limited interface.

You can't efficiently choose between more than two states with a single button - cycling is pretty much your only option without a non-trivial tap-code. And that means, on average, cycling through half of the states to get where you want to be. Multiple buttons can be used to reduce the problem by cycling through orthogonal options, or even offering a discrete button for each state.

Personally I prefer multistate switches: Twist the knob (or slide the slider) to the position that reflects your desire and be done with it. One single motion chooses between several options, and once you establish muscle-memory you can achieve precise results as soon as your hand finds a single control, even in complete darkness.

But sadly cost is typically a high design priority, and buttons are usually cheaper to integrate into a device than multistate switches, and the fewer the buttons the cheaper. Which leads to cool-sounding ad copy being used to spin cost-cutting compromises into slick-sounding "features"

Re:So what should we do?

[BronsCon]

I find the above remark hilarious in light of your accusation of bullying. Also, given that you've actively argued against yourself in the various discussion threads on this very page, I sincerely doubt that you do anything with any level of sincerity. I agree with your first post in this discussion, but it has become clear that you no longer do. You seem a bit unstable and I do hope you seek help.

Re:So what should we do?

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, I dunno, maybe we should teach Americans how to pull the parking brake handle up?

Re:So what should we do?

[Anonymous Coward]

The Corvette was probably a convertible...

Re:So what should we do?

[Harlequin80]

Hill hold is essential in slippery situations or where any roll backwards is a problem. Yes you can time the move from braking to acceleration really closely but the car will always move a little without a handbrake or a hill hold.

Re:So what should we do?

[jrumney]

From the looks of it, the shifter is basically an up/down switch feeding into a computer that is doing the actual shifting. Since the computer is doing the shifting anyway, a better design might be to automatically shift into PARK when the engine is shut off by default, unless an override button is pressed for those rare cases where you need to have the car in neutral with the engine shut off.

Re:So what should we do?

[Anonymous Coward]

that and unnecessarily switching back and forth between gears for unexplained reasons.

Re: So what should we do?

[stabiesoft]

Also a vette owner, the selling dealer explained it adnausium in addition to the fuel door release. You just cannot fix dumb. If you don't understand how to use a product why would you buy it? I've zero sympathy.

Re:So what should we do?

[Anonymous Coward]

Those Mercs are fucking stupid.

Re:So what should we do?

[Bangback]

I have this car. It's not how it works. It's not three presses. The shove to park normally works. There's an "easy" press up and a "hard" press up. The problem is if you do it a little softly you go into neutral instead. Since its not mechanical you tend to do it with a lighter touch than most cars. I had it happen to me once when I went to open the door and the car started rolling. I shifted into park. People need to pay attention when they drive. It is very easy to drive this car if you pay attention and it took no special instruction during the test drive or for relatives. I drive rental cars for work all the time and its no different than the standard "this brand does things a bit different" feel. This transmission shifter design supports the "Sport" mode in the transmission which optionally allows gear selection of the transmission . It lets you get out of sport both up and down with a hard press and is a more natural feel than the "separate gate" design. You do a hard press down to get into sport, soft presses up and down if you want to pick the gear, hard press up or down to get out. You can also paddle shift up and down. Its a pretty cool and effective design -- unfortunately sport mode itself isn't particularly fun. There have been several firmware upgrades to this transmission which I highly recommend (for shift quality and RPM gates). I also think it improved this problem.

Re:So what should we do?

[hawguy]

The shove to park normally works. There's an "easy" press up and a "hard" press up. The problem is if you do it a little softly you go into neutral instead.... I had it happen to me once when I went to open the door and the car started rolling... It is very easy to drive this car if you pay attention and it took no special instruction during the test drive or for relatives.

You just gave us special instruction to push more firmly into Park, and said that when you didn't follow those special instructions yourself, you accidentally left the car in neutral -- had you been parked on a hill, you may have lost control of the car. Why wouldn't you tell relatives about it before they drive the car? Don't you like them?

Sounds like it *does* need special instruction and without that instruction, it's a hazard to those that aren't familiar with it.

Re:So what should we do?

[sims 2]

I've seen it done once.
Most people only use P-R-N-D. Park is all the way to one end so its easy to do without looking.
Drive however you really need to look at the indicator as if you don't you may find yourself doing 65 on the highway in L/1.

To make a long story short it runs the engine rpm too high engine over heats, oil pump fails and the engine locks up.

You could probably put a stop on the shifter so it wouldn't go into the lower gears most of the time. You could also make the console go ding when the oil pump fails.

Actually yeah an active warning for loss of oil pressure sounds like a really good idea someone should look into that. Even a high temp warning would be nice.

Why isn't that standard already? If its acceptable for it do go ding ding seatbelt ding why not ding ding your engines on fire ding?

Then again it might be standard on new vehicles today newest vehicle I've got is iirc a 2009 model.

Re:So what should we do?

[Moridineas]

You'll be glad to know that Holmes has been so satisfied with their design that they've rolled it out across their product line.

I have a Holmes dual-fan window unit with the same one-button design. Its operational modes include off, low, high, and then 4 temperature-controlled variants of low and 4 temperature-controlled variants of high. There's one control button that you have to press repeatedly. Nine button presses to go from "low" to "off". What the hell is wrong with designers.

Re:So what should we do?

[SNRatio]

Why is re-inventing the wheel called progress? What is wrong with the old system?

This is the old system: paddle shifters have been around for decades. The problem is this implementation is too similar to the traditional automatic shift pattern. Vaguely related: Audi put the gas and brake pedals close together on cars in the mid 80's, something that was traditional on performance cars (heel n' toe). But in the US it meant people accidentally stomped on the gas instead of the brake.

Re:So what should we do?

[jader3rd]

and making confusing differences just to be "cool" and "edgy" is just going to cause problems like this.

Is it possible that the standard layout is patented or some such nonsense, and they didn't want to get sued under a similar look and feel lawsuit?

Re:So what should we do?

[KGIII]

> Key operational controls should either work the same, or look and feel completely different to ensure that users' muscle memory doesn't result in inadvertent operation.

I'm going to have to disagree with that sentiment. I'd rather avoid the lowest common denominator as an end-goal and I'd rather we actually only let people drive who are going to operate their vehicle safely. The onus is on the driver to know what the required switches do and where they're located, within reason - I don't think I'm really asking all that much, prior to operating the vehicle on a public road.

Put your seatbelt on, find the light controls, the wiper controls, figure out how to use them, figure out how the shifting actually works, learn the shift pattern, test brakes and clutch to ensure they're working, figure out the temperature controls well enough, leave the radio off for the first bit - it's a new car, make sure everything is adjusted, ensure the proper documentation is in place, that sort of thing... No, not every time you get in the car, every time you get in an unfamiliar car...

For fun, I'd like to put you into a mid-1980s Saab 900. You'll be forever just figuring out how to get it started. The shifting pattern's pretty easy but some models had a little variations.

At any rate, always at least do a quick walk around the car prior to operation. Lift the hood once in a while and check fluids and fill them or have someone else do it. Check the wear indicators on the tires, check to see (or use a gauge) that the tires are inflated properly, check the spare and the jack, see if there's a tool kit, make sure you've got the "key" if you have locked lug nuts, check wiper condition, etc... No, not every time - but certainly the first time you're going to drive something.

I don't think a decent familiarity is too much to ask for - doubly so, if you own it. There are still features on my car that I don't know how to use. I'll probably never learn how to use an app to control my stereo or to bluetooth to my stereo. It's gotta plug... I don't know how to use the GPS - I didn't want that but it was not optional. I have a separate GPS and my phone has one. But, I know how to operate the vehicle safely and, if I want to learn those things, I'll either read the manual or I'll just go sit in the car, at idle, and poke buttons until I figure it out.

At any rate, I'd type more but that's the gist of it. I have to go have a cup of cocoa with the missus. She wants to watch a scary movie and wants company. I'll almost surely bring my laptop but it'll be a minute and I want to make sure I send this before I forget.

I don't think that I'm asking too much here. I also don't support aiming for the lowest common denominator or limiting design choices because people were unwilling to take the time to learn to operate their tools. I must ask, do you think we should do the same things with computers? Should they be design limited to avoid people getting confused and not having to learn how to use their tools or should we have choices and accept that some people are just too not going to follow best practice?

I'm an automobile enthusiast - I've mentioned this, and even shown some pics of my favorites, countless times. It's disheartening to hear you suggest that I should be limited simply because people won't take the time to learn how to safely operate the tools they are using. Also, a Volvo can be a lot of fun. I've a restored and modified 1982 Volvo 245. It is not factory. It's a whole bowl of fun. It's also like a tank. Meh, I'd probably let you drive that. I've other stuff that you'd find more interesting. If you're not going to take the time to operate them properly, I'd probably not let you drive them.

At any rate, that's disheartening to read. Even more so at Slashdot. I don't think a cup of cocoa can fix that. But now she's back upstairs and poking me. So, I gotta go. At least she spared you from one of my novellas?

Re:So what should we do?

[Anonymous Coward]

How'd eating your words taste amicusnycl as apk made you eat them http://slashdot.org/comments.p... ? Like your foot in your mouth washed down with the bitter taste of SELF-defeat perhaps? R O T F L M A O!

Re:So what should we do?

[ncc74656]

That said, it might confuse people who've driven cars with shifter stalks, but those haven't been on the market in something like 40 years and haven't been common for at least 30

"Not common for at least 30 years?" Pretty much every truck uses column shift if it has an automatic. My first new vehicle out of college was an '02 S-10; it was a column-shift automatic. So were all of the U-Hauls I've ever driven, ranging from 10' to 26'.

Re: So what should we do?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well... instead of taking action one time with one lever, they "simplified" it, and now you have to actuate the same mechanism several times in order to achieve the same result. This would definitely be considered "progress" in the eyes of Apple.

Besides Apple, dirt bikes and race cars also use sequential transmissions. Wait, WTF point were you trying to make?

Yes, motorcycles use sequential shift standard transmissions - but they don''t disguise it to look like an ordinary gear shift. For motorcycles, one foot works the shift lever, the other the rear brakes. No mistaking that. Also, since it uses a clutch, there is no "park" - just stick it in gear.

Cool story, you forgot to turn that into a stab at Apple. I think.

Re:So what should we do?

[Anonymous Coward]

Counter point: Driving training and the test to get a license to drive is what is considered "The Manual".

Bonus point: Cars with advanced electronic aid, beyond spin control on the wheels, and it won't be common for another 10-20 years. For those, you need to read the manual, to find things like "how do I turn it off" to "what is the signs that its working?". We simply don't live in a world where car configurations are weird, since a lot was solved in the 1890s and 1910s.

Re:So what should we do?

[Anonymous Coward]

If your friend loans you their car do you read the manual? Or do you, like most people would, assume that the car's gear shift works like every other car out there?

I wouldn't be so quick to criticize other people because one car manufacturer decided to change what has been a defacto standard for longer than you have probably been alive.

And how is adding steps progress? I really hope you were trying to be sarcastic, and if that is the case I apologies for my mildly snarky comment.

What de facto standard? I'm only 30 and I've seen at least a few quite different shifters, and I know for damn sure that muscle memory doesn't carry from car to car even if it's the same logical layout.

Re:So what should we do?

[Anonymous Coward]

(rickest) reinventing the wheel is exactly what allows us to travel 80mph without even feeling it. the original wheel fell apart at about 5mph after 100 yards. now they're rubber, self-healing, last 4000 times longer. whoever intended the phrase "you're reinventing the wheel" to be an insult was an idiot.

This gearshift, however, is anything but sound design.

Re:So what should we do?

[aXis100]

I often do similar, occasionally putting it in 2 instead of D and wondering why the response feels so different. That said I'm only doing 50km/hr (31mph) at the time.

If people can manage to to 65mph in low gear without realising they should probably hand their license back in.

Re:So what should we do?

[BronsCon]

You'll have to forgive my ignorance of that fact; every truck I've driven in my lifetime has been a manual, with the exception of a U-Haul pickup and 3 U-Haul vans I've driven in the past 5 years, which interestingly enough had shift levers right where the stick would have been had they been manual. I said "car" for a reason. That being said, thank you for the correction, I did not know column shifts were still in production as I have not seen one since I was 5.

Re:So what should we do?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why is re-inventing the wheel called progress?

I have a better idea. Why don't people just use their parking brake instead.

Re:So what should we do?

[sims 2]

The trick is having studded tires and all four windows down because the a/c is out and its 90F outside. At 65 mph you can't even hear the engine over the wind and tires.

Re:So what should we do?

[Dutch Gun]

I recently drove my dad's car when dropping my folks off at the airport, and noticed that the gearshift was bifurcated. P-R-N-D, and then you had to shift the lever over to explicitly use specific gears. Given that the 99% use case is just putting the car in D and stepping on the gas, this makes a lot of sense to me.

The *worst* design was my mom's car, which, instead of stopping automatically at D after pressing the release, like my car does, instead stopped at the location just below it - either second or third gear, I can't remember which at the moment. Who the hell would purposefully design something like that?

It's especially easy to stay in the wrong gear if you're not used to the sound and feel of the car you're driving. And with an automatic, drivers are trained to NOT have to look at the RPM gauge, so unless they can hear the difference, I can't really blame people for making this mistake.

Re:So what should we do?

[Dutch Gun]

The "standard" automatic shifter layout has been around for many decades. I can't imagine there would be any patents still valid that prohibit its free use. At least, I certainly hope not, or our patent system is broken far worse than I fear.

If anything, I would suspect the opposite - that this new design scheme was patented, and the auto maker was hoping to popularize it as an exclusive feature that the competition doesn't have. Nothing wrong with that, but it seems like greater care should be taken when screwing around with long-standardized core operational controls.

Re:So what should we do?

[Dog-Cow]

You win the smug asshole of the century award. Your prize aught to be a one-way trip off the nearest cliff, but unfortunately the Universe doesn't work that way.

Re:So what should we do?

[Dutch Gun]

Sometimes in life, ubiquity and commonality trumps design logic. Look at the qwerty keyboard scheme. At this point, there's so much momentum in that layout, there's really no point in trying to "improve" it for the vast majority of people. I certainly have no desire to try to rewire decades worth of muscle memory to change schemes. The "save" icon is another one that occasionally get hipster designers foaming at the mouth - a floppy disc, for pete's sake, which kids under sixteen probably have never even seen in person. The imperial system in the US was also far more difficult to dislodge with the metric system than many believed. The steering wheel, petal arrangement, and more or less standardized shifting levers are just another example.

Whatever benefit you think switching schemes gives you, there's an argument to be made that it may not be worth the short-term pain during the transition. It's tough to know where that boundary lies, I think. Metric vs imperial? Yeah, I'm sort of sorry we didn't switch. Changing the behavior of a car's shifter? Probably not worth it.

Re:So what should we do?

[thinkwaitfast]

Like a Morse keyer?

Re:So what should we do?

[thinkwaitfast]

Do you rtfm when you borrow your friend's car?

Re:So what should we do?

[Hognoxious]

It's not necessarily the UXtards' fault. Components cost money.

If they could have made it with no buttons they would have.

Re:So what should we do?

[Barsteward]

my guess woiuld be that they are trying to remove as much mechanical operation as possible to save weight (and possibly assembly time), even steering and hand brakes have gone electrical in some cars

Re:So what should we do?

[Anonymous Coward]

something else?

Yes try putting the fecking hand brake on before you exit said vehicle that way it wont roll away if you have fucked up with the park position ( Oh sorry of course yo plonkers dont use a hand brake you call it the Emergency brake ( load of bollocks it is a PARKING BRAKE to be applied when PARKING or STOPPING for more than a second or so )) .

Maybe you will llearn to drive then .

Re: So what should we do?

[Anonymous Coward]

I have this stupid heater. I just unplug it.

Re:So what should we do?

[Anonymous Coward]

The Prius has a very different shifter and a separate button for park, that's right, but it's not needed anyway, since park is automatically engaged whenever the engine is turned off.

This makes it failsafe with the engine off. Press the power-off button on the Prius, the engine goes out and the park mode engages immediately.

Why should any car ever be designed differently? That's the best possible operation for 99,9% of all situations. For that one time during the entire lifetime of the car when it has to be towed away with the engine off and it's not possible to lift at least the front wheels off the ground? (The Prius can do that as well, there is an easy override for that with a special press of power-on button and the brake pedal, it just can't be accidentally done - read the manual)

Re: So what should we do?

[zaphirplane]

If you are appealing to the hipsters the South Park bike design http://southpark.wikia.com/wik...
has a lock on the market share

Re:So what should we do?

[Anonymous Coward]

One more thing: of course it is possible to leave the car with the engine on and the car in drive or neutral, but it will sound a terrible alarm if you open the door in that mode.

Re:So what should we do?

[AmiMoJo]

I have both digital and analogue Hakko irons. I think you misunderstand what the interface is designed to do. To be fair, the English manual doesn't explain it all that well.

Hakko irons are used in production environments. You don't want stray button presses to alter the iron temperature. You want a very definite sequence of inputs to do that. The newer ones have a little plastic key that blocks input when removed, but they retained the old button press sequence because people were already familiar with it.

It's kinda like the emergency/parking brake in a car. Often you have to do two things at the same time to release it, e.g. hold a stiff button down and move a lever. You don't want it to be too easy to disengage.

Re:So what should we do?

[MrDoh!]

Reminds me... BMW i3 Wifey hates me tootling around in my Smart Car, and for some reason though the BWM i3 would be better. Went to the showroom, and... so unintentionally hilarious. Sales guy is smooth, he's got the answers to all the obvious questions, the range, the option of the small gas motor for extra range, the 'if all your doing is driving 10 miles there and back, you'll be fine' stuff. And we got to the 'gas cap' thing, the cover over the power socket that you actually plug the power into. It's electrically operated. The showroom car was totally flat, "err, how do you open the power cap thingy if it's battery operated but the battery is flat?" "hmm, that's odd, but let me show you the... " "no, hang on, this is kinda a bit design issue for me, if I can't open the cap..." "yes, yes of course, let me look into that for you while we get you a test drive" and he calls over the other sales guy to handle that, as he then goes crazy at the 'youngsters' "I WAS AWAY TWO WEEKS, YOU HAD ONE JOB, ONE JOB! MAKE SURE THE ELECTRIC CAR WAS PLUGGED IN! If any of you idiots lose me this sale, you're all fired" lots of arm waving, wildly gesturing, probably thought we couldn't hear him outside through the glass, but the whole showroom was watching, and I was offering helpful commentary. We went for a test drive, back in 15-20 minutes and 5 young sales associates and the first guy were clambering all over the car, pushing/prodding everything you could thing of, all the optional extras were on the floor as they continued to look. The test drive sales guy realises what's happening and takes us to look at the different models, and one last look over the shoulder see's the 5 people still all over the car, one of them underneath the car, as the head sales guy is flipping furiously through the think manual. 10 minutes later, we're back, the port is open and the power cable is plugged in, no lights on the car yet, they must have /really/ let it drain out "oh, all sorted?" "oh yes, no problem at all really, there's just a tiny hidden button behind the rear seat that you need to press, no problem at all really..." Sure everyone in that showroom knows where the manual cover pop open button is now though.

Re:So what should we do?

[Waccoon]

Boredom.

My dad insists on using these stupid touch-sensitive dimmer switches in him home, where you hold down on the surface for a certain amount of time to adjust the amount of light in the room. They drive my mother crazy, because simply turning the lights on and off requires just the right touch over just the right amount of time. What's wrong with a simple slider?

Some people are more enthralled by the novelty of a quirky design than they are in the design being efficient, reliable, and intuitive. They seek out things that are bizarre over things that work.

Re:So what should we do?

[Waccoon]

Come on. When was the last time you read a car manual except to get the size of wiper blade replacements?

Re:So what should we do?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's kinda like the emergency/parking brake in a car. Often you have to do two things at the same time to release it, e.g. hold a stiff button down and move a lever. You don't want it to be too easy to disengage.

Wow, I haven't seen one of those in forever. You know the stiff button is easy to press in if you just pull the lever up slightly first, right?

Re:So what should we do?

[Anonymous Coward]

Jaguar too. A lot of their automatics are managed by a selector knob where the gear lever used to be. It has the familiar modes, but they are selected with rotation and there's feedback everywhere, from the knob itself to the dashboard. It's easier to use from the perspective of a lifetime of manual gearshifts. The wiggly lumpy lever is very cumbserome at first.

Re: So what should we do?

[Hognoxious]

adnausium

Can't find it. Is it one of the transition elements?

Re:So what should we do?

[Anonymous Coward]

Eat better? The Impy the Impiuos Imp can find 472 different "better" ways to shove Mc Donalds into his face.

I pretty sure no sane definition of "eating better" allows for McDonald's. At least in quantities that approach an habit. You could get a doctor to tell you you can eat McDonald's every other week, on a cheat day or something. But if you want to eat better, in a way any doctor would actually consider a healthy diet, there's zero chances you're gonna have McDonald's regularly... Eating better is exactly what you describe as eating less: you eat less junk food, less sodas, etc. And it doesn't necessarily have to be less in total volume or something. I'm pretty sure no one is getting fat if they just eat lettuce with tomato.

Re: So what should we do?

[Waccoon]

I remember attending an air show, and in the middle of the event next to the food court, there was a local car dealership with a Corvette convertible on display. Attendees were able to sit in the car for a short time. When I sat in the car and closed the door, I realized very quickly that the doors had automatically locked, and was unable to exit the car. I was glad it was a convertible and could easily get the attention of the dealers who were busy mingling with the audience.

All this time, I suspected that the car had been modified for display, and normal Corvettes weren't built that way. Am I to believe that being unable to unlock the doors with the power disabled is a standard feature?

Re:So what should we do?

[Anonymous Coward]

But did you know it's P-R-N-D-L ... actually the part after D can vary, some cars have 3-2-L, others have 2-L, some have 2-1 ... well, you get the idea.

I don't really know this new gear shift, but I've seen some Toyota Yaris cars with a R-N-E shift with a + - on the side of the E (when you park you leave it in Neutral like a manual gear).

Re:So what should we do?

[Anonymous Coward]

They stop making push button shifters because women broke their finger nails using them. Probably wouldn't be a problem today with softer button etc.

Re: So what should we do?

[Anonymous Coward]

Or just use the handbrake? Same as you would in a manual car (you usually park these in neutral unless the handbrake is knackered and you want to help it by using engine braking effect)

Re: So what should we do?

[DigiShaman]

Well yes, that's why some cars have the gears staggered down the line instead of a strait throw up and down. For example, in the 2010 RAV4, by feel it's from P, to the right, and strait all the way down; where it ends is D. 4 through L are all staggered. I personally like this arrangement as I can flip between D and 4 with a fick of my wrist left or right.

Now take a 2009 Honda Civic as an example: half the time I'll throw it into D or 3. It's rather annoying.

Re:So what should we do?

[Anonymous Coward]

All kinds of people RTFM when they buy a car - people who dont are just fucking morons.

Re: So what should we do?

[shortscruffydave]

You park in gear because even a good handbrake can fade. The HB in my last car was rock solid, and passed all the relevant tasks required by law (UK MoT) but if I parked on a steep incline in very cold weather, it car would slowly begin to roll. I think most driving instructors here teach you to park in gear (and to check for being in neutral before starting the car). Advanced technique is to angle your wheels so if the car does roll, it will roll in such a way that the front wheels catch on the kerb to stop it)

Re:So what should we do?

[Anonymous Coward]

If you're the type of person that buys a 3500 pound object that can go 100+ MPH and fail to read the manual which results in the injury of another individual, you're an idiot.

If you buy a Jeep Grand Cherokee, your manual would correctly show that the weight is more like 4500 lb.

Re:So what should we do?

[dywolf]

needed a rental while car was in the shop.
did usual thing where pick the smallest thing possible online, and as usual, it was out of stock by time got there, so get free upgrade.
turned out, they were out of everything but trucks.
ended up with a 2015 Ram Big Horn for price of tiny Kia.

at first I couldn't even find the gear shift.
nothing on the steering column.
nothing in the middle of the floor.

then I saw it.
a small rotary knob on the dash below the radio.

now sure, there's been various simplified and electronic and hybrid transmissions for awhile (like my Hyundai, with the subsection on the side for manual gear selection). but that really threw me, and now I knew what my grandfather must have felt like when he first encounted a hybrid transmission ("it cant be a manual clutch without a clutch pedal").

anyway. nice truck...but I still cant say I was impressed by the gear shift.
not a fan.

but at least it was bigger and far away from the air control knobs...that could have gotten interesting.

(not a gear head; if I misstated any terms, sue me. the meaning should be clear)

Re:So what should we do?

[SargentDU]

They stop making push button shifters because women broke their finger nails using them. Probably wouldn't be a problem today with softer button etc.

If I recall correctly, the push button transmission shifter did result in issues like when driving 50 mph a push of a button would put you in Park with bad things happening.

Re:So what should we do?

[Admiral_Grinder]

Right, but we have the tech these days to preform idiot checks. For the most part, a automatic gear shifter is a interface to the computer, not the transmission directly.

Re:So what should we do?

[Admiral_Grinder]

"Also you do realise modern vehicles imitate the clicking noise the bimetal blinker switches made just because people expect it." The in my wife's car cut out the other day. One of things you can easily ignore until it is not there.

Re:So what should we do?

[Hognoxious]

If you mean a column shift, I rented a car (was a midsize Buick) and also a Toyota van with one. Late 90's.

There's a practical reason in the van - it allows an extra seating place in the middle.

Re:So what should we do?

[necro81]

The old MOPAR push button tranny actuator is prior art.

But these buttons would be on a touchscreen, and there'd be some sort of computer algorithm running behind the scenes. So, like, tooootally novel.

Re:So what should we do?

[Hognoxious]

Which is great, because software never has bugs. And why the hell would you want to switch out of D while you're moving unless the throttle is jammed, which can't possibly happen because it's computer controlled too.

Re: So what should we do?

[Coren22]

Reading the article (I know..), this is a very odd shifter lever. It isn't a manual gear shift, it is P R N D/S (the newfangled automatic manual selection transmission), but it always returns to center, it doesn't stay at the park position. Also, if they car isn't in park, it doesn't shut off the engine, which is an odd design choice as well. I am not entirely sure how you actually put it in park, it sounds like you hold the button and push it all the way forward, but that seems like it would just work and not be weird enough to put people off. I'm really not sure what is going on here.

Re: So what should we do?

[Anonymous Coward]

Brake fade is caused by the hydraulic fluid vaporising. Handbrakes are operated by a cable.

Re:So what should we do?

[RavenLrD20k]

That really depends on the strength of the spring they use in the button. Some cars, button's locked until the lever is lifted a bit and won't press for nothing. Other cars will let you push the button while the lever is still at rest...but it takes a good bit of force to do so, and when you lift the lever the button could either be very loose, very stiff, or anything in between. It all depends on what the manufacturer decided to spec for the design.

Re:So what should we do?

[Anonymous Coward]

Ever bought a used car? Especially a very well worn used car? *Especially* a fixer upper that you plan to repair yourself to save some money?

Clearly not. I have. I buy a "new to me" car every 2 years or so. Guess how many still had an owner's manual with them? That's right, zero. At least where I am, that's legal (selling a car with no owner's manual). And buying a replacement is expensive, since car companies have seen fit to only offer owners manuals for their newer vehicles online (you know, the ones that still have them sitting where they belong, in the glove box). The rest you have to hope someone on eBay decided to sell it, or it's still in print, either can cost an arm and a leg.

Fortunately for me and the environment, most all cars drive the same way (and additional features, like ABS, work similarly between all brands), so I don't have to worry about these old cars going to the landfill because the manual was lost, and I don't have to worry about accidents due to idiotically designed shifter systems.

Re:So what should we do?

[flappinbooger]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

James May on Top Gear driving a Mercedes with a Dogleg Reverse gear.

Similar problem.

Re:So what should we do?

[Grishnakh]

No, it's completely impossible. The standard layout has been used for decades. They went to widespread usage of having the shifter on the floor in the center console area back in the 80s, and that was just moving the standard layout from the steering wheel where it used to be. You can't sue someone for look-and-feel for something that everyone's been doing for decades.

The reason they did this is likely to save money: the standard AT layout requires a shift lever in the center console that can be shifted, upon pressing a release button, into one of several positions: P, R, N, D (and 1 and 2 and maybe 3 on older cars). On older cars, the lever was connected by cable to the transmission and the position set some hydraulic valves or something (the transmissions used hydraulic "computers" to decide when to shift); on new cars, it's just an input to the transmission control computer. But because it has 4 different positions, lever-actuated, and maybe a couple more (+ and - for manumatics), Chrysler probably figured out they could save money by changing to what's basically just a fancy rocker switch, with a center neutral position and one momentary-actuation position on each side. The momentary positions are probably sensed with simple industry-standard microswitches. This is simpler and cheaper, hardware-wise, than the 4-position shifter, but it's less functional since you can't just change directly into the position you want, you have to go sequentially. But hey, if they can save $2 per car, that's worth it, right?

Re:So what should we do?

[Anonymous Coward]

Diet is for Health
Exercise is for weight loss

Sadly, so many people like you get this wrong and then complain when they gain weight while dieting.

Re:So what should we do?

[Cro Magnon]

I can relate to that. The wipers on my Nissan work opposite to the way they did on my Saturn. So for quite awhile when I wanted to switch from low-speed to high, I turned them off instead, or when I tried to switch them off, I'd switch them to high. Also, though the radio worked the same, it was positioned just different enough that I had to look at it instead of doing it by touch.

Luckily, the important parts of every car I've driven in were the same.

Re:So what should we do?

[drinkypoo]

It doesn't matter what you want, the most modern automatic transmissions (e.g. ZF HP9) already don't have a linkage. They are too complex to operate with a hydraulic valve body, even for limp home mode. Consequently, where it is used (which is practically everywhere) there is already no drawback to a pushbutton interface. Pushing P while moving could select N, and apply the EPB (electronic parking brake) automatically when the driver comes to a stop, then shift into park. Pushing N would do the same, sans brake and autoshift.

Re:So what should we do?

[Anonymous Coward]

I actually had this heater (or a slightly different model which was black). It lasted about a winter and a half, and was as annoying as you'd imagine: Pressing the button 9 times to get the setting you want is annoying, but human nature for such a repetitive task is to "press fast", which inevitably leads to passing the setting you want, and having to take it around the horn again...so its really like 19 times. Of course, the first thing to wear out was the damn button!

Re:So what should we do?

[drinkypoo]

They stop making push button shifters because women broke their finger nails using them.

Nonsense. My first car was a 1960 Dodge Dart with the pushbutton automatic, it was easier to change gears than to change radio presets.

Re:So what should we do?

[ripvlan]

To answer your question: hold back progress to protect people? You need to make it safe by design. Protect people first.

But I also have to ask: Is building something foreign simply defined as progress? I drove a Chrysler/Dodge that had this same stick in it - what a PITA. Plus I also began to wonder "gee - how many people fail to put it in Park or are in N rather than a desired gear" It is not an intuitive design - You Have To Look. You press the stick - and then wait. and then press it again and again. Works fine for a range (e.g.Volume) control. But frustrating when position is critical. Manual shift and current Auto are position based - so people don't need to Look, just muscle memory.

As a designer - during your FMEA, you need to ask questions around Safety. Think of the ways in which user-confusion could lead to "failure."

And nobody reads the manual. No seriously. In my line of work we call this Labeling (all those warning labels you see on devices like "hot" "warning" etc). Labeling is never a mitigator for safety. Assume nobody reads it. The device must protect the consumer By Design. Even possible/obvious misuse (if you can anticipate it - design for it).

Re:So what should we do?

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem for engineering has always been youngsters, fresh to the firm who see that almost all of the interesting problems have been solved long ago. No room to prove to people what geniuses they are and how backwards and dated their predecessors were. They can't wait to put their mark on things for no other reason than making it "modern" even if it reduces functionality or reduces reliability. They believe that the complexity of a system is directly proportional to the intelligence of the designer(s). The result is often comically If they can design a complex gearshift system, obviously they are smarter than those old guys before them who designed a "dumb" mechanical one.

Engineering and design schools should do more to encourage the simplest design that accomplishes the objectives with the least failure modes.

Re:So what should we do?

[chaotixx]

If you're the type of engineer that modifies a standardized interface, but doesn't give any sort of visual clue to the modification because you expect everyone to RTFM, you're an idiot. Do you sit and read the manual every time you rent a car?

Re: So what should we do?

[BarbaraHudson]

Cool story, you forgot to turn that into a stab at Apple. I think.

Why bother - I'm sure there's an app for that. :-)

Re:So what should we do?

[jandrese]

I have never rented a car that came with the manual. Usually there is just a sticker in the glove compartment with the rental company emergency number.

Re:So what should we do?

[Anonymous Coward]

Most horrible designs I've ever seen originate with a manager somewhere uttering some variance of, "Why should we pay a designer? I could design that myself."

The counter example to your Holmes design is my 2010 Honda Accord. Functions that are very seldom used were given their own dedicated button on the dashboard, while commonly used functions were buried in a menu of the car's dashboard screen menu. Why the fuck do I need a fucking dedicated button on the dashboard to set the CD/Radio to display song titles?

Re: So what should we do?

[Lije Baley]

The dial shifter in late-model Ram trucks handles this, as well as automatically putting itself into park if you forget when you turn off the key.

Re:So what should we do?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Panic that is until you learn that if you press the brake pedal hard the brakes stay locked on even with your foot off the brake and auto disengage as you start to move forward." Fuck in hell - really? Next time I have to drive that bloody Chevy truck I'll test that.

Re:So what should we do?

[beanpoppa]

My 2012 Jetta with a standard transmission comes pretty close... Reverse is to the extreme upper left, past the first/second slot. Theoretically, you have to push the nob down to engage over to it, but the amount of force and travel downwards is trivial that often, in the effort to put it into first, I end up in reverse. Visually, there isn't much difference either. Many times, I thought that I was in first, when I was actually in Reverse.

Re:So what should we do?

[hambone142]

I rented a Chrysler car that had a *knob* in the center console for a gear shift. Talk about a stupid design! Try making a fast turnabout with it. It was a real PITA.

Re:So what should we do?

[phorm]

So you read through the whole manual on every vehicle you've ever driven then?
Or have you perhaps just driven a few cars and understood the the principal of steering wheels, gas, gearshift, and brakes is pretty universal except when idiots f*** with it?

Re:So what should we do?

[JazzLad]

+1 sad truth

Re: So what should we do?

[drewsup]

Except on new drivers, my daughter freaked out cuz i left her Corsa in gear with the hand brake on, she was actually TAUGHT this by the driving instructor, I tried getting the idea through her head that on a hill, a handbrake may fade, and its best to have some kind of backup, but to no avail. Couple that with some cars that are stick shift have a clutch switch, car wont turn over unless clutch is engaged, too many people who dont know how to drive sending the car through the garage door upon startup i guess...

Re:So what should we do?

[JazzLad]

I like my
1-3-5
_2-4-R

though I prefered my VW putting R before 1

Re: So what should we do?

[OrangeTide]

I have a neutral on my bike, it's between 1st and 2nd gear and it's a little tricky to move into.

The main difference is that bikers can count to at least 5, so they know what gear they are in, but cagers can't count.

Re:So what should we do?

[Grishnakh]

WTF? I have one of the new Hakko soldering stations, and its UI is admittedly wonky, with only two buttons. You have to keep the instructions handy for setting anything because it's so non-intuitive.

However, if you paid over $500 for one of these things, you're a complete idiot. You can get them for under $100 on Amazon and from various other tool vendors. They're not expensive. It's the Metcals that are expensive, and those don't let you adjust the temperature at all; they just have an on/off button.

The Hakko works well once it's set up. You shouldn't have to adjust temperature in normal operation; the whole point of a temperature-controlled soldering station is to set the tip temperature and leave it, and it adjusts the power as necessary to maintain the temperature.

Re:So what should we do?

[Anonymous Coward]

I, for one, think BronsCon is a troll, but you really should have said 'fewer' not 'less' if you're going to correct his grammar.

Re:So what should we do?

[Mal-2]

>the car will always move a little without a handbrake or a hill hold.

Or a heel-toe. I have never had the need to do it with subtlety, but I can sure use the technique to hold the car still until the driveline engages.

Re:So what should we do?

[Grishnakh]

They're not exactly "removing mechanical operation", I'm sure they did it to save money because a shift mechanism with multiple points (P, R, N, D) is more expensive to make than this thing which is really just a glorified rocker switch. It probably just uses standard microswitches (one on each side of the center neutral position), the same as in your mouse, and costs a fraction as much as the multi-position shifters.

As for electric steering, that's a BIG improvement. That's not to save money, it's to save fuel. Hydraulic steering was a major gas waster on cars because the engine had to drive the hydraulic pump constantly, even if you weren't steering and were just cruising on the highway and didn't need any assist at all (you don't need assist at higher speeds, only at low speeds). First they went to electro-hydraulic steering, with an electric motor running the hydro pump so you could turn if off or down at higher speeds, and now they've gone full electric with a motor driving the steering shaft directly to give you assist. It's not drive-by-wire: you're still turning the shaft that links to the rack and pinion and turns the wheel, you're just getting an assist from an electric motor bolted to the shaft. It'll probably be a long time before they change to full drive-by-wire for steering because of safety concerns.

As for hand brakes, I can only guess that's some kind of cost-cutting move (probably simpler factory assembly), or maybe to free up space in the cabin. It seems like a bad idea to me because the parking brake doubles as an emergency brake, and keeping it fully mechanical is a good backup mechanism, even if the rear brakes aren't all that powerful.

My 2015 Mazda has electric steering and it's excellent: it has great road feedback, and fuel economy is excellent. However it also has a traditional mechanical parking brake, and also the standard 4-position automatic shifter (not this stupid Chrysler rocker switch thing) with manual override and paddle shifters. Mazda's generally known for their driving dynamics and making drivers' cars, so they'll probably be the last to jump on some of these dumb ideas, if ever.

Re:So what should we do?

[thevirtualcat]

Curious. Most automatics I've driven can be pulled from R to D without pressing the button (console) or pulling the shifter forward (column.) They'll stop at D unless you have the button pushed. (Similarly, you can usually go to N from D or any of the lower gears without pushing the button.)

When I get into a car I'm not familiar with that has a traditional automatic, it's always the same: Push button, one click to go from P to R. Release button. All the way down for D.

Of course, I still check to make sure it's not doing something weird, but that almost never fails. Though not as relevant these days as a lot of cars these days are ditching the traditional PRNDL for dials, push buttons and sequential selectors.

Re:So what should we do?

[Grishnakh]

See, that's the way to do it: if you're going to change the operation of something that people are used to and is highly standardized, make it a big change so no one is confused by it, thinking it's like the old way. By making it totally different, the operator is forced to pay attention and learn the new method.

Leave it to Toyota to figure this out, and leave it to stupid Chrysler not to.

Re:So what should we do?

[Grishnakh]

Push-button start isn't so clear-cut. It has real benefits: it keeps you from running the starter for too long, and it keeps you from screwing up and trying to start the engine when it's already running. That last one is easier to do these days because engines have gotten so quiet; someone with poor hearing (like anyone over 50) can easily not hear the engine running and try to re-start it, causing gear grinding. (It doesn't help that a lot of cars with ATs don't have tachometers any more, but you also can't really expect some granny driver to be that astute.)

The push-button start eliminates these problems, with the drawback that it's hard to turn off the engine in an emergency. And also, they're a bit of a pain if you want to just turn on the radio (in my car, you have to keep your foot off the brake when you press the start button to do this; you cycle between stereo-only, and power-to-everything-but-the-engine). In newer cars, they've tried to alleviate the emergency-off problem by making it so that either pressing-and-holding the start button turns it off, or pressing it repeatedly (as someone in a panic would).

What I'd like to see is a switch and a pushbutton: a rotary switch should let you select between "O", "I", and "II", with "O" being off, "I" being radio/infotainment-only, and "II" being full-power and ready to start the engine. Then have a separate momentary pushbutton for starting the engine. When you want to turn off the engine, you turn the rotary knob to "I" or "O". You would want to make the rotary switch hard to accidently bump though, so you don't wind up with a fiasco like what happened to GM. The rotary switch would make it easy to switch off your engine while leaving the stereo on. In my car, doing this requires pressing the start button while leaving the transmission in "drive", which isn't exactly intuitive.

Re: So what should we do?

[Anonymous Coward]

No, it's the government's responsibility to protect me from these money grubbing bastards. You'll disagree but guess which one of us will be correct when the lawsuits start flying?

Re:So what should we do?

[BKX]

No, it's not. I drive a manual without a hill hold feature. I've never even considered that such a feature would be nice to have. It's just unnecessary. To start on a hill, you let out the clutch enough to hold the car, while very quickly letting off the brake and touching the gas. Once gassed, let the clutch out the rest of the way and you're off. Doesn't matter if it's an icestorm on a hill or any other conditions; that's what you do. With a little practice, you can use that procedure without any roll-back at all, in any conditions, on any hill. Trust me; I do it all the time.

Re: So what should we do?

[Anonymous Coward]

You can long press it to turn it off.

Re:So what should we do?

[Grishnakh]

That's even worse than my Boxster, where they've locked the battery under a trunk lid that requires battery power to open...

I'm sure that's not a big problem. There's probably some terminals where you can attach a battery charger or jumper cables to power the car, which then lets you open the trunk lid.

If your battery is dead, that's not a problem: you just have the car towed to your Porsche dealership and let them apply this procedure to open the trunk lid and then replace the battery with a Genuine Porsche battery.

If you want to be able to just replace the dead battery in a parking lot with one you got at a local Autozone after being driven there by your buddy, you shouldn't have bought a Porsche.

Re: So what should we do?

[Lotharus]

A cable which can stretch. My parents have a Chrysler Grand Caravan which has an utterly useless parking brake; despite repeated tightenings, it's back to useless in short order (in this case I think it's the tensioning mechanism itself but still...cables stretch).

Re:So what should we do?

[beastofburdon]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

Re: So what should we do?

[sexconker]

With no power and the door closed, you cannot open the door in a Corvette without knowing about a small latch near the bottom of your seat.
The average person expects a door handle to be on the door where you use your hand to push the door open. The average person also expects levers hidden away near your seat to be for adjusting the seat.

There are dumb users and then there are dumb designs. This is a case of dumb design. It's like Apple and Google's shit where scrollbars and control icons are invisible until you mouse over them. It's super simple once you know about it, but there's zero indication of it otherwise, and you absolutely cannot expect someone to find it on their own without instruction, especially when they're elderly and baking to death in the hot car.

Re:So what should we do?

[UnderCoverPenguin]

I don't like the "time sensitive" touch switches either. My GF and I recently installed a different kind. If you tap it, it adjusts the light level according to where you tapped the switch pad - bottom fades to off, top to 100% on, elsewhere, proportionately. If you slide your finger up, the level increases proportionately to how far you slide your finger. Similar for sliding your finger down. Makes sense and is designed to resist accidental change by ignoring touches of more that 2 fingertips of area and slides not close to vertical.

Re:So what should we do?

[BronsCon]

The automatic trucks and vans I've been in have all had center consoles, which preclude that center seating arrangement. That might explain why I haven't seen it since the mid 80's.

Re:So what should we do?

[citizenr]

Production? manually with soldering iron? are you from 1985 too? Soldering stations in factory are used for rework, and you NEED at least a couple of settings for different loads (air speed for socket vs 0402). Things like FR-810 are pretty much unusable garbage compared to older models with actual knobs.

Re:So what should we do?

[FatdogHaiku]

We discarded that idea do to a sneeze causing down shifting..
interestingly, an orgasm causes the car to self park and start serving streaming video...

Re:So what should we do?

[citizenr]

under $100 on Amazon? lol I mean the real equipment, not chinese counterfeit garbage. You need at least 2 temp settings for two dif solder types, you need quick and intuitive airflow manipulation for rework. I mean fm203 / rf810, not 50 year old separate tip and heater technology your grandpa used to use.

Re:So what should we do?

[rpstrong]

ended up with a 2015 Ram Big Horn for price of tiny Kia.

at first I couldn't even find the gear shift.
nothing on the steering column.
nothing in the middle of the floor.

then I saw it.
a small rotary knob on the dash below the radio.

I regularly drive a Chrysler 200 with the same arrangement: the shift knob directly below the volume control. I can't tell you how many times I've turned up the radio while trying to shift into drive . . .

And the only way to know what gear you're in is by looking at either the knob or the dashboard It wouldn't be so bad if the knob had detents similar to a conventional shift lever.

Re: So what should we do?

[Anonymous Coward]

What bike doesn't have N between 1st and 2nd?

Re: So what should we do?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, I bought a fancy car with proximity unlock and all that. Before I even left the dealer lot, I had worked out how the new doors worked. I guess most people don't think that far ahead.

Re:So what should we do?

[Hognoxious]

You mean no further drawback compared to what is an already retarded design. Clearly everyone's already forgotten the Honda uncontrolled acceleration bug.

Then again, I don't find three pedals confusing.

Re:So what should we do?

[Anonymous Coward]

You think anyone reads their car manual? I seriously fucking doubt it.

Re:So what should we do?

[KGIII]

Mr. Asshole, thanks. And I re-read my post and stand by everything I said. Do you not take the time to ensure your tools work properly? Do you not take the time to keep them in peak condition? No? Well then don't be surprised when the tools don't work right.

The same thing applies to automobiles except automobiles get driven down the road, unlike a planer. And, seeing as I'm being a smug asshole, learn to drive. Just 'cause you got your license doesn't mean you can take additional courses. There are classes across the globe, most of them aren't that expensive. Many of them are held on the weekends. Some have night courses.

Inspect your tools, make sure they work properly, and use them to your best ability. Yup. That's a whole lot to ask and even suggesting that we not lower things to the lowest common denominator makes me smug as all hell.

Re:So what should we do?

[drinkypoo]

I don't find three pedals confusing either, and if I had a lift or even a slab I would probably drop the money to put a six speed into my Audi in lieu of the five speed slushbox when I liquidate my 300SD. I'm not doing that job in the dirt. The point remains, though; there was no good reason for them not to use pushbuttons.

Also, I'd still rather have a DCT than any of this stuff, and they don't work without computer control either

Re:So what should we do?

[Grishnakh]

Oh for fuck's sake, are you really this stupid? Here's a fucking link:
http://www.amazon.com/Hakko-FX...

$96.72. No, it's probably not the most expensive Hakko station. There's also this one:

http://www.amazon.com/AMERICAN...

At $236.40, it's still less than half of that mythical $500 Hakko. Hakkos have never been highly expensive. I got my first Hakko (a 936 IIRC) over a decade ago for less than $100 at Fry's.

You need at least 2 temp settings for two dif solder types, you need quick and intuitive airflow manipulation for rework.

There's no "airflow manipulation" on a soldering station. You're thinking of a "SMT rework station", which is something else altogether. A "soldering station" is a soldering iron that's temperature-controlled, and usually has a handy stand with sponge and/or brass mesh for tip cleaning.

Yes, the ~$200 rework stations are indeed Chinese and not terribly high-quality. However, they actually work just fine for hot-air rework in my experience. (The soldering iron side, on the other hand, is complete junk.)

Re: So what should we do?

[stabiesoft]

Umm if the power was off, how did you open the door? While you can open the door from the inside with the manual levers, you cannot open the door from the outside without power. You must use the key to unlock the hatch and then pull a cord to open the door. I imagine convertible vetts have a similar mechanism.

Re:So what should we do?

[mjwx]

If you're the type of person that buys a 3500 pound object that can go 100+ MPH and fail to read the manual which results in the injury of another individual, you're an idiot.

Erm... the thing is, in order to drive a 2T object that can go 160 KPH (so we clearly cant be talking about Jeeps here) you need to be able to demonstrate you're capable of using it without having to read a manual. When you've demonstrated this they give you a piece of plastic with the word "license" on it.

The problem here is that FCA not only changed a standardised design, they made parts of it non-functional. So expected functions were not there.

When you engineer something for the mass market, you need to engineer it for the dumbest possible users. Its no good saying "well you should have RTFM'd", this attitude is what has kept Linux out of the hands of the masses. You need to engineer it to prevent as much stupidity as possible. People are ignorant, lazy, slovenly morons that think if they can save 0.5 seconds and 20 KJ by not using the handbrake they should do it. This is why almost all automatic transmissions force you to be in park to take the key out (not an issue for us superior manual drivers, but we're superior for a reason).

Re:So what should we do?

[RockDoctor]

Shouldn't people be engaging the PARKING BRAKE when parking the vehicle. You know - the one that utilises a straight mechanical linkage to the brake shoes, without any input from the vehicle. As if (shock! horror!) it were the DRIVER's personal responsibility?

Wouldn't that be ballistic?

Automatics are freaky. Having to tuck your left foot under the driver's seat to avoid trying to operate the clutch - very weird.

Re: So what should we do?

[BarbaraHudson]

Once you get used to power-shifting w/o using the clutch and not grinding the gears, who need neutral?

Re: So what should we do?

[Anonymous Coward]

No, dumbass. He said to make progress you have to put it along side the current iteration. Eventually they'll change over.

Re: So what should we do?

[Anonymous Coward]

He may be an idiot, but throughout this entire story, you've been a grade A, self righteous asshole.

Re:So what should we do?

[citizenr]

No need to get agitated there my friend :)
You seem to have missed my point. I didnt mean amateur, entry level 50 year old technology soldering tip on a stick products.
I meant professional level >$500 units meant for business use, fm203 / fm206 / rf810 - they all suck balls in one or more aspects from alarm clock UI to non stackable toy like case of 810.

951 is the cheapest decent soldering station hakko makes (T12/T15 cartridges) Its comparable to higher end wellers/jbc (C245), yet still uses hilarious and infuriating four buttons and 5 clicks to change anything interface + loud beeping.

Re:So what should we do?

[Grishnakh]

Sorry, I realized I got a little testy there after I clicked "submit" and would have preferred to tone that down a bit. Fucking Slashdot: I've been bitching for *years* that they should allow editing of posts. Even if it was within a 5-minute window, that'd be a huge help while preventing people from radically changing posts after they've been replied to. (Or, just lock them down as soon as they get replied to.) Maybe these new owners will *finally* fix this.

Anyway, I stand by my recommendation for the FX-888d for most use. It doesn't have all the fancy features of the others (though the 30-minute inactivity timer sounds really nice; I've left mine on overnight accidentally a few times), but as long as you don't need to change tip temperature regularly it works great. I've soldered thousands of joints with mine. But I do admit the UI is pretty lame.

Maybe I'll upgrade to that 951 later.

Re:So what should we do?

[Anonymous Coward]

Clearly you have no idea how public policy decisions get made. Reducing the probability of accidents by ensuring that tools operate in a consistent and intuitive manner is not "pandering to the lowest common denominator" as you would have us believe. If you want to buy niche, exotic products that operate totally differently from everyone else, then go for it, you elitist, smug son of a bitch. But your assholery does not have to be forced upon the general population. Redesigning the basic operation of everyday objects that are potentially dangerous for no reason WILL cause accidents by increasing the chance of human error. If you think that human error is always the fault of the stupid human, then the rest of us welcome you to fuck off and live on the deserted Island of Fuckheaderia where you'll never have to worry about the rest of us knuckle draggers again.

Re:So what should we do?

[KGIII]

If the tool is too complicated, learn to use it. Alternatively, let someone else do it who knows how. Pandering to the intellectually lazy is no way to forward the tech. If we took your advice, we'd still be using a crank to start the car (or a starter button located on the floor or dash, whatever). If we took your advice, you'd still be unable to drive because you can't drive a stick, we'd be using a two speed, lock the hubs for four wheel drive, have a slider (if anything) for directional signals, or horns in a hidden spot in the steering wheel.

If you think we're at the peak of usability and egonomics, you're sorely mistaken. Limiting the design choices because you're incapable or unwilling to learn something is not an acceptable solution. If you can't, or won't, learn then get off the road so that the rest of us who put the effort in can drive safely. Your choice to ignore the education aspect and put other lives at risks is abhorrent. There's no elitism, it's commonsense. There's nothing special about me because I take a few damned minutes to ensure that I'm able to operate the tools properly.

This is not only not difficult, you're making it needlessly complex. Pandering to the lowest common denominator is a sure fire way to eliminate the chance of change. I'd say it's those who believe we're at the apex and needing no more changes that are elitists, not those of us who are actually willing to learn how to ensure proper safety practices are followed. I'm not smug, I'm certain.

Re:So what should we do?

[HornWumpus]

My push button tranny MOPAR doesn't have park. It's one of the later ones (1960) so perhaps they fixed it.

Re:So what should we do?

[HornWumpus]

Having done a slushbox to stick conversion. I say don't do it.

It's always a nightmare of unexpected additional changes. You know you need a clutch pedal, but do you need a new brake pedal too? Will you need a new ECU? etc etc etc

Just sell the slushbox and buy one with a real transmission.

Re:So what should we do?

[HornWumpus]

You pull them up as you enter the turn, quick release, reverse lock and throttle steer. Duh.

Re:So what should we do?

[drinkypoo]

Just sell the slushbox and buy one with a real transmission.

Well, the problem is that there is literally no other car like it in the world... in my price range. :) All the other similar cars differ in some major respect. The successors, besides being orders of magnitude more expensive, are also hundreds of pounds heavier. The cost-viable competition isn't made out of Aluminum, either, with all the corrosion resistance that implies.

Anyway, Audi six-speed swaps are pretty well-solved problems with all-factory parts, and putting one into the D2 A8 is no exception. The only part that's hard to come by, and thus commonly worked around, is the right front axle. I think it's the right, anyway. If you can't find a rare euro axle, you need a spacer. It's a pretty simple thing, though. You can also theoretically get a custom axle shaft made up from the old one, but I don't know if anyone has actually gone that route. I forget if you need a totally new pedal box, or just to add the clutch pedal. You don't need a new ECU, though it can take a reflash. That's a a solved problem for Bosch ME7.

Re:So what should we do?

[HornWumpus]

The net might have changed things enough. But it was a nightmare for me.

It was 20+ years ago. I wound up having to wait 6 weeks for parts, I hadn't realized I needed, to come from Japan. If I'd have known how long that was, I'd have just done the junkyard thing, but I was an optimist back then. It's not like they didn't have Jets flying the pacific.

Re:So what should we do?

[drinkypoo]

The net might have changed things enough. But it was a nightmare for me.
It was 20+ years ago.

Not only has it, but it did it a seriously long time ago for some models. For example, the really good 240SX mailing list is 20+ years old.

I wound up having to wait 6 weeks for parts, I hadn't realized I needed, to come from Japan. If I'd have known how long that was, I'd have just done the junkyard thing, but I was an optimist back then. It's not like they didn't have Jets flying the pacific.

My 240SX limited slip turned out to have come from a Z32 300ZX and not from a 240SX, so I needed Infiniti axles (I forget which now) to fit it into my S13 fastback. But all that information was readily available to me.

Re: So what should we do?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmm... Not sure if serious. 'Someone save me from making me have to learn!' Is that really what you're saying??? 'I refuse to educate myself! Protect me! Save me!' Really? C'mon now... I'm not even gonna waste one of my daily posts on you. Have an AC reply, go back to troll school. Silly head.

Re: So what should we do?

[OrangeTide]

Old Japanese bikes can have weird places for neutral. They can have neutral at the bottom or top of the entire sequence. Really old bikes (before my time) sometimes had multiple neutral positions places in between various gears..

All the bikes I've actually ridden, has been the standard of first is down one, and everything else is up from neutral. I'm not sure when that happened, but surely there is some crazy transmission enthusiast that know the whole history of when it came about.

Re: So what should we do?

[OrangeTide]

I like neutral for backing my bike out of my garage.

Re:So what should we do?

[drinkypoo]

It's kinda like the emergency/parking brake in a car. Often you have to do two things at the same time to release it, e.g. hold a stiff button down and move a lever. You don't want it to be too easy to disengage.

That's going away, because manual parking brakes are going away. Eliminating the cable and its protecting sheath actually saves weight, even when you implement electrics which can apply the parking brake.

Re:So what should we do?

[drinkypoo]

I like the P-R-N-D-4-3-2-L layout on the Toyota RAV4. Very functional and safe IMHO. Pretty hard to fuck that up.

If you like that, then you should love classic euro slush shifters, like what's in my '82 300SD... it's actually taken from another car in the same vein, probably a gasser. It has a wiggly little gate so that it's trivial to pull it back to one below overdrive, then you can push it back up into OD without looking. If you want to grab a lower gear you wiggle it to the right a little while pulling it. If you want the lowest gear, there's a gate switch which pushes over to the right from there. I don't think my trans implements that function, though. It's load and cable-controlled, though with an electric kickdown switch. It's easy to do a lot of shifting with it, I get it all the way down sometimes just for laughs in the canyons. Torque on tap...

Re:So what should we do?

[Bengie]

There is a fine line between RTFM and poor design. Principle of least astonishment says engineers should design intuitive systems and also follow standard convention.

Re: So what should we do?

[Bengie]

Neutral, first, and second all feel different for motorcycles. Neutral is technically between first and second in that case.

Emergency Brake?

[RoknrolZombie]

Isn't that why they have an emergency brake?

Re:Emergency Brake?

[thechemic]

I know right?

Re:Emergency Brake?

[Anonymous Coward]

So parking is an "Emergency" now?

Re:Emergency Brake?

[TWX]

Mmmhmm. They actually state in the owner's manual that one is supposed to use the parking brake when parking. Few people actually do, but that's contrary to the directions.

Re: Emergency Brake?

[adolf]

Maybe.

Rented a Chrysler 200S recently. The gear selector was a purely electronic rotary plastic knob with almost zero resistance or mechanical feedback, the parking brake was an electronic button beside it, there was no emergency brake to speak of, and there was no ignition key or mechanical switch, but just a button.

All the R'ing the FM in the world can't fix a stupid design.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[Anonymous Coward]

Read the Article , the Car will not turn off if it is not in Park.
Dam you quiet engine.

But it is America No one uses the Parking Brake.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, in my road code book, that is actually mandatory.

Also to engage the oposite shift with regard to the incline of the parking.

They don't go as far as place tire blockers, but i'm sure that the guidelines for heavy duty truck do.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[Woldscum]

Also because standard transmissions unfortunately are going the way of the dodo. The CVs and new 5,6,7 and 8 speed auto transmissions get better MPG than the standards. Wild ass guess that 75% of the drivers in the US cannot drive a standard transmission and never use the emergency brake. And I bet that number is in the 95% range in the SUV owner (Soccer moms) group.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[Anonymous Coward]

Nope, for J turns!

Re:Emergency Brake?

[Zaelath]

Except they want to do as many stupid things as possible:
- Not familiarise themselves with the vehicle (admittedly no one does this)
- Not use the parking brake
- Not turn the car off
- Not take the key when exiting the vehicle

If you've done six stupid things this morning, why not round it off with breakfast at Milliways, the Restaurant at the End of the Universe?

Re:Emergency Brake?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes.
Not using the parking brake puts stress on the transmission.
Park puts a pawl against a gear in the transmission. If you don't use the parking brake, that one piece of metal takes the entire load.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[Kozar_The_Malignant]

The best anti-theft device you can have in your car is a manual transmission.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[Anonymous Coward]

People do not generally expect to put the emergency brake on in an automatic because you have a 'park setting' for the transmission that you know means like 'park & don't allow the transmission to be engaged in to any other gear while the car is off' making it nigh on impossible to move the car. An emergency brake in an automatic is overkill & you know would be used in cases of 'emergency' (like if you were actually driving/trying to stop & your brakes fail).

You don't use the 'emergency/parking brake' because of 'dumb usability designs'.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[Anonymous Coward]

Should the guy that parks your car at the garage read the manual before he puts your car into a spot? The friend that borrows it for a quick errand? Etc.

Re: Emergency Brake?

[kheldan]

I see. So if there's some catastrophic failure of the computerized control systems of the vehicle, you can't even yank hard on a lever or push as hard as you can down on a pedal to engage a mechanical emergency brake? Is there even a direct mechanical connection between the regular brake pedal and the brake master cylinder?

Re:Emergency Brake?

[bobbied]

All you young bucks.. Never driven a standard transmission, always an automatic.... They where once called "Parking brakes" you know.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[Grishnakh]

Yep, I used to be a manual transmission lover too. (Note, they're not "standard transmissions"; you must be over 65 years old if you're using that terminology still.) I drove a stick for 20 years. But my new car that I just got is an auto, because they finally fixed all the problems with autos: the fuel economy is noticeably better than manuals, they shift nicely now (both in smoothness and in responsiveness), and they're reliable now. I still *always* set my parking brake; I never broke that habit, and don't intend to. (It helps that my car is designed to be "sporty" and has the parking brake lever right next to the driver's seat just like a real sports car, rather than replacing it with a button or foot pedal like some cars do now.)

Also, I think your wild-ass guess is wrong: I'd estimate it closer to 85-90% of US drivers can't drive a stick.

Also, as far as fuel economy is concerned, I think one big factor is that I believe they're making manual transmissions less efficient intentionally, because stick drivers don't seem to care much about fuel economy, so they've selected the gearing for performance over economy, and one big factor is the top gears are lower than in an equivalent auto trans, so at highway speeds you're buzzing around at higher engine rpm. In a modern auto, it's no big deal to be close to lugging the engine, because as soon as the engine speed gets too low or there's a bit of extra throttle, the transmission will downshift in milliseconds. But in a stick, they make it so you don't have to downshift so much, which means keeping your rpms higher in cruising, which means crappier highway fuel economy.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[xfade551]

Use of the parking brake seems to vary with the terrain and climate conditions of where you grew up and where your current residence is. I grew up on the U.S. west coast, where there are plenty of hills, and the whether is usually above freezing. On the other hand, I once visited my buddy in Illinois at the tail end of winter, and he practically yelled at me for setting the parking brake afterwards stating "You've never had your brake pads freeze to your rotors, overnight, have you?" (Illinois is also very, very flat)

Re:Emergency Brake?

[bobbied]

I hear ya... Who wants to steal a crappy car with a manual transmission anyway?

I buy the manual because it's cheaper and lasts longer and I'm only interested in getting to point a to point b for as long as possible as cheaply as possible. Nobody want's my car because it's a bare bones pile of loosely related scrap metal and used car parts for most of the time I drive it.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[pr0fessor]

A cable that locks the brakes is not an emergency brake as a matter of fact if you are moving and engage it you are likely to cause an emergency. Why does everyone insist on calling the parking brake an emergency brake.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[BarbaraHudson]

Most parking brakes no longer even work. Corrosion and lack of use ...

Re: Emergency Brake?

[Zaelath]

If it's an actual "emergency brake" it's not connected to the hydraulics at all...

Most of these things are safer not being under human control anyway, like being able to put the car in park at 80MPH on the freeway, or engaging the emergency brake in the same situation. If you're not the panicky idiot that everyone else in the world is, perhaps you can ease on a handbrake, but most people are going to yank it on, lock the rear wheels and spin out.

Sure, if the systems all fail you're left (maybe) with engine braking, but at a risk assessment level, more people kill themselves due to bad reactions than mechanical failure. Hell, most of them can't even work out to turn off the ignition when the accelerator pedal gets caught under the floor mat, and if they do will probably turn to key all the way to lock and lose the steering.

The sooner it's all automated the better.

Re: Emergency Brake?

[Pascoea]

you can't even yank hard on a lever or push as hard as you can down on a pedal to engage a mechanical emergency brake?

Nope. Purely electronic. Push the button and you can hear a "whiiiiiiiiir, scronk" to indicate the parking brake has engaged. (Subaru Legacy).

Is there even a direct mechanical connection between the regular brake pedal and the brake master cylinder?

Yup, there is a link there. But there is an electronic device (ABS actuator) sitting between the master and slave cylinders.

I have no idea if there is a physical link between gear shift and the transmission

Aint progress grand?

Re:Emergency Brake?

[pr0fessor]

Wild ass guess that 75% of the drivers in the US cannot drive a standard transmission and never use the emergency brake.

Only if your polling driver under 30-35 because standard transmissions where fairly popular not that many years ago, you are probably right about the parking break unless they have standard transmission they probably will never use it.

If your manual says it's an emergency brake then I disagree with the manufacture too, at no point should a cable lock system on the brakes be considered an emergency brake it's a parking break.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[PAjamian]

I like a manual because they're fun to drive, have better gas-mileage and you can do things with them (such as roll-start the car) that you can't do in an auto.

I disagree that they last longer. Maybe the transmission as a whole does, but by the time an automatic transmission has any issues you'll have gone through at least one if not more clutches on a manual and those aren't cheap to replace.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[Anonymous Coward]

Right but it only starts beeping & flashing when the door is opened. Why would you not allow the car to be turned off 'in gear' & just immediately start flashing & beeping for a 'wrong state of car' indicator, it works well enough when you leave your lights on. You can't even argue this is the proper safety design to avoid someone turning off the car while actively moving...umm cars can run out of gas and are now effectively 'turned off'...do they magically not allow for that state (nice perpetual motion machine there) so someone turning off the car while in motion is no worse than running out of gas.

I can't think of an actual legitimate safety reason to not allow turning off the car in any gear. But at a minimum 'foot on brake, car not in motion' is a unique state that 99.999% of the time means 'driver wants to park', though even if there is a legitimate reason for that state where the driver isn't parking it won't hurt a soul to then allow for 'turning off car regardless of gear'. Than if the car is not in park just starting beeping and a flashing gear indicator or something...it's hardly rocket science & is far safer than 'don't allow turning off car while in gear' regardless of anything else going on.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[Anonymous Coward]

always heard it "e-brake" or "hand-brake" for manuals, and "parking-brake" for automatics. not quite sure how the "emergency" aspect factors in, but the pedal-activated parking-brake on most automatics is going to be much more difficult to activate in an emergency than the hand-activated brake on most manuals.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[HornWumpus]

Some of the problems with autos are unfixable.

The transmission doesn't know what you are about to do, hence the slushbox is always playing catch-up.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[David_Hart]

I hear ya... Who wants to steal a crappy car with a manual transmission anyway?

I buy the manual because it's cheaper and lasts longer and I'm only interested in getting to point a to point b for as long as possible as cheaply as possible. Nobody want's my car because it's a bare bones pile of loosely related scrap metal and used car parts for most of the time I drive it.

Actually... it isn't the transmission that deters thieves. It's the car. But keep telling yourself that.

Manual transmission BOXES last much longer than automatics. The clutches, however, vary with the driver. If the driver is good, then the manual is just as good as the automatic. If not, then the automatic's clutches will last longer.
http://mechanics.stackexchange...

I see that you didn't haul out the old "manual is better on gas" myth. It used to be true, but the newer CVT and 8/9 speed engines are better.

Personally, I can drive a stick shift. My first car had a manual transmission. The most annoying part for me was holding it on hills. I had no problems doing it, it was just annoying. One of the cool things is that you can start it with a dead battery by just pushing it or rolling down hill (It was small enough that I could push it myself). It was great in College when I didn't have money for a new battery.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[Khyber]

" the fuel economy is noticeably better than manuals"

My 87 Tercel hatchback got 40 MPG easily. I have yet to see any automatic transmission car with such a rating on it that isn't some sort of hybrid.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[bobbied]

Maybe automatics are better and clutches are worse these days, but I don't seem to have a clutch issue with any of my past cars. Now I'm a really non-aggressive driver type and don't do much city driving, so I'm not stressing things much so maybe that's why I don't see the clutch issues? I hear ya on the "fun to drive" and "roll start" thing. I once roll started my 65 VW Bug for a couple of months because the starter went out and I couldn't afford a new one. Oh the fun days..

Re:Emergency Brake?

[Harlequin80]

Ummmm. I have had my brake pads rust and freeze to my rotors and the amount of force to brake that connection is absolutely negligible. Unless your rotors were submerged and then the lake froze there is no way that ice will prevent the car rolling. Not to mention that the pads will be in contact with the rotors anyway when you have stopped and the only difference between hand brake on or off is a small amount of pressure so if they were going to freeze with the hand brake on they would freeze with the hand brake off. Pads are pushed away from the rotor by the movement of the rotor. There is no mechanical system that pulls it away, drum brakes are different of course.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[bobbied]

Yea, I'm not a clutch abuser because my habitual driving style is very non-aggressive. I guess it comes from learning how to drive a manual at a young age in the country and in very underpowered cars like the old VW Bugs. I live in a very flat area and I don't do much city driving which also helps the clutch. All in all, I don't usually have clutch issues, and when I do they are usually just throwing in a new disk, throw-out bearing and such. A bit expensive for the labor, but not like rebuilding an automatic transmission.

If you do a lot of city driving in hilly country and/or have bad driving habits, you might be better on the automatic...

Re: Emergency Brake?

[Harlequin80]

Please don't ever ever ever pull on your hand brake while moving. They aren't emergency brakes they are parking brakes. Firstly they have significantly less braking power than your standard brakes and your standard brakes will almost certainly overwhelm the power production of your engine. Secondly they only operate on the rear wheels, so if your parking brake did have enough power to stop the rear wheels turning your would instantly lose control of the vehicle, the rear end would try to over take the front end and all of a sudden you are spinning.

Finally most modern automatic cars don't have a physical connection to their gear box any more anyway. The lever is like it is through legacy, not because it needs to be.

As for your comment about direct mechanical connection to the brakes we are starting to see Brake-by-wire systems in consumer cars though they aren't that common outside of hybrids. Toyota's LFA is brake by wire.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[Grishnakh]

They always get better fuel economy. And the good ones have paddle shifters so you can override them when necessary.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[drinkypoo]

My 87 Tercel hatchback got 40 MPG easily. I have yet to see any automatic transmission car with such a rating on it that isn't some sort of hybrid.

Time to look at CVTs.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[rmdingler]

One additional clear advantage of the standard transmission is the degree with which you have to be actually engaged with the process of driving.

To be fair, sometimes driving a familiar automatic gets downright, er, automatic... and you actually forget you're driving some number of tons of metal down the boulevard.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[Grishnakh]

The new Mazda3 gets that fuel economy and does it with a larger engine, far better performance, and a whole lot more weight, and it won't kill you in a crash unlike your old Tercel. The new Honda Civic also gets over 40mpg. Lots of smaller, cheaper cars do just as well.

You can't compare old cars and new cars anyway; the requirements have changed. New cars are larger and heavier because of crash protection and consumer expectations.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[bobbied]

True, I feel more "in control" of the car myself. If you are into the experience of driving, you have to use a manual. Now, if you are into just getting there.. All bets are off.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[BronsCon]

It's a parking brake. Break is what happens to the transmission's parking pawl when someone bumps into your improperly parked automatic.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[BronsCon]

An emergency brake in an automatic is overkill & you know would be used in cases of 'emergency'

But the parking brake (what it's actually called) is for parking and prevents the single metal piece responsible for locking the transmission in park (the parking pawl) from bearing the weight of the vehicle when parked on a hill, or taking the brunt of the impact when someone "bumps" into your parked vehicle. If that pawl breaks, you're now in neutral and, if your parking brake is not engaged, free to roll on down the road. I'm sure you'd consider that an emergency, no? So, using the brake designed to prevent that probably isn't as much overkill as you initially though.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[sjames]

If you don't set the emergency brake, it can apparently become one.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[sjames]

Not to mention it can wedge and require a good bit of force to get back out of park. That loud ping is not a good sound.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[Cramer]

The "emergency" part comes from the physical cabling from that handle/pedal to the brake caliper. Short of the cable breaking (which is RARE), pressing that pedal Will. Activate. The. Brake. (usually, the rear brakes) It will not be to the same effect as the normal brake, but then, it's not designed to panic-stop a car. (it'll gradually slow the car, or hold it in place at rest.)

Re:Emergency Brake?

[stephows]

Every wondered why the emergency brake has a P symbol on it?

Re:Emergency Brake?

[Anonymous Coward]

The MPG and speed advantages of the stick shift pretty much are gone at this point.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[Anonymous Coward]

Also it helps reduce medical bills when you're out in a remote area, bash your head, and your passenger doesn't know how to use it.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[Cramer]

Manual is, in general, "better on gas" as less energy is lost between the engine and transmission (i.e. clutch slippage.) However, modern locking automatics and CVTs make the difference almost unmeasurable. And given how smart the computerized systems can be, a CVT can be more efficient than any human.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[Cramer]

BECAUSE. IT. IS.

Just because you don't know how to use it in an emergency doesn't change that fact. When the hydraulic brakes fail, that physically cabled "park brake" is all you have; and they are tested to ensure they will slow the car, and hold it in place at rest. (it's part of the NC safety inspection procedures.)

Re:Emergency Brake?

[Trax3001BBS]

Isn't that why they have an emergency brake?

For me to use a standard left foot pressed emergency brake is a hazard both mechanical as well as potentially burning up the vehicle.

I was a VW person growing up, karmann ghia's and a few standard VW's, the emergency brake is a pull rod engaged by pulling up with the right hand, and disabled as a matter of being able to access the shift stick (Obvious).

Every time I've used a left foot pressed emergency brake I've forgotten to release it. Seen the rear wheels smoke many times, I'm not used to them and other than a light not intuitive for me. So I've avoided using them, turning the wheels into the curb instead.

Not saying one should get away without it's use, as I've had a neighbors van roll down it's driveway, across the street and into my karmann ghia when it popped out of park.

Right or wrong I'm a victim of habit.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[Anonymous Coward]

This is not true at least with the 05 Corollas. The automatic transmission needs to be replaced at around 100,000 miles, but the 6 speed on the XRS variant lasts longer than that for sure. I'm not the only one with almost 140,000 on the car and still have the original clutch.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[SvnLyrBrto]

Perhaps, as you say, new automatics are better than they used to be. But the change would have to be very drastic to convince me to switch to a slush box... even the late model ones that have flappy paddles so you can pretend you're driving a GT-R.

I owned my last car... purchased new... for 14 years, 13 of which were spent living and driving in the hills of San Francisco. And I retired it on its original clutch. The only reason I can see my current car not matching that is the lure of the current-generation MX-5 Miata. It's increasingly hard to resist as it is, and if Mazda adds a hard top option, game's over.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[Bangback]

Many people have used an emergency brake to effectively stop a car at speed. Just because you (and my mother) can't, don't knock the concept. For slowing to a stop it works ok -- panic stops good luck.

Re: Emergency Brake?

[adolf]

1. Yep, no lever or pedal. Just a switch on a console, with an orange LED and a soft click somewhere in the guts of the vehicle to indicate that I'd done something. I didn't try to activate it in motion, despite it being a rental car.

2. Never use a parking/e-brake brake like that; in an emergency, FFS, never do anything as hard as you can. But yeah, you can GENTLY slow and stop with one if you're not a dolt with it.

3. The hydraulic brakes felt fine. I'm sure it was split into at a front/rear system, just as cars have been for eons. I didn't detect anything strange about them, or the electrically-assisted power steering (which, contrary to popular belief, works just like traditional power-steering, just with a electric motor-driven pump instead of a belt-driven pump).

Re: Emergency Brake?

[adolf]

Recently towed a loaded, disabled GMC Safari across town and about 15 rural miles with a chain, behind a loaded GMC S15.

Part way through the trip, the brake master cylinder on the Safari turned into a leaky mess and failed to be effective.

For the remainder of the trip, I was stopping both the Safari and the S15 using only the Safari's mechanical parking brake.

Drama: Zero. Smoking brake linings: Zero. Locked wheels: Zero.

I'm sure you're about to patiently explain to me that this is, was, and will always be impossible to accomplish. I'll wait.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[SNRatio]

I hear ya... Who wants to steal a crappy car with a manual transmission anyway?

I buy the manual because it's cheaper and lasts longer and I'm only interested in getting to point a to point b for as long as possible as cheaply as possible. Nobody want's my car because it's a bare bones pile of loosely related scrap metal and used car parts for most of the time I drive it.

Huh. A while back I was looking at new cars: for the one I wanted I could get a 6 speed automatic with better mileage and the same price as the 5 speed manual. If you are buying Japanese, I don't think there has been a strong economic argument for buying manual this century: their automatic transmissions last quite well. Buy manual because you like driving.

Re: Emergency Brake?

[Harlequin80]

Nope no reason it isn't possible. You were towing a broken vehicle, so I assume your speed was low and you weren't "yank hard on a lever or push as hard as you can down on a pedal to engage a mechanical emergency brake" like I was responding to.

You're not going to lock wheels if you use a hand brake with control and when you have thought about it. If however you are going to say you were going 55mph and the safari's handbrake managed to overcome the engine on the S15 that for some reason was in runaway mode I might be saying something different.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[Anonymous Coward]

Some of the problems with autos are unfixable.

The transmission doesn't know what you are about to do, hence the slushbox is always playing catch-up.

... and that's a problem on just certain types of tracks, not roads.

Re: Emergency Brake?

[adolf]

Yeah, speeds were moderate -- maybe 45 at tops. (Which might be worse than 55 with a single vehicle, with inverse-square law applied, but I don't feel like mathing right now)

And of course I was gentle on it. In an emergency, including when the master cylinder fails in a two-vehicle towing exercise, one should always be gentle with everything. And it was hard work actuating that parking brake pedal, and my knee (which isn't in the best of shape to begin with) was very sore and weak for days. But I was stopping over and over again, not just once: My knee would've noticed that I stopped once but I'd have been able to walk normally if I only had to stop both heavy vehicles once. These repeated stops properly hurt my body, but I still got it done.

And that's the truth. On with the wild conjecture:

If a single vehicle's engine were in runaway mode (which is ridiculously unlikely with a gas-fired thing with a Bowden cable instead of a linkage, unlike any diesel or (some) FBW Toyotas), the last thing I'd do is use a parking / "emergency" brake -- the first thing I'd try to do is disable the engine, and failing that try to disengage the transmission, and failing that I'd use the hydraulic service brakes -- gently but astutely, and only once. Wherever the car stops is wherever the car stops.

This will never happen with a real manual transmission that includes a manual clutch, because you can always disengage a manual transmission both the clutch and the shift linkage fail simultaneously.

But to complete this absurd scenario, once stopped, I'll simply hold my foot on the power-assisted brake and take my time figuring out how to kill the engine (on a ridiculously-overpowered car, this might mean that one or both drive wheels are spinning at around torque converter lockup RPM, but the car will still be largely stationary if being somewhat angry and terrifying. And a stubborn and stuck electronic dual-clutch automatic has probably stalled the engine long ago in these failure modes simply by being engaged with the wheels nearly or completely stopped).

Note that I didn't mention the parking brake in the above three paragraphs: It's ridiculously unlikely that the engine runs away (even on a diesel with a catastrophic turbo failure) and cannot be stopped, AND the transmission cannot be disengaged, AND the service brakes fail.

It could happen though, I guess, in this world of a million monkeys and a million typewriters. And if it does happen, you can bet your ass I'm using everything I have, including dragging my foot Fred Flintstone style. The parking / "emergency" brake might not be able to completely overcome the power of the engine, but it will at least dump some forward speed as heat and lengthen my short life by maybe enough few precious seconds that I can develop a safe crash plan.

I'm using it.

Did I miss anything?

Re: Emergency Brake?

[adolf]

Oh. I want to add:

I know these things not because I think I'm a better driver than everyone else (studies show: everyone else also thinks they are a better driver). I learned them because my Dad taught them to me eons ago in a fairly narrow wintry parking lot with the family's new, not-at-all paid for vehicle.

Properly driving on ice/snow/(special simulating oil in warm climates?) should be required training, because it teaches basic vehicle dynamics in a way that can never be normally experienced in a real car on city streets, except in emergencies.

And emergencies are no time to learn, but instead are a time to react instinctively.

"OK, adolf. Visualize some marks for yourself way over there, and remember where they are. Now get going smoothly as fast as you can (getting moving at all was lesson 1), and then immediately turn the wheel and tap the brake. Yeah, you're sideways. Remember those marks you set for yourself earlier? Hit them. And then recover, and neatly park right where you started so you can do it again. Try not to hit the curb."

[Try, fail.]

"But dad, I can't."

[Dad demonstrates the maneuver very sideways, but handily.]

"You cheated, Dad."

Dad: "It's not cheating if it works."

Not everyone has that Dad. Everyone should, but that's impossible. These things need taught somewhere, by someone, though: We wouldn't have any more Toyota debacles if emergency driving were taught alongside casual driving, though we might have a lot more hooning around corners in relative safety...

(Yeah, the topic is the parking / "emergency" brake. My dad taught me about that, too. I'm a grown-ass man (UID checks out), now, but perhaps it should go without saying that my Dad was driving the S-15 and I was working the parking brake in the Safari to stop both vehicles. I already knew how to do this, calmly and successfully, from lessons decades ago, though I've only rarely had to put it into practice.

Learning vehicle dynamics sets the wheels in motion, though, for doing proper emergency braking -- which should also be taught, for those who are slow learners.

And every. fucking. time. when I had my temps and something went wrong, he was like "adolf, #21054, think about what went wrong back there and how you could've done it better." At first, I had no clue, and had to ask for the answer -- which was provided. Eventually, it became second nature to ask myself what I did wrong automatically, analyze it, and answer myself. And eventually the moves became instinctive and automatic. Two weeks after I got my license, teenager-me was thus trusted to go traverse the US solo to hook up with his out-of-state girlfriend, because he (Dad) -knew- I had this stuff down.)

(I still can't parallel park for fuck, though. Dad never taught me that, and the licensed driver's ed instructor was too micromanaging for me to learn anything. It's only been a couple of decades...)

Re: Emergency Brake?

[Harlequin80]

Pretty much agree with you. I grew up with a similar old man, except it was on motorcycles. Do you have any idea how hard it is to ride a motorcycle fitted with a road front tyre and a knobby rear tyre on wet grass? Taught me a lot about how to recover losing the front end though. Something that has saved me a couple of times in the wet and having hit diesel.

Re: Emergency Brake?

[kheldan]

1. That's positively terrifying. I think I'll stick to small pickups with manual transmission.
2. I know how to use a parking/emergency brake; I've even tested them for that purpose, and so far as I'm concerned it would be the absolute last-ditch final half-assed fail-safe system, right before flinging the drivers side door open and bailing out before hitting the concrete abutment or whatever doom I might be headed for -- and no, I've never had to do either of the above. But I'm just smart enough to at least consider what I might have to do when Everything Else Has Gone Terribly Horribly Wrong. Even in a lightweight vehicle and pulling slowly and progressively on the lever (or pressing down on the pedal), the parking brake does a terribly poor job of slowing a vehicle down, because it's just the drum brakes in the back (haven't owned anything new enough to have disc in the back) and they're terribly weak, especially when mechanically actuated. But if it came to the hydraulics failing I'd damned well try it. At least it would shed some velocity before impact.
3. I don't think I'd ever own a vehicle that didn't have a mechanical linkage between the steering wheel and the rack-and-pinion, and the (normal) brake pedal and the master cylinder. It's supposed to be a real motor vehicle, not an arcade game. :-)

Did you notice? Lots of utter dummies in this comment thread I started, who can't seem to even consider What Might Go Wrong and that that's why some things are designed the way they're designed. It boggles me how some people can get through life in one piece.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[gnupun]

Except they want to do as many stupid things as possible:

Isn't it stupid to subtly change the design of something that people have been familiar for decades? The new gearshifter seems confusing and inferior to the previous mechanical gearshifter. It seems everything designed in the last 5-7 years have these annoying design flaws (e.g. systemd, the new OS X, Win 8/10 and now this).

Re:Emergency Brake?

[Anonymous Coward]

Because it can be used in an emergency when you've somehow broken a brake line, lost hydraulic pressure, and need to stop before momentum dies? I.E. An emergency?

Re: Emergency Brake?

[adolf]

3. Well, power steering and power brakes still have mechanical/hydraulic links between the driver and the wheels. The only difference(s) are whether it is belt driven or electrically driven, and that's a wash IMHO.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[PAjamian]

I think we just deal in different ages of cars. I tend to like my cars around 15-20 years old, and at that age you usually see a clutch go out. Automatics, otoh, will just keep going and going long after you've had to pull apart the engine to replace your worn seals to fix that oil leak that won't go away.

I still prefer a manual, though, I just love the experience of driving it better. It's for that reason, and that there's enough people like me who do prefer driving a manual, that I think they will still be manufactured for some time to come.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[PAjamian]

I'm just speaking from my own experience, here. The cars I drive, though, are about 5-10 years older than that (we still have a 91 Camry). Also most of the Toyotas you get in New Zealand were actually manufactured and sold in the Japan market first. For emissions purposes cars in Japan can't be driven past around 30,000 miles or so unless you give them a major overhaul, engine rebuild, etc. So what they do is they load all the used ones on a ship and send them over to New Zealand and other countries that use RHD vehicles and sell them here, but the cars are only really designed to take them that initial 30,000 miles. For that reason it's pretty amazing when they're still going 100,000 miles later.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[Anonymous Coward]

I have to use the parking brake all the time - slanted driveway. Temperatures below zero half the year. I never had brake pads freeze to the rotors - surely this is a solved problem. Perhaps some manufacturers are too lazy to implement the solution - but such a car would be no-sell around here. Too flawed to buy.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[Anonymous Coward]

...If your manual says it's an emergency brake then I disagree with the manufacture too, at no point should a cable lock system on the brakes be considered an emergency brake it's a parking break.

When the hydraulics fail on your traditional braking system, you can call that handle any damn thing you want, but the situation would be best described as an emergency if you happen to be moving along at any rate of speed when that happens.

And you'll be thankful you had even a cable lock system in an emergency to help stop 3000 pounds of steel from rolling into someone and potentially killing them.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[Anonymous Coward]

A cable that locks the brakes is not an emergency brake as a matter of fact if you are moving and engage it you are likely to cause an emergency. Why does everyone insist on calling the parking brake an emergency brake.

Your hydraulic system fails and your primary braking system no longer works while driving along at 60MPH.

Why does everyone insist on calling that scenario happy fun time instead of what it is...AN EMERGENCY.

FFS it's not that damn hard to find a correlation as to why it might be referred to as an emergency brake or "e-brake" instead of a parking brake.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[Anonymous Coward]

"But it is America No one uses the Parking Brake."

Maybe this is a regional thing - I live in the west coast and I cant remember the last time I've known anyone who doesnt set the brake by habit when parking.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[dywolf]

so what do you do if you suddenly lose brake fluid pressure while traveling downhill on something like I-29 between Nashville and Chatanooga, as happened to me once?

that's what that brake handle is for.
its a physical link.
it will slow the car (unless you foolishly keep your foot on the gas).
and if you yank on it really hard, it will throw the car into a skid (but don't do that!)

it is an emergency brake.
its also a parking brake.
it can serve both functions.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[dywolf]

I think rather its because theyre making computer controlled auto transmissions better by having the computer optimize for efficiency over power.

for the longest time a well driven stick was more efficient than an auto...if you drove for economy. if you drove for burning rubber off the start, well, then you killed your own economy.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[pr0fessor]

The way those cable systems are put together it would be very easy to cause the brakes to lock this is not what you want in an emergency. You have to understand the locking of lever as you engage it makes it exceedingly dangerous whether you have ever successfully used it is irrelevant. The handle cable brakes with the button that stops the locking action makes is much safer but they don't all have that. I've successfully stopped a car by rubbing a curb that doesn't make it safe or even wise.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[Translation Error]

It works against valet parking, too.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[pr0fessor]

Well I disagree with them also... Yes if the primary brake line snaps all you have is the parking brake but because of the way the controls are designed to lock the brake lever which is required for it's primary purpose to keep the brakes engaged when parked they are dangerous to use at speed some designs more than others and we should not be giving the illusion that they are an emergency brake... They are a parking break that will work if the hydraulics go out and hopefully you won't have to use them for anything but parking certainly emergency is not a primary use.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[Bill_the_Engineer]

A cable that locks the brakes is not an emergency brake as a matter of fact if you are moving and engage it you are likely to cause an emergency. Why does everyone insist on calling the parking brake an emergency brake.

People use the term "Emergency Brake" because it also serves as a purely mechanical backup to the hydraulic braking system.

Slowly applying the mechanical brake will not cause the rear wheels to lock and will bring the vehicle to a controlled stop.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[jandrese]

Parking brakes are usually all or nothing. If you use them every time you park then they will generally operate normally. If you never use them and then accidentally set them one day you can very easily discover that the lines are frozen on you when you try to disengage the brake later.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[bobbied]

Yea, I usually wonder if folks who report "clutch problems" with manuals are not really just suffering from horrible driving habits that abuse their clutches. I've had to chide more than one person to keep their foot off the clutch when they are not using it, stop trying to keep from rolling backwards at stoplights by using the clutch or trying to start out in the wrong gear. Personally, I've only had ONE clutch wear out, ostensibly because it was misadjusted (the cable was too tight in a VW Bug I owned) in all the cars I've had and the rest of the clutch work I've done had to do with bad throw-out bearings, master cylinders and such. Not that it matters though, if you have the clutch out, just replace everything as the cost of labor far exceeds the parts...

Re:Emergency Brake?

[Anonymous Coward]

How does that help against theft?

Re:Emergency Brake?

[bobbied]

I haven't purchased a new car in a long time and it's only recently that automatics came to par with manuals in both price and gas mileage. However, I would maintain that even at equal prices and mileage, the manual is cheaper to maintain..

Re:Emergency Brake?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yep, I used to be a manual transmission lover too. (Note, they're not "standard transmissions"; you must be over 65 years old if you're using that terminology still.)

Well, it is standard in the sense that around 85% of new cars have one and automatic gearboxes are usually an option, not standard equipment -- an option typically chosen by car buyers over 65.

Also, as far as fuel economy is concerned, I think one big factor is that I believe they're making manual transmissions less efficient intentionally, because stick drivers don't seem to care much about fuel economy, so they've selected the gearing for performance over economy, and one big factor is the top gears are lower than in an equivalent auto trans, so at highway speeds you're buzzing around at higher engine rpm.

That's only the case with some newer cars that offer automatic gearboxes with more gears than the equivalent manual gearbox; in many cases the opposite is true. I highly doubt that they would make the standard version less efficient on purpose, as that would impact the official CO2 figures.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[Anonymous Coward]

There are very few cars where the automatic option has a lower official fuel efficiency number than the manual gearbox version. Even DSGs usually use more litres per 100km.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[Anonymous Coward]

How would a car with a non-working parking brake pass the annual vehicle safety inspection (MOT or whatever it is called in different countries)?

Re:Emergency Brake?

[Anonymous Coward]

Roads tend to have intersections, roundabouts, traffic jams, sleeping policemen and other things that affect driver behaviour in a way that the gearbox cannot know a lot more often than tracks.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[danomac]

I guess people don't set the parking brake on automatics. I have four vehicles, three are manual transmission. I always use the parking brake, even on the car with the automatic transmission.

That habit proved to be helpful because once I forgot to put the auto transmission in park. (A couple decades of driving manuals will do that.) My car wouldn't start the next morning and after a few minutes I figured out I left it in reverse. It's an old car, so no safety switch on the ignition. It did have one for the starter though, as the starter wouldn't turn until I put the car in neutral or park.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[tlhIngan]

But my new car that I just got is an auto, because they finally fixed all the problems with autos: the fuel economy is noticeably better than manuals, they shift nicely now (both in smoothness and in responsiveness), and they're reliable now

Actually, that's apparently the problem with the new autostick transmissions (the manual transmissions that are servo-controlled) - especially the double-clutch ones. Because they are essentially manual transmissions they have shift points and even though modern ones can shift in about 100ms, they still produce a noticeable jerk when they do.

Apparently customers who buy those transmissions are reporting annoyance because unlike an automatic, this is very crude and jerky and they really wanted the smoothness at which a modern automatic shifts.

And yes, autosticks are an attempt to get the convenience of an automatic with the peppiness of a manual, and has been around a long while (it's been used in racing for a long time - drivers haven't actually shifted or clutched).

Re: Emergency Brake?

[Grishnakh]

or the electrically-assisted power steering (which, contrary to popular belief, works just like traditional power-steering, just with a electric motor-driven pump instead of a belt-driven pump).

Nope, you're thinking of EHPS (electro-hydraulic power steering), which is an electric motor driving a hydraulic pump with otherwise regular hydraulic-assist power steering. These were popular in the 00s to improve fuel economy, but they're mostly gone now I think.

Now they just have electric motors directly driving the steering shaft (EPS: electric power steering) to provide assist. They didn't do this before because the motor drive electronics and control algorithms are a lot more complicated than EHPS, but with modern power electronics and microcontrollers it's not so hard. As a bonus, it's lighter and simpler than EHPS; you don't have to worry about hydraulic leaks, hoses, etc. Also much easier assembly since there's no hoses, just a motor bolted onto the side of the steering shaft.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[Grishnakh]

I like a manual because they're fun to drive, have better gas-mileage

This is incorrect on modern cars. Automatics, invariably, get better fuel economy than manual-transmission cars.

Before about 10 years ago, you were correct, but not any more.

Also, I seriously doubt you can roll-start a modern manual-transmission-equipped car. Old ones you certainly could, but with modern engine controllers, it's doubtful that's allowed.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[Grishnakh]

For emissions purposes cars in Japan can't be driven past around 30,000 miles or so unless you give them a major overhaul, engine rebuild, etc.

I seriously doubt that's the reason. From what I've read, the reason they ship used cars out of Japan is because of the taxation scheme: unlike here in America where you're taxed based on the car's assessed (blue-book) value, making it really cheap to keep an old car if you ignore repair costs, in Japan the tax gets much higher as the car gets older, so it doesn't make financial sense to keep an older car. They might claim that's for emissions purposes, but that's probably a lie; it's probably just to stimulate the economy by getting car-owners to continually buy new cars.

Modern Japanese-made cars easily last well over 100k miles, and pretty easily 200k and up, at least the ones they sell here in the US. 30k is barely broken in: the car is probably making **more** emissions in the first 5k miles than it is at 30k. Modern cars don't even need any real service for the first 100k miles aside from tire rotations and oil changes (and even those are being stretched to 10k-15k miles). It's not like the Japanese carmakers are going to make their engines completely different for the JDM market, so it's not amazing at all that they're still going at 100k miles. They do that here in the US all the time.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[Anonymous Coward]

The lockup torque converter combined with 5+ gear automatics have negated-to-reversed the MPG / KPL statement. However, I still love manuals because because of reliability. A manual takes 80w90 gear oil (same as the differentials and the steering gearbox in not power steering and is easy to find because it's used in hydraulic equipment and other places since the 1960's, if not earlier), circulates it via natural internal gear rotation and has little to no electronics depending on if you have reverse lockouts, etc. (worst case of electronics failure is you can't access reverse, or you can when going at highway speeds) Plus, modern materials have given much longer life to manual clutches. If you are gentle on the clutch, it can last the life of a car build after 2000-ish, and the casing of most manual transmission is both smaller and more sturdy than automatics

An automatic has it's own special, non-neutonian fluid constantly subject to high shearing stress and frequently requiring independent cooling (of which in a combined radiator can cross-contaminate with coolant or R134a). It has more clutches which are small than the single clutch on a manual and has need of electronics running back and forth between the engine (ECU) and cabin, and possibly the wheel speed sensors. And the brake (cruise). And the differential(4x4). It also has a big sump for that special fluid on the bottom which is as weak as the oil pan, but not protected by the front axle (trucks) or by being in line with the front wheels (it's harder to high-side the oil pan vs. the transmission pan because the front wheels hit the speed bumps and curbs, adding clearance for the oil pan.). It also needs a fluid pump to get that special fluid to the cooler, the torque converter, and transmission from said pan, which is another point of failure. An electronics failure in an automatic means your car is being towed or it's stuck in first or second (limp home mode).

Re:Emergency Brake?

[xfade551]

I never said my buddy was correct in his judgment, but if he was convinced he was correct, that means plenty of other people follow that same line of reasoning (he's a fairly analytical sort of guy).

Re:Emergency Brake?

[wwalker]

All the advantages of a stick shift are negated if you ever even once had to stop halfway up a hill and then start moving again. My car with an auto transmission doesn't move back even an inch no matter what kind of a hill I'm on, and I've driven in San Francisco up what feels like 45-degree hills in stop and go traffic. My first car was a stick shift, and I still get occasional nightmares because I lived in an apartment complex at the time that had a short uphill driveway with a security gate halfway up, and I used to literally pray that nobody would be driving behind me when I got home...

Re:Emergency Brake?

[redback]

Pedal?

Aren't we talking about parking brakes?

Re:Emergency Brake?

[PAjamian]

With a little bit of practice you can start up the steepest hills without rolling back in a manual, and I *have* had an automatic roll back before.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[PAjamian]

Seriously doubt all you like, you certainly can. I've done it on a car as recent as my 2000 Chrysler Neon, and have only ever seen one manual transmission that I couldn't roll start. It's possible that newer cars won't, but I doubt it. Roll starting requires that you have enough power left in the battery to power the ignition, fuel pump and computer, these require significantly less current and can run on much lower voltages than the starter and even other non-essential components such as the radio. Most "dead" batteries still put out around 4 volts which is enough to drive these essential components.

Even on the newest cars the starter simply turns the engine while the ignition is on, and roll starting is no different.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[PAjamian]

The lockup torque converter combined with 5+ gear automatics have negated-to-reversed the MPG / KPL statement.

That's certainly possible. My newest car is approximately 15 years old, so it doesn't apply to me (yet).

A manual takes 80w90 gear oil

Most manuals do. I used to have a 91 Mazda that took dextron III mercon.

(worst case of electronics failure is you can't access reverse, or you can when going at highway speeds)

I think that most manuals still use a mechanical cam in the shifter assembly for that.

Plus, modern materials have given much longer life to manual clutches. If you are gentle on the clutch, it can last the life of a car build after 2000-ish,

I think it really depends on driving conditions, the driver and what you consider to be the "life of the car". Will a clutch go 100,000 miles? In most cases, sure. But get to 150,000 miles in mainly stop-and-go city driving and you'll be replacing a clutch.

An electronics failure in an automatic means your car is being towed or it's stuck in first or second (limp home mode).

Yep, "limp mode" in an auto really sucks. I once drove my car on three cylinders for two weeks while waiting to get a replacement for a bad fuel injector, I would hate to think of how much worse it would have been with an auto in limp mode. And before you say it, no this does not damage the catalytic converter, the fuel injector had a burned out coil so it remained closed *not* putting fuel into the cylinder, and therefore not pushing extra fuel through to the exhaust to be burned off by the catalytic converter.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[Anonymous Coward]

>The most annoying part for me was holding it on hills.

That's what the breaks are for. You're not supposed to hold your car in gear on a hill.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[Anonymous Coward]

Nice M/T cars have a thing called "hill hold" which works very well. Mine has it.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[Anonymous Coward]

I doubt most people driving in a DSG car for the first time have ever driven a car with an automatic gearbox. I think the issue is more that people are more willing to accept 'feeling' gear changes when they perform them themselves than when the gear shift is initiated automatically.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[PAjamian]

I should also point out that the simple fact that even modern automatic transmissions still generate enough waste heat to require independent cooling (and manuals do not) is evidence that they are not as efficient as manuals. The generated heat is waste energy that is not being sent to the vehicles drive system. Newer automatics may be more efficient than older ones with the addition of the lock-up clutch, but I still don't believe they are as efficient as a manual.

Re: Emergency Brake?

[adolf]

I stand corrected.

Is there still a mechanical connection between the steering wheel and the steering rack?

Also, if that car were built as you say, I am impressed. It had good steering feel, appropriate heft, and ok feedback (though less than I prefer).

Re:Emergency Brake?

[Anonymous Coward]

Either that or they'll take it on the freeway in 2nd. If you're lucky just the tranny will be ruined when the Highway Patrol finds it abandoned on the side of the road.

Honestly manual trans cars are a pretty ancient concept tech wise. Without warning or explanation they will allow operational modes that cause failure and permanent damage in a pretty short amount of time.. And that's only because 'they've always been that way'.

Compared against other products, that's pretty shitty user interface design. There really is no excuse for that in 2016. They only get a pass because they're old.

Modern cars with a CVT transmission and a push-button start are a hell of a lot easier to deal with from a user standpoint.

Re: Emergency Brake?

[Grishnakh]

Yes, it's not steer-by-wire, it's just an electric motor bolted onto the steering shaft to provide assist. Otherwise it's a totally standard rack-and-pinion steering system. Remember the old days when small cars didn't even have hydraulic assist, and had completely manual rack-and-pinion steering? Now slap an electric motor onto the steering shaft close to where it connects by U-joint to the rack, and you have a modern EPS system. The whole idea is that you really don't need much (if any) assist at highway speeds, so it doesn't bother wasting power at those times, only at low speeds. Mechanically, the system is pretty simple; I'm sure the only reason they didn't do this before is because the motor control aspect was too difficult and expensive to do before; now with modern power electronics and microcontrollers it's not. Being able to electronically drive a motor in either direction in a very exact manner to precise angular positions, and for a price reasonable for a mass-market car, is actually a pretty new thing. It just wasn't possible 25 years ago, unless you were willing to spend a ton of money and have a huge box full of electronics.

As for feedback, that's probably due to design; they might have provided a bit too much assist or overcompensated for resistance from the wheels or something. Every car's is different of course. A lot of the early EPS systems were criticized for being too numb. The one in my Mazda seems to work really well, but I can see how a Chrysler probably isn't as driver-oriented given the target market.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[Grishnakh]

New cars don't even have keys to start, they have keyless push-button starting systems that are integrated with the ECU. I'd like to see you try to start one with push-starting. A 2000 Neon is seriously old; that's 16 years old now, things have changed a lot. I'm not saying it's impossible because I'm not one of the engineers who's worked on these things, but I'm seriously doubting it'd work because of the way these things are tied together now: I'm betting the ECU would simply not continue to run the engine because it never got a signal from the push-button start module directing it to start the engine.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[Grishnakh]

An "autostick" transmission is just an automatic that lets you override the computer for gear changes. My Mazda3 has one of these. They're extremely common these days. They do shift smoothly, as you'd expect of an automatic.

What you're talking about is a "DSG" transmission. That's really different, and you're right, they do shift extremely quickly but more jerkily than a normal auto. Theoretically, they have better performance and fuel economy than normal autos, since there's no torque converter. They're also pretty rare: only VW-group cars and some Fords have them to my knowledge. There's been a lot of reliability complaints about the Ford ones.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[Grishnakh]

It's not just that. When you're cruising on the highway, you're not shifting, so that part is taken out of the equation. But automatics all have higher highway fuel economy figures than manuals in the same vehicle/engine. It's because of gearing: they make the gears taller for automatics than for manuals, so at highway speeds the manual driver's engine is buzzing at 1000rpm higher. With an auto, you can afford to have the engine speed lower because it's so fast and easy to downshift when needed. They probably don't offer a really tall 6th gear for manual drivers because they'd complain about having to constantly downshift it on hills or for passing, or they'd be lugging their engines.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[Grishnakh]

I think you meant to say "higher".

And, citation needed.

Re: Emergency Brake?

[ChrisMaple]

Usually, when a clutch linkage fails, the clutch engages.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[ChrisMaple]

Push starting a car with a completely dead battery isn't possible; you have to have enough voltage to make the ignition system work.
Exception: if a car had a permanent magnet generator, it might work.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[Agripa]

Another reason to have a manual transmission is that in the event of battery or starter failure, you can push start the vehicle . . . unless it is a GMC.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[Agripa]

One of the cool things is that you can start it with a dead battery by just pushing it or rolling down hill (It was small enough that I could push it myself).

Unless it is the GMC. Their theft protection prevents push starting the vehicle even if you do not have the security key option.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[BarbaraHudson]

There are many places that don't have an annual inspection.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[PAjamian]

Now that's just cheating.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[Anonymous Coward]

Indeed, DSG is mainly a VW group thing. However, it is probably more common than actual automatics these days. VW hasn't even offered a traditional automatic gearbox on most models for the past few years.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[Grishnakh]

Indeed, DSG is mainly a VW group thing. However, it is probably more common than actual automatics these days.

Huh? No, it isn't, not by a long shot. On VW-group cars, it certainly is, but not on everyone else's cars. AFAIK, the only non-VW carmaker even using them is Ford, and even there I think it's only their smaller models like the Focus.

According to Wikipedia, only the Ford models Ford Focus, Ford C-Max, Ford S-Max, Ford Galaxy, Ford Mondeo, Ford Fiesta, Ford EcoSport have them, since 2008. The main page for DSG only even talks about VW cars.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[HornWumpus]

Parking brakes are also what activate the self adjusters in most rear drum brakes. (with some exceptions, old MOPARs self adjust when driven in reverse, Bugs had manual adjusters etc).

If you never use your parking brake, your rear brakes end up doing nothing as they are out of adjustment (from shoe wear).

Re: Emergency Brake?

[HornWumpus]

Dude, I've owned a Mazda and rented many more. They are completely regular cars. Don't mistake advertising for actual differences.

Even VW advertised 'Drivers wanted'. Nobody that likes to drive would touch a water cooled VW.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[HornWumpus]

When they don't, you can bet the rear brakes aren't doing anything, ever.

The parking brake is what makes the rear brake self adjust work. If you never use it, the shoes get worn and no rear brakes. Which most drivers wouldn't notice as they drive with rectal cranial inversion and the front brakes do 75%+ of the braking anyhow.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[HornWumpus]

We just buy the engines and transmissions. Apparently the cars themselves aren't worth shipping all the way to the USA.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[HornWumpus]

Newer automatics do indeed meet or beat the EPA numbers of newer manuals.

When they beat it, it's by tiny amounts. At best slushboxes have caught up.

They change wasn't lockup torque converters, it was throttle by wire. It's more about gaming the test than actual real world changes.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[HornWumpus]

You could have fixed that bug. Bugs should be able to pull wheelies or they suck.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[HornWumpus]

What kind of non-driving idiots do you hang out with?

Re:Emergency Brake?

[HornWumpus]

You are free to disagree. But emergency/turning brakes they are.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[BarbaraHudson]

Disc brakes are self-adjusting. Drum brakes adjust when you apply press the brake pedal while backing up. No need to use the parking brake.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[pr0fessor]

Take a driving lesson from Fast and the Furies? My kid loves those movies...

He was trying to fix up the old beater truck he purchased by giving it some new gaskets and installing some subs... I suggested putting a new starter in it first just because it's a stick means nothing.
 

Re:Emergency Brake?

[HornWumpus]

You've never used the ebrake in a turn?

My sympathies. It must suck to live your life.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[PAjamian]

That makes some amount of sense. One of the major advantages of a manual transmission has always been the ability to down-shift and get better acceleration without flooring the throttle and wasting loads of gas. With throttle-by-wire, the computer can now take the action of flooring it for a down-shift and simply down-shift the transmission without dumping all the wasted gas on it.

Of course there have been some pretty bad recent safety issues with throttle-by-wire that mean that I'm not anxious to "upgrade" to a car with it any time soon.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[PAjamian]

No, the reason the US doesn't buy the cars themselves is because Japan drives on the left side of the road, so all the cars are RHD. Cars in the US, however, are LHD.

Re:Emergency Brake?

[jandrese]

It's getting pretty hard to find a vehicle with rear drums anymore.

User error

[Anonymous Coward]

Christ america, what is wrong with manual?

Re:User error

[thechemic]

It's difficult to find vehicles that even have a manual anymore. I love driving them! 'Merica... fuck yeah!

Re:User error

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm eating a big mac, drinking a big gulp, tweeting from my laptop while messaging from my phone and putting on makeup and/or shaving on the way to work. I can't handle the distraction of changing gears!

Seriously, though, I'll drive a stick shift when it's got a siren on it and everyone gets out of my way. I get no "thrill" at all from switching back and forth between first and second gear every time traffic rolls forward a few feet.

Re:User error

[Anonymous Coward]

Ones I can name right now.

Chevy Corvette
Chevy Camaro
Chevy SS
Ford Mustang
Dodge Challenger
Dodge Dart
Dodge Viper

Re:User error

[HornWumpus]

If you're hitting second gear in 'stop and go' you are doing it wrong.

My guess, you've never driven a stick in your life, but know you don't like them.

Re:User error

[halivar]

Isn't CVT more fuel efficient than even manual, though? And with new models, the old lag problem is solved; or at least, it isn't an issue on my Honda Accord.

Re:User error

[Ol Olsoc]

It's difficult to find vehicles that even have a manual anymore. I love driving them! 'Merica... fuck yeah!

What's worse, those goddamn 'murricans went over to Germany and took over ZF Friedrichshafen AG where they make t. They also made them install these shifters on some Audi cars.

http://www.zf.com/corporate/en... Gehrdehrm 'murricans!

Re:User error

[mrchaotica]

Great list! Now try to expand it to include a large sedan, full-size pickup truck or minivan.

Re:User error

[Xenx]

I would imagine a little bit of poetic licence behind their "few feet" remark. Personally, unless traffic is already stopping before I start accelerating it's time to upshift.

Re:User error

[Grishnakh]

Christ america, what is wrong with manual?

1995 is calling, and wants you back.

These days, manuals get crappy fuel economy; autos beat them every time. Autos also beat them in performance: they can shift much faster than you can.

Face it, technology has improved and rendered manual transmissions obsolete.

And they're getting better still: pretty soon, we can expect CVTs to mostly replace traditional automatics. That is, until electric cars render transmissions completely obsolete.

Re:User error

[Grishnakh]

It's not just that. Modern automatic transmissions, both the traditional kind and the CVTs, beat manual transmissions in fuel economy in every test. Remember, modern automatics (non-CVT) now have 6-8 speeds; it's not like the 80s and 90s where they only had 3 or 4. They also beat them in performance; autos can simply shift far faster than a human driver with a stick. As you noted, they're not like the crappy old ones that took forever to shift.

Re:User error

[bobbied]

Correct for city driving. But this is a more recent development and it's not that much more. If you can keep the engine in the most economic sweet spot longer, you will get better gas mileage. It's hard to do that as effectively with a finite number of gears, even with flawless picking of the shift points by the driver..

However, if you are doing highway driving, the manual wins, every time.

Re:User error

[HornWumpus]

What? That doesn't even make sense.

In stop and go, you give it power in first for a second, than coast as far as traffic will let you.

Re:User error

[HornWumpus]

Bullshit. The automatic can't read your mind, hence it's always trying to catch up with what you want. They are good for straight lines.

Automatics have caught up on fuel economy. But at the cost of being terrible drive by wire cars in both cases. I rented a Sentra that overrode my throttle stomp until it decided the steering wheel was straight enough, I would never buy a POS that did that.

Re:User error

[Khyber]

"These days, manuals get crappy fuel economy; autos beat them every time"

Find me a non-hybrid that beats my 1987 manual transmission Tercel's 40+ MPG.

I have yet to see one at any dealership.

Re:User error

[Xenx]

It all depends on the traffic. I often used to get stuck in stop and go that was a few car lengths at a time. I would be coasting at abysmally slow speeds, unless I step up to 2nd or really push the RPM.

Re:User error

[Anonymous Coward]

Right and ABSOLUTELY NO FUN TO DRIVE!...ok maybe that's going to far depending on your definition of 'fun' but I'd rather have my manual Z4 M Coupé than a CVT or 'manual but fast shifting' version.

Re:User error

[David_Hart]

Correct for city driving. But this is a more recent development and it's not that much more. If you can keep the engine in the most economic sweet spot longer, you will get better gas mileage. It's hard to do that as effectively with a finite number of gears, even with flawless picking of the shift points by the driver..

However, if you are doing highway driving, the manual wins, every time.

Not true...

This used to be true because Automatics had torque converters with a slip system and Manuals didn't. Manuals lock into a gear and have no slip. Automatics have a slip mechanism that allows the car to stop at a light and not stall. This slip system also meant that there was some slip at higher speeds resulting in poorer fuel mileage in older Automatics.

However, modern Automatics have the ability to automatically "lock" the torque converter into a gear at higher speeds. This negates the advantage that manuals had at highway speeds.
http://www.cartalk.com/blogs/t...

In fact, a lot of the old arguments for selecting a Manual have dropped by the wayside as Automatic transmission technology has improved. There are really only two remaining arguments for get a manual, the first is that cars with manual transmissions cost a bit less and the second is that, for many, they are fun to drive... That last one will never go away...

Re:User error

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, autos beat them, by like 1 mpg. But they still run in to reliability issues long before manuals and cost a hell of a lot more to maintain and repair. So though yes, you will save roughly $0.25 per week on fuel, I'll save about $1000 every 5 years in maintenance. Toss in the better control of the car I have in icy conditions and I'll stick with my manual thankyouverymuch. Oh, and as for CVTs, boy howdy if you thought maintenance on an auto was bad. When I was buying my car two years ago and researched that. Now way am I using a CVT. Also, electrics will never render transmissions obsolete. My motorcycle can spin at 15000 RPM and do 90 in first, roughly what most electrics can do. I still need more gears. As it turns out something spinning at 15000 RPM makes quite a racket, and it's also not very energy efficient.

Re:User error

[lgw]

: they can shift much faster than you can.

Some do, some don't. The big problem with autos is when you need to shift by more than one gear: my transmission will spend about 2 seconds dropping through the gears before it gives me power.

pretty soon, we can expect CVTs to mostly replace traditional automatics.

Nope - they have fundamental problems with reliability. A transmission that needs a belt is fundamentally a bad plan. Electric cars will come first.

Re:User error

[bobbied]

Locking Torque converters have been the rule for a LONG time, like since the 70's... With all due respect for the guys from Car Talk, this *helps* with the efficiency, but there still is some energy losses due to the necessity of running the automatic part of the transmission. You have to keep the shift clutches engaged, that takes hydraulic pressure which implies a pump is running someplace. You also must circulate the transmission fluid to keep the various things lubricated and cool, which takes some power too. Power consumption in the transmission means less power for driving getting to the wheels.

I'm not saying the differential between the automatic and the manual is all that much these days, it's not, but if you are on the highway the manual is going to be better. Now if you want to argue that it's unlikely that your average skilled driver would be able to achieve better gas mileage in a mixed environment of city and highway driving on their manual, that for 99.9% of drivers would do better on an automatic, I can only agree with you. However, just straight out driving down the road at highway speed, not shifting, that manual is going to be hard to beat, all things being equal.

Re:User error

[drinkypoo]

ZF has been making occasional lemons since at least the nineties. ZF5HP42 anyone?

Re:User error

[drinkypoo]

However, if you are doing highway driving, the manual wins, every time.

To some extent this ended with the ZF8 and it is well and truly over with the ZF9. They give the ZF9 four overdrives, the lowest one is 0.48:1. The automatic now kicks the manual's ass. It's also over with the new crop of CVTs; they don't manage the same kind of mileage as the ZF 9HP because they can't quite manage the same deep ratio, but they're still better than a normal automatic.

Re:User error

[David_Hart]

"These days, manuals get crappy fuel economy; autos beat them every time"

Find me a non-hybrid that beats my 1987 manual transmission Tercel's 40+ MPG.

I have yet to see one at any dealership.

I severely doubt that you got 40+ MPG in an 87 Tercel. The Manual version was rated at 37 highway. Down hill on windy day, maybe... (grin)

But, for arguments sake, take a look at the Hyundai Accent. It gets 38 MPG for the manual and 37 for the automatic for highway driving.

There, found you a non-hybrid automatic that matches your Tercel... it even comes with Bluetooth, welcome to the 21st century... (grin)

Re:User error

[drinkypoo]

Bullshit. The automatic can't read your mind, hence it's always trying to catch up with what you want. They are good for straight lines.

Bullshit. The automatics all support a manual mode now, whether it's implemented in your car or not. A very fast human driver can shift in maybe 250ms, average is maybe 500ms and in most vehicles closer to 1s. A mediocre automatic transmission shifts in 400ms (the good ones from the nineties will manage this) while a very good one will do it in 200ms. But about since the same time they went to five-speed, they also became dynamically controlled. While typically retaining a classic limp mode, such transmissions also dual-engage gears while shifting, making most shifts basically imperceptible. A driver can make a tiptronic shift while under power in a corner without upsetting the balance of the vehicle, something you can't do even by heel-toe shifting.

A good automatic transmission is better than even an expert human with any manual short of a dogbox. Even a SMG is faster than a dogbox. A DCT is an order of magnitude faster than a SMG. There is nothing faster than a DCT... which can be fully automated. The latest ones are even said to be fairly smooth when they do that.

Re:User error

[bobbied]

OK.. Doesn't matter anyway.. Last time I looked at a car lot for a manual transmission, I barely could get my 6'7" self into *any* of the cars that could be purchased without the automatic. By the time I'm back in the car market there will be nothing left I can afford to drive with a manual transmission and about all I will fit into is a large sized SUV or truck. If only the cheep old VW Bugs had air-conditioning, but who can spare enough horses to run the compressor and fan in that contraption... Way fun to drive and I actually fit in it, just don't live where you need AC or heat, and as close to the desert as I live.....

Re:User error

[Anonymous Coward]

full-size pickup truck

The Dodge Ram is available with a 6 speed manual when you buy one with the cummins turbo diesel. (I'm pretty sure that that's the last full-size pickup available with a manual, though.)

Re:User error

[drinkypoo]

Well, I'm also 6'7" and I certainly don't fit into the old beetle. I am still working to transition from my old W126 300SD to a D2 A8. Gets about the same mileage on the freeway, and I don't drive around town much. You might consider looking at Subarus though, I used to have a GC5 Impreza and I fit very well into that. Before that I had a S13 240SX Fastback, which had massive legroom but which was a little short on headroom.

Re:User error

[David_Hart]

Locking Torque converters have been the rule for a LONG time, like since the 70's... With all due respect for the guys from Car Talk, this *helps* with the efficiency, but there still is some energy losses due to the necessity of running the automatic part of the transmission. You have to keep the shift clutches engaged, that takes hydraulic pressure which implies a pump is running someplace. You also must circulate the transmission fluid to keep the various things lubricated and cool, which takes some power too. Power consumption in the transmission means less power for driving getting to the wheels.

I'm not saying the differential between the automatic and the manual is all that much these days, it's not, but if you are on the highway the manual is going to be better. Now if you want to argue that it's unlikely that your average skilled driver would be able to achieve better gas mileage in a mixed environment of city and highway driving on their manual, that for 99.9% of drivers would do better on an automatic, I can only agree with you. However, just straight out driving down the road at highway speed, not shifting, that manual is going to be hard to beat, all things being equal.

As you said, the difference is minor, approximately 1 MPG if we believe the numbers from the manufacturers. Personally, I consider that a very minor advantage, if not a draw when it comes to comparing the two. However, if you listen to most manual transmission fans, you would think that the difference was 10MPG. Those days are long gone...

Re:User error

[Grishnakh]

But they still run in to reliability issues long before manuals and cost a hell of a lot more to maintain and repair.

Oh bullshit, autos don't need any more maintenance than manuals. You change the fluid once in a blue moon and that's it. Repair costs, sure, *if* there's a problem. On any decent car, the auto lasts the life of the car.

Also, electrics will never render transmissions obsolete.

Tesla has proven you wrong.

Re:User error

[Grishnakh]

Nope - they have fundamental problems with reliability.

Honda and Subaru disagree with you. Even the new Civic has a CVT now. Subaru's been using them for years.

Re:User error

[nytes]

I can't beat it, but I can get fairly close.

My automatic '09 Honda Fit (pretty much the equivalent of the Tercel hatchback except, IIRC, the Tercel had two doors vs. the Fit's four) regularly gets 35+ MPG. Mind, that's actual use, not the manufacturer's estimated MPG.

Re:User error

[Trax3001BBS]

If you're hitting second gear in 'stop and go' you are doing it wrong.

My guess, you've never driven a stick in your life, but know you don't like them.

I LOL'd, I learned to drive in San Fransisco, more often than not your at a stop sign headed up hill. Second gear was never an option, it was always pull the emergency brake in front of the gear shift (VW) and place it in first gear; when time to continue a matter of engaging the transmission and releasing the brake.

Re:User error

[jrumney]

However, if you are doing highway driving, the manual wins, every time.

Are you sure? My CVT sits below 2000rpm at 70mph. I don't think I've seen a manual gearbox with a low enough ratio to acheive that. Highway driving is where the fuel economy is best with a CVT, as city driving uses a lot of acceleration and idling, where the CVT loses its advantage of keeping the engine in its most efficient range.

Re:User error

[HornWumpus]

Heal and toe under power? Is that some drifter move? It's just a downshift unless you are also braking, hence heal and toe...I don't subscribe to 'never powerbrake', but haven't been in the situation where I was already power braking and decided I needed to grab a gear (without upsetting the balance of the car doing donuts?).

You can argue about weather a paddle shift dual clutch is a manual or an automatic, it's 1% of the market. Most slushboxes remain slushboxes. They are sitting in top gear at a red light and don't even start to downshift until you gas it and intake vacuum drops, computer controlled but still the same old.

Don't even start about engine braking through a torque converter. The one thing no automatic can do is anticipate the corner, even the automatics with shifters take them as 'suggestions'. Shift kits are nothing new.

Re:User error

[drinkypoo]

Heal and toe under power? Is that some drifter move?

No, you don't get it. You don't have to heel and toe to keep the car stable while making a shift under power. This is useful in turns with both decreasing and increasing radius.

You can argue about weather a paddle shift dual clutch is a manual or an automatic, it's 1% of the market.

It's a growing segment, and it will continue to grow as true manuals continue to fall off.

Most slushboxes remain slushboxes. They are sitting in top gear at a red light and don't even start to downshift until you gas it and intake vacuum drops, computer controlled but still the same old.

Well, no. Nobody has been basing transmission control on vacuum in a very long time. We've been using torque estimation since the nineties.

Don't even start about engine braking through a torque converter.

Why not? It's only 10% less.

The one thing no automatic can do is anticipate the corner, even the automatics with shifters take them as 'suggestions'.

When you are shifting manually, there is no suggestion. It just does what you asked for.

Shift kits are nothing new.

Shift kits don't do what you seem to think. They just change shift characteristics, and they don't exist any more... that is, not for new designs. The new slushboxes are too complex to be operated by a simple control system. You would destroy them doing that.

Re:User error

[drinkypoo]

If you're hitting second gear in 'stop and go' you are doing it wrong.

Or you have lots of torque, and/or you're driving something supremely old with a granny gear, like a '62 chevy with a 292 straight six. You wouldn't use first in stop and go traffic unless you were pulling a load up a hill.

Re:User error

[drinkypoo]

Caddy makes a big expensive sedan with a stick. Pretty much every full-size pickup is still offered with a stick, with at least one of the powertrain options. Minivans though, that's over. There are packaging considerations.

Re:User error

[Anonymous Coward]

Christ america, what is wrong with manual?

1995 is calling, and wants you back.

These days, manuals get crappy fuel economy; autos beat them every time. Autos also beat them in performance: they can shift much faster than you can.

Face it, technology has improved and rendered manual transmissions obsolete.

And they're getting better still: pretty soon, we can expect CVTs to mostly replace traditional automatics. That is, until electric cars render transmissions completely obsolete.

My last two manual transmission cars went over 200,000 miles. Never had to replace a clutch, because I know how to drive.

Then I got suckered into that buttery smooth CVT, which started slipping at 150,000 miles. I was pissed, since the rest of the car worked perfectly.

Back to a stick shift again. It's called the K.I.S.S. principle, and I'm not worried about 2-3MPG less in fuel economy as much as I am replacing cars prematurely. That's bullshit.

Re:User error

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh no maintain a steady flow of traffic rather than coming to a stop every few car lengths.

Re:User error

[Jonathan_S]

Locking Torque converters have been the rule for a LONG time, like since the 70's... With all due respect for the guys from Car Talk, this *helps* with the efficiency, but there still is some energy losses due to the necessity of running the automatic part of the transmission. You have to keep the shift clutches engaged, that takes hydraulic pressure which implies a pump is running someplace. You also must circulate the transmission fluid to keep the various things lubricated and cool, which takes some power too. Power consumption in the transmission means less power for driving getting to the wheels.

I'm not saying the differential between the automatic and the manual is all that much these days, it's not, but if you are on the highway the manual is going to be better. Now if you want to argue that it's unlikely that your average skilled driver would be able to achieve better gas mileage in a mixed environment of city and highway driving on their manual, that for 99.9% of drivers would do better on an automatic, I can only agree with you. However, just straight out driving down the road at highway speed, not shifting, that manual is going to be hard to beat, all things being equal.

Of course things are rarely equal. For example (outside of big rig trucks) manual transmissions seem to top out at 6 gears, while most automatics are now at least 7 with some having 8, or even 9 gears. (A far cry from the old 3 speed automatics).

That gives a better chance that the automatic can select a more ideal gear ratio for your speed than the manual. Potentially having the engine at a better RPM could more than offset the parasitic losses of the automatic transmission.

Re:User error

[virtual_mps]

Old imports got incredible fuel economy. They also weighed as much as a go-kart, had zero safety features, and spewed emissions like they were going out of style (which, in fact, they were). Apples and oranges.

Re:User error

[Anonymous Coward]

Too bad the manual driver is going to speed like an idiot and negate the benefits they would have received.

Re:User error

[phorm]

Automatics also tend to have a heavier transmission. Any extra weight can add to reduced mileage. While I don't see this as much on modern cars, I *have* noticed that the automatics seem to go through brakes faster, which is likely due to a combination of having to brake more while stopping/stopped (transmission pulling forward instead of in neutral like many manuals) and because most people don't gear down on a slope in an auto like they would in a manual.

My main reason is control. My last auto always felt like the car wanted to drive me as soon as I took pressure off the brake. On varying road conditions, being able to pop the clutch has saved my bacon a few times. The more common situation is when I'm just starting to accelerate and push pressure on the gas, and something/somebody darts in front of my car. It's faster to pop the clutch and cease acceleration than release the gas and then brake. This has worked well when some Darwin-award-nonimee racing down a heavy slope on a skateboard (and/or often black clothes) at night runs a red when I'm starting to proceed through a green.

Re:User error

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, and the fridge with a light in it uses more electricity than one without, but really, it isn't even a measurable difference.

Re:User error

[lgw]

Yes, and they aren't great. Friend of mine is an engineer at a car company - these are experiments to see if the reliability problems can be solved (and the Civic had a CVT ages ago, BTW, a friend drove one). At low enough power they work OK, but a belt is just no substitute for gears for durability and ability to scale up power-wise. Mercedes would love to offer a CVT for the S Class - even smoother power delivery - but it just can't be made to work, at least not yet.

Re:User error

[Anonymous Coward]

A/Ts still have more losses, more spinning gears and oil bath.

Re:User error

[Grishnakh]

I'm not saying the differential between the automatic and the manual is all that much these days, it's not, but if you are on the highway the manual is going to be better.

You're 100% wrong, for new cars. Go look at *any* 2015-16 car offered in both manual and automatic and compare the highway fuel economy (and the city economy too, while you're at it). The automatic will *always* beat the manual.

There's a simple reason for this: modern automatics have at least as many speeds as manuals, and their tallest gears are taller than those on the manuals. The manual simply cannot get equivalent fuel economy when it's running the engine 1000rpm higher in 6th gear. And there's a simple reason for this: automatics are close to lugging the engine, but they don't dip low enough to cause problems because they just downshift when they need to, since they can do it in milliseconds. Manual drivers can't, so they make the gear ratios lower so a driver stomping on the gas in 6th when passing on the highway actually gets some throttle response instead of lugging the engine. Also, I think there's an assumption that manual drivers just don't care about fuel economy so they intentionally pick lower ratios (and final-drive ratio) for better performance.

Re:User error

[RyoShin]

#3: Would-be car thieves that never learned to drive stick will fail at stealing your manual-shift vehicle or just leave your it alone. It's not completely theft proof, but it dwindles the pool tremendously, doubly so if the vehicle in question is a generic vehicle (not something high dollar/rare)

Re:User error

[Grishnakh]

What model year was the CVT car? 150k miles is probably 10 years' worth of use unless you drive a ridiculous amount per year. CVT tech has improved in the last 10-20 years I'm sure, especially if Honda is adopting it.

Re:User error

[Khyber]

I easily got 40 MPG. The L20 version I had, with unibody construction, was a 3-door with a 3A-SU engine, roughly one ton (why it came with a 750 kilogram jack, beyond me.) It had good acceleration, too, and able to hit 55MPH in second. It was a speedy little buggy.

Re:User error

[gzuckier]

Ones I can name right now.

Chevy Corvette Chevy Camaro Chevy SS Ford Mustang Dodge Challenger Dodge Dart Dodge Viper

civic si
miata
subaru brz
porsche 911
porsche cayman
fiat abarth
bmw m series
golf r
cadillac ats-v
jaguar xe
focus rs
mini jcw
aston martin vantage
and, just to round out the list, Ram with the Cummins diesel.
and wrangler rubicon
ironic how many of these manuals are made by fiajeepler, given the topic.

Re:User error

[gzuckier]

Great list! Now try to expand it to include a large sedan, full-size pickup truck or minivan.

ram with the cummins diesel. that's about it.

Re:User error

[mrchaotica]

The Cadillac CTS is a mid-size sedan. The large sedan, the XTS, is only available in automatic.

As far as I know, the only full-size truck with a stick is the Cummins <strike>Dodge</strike> Ram (and I didn't realize that was actually still available until other posters pointed it out). I don't think that manual-transmission F-X50s or Chevy/GMC X500s (where X in the range [1, 3]) exist anymore, let alone a manual Toyota Tundra or Nissan Titan.

For minivans, packaging considerations should be surmountable -- the Mazda5 managed it (very nicely, I might add -- Mazda5s are fun to drive), and there's no reason (in theory) that a "5 on the tree" setup couldn't happen. The real reason is that manufacturers think nobody wants it.

Re:User error

[HornWumpus]

That is the benefit you dolt.

Re:User error

[HornWumpus]

You need to replaced the bug seats.

Replace them anyhow (Google 'VW bug ejection seats').

Re:User error

[HornWumpus]

Automatics don't just do what you ask. They won't overrev the motor by downshifting inappropriately (that's a _feature_ for the slushbox drivers that like them). They also won't just shift as soon as you click, sometimes they do sometimes they don't. They will get around to it.

Every slushbox control computer I'm aware of still reads manifold vacuum.

Re:User error

[HornWumpus]

An 87 already had an oxygen sensor and fuel injection or a computer controlled carb.

The were 95% as clean as any car today. You need to go to pre 1975 to find the really dirty motors.

Re:User error

[HornWumpus]

Last I looked, the service interval for a CVT belt was 50k miles. I doubt he got 150k with the original belt.

Re:User error

[virtual_mps]

I've stood behind an 87 tercel and I've stood behind a new toyota. There is a difference you can smell. 1975 was one inflection point in emissions with the addition of catalytic converters, 81 was another point with the addition of three way converters, 94 was another with the Phase 1 standards, etc. The high mileage tercels were still carburetted, and there's a reason nobody tries to meet current emission standards with a carb. The new cars are definitely cleaner, and most of the emissions controls reduce MPG. (Other things have improved MPG, like aerodynamics, variable displacement engines, etc., so it's not a straight line downward.)

Re:User error

[HornWumpus]

The big one was O2 sensors. That car was only slightly dirtier then a new car. Of course the one you behind was likely broken.

Re:User error

[Anonymous Coward]

In city or cross-country driving, certain types of automatics can actually be more efficient than manuals, mainly because due to limits of human attention and accuracy a manual will more-or-less constantly be in the wrong gear under these kind of circumstances. For example, the Suzuki Kizashi is available both with manual 6-gear transmission, and with an automatic continuously variable transmission. Turns out that on the highway, the manual transmission can be more efficient, but in city traffic the CVT model performs best, which might surprise some of you considering that the Kizashi uses a V-belt CVT, which has a reputation of high friction losses between the V-belt and the cones. These are in all likelihood why the manual version performs better on the highway, but in city traffic the fact that the car is always operating at the right gear ratio more than compensates for the V-belt losses.

not surprised

[Anonymous Coward]

These POS cars are typically rental cars. I frequently work with people who get them as such, and on every trip there is always an "oops" tryigng to change gears.

I'm all for progress and change but sometimes you need to think about what happens when you change something that hasn't really changed in a generation.

Key Lock

[bartosek]

My Kia won't let me take the key out of the ignition unless the shifter is in park. You're saying my econobox has more safety features than a luxury Jeep?

Re:Key Lock

[Anonymous Coward]

Sucks for you Kia doesn't have keyless ignition...

Re: Key Lock

[adolf]

Have you tried removing the key in neutral?

Re: Key Lock

[Anonymous Coward]

Why lie? I work for a Kia dealership and according to our service manager, ever Kia ever sold on the US allows you to remove the keys while in neutral.

Re:Key Lock

[arth1]

My Kia won't let me take the key out of the ignition unless the shifter is in park. You're saying my econobox has more safety features than a luxury Jeep?

Modern cars beyond old-design entry level models tend to not have ignition keys you have to physically insert. Keeping it in the pocket is good enough.

However, they normally won't let you turn the engine off unless you're in park, the exception being tow/car wash mode, where you have to jump through an extra hoop to say that yes, you want to leave it in neutral.

Re: Key Lock

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't feed the troll. bartosek is just a damn lying troll. He is the type of piece of shit that is destroying this site.

Re:Key Lock

[Anonymous Coward]

My Kia won't let me take the key out of the ignition unless the shifter is in park. You're saying my econobox has more safety features than a luxury Jeep?

My old Honda was like that as well. My Lexus has pushbutton start but if you open the door with the shifter in anything but Park all sorts of warning alarms sound and messages come up on the dashboard, the engine will turn off but the car stays in accessory mode and nags you until you properly put it into Park.

Re: Key Lock

[Anonymous Coward]

That is a requirement of federal law so bragging about Kia supporting it is disingenuous.

Re:Key Lock

[Anonymous Coward]

Guess I'm lucky that my new Escape (with push to start) throws a fit when you try to turn it off without sticking it in park. Even if you stick it in neutral, it chimes to make sure that the hand brake is set (unless being towed). And thank the gods that Ford opted to stay with the handbrake lever instead of the new electronic parking crap that's common these days...

That being said, I just make sure that I use my parking brake all the time. Seeing as 'Park' just locks the transmission and doesn't really set the parking brake. You'd think that with the introduction of the electronic version that it'd do it automatically now...

Re: Key Lock

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe he just hates America which is why he is pretending to not understand.

Re: Key Lock

[Anonymous Coward]

It's ibvious he doesn't like Asians.

Re:Key Lock

[Anonymous Coward]

Why would that suck for him? Keyless ignition has yet to demonstrate a benefit, and has demonstrated that it's a hazard because it takes longer to turn the engine off in a crisis such as a stuck accelerator.

Re:Key Lock

[Virtucon]

yes.

Re:Key Lock

[Anonymous Coward]

Modern cars beyond old-design entry level models tend to not have ignition keys you have to physically insert. Keeping it in the pocket is good enough.

One major benefit being that as long as you keep the keyfob in your pocket you'll never lock yourself out of the car.

Re:Key Lock

[Phil Urich]

And of course, especially when it's colder out, tons of assholes---sorry, I mean "people"---leave their cars running when they go into a store or such.

Re:Key Lock

[David_Hart]

My Kia won't let me take the key out of the ignition unless the shifter is in park. You're saying my econobox has more safety features than a luxury Jeep?

I believe that all of the Jeeps now have keyless ignition... No key to remove...

Plus, the article clearly says that many of these cases are when people are leaving the car running. In these situations, they wouldn't be taking out the key, even in the Kia. For example, when getting out of the car to throw something in the back, to pick someone up, etc.

Re:Key Lock

[Anonymous Coward]

The Jeep has Push Button Start.

Re:Key Lock

[Trax3001BBS]

And of course, especially when it's colder out, tons of assholes---sorry, I mean "people"---leave their cars running when they go into a store or such.

Ah Alaska and it's required laws, during the winter it's illegal to leave your car running while away from it. It could be so cold that someone would rather take the car to where they were headed and just leave it there, not stealing it in the broad sense, just a matter of survival.

There is always a plug in for your block heater when ever long term/overnight parking is required.

Principle of least astonishment

[stanjo74]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

Time to shift gears

[penguinoid]

I guess it's time to shift gears and try something else.

Seat switch?

[Anonymous Coward]

In this day and age of auto-parking and self-driving car it seems trivial to have software look at inputs like vehicle speed of zero, the shifter being moved (even if it doesn't make it into Park), the engine off, the door being opened, the human no longer in the seat, etc., and just electromechanically engage the parking pawl. If someone needs neutral, provide an override.

Re:Seat switch?

[Grishnakh]

You're asking way too much. Remember, this is Chrysler/Jeep we're talking about here.... This company survives purely because of 1) fleet sales to rental car companies and idiotic local governments, and 2) cultist morons who buy Jeeps because "it's a Jeep thing, you wouldn't understand". Even the Apple cultists are a lot smarter than the Jeep cultists.

Re:Seat switch?

[bobbied]

Man, I'd hate to try and push that car off the road by myself...

Re:Seat switch?

[Anonymous Coward]

Did you miss the 'allow for putting in to neutral as an override' part?

Seriously how hard is it to check for and create a default state of 'parked' for 'foot on brake, car not in motion, ignition is in the off state" (note that is not necessarily 'car in the off state' either in the event of getting to the 'car out of gas' state. :-))...& than making it possible & relatively simple to shift in to 'neutral mode' to allow the driver to get out & push the car off the road. In fact with some (most new cars now?) that is the 'default state before being able to turn on the car'...e.g. 'foot on brake, car not in motion, car is off' is the state required to turn the car on...I purposely left out the 'transmission is in park' state since you should be able to turn the car on with the transmission in neutral.

In any case, its not rocket science & to provide at least a beeping and a flashing indicator suggesting 'car in gear' would be better than what Chrysler/Jeep did here.

Re:Seat switch?

[BronsCon]

And even at that, if the car is stopped, foot on brake, and the driver opens the door or turns the engine off, stop the engine and, well... what's the point of going all-electronic if not so that it can shift into park automatically? Car on, engine off? Allow shifting from park to neutral as an override, then remain in neutral when turned off from that state. This should be pretty basic safety protocol by now; and these people call themselves engineers?

Re:Seat switch?

[Anonymous Coward]

Even the cheapest of ride on mowers have a seat switch to cut the engine when you lift your arse out of the seat.

Re:Seat switch?

[gzuckier]

You're asking way too much. Remember, this is Chrysler/Jeep we're talking about here.... This company survives purely because of 1) fleet sales to rental car companies and idiotic local governments, and 2) cultist morons who buy Jeeps because "it's a Jeep thing, you wouldn't understand". Even the Apple cultists are a lot smarter than the Jeep cultists.

naw, jeep has some valuable patents on 4wd. that's why kaiser bought it from willys in the first place, and american motors bought it from kaiser, and chrysler bought it from american motors, and why mercedes bought chrysler, and now why fiat bought it from mercedes.

Re:Seat switch?

[Grishnakh]

Huh? That Kaiser, Willys, AMC, etc. stuff is all ancient history. Patents only last 20 years. Maybe if they've come up with some new patentable stuff since 1996, sure, but anything older than that is public domain now. And I have a hard time believing anything really all that new and valuable has been done with 4WD since 1996. AWD is a different story; there's been a lot of advances there, but that hasn't been with Jeep, that's been with the Japanese and Euros, especially Subaru. Mazda's even got some new on-demand AWD system in their CUVs which they claim doesn't even have a fuel economy impact, aside from the added weight of the system.

Re:Seat switch?

[HornWumpus]

There haven't been any real advances in AWD sense the orignal Audi Quattro S. It already had electronic locking diffs, center and rear and a good strong turbo 5.

Of course that was the original slightly detuned rally champion. Later years of Quattro got much lamer.

Fire the guy who designed this...

[superdave80]

returning to its center position once you've selected your gear.

Who thought THAT was a good idea? So they thought it would be a good idea to have a shifter be in the same position REGARDLESS OF WHETHER IT IS IN NEUTRAL, DRIVE, REVERSE, OR PARK? Man, I'm amazed that got beyond the first round of design review.

Re:Fire the guy who designed this...

[HornWumpus]

The guy that invented the sequential motorcycle transmission? Seriously, this isn't new at all.

Re:Fire the guy who designed this...

[GrahamCox]

I agree it's pretty stupid, but the stupidity is in making the shifter look exactly like the traditional shifter. Some cars have had sequential shifters for some time now ("flappy paddles") and they stay in the same position whatever gear you're in, so that part of it isn't the problem. The problem is the placement and appearance of the control, which misleads the driver into thinking it works differently than it actually does.

Sequential gearboxes are a good thing in some situations - they're faster to shift than traditional manual or auto boxes (at the expense of making getting into reverse a nuisance), but that really only matters for performance cars. It's pointless putting it into a shitty rental box, but if you do, use flappy paddles, FFS.

Re:Fire the guy who designed this...

[dwywit]

Exactly. With rare exceptions (such as kid's entry-level bikes), motorbikes have a manual clutch and a foot-operated sequential shift gearbox. It's one of the first things you learn, i.e. how to coordinate throttle, clutch, and gears to be in the right gear at the right time.

Except that riding a motorcycle generally takes more concentration, more engagement with the vehicle itself, so those skills will be lacking unless you've actually spent some time on a motorbike, and the vast majority of cagers have not been trained to ride a motorbike. They're just not used to that level of engagement with the vehicle and the process of driving.

EVERYONE should be required to undertake training on a motorbike before getting a licence. A pipe dream, but there'd be a lot less accidents.

Re:Fire the guy who designed this...

[BarbaraHudson]

Motorcycles don't have park, and only overstuffed pigs meant to be ridden by overstuffed pigs have a reverse.

Re:Fire the guy who designed this...

[Tablizer]

returning to its center position once you've selected your gear...Who thought THAT was a good idea?

Maybe a gambling addict used to traditional slot machines. And it is a gamble to drivers.

Re:Fire the guy who designed this...

[superdave80]

Too bad this is neither for a motorcycle OR a manual transmission...

Re:Fire the guy who designed this...

[sjames]

If the cars had a foot pedal you step on to cycle through the gears and no reverse or park you'd be right.

Re:Fire the guy who designed this...

[Trax3001BBS]

returning to its center position once you've selected your gear.

Who thought THAT was a good idea? So they thought it would be a good idea to have a shifter be in the same position REGARDLESS OF WHETHER IT IS IN NEUTRAL, DRIVE, REVERSE, OR PARK? Man, I'm amazed that got beyond the first round of design review.

Actually I blame this on the CAD system, unless safe guards were bypassed.

Benz has the same problem

[Anonymous Coward]

I read a article recently telling how a magazine editor bumped a $200,000 car into another because the electronic park button isn't normal.
Protip. If it ain't broke. Don't try to fix it.

Removing safety is progress

[Anonymous Coward]

Removing a safety feature is now progress? This would be fixed with a really simple interlock that puts the vehicle in park if you're not moving more than 3 MPH and a door opens. Easy.

Re:Removing safety is progress

[Anonymous Coward]

That works unless I run out of gas (or mechanical failure) and I have to push and steer the car ...

Jeep? Not so much

[Anonymous Coward]

One of the first things President Obama did after arriving in the White House was to steal Chrysler (the company that made Jeeps) from its shareholders, many of whom were middle class retirees, and essentially GIVE the company to Fiat. The price Fiat paid was essentially a token, and the President's team insisted the buyer be a foreign company. They company's "Jeep" brand had already been degraded during the Chrysler/Daimler years when a Euro-designed vehicle was re-branded as a "Jeep" (the The Jeep Liberty) and presented to the public as a newer better Cherokee (which it is NOT). The Liberty was bad enough, but the stuff rolling out now under the name "Jeep Cherokee" are just cars pretending to be SUVs and have little in common with what everybody used to think of as a "Jeep". As for a bad user-interface? It's a FIAT with the name "Jeep" stamped on it!

Re:Jeep? Not so much

[HornWumpus]

The Cherokee was bad enough.

They (Chrysler, GM, Ford, Rover, Toyota) 'as a group' have succeeded in making trucks drive like cars. Only downside, ruined them as trucks/offroad.

Re:Jeep? Not so much

[David_Hart]

One of the first things President Obama did after arriving in the White House was to steal Chrysler (the company that made Jeeps) from its shareholders, many of whom were middle class retirees, and essentially GIVE the company to Fiat. The price Fiat paid was essentially a token, and the President's team insisted the buyer be a foreign company. They company's "Jeep" brand had already been degraded during the Chrysler/Daimler years when a Euro-designed vehicle was re-branded as a "Jeep" (the The Jeep Liberty) and presented to the public as a newer better Cherokee (which it is NOT). The Liberty was bad enough, but the stuff rolling out now under the name "Jeep Cherokee" are just cars pretending to be SUVs and have little in common with what everybody used to think of as a "Jeep". As for a bad user-interface? It's a FIAT with the name "Jeep" stamped on it!

There wasn't anything special about those older Jeeps that you mention. Yeah, they looked more rugged, but that was about it. What has always differentiated Jeeps from other trucks is the 4WD system. All of the models that you mentioned have some form of the Jeep 4WD that are probably just as or more capable than the older systems. On top of that, Jeep continues to offer their higher end 4WD system on various trim levels (i.e. the Trailhawk). For example, I've seen many examples on youtube of people taking a 2014 Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited (my car) off-roading and it holding it's own.

My thought is that you've never tested the capabilities of the modern Jeep and that it's the looks that you don't like...

Re:Jeep? Not so much

[TwoUtes]

Yes ,but... trucks and SUV's have become soft and squishy because that's what buyers wanted. Women wanted to drive big trucks, but didn't want their delicate bottoms rattled on bumpy roads. As a result, you can't get anything to play off-road in unless you spend an additional bucket of cash in the aftermarket. Shame, but that is how the market works.

Re:Jeep? Not so much

[drinkypoo]

As a result, you can't get anything to play off-road in unless you spend an additional bucket of cash in the aftermarket. Shame, but that is how the market works.

Luckily there are absolute shitloads of trucks just lying around waiting to be hopped up, and available for little to no money. You can get OBS F-Body trucks literally all day... out here in California they're even close enough to "no rust" as makes no difference. How many do you want? You're going to rip out the powertrain anyway, right?

Re:Jeep? Not so much

[drinkypoo]

There wasn't anything special about those older Jeeps that you mention. Yeah, they looked more rugged, but that was about it.

There was something special about older Jeeps. They were cheap to modify, and they had more flex. Leaf springs are heavy and have inferior ride, but they offer more suspension travel and they mounted them under the axles... so you could cheaply use a shackle flip kit to do a suspension lift. On the other hand, they typically didn't come with locking diffs. The modern vehicles use EBD to maintain traction while crawling at low speeds, which means they can actually traverse things that the older stock vehicles can't. On the gripping hand, who goes off-road with an old Jeep without getting at least one locker?

The problem now is just finding donors for modification, though. At this point it might actually be cheaper to buy a tube frame. There are a few tube buggy frames under 5k...

Re:Jeep? Not so much

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually older Jeeps are pretty damn sturdy, except for the electric systems. They were using the cast-iron 4.0 six and a solid front axle up until at least 2002, I think. I've driven a couple of them into the ground and they take a good deal of abuse.

Re:Jeep? Not so much

[HornWumpus]

You get (for as you say little or no money):

A 3/4 ton Dodge (can be wrecked).

A 1/2 ton Dodge.

A Toyota truck or 4 Runner hopefully with solid axle in front.

A Suzuki 4x4.

Then you move the running gear (and brakes) down one truck, being sure to save engine from 3/4 ton dodge before discarding wreck. Throw away the Suzuki axles. 3 pretty capable 4x4s for 5 or 6 grand and a bunch of wrenching and welding. You should be able to take your pick, sell the other two and put money in your pockets.

Unless you're really good at welding drive-shafts, those are going to be a big expense.

Re:Jeep? Not so much

[HornWumpus]

Be fair, nobody really plays off-road in brand new trucks anyhow. By the time they are ready to be banged up, they need work anyhow.

Of course you see the exceptions. YouTube is full of brand new, endoed, F-350s etc. People watched one too many commercials.

Re:Jeep? Not so much

[GrahamCox]

steal Chrysler (the company that made Jeeps) from its shareholders

Haha, you capitalist ideologues make me laugh. What was the alternative? Apparently it was "too big to fail", but that was the only other option, which would have put hundreds of people out of work and closed the company for good. Where were the shareholders when the chips were down? Oh that's right, cashing in their shares before they tanked, thus ensuring they tanked.

As for Jeep being a Fiat, so what? Almost every car is made by someone else these days. BMW makes Rolls Royce and Mini, Land Rover is an Indian company, and so on. In fact, the US has owned most of the world's supposedly local brands through Ford and GM for most of the 20th century (and had no compunction in closing down many of them when things got tough, not giving a fuck for the workers of Saab, Vauxhall, Holden, etc). How does it feel now that the boot is on the other foot? Why is it like this? Because capitalism, that's why. If you don't like it, vote for a better system.

Re:Jeep? Not so much

[drinkypoo]

As for Jeep being a Fiat, so what?

It has completely ruined the brand for serious off-roading by going all unibody. That's fine, that's their prerogative, but the truth is that while the base vehicle is more capable off-road, they have destroyed the modification potential. Hell, it even makes sense, they're trying to sell more vehicles, not less of them. Focusing on a niche market would be stupid. Doesn't change the fact that their original core audience is going to have to go somewhere else now. They're spending their cachet.

Re:Jeep? Not so much

[HornWumpus]

Wranglers and Rams still have frames.

Those are the only real 4x4s Fiat/Chrysler make anyhow.

Cherokees etc have always been 'mall utility vehicles'. You basically never see them on trails.

Ah, here we go.

[Dereck1701]

"In Fiat Chrysler vehicles equipped with this shifter design, opening the driver's door when the car is not in Park triggers a chime and an instrument cluster alert, and the engine cannot be turned off with the car in gear"

I'm guessing "chime and alert" is a roundabout way of saying the car screams at you "hey moron, you left the car in gear!" the dash lights up like a Christmas tree.

Re:Ah, here we go.

[Anonymous Coward]

So failure mode is Don't shut off the Engine? Someone did something wrong, lets make the Problem worse?
Play the same ding-ding that it always plays? Why not a real warning sound? The engine running may not be notice if you are in a noisy area.

It is cheap, trying not to look cheap. Followed by it is obvious to the guys that designed it.
A quick test by anyone else would tell them you need a class to drive this car.

It is a Dumb Idea they already changed.
They may recall it themselves when the law suits start rolling in.

Re:Ah, here we go.

[Anonymous Coward]

But the fine article says the problem is people are turning their car off in Nuetral, not Drive (in gear).

Not surprising

[jbwolfe]

Drivers still depress the accelerator to the floor thinking they're stomping on the brakes. When it comes to designing automobiles for the masses, the consequences of every possible mistake should be anticipated. Then budget for the inevitable liability.

Re:Not surprising

[Trax3001BBS]

Drivers still depress the accelerator to the floor thinking they're stomping on the brakes. When it comes to designing automobiles for the masses, the consequences of every possible mistake should be anticipated. Then budget for the inevitable liability.

I used to drink and drive, it was legal at one time; only being told to take it careful making it home.

A loose full can of beer will fit excatly between the brake and floor pad of a VW, it's quite interesting when you find yourself in that position.

Re:Not surprising

[Lodlaiden]

Please tell me as one Bro to another Bro, that you did not waste that beer by crushing the can to save your own life.

Keyless ignition

[jbwolfe]

Anyone recall the Toyota driver whose accelerator got stuck (for whatever reason) and he reported he could not turn the engine off because it had a keyless ignition. Family of three lost their lives. Car makers need to avoid creating a paradigm that offers no benefit.

Re: Keyless ignition

[ljw1004]

Couldn't he shift into neutral ?

Re:Keyless ignition

[thegarbz]

I agree with the sentiment but you used a horrible example.

Do you recall dangling keys which can automatically cause the car to stop on the highway which killed people and caused GM to recall cars?
Do you recall people suffering incredibly knee injuries from simple accidents as a result of having their keys embedded in their legs?
Do you realise that the keys are in fact no longer in direct control of the engine like they used to be? The ECU now controls the engine start / stop which is great because you can't accidentally engage the starter while the car is already running, and the ECU is now able to auto/stop and auto/start the car.

The problem isn't the design of the key / button. It's the implementation.

Re:Keyless ignition

[Anonymous Coward]

Anyone recall the Toyota driver whose accelerator got stuck (for whatever reason) and he reported he could not turn the engine off because it had a keyless ignition.

Yes, I hear his new family is slowly starving to death because the escalator they were on broke down and isn't expected to be fixed for a few weeks.

Re:Keyless ignition

[dywolf]

I actually pushed a lady's car into a gas station yesterday on way home from work for that exact reason.

she was I a PT Cruiser, and the engine just started revving and trying to go, overpowering her brakes even she said..
luckily, she did have the presence of mind to shift into neutral until she could stop, and then shut off the engine.
she even demonstrated for me, and sure enough, soon as she started the car the throttle went to max.

she had stopped about 100' from an intersection, and there was a gas station just other side on corner, so pushed her across so at least she could get out, get a drink, whatever, safely rather than in the street (and of course, no longer blocking street too).

but now these electronic accelerators are common now (my car has one too, much as I'd prefer it didn't), and I hope they're teaching kids learning to drive what to do if one fails like that. older folks like the one yesterday though, they often don't know that they even have them, and what to do if it happens. like said, she was lucky she did; barreling into that major intersection would have been pretty bad.

Re:Keyless ignition

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

It must have happened many times before. But no one survived to tell why they drove the car at 90 mph and crashed. They just blamed the rash driver. Only when the drivers were able to call using their cell phones, it was realized what was really happening.

Re:Keyless ignition

[danomac]

There is a way to shut down the engine in an emergency but the driver didn't know how. It was later revealed that pressing and holding the button for 3-4 seconds would have shut the engine down. However, when your car is speeding out of control, that's a really long time, and given the panic at the time even if he did know how to do an emergency shutdown he probably didn't remember and/or didn't realize he didn't hold the button down long enough.

When in a panic situation four seconds seems like an eternity.

Re:Keyless ignition

[Anonymous Coward]

Most cars are keyless nowadays.

I own one of these. . .

[Zobeid]

I own one of these vehicles, and I can attest that the shifter design is awkward and confusing. The shifter paddles are another gripe, since they're effectively useless on this type of vehicle, but it's easy to hit one without realizing it when making a turn, then you have to figure out what's wrong, and then figure out how to get it out of manual mode. And the design fails are not limited to the shifter. All the controls in this vehicle are a user interface disaster. After owning mine for more than a year, I still find it awkward, and the touch screen interface for the infotainment and climate control still befuddles me at some times and infuriates me at others. And just to add an extra special touch of irritation, the stereo automatically comes on playing satellite radio whenever the vehicle is started, and there's no way to configure it not to. I've just learned to hit the mute button every time I start the car.

The utter failure of the Jeep's user interface was really pounded home to me when I was loaned a Tesla Model S for a week and a half. The huge touch panel looked alien at first glance, but I mastered most of its functions just by poking at it for about five minutes, and everything was golden after that.

Re:I own one of these. . .

[Anonymous Coward]

Most "car manufacturers" are nothing more than systems integrators, more so now with outdated "infotainment" computer systems running the whole show. Gone are the days when one manufacturer made eveything from the wheel hubs up.

Re:I own one of these. . .

[Grishnakh]

* I own one of these vehicles, and I can attest that the shifter design is awkward and confusing.

* The shifter paddles are another gripe...

* And the design fails are not limited to the shifter.

* All the controls in this vehicle are a user interface disaster.

* After owning mine for more than a year, I still find it awkward

* ...the touch screen interface for the infotainment and climate control still befuddles me at some times and infuriates me at others.

* And just to add an extra special touch of irritation,...

* The utter failure of the Jeep's user interface was really pounded home to me when I was loaned a Tesla Model S for a week and a half.

So why exactly did you buy this vehicle? Did you even test-drive it first? Please tell me that at least you were forced into the purchase by your overbearing wife or something (trust me, I know how that is... :-( ).

Re:I own one of these. . .

[Anonymous Coward]

>> design is awkward and confusing

Yeah, I heard it was designed by Windows 8 UI folks

Re:I own one of these. . .

[cavis]

I also own a 2014 Grand Cherokee... well, my live-in girlfriend does. I remember one day when she attempted to put it in park so that she could run into a convenience store for a moment, and she actually shifted into reverse. The whole time she was in the store, the car sat there in gear, and the only thing that kept the Jeep from rolling into traffic was the hill holder feature kept the car in place. Even when I drive it, I have to be very careful that I get the transmission into the correct gear.

With all these darn electronics...

[Anonymous Coward]

With all these darn electronics, you'd think someone would've thought to program the vehicle to stick itself in park (and activate the parking brakes as more vehicles use the electronic version these days) whenever the driver's door is opened. Not to mention, make a pile of racket or just shut itself off after the key leaves it's proximity zone (assuming keyless start, entry, etc).

God only knows that my 2016 Escape raises all sorts of hell if I open the door without sticking it in Park and it won't even let you shut the engine off. Exception being in Neutral where it's being towed and even then, it bellows at you to put the parking brake on (which is still a manual handbrake, thank goodness).

As a Canuck, I learned to use the parking brake all of the time. The winters are wacky in my area and strong winds have been known to cause cars to roll a few feet because someone didn't bother with setting their brakes.

The more you jazz it up

[p51d007]

The easier it is for it to screw up. I remember when the F-16 first came out, there were problems with the fly by wire system. Pilots were OVER correcting their flying, because they were use to the air pushing on the elevators, tail etc to give them feedback. Once they redid them, the problems stopped. Might be the same issue here. People are "use" to the traditional PNDL stick and aren't use to the electronic "no feedback" one. I drive a standard transmission. Have all my life. I always use the PARKING BRAKE when I exit the vehicle, even though I leave it in first gear, even on a flat surface. I don't know, but to me, that's why it is called a PARKING BRAKE. Just a little more safety. My work supplied vehicle is an automatic transmission, but I still use the parking brake out of habit.

Re:The more you jazz it up

[Trax3001BBS]

The easier it is for it to screw up.
I remember when the F-16 first came out, there were problems with the fly by wire system.
Pilots were OVER correcting their flying, because they were use to the air pushing on the elevators, tail etc to give
them feedback. Once they redid them, the problems stopped.

I did a school report on the new F-16, my Dad being in the Air Force played a big part in that. Screw the way it flew they demanded guns on the damn things as they didn't come with any at first, just bombs.

Re:The more you jazz it up

[drinkypoo]

I always use the PARKING BRAKE when I exit the vehicle, even though I leave it in first gear, even on a flat surface. I don't know, but to me, that's why it is called a PARKING BRAKE. Just a little more safety.

This. People who don't do this are idiots, it's not surprising if their cars are rolling away. If someone hits your car while it's parked this can keep it from rolling away and hitting another car, for which YOU could be found at fault. That alone should be sufficient motivation to set the damned brake.

Puppies

[swm]

We need a government program to buy puppies for all the UI/UX designers.
Then they will have something to fuss over, and will stop breaking our interfaces.

Not Progress

[SuperKendall]

Making an interface that makes it easy to think you are in park when you are not is NOT progress, it is a regression and the market (and lawyers) are busy properly stamping it out.

Re:Not Progress

[DutchSter]

When we were test driving new cars for my wife we noticed that the turn signals on 2015 Fords were different. The switch had the typical lane change feature (push down half way and it will return to neutral and flash the indicator three times), but even on a full actuation the switch returned to neutral. The signal kept flashing until you turned or canceled the signal by actuating it again. I remarked on that to the salesman and he said yeah Ford was getting a lot of complaints on it.

We otherwise liked the car so a few weeks later we wound up ordering a new one, but by then Ford had switched over to the 2016 model. When our 2016 came in the first thing I noticed is that the turn signals now functioned more traditionally. Lane change is still there but when you push it all the way down it will stay in that position.

Re:Not Progress

[SuperKendall]

That's a great example... I hate to say that nothing should ever change, but I guess it has to change in a way that is different enough you cannot be confused like that.

It was probably cheaper to not have to include the ability to lock at the bottom/top of the switching positions.... but like you said it seems like it would really confuse people, or make it more likely to forget the signal was on.

I have one of these vehicles...it's not that hard

[zerofoo]

This vehicle has an electronic gear selector. You move a lever forward or backward to select the gear.

There is a large display on the instrument cluster that tells you what gear you are in.

We've had this vehicle for 3 years with no issue. It took my wife and I approximately 1 trip to become comfortable with the new selector.

There is no problem with this design - drivers simply need to pay more attention to the act of driving instead of the million other things drivers do when they are behind the wheel.

It could have been worse

[PPH]

You could be driving a Land Rover

This is NOT new

[Archfeld]

For any of you 'gearheads' this is just a reincarnation of the old school ratchet shifter. I had a 'cuda when I was in HS, a loooong time ago, that had this type and a pistol grip shifting knob. It was cool then, not really sure what I think about it now...

Re:This is NOT new

[im_mac]

For any of you 'gearheads' this is just a reincarnation of the old school ratchet shifter. I had a 'cuda when I was in HS, a loooong time ago, that had this type and a pistol grip shifting knob. It was cool then, not really sure what I think about it now...

It may look the same but it's not. Apparently after selecting your gear, the shifter *returns to the center position*. If you're in park, the shifter is in the center, if you're in drive, the shifter is in the center position. Poor UI if you ask me.

Re:This is NOT new

[crtreece]

So what you are saying is, Dodge/Chrysler/Plymouth have been designing confusing shifters for over 30 years. Didn't they also have push-button-on-the-dash gear selection system in the 60's?

Re:This is NOT new

[avandesande]

Yup, had a 63 chrysler new yorker when I was a teen. Could fit a ton of friends in the back of that thing!

Re:This is NOT new

[Archfeld]

In a word yes, although if you look even further back in the old days you'll find some of the most confusing mechanisms imaginable. I think most drivers today would throw up their hands in surrender at the way they did it back then.

http://www.classiccarstodayonl...

Re:This is NOT new

[Archfeld]

That is the way the ratchet shifter worked. Click up a gear or down a gear but the actual position of the shifter remained in the center. If you were a real gearhead you had the indicator functioning correctly, but if you hacked it, the way most of my greasy friends and I did it, you had to always be aware of which gear you were in, kind of like a dirt bike or older motorcycle, forget where you were and things could get messy quickly.

http://ls1tech.com/forums/gear...

Re:This is NOT new

[im_mac]

I didn't realize that's how the ratchet shifter worked; I guess I never encountered one. You learn something new everyday! I will say that visually the one from the article looks just like what was in my grandmother's mid-80s car, which definitely wasn't a ratchet.

Two things...

[Anonymous Coward]

1. Many ppl have said, or some variation, 'why fix it when it ain't broken'. I agree with that, but, they made a decision to change something. Not much we can do about it...

2. Can't fix stupid. While the gear shift doesn't give the same kind of feedback as it used to, THERE'S STILL A GEAR INDICATOR SOMEWHERE, RIGHT???? FKN PAY ATTENTION

Re:Two things...

[n3r0.m4dski11z]

"THERE'S STILL A GEAR INDICATOR SOMEWHERE, RIGHT???? FKN PAY ATTENTION"

Whatever. I know if i place the selector all the way forward i am in park. Asking people to check the dash every time is only fun for people addicted to screens.
Furthermore, it isnt better and they seem to have recognized the problem already and changed the design:

FCA went to a different shifter design in model-year 2015 for the Dodge Charger and Chrysler 300, and changed the Jeep Grand Cherokee shifter for 2016.

Quietly change it without telling customers why. Where have we heard that before... Luckily no one died at least, but these big boys never admit it when they make a mistake. And those cars are still out there for the next 30 years.

Re:Two things...

[Anonymous Coward]

2. Can't fix stupid. While the gear shift doesn't give the same kind of feedback as it used to, THERE'S STILL A GEAR INDICATOR SOMEWHERE, RIGHT???? FKN PAY ATTENTION

I wonder how many of the accident victims were women dragging their handbag out of the passenger seat and across the gear selector as they were getting out of the vehicle?

#CantFixStupid

[Acid-Duck]

They didn't remove the gear indicator... Pay attention to it.

Parking brake

[Anonymous Coward]

This is only an issue because so few Americans use the parking brake. It is not an issue elsewhere in the world.

It's not the gear shift at fault

[Anonymous Coward]

Driver stupidity is the one and only cause of those rollaway accidents. Have they never wondered what the parking brake is for?

PEBGAS

[Anonymous Coward]

Problem Exists Between Gearstick and Seat

Not just FCA's...

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not "Jeep/Chrysler's" gearshift. It's supplier ZF's gearshift, and they also supply it to Audi...and likely others. But is the NHTSA looking into the A8 as well?

Maybe these tragic victims aren't qualified to operate an automobile.

They should have replaced the gearshift with...

[istartedi]

They should have replaced the gearshift with Slashdot Beta.

Gearshift causing accidents? Bollocks.

[l3v1]

Idiots Unable to Comprehend How to Operate Jeep/Chrysler's New Gearshift are Causing Accidents

See, looks all the better when fixed properly.

In other news, people who can't operate a vehicle, shouldn't.

Actually this is a failure on many levels

[Anonymous Coward]

Trying to save some cents by having a push-up, push-down design instead of the labyrinth type even Priuses have, colliding with american drivers unable to understand simple concepts like, well, I don't know, *handbrakes*?

Give these people a paddle shift and they'll luckily drive off a cliff and let their family blame the car. Well, at least I hope they won't be able to do it themselves, Darwin in action.

Its the dumb driver, but.

[Anonymous Coward]

Its really the dumb driver who carelessly can't put the vehicle into Park. But its Chrysler who will get the blame for making it difficult for dumb drivers. The trouble seems to be that Chrysler changed the familiar way in which people are used to setting a vehicle into Park. Its very much like the old school days with a lever on the steering column. When you wanted Park you just slammed it all the way to the left until it stopped. Then you knew you were in Park. You didn't need to verify this with a digital readout or anything. You knew, you were in Park.This could get expensive for Chrysler if they cannot find a way to retain this design without the need for a major revision. People are dumb, people do not change and this is why since the 70's a lot of safety devices are placed in the same locations and design like headlights, wipers, and gear shift in order to make every vehicle familiar to a driver. When you change that, you get this.

Column-mount is intuitive

[don_xvi]

I pull the lever DOWN when I want to put the HAMMER DOWN and I push the lever UP when I want to put the car up! This is my own opinion and does not represent my employer.

Negligence by the regulators

[etinin]

Everyone was ready to lambast VW for the diesel emissions scandal.
But, even with plenty of evidence other manufacturers were engaging in similar practices, everything seems to have been forgotten and we're back (mostly) to normal. Even that scandal wasn't caught by standard testing, but by a third-party.

At the end of the day, the manufacturers still do whatever they want and good luck to the consumers. If this kind of thing happens to a relatively expensive vehicle like this, I can't begin to imagine what "innovations" to trim costs on cheaper models might be doing, even though they don't have this kind of press coverage.

Don't you have handbrakes in America?

[Anonymous Coward]

You should always use both - put the car in gear AND apply the handbrake.

I can't get the key out without being in park.

[Anonymous Coward]

My old Mazda won't let you remove the key if you're not in PARK. There is a manual override on the shifter assembly that requires a key.

Re:I can't get the key out without being in park.

[Zobeid]

The Jeep doesn't have a key as such. It just has a fob that you can keep in your pocket.

Re:Hakko

[Anonymous Coward]

I like my hakko fx-888 has a on/off switch and a good old fashioned dial. but all there new stuff e.g hakko fx-888d is DIGITAL according to there marketing people.

It's a Jeep thing...

[ch_rob]

...you wouldn't understand. https://www.google.com/search?... The same thing that I think to myself as I see these cars dead along side of the road.

Re:I have one of these vehicles...it's not that ha

[swm]

TFA says 400K vehicles, 3 model years, 314 incidents.
Figure 365 days/year, 2 trips/day, we're talking ~ 1 billion trips.
That's an incident rate on the order of 300 per billion trips.

The problem isn't that it's "that hard".
The problem is that this design has pushed the incident rate up to 300/billion.

When you are talking incidents per billion, telling humans to "pay attention" won't help.

Not Just Apple! - I'm Sick Of Your Shit

[Anonymous Coward]

Whoa whoa whoa! I'm sick of you Apple fan boys trying to lay claim to every technological advancement.

The fact is that Microsoft products have been adding step, hurdles, and impediments to longstanding workflows for just as long, if not longer, than Apple.

This additional gear shifting procedural advancement could just easily have come from Microsoft, Apple and Chrysler are just riding their coat tails. Although, to be honest, Microsoft would have also relocated it to the glove box or trunk, so that you couldn't find it easily.

Rental cars rarely have manuals

[Zontar_Thing_From_Ve]

If you're the type of person that buys a 3500 pound object that can go 100+ MPH and fail to read the manual which results in the injury of another individual, you're an idiot.

Let me guess. You don't go out of town and rent cars do you? I sometimes do. Rental cars rarely have the manual with them. My most recent rental was in late September and I wish that car had the manual with it. I wanted to connect my iPhone to the car's audio system so I could get Google Maps to give me directions over that instead of the iPhone's own speaker. The problem was that previous owners had filled up the audio system's slots for Bluetooth connectivity and the audio system was so poorly designed (it was a Toyota by the way) that I could not figure out how to delete the old entries. I tried everything I could think of to get the old entries deleted and while I could select them, no button I pushed would actually delete them. I had no choice but to use my phone's speaker which was very much inconvenient.

Apple, via the Onion, beat you to it.

[beanpoppa]

Macbook Wheel

Rollaway accidents are always the *driver's* fault

[Anonymous Coward]

A driver who is used to placing their vehicle in park by pressing the shifter all the way forward may instead be setting it to neutral before exiting the vehicle.

Which isn't a problem if you set the fricking parking brake. Come on, people, take some responsibility for operating the vehicle correctly!

Use the handbrake?

[redback]

Use the handbrake, thats what its for!

mercedes

[Anonymous Coward]

i guess they missed the advancement from Mercedes, where upon opening the door at low speeds it slams the car in park. (watched one of my mechanic friends try to nicely park with in the lines and got a good laugh at his shock when the entire car just slammed to a stop

so...

[gzuckier]

whose driving instructor did NOT tell them to use the parking brake, even with an automatic?

Use the damn parking brake!

[h4ck7h3p14n37]

I don't understand why almost no one uses their parking brake when parking. It's designed to prevent exactly these types of situations.