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Alphabet's Nest To Deliberately Brick Revolv Hubs
Nest, a Google-owned company, will deliberately break one of its own products come May 15. The company has announced plans to disable Revolv, a hub that allows customers to electronically control lights in their homes. Entrepreneur Arlo Gilbert raises some important questions: Google/Nest's decision raises an interesting question. When software and hardware are intertwined, does a warranty mean you stop supporting the hardware or does it mean that the manufacturer can intentionally disable it without consequence? Tony Fadell seems to believe the latter. Tony believes he has the right to reach into your home and pull the plug on your Nest products. [...] To be clear, they are not simply ceasing to support the product, rather they are advising customers that on May 15th a container of hummus will actually be infinitely more useful than the Revolv hub. Google is intentionally bricking hardware that I own. That's a pretty blatant "fuck you" to every person who trusted in them and bought their hardware. They didn't post this notice until long after Google had made the acquisition, so these are Google's words under Tony Fadell's direction. Revolv was acquired by Nest in 2014, and it is believed that all Nest wanted from the acquisition was talent and workforce. An older version of Revolv website reveals that its hub was marketed to have "free lifetime service subscription," "free monthly updates for additional device support," and "free future firmware updates to automatically activate new radios." James Grimmelmann, a professor of Law, tweeted, "I didn't realize that Revolv promised free lifetime service. That makes the shutdown a deceptive trade practice as well as an unfair one." Aaron Parecki, co-founder of IndieWebCamp, wrote, "Your friendly reminder that without open standards, you're not "buying" smarthome hardware, you're renting it."
Oh, fuck it. Be evil and a jackass.
I've found that "lifetime" warranties are often for the product's lifetime, not the life of the owner.
So a lifetime warranty on a dishwasher might be 10 years. Not sure how they get away with that, but I've seen it more than once.
Google is intentionally bricking hardware that I own. That's a pretty blatant "fuck you" to every person who trusted in them and bought their hardware.
How many times has Google said "fuck you" to people who trusted them and how many times have those people returned to Google for more? Who actually trusts Google anymore?
If you want a vision of the future, imagine a youtube comments section scrolling - forever.
If you don't control it you don't own it. This is the ugly side of IoT. I remember when the first NASes came out, it was great. You could, with a little firewall tweaking, have a hosted file server that you could access from anywhere. Cloud storage is the antithesis of this notion. Someone else takes care of it for you, but it's totally out of your control. They aren't your bits anymore and they could vanish at any time. The wife didn't believe me until Yahoo music shutdown and the albums purchased were just gone forever. If you can help it, always have something YOU control. Don't waste your hard earned money on some corporation's little experiment.
I bet there are a lot of people who would have bought NEST thermostats and controller, but because Google bought them, they didn't want Google to track when they're in the house. Google's privacy invasion issue affects everything they make. I won't touch a Google self drive car, because I know that Google will data mine the f*ck out of it.
Even their Android radios have this problem:
http://mashable.com/2015/10/06/2017-porsche-911-android-auto/#MtZZYvWFOOqL
"A report from Motor Trend indicates that, in order to program Android Auto — Google's version of its mobile OS for in-dash infotainment systems —for the iconic Porsche sports car, the German automaker would have to turn over a mountain of data. The information required ranges from vehicle speed, throttle position, oil and coolant temperature, and engine rpm, to name a few — every time the car is turned on. "
So Porsche told them to fuck off, and I like Porsche more because of it. And Nest? Don't want it.
do no evil, my foot!
observe actions not words.
that means do not trust any of the big tech corps, nor their over hyped mediocre products, nor their vague public stances and pronouncements. if they can make even one cent profit, they will sell you.
Firstly: to anyone who owns a nest and is counting their fleeting blessings that this will never happen to them, see you on the front page in a few years.
now, for the rest the slashdotters. stop with the internet of things, synergy of disruptive technology, cloud based "AAS" marketing hootenany and put the cool-aid back. These companies have no vested interest in anything but their shareholders. when Sergei buys a new island, when Tim buys a new ultra-yacht, when Satya or Ballmer or Gates or whoever runs the redmond money choo choo these days buys a new public school system and turns it into a mandatory code camp you can be sure they dont care about you or any of the products you use. Kindle, Nest, Facebook, and Google all exist solely to capitalize on your inability to understand your role as the product of these services, not the consumer. putting it "in the cloud" or buying into a "sharing economy" or whatever some ginned up marketing thirty-something spun across her blog is just fancy buzz jargon for giving up freedom.
You cant recall my books just because a publisher rubs you the wrong way, because they sit on my shelf after I buy them. You cant recall my email because some sender became non-commital about it, because it lives on my server now. And you can spin it all you want, but you cant do anything about the fact that I use a VPN and adblocker when I surf your "free" wireless. I dont get to experience your SRVFAIL redirection landing page because my DNS queries are my own. And until this cloud based abortion you call the future takes my rights and freedoms into consideration, I'll just exist as one more user you cant track, cant optimise, and wont target properly whos "experience" is "degraded" because I chose something besides serfdom on the internet I was promised would revolutionize the future youre slowly ruining.
Good people go to bed earlier.
It is amazing to me how bad of a company Google actually is, and yet there is so little repercussion. But in retrospect it becomes increasingly clear. Google is just the next Microsoft. Due to the complexity of computers the entrenched OS player(s) simply has too much power to run rough shod over their customers, and there is nothing anyone can really do about it.
:T:R:A:N:S:
It looks a lot less slick, but it's functional and will only leak information that I choose to the wider intertubes. Also, it's pleasant to talk to and share some community with other like-minded anoraks (geeks, I think in the US). So it's Pi, Perl (yes, I do it for a rather meager living) and X10 (I am hoping to phase that out this year) and upgrades, enhancements at my own rhythm. I actually got burnt by Meraki: http://www.dslreports.com/show..., a while ago, not quite the same thing but hard lesson learnt. As the first post said, so concisely:
but not in my house...
On y va, qui mal y pense!
Google is intentionally bricking hardware that I own.
That word "own". I don't think it means what you think it means.
You don't "own" your Nest thermostat. You don't "own" your iPhone. You won't "own" your future self driving car.
If you want to own things, you have to buy things you can own. If you buy things that are owned by someone else after you fork over the money, well... that's on you.
It should only be OK to brick the devices if they refund the purchase price. Otherwise, it's theft.
Competition Good, Monopoly Bad.
"Lifetime" in a commercial sense is shorthand for "as long as we care to support the product" rather than "as long as the product works." The FTC, for example, lists 3 different interpretations of the term.
I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
Wait till their short attention span runs out and your 8 year old Alphabet car gets bricked rather than maintained. We need less of this fly by night tech in critical and long term installations.
Explain to me again why a home automation device that simply turns my lights on and off requires a company-owned server on the internet to operate?
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
TFA & other stuff I’ve read on this accuse them of taking an affirmative action to destroy the hardware, IE “intentionally bricked.” Reality is that they’re turning off servers that the hardware needs to function. Net effect to the consumer is the same, but the inflammatory language is inaccurate.
If Google sent down a kill packet or firmware update that was intended to ruin a piece of hardware that would otherwise continue to function as-is if they hadn’t done so, that’s “intentionally bricked.” If they shutdown a server farm that consumers aren’t paying any on-going fees to make use of, that’s a different thing. Google has an obligation to not destroy something you bought, but they’re not obligated to keep providing you free server time.
Basically what I’m trying to say is read the fine print and check your entitlement. You chose to pay money for a product that was dependent on someone else’s charity to keep working. You backed the wrong horse.
If you can’t smash everything it needs to work with a hammer, you don’t own it.
Internet of Things Owned By Somebody Else.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
California Code 1793.03(b) states:
(b) Every manufacturer making an express warranty with respect to
an electronic or appliance product described in subdivision (h), (i),
(j), or (k) of Section 9801 of the Business and Professions Code,
with a wholesale price to the retailer of one hundred dollars ($100)
or more, shall make available to service and repair facilities
sufficient service literature and functional parts to effect the
repair of a product for at least seven years after the date a product
model or type was manufactured, regardless of whether the seven-year
period exceeds the warranty period for the product.
Every Nest owner should be suing the fuck out of Google in a class-action suit in California right now.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
So, we buy the product, and they just decide when they'll kill it off, and they'll do it by remotely destroying it?
Yeah, enjoy your IoT bullshit, where other people decide what happens to products you purchase, decide they can do it without recourse, and just do it remotely.
Fuck that. This is yet another reason why this whole IoT thing is a completely terrible idea. If I bought it, it's MINE, not yours. Unless you plan on compensating for it, or replacing it, YOU do not get to destroy it.
And if they can reach in and destroy it, they're a hack or two away from someone else being able to do it just for the hell of it.
Nope, I'm neither buying it nor renting it ... because I'm not interested, because I don't trust the competence of the manufacturer, and now because you simply can't trust them to not be assholes.
Sorry, but unilaterally bricking a piece of consumer hardware is a dick move, and it basically says you don't give a crap about your customers. I sincerely hope this makes people realize they shouldn't give a crap about Nest.
Destroying someone else's property should be illegal. Oh, wait, without a bullshit EULA, it would be.
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
Sure, it has three leads and looks like a transistor, but how do you know what's inside?
It probably works just fine as a transistor while you're awake and only connects to Guangdong when you're sleeping.
you're welcome...
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
.
The problem with home automation nowadays is that you have to rely on "the cloud" or some company to continue to support the product.
As we are seeing with Revolv, such a reliance is a significant disadvantage.
Free lifetime means free for the lifetime of the product.... that product's life is about to end.
TiVo and others have fucked over consumers with their "lifetime" promises, nothing new here.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
or else. Clearly.
The mistake you made was thinking that your requirements were the ones that mattered to them.
I expect this Nest shit to harvest as much and as intimate of data about you as possible in the most invasive way possible to bombard you with ads. Because just like Facebook, you're not their customer, businesses trying to stuff your face with said ads are.
Luckily I have 0 interest in home automation after seeing the X 10 shit in the 90's.
Corporations are people, my friend. With all the rights and privileges including, free will and religious faith. But they are special people who can't be jailed, who can transfer all the assets to another coporation people, keep all the liabilities, and declare bankruptcy and dodge it all. Welcome to Coporation People, People Version 2, the reimagined bug fixed version of stupid people.
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
if you don't have the source and the ability to compile that source into working binaries, you don't actually own it.
Someone please correct me (I wasn't worried about that not happening). But doesn't the DMCA allow for a home brew software updates in the case of no longer supported hardware? The Resolv box seems very nice and functional. I am looking forward to a legal home-brew solution to make this a great platform now that google has gotten out of the way...
If you believe that something like Revolv will keep working forever and ever, that's just foolish. Of course, devices like this often stop functioning after a few years, either because the company decides to move on to different products, or because it goes out of business, or because it gets acquired. (The phrase "free lifetime service" doesn't mean your lifetime or the hardware lifetime, it means "lifetime as we define it".)
However, just because this is common and legal doesn't make it a good idea. This is a stupid PR move on Google's behalf. Keeping the hardware working could only cost them a couple of developers, they'd get useful feedback, and they could send customers a 50% off upgrade coupon when they come out with their own next-generation device, by which time the Revolv radios will probably be obsolete anyway and people will be itching to upgrade.
Any product that requires a client/server approach is vulnerable to this.
But even with open standards, if the server gets unplugged, you have to find another server. Maybe if you're a geek and have access to documentation and source code - you could set up another server - but for John Q. Public - they're not going to be able to do that. Even accessing the config data inside the device and telling it to go to a different server URL would be a major issue for 99% of people.
It's not really a new problem - we've had video games where people paid money to get the code, but the server "went away" subsequently. But IOT gear is much more likely to fall afoul of it than for most other products - and people are likely to be much more upset when a physical object is bricked than if some piece of software stops working.
It's hard to know how to handle this kind of problem. Designing products that don't require a server would be ideal - but there are plenty of cases where that's a ridiculous idea.
www.sjbaker.org
Companies do this because consumers are too stupid to configure the devices.
By having the device connect to home base the user doesn't have to know how to look up their IP address or configure dynamic DNS. The user registers the device during initial setup with the provider, then whenever they use the smartphone or web app they connect to the provider's server which redirects them to the device in their home.
Some devices don't require an Internet connection and can operate over the local network. If you know how to setup a VPN then you can connect to the devices over the Internet, but once again, the target consumer probably has no ability to do this themselves so they use a central service as a proxy.
This also shows the dangers of having a device depend on the cloud for its functionality, where the servers are run by a single private entity. As the summary indicates open standards can help, but so is the ability to be independent of cloud servers that are outside your personal network.
Hopefully someone will crack these or that Google will open source the device software. The cynical side of me has more faith in the former.
As for lifetime guarantees, there are no such thing, since in reality it translates to: life time warranty on the condition we don't get bought out.
Jumpstart the tartan drive.
...X-10 didn't exist until 1999 - that's 27 years for you....
Google is your friend. X10 has been around since the 1970's.
.
From The History of X-10
...In 1978, after several years of refining the technology, X10 products began to appear in Radio Shack stores. Shortly thereafter, X10 products appeared in Sears stores. A partnership with BSR was formed, known as X10 Ltd, and the BSR System X10 was born. The system at that time consisted of a 16 channel Command Console, A lamp module, and an Appliance module. Soon afterwards came the Wall Switch module and the first X10 Timer. ...
Yay! The Internet Of Things That Are Quickly Abandoned And No Longer Work!
"*SMACK* Please sir, may I spend another $300 on a gadget that will deliberately be made useless as soon as the warranty expires? Thank you sir! *SMACK*"
Yes, let's all dance around and worship the Internet Of Things That Suckers Buy, because companies really don't give a shit about YOU. Your money, well, they care about that but once they have it, "Fuck you!"
Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
LOL, as if open source has a better support record.
If it out of Warranty, it means you can still use it. However they are not responsible after that period for any defects in the product. This is true with software.
So if I have software that is out of Warranty, I can still use it, however if there is a security flaw, or problem with it, it would be fair of me to not expect the company to give me a free patch, or upgrade.
Now if I purchased the product via a contract, or as a service, once my term period of service has ended, it would be fair game for the company to cancel the service, if they no longer want to continue.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
X-10 didn't exist until 1999 - that's 27 years for you.
Over 35 years my fucking ass.
Do a little research...Radio Shack had this in the 80s.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
I can be moderated as Inciteful...
"In 1978, X10 products started to appear in RadioShack and Sears stores." (X-10 history). N.B. profanity does not help your case.
The internet disagrees with you:
http://home.planet.nl/~lhendrix/x10_history.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X10_(industry_standard)
arsehole, B is for bastard, C is for...
Ummm . . .
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
Began in 1975, Pretty sure I had units in the the late 80s . . .
Sold in Radio Shack stores in 1978... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X10_(industry_standard)
I've learned my lesson the hard way implement a Google APIs or use a Google service and poof gone the next day. Don't do business with Google. Don't depend on Google anything or be prepared to be fucked over without warning.
Vendors are increasingly under the delusion they can treat their customers like shit now that they have all the power and control all the strings with their cloud bullshit. But really all that happens customers get fucked over once, learn from the experience never to return.
The moral of the story is if your device won't operate standalone and requires someone else's server to operate then you are at risk either of having your device rendered useless or being turned into an expensive dumb device.
DropCams would be on that list, I wouldn't buy one specifically because they deliberately tie them to their server. At some point every current DropCam is going to be bricked. In a throwaway society where technology is rapidly advancing that might be acceptable to a lot of people. Other people aren't going to be interested in being on a 5 year replacement cycle for all their smart devices.
What the fuck are you on about? The X-10 domotics protocol was created in 1975.
Hey, some of us are reading from the year 2026.
Oh yeah, that reminds me, make sure not to put your Tesla in autonomous mode June 17th, 2023. Wow, that was a mess.
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
See this
Comment removed based on user account deletion
1999 - that's 27 years for you.
Why, do they have multiple personalities and are counting their time cumulatively?
Ask those buying Nest products right now.
Sorry, teleporters just kill you and then make a copy. A perfect, soul-less copy.
Everyone who agrees with parent should consider looking into running Linux full-time-- if they aren't already.
It's kinda hard for open source to do worse than bricking the entire device fleet intentionally, actually. You might have to isolate the device from threats to unpatched security holes, but you'd still be able to run it.
Good to see Google by any other name can still be relied on to continue yanking rugs out from underneath users. I was worried I wouldn't get my monthly schadenfreude fix anymore.
Someone had to do it.
In fact, they confirm that they ARE collecting data.
While literally pulling a TV trope with that "we do not collect the data...such as throttle position, oil temp, and coolant temp" bit.
Instead, data gets collected "only when it enhances driver safety or enables an important user experience, such as using GPS for mapping".
So basically, data gets collected only all the time.
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
the state can turn your car into useless junk by simply denying you a registration
But I can still make a mad dash for the border in it. And get all my stuff out of the glove compartment. Or sell it to someone who can register it.
What's really the issue here is that the average consumer has no clue as to the risk being taken on by a cloud product scheme, and thus has no way to compare competing products, so normal market pressures that would force companies to limbo at least under the "complete asshole" bar are rather absent.
Even the dumbass tech-fetishist modern consumer will eventually get sick of being repeatedly smacked in the forehead, but it seems to be taking a very long time these days and that market maturity gets harder to reach with the increasingly novel nature of modern products.
Someone had to do it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
X10 Wireless Technology, Inc. was an American subsidiary of a Hong Kong-Bermuda company best known for marketing wireless video cameras using controversial pop-under advertisements. It was founded in 1999 in Kent, Washington.
This is the x10 anyone thinks about. Not the missile system, not a Swedish train, or even Oak Ridge (of which X-10 was its designation.)
Every fucking last one of you try to use some fucking logic.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
No. IoT is totally orthogonal to all this As-A-Service nonsense. You could just as easily say "stop with the spreadsheets" since there already exist people who use Google Docs for that. "Stop with the music," since there are some people streaming from Spotify instead of their locally stored collections.
It's obvious that you have already spotted the absurdity of the twisted marriage between the tech and the idea "but it needs to be in our company's control, rather than in the user's control." So look at IoT through that same lens.
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
I switched from X10 to a combination of Zigbee and Z-Wave (with a long period of “nothing” in the middle) because of X10’s poltergeists waking people up with lights and radios no less than 20 times in a week. Any WAF it had - and it had accrued quite a head of steam by that point - died an ugly death.
Fortunately, Zigbee and Z-Wave are open standards; if I want to, I can kick together a home automation hub out of a Raspberry Pi and keep using everything I own except the wi-fi power strip (which was free, so I can only bring myself to care so much) and Quirky’s prototype garage-door sensor. (It’s a solid product - shame they went belly-up.)
I’m irked that I mistook a Lutron dimmer for Z-wave; Caseta wireless may be Homekit-enabled, but it’s expensive and proprietary to Lutron. It has its own remote, however, and that’s the only way it gets used, so no big loss.
I had a big X10 investment, and had just bought a bunch of in-wall switches, but there was no combination of housecode and device range that didn’t get trampled by somebody else nearby, or someone’s (electrically) noisy blender (commutated motors and universal (AC/DC) motors are renowned for the amount of electrical noise they produce) or smart meters, or whatever. It never got better, and when I tried to use them again five years later, the poltergeisting started again within three hours.
Z-wave, by comparison, has been bulletproof, and my only regret was that I went with that one Lutron module instead of a similar Z-wave box.
Those are merely the most convenient method to keep the car you own running.
You're free to build a wood gassification rig and modify the engine to run on that. You're free to modify it to run on high-proof alcohol and refine your own. In theory, you could strike oil on your own property and refine it in small scale to make your own gasoline. All options inconvenient and expensive, but possibly legal with certain safety and environmental restrictions to contend with.
You're probably not free (due to DMCA reverse engineering restrictions) to modify your Revolv to build your own version of their server architecture.
Let's agree to keep it simple.
Best Answer: Diesel. Runs on almost any fuel oil including vegetable oil, although petroleum-based fuel oils are easy to refine; it's definitely DIY-able if need be.
Next Best Answer: Alcohol would be the gasoline-powered alternative fuel, requires a doubling of the fuel:air ratio but that's it.
No need to go any more exotic than the above two, which cover ... let's see here ... oh, yeah, there it is .... ALL of the petroleum powered vehicles on the planet.