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France's After Work Email Ban Is 1 Step Closer To Reality (huffingtonpost.ca)
Jesse Ferreras, writing for Huffington Post: France is that much closer to becoming the first country to ban after-work emails. The country's lower parliamentary house passed a bill this week that would ban companies with 50 or more employees from sending emails outside regular work hours, BBC News reported. It now goes to the Senate, where members will study it before sending it back to the National Assembly to enshrine it in French law. The bill would make businesses come up with hours during which employees cannot check or send emails. And it comes as workers are finding it increasingly difficult to detach themselves from work, Socialist MP Benoit Hamon told BBC News.Hamon adds: "Employees physically leave the office, but they do not leave their work. They remain attached by a kind of electronic leash -- like a dog. The texts, the messages, the emails -- they colonize the life of the individual to the point where he or she eventually breaks down."
Good for them, but unless every country follows suit, France is fucked.
pagers
phone calls
snail-mail
boss following you to a restaurant to "just so happen" to get the table next to you
mandatory office holiday parties
"optional" (really mandatory) office parties of any kind
and more, I know this list is lacking.
For some places with 24 hour coverage this could workout great, but for others, the employer might simply institute shifts. Right now where I'm working, we're basically a daytime shop, though we respond to emergencies at any time (and they're really not infrequent). I really wouldn't want to start having to work nights, especially the graveyard shift, and just because something *might* go down.
Look back up at my post, now look back down, you're on the Internet. Now look back up. I'm a signature.
I still think it's legal for employers to beat employees here. We did finally get them to agree to only use a stick no thicker than a thumb, though. So, some progress.
SJW's don't eliminate discrimination. They just expropriate it for themselves.
You can just not check your e-mail all the time after hours... Even turn off the mail app on your phone. (Some phones you can schedule this!) But, no... We must protect people too stupid to stop working when they are home...
Nobody particularly likes that, at least not in the first world, but that's the world we live in.
The French are going to be left even further behind if they pass this. Then the economy will tank and extremists preaching nationalist solutions will take over.
if IT workers don't union up they will be canned and be training there H1B replacement who is willing to put in a 45-60+ hour week for 40K. With idea of being able to get emails on off days / after hours.
France becomes the first nation to declare it's only going to do business in one timezone.
[Workers] remain attached by a kind of electronic leash
That sounds like more of a personal problem to me. I get to be smug here because I only check my work mail when I'm not working on sick days (and even then usually just once in the morning and once in the afternoon--I'm sick after all so I need to get better). And that's just because I'm such a nice person. Haven't had official on call duties in the present job, but always remember to get a company phone in addition to your personal one if you need to be on call. If I get a text or desperate on my personal phone about some sky-is-falling omg-can't-wait-for-tomorrow change request I really don't feel bad about ignoring it. My phone was charging, and I was in the other room. Too bad.
Now, on the other hand, what we have here is a tragedy of the commons.
I can understand where this might be within the bailiwick of perhaps a union. However, I can't say I'm entirely unopposed to a government that has labor laws adding to its labor laws that employees can't be contacted outside of their working hours. It's the only way to defeat the tragedy of the commons.
As an American, no, we wouldn't want or need a law like this. It would be unambiguously an anti-freedom nosey-government sort of thing. Blech.
Except when my wife is checking her emails. Then suddenly I wish the government were slapping everyone's wrists, controlling their behavior against their will, and suppressing their freedom as much as possible. STOP DOING THAT, WIFE!! Come back to the here-and-now with me, dammit. Ok, I get it: the TV show we're watching, bores you. We can watch something else! Now put down that tablet.
What does that mean? That I as an employee am not allowed to send email to another employee outside of that employee's defined work hours? Or that the company will queue mail until that employee comes to the office? Or that employees are not required to check their email. If the latter that will be about as good as saying "don't come to the office when you are sick". But then guilt employees for staying home causing them to come to the office sick anyway.
-- Thou hast strayed far from the path of the Avatar.
"The bill would make businesses come up with hours during which employees cannot check or send email"
I looked the article hoping to get more detail on this, but it's still sorta vague. I'm assuming this is hours based on an individual's work schedule? If it was a number of hours set in stone across the board, seems like a company with clients spread across the globe would be hurt pretty bad. Sure you could hire more people and implement shift-work....I know people that like to work odd hours, but once that person decides to get a family, it becomes more difficult because their spouse and kids are on a different schedule. Seems more stressful than having to deal with after-work e-mails.
If you post as Anonymous Coward, don't expect a reply.
I want my French fries, and to eat them too! Can I dual citizenship?
Now that you've knocked out the scourge of after-hours work emails maybe you can work on some of the more minor problems facing the country, like repeated domestic terrorist attacks.
It could be better to allow employees not to read a mail, outside work hours. Anyway the bill comes from politics, people who, for most of them in France, never worked in a company and have no clue how the enterprise world runs ; there are certainly abuses. but the bill seems to be too peremptory.
Slashdot, fix the reply notifications... You won't get away with it...
I've worked with engineering organizations in both france and italy, they are pretty low productivity compared to anyone from US or Asia. This just makes them more worthless...pass a law like this, and there is no point in trying to work across the time difference to Europe. Running offices there is already way to expensive anyways due to all the other crazy regulations...
It's already pretty much impossible for US companies to contract to French companies or employ French workers. This means there will be even less US companies working with French ones.
Just because I can hook a shark from a boat, I do no offer to wrestle it in the water.
It's even more important to protect them.
How would this be enforced, exactly? Also, does it apply to the government, too? Somehow I can't imagine all government email communications ceasing at the end of the work day... what about emergencies? Also, what about phone calls?
Salaried IT workers are abused! We have lives. Maybe we should organize a strike ? Would the outsourced Indian teams support us? They get abused too. Here's an example but not limited to: NTT expects their System Engineers to be on call 24x7 .. expected 15 minute response time and NO ON CALL ROTATION. That's messed up! I'm sure my fellow Systems Engineers have lives too. I'm happily married, I got three sons, my wife is awesome. When I'm on call I don't fall into a deep sleep because I don't want to miss the phone ringing and I don't want the phone to wake up my wife. Plus WHO MONITORS THEIR EMAIL 24x7. NOT ME! I notified the company I work fall if it's an issue that requires after hours support then they must call me. I am not checking my emails 24x7. I own an off road vehicle as my daily driver. I need two hands to operate it. They are not going to hear me If I answer the phone while I am driving, the treads on the BFG KM2 wheels make some road noise.. I am used to it. I need those wheels when I go off road. They are lined with Kevlar. So far sharp rocks on the trails have not been a problem for me. The roads suck so bad in New England that you need a Jeep Wrangler as a daily driver or at some point you are going to need to repair your vehicle. I repaired the suspension on too many cars that I've used to commute. Now my toy is my commuter and it's built to handle anything the poor road conditions around where I live offer. Plus there hasn't been a train.
Why am I ranting ? It's because our career should not interfere with our lives after hours. It's become more and more intruding, and for what ? Even if you are the best at what you do we get a 2% raise ? And that's if we are lucky. Meanwhile characters that earn minimum raise get a boost to $12.00/hr ? What the frig.
Sure I get paid well, but damn I have a life.
If you are on calls after hours often that really drags your actual earning down.
We control the flow of data don't we ? Tired of being on call 24x7 with no rotation ? Tired of excessive hours after work ? After hours emails bugging the shit of ya ? Organize a strike! We need to find a way to get everyone involved... including those outsourced bastards.
Now if they would only block a drunk boss from calling you on a Saturday night and yelling and screaming at you for no real reason at all, that would be a good next step.
Although some may bristle and think this will cause a slow down of business, I disagree. It may make for a more efficient business with well-rested, lower stress employees.
I have seen so many e-mails sent overnight and in the wee hours of the morning from people that want to be seen as working extra time. It is kind of like the days of face time with the boss in the UK. You always leave after the boss leaves, so that it looks like you are a worker.
Simply make it a financial cost to the company for sending any e-mail to employees after work hours.
1 e-mail is instantly considered 4 hours of overtime pay. 2 is equal to 8, and so on.
If the employer doesn't want to pay the overtime, then they don't send e-mails. Period.
And the ISP's and servers have records of the e-mails being sent, so they can't deny it either.
I wouldn't want to work with anyone who has that sense of self importance and entitlement.
If I fuck up, I want to be screamed at; screaming is just another form of communication.
If some low skill minimum wage H1B can do your job well you are already in trouble.
This is why you can't get anything done there and the other countries with these insane labor laws that the people that WANT to work (me!) aren't allowed, and the people that produce more (me!) can reap no rewards
You have a problem if you need a law for this. A company should not let their employees have access to the email server in the first place when outside of work. That they do not do this just means the problem is with them.
Even within one timezone, not everyone works the same hours, so making some strict window of time when anyone can look at work email is retarded.
Stop employers from FORCING any employee to keep up with anything work related while off the clock without overtime compensation, and protect employees who refuse to do it from being terminated. Not keeping up with things in off hours should mean forfeiting the overtime, not the job.
Until parliament's network goes down 30 mins after work hours....and no one can come in to fix it until the following business day.
There is no H1B in France.
http://u.meelo.org/dilbert/callat4am.gif
Dogbert: You can create the illusion that you work long hours by leaving voice mails for your boss at 4 AM.
Dilbert: Hi, this is Dilbert. It's 4 AM and I'm in my underwear and I thought of you... oops... erase... oops... BEEP BEEP
Dogbert: Did you just send an obscene message to your boss?
Dilbert: No... I think I hit the group code.
What next?
Was it THAT hard to type out "one" in the title, or are there enough people now who would struggle reading something doesn't look like a text message?
Your not as good or important as you think you are.
So if Einstein wants to immigrate to the US, and we don't have full employment, you're going to kick his ass to the curb?
Personally, I think the free flow of labor is a good thing. I wouldn't mind going to work in e.g. Germany, Costa Rica, or Japan. Moving to another country is not for the faint of heart even if you don't have visa issues. I could develop this theme more, but I think that even you can come up with as many circumstances where immigration is good.
Those who advocate genocide deserve every protection afforded by law, and none afforded by common human decency.
Oh noes someone sent me an email after 5. I've been micro agressed, someone please powder my butt.
I kind of like the idea that I not be required to check my email away from work, but I personally like to get a view of my inbox about an hour before work in the morning. I feel more comfortable knowing sort of what I am going to face when I get to my desk. I also like to get there a few minutes early to settle in 'gracefully' rather than have my admin hanging over my shoulder prodding me that so and so is waiting in the conference room and boss #2 wants an 'immediate' update on some project the instant I get in the office.
errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
These days it seems they're willing to put anyone in any position as long as they will work for bottom dollar.... and it's not their position.
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
Not again, and it isn't powder.
Previous posters are corrects, the goal is to stop abuse and a situation which is becoming too common and too abusive.
If there's no immediate urgency, just wait for the day after, else put shifts or an on call team.
That costs money , but the company is actually working for an extended time, and most likely making more money, so better officialise it.
If you re worrying about the well being of you re company, you ll just answer late at night thinking it might important. Then it will become a habit and you ll do it everyday. And peoples knowing that you'll answer will contact you more often. I had on duty peoples phoning me when i wasn't on call the week end. At one point i had phone calls every week end, not making any money from it, because i was not "officially" on duty.
Peoples didn't take this habit to call me, from one day to another, it took a few years. And that s what the other poster is referring to. Once it becomes the norm, peoples who don't answer the week end, get marked as not interested in their work, but they aren't paid either to do this either. And yes at one point it becomes the norm for the whole job branch to be reachable 24/24.
Then why takes expensive contracts with super fast SLA and everything if peoples answer all the time? The whole market get screwed. At one point they try to officialise what should be the norm and what is not, and answering emails outside of your workshift is not .*
I am working in a company where peoples take 0 break, that's their norm. I am smoker, i always take a 5 min smoke break the morning and the afternoon (all very dutyfully metered with my token.
My opinion : my back hurts as hell, i need a mental break, taking a 5 min break won't hurt my productivity. I work (mesured with my token) an average 7h20 per day, when i am paid for 7.
My coworkers opinion : i am a lazy guy always taking breaks. I stopped answering phone calls the WE (si i can try to have a life, social activities and such), so i am not cooperative.
The law opinion : every 4 hours period of time needs a 10 min break and every employee working more than x% of their time in front of a computer (i think it s 75%, me : 95%) must have a 5 min activity every hour that they dont do on a computer. And whatever you try to turn it to, the week end is a no no.
My interpretation of that law ( and there's not much room for interpretation ) : The 5 min break is an activity that would involves me, not being at my desk and being one which is the decision of my employer (there's none). I should take longer break the afternoon to reach 10 min and 0 the morning, obviously, leave earlier.
What i still do, being passionate about my job and i shouldn't do: Check my office mails and our monitoring every 2 hours in order to catch situation that may become harder to fix later, do a bit more hours, for free.
Small background on me, should have a few digit less, just didn't register in the early days. Linux admin since 11y. So, yes, i didn't liked that token thing.
Heard about gmail? If people feel the pressure to produce they'll find a way to do it. They probably need to put a related law to prosecute employees that carry out those communication...
what happens when you need a response the next day and something needs to be hashed out with something of a language barrier?
and the factory or buyer you're trying to communicate with is offset by 12 hours?
did france forget that import and export of global goods requires that someone somewhere is answering emails and phone calls at ungodly hours?
i've had emails going back and forth for a couple of days that could have been resolved in an hour if everybody had been in the same friggin timezone.
Never heard of them
"French" fries are Belgian you twat. No dual citizenship for you, you go to Eurostan, you stay there.
I receive various kinds of this in mail (DBA here) - there's some cases where this "rule" is complete wrong (like mine): by receiving notifications and acting accordingly after work, in general during few minutes, save me several work-hours and headaches during the day...
Croissants
I guess no one is "on call" and nothing breaks at 3am in France. It must be a wonderful place to live.
Need assistance after hours, sorry France is closed. America is open 24/7 if you need anything.
Yeah, France would know about colonizing people.
To get around such restrictions, they simply extend the work day and create a more "flexible" environment. Problem solved.
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
There will always be ways for employers to pressure employees--laws can't anticipate every situation. The best solution is to: make sure you are worth what you're being paid, have a backbone and stand up to your boss, and if all else fails then go work somewhere else.
French is the cut style. Belgian fries are more like the way the (West) Germans make fries, which are big fat potato slices with lots of salt, served in a cone-shaped bag.
If you don't want to work extra hours then don't. I really like my job and I like working outside of standard hours. People are different.
I'm Brazillian: aside the subject of answering job e-mails on off-work hours (which I think it's needed in some situations...), the lack of regulation in work relation in U.S. and the reaction of U.S. citizens against it, amazes me!
I like cleaning out my inbox of issues the night before so I can be productive on my personal work the next morning. Different people work differently and it's weird for government to get involved in these sorts of details.
Due to anticipated imminent terrorist attacks, all employees are urged to stay home until further notice.
No one has sent me and after work email in over two years. everyone just texts now.
This is like banning after work faxes or after work telegraphs.
Who cares?
Considering that France is the country that legislated overtime to start after 35 hours and requires no overtime allowed for about a third of its workforce, email legislation to keep employers from getting after hours benefit from existing employees rather than hiring more certainly seems to fit.
Elastic buffering. My colleagues in other time zones can send emails whenever they are working, and I'll read them when I am working. And if I happen to have an idea in the evening, I can send an email while it's fresh in my mind, and colleagues can read it when they are working again. The problem is requiring immediate attention. If the company needs that, they should be using immediate communication (phone, text, pager), and it should be in the job description, and they should be paying for it.
That girl in the article shown lying in bed reading her phone has a bodacious set of ta-tas!
My previous boss chastised me for missing an early Monday morning meeting. It turned out he had scheduled it the night before, Sunday at 10pm -ish. The meeting was scheduled to start an hour before I normally got to the office. He pointed out that my company provided phone kept me connected to my email inbox and my meeting schedule. He was shocked when I said I turned off alerts for email and that I didn't regularly check it. I told him simply, "you don't pay me enough to be at work 24/7".
I'm actually on call 24/7. I have the volume turned up to max so I know if I get text messages or phone calls, signifying something important. The audio alerts for email is turned off because otherwise I could never f*cking get to sleep because the email is relentless.
I told the replacement boss that I will not be changing this policy under any circumstance. He knows I am absolutely serious. If they ever make an issue of it my response will be to hand over the phone and announce I am no longer on-call.
-- Will program for bandwidth
What I do doesn't naturally fit the 9-5 model. I start work fairly early, around 7am, and will usually finish work around 7-8pm. However I take a couple of hours out in the middle of the day. It works really well for me as I get to see and play with my kids, some times pick the older one up from school, take my youngest to her swimming lessons, or take my motorbike out for a strap up the mountain.
The flip side is I often am on the phone and sending / receiving emails in the evening. And if I didn't work like that my efficiency and performance would tank. I couldn't manage to work 13 hours straight, but if I'm cut off come 5 It would be terrible.
Notice to invaders:
To defeat France, all you have to do is spam the whole nation for a couple of weeks.
Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
The proposed new French law about working conditions is way more encompassing than the summary suggests. However it does say something about email, it says that *employee* have the *right* not to consult email once they go home. In other words is will become illegal for an employer to expect employees to read and respond to email after hours.
All that is required of employers is drafting of a "code of good conduct" regarding the use of email. Compliance with the law will be voluntary and no checks will be made.
That does sound reasonable, if you ask me. Email and other forms of communication are encroaching on our life.
"Because the next day, your boss is screaming at you for not answering his "emergency" email the night before."
If the boss want you to be available at certain hour for emergency then he better give you a pager or a phone and the compensation for it (e.g. being on call in germany where I am is compensated 1/8 of the time , e.g. 80 minutes is counted 10 minutes if you are not called, and normal (day) or overtime (20h-6h & week end& bank holiday) if you are called to do something. But let me guess the boss want a slave which do it bidding without paying a just compensation, and be at the ready at any time ? Having labor law must be really a pain in the ass for him...
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
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visit randi.org
Unions for everyone would be the first step to making this happen. The vast majority of labor laws that favor the employee have started as union initiatives. 40hr work week, overtime pay, 5 day work week, workers comp.
But IT workers won't support unions because they are such special snowflakes always thinking they are so much better than the rest and that the union will drag them down to the average. I got news for you, as a group we are all average because that's what average means.
In fact when I was working and putting myself through college, would have been so nice for my boss not to be able to complain that I didn't respond while he knew I was in class after hours. I would have gotten a 4.0 instead of a 3.88
Actually there is a point of diminishing returns on productivity after you hit 10 hours in a day. That job was a sleep 3 hours a night type of thing. I don't do that kind of crap anymore.. IE if I get paid for 40 hours a week, then when the money stops coming in, I stop working no matter who is bitching about it.
But US labor law requires that unpaid vacation be paid to any employee that leaves the job. The only exception is if you are dismissed for breaking a law that directly affects the company, ie steal company property. Oh, and if you contest it they have to prove it in court. How do I know, when I quit my last job they tried to withhold 300 hours of vacation pay, my lawyer sent them a polite note and I got my money. Little did they know, that lawyer was my brother using a letterhead he invented.
Sick leave does not have to be paid but vacation does. Now you know why so many companies have separate buckets for sick and vacation leave, different accounting rules.
That's just... weird. First thing that comes to mind are work rosters that often get sent after hours or on weekends to tell people (like my wife) their hours for the next week. Will they be banned?
More generally though they're banning the wrong thing. If they banned requiring workers to respond to after hours email then that might be defensible, but this? It just doesn't make sense. If I email my boss on Friday to ask for clarification on x and they respond on Saturday morning I'm happy to (a) get a response and (b) not read it until Monday morning. So long as they act sensibly and understand that I'm not going to act until Monday (which they do pretty much always) why would I want them penalised?
Another example of government trying to control people's lives.
Yep! Just like the poor souls in the USA! All way overworked and enslaven to big money corporations! I am moving to France!
Self-importance and self-indulgence is the root of ALL evil.
Rather than 'outlaw' after-hours emails, why not simply remind workers their employer can't require them to work after-hours, and remind employers that failure to review emails off the clock is not a justifiable reason for termination/discipline. The issue is cultural, a legislative response is over-kill.
But then I never got paid for being on call as a SQA tester. :(
Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
This sounds more like nanny legislation by France. What next, will they enforce an official bed time and ban any business from being open after say 10 PM and all television and radio stations will be required to stop broadcasting so that people will not watch TV or listen to the radio after 10 PM. Will the web sites be required to refuse service to french citizens after 10 PM their local time?
This seems to be more of a personal problem if someone isn't able to separate work and personal time. My employer allows me to take a laptop home however, any co-worker would know that their emails sent to me after work hours won't be answered until the next time I am scheduled to work. I may check my email periodically but any emails I receive off-hours are not answered until I come to work. It isn't like I'm paid after hours to respond to emails so it is only voluntarily if I respond to your emails after hours and I do consider this to be my own personal time and since I'm not being paid, I'll wait until work to do work related tasks.
How will this ban work for employers who have multiple shifts. For example in my department we work during the day shift but other departments work during the night time and grave yard shifts who may contact us. If they encounter problems with our software during their shift they will send emails to their superiors who work during day shift or directly send us an email. They realize that we won't answer their email but leave an email for us to answer once we come into work the next morning. It would be impracticable for them to wait until our shift starts which happens to be after their shift ends in order to send us an email. We will often respond to their emails during our daytime shift so that they will have a response from us first thing when they come to work since our office is closed during their shift. How would this ban work for employees of the same company who work different shifts?
There is no such thing like a "ban opf afterwork emails", just the right for an employee not to consult or answer his emails once he has finished his day. That's very different and it is called "droit à la déconnexion" (right to disconnect).