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France's After Work Email Ban Is 1 Step Closer To Reality (huffingtonpost.ca)
Jesse Ferreras, writing for Huffington Post: France is that much closer to becoming the first country to ban after-work emails. The country's lower parliamentary house passed a bill this week that would ban companies with 50 or more employees from sending emails outside regular work hours, BBC News reported. It now goes to the Senate, where members will study it before sending it back to the National Assembly to enshrine it in French law. The bill would make businesses come up with hours during which employees cannot check or send emails. And it comes as workers are finding it increasingly difficult to detach themselves from work, Socialist MP Benoit Hamon told BBC News.Hamon adds: "Employees physically leave the office, but they do not leave their work. They remain attached by a kind of electronic leash -- like a dog. The texts, the messages, the emails -- they colonize the life of the individual to the point where he or she eventually breaks down."
For some places with 24 hour coverage this could workout great, but for others, the employer might simply institute shifts. Right now where I'm working, we're basically a daytime shop, though we respond to emergencies at any time (and they're really not infrequent). I really wouldn't want to start having to work nights, especially the graveyard shift, and just because something *might* go down.
Look back up at my post, now look back down, you're on the Internet. Now look back up. I'm a signature.
Yeaaaaaah, how ya doin' Peter?
SJW's don't eliminate discrimination. They just expropriate it for themselves.
Even if other countries adopt this policy, it won't work because of time zone differences. China is six hours ahead of France, the USA is 6 to 9 hours behind France. Conducting international business becomes impossible.
Well if that "optional" (really mandatory) office parties of any kind has on the clock with OT pay then they will go away.
Also the do realy work but we call it a party will be dead. That joe mayo is a jack ass.
I would assume that "regular work hours" could vary for each employee.
Because the next day, your boss is screaming at you for not answering his "emergency" email the night before.
SJW's don't eliminate discrimination. They just expropriate it for themselves.
I don't think it is.
The benefit of people dealing with email after work is probably not something that has a huge impact on the company's bottom line. Very few things can't wait until the morning.
Mostly this is more a problem of pushy managers rather than business need.
[Workers] remain attached by a kind of electronic leash
That sounds like more of a personal problem to me. I get to be smug here because I only check my work mail when I'm not working on sick days (and even then usually just once in the morning and once in the afternoon--I'm sick after all so I need to get better). And that's just because I'm such a nice person. Haven't had official on call duties in the present job, but always remember to get a company phone in addition to your personal one if you need to be on call. If I get a text or desperate on my personal phone about some sky-is-falling omg-can't-wait-for-tomorrow change request I really don't feel bad about ignoring it. My phone was charging, and I was in the other room. Too bad.
Now, on the other hand, what we have here is a tragedy of the commons.
I can understand where this might be within the bailiwick of perhaps a union. However, I can't say I'm entirely unopposed to a government that has labor laws adding to its labor laws that employees can't be contacted outside of their working hours. It's the only way to defeat the tragedy of the commons.
Some employers forbid their employees from turning off their work phones at any time. Furthermore, even if their isn't such a policy in place, any employee who doesn't respond after hours may be seen as "not a team player". Putting pressure on the employers not to allow employee e-mailing outside the working day may be the only way to tackle the problem.
As an American, no, we wouldn't want or need a law like this. It would be unambiguously an anti-freedom nosey-government sort of thing. Blech.
Except when my wife is checking her emails. Then suddenly I wish the government were slapping everyone's wrists, controlling their behavior against their will, and suppressing their freedom as much as possible. STOP DOING THAT, WIFE!! Come back to the here-and-now with me, dammit. Ok, I get it: the TV show we're watching, bores you. We can watch something else! Now put down that tablet.
You can just not check your e-mail all the time after hours... Even turn off the mail app on your phone. (Some phones you can schedule this!) But, no... We must protect people too stupid to stop working when they are home...
In a healthy workplace you can, but sometimes you have workaholic bosses or colleagues who expect the same from you. Many people want to be good team players, but don't know how to push back when it starts depressing them.
Companies will probably find ways around this, such as paying people less and paying them the difference for being on-call?
Jumpstart the tartan drive.
Ummm, I'm gonna need you to go ahead come in tomorrow. So if you could be here around 9 that would be great, mmmk... oh oh! and I almost forgot ahh, I'm also gonna need you to go ahead and come in on Sunday too, kay. We ahh lost some people this week and ah, we sorta need to play catch up.
What does that mean? That I as an employee am not allowed to send email to another employee outside of that employee's defined work hours? Or that the company will queue mail until that employee comes to the office? Or that employees are not required to check their email. If the latter that will be about as good as saying "don't come to the office when you are sick". But then guilt employees for staying home causing them to come to the office sick anyway.
-- Thou hast strayed far from the path of the Avatar.
A screaming boss is my cue to ignore him so I can concentrate on writing my 4 weeks notice.
You do not scream at me. For no reason. Ever.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
"The bill would make businesses come up with hours during which employees cannot check or send email"
I looked the article hoping to get more detail on this, but it's still sorta vague. I'm assuming this is hours based on an individual's work schedule? If it was a number of hours set in stone across the board, seems like a company with clients spread across the globe would be hurt pretty bad. Sure you could hire more people and implement shift-work....I know people that like to work odd hours, but once that person decides to get a family, it becomes more difficult because their spouse and kids are on a different schedule. Seems more stressful than having to deal with after-work e-mails.
If you post as Anonymous Coward, don't expect a reply.
Even if other countries adopt this policy, it won't work because of time zone differences. China is six hours ahead of France, the USA is 6 to 9 hours behind France. Conducting international business becomes impossible.
Not impossible - delayed. The e-mails will wait until someone can read them. Many businesses already have a policy that electronic communication will be answered within 1 business day.
I don't open my work laptop after I go home.
It's very liberating.
I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
yeah, with the great job market every one has, I'm sure that will work out well for you.
I'm god, but it's a bit of a drag really...
Indeed. Enforcement of work hour/overtime abuse is very lax. Businesses get away with it because they can.
This needs to change. We also need to call it it what it is.
Theft of service.
About 20 years ago, when my then manager asked "would you use a pager?" I smiled and replied "only if it comes with a raise."
Of course, he wasn't a douche bag, he laughed, and the subject never came up again.
Still, I get work email on my phone.... sometimes I check it, sometimes I don't; I actually like the job I do and am interested in the projects I'm working on, so while I may not do any work, I don't mind checking email to see the status of something and know what to expect when I do get back to work the next morning. At the same time, I may go all weekend without checking - and I've told coworkers not to expect me to check email over the weekend. So it's all on me, and I wouldn't want the government telling me I'm not allowed to check when there's something I'm actually interested in hearing about.
Stupid sexy Flanders.
>> your boss is screaming at you for not answering his "emergency" email the night before
Quit being a *uss. I've always had a explicit policy with my managers and coworkers - even put it on my email footers sometimes - that YOU will CALL/TEXT ME if it's an emergency. Otherwise, your "emergency" email goes into the inbox and stays there until I have time to read that pile.
Mostly this is more a problem of pushy managers rather than business need.
And with employees that are willing to go the extra mile or seven because the alternative can be being replaced by someone who will. Before, when you left work, there was no technological leash. Nor expectations of 80+ work weeks.
Karoshi is spreading from Japan to other countries, and I think it is commendable that France tries to stem it.
People die because of overwork, and one death is one too many.
About the same frequency as tough talkers who only post AC...
Linux, you magnificent bastard, I read the fucking manual!
It could be better to allow employees not to read a mail, outside work hours. Anyway the bill comes from politics, people who, for most of them in France, never worked in a company and have no clue how the enterprise world runs ; there are certainly abuses. but the bill seems to be too peremptory.
Slashdot, fix the reply notifications... You won't get away with it...
It's already pretty much impossible for US companies to contract to French companies or employ French workers. This means there will be even less US companies working with French ones.
Just because I can hook a shark from a boat, I do no offer to wrestle it in the water.
How would this be enforced, exactly? Also, does it apply to the government, too? Somehow I can't imagine all government email communications ceasing at the end of the work day... what about emergencies? Also, what about phone calls?
All of the "IT Infrastructure" group at one employer were required to carry a beeper (even contractors). We were not paid to answer the pages so I took mine off and left it by my front door. I picked it up on the way out of the door. The beeper stayed on all the time. Others, with company phones, did the same thing with the phones.
Even if other countries adopt this policy, it won't work because of time zone differences. China is six hours ahead of France, the USA is 6 to 9 hours behind France. Conducting international business becomes impossible.
No, it just requires a more specific solution. Just a few that occur to me immediately:
(1) Unless the business is especially urgent, just have a policy that emails will be replied to within 24 hours. That's pretty reasonable for most circumstances, except for emergencies or if you're actually providing a 24-hour service of some sort.
(2) If you are providing a 24-hour service of some sort, you just hire different employees with different effective business hours to cover all hours of the day. Or if your company opens a new division dealing with a business 6 hours different, change the effective business hours of a few employees to handle those transactions.
(3) If you need someone to deal with emergencies, presumably you could pay them "overtime" or something like that for their time... which is what businesses really should be doing when they require people to do stuff outside of business hours.
Basically -- you want people to be available to deal with stuff at other hours? PAY them to do so. Nothing hard about this.
Now if they would only block a drunk boss from calling you on a Saturday night and yelling and screaming at you for no real reason at all, that would be a good next step.
Although some may bristle and think this will cause a slow down of business, I disagree. It may make for a more efficient business with well-rested, lower stress employees.
I have seen so many e-mails sent overnight and in the wee hours of the morning from people that want to be seen as working extra time. It is kind of like the days of face time with the boss in the UK. You always leave after the boss leaves, so that it looks like you are a worker.
I'm on a call with him right now,
I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
Simply make it a financial cost to the company for sending any e-mail to employees after work hours.
1 e-mail is instantly considered 4 hours of overtime pay. 2 is equal to 8, and so on.
If the employer doesn't want to pay the overtime, then they don't send e-mails. Period.
And the ISP's and servers have records of the e-mails being sent, so they can't deny it either.
...Furthermore, even if their isn't such a policy in place, any employee who doesn't respond after hours may be seen as "not a team player". ...
You're being too kind.
.
If it is the type of company that routinely emails its employees after hours, then that company will, not may, call you out as not being a team player. Companies nowadays seem to think their employees are owned by the company.
Oh no! A terror attack! We all need to shit our pants and end civil liberties and stop worrying about real problems immediately!!
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
That wasn't email, that was over the cubicle wall.
France becomes the first nation to declare it's only going to do business in one timezone.
It is not after work if you are working.
After work is when you are not doing business, and not getting paid.
The attacks that are the direct result of America and the rest of the EU funding global terrorism? Those attacks?
Not me. L1B -> Green card.
The tards who bang on about H1Bs don't even understand the details of the visa process because they've never been through it.
I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
If some low skill minimum wage H1B can do your job well you are already in trouble.
The attacks that are the direct result of America and the rest of the EU funding global terrorism? Those attacks?
Last time I checked France is part of the EU....so the rest of the EU does it but France is somehow not responsible?
France has been one of the major players in the middle east for decades....I shouldn't have to mention their grabbing of Syria and Lebanon from the Ottoman Empire, their arms sales to Iraq and Libya, the French-Algerian war, or the Suez Crisis.
If you post as Anonymous Coward, don't expect a reply.
I don't take my laptop home.
Even if other countries adopt this policy, it won't work because of time zone differences. China is six hours ahead of France, the USA is 6 to 9 hours behind France. Conducting international business becomes impossible.
Gee, if only someone would invent the electric lightbulb so our work hours wouldn't be locked to the movement of the sun.
"I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)
That wasn't email, that was over the cubicle wall.
and apparently over your head.
Whenever a player quits EVE to go play WoW, the Average IQ of both games increase.
Maybe we should organize a strike ?
In France?!?! No way that would happen... ;-)
If you post as Anonymous Coward, don't expect a reply.
Right, like you're replaceable....
Corporate accounts payable, Nina speaking. Just a moment!
The reason the poster is scared is that the US work ethic is propped up by a thin veil of smoke and mirrors. Most American's are fucking retards, which is why they work too much for too little pay and despite it being in their best interest, refuse to self-organise into unions to protect themselves.
There is some kind of nationalistic net cast over all of this that implies a failure to "work hard" is a failure to be American. Of **course** this gets exploited by the employer, and the result is the current state of play in the USA.
Good luck friends, buy by my reckoning you be all fucked!
There is no H1B in France.
Good for them, but unless every country follows suit, France is fucked.
ROTFL.
Sometimes I think the universal sport of france-bashing is indicative of a "penis-deficit". We can't have as good a life as the french hence we bash them. We should strive to be more like the french in their outlook on life. Fuck 24/24 workday and fuck the companies that treat their emplyees as slaves.
So if Einstein wants to immigrate to the US, and we don't have full employment, you're going to kick his ass to the curb?
Personally, I think the free flow of labor is a good thing. I wouldn't mind going to work in e.g. Germany, Costa Rica, or Japan. Moving to another country is not for the faint of heart even if you don't have visa issues. I could develop this theme more, but I think that even you can come up with as many circumstances where immigration is good.
Those who advocate genocide deserve every protection afforded by law, and none afforded by common human decency.
I kind of like the idea that I not be required to check my email away from work, but I personally like to get a view of my inbox about an hour before work in the morning. I feel more comfortable knowing sort of what I am going to face when I get to my desk. I also like to get there a few minutes early to settle in 'gracefully' rather than have my admin hanging over my shoulder prodding me that so and so is waiting in the conference room and boss #2 wants an 'immediate' update on some project the instant I get in the office.
errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
What do you expect from people whose word for "work" is "travail"?
These days it seems they're willing to put anyone in any position as long as they will work for bottom dollar.... and it's not their position.
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
Previous posters are corrects, the goal is to stop abuse and a situation which is becoming too common and too abusive.
If there's no immediate urgency, just wait for the day after, else put shifts or an on call team.
That costs money , but the company is actually working for an extended time, and most likely making more money, so better officialise it.
If you re worrying about the well being of you re company, you ll just answer late at night thinking it might important. Then it will become a habit and you ll do it everyday. And peoples knowing that you'll answer will contact you more often. I had on duty peoples phoning me when i wasn't on call the week end. At one point i had phone calls every week end, not making any money from it, because i was not "officially" on duty.
Peoples didn't take this habit to call me, from one day to another, it took a few years. And that s what the other poster is referring to. Once it becomes the norm, peoples who don't answer the week end, get marked as not interested in their work, but they aren't paid either to do this either. And yes at one point it becomes the norm for the whole job branch to be reachable 24/24.
Then why takes expensive contracts with super fast SLA and everything if peoples answer all the time? The whole market get screwed. At one point they try to officialise what should be the norm and what is not, and answering emails outside of your workshift is not .*
I am working in a company where peoples take 0 break, that's their norm. I am smoker, i always take a 5 min smoke break the morning and the afternoon (all very dutyfully metered with my token.
My opinion : my back hurts as hell, i need a mental break, taking a 5 min break won't hurt my productivity. I work (mesured with my token) an average 7h20 per day, when i am paid for 7.
My coworkers opinion : i am a lazy guy always taking breaks. I stopped answering phone calls the WE (si i can try to have a life, social activities and such), so i am not cooperative.
The law opinion : every 4 hours period of time needs a 10 min break and every employee working more than x% of their time in front of a computer (i think it s 75%, me : 95%) must have a 5 min activity every hour that they dont do on a computer. And whatever you try to turn it to, the week end is a no no.
My interpretation of that law ( and there's not much room for interpretation ) : The 5 min break is an activity that would involves me, not being at my desk and being one which is the decision of my employer (there's none). I should take longer break the afternoon to reach 10 min and 0 the morning, obviously, leave earlier.
What i still do, being passionate about my job and i shouldn't do: Check my office mails and our monitoring every 2 hours in order to catch situation that may become harder to fix later, do a bit more hours, for free.
Small background on me, should have a few digit less, just didn't register in the early days. Linux admin since 11y. So, yes, i didn't liked that token thing.
Buy by my reckoning you be all fucked too!
Heard about gmail? If people feel the pressure to produce they'll find a way to do it. They probably need to put a related law to prosecute employees that carry out those communication...
Yeah, that's exactly what email is for. Plus, it's not like it would be too hard to employ some people to work second shift to maintain contact with overseas clients.
Works out fantastic, actually. I'm smart, hard working, have a lot of experience and a strong professional network. If my boss screamed at me I'd walk out on the spot. But I'm a valuable employee so they'd never do that.
Says the guy who doesn't know the difference between plural and possessive.
Yeah, that's the whole point of the law.
How exactly do you stop working when your boss is sending you an email home and demands you immediately respond?
I don't get what is wrong with you americans. What is wrong in protecting people? Point there is already law about working hours. And *rest* is a demand by such laws. Employer simply want unpayed extra hours from people at home, so again we have a new law.
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
Much of the time maybe even most of the time that will work. If you have ever worked on a big project with an overseas team though you will know some phases need faster turn around than that.
Not everything can be pre-planned some things you have to deal with as they come. At somepoint even if it is after hours most people for their own sanity will want to follow so e-mail so that when a guy sends "Tried that got...." You can reply quickly with "Okay..Well..see if this will work...." and get the issue resolved. Otherwise. Its he sends that at 11a his time, 6 hours later you send a reply after he has gone home. You wait all day for him to get in at 4p your time and you have to leave in an hour, but he has a morning meeting and ....
Suddenly what you used to be able to clear off your plate and take care of in a day or two now takes weeks.
Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
"French" fries are Belgian you twat. No dual citizenship for you, you go to Eurostan, you stay there.
I receive various kinds of this in mail (DBA here) - there's some cases where this "rule" is complete wrong (like mine): by receiving notifications and acting accordingly after work, in general during few minutes, save me several work-hours and headaches during the day...
Croissants
We need to talk about your TPS reports.
Considering that France spans several time zones that would be difficult.
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
Are doctors exempt? Or maybe the guy who designed a multimillion dollar satellite that just freaked out?
as many french emigrating as us citizens getting the hell out of the US
US population is five times greater than france. http://www.wolframalpha.com/in... so french emigration per capita rates are much higher.
(laughs)
you are young and arrogant.
at least one of those will be fixed over time.
--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
you are right. americans are broken. like animals that start spirited, but when controlled by humans long enough, they break and become their slaves.
we have become virtual slaves to our corp masters.
we have allowed them to reduce our benefits, reduce our pay, increase work hours, force us to train replacements that are offshored or onshored, cut insurance, cut benefits. oh, and now we all have to endure this 'open office' bullshit that pretty much annoys everyone, whether they are honest and admit it or not.
yeah, americans have given up on freedom. and I say this as someone born and raised here, over 50 years. its a damned shame that we have been so tamed by our masters.
even worse, some don't even see that they have a master/slave relationship. some even seem to like it and think that their bosses really do care about them and that they are precious valueable little snowflakes.
we are lost. sometimes, I really wonder what our future is.
--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
I don't take my laptop home.
I would prefer a desktop. More storage, more CPU, more memory and I can leave it and come back to it exactly as it was the next day.
Alas they only offer laptops. Big corporations lack flexibility. But I'll live with my first world problems.
I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
OP here. In my defense I was really really pissed!
Sure, shoot the messenger and the fidelity of the message all you want.
Or try to read between the lines and discern what you will.
Again, good luck my friends!
Err... the whole point of email is that it is asynchronous communication medium. I know because I'm old enough to remember what things were like before email. Stuff was either handled immediately in real time by phone call, or by letter (or telex, and later fax). So for the most part you had two time response frames: right away, and a week or so.
One thing I've noticed about technology over the years is that it isn't so much a productivity amplifier as a general human proclivity amplifier. So technology amplifies laziness as much as anything else, and the lazier you are, the harder you work in the long term. Back when you had to get your work done in 35 hours, you had to be focused; you had to be tactical; you had to plan things out to make good use of your time.
Back when I was an engineering manager I used to have strict comp time policy. If you pulled an all-nighter, fine, but I want you to take a short day the next day or take it off entirely. It's not because I'm a nice guy; it's because when you work for me I expect you to work harder than you can keep up for fifty or sixty hours a week. I expect you to use your time intelligently and selectively.
As a manager I view needing to have routine unrestricted access to your employees' time as laziness. Undisciplined management leads to unstructured work time. You also have to be assertive with customers. I also never allowed customers to take out their insecurities on my staff. If we said something will be done by X, it'll get done by X; and no you cannot call my engineers directly to see how things are coming. They will report progress to you at the intervals we agree upon. The "give the customers 7x24 access" is a the lazy manager's response to bad customer service. You have to train your customers to expect success from you.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
as much stuff break, but you wait in the morning to fix it...
In addressing terrorism there's a big gap between doing nothing and ending civil liberties.
Yeah, France would know about colonizing people.
To get around such restrictions, they simply extend the work day and create a more "flexible" environment. Problem solved.
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
Yep, those attacks. Making past mistakes doesn't mean corrective action shouldn't be taken, esp when civilian lives are at stake.
There will always be ways for employers to pressure employees--laws can't anticipate every situation. The best solution is to: make sure you are worth what you're being paid, have a backbone and stand up to your boss, and if all else fails then go work somewhere else.
French is the cut style. Belgian fries are more like the way the (West) Germans make fries, which are big fat potato slices with lots of salt, served in a cone-shaped bag.
If you don't want to work extra hours then don't. I really like my job and I like working outside of standard hours. People are different.
I'm Brazillian: aside the subject of answering job e-mails on off-work hours (which I think it's needed in some situations...), the lack of regulation in work relation in U.S. and the reaction of U.S. citizens against it, amazes me!
I like cleaning out my inbox of issues the night before so I can be productive on my personal work the next morning. Different people work differently and it's weird for government to get involved in these sorts of details.
Due to anticipated imminent terrorist attacks, all employees are urged to stay home until further notice.
I've actually never had a problem getting a job. What matters is relevant degrees, relevant certifications, and, most of all, a reputation that you're damn good at what you're doing, and there is NEVER a shortage of offers.
Of course if you are generally just goofing off on the job and your employer is better off without you, well, you have to endure the yelling.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Basically -- you want people to be available to deal with stuff at other hours? PAY them to do so. Nothing hard about this.
While this is a nice plan, it would be illegal in France. There's regulations about the number of hours one can work.
Umm, so you don't actually know anything about French labor law, do you?
There's this myth that no one in France can work more than 35-hour weeks, but that's simply not true. They just set that as the threshold where overtime pay has to kick in, and (unlike, say, the U.S.) the overtime laws generally apply to white-collar salaried workers as well as blue-collar wage workers.
So, it's definitely possible in France to pay people to work overtime beyond 35 hours/week. There are a few different thresholds about overtime hours and how much extra you need to be paid, as well as maximum limits on hours/day or how many weeks you can have overtime beyond a certain threshold, etc. And once you get to a certain amount of overtime, you have to compensate employees with extra "rest days."
Anyhow, the system is complex, but there's nothing preventing a company from paying overtime for employees to handle most reasonable issues outside normal business hours.
AND -- guess what? If you can't staff your business for enough hours with the employees you have under the law, that's a clue maybe it's time you have to pay to hire ANOTHER employee! (Weird how that works....)
Considering that France is the country that legislated overtime to start after 35 hours and requires no overtime allowed for about a third of its workforce, email legislation to keep employers from getting after hours benefit from existing employees rather than hiring more certainly seems to fit.
I'm arrogant too. And now I can actually afford being it, because I'm GOOD at what I'm doing.
That's what I am and that's what I expect. I expect people to be able to do the job they are supposed to do. If they're unable to do it, they should quit. Shit or get off the pot.
And my experience is that screaming bosses rarely do theirs. The volume of their voice is usually directly proportional to their inability to do their job well.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
French here, see my previous post
There are companies in France, basically doing on call for free, where do you go, France or US?
Hence why they are trying to pass a low.
If somone would call me right now (friday 21h49), chances are that i would answer, i am trying to change that, but that s the way we do it.
If somone call me, then that must be a big issue, took only 30 min, let s not do the paperwork for it. Then peoples expect to do it for free, again see my previous post.
I dare say that whoever is yelling at me is very likely not able to demand that. At the very least I have a hunch that I will not end up as the one being fired on the spot.
At a certain level in the hierarchy of corporations, you don't simply get fired.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
They own APC (one of the most common makers of UPS's). Beyond that I haven't heard of them.
I'm starting to think GNU is the problem with "GNU/Linux" these days.
I've actually never had a problem getting a job. What matters is relevant degrees, relevant certifications, and, most of all, a reputation that you're damn good at what you're doing, and there is NEVER a shortage of offers.
That's all great if you're in a profession with high demand. It's also fine if you're relatively young and there are a lot of easy places "low on the ladder" to jump to if you're not satisfied.
If your profession happens to go through harder times, or too many people start getting degrees in your field, labor becomes cheaper and better jobs become harder to find. And once you get beyond a certain age in most professions, you're too old to just start "entry level" any more -- so you have to wait to find a job that's your level, because you're "overqualified" for other things... and depending on your profession and how common it is for people to switch jobs when they're 45 or 50 or whatever, that can be hard.
Of course if you are generally just goofing off on the job and your employer is better off without you, well, you have to endure the yelling.
I've seen jobs in some fields that have had more than 100 applicants, the majority of which were all perfectly qualified. Yes, this was in a profession where too many people are getting degrees, and there's a backlog of qualified underemployed people from the financial crash a few years back.
I agree with you that the TOP people in most fields will always be able to find a job. But if you're not talented enough (or lucky enough to land good jobs early on to put on your resume and demonstrate experience) to be in the top 5% or whatever, but you're still a hard worker in the top 1/3 of your field, it can get really hard when jobs are less plentiful to just quit and find something new.
Then schedule shift work.
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Having the clients interact directly with employees causes a lot of communications issues too, where various team members may have information that others (including the manager) do not, which creates conflict and issues with the project (and setbacks as a result). (Or, as I was told at a previous job, don't try to do the project manager's job for them. They (and other client liasons) exist for a reason
I'm starting to think GNU is the problem with "GNU/Linux" these days.
Elastic buffering. My colleagues in other time zones can send emails whenever they are working, and I'll read them when I am working. And if I happen to have an idea in the evening, I can send an email while it's fresh in my mind, and colleagues can read it when they are working again. The problem is requiring immediate attention. If the company needs that, they should be using immediate communication (phone, text, pager), and it should be in the job description, and they should be paying for it.
Corporate accounts payable, Nina speaking. Just a moment!
Yeah the time change thing would be a big hurdle
That is as simplistic as saying if a country is running a budget deficit then stop imports. But real life is never that simple. No visas would mean India would impose trade sanctions on US exports and then more companies in US would go bankrupt and higher unemployment in the US. Also all the Indians who would not get visas will not suddenly start doing other jobs. They would still write software just living in India. As life is cheaper in India they could do it at lower salaries. So then you have offshoring and/or competitor companies.
People simply have to recognize that for knowledge jobs they are competing in a global economy. If you want a geographically protected job become a plumber, electrician, surgeon (though people have started flying to India for cheaper surgeries)
But at the end of the day people need to ask themselves the question- "Why would simply being born in the US guarantee a better standard of living than most of the world?" The answer of course is that there is no guarantee. For a period of 40 years after ww2 USA saw unprecedented mass prosperity while the rest of the world played catchup from the devastation of WW2. Now those days are over and Americans need to get used to a lower standard of living while the rest of the world goes up till standards of living more or less equalize.
Corporate accounts payable, Nina speaking! Just a moment!
Are doctors exempt?
No, they aren't. And people die because of it, along with their mandatory vacation time..
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If you think I voted for Trump because of this post, you're wrong. I voted for Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party. Again.
So, what your saying is, French companies won't be able to outsource most of their jobs to Elbonia? I fail to see a downside here.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
Having worked with teams in other continents regularly for the last 10 years, I feel a need to correct this.
Time zone differences = delayed = impossible to conduct international business.
I work with most of my coworkers two timezones east of me, but some in India basically 12 hours ahead. I can go back and forth with my same-continent coworkers a hundred times in a day (think: instant messaging, or, heck, just get on the phone with them). But to get a hundred back-and-forth with the team in India has just taken something that could be done in a day and stretched it out over five months (5 months x ~20 round trips per month). Also known as 5-20 iterations (depending on iteration length). That's close enough to qualify for the adjective "impossible."
If people die because someone expects e-mail to be answered right away, it's not the doctor who's to blame.
Therefore, by the (faulty) logic you're using, you're just a cow with a keyboard - osu-neko (2604)
My previous boss chastised me for missing an early Monday morning meeting. It turned out he had scheduled it the night before, Sunday at 10pm -ish. The meeting was scheduled to start an hour before I normally got to the office. He pointed out that my company provided phone kept me connected to my email inbox and my meeting schedule. He was shocked when I said I turned off alerts for email and that I didn't regularly check it. I told him simply, "you don't pay me enough to be at work 24/7".
I'm actually on call 24/7. I have the volume turned up to max so I know if I get text messages or phone calls, signifying something important. The audio alerts for email is turned off because otherwise I could never f*cking get to sleep because the email is relentless.
I told the replacement boss that I will not be changing this policy under any circumstance. He knows I am absolutely serious. If they ever make an issue of it my response will be to hand over the phone and announce I am no longer on-call.
-- Will program for bandwidth
Thomson-CSF, now known as the Thales Group. At one point it owned the RCA brand name.
Dassault Group.
Sanofi
France Telecom.
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If you want a job, you also have to be able sell the notion that you'll be an excellent choice for the company. If you can't do that, degrees and certifications mean nothing. Reputation is useless unless you've made a major name for yourself in your industry, otherwise nobody at your hoped-for employer will have even heard of you.
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What I do doesn't naturally fit the 9-5 model. I start work fairly early, around 7am, and will usually finish work around 7-8pm. However I take a couple of hours out in the middle of the day. It works really well for me as I get to see and play with my kids, some times pick the older one up from school, take my youngest to her swimming lessons, or take my motorbike out for a strap up the mountain.
The flip side is I often am on the phone and sending / receiving emails in the evening. And if I didn't work like that my efficiency and performance would tank. I couldn't manage to work 13 hours straight, but if I'm cut off come 5 It would be terrible.
Sorry I kicked you in the jaw, Mr. Screamer. You must have incited temporary insanity.
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Notice to invaders:
To defeat France, all you have to do is spam the whole nation for a couple of weeks.
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The proposed new French law about working conditions is way more encompassing than the summary suggests. However it does say something about email, it says that *employee* have the *right* not to consult email once they go home. In other words is will become illegal for an employer to expect employees to read and respond to email after hours.
All that is required of employers is drafting of a "code of good conduct" regarding the use of email. Compliance with the law will be voluntary and no checks will be made.
That does sound reasonable, if you ask me. Email and other forms of communication are encroaching on our life.
Basically -- you want people to be available to deal with stuff at other hours? PAY them to do so. Nothing hard about this.
Unless it's made illegal to do so. That's my beef, or would be if I lived in France, that my employer and I can't come to an arrangement we're both happy with.
Back to the original post, "they eventually break down". Really? Any evidence for that, Benoit? I've worked with hundreds of people who check email after hours and I don't recall hearing of one single breakdown. How about you document it's a problem before legislating against it?
This is actually quite reasonable but due to a tragedy of the commons type situation as soon as a country breaks ranks then it gives them quite an advantage. If only we could get the whole world to sign on then it would be much better. I'm not sure how that could be made to happen though.
"Because the next day, your boss is screaming at you for not answering his "emergency" email the night before."
If the boss want you to be available at certain hour for emergency then he better give you a pager or a phone and the compensation for it (e.g. being on call in germany where I am is compensated 1/8 of the time , e.g. 80 minutes is counted 10 minutes if you are not called, and normal (day) or overtime (20h-6h & week end& bank holiday) if you are called to do something. But let me guess the boss want a slave which do it bidding without paying a just compensation, and be at the ready at any time ? Having labor law must be really a pain in the ass for him...
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Yes when talking about France the country I totally included all their overseas territories, you know those little islands that are so important to international trade.
Nothing says the work day has to be eight to five. If you are working with an overseas team your work day shifts to noon to nine or whatever is appropriate. Basically the rule will be if you are not on the clock you cannot be expected to be checking your e-mail, sounds reasonable to me. My boss already knows I won't be checking my e-mail from 6PM to 6AM. If he needs something urgent then call.
Unions for everyone would be the first step to making this happen. The vast majority of labor laws that favor the employee have started as union initiatives. 40hr work week, overtime pay, 5 day work week, workers comp.
But IT workers won't support unions because they are such special snowflakes always thinking they are so much better than the rest and that the union will drag them down to the average. I got news for you, as a group we are all average because that's what average means.
But US labor law requires that unpaid vacation be paid to any employee that leaves the job. The only exception is if you are dismissed for breaking a law that directly affects the company, ie steal company property. Oh, and if you contest it they have to prove it in court. How do I know, when I quit my last job they tried to withhold 300 hours of vacation pay, my lawyer sent them a polite note and I got my money. Little did they know, that lawyer was my brother using a letterhead he invented.
Sick leave does not have to be paid but vacation does. Now you know why so many companies have separate buckets for sick and vacation leave, different accounting rules.
It's only for company's with more than 50 employees - pretty sure they can afford to hire 1 or more nightshift workers to contact people in other timezones. Also i'm willing to bet the bill will say if overtime is paid employees could still work outside hours.
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They make some quite good fighter and other jets, nuclear submarines too.
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Pro-top for French legislators: When you have 11% unemployment, and 0% GDP growth, perhaps you shouldn't be looking for ways to be even more hostile to employers.
Or perhaps you should, because they're obviously not doing things right.
It's the businesses that have to be able to adapt to the environment they're in - failure to do so isn't a failure of the environment. Sahara doesn't support penguins, and Antarctica doesn't support camels. Animals that migrate either place must adapt or die.
Businesses unwilling or unable to adapt to different countries are better off packing up and leaving, making room for those that are able to adapt to the local climate.
No you don't. People like me are on call to get woken up in the middle of the night to fix it.
Democracy is a sheep and two wolves deciding what to have for lunch. Freedom is a well armed sheep contesting the issue
little islands that are so important to international trade.
No no, not trade!
Vacation, vacation, vacation!
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
I wouldn't want to work with anyone who has that sense of self importance and entitlement.
If I fuck up, I want to be screamed at; screaming is just another form of communication.
By that definition, so is assault... But some "forms of communication" are simply not acceptable in the work place.
The defense was "verbal assault" and "hostile work environment." That means fired without cause and nice long unemployment benefits.
If this was in the US, and you were not being compensated for off hours work, that was wrongful termination, and a lawsuit or at worst long unemployment benefits.
How exactly do you stop working when your boss is sending you an email home and demands you immediately respond?
This is the difference between driving a car, and driving a car over people. It is the driving over people that is the problem, not the car. A simply law protecting employees that do not respond to e-mail after hours would be enough.
I don't get what is wrong with you americans. What is wrong in protecting people? Point there is already law about working hours. And *rest* is a demand by such laws. Employer simply want unpayed extra hours from people at home, so again we have a new law.
Well, the US does have laws about employers pressuring there staff into doing unpaid overtime, so we have that going for us... :)
Another example of government trying to control people's lives.
Here in the US, doctors only kill people by accidentally falling asleep on the surgery table. It's so much better!
Yep! Just like the poor souls in the USA! All way overworked and enslaven to big money corporations! I am moving to France!
Self-importance and self-indulgence is the root of ALL evil.
A simply law protecting employees that do not respond to e-mail after hours would be enough.
In case you have not noticed: this is exactly about what the law is about. However it is worded and aimed at the strong point in the contractors and not at thr weak.
The point is mot the responding: the point is the harrasment and phsychological pressure that is created when you get bombed with mails, are tempted to read them, have to think what to do, instead of simply: being out of office at your off time.
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
The French own APC? That explains everything.
Never a shortage of offers?
Sure, offers are made just to turn you down justifying H1B employees. It is like the difference between being charged with a crime and being convicted.
I have not been placed in this situation yet but my planned response is to leave the phone on near a part 15 unintentional radiator.
Rather than 'outlaw' after-hours emails, why not simply remind workers their employer can't require them to work after-hours, and remind employers that failure to review emails off the clock is not a justifiable reason for termination/discipline. The issue is cultural, a legislative response is over-kill.
Says the fellow that has never had to 'make a payroll, never created a single job'. No, what you meant to say was select employees could flex their work hours to meet company needs.
I expect you to work harder than you can keep up for fifty or sixty hours a week. I expect you to use your time intelligently and selectively.
I so agree with this! If you can't do your job without working 50 hours, you either aren't working hard enough during your 35-40 or the company needs another employee. Unless you're financially bought into the company it's not your problem, it's the company's. Doing extra hours just makes a company feel entitled to them, and makes them feel they can work everyone harder rather than have appropriate staffing levels.
I am not. Perhaps because I do not fire up my work e-mail or have my phone check it when I am not working...
Most people who have a company phone use that for private stuff, too.
Hence the emails end up on the "only phone they have".
Emails to the computer is the same issue. They have a private computer (or a company owned one, does not really matter) and private as well as company mails end up on the same computer, in the same mail program.
I'm self employed, so I "have no boss", obviously my laptop is used for private and business stuff. You would be surprised how many recruiter requests come saturday or sunday late evening or at night even.
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
But then I never got paid for being on call as a SQA tester. :(
Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
This is simply the expected (and intended, and designed) spread of the Working Time Directive to cover all work places.
Note : these rules apply to employees. If you're self-employed, you can do what the fuck you want. But anyone who hires you has to follow the rules.
Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
There is no such thing like a "ban opf afterwork emails", just the right for an employee not to consult or answer his emails once he has finished his day. That's very different and it is called "droit à la déconnexion" (right to disconnect).
Do they kill 14,000 in a month from falling asleep?
If you think I voted for Trump because of this post, you're wrong. I voted for Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party. Again.
I turn off mail notifications at night. If I feel like checking it, I will, but if not, I don't. And as an independent consultant, I have received most of my good gigs on Saturday nights! :) But when you work for yourself, there is not real time off. :)
The bulk of the victims — many of them elderly — died during the height of the heat wave, which brought suffocating temperatures of up to 104 degrees in a country where air conditioning is rare. Others apparently were greatly weakened during the peak temperatures but did not die until days later.
Has anybody seen my stapler?
Sounds like someone has a case of the Mondays!
Are you incapable of finding other articles about the heat wave? Or do you think I was just looking for articles on french doctors and stumbled on that one? I was reading the news as it was happening, and talking with people here on slashdot about it Look at what the death rate was in other countries with everything similar except for labor/vacation laws. Air conditioning use wasn't what kept the numbers down in Germany or Belgium.
The reason so many died is that there was almost no medical care for the heat victims. Half the doctors were on their mandatory vacation for one month, and the other half did their 35 hours from Monday to Wednesday, then went home for four days. As the law required. The nurses could only do so much without doctors present. There were corpses filling the hospital corridors from the people who went there for treatment.That's where many of those old people died, not sitting at home.
After the month was over the one group of doctors came home from vacation, and the other half went on their vacation. So again, the patients had no doctors for half the week for another month.
There were a major investigation into why the government ministers didn't use emergency measures to pull at least some of the doctors home from vacation, or prevent the second group from going on theirs. But vacation time and limits on hours worked are so ingrained in their workers that nothing was done when needed.
Again, I was following this story at the time it was happening. Stop trying to score political points for "your side" and accept the fact that labor laws sometimes have tragic unforeseen consequences.
If you think I voted for Trump because of this post, you're wrong. I voted for Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party. Again.
Do you really think the US will do better where doctors are already working 16 hour days? What are you going to do? Tell them to work 30 hour days? At least in France they can declare some sort of "state of emergency" and double the number of working doctors.
Stop trying to score political points for "your side" and accept the fact that labor laws sometimes have tragic unforeseen consequences.
Why does the strawman pop up in every single internet discussion? Have you considered the possibility that I might have a moderate opinion on labor laws or are you too ignorant to care?
I think the word "Migrate" is the operable one here...
Understaffed hospitals can't cope with a mass influx of patients. Big deal.
Understaffed by legal mandate. Which is what I was replying to. I thought that was pretty clear.
Do you really think the US will do better where doctors are already working 16 hour days?
What is the highest death rate from a heat wave in the US? Not nearly 14,000. So, yes, the US does do it better.
What are you going to do? Tell them to work 30 hour days? At least in France they can declare some sort of "state of emergency" and double the number of working doctors.
Except that France specifically could not and did not do that. So, your argument is almost convincing, except that it was proven incorrect by reality.
Stop trying to score political points for "your side" and accept the fact that labor laws sometimes have tragic unforeseen consequences.
Why does the strawman pop up in every single internet discussion? Have you considered the possibility that I might have a moderate opinion on labor laws or are you too ignorant to care?
Sorry. I misunderstood your complete refusal to think about this situation on its own merits as evidence that you had an agenda to push.
If you think I voted for Trump because of this post, you're wrong. I voted for Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party. Again.