EgyptAir Flight 804 Missing (cnn.com)

dark.nebulae writes: An EgyptAir flight disappeared on it's way from Paris to Egypt resulting in loss of 56 passengers and 10 crew members. The plane was flying at 37,000 feet when it vanished shortly after entering Egyptian airspace. It was suppose to land in Cairo at 3:15 a.m. Thursday after leaving Paris' Charles de Gaulle Airport at 11:09 p.m. local time. CNN's aviation correspondent Richard Quest said, "Planes just do not fall out of the sky for no reason, particularly at 37,000 feet." He said the plane vanished while cruising -- the safest part of the journey. We'll update the story as more details emerge.

UPDATE 5/20/16 3:57 AM (UTC): Egypt's civil aviation minister says it's more likely terrorism than a technical issue. Greek officials said the plane swerved sharply and plunged from 37,000 feet down to the Mediterranean as the plane left Greek airspace for Egyptian airspace. [Source]

Comments

BBC article with links for family members

[johnjones]

also BBC source

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-36309492

Re:BBC article with links for family members

[Warrernoia]

Had it happened tomorrow the conspiracy theorists would have had a field day. Flight MS804 going down exactly 804 days after MH370 (taking the leap year into account). Oh well, maybe the Illuminati are plagued by a date bug ;-)

Re:BBC article with links for family members

[dejitaru]

Whoa... it actually did... Mind blown...

Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[Anonymous Coward]

Allahu Akbar ;[

Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not trolling, Slashdot.

20 per cent of people living in the city of Paris are immigrants and 41.3 per cent of people under 20 have at least one immigrant parent.

Second generation Muslims are the ones getting radicalized.

Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[guruevi]

Getting? First generation Muslims were equally radicalized however then-Europe didn't accept that. Now Europe must accept all sorts of religious nonsense or consider serious fines and even jail time for "hate" speech (even this comment could be construed as such). That and Muslims are breeding out natives by both natural propagation and force, the large cities like Paris and Brussels are no longer safe to the natives, a problem that started only a few decades ago.

Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[jandersen]

Second generation Muslims are the ones getting radicalized.

It would be more correct to say that disfranchised, young people in deprived areas are the ones that get radicalised. At the moment this group includes a large proportion of Muslims, but there is no reason to equate the two, for many reasons:

- We have historically seen this happen many times; in the beginning of the 20th century, we saw large numbers of Fascists, Communists and, yes, Conservatives in organised street fighting, we have seen the Suffragettes, and so on - every time there has has been a large proportion of young people who felt they had nothing to lose, and that they had to do something. Religion may have been the excuse sometimes, or idealism of one sort or another. This time there are many Muslims, because that particular group has recently contributed large numbers of migrants into Europe, and it is very hard to grow up as a teenager in between cultures. But it has nothing to do with their religion.

- Although there are many extremists at the moment, who self-identify as Muslims, they are not the only ones; we also have nominally Christian extremists (how absurd is that: 'pro-lifers' committing terrorism offences), there are some that call themselves 'Communists', 'Maoists' or Neo-Nazis. Whatever their ideology or religion, this is only an excuse they use to justify their atrocious actions to themselves.

I think, if we always point the finger of blame away from ourselves, we miss the opportunity to address the very real issues that cause this to happen. We have to accept that the anger that fuels radicalisation is, in fact, very justified, and we need to face up to the fact that we play a big part in creating these injustices. And then we need to fix the problems.

Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[Anonymous Coward]

Getting? First generation Muslims were equally radicalized

No they weren't. They were mostly hard working people trying to escape from poverty and bad places. They were happy with where they were and integrated reasonably well

however then-Europe didn't accept that. Now Europe must accept all sorts of religious nonsense or consider serious fines and even jail time for "hate" speech (even this comment could be construed as such).

This is a bit of a misrepresentation of the history. The fact is that American backed Saudi Wahhabi preachers have come in to the mosques worldwide. There is a likely reason why the 9/11 report won't be published since it will turn out that there was indirect CIA involvement in supporting the Saudi's that funded the attack. Simply put, there are many different groups with many different interests among muslims and if you aren't able to separate them and undestand the differences between them then you push them all together.

That and Muslims are breeding out natives by both natural propagation and force, the large cities like Paris and Brussels are no longer safe to the natives, a problem that started only a few decades ago.

This idea of "no longer safe" is crazy. Work the areas of the worst neighborhoods in the Banlieu of Paris and then compare to hotspots in Oakland or Boston. Nowhere in Western Europe is truly unsafe.

Re: Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[Anonymous Coward]

I will say that at the moment, it's predominantly Muslims. In the 1900's it was anarchists. In the 70's it was generic young people (hijacking planes.) Who knows what it will be in 30 years?

Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[Anonymous Coward]

How many of these 20% are coming from another EU country? Paris is an expensive place to live.

Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[angel'o'sphere]

You are trolling.
And trolling is not hate speech.
Also you obviously never have been in Paris or Brussels.
Muslims are a minority in both cities. There are just slightly more in Paris than there are in rural France.
I suggest you consult the wikipedia pages of France and Belgium to see how few muslims are living there, idiot.

Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[Anonymous Coward]

disfranchised, young people in deprived areas are the ones that get radicalised

Yes, but there are reasons why they are in that situation, and unlike what the people who radicalize them want you to believe, it's not a conspiracy against muslim youth. The young muslims who were brought up as the Europeans they are don't have as many and severe problems as their frustrated counterparts who keep coming up against insurmountable barriers while trying to live like Arabs in Europe.

Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[Bongo]

Well, not exactly. There's several books by Arabs, Moslems, etc. who point out that there really is an Islamic ideology which aims to take over the world. Think of it like Communism. Certainly, Western Islamophobia exists, but so does Islamic Westphobia. And this isn't to paint everyone with the same brush. They are quite clear though, that Islamism, or whatever you want to call it, exists, and it isn't just a reaction to bigotry and marginalisation. Besides, too often, even the general public notices that this or that young radical, actually came from a nice middle class neighbourhood and was studying medicine at university. It is an ideology. It blocks reasoned thinking. And it has some support at all levels. When the OIC (representing 57 Muslim countries) claims that "universal human rights" are ok but ONLY the ones which don't contradict Islam, that's part of the problem. Yes, Islamophobia exists, but it isn't what's driving the ideology.

Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[Anonymous Coward]

the anger that fuels radicalisation is, in fact, very justified

It's not, or at least it's aimed at the wrong people. The young muslim who wasted his time in faith schools should be angry at his parents for denying him a prosperous European life. The young muslima who keeps segregating herself from her European peers by wearing a hijab should be angry at her family as well. It's not us Europeans who require these things from young immigrants. It's their families' misguided desire to be true to their roots which costs them the chance to be a valued part of the European society. It's not exclusion. It's a failure to join.

Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[Anonymous Coward]

the anger that fuels radicalisation is, in fact, very justified

It's not, or at least it's aimed at the wrong people. The young muslim who wasted his time in faith schools should be angry at his parents for denying him a prosperous European life. The young muslima who keeps segregating herself from her European peers by wearing a hijab should be angry at her family as well. It's not us Europeans who require these things from young immigrants. It's their families' misguided desire to be true to their roots which costs them the chance to be a valued part of the European society. It's not exclusion. It's a failure to join.

The main problem for me is it seems the most important thing to a lot of muslims is being muslim. So much so that it's quite ambiguous when someone says muslim if they mean person from the middle east or person who follows the islamic faith.

Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[drinkypoo]

Although there are many extremists at the moment, who self-identify as Muslims, they are not the only ones

The most interesting extremists right now are Muslims.

I think, if we always point the finger of blame away from ourselves, we miss the opportunity to address the very real issues that cause this to happen.

Yes, we intentionally exacerbated them as a problem so that we would have an enemy, that is irresponsible. However, religion is a cancer. Nobody should be so easy to fool and rile up and make violent.

Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[johanw]

In Europe, we have several immigrant groups. Chinese for example. They never cause much trouble, work hard and try to raise by giving their children education. Therefore, most people have no issues at all with Chinese people living here. Arabs and niggers are causing much more problems and are therefore logically not liked very much.

Fortunately the christians here are not as radical as some in the US. There are also a lot less of them - atheists are the dominant group here, at least in The Netherlands where I live.

Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[DNS-and-BIND]

There it is AGAIN. A leftist, making excuses for Islamists, and trying to deflect the blame and say the whole thing is the West's fault for being so kind and admitting these people. How many Syrian refugees have Islamic countries taken in? How about a word about them? What is *with* the left-wing alliance with Islamists? Why is there always one to jump right up and defend them? You know they execute homosexuals and legally allow spouse abuse?

Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[erikkemperman]

Yes, there is undoubtedly some of that.

On the other hand, many people (not you per se) grossly overestimate the fraction of Muslims that are Islamists, in this sense. Partly this is because they are a disproportionately loud fraction, but there is also the deliberate exaggeration on the part of Le Pen, Wilders, Farage, and so on, i.e. far-right nationalists who need "others" for us to fear.

Also, let's not forget that this colonialist mentality you are describing here used to be par for the course for us Europeans for a very, very long time -- and people on the receiving end of it were routinely labelled "savages" for not welcoming and adopting our superior ways.

Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[XxtraLarGe]

There it is AGAIN. A leftist, making excuses for Islamists, and trying to deflect the blame and say the whole thing is the West's fault for being so kind and admitting these people. How many Syrian refugees have Islamic countries taken in? How about a word about them? What is *with* the left-wing alliance with Islamists? Why is there always one to jump right up and defend them? You know they execute homosexuals and legally allow spouse abuse?

Liberals defend Islam because the largest critics of Islam are Christian conservatives--the liberals' biggest boogey-man. If conservatives oppose something, liberals feel compelled to defend it. Additionally, there is the liberal commitment to cultural relativism & multiculturalism. If Muslims want to execute homosexuals, abuse their spouses, or arrest women for not wearing hijabs in photos on the internet, it's because those things are their cultural norm, so who are we to judge?

Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[Anonymous Coward]

What is *with* the left-wing alliance with Islamists? Why is there always one to jump right up and defend them? You know they execute homosexuals and legally allow spouse abuse?

It's a pretty simple political tactic. Dogmatic atheists despise all religion. Since there are many religions that a rational populace does not despise, the dogmatic atheists work hard to create a perception of equality between "love your neighbor as yourself" and "kill the infidel." If you look at the content of such discussions, they refuse to note any difference in the teachings of "Abrahamic religions" and in a non-trivial number of cases blame World War 2 on an overabundance of Jews.

That may not seem like an end game, and it isn't. Their plan is to ally with the most violent religion until it cleanses the world of other religions, and then they intent to crush the primitive religious folk and usher in a new age of humanity. Many working toward this end dream of a amoral paradise with daily orgy hour after lunch. Those who are positioned to get into authority have a different vision.
However, if history is any warning, their fate would be similar to that of the true communists during the rise of socialist and fascist nations in the 1930's and 1940's. They allied with one of the two totalitarian factions amid talk of abandoning governmental authority once the old ways were removed. Then they were the second group murdered "for the greater good."

Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[Eunuchswear]

20 per cent of people living in the city of Paris are immigrants and 41.3 per cent of people under 20 have at least one immigrant parent.

Yes, but that doesn't mean they are muslims.

My children are the children of immigrants -- I'm a Brit, living in Paris.

Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[GLMDesigns]

You're saying that the US Government (from Eisenhower to Obama) are directly backing Wahhabi preachers?

That the US government (from President to Secretaries of State) have been colluding to give more and more power to these imams?

Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[GLMDesigns]

Muslim population is 10% and growing. Are they integrating with Post-Catholic France? No.

At what point would you know longer call it a "few muslims"?

Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[Eunuchswear]

How many Syrian refugees have Islamic countries taken in?

About 4.4 million.

(2.7 million in Turkey, 1.5 million in Lebanon and 1.2 million in Jordan).

What was your point?

Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[Anonymous Coward]

You're saying that the US Government (from Eisenhower to Obama) are directly backing Wahhabi preachers?

No; The US government are directly backing the Saudi Arabian state who are doing more than just backing the preachers, they are actively creating, developing and spreading them. Some of this is probably for fear of something worse, but it's still happening.

Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[Anonymous Coward]

On the other hand, many people (not you per se) grossly overestimate the fraction of Muslims that are Islamists, in this sense.

I don't think they do. A small fraction of the highly motivated one commit the crimes. The vast majority of them harbor them, and run interference. They all must go.

Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[Anonymous Coward]

As a fellow Dutchman: apart from being racist (certainly in terms of language) the above is also inaccurate drivel. For one thing, the Chinese immigrants came here for the most part as knowledge workers, while those from Suriname, the Antilles, Morocco and Turkey were pro-actively brought here to do menial work.

Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[Feral Nerd]

Well, not exactly. There's several books by Arabs, Moslems, etc. who point out that there really is an Islamic ideology which aims to take over the world. Think of it like Communism.

Isn't that also the agenda of Christianity and every other fanatical missionary religion in human history?

Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[Applehu Akbar]

"A leftist, making excuses for Islamists, and trying to deflect the blame and say the whole thing is the West's fault for being so kind and admitting these people. "

Leftists also reflexively defended the enemy during the Cold War, but in those days I could see a rationale, since Communism was an exaggerated version of their own belief system. But jihadism is totally opposite to everything our left stands for right now: status of women, prisoner rights, gay rights, worker rights, and use of rape as a standard tactic for exercising power and outbreeding the local population. Our left loves to mock every other religion, but curiously not this particularly bad example of one.

Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[Feral Nerd]

There it is AGAIN. A leftist, making excuses for Islamists, and trying to deflect the blame and say the whole thing is the West's fault for being so kind and admitting these people. How many Syrian refugees have Islamic countries taken in? How about a word about them? What is *with* the left-wing alliance with Islamists? Why is there always one to jump right up and defend them? You know they execute homosexuals and legally allow spouse abuse?

All you had to do to avoid looking like a stupid right wing blowhard was to run a web search. Three moslem countries seem to lead the list:

Turkey 2,748,367
Lebanon 1,500,000
Jordan 1,265,000
Germany 484,000
Greece 496,119

Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[Anonymous Coward]

The main problem for me is it seems the most important thing to a lot of muslims is being muslim.

So what? The only inherent thing that would cause any problems with that is the widespread western attitude that how a large portion of the world's population chooses to live their life is somehow "wrong". The problem for me is it seems is you can't mind your own business, nevermind the fashion police in the parent post.

Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[jandersen]

Well, not exactly. There's several books by Arabs, Moslems, etc. who point out that there really is an Islamic ideology which aims to take over the world.

You mean, a bit like this (Matthew ch 28):

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[Moridineas]

Isn't that also the agenda of Christianity and every other fanatical missionary religion in human history?

With some historical differences.

Both Islam and Christianity are spreading religions. That is, it's a tenet of faith that it's a good thing to spread the faith by conversion. One can compare this to, e.g., Judaism.

Christianity has been spread by both force and by missionary activity. The earliest conversions were almost entirely underground and "bottom up." Many later conversions were "top down". Today it's pretty much universally agreed that conversion cannot be forced and must be personal. Even the most imperialist missionaries of the the 18th and 19th centuries were almost always essentially aid workers as well (building schools, hospitals, etc). Yes, they did have an ulterior motive!

Islam has also been spread by both force and by missionary activity (See the relatively peaceful spread of Islam in e.g. Malaysia and Indonesia). Unlike Christianity, the early and most rapid spread of Islam followed pretty much exactly with the Arab conquest of North Africa through Central Asia, southern Europe through Africa. Islam has historically been linked much more tightly to political apparatus than Christianity--I like to think of it in terms of Islam being a "triumphalist" religion (winning battles and expanding rapidly in the time of Muhammad) versus Christianity as underground of subversive religion--spreading underground through conversion (think even today, the house churches in China). The climax of Islam is Muhammad receiving revelations from god and winning. The climax of Christianity is Jesus being executed for his beliefs and actions. Quite a difference!

Islam has also been much more concerned that Muslims live in Islamic controlled states--not that the polities necessarily have to be 100% Muslim. This is Marshall Hodgson's term "Islamdom." The sphere of the world controlled by Islamic political powers and largely Islamicate (his term, again) in terms of culture, but that may not even be majority Muslim in terms of faith of the population! So historians think that it may have been the 18th century before a majority of Egyptians were Muslim, for instance (after over a millennium of Islamic rule).

In terms of that interesting word jihad, that's widely debated. Some would argue that jihad is never about conversion. I don't believe that. For recent examples, see for instance the area of Afghanistan formerly known as Kafiristan (Lands of the Unbelievers) and now known as Nuristan (Land of Enlightenment) after a jihad of forced conversion in the 1890s. See also the jihads of forced conversion in West Africa in the 18th and 19th centuries. Or, for the matter, the stealing of Nigerian Christian girls and their forced conversion in Nigeria today.

So, that all boils down to, do Christianity and Islam both have as its agenda to "take over the world?" Yes and no :-) I would say that Islamic theology has long had a greater interest in Islamic institutions being in political control than has Christian theology. IMHO, that's one of the reasons Europe was able to overcome religion and secular humanism, the age of reason, and all that good stuff came about.

Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[Anonymous Coward]

Not sure who you hang around with, but the leftists I know lump all religious conservatives into symptoms of the same underlying disease - relinquishing your rational thought processes to some huckster claiming to speak for a god that doesn't exist. The thin line between Christians and Islams is about as meaningful as the thin line between Republicans and Democrats.

Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[jandersen]

It's not, or at least it's aimed at the wrong people.

I'm not saying the target for their anger is well chosen - but there is a very real injustice that is prevalent in the Western societies, among others, and it is very reasonable that young people become very angry, when they grow up knowing that whatever they do and however hard they work, they are always going to be worthless. The support for Trump, the Tea Party and to some extent Bernie Sanders are symptoms of pretty much the same: People are sick of the way things are, and they seriously want it to stop, so they follow anything that looks like it might be better - or at least different. Don't you feel the anger yourself, sometimes? I do - I was lucky enough to make it past those hurdles and made it to adulthood and established a family; but it could have ended differently.

Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[Anonymous Coward]

There it is AGAIN. A leftist, making excuses for Islamists, and trying to deflect the blame and say the whole thing is the West's fault for being so kind and admitting these people. How many Syrian refugees have Islamic countries taken in? How about a word about them? What is *with* the left-wing alliance with Islamists? Why is there always one to jump right up and defend them? You know they execute homosexuals and legally allow spouse abuse?

The problem with the far side of the left is that they tend to have people whose heart is larger than their brains.

(One would think that would be a characteristic of the religious right but the far end of that side tend to be the most heartless people in existence.)

CAPTCHA: center. How appropriate.

Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[Anonymous Coward]

Notice the lack of anything resembling force in that. "Teach" rather than "subjugate."

Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[Anonymous Coward]

How many Syrian refugees have Islamic countries taken in? ?

I think you will find that Turkey has taken more than any country combined

Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes but Turkey, Lebanon and Jordan are not true Islamic countries. The proof is that they have a tons of refugees. No true scottish country would do that!

Re: Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[Anonymous Coward]

And 40% of young adults in France with immigrant parents don't have a job because of the stupid labor regulations stifling the economy.

Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[jandersen]

A leftist

Heh, yeah, I'm a leftist: someone who disagrees with you.

How many Syrian refugees have Islamic countries taken in?

I remember something about several millions by Turkey, something similar for other neighboring countries in the region. But look up your own statistics, they can't be hard to find.

What is *with* the left-wing alliance with Islamists?

Who knows? It's the first I've heard of it. Can you provide details? Sorry, I shouldn't be sarcastic, I know. What I do know is that there is some cooperation between Neo-Nazis in Denmark and Islamist terrorists - it is only natural I suppose, since both groups tend to be anti-semites.

Why is there always one to jump right up and defend them?

Perhaps it is because people like you are always being generic, uninformed and unfair in your criticism? There is nothing wrong with criticising things based on a sound understanding of the situation, but you are intellectually lazy and default to generic attacks with no real insight.

You know they execute homosexuals and legally allow spouse abuse?

Do they? I know Uganda, a mostly Christian nation AFAIK, practise some draconian laws against homosexuals, and I have heard Daesh execute gay men, but then they seem to revel in the most bestial brutality they can think of. This is the kind of things that happen when religion or ideology becomes more important than real human beings: you start using it as an excuse for living out whatever filth is in your mind. There are Muslims that do this, but it is not a specifically Muslim trait - Christians do it too, and just as much. Think Catholics and child abuse: same thing.

You call me a 'leftist'? Please do - to me it is badge of honour, that means I think critically.

Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[Anonymous Coward]

You heard it here, folks. Slashdot user jandersen says its ok for extremists to go around killing people because they are [sic] 'disfranchised'.

It is the evil white men that are causing them to do the killing.

Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[nitehawk214]

If conservatives oppose something, liberals feel compelled to defend it.

Holy shit that is it. I had been asking myself "why would feminists and islamists be on the same side" for at least a year with nobody able to give a response other than "victim culture", which I felt can't be all of it.

But I think you nailed it right on the head here. Protesters gotta protest, and the regressives feel like everyone not of the majority should fall under their banner. One would think they would have figured it out by now, but once they graduate with their underwater basket weaving degrees and hit the job market, they will figure it out.

Re: Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[Anonymous Coward]

What the hell are you smoking?

Re: Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[Anonymous Coward]

All men must go too. All these extremist and criminals are 95% men. Out with the men!

Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[Calydor]

One of the current problems is the number of lives one extremist is able to claim before he's stopped. Look at the attack on the rock concert in France, or the airport in Bruxelles, or a plane getting taken out of the air.

If one person can kill hundreds, even having less than one percent of muslims be extremists is a really, REALLY big problem.

Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[phantomfive]

Frankly, I'm fine with Christians or Muslims trying to take over the world.
I'm not fine with either one of them taking it by force. If your words can't convince me, then let me be. Think of better words.

Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[erikkemperman]

Absolutely, no argument there. But overreacting by demonizing the whole group for the actions of a few will have innocent victims too.

Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[XxtraLarGe]

Not sure who you hang around with, but the leftists I know lump all religious conservatives into symptoms of the same underlying disease - relinquishing your rational thought processes to some huckster claiming to speak for a god that doesn't exist.

That may be so, but there's also the "enemy of my enemy is my friend." In America, conservative Christians are an immediate threat to the leftist/atheist/homosexual lifestyle crowd. Islam is a distant threat somewhere else.

The thin line between Christians and Islams is about as meaningful as the thin line between Republicans and Democrats.

If you think there's a thin line between Christians and Muslims, try this: Pick any city in the USA or Europe and in public during the day, paint a painting of Jesus, and tell everyone who passes by what you're doing. Then pick any city in Egypt/Saudi Arabia/Libya/Iraq/Iran/Afghanistan and do the same thing, except make the painting of Mohammed. I think you'd soon see the thin line is much larger than you thought.

Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[Anonymous Coward]

And it looks like now that it was indeed Allahu Akbar as suspected from the start.

Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[Calydor]

Agreed.

But that leads to more philosophical questions, doesn't it?

If there will be innocent victims no matter which solution is taken (let anyone in without checking if they're terrorists, or seal the borders no matter if people aren't terrorists), what do you do? Wouldn't most people choose to leave the victims on the side that isn't close to them, eg. Europeans choosing to seal the borders to keep the muslims out and by extension forcing them to stay in war-torn countries, but reducing the risk of terrorist bombings within Europe?

Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[erikkemperman]

Well, I think there's middle ground between those extremes. Closing borders to the whole religion is just as impossible as 100% preventing damage by lone wolf jihadis.

I don't have all the answers, obviously. Just wanted to point out that broad brush demagoguery is less than helpful.

Going forward it would be a good idea to stop interfering in their countries, it seems to me. That would not deter the fanatic leaders but definitely make it a lot harder for them to recruit foot soldiers. Things like the Paris and Brussels attacks, and London and Madrid before, might happen less often.

Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[Rakarra]

But jihadism is totally opposite to everything our left stands for right now: status of women, prisoner rights, gay rights, worker rights, and use of rape as a standard tactic for exercising power and outbreeding the local population

Most leftists I've known have absolutely no love for jihadis or conservative muslims, but see them as a very separate creature from the liberal or normal Muslims, while some of the more ultra-conservative Christians don't see a difference between the two or feel like the liberal Muslims are responsible for the conservative actions.

Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[hey!]

Well, religious (and other) provisos to "human rights" isn't an exclusively Muslim thing either. Many Christians believe that discriminating against gays or transgender people is OK, for example.

People understand the world in terms of ideological frames in which a term like "human rights" implies different things. A Swedish social democrat's notion of "human rights" is very different from a US Tea Party Republican. And it's not the case that either concepts of "human rights" is broader than the other; it's that each version contains things which are logically inconsistent with the other version. The social democrat sees the ability of an unpopular group to purchase without discrimination any good or service as part of the human rights package; the Tea Party Republican sees the right not to conduct business with people you find morally repugnant part of the human rights package. Neither sees their view of human rights as "human rights minus something"; they see their own version as complete and perfect and the other version as incomplete and/or inconsistent.

No matter where you stand in the hyperplane of ideology or religion, you will see others who stand in a different place as supporting limited versions of "human rights". And they'll see you the same way.

Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[GodelEscherBlecch]

Jesus, look at you guys - even your strawmen have strawman arguments now. If you want to know what somebody thinks, try asking them instead of playing your six degrees of imaginary argument bullshit. The first thing you are likely to discover is that (big surprise), people are more complex than 'Liberal' and 'Feminist' and the ridiculous mischaracterized personae that you have built up behind those words. I could type out the epic debate where I utterly trounce a 'Conservative Christian' or a 'Trump Supporter' who just keeps thinking the same dumb shit; but I don't, because that is a cartoon character not a person, and because that would be a masturbatory, idiotic thing to do.

But you guys go ahead and give 'em what for though - everybody's cheering for you! And by everybody I mean all the other fictional characters who populate your papier mache worldview.

Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe I don't get out much but I don't know anyone who defends Islam from legitimate criticisms, especially extremeism. They do defend Islam from blanket statements. Including myself.

Seriously, it's hard to grasp the logic that Islam is a religion of violence when the most pessimistic estimates put the number of Muslims supporting violence at 10%.

I'll argue with conservative Muslims all day about treatment of women in conservative Muslim countries among other things. But I'm not going to wish the end of an entire religion based on an argument that has no basis in reality.

Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[Anonymous Coward]

The demonization, and ensuing mistreatment of the whole group serves only to *increase* the number among that group who see it as evidence that the extremists are *correct* in their claims.

Let's say, for example, that you have 1,000 students in a dormitory.
One of those students burns a car in the parking lot protesting their treatment by the administration.
I think we'd probably all agree that that action was almost certainly an extreme response, right?
I think we'd also all agree that the student who torched the car should probably be arrested and tried in a fair court. Correct?

Let's say, though, that instead of getting the authorities involved to determine which student torched the car, the school responds by firebombing the south wing of the dormitory, without regard for whether the guilty student even lived on campus.
Do you think that reaction would cause *more* or *less* extreme responses from students in the future?
How about from the families of students?
Or their friends?
Or even students from other schools?

Heavy handed, indiscriminate responses by the 'enemy' are one of the best recruiting tools available to extremists, because they provide evidence that the extremists position is *correct*.

Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[T.E.D.]

It's not, or at least it's aimed at the wrong people. The young muslim who wasted his time in faith schools ...

...by and large isn't joining ISIS. The young Muslim who got a higher degree, has trouble getting a job using that degree, feels dissociated from the culture he's currently living in, and doesn't actually know much about Islam itself, that's who's joining ISIS.

Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[Anonymous Coward]

Or, how about this one:

Luke 19:27, where Jesus says:
"But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me."

Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[GodelEscherBlecch]

Yeah I am not seeing the point in this distinction, unless it is to claim that Islamism is somehow unique among all other upstart strata of society in history and that it uniquely deserves casting suspicion on all members of its larger base of Islam. This seems highly unjust, and catastrophically misleading when applied to coming up with a plan to combat it (i.e. let's attack Islam and radicalism, because Islam has somehow done something as a whole to deserve that, and it's not like it's going to increase the radicalism at all, right?). I don't know how many times we have to label X the 'great evil of our decade/generation/century' before we realize that all of the 'thems' are all formed of the same basic tectonic forces that are always at work in society pushing one group of people against, past or through another. None of them are truly unique in their origins, yet each one is accompanied by all new bouts of pearl clutching, doomsday speak and resolutions to crush them out of existence as if such a thing were possible. All this fallacious thinking does is to ensure that you are reset to zero every time you start dealing with a new one, because you didn't fucking learn anything from the last one. Most of the time, 20 years on, the 'great evil' is integrated if not accepted as a part of our society and we look back on the pearl-clutchers as backward assholes, so what was the point of all that?

'Oh that one was different. It was just {Irish|communists|unions|blacks|gays} - they turned out to be not so bad. But this one - this is the real devil in the world! Don't you see!? It's in their very {genetics|religion|philosophy}! They hate us and will do anything to destroy us!'.

.

I can only hear this template for treating people like shit so many times (once) before it is proven to be nonsensical, but somehow we keep spinning the wheel. It's like watching a truly godawful programmer try to write what is clearly meant to be recursive logic using for loops: it just ain't gonna work buddy - time to change your mindset and approach!

Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[Anonymous Coward]

> Also you obviously never have been in Paris or Brussels.

Your a chinky yanky. You've never been to either. You don't even know if they're countries or cities.

Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[T.E.D.]

IOW: "Quit trying to understand what's going on, and grab your damn flaming torch and pitchfork along with everyone else."

Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[Rakarra]

If there will be innocent victims no matter which solution is taken (let anyone in without checking if they're terrorists, or seal the borders no matter if people aren't terrorists), what do you do?

There will always be innocent victims, so it's better to die being the sort of person you want to see in the world, rather than die becoming closer in thought and action to the enemy you're fighting.

Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[Anonymous Coward]

The radical Muslims with a degree that you have in mind have all been radicalized while they were still students, long before they could have hoped to use their degree to find a job.

Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[Anonymous Coward]

In Africa, the two religions Christianity, and Islam act as proxies for tribal conflict.

Tribe A, is Religion D
Tribe B is Religion E.

Is it just the Islamic tribe that seeks consquest? I doubt it.

Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd argue that "that young radical, actually came from a nice middle class neighbourhood and was studying medicine at university" is not mutually exclusive with "young person feels they have nothing to lose"

Medical school is very stresfull and pretty much the reference speck for something parents pressure their children into pursuing while society as whole discourages dropping out to pursue less stresfull career options.

Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[Calydor]

Tongue in cheek: Which one is a gruesome beheading, and which one is peacefully in my sleep of old age?

Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[Moridineas]

Sure, religious conversions almost always follow tribal, caste, racial, social, or economics (or some combination!) divisions.

I'm by no means an expert on the West African jihads, but I don't think you can just boil them down to a proxy for tribal conflict. There were certainly economic motivations as well--the slave trade was huge in, e.g., Sokoto. From what I do know, though, you would be very hard-pressed to make the case that those jihads were not driven by a desire to spread Islam.

As a counter example, in India today, many Muslims are the descendants of Muslims (Arabs, Turks, Persians, and others who invaded the subcontinent at various times). Many Muslims who are converts (or rather, whose family converted at some point in history) came from the lowest castes of Hinduism. The same thing goes with Christianity (minus the descendants of invaders). Many--if not the majority--of Indian Christians in India today came from low castes. Another interesting phenomena in Indian Christianity is that 50-60 years ago, across most of India (and ignoring areas like Kerala), almost all ministers and priests would have been of Western descent. Today, that's rate, and almost all religious organizations, etc., are run indigenously.

In India, many Muslims and Christians alike converted to their new religious precisely because their new religion was seen as more egalitarian.

Here's a fascinating article I read recently that illustrates the point:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-36220329 (Why are many Indian Muslims seen as untouchable?)

Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[Anonymous Coward]

The proportion of people in the US who feel homosexuality is OK is also pretty small but its a very vocal minority.
And this vocal minority has managed to make laws to change society in the west.
This is because while the silent majority dont think its OK they mostly dont care as they are busy living their own lives.
A vocal minority can drag entire societies along for the ride.
Islamists may be a minority but they are dragging the entire OIC along to their point of view.

Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[Anonymous Coward]

It kind of proves his point. Those are the more secular and tolerant compared to other Muslim countries. How many have Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states, taken in?

Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[Anonymous Coward]

You were missing the 'kill all unbelievers' part of Christian doctrine?

I can't add anything about the Christian view, but since:

Deuteronomy 13:6-11 .. Numbers 31

are from the Torah, I can comment on the Jewish understanding.

The court that could sentence capital punishment dissolved ~2000yrs ago. When it existed, it virtually never issued the death penalty. Here are some requirements ( taken from en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_and_corporal_punishment_in_Judaism ) :

The witnesses could not be related to each other or to the accused.
The witnesses had to see each other, and both of them had to give a warning that the sin about to be committed was a capital offense.
The person about to sin had to: Respond that s/he was familiar with the punishment, but they were going to sin anyway; AND Begin to commit the sin/crime.
The Beth Din (court) had to examine each witness separately; and if even one point of their evidence was contradictory the evidence was considered contradictory and was not heeded.
If the Beth Din arrived at a unanimous verdict of guilty, the person was let go - the idea being that if no judge could find anything exculpatory about the accused, there was something wrong with the court.

Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[angel'o'sphere]

Half of France are Atheists, just like most of Europe.

Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[angel'o'sphere]

A friend of mine is of the opinion, the problems we have right now on the planet are all caused by one single root: monotheistic religions.
Considering the fact hat Christians, Muslims and Jews (in order of perceived number of membership) all believe in the same god (and there a a few niche religions, with about a million followers each, who believe in that exact same god, too) ... people cant imagine how peaceful countries are where stuff like this is considered absurd.

In Thailand e.g. there is a noticeable (10% - 15% ?) muslim population. However: they are first of all, Thai! Girls wear a veil, but I never saw one hiding her face. They ride motor bikes, sit on the lab of boys, drink (alcohol) if they want etc.

Where ever Buddhism and Islam interconnect there is no problem or issue what so ever.

You can stay for weeks or month at a road crossing and preach ... people will simply accept your preaching and ignore your message ... or follow you. No war, no fight no harassment.

This anti Islam messages we see here is just the "Christian uproar" about: we failed and now they "seem" to win.

Sorry, either you believe in the Jew, Muslim, Christian god: then you have to embrace human beings and love them, or you don't. If you don't embrace human beings and love them, you are not following jewish, christian or muslim religion/doctrine etc.

I for my part (as an Atheist) can easily cope with any natural religion, Buddhists or Shintoists, e.g Shamanism etc.

Abrahamic believers, are a pain in the ass. Most painful are Christians, not Jews, nor Muslims.

And for reference: I live in Odin's lands ...

When ever I see an internet advert for parties seeking attention for "Christian Values", I send them an eMail: "This is Germania!" (You english speaking guys want to call us Teutons, but the correct term is "germans", hence the english name of our country. The "Teutons" were a single tribe ... )

When I see such "advertisements" I write back: "what the f**k is a christian value?" Love your children? Love your wife? "And how does that differ from any pagan value?"

Germany is not a Christian country. You can turn it how ever you want. 50% - 80% are Atheists. Only going to church on Christmas or Eastern (to not lose face, not faith, face!).

Most of Europeans are not Christians. You go to Church to marry, to bury your dead, to ... cough, cough ... baptize your child, randomly on Christmas, depending on ethnos at Eastern ... thats it! I only visit churches when friends of me marry ...

Before the pseudo Christian uproar (as we see right now), we (Germany, Scandinavia) were a ' "right to hospitality" is sacred country '. Immigrants, travelers, traders were welcome! Just like any muslim country is today. You go to any muslim country and ask for help and shelter: the poorest guy will share his meal with you!

Christians: not so much.

Anyway, I get side tracked.

If you believe a religion is your enemy ... you are very likely very dumb.

Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[angel'o'sphere]

There it is AGAIN. A leftist, making excuses for Islamists
How do you know he is a lefty and not a righty?

You seem to be an idiot ;D

and legally allow spouse abuse?
That was legal till 1997, e.g. in Germany. (Cough cough ...) And in plenty of western countries till mid 19xx, with varying degrees of xx.

You know they execute homosexuals
Homosexuality is legal regarding Islam laws. Only backward countries "punish" it, and yes, unfortunately sometimes with death.

The origin of anti homosexual laws was ... uuuuuuh, let me memorize .... was about 1100 before christ. Written laws are from about 550 before christ. Islam was founded roughly (easy to memorize) 500 after christ. So you want to blame anti homosexual laws on Islam, instead of the culture of the people who happen to be born in an islamic country?

Laws against homosexuality in Germany were abolished 1994.

A shame, isn't it?

So you are arguing against countries, islamic countries, that are roughly 22 years behind us?

When was it exactly that "rape in a matrimony" became a crime in your country? Or that "homosexual activity" was no longer a crime?

As sad as it is if one gets executed "for nothing" ... before blaming other nations, countries, religions, I would rather try to figure how such "stuff evolves" and "think about what you can do".

Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[Anonymous Coward]

Frankly, I'm fine with Christians or Muslims trying to take over the world.

I'm not fine with either one of them taking it by force. If your words can't convince me, then let me be. Think of better words.

Yeah, I hear you. As a Christian, I am appalled at the thought of converting others at the point of a sword, as was too often done during the Crusades. Even today, some are still all too willing to go for that barbaric approach. I would appreciate it if my so-called Christian brethren would take the example of our Lord, who urged a rich young man to "sell all you have and come follow me"; when the guy refused, rather than chase after him and compel him to comply, Jesus let the guy walk away. Or the time when "many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him".; rather than impatiently lash out in anger his response was to ask the twelve "You do not want to leave too, do you?” If more Christians would actually follow the example of the one they claim as saviour and Lord, the world would be a much better place.

Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[Anonymous Coward]

How many Syrian refugees have Islamic countries taken in? ?

I think you will find that Turkey has taken more than any country combined

Yeah, not by desire but because they have to. It's kind of hard to keep them out when they just decide to come on over, invited or not.

Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm the AC that explained why there hasn't been capital punishment in Judaism for ~2 millennium. I was remiss in correcting your misunderstanding of the scripture, especially Deuteronomy 13. To put it bluntly, this deals with apostasy; it's only for the Israelites. Funny enough, Deuteronomy 13 is one of the scriptures that makes Jesus as the Messiah incompatible with normative Judaism.

Numbers 31 is tricky: it's not specified if the order to kill male children & married women was divine, only that Moses said it. Additionally there's no confirmation it was carried out. Keep in mind the state of the world in the time of Moses; there wasn't a Geneva Convention. Regardless, Numbers 31 is _narrative_, *not* commandment.

It's 'funny' that you cite these unorthodox interpretations from a man who's only qualifications are being a comedian. "Ed Brayton tired of explaining his jokes to small groups of dazed illiterates.." the irony.

Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[Gussington]

Jesus, look at you guys - even your strawmen have strawman arguments now. If you want to know what somebody thinks, try asking them instead of playing your six degrees of imaginary argument bullshit.

It seems Slashdot is reaching that point where the people who like to discuss things are now outweighed by the people who just come for a fight.
It's a very real phenomenon with any public forum, and the mod system works ok most of the time, but sometimes I think about how this could be improved but there's no easy answers.
Maybe like cool nightclubs, the sensible people need a new secret web forum every few months that the idiots can't keep up with? How else do you solve this?

Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[Gussington]

Our left loves to mock every other religion, but curiously not this particularly bad example of one.

I wonder what base of measurement you use to come up with this conclusion?
As someone who finds all religion ridiculous, I find Islam equally ridiculous as any other. The difference is that I see idiot Christians pushing their shit on me everyday, which creates more opportunity to mock such activity. I can't recall any other religion, be it Islam, Jewish, Buddhist or whatever pushing their shit on me anywhere near as badly.
The nearest mosque is the other side of the city, the Jews all live in their own suburb and keep to themselves mostly, and the Buddhists you wouldn't even know who they are because they don't feel the need to tell you about all the time. If Christians behaved as equally as obscurely, maybe they'd get more peace.

Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[Eunuchswear]

The groaning sound of the moving goalposts rings across the interwebs.

Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[jandersen]

Notice the lack of anything resembling force in that. "Teach" rather than "subjugate."

Indeed. Unfortunately, people through the ages have seen nothing strange in taking this to mean 'subjugate'; the sword seems often to be the preferred, pedagocical tool. Likewise, whatever the Qur'an may or may not say about the subject, there have been many Muslim rulers who have not felt compelled to force their religion on others. What this tell us is that these things are open to interpretation, and in the end it comes down to what kind of people do the interpretation. All religions, even the most nominally peace loving and tolerant, have been used to excuse whatever their followers were doing. So, don't blame the religion, blame those who do the deeds. Of course, once you realise that the specific religions are not to blame, it potentially brings the criticism so much closer to your own back yard.

Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[Anonymous Coward]

they "seem" to win.

Oh they're definitely not winning, but them dragging us down with them is a concern.

Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[Agripa]

We have to accept that the anger that fuels radicalisation is, in fact, very justified, and we need to face up to the fact that we play a big part in creating these injustices. And then we need to fix the problems.

But how will fixing these problems support the military-industrial complex complex?

Re:Paris isn't exactly French these days.

[angel'o'sphere]

In France muslims are probably integrated the best in comparison with the rest of Europe.
No idea what you want to point out.

The problems in France are the school system and how it treats lower classes, regardless of religion.

A poor native frensh is not treated or integrated in any way better than a poor muslim imigrant.

I'm glad Slashdot posted this

[Anonymous Coward]

There are a lot of nerds here, and people who know about aviation and engineering.

It's not clear about the nature of the distress signal or beacon in the Mediterranean; it doesn't seem like that's being reported yet. My best guess is that it's a device that's activated upon hitting the water, but that's not certain. It doesn't sound like the pilots issued a distress call.

It's very odd to have a loss of communication at 37,000 feet without a distress call or telemetry indicating there was a problem. It takes a few minutes to crash from cruising altitude. Weather doesn't seem to be an issue. I don't think it can be ruled out that there was no telemetry or ACARS data; we just don't know yet.

It's really hard to have any indication of what happened. However, there are unconfirmed reports from mariners that they witnessed an explosion in the night sky. That's incredibly alarming, if it's true.

Re:I'm glad Slashdot posted this

[AK Marc]

At cruising altitude, a plane is hard to bring down. You generally need an air to air missile, or a bomb. Most Egyptian bombings happen leaving, not entering, because it's easier to breach security in Cairo than Paris. So if it is a bomb, it would be alarming that they were so successful. There would be almost nowhere that would be safe.

Re:I'm glad Slashdot posted this

[Anonymous Coward]

At cruising altitude, a plane is hard to bring down. You generally need an air to air missile, or a bomb. Most Egyptian bombings happen leaving, not entering, because it's easier to breach security in Cairo than Paris. So if it is a bomb, it would be alarming that they were so successful. There would be almost nowhere that would be safe.

Why do you assume it's easier to breach security in Cairo than in Paris?

How many times over the past few years have we seen reports of "rioting youths" in Paris....

Re:I'm glad Slashdot posted this

[AK Marc]

Why do you assume it's easier to breach security in Cairo than in Paris?

TFA mentioned the tight security at CDG. Did you read TFA?

How many times over the past few years have we seen reports of "rioting youths" in Paris....

How does "rioting youths" relate to airport security?

Re: I'm glad Slashdot posted this

[oobayly]

In the streets, not in the airport. Even the Brussels bombers had to blow themselves up in the check in area because it's was doubtful they'd have got though security.

Re: I'm glad Slashdot posted this

[dunkelfalke]

There are other possibilities: a suicide, thrust reverser suddenly opening, rudder torn off...

Re:I'm glad Slashdot posted this

[Anonymous Coward]

What in the living fuck does "reports of 'rioting youths'" have to do with airport security?

Re: I'm glad Slashdot posted this

[AK Marc]

As well as a blown engine damaging a wing, causing a fuel fire, or other structural fire.

The (non-pilot) man-caused failures are limited.

Re:I'm glad Slashdot posted this

[angel'o'sphere]

And what has that to do with breaching security at an airport?

Re:I'm glad Slashdot posted this

[Lumpy]

Almost everywhere is safe. there are tens of thousands of flights a day, one in a month is odds I'll take. It's better odds than me being killed by some moron in a SUV on my drive to work.

Re:I'm glad Slashdot posted this

[Anonymous Coward]

There is already nowhere that is safe. Please wake up from your daydream and reenter reality. The simplest way to take down a plane is a distraught pilot whose wife cheated on him or who was passed over for promotions one too many times. But we don't even need to limit ourselves to planes. The person driving next to you could have a tire blow out. Your house might have a gas leak. That spider hanging above your head when you wake up might give you a heart attack. Some idiot might drive through your house or knock down a tree onto it Tripping and landing on your head is enough to kill you. You might choke on the next thing you eat. There is nothing safe about the world. Stop worrying, especially about things that have a very tiny chance of effecting you, such as terrorism. You are far more likely to be raped today.

Re: I'm glad Slashdot posted this

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, it's generally very safe. The most recent reports from Greece are very alarming, however. As I understand it, Greek air traffic controllers attempted to radio the aircraft about 10 miles before it passed out of Greek airspace. They tried for about a minute and and half with no response from the aircraft. At that point, the aircraft then dropped off of radar, that is, they stopped getting a signal from the transponder. The data transmitted from the aircraft stops at 37,000 feet and doesn't show a descent. That indicates that the aircraft was in flight at cruise altitude for a period of time while the pilots were unresponsive by radio. That is very concerning about what may have happened to the aircraft.

Re:I'm glad Slashdot posted this

[stealth_finger]

At cruising altitude, a plane is hard to bring down. You generally need an air to air missile, or a bomb. Most Egyptian bombings happen leaving, not entering, because it's easier to breach security in Cairo than Paris. So if it is a bomb, it would be alarming that they were so successful. There would be almost nowhere that would be safe.

Regardless of the cause, increased airport security and fresh offensive on encryption in coming in 5..4..3..

Re: I'm glad Slashdot posted this

[stealth_finger]

There are other possibilities: a suicide, thrust reverser suddenly opening, rudder torn off...

Anything like that though and you'd think they'd be able to track the plane as it descended. The pilots would be able to get out an 'oh fuck' etc. From what I gather it just sorta disappeared from 40 odd thousand feet. I think we must follow logic and conclude...aliens.

Re:I'm glad Slashdot posted this

[Anonymous Coward]

The plane was on its 6th leg of the day, so if it were a bomb, it could have been loaded at any of 5 airports if it was by ground crew, or only in Paris if it was in baggage.In either case, it could be as dumb as you like.

Re:I'm glad Slashdot posted this

[stealth_finger]

I think exactly nothing?

Re: I'm glad Slashdot posted this

[rikkards]

My opinion that is the best place to do it and I have been saying that since Sept 12,2001. Highest concentration of victims is in security lines.

Re:I'm glad Slashdot posted this

[Maritz]

In that poster's enfeebled mind, everything.

Re:I'm glad Slashdot posted this

[Maritz]

I'm about to blow your mind. Security at airports is significantly higher than at magazine offices and rock concerts. Airport = lots of security people, scanners, sniffer dogs, things like that. Magazine office = not so much. Rock concert = gimme your ticket.

Get all that?

I should be amazed that your followed that asinine point with 'grow up' but I guess I'm too conditioned to slashdot's tone.

Re:I'm glad Slashdot posted this

[Maritz]

Oh dear. You're not on message. You need to be very afraid (terrorists) and concerned (children). You have to big-up the terrorists, exaggerate their capabilities, and greatly exaggerate the danger they pose.

Remember, terrorists use encryption. So don't do that, please.

Re:I'm glad Slashdot posted this

[sjames]

Unless it suffers catastrophic failure. There's no reason to assume a deliberate act at this point.

Re: I'm glad Slashdot posted this

[gtall]

More accurately, ancient aliens, they can travel time, y'know. Where's the greek guy with the electric hair to explain all this?

Re:I'm glad Slashdot posted this

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah well there's tight security everywhere since 2001. At least that's what governments want you to think. That still doesn't stop Ahmed smuggling stuff into the airport for his cousin Mohammed so they can blow up an airliner - especially when lots of Ahmeds work at the airport. Equal opportunity employer yo, so long as you ain't white.

Re:I'm glad Slashdot posted this

[sociocapitalist]

At cruising altitude, a plane is hard to bring down. You generally need an air to air missile, or a bomb. Most Egyptian bombings happen leaving, not entering, because it's easier to breach security in Cairo than Paris. So if it is a bomb, it would be alarming that they were so successful. There would be almost nowhere that would be safe.

The risk of this happening to any given plane is so low that to say that there is a real decrease in safety is alarmist.

Re: I'm glad Slashdot posted this

[Dunbal]

Or maybe because blowing yourself up in the check in area (where the line is) gets you the most bang for your buck, casualty wise. TSA take note.

Re: I'm glad Slashdot posted this

[stealth_finger]

We can all see his face.

Re: I'm glad Slashdot posted this

[oobayly]

It doesn't though. Look a the fatalities from recent suicide bombings in the West:
London: 52 (4 bombs in 4 locations)
Madrid: 191 (10 bombs in 4 locations)
Boston: 6 (2 bombs)
Paris: 130 (7 bombs in 3 locations)*
Brussels: 32 (3 bombs in two locations)

* Paris was quite different - it highlighted how infective bombs are compared to firearms:
Stade de France: 3 bombs, which killed 4 (including 3 bombers)
4 Restaurants: 39 people killed by automatic weapons & one bomber killed by his own bomb
Bataclan: Majority of fatalities caused by automatic weapons.

Bombs are for getting attention, not for causing mass causalties, unless you're also mid air at the time.

Re: I'm glad Slashdot posted this

[thegarbz]

How a suicide? Any attempt to drop the plane wouldn't result in it suddenly disappearing from the radar would it? Unless the pilot has a mid-air self destruct button in the cockpit?

Re:I'm glad Slashdot posted this

[howii]

The plane was on its fifth journey of the day and made a stop in Tunisia before flying to Paris. Source: http://www.theguardian.com/wor...

Re:I'm glad Slashdot posted this

[Anonymous Coward]

All of ISIS are bungling dogs that can barely walk and chew falafel at the same time.

Re:I'm glad Slashdot posted this

[kevingolding2001]

I'm about to blow your mind. Security at airports is significantly higher than at magazine offices and rock concerts.

I'm about to blow it right back!

http://www.smh.com.au/news/Nat...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/new...

And in a country currently overrun with Islamists, it's not hard to see this happening.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/paris...

Get all that?
Probably not because you seem to be an SJW moron.

If you're not prepared to grow up then at least creep back into your little safe-space and stop posting on the big bad internet.

Re:I'm glad Slashdot posted this

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh dear. You're not on message. You need to be very afraid (terrorists) and concerned (children). You have to big-up the terrorists, exaggerate their capabilities, and greatly exaggerate the danger they pose.

Remember, terrorists use encryption. So don't do that, please.

Coffee. Terrorists also drink coffee. So don't do that please.... ;)

Re: I'm glad Slashdot posted this

[ColdWetDog]

Aliens. I'm not saying it was aliens, but.

Re: I'm glad Slashdot posted this

[SScorpio]

That depends. Not if it was active radar. But for passive, just switching off the transponder would cause it to immediately drop off.

That could be intentional due to suicide. Or unintentional like some problem taking out the electrical systems.

Re: I'm glad Slashdot posted this

[Daetrin]

"Where's the greek guy with the electric hair to explain all this?"

You mean this guy?

Re: I'm glad Slashdot posted this

[Khyber]

"Bombs are for getting attention, not for causing mass causalties"

Hiroshima and Nagasaki would lie to speak with you...

Re:I'm glad Slashdot posted this

[twotacocombo]

Why do you assume it's easier to breach security in Cairo than in Paris?

How many times over the past few years have we seen reports of "rioting youths" in Paris....

CDG had very tight security when I went through there a few years ago. It's the only place I've seen them put a dog through the x-ray machine. It's the only place I've ever been where another man put his hands down my pants because the metal detector went off once. My g/f had her carry-on bag randomly searched by hand as we were going down the jet way to board the plane. It seemed a bit excessive, but at least you can't say they took a lax attitude towards security.

And what do rioting youths have to do with airport security? Rioters are usually dealing with poor living conditions or injustices, not the destruction of the country they live in.

Re: I'm glad Slashdot posted this

[Anonymous Coward]

We realize you think you have an IQ of 185, but you might want to learn a little bit about context before making stupid comments. You are a self professed research master so go look it up and get back to us when you realize the error of you ways.

Re: I'm glad Slashdot posted this

[Anonymous Coward]

A DJI Phantom drone flying back to China, a teenager on the beach blinding the pilots with a laser pointers, ... the possibilities are indeed endless.

Re: I'm glad Slashdot posted this

[wasteoid]

Giorgio Tsoukalos

Re: I'm glad Slashdot posted this

[Anonymous Coward]

You probably would think that there would be no reason to assume that the galloping sound you're hearing coming down the street is generated by the next horse in the herd that you've already observed galloping by.

People seem to have lost the ability to estimate probabilities in context. It must be tiring, living like that.

Re: I'm glad Slashdot posted this

[sjames]

More like I don't assume zebra when I hear galloping.

Could we at least have some shred of evidence before we push the panic button (that glass is getting expensive).

Re:I'm glad Slashdot posted this

[Anonymous Coward]

Why do you assume it's easier to breach security in Cairo than in Paris?

Are you serious? It's practically always the case that anything and everything is better in wealthier countries than poor countries. Rich countries can afford to buy better things (both public and private sectors) and renew what they have more frequently. That's just a fact of life and in this case better includes airport security systems. Furthermore, it's a lot easier to bribe people in poorer countries. Not just because their life circumstances are overall worse and the disparity between them and the wealthy West does lower the threshold for spilling some blood. In any place where more people die, life simply has less value. Terrorists have money and are willing to spend it and in a less functioning society it's easier to transfer money for illicit purposes than in a modern society with mechanisms to stop money laundering.

Finally, regardless of how many radical jihadists you fear that there are in France, you cannot seriously doubt that there are more of them in Egypt. It's sad but true that at the moment there's a strong correlation between the total number of Muslims and the number of radical Muslims.

Re:I'm glad Slashdot posted this

[AK Marc]

How is that relevant? Has anyone ever in the history of plane attacks (and there have been many) planted a bomb that was designed to go off on any flight but the next? If so, how many were successful? I've not heard of any, and Google didn't find any for me. Theoretically possible, but seems overly complicated, and thus irrelevant to the question of how this plane was brought down.

Re:I'm glad Slashdot posted this

[AK Marc]

No debris found indicates no catastrophe. A bomb at altitude spreads massive debris everywhere. A failure that has the plane low-speed crash in a failed attempt at a sea landing (or successful landing with a sinking after) will have no debris. There is no debris found so far, so the less debris found, the more likely it wasn't catastrophic at altitude. For violent catastrophic. All the engines falling off, losing primary backup and all systems would allow a controlled descent and little to no debris, but would be considered "catastrophic" by most.

The longer it goes without debris found, the more likely it's not an explosion at altitude.

Re:I'm glad Slashdot posted this

[Anonymous Coward]

Aircraft maintenance in Egypt may be dubious. Still, you'd expect some distress calls. Most fatigue-related failure modes aren't that abrupt. Engine fires, hydraulic controls that stop working, or a wing breaking. All deadly, but time enough to scream on the radio.

Re:I'm glad Slashdot posted this

[Anonymous Coward]

What if the bomber was on the ground crew, or a baggage handler? They tend to have much more lax day-to-day security than passengers.

Re:I'm glad Slashdot posted this

[Anonymous Coward]

I have no doubt the security for passengers and crew is tight. Why is no one asking questions about the workers that service the airplane? If you have worked there long enough, security is apt to just wave you on through without a close inspection of what you have. It would then be quite easy to plant a bomb in the cargo hold or other low access area of the plane while cleaning it between flights.

Re:I'm glad Slashdot posted this

[sjames]

It would almost have to be total electrical failure.

Re: I'm glad Slashdot posted this

[Anonymous Coward]

More accurately, ancient aliens, they can travel time, y'know. Where's the greek guy with the electric hair to explain all this?

Sasquatch got him.. He was educated in upstate New York by the way.

Re: I'm glad Slashdot posted this

[Gussington]

Or maybe because blowing yourself up in the check in area (where the line is) gets you the most bang for your buck, casualty wise. TSA take note.

TSA have taken note and will be around to arrest you shortly.

Re: I'm glad Slashdot posted this

[Gussington]

There are other possibilities: a suicide, thrust reverser suddenly opening, rudder torn off...

Anything like that though and you'd think they'd be able to track the plane as it descended. The pilots would be able to get out an 'oh fuck' etc. From what I gather it just sorta disappeared from 40 odd thousand feet. I think we must follow logic and conclude...aliens.

I've watched almost every episode of Air Crash Investigations. Planes falling out of the sky from mechanical error without pilot comms has happened a few times. (The Air France disappearance over the Atlantic a few of years ago comes to mind)

Re:I'm glad Slashdot posted this

[Gussington]

Almost everywhere is safe. there are tens of thousands of flights a day, one in a month is odds I'll take. It's better odds than me being killed by some moron in a SUV on my drive to work.

I think I read somewhere that 1 million people are in the air at any one time. Assuming you stick with non-Russian/African/Third World Airlines, out of hundreds of millions of man-days in the air each year, we lose only a few hundred to accidents. That's better odds than pretty much anything else you do including getting into and out of bed.

Re: I'm glad Slashdot posted this

[bungo]

No, that's sort of only right. There were physical constraints they had to deal with, with some extra security, but not the main bag checking security.

They blew up the check in area as that is where you drop off large bags, and they had large bombs in suitcases, not hand luggage size bags.

There are two exits from where they were towards the gates. The international gates has the passport control. You could physically take large bags through there, but you would get stopped by the police. The other exit is for European destinations, and there are large metal bollards made to stop the bag trolleys. It would have been very noticeable if they had tried to squeeze their bags past.

Only after both of these exit points, nearer to the walkways to the gates (and of course, past the shops) are the hand luggage scanners and the extra security. They could have never made it that far with their large suitcases.

The bombers set off their bombs at the best place they could, just like a car bomb could only be set off outside, and not inside a terminal building.

 

Re: I'm glad Slashdot posted this

[Agripa]

Or we are the aliens from the future.

Re:I'm glad Slashdot posted this

[dgatwood]

I don't think it can be ruled out that there was no telemetry or ACARS data; we just don't know yet.

Per CNN, here's the ACARS data:

21:13Z 341234 FWC2 :NO DATA FROM ADC1 (This is "02 ENG START" phase)
21:13Z 3100 QAR (also engine start phase)
21:13Z 313352 QAR MEDIA LOW(3TU) (also engine start phase)
21:14Z 231100 ICAO ADDRESS/HF2(3RE2) (also engine start phase)

Long period of no messages during otherwise normal flight

00:26Z 3044 ANTI ICE R WINDOW
00:26Z 561200 R SLIDING WINDOW SENSOR
00:26Z 2600 SMOKE LAVATORY SMOKE
00:27Z 2600 AVIONICS SMOKE
00:28Z 561100 R FIXED WINDOW SENSOR
00:29Z 2200 AUTO FLT FCU 2 FAULT
00:29Z 2700 F/CTL SEC 3 FAULT

Re:I'm glad Slashdot posted this

[dgatwood]

Not necessarily on a fly-by-wire bird. If a fire takes out power to enough of avionics, you might as well be in a flying bathtub.

Re: LOL

[Anonymous Coward]

Not funny. Indications are that there was an explosion in flight, but that'd unconfirmed. It's also not clear the cause of the explosiom, if true. That doesn't necessarily indicate an attack; TWA flight 800 exploded because of a mechanical failure. It's way too early to say shit like that.

Bomb or missile

[Viol8]

There are no other alternatives - modern planes don't just break up mid flight and if it had been another pilot suicide the radar track would have shown it descending whereas it simply vanished indicating catastrophic break up. Given the distance from the coast my money is on a bomb, either in the hold or on a terrorist on board.

Re:Bomb or missile

[Anonymous Coward]

It seems like a really weird bomb - if we assume middle eastern terrorists. They would be in Paris with a bomb, but choose to go through all the airport security and the risks associated with it just to blow up a plane filled with mostly Egyptians in Egyptian airspace? If their target was Egypt then there must be more effective targets on the ground in that country. If their target was westerners they would kill far more westerners simply opening fire with a gun in any other location in Paris.

Re:Bomb or missile

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a badge of honor.

Re:Bomb or missile

[niks42]

I guess it is possible that the bomb (assuming it is) was planted not in Paris, but in some other airport. This was its 5th flight of the day; maybe its pressure trigger failed to go off until this moment.

Re:Bomb or missile

[Anonymous Coward]

Or maybe the transponder was turned off. Most air traffic control can only track planes with transponders, the actual radars have been phased out as a cost-cutting measure.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_surveillance_radar#Primary_radar

Re: Bomb or missile

[Anonymous Coward]

Modern aircraft are incredibly complex machines and they are generally very safe. However, there are plenty of instances where a previously unknown design flaw or weakness has brought down a modern aircraft. While there are many possible explanations, including those that you mentioned, I think it's premature to a resume that it must be the result of an attack. Early reports and theories can be very misleading; there are plenty of people to this day who believe that TWA flight 800 was shot down by a missile. However, there's also a very reasonable hypothesis that involves mechanical failure arising from the age of that aircraft. I think your comment is premature.

Re:Bomb or missile

[Anonymous Coward]

We are talking about peoples that believe that 1) God is real. and 2) A violent schizophrenic paedophile is their model to follow. Let be real, putting a bomb while in Paris to blow it near Egypt wouldn't be the craziest thing these believes lead them to do. Allahu akbar.

Re:Bomb or missile

[niks42]

Just checked the flight data. It had flown in from Cairo a few hours earlier, before making the return journey.

There was seemingly no distress call. The rate of descent was swift.

Some reports of a feiry explosion.

My prayers are with their families. So sorry for your loss.

Re:Bomb or missile

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe someone will fly it into mecca.

Re: Bomb or missile

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not a Muslim, nor do I feel particularly warm and fuzzy feelings for them, but the while pedophile thing is entirely unfair. Given that Muhammad lived in a society where it was entirely normal to marry pre pubescent children. If anything, Muhammed set an extremely liberal precedent in this regard, in that he waited 3 years until she was 9 before consummating it, which was not standard custom of the time.

Re:Bomb or missile

[Anonymous Coward]

engineering and tech may be good but nothing is 100%.

at this point we simply don't know. let's wait and see.

Re:Bomb or missile

[Anonymous Coward]

Black box. There is no other alternative. Modern planes have them, and this one should be a lot easier to locate than that Indonesian one. Until we have flight data, you're just guessing and you're full of shit.

Re: Bomb or missile

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not a Muslim, nor do I feel particularly warm and fuzzy feelings for them, but the while pedophile thing is entirely unfair. Given that Muhammad lived in a society where it was entirely normal to marry pre pubescent children. If anything, Muhammed set an extremely liberal precedent in this regard, in that he waited 3 years until she was 9 before consummating it, which was not standard custom of the time.

Liberal precedent?

Why not just say it was mighty white of him?

Re: Bomb or missile

[Anonymous Coward]

So we're accepting historical context as a valid excuse now?

Are whites finally off the hook for owning slaves?

Thanks!

Re:Bomb or missile

[bloodhawk]

Planes have broken up or crashed midflight many times for reasons other than bombs or missiles. catastrophic structural, electrical or weather or just plain old pilot error (e.g. when the tail was torn off flight 587 a few years ago because the pilot was too aggressive in his corrections for turbulence)

Re:Bomb or missile

[Xest]

Greece is still in a persistent state of paranoia with Turkey over the whole Cyprus afair, this region WILL be covered by Greek radar.

Re:Bomb or missile

[Solandri]

Modern air traffic control "radar" just shows a weak blip where the plane is at. All the other info including altitude and the bright dot is added by the plane's transponder. That's what happened to MH370 - someone turned the transponder off and the plane "disappeared" from radar. Later review of the radar tapes showed a faint radar return signal where the plane was, which was missed by the controllers. Nobody saw the plane on radar at the time of the incident even though it flew around Indonesia.

So there are alternatives - electrical failure, fire starting in the avionics bay, intentional act by the pilot(s), random structural failure. And in fact, its disappearance towards the end of its flight makes a bomb less likely. Most bombs are designed to trigger when the air pressure drops below a certain amount, indicating the plane has reached altitude and thus an explosion will do maximum damage. So most bombs go off near the beginning of the flight, not towards the end like this one. (A suicide bomber OTOH is possible.)

Likewise, a missile is also unlikely. Very few missiles can reach 37,000 feet, and the location of the plane's disappearance would seem to eliminate all the land-based variants.

Re: Bomb or missile

[Anonymous Coward]

We are talking about peoples that believe that 1) God is real. and 2) A violent schizophrenic paedophile is their model to follow. Let be real, putting a bomb while in Paris to blow it near Egypt wouldn't be the craziest thing these believes lead them to do. Allahu akbar.

I'm not a Muslim, nor do I feel particularly warm and fuzzy feelings for them, but the while pedophile thing is entirely unfair. Given that Muhammad lived in a society where it was entirely normal to marry pre pubescent children. If anything, Muhammed set an extremely liberal precedent in this regard, in that he waited 3 years until she was 9 before consummating it, which was not standard custom of the time.

Child marriage was a pretty common custom in Europe and even in Colonial America until pretty recent times. The Catholic church tried for much of the middle ages to enforce a delay of consummation until a child bride was 16 years old but in their eagerness to seal a marriage pact for political and economic reasons the family of the partner in the marriage that had the most to gain by the marriage (usually that of the groom) often ignored this because one of the few ways to successfully obtain a divorce in that period was on the grounds that a marriage had not been consummated and it is hard to think of a better proof of non-consummation than a virgin. Margaret Beaufort the mother of Henry VII of England is a good example of this. She was 12 when the marriage was consummated, 13 when she gave birth to the future king Henry and the birth damaged her anatomy to the extent that she was unable to have children after that. It is a bad idea to throw stones if one lives in a glass house.

Re: Bomb or missile

[Anonymous Coward]

It's interesting that you say that. There are problems with active radar, part of which is that you need a lot of them for tracking. Over land, that might work provided you don't have beam blockage problems and aren't concerned about tracking targets at low altitude at distant ranges from the radar. The curvature of the Earth and the tilting of the beam limits the useful range of a radar. It would be difficult and expensive to deploy and maintain tracking radars over water. Radar also won't tell you what you're tracking, just that you're getting echoes from a location. Tracking is a challenge, especially if the targets can quickly change speed and direction with respect to the time it takes for successive scans. I believe something like multiple hypothesis tracking (MHT) is used for those purposes, but it is far from perfect. If your targets are well-behaved in not making abrupt changes in speed and direction and you don't have too many of them, it works fairly well. Generally you use the past history of a target's motion to estimate it's position in the current scan, and then search in a radius around the projected location for the best match. If you have multiple possible targets, generally you try some global optimization to find the best possible match for all tracks. Tracking aircraft might be much more difficult because they have the ability to change speed and direction somewhat rapidly. MHT can be computationally very expensive if you have a lot of targets and possible tracks to consider. Transponders indicate what it is you're tracking and reduces the need to employ imperfect algorithms like MHT.

Re: Bomb or missile

[phaethon2k]

Could have been catastrophic airframe failure. Most likely a bomb or shoot down I agree. We'll see soon.Very strange timing for a bomb. What would have been the trigger? Not altitude, way late in flight for time, If command detonated why then?

Re:Bomb or missile

[gtall]

Unless it was terror by airport security or airport employees.

And Daesh has been targeting Egypt because they figure all they need to do is ignite the Muslim Brotherhood sycophants and then Egypt will be theirs...to have and to hold...until Death takes them all.

Re:Bomb or missile

[multi io]

It seems like a really weird bomb - if we assume middle eastern terrorists. They would be in Paris with a bomb, but choose to go through all the airport security and the risks associated with it just to blow up a plane filled with mostly Egyptians in Egyptian airspace?

Yeah, why not? First, bringing down an airliner means a lot more publicity than just exploding a bomb in a restaurant somewhere. Second, a bomb that kills at most one or two people in a restaurant kills 100+ people when exploded in an airplane because most or all victims won't die from the blast but from, you know, flying in an airplane that's crashing.

Re: Bomb or missile

[stealth_finger]

I'm not a Muslim, nor do I feel particularly warm and fuzzy feelings for them, but the while pedophile thing is entirely unfair. Given that Muhammad lived in a society where it was entirely normal to marry pre pubescent children. If anything, Muhammed set an extremely liberal precedent in this regard, in that he waited 3 years until she was 9 before consummating it, which was not standard custom of the time.

None of that makes him not a pedo. Just because it was accepted then doesn't mean it should be accepted as a thing that wasn't bad now. He put off fucking a nine year old. How very noble....

Re: Bomb or missile

[stealth_finger]

Atheists were pedophiles for thousands of years and still are by far and large. More recently, Bill Clinton was part of an underage sex club. And sex slavery is still active in many muslim countries. Pedophilia is natural and to be promoted in liberal society. Look at Europe. They love it.

Ummm, as a European, nope. Very much nope. Where the fuck do you get that it's promoted? Because it most certainly is not.

Re:Bomb or missile

[stealth_finger]

It seems like a really weird bomb - if we assume middle eastern terrorists. They would be in Paris with a bomb, but choose to go through all the airport security and the risks associated with it just to blow up a plane filled with mostly Egyptians in Egyptian airspace?

Yeah, why not? First, bringing down an airliner means a lot more publicity than just exploding a bomb in a restaurant somewhere. Second, a bomb that kills at most one or two people in a restaurant kills 100+ people when exploded in an airplane because most or all victims won't die from the blast but from, you know, flying in an airplane that's crashing.

Yeah but if you're going to blow up a plane wouldn't you want to do it over land, preferably over a city or something (like the one it just left) where lots of people are likely to see, rather than over some bit of ocean miles and miles away from anything.

Re:Bomb or missile

[multi io]

It seems like a really weird bomb - if we assume middle eastern terrorists. They would be in Paris with a bomb, but choose to go through all the airport security and the risks associated with it just to blow up a plane filled with mostly Egyptians in Egyptian airspace?

Yeah, why not? First, bringing down an airliner means a lot more publicity than just exploding a bomb in a restaurant somewhere. Second, a bomb that kills at most one or two people in a restaurant kills 100+ people when exploded in an airplane because most or all victims won't die from the blast but from, you know, flying in an airplane that's crashing.

Yeah but if you're going to blow up a plane wouldn't you want to do it over land, preferably over a city or something (like the one it just left) where lots of people are likely to see, rather than over some bit of ocean miles and miles away from anything.

Yeah, if you have any control over where exactly the bomb goes off. You seem to be assuming that the terrorist was onboard the plane, on a suicide mission. Which seems pretty unlikely to me.

Re: Bomb or missile

[Maritz]

0/10 troll. Pop back to 4chan and try it there. It'll work a lot better with other mongs.

Re:Bomb or missile

[sjames]

Don't be confused by the term RADAR. They don't mean they stopped getting a return echo from active radar, they mean they stopped getting a transponder response. All that means for sure is that the transponder stopped working.

Re:Bomb or missile

[sjames]

Or a trigger set to go off when the apparent altitude reaches 8000 feet (standard cabin pressure).

Re: Bomb or missile

[cdrudge]

None of that makes him not a pedo. Just because it was accepted then doesn't mean it should be accepted as a thing that wasn't bad now. He put off fucking a nine year old. How very noble....

You're applying modern laws and beliefs to an ancient time in very different cultures, which is just silly.

In many ancient cultures, not just Muslim, children were "of age" once they reached puberty. Hebrews put the date even lower at a ridiculously low three years and a day. It wasn't until Caesar Augustus during the Roman Empire that the the age became 12. During Medieval times, the Catholic Church put the legal age for betrothal at 7 and consent to marriage at 12.

The average person didn't have modern 70 year lifespan. You were doing pretty good if you reached 30 and infant/child mortality was very high for much of human history. There were familial and society advantages if you started procreating as early as possible.

Re: Bomb or missile

[drinkypoo]

He put off fucking a nine year old. How very noble....

No, he didn't put off fucking a nine year old. He put off fucking a six year old, until she was nine.

Re: Bomb or missile

[Anonymous Coward]

You're applying modern laws and beliefs to an ancient time in very different cultures, which is just silly.

Nope, he's applying high moral standards to a guy who is supposed to be a prophet/messenger of God.
I never heard any stories about Jesus (i.e. another prophet) "consumating" a 9 year old.
Or do you claim that God approved of this in the old days?

Re:Bomb or missile

[fnj]

when the tail was torn off flight 587 a few years ago because the pilot was too aggressive in his corrections for turbulence

If you believe THAT half-witted explanation, you will fall for anything.

Re: Bomb or missile

[Anonymous Coward]

But he's not a product of the society.
He's a magical superhero that knows everything and is perfect and amazing. (Who just happens to like fucking little girls.)

Re: Bomb or missile

[Anonymous Coward]

But he was an all knowing god !!
We hold those to a slightly higher standard...

Re:Bomb or missile

[fnj]

Very few missiles can reach 37,000 feet

Utter nonsense. The Soviet SA-2 from the 1950s could reach 82,000 feet. The US Nike Ajax from the 1950s could reach 70,000 feet. Even the US mobile short-range Hawk of 1960 could reach 65,000 feet. The ubiquitous SA-6 certainly can reach 37,000 feet, and like the Hawk it is classed as a low-to-medium altitude defense weapon. About the only missiles that can't are MANPADS and short-range last-ditch low-altitude defense weapons like Sea Sparrow.

Hell, even the mainstay British WWII 3.7 inch AA gun could reach 45,000 feet (whether it could actually HIT anything at that altitude except by area saturation combined with good luck, is another matter).

Re:Bomb or missile

[acoustix]

There are no other alternatives - modern planes don't just break up mid flight

Sure they do. It's not often but it happens. Plans have lost critical parts during flight, like tails. Fuselages have failed like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aloha_Airlines_Flight_243

Re: Bomb or missile

[stealth_finger]

You're applying modern laws and beliefs to an ancient time in very different cultures, which is just silly.

Nope I'm trying to say you shouldn't fuck kids. Just because something used to be allowed or whatever doesn't make it right. I get that back then life expectancy wasn't what it is now and child birth was harder, child mortality was way higher etc. I can see the logic in 12+ old enough to bleed old enough to breed and all that, but there is literally no point in fucking a nine year old other than getting your rocks off. We as a species have gone through a lot since then and no modern civilization allows it or anything close unless they're deeply religious and insist on not changing anything ever. If it was good enough 2000 years ago it's good enough today. I'm sorry but no, it isn't.

Re: Bomb or missile

[pr0fessor]

I'm glad you brought up the average life expectancy, it's hard to understand a world where someone we would consider barely an adult would be near the end of their life but when your life is half over at 15 years and you have the responsibilities of someone middle aged everything is different.

Re:Bomb or missile

[stealth_finger]

It seems like a really weird bomb - if we assume middle eastern terrorists. They would be in Paris with a bomb, but choose to go through all the airport security and the risks associated with it just to blow up a plane filled with mostly Egyptians in Egyptian airspace?

Yeah, why not? First, bringing down an airliner means a lot more publicity than just exploding a bomb in a restaurant somewhere. Second, a bomb that kills at most one or two people in a restaurant kills 100+ people when exploded in an airplane because most or all victims won't die from the blast but from, you know, flying in an airplane that's crashing.

Yeah but if you're going to blow up a plane wouldn't you want to do it over land, preferably over a city or something (like the one it just left) where lots of people are likely to see, rather than over some bit of ocean miles and miles away from anything.

Yeah, if you have any control over where exactly the bomb goes off. You seem to be assuming that the terrorist was onboard the plane, on a suicide mission. Which seems pretty unlikely to me.

You must have some kind of control. Either a timer, you know the plane takes off at whatever time so set it to go off x minutes after that or a command detonated thing, it's not like that is unheard of both intentional and unwittingly. I don't think bombs are built to just explode randomly.

Re:Bomb or missile

[operagost]

Most people believe God is real. It's of no concern to you unless it causes you harm. Not imaginary butthurt, like the kind that keeps you awake at night thinking that people out there dare to think differently from you.

You might enjoy puffing yourself up with imagined superiority, but in reality your life is small and meaningless if you use it to ridicule others.

Re:Bomb or missile

[Jeremi]

If you believe THAT half-witted explanation, you will fall for anything.

The funny thing is, it's the conspiracy theorists who end up believing the wildest untruths. They're so busy trying to be discern something hidden that they fail to see the obvious.

Sometimes unlikely things happen -- that's why they're called "unlikely" and not "impossible". Not every bad thing is caused by the machinations of the Secret Evil Cabals.

Re:Bomb or missile

[hcs_$reboot]

Pilot suicidal mission (like Germanwings)

Re:Bomb or missile

[Applehu Akbar]

" They would be in Paris with a bomb, but choose to go through all the airport security and the risks associated with it just to blow up a plane filled with mostly Egyptians in Egyptian airspace?"

Jihadists hate Egypt right now because its military shut down the Muslim Brotherhood operation to take over the country, knowing that destruction of Pharaonic antiquities would deprive Egypt of its main source of income, tourism.

Re:Bomb or missile

[StikyPad]

There are no other alternatives - modern planes don't just break up mid flight

I don't think you've seen an Egypt Air plane before.

Re:Bomb or missile

[Anonymous Coward]

You might want to look up Aloha Airlines Flight 243 or United Airlines Flight 811, aircraft can most definitely "just break up" (both just got lucky). Its more rare the more modern the aircraft is but there are plenty of cases where metal fatigue has been shown to result/almost result in the loss of the aircraft.

Re: Bomb or missile

[SethJohnson]

I have to support Stealth Finger on this.

Additionally, if these moral judgements are to be dismissed as appropriate for then, but not now, then I think that dismissal should be applied across the entire moral judgements / teachings of the person. Having to apply this filter to everything Mohammed said leaves us in a situation where there is this giant spectrum of interpretation with many reasonable followers and different niche sects of lunatics who are justifying whatever they want to do by their interpretation of Islam.

Re:Bomb or missile

[Anonymous Coward]

Thank you for using my preferred name for them: Daesh

I'm sick of giving this misguided and dangerous group legitimacy by having the word state anywhere in the name.

Daesh...that's what everyone should use... Daesh

Re:Bomb or missile

[swb]

Wasn't that kind of the idea with AAA anyway? Timed fuses designed to saturate an air corridor with flak, and even some value in biasing to higher elevations as the flak would fall and at least represent some kind of hazard to aviation at lower altitudes?

Re:Bomb or missile

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you looked at any of those missiles? They're hauled around by specifically designed heavy vehicles/ships, they're he kinds of things only major militaries have. A naval vessel capable of carrying such a large missile would be kind of hard to hide out in the Mediterranean as both they and the missiles they fire generally show up pretty well on radar. So while the parent could have been a little more specific, a missile is highly unlikely to be the cause.

Re:Bomb or missile

[v1]

I genuinely have no clue as to how far they could track a plane on actual radar. They usually go with transponders that upload the plane's info to satellite regularly, and that works anywhere. But radar relies on how close a plane is to a radar facility and how high it's flying. (radar requires at least line-of-sight) You can lose transponder by an electrical fault, the pilot switching it OFF (by pulling a breaker, which IMHO they ought not to have access to) or by some catastrophic event leading to aircraft damage or destruction. Radar on the other hand usually can track debris to a degree after a plane is hit, and would be able to see it stop moving forward, breaking up, and falling. (think about just those engines, they've got a LOT more radar cross-section than a cesna)

So getting out the geometry, I was quite surprised to discover that 37,000 feet gives you a distance of line of sight to almost exactly one degree of the earth. And again marveling at the coincidences of math, that calculates to almost exactly 22 miles. Despite 37,000 feet being way high, it's very small compared to the radius of the earth, which is why it ends up being such a short distance. And this is of course under ideal circumstances of terrain and ground clutter.

To be hones, that's a lot less than I was expecting, and goes a long way to explaining why we don't have radar coverage over the ocean. You could theoretically plant a lot of radar stations on the ground, especially around airports and along high traffic routes, but really the transponders are the best bet in most cases, and the only option over water far off the coast. (I actually remember hearing operators quoting radar coverage out to only 22 miles off the coast during several crash investigations... and now I know why!)

Re:Bomb or missile

[aethelrick]

Most people believe God is real.

um... no. Around a third of people believe God (with a capital G) is real. About 85% of humans have some sort of religious belief, but most of these are not Christians.

Furthermore, religion does cause harm. It conditions people to blindly accept the instruction of others as divine will. This leads to all sorts of manipulation of the masses. It is used (and abused) by politicians and power mongers to get people to do what they are told to do. Rather than people thinking for themselves and doing what they know is right.

I for one would like to see people think before they act and take responsibility (in this life) for the good and bad things they do. It's lazy and irresponsible to blame ones behaviour on ones imaginary friend whether that behaviour is good or bad.

Re:Bomb or missile

[aethelrick]

Maybe the bomb was doing an unwanted Windows 10 update in the middle of the mission! This caused things to not work for a while and the bloody thing went poof in the wrong place?

Re: Bomb or missile

[Anonymous Coward]

Egypt killed or incarcerated most of the Muslim Brotherhood...

Re:Bomb or missile

[StikyPad]

1) A "pressure trigger," would defeat the basic engineering principle to keep it simple.
2) Devices that signal at a specific pressure are far more difficult to purchase or construct than those that signal at a specific time, which in turn are more difficult to implement than a human-controlled switch.
3) It's safe to assume that all of the luggage from the first leg had been removed by the time the plane was on its final leg of a round trip.
4) While it's hard to provide statistics, the idea that a device would work on the 5th (deliberate or accidental) attempt with no modifications seems far less likely than a catastrophic structural failure.

Speaking of pressure switches, it's long-since time that FDRs be equipped with floatation devices, and while a triggered floatation device would be good, even a passive device, such as a lighter-than-water device would be a good backup. It could be placed in a wing or tail-tip in a way that's designed to breakaway in the event of an impact, not interfere with control in the event of an unintentional separation, and wirelessly receive data from the master FDR.

On a related note, it's also probably time that manufacturers start installing transducers throughout the plane and including their data in flight data recorders in order to more easily identify or eliminate explosions as contributory factors.

While the cost of these systems would be substantial (especially for retrofitting), the cost relative to the overall purchase price, operations, and maintenance is a fractional percentage. A fare increase of a few cents per ticket would cover it in short order.

Re:Bomb or missile

[Anonymous Coward]

Utter nonsense. The Soviet SA-2 from the 1950s could reach 82,000 feet. The US Nike Ajax from the 1950s could reach 70,000 feet. Even the US mobile short-range Hawk of 1960 could reach 65,000 feet. The ubiquitous SA-6 certainly can reach 37,000 feet, and like the Hawk it is classed as a low-to-medium altitude defense weapon. About the only missiles that can't are MANPADS and short-range last-ditch low-altitude defense weapons like Sea Sparrow.

Hell, even the mainstay British WWII 3.7 inch AA gun could reach 45,000 feet (whether it could actually HIT anything at that altitude except by area saturation combined with good luck, is another matter).

Altitude must be taken into account with horizontal distance, as a SAM's hit probability is usually limited by the total flight path and the duration the seeker has power. Given loss occurred at ~20 miles offshore the total distance travelled is just short of 120,000 ft.

What would be more telling is the radar signature of an explosive event should create a debris cloud on radar. If you see such a cloud immediately before the plane began maneuvering, this implies a sudden event. If the maneuvers began before, it would be more likely something was happening in / to the plane (malfunction, but also possible fight with crew / passengers then internal explosion).

Neither case is conclusive but it does help suggest where to start looking for further clues.

Re:Bomb or missile

[StikyPad]

Most bombs are designed to trigger when the air pressure drops below a certain amount

Citation needed. I suspect most bombs are designed to trigger when someone activates a switch, followed by timer, cell phone, and physical impact (military bombs), in that order. Pressure triggers are almost entirely the domain of conspiracy theorists. While some fuel air bombs are designed to detonate N feet above their target, this is almost certainly accomplished through (crude) radar or sonar, as the ambiguity of terrain height and local atmospheric pressure would make pressure (altitude) triggers wholly unsuitable for the accuracy needed.

But perhaps the biggest reason pressure triggers aren't even worth discussing in these situations is that all cargo areas on transport-rated aircraft are pressurized.

Re:Bomb or missile

[HornWumpus]

Proximity fuse changed that.

Re:Bomb or missile

[Anonymous Coward]

Most people believe God is real. It's of no concern to you unless it causes you harm.

It does a lot of harm. Pretty much every single religion tells people to keep on procreate and ignore modern advances in medicine which limit the amount of children that are being born. Atheists usually have one or two children. People who believe in one or more Grand Sky Wizards have more than I have fingers and toes.

That's causing the planet to run out of resources. So yes, it causes me harm.

Re: Bomb or missile

[Anonymous Coward]

Child pornography was legal in the 70's... You could legally buy child pornography well into the 80's when it became illegal in the Netherlands.

Re:Bomb or missile

[nadaou]

1 degree latitude is 1.852 km/nautical mile (at. the surface) * 60 minutes /degree = about 111 km. not 22 miles.

Re:Bomb or missile

[Anonymous Coward]

Furthermore, religion does cause harm. It conditions people to blindly accept the instruction of others as divine will. This leads to all sorts of manipulation of the masses. It is used (and abused) by politicians and power mongers to get people to do what they are told to do. Rather than people thinking for themselves and doing what they know is right.

Sometimes, yes. In fact, all too frequently, yes. But sometimes it causes people to directly challenge the status quo. The examples that come immediately to my mind are the abolitionist movement and the civil rights movement led by Rev Martin Luther King. Both of these movements were motivated by specifically Christian world views. Perhaps your interpretation of history is somewhat skewed?

Re: Bomb or missile

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't know that the d in daesh stands for 'dawla', the arabic word for 'state', do you ?

Re:Bomb or missile

[operagost]

um... no. Around a third of people believe God (with a capital G) is real. About 85% of humans have some sort of religious belief, but most of these are not Christians.

Please excuse my capitalization-- I mean the generic "god". And you forgot about Jews, who also believe in capital-G God (although they tend to render it G_d).

Furthermore, religion does cause harm. It conditions people to blindly accept the instruction of others as divine will.

Not in all cases. You imply 100%, so I negate your statement by pointing out that some Christian sects, such as Amish, don't have career pastors and their members essentially take turns serving. The more "liberal" Mennonites appoint (and remove, if needed) their pastors, who don't even have to be Mennonites and thus can bring fresh insights to a community. These are just Christian sects; there are many other religions which are not centrally administered and/or do not have ordained clerics.

This leads to all sorts of manipulation of the masses. It is used (and abused) by politicians and power mongers to get people to do what they are told to do. Rather than people thinking for themselves and doing what they know is right.

Know is right, based on... what? It's the classic circular argument, isn't it?

Re: Bomb or missile

[Rakarra]

You're applying modern laws and beliefs to an ancient time in very different cultures, which is just silly.

It's not silly at all, it's just the notion that societies progress. That we get better. Certainly segments of both Islam and Christianity however are fixated with the notion that their prophet/divine figures were "perfect," and that if we do things differently, then we're the wrong ones. That's a dangerous, destructive ideology.

Re:Bomb or missile

[BostonPilot]

But perhaps the biggest reason pressure triggers aren't even worth discussing in these situations is that all cargo areas on transport-rated aircraft are pressurized.

Yeah, but not to sea level. You could set your bomb to go off at 7,000 feet and be pretty sure it'll detonate at cruise altitude.

You could use an iPhone with it's internal barometer to do the job...

Re:Bomb or missile

[Rakarra]

They would be in Paris with a bomb, but choose to go through all the airport security and the risks associated with it just to blow up a plane filled with mostly Egyptians in Egyptian airspace?

Jihadis do not see Egyptians as their allies. ISIS in particular hates liberal and moderate Muslims more than they hate Westerners and non-Muslims. A Muslim who doesn't agree with their caliphate is considered a traitor to Islam, and that's a far worse crime than never joining Islam in the first place.

Re:Bomb or missile

[Rakarra]

According to the timeline that CNN posted:

1:48am: Last voice contact with plane.
2:27am: Air traffic control attempts to contact plane, no response.
2:29am: Aircraft signal lost.

Re:Bomb or missile

[Anonymous Coward]

He is referring to missiles that are in possession of and operable by non-government actors (terrorist orgs). Yes, the major military powers have missiles that could take out an airliner at cruise altitude, including some installed on ships that could be on the Mediterranean, but this happened well out of range for anyone else. Suggesting that perhaps it was the US or the Russians that intentionally shot it down is just conspiracy theory. It's much more likely a bomb on a timer, deliberate action by a pilot, or an accident.

Re:Bomb or missile

[david_thornley]

Last I checked, something over half the world self-identified as Christian or Muslim, both of whom believe in God. Jews also believe in God, but not in significant numbers. There are other religions, who may have gods (the Hindus have lots of them), and you might consider the Buddha and the Tao as something like gods.

Re: Bomb or missile

[Anonymous Coward]

Are blacks off the hook for owning slaves?
Please, try to give a rational answer, it'll be cute I'm sure.

Re: Bomb or missile

[Anonymous Coward]

Go fuck yourself.

Re:Bomb or missile

[GCsoftware]

I've flown in tens of them - some of them are pretty old, sure, but they have a pretty decent fleet.

Security problems on the ground? Sure.

Unmaintained airframes - not so much.

Re:Bomb or missile

[Gussington]

There are no other alternatives - modern planes don't just break up mid flight

Air France Flight 447 just disappeared of the radar just like this. Cause was found (years later) to be mechanical failure (which led to incorrect crew reaction causing a stall)

Re:Bomb or missile

[aethelrick]

you forgot about Jews

As it happens, while I didn't mention the Jews I did happen to cast my eye over their estimated contribution to the overall percentage of people on earth that believe in "God" and their inclusion in the figure still did not increase the figure to a majority (or "most") of people as indicated in your claim.

Know is right,

You imply 100%

No I did not. Had I done so you would have known by my use of words like "all" or "always" or "without exception". I made no claim regarding the extent of the harm religion causes, only that it does indeed cause harm.

based on... what? It's the classic circular argument, isn't it?

Empathy, a trait observable in many creatures. We don't need an imaginary friend to tell us that killing another being is "bad" we _know_ this because we don't want to be killed ourselves. This is not a great mystery of the universe, this is not hard to understand, this is not something that requires a teacher. We can use the word "most" to describe how many people know right from wrong.

Re: Bomb or missile

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm white and I don't consider myself "on the hook" for what other white people have done. Blaming me for what they did is just as racist as anything else.

Re: Bomb or missile

[DutchUncle]

Hebrews put the date even lower at a ridiculously low three years and a day.

Umm, no, that's the age for betrothal - a binding agreement to marry at a later time. "Of age" for marriage (and sex) was 12, which is a more typical age for puberty.

Re:Bomb or missile

[DutchUncle]

Why unlikely? They do suicide missions. OTOH use a timer, install the bomb at one of the previous stops, and it blows on its own. I'm sure that bad guys know all of the airline mechanics and know exactly where their families live.

Re:Bomb or missile

[dgatwood]

To put that in perspective, assuming the clocks are in sync:

11:48Z last voice contact
00:26Z 3044 ANTI ICE R WINDOW
00:26Z 561200 R SLIDING WINDOW SENSOR
00:26Z 2600 SMOKE LAVATORY SMOKE
00:27Z 2600 AVIONICS SMOKE
00:27Z ATC attempts to contact plane. Avionics is already on fire, pilots already have plane diving towards emergency water landing
00:28Z 561100 R FIXED WINDOW SENSOR
00:29Z 2200 AUTO FLT FCU 2 FAULT
00:29Z 2700 F/CTL SEC 3 FAULT
Aircraft lost from passive radar as avionics succumbs to fire and VHF radio/transponders stop transmitting

From what I see here, it looks like there was a fire in the cockpit, with the first failure involving whatever circuit powers the cockpit window defroster. This is far more likely to have been an electrical malfunction than terrorism, given that the aircraft continued flying for at least three full minutes (i.e. not a mid-air breakup) and that the failures began in or around the cockpit.

Of course, ACARS can reorder messages based on priority, so if it thinks that the cockpit window is more important than the smoke detector in the lavatory detecting smoke, it might have sent the messages out of order. If so, this could have been caused by a fire or explosion in the lavatory that blew out the side of the plane and started a major fire in avionics.

On the other hand, I'd expect an explosion to not result in an ongoing fire under those conditions. If an explosion actually resulted in the sliding cockpit window shattering, there should be so much wind that a fire would be unsustainable, which means avionics shouldn't have burned. That suggests a much slower progression of fire, which is why I have my doubts about terrorism being involved in any way.

Of course, I read an comment from a pilot that this could be caused by breakers in the right wing tripping, in which case all bets are off.

Either way, IANAPilot, and IANAA(viation)E(ngineer), so take that with a grain of salt. It's just a gut feeling.

Re:Bomb or missile

[v1]

not sure how I got that math off but I was in a hurry. I took another look at it and realized the solution was much easier and didn't even require COS. The point where you have line of sight to (tangent with surface of the earth) and from that point to the center of the earth form two lines of a right triangle, with the third being the hypotenuse, which is the distance of the airplane from the center of the earth. (earth radius + airplane height)

WIth the radius of the earth being 3959 miles, and 37,000 ft (at 5280 ft/mile) is 7.007 (lets call it 7) miles, the hypotenuse is 3966. sqrt(3966^2-3959^2) = 236 miles for airplane-to-tangent with earth. (LoS) I guess I was way off with 22!

Note: you can't just measure miles at the surface, as that's not flat, and is a (slightly) lower radius of circule than the elevation of the airplane anyway. My method is looking for straightline distance, since we're talking radio waves, from an airplane at 37k feet, to the earth's surface, along a line from the plane, tangent to the eartth.

As you start getting closer to the tangent point of the line, the distance starts getting very sensitive to height, and the angle of a tangent to a circle of course starts getting very small, so even ocean waves probably eat into it a substantial amount, and certainly to mountains in the mid to far-field.

Re:Bomb or missile

[Nehmo]

An EgyptAir employee loaded the timed-detonation bomb or incendiary device as a food item at Charles de Gaulle Airport, Paris, the last stop the plane made. The same group responsible for the previous EgyptAir plane from Russia did the job. In that one, they also didn't claim responsibility for some time. They said they did it with a soda can bomb. I would look at whoever loaded the soda cans.

Re:Bomb or missile

[Nehmo]

So most bombs go off near the beginning of the flight, not towards the end like this one. (A suicide bomber OTOH is possible.) ...

I don't see any strong reason to set the timer to detonate at the beginning of a flight.

Re: LOL

[Anonymous Coward]

If your thoughts and prayers were with the family, if your post was sincere, the subject wouldn't be "LOL." You're trolling.

Re: LOL

[Anonymous Coward]

What do you have against the Love Of Lord (LOL)?

Re: LOL

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you know the meaning of
- LOL
- racism
- apology?

Religion of Peace strikes again no doubt....

[Anonymous Coward]

Looks like someone managed to get something on the plane.

I wonder how much "Allah Akbar"ing was going on ?

Re:Religion of Peace strikes again no doubt....

[Black Parrot]

Looks like someone managed to get something on the plane.

I wonder how much "Allah Akbar"ing was going on ?

Given recent events, terrorism does in fact seem like the most likely hypothesis.

However, regarding your slur of the "Religion of Peace"... who do you blame for the IRA's terrorism? Christians? Catholics? Irish Catholics? Or just the IRA and their supporters?

Re:Religion of Peace strikes again no doubt....

[drinkypoo]

who do you blame for the IRA's terrorism?

The UK. Take away all "legitimate" means of response and what is left?

Re:Religion of Peace strikes again no doubt....

[Anonymous Coward]

Except the IRA had legitimate means of response, they were enfranchised to vote as much as anyone, they just couldn't accept being on the losing side of democracy and so decided that violence was the answer.

No one was stopping them moving to Ireland if that's what they really wanted, but let's be honest, if you knew anything about the Ireland conflicts you'd know it was entirely about settling Catholic vs. Protestant scores, and no amount of giving them a "legitimate" response whatever that might be if it's not the democratic vote would be able to change that short of ethnically cleansing one side or the other away. This is why there were terrorist groups on both sides including those that wanted to stay with the UK and hence had everything they wanted - because it wasn't about being enfranchised, but about a will to ethnically cleanse the region of each other. You've got to realise that religion in NI is such a big deal that to this day it's so far backwards compared to the rest of the UK (and much of the West in general) that abortion still isn't legal even for victims of rape. That's the kind of zealotry you're talking about in NI.

Had the UK handed Northern Ireland to Ireland you think it would've all calmed down and stopped? Really? If so you know jack about the ethnic tensions in NI, which for what it's worth, are still going on to this very day.

Whether the UK had walked away or stayed involved the Catholic and Protestant gangs would've carried on and on regardless. The UK certainly made mistakes and could've handled it better without a doubt, but it most certainly can't be blamed for the fundamental underlying problem itself.

Re:Religion of Peace strikes again no doubt....

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't play into the hands of the terrorists !!!
There is no longer any "legitimate" way to deal with America and it's 1%. Are you advocating US domestic based terrorism to respond to that problem as well?

Re:Religion of Peace strikes again no doubt....

[Anonymous Coward]

Looks like someone managed to get something on the plane.

I wonder how much "Allah Akbar"ing was going on ?

This we know : none.
For otherwise the terrorist organization would have declared itself immediately, in order to demonstrate they were the ones in charge.
(A behavior rather trivially know, like, in all terrorist acts.)
So, well, no.
The only thing triggered here is a kind of filter to locate racist posters -like you.

Re:Religion of Peace strikes again no doubt....

[Anonymous Coward]

Bingo, with extra points for neatly cutting away the traditional distractions and getting right down to the core human nature element. -PCP

Re: Religion of Peace strikes again no doubt....

[Anonymous Coward]

ira vs muslim terrorists: the ira didnt act in the name of their feligion. the muslim terrorists do.

thank you for playing though!

Re:Religion of Peace strikes again no doubt....

[stealth_finger]

You've got to realise that religion in NI is such a big deal that to this day it's so far backwards compared to the rest of the UK (and much of the West in general) that abortion still isn't legal even for victims of rape. That's the kind of zealotry you're talking about in NI.

As an Englishman who lives in Northern Ireland this is true, to the point that on the equal opportunities sections of job application forms (or any kind of form that has equal ops attached really) the religion section literally reads catholic, protestant, other (literally is being used correctly here they are actually the only 3 options, I don't feel I can stress that enough). That's all they care about and it does pervade everything. The local elections recently are a fine example. For the most part people vote by their religion, it really is shocking how backwards they are in that respect. Every year in July when the orange men do their (intentionally antagonistic) marches half the businesses in town close down for a few days because it's just not worth the hassle. The funny part is when you see the dole scum who are all pro republic (they'd never dream of moving over the border though, oh no) living of benefits while saying they want to be united Ireland without realising in Ireland they'd get jack shit and might have to get off their big fat self righteous arses and get a fucking job which is the scariest thought of all to them! They even still have vigilante IRA wannabe gangs going around knee capping drug dealers and a good section of the people think it's a good thing! Fucking savages some of them.

Sorry, went off on a bit of a tangent there, rant over.

Re:Religion of Peace strikes again no doubt....

[sexconker]

Looks like someone managed to get something on the plane.

I wonder how much "Allah Akbar"ing was going on ?

Given recent events, terrorism does in fact seem like the most likely hypothesis.

However, regarding your slur of the "Religion of Peace"... who do you blame for the IRA's terrorism? Christians? Catholics? Irish Catholics? Or just the IRA and their supporters?

Why blame the IRA? Any sane individual would support their goal. If you're mad about the violence, which wasn't their goal, note that they didn't like it either - they called ahead to get people out. And it was the Brits that left them with no option to try to achieve their goal other than violence.

Who do you blame for the Yankee's terrorism against their King and Country?

Re:Religion of Peace strikes again no doubt....

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually they are taking responsibility for the bombing. Maybe the reporting of such is being delayed by Western media so as not to appear "racist"?

Re:Religion of Peace strikes again no doubt....

[GCsoftware]

Because there are no loyalist on the dole, right? :P

(It's a joke, relax)

Re:Religion of Peace strikes again no doubt....

[GCsoftware]

This. Exactly this. The IRA even had back-channels with the UKGOV to decide on code words that would be used to indicate an actual real bomb threat instead of a random nutcase calling Downing Street and saying something in Whitehall will blow up in 30 mins, get your people out.

Re:Religion of Peace strikes again no doubt....

[Nehmo]

...who do you blame for the IRA's terrorism?

Religion plays a large role.

"modern planes don't just break up mid flight"

[aepervius]

While it is the most probable for a mid air disintegration, the reality is that there were airplane which disintegrated fully or partially lost parts mid air. See airplane china lost in Taiwan in 2002. Usually those are due to metal fatigue or improper repair.

Re:"modern planes don't just break up mid flight"

[Anonymous Coward]

Although the incident triggered Syrian involvement, Egyptian investigators never did find explosive residue associated with the Russian plane that had fractured and come down. Most of the international "analysis" was based more on politically driven thought than on science. There was severe flooding in Israel and a cyclone to the south in Yemen (?) around that time. The same sort of short-term conditions that feed thunderstorms and some extreme weather can also create potent plane-hostile wind-shear even in clear air.
Certain solar wind conditions are used to help forecast thunderstorms. Solar filament eruptions can produce briefer and narrower solar wind shocks. If any Earth effects were seen from the eruption of May 15th, the typical 4 day transit puts arrival at about the time of the flight 804 event.
Perhaps the data logging in planes should be extended to record such things as atmospheric charge gradient details. Such data might also provide some slightly improved direct local detection of enterance into possibly dangerous regions.

These solar-related comments are not intended to refute the importance of shifts in atmospheric gas composition.

Re:"modern planes don't just break up mid flight"

[some old guy]

You shouldn't have posted this as AC. You deserve credit for one of the more intelligent comments in this thread.

Re:"modern planes don't just break up mid flight"

[mrchaotica]

Perhaps the data logging in planes should be extended to record such things as atmospheric charge gradient details. Such data might also provide some slightly improved direct local detection of enterance into possibly dangerous regions.

Neat idea. Turning commercial flights into roving weather stations would probably be good for the progress of atmospheric science, too.

Re:"modern planes don't just break up mid flight"

[Frosty Piss]

While it is the most probable for a mid air disintegration, the reality is that there were airplane which disintegrated fully or partially lost parts mid air.

One or two have gone down due to cargo doors that were improperly secured, but not a hour into the flight at 35,000 feet. As to mid air disintegration, no modern jet has done so.

Re:"modern planes don't just break up mid flight"

[ColdWetDog]

Been there, done that.

There is even some company trying to make money by attaching their own weather stations to commercial planes. Too lazy to look it up.

Re:"modern planes don't just break up mid flight"

[Anonymous Coward]

There is even some company trying to make money by attaching their own weather stations to commercial planes. Too lazy to look it up.

They've already gone bankrupt. The first instrument they attached were anemometers...to the top of the fuselage. They blew their credibility when they reported 550+ MPH hurricanes all over the world.

Re: LOL

[Anonymous Coward]

How is saying you are not funny racist?

How are you not a tranparently Western racist scumbag pretending to be muslim?

Well...

[EmeraldBot]

I wouldn't be too quick to put this is a terrorist attack. As someone else mentioned, it's much easier for them to bomb it at the airport, and terrorists crave media coverage - why would they blow it up in the middle of nowhere, especially if it's going to take a while to find? They could just be the stupid kind, but my bet would be on something else, perhaps an electrical failure of some sort. Them not having telemetric data is very very odd, most planes come loaded with it, and that furthers the case of this not being a bomb - I doubt a bomb could take out every single part of the aircraft, or rather, I don't think they could have snuck an explosive powerful enough to do that onboard. I would wait until we have more data to draw any conclusions.

Re: Well...

[Anonymous Coward]

Precedent suggests otherwise. The bombing of Metrojet flight 9268 took place over the sparsely populated Sinai Peninsula. The Lockerbie bombing, Pan Am flight 103 was originally intended to take place over water so no wreckage would ever be found. That didn't happen because of delays and a change in route because of the weather.

Re:Well...

[The-Ixian]

Them not having telemetric data is very very odd

If only they were running Windows 10...

Re:Well...

[Anonymous Coward]

I wouldn't be too quick to put this is a terrorist attack. As someone else mentioned, it's much easier for them to bomb it at the airport, and terrorists crave media coverage - why would they blow it up in the middle of nowhere, especially if it's going to take a while to find? They could just be the stupid kind,

Exactly. Air pressure switches have been mentioned - but that may be too high-tech for some. Perhaps they used a simple timer. Then, they had to set the timer so they'd be sure the plane was in the air when it went off. The European airspace is 'full', so delayed flights is very common. So they set the timer to just before the decent to Egypt (if the plane don't get delayed) in order to maximize the chance of an explosion in-air even if it gets delayed.

Re:Well...

[DutchUncle]

You don't need a bomb big enough to take out "every single part". You need a bomb placed near the outer skin (and preferably near one of the main structural ribs) to blow a hole big enough for the 500+ MPH airflow to do the rest of the work of making the plane unstable and maybe ripping it apart. The classic movie placement is at the connection of a wing, which is more reinforced. If you can get more places than the cargo hold, there are locations closer to fuel tanks and lines, but that requires more knowledge of the plane and possibly a more sophisticated explosive.

Re: LOL

[Sasayaki]

Even if you're 100% not trolling (heh), it's still incredibly insensitive. Would you accept an Atheist posting something like, "Well, they're just hunks of meat and organs now, I don't get why we're spending so much money and effort worrying about something we can't change. They're dead, can't bring 'em back!".

Everyone of every religious creed (and none at all) can be total jerks. Would it be too much to ask to just at least pretend to be sympathetic?

Here come dat boi

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh shit, what up!?!

Re: LOL

[EmeraldBot]

I only said that God is great. My thought and pray are with the victims and their family. Allahu akbar.

Why are you so racist? ...assuming it meant a terrorist battle cry. You disgust me. Doing Islam apology so early without even knowing the facts.

You know damn well what you're insinuating, and you've been doing it all over this thread. It shows an extreme lack of taste or respect on your part, and what's even more sad is that you apparently have nothing better to do. You're the same kind of person that would think it funny to run around wearing swastikas, but if you'd ever survived any of these conflicts (which you almost certainly wouldn't), it wouldn't be nearly so funny. You're probably among the younger population of this world, and you should be very very thankful you never had to live through something like WWII or the Vietnam War, or the wars in the Middle East. While I don't like saying the gift of life is a waste, you have absolutely no appreciation for how lucky you are that you can piss around and post shit like this all day, without living in fear that this is the last day you're alive.

It's amazing

[krkhan]

.. how we have sent a rocket out of solar system, are planning to transport (and keep track of) bunch of nanobots to Alpha Centauri, but somehow keep losing 40 ton metal leviathans on pansy little Earth.

Re: It's amazing

[Anonymous Coward]

I think your criticism is probably more valid of MH370. Maybe it's just me, but I've thought the plot of the show Lost seems a lot like what we know about MH370; a flight that goes off course over the ocean for several hours, then crashes and isn't found.

It is possible to get real-time telemetry from aircraft, but it costs money. Some airlines that aren't willing to pay for that, or they're configured to report data less frequently.

It's also remarkable to me telemetry isn't reported by a system that had backup power and that it's possible to disable the transponder and telemetry reporting. It's also a failure that electronic locator beacons don't split away and float on impact.

Re:It's amazing

[Anonymous Coward]

we have sent a rocket out of solar system

Government.

but somehow keep losing 40 ton metal leviathans on pansy little Earth.

Private companies.

Any questions?

Re:It's amazing

[Anonymous Coward]

SLS and Falcon9?

Re:It's amazing

[DNS-and-BIND]

What on Earth are you blathering about? Who modded you Insightful? We didn't "lose" the aircraft, ADS-B was functioning, here's the full playback of its flight, including where it is right now. Blame our idiotic media for using words like "disappeared" instead of more precise verbiage. The media really are stupid, the journalists that work for them really don't know anything. The US President's staff has been playing them like a fiddle.

He freely admits that he did so by manipulating a select group of reporters that he and staff think are idiots and molded them into his own personal echo chamber. "They literally know nothing."

Re:It's amazing

[krkhan]

Who modded you Insightful?

I swear I have no idea. It's a mystery on par with the disappearing jetcrafts.

here's the full playback of its flight, including where it is right now.

I dutifully kept that link open for an hour but the plane doesn't seem to be moving.

Re:It's amazing

[Jumunquo]

And containing transponders with limited range that only have 30-day battery life.

Re:It's amazing

[Anonymous Coward]

"The media really are stupid, the journalists that work for them really don't know anything."

And the people that parrot it like krkhan are even dumber than the media. Honestly it seems that either the internet attracts the retards like him, or it's creating them.

Re:It's amazing

[Nidi62]

.. how we have sent a rocket out of solar system, are planning to transport (and keep track of) bunch of nanobots to Alpha Centauri, but somehow keep losing 40 ton metal leviathans on pansy little Earth.

From January 2015-Feb 2016, US carriers alone flew a combined 8,389,595 (passenger) miles with an airborne time of 19,506,911 hours. Please note that these numbers do not include cargo flights. The latest data from the DOT shows 6,676 aircraft in use by air carriers in 2014. General aviation for that same year is 204,408 aircraft in service. And these are just US numbers. With numbers like that I'm impressed their aren't more incidents than there are. Shows how good our engineering really is.

Re:It's amazing

[Anonymous Coward]

30 days sounds like a long time for something that is constantly transmitting a signal so it can be located.

Re:It's amazing

[Anonymous Coward]

.. how we have sent a rocket out of solar system, are planning to transport (and keep track of) bunch of nanobots to Alpha Centauri, but somehow keep losing 40 ton metal leviathans on pansy little Earth.

Given that NASA's lost two shuttles, the Russians have had rockets blow up on them, what's "amazing"?

Especially since NASA and the Russians don't allow crazies stuck in the Dark Ages who are willing to die to impose their religion to travel on their rockets and shuttles....

Re:It's amazing

[110010001000]

We sent a rocket out of the Solar System? When? And nanobot talk is just space nutter fantasy. We will never reach another star with a man made object.

Re:It's amazing

[Anonymous Coward]

Because murderous morons with a 7th century ideology blew it up.

Re:It's amazing

[bloodhawk]

there are around 50 million flights per year. If you think we can build rockets and spacecraft that have a failure rate that is better than the current aircraft failure rate even with the billions spent on each flight you have a fuck load more confidence in them then I do.

Re:It's amazing

[Anonymous Coward]

When did a Falcon9 send something outside of the solar system? I have missed this news.

Re:It's amazing

[Anonymous Coward]

Embedding transponders with unlimited range and unlimited battery time has a negative impact on the mass budget of the plane.

Re:It's amazing

[fnj]

From January 2015-Feb 2016, US carriers alone flew a combined 8,389,595 (passenger) miles with an airborne time of 19,506,911 hours.

Sorry, those numbers don't even come close to making any sense whatever. Not even if you really meant aircraft-miles rather than passenger-miles. Those figures would make the average speed 0.43 mph. Could you have meant 8.3 BILLION miles?

Re:It's amazing

[mrchaotica]

We sent a rocket out of the Solar System? When?

Pioneer 10, Pioneer 11, Voyager 1 and Voyager 2. Maybe some Soviet ones too, for all I know.

Re: It's amazing

[bluefoxlucid]

Well maybe if you were willing to pay $1,400 one-way instead of $850 round-trip to Japan you could ride in a plane with real-time telemetry and all the other expensive bells and whistles.

Re:It's amazing

[stealth_finger]

And containing transponders with limited range that only have 30-day battery life.

And don't float.

Re:It's amazing

[Nidi62]

From January 2015-Feb 2016, US carriers alone flew a combined 8,389,595 (passenger) miles with an airborne time of 19,506,911 hours.

Sorry, those numbers don't even come close to making any sense whatever. Not even if you really meant aircraft-miles rather than passenger-miles. Those figures would make the average speed 0.43 mph. Could you have meant 8.3 BILLION miles?

You're right, I missed the (000) in the database. So it is actually 8,389,595,000 passenger miles flown. My point still stands.

Re:It's amazing

[Anonymous Coward]

That link doesn't say where it is right now. The recording stops at 20:29 local time with the plane going 534 kts at 36,975 ft. Who modded you Informative?

Re:It's amazing

[nrjyzerbuny]

That would probably be about the time it ceased to be a plane.

Re:It's amazing

[Anonymous Coward]

Not necessarily. MH370 disappeared from flightradar24 over the South China Sea and the plane wasn't found there. Until we know what happened, "disappeared" is the best word the media can use right now. DNS-and-BIND clumsily argued the contrary as a pretext to post his unrelated echo chamber story.

Re:It's amazing

[ColdWetDog]

According to the site, it's only going 2kts, so you're going to have to look at it for quite some time at that level of resolution.....

Re:It's amazing

[Rob Riggs]

I don't think any of the plane's passengers care how long it takes to find the plane at this point. I know I wouldn't pay for a higher priced ticket just because they claim they will find the wreckage faster if the plane is blown up by terrorists.

Re:It's amazing

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't assume that flightaware or flightradar24 have accurate position data. Not to mention that in this case the two sites show different data so at least one must be wrong. Like both state themselves, their systems extrapolate when data isn't available and that is often the case since they rely on volunteers having receivers to provide it.

Re:It's amazing

[Anonymous Coward]

They are also down in the equipment bay under the cockpit; it's highly unlikely they could "pop out" to float to the top in the event of a crash.

Re:Bomb or missile - or Airbus Murderbus

[Anonymous Coward]

You must be fun at parties.

Re: LOL

[Anonymous Coward]

- LOL

Either Land O' Lakes (awesome butter, yo) or League of Legends (meh).

- racism

That thing that happens when you don't hire enough minorities in spite of applicants being completely unqualified for the positions at hand.

- apology?

I'm sorry you're a douche. :(

Re: Bomb or missile - or Airbus Murderbus

[oobayly]

Christ, do you have that rant saved, ready to use? Did an Airbus aircraft run over your pet goldfish?

Re: LOL

[Anonymous Coward]

You all think Islam is a race. Funny.

the safest part of the journey & Charley Hebdo

[Max_W]

the plane vanished while cruising -- the safest part of the journey

Unless a stray air-to-air rocket got it into his infrared sensor.

I hope Charley Hebdo will not start to publish cynical caricatures about an air accident again.

Terrorism is the most likely culprit

[Trachman]

Planes just do not disappear suddenly.

If there is any kind of mechanical issue, or a hint of it, pilots are trained to report immediately to the ground. All we have at this time is a news report about an automated distress signal, which is released by the plain automatically.

Remember Lockerby: it took years to put all the evidence, and it disintegrated over the ground. Flight 804 has disappeared in the middle of Mediterranean sea, investigation will be extremely difficult and costly. It will take weeks to get the flight recorders and it will take months to gather some plane parts. Marine environment is very unfriendly to the forensic evidence.

Because of the uncertainty, it will have a chilling effect to Egypt tourism (second airplane crash within 12 month), and, possibly, even longer TSA lines in USA. People will now need arrive to the airport not 2 but 3 hours.

This tragedy may also add several percent points to Mr. Trump's popularity, and could possibly win him elections.

Re:Terrorism is the most likely culprit

[Anonymous Coward]

It didn't disappear suddenly that is just media BS. It made a sharp turn left then a 360 to the right during a rapid decent, the disappearing part was it hitting the water. in such a catastrophic situation I doubt a pilots first concern would be making contact, which is pretty well been the case for other rapid catastrophic failures as well. looks like either physical intervention by someone onboard or mechanical failures of critical flight systems.

Re:Terrorism is the most likely culprit

[Zontar_Thing_From_Ve]

Because of the uncertainty, it will have a chilling effect to Egypt tourism (second airplane crash within 12 month), and, possibly, even longer TSA lines in USA. People will now need arrive to the airport not 2 but 3 hours.

Unlikely. People are both stupid and cheap in general. Malaysia Air should probably be out of business permanently after being too stupid to stay out of hostile air space in Ukraine and having a plane simply disappear with no explanation to date yet they remain in business. If the price is cheap enough, people will still want to go there. Based on this and your next comment, I assume you don't live in the USA. This is unlikely to have any impact on TSA lines. After all, it wasn't a USA bound or USA originating flight.

This tragedy may also add several percent points to Mr. Trump's popularity, and could possibly win him elections.

Unlikely too. Americans have very short memories. By the end of June, probably nobody will be talking much about this. Americans don't travel that much overseas so this will be considered "somebody else's problem".

Re:Terrorism is the most likely culprit

[T.E.D.]

This tragedy may also add several percent points to Mr. Trump's popularity, and could possibly win him elections.

Whereopon he will promptly engage in all sorts of actions and statements that will be a tremendous boon to Islamist recruiting.

Extremists from both sides may talk a lot of smack at each other, but they are each other's best allies. Look at Asad and ISIS. Neither would be in power today without the other.

Re:Terrorism is the most likely culprit

[Gussington]

Planes just do not disappear suddenly.

Like Air France Flight 447 you mean?

Where would you rather spend the money?

[monkeyxpress]

If you have an airplane safety budget, would you rather spend it on preventative safety measures, or speeding up the location of the very small number of planes that crash and aren't found quickly? Other than a few notable exceptions (AF447, MH370 being the main ones) we generally find planes within an adequate amount of time, especially considering that it typically takes months to conclusively determine the cause of an incident and make recommendations that might improve safety.

This plane has probably been found already with divers and black box pinger locators en-route. The real issue for us is that the authorities are more concerned about figuring out what happened then keeping the 24 hr news monster updated.

Re:Bomb or missile - or Airbus Murderbus

[Anonymous Coward]

Bwahaha, Boeing shill eh, they must be getting desperate if youre the best you can do. What a load of twaddle.

For F sake

[Anonymous Coward]

Why is this on slashdot?

It is just a normal common garden variety news story - I don't need to go to a tech site to find normal news.
And also, because the plane was from and was going to a muslim country, the racist fuck heads will be out in force.

I was hoping the new owners would help slashdot rise higher but apparently not.
Still not worth logging in to......

Re:the safest part of the journey & Charley He

[Coisiche]

stray air-to-air rocket

Not the sort of thing that's usually misplaced. Granted there are frequently combat aircraft, representing a number of different counties, flying sorties in that part of the world but you'd think someone would notice if one returned with fewer missiles that it left with. Then again, media suppression is also par for the course in some places.

I'm sure

[Chrisq]

Dave420 will be wondering whether the Mormon Tabernacle Choir or the Women's Institute are to blame. After all, he thinks that every religious organisation is equally likely to commit acts of terrorism.

Re:I'm sure

[110010001000]

True. In recent decades only the Muslims and Christians (Ireland) have stooped so low to blow up innocents.

Re:I'm sure

[Dunbal]

A wild Basque separatist appears.

Re:I'm sure

[110010001000]

Personally I think all separatists should be strung up.

Re:I'm sure

[buk110]

My guess is it was those darn extreme radical Mennonites at it again

Re:I'm sure

[operagost]

Atheists use gulags, concentration camps, and good ol' firing squads to kill innocents instead.

Re:I'm sure

[Anonymous Coward]

Personally I think all separatists should be strung up.

Separately, of course.

Re:I'm sure

[Anonymous Coward]

My guess is it was those darn extreme radical Mennonites at it again

You've clearly forgotten the axiom: Anything bad that happens in the Arab world was the work of Israel.

Re:the safest part of the journey & Charley He

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, that is close to turkish airspace...

Re: LOL

[Anonymous Coward]

I only said that God is great. My thought and pray are with the victims and their family. Allahu akbar.

Why are you so racist? ...assuming it meant a terrorist battle cry. You disgust me. Doing Islam apology so early without even knowing the facts.

You know damn well what you're insinuating, and you've been doing it all over this thread. It shows an extreme lack of taste or respect on your part, and what's even more sad is that you apparently have nothing better to do. You're the same kind of person that would think it funny to run around wearing swastikas, but if you'd ever survived any of these conflicts (which you almost certainly wouldn't), it wouldn't be nearly so funny. You're probably among the younger population of this world, and you should be very very thankful you never had to live through something like WWII or the Vietnam War, or the wars in the Middle East. While I don't like saying the gift of life is a waste, you have absolutely no appreciation for how lucky you are that you can piss around and post shit like this all day, without living in fear that this is the last day you're alive.

Funny how you excoriate him for his blaming of Islam for what's quite likely a terrorist attack, you then you claim "you never had to live through something like ... the wars in the Middle East", when pretty much everybody on this planet since about, oh, 600 AD or so, has had to live through "the wars in the Middle East", and that's all because of Islam...

I bet you think you're smarter than average, too. Welcome to Lake Wobegone.

Re: LOL = Lots of Love

[Anonymous Coward]

Lots of Love

Re: LOL

[Nidi62]

Not funny. Indications are that there was an explosion in flight, but that'd unconfirmed. It's also not clear the cause of the explosiom, if true. That doesn't necessarily indicate an attack; TWA flight 800 exploded because of a mechanical failure. It's way too early to say shit like that.

Where are you seeing reports that indicate an explosion? Everything I am reading simply states that contact was lost over water at cruising altitude. Now, there are reports of a distress signal in the area it went down, but given that it was over water and very early in the morning when it disappeared, it is very unlikely anyone would have seen anything. The fact that there was no distress call from the pilots and that the plane simply disappeared from radar as opposed to being seen descending does indicate a catastrophic event, but from what I understand most civilian radar looks for transponders as opposed to the actual aircraft itself, so a power failure could conceivably cause both the lack of contact and disappearance from radar.

Re:the safest part of the journey & Charley He

[Anonymous Coward]

Not that it really matters but it's "Charlie Hebdo"
http://charliehebdo.fr/index.html

Re: LOL

[Anonymous Coward]

the wars in the Middle East", when pretty much everybody on this planet since about, oh, 600 AD or so, has had to live through "the wars in the Middle East", and that's all because of Islam...

It's pretty funny that you think roughly a millennium of inhabitants of the New World had anything to do with the Wars in the Middle East, that say, the Mongols are somehow the fault of Islam, and it seems you are implying that the Middle East was peaceful before Islam, when there have been conflicts involving that region of the world for quite a considerable period of time, perhaps you've read this book called the Bible? Whether it be Hittites, Egyptians, Persians, or Greeks, plenty of wars have taken place there.

Re: LOL

[Anonymous Coward]

whats the big deal today for anyone living in a shithole like the middle east?

the euro and us borders are both wide open.

they should just move.

theyll even get government assistance from their new hpst country, yay!

Re: LOL

[Anonymous Coward]

It isn't confirmed that this is a terrorist attack. Not at all.

Here's my understanding of what's actually happened:

Greek air traffic controllers made contact with the plane in the last check-in, when things were normal and the pilot seemed in good spirits. Thirty minutes later, when everything appeared normal, the Greek air traffic controllers attempted to contact the plane. This was about ten miles from the edge of Greek airspace. There was no response from the pilots. About a minute and a half later, the aircraft dropped from 37,000 feet to 15,000 feet, while swerving to the left and spinning to the right. Contact was lost at 10,000 feet.

That information says it's highly likely that the plane crashed into the Mediterranean. I don't think there's much doubt of that. Beyond that, it's virtually impossible to know what happened. I can think of multiple things that could explain what happened.

1) There may have been a mechanical problem that required the attention of the flight crew and prevented them from responding. A loss of control such as what would occur in a stall could explain these maneuvers.

2) A naferious act by the pilot could explain these behaviors. There have been multiple instances previously of pilot suicide. That could explain these maneuvers.

3) A terrorist attack could explain these maneuvers, especially if the crew was prevented from responding to the calls. That's all speculation.

I don't think it's clear at all that terror was responsible. I do think it's virtually certain the plane crashed into the Mediterranean. It's extremely likely that debris will be found soon because of the large number of search assets in the region and that those waters are heavily trafficked. But it's too early to say it's an act of terror.

Re: LOL

[Anonymous Coward]

lack of power? is that a euphomism for "arab terrorists blew it up"?

Re: LOL

[Anonymous Coward]

When I posted that, there were unconfirmed reports from mariners in the area indicating they say an explosion in the night sky. I haven't heard a lot about that since, but there were early reports of that.

Re: LOL

[Anonymous Coward]

If it looks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck...

Re: LOL

[Trogre]

Since when was Islam a race?

Faulty Transponder

[Anonymous Coward]

All it takes for a plane to "disappear" from "radar" is that its Mode-S transponder fail. Since air traffic control doesn't really use radar anymore (except in the US, where the government prefers to live in the stone age), relying instead on self-reporting by GPS-enabled transponders sending squitter messages. Passenger jets take care of minimums and separation themselves now, rather than relying on ground-based radar, which is wildly inaccurate compared to GPS.

In any case, all a pilot has to do to disappear from the universe is turn off the Mode S transponder. Poof. Gone. Without going to an antique radar system (which still cannot tell altitude), that plane is invisible.

Re:Faulty Transponder

[110010001000]

Wow. So many things wrong with that post. Radar is no longer used outside of the US? Radar can't determine altitude? Just wow. It is amazing you learned to type.

Re:Faulty Transponder

[mrchaotica]

(except in the US, where the government prefers to live in the stone age)

Or, you know, where the government prefers to actually be able to track planes without transponders.

(Speaking of which, even if they don't think it's necessary for commercial aviation, wouldn't all countries at least maintain military radar for early warning of aerial attack? I'm sure at least Egypt of all places would, although I suppose if they learned nothing from the Maginot Line they might have it all aimed at Israel.)

Re:Faulty Transponder

[Anonymous Coward]

Interesting. So the plane must be circling the Cairo airport as we speak? But then the bodies observed floating the Mediterranean need explaining.

Re:Faulty Transponder

[Anonymous Coward]

No, aviation radar cannot tell altitude *accurately*. Accurate altitude display on ATC radar depends on a separate altitude source. In older aircraft, it is a Mode C transponder linked to the altitude encoder in the aircraft (be it a GPS or barometric encoder). On newer aircraft, altitude is determined by an approved GPS source and beaconed with a Mode S transponder.

Pilots in the US are required to beacon altitude via their transponder when within 30 nautical miles of a Class B airport, and are otherwise not required to beacon altitude.

Primary radar altitude may be off by several hundred or even thousand feet. With the correct altimeter setting, the plane's local altitude source will be accurate to a few feet, and if an approved Mode S GPS source is used, a few inches.

Re: LOL

[Anonymous Coward]

You think it isn't. Even funnier:

a group of people sharing the same culture, history, language, etc.; an ethnic group. "we Scots were a bloodthirsty race then" synonyms: ethnic group, racial type, origin, ethnic origin, color More "students of many different races" people, nation "a bloodthirsty race"

the fact or condition of belonging to a racial division or group; the qualities or characteristics associated with this. "people of mixed race" synonyms: ethnic group, racial type, origin, ethnic origin, color "students of many different races"

a group or set of people or things with a common feature or features. "some male firefighters still regarded women as a race apart"

Biology a population within a species that is distinct in some way, especially a subspecies.

Re: LOL

[Dunbal]

The "wars in the middle east" are far, far older than islam. That region of the world has always been at each others' throats since the dawn of time. There must be something in the water ;)

Re: LOL

[Anonymous Coward]

It's quite obvious it was shot down. By Putin.

Re: LOL

[Anonymous Coward]

Trumpites don't dwell on such minor details. They're born for greater things.

Re: LOL

[Anonymous Coward]

We do not know anything yet of course. Yet the chances are that the religion induced violence may be the culprit - judging on the way things went lately these are either Buddhists or Assyrians or both.

Pilot priorities

[Anonymous Coward]

pilots are trained to report immediately to the ground

That's not how I was trained. I was always told: "Aviate, Navigate, Communicate, in that order." Or "First, fly the plane." In other words, conversations with ATC take the lowest priority.

Re:Pilot priorities

[Anonymous Coward]

They don't teach them to fly the plane anymore, they teach them to turn knobs and push buttons. The only reason there aren't more wrecks is because autopilots are more reliable. The pilots are by far the biggest threat to the passengers and crew. They really need to put a dog in the cockpit to bite anybody that reaches for the controls.

to complete the quote

[laurencetux]

we have at least to consider the possibility that we have a small aquatic bird of the family Anatidae on our hands

part of Oneness is noting when to Be Silent

violent movements of the aircraft

[Virtucon]

a 90 degree turn to the left then a 360 degree turn. Sounds like the flight control system or one of structural components of the aircraft weren't functioning. I would hate to be one of the passengers or crew on that flight because you know what was going to happen. What caused this will have to wait until the investigation completes or unless one of the N number of terrorist organizations claims responsibility. My bet is on the latter.

Re: violent movements of the aircraft

[Anonymous Coward]

yes obviously mechanical malfunction... after the muslim terrorists bomb went off blowing out large chunks of the plane.

yes mechanical malfunction... uh huh.

Re: LOL

[JaredOfEuropa]

Quite. Islam is an exponent of that culture, not the other way around. That's how religions work.

Re:Not News For Nerds

[kwiecmmm]

I wish I had points to vote this up.

Re:Bomb or missile - or Airbus Murderbus

[stealth_finger]

What a read. Comment of the decade!

Best line

ILL TELL YOU WHAT ITS MADE FROM.

MURDER!

Re: LOL

[Sique]

In this case so far, the reports hint at a birdlike shape and a screeching noise. It could be a stork, it could be a bat flying up when an old, unlocked door moved in the wind.

On it's way?

[Anonymous Coward]

On it is way? On it has way? How could you go through school without being able to understand when to use "it's" or "its"? How come your browser does not underline this glaring mistake in red (mine does)? How semiliterate can you be?

Re: LOL

[peon_a-z,A-Z,0-9$_ !]

Russian security official Alexander Bortnikov says "in all likelihood it was a terror attack" that caused EgyptAir Flight 804 from Paris to Cairo to crash into the Mediterranean early Thursday with 66 people on board.

http://bigstory.ap.org/fc727f9...

LOL at CNN's aviation correspondent Richard Quest

[JoeyRox]

The guy knows next to nothing about planes other than being a passenger on one. And he's the guy who was arrested in Central Park after he was caught jerking off with a rope around his neck that was tied to his genitals and with meth in his pocket.

Re: LOL

[NotDrWho]

I don't think it's unreasonable to suspect that terrorism may have been involved when you're talking about the sudden disappearance of a plane flying from France to Egypt (both of which have seen a lot of terrorist attacks in recent years from radical Muslims).

Maybe it was

[Anonymous Coward]

A forced upgrade to Windows 10?

Re: LOL

[stealth_finger]

I only said that God is great. My thought and pray are with the victims and their family. Allahu akbar.

Why are you so racist? ...assuming it meant a terrorist battle cry. You disgust me. Doing Islam apology so early without even knowing the facts.

I bet your the type of prick that walks around with a swastika on and then when someone says wtf you go into a big rant about hows its actually a thousands of years old hindu symbol for good luck.

Re: LOL

[stealth_finger]

It's quite obvious it was shot down. By Putin.

With an AK!

oh, LOL indeed, LOL indeed!

[Thud457]

CNN's aviation correspondent Richard Quest

Oh my, where do I even start with that one?
CNN hasn't even found MH370 yet and now they're jumping on another missing plane story?
Is Richard Quest[*] some relation to Dr. Benton Quest ? Is he some sort of black sheep of the family for some reason?


[*] never can find a MF'ing <BLINK> tag when you really need one. Fine, have this instead.

So many posts about terrorism

[Anonymous Coward]

So many posts about terrorism - but aren't pilots horribly underpaid and exploited, living shitty lives far out of proportion to their perceived station?

Re: LOL

[Pascoea]

"suspected" != "confirmed"

It is perfectly reasonable to SUSPECT that this was a terrorist attack. It's also perfectly reasonable to suspect a half-dozen other things. It's just that "suspected mechanical failure" of a plane doesn't give the talking heads as many viewers as "suspected terrorist attack".

Re: LOL

[Applehu Akbar]

Catastrophic destruction with no warning in the cruising phase of flight is so rare that a bomb is virtually the only possibility. TWA 800 was in initial climbout. Enroute accidents typically look like Swissair 111, in which an electrical short caused insulation above the flight deck to catch fire. There was plenty of communication with the pilots to characterize what went wrong, even before the flight recorders were analyzed. Even in the case of Air France 447, where there was no pilot communication, the avionics sent of a detailed series of error messages showing that Pitot icing gave the pilot incorrect values for airspeed, causing them to stall the plane in panic.

Re: LOL

[Applehu Akbar]

"[In] biology a population within a species that is distinct in some way, especially a subspecies."

Once again: a religion is not a genetic type. It's a set of ideas within a culture that people can freely adopt. Even Lysenko didn't believe that religion was transmitted genetically.

Re: LOL

[ShanghaiBill]

Would it be too much to ask to just at least pretend to be sympathetic?

About 150,000 people die everyday. That is about two per second. Why do these 66 people deserve more sympathy from strangers than those than die in the next half a minute?

Re:Bomb or missile - or Airbus Murderbus

[Anonymous Coward]

Could you also tell me how to edit my hosts file?

Re: LOL

[PmanAce]

That is not racism since any race can practice Islam.

Re: Bomb or missile - or Airbus Murderbus

[Applehu Akbar]

Christ, do you have that rant saved, ready to use? Did an Airbus aircraft run over your pet goldfish?

He's just farting in our general direction.

Re:Not News For Nerds

[Anonymous Coward]

I wish I had points to mod both of you down. If you dont like the story, move on to the next, there are PLENTY more.

Thats like going into a Mexican restaurant and bitching because they have hot dogs and hamburgers on the kids menu.

Re:LOL at CNN's aviation correspondent Richard Que

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds like he should be the reporter of the "fun time in the city" -section. At least he knows what flying feels like. Wait, that was mescaline.

Re:Not News For Nerds

[nitehawk214]

This is stuff that matters, though.

Re: LOL

[Anonymous Coward]

None in particular. I feel sympathy for all of them. Some people apparently feel sympathy for none of them.

Re: LOL

[Anonymous Coward]

I thought he used a crossbow bolt

Re: LOL

[NotDrWho]

Yeah, but let's not pretend that all scenarios are equally plausible, though. A terrorist attack is far more likely in this case than just about any other scenario save maybe mechanical malfunction.

Re: LOL

[Anonymous Coward]

Eh what? Those other people are not the current subject. How do you propose we discuss anything if you insist on involving anything and everything there is in the universe?

Or maybe you are just a troll?

Re: LOL

[Anonymous Coward]

Lead, Arsenic, and Antimony.

Re: LOL

[Anonymous Coward]

IF Lysenko ever used a word like "religion" in his written works, i'm pretty sure he would be on the wrong side of Ural mountains, camping in the middle of taiga, for some time.

We will probably never know what Lysenko would say about religion.
Also, don't feed the troll.

Re: LOL

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, nevermind the Christians and the atheists. They have been saints throughout history!

Re: LOL

[phantomfive]

Your comment title is "LOL", thereby clearly identifying you as a troll. Somehow people thought you were serious.....

Re:the safest part of the journey & Charley He

[twotacocombo]

Unless a stray air-to-air rocket got it into his infrared sensor.

Oh jeebus, now we have to worry about wild packs of stray air to air missiles roaming the countryside? Please friends, remember to spay or neuter your munitions.

Re: LOL

[Anonymous Coward]

You're the same kind of person that would think it funny to run around wearing swastikas,

Or he's pointing-out that those who use such terms are a movement much like that in Germany which wore the swastikas. Factually speaking, this movement helped generate the German one--the Furor hosted members of government in Exile which helped giddily in forming his opinion of the Jews. It isn't insensitive to recognize the problem: Muslim acquaintances of mine also recognize this problem. They just don't speak out (they'll be accused of apostasy and murdered by their neighbors--their words). The problem with not speaking out, however, is that the cancer will just continue to grow.

And by comparison the problem is much, much worse. Germany had many admirers of the Furor but only 1 in 10 was a Nazi. The Islamic world polled for support of the Jihadists comes in at about 1 in 3. Given the numbers of people who likely wouldn't want to admit that openly, it may be as high as 1 in 2. There's reason vast regions of the earth are now depopulated by anyone but these groups--and it's a recurring pattern for centuries. Still, Muslims are the greatest victims of Islamist aggression...yet the broad admiration for the "pure" and "committed" ones remains a massive enabler--they get their own medicine.

Re: LOL

[nadaou]

While I don't like saying the gift of life is a waste, you have absolutely no appreciation for how lucky you are that you can piss around and post shit like this all day, without living in fear that this is the last day you're alive.

--
"Set a man a fire, he'll be warm for the rest of the night. Set a man afire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life."

and this is why I love /. sigs.

OP AC troll: your subject line gives you away.

much informations in these metadata

Wreckage Found

[StikyPad]

http://www.cnn.com/2016/05/18/...

Will this usher in a new era of web errors?

EgyptAirror 804: Wreckage found.

Too soon?

Re: LOL

[Anonymous Coward]

Since the year 2632 when the major Islamic groups finally agreed to organize a yearly desert race though the Arabian Peninsula about who is right about the heredity status of the Prophet that year. Only improvised weapons allowed. It became a popular arena of The Tournament, sponsored by Liandri Corporation.

Occam's razor would suggest

[Anonymous Coward]

it is the religion of peace.

Update: Found Crashed

[billstewart]

I don't know which version the BBC article had when you posted that, but they've found the plane, which did crash in the ocean.

Re:Update: Found Crashed

[Anonymous Coward]

The Mediterranean Ocean?

Re: LOL

[Anonymous Coward]

I have answered you inquiry concerning my comment subject. Now awenser mine; Why do you assume 'allahu akbar' is a terrorist war cry and not a prayer? Why are you SO racist?

Oh, come now. Tell us truthfully: If you are out in public and you hear someone shout "Allahu akbar!", what is the first thing that pops into your mind? Do you immediately think to yourself "yes, indeed, Allah is greatest"? Or do you rather think "Shit! Something or someone is literally about to blow up"? I know my first instinct would be to run and duck for cover. Go ahead and tell me you wouldn't do much the same thing. Can you type your response while keeping a straight face? Seriously?

Re:Not News For Nerds

[Anonymous Coward]

The Slashdot effect, also known as slashdotting, occurs when a popular website links to a smaller site, causing a massive increase in traffic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slashdot_effect

Back when slashdot used to be a site for nerds and not stories that would generate a lot of comments, the main source of content now. It takes some controversial subject or tragedy to break 100 comments now. Even then a high percentage of comments are dupes of things repeated in every other thread or could have easily been posted by a bot, including this one, which I suspect most are.

Re: LOL = Lots of Love

[Anonymous Coward]

A friend's mom was always signing her emails with "LOL" when they weren't funny. She asked her mom why and the mom said "Because I'm sending you Lots Of Love each time." Isn't that what it means?

Re:Bomb or missile - or Airbus Murderbus

[Rakarra]

Wow, I love this. The amount of crazy just intensifies as the comment goes on!
The weird point about PI reminds me of the Timecube website.

Re: LOL

[Rakarra]

While riding a bear. Shirtless.

Re:the safest part of the journey & Charley He

[Anonymous Coward]

You do know that a Italian Airliner was shot down in the same area by a NATO plane .
http://whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/CRASH/TWA/MORE_DOWN/itavia.html
The official explanation was a missile gone stray during military exercises.
So not so unusual unless you think NATO was lying
Though there were accusations that the plane got shotdown by mistake while NATO was trying to shootdown Gaddafi's plane.

Israel has a history of shooting down civilian airliners.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libyan_Arab_Airlines_Flight_1103
So does the US.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

With NATO, Israel and the US all in the area carrying out active operations I wouldnt rule out a missile shootdown so soon

Re: LOL

[Anonymous Coward]

How are you not a transparently self-righteous SJW scumbag pretending to be concerned about racism?

Re: LOL

[Anonymous Coward]

Fucking moron. Any race can practice Islam? False. False. False. Were you born retarded or did sucking your dad's fat cheesy cock send you that way? How can the fucking 100 meters practice Islam? Or the Grand fucking Prix? The Tour de fucking France or the Indy fucking 500? Ignorant twat. Do you even words you pedo bagend bellmuncher.

Re: LOL

[Anonymous Coward]

My uncle was on UA 175 on 11/11, so your diatribe strikes a chord. We talked to him on speaker phone seconds before the plane hit the south tower. I'll never forget his final words: "Allahu Akbar!!!"

Re:the safest part of the journey & Charley He

[GCsoftware]

Shot by whom exactly?

The usual suspects (US, Israel..) are Egyptian ALLIES (well at least have a peace agreement) and have no interest in doing this.

The Israelis aren't engaging anyone over the Med in air-to-air combat and neither is the US.

A SAM launched from North Sinai? Maybe..

Air-to-air: HIGHLY unlikely.

Re:the safest part of the journey & Charley He

[Max_W]

It could be unintentional. For example, something like what happened at the 1967 USS Forrestal fire. Or a rocket could be released during training and went amiss. I mean there is nothing what can happen to such an aircraft as A320 at this altitude by itself.

It is like, I do not know, for example, cycling on an empty even path in good weather and suddenly crashing on the ground without an apparent reason.

Re:Not News For Nerds

[Lawrence_Bird]

No, its like going to a mexican restaurant and finding they have 3 'mexican' items on the menu and the rest are french, italian and german.

Possibilities...

[martinfb]

Perhaps a meteor hit it. Perhaps it was a covert assassination of a passenger by an unfriendly state. Or, perhaps a serious defect of the plane itself.

Re: LOL

[Anonymous Coward]

And we all know twa800 did not just go boom in the sky either

Re: LOL

[Anonymous Coward]

Is that the butter with the double amputee squaw on the cover?

Get real

[NewYork]

Since 1971 OPEC is bullied to sell Oil exclusively in US dollars resulting in friction between 1.8 billion Muslims and the West;
http://www.zerohedge.com/print...

Re: LOL

[PmanAce]

I see you tried use fancy words and be funny at the same time. Stick to one at a time and work on it, because you do need that practice.

Re: LOL

[Nehmo]

It isn't confirmed that this is a terrorist attack. Not at all.

I don't think it's clear at all that terror was responsible....

Let's use bomb or device instead of "terror". That word is ambiguous and fraught with unscientific meaning.

You can't conclude a bomb caused the crash with the current evidence, but you certainly can say things point to it. The plane was an EgyptAir flying from Paris to Cairo. That's an airline that recently experienced a bomb and cities that recently have had Muslim bombing activity. The invoked sensors were all localized on the front right of the plane around the galley. The plane dropped quickly.

=Muslim bomb.

Re: LOL

[Nehmo]

Since when was Islam a race?

A race gets special privilege in modern society. Consequently, people defending Islam want to elevate its status to race, allowing it avoid attacks from people who don't want to be labeled as racist.

For this issue, it's fortunate I'm an atheist. It can't be said that my anti-Islam attitude stems from my Christianity.