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Microsoft Signature PC Requirements Now Blocks Linux Installation: Reports
Reader sombragris writes: According to a well-documented forum thread, the Signature PC program by Microsoft now requires to lock down PCs. This user found out that his Lenovo Yoga 900 ISK2 UltraBook has the SSD in a proprietary RAID mode which Linux does not understand and the BIOS is also locked down so it could not be turned off. When he complained that he was unable to install Linux, the answer he got was: "This system has a Signature Edition of Windows 10 Home installed. It is locked per our agreement with Microsoft."
Even worse, as the original poster said, "[t]he Yoga 900 ISK2 at Best Buy is not labeled as a Signature Edition PC, but apparently it is one, and Lenovo's agreement with Microsoft includes making sure Linux can't be installed." As some commenter said: "If you buy a computer with this level of lockdown you should be told."
There is also a report on ZDNet which looks very understanding towards Lenovo, but the fact remains: the SSD is locked down in a proprietary RAID mode that cannot be turned off.
Even worse, as the original poster said, "[t]he Yoga 900 ISK2 at Best Buy is not labeled as a Signature Edition PC, but apparently it is one, and Lenovo's agreement with Microsoft includes making sure Linux can't be installed." As some commenter said: "If you buy a computer with this level of lockdown you should be told."
There is also a report on ZDNet which looks very understanding towards Lenovo, but the fact remains: the SSD is locked down in a proprietary RAID mode that cannot be turned off.
Give it time.
If I were planning to run Linux on a computer, I probably would have done a few quick searches on driver support beforehand. And I wouldn't be buying it at Best Buy.
The Daddy casts sleep on the Baby. The Baby resists!
Scream from the highest rooftop. Get the BBB involved. Make a huge stink in the store when you return it. Enough backlash will make headlines on a mainstream site like Consumerist.com and word will spread Microsoft needs another monopoly inquiry hearing.
After UEFI secure boot was announced, does anyone remember when we thought it was only a matter of time before it was used to block 3rd party OS installations?
Class action.
Just return it. If not back to store, then send it in for repair, etc. It's obviously a PC, and since you own it, you should be able to run whatever you want on it... if something prevents you from doing that, then it's obviously a defect that they must address (or you want your money back). Also claim you're joining a class-action lawsuit in relation do this...
Just return it.
Demand a refund, no matter how much Best Buy tries to tell you that they won't.
It's unfit for the purpose that you bought it for, and expecting it to be fit for that purpose is not unusual or unreasonable.
If they completely refuse to refund your money, sue everyone involved (BB, MS, and Lenovo) in small claims court. Small claims goes up to $2500 or even $10,000 in a lot of jurisdictions, so it'll cover the cost of a PC you can't use for the purpose you bought it for.
Alternatively, if you have a lot of spare time and/or a desire to really make a mess while making your point, demand Best Buy give you a replacement, leave the store with it, take it to the parking lot, cut open the box, unwrap a few components, re-stuff the box (poorly), come back in, and return that unit also. Repeat until the store is out of new stock. Every item you do that to has to be refurbished, which costs Lenovo a lot of money that isn't in the margin of that unit. Then demand a refund from Best Buy, since they can't replace your defective item.
I really can't believe convicted monopolist Microsoft would go and do a thing like this!
Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility. - Ambrose Bierce
But... I thought "Microsoft Loves Linux"? https://blogs.technet.microsof...
The article more accurately summarizes things than the biased snippet: "On first blush this seems to be an issue relating to how Lenovo has configured the systems. I can't find any evidence to suggest that Microsoft is trying to "lock" Signature Edition PCs to Windows 10, or making any moves to shut the door on Linux users" This seems to be about Lenovo's use of proprietary drivers for RAID, not MS system requirements. And a reminder that corporate tech support folks have no clue what they're talking about, so quoting a forum post by one does not establish insidious contractual obligations for Lenovo by Microsoft.
Do you say this about your iPhone or your smart TV or your blueray player or your automobile?
If so, there are options for all of these things if you do the research and you want to run your own stuff. There are also plenty of locked down models in the same market that do not let you modify firmware or certain settings.
This is one particular Windows appliance device. There are still plenty of general computing platforms you can run whatever you want on.
My eyes reflect the stars and a smile lights up my face.
The defective Lenovo defaults also block Windows reinstalls... In other words this is Lenovo's fault.
Same stuff, different day.
None of those are general purpose computers.
Sorry, teleporters just kill you and then make a copy. A perfect, soul-less copy.
Which RAID level works best with a single drive?
Oh... I get it now. I was trying to understand why suddenly bash and some of the Ubuntu pieces were suddenly supported on Windows. So, since you can easily get access to all your real Linux tools and suchlike (or will eventually) there's actually no reason at all to complain that you can't install the OS - just run it on Windows.
All that "Developers want access to their tools" blather explaining why MS decided to create the layer that allows Linux code to run just didn't seem convincing. This must have been the goal all along. I think this time it just might stick. Oh well. I'm not a gamer or video editor, so I suspect that when it's time for me to replace my current laptop, there'll be a reasonably speced ARM solution so I won't really notice. I already said "Goodby" to Microsoft, I guess it will soon be time to say the same to Intel.
I don't like the idea of some odd soft / fake raid system and what did Intel do to mess up their fake raid this badly?
Linux users make up like 0.01% of the desktop market. You ain't gonna watch shit burn.
I have been a big fan/proponent/promoter/user of Lenovo laptops for years. They're rugged and reliable and does what I need them for - I'm writing this on a T510 running Ubuntu 15.04
But, Lenovo always seems to be on the wrong side of software issues. Whether it's malware, tracking or now Win10, I don't feel like their products can be trusted.
To be fair, if I were to consider anybody else's Windows PCs now, I would probably reject them for the same reasons as Lenovo. Running Linux on the laptops in a dual boot mode is a requirement for me.
So, what looks like the best solution for me is to eschew Windows laptops and go to Macs. I have a four year old Macbook Air that I've upgraded the hard drive on, dual booting and I can avoid the Microsoft bullshit for a bit of a premium over a Lenovo laptop, but as I tend to buy higher quality laptops, that premium isn't that high.
Tower systems will continue to be custom builds with Windows 7 or Linux.
Sorry Microsoft, Win10 just ain't in my future.
Mimetics Inc. Twitter
I would argue that an iPhone is a general purpose computer.
Also, take a look at Google's Pixel device or Apple's Mac. Both of those are locked down in similar ways, possibly even more severely.
If Microsoft want's to make a version of Windows that requires their own hardware specifications AND is able to get manufacturers to make and sell it, then that's perfectly fine in my opinion.
You don't have to buy a Signature Edition Windows device though.
My eyes reflect the stars and a smile lights up my face.
In fact, this story has already been posted on slashdot, just put in different words: https://news.slashdot.org/stor...
Return the laptop to Best-Buy.
So a single story from one user who doesn't seem particularly computer savvy is now definitive proof? I know you all hate Microsoft, but come on guys, be reasonable.
Do you say this about your iPhone or your smart TV or your blueray player or your automobile?
Damn right I do.
There are also plenty of locked down models in the same market that do not let you modify firmware or certain settings.
And it's HIGH time this became very illegal.
The lesson here is that a sufficiently large corporation is indistinguishable from government. --ultranova
Lighten up Francis.
Microsoft hates Linux
aaaaaaa
Do any of those things have operating systems develop, marketed to the general public, and sold by 3rd parties?
That's what he said, what's your point?
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
I have been a staunch Windows users for a very long time. But Windows 10 was a dramatic change it what Microsoft decided to do with it's operating system.
It made a conscious choice to use Windows 10 as a marketing device and to lock many things down to force users into its ecosystem. Anyone should have recognize this with Microsoft's aggressive push to get users to install Windows 10. I have since moved on to Linux Ubuntu because I would rather deal with a operating system focused more on the OS itself than on trying to push a proprietary system of tools. I think locking down the Signature PC models is another attempt at preventing users from leaving. It's like the Eagle's "Hotel California" you can check in, but you can never leave. Well unless of course you never check in.
Oh no it's PS3 all over again. Can somebody call Geohot?
Laptops have always been pretty fucky.
Your hair look like poop, Bob! - Wanker.
I have never owned or purchased ANYTHING from Apple. For this exact reason. A computer is a general use machine with the ability to install or create what I want with it. I don't own a smart TV because I have a PC connected to it. Which makes it even smarter.
An interesting reddit post:
"[–]0xFFFFFF 89 points 7 hours ago*
Levono is aware of the issue and fixing it: https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/L...
It is on hackernews, where people are being rational and theorizing that this is not microsofts fault. More like best-buy rep doesn't know what he talks about and the SSD doesn't have support drivers in linux kernal.. Or lenova messed up their bios implementation.
Luckily we have the reddit witchhunt in full force, so we can make uninformed rants!
Note: Every single previous similar scenario about linux being locked out has not been microsofts fault, which is why people are sceptical that this is the case this time..
I also have a Signature Edition laptop, it runs linux fine.."
Both of those are locked down in similar ways, possibly even more severely.
I can run Linux, BSD, Windows, OSX and probably other OSs on a Mac. Apple even provides support software for doing this. so why don't you drop the lies out of your ramblings and maybe you'll be taken seriously.
Really did. Awesome hardware, very solid, very long lasting, and you could get spare parts for ... well, ever.
Then Lenovo took over, and ... well, the aluminum turned to plastic and looking for spare would usually be met with the request to spare them the hassle and wouldn't you rather want a new one...
Sorry. I loved your notebooks, IBM. I really did. I had them for nearly 20 years. But I only had one Lenovo. And it's not looking like there will be another one littering my home.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
We've known which way they're going for a couple of years now. Just install Linux and stop supporting psychopathy.
Yes, MS has repeatedly shown it will test the limits of hubris. The new boss is just like the old bosses. Misleading prompts for Windows 10 installs, snoopware, etc. etc.
Table-ized A.I.
Now comes the "Extinguish" part.
And you FOSSies all thought Uncle Satya was your friend. How cute!
But it's time for bed, and here comes Uncle Satya with a little present for you...
They want to ensure nobody can mess with their operating system with a rootkit or some such fuckery.
Instead of locking out the hackers by securing their OS properly, they lock out their own customers from their own computers. Brilliant. Why didn't Apple think of that?
A reddit poster offered this, in his link Lenovo says the dev team is working on it:
""[–]0xFFFFFF 89 points 7 hours ago*
Levono is aware of the issue and fixing it: https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/L...
It is on hackernews, where people are being rational and theorizing that this is not microsofts fault. More like best-buy rep doesn't know what he talks about and the SSD doesn't have support drivers in linux kernal.. Or lenova messed up their bios implementation.
Luckily we have the reddit witchhunt in full force, so we can make uninformed rants!
Note: Every single previous similar scenario about linux being locked out has not been microsofts fault, which is why people are sceptical that this is the case this time..
I also have a Signature Edition laptop, it runs linux fine..""
https://www.reddit.com/r/linux...
The Lenovo link has an official post saying:
"Re: Yoga 900-13ISK2 - BIOS update for setting RAID mode for missing hard drive on linux install Options
07-27-2016 10:04 AM
Thank you for confirming it is still not possible to install Linux on Yoga 900-13ISK2 systems.
This issue has been escalated to the Development team. I am unable to offer a timeframe for fix at this stage in the investigation. With previous cases, BIOS fixes have been delivered anywhere from several weeks to several months.
I will post again when I have more information on the investigation."
https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/L...
Even if it turns out this was some level-1 tech support at Lenovo talking out of his ass, nobody should be surprised when Microsoft tries to lock down the BIOS to prevent alternative operating systems. They've already done it for Windows Phones and Surface tablets, so why wouldn't they do it for their laptops and desktops?
You are talking about Boot Camp I assume.
Boot Camp does not help users install Linux, and does not provide drivers for it. Most methods for dual-booting with Linux on Mac rely on manual disk partitioning, and the use of an EFI boot manager such as rEFInd.
So, there is a non-supported work around for installing Linux.... that is beside the point.
The point is that OS manufacturers closely stipulate their hardware requirements in most cases.
Microsoft is make a particular version of Windows for a Windows appliance. It is meant to be an appliance. If you can find a way to run Linux on it, great, but that isn't their intent.
My eyes reflect the stars and a smile lights up my face.
I too don't see a problem here. Most computers you by at best buy, ick best buy, are going to be windows machines. I you want a custom job to run linux do some research on the net and fine one designed to run linux and prebuilt with linux installed. Those now exist, this isn't 199x anymore. There are plenty of venders that will say, "you want linux, sure"
Supporting World Peace Through Nuclear Pacification
Also, take a look at Google's Pixel device or Apple's Mac. Both of those are locked down in similar ways, possibly even more severely.
I'm not sure about the Pixel, but from what I've read it's expected to support dual boot out of the box. Apple Macs come with a tool called Boot Camp that will partition your disk and aid installing MS Windows (it provide drivers for various bits of hardware and installs the required BIOS compatibility optional bits in the UEFI partition for non-EFI-aware operating systems).
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
"Convicted? MS settled with the DOJ and the terms of the settlement have expired."
SSSSSSSSSSSSSay it out loud while hiSSSSSSSSSSSSing like a SSSSSSSSSSSSnake and that's about right.
So I guess this won't be the year of the Linux desktop after all. Thanks Microsoft! :(
"That's the way to do it" - Punch
You ain't gonna do nothing. LOLzzz!!!!
-Sincerely,
MicroSoft.
Actually Lenovo offers also machines without OS, including laptops, so this locked down BS is not the only option there. They are obviously doing that to lower the sticker price (machine with Windows is about $100 extra), but it is possible to get one of these.
I am not sure wheher they are offering them in every market, but e.g. in Slovakia they are available
A year ago I have got an E31 laptop with the new Skylake CPU and no problems with Linux or pre-installed malware whatsoever on it.
To be fair, if I were to consider anybody else's Windows PCs now, I would probably reject them for the same reasons as Lenovo. Running Linux on the laptops in a dual boot mode is a requirement for me.
So, what looks like the best solution for me is to eschew Windows laptops and go to Macs.
I recently bought a Hewlett Packard Spectre 13 - their thinnest and lightest notebook computer to date. I installed Xubuntu Linux 16.04 LTS in dual boot mode alongside Microsoft Windows Home Edition (64-bit) without any issues. Shrink the disk partition containing Microsoft Windows (C:), reboot with an USB thumbdrive containing bootable Xubuntu, and install. The HP Spectre 13 works flawlessly.
Purism
System76
Tuxedo Computers
Luckyly we have those now.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
I have been a big fan/proponent/promoter/user of Lenovo laptops for years. They're rugged and reliable and does what I need them for - I'm writing this on a T510 running Ubuntu 15.04
The T series might be fine, but the G series are complete and udder garbage. The case simply disintegrated on my wife's. Be warned!
One of our competitors trademarked the term "hypothesis". From now on, we will call them "boneheaded ideas".
"Do you say this about your iPhone or your smart TV or your blueray player or your automobile?"
I've not heard of people installing custom OS on iPhones, but smartphones in general: absolutely. A lot of users choose to install standard Android instead of the bloatware strewn versions of Android that many providers release.
If there were software alternatives for my TV, blueray player or automobile, absolutely I'd prefer a model that could be upgraded by software of my choice. (I don't own a smart tv, bluray player or car with intelligence though).
"That's the way to do it" - Punch
I have a Lenovo T430 that's worked very well for almost 4 years now. I'm in no rush to replace it, but I am extremely tempted to upgrade to this XPS 13 from Dell. The high definition screen and small form factor are a winning combination for me as I typically end up having to work on long-haul flights. Any thoughts on it?
PS: Sorry, I should have stated, that's a Dell laptop that ships with Ubuntu. While Ubuntu is not my cup of tea, the native Linux support is something I am more than happy to endorse and support, even if I install a different Linux distro on it.
1. Best Buy. Enough said.
2. Lenovo Yoga's. A joke from the start, marketed towards the masses as "prosumer" systems. Can't do anything about the hardware or the OS; you are locked-in. Same deal with HP and their so - called LaserJet "Pro" series.
3. Trusting MS to do the right thing. Enough said there too.
First rule of holes; When in one, stop digging.
And it's HIGH time this became very illegal.
IANAL, but I think this could already be considered illegal under the current US anti-trust, anti-collusion legislation. I'd like to see some lawsuits filed over it.
No way this will fly in Europe.
One of our competitors trademarked the term "hypothesis". From now on, we will call them "boneheaded ideas".
It'd be interesting to see what the actual technical reason for this is, but I know the business reason.
Microsoft's Signature program (described here, is essentially an agreement with manufacturers that they won't load crapware on the PC. It's doing for the consumer what the technical among us do whenever we buy a new Windows PC -- wipe the hard drive and do a clean install-from-media of Windows.
Manufacturers of low-margin consumer hardware make up some of the margin by bundling garbage software like firewalls, AV, "helper" programs, etc. Without that source of revenue, I'll bet they're relying on payments by Microsoft to cover what is lost. The interesting thing to see is whether or not all Signature PCs have clever restrictions that make it just difficult enough to install Linux that no one will bother.
PPS: Shit, sorry, ignore that suggestion. Dell has this to say about the battery:
----
Battery
56WHr battery (built-in)*
*Battery is built-in to the laptop and is not replaceable by the customer.
----
Screw that. Everyone knows that the battery is typically the first component to wear out, and being able to buy a new fresh battery at the 4-6 year mark is a great way to keep an older laptop on the road. This was a terrible design choice and a real disappointment :(
This isn't about Linux. Its about blocking Windows 7 and Windows 8 from running. Microsoft needs everyone on 10. They can't allow people to downgrade.
If you look at the title, he's complaining about Microsoft, not Lenovo.
I was talking about the more general case of locked-down phones, smart TVs, bluray players, and cars. I think that's currently legal in most of the world, but it shouldn't be.
The lesson here is that a sufficiently large corporation is indistinguishable from government. --ultranova
There are still plenty of general computing platforms you can run whatever you want on
There were once so many passenger pigeons that they could darken the sky. Now they're extinct.
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
Oh look, the worst case scenario is unfolding.
God i hate being always right.
I most often grab something quickly from Best Buy, Walmart, or Fry's. It would cost me money to delay.
When one of our laptops dies, I'm paying someone to work, but they don't have a proper computer work on. Until we get them a new machine, they are stuck on whatever POS is in closet. It's probably in the closet because it's half broken.
So I grab something that looks like it'll work from the closest store, boot it to be sure it's not completely defective, then run the Linux install script and they can get back to work. 95% of the time, that works fine.
One time, Walmart was the quickest store, so I grabbed a laptop there, took it back to the office, and booted it. Wifi didn't work. Windows said it didn't have the driver for the wifi card. The web site of the laptop manufacturer didn't have a wifi driver for that version of Windows. I tried the manufactuer of the wireless card - no driver for that version of Windows. Windows Update? Nope, probably a million of that laptop sold at Walmart, with a wifi card that does not work with the preloaded Windows. Well that's stupid. Screw it, we use wired ethernet anyway. I pop in a CentOS install disk and 30 minutes later she's up and running - with wifi. CentOS included a driver that "just works"; apparently no driver existed for the preloaded, current version of Windows.
The last two or three PCs I built, I didn't look at "Linux compatibility" for any of the hardware, and I didn't "design it to run linux." Linux just worked.
Yes, this is obviously a driver issue. They wrote drivers to make it work on Windows, and expect Linux users to build their own drivers to work with their RAID.
In a way, I see no problem with that.
So, why didn't Microsoft give discounts on the OS cost to PC manufacturers that install a TPU chip that only allows the machine to boot from digitally signed OSes? (which ofc Windows would be the only one).
Why isn't this story published in 2006? It does seem like an obvious tactic, why did they never get around to doing it?
_Although_ I suppose I don't see how Microsoft would benefit. If Lenovo ships a laptop with Windows on it, that means Lenovo paid the per deployment license fee, however much it costs to large OEMs. Which means that Microsoft has it's money, why would they care if the end user uninstalled the OS they paid for and ran Linux or dual booted?
Good God.. I've been sayin it. I've been sayin it for ten damn years. Ain't I been sayin it? Miguel.. Yeah, I've been sayin it.
Who releases a computer that won't run AHCI? From accounts of people who have looked into the BIOS .. AHCI is there but *intentionally* restricted from being enabled by customers. The people who did this knew exactly what this meant when they did it and what consequences of doing it would be yet they went ahead with it anyway.
Can I use the Sherman Antitrust to drop ESPN with out dropping all the channels
It will cost you significantly more to find a Linux PC with your desired specs, compared to buying a Windows PC and installing Linux on it. At any rate, some people also want to dual boot.
This space intentionally left blank
From the article you linked:
Loving GNU/Linux on servers != loving GNU/Linux on laptops and home desktop PCs. Microsoft attempts to make up for it:
Of these three, a port of Skype with a largely outdated feature set is available for GNU/Linux. For the others, Microsoft falls back on "Linux-based" Android with Google Play, which isn't GNU/Linux and isn't intended to work on traditional desktop or laptop PCs. Android prior to 7.0 "Nougat" doesn't even have window tiling as a standard feature, instead forcing applications to run in the full screen. Enjoy your four-function calculator filling your 10-inch tablet.
Given time I'm sure some linux developer will resolve that issue. Other than that, just don't buy it.
But given time, Lenovo will probably switch to some other weird hardware with no Linux drivers, and the cycle starts anew.
Or... we could just boycott OEM's that sell devices like this. Nobody needs to buy a Lenovo PC, so we have choices - whether we actually run Linux or not. If we (as a community, or whatever it is we are...) think PC's should be able to have alternative OS's installed on them, then we should only support vendors that don't make that unnecessarily hard. Yes, there are the System 76's of the world, but for many of us, a cheap, naked PC - or one with a cheap, bundled Windows installation - that allows us to wipe/install and or dual-boot is the best option. And it's up to us (as a big, influential-ish market segment) to make sure that such PC's remain available.
Posted from my Android phone. Oh, I can change this? There, that's better...
RAID and a single drive doesn't make any sense.
For HDD, or for SSD? A single physical storage device may be internally organized as two or more independent block devices. For various reasons, this is more practical for flash memory than for spinning rust.
Unless you don't understand what the acronym RAID means.
It's supposed to mean "redundant array of independent drives" or the like. But with RAID 0 obviating the "redundant" part of the expansion, "array of independent drives" sounds like what's going on inside an SSD, with a controller in front of a bunch of NAND flash memories.
That's exactly what Microsoft wants. They don't care if there are expensive, special-purpose boxes built to run Linux - as long as it's difficult to avoid Windows - or even try something else. But the beauty of Linux is that it is built to run on as many boxes out there that it can be made to run on. You don't need a special-purpose vendor to use it. And if you needed that 5 or 10 years ago, Linux would've never caught on. So, sorry, I don't need my vendor to say "you want linux, sure". If someone else needs the security of a pre-install, fine. But I'll install my own - and I'd hope to find enough support for that position that most vendors would gladly allow it.
Posted from my Android phone. Oh, I can change this? There, that's better...
I too don't see a problem here. Most computers you by at best buy, ick best buy, are going to be windows machines. I you want a custom job to run linux do some research on the net and fine one designed to run linux and prebuilt with linux installed. Those now exist, this isn't 199x anymore. There are plenty of venders that will say, "you want linux, sure"
Not really. We just had an article on Dell (they also did this in 2010 as well) providing a Laptop with Linux on it for $150 USD extra when it would have been cheaper to just pay the Microsoft Tax and install your preferred Linux distribution on it. Most people who want Linux either know how to install it or know someone who will do it for them. For many home installations on laptops and desktops just entering your language, keyboard type and then choose the default disk layout is all you need to do.
With Linux Live distributions you can even take the basic system for a test drive to see if all hardware works. Obviously, it still pays to do your homework before choosing a Linux-compatible laptop or desktop, never rely on the sales rep.
There ain't no such thing as proprietary standards only proprietary formats. Standards are by definition open.
"This system has a Signature Edition of Windows 10 Home installed. It is locked per our agreement with Microsoft."
That doesn't sound like Lenovo's fault to me - except of course the part where they made the agreement in the first place...
Posted from my Android phone. Oh, I can change this? There, that's better...
Linux users make up like 0.01% of the desktop market. You ain't gonna watch shit burn.
Wrong, it's more along the lines of 1.5%.which if you work it out would still come out in the tens of millions.
Microsoft actively taking steps to lock out a competing OS from installing? Shocking! *cough*
Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
Fuck Microsoft, fuck Linux, fuck Best Buy. Get a mac.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/tech...
"To improve system performance, Lenovo is leading an industry trend of adopting Raid [redundant array of independent disks] on the SSDs [solid state drives] in certain product configurations," it said.
"Lenovo does not intentionally block customers using other operating systems on its devices and is fully committed to providing Linux certifications and installation guidance on a wide range of products."
It added that once Linux-based operating system developers had updated the necessary code, their products should work on its machines.
systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
cocks just got rock hard.
Stop buying their shit, they are a toxic company. There is no reason to buy from them at all.
Good-bye
That's why you don't buy computers from Walmart. If you buy an actual business class computer with warranty and keep a proper working spare you'd have no problems.
Windows 7 and up support EFI natively - no need for Boot Camp.
Matthew Garrett wore informative article on this one: http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/44...
The biggest problem here is that it wasn't even disclosed to the buyer as being a "signature series". I am against lock down, but lack of disclosure is an even bigger problem. OEMs ought to be disclosing whether or not their hardware has proprietary Windows drivers, however they don't do it. It goes beyond "let the buyer beware," a lot of times the info isn't there.
Did the box list only Windows under supported operating systems? Did the box only have Windows logos on it and no Linux logos? I'd say if there is not an indication of Linux support one should not assume so. After examine a retail box I would check the technical information on the website. If still no indication of Linux support I would move on to a different product. I dispute this notion that given no indication of Linux support on packaging, on the website, on the support forums, etc it is a "buyer beware" situation. I would further dispute an argument that it is traditional for PCs to support Linux, while that may be true for desktops to a very large degree it has not been true in general for laptops. Laptops have a long history of compatibility problems. I realize this is a big wishlist item for Linux users but lets not misrepresent the situation as anything more than that, a still unfulfilled wish.
Take it back to Best Buy and return it. This product doesn't work as advertised, I want a refund.
Who did what now?
Lenovo Yoga and Twist have always been locked down like this. Those machines are for folks that want a quick and dirty windows laptop that is a tablet when need be. It's not meant to be a Linux PC. Buy a Linux PC and stop making mountains out of molehills.
You can't run Linux on the Pixel or a MacBook?
Not saying it isn't possible. But those are devices that the OS maker did not intend to be able to run Linux or any other OS but their own.
Macs not only support Windows but Apple offers a utility, Boot Camp, to assist in installing Windows on a Mac and configure dual booting macOS or Windows and to install Windows drivers for Apple specific hardware and services.
If I had to choose one it would be Linux. And I'm a gamer so...
It's really not that hard to replace. "Not replaceable by the customer" really just means not consumer friendly. This comes with the territory when you're custom-molding the battery shape to use as much (otherwise wasted) internal space as possible.
I could only get warranty work at approved repair centers, and the cost of labor wasn't included in the coverage?? So what about just asking for the parts and DIY?
When one of our laptops dies, I'm paying someone to work, but they don't have a proper computer work on.
Or, you know, you could engage in good IT management practices for your organization, maintain proper warranty coverage and service contracts which gets hardware up and running the next day, coupled with a hot spare for emergencies, and a proper accounting of machine age as well as a purchasing timeline and budgeting.
Nah, your way sounds much more cost effective and efficient.
I have never owned or purchased ANYTHING from HP. For this exact reason. A computer is a general use machine with the ability to install or create what I want with it. Since I can't run Commodore Basic V2 on the HP it's not a real general use computer!!!!1111!!!! HERP!!!!
I've yet to see any computer list other operating systems on a retail box. They all come with Windows licenses these days, so I expect only a Windows logo, regardless of compatibility. I've definitely never seen logos of Linux or BSD on any machine anywhere, except ones that ship from companies like System76. So no I don't think it's sufficient to blame the customer here.
I dispute this notion that given no indication of Linux support on packaging, on the website, on the support forums, etc it is a "buyer beware" situation.
I've yet to see any computer list other operating systems on a retail box ... I've definitely never seen logos of Linux or BSD on any machine anywhere, except ones that ship from companies like System76. So no I don't think it's sufficient to blame the customer here.
You misunderstood what I wrote, apologies if I was not clear enough.
By "box" I am referring to the retail packing not the system case. Furthermore I also indicated that not seeing Linux on the packaging would cause me to check the website and forums. If **none of these** mention Linux then the expectation of Linux support on a laptop is bogus, laptops have a very troublesome history with Linux and there is no reasonable history of it just working as there is with desktops.
When one of our laptops dies, I'm paying someone to work, but they don't have a proper computer work on.
Or, you know, you could engage in good IT management practices for your organization, maintain proper warranty coverage and service contracts which gets hardware up and running the next day, coupled with a hot spare for emergencies, and a proper accounting of machine age as well as a purchasing timeline and budgeting.
Nah, your way sounds much more cost effective and efficient.
Sarcasm aside, the grandparent's way might very well be more efficient. Those measures you describe aren't free. They take time and effort and process and infrastructure. If you try to do enough accounting, you'll eventually have to hire some kind of accountant to do it, and they generally demand a salary of some sort. If we're talking about a small development shop here, it might actually be cheaper to just buy a new craptop every person-year.
I'm perfectly capable of replacing such a battery myself. However, I can only do so if I can purchase the part (or similar) for a reasonable price.
My experience with after market parts has been highly variable. I've had laptop screens that I could buy OEM for peanuts, while after-market computer-phone LCDs have been worth _almost_ as much as an entire second-hand handset.
Based on that experience, I'm not willing to roll the dice on whether or not I will be able to secure a "service only" replacement battery at some date 4-6 years from now.
I have Linux on every laptop and desktop I've bought in the last 5 years (including Macbook Pro's). If I can't install Linux on it (at least in dual boot or as a VM) then I don't buy it. That's one of my first questions. So, Microsoft, if you want me to continue to buy, administer, and develop on the Windows platform, then had better back off the Signature Edition requirement.
> Nah, your way sounds much more cost effective and efficient.
Yeah, about 100% more cost effective. Here's the cost of your suggestion
Dell's cheapest "business" laptop: $680
Next-day support, 3-year: $350
Salary, taxes & benefits, 1 bus. day: $900
Hot spare / replacement laptop: $680
Total: $2,610
Walmart:
Laptop: $500
Replacement $500 (future) - 3 years interest = $375
1 hour salary: $125
Total cost: $1000
The total cost of your suggestion is 160% higher.
You can flash your TV, your phone, and the ECU in your car. Canonical/Ubuntu wasn't the first to get linux running on a TV, BTW. I don't know about bluray players, but probably, since they do accept updates.
"Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
If you're so worried about down time then presumably you would have backup laptops in the closet ready to be loaded with the latest system backup of the current one being used by an employee... not just some old "POS" in there.
Mountain out of a molehill.
Linux needs a driver that supports this new RAID controller, then it should work fine.
Proprietary junk can take a while to get added to the kernel, so Linux laptop users should look elsewhere for the time being.
There is a huge difference between "not supported" and "locked out". Maybe those two are the same thing to clueless users, but they are very different situations for kernel developers.
---
According to the latest ruleset, this post should be modded as Vorpal Flamebait +5.
Entire season would have ended right at the generic "best buy"
Your story sounds like complete bullshit. I *highly* doubt the wifi didn't work right out of the box in the laptop -- and if it actually didnt, it was probably something you broke that you are leaving out of the story.
None of those are general purpose computers.
And nor is the laptop in question, IF it is locked down to only run Windows (if not and it is just a matter of Linux driver support then do your research better next time).
Was it sold as a general purpose computer or as a Windows computer?
The bios doesn't let you change from RAID mode to AHCI so the linux installers can see it. Some folks have said they even have issues doing a fresh install of Windows 10 on it.
Has nothing to do with MS Signature - otherwise, Dell, etc, systems running Signature Windows, would have the same issues.
And they don't
lol - you've fallen into the trap.
this isn't a Win10 issue, at all.
just a lack of drivers on Linux's part
I can see the case for saying this isn't MS's fault. But to end with this is ridiculous. Lenovo, not Linux, is to blame for their use of a proprietary RAID mode with no Linux driver support.
It will cost you significantly more to find a Linux PC with your desired specs, compared to buying a Windows PC and installing Linux on it.
Not really unless you are running some really strange hardware. For example my most recent main machine I just went and picked out the hardware I wanted based off of the specs and dual boot into windows or linux. The oddest thing in it was the combination PATA/SATA card that I bought because it was cheaper than getting a new DVD-RW drive and now that I have a bunch of hard drives in that box the extra SATA 3.0 ports are nice. The other slightly odd thing is that I have a 4 port serial card. I had more issues getting windows on that machine than getting linux on it and the Linux distro I am running is Slackware (13.37 at the time). That said the issue getting windows on it was I had to load the driver for the PATA/SATA card from USB during the install process. It was rather bizarre given that the windows install process had started from the drive that was connected to that card.
Even the most recent computer I bought doesn't care what OS I put on it. It was a Zotac Cl323 bare bones machine that I put a 120GB SSD and 8GB RAM into to make a beefy little pfSense firewall as it is a dual nic box. With the current version of pfSense the wireless in the thing doesn't work but it sounds like that will be fixed as the wireless works in the most current version of FreeBSD and pfSense is a version behind. Even there I don't care that the WiFi doesn't work because I won't use it on that machine and just disconnected the weird little card (it isn't a standard connection) as it saves a little on power consumption.
Time to offend someone
Another antitrust suit anyone? - for once again conspiring to lock competitors out of the marketplace.
First of all... this is a notebook, with a SINGLE drive. Why in the hell would it even need to operate in RAID mode?
Secondly, some people are saying that leaving out the option is simply to reduce support costs by something flipping the wrong settings. Seriously, it's a very rare case indeed where I see a non-power user in the BIOS at all, let alone changing settings on the RAID config, never mind that there are plenty of simpler ways to pooch the machine like locking it out with a boot password or just f***ing up something in the OS.
So people are discussing this thing not being able to disable the RAID setting. I'm wondering why it even has one on a single-drive notebook in the first place?!
I'm shocked that an allegedly sophisticated computer buyer did not check the machine he wanted could run the software wanted. Lenovo is hardly required to support all the operating systems in the world ever those beloved by computer jockeys.
When you can't get customers the normal way, you FORCE them to be customers! Yeah!
that the ordinary purpose for which the goods in question were sold do not include the installation of an alternative operating system, and they will have numbers to back that up.
STOP . AMERICA . NOW
[Fail] Best-of-breed desktop productivity applications for everyday business and home computer users
Could please drop OpenOffice.org and move to LibreOffice like everyone else ? Thank you very much.
Please let OOo die in its Oracle-sponsored death.
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
And totally incorrect news at that. What a load of crap.
The SSD isn't using any kind of RAID - it's an NVM Express SSD module and Linux doesn't have NVMe driver suport yet. It incorrectly reports it as RAID. This has been known about since at least July, http://askubuntu.com/questions...
Windows doesn't have NVMe driver support on installation media, either, which is why you have to download the NVMe driver from Microsoft if you want to reinstall Windows from a disc.
It's not just intentional sabatoge that can cause a lack of support. Newly release chipsets or other hardware often doesn't have initial Linux support.
In early December 2015 I built myself a Desktop using the latest Skylake Chipset (released 5th Aug 2015) and all I had to do was select "Other OS" and I installed Fedora 23 KDE spin without any problems.
In fact, if you follow news sites like Phoronix, you'd notice that Intel spends quite some resources making sure that their chipsets have release-day support in the mainstream kernel.
That shouldn't be a surprise, given that Intel's chipsets are also very popular on server, and those most frequently run some Linux distro - CentOS probably.
I can understand if graphics drivers are not available for a new graphics card
(and, as a side note, since the release of the Polaris GPU, AMD is starting to manage release-day support for their graphic cards too).
Unfortunately switching back to the PC port dropped signal which required me to reset the PC.
That *really* sounds like a HDCP (the copy-protection on HDMI connections) problem. The PC's GPU failing to renegotiate the HDCP with the monitor upon being switched back.
Putting a HDCP stripper between your PC and monitor (and eventually PS4 and monitor) should definitely and radically solve the problem.
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
Not in the premade OEM market it isn't/
The T series might be fine, but the G series are complete and udder garbage. The case simply disintegrated on my wife's. Be warned!
What did you think "G series" stood for?" Garbage series...
Anyone that talks about "running the linux install script" isn't someone I trust that much.
There is a huge difference between "Linux won't run well on this machine" vs "Linux won't install on this machine because it's actively being sabotaged".
I have a 3 year old notebook that I bought at Best Buy. I did not intend to install Linux on it. I still haven't. But if i did, i know it will at least install. Whether it will run right is another question. This thing took forever to get stable Windows drivers.
In the intervening time I've replaced the non-replaceable battery and upgraded the non-upgradeable proprietary SSD. 3 years ago the notion of a mainstream notebook that would actively fight me with any modification, especially a simple OS change, was simply ridiculous.
Now I guess i have to check for even more manufacturer and Microsoft trickery and dirty dealings before I buy anything. Been thinking about a new notebook but have been reluctant because of the massive fail that is Windows 10. Eventually I've gotta do something though and it just got more annoying.
I seriously like Lenovo's designs and would have considered one. Not now.
News of Lenovo screwing up with their BIOS not long ago was exactly what made me not buy some of the first Yoga hybrids of the line...
After a whole lot of news talking about malware, spyware and now this, I'm glad I didn't.
I dunno what Lenovo is trying to do with their stuff, but I'm staying away. At this point it's becoming pretty obvious that Lenovo has become some sort of experimental lab for horrible practices towards consumers. If it was one isolated case and they corrected their ways on the next product, fine.
But at this point it has become downright unforgivable. I don't want anything to do with their products, and I'm also not recommending it to anyone.
The most damning part is that news like these never make it to the general press. People are buying Lenovo laptops and hybrids without knowing these things.
So don't buy our computers, you fucking homo. We don't give a fuck.
Sincerely,
Lenovo.
That's what I did. Got a new spider from them. Then I took it to a business that does protective powder coatings. Replaced the broken corroded spider with the new coated spider myself. Even with the money I spent on the coating, it was way cheaper, if you don't count my time as particularly valuable. They wanted so much money for repairs that it made more sense to buy a new washer and throw the old one away than go through them.
LG's warranty is a joke. They're only trying to make it sound like they stand behind their products. They sure don't want to spend any of their own money actually repairing their shoddy engineering decisions.
Intellectual Property is a monopolistic, selfish, and defective concept. It is "tyranny over the mind of man"
Keep expecting a convicted monopoly abuser that escaped justice to change their core business model and compete fairly.
When the king heard the words of the Book of the Law he tore his robes.2Kings22:11
Perhaps the price difference is only at the low end and pre-built. At any rate I've regularly purchased computers with Windows just because they were cheaper.
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Add the RAID support. Problem solved.
i am actively moving away from Windows after the windows 10 crap. unlike 20 years ago, there are much more options now. Screw intel based hardware manufacters too. A raspberry pi can meet a lot of my needs
In the past when I had built machines it was usually the middle of the pack boxes that were more expensive to build your own. I don't know how the bottom end of the market has changed as I haven't built one of those machines in 14 years but when I last did it was close to $100 cheaper to build your own. Although that Zotac box I got is really what I would consider a bottom of the line box as it is has a Celeron processor, onboard graphics, a max ram capacity of 8GB, and one SATA connction, so does seem to fit the definition of a low end machine. However it has benefits in that it doesn't consume much power, is fanless, and has dual GigE ports which makes it an ideal candidate for a firewall box even if the CPU and max RAM is excessive for that it does allow pfSense to do a bunch of additional things and not slow down.
With my current main machine it was substantially cheaper to build what I needed especially since a lot of things needed to be at the top but I didn't need a high end GPU which if I got a pre-built system would have also been included. Add in that getting a pre-built machine that would accept 32GB RAM at the time would add substantially to the price, and yes for what I frequently do with that machine 32GB is needed.
Time to offend someone
And why, even if they were, would that be a justification for the claim a subject in the comment is stupid?
Doubly so since you've not only put an entire argument plus its subject in the subject. Which really could be stupid. Because it tells nobody what the point of reading the rest of your post, whatever it was, would be.
Where are the Regulators?
There you have it, dear Republicans; lack of enforced regulations will allow corporations to ever-increasingly abuse the markets.
Mind you, the Computer/IT industry is a bit of a complex 'beast' and a real challenge to regulate, especially by unqualified regulators.
Yet, it is obvious that regulations need to be in place.
And, regulations need to be in place to consider the public citizen as the foremost beneficiary.
e.g. An iPhone will be hard pressed to allow Android to be installed. Only savvy, enterprising folks would attempt this, yet they would already know that an iPhone was built for iOS.
In this case, the device should be marketed as a 'closed' (or locked) Microsoft Surface device, not a Lenovo laptop.
As per historical experiences, PCs (in general - non-Apple devices) are sold as devices onto which you can install virtually anything. This Lenovo case seems to be somewhat of a misleading marketing thing - intentional or not.
Self-importance and self-indulgence is the root of ALL evil.
The marketing of Microsoft is Awesome!
HELL HELL HELL
Your life Will Be !
LOL !!
If the guy's buying laptops off the shelf as needed, it isn't going to be much of an inconvenience to buy them ahead of time and put them somewhere. They don't take up that much space, and it removes the possibility that whatever the guy buys won't run Linux. I see that as a win. Actually accounting for machine age can be as simple as engraving the purchase date into the case, which may or may not be worthwhile (the idea that you replace the thing when it no longer works satisfactorily works too).
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
Linux has plenty of outstanding desktop productivity applications for everyday home computer usages, many arguably better than their most common Windows equivalents. Its business desktop performance is more of a mixed bag, but the competition is close if you are looking at apples-to-apples and not dragging legacy dependencies into the mix.
The simple, highly functional UI is present as well but it isn't uniform, and unfortunately the one project pushing for uniformity is both user-hostile and aims to purposefully use new paradigms so that a transition isn't straightforward (GNOME) and another high profile project (Unity) is equally troublesome (albeit not nearly as user-hostile.)
The problem thus isn't with capability but with branding and corporate backing. Red Hat and Canonical, two of the biggest names in LInux, both attempted to do their own separate Apple-like "Different is Better" thing whist simultaneously trying to do a Microsoft-like thing of making a desktop GUI that could double as a cell phone or tablet GUI (and nevermind the fact that trying to take on Android head-on is mostly a waste of time.) If the OSS world had rallied around XFCE or KDE, they would have faired better, but the bottom line is modern XFCE and KDE solutions do favorably compare to Windows in almost every area except when Window-only proprietary or legacy support is needed.
That isn't necessarily a trivial "except", but your summary of the situation on Linux was quite misleading. It's obscene to imply Windows 8-10 have a better UI than XFCE or KDE distros.
Let's see if I got this...
Microsoft has started this new initiative to partner with PC manufacturers to create "Windows Signature Edition PCs" which are, by definition, PCs that are intentionally marketed as being locked down, free of adware, trialware, etc., and tightly optimized to work with Windows. To accomplish this, they've pulled an Apple and made the Hardware/Software integration tighter than for a typical PC, meaning, they've locked down a tight set of narrow requirements and made the vendors adhere to that set. These VERY SAME MACHINES are also available in non-Signature Editions.
So, if you want to run Linux, buy the normal Yoga 900 instead of the one that only runs Windows. Problem solved. Easy peasy.
Perhaps it wasn't clear via the marketing that "Signature Edition" machines were Windows-only, but we all know it now. :) If the market wants this, Signature Edition PCs will become more pervasive and Windows-only boxes will become a norm, but my gut tells me that the OSS community will find a way in somehow. Or maybe the whole initiative will just flop.
The Federal Trade Commission should have been looking into Microsoft when they started forcing Windows 10 on customers by tricking them into downloading it or downloading and upgrading systems without user consent. Now they are locking down the PC system taking away consumer choice. They don't own the PC system and shouldn't have the right to lock it down forcing consumers to buy their OS. Will manufactures give consumers the option of buying laptops without any installed OS? My plans were to buy a new laptop and remove the Windows 10 and install Linux but now M$ is making this no longer an option.
Laptops that come with FreeDOS are a thing too, likely more common than pre-installed linux. There are no logos, but there's the most basic of support for the display, keyboard and storage without Windows at least.