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Silicon Valley Investors Call For California To Secede From the US After Trump Win (theguardian.com)
An anonymous reader quotes a report from The Guardian: As Donald Trump's shock election victory reverberated around Silicon Valley late on Tuesday night, some high-profile technologists were already calling for California to secede from the United States. The broader west coast is a stronghold for the Democrats, and significantly more politically progressive and racially diverse than large swathes of central U.S. California is also the biggest economy in the U.S. and the sixth largest in the world with a gross state product of $2.496 trillion for 2015, according to the IMF. The campaign for independence -- variously dubbed Calexit, Califrexit and Caleavefornia -- has been regarded as a fringe movement. But support was revitalized by influential Uber investor and Hyperloop co-founder Shervin Pishevar, in a series of tweets announcing his plans to fund a "legitimate campaign for California to become its own nation" -- posted even before the full results were in. A few hours later, Hillary Clinton conceded the election to Trump, and Pishevar told CNBC that he was serious about Calexit. "It's the most patriotic thing I can do," he said, adding that the resulting nation would be called New California. "We can re-enter the union after California becomes a nation. As the sixth largest economy in the world, the economic engine of the nation and provider of a large percentage of the federal budget, California carries a lot of weight," he said. Pishevar was supported by others in Silicon Valley. Angel investor Jason Calacanis said that California succession would be simple in the wake of both Brexit and a Trump win. Evan Low, a Democrat serving in the California state assembly, said that he'd support the introduction of a bill to start the independence process. The proposal illustrates the technology industry's frustration with Trump over his repeated criticisms of Silicon Valley companies. Trump has said in the past that he would make Apple build computers in the U.S. He also thinks Amazon CEO "Jeff Bezos bought the Washington Post to exert political power and avoid paying taxes, and claimed that Mark Zuckerberg's push for specialist immigration would actually decrease opportunities for American women and minorities." In July, 145 technology leaders wrote in an open letter about how "Trump would be a disaster for innovation."
This is a little dramatic.
I'll be these same people pointed and laughed when Texans said the same thing.
-- Will program for bandwidth
That's rich.
DaveyJJ
It has to suck after you make all these of those "donations" and get nothing back in return.
They are doing everything, EVERY. GOD. DAMNED. thing they said would be unacceptable for Trump supporters to do if Hillary won.
They have NO self awareness, NONE.
A United States Congress without the wacko democratic representatives (Pelosi) and senators (Feinstein) from California in it can only be a massive improvement for the rest of us.
Let California secede and try to pay for all of it's socialist programs and "porous borders" through it's failing tax base and deficit-ridden state budgets. How long will that last?
If California becomes a country, presumably one with an open southern border and an H-1B peonage system of its own, it would have to implement some form of defense department. Would it have electric dirigible aircraft, wind-powered missiles and a Department Of Hugging It Out?
You pushed for Clinton, even though Sanders was a better candidate. What did you expect?
Be seeing you...
Trump would throw a wrench into their cheap labor and displacing jobs. Threatens their business models.
I was under the impression that the secession from the Union thing was settled back in the 1860's. If I recall a few million Americans died in the process.
How about Wow, a double win! I'm all for it, as long as they take their share of the national debt with them.
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
SV already seceded by hiding $2 Trillion dollars outside of the USA despite living off of incredible amounts of tax assistance and infrastructure.
CA wouldn't know how to survive without tax welfare.
As much as I despise Donald Trump, seeing these haughty Progressives eat a buffet of crows warms the cockles of my heart.
For the last 90 years, the Ivy League-armed technocrats of the Progressive apparatus have waged a relentless war against state sovereignty in their march to greater political and economic consolidation in D.C. and NYC. Only the "leadership" from the PhDs in D.C. matter, plebs. We'll control your healthcare, collude with the media to control the agenda, concentrate more power in the unelected bureaucracy that grows like a weed in Northern Virginia, and then call anyone who supports states' rights (aka federalism aka competitive sovereignty) a racist or neo-Confederate.
Fuck you. You made this bed. Now lie in it. Enjoy Trump turning the gun of the federal leviathan you created right in your face. Applauding for Obama's "I'm going it alone" screed when the Democrats lost Congress doesn't seem like a wise precedent now does it? But let's be honest: you only like democracy when it goes your way, otherwise you pout.
By the way, these same Silicon Valley assholes and California Democrats have made fun of Northern California's "State of Jefferson" secession movement for decades.
Seeing the Obama elitists go down in flames in Congress and the executive puts a big ol' smile on my face. The next blow against these Silicon Valley fucks will be the bursting of the zero percent interest rate bubble blown by the Fed (another wonderful gift from the Progressives), which will wipe out the GAAP non-profitable bullshit "app" companies in the Valley. (This is probably why they hate Trump, though: he's mentioned that we're in a bubble and it's the Fed's fault.)
Truthfully, though, the Democratic party and the country would be better off if they did leave. As long as the Dems in the Bay Area foist Pelosi, Boxer, and Harris on the rest of the republic, the party will be repugnant to most of the Rust Belt and places like New Hampshire, where citizens still value freedom and being left the fuck alone.
... some high-profile technologists were already calling for California to secede from the United States.
It's nice to see they've remained well-rooted in reality.
#DeleteChrome
The US Civil War was fought to decide this issue. States cannot secede from the US. Investors aren't stupid, so what are they trying to show? That they think we must be? That they'll throw money at anything drawing attention to their displeasure with the president-elect?
That making a hyperbolic proposition as an opening is just part of the art of the deal?
Take off, every Hoser
" despite living off of incredible amounts of tax assistance and infrastructure."
= You have no idea of the math involved. SV has contributed many hundreds of times more than it has received in government assistance, unless you have your official GOP calculator handy with some actual facts. Compared to the GOP's pet coal/oil industry or almost anything else, SV has been wildly profitable per invested dollar. You're ridiculously uninformed, but that appears to be in fashion now, good for you!
Wow.
The protest in NYC is pretty big.
Regarding California, after it seceeds, where will they get water?
Shervin Pishevar, born in Iran. You know going forward with this idea he is only helping to strengthen trump's supporters idea that we are being invaded by Asians, Latinos and middle-easterners that care nothing about our history or country??
And reports of teargas being used on protesters in Oakland!
It's going to be a long night.
(After weeks of being told to accept the election outcome, anything else is an attack on democracy. Sheesh!)
1) Restricting immigration such that it benefits American Citizens? Issue.
2) Renegotiating trade deals and implementing trade tariffs to benefit American workers? Issue.
3) Rebuilding our nation's crumbling infrastructure and putting American Citizens to work? Issue.
4) Stopping all foreign wars and provocations of major world powers like Russia? Big fucking issue unless you like getting nuked.
The list goes on... The issues don't get much bigger than this, except in fantasy land of "climate change" or "white privilege".
Of course the whole US back then had a population less than California today.
The working-age male population in the South was worse than decimated.
It turns out that it is easier to secede from the Soviet Union than the United States. The Hotel California can never leave.
Is this what people do now? One thing fails to go their way and they have a hissy fit and hold their breath until they turn blue like a 3-year-old? I don't expect much from leftists, but honestly, this is what they do.
I have sat through 11 presidential elections, including the elections of notable piles of shit Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton, and most worthless of all, Barack Obama, and yes, it was disgusting and sickening to me, too, but no one I knew had a meltdown over it.
A nation of fucking precious snowflake babies.
Anything posted in the immediate aftermath of the election is part of coping, so I take this sort of thing with a great heaping helping of salt. The right wing did it when Obama was elected, after all, and outside some squawking about birth certificates nothing came of it.
Whether or not it sputters out in this case depends on what happens in the first three to six months after Trump takes office. If he ends up more moderate than he was on the campaign trail, then things will almost certainly continue on as usual (so to speak). We'll probably see some regressive tax policy changes and erosion of various minority and women's rights, but nothing too catastrophic. The poor will get poorer, the rich will get richer, and the environment will continue to get worse at the same rate it is today.
Alone, those things aren't enough to spur serious action.
If, however, he manages to convince the Senate and Congress to go along with some of his wackier campaign promises, then there's a very real chance things could get serious quickly.
- If he trashes too many social support nets, then all bets are off. If you and your family are starving, you'll do pretty much anything to get food, and if it happens in bulk you have the spark of revolution on your hands. Throw a heavy-handed response to rioting and you have martyrs and a circle of escalating violence.
- If he makes enough blatantly discriminatory changes and gets them through a stacked Supreme Court, he could provoke enough ire to prompt serious nonviolent secession talk. If, for example, he bans all Muslims or Mexicans from entering the country, and his ban survives a supreme court challenge, California will look long and hard at the idea of leaving because there's a large enough majority of people that don't agree with that kind of action here to support that.
If all he does is chip away at the progress made in the last ten or twenty years, he'll be fine. If he starts taking a pickaxe to things that have been part of America for the last sixty or seventy, all bets are off.
Never underestimate the stupidity inherent in all human beings.
Correction: It is far NorCal and South Oregon's secession petition. There is a whole article on wikipedia on it and the Cascadia movement in general (NorCal to Southern British Columbia as a single cultural, political, economic bloc.)
Most of the problems worldwide are due to consolidation. The problem is people are talking about dividing under un-amicable circumstances which would cause problems for future defense pacts necessary to ensure the newfound economic blocs would not get steamrolled by outside parties (notably Russia/China at this time, but also Brazil, the EU, etc in the future.)
What really needs to happen is a constitutional congress in the us, a redrafting of the US constitution for the current world, as an a side effect of that, a renewal of incorporation for states that wish to, allowing states that thing they can go it alone the opportunity to gracefulyl bow out without the hassles of the current method of secession. Who knows, maybe with the stars freed on the flag the rest of the US could incorporate Puerto Rico and Guam as official U.S. states.
*RANT ON*
Its getting tiring, this shrill end of the world, he/she said something bad so I have to cry now nonsense. I could say something coherent about words not hurting but i'm ranting so another time.
And then, when I read an article like this all I can think about is 'them'(and if I wasn't ranting I would say all people who dont get their way, not just 1 side or another), saying 'BOO HOO, we didn't get our way so now we are going to kick down the sand castle and take all our toys'.
Sound like a bunch of smug self righteous children, grow up.
200+ years of history and not everyone got their way every time, sometimes you have to play the long game and put in the real work.
*RANT OFF*
That felt good, thanks for listening.
California is a NET CONTRIBUTOR to the federal government.
For the typical /. reader, this means Californians pay more in federal taxes than they get back from the federal government.
Somebody has to pay for the food stamps all those met addicted red state degenerates receive.
Have you seen the California budget lately? No, CA does not give more than it receives. The state is in massive debt, has massive regulations, and businesses can't seem to leave the state fast enough.
Oddly enough, Liberal Jerry Brown changed things a bit http://www.economist.com/news/...
So anyhow, now that your ideology is in complete control, it's going to sound pretty funny when you still try to blame them damn libtards for every problem. Let em go or kick them out.
I fully supported Texas seceding, as I do California.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
Just give California back to the Mexicans.
"The average reporter we talk to is 27 years old......They literally know nothing." - Ben Rhodes
You know it is up to each state to decide how to apportion their Electoral College votes. Only two states use proportional voting. The other 48 have "winner take all".
That's what doesn't seem fair, not the Electoral College system itself.
That said, there is a procedure to change the system, but it involves getting 38 states to agree to start the process...
This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
A United States Congress without the wacko democratic representatives (Pelosi) and senators (Feinstein) from California in it can only be a massive improvement for the rest of us.
Let California secede and try to pay for all of it's socialist programs and "porous borders" through it's failing tax base and deficit-ridden state budgets. How long will that last?
Pay??? You do realize that California, along with almost every other democratic stronghold, contributes huge amounts of tax money to poorer states? Californians would have significantly more money on their budget, enough that they'd be able to implement their policies and probably cut taxes at the same time. I agree though, if the west and northeast coasts succeed, we'd all get an opportunity to finally see how the two parties float their sides, and I personally wouldn't mind to see my taxes support my own state, not some farmer in Nebraska.
"Set a man a fire, he'll be warm for the rest of the night. Set a man afire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life."
I can't believe what gigantic babies they are. What, did they expect that for the rest of their natural lives, that they would win every single election, ever? Apparently so.
And now, that their side lost, instead of moving forward, they are bawling like infants and want to quit. We saw this with Brexit as well. Highly educated people, professionals, and they just pitched a shit-fit because they lost. I couldn't believe the rage that Ph.D's were capable of. But they sure can lecture everyone else about how we have to accept it when things go their way.
Democracy is awesome.
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
If Texas didn't secede after Obama got elected, I am sure a bunch of spoiled silicon valley plutocrats won't either. They should buy more electric cars or whatever is far-left equivalent to guns&ammo.
If you supported Trump kindly go fuck yourself, and I'll take the moderation results of this post. If not then I apologize to you, but not the man who decided to run a campaign based on sowing as much hatred as absolutely possible.
This is what happens when you run that kind of campaign.
We didn't protest when Barack Obama was elected. Twice.
Here's some observations about the protests:
You're being manipulated.
You'd better do some research. California is one of ONLY 3 states to give more to the US federal government than it receives. Without California's MASSIVE tech and Agricultural industries the US GDP will take a double digit drop, creating an economic hit similar to the great depression and the banking crash. If California were a nation it would rank 6th in the world GDP.
https://www.google.com/#q=stat...
https://wallethub.com/edu/stat...
http://www.motherjones.com/pol...
All that said I can't argue the wacko part, nor would the US government even begin to allow one of the states to succeed from the union. That was established a long time ago by the confederate states, Texas, and Utah.
errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
I believe the count was closer to 600,000.
Yes, about 600k soldiers died, but the majority of those were from disease rather than battlefield deaths, which was normal before antibiotics.
The secession question was settled in April of 1865, on the battlefield at Appomattox, when the Army of Northern Virginia failed to break out of the siege of Petersburg. Joe Johnson surrendered the Army of Tennessee a week later. And that was the end of that.
But also against idiots like this doing it as a wah wah against Trump becoming president.
America as a defense pact makes sense. America as a single governing entity hasn't made sense since it was still the 13 colonies, and makes even less sense today between the vehement ideological differences across different parts of the US, the corruption and graft at all levels of federal government. All the pork barrel spending and incompetent programs that have resulted, in large part due to backroom deals to 'make it happen' while driving local industry with component manufacture that should really be consolidated into the same geographical region, etc.
California or the Cascadia region splitting off into its own state(s)/country could be exactly what this country needs. Cutting off both federal aid to the western blue states, as well as cutting off those states' tax base from the US economy might be a wake up call for both sides over what advantages the other offers, while also helping to shake up a number of issues due to complacency and corruption. Lack of federal spending in California means the interstate highways and other roads will need to locally maintained, something California is entirely capable of, but which has been neglected due to a preference for federal funds (at the expense of other things like drinking/smoking age, which may stay where they are, but were in part raised in order to keep getting federal funding.)
An added bonus: separation of California from the US could be used to segregate the western and eastern seaboard entertainment industries, whose decline has been in part due to media companies gobbling up industry members on both coasts. If secession takes place and restrictions are put in place, we may see a new influx of creativity in the industry which hasn't been seen since the move west to avoid the patents in the early part of the last century.
Downsides to it is less trust in the US Dollar, political uncertainty worldwide, and the possibility of Russia/China taking it as an opportunity to project military force while the weakened US is distracted.
Personally I think it is still worth the risk, especially if California undoes some of the shortcomings the Clinton/Bush era feds did with decommissioning bases in California (notably the entire Sacramento region, which had dozens of army, reserve, and air force bases sold off to private parties. Including all but one in the capital!
Errm... you realize Federal aid is going with California, yes? If the east and west segregate, DC isn't going to side with the midwest and south, I think that's pretty obvious. If almost all of the states that are the financial backbone of the federal government leave, and the federal government itself has no connection with those parts of the country, why on earth would it stay behind?
"Set a man a fire, he'll be warm for the rest of the night. Set a man afire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life."
California actually pays the federal government more money in taxes than it gets back in benefits, so... it would do fine, actually. It's not a lot more - I think in 2014 California got back 95 cents for every dollar in taxes - but it's still close enough that California could take over paying for federal programs itself without any significant disruptions in services or programs.
Never underestimate the stupidity inherent in all human beings.
It's pretty close to even, IIRC - I think in 2014 it was something like California getting back about 95% of what it sent in taxes.
Never underestimate the stupidity inherent in all human beings.
Florida wanted to do the same thing after the last election. Yeah, go ahead, and send Cali into an even deeper financial crisis. Property values will crash and your currency won't be worth shit. On the east coast, look at property values of the south compared to that of the north and you'll see the south is STILL paying for trying to secede from the union. Clearly Cali has been smoking weed longer than it's been legalized.
And quit your bitching. You all rallied behind Hillary waving signs that said "stronger together." Put your fucking money where your mouth is and heed the advice coming from that liberal-Jesus Obama when he says support the Donald. It is done. Likewise, Donald stood on stage and said he wants to be president for everyone - call him on it.
Chewbacon
The Bible is like Wikipedia: written by a bunch of people and verifiable by questionable sources.
California is the 8th largest economy in the world. Jesus Christ the political right is populated by some real halfwits.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
Since California gives more to the Federal government in taxes than they get back in benefits, you could say that their "share of the national debt" is negative. We would owe them a rebate, in fact.
You are welcome on my lawn.
Yes, I get it. You don't like Trump. I don't like Trump either.
There was a lot of bluster and bitching but Texas didn't really try to secede from the Union when Obama was elected or re-elected and they dislike Obama as much as you dislike Trump.
Stop throwing a fucking tantrum and grow up.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
Paywalled, and written with an intentional bias. Considering we have the highest taxes in the US, a 51Billion dollar budget deficit, at least 400billion in unfunded liabilities, and a 400billion dollar debt, all of the various debt and liabilities from UC. Then you need to you take away the Federal tax funds to the various cities, education, military bases and ports, various science funding and NASA, etc... that Budget goes down by 1/3rd.
More simply put, tax dollars going to the Federal side from CA return to Government projects in CA. The article is only counting certain types of assistance spending on people.
You are not paying me to be an analyst so the numbers are rough, but certainly California has great financial issues.
-The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.
A better plan would be to break California into multiple smaller states (say 10) based on population centers to increase the number of left leaning US Senators.
Can't do that.
New States may be admitted by the Congress into this Union; but no new States shall be formed or erected within the Jurisdiction of any other State; nor any State be formed by the Junction of two or more States, or Parts of States, without the Consent of the Legislatures of the States concerned as well as of the Congress.
Article IV, Section 3, Clause 1
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
Reports of mass arrests at the Trump hotel in NYC.
Also... looking at the images people are tweeting during the riots is pretty interesting.
I didn't know there was such a thing as a Trump sex doll.
TIL
Yes, California still sends more tax money to the Federal government than it gets back in benefits.
By government-dependency rankings, it is near the bottom. 2016 numbers:
https://wallethub.com/edu/stat...
You are welcome on my lawn.
No, Sv has debased an American work force in the name of profit while claiming to be providing a service.
Calexit? Over your dead body. Its time we break the sillycons and take their assets until their tax bill is paid in full.
I rather like my job designing chips, doing cryptography, setting international standards, traveling to nice places, occasionally lecturing at colleges.
Silicon Valley didn't debase that job. Silicon Valley enabled that job.
I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
The federal government doesn't own those refineries, so why should they have to go? You haven't thought this through.
And since the US government would still need those Pacific-facing bases, they can rent them from the California government, just like they do in Germany, Italy, Japan, South Korea and all the places those other foreign bases are located. The US needs California a lot more than California needs the US government. Instead of having to pay for those military bases through federal taxes, they could become pure profit centers for California.
You are welcome on my lawn.
Or the tech companies could move to Canada. The Ottawa valley as well as the Kitchener-Waterloo has a lot of tech startups as well as established companies who are well established. Both of the areas have well respected Canadian universities resident there so the is a good talent pool. And there is the Toronto/Mississauga area which offers the same. Canada has a lot to offer, no Trump-like entities in our political spectrum (thank God) so its something to think about. We would love to have you here, to be part of our sophisticated and affluent society. Just saying :)
We the North :)
Clive DaSilva Email: clive.dasilva@gmail.com Ubuntu 18.10 Kernel 4.18
How about Wow, a double win! I'm all for it, as long as they take their share of the national debt with them.
At 17.8 Trillion dollars and 37 million Californians, that would only be about $54,000 per person. After they pay for that, then increase their State taxes by 32.4% to make up for what the fed adds to their general revenue, let alone others like military or border security and let them leave.
I wonder how long a country would last where guns are banned, everything causes cancer, and safe spaces become a way of life when Uncle Sam won't back them up.
The national of $17T divided by 300M Americans means that the national debt is *already* $54,000 per person, Californians (and residents of all states) *already* owe that money, so seceding from the USA wouldn't add to that burden.
Since California wouldn't need to extend its military presence overseas, military costs would be a fraction of what the USA spends now.
make up for what the fed adds to their general revenue
Why do you think the federal government pays more to California in benefits than California pays in taxes? Hint: they don't -- it's mostly the red states that receive more federal money than they pay in taxes.
when Uncle Sam won't back them up.
Uncle Sam has no choice - if an aggressor tried to occupy California, the USA would have to protect them, or that aggressor would be right at their doorstep.
I'm wondering then why we have West Virginia...
You are quite wrong - look at the real numbers Californian's pay more in taxes proportionally than they receive back in benefits from the federal govt.
It's the bible belt states, Trump's big supporters, who really suck at the teat of federal government, paid for by those very people in California you deride
REF: http://www.theatlantic.com/bus...
I'd like to see Nebraska cut the food off to California, and those other Western states cut off the water.
I'd like to see that, too. If we're not growing food for the whole nation, we'll need a whole lot less water. The majority of the produce eaten in the USA is produced in California. Our share of foods you eat ranges from about 50% to about 95%, if you put corn aside. Just corn mind you, not wheat or rice.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
No, it was settled in Texas v. White https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_v._White. States may not unilaterally secede but may as part of a multilateral process.
This is California. You're Canada. Forget about the culture shock, it's the weather shock that will kill us off!
As another poster mentioned, it's been done with West Virginia, but I think California would have much bigger shit than the law to deal with if it split off:
- Most of its essential resources come from neighboring states. Hell, Arizona alone (which Californian politicians often scoff at) provides California with 25% of its electricity. I'm curious how Silicon Valley would deal with that. Perhaps draw more power away from the more rural regions and charge them more money? Speak of which...
- Most of the landmass of California is in fact very red. They'd probably be able to take the major cities with them, but I can pretty much guarantee that the majority of the residents outside of those areas wouldn't be on board with this. But what do we need all of those rednecks for right? Well, you need farmland and farmers to eat.
This shit needs to just stop. Every god damn election there's this stupid talk about either going to Canada or seceding, and it's all a bunch of stupid bullshit, and I'm sick of it.
Besides, Shervin Pishevar is a first generation Iranian immigrant. Coming over here and then just demanding that we split up the country just because he doesn't like its politics is a real asshole move, and it's exactly this kind of asshole attitude that got an asshole like Trump elected.
The echo chamber is strong in this one.
Look at a county map of election results. Oops, there are parts of California where Trump got 50%, 60% or 70% of the votes.
Go and Cexit, it'll be spectacular to watch.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
Just because your middle class ass is OK with the status quo doesn't mean those who are trampled upon should just suck it up.
You entitled fucking twat.
Here's what he was talking about.
And yes, I'm an entitled fucking twat for thinking that immigrants shouldn't change our culture.
I'm not trying to be rude or attack you but I just don't understand those claims. I honestly feel a business as usual candidate like Hillary, which admittedly is not my favorite concept, is FAR superior to some one with zero experience, a clear temperament problem, a crush on America's nation state enemies, threatens to sue anyone who questions him while threatening to loosen America's libel laws and thus reign in freedom of the press, and a tax plan that is clearly designed to enrich the wealthy while bankrupting the country.
I honestly can't think of a more objectionable candidate than Trump.
I ignore Anonymous Coward posts. If you want to discuss something, that's awesome. Log in.
Printed signs in the span of a day? You're right, that's some sci-fi stuff right there! There's no way 21st technology could make a printed sign in less than a weak!
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Hell, Arizona alone (which Californian politicians often scoff at) provides California with 25% of its electricity. I'm curious how Silicon Valley would deal with that.
We'd probably turn the nukes back on. San Onofre has been sitting idle for half a decade now. We'd probably invent new nuclear reactors, too; get some molten salt thorium reactors up and running. Barring that, Mr. Musk lives in Cali, so maybe we'd just get Solar Panels on every roof and batteries in every garage. Or turn to tidal, since we have all that coastline to play with.
Most of the landmass of California is in fact very red.
Most of the landmass of EVERY place is very red, because that tends to be the space without any people in it. Either farmers (as you point out) with a single family living on 100+ acres, or far far right conservatives living in the boonies of the deserts or high up in the Appalachian mountains with all the guns they can muster and the nearest neighbor 10 miles away. Liberals tends toward cities and other people, where they make things like computers, medicine, solar panels and interracial porn.
This signature is false.
A picture of a guy and a megaphone is indicative of massive pre planning? /me shakes his head.
I honestly don't know what to say to some one who makes that claim. I don't think there's anything I can say that will refute your conspiracy theories in your mind.
I ignore Anonymous Coward posts. If you want to discuss something, that's awesome. Log in.
California's agricultural crops are not the full picture, or not as you may think. from TFA: "California is also the biggest economy in the US and the sixth largest in the world with a gross state product of $2.496tn for 2015, according to the IMF."
Your fancy "grain fed cows" and amber fields of grain aren't really squat compared to the ~$2.5 $$ Trillion $$ GSP $$ of California now, don't ya think?
I think Calif would be just fine as it's own sovereign nation without being sucked dry by the new 3 ring shit show we just got handed.
"Suppose you were an idiot...and suppose you were a member of Congress...but I repeat myself." Mark Twain
On the bright side with Trump in the White House nothing will be done to mitigate global warming. It's a long game, but I can assure you, moving to Canada help me to keep my sanity.
Build nukes. In California. Riiight. Add to the fact that building anything in that benighted state requires ten years of "environmental impact" studies and bribing of the California Coastal Commission...
This secession talk is a wee bit childish. Here's what Hillary Clinton had to say this morning about a Trump presidency:
"Donald Trump is going to be our president. We owe him an open mind and a chance to lead."
I hope her supporters take a cue from her and start behaving with some class and dignity.
I'm wondering then why we have West Virginia...
The state of West Virginia (aka Kanawha), was formed when Virginia seceded from the union prior to the Civil war. During that time there were 2 legislatures that claimed to represent all of Virginia. The legislature that didn't support succession voted to approve to split the state and this was approved by the US Congress compliant with Article 4 of the constitution.
In the case of California, I don't think the legislators that represent the central counties in the CA state legislature, nor do I think the US Congress would approve splitting the state. This comes up in Texas all the time, and the same thing is likely the limiting factor. In any case, it seems totally unlikely that the Congressional representatives of small states would ever agree to splitting a large state to help it gain more representatives in the Senate.
Lets see.. California takes relatively little in federate aid (https://ballotpedia.org/California_state_budget_and_finances), returns more to the federal government (https://wallethub.com/edu/states-most-least-dependent-on-the-federal-government/2700), and tries to insure ALL its citizens have at least a safety net. And given that most of the "poor" states are republican (the notable exception being Texas).. Texas, CA and NY could leave the US would tank.
California's federal aid goes towards programs required by the feds, but as those programs would end (or be selectively implemented if desired), their budgetary requirements would shift. And as an independent nation, it would be free to seek other interests and partnerships with other countries to make up that shortfall. In short, its not impossible for it to depart. it would take some planning and sacrifice in the near term, but definitely possible.
God made the Idiot for practice, and then He made the School Board -- Mark Twain Look for http://Thebar.steelbeachca
Well he did say "This will be Brexit Plus Plus Plus"
This shit needs to just stop. Every god damn election there's this stupid talk about either going to Canada or seceding, and it's all a bunch of stupid bullshit, and I'm sick of it.
Aren't we all? The thing is, the only way to stop it is by reaching out across the many, many cracks that break up American society and start listening to the views that you disagree strongly with - and start taking them in in some way. And that goes for all sides - the nation is not going to come together, if the angry, white working class won't take in the fact that there are close to 50% of the population that don't agree with them, and the same goes for the libertarians, pro-lifers, gun-lobbyists and all the other, narrow interest groups with extreme views: as long as everybody is uncompromising and distrustful of everybody else, things can only get worse.
And to be honest, when it comes to California - I can't see how that is much different from Brexit. If UK can go it alone, despite all the very close links to Europe, then so can California. But just as Brexit is a profoundly stupid thing to do, it also won't be a good idea for California to leave the US, because it won't actually solve the fundamental problem: that everybody is going tribal and are (almost) prepared to start killing the others over things that could be solved by compromise. That sort of uncompromising outlook on life is what rips apart nations in the Middle East and other places, and one would hope Americans can at least be better than that.
The whining, crying and pointless protesting over someone you didn't like winning is more than a little pathetic.
You all knew the stakes and rules of the game going into it. How many of the whiners did anything meaningful to build consensus for different candidates? How many of them even bothered to mingle with commoners long enough to vote themselves?
I spent election night rooting for Trump to lose. Now I find myself laughing at the chorus of entitled "dumb fucks" who have the guts to publically bitch about Trump wanting to moderate their own spigots of cheap labor.
Asswipe, the Alien and Sedition Acts wouldn't speak to this situation. But no one worth mentioning doubts the invalidity of the Acts under the First Amendment. See, e.g., New York Times v. Sullivan (376 U.S. 254, 276) (1964) "Although the Sedition Act was never tested in this Court, the attack upon its validity has carried the day in the court of history" (Moreover, the Sedition Act expired by it own terms on March 3 1801.)
The law is not an ass. No really.
By what measure? Landmass? No. Population? No. Economy? No.
Half the California landmass is blue. That's about the size of Germany right there. The red half of CA can simply be compensated by giving them a tarif to grow food for the blue half. The blue half won't be paying trillions on military and other federal BS so it would be a small price to pay to make the whole state blue. We all know the red half mostly cares about money, so we would give them that for living their agrarian lifestyle. Eventually, the robots will farm for the blue half anyway. The universal basic income will take care of people's needs.
Actually there is a great deal of support for splitting the state out in the red counties. They would love to have their views and votes matter again, instead of LA SF and Silicon Valley ruling the state and running it ever further into ruin.
I'm too lazy to compose a creative sig.
West Virginia separated from a confederate state. It's was definitely a bizarre situation since the Union didn't recognize the confederacy as a legitimate government. I suspect it was simply the pragmatic choice to take territory from a hostile state and a fuck you to Virginia. I hope someone more knowledgeable in civil war history can chime in with some more details. In my opinion, it's a different time and a vastly different situation, and I don't think our incoming government would be too eager to add more blue states to the Union!
"California is one of ONLY 3 states to give more to the US federal government than it receives."
Not even close. https://visualeconomics.credit...
California is one of 17 states, not just 3, that gives more than it receives. California ranks 8th among those 17. It is not one of only three, it's not even in the top three.
"You'd better do some research."
So should you.
I'm serious - I am tired of defending Trump but I'm so tired of lies and the lying liars who tell them.
He also thinks Amazon CEO "Jeff Bezos bought the Washington Post to exert political power
There's no other reason to buy a dying newspaper.
and avoid paying taxes,
And it's probably decent for tax writeoffs as it's unlikely to be making money.
and claimed that Mark Zuckerberg's push for specialist immigration would actually decrease opportunities for American women and minorities.
He's absolutely correct. There's a reason that Facebook founders were willing to throw $20M at Hillary at the last minute to try to get her elected. By the way - remember the timing of that? When everybody thought Hillary had it wrapped up? Given the rampant collusion between Clinton, big media, and big business it seems pretty clear that she and her team knew she had a loss on her hands a couple of months ago and hoped an extra 8 digit slush fund would help.
I'm sure Lessig was just *furious* when he found out about it <eyeroll>.
Do you have ESP?
Fucking hell guys, no wonder racism and sexism is so rife over there. A lot of you guys seem to be most interested in figuring what group a person is and then using that alone to determine friend or foe. It's akin to two little kids in the park both shouting "no, you're the poopypants" That's how the rest of the world sees it. Fucking cut it out and grow up. For the good of all of us.
Wanna buy a shirt?
https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
The Tax Foundation only had 2005 numbers available when I bookmarked the page a month or two ago. And i know things have changed since then, but none of your links provide the full picture, so I"m going to post this one for some historical data:
http://taxfoundation.org/artic...
As of 2005, the States that paid more to the Federal Government than the spending they received in return were:
New Jersey
Nevada
Connecticut
New Hampshire
Minnesota
Illinois
Delaware
California
New York
Colorado
Massachusetts
Wisconsin
Washington
Michigan
Oregon
Texas
and Florida
Rhode Island was break even.
The rest of the states, at that point, were the recipients of that taxation.
And it did so permanently. Once you become a state, you can't "unjoin", secede or leave. End of story.
Now if the government would actually start charging people with treason for saying this kind of crap and prosecute them and make them look at real jail time in a real prison, that might just put an end to it. Even former Texas governor Rick Perry was talking succession smack talk for a while. The state of Georgia passed a law 4 years ago that the current governor signed that says if the state legislature votes to nullify a federal law or executive order because they decided that it wasn't constitutional, the citizens and the state of Georgia don't have to obey said law or order. That's not succession but it's close. And the Obama administration didn't even threaten anybody over that.
My heart burns for the oppressed billionaires.
What part of "shall not be infringed" is so hard to understand?
Silicon Valley can just threaten to cut off the US's Netflix, and the whole thing will be over without a shot being fired.
You are welcome on my lawn.
Okay, looks like it’s time to dust off my post-election-day secession rant.
The dividing lines in this country are as clear as a jigsaw puzzle. But like a jigsaw puzzle, the pieces are so tightly interlocked that there’s no way to pull it apart without wrecking everything.
Let’s start by ignoring what the Constitution says: if somebody’s splitting off from the US, its laws are not theirs to follow. Never mind legality or morality, let’s just ask, can parts of the US secede without killing millions and impoverishing us all? Those are the stakes.
Borders. Let’s take the Northeast as an example, from Maine to New York. Solid blue states, easy enough to make a nice country out of. Well, except for most of New Hampshire. And upstate New York. And central Massachusetts and inland Maine, and Staten Island, and the town I live in near Boston... if secession is on the table, what’s to stop these regions from seceding from their states? Suddenly your country looks more like a federation of city-states, surrounded by hostile rural territory. America’s internal border is fractal, from the national level right down to individual bedrooms. If you insist on contiguous state borders, what are your options? Call out the state militia to occupy rebellious Staten Island? Partition and forced emigration? Ask India and Pakistan how that worked out.
But let’s suppose you get the territory bit worked out. What about the national debt? If a breakaway republic leaves the US without taking its fair share of the national debt, it’s effectively stolen trillions of dollars. If it gets away with it, everyone else will break away too, the debt will be abandoned, and every T-bill on the planet will become worthless. That’s $18 trillion of investment wiped out, a scale of debt write-off at least times worse than the mortgage crisis of 2007, a hundred times worse than Greece. This is your social security money, your pension, wiped out instantly. And if a breakaway republic *does* take its share of debt, a small young unstable nation isn’t going to be offered the same interest rates the USA gets. It'll immediately find itself in a Greek-style debt crisis.
The federal government owns a lot of stuff, and some of it is hard to move. What happens to the mineral rights, national parks, military bases, federal buildings, and post offices in a breakaway republic? Will it pay the US fair market value for them? Because they can’t afford to. If they seize them by force, is the US justified in reclaiming its property violently? Speaking of violence, what happens to the aircraft carriers and F-22s? Who gets the nukes? I don’t want them, but if I’m going to share a continent with a bunch of nuclear-armed belligerent xenophobic nationalists, I might need some.
With this much to fight over, it’s clear that two divided Americas would be hostile to each other, possibly at war, but each would have lots of citizens who sympathize with the other side. The history of minority groups who sympathize with the enemy is long and bloody. Iraqi Shias. Japanese-Americans during World War 2. Rwanda.
Dividing a country turns its internal conflicts into external conflicts. Internal conflicts can be solved through politics, but the main way nations solve external conflicts is through economic and/or literal war. It’s naive to believe that partition would be peaceful: civil war, forced emigration, or global economic collapse are pretty likely. Maybe you think the risk of these is low enough that it’s worth a shot. I don’t.
First generation immigrants demanding to split the country. Hmmm where have we heard that before? Oh I remember!!!! Remember the Alamo!!!!
**Life is too short to be serious**
Silicon Valley may have hidden 2 trillion but that is out of 20 Trillion it has paid in as taxes during the last 10 years. California is large enough to be self sustaining. It is a large exporter of food so even if the Central valley farmers want to secede back California would still have food. Plus even though the Central Valley farmers vote Republican most of them are not white supremacists - heck there is a large population of Sikh farmers who migrated down from Canada before it was legal for non whites to become citizen (1965) and married latino women (who were here before California was in the US). They own most of the fruit orchards in Central Valley. These may be conservatives on issues of tax and welfare spending but they are not white supremacists. California vote was much more lopsidedly Democrat this election than in any other. So if the secession is about fighting racism they would stay.
**Life is too short to be serious**
What tech? From a manufacturing stand point none of it is made here. Then of course most of the workers are H1B Visa holders or the work is outsourced. So not much of a jobs employer. And as for paying taxes, what taxes. Cupertino has been trying to get Apple to pay more in taxes to help pay for infrastructure costs.
And without water, you aren't growing much.
Move along Potsy.
Most of CA's water comes from the Sacramento river. Watershed is 100% in CA.
About 1/3 of LA's water comes from the Colorado river, which runs through CA. Under water rights laws as they exist the water belongs to CA.
You might want to look a the geography of CA before spouting off again.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Back in the 90s and early 00s I used to go back and forth from Rhode Island to Toronto every weekend or every other weekend (and off to Bobcaygeon).
I was envious of the prosperity across the border. American Exceptionalism became less exceptional.
>more stringent ecological rules and laws
>higher taxes
>universal healthcare (OHIP).
>whole corridor from Windsor to Oshawa more prosperous than anything with comparable population south of the border.
Somehow it seems that there's been a bunch of lyin' by certain politicians over the decades.
--
BMO
O'bummer better quit dilly-dallying, only 70 days left to take our guns!
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
> Class and dignity? Coming from a Trump supporter that's rich.
Oh grow up. You're really stuck in that raging fanboism where you think anybody who doesn't throw a tantrum because Hillary lost must be a Trump drone? No, I didn't vote for the reality TV star. When you grow up you'll realize she's just as full of shit as he is. She's been lying as a full-time job since 1977.
Move to BC. It's not quite California but the weather in southern BC is pretty decent. Osoyoos or Oliver might be a bit small but Penticton is right on a lake and could probably build up infrastructure fairly quickly.
um, maybe you should read the article you linked to? He adopted Conservative ideals (fiscal responsibility, for one) to fix some of the problems.
The problem such as it is, is that those who call themselves conservatives these days do not practice fiscal responsibility. You are talking to a Goldwater conservative, who understands the difference between old school conservative principles and the state of the party now.
How ironic, when Jerry Brown is a better conservative than the people who call him a liberal.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
According to Pew Research: 1 in 3 Hispanic/Latino voters voted for Trump. 2 out of 5 women voted for Trump and Clinton got barely more than half. Asian Americans voted overwhelmingly for Trump. In fact in California only 3 out of 5 voted for Clinton overall, and considering the voter depression in the state it could be closer to half than we will ever know.
Your position is disenfranchising anyone who disagrees with you. So much for you being an intellectual who really cares about the minorities in the Country.
-The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.
This seems like the stupidest thing to me. Whatever you think of him as a person, he was elected by a legitimate democratic process. So either you don't like said process (aka it only works when it's a candidate that you like), or you're just a sore loser. Probably both. It does suck that the district-based electoral college doesn't line up with the actual total votes, but that wasn't so much an issue when they voted in the other guy, it seems.
Trump isn't even in office yet. He's said a lot of stupid things, but he hasn't *DONE* any stupid things yet, and frankly he's pretty inconsistent on the doing part of things. You want to protest, then I suggest you find something that's actually being done before you whip out the tar and feathers.
If you really want something to be afraid of, don't fear Trump. Fear a GoP majority, an empty spot on the Supreme court, and two additional spots on the Supreme that are filled by some fairly old judges. That could mean up to three LIFETIME appointees to the Supreme court - you know the place that really is the final decided on a lot of the cases that have affected the citizens of your country - which might get filled with some potentially heavily biased GoP appointees.
If you care about the country so much and you believe it fell into the wrong hands, then why not fight to take back the Congress in 2018 and the White House in 2020? That makes more sense than selfishly plotting secession which is guaranteed to break the back of the progressive movement you claim to love by withdrawing one of its core financial and political bedrocks from the system.
Get in line behind Texas, hippies.
For *you*. Everyone else gets to do what, exactly?
They can do their own things. There are lots of things to do.
At no point does one of those things become debased by making a profit, which is the assertion that you Mr A.C. made above.
I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
Pretty much the same could be said about the immigrants (legal or illegal) and the Chinese and Mexicans that those people in the rural areas like to complain about...
I have no problem with legal immigrants. I also have no problem with increasing the quota for people coming into the USA. Heck, if we want to, meet them at the border and issue them an ID and social security card on the spot but in order to do that you need to actual vote on changing the laws. Right now the law says you have to have a work visa to work in the USA. I want the laws we have enforced until they vote on them to change. I also have a problem with the people here illegally getting to jump the line in front of the millions of people waiting their turn to legally come into the USA. If we want open borders, fine, let's discuss and vote on it but let's not have a system where it's "illegal" to come here but if you risk your life to sneak across the border and work for below minimum wage as a slave then we'll look the other way. This does no favors to anyone whether you're black, white, a legal hispanic, or an illegal hispanic. I don't want to live in a country where there is a group of untouchables that have no chance of ever getting out of poverty because they aren't considered real citizens. Close off the border, increase the quotas, and make sure everyone in the USA has the same rights as everyone else.
Now that the bullshit has served its intended purpose.
Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?
Said like a true better-than-though left wing social justice warrior... or a right-wing-religious nut. Whichever offends you more!
Wait, you said "over there" like you're not from round dees parts. Whar ya from stranger? Ya sound like a gol durned foreigner an we don't take kindly to gol durned foreigners telling us how to live our lives!
(On a more serious note, I'm amazed at how much people got twisted over this election. If there was ever a time to freely admit that you could understand why someone would oppose your own candidate, this was it!)
nor would the US government even begin to allow one of the states to succeed from the union. That was established a long time ago by the confederate states, Texas, and Utah.
The difference is that the rest of the country didn't want them to leave. Texas wouldn't be able to leave because both the democrats and the republicans would try to stop them. If California wanted to leave, the red states would likely jump on board and getting a 2/3 majority in the house would be easy. The red states want California to leave just as much if not more than California wants to leave. The senate would really be the only roadblock because California only gets 2 votes there and there are a lot of small blue states in the east that likely wouldn't want California to leave.
Agree... I was going to vote Johnson until this past weekend when my wife and kids discussed it. Who's worse? Hillary or Donald? As human beings, they're both "deplorable." So it came down to policy decisions. Thinking about terms limits, for example, and lobbying from foreign interests (or banning ex politicians from representing foreign lobbyists)... and then we discussed healthcare. This year was terrible for us - my daughter needed PT to the tune of nearly $3000, all out of pocket thanks to deductibles that are triple what I was paying before, and nearly double the cost premiums I'm paying now. Suddenly the picture started becoming more clear - I don't like Trump. He is misogynist. I don't think he's racist, but I do think he's prejudiced and bigoted (and yes, they are different things - related perhaps, and usually going together, but not necessarily). Targeting ILLEGAL immigration does not make him a xenophobe. So yes, I sadly accept the baggage of his terrible personality BECAUSE it came down to issues.
Stupid sexy Flanders.