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Silicon Valley Investors Call For California To Secede From the US After Trump Win (theguardian.com)
An anonymous reader quotes a report from The Guardian: As Donald Trump's shock election victory reverberated around Silicon Valley late on Tuesday night, some high-profile technologists were already calling for California to secede from the United States. The broader west coast is a stronghold for the Democrats, and significantly more politically progressive and racially diverse than large swathes of central U.S. California is also the biggest economy in the U.S. and the sixth largest in the world with a gross state product of $2.496 trillion for 2015, according to the IMF. The campaign for independence -- variously dubbed Calexit, Califrexit and Caleavefornia -- has been regarded as a fringe movement. But support was revitalized by influential Uber investor and Hyperloop co-founder Shervin Pishevar, in a series of tweets announcing his plans to fund a "legitimate campaign for California to become its own nation" -- posted even before the full results were in. A few hours later, Hillary Clinton conceded the election to Trump, and Pishevar told CNBC that he was serious about Calexit. "It's the most patriotic thing I can do," he said, adding that the resulting nation would be called New California. "We can re-enter the union after California becomes a nation. As the sixth largest economy in the world, the economic engine of the nation and provider of a large percentage of the federal budget, California carries a lot of weight," he said. Pishevar was supported by others in Silicon Valley. Angel investor Jason Calacanis said that California succession would be simple in the wake of both Brexit and a Trump win. Evan Low, a Democrat serving in the California state assembly, said that he'd support the introduction of a bill to start the independence process. The proposal illustrates the technology industry's frustration with Trump over his repeated criticisms of Silicon Valley companies. Trump has said in the past that he would make Apple build computers in the U.S. He also thinks Amazon CEO "Jeff Bezos bought the Washington Post to exert political power and avoid paying taxes, and claimed that Mark Zuckerberg's push for specialist immigration would actually decrease opportunities for American women and minorities." In July, 145 technology leaders wrote in an open letter about how "Trump would be a disaster for innovation."
This is a little dramatic.
I'll be these same people pointed and laughed when Texans said the same thing.
-- Will program for bandwidth
That's rich.
DaveyJJ
And drive trucks with gun racks. They chew and spit tobacco.
Left wing secessionists wear VR headsets and have dongles falling out of their pockets.
Otherwise, pretty similar.
It has to suck after you make all these of those "donations" and get nothing back in return.
They are doing everything, EVERY. GOD. DAMNED. thing they said would be unacceptable for Trump supporters to do if Hillary won.
They have NO self awareness, NONE.
A United States Congress without the wacko democratic representatives (Pelosi) and senators (Feinstein) from California in it can only be a massive improvement for the rest of us.
Let California secede and try to pay for all of it's socialist programs and "porous borders" through it's failing tax base and deficit-ridden state budgets. How long will that last?
If California becomes a country, presumably one with an open southern border and an H-1B peonage system of its own, it would have to implement some form of defense department. Would it have electric dirigible aircraft, wind-powered missiles and a Department Of Hugging It Out?
You pushed for Clinton, even though Sanders was a better candidate. What did you expect?
Be seeing you...
He don't exactly do that to gain moral ground.
If anything, on one of the debates if i'm not mistaken, his point was "i know companies do it because i do it".
Trump would throw a wrench into their cheap labor and displacing jobs. Threatens their business models.
Some of the strictest sheriffs in the wild west were former outlaws. Who better to hunt tax cheats than an expert.
I was under the impression that the secession from the Union thing was settled back in the 1860's. If I recall a few million Americans died in the process.
I don't like the idea of a Trump presidency, but have to admit I liked the idea of an HRC presidency even less.
Trump never ran on issues, just biases and fears. Be an interesting 4 years, see what he really does. Especially with his wall.
How about Wow, a double win! I'm all for it, as long as they take their share of the national debt with them.
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
The world will go on without you. Maybe Apple could move their operations to their new 'foreign' neighbors.
I believe the count was closer to 600,000. Other than that, your observation is correct. /off to the googles to check the civil war death rate.
-- Will program for bandwidth
Don't let it hit you in the rear end on your way out of the union! (Talk is cheap, let's see them actually do more than talk.)
SV already seceded by hiding $2 Trillion dollars outside of the USA despite living off of incredible amounts of tax assistance and infrastructure.
CA wouldn't know how to survive without tax welfare.
As much as I despise Donald Trump, seeing these haughty Progressives eat a buffet of crows warms the cockles of my heart.
For the last 90 years, the Ivy League-armed technocrats of the Progressive apparatus have waged a relentless war against state sovereignty in their march to greater political and economic consolidation in D.C. and NYC. Only the "leadership" from the PhDs in D.C. matter, plebs. We'll control your healthcare, collude with the media to control the agenda, concentrate more power in the unelected bureaucracy that grows like a weed in Northern Virginia, and then call anyone who supports states' rights (aka federalism aka competitive sovereignty) a racist or neo-Confederate.
Fuck you. You made this bed. Now lie in it. Enjoy Trump turning the gun of the federal leviathan you created right in your face. Applauding for Obama's "I'm going it alone" screed when the Democrats lost Congress doesn't seem like a wise precedent now does it? But let's be honest: you only like democracy when it goes your way, otherwise you pout.
By the way, these same Silicon Valley assholes and California Democrats have made fun of Northern California's "State of Jefferson" secession movement for decades.
Seeing the Obama elitists go down in flames in Congress and the executive puts a big ol' smile on my face. The next blow against these Silicon Valley fucks will be the bursting of the zero percent interest rate bubble blown by the Fed (another wonderful gift from the Progressives), which will wipe out the GAAP non-profitable bullshit "app" companies in the Valley. (This is probably why they hate Trump, though: he's mentioned that we're in a bubble and it's the Fed's fault.)
Truthfully, though, the Democratic party and the country would be better off if they did leave. As long as the Dems in the Bay Area foist Pelosi, Boxer, and Harris on the rest of the republic, the party will be repugnant to most of the Rust Belt and places like New Hampshire, where citizens still value freedom and being left the fuck alone.
How about Wow, a double win! I'm all for it, as long as they take their share of the national debt with them.
Maybe we could sell California to the Chinese in exchange for forgiving their share of the national debt...
Taking guns away from the 99% gives the 1% 100% of the power.
I wonder how much of the Colorado river water southern California would get if Arizona and Nevada had all the Congressional votes that applied? Secede, sure, and be sure to prepare for the ensuing Water Wars.
Maybe we could sell California to the Chinese in exchange for forgiving their share of the national debt...
Why sell California so cheap? The largest holder of US debt is the Social Security Trust Fund.
... some high-profile technologists were already calling for California to secede from the United States.
It's nice to see they've remained well-rooted in reality.
#DeleteChrome
The irony here being that Trump is the one who would let them feasibly repatriate it (by reducing US corporate income tax)
The US Civil War was fought to decide this issue. States cannot secede from the US. Investors aren't stupid, so what are they trying to show? That they think we must be? That they'll throw money at anything drawing attention to their displeasure with the president-elect?
That making a hyperbolic proposition as an opening is just part of the art of the deal?
Take off, every Hoser
Just put a indentation stamp into every product you sell, stating "replace the electoral college with actual democratic representation".
Provide details on why the Electoral college exists, and why it's a horrible idea. Tell how the founders wanted to prevent democracy, and how that has hurt us, and how we're now stunted by our lack of actual democratic representation through equal vote impact for citizens in each state..
It's more likely to succeed, and if it does, population centers like California would essentially govern the nation from a more progressive stance going forward.
Secession isn't really a hallmark of modern liberals anyway - they want to make government WORK, and won't really fight to break a government the way modern conservatives will. Instead, they'll tend to only really agree to a fight to defeat profound inequities, like ethnic cleansing or terror - but having their vote not count as much as a rural state might just be enough if it's presented strongly enough.
There's plenty of counter-arguments against this line of reasoning - but for what you're asking for, seems that's your best choice.
Ryan Fenton
" despite living off of incredible amounts of tax assistance and infrastructure."
= You have no idea of the math involved. SV has contributed many hundreds of times more than it has received in government assistance, unless you have your official GOP calculator handy with some actual facts. Compared to the GOP's pet coal/oil industry or almost anything else, SV has been wildly profitable per invested dollar. You're ridiculously uninformed, but that appears to be in fashion now, good for you!
Rather than threatening to pick up our ball and go home when we lose, let's acknowledge that the country is divided on what we should be doing. It's hard to compare the different ideas because we have no control group to compare to when one party's ideas were in use. Comparing different times periods is difficult because the US is part of a global economy and has technological and societal changes.
So I propose we let the Democrats and Republicans come up with their own plans for taxes, entitlements, health care, and any other parts of the budget where practical. Add in a third non-partisan group of experts for an alternative plan.
Then we have a referendum with instant runoff voting. Each state gets to chose which plan it wants to implement. In order for a plan to go into effect it must have some threshold of states/population.
The debt is then split proportionately by population to the groups of states and we let the experiment run its course. Changes to the plans must be approved by the voters in the states currently on the plan. States can change plans on the same schedule as the Senate. 6 years, staggered so that 1/3 happens every 2 years. Continue until only one plan remains.
I'm sure you'll do fine without those billions of federal tax dollars
Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
Wow.
The protest in NYC is pretty big.
Regarding California, after it seceeds, where will they get water?
buried ~1M war dead...
Shervin Pishevar, born in Iran. You know going forward with this idea he is only helping to strengthen trump's supporters idea that we are being invaded by Asians, Latinos and middle-easterners that care nothing about our history or country??
And reports of teargas being used on protesters in Oakland!
It's going to be a long night.
(After weeks of being told to accept the election outcome, anything else is an attack on democracy. Sheesh!)
Of course the whole US back then had a population less than California today.
The working-age male population in the South was worse than decimated.
It turns out that it is easier to secede from the Soviet Union than the United States. The Hotel California can never leave.
Is this what people do now? One thing fails to go their way and they have a hissy fit and hold their breath until they turn blue like a 3-year-old? I don't expect much from leftists, but honestly, this is what they do.
I have sat through 11 presidential elections, including the elections of notable piles of shit Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton, and most worthless of all, Barack Obama, and yes, it was disgusting and sickening to me, too, but no one I knew had a meltdown over it.
A nation of fucking precious snowflake babies.
Anything posted in the immediate aftermath of the election is part of coping, so I take this sort of thing with a great heaping helping of salt. The right wing did it when Obama was elected, after all, and outside some squawking about birth certificates nothing came of it.
Whether or not it sputters out in this case depends on what happens in the first three to six months after Trump takes office. If he ends up more moderate than he was on the campaign trail, then things will almost certainly continue on as usual (so to speak). We'll probably see some regressive tax policy changes and erosion of various minority and women's rights, but nothing too catastrophic. The poor will get poorer, the rich will get richer, and the environment will continue to get worse at the same rate it is today.
Alone, those things aren't enough to spur serious action.
If, however, he manages to convince the Senate and Congress to go along with some of his wackier campaign promises, then there's a very real chance things could get serious quickly.
- If he trashes too many social support nets, then all bets are off. If you and your family are starving, you'll do pretty much anything to get food, and if it happens in bulk you have the spark of revolution on your hands. Throw a heavy-handed response to rioting and you have martyrs and a circle of escalating violence.
- If he makes enough blatantly discriminatory changes and gets them through a stacked Supreme Court, he could provoke enough ire to prompt serious nonviolent secession talk. If, for example, he bans all Muslims or Mexicans from entering the country, and his ban survives a supreme court challenge, California will look long and hard at the idea of leaving because there's a large enough majority of people that don't agree with that kind of action here to support that.
If all he does is chip away at the progress made in the last ten or twenty years, he'll be fine. If he starts taking a pickaxe to things that have been part of America for the last sixty or seventy, all bets are off.
Never underestimate the stupidity inherent in all human beings.
Correction: It is far NorCal and South Oregon's secession petition. There is a whole article on wikipedia on it and the Cascadia movement in general (NorCal to Southern British Columbia as a single cultural, political, economic bloc.)
Most of the problems worldwide are due to consolidation. The problem is people are talking about dividing under un-amicable circumstances which would cause problems for future defense pacts necessary to ensure the newfound economic blocs would not get steamrolled by outside parties (notably Russia/China at this time, but also Brazil, the EU, etc in the future.)
What really needs to happen is a constitutional congress in the us, a redrafting of the US constitution for the current world, as an a side effect of that, a renewal of incorporation for states that wish to, allowing states that thing they can go it alone the opportunity to gracefulyl bow out without the hassles of the current method of secession. Who knows, maybe with the stars freed on the flag the rest of the US could incorporate Puerto Rico and Guam as official U.S. states.
*RANT ON*
Its getting tiring, this shrill end of the world, he/she said something bad so I have to cry now nonsense. I could say something coherent about words not hurting but i'm ranting so another time.
And then, when I read an article like this all I can think about is 'them'(and if I wasn't ranting I would say all people who dont get their way, not just 1 side or another), saying 'BOO HOO, we didn't get our way so now we are going to kick down the sand castle and take all our toys'.
Sound like a bunch of smug self righteous children, grow up.
200+ years of history and not everyone got their way every time, sometimes you have to play the long game and put in the real work.
*RANT OFF*
That felt good, thanks for listening.
5 People Shot At Anti-Trump ProtestAll Are In Critical Condition (video)
California is a NET CONTRIBUTOR to the federal government.
For the typical /. reader, this means Californians pay more in federal taxes than they get back from the federal government.
Somebody has to pay for the food stamps all those met addicted red state degenerates receive.
You wish to secede. To do so, you will have to give any water coming from out of state, and let northern California control the rest, and gasoline will cost $25/gallon from now on, plus whatever export tariff the United States chooses to add on.
Enjoy your avocados and almonds, because all staple foods are grown somewhere else.
There is exactly as much chance of this happening as there is of Hillary Clinton winning Miss Congeniality as a consolation prize.
Can't deny that "calixit" has a nice ring to it!
`echo $[0x853204FA81]|tr 0-9 ionbsdeaml`@gmail.com
Your ignorance is showing. California sends far more tax money to the rest of the nation than it receives. So it seems more likely the red states wouldn't be able to survive without the 'welfare' they receive from California.
It's not a particularly new proposal. We've toyed with the idea in California in various incarnations for years.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
Have you seen the California budget lately? No, CA does not give more than it receives. The state is in massive debt, has massive regulations, and businesses can't seem to leave the state fast enough.
Oddly enough, Liberal Jerry Brown changed things a bit http://www.economist.com/news/...
So anyhow, now that your ideology is in complete control, it's going to sound pretty funny when you still try to blame them damn libtards for every problem. Let em go or kick them out.
I fully supported Texas seceding, as I do California.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
Forgottonia was a rural area in western Illinois that "seceded" and declared war on the US only to immediately surrender out of protest for being left out of many infrastructure projects.
Just give California back to the Mexicans.
"The average reporter we talk to is 27 years old......They literally know nothing." - Ben Rhodes
A United States Congress without the wacko democratic representatives (Pelosi) and senators (Feinstein) from California in it can only be a massive improvement for the rest of us.
Let California secede and try to pay for all of it's socialist programs and "porous borders" through it's failing tax base and deficit-ridden state budgets. How long will that last?
Pay??? You do realize that California, along with almost every other democratic stronghold, contributes huge amounts of tax money to poorer states? Californians would have significantly more money on their budget, enough that they'd be able to implement their policies and probably cut taxes at the same time. I agree though, if the west and northeast coasts succeed, we'd all get an opportunity to finally see how the two parties float their sides, and I personally wouldn't mind to see my taxes support my own state, not some farmer in Nebraska.
"Set a man a fire, he'll be warm for the rest of the night. Set a man afire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life."
This image from Anonymous was pretty funny, with the caption:
"Guess whats going to happen tomorrow #TrumpProtest DONALD J TRUMP will still be President Elect!
I can't believe what gigantic babies they are. What, did they expect that for the rest of their natural lives, that they would win every single election, ever? Apparently so.
And now, that their side lost, instead of moving forward, they are bawling like infants and want to quit. We saw this with Brexit as well. Highly educated people, professionals, and they just pitched a shit-fit because they lost. I couldn't believe the rage that Ph.D's were capable of. But they sure can lecture everyone else about how we have to accept it when things go their way.
Democracy is awesome.
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
If Texas didn't secede after Obama got elected, I am sure a bunch of spoiled silicon valley plutocrats won't either. They should buy more electric cars or whatever is far-left equivalent to guns&ammo.
If you supported Trump kindly go fuck yourself, and I'll take the moderation results of this post. If not then I apologize to you, but not the man who decided to run a campaign based on sowing as much hatred as absolutely possible.
This is what happens when you run that kind of campaign.
We didn't protest when Barack Obama was elected. Twice.
Here's some observations about the protests:
You're being manipulated.
they just want cheap foreign labor in the form of easy Visas. They're afraid Trump is gonna take that away. They're stirring up trouble to try and get him on their side. It won't work. He's bloody nuts.
Progressives didn't create that leviathan. It's always been there. If you allow a weak central government you just get robber barons on a national level filling the power vacuum you just left in your mad dash to freedom.
Also, what they hell is wrong with 'elites'? What's wrong with people who take their work seriously, study and learn the optimal approaches while constantly striving to improve? That's an elite. If you don't like being talked down to then crack a book, study up and learn enough about politics, economics and policy so that you're _not_ being talked down to. The rest of us sane people like experts in a field.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
How about this: you don't want to live in the United States of America anymore? Then, get the fuck out, bitches.
sig: sauer
"First post" motherfucker!
You'd better do some research. California is one of ONLY 3 states to give more to the US federal government than it receives. Without California's MASSIVE tech and Agricultural industries the US GDP will take a double digit drop, creating an economic hit similar to the great depression and the banking crash. If California were a nation it would rank 6th in the world GDP.
https://www.google.com/#q=stat...
https://wallethub.com/edu/stat...
http://www.motherjones.com/pol...
All that said I can't argue the wacko part, nor would the US government even begin to allow one of the states to succeed from the union. That was established a long time ago by the confederate states, Texas, and Utah.
errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
I believe the count was closer to 600,000.
Yes, about 600k soldiers died, but the majority of those were from disease rather than battlefield deaths, which was normal before antibiotics.
The secession question was settled in April of 1865, on the battlefield at Appomattox, when the Army of Northern Virginia failed to break out of the siege of Petersburg. Joe Johnson surrendered the Army of Tennessee a week later. And that was the end of that.
You realize that California sends a metric shit ton of money to the federal government? More than they receive.
Reality is a slackware box running on a 386 tucked away in god's sock drawer.
California pays more to the Federal government than it gets back (it's a "maker" state not a "taker" state), and the state has a surplus.
But also against idiots like this doing it as a wah wah against Trump becoming president.
America as a defense pact makes sense. America as a single governing entity hasn't made sense since it was still the 13 colonies, and makes even less sense today between the vehement ideological differences across different parts of the US, the corruption and graft at all levels of federal government. All the pork barrel spending and incompetent programs that have resulted, in large part due to backroom deals to 'make it happen' while driving local industry with component manufacture that should really be consolidated into the same geographical region, etc.
California or the Cascadia region splitting off into its own state(s)/country could be exactly what this country needs. Cutting off both federal aid to the western blue states, as well as cutting off those states' tax base from the US economy might be a wake up call for both sides over what advantages the other offers, while also helping to shake up a number of issues due to complacency and corruption. Lack of federal spending in California means the interstate highways and other roads will need to locally maintained, something California is entirely capable of, but which has been neglected due to a preference for federal funds (at the expense of other things like drinking/smoking age, which may stay where they are, but were in part raised in order to keep getting federal funding.)
An added bonus: separation of California from the US could be used to segregate the western and eastern seaboard entertainment industries, whose decline has been in part due to media companies gobbling up industry members on both coasts. If secession takes place and restrictions are put in place, we may see a new influx of creativity in the industry which hasn't been seen since the move west to avoid the patents in the early part of the last century.
Downsides to it is less trust in the US Dollar, political uncertainty worldwide, and the possibility of Russia/China taking it as an opportunity to project military force while the weakened US is distracted.
Personally I think it is still worth the risk, especially if California undoes some of the shortcomings the Clinton/Bush era feds did with decommissioning bases in California (notably the entire Sacramento region, which had dozens of army, reserve, and air force bases sold off to private parties. Including all but one in the capital!
Errm... you realize Federal aid is going with California, yes? If the east and west segregate, DC isn't going to side with the midwest and south, I think that's pretty obvious. If almost all of the states that are the financial backbone of the federal government leave, and the federal government itself has no connection with those parts of the country, why on earth would it stay behind?
"Set a man a fire, he'll be warm for the rest of the night. Set a man afire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life."
It's pretty close to even, IIRC - I think in 2014 it was something like California getting back about 95% of what it sent in taxes.
Never underestimate the stupidity inherent in all human beings.
don't forget the amount of money we save from not having to provide disaster assistance when the fault finally explodes.
Florida wanted to do the same thing after the last election. Yeah, go ahead, and send Cali into an even deeper financial crisis. Property values will crash and your currency won't be worth shit. On the east coast, look at property values of the south compared to that of the north and you'll see the south is STILL paying for trying to secede from the union. Clearly Cali has been smoking weed longer than it's been legalized.
And quit your bitching. You all rallied behind Hillary waving signs that said "stronger together." Put your fucking money where your mouth is and heed the advice coming from that liberal-Jesus Obama when he says support the Donald. It is done. Likewise, Donald stood on stage and said he wants to be president for everyone - call him on it.
Chewbacon
The Bible is like Wikipedia: written by a bunch of people and verifiable by questionable sources.
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/05/which-states-are-givers-and-which-are-takers/361668/
You seem to be wrong. You might say massively wrong.
Reality is a slackware box running on a 386 tucked away in god's sock drawer.
California is the 8th largest economy in the world. Jesus Christ the political right is populated by some real halfwits.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
Since California gives more to the Federal government in taxes than they get back in benefits, you could say that their "share of the national debt" is negative. We would owe them a rebate, in fact.
You are welcome on my lawn.
That's rich.
Why, because he and everybody else use the carried loss provisions of the tax code? If you made enough running your own several hundred businesses to actually have a small army of accountants preparing YOUR taxes following the collapse of revenues in one of those areas (a bad year for everyone in Atlantic City, etc)., you'd be getting professional advice to do exactly the same thing when circumstances warrant.
Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
Yes, I get it. You don't like Trump. I don't like Trump either.
There was a lot of bluster and bitching but Texas didn't really try to secede from the Union when Obama was elected or re-elected and they dislike Obama as much as you dislike Trump.
Stop throwing a fucking tantrum and grow up.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
Paywalled, and written with an intentional bias. Considering we have the highest taxes in the US, a 51Billion dollar budget deficit, at least 400billion in unfunded liabilities, and a 400billion dollar debt, all of the various debt and liabilities from UC. Then you need to you take away the Federal tax funds to the various cities, education, military bases and ports, various science funding and NASA, etc... that Budget goes down by 1/3rd.
More simply put, tax dollars going to the Federal side from CA return to Government projects in CA. The article is only counting certain types of assistance spending on people.
You are not paying me to be an analyst so the numbers are rough, but certainly California has great financial issues.
-The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.
Reports of mass arrests at the Trump hotel in NYC.
Also... looking at the images people are tweeting during the riots is pretty interesting.
I didn't know there was such a thing as a Trump sex doll.
TIL
Sure, it's like hallucinations of self aggrandizement fueled by moronic tech upstart CEOs who apparently knows shit about politics and governing will magically solve all the problems that divided the US in this election and will make for a better world tomorrow for all american citizens and the rest of the world.
Look, I understand people are frustrated with Trump being elected. Worse, there are democrats and republicans frustrated by it... we don't even have a clear party line of supporters and non-supporters anymore.
But dividing the country further is just exactly the worst possible choice, and it can only come from megalomanic sociopath CEOs like this guy, who clearly thinks his state is superior (more like he is superior to everyone else of course) just because it aligned with his own ideology or political sense in a democratic election with two candidates that clearly had their own problems.
Sorry if it hurts your sensibilities, but if Trump being elected is to be seen as a bad thing, it's as much fault of it's supporters as it is the fault of Hillary supporters or Trump haters. You haven't done enough, Hillary couldn't fight off doubts and accusations, and this is just the end result.
If you are going to cry and go running back to your house everytime a defeat like this happens, there is no future for a seceded California. No one would take a state like that seriously. And it's not only about the rest of the US that will look upon you like spoiled kids, it's also about the rest of the world.
The best people who absolutely hate Trump can do right now is monitor his actions and the government from now on, and make sure it stays in line.
You wanna see a scenario even worse than it already is, you just secede your state and wait for the next major crisis... specially with stuff like Hyperloop and Uber that are relatively new and dependant on international relationships. I'd like to see Hyperloop failing and not going anywhere just to see what this moron would do.
Things will go down hard and fast, and coming back begging to be a part of the rest of the US won't look good afterwards.
It just seems that every country apparently has to have their own share of idiots like this guy. Here in Brazil it's people from Southern states blaming all the problems of the country on northern states, as if most of the corruption schemes that are currently plaguing the country didn't originate in southern states. Man the f*ck up, admit that your country voted for the wrong guy if that's what you believe, and work for it not to affect the country too much, and do better on the next election.
If you can't live in a country where people have different opinions than yours, and you can't be bothered to fight the government back when it decides to pass something you don't think is fair, go live in a cave by yourself in some isolated island. You'll do both yourself and society a favor.
Yes, California still sends more tax money to the Federal government than it gets back in benefits.
By government-dependency rankings, it is near the bottom. 2016 numbers:
https://wallethub.com/edu/stat...
You are welcome on my lawn.
I know! We can separate the country on the basis of Republican and Democratic states.
The ensuing struggle could be called Red vs. Blue.
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
No, Sv has debased an American work force in the name of profit while claiming to be providing a service.
Calexit? Over your dead body. Its time we break the sillycons and take their assets until their tax bill is paid in full.
I rather like my job designing chips, doing cryptography, setting international standards, traveling to nice places, occasionally lecturing at colleges.
Silicon Valley didn't debase that job. Silicon Valley enabled that job.
I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
I can't confirm or dis-confirm your data as a casual google search has turned up nothing (really surprised it's not easy to find this data) but I do think you're being a bit conservative. With that said, even a 5% budget surplus in the 6th largest world economy in the world would be a shit ton of money.
I ignore Anonymous Coward posts. If you want to discuss something, that's awesome. Log in.
The federal government doesn't own those refineries, so why should they have to go? You haven't thought this through.
And since the US government would still need those Pacific-facing bases, they can rent them from the California government, just like they do in Germany, Italy, Japan, South Korea and all the places those other foreign bases are located. The US needs California a lot more than California needs the US government. Instead of having to pay for those military bases through federal taxes, they could become pure profit centers for California.
You are welcome on my lawn.
Um, California doesnt really get water from outside the state to any great degree. It's the California part of the Rockies that provides the snow pack that feeds the water needs of Southern California and the Valley. The rest of the state makes due with its own reservoirs.
Thanks - point taken.
The situation is a bit different this time: 1) No slaves 2) California has most of the weapons.
When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
I'd like to see Nebraska cut the food off to California, and those other Western states cut off the water.
Or the tech companies could move to Canada. The Ottawa valley as well as the Kitchener-Waterloo has a lot of tech startups as well as established companies who are well established. Both of the areas have well respected Canadian universities resident there so the is a good talent pool. And there is the Toronto/Mississauga area which offers the same. Canada has a lot to offer, no Trump-like entities in our political spectrum (thank God) so its something to think about. We would love to have you here, to be part of our sophisticated and affluent society. Just saying :)
We the North :)
Clive DaSilva Email: clive.dasilva@gmail.com Ubuntu 18.10 Kernel 4.18
Desunited States!
Slashdot, fix the reply notifications... You won't get away with it...
How about Wow, a double win! I'm all for it, as long as they take their share of the national debt with them.
At 17.8 Trillion dollars and 37 million Californians, that would only be about $54,000 per person. After they pay for that, then increase their State taxes by 32.4% to make up for what the fed adds to their general revenue, let alone others like military or border security and let them leave.
I wonder how long a country would last where guns are banned, everything causes cancer, and safe spaces become a way of life when Uncle Sam won't back them up.
The national of $17T divided by 300M Americans means that the national debt is *already* $54,000 per person, Californians (and residents of all states) *already* owe that money, so seceding from the USA wouldn't add to that burden.
Since California wouldn't need to extend its military presence overseas, military costs would be a fraction of what the USA spends now.
make up for what the fed adds to their general revenue
Why do you think the federal government pays more to California in benefits than California pays in taxes? Hint: they don't -- it's mostly the red states that receive more federal money than they pay in taxes.
when Uncle Sam won't back them up.
Uncle Sam has no choice - if an aggressor tried to occupy California, the USA would have to protect them, or that aggressor would be right at their doorstep.
You are quite wrong - look at the real numbers Californian's pay more in taxes proportionally than they receive back in benefits from the federal govt.
It's the bible belt states, Trump's big supporters, who really suck at the teat of federal government, paid for by those very people in California you deride
REF: http://www.theatlantic.com/bus...
You could say "FF XIV".
>CA makes a lot of money because it's a port state with refineries and military bases.
Actually there are some small industries related to tech and agriculture also. It seem odd to miss those things when talking about California.
I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
I'd like to see Nebraska cut the food off to California, and those other Western states cut off the water.
I'd like to see that, too. If we're not growing food for the whole nation, we'll need a whole lot less water. The majority of the produce eaten in the USA is produced in California. Our share of foods you eat ranges from about 50% to about 95%, if you put corn aside. Just corn mind you, not wheat or rice.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Have you seen the California budget lately? No, CA does not give more than it receives. The state is in massive debt, has massive regulations, and businesses can't seem to leave the state fast enough. Just wait, massive approvals for hundreds of billions more in debt just got approved.
I thought quite a bit about this because I heard it this morning. Let CA secede, but they need to pay out all of the money they currently owe. They also need to come up with their own currency, infrastructure system and funding, and of course defense forces. Perhaps try to pay the rest of the US to do so for them, but good luck with that. A broke California with no defense will quickly become someone else' territory.
I'm sure China would bail them out. For a price.
In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
You are confusing the state budget with the ratio of federal taxes and money received back from the feds - they are quite different things
California's budget is deeply hamstrung by Regan era meddling that makes hard to raise money for simple things like schools - it's the main reason why the state's schools used to be rated #1 in the nation and are now at the bottom
Everybody just calm down already.
No, it was settled in Texas v. White https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_v._White. States may not unilaterally secede but may as part of a multilateral process.
California does in fact give more than it receives from the federal government. Yes it has debt but it also has a prospering economy and a surplus budget. Meanwhile places like Silicon Valley and the surrounding areas are suffering from labor shortages which hardly sounds like "businesses can't seem to leave the state fast enough". Sure, there are parts of the state that are having a hard time of it (the Northern bits and the Valley) but our job growth out ranks most other states right now.
Now I don't think California should leave the Union as it would be as dumb as Brexit is but you're exercising pure naivety if you think the 6th largest economy in the world with one of the worlds highest per capita GDPs couldn't make it on its own.
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If they do secede they need to pay relocation fees for everyone who wants to leave. I demand relocation fees.
One more, one more thing.. CA makes a lot of money because it's a port state with refineries and military bases. All that stuff goes with caexit too, so the economy no longer looks so good.
Why would refineries go? California will still have ports and will still refine crude into finished products that other states will be happy to buy. (though most of the fuel refined in California stays in California, so even if other states wouldn't buy California refined fuel, it wouldn't make a huge difference)
Likewise, the USA would continue to run military bases in California -- they aren't going to give up a huge Naval port, as well as the other large bases that all branches of the military have in California. They'd either pay for the land, or more likely, strike a deal to keep the bases in return for military protection of California.
A Calexit would never happen, but the economy would keep running mostly as it has... sure some states may choose to limit their trade with the state due to ideological reasons, practicality will win -- no one is going to give up their iPhone because it's designed in California. The iPhone is already made in China, an oppressive communist country that few would call a USA ally, yet few people want to give up cheap Chinese goods just to make a point.
This is California. You're Canada. Forget about the culture shock, it's the weather shock that will kill us off!
Yeah, there were people on twitter reporting on the protests from the beginning, but it's been pushed down the list and now I can't find it.
(There's a *lot* of activity on twitter right now!)
Look at some of the images, you'll see a lot of pre-printed signs (and a lot of hand-drawn ones).
We'll have to wait for tomorrow to see if the MSM reports people ginning up the crowd, or whether there are paid instigators, or whether they were alerted ahead of time and told what to look for.
Just like they did during the Trump rallies.
If the 14 year old is daughter of a Mexican, the Mexican Constitution says she's Mexican, it doesn't matter where she was born.
So, Trump's tax adviser will be sheriff, then. Because Trump is not even remotely a tax expert, despite his claims. His own tax adviser said he literally just signed his returns after they were prepared for him without any involvement at all. (Citation: http://www.cnn.com/2016/10/05/...)
The echo chamber is strong in this one.
Look at a county map of election results. Oops, there are parts of California where Trump got 50%, 60% or 70% of the votes.
Go and Cexit, it'll be spectacular to watch.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
Just because your middle class ass is OK with the status quo doesn't mean those who are trampled upon should just suck it up.
You entitled fucking twat.
Here's what he was talking about.
And yes, I'm an entitled fucking twat for thinking that immigrants shouldn't change our culture.
If Cali, OR, and WA all seceded together they could form the country of COW. It has a nice ring to it.
The centrist North and East won't vote to go along with it, because without CA, there wouldn't be enough left-leaning votes to prevent GOP presidents, and the remaining USA would turn right-wing.
In short, we'd be sticking the poor suckers with Tea Party types. They'd thus join the battle to prevent CALEXIT, and maybe try to secede themselves if the battle fails.
Table-ized A.I.
For the time being that is...
Sounds like the Silicon Valley group was getting a head start on California Prop 64.
Agreed. If they "calexit", where will the money come from to finance the giveaway programs ? Go ahead and leave. I could use the tax break.
But they can save money on not spending so much on offense and try not to be an empire.
A picture of a guy and a megaphone is indicative of massive pre planning? /me shakes his head.
I honestly don't know what to say to some one who makes that claim. I don't think there's anything I can say that will refute your conspiracy theories in your mind.
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California's agricultural crops are not the full picture, or not as you may think. from TFA: "California is also the biggest economy in the US and the sixth largest in the world with a gross state product of $2.496tn for 2015, according to the IMF."
Your fancy "grain fed cows" and amber fields of grain aren't really squat compared to the ~$2.5 $$ Trillion $$ GSP $$ of California now, don't ya think?
I think Calif would be just fine as it's own sovereign nation without being sucked dry by the new 3 ring shit show we just got handed.
"Suppose you were an idiot...and suppose you were a member of Congress...but I repeat myself." Mark Twain
On the bright side with Trump in the White House nothing will be done to mitigate global warming. It's a long game, but I can assure you, moving to Canada help me to keep my sanity.
Actually Russian politologists have long predicted such a break-up.
What's new is that they are actively working to make it happen.
This secession talk is a wee bit childish. Here's what Hillary Clinton had to say this morning about a Trump presidency:
"Donald Trump is going to be our president. We owe him an open mind and a chance to lead."
I hope her supporters take a cue from her and start behaving with some class and dignity.
Well according to this http://www.theatlantic.com/bus... California is nearly 1:1 - so not much of a taker or a contributor. Some solid red states like Kansas and Nebraska get much less back than they put in though. Oregon, at solid blue, is second from the top for the highest pull on food stamps as percent of population. South Carolina gets the greatest return at nearly 8:1 while "meth capitols" like Missouri and Illinois are at the bottom with roughly 1:1 and 0.5:1 respectively. You can't simply equate percent of population on food stamps with the amount returned though since federal dollars enter back in to states for all sorts of reasons beyond safety net. High percentage food stamp states like Oregon rank in the middle at about 1.25:1 in terms of states that get back more than they put in. My armchair view is that there seems to be little to do with red vs blue and more to do with the "pork" influence of the representatives elected by the states.
Venezuela II
and I personally wouldn't mind to see my taxes support my own state, not some farmer in Nebraska.
Well, according to this article http://www.theatlantic.com/bus... California is already at 1:1 in terms of return on federal taxes while Nebraska is at 0.5:1, meaning they only get half back of what they put in. Additional farming states like Oklahoma, Ohio, Kansas, and Illinois are also getting less back. So your taxes ARE supporting your state and apparently no farmers elsewhere.
Citation? It depends on which metric you're going by. Avg teacher salary, avg classroom size, standardized testing (a hot button to be sure). Many state public school rankings put California in the top 3, and from what I've seen, I agree with that.
Are these not the very same people who were losing their shit over the fact that candidate Trump refused to definitively state that he would accept the results of the election?
-- "Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
Lets see.. California takes relatively little in federate aid (https://ballotpedia.org/California_state_budget_and_finances), returns more to the federal government (https://wallethub.com/edu/states-most-least-dependent-on-the-federal-government/2700), and tries to insure ALL its citizens have at least a safety net. And given that most of the "poor" states are republican (the notable exception being Texas).. Texas, CA and NY could leave the US would tank.
California's federal aid goes towards programs required by the feds, but as those programs would end (or be selectively implemented if desired), their budgetary requirements would shift. And as an independent nation, it would be free to seek other interests and partnerships with other countries to make up that shortfall. In short, its not impossible for it to depart. it would take some planning and sacrifice in the near term, but definitely possible.
God made the Idiot for practice, and then He made the School Board -- Mark Twain Look for http://Thebar.steelbeachca
Well he did say "This will be Brexit Plus Plus Plus"
It's good to hear a resurgence of interest in classical liberal concepts like secession.
Here are a few more that maybe people should think about: division of powers, limited and decentralized/local government, non-interventionism, nullification.
I wish it didn't take Trump getting elected for people to take those seriously.
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What happens to Silicon Valley/California when China starts dumping cheap Sunway CPUs onto the world market? Without the Market protection of being in the USA (which already might not be enough) How will California protect itself from agressive Chinese moves into the tech market?
"I agree though, if the west and northeast coasts succeed, we'd all get an opportunity to finally see how the two parties float their sides"
I don't know about that.
Sure, there is a majority of dems up here, but NH is a battleground state, to that matter, so is Maine. Maine feels like Georgia's lost child sometimes. Eastern MA, as in Boston metro, western MA is red, and CT / RI would probably have better luck, but even then would feel resistance. Don't know much about VT politics, but I think, being smaller than CA, would have the best luck in "floating their side".
From what I hear, and others have commented, northern CA is red, only the metro areas would see any welcomed progressive movement.
The real bottom line is when the Army drives in from the interstates, lands divisions from the other 49 states, and then hangs the leaders for treason, it will be over quickly.
"Actually Russian politologists have long predicted such a break-up."
Source?
Any case, it already happened, which means it'll happen again. Just give it time, people forget history.
You are confusing the state budget with the ratio of federal taxes and money received back from the feds - they are quite different things
California's budget is deeply hamstrung by Regan era meddling that makes hard to raise money for simple things like schools - it's the main reason why the state's schools used to be rated #1 in the nation and are now at the bottom
Crazy fact, Prop 13 (which capped the property tax growth which hamstrung tax revenues for schools) was passed back in 1973 when Jerry Brown was Governor Moonbeam for the first time...
Although Jerry Brown was originally against Prop 13, he flopped and Howard Jarvis (the author of Prop13) eventually supported Jerry Brown's re-election campaign back in the day... Now days Jerry Brown considers Prop13 the 3rd rail of California politics...
You are confusing the state budget with the ratio of federal taxes and money received back from the feds - they are quite different things
California's budget is deeply hamstrung by Regan era meddling that makes hard to raise money for simple things like schools - it's the main reason why the state's schools used to be rated #1 in the nation and are now at the bottom
Crazy fact, Prop 13 (which capped the property tax growth which hamstrung tax revenues for schools) was passed back in 1973 when Jerry Brown was Governor Moonbeam for the first time...
Although Jerry Brown was originally against Prop 13, he flopped and Howard Jarvis (the author of Prop13) eventually supported Jerry Brown's re-election campaign back in the day... Now days Jerry Brown considers Prop13 the 3rd rail of California politics...
No problem. We'll take our share of U.S. national debt and then pay it off with California-issued Fun Bucks. (Like the USA does.) Then, we'll change currency . . . .
The law is not an ass. No really.
Exactly. This proposal is not as nutty as it sounds because most of the (red) States would probably like to see California go from a politics management perspective.
The law is not an ass. No really.
The largest holder of US debt is the Social Security Trust Fund.
Eh, that's sort of true in a purely technical sense, but not really from any reasonable perspective. It'd be like if I pulled money out of my own savings account, wrote myself an I.O.U., and then spent the cash on hookers and blow. From a purely technical perspective, one would consider an I.O.U. (or US Treasury Note) to be a debt, but the debt is from myself and to myself. There's no one to go after if I "default" on it and there's nothing to prevent me from tearing up the I.O.U. or framing it on the wall and laughing at it. The US Federal government actually classifies it as "intragovernmental Holdings" and they're kept simply for accounting purposes. The idea that they'll spontaneously transform into cash one day is pure fantasy. The reality is that when cash starts flowing the other way, however much is needed will come out of the general fund and we'll either borrow or print (or both) however much is needed to cover whatever isn't sitting in the general fund's account. The Treasury Notes will be passed around, but again, this is simply for accounting purposes and it only being done at all because we've decided to do it that way in order to maintain the appearance that this is anything other than a pyramid scheme/shell game. It isn't even hard currency or any related proxy at this point; it's literally a number in a computer. It only has meaning inasmuch as we - the human race - pretend that it does.
-- "Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
How long will that last? How does it matter? At that point, its no longer your business!
The law is not an ass. No really.
The whining, crying and pointless protesting over someone you didn't like winning is more than a little pathetic.
You all knew the stakes and rules of the game going into it. How many of the whiners did anything meaningful to build consensus for different candidates? How many of them even bothered to mingle with commoners long enough to vote themselves?
I spent election night rooting for Trump to lose. Now I find myself laughing at the chorus of entitled "dumb fucks" who have the guts to publically bitch about Trump wanting to moderate their own spigots of cheap labor.
Why would you want to secede? Far more productive to call for maximum state rights with a Republican president, House and Senate. Should be difficult for them to resist that, seeing how they have been champion for 'state rights' for so long, and if you defund the federal government to the point of it becoming non-functional, California gets nearly all the benefits of independence and little of the acrimony that a secession would cause. Just ask for: - end of federal medicare, medicaid, education. - End of federal criminal law - right for states to determine who gets to live there (Republican states want to ban muslim refugees from coming in, why not ride that wave and claim a right for every state to allow or disallow any immigrant for any reason.) You could call them the 'Right to Live here' states, like you have the 'right to work' states. And of course, a corresponding drop in the federal tax rate if they don't have to fund all that stuff anymore. Accomplish that, and California is as good as independent (just like all the other states), without any of the nasty talk about actual secession and civil war and stuff.
So he called out corporations and their leaders for shady crap that they are in fact actually doing then they responded with lies about innovation and other bullshit to cover it while acting like 2 year olds throwing a tantrum. Yes, California's overtaxed, hyper-liberal welfare state and its massive debt should get the hell out of the USA. Then we'd never have a democratic president ever again. Great idea.
No one is advocating violent conflict. Rather, what is sought is a peaceable and consensual separation. RTFA: http://www.yescalifornia.org/
The law is not an ass. No really.
A broke California with no defense will quickly become someone else' territory.
If you actually believe that, you are living in a cartoon world.
I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
You might want to turn your TV on (OTOH, maybe not).
Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
"No matter what it is, it is somebody's fetish. No exceptions". He probably just likes sweaty women.
Human Rights, Article 12: Freedom from Interference with Privacy, Family, Home and Correspondence
Lol ! oh wait, you really believe that ? HAHAHAHAH ! trump is already surrounding himself with people neck-deep in wall-streets money.
Just a bunch of non-entities with all the charisma of a boiled potato.
CA-LI-FOR-NI-A! CA-LI-FOR-NI-A! CA-LI-FOR-NI-A!
Too many syllables. Also the lameness filter is lame because now I have to write some more.
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
California doesn't need to secede. It will be part of Mexico before too much longer anyway.
... But only the anti-gun pussies want to secede. Ironic. You won't win a war from within your safe space.
Maybe, but it'll be tough withstanding a human-wave charge of thousands upon thousands of these:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
[shudders]
Strat
Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
Yeah, this whole secession thing worked really well for the Confederacy, so there's no reason at all it won't work well for California.
Seriously, are these guys expecting that Hillary will be declared Dictator-for-Life if they just make enough "But we HATE The Donald" noise? Sorry, not going to happen.
And just because the EU is telling the UK "buh-bye" doesn't mean that California is going to be allowed to leave the USA....
"I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
The case Texas v. White settled this over a century ago. No state in the union has the right to secede. Talk of secession is itself in violation of Title 1 of the Smith Act: Sedition as the only way to secede is via the violent overthrow of the United States government.
Any and all content posted above may be ignored, considered irrelevant, or otherwise dismissed.
In other news California forms an alliance with Scotland
Build a Man a Fire, and He'll Be Warm for a Day. Set a Man on Fire, and He'll Be Warm for the Rest of His Life.
"California is one of ONLY 3 states to give more to the US federal government than it receives."
Not even close. https://visualeconomics.credit...
California is one of 17 states, not just 3, that gives more than it receives. California ranks 8th among those 17. It is not one of only three, it's not even in the top three.
"You'd better do some research."
So should you.
>Wall Street hates Trump. are you sure about that ? I think it is "those people think wall street hates Trump".
I'm serious - I am tired of defending Trump but I'm so tired of lies and the lying liars who tell them.
He also thinks Amazon CEO "Jeff Bezos bought the Washington Post to exert political power
There's no other reason to buy a dying newspaper.
and avoid paying taxes,
And it's probably decent for tax writeoffs as it's unlikely to be making money.
and claimed that Mark Zuckerberg's push for specialist immigration would actually decrease opportunities for American women and minorities.
He's absolutely correct. There's a reason that Facebook founders were willing to throw $20M at Hillary at the last minute to try to get her elected. By the way - remember the timing of that? When everybody thought Hillary had it wrapped up? Given the rampant collusion between Clinton, big media, and big business it seems pretty clear that she and her team knew she had a loss on her hands a couple of months ago and hoped an extra 8 digit slush fund would help.
I'm sure Lessig was just *furious* when he found out about it <eyeroll>.
Do you have ESP?
Fucking hell guys, no wonder racism and sexism is so rife over there. A lot of you guys seem to be most interested in figuring what group a person is and then using that alone to determine friend or foe. It's akin to two little kids in the park both shouting "no, you're the poopypants" That's how the rest of the world sees it. Fucking cut it out and grow up. For the good of all of us.
Wanna buy a shirt?
https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
I'd like to see Nebraska cut the food off to California, and those other Western states cut off the water.
Are they giving that food or selling it?
Wanna buy a shirt?
https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
How about Wow, a double win! I'm all for it, as long as they take their share of the national debt with them.
Sure, let them take the whole thing. The national debt, any national debt is a massive joke that will never, ever, ever be paid, nor even really attempted to. It's just there to keep the system going.
Wanna buy a shirt?
https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
I'd rather have California as an option to emigrate to than cold-as-fuck Canada.
"That's the way to do it" - Punch
What so many fail to realize is that the Blue states are net exporters of Federal Tax dollars. We pay far more than $1 for every $1 of federal spending that comes back to our states. The Red states, on the other hand, suck off the teats of the blue states. You'll see no improvement, only even fewer tax dollars to support you than you already get.
Unfortunately, Canada is a bit too gold for many of us. But who knows, with a coal industry about to get revitalized, maybe Canada will take on more tropical temperatures in the coming years...
California sends far more money back up to the Federal Government than it gets back. It's the red states that are typically the subsidized ones, receiving back from the Federal Government far more than they pay into it.
Damn pesky facts...
They could instead push satellite offices to battleground/red states and send liberal-minded folks to live there, take up residency, spread the gospel, all that stuff. Influence the vote that way. That would help with the housing problem in the bay area as well.
Seems just as likely.
Except OP is speaking factually, and you're just making stuff up based on what you want to believe, which is 100% wrong. A little research might help you not be an idiot, not that it matters since you're just an anonymous coward...
You realize that you make a ton of money selling food to other states? Can you imagine what would happen to incomes in Nebraska if they only produced enough food for themselves?
...Then you should be familiar with something called "Moral Turpitude."
If it's been a while, then let me catch you up. Every US immigrant, before entering the country, has to file a DS 230 with the State Department. On the form is a checkbox asking you if you've ever committed an act of Moral Turpitude. The expression "Moral Turpitude" is a fancy legal way of encompassing anything and everything that is morally wrong, all the way from 1st degree murder to eating meat on Good Friday. It is the government's easiest way of barring you from entry into the country, because, let's face it, we've all done something wrong in our lives. (And therefore, it's also the easiest way to kick an immigrant out of the country; all the government needs to do is find evidence of something you've done wrong in your life, then add to it lying on a government document, and then put you on a one-way plane trip back to where you came from.)
Anyways, entering the country illegally certainly qualifies as such. By declaring that, momma could be barred from re-entry for up to 10 years. There -are- ways around that, though they all require strong legal representation, which, let's face it, the vast majority of immigrants can't afford.
The Tax Foundation only had 2005 numbers available when I bookmarked the page a month or two ago. And i know things have changed since then, but none of your links provide the full picture, so I"m going to post this one for some historical data:
http://taxfoundation.org/artic...
As of 2005, the States that paid more to the Federal Government than the spending they received in return were:
New Jersey
Nevada
Connecticut
New Hampshire
Minnesota
Illinois
Delaware
California
New York
Colorado
Massachusetts
Wisconsin
Washington
Michigan
Oregon
Texas
and Florida
Rhode Island was break even.
The rest of the states, at that point, were the recipients of that taxation.
Especially since everyone not rich or poor left California.
You realize that you make a ton of money selling food to other states?
You realize that Trump's stated immigration policy is going to make that impossible without a higher minimum wage, right? California already has food rotting in fields because we can't come up with enough labor to harvest it. We're not going to be able to feed the whole country simply because we won't have enough hands. We're going to have to cut back on those exports, especially if we have to cut back on our water consumption.
Even doing so, we'll still be able to raise prices because we do frankly produce the best produce, and the rest of the nation will still want it. And you'll also pay just for access to our ports for your imports from other nations.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
I guess that the wall street greed gravy train has screeched to a halt. Wall street and Washington D.C. have been in each others' pockets for so long and now they fear that they can't just buy all rulings to be in their favor and conduct themselves sans accountability. The greed of the few just isn't as lucrative as it was before if the Washington swamp gets drained. It will still be the most lucrative tech economy on the planet, just not as obscenely so. Investors; grow up, stop whining and have a dram of couth toward the common man - at least, let them have the crumbs of your table.
And it did so permanently. Once you become a state, you can't "unjoin", secede or leave. End of story.
Now if the government would actually start charging people with treason for saying this kind of crap and prosecute them and make them look at real jail time in a real prison, that might just put an end to it. Even former Texas governor Rick Perry was talking succession smack talk for a while. The state of Georgia passed a law 4 years ago that the current governor signed that says if the state legislature votes to nullify a federal law or executive order because they decided that it wasn't constitutional, the citizens and the state of Georgia don't have to obey said law or order. That's not succession but it's close. And the Obama administration didn't even threaten anybody over that.
But only if you take on all the debt. And acquiesce to continued US administration on all matters of international trade.
California: you have to take responsibility of your fair share of the national debt By paying Income tax on all current
and future Net incomes, And your fair share as a percentage is the average of the 3 percentages :
Your state's population Divided by the country's population Plus
The sum total federal dollars spent in or on matters related to your state over its entire lifetime divided by the total federal dollars ever spent by the Federal government
PLUS your state's annual economic output divided by the country's annual economic output.
e mail marketing Turbine suas vendas com e-mail marketing e potencialize suas oportunidades de negócio!
Northern Cal would secede from Southern as they have always wanted and likely stay with the rest of the country. Meaning all the good Emerald Triangle Weed leaves as well. Oh and the water... could be diverted by them before reaching the South. Turning SoCal back into the desert it once was.
SoCal hates weapons, so it would be taken back by Mexico quickly. Meaning all the illegal labor would likely jump back to the US as well.
Of course they would control the Western Port, but being that the East has the other two and the US could control costs via tariffs, not a problem.
I guess the new Hollywood would likely go to Florida, where it was planned originally any how.
and on........
Cant we all just get along...
Silicon Valley can just threaten to cut off the US's Netflix, and the whole thing will be over without a shot being fired.
You are welcome on my lawn.
Sooner, better
Okay, looks like it’s time to dust off my post-election-day secession rant.
The dividing lines in this country are as clear as a jigsaw puzzle. But like a jigsaw puzzle, the pieces are so tightly interlocked that there’s no way to pull it apart without wrecking everything.
Let’s start by ignoring what the Constitution says: if somebody’s splitting off from the US, its laws are not theirs to follow. Never mind legality or morality, let’s just ask, can parts of the US secede without killing millions and impoverishing us all? Those are the stakes.
Borders. Let’s take the Northeast as an example, from Maine to New York. Solid blue states, easy enough to make a nice country out of. Well, except for most of New Hampshire. And upstate New York. And central Massachusetts and inland Maine, and Staten Island, and the town I live in near Boston... if secession is on the table, what’s to stop these regions from seceding from their states? Suddenly your country looks more like a federation of city-states, surrounded by hostile rural territory. America’s internal border is fractal, from the national level right down to individual bedrooms. If you insist on contiguous state borders, what are your options? Call out the state militia to occupy rebellious Staten Island? Partition and forced emigration? Ask India and Pakistan how that worked out.
But let’s suppose you get the territory bit worked out. What about the national debt? If a breakaway republic leaves the US without taking its fair share of the national debt, it’s effectively stolen trillions of dollars. If it gets away with it, everyone else will break away too, the debt will be abandoned, and every T-bill on the planet will become worthless. That’s $18 trillion of investment wiped out, a scale of debt write-off at least times worse than the mortgage crisis of 2007, a hundred times worse than Greece. This is your social security money, your pension, wiped out instantly. And if a breakaway republic *does* take its share of debt, a small young unstable nation isn’t going to be offered the same interest rates the USA gets. It'll immediately find itself in a Greek-style debt crisis.
The federal government owns a lot of stuff, and some of it is hard to move. What happens to the mineral rights, national parks, military bases, federal buildings, and post offices in a breakaway republic? Will it pay the US fair market value for them? Because they can’t afford to. If they seize them by force, is the US justified in reclaiming its property violently? Speaking of violence, what happens to the aircraft carriers and F-22s? Who gets the nukes? I don’t want them, but if I’m going to share a continent with a bunch of nuclear-armed belligerent xenophobic nationalists, I might need some.
With this much to fight over, it’s clear that two divided Americas would be hostile to each other, possibly at war, but each would have lots of citizens who sympathize with the other side. The history of minority groups who sympathize with the enemy is long and bloody. Iraqi Shias. Japanese-Americans during World War 2. Rwanda.
Dividing a country turns its internal conflicts into external conflicts. Internal conflicts can be solved through politics, but the main way nations solve external conflicts is through economic and/or literal war. It’s naive to believe that partition would be peaceful: civil war, forced emigration, or global economic collapse are pretty likely. Maybe you think the risk of these is low enough that it’s worth a shot. I don’t.
Ya, I'm sure the companies of Silicon Valley would want to relocate to Ontario.
And that article was written before another round of electricity rate hikes, and a carbon tax being introduced this year. Ontario used to be referred to as the economic engine of Canada. It's been so poorly managed it is now considered a "have not" province and receives payments from Newfoundland, Saskatchewan, and BC to prop it up.
Silicon Valley may have hidden 2 trillion but that is out of 20 Trillion it has paid in as taxes during the last 10 years. California is large enough to be self sustaining. It is a large exporter of food so even if the Central valley farmers want to secede back California would still have food. Plus even though the Central Valley farmers vote Republican most of them are not white supremacists - heck there is a large population of Sikh farmers who migrated down from Canada before it was legal for non whites to become citizen (1965) and married latino women (who were here before California was in the US). They own most of the fruit orchards in Central Valley. These may be conservatives on issues of tax and welfare spending but they are not white supremacists. California vote was much more lopsidedly Democrat this election than in any other. So if the secession is about fighting racism they would stay.
**Life is too short to be serious**
California is a major exporter of food- it doesnt need Nebraska's food. It also has a large number of army bases. Any attempt to cutoff water would be considered an act of war followed by bombing of the dams trying to cutoff the water. Those other western states are also pretty liberal and economically entertwined with Califronia. They may just come with California.
**Life is too short to be serious**
The times have changed. When Ireland wanted to leave the UK in the 19th century it led to war but when Scotland wanted leave UK in the 21st century it led to a referendum
**Life is too short to be serious**
Sure California will take the share of the National Debt as long as it also gets its share of the Social Security and Medicare trust funds. They would mostly cancel
**Life is too short to be serious**
States joined the union by having their state legislatures ratify The Constitution, thus agreeing to the terms which grant the federal government its powers. According to the Bill of Rights, Amendments #9 and #10, the federal government has only those powers specifically delegated to it in The U.S. Constitution. There is nothing in that Constitution which states that the decision to join the union is irreversible. There is likewise nothing in that Constitution which grants the federal government the authority to use military force to coerce states into remaining in the union. Had those provisions existed in the document, none of the original states ever would ratified The Constitution until the offending text had been removed. In fact, when the Virginia legislature ratified The Constitution, they simultaneously passed a bill which clearly stated that they were doing so only with the understanding that their legislature could reverse its decision at any time.
This issue was not "settled" in the 1860s simply because the North was able to use brute force to subjugate the South. Lincoln was wrong(and an evil bastard) and the SCOTUS was wrong in its "Texas v. White" decision. The South was right.
The idea of CA liberals wanting to secede from the union is nevertheless hilarious. Movements who seek to restore state sovereignty as well as groups advocating outright secession have generally been right-leaning and are met with total condemnation by the political left. Still, if their state government votes to withdraw from the union and form a sovereign country, they have every right to do so.
First, you overestimate how much food your produce. I live in Colorado and regularly look at where my produce comes from. Basically the food I eat, it's berries and grapes that come out of California, and that's only during the right time of the year. All of my vegetables, all of my cereal grains and probably a good half of my fruits, none of that is product of California. You're irreplaceable for basically almonds and avocados. That's it. Yeah, my berries would become a bit harder to come by as it would move to Washington, so early season might disappear, but oh well.
Second, pull up a heat map of the political leanings of your state. I think you'll find that all that farm land isn't as likely to go along with your wacky plans as you might think. Turns out they may not have such a problem with Trump.
So is New York and you don't hear them crying in their beer.
Like Florida, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin and Michigan....
LMOL tell that to all the other food producing state moron. How's that drought working out for you...
What tech? From a manufacturing stand point none of it is made here. Then of course most of the workers are H1B Visa holders or the work is outsourced. So not much of a jobs employer. And as for paying taxes, what taxes. Cupertino has been trying to get Apple to pay more in taxes to help pay for infrastructure costs.
And without water, you aren't growing much.
Move along Potsy.
I hope his supporters take a cue from her and start behaving with some class and dignity.
TFTFY.
ouch. awkward.
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
Vancouver has a lot of tech companies because of it's close to California. There's a lot of graphics work as a lot of movie and TV work goes on there. The big downside is the price of housing. And there is Montreal too which has more of a focus on gaming (building, not playing).
I wouldn't say that we don't have any Trump-like entities. Currently we don't but there's a Trump-lite who might run for the Conservative Party leadership.
ad absurdum
Is that Latin for "funny commercials"?
I only look human.
My mother is a halfling and my dad is an ogre, so that makes me an Ogreling
Sounds like what you guys need is different sets of laws for cities and rural areas. Have universal health care, gun control, legal abortion and legal pot in cities and have the opposite in rural places. Then everyone's happy. Then you elect two "vice-presidents" that take care of most of the non-national stuff. Not really serious, but it almost seems like it would solve a lot of problems.
Opus: the Swiss army knife of audio codec
No. Stop. Don't.
We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
Actually there are some small industries related to tech and agriculture also. It seem odd to miss those things when talking about California.
There is also a teensy tiny little entertainment industry which the US depends upon for goodwill from other nations hungry to consume our media. The rest of the world already understands that California is not like the rest of the country. What happens to the USA's reputation if California's not even a part of it any more?
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Back in the 90s and early 00s I used to go back and forth from Rhode Island to Toronto every weekend or every other weekend (and off to Bobcaygeon).
I was envious of the prosperity across the border. American Exceptionalism became less exceptional.
>more stringent ecological rules and laws
>higher taxes
>universal healthcare (OHIP).
>whole corridor from Windsor to Oshawa more prosperous than anything with comparable population south of the border.
Somehow it seems that there's been a bunch of lyin' by certain politicians over the decades.
--
BMO
O'bummer better quit dilly-dallying, only 70 days left to take our guns!
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
The US would lose the 7th largest economy in the world, not the nation, the world. Bad move.
putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
It depends on how you count. If you include people who died due to things like starvation, disease and lack of medical care ( limited at the time as it was ) due to economic conditions created by the war, I have seen numbers estimated around 1.2 million. The 600K figure is people directly killed in the conflict.
Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
There are only 2 states which get more money fro DC than send back in taxes, WY and AK. Both red states.
putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
tell that to all the other food producing state moron. How's that drought working out for you...
About as well as that flooding has been working out for everyone else.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Obviously this is all a plot by Obama to declare an emergency, declare Trump unfit to lead and install himself as permanent dictator. Then finally he can get around to taking our guns. It's the only way Hillary is going to stay out of prison.
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
The Trump-phobia is ridiculous. Trump and the Republican establishment have a shaky relationship. Why would you think the Republican party, that was at great pains to distance itself from Trump's ideas and policies, would suddenly reverse course and support them? With Republican control of House, Senate and likely another conservative on the Supreme court, they have all the tools they need to stop Trump from doing anything extreme. Rest assured they WILL use those tools because to go to far out there would be political suicide and these people expect to be in power long after Trump has moved on from the presidency.
tldr; the sky is not actually falling. The biggest risk from Trump is him making embarrassing statements.
yes well a huge part of that is driven by things like imaginary property. Cali is also an agricultural powerhouse and does have a lot of natural resources but if Cali had to exist in isolation and cope with a neighbor that might decide it does not care so strongly about enforcement of Cali's IP rights suddenly SV might be a lot less valuable in terms of economic output.
The numbers alone don't really tell the story.
Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
No, you're the poopypants!
The water compact that already includes Mexico?
Let us see how the rest of the US likes trading with the Pacific rim via the Panama canal, or paying a CA transit tariff.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Also note the size of the CA economy. The western part of the US would be smart to watch themselves to avoid getting crushed.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
The SS trust fund hasn't had an operating surplus in about a decade.
Money is, in fact, flowing the other way. Ink isn't dry.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Silicon Valley wants to break away from the union?
How is replacing one facist government with another going to improve anything?
That's a relatively recent change.
During the cold war bases were largely forward deployed and CA was a net taker. After the cold war ended, the CA bases were disproportionately closed because they were expensive and there were more of them.
Ignoring the billions that CA took before it became a contributor isn't reasonable.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
The debt _is_ (largely) their share of the SS and medicare trust funds. Duh. There is nothing there debt.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Stop contributing funds to the federal govt. Pass a state law that the IRS will not have jurisdiction in California and let Californians stop paying Federal tax. Also sell all Federal bonds owned by all California Pension funds and but California bonds. Use the bonds to run the economy till California can negotiate a secession and can print its own money. At that point income taxes can be reinstated. Arrest any IRS officers who do try to come to California.
Money makes the world go round. When the federal govt is no longer getting any money from Califronia but is still having to pay salaries to military posted in California, medicare to hospotals in california and social security to retirees in California they will soon be starving for money given the size of the California population.
Negotiate for independence or a revote for President based on a popular vote.
Thats the hardball option. Doubt Californicos are series enough to actually go down this path.
**Life is too short to be serious**
> Class and dignity? Coming from a Trump supporter that's rich.
Oh grow up. You're really stuck in that raging fanboism where you think anybody who doesn't throw a tantrum because Hillary lost must be a Trump drone? No, I didn't vote for the reality TV star. When you grow up you'll realize she's just as full of shit as he is. She's been lying as a full-time job since 1977.
Maybe the Japanese will trade us CA for Okinawa or perhaps the PRC for Macau?
Move to BC. It's not quite California but the weather in southern BC is pretty decent. Osoyoos or Oliver might be a bit small but Penticton is right on a lake and could probably build up infrastructure fairly quickly.
um, maybe you should read the article you linked to? He adopted Conservative ideals (fiscal responsibility, for one) to fix some of the problems.
The problem such as it is, is that those who call themselves conservatives these days do not practice fiscal responsibility. You are talking to a Goldwater conservative, who understands the difference between old school conservative principles and the state of the party now.
How ironic, when Jerry Brown is a better conservative than the people who call him a liberal.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
It looks like people in WA, OR and CA has more similarities with canadians than the rest of the US.... just sayin'....
According to Pew Research: 1 in 3 Hispanic/Latino voters voted for Trump. 2 out of 5 women voted for Trump and Clinton got barely more than half. Asian Americans voted overwhelmingly for Trump. In fact in California only 3 out of 5 voted for Clinton overall, and considering the voter depression in the state it could be closer to half than we will ever know.
Your position is disenfranchising anyone who disagrees with you. So much for you being an intellectual who really cares about the minorities in the Country.
-The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.
This seems like the stupidest thing to me. Whatever you think of him as a person, he was elected by a legitimate democratic process. So either you don't like said process (aka it only works when it's a candidate that you like), or you're just a sore loser. Probably both. It does suck that the district-based electoral college doesn't line up with the actual total votes, but that wasn't so much an issue when they voted in the other guy, it seems.
Trump isn't even in office yet. He's said a lot of stupid things, but he hasn't *DONE* any stupid things yet, and frankly he's pretty inconsistent on the doing part of things. You want to protest, then I suggest you find something that's actually being done before you whip out the tar and feathers.
If you really want something to be afraid of, don't fear Trump. Fear a GoP majority, an empty spot on the Supreme court, and two additional spots on the Supreme that are filled by some fairly old judges. That could mean up to three LIFETIME appointees to the Supreme court - you know the place that really is the final decided on a lot of the cases that have affected the citizens of your country - which might get filled with some potentially heavily biased GoP appointees.
If you care about the country so much and you believe it fell into the wrong hands, then why not fight to take back the Congress in 2018 and the White House in 2020? That makes more sense than selfishly plotting secession which is guaranteed to break the back of the progressive movement you claim to love by withdrawing one of its core financial and political bedrocks from the system.
It might help undo our own catastrophically stupid, anti-status quo protest vote and prevent Scotland leaving/replace Scotland when they leave.
And you know, States do not have the right to secede from the Union.
Texas V White:
"...the court further held that the Constitution did not permit states to unilaterally secede from the United States, and that the ordinances of secession, and all the acts of the legislatures within seceding states intended to give effect to such ordinances, were "absolutely null"."
Sorry, teleporters just kill you and then make a copy. A perfect, soul-less copy.
More likely CA east of the coast range leaves CA and rejoins the USA.
Which would leave the new nation of CA without water.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Yesterday, the "California secession" searches went down by some 19,000 in one hour.
Today, Bing returns twice as many results as google.com.
Please try it yourself.
https://www.youtube.com/c/BrendaEM
Get in line behind Texas, hippies.
True. But at least some new players are getting their share of the graft. Hillary was just trying to be a pig.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
...I have 2 words for those secession supporting people who have their head deep in their asses: F|_| ( | off.
__________
The more I know people, the more I love animals
you have to take NY, DC and a few others with you.
One for all the right-wing nut jobs who have suggested this. A new, smaller one for left-wing nut jobs. Both. Right into the Sun. Thank-you.
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
You're missing the point that we pay interest on the national debt. And after Obama more than doubled it (meaning we now owe more than twice what we owed from the cumulative debt of all presidents before him), that is a very significant part of the entire budget. Money that could go to other things but is simply paid as interest every year instead.
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
So this is how the NCR (New California Republic) gets founded.
I'm scared. Maybe Bethesda knows something
Open Source Java Web Forum with LDAP authentication
1. Yes they do owe that money, thus why they ought to pay it upon leaving.
Sure, I didn't say they shouldn't pay, but California would just sell bonds to cover it, so there's no real difference to CA residents, they still have the same debt they're just paying it through different bonds. The USA itself may be the largest purchaser of the bonds.
2. The fed gives 32.4% more than what the state tax currently is in California. In order to make up for that shortfall, the state tax would need to increase by the same amount.
But that would be offset by Californians owing no federal tax -- and since California is a net contributor of Federal tax, they'd see a reduction in tax rate. Even moreso because California wouldn't need to fund a global military, they need only fund local defense, so much of the military spending the budget would go away.
3. Look at how well that childish attitude worked out for Georgia, Syria, Turkey, all of central America. Do you really think Trump would push to aid people that left the nation because of him?
This is elementary math and reasoning. Do they have elementary schools where you live?
None of those countries border the USA --- the USA is not going to let a foreign power take over California, regardless of whether California is part of the USA or not because that would give that foreign power a foothold in continental USA. Even ignoring the geography issue, California would be one of the USA's top trading partners, so it's in the USA's economic best interest to keep California from being taken over by an aggressor. Besides, the secession negotiations would include a mutual defense pact, since it would be in both countries best interests.
While it's fun to talk about, a secession will never happen. Despite Trump's blustering, and even with republican senate and house control, it's exceptionally hard to make any broad governmental changes. Though I am a little worried about the Supreme Court.
For *you*. Everyone else gets to do what, exactly?
They can do their own things. There are lots of things to do.
At no point does one of those things become debased by making a profit, which is the assertion that you Mr A.C. made above.
I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
Or the tech companies could move to Canada. The Ottawa valley as well as the Kitchener-Waterloo has a lot of tech startups as well as established companies who are well established. Both of the areas have well respected Canadian universities resident there so the is a good talent pool. And there is the Toronto/Mississauga area which offers the same. Canada has a lot to offer, no Trump-like entities in our political spectrum (thank God) so its something to think about. We would love to have you here, to be part of our sophisticated and affluent society. Just saying :)
We the North :)
You forgot about Mr. Wonderful.
We all know that these funds are about to go broke. If what you say was true then we wouldn't be paying out money to "service" the debt. As it is the money we spend on the debt is more than we pay for other programs such as education or scientific research. It isn't just a concept to be ignored, it is a real drain on the economy and it is a horrible drag on the economy. Google National Drebt yourself, what you find will have more impact on you than if you just read what I can type here. It will keep growing, but it can't keep growing forever. Unless something is done, very soon (likely in your lifetime) the debt will grow to the point that the money this country spend just to pay interest will exceed all of the taxes this country takes in each year. There will be no money for anything else and this country will basically fail. China and the other debtors will own everything, without firing a shot.
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
Then you do not understand the debt. Social Security and Medicare funds are held in a separate trust . Both are currently positive though they are paying out more than they are getting so they are going down in value. The debt is govt bonds which the govt has issued as well as money it has borrowed from the SS trust and Medicare Trust (mostly under Raegan to pay for Star Wars). This money belongs to the Trust and needs to be paid back using taxes which pay into the general fund.
If California leaves it will get its share of the SS&MC trust, will owe its share of the bonds and will owe its share of the money the Federal govt has borrowed from the Trust to the trust. In general it will either cancel or be an amount equal to around 30% of GDP. California can print California dollars or issue California Bonds to cover the same. As without having to pay Federal taxes California will be running a Surplus even bigger than the current one; this 30% debt along with another 20% state debt givinng a total of 50% (which is not high by the standards of sovereing nations ) will be paid down. It doesnt even need to be paid down as most sovereign nations carry a debt. Its a way of creating money supply when the economy slows down withdrawing money supply (by early repdemption of bonds) when the economy overheats. The debt is needed as a dampener on the boom and bust cycles natural to capitalism.
**Life is too short to be serious**
I think these statistics are pretty overblown, according to USDA it is 1/3 of vegetables, not a 'majority'. Also I have not seen a clean breakout that includes Mexican imports.
love is just extroverted narcissism
Silicon Valley Investors Call For California To Secede From the US After Trump Win
You know, that is the stupidest shit I've heard since Trump opened his maw and made his followers howl when he said the majority of illegals were murderers and rapists. Now, let that sink in for a moment.
What these investors are suggesting is even stupider than anything Trump has said. Again, let that sink in for a moment.
I didn't vote for Trump. And I'm upset that he won (for this means the majority of voters who bothered to show up had no problem tagging along his racist platform.)
But this, the suggestion to seceded? What the fuck is this? I can get an individual wanting to leave somewhere else (I sometimes feel that).
But a call to total secession? The amount of privilege behind such an absurd notion, it boggles the mind. And I thought people who wanted Texas to secede were idiots. Noooo, these investors truly take the cake!
This goes to show you can be very smart at investing and still be very stupid at life.
Shervin Pishevar
Should I need to point out that a foreign-born investor calling for secession is the stupidest thing you could do in the current political climate after a nationalist-inspired win? Wow. Fuck. I just don't know how to describe this amount of stupid.
The key factor is debt relative to GDP. Even if your Debt is growing as long as your GDP is growing faster the Debt-GDP ratio is going down and it gets easier to service the debt. Under Obama the Debt has gone up very fast to pay for the financial rescue but the GDP has also grown so the Debt-GDP ratio is very manageable. And Obamas policies are beginning to payoff so under Trump (unless he does something stupid) the GDP is set to rocket and the debt will look like very trivial.
**Life is too short to be serious**
It's like seeing Christmas stuff in the store in September. This election 'season' is now more than a year and a half old. Why can't it be over after the votes are counted?
love is just extroverted narcissism
Now that the bullshit has served its intended purpose.
Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?
Said like a true better-than-though left wing social justice warrior... or a right-wing-religious nut. Whichever offends you more!
Wait, you said "over there" like you're not from round dees parts. Whar ya from stranger? Ya sound like a gol durned foreigner an we don't take kindly to gol durned foreigners telling us how to live our lives!
(On a more serious note, I'm amazed at how much people got twisted over this election. If there was ever a time to freely admit that you could understand why someone would oppose your own candidate, this was it!)
The people of the 3 states of the west coast of the United States are vastly underrepresented in the U.S. Senate.
Think about it:
area of 13 original colonies:
338,900 square miles
area of 3 west coast states (CA, OR, WA):
333,371 square miles
And yet, those 13 states have 26 senators, while the west coast has only 6
If the west coast really wants to make a difference for themselves, it won't be through succession, but through balkanization.
More states = better representation in Senate
well, the civil war breaks out again, california will be fighting the union troops with harsh language and rocks, since californian politicians have effectively disarmed all of its law abiding citizens, and most californians don't exactly have pitchforks around the house anymore.
ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI!?
California is a NET CONTRIBUTOR to the federal government.
For the typical /. reader, this means Californians pay more in federal taxes than they get back from the federal government.
Somebody has to pay for the food stamps all those met addicted red state degenerates receive.
Yes, California pays more taxes than they collect in tax dollars but most of the tax dollars goes to programs that California voted for so if you lost all the California tax dollars but were also able to eliminate half the government spending on idiotic things like (to use your example) providing food stamps to people on meth then we still come out ahead.
California sends far more money back up to the Federal Government than it gets back. It's the red states that are typically the subsidized ones, receiving back from the Federal Government far more than they pay into it.
Damn pesky facts...
But that money is to fund programs created by California. If California goes and takes all their stupid welfare programs with them then we lose the California tax base but more than make up for it by the reduction in federal spending.
Pay??? You do realize that California, along with almost every other democratic stronghold, contributes huge amounts of tax money to poorer states?
I personally wouldn't mind to see my taxes support my own state, not some farmer in Nebraska.
And so would all those farmers in Nebraska so why don't you liberals stop trying to force your one size fits all social programs down everyone else's throat.
Let the state governments collect their own money to fund their own programs and have the federal government stop collecting money from the states and
then giving it back to them. To name just one example, we don't need or want national health care, medicaid, or medicare. Let the states each decide how
they want to handle taking care of their medical problems.
Yeah.. the US Government won't ever give up its most lucrative state.. (ditto with Texas or NY).. At least not without a major fight..
God made the Idiot for practice, and then He made the School Board -- Mark Twain Look for http://Thebar.steelbeachca
nor would the US government even begin to allow one of the states to succeed from the union. That was established a long time ago by the confederate states, Texas, and Utah.
The difference is that the rest of the country didn't want them to leave. Texas wouldn't be able to leave because both the democrats and the republicans would try to stop them. If California wanted to leave, the red states would likely jump on board and getting a 2/3 majority in the house would be easy. The red states want California to leave just as much if not more than California wants to leave. The senate would really be the only roadblock because California only gets 2 votes there and there are a lot of small blue states in the east that likely wouldn't want California to leave.
California pays more to the Federal government than it gets back (it's a "maker" state not a "taker" state), and the state has a surplus.
This lose of revenue would more than be compensated for by the reduction in the size of the federal government once the red states could get rid of all the liberal programs and regulations they don't like.
Actually the "Government" would never have a choice in the matter. Rather, a constitutional amendment ratified by 3/4 of the states would suffice. My thinking is that many states would like to see California gone because then they can be "Red As they Wanna Be" (tm)
The law is not an ass. No really.
California's federal aid goes towards programs required by the feds, but as those programs would end (or be selectively implemented if desired), their budgetary requirements would shift.
Likewise for the rest of the country. If California left, the red states could terminate all those programs required by the federal government and likely make up any lost revenue from California leaving.
What so many fail to realize is that the Blue states are net exporters of Federal Tax dollars. We pay far more than $1 for every $1 of federal spending that comes back to our states. The Red states, on the other hand, suck off the teats of the blue states. You'll see no improvement, only even fewer tax dollars to support you than you already get.
Sure you pay more that $1 for every $1 you receive but your stupid social programs and regulations probably cost us $2 for every dollar you give the federal government so in some ways you are a net taker. If you took your revenue and your laws with you, the net revenue of the rest of the USA would probably increase as they no longer had to fund a bunch of stupid liberal programs.
While it's fun to talk about, a secession will never happen. Despite Trump's blustering, and even with republican senate and house control, it's exceptionally hard to make any broad governmental changes. Though I am a little worried about the Supreme Court.
It's not the republican senate that is the problem, it is the democrat senate. The republican house would love for california to leave. The republican house plus the democrats from California could easily get the 2/3s needed to start the process. The problem there is that california only has 2 votes in the senate and there are likely a lot of democrats in the small eastern states that would not want a large portion of their liberal voting block to leave.
Since California gives more to the Federal government in taxes than they get back in benefits, you could say that their "share of the national debt" is negative. We would owe them a rebate, in fact.
That's only if you look at money flow not who voted to spend the money where. The programs and regulations voted on by california contributed greatly to the national debt.
While it's fun to talk about, a secession will never happen. Despite Trump's blustering, and even with republican senate and house control, it's exceptionally hard to make any broad governmental changes. Though I am a little worried about the Supreme Court.
It's not the republican senate that is the problem, it is the democrat senate. The republican house would love for california to leave. The republican house plus the democrats from California could easily get the 2/3s needed to start the process. The problem there is that california only has 2 votes in the senate and there are likely a lot of democrats in the small eastern states that would not want a large portion of their liberal voting block to leave.
Ahh, sorry, I wasn't clear in that last comment -- I didn't mean I was worried that the US Government wouldn't let California secede (well, they wouldn't), but rather I meant that despite the doom and gloom, Trump is not going to destroy the country, he doesn't have that much power. So California would have no reason to secede.
Which economically would be massive windfall to both the government coffers and the economy as a whole.
I for one would love to see the US tax policy be competitive with countries like Hong Kong and Singapore combined with incentives for R&D and domestic manufacturing would be great for the US. It would decimate Europe and the UK as well as chunks of Singapore. Some of Hong Kong's export centric companies would survive but the investment centric services would certainly feel the pinch.
Well, party's over for you.
Why do you think that?
I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB...
This is not a new idea, Californians have been aware for a long time they provide far more to the Fed than they get in return.
The point is not whether this is a good idea; the point is Brexit and Trump have now proven that for the first time, this idea is actually doable.
Did you ever wake up in the morning, with a Zombie Woof behind your eyes? -- FZ
People pissed off a Republican was elected did this before, starting with South Carolina, 1861 - tell me how that worked out
-- 73 de KG2V For the Children - RKBA! "You are what you do when it counts" - the Masso
It doesn't take money to do good schooling, it takes classroom control, not teaching nonsense, and students that speak the English language. With the huge influx of Spanish speakers, California is hamstrung.
Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
You misspelled "porn."
Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
That's a strange way to look at it. Bottom line: Even with the "programs and regulations", California is a net contributor to Federal coffers. That means they don't contribute to the debt. Also, California has the same number of senators as Texas, Oklahoma, and all the Southeastern states where they don't wear shoes. They're no more responsible for "programs and regulations" than any other state.
You are welcome on my lawn.
CA wouldn't know how to survive without tax welfare.
You're kidding, right? California is no where near the top when talking about how much the state sends in tax dollars versus how much it receives from the federal government.
Calexit? Over your dead body. Its time we break the sillycons and take their assets until their tax bill is paid in full.
Apple's tax bill is paid in full, the same as president-elect Trump's. The evidence clearly indicates both Silicon Valley, and our next president, took liberal advantage of a deeply flawed tax system to avoid paying many millions in taxes.
Please -- feel free to break Mr. Trump, and take his assets too. I bet though, in four years from now when everything is said and done, that neither the Donald or Apple will end up paying any more in taxes than they are now.
The Koch's don't actually give that much money out - orders of magnitude less than Soros and company. Part of the reason morons like you (oops) believe that they do is that a large part of Soros' money goes to fooling idiots into thinking that the Koch brothers give out huge sums of money. I see he got his money's worth on you.
Do you have ESP?
I suspect that the Canadian system might be based on one that Britain, France, or any other developed country except the USA has.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Living in the central United States dustbowl desert of the 6 degree Fahrenheit warmer world that your new President is ushering in by spiking the global agreement to start curbing GHG emissions.
Canadians will be happy to sell you food from the northern prairy breadbasket, and even water. Only $1 per litre.
Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?
History will show it was the right that turned the world into a Mad Max hell-hole, and it really started, right around now.
Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?
CGP Gray did a good video on this topic...
https://youtu.be/S92fTz_-kQE
Ok, this is Texas, not California, but the same principle applies...
In short, the US Constitution is mute on the subject, but the US Supreme Court has ruled, "No, there is no secession, you cannot leave".
If you want to go, there are two ways to make it happen.
1. Revolution
2. Constitutional Amendment
Neither of those are likely to happen
that those signs were printed for other anti-Trump protests. There were lots and lots of those pre election ya know?
Show me the proof protesters were paid cash.
Professional inciters? You don't need to be a pro to rile up a crowd after a Trump win. Again, show me the money.
Alert Media? Gee, it's almost like they were covering a major national election or something.
You've been manipulated, but not by a few tens of thousands of anti-Trumpers.
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I don't just think it, it's a fact. We know historically what the markets did, and we know for a fact that if he had simply put all of his money in the markets, he'd have just as much as he claims to have now. Rather than disputing facts, perhaps you should be reconsidering your belief that he's a great businessman, because he isn't.
When the science gets done we can make a neat gun, for the people who are still alive.
Wanna buy a shirt?
https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
It's more of a "nobody including me will be able to do it anymore, but i don't care because i got a much better toy"
But I fully support the creation of the California Free State. Just don't go to war with Tir Tairngire.
If CA seceeds, and Apple is in CA, how on earth will I get my next Iphone? It'll have to be imported from another country!! Oh wait, Apple's product was made in China and their corporate headquarters were in Ireland when I got my last Iphone. Never mind.
The interest rate on the debt is currently manipulated by the federal reserve. Who buys all the 'extra'* bonds at every auction. Sure we're 'servicing the debt', by rolling it into new 0% bonds. Chumps are starting to stop buying the bonds, other are only buying them for political reasons.
* extra bonds being defined as any bond that was going to cost more than 0% (-2%+- after inflation).
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Q: What would happen to a private insurance company that tried to hold company bonds as reserves for a pension plan?
A: They would be shut down and the corporate officers in prison. Not arms length transaction. Not prudent investment. Horrible risk management.
Once US bonds get derated, the lie will be even more open. But the above points are already enough to jail the SS trustees, were they not holding the cops reins.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
I think the people of California should go and live in China and see what their undemocratic views really end up becoming.
The rest of their country voted Trump in and that was a democratic decision by the people of the US. Part of living in a democracy is to gracefully accept when the majority of your fellow citizens disagree with you that you must happily abide by that decision.
Certainly you have a right to protest when clearly what Trump is doing is seen to actually be bad, I would defend that, but the guy isn't even in office yet.
To start calling for California to leave the US is just being childish and a spoilt brat, what is up with people nowadays. We are having the same thing here in the UK where the spoilt brats in London can't accept that they and their peers elsewhere in the country were offered a vote to leave the EU, and the vast majority of us did and are now trying to undo it because they think their minority view is more important than the rest of us.... F U C K O F F !!!
Martley, Near Worcester UK.
Can they make water? Because they get from Arizona.
... California to secede from the US ...
We tried that, about 150 years ago. It did not turn out so well ! 8-P
You think the "DamnYankies" shafted the Southerners, just see what they do to California ... ;-)
Actually, the issue of secession being constitutional was never settled. The issue was selectively ignored after Andrew Johnson invited all the Supreme Court justices to dinner and broached the subject of prosecuting leaders of the rebellion.
NRRPT/RCT
Sure is convenient when you can just imagine someones actions, let alone their motives or intentions without even knowing the truth, then just attack them based on that instead of actually finding our or heck even thinking.
Saves alot of time, you are so smart.
Yes the Civil War confirmed that nicely. How exactly are you contributing to the conversation with that post?
I ignore Anonymous Coward posts. If you want to discuss something, that's awesome. Log in.
SV wouldn't even exist without decades of huge government military spending. By rights, the US tax payer should own most of those tech companies as they created their products.
You are aware that outside of the US, most of California's big industries wouldn't exist? No Hollywood, no aerospace, no silicon valley, no rich countries to sell their agricultural produce to. California only contributes more to the treasury because SV gets to use US military technology for free. US taxpayers all over the country spent tens of billions making things like the Internet and GPS, some nerds in turtleneck sweaters come along and put them in a shiny box, then declare themselves wealth creators.
California wouldn't have a tech industry outside of the US. The vast majority of the most valuable technology used in Silicon Valley was created by the US military. Unless you think an independent California is going to create its own GPS to use on those shiny phones? And outside of the US, who are they going to sell that agricultural produce to? Rich countries and trade blocs put import tariffs on agriculture to protect their own food security. Oh, and now you're doing it without water from other states. And no US border force to protect you from the drug cartels.
Democrats can't handle it when people don't vote the way they want them to.
Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!