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Study: Most Students Can't Spot Fake News (engadget.com)
Even those who think that the U.S. Presidential election wasn't affected by the swath of fake news articles swirling on Facebook and other social media networks, they tend to agree that there is a lot of misinformation on the web. At Slashdot, it's hard to say that anyone here will not be able to tell fake news from a real one. But what about kids? How is our future generation doing? Not so well, apparently. An anonymous reader shares an Engadget report:A Stanford study of 7,804 middle school, high school and college students has found that most of them couldn't identify fake news on their own. Their susceptibility varied with age, but even a large number of the older students fell prey to bogus reports. Over two-thirds of middle school kids didn't see why they shouldn't trust a bank executive's post claiming that young adults need financial help, while nearly 40 percent of high schoolers didn't question the link between an unsourced photo and the claims attached to it. Why did many of the students misjudge the authenticity of a story? They were fixated on the appearance of legitimacy, rather than the quality of information. A large photo or a lot of detail was enough to make a Twitter post seem credible, even if the actual content was incomplete or wrong. There are plenty of adults who respond this way, we'd add, but students are more vulnerable than most.
Teach logic to preschoolers, I say.
But that might lead to critical thinking.
"His name was James Damore."
Now I understand why Facebook uses an algorithm to decide what's real news or not
The algorithm is very bad at it, but this tells us the youngsters who did this before, were even worse.
Lemmings. I, by default, trust nothing. Not a way to live really but is imposed on us. So sad...
The participation awards and the focus on self-esteem have done their part, certainly.
HBI's Law: Frequency of calling others Nazis is directly correlated with the likelihood of the accuser being Communist.
"At Slashdot, it's hard to say that anyone here will not be able to tell fake news from a real one."
Judging by some of the discussions over the last few days on similar articles I doubt this.
Jeeze! All they have to do is turn on the TV... It's all lies. Some are just better than others
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
It's so hard to tell...
Hillary lost to a despicable loud-mouthed clown because the electorate looked at her and found a lying, unscrupulous, corrupt, unlikable, arrogant harpy whose only accomplishment is marrying Bill Clinton.
Quit trying to excuse Hillary's loss. It's all on the Democrats who selected her to run for President.
No surprise here. Kids can't get sarcasm either.
I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
What do you expect when you do not emphasize critical thinking and analysis? The American school system has never been about teaching kids how to think, just what to think, to accept the corporate American mindset. This makes for the best workers who will do their jobs but never question the overall system.
Teach logic to preschoolers, I say.
But that might lead to critical thinking.
And that might result in some poor little snowflake's "safe space" being challenged.
Can't have THAT!
If that was true, then all of those that went through the school system 40 years ago would be, as you suggest, well educated and very well spoken. In my personal experience, that's most certainly not the case.
All well and good, but who raised these kids?
This clearly illustrates the one area where schools lack: critical thinking
Our school system is really only designed to enable rote memorization:
Memorize your multiplication tables.
Memorize the dates of the Egyptian empire
Memorize the themes in To Kill a Mockingbird
Memorize that mitochondria is the powerhouse of the cell
They are given a book, told "this book is truth, memorize this book," and so yeah, seeing an article with ulterior motives would throw them for a loop.
If you want better politicians, you need a better populace. If you want a better populace, you're going to need a better public school system that teaches students more than just numbers and facts. We need to teach them how to think critically, how to examine the world around them, and how to leverage the internet as a nearly unlimited resource, while being wary of the ability for any random jack-hole to post some spurious shit on their blog.
This signature is false.
For those that don't click on sources (ironic considering the article...)
The original on WSJ has a lot more detailed info and examples.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/most-students-dont-know-when-news-is-fake-stanford-study-finds-1479752576
And worst of all, they keep standing on your lawn.
http://www.theonion.com/
A bunch of people who got propagandized and cajoled into doing something different (and we can see now, bad) by a combination of government and media.
Yeah, I see the irony of it too, but the median IQ is 100 and there's no getting around that. Also, most people are followers rather than leaders. They will move with the herd.
HBI's Law: Frequency of calling others Nazis is directly correlated with the likelihood of the accuser being Communist.
Why did many of the students misjudge the authenticity of a story? They were fixated on the appearance of legitimacy, rather than the quality of information.
This is the same reason people get nailed by spear phishing.
We play the game with the bravery of being out of range
My experience is that the people in a generation older than I am have much better English than the average person of my age. Sure, there are problems with some of the more blue collar types with possessives - they tend to think apostrophe-s is a plural. But that is mostly indicative of people who left school before they had much opportunity to do English composition. Leaving school in the 9th grade or so was surprisingly common circa 1955, if you were going to work with your hands anyway.
My mother has better English than my kids do, certainly, as do I. You can only do so much at home to correct the issues. At least I got them to stop saying 'brung'.
HBI's Law: Frequency of calling others Nazis is directly correlated with the likelihood of the accuser being Communist.
Are you a college student? If not, it doesn't apply to you. As it is, most people of the country did have their votes locked in, and it was only the people at the margins in a few states who ended up swinging the election
This study is completely fake and the numbers are just a complete fabrication. (OK, really, did you verify it before posting that this is this NOT fake news because it's on ./??)
The real problem is that many people simply have no inbuilt way to evaluate the truthiness of an article. They do not even know where to start. And so label anything they disagree with as fake, and everything they agree with as truth. Their is as much, if not more, of a problem with real legit news being considered fake as their is fake storied being believed.
Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
I'm fucking sick of this narrativr being pushed on Slashdot. Your first clue that it's politically motivated should have been President Obama using his presidential podium to bitch about it. Your latest should have been how quickly China latched onto the bandwagon. Those with longer memories might recall that China has enforced internet censorship using this exact rationale before; "anti-social misinformation." But "fake news" is much more succinct - it implies that "real news" can only come from "real news sources." Coincidentally this endless propaganda blitz only started after it was revealed how much election info people got from their friends on Facebook. It's yet another media attempt to solidify - nay reclaim - their oligarchal status as outlets that people trusted implicitly. One need look no further than their current behavior - where they are issuing hysterical semons about Trump being "the least transparent President in history" because he didn't inform the media before stepping out for a fucking steak dinner - to see the depths of their panic. After a campaign season where they dropped the last pretenses of objectivity and did their level best to destroy Trump - only to see him win the Presidency - they know their former sainted and respected status as Messengers From Olympus is no more. They can shriek and rage and stomp their feet all they want but nothing will change this. Trump uses Twitter to speak to the masses directly, which underscores the point: they are not just no longer trusted, but no longer needed.
No number of propaganda articles will change that.
Somebody's been eating the memberberries again.
"Member how smart we were as kids?"
"Yeah, I member."
You are welcome on my lawn.
But it is all "Fake News." Once the official news stations started editing video and showing bias, it became a question of degree, not truth or lie...
Ron Paul compiled a list of fake news from mainstream/big media based on the Wikileaks emails from John Podesta. There was amazing collaboration between the Clinton campaign and major media outlets, and spin perpetrated on the world. It is shameful.
http://www.ronpaullibertyreport.com/archives/revealed-the-real-fake-news-list
Offenders include ABC, Bloomberg, CBS, CNBC, CNN, Daily Beast, Huff Po, MSNBC, NBC, NY Times, Politico, Washington Post and more.
Polls were rigged by oversampling democrats vs. republicans/independents so many were flat wrong. Aggregate sites like 538 were wrong. "Legitimate" news sites pushed a common agenda and it was fake. Your only hope is to read multiple outlets, traditional and non-traditional news, with very different points of view, focus on facts, know that the EVERY reporter is biased, take that into account, and draw your own conclusions.
"Who controls the past controls the future; who controls the present controls the past."
-- George Orwell's Nineteen Eighty-Four
This is a dunning-kruger problem. The only way you can tell if something is fake or not, is if you already have at least some knowledge about the subject matter. If there's an article from a trusted news source about how Intel put out a 6GHz CPU, the first thing I would do is check if the date is April 1st because I know about the problems involved.
If an article says someone has discovered a liquid form of a higgs-boson condensate, how would I know different? I mean, it's a condensate , obviously it must condense somehow.
And to make matters worse, in the US there are truth in advertising laws but there doesn't seem to be an equivalent for news. At least, I assume that must be the case, because I can't fathom how Fox News could be viable otherwise.
Fake news is nothing new, and certainly not specific to this past election. The only thing different is that people are finally starting to wake up to how serious of a problem it is.
Ignorance and confidence, that's always a winning combination.
Sadly, it seems to be one lately.
Even those who work as editors at Slashdot, they tend not to correct awkward grammar. At Slashdot, it's hard to say that anyone here will not be able to parse needlessly complex sentences.
This Space Intentionally Left Blank
Do they say 'Broughtened' now?
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
The 'swallowing semen prevents breast cancer' on CNN was an epic high point of fake news.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Even the stupid shit we did was smarter than the kids today. Seriously. We'd paste together a whole pack of EZ-widers and drop an ounce inside of it and roll a stogie, then get accosted by St. Bernards on the way home and think we were going to get eaten by bears or something. We'd steal fire extinguishers from a church and blow them off on a beach. We'd flick matches into the Goodwill box until it caught fire. We'd drop acid and wander through the supermarket grabbing rolls, taking one bite out and throwing it on the floor.
If you have teenage kids, you'll find out that the stupid things they do are just _dumber_. It's like they have no imagination.
HBI's Law: Frequency of calling others Nazis is directly correlated with the likelihood of the accuser being Communist.
That's the point. Teach logic to preschoolers, I say.
Good luck with that. There are kids in their 20s in college who can't budget, can't cook, and if it isn't on Facebook it doesn't exist. There are adults high school (drop-outs) who have never applied for even a part-time job and as a result are too afraid of rejection to give it a try (real special snowflakes) They drop out of government-paid trade schools that give them an extra stipend, and they can't budget either, which is why they get iPhones and home internet on a $150 a month plan as soon as their check comes, go to concerts at $200 a pop, eat out with their friends, and then wonder why they have no money for food or rent.
You don't need to teach them critical thinking - you need to teach them basic thinking. Cause and effect, such as "you spend money on sh*t you want, you won't have money for sh*t you need.".
Last week I had the displeasure to watch one second-year college student who works as a cook in a burger franchise screw up making grilled cheese.
Q: How the hell do you screw up making a grilled cheese sandwich?
They don't have basic life skills and you expect to teach them logic? Sheldon says (and Mr Spock agrees) that is illogical. And we have a new generation of teachers who don't know much either, because they were also special snowflakes. They teach from the book because, like the burger cook, they can't do it if it isn't laid out step by step.
"Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
My argument is that they lack the wherewithal to figure out that the stuff is fake. Whether they will do so or not, regardless of age, is debatable.
My affection for Mr. Randi remains unabated.
HBI's Law: Frequency of calling others Nazis is directly correlated with the likelihood of the accuser being Communist.
It's a self-selection process. Those special snowflakes are the next generation of follow-the-instructions-exactly fast food cooks. They're as good as robots - it wouldn't occur to either to try to find a better way and they just follow the program.
"Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
Actually the ruling party in the US has banned such subject 'indoctrination' of youth.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/post/texas-gop-rejects-critical-thinking-skills-really/2012/07/08/gJQAHNpFXW_blog.html
I had an amazing teacher in middle school. He'd teach us exactly that--how to spot propaganda, false advertising claims, etc. It was probably the best set of lessons I ever learned because now I'm impervious to all the crap.
Of course, if he was teaching today they'd try to brand him as a communist or a "leftist" (whatever that means) because teaching kids to think might make them question capitalism (it does) or religion (ditto).
Questioning is not the same as rejecting, at least if you have a brain, but I was once married to a teacher and she also taught her students logical analysis like my favorite teacher had: the number of fundamentalist dipshit parents who had it out for her was amazing. Yeah, she had the occasional bout of trouble from the special snowflake crowd, but that was dwarfed by the control freak religious nutjob parents.
The participation awards and the focus on self-esteem have done their part, certainly.
I was the special little snowflake in the fifth grade who didn't received a participation award on Awards Day. I was truant too many days to get that one or any of the other made up awards that day.
Education.
Hell, even my generation lacked in critical thought training. I think like most public schools we covered some basic logic at one point, circular logic and simple stuff. Those things take continual training and updates. It's easier not to think about an appeal to emotion that it is to question it, especially if it fits your particular bias.
Socrates stated in the Republic that it was necessary for the public to ensure all citizens were trained in rhetoric. Up until the US move to Prussian education system it was taught as part of the Classical education system. Today, it's barely touched in public schools unless you are on the debate team. Due to budget cuts most schools don't even have debate teams, so...
-The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.
It is if you're the teacher, and you need to have a certain percentage of students pass or you could lose your job. All you need to do that job is ignorance and confidence, don't think or you'll commit suicide at how hopeless it is.
"Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
"The problem with quotes on the internet is it is hard to validate their authenticity" - Abraham Lincoln
"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." - K
The truth is that I still correct them from time to time. They take big pauses before they say anything related to 'brought', because they know it's one of my hot buttons. It requires conscious thinking on their part to say 'brought'.
HBI's Law: Frequency of calling others Nazis is directly correlated with the likelihood of the accuser being Communist.
Lemmings. I, by default, trust nothing. Not a way to live really but is imposed on us. So sad...
This election is the first time in my life I've taken the trouble to dig down past the news reporting into the facts that were reported.
This almost looks orchestrated.
Right now we're seeing the first rumblings of a landslide change in the way news is reported. We're starting by building up a problem in the minds of the readership, being "fake news sites". (Note that it's fake *sites*, not fake *stories*.)
This will go on for awhile until most of the readership simply accepts that "fake news sites" is a real problem that needs to be addressed. Then we'll see sites rolling out their "fixes" to the problems.
Google is pulling ad revenue from sites deemed to be "fake news", under the rule that they are not "advertiser friendly". Expect many ambiguous rules and discretionary enforcement to be implemented. For example, Scott Adams being shadow banned from twitter for having insightful views on the election.
I never knew about Breitbart news until this election, and after following them for the last 3 months I think they're probably the best example of actual news reporting on the net. The site is right-wing slanted, but the actual reporting appears to be high quality and accurate.
Compare with, for example, Huffington Post which had at the bottom of each article about Trump, the statement: "Donald Trump is a serial liar, rampant xenophobe, racist, misogynist, birther and bully who has repeatedly pledged to ban all Muslims—1.6 billion members of an entire religion—from entering the U.S." A direct quote, and I personally saw this at the bottom of several HuffPo articles.
The difference is between *what* gets reported, versus the *style* of reporting. Sites can be left-leaning or right-leaning, but the text shouldn't be obviously dismissive, judgemental, opinionated drivel. Readers shouldn't be told what to think - they should make up their own minds.
So look to the future, where *sites* (not articles) can't be found in search engines, can't get ad revenue, and have to live in the shadows,
Oh, and here's a list of famous fake news articles published by the MSM in recent years.
Also note that the "fake news" scare originally started from a professor creating a list of "fake news" websites was itself fake!. The list has since been taken down, but the term "fake news site" that it coined will be with us for awhile.
The “fake news” freakout: The story about a professor creating an authoritative list of “fake news” websites, as widely reported across the mainstream media, was itself a fake news story. The creator of the list was a madcap left-wing activist who compiled it on a whim, not through any sort of rigorously-vetted academic process. When the list of fake news sites came under sustained criticism, it was removed from the Internet, long after generating a raft of stories on top news websites and TV shows.
As with many of the other stories above, the fake-news-site list received huge MSM coverage because it dovetailed with a Democrat political initiative – President Obama is personally involved – and it flattered both the ideological preferences and business interests of Big Media.
All the major new outlets are guilty of publishing opinion pieces as if they're real news. Maybe not totally made-up fake, but just as bad.
In every generation, many of those kids who had to basically raise themselves turn into self-sufficient people who have learned that you need to be polite if you want something - they didn't have their parents to make sure that they didn't get the snot beaten out of them if they were rude.
That's why many of the kids born after ww2 didn't need to be shielded by their parents - their parents were out doing the two-parent or single-parent work thing.
"Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
To most liberals all conservative news sites are fake news.
As a moderate conservative, the entire right-wing echo chamber is fake. Most of my lily-white, tea-party loving relatives aren't speaking to me since I can easily pop their reality balloons.
has fake news reporters being used in Channel One commercials.
I'm sure there are many websites that can cure your ill. :-)
My school was pre-participation awards, so we got actual awards for good grades. I got a very few, but my penmanship (yes, that's what they called it) was always poor, so i'd get great grades in everything except for that - straight Ds - and miss out on the certificates as a result. Oh well.
My view has always been that the good grades were a reward in and of themselves and didn't need to be celebrated.
HBI's Law: Frequency of calling others Nazis is directly correlated with the likelihood of the accuser being Communist.
They're falling further and further because the shareholders value profits over good journalism. It costs money to put journalists in the field for weeks at a time to get the real niitty-gritty instead of "reporting" on someone else's press release.
"Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
In the literal sense, they are retarded compared to children of similar age 40 years ago
I disagree. You just got a clearer picture of how uninformed and underdeveloped people are. You are looking through the rose colored lens of history. Kids by far and large are trusting. They are not a cynic because nothing has caused them to second guess others. Parents blow smoke up their asses about 'be what you want to be'. Then when they act what little they have been taught they get a huge blowback. They then meltdown on the internet. We see them as stupid and uneducated. By comparison to someone with say 50 years of experience they are. However, I clearly remember my piers as in gradeschool. They are no better or worse than what I see today of the same age group. *WE* get to see more of it more clearly because the internet gives everyone a sounding board to spew whatever comes to mind. The young and old alike. It looks terrible. Because it is. However it is no worse.
Also to judge by my facebook who are 99% 'older people' they are no better. They pass on whatever stupid cogitative bias they have. They are just more articulate about it. They are also in many ways harder to persuade that they are wrong. They have many years of 'experience' to tell them 'how life is'.
In other news, snow is wet.
In the literal sense, they are retarded compared to children of similar age 40 years ago. Their grammar and word usage is worse, their punctuation is worse. Their grasp of mathematics is worse. Their knowledge of history is worse. Their cognizance of current events is worse.
No wonder they are susceptible to propaganda for the stupid. They are in fact the ignorant and stupid, relative to their parents and grandparents.
Cite? You've made a lot of claims, but offered zero evidence.
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
But that might lead to critical thinking.
Unlikely. Most teachers benefit a lot from the educational status quo, which is defended by the Democratic Party. College professors are the most politically biased group in America. According to some polls, only 3% of them voted for Trump. Our educational system is the problem, not the solution, with a strong vested interest in indoctrination rather than thinking.
You are confusing propaganda with news. Trump saying something on twitter isn't news. Somebody posting an article on facebook isn't news. You have to have a vetting process, and a check/verification process, be it at the editor, but more rpeferably at the reading end too. And no matter what side of the political process you, both Democrate and republican are faulty of using hoax stories, let us call them by what they really are. You take trump as example, but even he fell down the trap with that so called "jihadist" video which was an hoax.
During the hayday of journalism , say 1940 to 1970-80ish , this vetting and verification process was understood, and serious journalism rose above the yellow press. But starting 1980ies and strongly 1990ies, it declined because people are pretty damn cheap. So vetting and serious investigation dropped, dropped and dropped until the cost are so much cut that every damn idiot copy/paste one source be it a AFP , Reuter or a 3rd party rag, check it, they even don't bother changing the wording. Heck now people are considering the shit out of facebook news. It isn't. They are just stories, as likelies to be hoax, taken out of context, or even news, without vetting or fact checking you can't tell. Since there is no vetting process on either side (writing/reading), no double check , those hoax get spread. heck scam too. Steorn. Rossi eCat. And so forth. How often I tried to get people to spot the warning sign ? And get ignored because I am a "liberal" or a "rightwingnut" (depending on the slant of the story I try to point out has problem) or even a "close minded scientist" ?
And frankly, I have been saying for years it is a problem, albeit in skeptical forums, not here. The problem is that critical thinking is a skill one need to learn because it is pretty damn easy to fall into one's bias as long as they go the way one politically think. Nobody Is teaching critical thinking. So for years we have been seeing hoaxes rise as stories and being handled seriously. Heck among skeptic group, what do you think we try to fight for ? Critical thinking is THE skill everybody should be getting. And yet again I predict that this will fall by the byside , being seen as propaganda from butthurt people.
The only point where you are right, is that a lot of media are butthurt now and see that as a problem. But that does not mean the problem is not real. It is real, and I have seen the rise of hoax and scam being treated very seriously , far more than previously in spite of fact checking being so easy nowadays.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
Q: How the hell do you screw up making a grilled cheese sandwich?
At this, I question your own critical thinking skills. The two obvious ways are undercooking and overcooking, which can be a matter of time or heat, or both.
Then there is a matter of ingredients, and methods. I could possibly conceive of more.
The foibles and failings in cooking are well-known and hardly new. Many of them are rather easy to do. They've been fodder for comedy for centuries.
But you treat it is somehow meaningful and significant. It validates the conclusion that you want to have, rather than being an unimportant detail of no real consequence. Nothing new to that either, plenty of stories contrasting one wise fool versus some foolish sage.
Go ahead though, look down upon others, judge them with your wrath. It probably won't come back to bite you.
What is all this sudden bullcrap about "fake news" in a country where it is LEGAL to fictional ALL news (thanks to Rupert Murdoch's News Corporation's multiple lawsuits in federal court) and where the Koch brothers are responsible for most of the "content" on NPR, and everything on PBS and Frontline?
I mean, WTF is all this Prof. Elizabeth Sindars/Merrimack College (WTF that is????) bullcrap about???? This is the Land of Fake News, and has been during my lifetime.
And now . . . for some Non-Fake News . . . .
It was a close choice, but if I had to vote for either one, I would rather vote for Hitler. At least Hitler did something good - he killed Hitler. Maybe he could be an example for them to follow. And he's dead, so just how much damage can he do? Instead of pissing off other countries, the leaders could pay a visit and use him as a dart board. And you could invite all the neo-nazis to visit. They won;t be so hot for him after they get a smell of his rotting corpse. Try running that up a flagpole and see who salutes it.
Sanders would have beat Trump, so blame the Clintonites in the DNC for creating President Trump. At least in 2020 Elizabeth Warren will kick ass on both sides. She'll shatter the glass ceiling based on merit, not on "political dynasty" or "vote for me because vagina."
"Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers."
Blah-blah-blah. Nothing new to your lines.
Odds are you probably don't have clear memories or experiences with the idiocy of children 40 years ago, let alone 60, 70, or 100. Or 200. Or 400.
Whether or not you remember it or not, ignorant and stupid adults exist today, and as kids were the ones who were begging their parents for the latest Sugar-frosted cereal, the latest toys (how along ago was the Cabbage Patch kids craze?), and so forth back then. The same as kids today.
People have been pushing sophisticated bumfuckery for quite a long time, it's just now instead of being a transient flim-flam artist trying to get out of town before being tarred and feathered, it's easy to reach the whole world, and nobody around you cares enough to give you what you deserve. And yes, we can see a lot more stupidity too, since everybody can get a camera and put it on Youtube.
Same with language. It's always been a pretense that language is somehow supposed sophisticated and proper, and a true sign of intelligence is who can follow the rules best. That is not the case. Math, history, current events? I wish you could be transported back in time to see things as they were. Not that you couldn't tell how ignorant the aforementioned adults are today, or look in the papers to see how ignorant the adults were, but it'd be more authentic if you could truly see things as they were.
And actually, since you mention IQ, the 100 being the median is entirely a matter of choice, as the whole process is a constructed one. At least thermometers are based on actual physical principles at some level, IQ is far more divorced from that, but far too many people don't realize that.
Why can't their parents take some personal responsibility? If someone is dumb compared to their parents and grandparents, why aren't the parents and grandparents taking responsibility for their failures?
Learn to love Alaska
We still don't have a definition of what is Fake News. To most liberals all conservative news sites are fake news. To many in both camps Snopes is fakes news because they believe what is probably fake news - Snopes is funded by Soros.
I keep seeing this, but I haven't seen any reputable verification of it.
To quote a very famous man...
The children now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise
That famous man is Socrates.
"Grab them by the pussy" -- President of the United States of America
Please don't spoil vitriol with your reasonableness. Complaining about young people is older than recorded history, as such it is (literally) cornerstone of our civilization.
In the literal sense, they are retarded compared to children of similar age 40 years ago. Their grammar and word usage is worse, their punctuation is worse. Their grasp of mathematics is worse. Their knowledge of history is worse. Their cognizance of current events is worse.
Citation needed. I think you're wrong. Here are charts of A-level performance (national exams taken in the UK at the end of 12th grade) which have shown steady and significant improvements since the 1960s. (Source = http://www.buckingham.ac.uk/wp..., and a further report of data since 1990 = http://www.bstubbs.co.uk/a-lev...)
http://i.imgur.com/RWdWAjx.png
http://i.imgur.com/gJZ5rbb.png
I picked A-levels because they've been the same kind of exam for a long time (as opposed to say the 10th grade O-levels which were changed out for GCSEs).
On the subject of maths, my understanding is that calculus used to be a college course, but now it's taught to loads of high school students. Here's another graph showing increased earlier uptake of calculus:
http://www.maa.org/the-changin...
You could as well have used Global Warming in your example...
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
It's because they're still in school. The smartitivity hasn't finished being installed yet.
Table-ized A.I.
I had an amazing teacher in middle school. He'd teach us exactly that--how to spot propaganda, false advertising claims, etc.
That's great! No, I really mean that. Blessings on that teacher.
It was probably the best set of lessons I ever learned because now I'm impervious to all the crap.
Errr...your lack of self-awareness is astounding. Don't flatter yourself. Yes, you--even you--approach the world with a set of biases. To think otherwise is just myopic. The trick will be to identify those biases and confront them when you see them.
lol. That's just precious.
Someone had to do it.
It has always been a question of degree, from the beginning of time. And yet, some people seem to do just fine with that, while others spend their life savings on a disaster bunker full of gold-plated special edition coins and freeze dried yams.
Someone had to do it.
I never did any of those things.... Not to say the cops didn't pick me up for underage drinking and drop me off at home letting my parents know and knowing full well it was likely I would get a beating from my father but they didn't arrest me. Today they press charges against the kids and give them community service where all the bad kids get together and go clean the park or something. Next thing you know they are all hanging out together and getting into more trouble and doing more community service.
My view has always been that the good grades were a reward in and of themselves and didn't need to be celebrated.
That didn't became obvious until I went back to college for a second time to learn computer programming while working 60 hours per week. I made the college president's list for maintaining a 4.0GPA in my major upon graduation.
"Did not vote for a particular candidate" != "politically biased".
"Reject a particular ideology" != "indoctrinated".
Teach logic to preschoolers, I say.
But that might lead to critical thinking.
Only if you teach them to be rational also. Controlling strictly logical people is just a matter of controlling the premises they are given.
the link between an unsourced photo and the claims attached to it
The irony of the Slashdot article next to the ads screaming, "12 celebrities you didn't know were dead", with a photo of a celebrity who is most certainly not dead.
You mean those with decades more experience with a subject are more skilled, knowledgeable and adept? Colour me shocked.
Higher Logics: where programming meets science.
That wasn't the issue. The issue was the WP giving the DNC a draft of what they had written about something, and giving the DNC person a carte blanche to edit it any way s/he chose. Something that they would never dream of giving the RNC
https://twitter.com/realdonald...
Brandon Victor Davis:
St. Patty's day weekend is like Christmas for black dudes who like white chicks. Happy holidays boys.
More Brandon Victor Davis:
@TAMIKASLAWRENCE the problem is ho's aren't what they used to be. If ho game would step up, cats wouldn't get distracted.
So, who's the special misogynistic snowflake who got upset when Liar Hillary! lost?
Really? Calling women "ho" is OK?
That's the guy you think is qualified to lecture someone on racism?
What color is the sky on your planet?
Nono, we weren't that dumb, its the younger generation that is! Even though every generation has said this since the dawn of time, this time its true!
I had an amazing teacher in middle school. He'd teach us exactly that--how to spot propaganda, false advertising claims, etc. It was probably the best set of lessons I ever learned because now I'm impervious to all the crap.
Of course, if he was teaching today they'd try to brand him as a communist or a "leftist" (whatever that means) ...
Actually he would alternately be branded a communist/leftist and a racist/misogynist/[something]-phobe depending on whose propaganda was being scrutinized.
:-)
There, I reject your implication that it is only the right offering false claims.
What good man were they rude to, and what's Mike Pence doing in that statement?
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
But that might lead to critical thinking.
Unlikely. Most teachers benefit a lot from the educational status quo, which is defended by the Democratic Party. College professors are the most politically biased group in America. According to some polls, only 3% of them voted for Trump. Our educational system is the problem, not the solution, with a strong vested interest in indoctrination rather than thinking.
Or maybe, just perhaps, those college professors know something you don't. Just a thought.
Yes, they know the world of scholarly journals and ivory towers. Not necessarily the real world. The more we move from hard science to soft science the more their teachings are opinions and beliefs, often politicized ones. If you think professors are beyond such things you have not spent much time around them.
I like how people like to scream at millennials about their participation awards...
What generation do you think gave them those awards?
Still think GenX is superior?
I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
I fail to see how any of your examples show how you are smarter than today's youth.
My eyes reflect the stars and a smile lights up my face.
He's acknowledging that the problem exists on the right as well as on the left. I think that's a bit more "part of the solution" than your response, which distills down to "but the DNC got caught doing it, so my party can't possibly be doing it too!"
There are people at the fringes of all political parties who think in strikingly similar fashion, with the only differences being the particular ends they think justify the means. They dismiss or even cheer the bad behavior of "their team" while angrily condemning the same behavior on the "other team". If you ask these people to take a peek from another perspective for a minute ("What would you think if Obama/Trump did this thing that Trump/Obama is proposing?") their response is "Well he would never do that", when what would actually happen is they would dismiss it as benign if it came from their party, or even secretly hope that it might gain them some sort of advantage over their perceived rivals.
The type of people I'm describing are, along with those who put up with such behavior in their own ranks, the *entirety* of many of the political problems we face today.
The issue was the WP giving the DNC a draft of what they had written about something, and giving the DNC person a carte blanche to edit it any way s/he chose.
If you read the actual email, the DNC didn't edit anything. It was a courtesy call that someone's name will be appearing in print, especially since the line in question looks like an accusation. One aspect of the story wasn't mentioned because another source didn't call back to confirm or deny. That's fairly routine journalistic practice.
It isn't always that easy to spot fake news right away. Some hints can be dubious websites but simply because a site is small or obscure, doesn't mean it is a source of yellow journalism. When researching, you have to compare sources.
You can't take personal responsibility for someone else. Not even your kids.
My eyes reflect the stars and a smile lights up my face.
Actually it's both parties.. The right don't want youth thinking through the bullshit of religion, and the left simply bills their own demagoguery as 'critical thought.'
In this study, what is their standard for determining which news is fake and which is real? Are they just referring to actual blatant fake news, or are they including all news from any sources that are not approved by the planet's owners (aka sources the likes of Soros, Rothchild, and other upper echelon entities can not control)?
This space unintentionally left blank.
This just in...study finds that humans who haven't experienced life on this planet that long are rather ignorant.
"A Stanford study of 7,804 middle school, high school and college students...
I mean fucking seriously, what did they expect to find? Wisdom and experience are some of life's greatest teachers, and this test group has obvious limits with both.
Q: How the hell do you screw up making a grilled cheese sandwich?
They don't have basic life skills and you expect to teach them logic? Sheldon says (and Mr Spock agrees) that is illogical. And we have a new generation of teachers who don't know much either, because they were also special snowflakes. They teach from the book because, like the burger cook, they can't do it if it isn't laid out step by step.
Pay someone minimum wage and then wonder why they don't give a damn if they serve your customers burned sandwiches while their minds are too busy trying to figure out how to pay the skyrocketing rent and college tuition on a salary that can't afford you either
I don't know when you went to school, but public schools are largely run by the left these days.. It's more likely he'd be canned for inciting "hate speech" or "space invalidation" when one of his students picks apart some social justice blabber (also learned in school) with his newfound rationality.
Snopes is like Wikipedia, when you get into highly controversial topical issue there's a lot of "there be Dragons Here". They do a lot of discussion on peripheral points then declare something mostly false.
Another site that's gone over to the dark-side is Charity Navigator, they had de-listed the Clinton Foundation due to an non-understandable business plan, the two weeks later give them 5 stars after they became part of the Clinton Foundation.
I chalk it up to the education system, things went downhill fast when philosophy became a four letter word, without logic and epistemology rigorous thought is impossible.
Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
This means almost 1 out of 2 people you speak to voted for trump and just wont tell you because your an asshole.
repeating the same right wing talking points that have been used since Regan to cut funding to education and public services.
Let's see, where do I begin:
1. Real wages are down. Way down. You can't spend money on sh*t you need if you don't have it in the first place. You can't budget what isn't there. And you can't pay your way through college on $17k/yr (full time min wage) when tuition alone is $11k of that, scholarships are dried up or hyper competitive and even borrowing doesn't pay enough to get you through.
2. Kids have learned plenty about cause and effect. See above. They've got the math skills to see they can't afford higher education. Why don't you?
3. Did it ever cross your mind that that 2nd year college kid might just be exhausted from working and studying full time?
4. The "precious little snowflake" movement was an educational movement started by real teachers who had actually studied real students. As opposed to knee jerk armchair commenters like yourself. What they found were millions and millions of unwanted children who existed because their parents had sex. Kids who got little or no positive reinforcement at home and who'd been conditioned to failure. It's a solution for combating that. If you knew anything about teaching or education you would know this. This is what happens when you take something that looks easy (teaching) but is actually really, really fucking hard and don't leave it in the hands of experts. This is gonna get me modded down but fuck it, I got karma to burn: Elites are elite for a reason. Donald Trump is not elite. My friend's mom who just finished her Doctorate in education? Yeah, she's mother fucking bad ass elite.
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... regardless of age. Age does not make people any smarter, just a bit more adept as hiding their lack of insight.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers."
Great quote, but it has more impact if you cite your source: Socrates, 469-399 BC.
If it weren't for deadlines, nothing would be late.
and saying it on /. doesn't make it so.
If you knew anything about our education system you'd know that the reason math scores, grammar scores and even writing and history scores are down is because we're no longer abandoning kids to life in the factories. Teachers work hard and relentlessly to give all kids not just a chance at an education, but an actual education.
Well, public teachers do. If you look at the charter schools you'll find higher scores. You'll also find kids below a B average getting expelled. _Especially_ the poor ones.
So yeah, bigger sample size and taking care of the disadvantaged is where your scores are dipping. Throw those little shits back in the gutter like the good 'ole days and you too can have back your pretty statistics.
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You can't take personal responsibility for your actions as a parent? That must be why all the Conservatives are always talking about personal responsibility. They don't know what it means.
Learn to love Alaska
It's massively improved outcomes for poor and disadvantaged kids. Especially those from broken homes that are predisposed to low self-esteem.
/. post figured out that shitting all over people doesn't really make things better. They're called teachers. Who knew?
Treating people like shit in the hopes that adversity will make them better only works when you don't care about the ones that fall in the gutter and get devoured by rats. Sure, Lincoln went to a log cabin school, but what about the other kids that die before the age of 12 (look up the survival rates past childhood in the 1800s sometime).
Somebody who spent a lot more time and effort than you did on your
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“The children now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise.”
-- Socrates
"Government is like fire; a handy servant, but a dangerous master." -- George Washington
Trump got the exact same voters Romney did. Look it up. Hilary lost because she wasn't charismatic enough to get the swing state voters out for her like Obama did. Also, having a vagina didn't help. Women don't really care about having one of their own in the white house but men don't like bossy chicks.
That said, I'm sure the 20 year long multi-billion dollar campaign of character assassination that at best turned up some very, very mild corruption didn't help things. Seriously, we Dems have to run Jesus H Christ to win against the smear machine the Right Wing Media brings to bear. Look at Obama. I fully expect him to be carried aloft on Angel Wings when he finally does leave office. The best your side could come up with was Sekret Muzlem. You did manage to make that one stick though, so bravo.
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Flame bait, OK. My kids are doing things in elementary school that I did in 7th and 8th grade. I personally teach them to not trust commercials (IMO very important when ever other one is to buy legal drugs that have deadly side effects), so they don't just trust anything thrown at them. At the same time, I don't want them to distrust the whole world... just to be wary/distrust people trying to sell them BS, whether that is a physical product or an idea.
As for the "stupid"... my sibling has an IQ over 150, has a masters degree... and still can't manage money. It's easy to say people are stupid... but the truth is, people are just spoiled and greedy and then close their eyes to the reality around them because they get overwhelmed. 90% of the problem is the credit cards and banks screwing over the masses.
my coworkers were talking about how Hilary lost the popular vote. This is a lie, and a useful lie. It was started on a right wing blog with ties to other right wing propagandists.
If you really think fake news didn't help put Trump in office you're not paying even a little attention. Hell, you don't want to. You're old enough and cynical enough to spot it.
As for Trump, all the things you don't like he's going to do and more. He'll sell you out on a scale you can't even imagine. He's already back tracked on every promise and he's not even if office yet. What I don't know is how to keep you from blaming Obama for the damage Trump's about to do...
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No argument about the kids, but I think you have an overly positive opinion about their parents and grandparents.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
The public school system isn't doing it's job.
You can say that again. ("it's" == "it is".)
If it weren't for deadlines, nothing would be late.
No, I think this is another case of the gulf between haves vs. have-nots widening.
I look at my kids' friends and they blow away the kids I went to school with. It's because they go to school in an affluent suburb with a high education budget which spends that money on curriculum and keeping class sizes small, not sports. Many of these kids will graduate with a dozen AP courses under their belt. They can tell you about the Federal Funds Rate and why it's important, explain how the Whig party collapsed, or who the sides fighting in Syria are and why.
But they are not typical. They may be above average in talent, but what really sets them apart from their peers is the opportunities they have been given, which outstrip anything anyone in my generation had unless they went to an elite private school.
Mark my words, the best educated segment of this next generation will be world-beaters. The question is can they carry the dead weight of their peers who went to schools with broken priorities that struggle to meet even basic standards of performance.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
The question would be, where did they get the idea to conjugate "to bring" as "brung"?
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
Why can't their parents take some personal responsibility? If someone is dumb compared to their parents and grandparents, why aren't the parents and grandparents taking responsibility for their failures?
You would think, that because there was a time when parents actually educated their kids that it would continue. Public education gave everyone a common base to learn from and parents would enrich from their own unique skills and knowledge. Years ago an immigrant family would be bilingual, now they barely speak 2 half languages.
Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
Seriously... I never engaged in rampant shoplifting, arson, or vandalism. I may have TP'd a house. I stole something ONCE. Call me goody two-shoes. My parents had too much oversight to allow me to roam with packs.
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
Funny you should use British examples, I've read something written by Christopher Monchton, and I always have to look some of the words up in a dictionary, to make sure I am understanding them correctly, I suspect that many Blacks in the US can't read the works of Martin Luther King, even with a High School diploma.
Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
now I'm impervious to all the crap.
Good on you!
the number of fundamentalist dipshit parents who had it out for her was amazing. Yeah, she had the occasional bout of trouble from the special snowflake crowd, but that was dwarfed by the control freak religious nutjob parents.
Erm, don't get too full of yourself there buddy. Sounds like you're definitely a victim of leftist propaganda. Sorry, bud, you lose.
It wasn't intended to be witty, it was just stupid. We failed to care much about other people at that age. The rolls were $0.20 at most, so it wasn't like we were doing much harm and the store staff didn't get too torqued up about it.
In contrast, my kids think dull Facebook trolling about appearance is interesting. Even prank phone calls would be better than what they do. I don't even see good graffiti where I live, whereas when I was a kid...one night every white house in the neighborhood became a litany of curses ala "Life of Brian".
Another one I just remembered - somehow, my friends found out my parents' keyless lock entry code for their car. It was a Ford, with a 10 digit keypad built into the driver's side door window molding. Anyway, they spray painted it onto the telephone pole located diagonally from the front door of my house. 48662, assuming my parents would see it when they left the house and get upset. What they didn't realize was that the creosote and tar and whatever else coating on the telephone poles was meant to absorb spray paint, and it did. You couldn't see it - unless it rained. Then the numbers shone out clearly, but when dry you couldn't see a thing.
My parents never figured it out.
HBI's Law: Frequency of calling others Nazis is directly correlated with the likelihood of the accuser being Communist.
Here are charts of A-level performance (national exams taken in the UK at the end of 12th grade) which have shown steady and significant improvements since the 1960s.
What you conveniently forget to mention is that there is a continuous and pervasive media discussion in the UK about whether A-level grades have been inflated over the past few decades. There are some studies suggesting inflation anywhere from two to three complete grade levels, but that may be media exaggeration. However, even more rigorous studies seem to indicate a decline in standards over the decades, even if things have been somewhat constant for the past 15 years or so. Even the first report you link starts out by talking about how A-level grades didn't increase as much as previously in 2012 due to adjustments made to try to hold standards constant.
And frankly, I'd be absolutely shocked if there weren't at least SOME decline. Back when A-levels were first introduced in the 60s, most people taking them were headed for elite colleges. The number of participants has increased something like 8-fold since that time. If the UK somehow managed to improve teaching THAT MUCH over the past 50 years while simultaneously increasing the number of students who previously wouldn't have even considered college to take the exam... well, it would be the greatest educational miracle in the history of the world!
Bottom line is that I don't think we can draw any conclusions about "kids overall" from such stats. Standards may have changed over time. More kids take the exam, which are pooled from different demographic groups. If I had to guess, I'd assume that UK kids are probably somewhat better off in terms of "book material" than their forebears, though independent assessments of reasoning skills (i.e., non-curricular tests similar to IQ tests), etc. seem to show mild declines.
Take from that what you will... but I wouldn't just look at those graphs and assume, "Oh, everybody's so much smarter!!"
Perhaps that "indoctrination" allowed people to see him for the con artist he truly is.
Or, just maybe, "higher education" is just nothing more than an extension of the high school popularity contest, in which you just have to say and do and "question" the right things to get in and play the game? I should know, I still manage to play it every day. Empty shells of people walking around trying to out-signal each other to show who's most virtuous, most oppressed, or most "progressive".
The "indoctrination" is just that. And unless you want to be cast out of the group, you'd better not think outside the box. Or at least, don't say things too loudly. The real world, far outside of the walls of the echo chambers that make up the modern university are something most people there have never experienced. And I'm honestly free of sarcasm when I ask you, honestly, has this thought ever crossed your mind?
You know how I know you have never worked at a public school?
We spend our lives being told so many lies, and then repeating (perhaps creating a few of ) them; it's little wonder that we do not recognize the truth.
Really its hard to have a lot of confidence without ignorance,
once you realize how little you know, its hard to be confident.
They came home from (public) school in Central Jersey with it. I certainly wouldn't have taught it to them.
HBI's Law: Frequency of calling others Nazis is directly correlated with the likelihood of the accuser being Communist.
There are more than plenty dumb adults.
Dumb children don't suddenly pass 30 and suddenly know how to think critically. If you work in an office environment you probably have a strong selection bias who you hang around. (Even the dumbest person in my office is smarter than a lot of people I've met).
There are plenty of older Americans that fall for Phishing tricks, send money to Nigeria, etc.
I too had a very good teacher in high school that taught a class referred to as civics or government, but was in reality a class in critical thinking. It was one of these epiphany provoking experiences that changed my whole outlook on life, for the better I'd like to think. Some call me a cynic, I rather think of myself as a realist. I am less apt to be disappointed in people and things, and am sometimes pleasantly surprised.
errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
by increases in foreign students. Many of these aren't actually students. They're here working full time jobs and with companies using student visas an paid internships as backdoors to get around visa limitations.
Moreover, college has a 60 % drop out rate (Citation). Kids can make it through the first year or two by working full time, borrowing money and hitting up mom or dad (that's an 'or' for most of them, bad economies break families up). But not a lot of them can keep up with that. Most college counselors will tell you to take a hike if they find out you're working even part time after year two. There's not enough spots in the 300+ level courses. They don't want to spend time on a kid they know isn't going to make it, and nobody wants to spend their tax dollars on those lazy little buggers anyway.
The education system isn't failing these kids. It's just taking a measure of how society as a whole abandoned them to their (very miserable) fate. It was always like this. There was no 'golden age' where this wasn't the reality. The difference is we're testing these kids now up through year 2 college and as a result we can not longer pretend that we as a society are not failing them...
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If I had to guess, I'd assume that UK kids are probably somewhat better off in terms of "book material" than their forebears, though independent assessments of reasoning skills (i.e., non-curricular tests similar to IQ tests), etc. seem to show mild declines.
I thought that IQ tests showed marked improvements in abstract/conceptual reasoning skills, and moderate increase in vocabulary skills (4 point increase in vocab skills amongst schoolchildren from 1953 to 2006).
http://www.apa.org/monitor/201...
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/...
I never trust Malcom Gladwell, but he's quoted in that second article saying the exact opposite of OP: "And, if we go back even farther, the Flynn effect puts the average IQs of the schoolchildren of 1900 at around 70, which is to suggest, bizarrely, that a century ago the United States was populated largely by people who today would be considered mentally retarded."
Typically, fake college petitions to "end women's suffrage" or "ban dihydrogen monoxide" pull about a 30% signing rate.
Q: How the hell do you screw up making a grilled cheese sandwich?
At this, I question your own critical thinking skills...
I think the key point you are skipping over here is "a cook in a burger franchise". These typically feature a fixed menu and fixed set of ingredients, and usually have a very well defined set of actions to follow between taking an order and handing over the finished product.
You would expect a minimal amount of training was given to new young employees, but usually you will be disappointed when you find yourself being served by a team of sad looking students.
If I had a DeLorean... I would probably only drive it from time to time.
... and our public education system is one of the worst in the world (not news).
Um... definitely not the worst in the world. There are severe problems, such as NOT teaching logic and critical thinking, but it succeeds in many other areas.
Hey! At least we do not let schoolgirls burn to death because they do not have their hijab handy. See:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
I am pretty sure there was one in Pakistan where over a hundred girls died, but I can not find the article right now. Meh. The point is that those religious schools surely are not teaching critical thinking either and have other things that make them worse than American schools.
"Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
Don't flatter yourself. Yes, you--even you--approach the world with a set of biases.
Yes, skepticism is easy, self-skepticism is hard. Both skills are required for "critical thinking" to take place.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
This tweet is not in the style of Trump, so it was most probably made by his staff. Also, it was obviously made with the intent of trolling those SJW actors.
So, the President-elect's staff are special snowflakes who need safe spaces? [and no, it came from Trump's android phone]
You are welcome on my lawn.
Careful! You (and bartleby.com and GP) might be spreading a misattributed quote.
http://quoteinvestigator.com/2...
see also:
* You can't believe everything you read on the internet. - Abraham Lincoln
* Never, never be afraid to do what’s right, especially if the well-being of a person or animal is at stake. - Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
And you're missing the point entirely. Adults should be able to make a grilled cheese sandwich without f*cking it up. Screwing it up is not, as you claim, an entirely commonplace incident. Same as leaving the house for a couple of hours when you're frying chicken and setting the place on fire isn't an entirely commonplace incident. People prepare food all the time without problems.
As for training, did you really need any training to make a grilled cheese sandwich, make scrambled eggs or fry a burger? We were doing this at home while in grade school. No instructions needed - just watch your parents do it a couple of times. Unless you're of the generation that ate only take-out and microwaved food, and never got to bake a cake and make fudge when you were a kid. Again, we did this at home when we were in grade school. French fries were a bit later because of the danger, but we never set fire to anything accidentally.
"There is no difficulty in explaining a failure. Even a moment of inattention can do it." There's no difficulty explaining why texting while driving is a bad idea either, but when it causes an accident, we punish it.
"Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
The grilled cheeses were for themselves, so they kind of had an incentive to do their best. And since when does a high school dropout worry about the cost of college tuition for themselves?
Also, minimum wage here is $10.75. 2 weeks wages should easily more than cover the rent on a 3-1/2. (Actually, it more than covers a 4-1/2).
"Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
I have dozens and dozens of supposedly intelligent facebook friends who share news so fake I'm initially looking to see if its an Onion article. Really bad.
When I link a snopes article I get "Snopes is fake". No kidding. When I link an article from a credible source that contradicts, I get "Well it sounded interesting. Just passing it along".
If you have man breasts, you're going to have to continue swallowing your own.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
What's the problem with a news site publishing it?
Color me corrected. Thanks for the improvement.
If it weren't for deadlines, nothing would be late.
And yet most people never have a fire in the kitchen. It's not common - it's the exception.
My mother never taught us to cook because we picked it up on our own. It's just applied chemistry (which explains why I made a cake with green and red icing even though it was summer. Experimentation.) We weren't sheltered from life. That's not possible in the slums.
Cooking is a basic survival skill. It's been for more than a million years. It wasn't even our invention, but a preceding species. And that's with an estimated IQ of 60, less than 99.5 percent of humans.
In other words, if a moron (IQ between 51 and 70) can do it ...
Also, there was no rage. This is what happens when you over-protect your kids. As far as I'm concerned, it means that my kids have less competition to worry about, and so do their kids. (hum "The circle of life")
"Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
And you think these things are done to a greater degree today?
If so, you're wrong. I don't know when you grew up, but property crime in the US has been steadily declining for decades.
You are welcome on my lawn.
So you just read a summary on slashdot. I bet you believed what it said without question. Am I right?
Did you follow the link to see what the original story said? Did you check the URL to make sure it was really Engadget, not a fake page designed to look like it? Did you look up the study to see if it really said what the super short, not at all detailed article claimed it said?
No? Then you can't spot fake news either. You just believe what you read, as long as it sounds reasonable, without doing the work to find out if it's true or not.
"I'm too busy to research this and form an educated opinion, but I do have time to tell everyone my uninformed opinion."
you'll fall behind. You're forgetting that employees have a shelf life, and that with declining wages you need to be moving up or you're moving down. This isn't the post WWII 1950s job market (for white males). Stuffs changed. Nobody gives a damn about your life experience. They'll look at the 10 years you spent trying to get through college and pass you by for promotions. Meanwhile you won't be able to afford to buy a house, which is how the working class build wealth in this country. You're pretty much boned.
Kids are trapped right now. Unless somebody like Bernie steps in they're going to get crushed under the load. Same as most do in China and India and most of the world. It's a nasty race to the bottom.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
Minimum wage is only about 80% too high for grilled cheese sandwich cooking.
MY OTHER COMMENTS
Minimum wage is only about 80% too high for grilled cheese sandwich cooking.
65% of federal welfare assistance went to working families. In essence our Tax dollars are being used to subsidize Corporate payroll's
Fake news this is just another means of our mainstream propaganda media agents to secure their position as the experts as to what news is. This suggestion that there needs to be some sort of filter or mechanism to identify "Fake news" is a completely contrived notion that attempts to censor free speech. If students are having a problem identifying what the real news is and what's fake news is the answer is not to filter the answer is to better educate these idiots I cannot think for themselves and determine what his news and what is not. Unfortunately the major news corporations within the United States are the experts at delivering fake news, Those caught interviewing crisis actors, those wrapped up in false claims of being under fire in a war zone yet somehow still hold a job. These are the institutions that are suggesting there needs to be some type of standard and definition of what real news is. How about this? How about we think for ourselves for once, How about we use our brains, How about we use common sense? Does their really need to be a formal tribunal that designates what "Real news" is? Have any of you ever listened to radio in the 1940s and 1950s? It wasn't uncommon for newscasters to advertise goods and services and would almost be confused for news. I would challenge anyone who turns on the television and watches mainstream news to be able to identify what is public-relations, What is an advertisement, What is a political statement and what is news. I think that you will find there is very little news in any of the broadcasts. It's time to put on the big boy pants, It is time to actually think for yourself and take responsibility. It is time to use your brain and it is time to start critically thinking about the things that are happening around us. This world exists beyond a smart phone and computer screen, we spend more time in a constructed reality then we do in the world at large. With the hell cares what is real news and one is fake news if you're armed with the ability to think for yourself and know the difference.
No, it's the other way around. It's the corporate payroll that still keeps some people off of full welfare. Grilling a cheese sandwich is not the kind of a job that can or should pay whatever the insane minimum wage law dictates (7+ dollars an hour for grilling sandwiches? I think machines will do better).
You will find a human standing over a grill making Grilled Cheese sandwiches even in Australia where the minimum wage is US $17.70 an hour. The unemployment rate there is only .8% higher then in the U.S. Conservative orthodoxy that a livable minimum wage will lead to mass layoffs is just a ploy to protect Corporate profits on the Taxpayers dime
you misspelled "american"
Purely anecdotally:
As someone who taught secondary school maths, you can take it from me A-levels have got easier. It has got so bad that 'quality' universities are now having to lay on, for want of a better word, remedial classes in certain subjects, including maths, to get their students up to a level where they can start their degree. Well, It's either this or just lower the standards of the degree - but then this is a not-particularly-surprising-outcome when a government sets an arbitrary target (I believe it was 50%) for people in higher education.
It is very difficult to make direct comparisons between the US and UK systems when it comes to education, as depth and breadth vary enormously, however when I was at school we studied calculus for AO level maths, that's roughly at age 15, a couple of years earlier than AP calculus, and a couple of years before calculus is generally taught in secondary schools today. Futhermore the treatment we gave the subject back then was considerably more thorough than is generally given today, in this country at least - I can't comment on the US system..
Having said all that my education barely touched on high level computer programming (well, if machine code wasn't your thing then your options were flavours of BASIC, so no real surprise there) and I'm sure there must be other things that children are taught today that we weren't back then...
Now, I'd like to agree with the OP, that the median child of today is less literate, less numerate, and generally less knowledgeable than the median child of yesteryear but, honestly, I find myself unable to do so, because I have no reliable frame of reference. Not only did I not know most students back when I was one (I saw only the top few percent on a daily basis) even now I can't say for sure that I've seen both the best and worst that current schools have to offer. There's a huge gap between the highest and lowest performing students, and, even discounting these extremes the whole subject is multidimensional - even ignoring the so called soft skills reducing the question to a single better or worse figure renders any answer essentially meaningless. However, I also find myself unable to agree with you. When exam rates show such a consistent year on year increase there are a number of possible explanations: Genetic evolution is making us smarter; Social evolution is making us smarter; The education system is getting better; The exams are getting easier; Some other factor I haven't thought of right now; Some of, if not all of, the previous...
It's probably overly simplistic to use Occam's Razor to arrive at an answer but I've run out of time ;-)
Or if the headline is written as a question. If the news is asking you, the answer is no, move on.
Wanna buy a shirt?
https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
I suspect you've hit the nail on the head.
A few years ago I found myself assisting in the delivery of a short external course at HBS. The standard of some of the first year MBA students that attended that course was truly impressive - actually that doesn't do them justice, it was staggeringly impressive.
Whenever I feel disillusioned about the state of education today, or disheartened by what I read, or see firsthand, I find these memories somewhat comforting.
That's the point. Teach logic to preschoolers, I say.
Good luck with that. There are kids in their 20s in college who can't budget, can't cook, and if it isn't on Facebook it doesn't exist.
Remember that these are the same people who in the most basic maths classes always said "when are we ever going to use this in real life". The truth is they never will use algebra in real life, but the smart kids use it every day (ever figured out how many litres of petrol you'd get for $20... you've used algebra).
You cant eliminate dumb, all you can do is teach and hope that most of the students learn (they do).
Also, I know someone with two PHD's who couldn't make a sandwich to save his life. Some people are simply not able to grasp certain concepts and this does not make them dumb, crocheting is a basic skill but it's one I wouldn't have the foggiest how to do.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
As I said, it was obviously made with the intent of trolling those SJW actors. And as for "it came from Trump's android phone", you are just imagining a scenario to fit your point. Sorry, but I don't care about what you imagine.
You know it's true in your heart, though.
HBI's Law: Frequency of calling others Nazis is directly correlated with the likelihood of the accuser being Communist.
Why the hell would I watch cooking shows when it's something that even a moron can learn without them (as the early hominids did).? And I didn't "miss ouit" on anything by not having my parents teach me to cook - I didn't need them. So what did I miss - "bonding?" Not when I cooked supper and they ate it. You're projecting your limitations and need to have your hand held for basic shit.
You call it condescension - I call it pointing out that even morons can do it so there's no real defense. If you needed help learning something that a hominid with an IQ of 60 was able to do that says more about you and the bunch of low-expectation-mother-fuckers you hang around with. Go get your gold star for showing up, because you are SUCH a special snowflake.
Yes, I look down on such people, because they haven't got the pride, the initiative, to try to better themselves. If they don't hold themselves in high esteem, who am I to disagree with their self-assessment?
Mistakes should be few and far between. Repeated mistakes even less. Someone causes a kitchen fire, they will NEVER be allowed near my stove, even if it's to make a grilled cheese sandwich. I already put out one fire caused by a kid in the next house not paying attention while making french fries, and sure enough, 30 years later he's a loser stoner who has not worked one year in his life. Moron is as moron does.
"Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
Real unemployment in USA is in double digits, people without work cannot afford these sandwiches, so people eat out much less than before and so restaurants are scaling down.
I don't follow Australia economy much, so won't talk about it. With the restaurants scaling down and closing there will be way fewer jobs for grilling sandwiches but there will always be a few who will still do it at whatever the minimum wage of the time is and the top 1% will still be able to afford their services.
Minimum wage will put the people getting it out of jobs and the businesses will shut down too (or it will be the owners themselves grilling that cheese).
You can't handle the truth.
Take that person with 2 phds and just give him the raw ingredients, and nothing else for the next month. He'll figure it out. Or he'll starve. But he doesn't starve. Learned helplessness is almost as bad as feigned helplessness - both are manipulative.
Same as if you absolutely had to learn crocheting, you'd learn.
"Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
But this story is clearly fake.
Have you read my blog lately?
Are you sure that's not a fake story about a fake investigation by the Anti-Socrates movement?
Yeah, b'cos the only people opposed to socialism are those who lived before 1991 - the end of the Soviet Union. Since then, everyone has lived in a post Socialist era, except from people fresh off the boat from Cuba, Venezuela and China. People don't react to Socialist/Liberal/Communist today the way they did during the times Mondale or Dukakis ran. As far as the millennials go, they have no idea what socialism even is: they think it has something to do w/ social media.
On the guns issue, Sanders is more accommodative of the Second Amendment than his bi-coastal comrades, since he comes from a state where that matters. The average person living in the Green Mountain National Forest probably doesn't have a nearby police department that's always there to respond to calls, so like in most red states, the rural person in VT would need his guns, and Sanders understands that. Another issue where Sanders is very much compatible w/ mainstream America is immigration: he's clearly stated that we can't have jobs for immigrants when there are so many citizens out of work. That totally flies in the face of party doctrine.
Besides, I described elsewhere in this page how the election would have played out had Bernie been the candidate. While Trump would have held the Romney states, the battleground states would have been a different story. For instance, WI, MI and PA, which swung for Trump by their union workers, did so due to his opposition to TPP, NAFTA and a few other populist themes - themes not supported by Hilary but definitely supported by Sanders. Things like Gay Rights would have split evenly b/w Trump and Sanders, since Trump himself is not anti-LGBT, so that wouldn't have been an issue. Minimum wage would have been an issue, and that would have worked Sanders' way.
My bottom line is that had Sanders been the candidate, the election would have been on purely ideological lines, as opposed to personality the way it was b/w Clinton and Trump. And there happen to be more left leaning Americans today than right leaning ones. Even if one allows for the fact that many of them are in CA, NY and MA, there are still enough in battleground states to make it work for a Sanders. Like had Ted Cruz been the candidate, he would have mobilized all conservatives, but Sanders would equally have mobilized most millennials, as well as more elderly people on the left, who in the absence of a Soviet Union, are less fearful of Communism than they once were.
Real unemployment in USA is in double digits, people without work cannot afford these sandwiches, so people eat out much less than before and so restaurants are scaling down.
I don't follow Australia economy much, so won't talk about it. With the restaurants scaling down and closing there will be way fewer jobs for grilling sandwiches but there will always be a few who will still do it at whatever the minimum wage of the time is and the top 1% will still be able to afford their services.
Minimum wage will put the people getting it out of jobs and the businesses will shut down too (or it will be the owners themselves grilling that cheese).
I am rather confused by your post. Officially the Australian unemployment rate is .8% higher then in the U.S . If you are indeed correct and the unemployment figure is double digits in the U.S, that means that Australia has half the unemployment rate of the U.S while having a minimum wage that is more then 2 times higher. The facts seem to show that a higher minimum wage leads to less unemployment rather then the other way around. This does make sense %70 of the GDP comes from the Consumer Economy. How is the Consumer Economy supposed to grow if %30 of the labor force is low-wage Service jobs that leaves families in need of Welfare assistance just to scrape by
This.
Parents don't want evolution, climate change, slavery, or science in their schools.
They don't want diverse ideas by non-Christian, non-White, non-heterosexual, non-European American cultures to infect their children.
But they do want their children to grow up and be big and get jobs.
Ignorance begets ignorance.
It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
The facts seem to show that a higher minimum wage leads to less unemployment rather then the other way around
- no, there is no causality where you found it. Lower minimum wage means the price of labour is lower, we consume more of that, which is cheaper. There are too many other factors at play, major ones are that the unemployment didn't start with the service industry, it started with the most productive industries that moved out of the USA due to the cost of doing business.
USA is full of government workers, service sector workers, financial workers, health care workers and such, it has very few manufacturing jobs and it's losing more of them by the hour. Eventually this spreads to other jobs and the minimum wage does not help with the already non-functioning economy, which was destroyed by government induced inflation (money printing, borrowing at artificially low interest rates).
Again, the restaurants are losing business because people can no longer afford to eat out, there will be fewer and fewer even minimum wage jobs around, so raising the minimum wage at this point in the USA will simply speed up the coming economic collapse.
You can't handle the truth.
I'm not sure.
It's some guy's blog.
Who is he to question Bartleby?
All sarcasm aside, I think this is an example where a motivated individual can spend more resources researching a niche topic than a larger organization will choose to allocate. One would expect a quotation dictionary to be more accurate, but they have thousands of quotes to deal with while this Yale Doctoral graduate with his avocation has the luxury of picking and choosing which quotes to research and to what lengths he will go until he is satisfied.
The facts seem to show that a higher minimum wage leads to less unemployment rather then the other way around
- no, there is no causality where you found it. Lower minimum wage means the price of labour is lower, we consume more of that, which is cheaper. There are too many other factors at play, major ones are that the unemployment didn't start with the service industry, it started with the most productive industries that moved out of the USA due to the cost of doing business.
USA is full of government workers, service sector workers, financial workers, health care workers and such, it has very few manufacturing jobs and it's losing more of them by the hour. Eventually this spreads to other jobs and the minimum wage does not help with the already non-functioning economy, which was destroyed by government induced inflation (money printing, borrowing at artificially low interest rates).
Again, the restaurants are losing business because people can no longer afford to eat out, there will be fewer and fewer even minimum wage jobs around, so raising the minimum wage at this point in the USA will simply speed up the coming economic collapse.
Don't pick one sentence out of an entire paragraph to respond to! The gist of my post is very clear. You have an example in Australia with a much higher minimum wage and a low unemployment rate. The economy is NOT a zero sum game it is foolish to oversimplify it. I don't know what the Microeconomics look like in Australia so I can't talk to you about the Restaurant business there but in Macroeconomic terms Australia has a much higher minimum wage and its near what economists call "full employment." According to your theory the much higher minimum wage should mean a very high unemployment rate and that's simply not the case.
What good man were they rude to, and what's Mike Pence doing in that statement?
As far as I can tell, John Goodman must have been insulted at the show, and Trump's just telling Pence, like Hey, this happened, Mike Pence!
Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
That's the point. Teach logic to preschoolers, I say.
Good luck with that. There are kids in their 20s in college who can't budget, can't cook, and if it isn't on Facebook it doesn't exist. There are adults high school (drop-outs) who have never applied for even a part-time job and as a result are too afraid of rejection to give it a try (real special snowflakes) They drop out of government-paid trade schools that give them an extra stipend, and they can't budget either, which is why they get iPhones and home internet on a $150 a month plan as soon as their check comes, go to concerts at $200 a pop, eat out with their friends, and then wonder why they have no money for food or rent.
You don't need to teach them critical thinking - you need to teach them basic thinking. Cause and effect, such as "you spend money on sh*t you want, you won't have money for sh*t you need.".
Last week I had the displeasure to watch one second-year college student who works as a cook in a burger franchise screw up making grilled cheese.
Q: How the hell do you screw up making a grilled cheese sandwich?
They don't have basic life skills and you expect to teach them logic? Sheldon says (and Mr Spock agrees) that is illogical. And we have a new generation of teachers who don't know much either, because they were also special snowflakes. They teach from the book because, like the burger cook, they can't do it if it isn't laid out step by step.
Haven't seen this repeated in a few years, but it remains true: You can't make things foolproof, fools are too clever for that.
Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
In the literal sense, they are retarded compared to children of similar age 40 years ago. Their grammar and word usage is worse, their punctuation is worse. Their grasp of mathematics is worse. Their knowledge of history is worse. Their cognizance of current events is worse.
No wonder they are susceptible to propaganda for the stupid. They are in fact the ignorant and stupid, relative to their parents and grandparents.
40 years ago, and for a generation previous, the nation valued learning, and education, and knowledge, and wisdom. we were in the space race with the satanic commies, and an arms race, and so on. we had to develop new technological wizardry so we could fight in Vietnam against the locals. Art and culture and literature and music were things to make you smarter. even rock music made you sit around and discuss, just who was the walrus, and what was a goo goo goo joob anyway? seriously discuss it, long into the night. news featured things like 60 minutes that did in depth reporting on stuff that didn't fit between mr. wilson's 30 year old cat and farmer brown's 200 lb pumpkin on the news. but you can't make tons of money on that stuff!!! mcdonald's makes more money than cordon bleu restaurants. you can't go wrong pitching lowest common denominator to the masses. then you shut down the budgets for education. lord knows we don't want our schools to actually be pleasant places to be in, let alone temples to higher learning. kids just learn all sorts of things there that contradict their parents.
Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
Careful! You (and bartleby.com and GP) might be spreading a misattributed quote.
http://quoteinvestigator.com/2...
see also: * You can't believe everything you read on the internet. - Abraham Lincoln * Never, never be afraid to do what’s right, especially if the well-being of a person or animal is at stake. - Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
This must be a lie, i've searched twitter for socrates' account and can't find anything like this.
Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
That's the point. Teach logic to preschoolers, I say.
Good luck with that. There are kids in their 20s in college who can't budget, can't cook, and if it isn't on Facebook it doesn't exist.
Remember that these are the same people who in the most basic maths classes always said "when are we ever going to use this in real life". The truth is they never will use algebra in real life, but the smart kids use it every day (ever figured out how many litres of petrol you'd get for $20... you've used algebra). You cant eliminate dumb, all you can do is teach and hope that most of the students learn (they do). Also, I know someone with two PHD's who couldn't make a sandwich to save his life. Some people are simply not able to grasp certain concepts and this does not make them dumb, crocheting is a basic skill but it's one I wouldn't have the foggiest how to do.
Like watching a table full of college educated adults trying to work out a 15% tip, let alone split a check. might as well ask the dog and the cat to split the cost of the pet food.
Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
Ignorance and confidence, that's always a winning combination.
Sadly, it seems to be one lately.
ignodence? or confignorance? we absolutely need a new word for that particular combo.
Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
I don't know what the true state of Australian economy is, so I cannot argue on that. I can however tell you that Singapore has some of the lowest unemployment rates on the planet and it has no minimum wage at all. My point is that the minimum wage in itself does not dictate the entire picture but it does make the problem worse for the economies that are already mostly hiring in the service sectors.
I have a software business, I have some people working for me in a Western country and they are paid above the legal minimum wage.
However I have a number of people working for me in the Ukraine and there I am paying a much lower wage than I would have to pay in a Western country (though by the local standards it's many times the average). I could not hire as many people in a Western country as I have employed in the Ukraine because the amount of money I can spend on employees is limited to my revenues.
If suddenly I had to pay an American minimum wage to all of my employees, I would have to fire a large number of them and that would be that, it's really not that complicated to understand.
Now, we are not talking about skilled professionals in this thread, we are talking about grilling cheese and to do that type of work there are literally millions of people that could fill in the position. Given the fact that multiple people apply for any given position (for example Walmart gets hundreds of applications per job offer) it stands to reason that the companies are overpaying their hires when they are forced to pay them the minimum wage but also it means the companies are hiring fewer workers because they spend more per worker.
Now again, if you look at the actual economic situation in the States you will observe falling productivity among the workers and thus falling purchasing power, which translates into scaling down of the businesses. The minimum wage prevents many from being hired who could be hired.
I am actually not saying that the minimum wage all by itself leads to an economic collapse, I am saying that in the conditions where the economy is collapsing minimum wage is adding to the suffering of the common people. Companies will deal, will have fewer workers, will outsource, will automate and many will shut down. The more companies shut down the fewer opportunities for work there will be, given these circumstances what gives the politicians the idea that the fewer remaining businesses have more money to spend on low skilled employees?
You can't handle the truth.
"Media does not spread free opinion; It generates opinion" --Oswald, 1918 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decline_of_the_West
Casteism
Citation: Open your damn eyes. It's self evident.
Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
It's been self-evident to every generation ever that the younger generation was lazy, stupid and useless. And they've all been wrong. Why are you different?
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
Fucking moron. You keep making up shit expecting everyone to swallow it. No wonder you hide behind Anonymous Coward.
Is it because you were never taught to stand on your own two feet because mommy or daddy kept "showing" you how to do things but never really letting you try it on your own?
I'm obviously superior to you because I don't hide.
"Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
No, my reasoning is correct. Given the number of applicants per position, WM could easily fill all those positions at much lower wages.
The fact that those jobs are low paying jobs does not mean that the people hire to do them are underpaid, they are overpaid for the jobs that they are hired for, otherwise there wouldn't be a line up of applicants.
You can't handle the truth.
Looks like I thought "Bartlett's" when I read "Bartleby" but the same point stands. The link is to a book of quotations which one would assume to have been researched.