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Uber Admits To Self-driving Car 'Problem' in Bike Lanes As Safety Concerns Mount (theguardian.com)
Uber has admitted that there is a "problem" with the way autonomous vehicles cross bike lanes, raising serious questions about the safety of cyclists days after the company announced it would openly defy California regulators over self-driving vehicles. From a report on The Guardian: An Uber spokeswoman said on Monday that engineers were working to fix a flaw in the programming that advocates feared could have deadly consequences for cyclists. Uber began piloting its self-driving vehicles in its home town of San Francisco last week, despite state officials' declaration that the ride-share company needed special permits to test its technology. On day one, numerous autonomous vehicles -- which have a driver in the front seat who can take control -- were caught running red lights and committing a range of traffic violations. Despite threats of legal action from the department of motor vehicles (DMV) and California's attorney general, Kamala Harris, Uber refused to back down on Friday, claiming its rejection of government authority was "an important issue of principle."
Increasing shareholder value, the motherhood of corporate boards everywhere.
Is the only punishment of the driver a fine? I would think you don't get to drive a car for a year or two if you are caught "driving" one of these.
So Uber's driver-less cars drive like a soccer mom trying to get her spawn to school?
We're "sorry" that our "independently" owned and operated "self-driving" car went into the "bike" lane and "killed" your wife last night. Here is our "generous" offer: $250K, sign this "no fault" agreement, and "GTFO."
Uber, because we just weren't happy that everyone thought we didn't care about our "employees"... so we had to prove we don't care about anybodys' safety!!!
burn in hell, Uber... burn in Hell
It only took a self driving car to point out the bike lanes that should have been designed differently to be safer for cyclists to begin with.
I thought these sensors were all-seeing all-knowing? Why can't they simply detect a cyclist and avoid it as they would avoid a car? How long before these run over someone's pet?
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
San Francisco, if it's government had any balls, would start booting all Uber self-driving cabs based on the risk to society.
Then, start fining the Uber cab company $10K per day it's in violation.
Uber's claim it's on principle is crap. They have admitted their cabs are a danger to society but they continue to run them anyway. When, not if, their cab plows into someone or causes an accident I hope the people use Ubers own words against them when they take them to court.
It's the principle of the thing.
We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
A company who has refused to follow state and city laws for years is ignoring more laws.
"A plan fiendishly clever in its intricacies"- Homer Simpson
So, just like a Human Uber Driver and their Prius.
I made this: http://www.bpftpserver.com
No, they were computers which is the point of the story... Sheesh... We went from not reading the article to not reading the summery to not reading the headline... ;)
Considering my last parking ticket in SF was $350 (for street cleaning. I SHIT YOU NOT!), just charge Uber for every violation. They will be bankrupt in no time.
The only thing worse than a Democrat is a Republican.
Cyclists are a scourge that really need to be eradicated.
I'd say the same thing about Uber.
"Traffic laws are for humans" - Uber
Its getting to be like Death Race 2000 out there, watch out humans.
Uber isn't a ride share service! It is a unlicensed taxi service! It doesn't have the same rules and regulations that taxi companies have to abide by. That is why taxi service is so much better, cleaner and safer in the US. Right?
Back in the 80's, KITT didn't have this problem....
All Uber has to do is to pay the state for autonomous car permits. Then everything will be fine.
Have gnu, will travel.
Something they didn't address in the article: did the Uber car determine there was nobody in the bike lane? My guess is that it had.
I ride in bike lanes often and most human drivers do not check for bikes in the bike lane: I have to believe self driving cars will be better at this.
Thanks for reminding us of what an obnoxious scourge cyclists are.
Your Uber is arriving soon.
You know you can buy HD cameras now for about $20 each? That record several hours worth of video?
My bicycle has one front and rear, just for jackasses like you.
While this doesn't instill a lot of confidence in uber's system, i wonder if this is really the standard to hold self driving cars to. Our traffic rules are built with the faults of human drivers in mind. Humans have more blind area than vision so we make rules like, Don't cross into this lane ever, or Don't go when the light is this color. Do these rules ultimately need to apply to autonomous cars? A part of me has more faith that a robot with 360 degree vision and lidar can make a better judgement call [than a human] on when a red light can be ran or a bike lane can be traversed.
They certainly need to be predictable as long as there are human drivers alongside them, but is knowing where all the bike lanes are required if we can show that the car would detect and avoid cyclists and people100% of the time anyway?
Make useful bike infrastructure and I'd gladly get out of the way of all the idiot cagers. But until we have that I can't
And no, sidewalks don't count, they're often illegal to ride on and no where near as ubiquitous as roads. Less than half my commute is covered by them
The cameras will help you a lot once you're on the way to the morgue...
There's a driver behind the wheel who is supposed to override the computer whenever the computer makes a mistake. If they don't, perhaps they need to lose their driver's license.
An interesting legal issue; what will happen when (not if) one of their vehicles is involved in a hit & run collision, and for the traffic violations? If the decision makers at Uber are willing to take on the felony charges and traffic violations and do time or pay the fines out of their own personal pockets when this happens then we should be all for them testing without the proper permits and no drivers in the vehicles.
The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
Timely!
Populus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur...
"Force shits upon Reason's back." - Poor Richard's Almanac
You have ** One point ** left on your driver's license.
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
Not all cyclists are assholes. Only some are and they get noticed more than the ones who actually follow the rules.
It's like me saying all AC's are pussy douchebags who hide behind anonymity. It's not true, but there's more asshole AC's than not.
It is a way for Uber to increase its customer base. If cyclists are unable to ride due to injury, then some percentage of them will start using Uber. It increases revenue, leading to higher profits, executive bonuses, and greater shareholder value. Any executive would ask: what's not to like?
I'll see your senator, and I'll raise you two judges.
> claiming its rejection of government authority was "an important issue of principle."
Which means next time you see a self-driving Uber, feel free to scratch the fuck out of it any way you see fit, break the headlights, or even steal it if you like. Since Uber doesn't recognize the government authority on principal, they must have given up police protection as well.
The California law REQUIRES the automobile to USE the bike lane to make the right hand turn.
Michigan law FORBIDS the automobile from using the bike lane (except to cross it.)
I can believe other states are even more complicated..
So now you're saying that the safety drivers are expected to pay attention?
What job could be worse than being an Uber driver? Being an Uber Safety Driver.
I'll see your senator, and I'll raise you two judges.
They they have Deliveroo where you are? They're all complete cunts, the lot of 'em.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
As long as the Owner/CEO gets treated as the driver in all cases. If an auto Uber car runs over a person, throw Kalanick in jail for a few years, and revoke the company's license to operate autonomous vehicles for a few decades.
Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
...a Bike problem to me.
So I looked at the video in the article
https://www.theguardian.com/te...
1) It's a one-way street, and the crosswalk has SIX red lights. one over each lane, two at the sidewalk before and after the crosswalk. How did the sensors miss all those lights? Was it looking at tree and decided "Green? Keep going ..."
2) There is a pedestrian stepping into the crosswalk and the Uber drove past him. In Ga, all traffic must stop for a pedestrian in a crosswalk, and I'm quite that sure Ca's law is even more strict.
3) The uber passes a car already stopped for the red light at the crosswalk. I don't know California law, but in Georgia it is also illegal to pass a car stopped for a pedestrian at a crosswalk. It's also common sense - you can't see if the car was stopped for a child/short person/wheelchair attempting to cross, so you should stop first and look second in that situation.
4) the light turned yellow at the 2 second mark in the video, and the Uber went though at 11 seconds, so it's not even close.
5) common sense that people have: If I'm coming to an intersection and other cars are stopping, I slow and look around; I know something is happening.
maybe the light changed while I was dozing, or maybe a passenger is going to open the door in front of me.
It appears that the Uber lacks this sort of situational awareness, but I don't know if the human was given an alert and ignored it in this case.
Need an hard ass judge to force uber to give out code, logs, etc in a trial when an auto dive car kills someone. And a few days in lock up for contempt of court will fix the people with the NDA's from saying I can't tell you.
independently but is the software independent? or does that become an recall issue and the manufacturers must fix safety issues for free.
That's not for safety, silly, that's because every municipality has some Philips people in their Council directing the town to install as many traffic lights as physically possible, and then some more.
"Trump!!", the new Godwin.
Not all cyclists are assholes. Only some are and they get noticed more than the ones who actually follow the rules.
It's like me saying all AC's are pussy douchebags who hide behind anonymity. It's not true, but there's more asshole AC's than not.
Yea, well the cyclists that do obey get a bad reputation from the other 99%. Even pedestrians obey traffic laws better than cyclists....
Running red lights and ignoring stop signs, and going the wrong way down the street, and generally dangerously obnoxious behavior is the norm for them.
As a cyclist if a self-driving car cuts me off in a bike lane or otherwise tries to kill me I'll put my bike lock through one of its windows. That way the car owner will learn of the incident.
"Grab them by the pussy" -- President of the United States of America
Maybe they were white computers, if they were black computers they'd be shot.
> You can't take insurance against being caught committing a crime. If what Uber is doing is illegal and there is an *accident*, insurance won't cover it
[Emphasis added]
Running a red light is illegal. Insurance will cover an accident caused by running a red light. The key word is *accident*. In most jurisdictions, insurance doesn't cover liability for *intentional* criminal acts; it does cover liability for illegal / unlawful acts where the damage is not intentional (either the unlawful act doesn't require intent, or the damage was the unexpected result of an intentional unlawful act).
Unlawful acts frequently have a *risk* of causing damage. Jurisdictions, and courts, are divided on where to draw the line - if you look and it appears to be clear before you purposely cut through the bike line, but accidentally hit someone, that's borderline. You didn't hit someone on purpose, but you did cut through the bike lane on purpose.
Not all cyclists are assholes
Very true. It's just that 99% of cyclists give the other 1% a bad name. It's rare to see a cyclist in Seattle that isn't breaking the rules of the road as you watch - it must take real effort to break traffic laws so continuously.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
Uber is all about bypassing and ignoring regulations and laws in the name of profit. I hope San Francisco can find a way to ensure they follow the rules, and prosecute them fully when they don't.
Human Uber drivers tend to run red lights and stop signs, too. So maybe their autonomous vehicles are programmed similarly. Uber humans routinely ignore bike lanes and frequently stop in them. Traffic in San Francisco would be less painful if we didn't always have several thousand ride-hailing drivers cruising the streets while waiting for a fare, adding to the already grim traffic situation here.
As a sometime-cyclist myself, I have some sympathy for cyclists who think about what they're doing on the roads. There are some legitimate reasons why a cyclist might need to break traffic laws to ensure their own safety. But it's when you see a cyclist rear-end a vehicle that has been stationary at a stoplight for at least two minutes that you have to go, "Come. The. Fuck. On."
Breakfast served all day!
Not really, it's just been certain countries in Europe.
The Netherlands has had dedicated bycicle roads going back as far as World War I. Meanwhile, they don't even exist in Northern Ireland.
Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
Running red lights and numerous other traffic violations, that is the standard bicyclist operating procedure around here. It is a miracle 50 a day don't die in my city alone.
Do these early adopting states have really uniform street/lane markings for things like bike paths?
I have been trying to imagine a car trying to drive on some of the roads in Louisiana. It is hard to make out where the lanes are sometimes.
I only look human.
My mother is a halfling and my dad is an ogre, so that makes me an Ogreling
If Uber manufactures the cars in another country and smuggles them into the US illegally would they be granted sanctuary?
I only look human.
My mother is a halfling and my dad is an ogre, so that makes me an Ogreling
We are going to sue!
The passenger who hired the car
UBER
The State
The City
The coders at Uber
The car manufacturer
Apple, Google, Microsoft for having the app in there store.
The auto insurance
UBER's payment possessors
and so on.
"We've corrected the software... it now does not assume that everyone using the roads will obey the relevant traffic laws, if it turns out that at the bottom of the hill is a stop sign, and then there is another hill headed upward, since the stop sign, if obeyed, would cause a loss of momentum and necessitate pedaling".
Better for cyclists to just disobey the traffic laws, and keep that momentum up the hill!!!
And yes, I am looking at you, intersection of Claremont an Ulloa in West Portal in San Francisco.
What I find most aggravating are the red light runners. You don't have to cycle for long to realize that cars don't look for cycles when turning left, so inviting that collision is the height of folly.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
A private citizen doing this stuff would be in jail for this by now. Impound the experimental cars before someone dies. Once that's done Uber may be willing to negotiate and they may do some proper testing instead of letting dangerous unfinished shit on the roads.
Another reason why proponents of self-driving vehicles are kidding themselves.
Driving safely, courteously and responsibly involves far too many variables for a frickin AI to cope with, especially considering that lives are at stake. Keep piling on the rules, exceptions and priority overrides and you'll soon get spaghetti code that is impossible to audit deterministically and behaviour becomes unpredictable.
Granted there are certainly many humans who drive and shouldn't, but replacing them with robots is not the answer.
"Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
Some sort of iR signal, paint, QR code or something in the pavement, sign or something that would let the cars know where these are? Updated GPS or something else?
They have what they need in the paint already: pearl. This makes the paint reflective, and you can use LIDAR to find it. A car which cannot operate using the same cues as a human driver is useless.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
When I am in my car, cyclists playing fast with the rules are an annoyance that I counter by regulating my emotions and driving as carefully as I can.
When I am on foot and crossing the street, cyclists sailing through red lights against the pedestrian walk light are a threat.
What am I supposed to do to avoid a life-altering brain injury from getting knocked down -- wear a bike helmet to walk across the street?
It really is time to start throwing Uber execs in Jail. They want to play the civil disobedience card then their execs need to wear the consequences.
If you look are actual numbers cyclists break traffic laws with the same frequency as everyone else, and usually in a much safer way.
Some years ago there was a study of 5 years of accidents in Stockholm; no cyclists were injured when running a red light. Left turns aren't that dangerous either. What does main and kill are those right turns which Uber got in trouble for.
Confirmation bias is a thing..
Both Uber and Tesla have plowed headlong into creating autonomous driving technology, without engaging in rigorous formal system safety proof and testing methodologies -- and this is reckless and irresponsible. Waymo has driven over a billion miles of road in a simulator as a result of regression testing every major software update -- other companies are not apparently doing this. Waymo technology has something like eight nested failure modes of degraded performance if sensors or other hardware starts failing, and they use formal methods to provide soft proofs that these failure modes work in reliable ways. The other companies (all 50+ of them now) are simply saying, "let's just apply deep learning, it will give us super-human performance with very little effort." No.
Not useless, just less useful. If even one city built smart roads that helps guide self-driving cars, it will make sense for that city's residents to buy self-driving cars. Most of the time they'll be driving in the city where the car drives itself, and when they leave it, they can still drive manually.
Given that self-driving cars are the future, smart roads do make sense. If you compare the total cost of building hundreds of millions of self-driving cars with the cost of making all roads smart, then I would expect the smart roads will win on cost. The signal transmitters can cost on the order of a Raspberry Pi, and you really only need a few of them at intersections, interchanges and construction zones, since lane-keeping is an already-solved problem.
Cyclists are a scourge that really need to be eradicated.
I'd say the same thing about Uber.
Yes. I'm not sure who to support on this one.
Can we let Uber have the autonomous cars... then jail the execs for mowing down all the cyclists. Sounds like a win-win.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
Make useful bike infrastructure and I'd gladly get out of the way of all the idiot cagers. But until we have that I can't
The problem is, you organ donors and mobile speed humps refuse to... even when many millions of dollars are spent on cycle paths... The best excuses I've heard are that they might hit a 30 CM diameter light pole that is off the path (but somehow can avoid 2 metre wide moving cars) and that there may be leaves and detritus on the path which makes it too slippery to ride on (as compared to roads which have the same detritus mixed with motor oil and other lubricants).
Still yet to hear a good reason why road going cyclists shouldn't be licensed and registered. A bicycle is a vehicle like any other on the road but they dont seem to obey red lights, lane markings, minimum speed limits, no left/right turn signs or other turning vehicles. I wonder if that's related to cyclists being so hostile to licensing and registration like other road users.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
You can tell he's a real internet tough guy because his words are 200% tougher than other, fake, internet tough guys.
See how tough they are. See how they punch through your browser like it was made of tissue. Recoil in fear from the words armoured in muscular boldness and caps. These are the words of a man who people take notice of, who gets his way. Respect him or suffer another merciless pummelling of tough guy words.
that suffer from that problem; thwse days it seems every driver does