Microsoft Says It Is Winning Its New War Against Macs (cultofmac.com)

Windows PCs are starting to chip away at Apple's strong grip of the high-end computer market, Microsoft CFO Amy Hood said on an earnings call Thursday. From a report: Microsofts licensing business, which sells Windows to third-party PC makers, was up 5 percent last quarter, confirmed CFO Amy Hood during an earnings call on Thursday. The "non-pro" (consumer) market grew 5 percent, beating the overall decline of the PC industry. "Our partner ecosystem continued to see growth and share gains in the Windows premium device category," Hood continued. Those gains would have eaten into Apple's share of that market, which has been dominated by Macs until recently. There are other things that could have contributed to this, of course. Many long-time Mac users have been somewhat disappointed with Apple's most recent releases, which come with big changes that not everyone is willing to embrace.

Comments

Nope

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple is self destructing. Minor difference, but it makes it sound like Microsoft is all of a sudden making better products. That would be a first, and probably not far off.

Had a mac since '84 and I think my current macbook is the last I'll buy.

Re:Nope

[kamapuaa]

So, are you going to go Windows or Linux?

Because while having to use a dongle to access your SD card is a slight nuisance, I guess, the alternatives are for shit.

Re:Nope

[Anonymous Coward]

Pretty much. Losing a battle against a competitor that decided to flop on their back and die isn't much of a feat.

Re:Nope

[alvinrod]

While it's true that Apple hasn't done much in the way of releasing new products to actually compete, and the one product line they did refresh was with a controversial touch bar in place of function keys, Microsoft has gotten better at making products, particularly their Surface line. The newest one that looks much like an iMac but has a huge touch screen seems like it would be great for people who do a lot of drawing. I'll admit that I have no use for such things, but they've started making some interesting hardware, or at least releasing it. Back in the Ballmer days that talked about a lot of interesting stuff, but most of it never saw the light of day. Even outside of Surface, they're making stuff like Hololens.

Their software on the other hand doesn't seem better, at least from the consumer side. I guess Azure is fairly popular and they've probably got other stuff I'm not overly familiar with that gets used by businesses. However, if Microsoft hadn't started making better products, people would have jumped ship from Apple for something else like HP, Dell, Lenovo, etc. instead of buying Microsoft hardware.

Re:Nope

[Anonymous Coward]

Have lots of windows boxes already for work stuff. I'm actually ready to go full linux at this point.

Re:Nope

[apoc.famine]

From my point of view or from Microsoft's?
 
From their point of view, I'm going to Windows, because I'll probably go with a Dell XPS 13. From my point of view, it will be Linux. The "problem" is that Microsoft still gets my money, and they still add it to their stats, despite me not wanting their product and not wanting to pay for it.
 
I have been a MBP user for a decade. My MBPs have been my main workhorses, and I loved them. I've been waiting 2-3 years for a refresh worth replacing my 2012 MBP with, and it's clear that it's not going to happen.
 
Apple has now merged the MBP and the Air, which I don't understand. I don't want an Air. I want a fucking MBP. 3/4" thick, a battery that goes a day, all my ports, and hardware that's not 5 years behind. 256gb solid state drive, 8gb of ram, and an i5 is the base configuration? Really? For $1500? Really? $1800 on the XPS 13 gives you double everything and an i7 in an aluminum body and all the ports.
 
I used to love OS X, but even that's starting to wear on me. For example, I'm required to sign into iCloud with the latest OS X update. I have not figured out how to turn this off. I have disabled everything syncing to iCloud, but every hour or so I get a popup telling me to log in. No way to turn it off. Why? See the tiny little hard drives that Apple now ships with, and the inability to upgrade them or add another. (I've got a 1Tb drive in my 2012 MBP for comparison.)
 
Two or three years ago, the alternatives were definitely shit. Now, I don't think so. The alternatives are better, and the current line of MBPs (and OS X) are so fucking terrible that I'm inclined to say that the pendulum has shifted to the alternatives.

Re:Nope

[HaZardman27]

If you're getting an XPS 13 and don't want Windows, take a look at their Developer Edition line; http://www.dell.com/us/busines... Ships with Ubuntu, but you should be able to put any flavor of Linux you'd like on it.

Re:Nope

[Anonymous Coward]

If you don't need to run Adobe software, or some other specialized thing, and you have the ability to figure things out for yourself, seriously, it's the way to go.

Re:Nope

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft is losing to itself! There are more people using Windows 7 by a huge margin than are using windows 10. Some Mac users are finally realizing that paying 4x the price for inferior hardware is not a smart thing to do, especially as (Cr)apple is taking away features that people really want, and making it harder (if not impossible) to upgrade new Macs.

Re:Nope

[apoc.famine]

Thank you! I didn't see that option. I may be pulling the trigger on a new laptop much earlier than I had thought I would be....

Re:Nope

[unixisc]

Is that on an existing box you already have, or something you plan to buy? Unless you buy from one of the Linux shops - System 76 or some such, you'd pretty much get Windows on your system preloaded. Unless you plan to buy all the parts and assemble them - but that's been a more expensive proposition for at least 16 years

Re:Nope

[unixisc]

The problem w/ buying 'business editions' from Dell (dunno about others) is that when you select 'business' as the reason for buying, they ask you all sorts of intrusive questions, like the name of your business, and so on. If you are an employee working for someone and don't have your business, your choice is either to lie, and invite spam going forward, or enter your employer's name - not sure about the repercussions there, or just not do it.

Better alternative would be to check out companies that make these for Linux, like System 76, where you will be paying Microsoft squat. Another, if you have the time, patience, skill and inclination, would be to just buy all the components - motherboard, CPU, RAM, SSD, case, et al and assemble them yourself. I did this in the 90s, but since the 2000s, it's become more economical just to buy them, if you are not hung up over the OS.

Re:Nope

[Anonymous Coward]

"I used to love OS X, but even that's starting to wear on me."

I was asked to deal with a "very old" iMac still running Snow Leopard. Seeing the UI again reminded me how far the OS X UI has regressed. Snow Leopard looks and acts far better than the current 10.11 or 10.12. It's the Apple version of Windows 8's "UI nobody wanted".

I was also reminded how the Utilities like Disk Utility didn't suck then...

Re:Nope

[Anonymous Coward]

Some 3 years ago I bought a xps 15 laptop, It came with windows 7 (or 8, not sure) pre installed but I did a fresh install of whatever linux dist I used back then directly, contacted dell and asked to get a refund for the windows license as I could not agree to it and within 1 month it was repaid. I did this a few years prior to that a well (on another xps 15) and then I think they sent me a envelope to return the license sticker in before the refund happened but it worked then as well.
Not sure how they handle these things today.

Re:Nope

[fred6666]

If you don't need to run Adobe software, or some other specialized thing, and you have the ability to figure things out for yourself, seriously, it's the way to go.

Probably less than 1% of the population need to run Adobe software. You can read PDF and even run flash just fine on Linux.

Re:Nope

[fred6666]

What's wrong with lying to a corporation like Dell? Other than the nuisance to lose 10 seconds entering the information, I don't see any problem.

Re:Nope

[apoc.famine]

I've definitely had my eye on System 76. The problem is that, while a couple hundred dollars less, the equivalent hardware of what I see in something like the XPS 13 comes in a big, clunky, plastic body machine. The XPS line is starting to look and feel like the older MBPs do - a little thinner, a little sleeker, overall just a little more polished than the System 76 laptops. The XPS 13 is 0.6" tall at the highest, compared to 0.9" for a Lemur. Lemur clocks in at 3.6 lbs vs the 2.7 of the XPS. It's really a big difference. While the System 76 laptops are far more configurable and likely far more user-modification-friendly, part of the draw of the MBP line was always the sleek looking and feeling hardware. If that wasn't a draw, I'd have been using Thinkpads running linux for the last decade.
 
Also, a System 76 laptop that starts to rival my old MBP in terms of functionality and ports has a minimum size of 15". I like the 13" form-factor. It's armchair sized for me, big enough to play some games on and get some work done, and small enough to not take up too much space in the living room.

Re:Nope

[ctilsie242]

I would agree. Microsoft is improving, and Apple isn't bothering to keep in the race. One of the attractions that Apple offered was that they could handle almost every aspect of bread-and-butter computing, from the network router/firewall to the backup device to the monitor to the computer. Now, they seem only interested in iOS, and Macs have suffered because of this.

I think Apple should spin off Macs and anything that isn't their core focus, similar to what they did with Claris/FileMaker. That way, they can focus on iOS, while a different company with a dedicated set of first-string engineers can focus on macOS and improving/refreshing the hardware. Maybe even some focus on making Macs enterprise friendly again, because one company purchase of 10,000 Macs is a lot easier than 10,000 sales of a single Mac to different people.

Re:Nope

[iotaborg]

Apple, the company that has been slowly dying since 1997. With their current cash reserves alone, they can sustain their operations for decades.

Re:Nope

[Anonymous Coward]

Dell is shait. Good luck with them. I was thinking to get a Dell laptop with Linux and ended up buying a macbook pro because Dell's customer support behavior is completely unacceptable. I thought to myself "if they are this bad towards prospective customers, imagine how it will be after I buy it if I need to get service."

Re: Nope

[Anonymous Coward]

However, you can't build iOS apps.

Apple: you need to do something about this: port your iOS build environment to linux before you kill the mac.

Re:Nope

[squiggleslash]

Both. The Surface line has encroached on Apple's space, high end, design oriented, devices with decent amounts of power (Microsoft has previously run shy of entering that space) while, yeah, Apple's imploded.

Re:Nope

[Anonymous Coward]

Remember the "I'm a Mac" commercials? In the era of Windows Vista these really touched a nerve. Plus, the commercials themselves were well done (funny, appealing characters, making their point in a low-key way).

The thing is, the "I'm a Mac" commercials can't run today. Windows 7 was good, Windows 10 is good, Surface Pro is good, Bash on Windows is good, Azure is good. Hell, even SQL Server has light a fire under it's butt and is getting much better, much faster.

Yes Vista was a clunker and Windows 8.x had lots of problems, but those aren't current releases anymore.

Re:Nope

[Anonymous Coward]

I have both a MacBook Pro 2016 and a Dell XPS 15 2016. Both Skylake chips. Both with 16 GB ram, and both have SSDs.

The Dell is for shit with Windows 10. The MBP is buttery smooth. You are going to hate going from macOS to Win10.

It's painful to use the Dell for work, but unfortunately required to run certain software.

Good luck.

Re:Nope

[Jahoda]

Hey, just so you know I think you're making a good choice on the XPS 13, but if you're going there, you'll have only a USB-C and a USB 3.1 integrated. You're going to need the $75 dongle for ethernet/hdmi/vga. (The XPS 15 has the ports integrated.)

Re:Nope

[indigocat]

I work at my country's Apple Authorized Service Provider, and yes, product quality has become worrisome lately.

Re:Nope

[Anonymous Coward]

Better alternative would be to check out companies that make these for Linux, like System 76, where you will be paying Microsoft squat.

Yes, it's really best to buy from System 76 - where not only will your purchase be free of any influence by Microsoft, it'll lack any discernible sense of good design or taste, too! Seriously, those are the fugliest laptops I've seen since my parents bought an 8-pound 17" HP laptop years ago, that was - almost literally - a complete abortion.

If I'm going to buy something I intend to use day in and day out for years, I'm going to buy something that at least looks SORT OF nice, and by 'SORT OF nice', I mean that it doesn't make me want to gouge my fucking eyes out with a USB dongle. System 76 doesn't meet that criteria.

Re:Nope

[Anonymous Coward]

I can confirm that's the last macbook you'll buy. unfortunately, that's because you will be killed in an auto asphyxiation incident in late April. And while your mother will find you two weeks later, the good news is, your macbook shut off after the battery drained so at least she'll be spared seeing the video you were watching at the time.

Re:Nope

[ilsaloving]

I don't know if you're aware, but for you and anyone else looking at this thread, I wanted to point out that Wine just hit 2.0.

Their biggest feature is that they claim to fully support Office 2013. I haven't seen any testing reports, but if Wine 2.0 is all that, then it may make Linux a much more viable desktop alternative for those people that *have* to use office. It literally just got released a few days ago, so their compatibility lists haven't updated with new tests yet. I'm crossing my fingers that this will be the thing that makes Linux viable to me.

I'm in the same boat as you. Been a long time Apple user but they're pissing me off like no tomorrow, but at the same time I despise Windows with an even greater passion. But for me, Linux just doesn't cut it for far too many reasons. I *want* to use it, but it flat out cannot replace a Windows system in a business environment.

I resent the fact that my purchasing decisions are no longer based on, "Which does the job the best?" but rather, "Which pisses me off the least?".

*sigh*

Re:Nope

[ruir]

Dell has had notebooks with pre-installed Linux for years now.

Re:Nope

[ruir]

Windows 10 is a shit, get real.

Re:Nope

[CrashNBrn]

Microsoft is making better products. Microsoft is making better "Apple-like" hardware than Apple.

Re: Nope

[Anonymous Coward]

Its just like centos gnome? Whatever. You talk from your ass.

Re:Nope

[The Grim Reefer]

Unless you plan to buy all the parts and assemble them - but that's been a more expensive proposition for at least 16 years

I still build all of my desktops. For me, long term, it works out better. Consumers have gotten more computer savvy over the years and look for more specs than they used to. The computer manufacturers know very well what specs they look for and advertise accordingly. The problem I have is with things like power supplies. Many prebuilt machines come with barely adequate power. I've seen a few that didn't' even meet the min spec for the CPU that was in it. If I need to add another SSD, or spinning disk, there may not be enough connectors, or power available. Open slots for cards or more RAM is another factor. Plus, I generally keep the same case, optical disks, and other stuff. I haven't had a PSU that I've purchased separately nuke an entire system in 30 years or so. I can't say the same of prebuilt systems.

Re:Nope

[unixisc]

Only for businesses. Not personal

Re:Nope

[wwphx]

I went Mac about a decade ago, I'm typing this on a brand-new 27" iMac (insurance replacement for my 2011 27" iMac that was stolen over Thanksgiving - long story). And I am an Adobe user, but not a CC user. I'm also a Microsoft user via Parallels as my former occupation was as a SQL Server developer/admin.

My main reason for switching was reliability and updates. I was sick and tired of OS crashes and reloads and having to reboot my computer seemingly every other day. Frequently the crashes took care of the need to reboot. One day I was sitting at work, again, about a decade ago, when the IT director came by my desk and started giving me a ration of shit about owning a Mac. Finally I turned to my Mac, ran uptime, then said "Yeah, Don, it's junk. It's only been up 46 days without a reboot." He turned on his heels and left.

Macs aren't perfect, and Windows has gotten much better, but man -- their UI just makes me want to claw my eyes out! I have a Windows 10 x64 box with a nice 28" Viewsonic connected to a nice Radeon card, and typing in a browser doesn't look much better than it did 15 years ago! I've never understood why in all the years of good video cards and GUI development that Microsoft couldn't get font rendering looking good. And you'll never get me off Time Machine backups! It made deploying this new iMac or my wife's new MacBook Pro that her boss bought her last Fall so easy. My wife is an astronomer and all of their data center is Linux, so Macs are a very smooth fit for the staff.

Maybe Microsoft is eating in to Apple market share. No doubt Apple has had some missteps. I don't care. As long as they're around or as long as I can keep their kit working, I'll stick with my Macs. I started with the original four-screw IBM PC and Dos 1.0 and worked on pretty much everything since then, and I've had more than enough. I just want my computer to work reliably. And that is what my Mac does.

Re:Nope

[david_thornley]

So, are you going to go Windows or Linux?

Yes.

Windows for stuff that requires it, Linux for doing real stuff. Works for me.

Re:Nope

[Anonymous Coward]

me too, to be specific, in the push for new features(that I probably don't need) they are loosing the reliability of some of the basics.
- my new mac/os can't find my network printers - nothing changed only the new mac/os.
- does not sync with my iphone calendars properly , duplicate entries, deletes other
- mail search does not work , can't find emails I know are there, never used to have this problem.
- mail does not play well with corporate email, attachments etc.. sure it never has but at some point you think they would have fixed it..
- DVD's that used to play don't , have no idea why, but my old mac still plays them. .... and the list goes on..
Sad..

Re:Nope

[Ol Olsoc]

Macs aren't perfect, and Windows has gotten much better, but man -- their UI just makes me want to claw my eyes out! I have a Windows 10 x64 box with a nice 28" Viewsonic connected to a nice Radeon card, and typing in a browser doesn't look much better than it did 15 years ago! I've never understood why in all the years of good video cards and GUI development that Microsoft couldn't get font rendering looking good. And you'll never get me off Time Machine backups! It made deploying this new iMac or my wife's new MacBook Pro that her boss bought her last Fall so easy. My wife is an astronomer and all of their data center is Linux, so Macs are a very smooth fit for the staff.

Remember we are in post truth days, alternative facts, and we elected it, so this is what America wants.

We have a nation where for some reason Popularity equals everything.So Kim Kardashian is the most beautiful woman in the world, VHS is the best video system, and the cheapest laptop that you can buy at Walmart is incredibly superior to a 30 K Mac Pro.

Toyota Corolla is the biggest selling car, so it is also the best car in the world.

Oh - and Honey Boo Boo's mother who recently re-hooked up with a registered sex offender who boinked one of her daughters, and has a new show, which is good television.

Somehow.

Re:Nope

[Ol Olsoc]

From my point of view or from Microsoft's? e OS X, but even that's starting to wear on me. For example, I'm required to sign into iCloud with the latest OS X update. I have not figured out how to turn this off.

You're doing something wrong, as I'm all up to date, and iCloud doesn't bother me at all.

Regardless, you need to get a machine with Windows 10 on it, and all of your troubles will go away, because Windows doesn't have problems. Only Mac and "OS X". And if you do have the latest Mac update, you aren't running OS X.

Re:Nope

[Ol Olsoc]

What's wrong with lying to a corporation like Dell? Other than the nuisance to lose 10 seconds entering the information, I don't see any problem.

It isn't lying - its alternative informtion, equally true and valid.

Re:Nope

[Anonymous Coward]

Depending on your employer, you might get a discount. it's not giant, but it's there.

I've done this in the past & haven't really noticed any annoying side-effect w/re: email & such.

Re: Nope

[oic0]

It's the inability to be able to figure stuff out on your own in Linux that kills it for me. It's designed by people that deep down inside hate GUIs. You need Google to find out what they've decided you need to type into terminal to make things happen. If rather not open my self to that kind of irritating frustration.

Re: Nope

[Anonymous Coward]

Fashion... lean to the left... fashion... lean to the right.... fashion...

We are the goon squad and we're coming to town.....

Re: Nope

[PoopJuggler]

Slowly dying by being one of the most profitable companies in the world?

Re: Nope

[Anonymous Coward]

Nintendo is cash rich and can survive for decades on it, too.

Sometimes becoming too big and too rich, particularly if it's been accomplished in a new and seperate market segment, can cause a company to perform really poorly on an earlier product line.

I sense a lot of rage and sadness coming from people who were once Apple fans. You know, they've stopped caring if the new Apple succeeds.

Re:Nope

[Austerity Empowers]

Font rendering (defaults are too big, ugly), UI elements are just too damned big and intrusive (wasted screen space), rendering is still slow and clunky, and still mysterious paging to disk no matter how much memory you have and of course, it still doesn't have a proper unix command line, utilities and tools. Sure you can run ubuntu, possibly this is an improvement over cygwin, but the best part of OS X is using the UI for UI tasks and using the command line for 99% of all things.

Re: Nope

[Anonymous Coward]

This. Linux is irritating frustration. There are no answers to be had because everyone figured out how to pipe bang and bang pipes into cron, awk, then sed the output and finally grep it and recurse with OMG WHAT WAS I DOING AGAIN???

But, to be fair Linux is hella powerful if you want to do something exotic. It's just that you really need to know what you're doing even if you're doing something that seems simple. It's too complicated if you don't need that power and it'll just waste your time.

Re: Nope

[Anonymous Coward]

don't worry, with Macs dies iOS, no need to port anything anymore. Embrace C.

Re: Nope

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually a pretty simple explanation - Monkeyshit Corp employs countless number of smelly obnoxious indo-chimps (estimated 70% of workforce) imported from india.

Those chimps have literally 3 months of boot camp training at the stupid jungle village. Coincidentally the same boot camp trains the rest of their smelly villagers as recruiters and then a law loophole allows them to tag along into amhericaa.

Butt-ugly street shitting coders from stupid jungles of stupid india will produce smelly butt-ugly excrement whether you like it or not.

Britts gave these shitty monkeys a language and now you have a Trojan horse.

Re: Nope

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree with you. OS X up to I believe Mavericks was the best. No stupid flat ugly shit.

JONY IVE MUST BE FUCKED INSIDE OUT BY A HEAVY DUTY HAMMER DRILL.

Somebody kill that stupid backstabbing fucker.

Re: Nope

[Anonymous Coward]

Great comment. Go die.

Re: Nope

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree with your main points and even just purchased an xps 15, but you are wrong about one thing doesn't have "all the ports" no Ethernet port unfortunately.

Re: Nope

[Anonymous Coward]

The ability to figure stuff out on my own is one of the reasons I enjoy linux. Most every command and config file have man pages accessible right from the terminal.

Re:Nope

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft has gained mainly because of its 2-in-1 designs. It is literally the thing driving their business, yet they see their role as making hardware pilots for other hardware vendors to follow. This is a by-product of everyone making hardware buying into the "desktops are dead, mobile and cloud are everything" bull. Apple hasn't put enough money or effort into Mac because their CEO lacks a vision for the desktop.

Re:Nope

[Shirley Marquez]

Nothing is stopping you from buying one for personal use. But it does mean they don't have any Linux systems at lower price points.

Re:Nope

[Shirley Marquez]

Make up a small personal business. No big deal. They don't ask for a lot of info, and you don't have to provide a tax number if you don't want to. Yes, you'll get email spam from Dell, but you're going to get that no matter what you buy from them; sending you tons of email begging you to buy more stuff is a key part of their business model.

Re:Nope

[Anonymous Coward]

From their point of view, I'm going to Windows, because I'll probably go with a Dell XPS 13. From my point of view, it will be Linux. The "problem" is that Microsoft still gets my money, and they still add it to their stats, despite me not wanting their product and not wanting to pay for it.

System76.com
GREAT! hardware and only comes with Linux installed. Great support too!

Re: Nope

[Anonymous Coward]

Never go Full Linux.

Re: Nope

[Anonymous Coward]

How is anything you said relevant to his well thought out post?

Re: Nope

[dna_(c)(tm)(r)]

Donald? That you?

Re:Nope

[vandamme]

It isn't lying - its alternative informtion, equally true and valid.

You have a position waiting for you in the Trump administration.

Re: Nope

[Ol Olsoc]

How is anything you said relevant to his well thought out post?

The you can't figure it out version.

Microsoft has the largest deployed user base, so many think it is the best PC out there. It ain't.

Re:Nope

[unixisc]

Actually, they ask things like the name of your business when you order something for business use. If you run your own company, that's trivial, but if you are an employee somewhere, either you have to get an authorization from your company's IT to buy it, or you have to make something up and lie. For me, that's not worth buying something from them: I might as well go to System 76

Re: Nope

[Anonymous Coward]

Um Microsoft isn't a PC there little slugger.

Re:Nope

[Anonymous Coward]

That's your opinion, that "Windows 10 is a shit." I'm an IT analyst for nearly 30 years and I think W10 is Pretty Damn Good. That's my opinion and it's an informed, professional opinion.

Does W10 have issues? Is the Pope Pol-er, Ger-uh, Argentine? Of course W10 has issues, Windows always has issues! I'm not some flaming moron, I know what I like and what I don't like. Even including the issues W10 is Pretty Damn Good.

The fact that there are about 400 million people running W10 suggests that a few people agree with me. Don't bother with the rants about the forced upgrades, I know the whole story. Sure, Microsoft wanted 1 billion installs by now, but that's an internal objective. I don't care about some MS executive's performance bonus and neither should you. 400 million installs after 1.5 years is also Pretty Damn Good. It is for example, way, way better than just about any prior Windows upgrade.

Re:Nope

[tingentleman]

If you're getting an XPS 13 and don't want Windows, take a look at their Developer Edition line; http://www.dell.com/us/busines... Ships with Ubuntu, but you should be able to put any flavor of Linux you'd like on it.

If some Linux distro SOMEWHERE built trackpad support that didn't suck I would be all over this (are all Linux devs on desktops? because the rest of us aren't...)

Re:Nope

[ncc74656]

Depending on your needs, there are less-expensive alternatives to that dongle. This one, for instance, provides three USB 3 (type A) ports and Gigabit Ethernet for $40. It's not even the cheapest such device; it's what Fry's had in stock (at $50) when I went looking. I already have micro-HDMI on my notebook (a Latitude 7370...don't know if the XPS 13 has this) and don't foresee much need for VGA.

Keeping up with the Macs

[Halomez]

I find it funny that the only Windows win is against a platform that Apple has all but abandoned for years. I wonder if Microsoft realizes how much trouble Windows is in.

Re:Keeping up with the Macs

[DogDude]

I wonder if Microsoft realizes how much trouble Windows is in.

RTFA

Re:Keeping up with the Macs

[Grishnakh]

What kind of trouble do *you* think they're in? I sure don't see it. For sure, I don't see them growing much any time soon, because the PC market is so mature, but I sure don't see them as being in any kind of "trouble" either.

PCs aren't going anywhere. You need them to do real work, which can't be done on phones or with phone OSes which are horribly limited (by design). Obviously, you (and many others) believe that Apple seems to be dropping the ball here, and sales numbers do seem to support that currently. However, there's no evidence that people are flocking to anything else either, in sufficient numbers to matter. As much as I'd like everyone to switch to desktop Linux, and have been hoping for that for 15+ years now, I've given up on it because I just don't see it happening. Luckily, desktop Linux is IMO completely usable and in fact superior, but that doesn't equate to mass adoption. People (and companies) are just too married to the Windows platform and its "ecosystem".

So AFAICT, MS can just sit back and milk the Windows/Office cash cow indefinitely. Again, this is not a company you should invest in if you're looking for a "growth" stock, but it absolutely should have reliable revenues.

Re: Keeping up with the Macs

[MightyMartian]

The PC market is hardly a major growth industry, so while it's increased its sales gap with the Mac platform, so what?

Re:Keeping up with the Macs

[Anonymous Coward]

This is also according to Microsoft Licensing. Of course license purchasing has gone up. To have any measure of control over Win10 you need enterprise. So a guy with 75 machines needs 500 licenses.

Re: Keeping up with the Macs

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you looked at Microsoft's cash reserves lately? 'Cause.... damn. Winning.

Re: Keeping up with the Macs

[MightyMartian]

Have you looked at Apple's cash reserves? 237.6 billion versus around 113 billion. Apple could buy Microsoft's liquid assets and still have over 100 billion to spare.

Re: Keeping up with the Macs

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you looked at Apples cash reserves lately? Because damn...they won.

Re: Keeping up with the Macs

[marklark]

Have you looked at Apple's cash reserves? 'Cause winning. More.

Re:Keeping up with the Macs

[admin7087]

I'm pretty convinced that the problem is more on Apple's side. Without their desktops, the whole Apple infrastructure is not going to work well (iPhone or TV as a central hub - nah...), but their desktop hardware is too lackluster. They currently seem to lack a Steve Jobs who comes up with a modular mind-reading Thrystor-RAM machine in the design of a toilet seat from a 22nd Century spaceship.

Re: Keeping up with the Macs

[Anonymous Coward]

And when desktop PCs stop selling entirely because they've been replaced with something else, what will MS have left? They have no mobile presence, they have shit web presence except maybe Azure, their tablets aren't selling, xbox is doing so-so, they have no music player, no tv box, etc... They really don't have much except for their Windows business partners, and maybe MS Office and SQL Server, and sooner or later they'll lose even those when people realize free alternatives are just as good, which is why they're so gung ho about forcing people to upgrade to Windows 10 so they can lock them in for another cycle. That doesn't sound like "winning" to me. If anybody is winning it's Google and Apple, who aren't stuck in the dark ages in terms of innovation. Name one thing MS has innovated in the past 20 years that has caught on.

Re:Keeping up with the Macs

[TechyImmigrant]

If Microsoft give Apple a kicking with it's surface products, we can look forward to Apple pulling out it's finger and doing a good job on the laptops and desktops the following year.

Re:Keeping up with the Macs

[Ayanami_R]

Linux biggest problem is that they (Distro makers) were never willing to raise some serious money and actually try. They kept appealing to philosophy instead of things that are known to work when done properly assuming you have a half decent product in the first place, marketing and promotion.

Problem #2 is that developers have failed to modernize their applications, and a LOT of stuff looks like it is from 2000. Flat, high contrast UI is what's "in," get with it.

I'll stop here as I could list about 10 serious issues such as these. As long as they try to win converts with Altruism, they aren't going to ever be in a position of taking anything from anyone.

Re:Keeping up with the Macs

[tepples]

As long as Apple keeps App Store submission exclusive to Xcode and Xcode in turn exclusive to macOS, I don't see "Microsoft giv[ing] Apple a kicking with it[s] [S]urface products" any time soon.

Re:Keeping up with the Macs

[Anonymous Coward]

"Linux is IMO completely usable"

As long as you're using it on a server that doesn't need to hibernate, wake from hibernation, or use wireless networking hardware, then yea! It's great!

Re:Keeping up with the Macs

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you noticed that "PC" ads are no longer made by PC manufacturers? Every single "PC" ad since the release of Windows 8 has been designed and paid for by Microsoft, because PC manufacturers are embarrassed by how terrible Windows has become.

Re: Keeping up with the Macs

[Anonymous Coward]

Damn I miss the days where the reality distortion field worked.

Now everything I see is horrible.

Can someone give me a blue pill please?

Re:Keeping up with the Macs

[Anonymous Coward]

"Linux is IMO completely usable"

As long as you're using it on a server that doesn't need to hibernate, wake from hibernation, or use wireless networking hardware, then yea! It's great!

OpenSUSE on my primary laptop for more than 5 years; it just works--biach.

Re: Keeping up with the Macs

[avandesande]

Believe it or not, large amounts of cash reserves is not a good sign. It indicates the company is stagnant and doesn't have anything to invest in internally to make the company grow.

Re: Keeping up with the Macs

[ranton]

That is the great thing about a healthy economy. More than one company can be winning at the same time. Anyone who thinks either Microsoft or Apple is in a bad position is either trolling or stupid. They are both huge companies with huge cash reserves and great products.They also both make mistakes, but not mistakes which create any existential threats to either company (so far anyway).

Re: Keeping up with the Macs

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds like Apple has one dollar for each time you posted that.

Re: Keeping up with the Macs

[Ayanami_R]

Only Apple is making real money on hardware, MS has seen this, and that's why they have gone service heavy. Even Apple will eventually have their hardware profits dry up, I think the better question is what will they do about that when it happens, MS already has a plan.

Re:Keeping up with the Macs

[Anonymous Coward]

"Linux is IMO completely usable"

As long as you're using it on a Linux-compatible computer like a Chromebook/Chromebox, then yea! It's great!

FTFY.

People tend to forget that Apple controls the hardware on OS X, which is the reason it doesn't have these sorts of problems.

Re:Keeping up with the Macs

[gnunick]

Linux biggest problem is that they (Distro makers) were never willing to raise some serious money and actually try.

Yeah, it's a little hard to "sell" something for free and compete with the $$ marketing campaigns of major closed-source companies. Want to tell us about how easy it is for you to raise some "serious money"? I mean, whenever you decide you're willing to raise it.

Flat, high contrast UI is what's "in," get with it.

I'll stop here as I could list about 10 serious issues such as these.

Um, yeah. If you think adopting the latest gee-whiz, touch screen-obsessed, desktop-crippling, dumbed-down UI on a desktop OS is a "serious" issue, I'm pretty sure I don't care to hear about your other 8 "serious" issues.

Once in a rare while I install and open some old app that's no longer in development and is stuck with some old turn-of-the-century GTK/GTK2 UI. So ugly! Yes, things were crappy in 2000. You couldn't even install a popular Linux distro and expect it to "just work". Hard to imagine that today!

The only trouble I have with Linux (I currently use Ubuntu) is a recent regression on my MacBook Pro--used to work perfectly, and still does on the Mac Mini I'm using this very moment. But even with some ACPI issues on the laptop I'm happy I don't have to use OSX on it. But sorry, I digress. I was talking about actual functional issues, nothing as "serious" as the latest high-contrast, flat UI fashion.

As for the UI... yes, things sure have improved a lot in the UI/UX world in the past 17 years, except in the MS world which seems seems to have been devolving for a few years at least, and I commend Linux distros not keeping up with touch-obsessed disgraces like the Aero/Metro UI that looks like a card game or something.

Re: Keeping up with the Macs

[MightyMartian]

It's Microsoft that's running around shouting "WINNING!" Yes, they're doing well, but Apple is the predominant technology company on the planet, and the fact that it's losing a bit of market share in a market where it hasn't had a dominant position for longer than my kids who are in their mid-20s have been alive is an idiotic metric.

Re: Keeping up with the Macs

[MightyMartian]

It can mean that, or it can mean a company is making so much money that they simply have no real means of re-investing all of it. The fact is that Apple's management is dividend-prudent, and has literally been raking in boatloads of money for several years now. It doesn't represent stagnation, it represents the fact that Apple is the most successful technology company on the planet right now.

Re:Keeping up with the Macs

[Anonymous Coward]

I've seen the surfaces craaawl into semi-regular use. The non-pro branch is a dead end. But if they opened up the pros a little so we could use them like proper laptops, they'd be very compelling.

If we see MSFT do that... we'll have a whole new ball game.

Re: Keeping up with the Macs

[avandesande]

So tired of Apple apologists. If the company disappeared from the earth, there would be no impact. If milking masochistic consumers is success, than have at it.

Re: Keeping up with the Macs

[MightyMartian]

I don't even own any Apple products. I gave my iPhone to my daughter three years ago and never looked back. But facts are facts. Apple is the most successful technology company history, and right now it is hands down the biggest.

Re:Keeping up with the Macs

[gweihir]

I wonder if Microsoft realizes how much trouble Windows is in.

I think they have some clue with their frantic efforts to re-image and re-invent Windows, that however mostly just piss people off and makes Win10 a complete no-go for large enterprises (no stable UI). They now have botched 2 Windows versions. My take is that unless they urgently stabilize Win10 and remove spying and forced updates, Windows is history.

Re:Keeping up with the Macs

[Kjella]

Depends on what you consider real work. At my work the servers are beefy but my development environment is 90% SQL Server Management Studio, 10% Visual Studio and it just needs to build fairly simple projects calling SQL procedures for most the heavy lifting besides the actual data flows. That and JIRA and Outlook/Lync, I could probably run it off Intel's compute stick. I remember someone else here saying they were a web developer working off a chromebook or something like that. I do need the big screen, keyboard and mouse. The computing power I'd need locally could fit in a thimble.

Re: Keeping up with the Macs

[avandesande]

They aren't a technology company they sell toys for man-babies. According to their latest earnings announcement they have nowhere to go but down.

Re:Keeping up with the Macs

[Registered Coward v2]

Linux biggest problem is that they (Distro makers) were never willing to raise some serious money and actually try.

Yeah, it's a little hard to "sell" something for free and compete with the $$ marketing campaigns of major closed-source companies. Want to tell us about how easy it is for you to raise some "serious money"? I mean, whenever you decide you're willing to raise it.

RedHat

Re:Keeping up with the Macs

[Ayanami_R]

Point 1, their problem, not mine. If they don't want to change from their philosophy based "free" paradigm then they never have to, but they'll never "win" the desktop. The only way this happens is with ad and marketing dollars, full stop. How they get to that point is their issue to solve.

Point 2, It is a serious issue, whether or not it is for you is another matter. but I know better than to even try to get my girlfriend to use win32 outlook, when the much simpler UWP mail client is available. She knew how to use that in seconds, traditional outlook, she would need a manual and all the controls for things she will never do were just in the way. I don't understand why power users cannot grasp that they are a TINY portion of the market, an that the money, and mindshare, is making stuff that's more grandma friendly and simplified with just core features. So yes, it's a serious issues if you are trying to get people to switch, if you aren't, as distro makers have made abundantly clear for 15+ years, then I guess it's a non issue.

We just ditched an old web front end for time clock management, from a 2005 era one to something from current year. The techs tell me there are almost no time clock related calls now. There used to be all sorts of buttons for things like audit time, check this, check that other thing, etc. They removed all that and just left IN, OUT, LUNCH. The auditors and all have a separate page for all the complication. Calls dropped 90% for issues with that system.

Re: Keeping up with the Macs

[MightyMartian]

Well, one thing is for sure, they bring out the anti-Apple babies.

Re: Keeping up with the Macs

[avandesande]

Being a baby has nothing to do with. It is simply the desire to avoid being a sucker....

Re:Keeping up with the Macs

[Grishnakh]

I need to add here that there's zero evidence that Microsoft is in any trouble, in fact it's quite the opposite:

Microsoft earnings blow past estimates in every category, beats Street

Looks like MS is doing just great lately. So all this talk about MS circling the drain is completely denying basic reality. I personally don't like it one bit (reading through my comments for the last 15 years would show that), but I'm not going to deny reality like so many people these days do.

Re:Keeping up with the Macs

[ilsaloving]

Dunno if you saw, but Wine just released 2.0, and they're touting things like full Office 2013 compatibility. I'm still waiting to see how the testing pans out, but if they've managed to crack that sweet spot then Linux may become a lot more viable for general use.

Re:Keeping up with the Macs

[ilsaloving]

Given how stubborn Apple is known to be, I think you're being too optimistic.

Re:Keeping up with the Macs

[TechyImmigrant]

Maybe, but I still have my Apple ][ and it still works.

Re: Keeping up with the Macs

[MightyMartian]

Whatever you say snowflake

Re: Keeping up with the Macs

[avandesande]

The magic of projection :)

Re: Keeping up with the Macs

[Anonymous Coward]

Gadget company. The predominant gadget company.

Re: Keeping up with the Macs

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly this. If apple was gone tomorrow nothing of value would be lost. Business would keep on running. People would just use alternate, superior products.

Re: Keeping up with the Macs

[strikethree]

Apple could buy Microsoft's liquid assets and still have over 100 billion to spare.

$100 billion. That is a little over $14 from every man, woman, and child on this planet.

And that is just the leftover amount from buying all of Microsoft's, a single entity, liquid assets.

Why is this value being hoarded? Why isn't some portion of it being distributed amongst the people who actually create the value? Sure, Steve Jobs got a lot when he was alive, but he was only 1 of the value creators. What about the Chinese people who actually built the devices? Why weren't they rewarded? Why did an architect for OS X only make industry standard pay?

This shit is fucked up. Profits, yes. Hoarding all of the gold, no.

Not so much winning as simply not failing as hard

[vux984]

Microsoft is only shooting itself in the foot while its opponents over at apple have somehow lodged their guns into their own rectums. Its not so much that microsoft is winning the battle, as apple is just failing worse.

Yeah right

[Anonymous Coward]

All my friends have ditched Windows 10 and gone to MacOS.
Several have lost work due to updates and reboots. These aren't IT people.
The spying and constant messing around with the system were enough for them.
OSX/MacOS isn't perfect but for them it is a whole lot better for average users than W10.
 

Re:Yeah right

[Anonymous Coward]

All my friends have ditched Windows 10 and gone to MacOS.
Several have lost work due to updates and reboots. These aren't IT people.
The spying and constant messing around with the system were enough for them.
OSX/MacOS isn't perfect but for them it is a whole lot better for average users than W10.

That's plural and therefore wrong.

Re:Yeah right

[Archangel Michael]

When Chrome starts running Android Apps, Microsoft will be dead, except for platform specific products, at which case, most of those could probably be wound up in a custom appliance. I'm simply surprised why anyone would need to build on top of Windows any longer.

Re:Yeah right

[Ayanami_R]

The same apps that I see complaints all over the web about not being "tablet ready" are going to do this? do tell.

Re:Yeah right

[Anonymous Coward]

I think your statement holds more than a grain of truth! I purchased a low end laptop a couple years ago with Windows h(8), It's currently sitting on a shelf at work collecting dust, and has been for over a year! I LOATHE Windows 8...and from what I have seen, Windows 10 is not much of an improvement! So I have been relying on my Windows 7 work computer, and just used my Android phone and Tablet for home duties (bank stuff, web browsing, facebook, netflix, hulu, that kind of stuff).

My NEXT computing purchase will be one of Samsung's new chromebooks, with the "flip" tablet mode and the stylus...and the ability to run all of my Android apps. I no longer need nor WANT MS in my life! I may be forced to use it for work...but if I can get my IT department to get VPN and Citrix running on my chromebook, I will abandon Windows completely!

Re:Yeah right

[tepples]

When Chrome starts running Android Apps, Microsoft will be dead

Which OS will the majority of developers be using to develop these Android apps, particularly if they're not ports of iOS apps?

Re:Yeah right

[Anonymous Coward]

All my friends kept Win7, but they're pretty savvy with computers.

- Too much good freeware
- Can pirate almost anything
- Better hardware support
- Fun to build your own stuff for the OS

Re:Yeah right

[TheFakeTimCook]

All my friends have ditched Windows 10 and gone to MacOS. Several have lost work due to updates and reboots. These aren't IT people. The spying and constant messing around with the system were enough for them. OSX/MacOS isn't perfect but for them it is a whole lot better for average users than W10.

Yep.

Re:Yeah right

[Anonymous Coward]

How will be Microsoft dead if chrome starts running Android apps when Microsoft gets $10 for every Android? EEE dude. Microsoft will run android apps natively (was already supported with windows8).

Re:Yeah right

[unixisc]

Chromebooks need to come in more configurations, like w/ i5s, i7s, and w/ more than just 2GB of RAM and 16GB of storage. Oh, and stop assuming that we have to be online all the time to get any work done

Re:Yeah right

[ruir]

Keeping alive an outdated system because it just works? I only know to nations in the world with this mentality ...English or Chinese. Which one are you? Coincidentally, the latter is also very prone to bot nets, I wonder why...

Re: Yeah right

[Anonymous Coward]

Let me know when Chrome runs Microsoft Excel.

Re: Yeah right

[Archangel Michael]

You know that for most people, Excel is overkill. And for the people where its not overkill, custom apps perform much better and are easier to maintain. I love good Spreadsheet as much as the next guy, having started building them back when it was VisiCalc on Apple ][e. I've set up some fairly sophisticated spreadsheets in all the major flavors, 123, Excel, Symphony, Quatro, Libre/OpenOffice and the aforementioned VisiCalc, so I know full well what a good Spreadsheet can do. That being said, most people can get by easily with Google Sheets (which runs on Chrome). I can count on my hand the number of people who could make use of Excel in ways not available on Sheets.

To the point I think you're making, technically you're correct, practically you're not. Chrome doesn't run Excel, but then again, most people don't need Excel to do their spreadsheet work.

Is Apple even trying anymore?

[QuietLagoon]

...Windows PCs are starting to chip away at Apple's strong grip of the high-end computer market...

From my viewpoint, it looks as if Apple has abandoned the high-end computer market. The product line has been stagnating.

.
Of course, leave it to Microsoft to declare itself winning over a competitor that has all but abandoned the particular marketspace.

Re:Is Apple even trying anymore?

[Anonymous Coward]

This is the way I see it too. Microsoft isn't winning the war. Apple just stopped trying.

Re:Is Apple even trying anymore?

[helsinki92]

Which still means Microsoft is winning the war.

Re:Is Apple even trying anymore?

[Skuld-Chan]

My brother makes motion graphics for various tv/web advertising firms - he said one trend that Apple totally dropped the ball on was using devices like the Surface Pro to paint and draw with using Adobe Photoshop (which Adobe worked with Microsoft directly on).

He told me there were people in his circle who decided that the capability was worth the price of the entire device.

So yes the high end exists, and yes it still depends on the killer app ;) - and yes in this one case Microsoft (working with Adobe) nailed it.

One of the reason's you won't see this sort of thing happening on iOS/iPad anytime soon is they still really don't have the computational power or - more specifically the memory requirements to manipulate or work with large print images, video and animations - something that big desktops and laptops are still king at.

Re:Is Apple even trying anymore?

[PoopJuggler]

Or it means that the market analysts at Apple know something that MS doesn't.

Re:Is Apple even trying anymore?

[Anonymous Coward]

We run a race. I give up and slow down. You still? WIN.
Apple are great boat anchors. Never understood the Apple is better. Maybe back in the RISC days.

Re:Is Apple even trying anymore?

[PoopJuggler]

Uh, real digital artists use Wacom Cintiqs, not Surface. I should know, I worked with hundreds of them. I've never seen a single artist use a Surface.

Re:Is Apple even trying anymore?

[Shane_Optima]

From my viewpoint, it looks as if Apple has abandoned the high-end computer market. The product line has been stagnating.

Which is really, really strange. I could see Apple execs having problems justifying a lower-end product line, since the margins are trickier and they have to be careful not to tarnish their own image, but for higher end stuff easily they could stuff high end parts in an Apple chassis, charge 20% more than the PC equivalent and call it a day.

Re:Is Apple even trying anymore?

[Anonymous Coward]

...Windows PCs are starting to chip away at Apple's strong grip of the high-end computer market...

From my viewpoint, it looks as if Apple has abandoned the high-end computer market. The product line has been stagnating.

.

Of course, leave it to Microsoft to declare itself winning over a competitor that has all but abandoned the particular marketspace.

Has everyone forgotten the Congressional appearance that Bill Gates made, testifying that Microsoft was, in fact in favor of competition, and to demonstrate, he *gave* Apple ( at the time insolvent) $100,000,000 so they could make payroll and stay afloat...?
The investigation decided that $100m was sufficient to call off the dogs...

Microsoft "won" ages ago...

Re:Is Apple even trying anymore?

[Trailer Trash]

...Windows PCs are starting to chip away at Apple's strong grip of the high-end computer market...

From my viewpoint, it looks as if Apple has abandoned the high-end computer market. The product line has been stagnating.

I mentioned a couple of days ago that the Apple Store in our mall here (note that I live in what's likely the richest county in the US outside of the DC Metro area) now has only two tables out of ten or twelve devoted to MacBooks. They have a Mac Mini and a tower and a couple of iMacs. The tables that used to be MacBooks are now tablets and phones, and wall space that was dedicated to iMacs and other high-end stuff (such as graphic design and music) is now given to Apple TV devices with game controllers. They have nearly ignored the actual laptops and desktops at this point, and this area is one of the largest concentrations of their core market that you will find anywhere.

We have another Apple Store about 15 miles away but I haven't been to it to see what they've done. Something tells me it's about as stupid as what I'm seeing here.

They really need to get their shit together and start marketing their computers. I'm heavily invested in the Apple ecosystem between laptops, minis, iphones, and all the requisite stuff that goes with them. I cannot recommend their products until they do some real upgrades to their product lines and get back to marketing them. Phones are nice, but their cross-sell capabilities are being battered right now by their own stupidity.

Another point is that the local Best Buy has nearly as many MacBooks on display in their little Apple section as the actual Apple Store which is easily 10x the size of Best Buy's Apple section.

I feel like they put Steve Ballmer in charge of marketing and didn't announce it or something.

Re:Is Apple even trying anymore?

[SeaFox]

...Windows PCs are starting to chip away at Apple's strong grip of the high-end computer market...

From my viewpoint, it looks as if Apple has abandoned the high-end computer market. The product line has been stagnating.

What does that leave then? Because Apple hasn't ever been in the low-end of the market, since the margins are too thin for their liking.

Re:Is Apple even trying anymore?

[Anonymous Coward]

No true Scotsman? What kind of digital art is required at the poop juggling company?

Re:Is Apple even trying anymore?

[Anonymous Coward]

The surface 1 and 2 had Wacom digitizers in them. Wacom shat itself when the 13" surface 3s were announced and pulled their tech. The patents on that piece of engineering is almost up. Once that happens, expect the next surface line to once again kill Cintiq sales.

Penny Arcade's artist mentioned using his Surface 1 as an art tablet, and how nice that was.

Re:Is Apple even trying anymore?

[Skuld-Chan]

Ok whatever - but Surface Pro 4 is still light years better than anything Apple provides out of the box.

Re:Is Apple even trying anymore?

[Anonymous Coward]

Doesn't sound like real digital artists then.

Re:Is Apple even trying anymore?

[Anonymous Coward]

Unlikely

Missing 'Pro' features

[TheOldBear]

I'll be hanging on to my retina mb pro for the foreseeable future [however short that is]. I like having the built in HDMI and SD card slots, along with the possibility of upgrading the internal storage. For a tru 'pro' Macbook, I would like to see Apple revive the old 2012 form factor, with single mini display port / thunderbolt 2 replacing the firewire port, 1 USB A & 2 USB C/thunderbolt 3 ports - and if possible both magsafe & hdmi ports. The old design's optical bay could hold either an optical drive, or extra battery, or extra storage - all user serviceable. The user should also be able to upgrade the RAM - up to 32 Gig.

Re:Missing 'Pro' features

[Higaran]

HA HA HA A user serviceable mac, LOL you'll sooner find a user serviceable Iphone. To get what you want will never happen, pretty soon they will seal the entire thing in the case just like a phone. If you want to do anything to it its basically destroyed, Apple specifically doesn't want anyone touching anything inside of their tech. Don't fix it, just buy a new one is basically their motto.

Re:Missing 'Pro' features

[sydsavage]

Couldn't agree more, with the addition of built in ethernet for network admins. Thinness means nothing if I've got to carry around a bag full of dongles. And 'Pro' means user upgradeable/repairable components, at least memory and HD. Dropping magsafe was a huge mistake, they could still allow charging thru USB C/thunderbolt.

For a desktop, bring back the cheese grater tower, with current spec ports and SATA 3, perhaps M2/PCI for SSD connectivity.

They have the sexiest designs, but seem to have forgotten that form follows function. Having no user serviceable/upgradable parts on entry level machines is fine if really necessary and helps lower the price point, as 99% of consumer level users never crack the case, but Pro's should have upgrade options besides thunderbolt.

Re:Missing 'Pro' features

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd buy one too... in the market for a new laptop and very disappointed with the options (not just Apple but Lenovo, Dell, Asus). I don't care about thinness at all and want access to the battery, RAM and HD. Light weight is good, but I'd rather have a better machine. The old Air/Pro distinction was near perfect. Now everything is so light weight and thin. Bring back the large format Pro as well. 12" 14" and 16" in the lineup would be good. Have the Pro be Pro and the Air be light and thin. Done. Miss my 12" Powerbook. I don't agree with the obsession of minimizing ports either.

Re:Missing 'Pro' features

[93 Escort Wagon]

Thinness means nothing if I've got to carry around a bag full of dongles.

EXACTLY THIS.

At work I was due for a computer replacement sometime around 2017. When the rumors started floating about what Apple was doing with the new MacBook Pros, I went to my boss last spring and convinced her to let me buy the 2015 version right then.

I love this laptop. The battery life is great. I use the SD slot regularly. I use the HDMI port on occasion. All of my USB devices are USB-A, and I can use them without dongles. I think MagSafe is great.

And, as I've stated on Slashdot before, given the direction Apple is obviously heading... this may very well be my last Mac.

Re:Missing 'Pro' features

[Anonymous Coward]

dont forget making sure you have to but all your upgrages you'll evern need RIGHT NOW at vastly inflated prices.

remember the old mac mini i7s? great devices half decent price, then you could rip out the ram and hard drive and shove ssd, big drive and a whack load of ram in there for peanuts.

that was the last time there was a value for money mac.

Re:Missing 'Pro' features

[Anonymous Coward]

Most of the network admins I know have been carrying around a serial port dongle for years. I've yet to see one have a stroke over it.

Re:Missing 'Pro' features

[indigocat]

I work at my country's Apple Authorized Service Provider. Most of post 2009 hardware fails rather early, and isn't even fully serviceable. Your iPad's battery crapped out? Even after a measly 2 years? Forget about having it replaced: you'll be quoted a new iPad at a discounted price (around 40% off, in average). Can anyone even open the iPad? Not even certified techs want to waste their time with that.

Re:Missing 'Pro' features

[Anonymous Coward]

HA HA HA

A user serviceable mac, LOL you'll sooner find a user serviceable Iphone. To get what you want will never happen, pretty soon they will seal the entire thing in the case just like a phone. If you want to do anything to it its basically destroyed, Apple specifically doesn't want anyone touching anything inside of their tech. Don't fix it, just buy a new one is basically their motto.

Of course apple cares about serviceability. Warranty costs are big. Apple would shoot themselves in the foot if they made a Mac that even they couldn't easily service.

Follow the miney

[Anonymous Coward]

And yet, ads that show computers seemingly always show Macs. Probably because they look good. Is it so bad to make a product that looks good as well as being good? Why do the exteriors of Windows laptops all look like they were designed by electrical engineers?

Re:Follow the miney

[PCM2]

Either that, or it's product placement. You reckon Apple might have a few bucks to throw at marketing?

Re: Follow the miney

[Anonymous Coward]

Probably. But in many cases it might just be the better choice visually. When I see an Apple laptop in an ad I think "What a nice looking computer"; when I see a Windows laptop in an ad I think "I wonder how much Microsoft had to pay to get that ugly box on there?"

No... no it's not.

[Lumpy]

Sorry but uptake of Win10 is still dismal. even with giving it away for free.

If you count the latest macbook? yes, as it's more of a netbook.

Microsoft needs to fire all it's marketing department and executives and get some people in there that have a clue. They botched a lot of the 10 rollout that made people distrust them more.... They need to desperately change that and the only way is to clean house at the top.

Re:No... no it's not.

[DontBeAMoran]

You misspelled "it's not really free if you already need a recent Windows license".

Re:No... no it's not.

[PoopJuggler]

They have botched everything for the past 30 years.

Re:No... no it's not.

[Anonymous Coward]

You're a known Linux troll, so this is going to really fry your taters.

First place: Windows 10 64 bit @ 48.97% (+0.60%)

Dead last: Linux @ 0.80% (-0.08%)

It's true

[Anonymous Coward]

That surface studio is a superior product for graphics people than anything you can get from Apple, by far.

Also, I know lots and lots of laptop DJs and music producers 'cause that's what I do. Most of them used to totally swear by Apple, but they're all jumping ship to Windows now because of non-supported hardware drivers for peripherals.

I suppose

[wickerprints]

If your enemy shoots themselves in the foot, that doesn't mean your aim has improved. Microsoft products still suck; they just suck a lot less relative to how much worse Apple products have become.

Re:I suppose

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft products_ suck_ and stink as a Nigerian_ whore full of sperm from the other "donors" and with HIV. And Ebola_...Heil Curry Nutella.

Microsoft wins regardless due to Parallels

[Anonymous Coward]

Well Microsoft is winning regardless due to Parallels. A lot of Mac owners buy Parallels and install a Windows VM, so either way Microsoft gets money for licensing Windows.

Re:Microsoft wins regardless due to Parallels

[Anonymous Coward]

Do they? It is not 2004 anymore...We have got Numbers, Pages, and Keynote...

Re:Microsoft wins regardless due to Parallels

[DontBeAMoran]

You are right. Excel, Word and PowerPoint are the only reasons someone might need to use Windows...

Re:Microsoft wins regardless due to Parallels

[tepples]

How well does Numbers run complex macros, such as the validation macros in the spreadsheets that Amazon Seller Central encourages sellers to use? And what instead of Microsoft Access to run commercial off the shelf VBA apps?

Re:Microsoft wins regardless due to Parallels

[Anonymous Coward]

Vade retro Satana.

Re:Microsoft wins regardless due to Parallels

[tepples]

Starting playlist: Retro Santana.

It may well be...

[ilsaloving]

It may well be, but it's not because of anything Microsoft is doing.

Virtually every professional I know have all but given up on Apple thanks to the idiocy they've been pulling in recent years. At this point, it is so beyond glaringly obvious that they're now just taking the piss out of their customer base, that people no longer feel that that apple tax is worth it.

I just priced out a 13" MBP for myself. The MINIMUM viable product for my use is almost $3000. And this is minimum viable for my CURRENT needs, never mind what I might need a couple years from now. And of course, Apple forces me to plan ahead cause they solder everything onto the main board with no option for future upgrades. And this price doesn't count the bajillion dongles I'll have to buy (since the bajillion I already own are now useless), nor apple care.

The part that pisses me off the most is that they are very obviously gimping their lower priced products to force people to buy the more expensive stuff. For example, the base 13" MBP with a memory and storage bump would have been good enough for me.... EXCEPT IT ONLY HAS TWO TB3 PORTS AND ONE GETS USED FOR POWER. So you have literally ONE whole port to do *everything*.

And as of right now, there is literally NOT ONE single TB3 port replicator or hub available on the market to purchase (Yes, I've looked. Even OWC won't be available for at least a couple months from now at the soonest), so my options are to cobble together some ridiculous spaghetti mess of dongles, USB hubs and other nonsense just so I can use an external monitor and ethernet at the same time, or I spend the extra $700 to get their highest end model that graciously allows me to upgrade both ram and storage, AND has 4 TB-3 ports to use. (Their mid-range specifically does NOT give you the option to upgrade storage. You can have any size you want as long as it 256GB)

The currently generation of macbooks are flat out inexcusable.

Re:It may well be...

[aicrules]

This doesn't change the overall issue you describe, but there is this hub: https://www.bourgedesign.com/s...

If that helps make the base MBP work for you though, then perhaps that will alleviate your overall issue though.

Re:It may well be...

[Anonymous Coward]

> minimum viable for my CURRENT needs

You might want to revisit that given that Apple hasn't increased the amount of RAM they allow in a laptop since the mid-2010 model that was released about tax day (around April 15) in 2010. I remember that because I ordered one the first day it was available. I'm still using that one nearly seven years later since Apple has refused to allow us to have more RAM than I have in my nearly seven year-old laptop. They've done a few nice improvements like making the screens a little better, the trackpad a little larger, the battery last a little longer, and the laptop a little thinner. Notice the repeat of the word "little." They've only done little things.

We need memory. You can't use a damn computer without it. Stalling progress for nearly seven years is just ridiculous. Apple has given-up on innovation.

Re:It may well be...

[hey!]

One thing that has characterized Apple as a business over the decades is that it doesn't stay in businesses where it can't charge a premium for design qualities that other companies can't match. It has no interest in engaging in price competition with other companies providing similar products.

This drives a mania for novelty and differentiation which is great when it works out, but it also means you can't count on Apple in the long term. They're like a boxer with a massive punch and a glass jaw.

Re:It may well be...

[ilsaloving]

Thank you. I hadn't seen that particular model. However, I'll point out that it's only available for pre-order, so it too isn't shipping yet.

Re: It may well be...

[Anonymous Coward]

The A1278. It's only 1066 MHz but that's so much faster than swapping that it doesn't really matter. It's amazing Apple just gave-up on important hardware improvements seven years ago.

Re:It may well be...

[ilsaloving]

Agreed. They care more about making it thinner than giving people a product that is actually meaningful to them.

I'm in the same boat. At home I have a 2011 MBP that you can pry from my cold dead hands. The last model to have a built in ethernet port, and nearly the last that let me upgrade the ram and HD myself. I boosted it up to 16GB and added a 1TB SSD, and it's still doing well as long as I don't try to play 2016 AAA games.

The only reason I'm looking for a new MBP now is cause my current work machine is no longer able to keep up with what I'm doing (mac mini) and it's pointless to buy another one since Apple hasn't even updated it.

Re:It may well be...

[aicrules]

Dang it, they were supposed to launch early this month...that's why I had been following them. Typical...

Re:It may well be...

[T.E.D.]

I just priced out a 13" MBP for myself. The MINIMUM viable product for my use is almost $3000. And this is minimum viable for my CURRENT needs, never mind what I might need a couple years from now. And of course, Apple forces me to plan ahead cause they solder everything onto the main board with no option for future upgrades

This is hardly new behavior out of Apple. Every product of theirs since Woz quit designing them has been unupgradable, and overly expensive for what you get. With a 35 year track-record like that, why would anyone ever expect anything else from them?

Re:It may well be...

[ilsaloving]

That's not entirely true. During the golden 2000's, basically when Steve Jobs came back, they started putting out machines that you could actually do something with. They switched to intel. They started using standardized PC parts. And strangely enough, this is why Apple's sales started ballooning.

At home I currently have a 2011 macbook pro where I was able to upgrade the ram to 16GB. I replaced the hard drive with a 1TB SSD. With the exception of the battery now being borderline unusable, the machine itself is still chugging along fine.

But it seems that now that Cook is in charge, Apple is reverting back to the bad old days. And now they're paying the price with sales have started to go significantly negative for the first time in... what? 10 years? 15 years?

I can only hope that they pull their collective heads out and realize that they had a good thing going, go back to it.

Re:It may well be...

[chihowa]

The 2012 MBP was the last to have an ethernet port and upgradable RAM and storage. They were selling it new as recently as last year when I bought what will probably be my last Mac (or Apple product, likely). And yeah, with 16GB RAM and 1TB SSD, it's still doing everything I need it to.

Re:It may well be...

[ilsaloving]

Ooooh.... If you look at this update: https://www.bourgedesign.com/b...

This is VERY interesting...

Apple users, you have nothing to worry about- Arc Hub is compatible with all MacOS devices. However there is one restriction. Through our testing we found that using dual displays on a Mac will result in both monitors displaying the same extended screen. This is because Apple has left out the protocol to allow two unique video outputs out of a single USB-C/Thunderbolt 3 port. Until Apple decides to add this protocol to MacOS via an update, dual extended displays out of a single USB-C/Thunderbolt 3 port is disabled for Mac users.

So basically you have a port that theoretically can drive multiple monitors.... but can't. Wow.

At least the Arc Hub has passthrough charging. That's critical for these port-anemic laptops. My only complaint is that it doesn't include an ethernet port.... but I'm definitely keeping an eye on this. Thanks again for the pointer.

Re:It may well be...

[ilsaloving]

Holy crap!

I just came across this:

http://blog.macsales.com/39345...

This. This is the thing we need.

A day late and a dollar short Microsoft..

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple is clearly dominating in the war on Macs.

* Removal of the escape key from macbook pros
* No significant hardware refresh in years
* Soldering everything to the PCBs to prevent consumer repair

Microsoft is left in the dust when it comes to damaging the Mac's marketshare. There's no way they can hurt Apple more than Apple is hurting themselves. Just give it time guys, no need to bother with posturing and boasting. Apple will do it to themselves.

Re:A day late and a dollar short Microsoft..

[DontBeAMoran]

Don't forget about Apple downgrading the Mac mini in 2014 with something that was worst than their 2012 model.

Re:A day late and a dollar short Microsoft..

[TheFakeTimCook]

Apple is clearly dominating in the war on Macs.

* Removal of the escape key from macbook pros * No significant hardware refresh in years * Soldering everything to the PCBs to prevent consumer repair

Microsoft is left in the dust when it comes to damaging the Mac's marketshare. There's no way they can hurt Apple more than Apple is hurting themselves. Just give it time guys, no need to bother with posturing and boasting. Apple will do it to themselves.

Bullshit.

Re:A day late and a dollar short Microsoft..

[Anonymous Coward]

Bullshit.

Yep. Still not going to buy a new macbook after buying a new macbook every 2 years for 12 years. No escape key, no function keys, no self-repair, no thanks. I was 'ok' without being able to upgrade ram or SSDs for a while but these days even my PS4 lets me upgrade the storage..

And 'unique multitouch', speakers and extra microphones and paperthin don't seem like 'features' to me. Seems like fluff marketing people try to pass off as must-haves but for people doing real work with MacBook's they're just ... not.

Not by a long shot.

I hope the koolaid is at least a flavor you enjoy. You're going to need to drink a lot of it.

Apples hardware sucks! HP Z marketing is right!

[Joe_Dragon]

Apples hardware sucks! HP Z marketing is right!

http://www8.hp.com/us/en/campa...

This is where desktops / workstations are not going away anytime soon.

Also apple does not have anything the works good in server room other then running mac os in VM on non apple hardware that works but the license does not let you do that.

Re:Apples hardware sucks! HP Z marketing is right!

[PoopJuggler]

Methinks you're just bitter because HP's stock is in the shitter.

Re:Apples hardware sucks! HP Z marketing is right!

[Anonymous Coward]

Yet somehow the average Apple Macs is sold for around 2.5x as much as HP PCs.

Apple has more than doubled it's unit market share over the last decade, it's maintained it's price points while PC vendors have plummeted, and it actually still has good margins on Macs, around 5x the average PC maker.

Apple is probably the largest PC vendor in the world by revenue, and likely makes more profits off Macs than all the PC Vendors in the world make selling Windows PCs.

Re:Apples hardware sucks! HP Z marketing is right!

[Anonymous Coward]

With endorsements by people named "Devin Super Tramp", what could go wrong?

Re:Apples hardware sucks! HP Z marketing is right!

[Anonymous Coward]

Funny, I went Mac because of crappy HP laptops that would burn themselves into the ground about three weeks after the warranty was up.

I must say if I were to go to a desktop it would likely be a HPWS but I have no plans of buying a desktop anytime soon.

It Is Impressive!

[HannethCom]

While Apple has decided to roll over and die, Microsoft shoved a fork in their eye (Windows 8), shoved a fork in their other eye (Windows 8.1), then tried falling on their own sword (Windows 10) and finally are wiggling around the sword trying to hit a major organ, vein, or artery. (Anniversary Update)

Yes, I think Microsoft's OS is better, but they both seem to be trying to get the golden raspberry.

Re: It Is Impressive!

[Anonymous Coward]

So you recommend Raspbian then?

Re:It Is Impressive!

[Anonymous Coward]

I was with you until the last sentence. Frankly, it's been a while that I've looked at MacOS, but it was always ways superior to Windows since I can remember. And paradoxically Apple used to always make their profits with hardware (which has now become meh, I suppose). Has any of this changed so much? Did I miss something?

Re:It Is Impressive!

[TechyImmigrant]

MacOS is better. It's a unix derivative. I have my programs (in python & C mostly) on a network drive and they compile and run the same on Linux and MacOS. I use Latex and gnuplot a lot. They both run the same on Linux and MacOS.

Windows is not like that. It's it's own thing and I have to jump through hoops to make programs and documents work across all three. So I don't. I use a Mac and I use Linux. Work give me a windows laptop and I use it to ssh into Linux to do work.

Other people's priorities are generally very different to mine, but I don't give a crap about the minutiae of UI elements (unless it's truly horrible like Gnome). I care about the programming environment.

Re:It Is Impressive!

[amiga3D]

I care about the hardware too and there still isn't a real improvement out there to the 2012 15 inch macbook pro I already have. I'm still waiting on an actual hardware upgrade after 5 years.

Re:It Is Impressive!

[tepples]

I have my programs (in python & C mostly) on a network drive and they compile and run the same on Linux and MacOS.

Only if the program either is command-line or uses the GNUstep toolkit, a partial reimplementation of the GUI API now known as Cocoa. Otherwise, the user has to install XQuartz to make graphical programs designed for GNU/Linux work on macOS. Or what am I missing?

Re:It Is Impressive!

[Camel Pilot]

" I don't give a crap about the minutiae of UI elements (unless it's truly horrible like Gnome)"

So I gather from this you use Macs because it supports your programming/working environment and you don't have to deal with the UI disaster known as Gnome3.

Interestingly I maintain a set of Linux workstations and most of the scientist/engineer guest users of these workstations are otherwise Mac users. I have installed Gnome/Mate and they sit down and are immediately able to do work with little to no training and no complaining. I know that if I transition to stock Gnome3 I would get a lot of WTF moments. .

Re:It Is Impressive!

[Anonymous Coward]

Mac OS X is objectively better for underlying architectural reasons and quality - yes, it's also become a fucking annoying piece of bloated shit over the past decade in order to appeal to the masses, meanwhile important maintenance has been neglected over the priority of marketing new "features", I guess stability just doesn't sell, or is it just a race to the bottom in a different kind of way?

Re:It Is Impressive!

[PoopJuggler]

I'm with you. MacOS is the best GUI OS I have ever used, and I've used everything from GeOS to BeOS, Amiga, AT&T, Lisa, you name it. I've never heard anyone of any importance say anything bad about MacOS. VMWare Fusion fills in if I need Windows or Linux.

Re:It Is Impressive!

[TheFakeTimCook]

I was with you until the last sentence. Frankly, it's been a while that I've looked at MacOS, but it was always ways superior to Windows since I can remember. And paradoxically Apple used to always make their profits with hardware (which has now become meh, I suppose). Has any of this changed so much? Did I miss something?

No it has not changed. You missed nothing.

The hardware is great, with year-over-year improvements on just the MacBook Pro, and soon to be coming to the Desktop line, now that Intel has gotten their thumb out of their asses on their CPUs a little bit.

UNIQUE features, found in NO OTHER LAPTOP for the 2016 MacBook Pros (esp. the 15"):

1. 80 Gbps of raw, multifunctional I/O bandwidth. Nearly TWICE that of any other Laptop, regardless of brand, regardless of price.

2. 5k Internal Display on 15" model (I think the 13" is 4k?) I believe that is UNIQUE relative to any other Laptop, regardless of brand, regardless of price.

3. UNIQUE, Custom, Apple-Designed SSD Controller with the highest Read/Write performance in the industry.

4. Ability to natively drive up to FOUR 4k external displays, plus its internal 5k display, or up to TWO 5k external displays, plus its internal 5k display, more than any other Laptop, regardless of brand, regardless of price.

5. UNIQUE, multitouch, multifunctional Touch Bar interface, that not only replaces the Function keys, but also allows Applications and the OS to present the user with unique, custom controls that do not take up screen real-estate.

6. The largest Trackpad in the known universe ;-)

7. TouchID, with ApplePay and App Store Support, as well as several other OS and Application-Level functions.


Now, Add to that the improvements over even just last year's model; which are, all of the above items, PLUS:

1. MUCH better Thermal Management, which allows the CPU and GPU to run full-speed, essentially as long as power is available. The 2015 MBP had SEVERE "Throttling" problems, which seriously compromised performance in high-demand applications.

2. Thinner and lighter than the previous model (which DOES matter to more people than you would imagine) 3. Redesigned, improved keyboard (people who have owned both the 2015 and 1016 MBPs report the new keyboard makes the old one feel "mushy"). 4. USB-C and TB3 support.

5. MUCH improved speakers.

6. Three microphones in the 15" model, which helps with speech-recognition. Important, since Siri is now part of macOS.

And if you will notice, those are ALL solid, engineering improvements, with the possible exception of the size and weight reduction (which also took no small-amount of re-engineering).

So, as you can see, Apple has HARDLY "abandoned the Mac". And I haven't even talked about the improvements to macOS...

Re:It Is Impressive!

[TechyImmigrant]

I have my programs (in python & C mostly) on a network drive and they compile and run the same on Linux and MacOS.

Only if the program either is command-line or uses the GNUstep toolkit, a partial reimplementation of the GUI API now known as Cocoa. Otherwise, the user has to install XQuartz to make graphical programs designed for GNU/Linux work on macOS. Or what am I missing?

It's all command line. Statistics, data processing, plotting graphs to files that drop into latex documents.

I can do UI things in python with the same code, but I don't because it's of no use to me.

Re:It Is Impressive!

[unixisc]

MacOS is better. It's a unix derivative. I have my programs (in python & C mostly) on a network drive and they compile and run the same on Linux and MacOS. I use Latex and gnuplot a lot. They both run the same on Linux and MacOS.

Windows is not like that. It's it's own thing and I have to jump through hoops to make programs and documents work across all three. So I don't. I use a Mac and I use Linux. Work give me a windows laptop and I use it to ssh into Linux to do work.

Other people's priorities are generally very different to mine, but I don't give a crap about the minutiae of UI elements (unless it's truly horrible like Gnome). I care about the programming environment.

I understand that technically, OS X is better. However, for me, it would have been a step down from NEXTSTEP, which I used years ago. Initial versions of OS X were similar, but in recent years, they've made the OS more like iOS. Which I like on my iPad, but not on a laptop

The main issue about the OP's post is that the only way one can get OS X is by sinking a ton of cash on a Mac. Yeah, Hackintosh is there, but you are on your own. One way around it would be to buy a Linux configuration of your choice from System 76; another would be to just get the laptop of your choice, wipe it and install a Linux or a BSD distro on it and move on

Re:It Is Impressive!

[TechyImmigrant]

>So I gather from this you use Macs because it supports your programming/working environment and you don't have to deal with the UI disaster known as Gnome3.

The machine I sit on my lap is a mac. I have other machines that are Linux. I use Linux at work (for chip development). To be fair I was using and Apple ][+ when it was new and current and that was way before Gnome-anything.

Re:It Is Impressive!

[Anonymous Coward]

No it isnt.

Re:It Is Impressive!

[Anonymous Coward]

What about horrible keyboard shortcuts? (Enter key for rename!) What about terrible use of virtual displays (or whatever they are called). Crashing all the time (oh i hear new sierra beta is fixing that!), USB ports that stop working when plugging in new monitor, visual artifacts when using usb hub on monitor, ... seriously Windows ME was better OS than MacOS is now.

Re:It Is Impressive!

[Anonymous Coward]

I've never heard anyone of any importance say anything bad about MacOS.

But the people of importance are now saying Windows 10 is as good as or in some ways better than OSX.

So you CAN be correct and wrong at the same time.

Re:It Is Impressive!

[Anonymous Coward]

you're a retarded fanboi.

1, 2, 4) shit you can't use because there are no TB3 docks
3) LOL. Samsung 960 pro is almost twice as fast.
5) LOL, my sides, you can put that smiley face there on the touchpads
6) smaller is actually better
7) Thinkpad from fucking 2005 had that

Re:It Is Impressive!

[Greyfox]

Last time I was really in to MacOS, the game scene wasn't really that great. It wasn't as bad as Linux in the '90's, but it wasn't great either. You could dual-boot your Mac over to Windows to play games, but then you had to live with a video card that was several years behind the Windows state of the art at the time.

Funnily, my linux box with Steam is a better gaming platform than my last Mac was. I still apparently have to jump through hoops to play something like World of Warcraft or Skyrim, but there are an ever-increasing number of indy titles and a lot of those are quite good.

If I could get WoW or Skyrim running effortlessly on my Linux box, Apple and Microsoft could both fuck right off.

Re:It Is Impressive!

[TechyImmigrant]

Meanwhile I need to get on and get stuff done, so I went to the Apple store and got me a macbook pro.

The bash shell looks pretty much the same regardless of what you run it on. The macbook hardware is nice. I tried the new keyboard on the new mac and hated it, so it might be the end of the line for me and macs when this one dies. I'll be replacing the battery soon instead of upgrading to a new macbook.

Re:It Is Impressive!

[unixisc]

One more thing I don't like is that none of the Mac keyboards have the numeric keypad on the right

Re: It Is Impressive!

[TechyImmigrant]

>If MacOS is a Unix derivative, then Windows is a VMS derivative.

Well both MacOS and VMS claim to be posix compliant. Windows claims that too, but when I try piping the output of my command line program through awk, it doesn't seem to work in cmd.exe.

Re:It Is Impressive!

[chipschap]

But the people of importance are now saying Windows 10 is as good as or in some ways better than OSX.

People of importance from Microsoft, no doubt.

Re:It Is Impressive!

[vux984]

1. 80 Gbps of raw, multifunctional I/O bandwidth. Nearly TWICE that of any other Laptop, regardless of brand, regardless of price.

If it had a port to check my car's tire pressure that would also be a feature that no other laptop has, at any price. In other words: so what?

This falls into the category of shit I don't need and can't use with any equipment i own or am likely to own this year. The multifunctional i/o bandwidth available in other laptops is fine. Apple going to 11 on this feature is all fine and dandy but it lacks the features users actually need and want.

2. 5k Internal Display on 15" model (I think the 13" is 4k?) I believe that is UNIQUE relative to any other Laptop, regardless of brand, regardless of price.

UNIQUE yes. UNIQUELY pointless. Its just more "Innovation" nobody cares about. Do you have 5k content? No? So who cares? At 15" will it look any better than 4k display? No? So who cares?

3. UNIQUE, Custom, Apple-Designed SSD Controller with the highest Read/Write performance in the industry.

I'd far rather a COTS module I can replace in 2 years for $200 for with a 4TB one. I'm willing to give up a few % points of performance for that. My 2011 Macbook pro is still useful to me (my family at least) because I was able to upgrade the RAM and SSD. This new one? Sure its a few points faster ... but its stupidly overrpiced for the marginal improvement in speed, and you're stuck with whatever capacity you get today forever. I don't object to the existence of this tech as an option for people who want it... but does apple give you the option? Nope. If you want an MBP you have to have this overpriced tech whether you want it or not, whether you need it or not, whether you'd be happier with COTS SSD or not.

4. Ability to natively drive up to FOUR 4k external displays, plus its internal 5k display, or up to TWO 5k external displays, plus its internal 5k display, more than any other Laptop, regardless of brand, regardless of price.

But no native ability to connect to even one HDMI projector in the customer or hotel meeting rooms without carrying a bag of accessories. Swing and a miss.

5. UNIQUE, multitouch, multifunctional Touch Bar interface, that not only replaces the Function keys, but also allows Applications and the OS to present the user with unique, custom controls that do not take up screen real-estate.

Replacing keys i can touch type with a bar i can't is not progress. It's 2 steps backward 1 step forward. Cool feature, maybe, definitely wasn't worth giving up function keys I can touch type with for, and the escape key. What's the next innovation to replace the number key row too? Then you can have numbers or even more application controls. Better still just get rid of the keyboard and staple two ipads together as the new macbook pro.

6. The largest Trackpad in the known universe ;-)

There is too small. And there is big enough. "Largest in the known universe" isn't worth anything once the others are 'big enough'.

7. TouchID, with ApplePay and App Store Support, as well as several other OS and Application-Level functions.

So, as you can see, Apple has HARDLY "abandoned the Mac".

I kind of recall Top Gear covering a lot of cars over the years that are just like the mac book pro... you know the ones... the cars with 1500 horsepower but no trunk or glove box. $50,000 for custom brake system that shaves 6 ft off a stop from 60 to 0... but well... $50,000 and when they fail you have to fly an engineer from Italy to service them. And you need a truck following you around with spare tires because it rips through a pair as often as a regular car needs to fill up with gas. A tour de force of technology... but completley useless as a daily driver.

That's the macbook pro...sure its got support for up to four 4k screens but you need to carry around a bag of dongles to attach a USB flashdrive. 80Gbps of io but we're not allowed to have more than 16GB RAM? Its utterly ridiculous.

Re:It Is Impressive!

[Anonymous Coward]

you're a retarded fanboi.

3) LOL. Samsung 960 pro is almost twice as fast.
5) LOL, my sides, you can put that smiley face there on the touchpads
6) smaller is actually better
7) Thinkpad from fucking 2005 had that

960 Pro 3.5 / 2.1 read/write Gbps
15" MBP 3.1 / 2.2 read/write Gbps

Smaller trackpads have no advantage whatsoever. Has anyone ever asked for a smaller mouse pad?

Built-in OS support for biometric devices is new to Windows 10 with Windows Hello, and I strongly doubt any software outside the crapware IBM/Dell/HP shipped bundled with their systems ever integrated with their respective biometric systems.

Re:It Is Impressive!

[Creedo]

If I could get WoW or Skyrim running effortlessly on my Linux box, Apple and Microsoft could both fuck right off.

From Vanilla to MoP, I was able to run WoW just fine under Wine. And that was on a triple core AMD system with a shitty Nvidia card. Did something change since then?

Re:It Is Impressive!

[ruir]

Wtf are you smoking? The touchbar must be the most retarded thing, and the main reason I wont buy a Macbook.

Re:It Is Impressive!

[ilsaloving]

You've been marked Funny, but this is a pretty accurate summary of the situation right now.

To paraphrase Microsoft's slogan, "How do you want to get fucked over, today?"

Re:It Is Impressive!

[Anonymous Coward]

The only thing I disagree with your post is the touch pad part. Apple track pads are amazing and I will miss them when I switch.

My 2012 MBP is dying and nothing Apple is even dreaming of putting out comes close to replacing it. So yeah, XPS 15 or so is my next computer.

Re: It Is Impressive!

[Anonymous Coward]

Idiot. Myopic. Retard. 5k content? Well mr retard, text and web briwsing, and programming will be much clearer. Screen recording will be 5k. Fucking so stupid you are.

Idiot asshole. Touch at. By default is the function keys. Then app like Final Cut Pro use it which is very useful for scrubbing etc. even for youtube. You fucking retard.

Usbc and nonports. Sucks but my mac lasts over 5 years. 2 years from now everything will be usbc. And my mac will not be running the last gen significantly slower ports. Fucking geez you are so stupid.

In fact because you don't really produce anything and are poor so you can't see past your shit sub par equipment. Never mind. Stupid. Like really stupid people like you will never ever get it. But you don't count in the real world. You don't matter. You don't produce anything. You are shit.

Re:It Is Impressive!

[david_thornley]

But the people of importance are now saying Windows 10 is as good as or in some ways better than OSX.

Thus demonstrating that people of importance can afford the better recreational pharmaceuticals.

Re: It Is Impressive!

[TheFakeTimCook]

Idiot. Myopic. Retard. 5k content? Well mr retard, text and web briwsing, and programming will be much clearer. Screen recording will be 5k. Fucking so stupid you are.

Idiot asshole. Touch at. By default is the function keys. Then app like Final Cut Pro use it which is very useful for scrubbing etc. even for youtube. You fucking retard.

Usbc and nonports. Sucks but my mac lasts over 5 years. 2 years from now everything will be usbc. And my mac will not be running the last gen significantly slower ports. Fucking geez you are so stupid.

In fact because you don't really produce anything and are poor so you can't see past your shit sub par equipment. Never mind. Stupid. Like really stupid people like you will never ever get it. But you don't count in the real world. You don't matter. You don't produce anything. You are shit.

For once I agree with an AC. Bravo on "Getting it"!

Re:It Is Impressive!

[Anonymous Coward]

Epic. This is why Apple didn't get my $2k+ for the latest Macbook Pro and instead bought another pre-unsoldered RAM/SSD unit off ebay for sub $1k.

And no, it had absolutely nothing to do with the dollars. I'm price insensitive when it comes to quality equipment, but this had too many show stoppers to overlook.

Better wake up Apple, you're at an inflection point here...

Re:It Is Impressive!

[TechyImmigrant]

One more thing I don't like is that none of the Mac keyboards have the numeric keypad on the right

I hate the numeric keypad on other laptops. They push the main part of the keyboard to the left and it's horrible.

Re:It Is Impressive!

[Anonymous Coward]

Where are you getting your specs? I can't find many of the specs you claim.

1. 80 Gbps of raw, multifunctional I/O bandwidth. Nearly TWICE that of any other Laptop, regardless of brand, regardless of price.

Thunderbolt 3 is 40Gbps. There is 4 for a total of 120Gbps I believe.

2. 5k Internal Display on 15" model (I think the 13" is 4k?) I believe that is UNIQUE relative to any other Laptop, regardless of brand, regardless of price.

MBP 2016 15.6 inch has 2880x1600. That is not 5k.

. Ability to natively drive up to FOUR 4k external displays, plus its internal 5k display, or up to TWO 5k external displays, plus its internal 5k display, more than any other Laptop, regardless of brand, regardless of price.

Needing that many monitors, you're better off doing with a desktop/workstation.

Re:It Is Impressive!

[TheFakeTimCook]

The only thing I disagree with your post is the touch pad part. Apple track pads are amazing and I will miss them when I switch.

My 2012 MBP is dying and nothing Apple is even dreaming of putting out comes close to replacing it. So yeah, XPS 15 or so is my next computer.

Good luck with that Hell computer and Windows 10, Spyware Edition!

Re:It Is Impressive!

[vux984]

"You, sir, are an unmitigated moron."

Funny. I feel the same way about you. You are spouting absolute nonsense. We're both modded +5. Neat.

5k is irrelevant. its irrelevant today and it will still be irrelevant in 5 years. if anything, we'll move to 8k before 5k gets any real traction.

Go to Amazon. No need to carry "a bag of accessories". Just buy something like THIS, or THIS, or even THIS or THIS, and you're all set for "Legacy Ports".

Yeah... buy a laptop missing a bunch of features, and then attach another smaller box to it to make it an actual pro laptop. That's brilliant. Pro users want a workhorse like a truck and you think they should just buy a car and trailer, and that that it is just as good? You know any contractors who drive a civic and pull a trailer around? Ever wonder why not? BECAUSE THEY CAN BUY A FUCKING TRUCK.

That shit on amazon wouldn't be necessary if you could buy a proper laptop in the first place.

Once again, "My Use Case MUST be EVERYONE'S Use Case. WTF is wrong with you???

The difference between my examples and your is the users I am representing is the *actual majority of users*, and the use-cases you are campaigning for are the tiny niches. Which use case is more common?

a) A pro user who needs to attach a flash drive to their computer, or an HDMI projector in a board room?
b) A pro user who needs 5k screen and 4 4k screens all attached to his laptop; because he doesn't already have a desktop?

Catering to b) is perfectly fine, but claiming a) is not the far more common and important feature to support is just rectal cranial inversion.

If you look at the TrackPad on the MBP 2016, it is nearly the size of an iPhone screen. Next stop for that TrackPad will be to work with the Apple Pencil. Mark my words. THEN, it will make sense...

And if that happens in 2019 I'll give a shit THEN. But your wrong. Nobody wants to draw on the track pad. If anything Dell's convertibles have it right... flip it over and draw right on the goddamned screen.

This is hardly a Bugatti. This is a Laptop for PROs, that has an "Eye to the Future". But still practical today.

If it were there would not be a million articles taking a shit on it for not having the features people want TODAY.

That's why you can buy miniDP to ??? Adapters at WALMART these days, FFS!

I can buy tire irons at walmart too -- so what?

Doesn't mean my car shouldn't have one included in the tire change kit. Even my 911 has a collapsible tire change kit with everything needed to change a tire as standard equipment. Why? Because when I need to change a fucking tire i am not likely to be parked at a fucking walmwart where i can just buy a tire iron.

Likewise when I need to plug my laptop into a customers projector... that is not going to happen in the cable aisle at a walmart, where i can just reach over and grab the adapter i need. No. Instead it usually means NOT using the projector and having everyone gather around the tiny laptop, because in the real world you don't pause a meeting for 20 minutes to make a fucking trip to walmart.

And guess what? There are PLENTY of Non-Apple Laptops that have nothing but a miniDisplayPort Port. You'll be whipping out that "Bag Of Accessories" for them, too.

I can easily shop around bad design choices them when I'm buying Non-apple laptops. There are several vendors, with dozens of products lines that cater to pro-users. If apple is going to be the only vendor of OSX then it's under more pressure to get its one-size-fits-most to actually fit most.

If you are Pining for the USB-A, go to frickin' Amazon, and pick up a few of these $2.50 USB-C to USB-A adapters. They are cheap enough ($7 for 3) and small enough, that you can simply clip them onto your USB-A cables and LEAVE THEM THERE.

Yeah. I al

Re:It Is Impressive!

[Anonymous Coward]

The 2016 MBP trackpad is so large that it very much impinges on the space you use to rest your wrists on.

The thing is far too large, to the point where it is frustrating and hinders usability.

Another miss.

Re:It Is Impressive!

[epyT-R]

Relative social 'importance' of people has no bearing on the relevance of their opinions about GUI design.

Re: It Is Impressive!

[Anonymous Coward]

Before reading your comment, I thought you were going to respond "omg, an asshole like you is on my side!?!" Because gp commenter was really that over-the-top sanctimonious.

But then you didn't.

Re:It Is Impressive!

[TheFakeTimCook]

Wtf are you smoking? The touchbar must be the most retarded thing, and the main reason I wont buy a Macbook.

I'll alert the media!

Oh, wait...

Re: It Is Impressive!

[Anonymous Coward]

Lolwhut. It's VM system has been junk from day one, and still is.

Re: It Is Impressive!

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey when some Knuckledragger like that is about the only person who agrees with you it takes more than 'apple courage' to disassociate from them.

Re:It Is Impressive!

[Anonymous Coward]

No need to alert the media. Its been all over how stupid the touchbar is. I think they know.

Re:It Is Impressive!

[Greyfox]

I've always been able to get games running under wine for a while, but it seems like the setup always eventually breaks if you so much as look at it funny. It's been a while since I tried though, perhaps I'll take another crack at it.

Apple has been complacent

[sjbe]

I wonder if Microsoft realizes how much trouble Windows is in.

Microsoft is making tens of billions in profit from Windows every year with no end in sight. If that's trouble then give me some of that. PCs might not be the dominant force they once were but they aren't going away any time soon and there is nothing that is likely to displace Windows as the dominant operating system in PCs either. Furthermore Microsoft is the only ones doing anything even kind of innovative in traditional PCs these days. Their work in merging tablets and laptops is actually working in some areas (after a LOT of false starts) whereas Apple's big "innovations" are removing keys that nobody had a problem with and taking away ports people actually use. I'm not going to be a Windows fan any time soon but at least they are trying. Apple seems to not give a shit about the Macs anymore and they certainly haven't done anything in that space worth mentioning for several years now.

Re:Apple has been complacent

[MightyMartian]

Windows 10 tablet mode still sucks badly.

Re:Apple has been complacent

[Anonymous Coward]

Problem is Apple makes as much off selling Macs as all the PC makers in the world make selling Windows PCs. Apple has grown it's market share massively over the last decade, it still has 15-20% margins vs. PC vendor 3% margins, and Apple's average selling price is $1,200 vs. PC vendor $500.

MSFT took the industry profits and gutted the R&D capabilities of it's PC vendors by pitting them against each other to build the same bland boxes. There is little possibility of an industry recovery, so MSFT just has to hope that Apples first loss of unit market share in a decade is a trend and not an aberration.

Re:Apple has been complacent

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple's biggest problem is that they see Ives as the second coming of Jobs and keep letting him focus on nothing but thinness and lightness. Professionals don't care if their machine has to be a little heavier and thicker if it can accomplish the job they need it to, but Apple's modus operandi is telling people what they need rather than actually fulfilling the market need.

The new MBP is evidence of this. It's thinner and lighter and had to make hardware compromises for it. Less ports. 16GB of RAM cap. Battery life that's okay but not even at the same level as the previous machine from years ago.

Further they're screwing up in the release cycle. Professionals often can't wait multiple years between upgrades, and without a proper release cadence a professional needs to guess (and potentially bet the farm) on when to upgrade. That doesn't leave them with confidence. Couple that with a bad cycle and you have a lot of very legitimately spooked people.

Re:Apple has been complacent

[TheFakeTimCook]

Apple's biggest problem is that they see Ives as the second coming of Jobs and keep letting him focus on nothing but thinness and lightness. Professionals don't care if their machine has to be a little heavier and thicker if it can accomplish the job they need it to, but Apple's modus operandi is telling people what they need rather than actually fulfilling the market need.

The new MBP is evidence of this. It's thinner and lighter and had to make hardware compromises for it. Less ports. 16GB of RAM cap. Battery life that's okay but not even at the same level as the previous machine from years ago.

Further they're screwing up in the release cycle. Professionals often can't wait multiple years between upgrades, and without a proper release cadence a professional needs to guess (and potentially bet the farm) on when to upgrade. That doesn't leave them with confidence. Couple that with a bad cycle and you have a lot of very legitimately spooked people.

Bullshit.

Re:Apple has been complacent

[ilsaloving]

Apple's biggest problem is that they see Ives as the second coming of Jobs and keep letting him focus on nothing but thinness and lightness. Professionals don't care if their machine has to be a little heavier and thicker if it can accomplish the job they need it to, but Apple's modus operandi is telling people what they need rather than actually fulfilling the market need.

The new MBP is evidence of this. It's thinner and lighter and had to make hardware compromises for it. Less ports. 16GB of RAM cap. Battery life that's okay but not even at the same level as the previous machine from years ago.

Further they're screwing up in the release cycle. Professionals often can't wait multiple years between upgrades, and without a proper release cadence a professional needs to guess (and potentially bet the farm) on when to upgrade. That doesn't leave them with confidence. Couple that with a bad cycle and you have a lot of very legitimately spooked people.

Bullshit.

How can you POSSIBLY say "Bullshit" when everything the parent said is completely accurate? You're gaslighting other people to a level that would make Trump proud.

Apple HAS sacrificed functionality in order to get improved thinness. They've even fucking admitted it. The 16GB hard cap is just one of those compromises.

And Apple's release cycle *IS* messed up. Did you not notice that Apple didn't release ONE SINGLE desktop this year? I wanted to replace my aging Mac Mini for something new. Well guess what? I FUCKING CAN'T CAUSE THEY HAVEN'T MADE ONE. Don't believe me? Here you go. They have released nothing this year apart from their gimmicky new macbooks: http://www.everymac.com/system...

Apple can't even be bothered to tell people, "Yes, we are no longer making this." so that they can revise their purchasing decisions. When they discontinued the xserve, they waited literally YEARS before finally admitting that they did. They just let people stew in their own juices like assholes. I'm sorry (not sorry) but if I wanted to gamble, I'd go to Las Vegas, not to an Apple store.

Someone else already made a very thorough rebuttal to the comment you linked to if you need better details. I can't be bothered because I've had this argument with you before and I've lost patience with your gaslighting.

The fact is, Apple is run by flaming assholes. They've always been flaming assholes. But people let that slide (me being one of them) because they made damned good hardware and software that was head and shoulders above everyone else. But now, for whatever reason, they refuse to do that anymore. They've decided that they would rather take the piss out of their customer base. And the results we're all seeing is just the beginning if Tim Cook doesn't pull his head out of his ass real soon and resume making hardware that people can actually use.

It's like winning...

[mrlinux11]

An election while running against a dead opponent :)

Re:It's like winning...

[unixisc]

There is nothing stopping a dead opponent from winning an election. Except that if one loses to the dead opponent, one should automatically be disqualified from the runoff - not just the dead opponent

Re:It's like winning...

[Anonymous Coward]

Or against_ Crooked_ Killary_.

Apple is losing, MS isnt winning

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple continues to lock down and IOS-itize OSX and they never bother to make PC hardware people want. MS isnt competing as much as filling the vaccume

Apple forgetting what good design is

[sjbe]

Don't forget about removing the key on laptops to delete the character in front of the cursor. (you have to press 2 keys to do this super common function)

Don't forget about removing older style USB ports from their "pro" laptop that are almost in ubiquitous use.

Don't forget about how IOS and OS X still for some bizarre reason don't cooperate especially well and they don't provide a cable for their smartphone to plug into their "pro" laptop out of the box.

Apple seems to have forgotten that good design is about a lot more than a pretty case and some fancy fonts and the latest interface fads. Form should always follow function and they are forgetting about function in a lot of places.

Re:Apple forgetting what good design is

[TheFakeTimCook]

Don't forget about removing the key on laptops to delete the character in front of the cursor. (you have to press 2 keys to do this super common function)

Don't forget about removing older style USB ports from their "pro" laptop that are almost in ubiquitous use.

Don't forget about how IOS and OS X still for some bizarre reason don't cooperate especially well and they don't provide a cable for their smartphone to plug into their "pro" laptop out of the box.

Apple seems to have forgotten that good design is about a lot more than a pretty case and some fancy fonts and the latest interface fads. Form should always follow function and they are forgetting about function in a lot of places.

Bullshit.

Re:Apple forgetting what good design is

[Anonymous Coward]

Great post, cuck.

You neglected to mention that the battery only lasts for 30 minutes, they removed MagSafe, and you can't connect the computer to anything without a backpack full of tangled dongles.

All in the name of shredding a few millimeters in thickness.

Could have been a great computer, but the cucks in charge of APPL fucked it all up.

waitwut ?

[Anonymous Coward]

There ever was a war ? There ever was a point in time were Microsoft didn't own the most significant part of the market ?

Weighing Options

[unixcorn]

Work just provided me with a new laptop. It was my choice and I selected a new MBP 15 inch. My reasons are longevity - my last MBP, which I own, lasted more than 4 years, and I am still using it. OSX is an excellent operating system. I sometimes go months without rebooting and I use the machine 8+ hours each day. I can also run Windows on my MBP. I prefer VMWare Fusion for my virtual machines but Parallels is fine too.
Had I selected a Windows laptop, I would have only a Windows laptop. Having the MBP allows me to test and develop against both platforms. It also provides me with a way to run the less expensive versions of any commercial software, should there be a difference in cost.
So, while Windows licensing sales may be up, there is no way to know where those OS's are running. Heck, it could be that folks are buying licenses to run on their Macs.

Re:Weighing Options

[Anonymous Coward]

OS/X *was* an excellent operating system. Nowadays you wont go months without rebooting. My next netbook will run freeBSD; no Winblows or systemDick for me.

Re:Weighing Options

[Anonymous Coward]

It's true you won't go months without rebooting, but that's because recent OSX incarnations are more aggressive about nagging you to do updates that require a reboot. I can't remember the last time OSX actually crashed. Nor can I remember the last time Windows BSOD'd on me for that matter.

Bragging about uptime is so 90's.

Re:Weighing Options

[TheFakeTimCook]

Work just provided me with a new laptop. It was my choice and I selected a new MBP 15 inch. My reasons are longevity - my last MBP, which I own, lasted more than 4 years, and I am still using it. OSX is an excellent operating system. I sometimes go months without rebooting and I use the machine 8+ hours each day. I can also run Windows on my MBP. I prefer VMWare Fusion for my virtual machines but Parallels is fine too. Had I selected a Windows laptop, I would have only a Windows laptop. Having the MBP allows me to test and develop against both platforms. It also provides me with a way to run the less expensive versions of any commercial software, should there be a difference in cost. So, while Windows licensing sales may be up, there is no way to know where those OS's are running. Heck, it could be that folks are buying licenses to run on their Macs.

Exactly.

Now watch as you get Punish-Modded down into the dirt by the Apple-Haters.

Re:Weighing Options

[Greyfox]

I just weighed my options recently and opted for a Dell Precision with Linux preloaded. It's a beautiful little machine, a far cry from Dell laptops that I'd been issued at work in recent years, and all the hardware on the machine works flawlessly with Linux without the usual sorts of fuckery that I've had to resort to in the past when installing Linux on laptops.

Re:Weighing Options

[Bryan Ischo]

I have had three notebook computers in the past 20 years:

- A Kapok brand cheap-o generic PC thing that I bought in 1998, and which lasted 7 years with no problems
- A Panasonic toughbook Y2 that I bought in 2005 which lasted 7 years with no problems
- A Retina Macbook Pro 15 inch that I bought in 2012 and which I am using to this day, four and a half years later

I now expect all of my laptops to last 7 years with no problems. Lasting 4 years isn't really anything to write home about in my book. We'll see if this mac makes it all the way to 7, it's starting to show some troubling signs of premature aging at the moment ...

soldered storage is an no go for pro work.!

[Joe_Dragon]

soldered storage is an no go for pro work.!

Re:soldered storage is an no go for pro work.!

[PoopJuggler]

Then you're not a pro. A real pro adapts.

Re:soldered storage is an no go for pro work.!

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you adapted to being raped in the butt by Apple? Bloody sheep.

Re:soldered storage is an no go for pro work.!

[ilsaloving]

Says someone who juggles poop?

I won!

[Anonymous Coward]

I won the foot race when the previous champion twisted his ankle, I'm so great!

its the economy, stupid

[Anonymous Coward]

Businesses are opening their checkbooks and doing more hardware refreshes.

Fan

[Anonymous Coward]

I am fan of the ideas of Microsoft Surface line and the whole trinity of Phone + Tablet + Desktop/Laptop.
But phone were bad because Metro design didn't fit for most applications and failed that why. Great for SMS, Phone and web browsing but that was it.
The Surface tablet has failed, it just doesn't work as wanted. The Windows 10 doesn't do anything well in that case, because the Metro side failed.
The Laptop and Desktop side works with the mouse and keyboard, but even Microsoft Surface has failed in that. That device is terrible laptop replacement, not a replacement for a desktop and just doesn't work!

Microsoft really should just pull their shit together and focus to laptop and desktop use where the work is done.
The Surface was nice idea, but doesn't work with the windowing environment at all as tablet or so on. The Pen works great for artists and designers, but not for others.

The Surface Studio is nice idea, bad concept. Just remove the computer part and put it as display out for 1200 price tag and it will sell very well. Even Dell is in good track with this one. But remember, Surface Studio and Dell idea are DESKTOP ideas... thats why they work so well!

Microsoft says?

[PoopJuggler]

Of course they do.

I might jump to the next Surface

[xtal]

It's gotten good; the pencil on the iPad Pro is something I've waited a very long time for, if Microsoft can get it's performance close I'll probably go. I need a real computer and iOS is horribly handicapped (no xcode). The surface has a real keyboard, the iPad pro is a silicone joke.

OS wise,it matters less than it used to; I don't care, and I always have to have a windows machine for any type of 3D work,modelling, or VR.

This is how the system is supposed to work.. competition.

Here's hoping Apple gets it together. I love my phone, but it seems Apple is now a phone company and not a computer company. They don't have a single computer that can even pretend to run a virtual reality setup.

Dumb. Apple the Phone Company. That's what has happened. Sad.

Re:I might jump to the next Surface

[ruir]

FuckFace not thank you

Re:I might jump to the next Surface

[TheFakeTimCook]

It's gotten good; the pencil on the iPad Pro is something I've waited a very long time for, if Microsoft can get it's performance close I'll probably go. I need a real computer and iOS is horribly handicapped (no xcode). The surface has a real keyboard, the iPad pro is a silicone joke.

OS wise,it matters less than it used to; I don't care, and I always have to have a windows machine for any type of 3D work,modelling, or VR.

This is how the system is supposed to work.. competition.

Here's hoping Apple gets it together. I love my phone, but it seems Apple is now a phone company and not a computer company. They don't have a single computer that can even pretend to run a virtual reality setup.

Dumb. Apple the Phone Company. That's what has happened. Sad.

Bullshit.

Mac is Dead

[Anonymous Coward]

The Mac is dead. The hardware engineers have all been placed in charge of designing iOS devices and watchstraps, and the software engineers are all busy making emoji.

It's a shame the company is so poor that they can't afford to hire some additional engineers to work on computers.

Can't wait for that Apple car though... I'm so glad they abandoned their core mission of designing computers to get into the niche high-end electric automobile business.

Dear Slashdot

[DontBeAMoran]

Enough with the huge content-wide ads that blocks the content with its "static: top" position, please!

Re:Dear Slashdot

[Anonymous Coward]

http://winhelp2002.mvps.org/hosts.htm

What's a "Mac" ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Seriously, the last Mac I lusted over was the Color Classic II (last weekend at a surplus warehouse) .. Everybody's got an all-in-one-now..

That donut hole shaped thing (Mac Pro?) was sort of unbelievable at the time, but that was in like 2008? ..and as far as I can tell they are still selling it, and still demanding a -lot- of cash for the same hardware.

Stacking up the wins

[PingSpike]

They're also stomping the shit out of Amiga.

Re:Stacking up the wins

[neo-mkrey]

Thanks a lot for the coffee I just spewed on my monitor.

Re:Stacking up the wins

[Anonymous Coward]

You should see what they are doing to Atari.....

Re:Stacking up the wins

[ilsaloving]

It is impressive. Not only that, they've even absolutely crushed ColecoVision!

They're really on a tear!

Nothing to do with Windows

[Anonymous Coward]

This has nothing to do with Windows and everything to do with Macs shipping with crap hardware @ premium prices.

Re:Nothing to do with Windows

[ruir]

If you think they are shipping @ premium prices, come to Portugal, Spain or the UK, and pay to the fuckers more 600 USD for exactly the same device. And then the fuckers wonder why they are not selling.

Let them dream.

[Darkness Of Course]

Nobody really cares about MSFT in a high end system. The W10 cost is fairly high, not the money, the cost to their privacy. Many enterprise customers have a solution but every one else with a high end system gets ripped off by MSFT and their "selling everything about you to anyone" business model is counter productive. Not even mentioning them putting ads on your desktop. A high end system is more likely a game system. The only choice is MSFT for well over half the games. Depending on the actual market there are limitations in professional software that rely heavily on W*, so the purchase is driven by requirements, not desires. Also, how is this different than the otherwise noted bit of a pip in the PC market as eventually even the older high end systems need replacement? Answer: same old, same old. Any bump in the PC market affects W* sales and MSFT will use it as evidence that they are winning. Something, whatever, a war with apple for the mac sales? Sure, whatever lies float your silly little boat, MSFT.

Re:Not so much winning as simply not failing as ha

[TheFakeTimCook]

Microsoft is only shooting itself in the foot while its opponents over at apple have somehow lodged their guns into their own rectums. Its not so much that microsoft is winning the battle, as apple is just failing worse.

Oh, are they now?

ridiculous article

[Anonymous Coward]

The article is crap. Most of it seems like pure editorializing by the author. The premise the author seems to build on is actually contained in the summary:

Microsofts licensing business, which sells Windows to third-party PC makers, was up 5 percent last quarter, confirmed CFO Amy Hood during an earnings call on Thursday. The “non-pro” (consumer) market grew 5 percent, beating the overall decline of the PC industry.

“Our partner ecosystem continued to see growth and share gains in the Windows premium device category,” Hood continued.

If you read this quote, you will notice that nowhere Apple is mentioned. I think the story from Ars Technica about Microsoft earnings is based upon the same source material. If you feel like reading it, funnily enough, you will not be able to find a single mention of the words "Apple" or "Mac" in it.

One crucial difference

[SmaryJerry]

Microsoft or rather windows OS PCs have been winning the high end market forever. Apple has been winning the high price PC market with inferior techchnology, besides monitors, for years. Now you can get a good quality 4K monitor for a PC as well, Apple has lost its primary advantage.

Apple being retarded != MS superiority

[ogdenk]

Apple's biggest issues IMHO....

1.) Assuming pro users would buy a souped-up Macbook Air with no ability to upgrade RAM or storage.

2.) Assuming pro users will only want pen and touch support in a locked-down consumer appliance that's not suited for content creation. We want a Macbook tablet/2-in-1.... preferably with SO-DIMM slots and replaceable SSD. The iOS and Mac teams should not worry about "competing" with each other.

3.) Assuming pro users are OK with dated CPU and weaker GPU's compared to cheaper Winblows machines.

I'm actually OK with USB-C and needing dongles in the short-term (though I want magsafe back). I just want a modern capable machine that can be upgraded and the ability to use pen and touch. And for them trying to slowly lock people into the Mac App Store.

Win by playing until nobody else cares

[T.E.D.]

Yeah, but the PC market is shrinking, and Apple doesn't even get most of their own revenue from it anymore.

I'm picturing a jock finally getting his last opponent out after the most epic dodgeball game ever, not noticing the guy wasn't even really trying. He proceeds to go through the elaborate victory celebration, complete with rehearsed descriptions of how awesome he is, and what losers everyone else is, only to turn around and realize everyone else has already gone on to Algebra next class. He sucks at Algebra, and he's now late.

Re:Not so much winning as simply not failing as ha

[gweihir]

Indeed.

Meh

[whitlocktj]

If I was going to buy a PC these days it would be either a Dell or System76 PC running Ubuntu, and then I'd simply install Cinnamon and get rid of Unity.

Re:Meh

[Anonymous Coward]

If I was going to buy a PC these days it would be either a Dell or System76 PC running Ubuntu, and then I'd simply install Cinnamon and get rid of Unity.

I wouldn't touch a Dell, not because of the hardware, but because the company behind it has displayed only incompetence in every interaction I've had with them over the past 5 years.

Re:Meh

[Anonymous Coward]

TrueOS without systemd... https://www.trueos.org/

Re:Not so much winning as simply not failing as ha

[vux984]

Yes they are.
I replied on the other thread.

in the same boat

[beckett]

why don't you Make Your Macbook Pro Again?

I am in the same boat; i use OSX and have been looking for a replacement for my 2011 MBP. I think this is the closest i'll come to getting an upgrade without switching to a windows platform. still having a hard time with soldered ram and ssds though. maybe apple will come to their senses in the near future, and think about prioritizing function over form in the future.

Re:in the same boat

[wwphx]

I'm in a similar boat. I have a 2011 MBP with 16 gig of memory, I'm planning on putting in a 1 TB SSD when I get another job. What I would like to do is get the last model before everything got soldered/glued in (2013? 2014?) and hope that I can keep that ticking. Possibly buy two of them and maybe alternate using them a year at a time, pulling the battery from the one that's in temporary retirement.

Re:in the same boat

[Shirley Marquez]

Clever idea. And I like the slick little thing on the right side that serves as the interconnect; it blends in well enough that I missed it on my first look. But it doesn't provide the missing RAM or a GPU that's good enough for VR.

We're gonna win so big, your beachball...

[Anonymous Coward]

...is gonna spin!

Excuses, excuses.

[westlake]

Yeah, it's a little hard to "sell" something for free and compete with the $$ marketing campaigns of major closed-source companies

That doesn't explain why Linux distributions haven't been able to forge successful partnerships with OEMs and retailers which do have brand name recognition and big-budget advertsing campaigns.

Can't even find Refurbs anymore

[ilsaloving]

As another datapoint to how badly Apple is pissing people off... I periodically look at the refurb lists that Apple offers. For the first time ever, almost their entire stock of refurbs is gone. Literally nothing left except for a couple of base model 11" Airs.

It isn't rocket science when people preferentially buy last years refurbs to "superior" current gen products, to conclude that the current gen products are crap.

Apple losing

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft isn't winning this contest. Apple is losing by offering such a limited and for many an unappealing set of computers. They certainly don't have one I would want to buy.

Make the Macbook Pro again

[ilsaloving]

I literally just came across this and thought it worth mentioning...

http://blog.macsales.com/39345...

It's literally a base that attaches to a 2016 MBP that gives you everything that the MBP should have included in the first place.

Hush now

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't boast too loudly. We don't want to suffer through anymore antitrust litigation.

How can this make sense?

[martinfb]

How can this make sense?

Many long-time Mac users have been somewhat disappointed with Apple's most recent releases, which come with big changes that not everyone is willing to embrace.

Sure seems like MS makes regular, big changes. What a rude suprise for those 'migrating' Apple enthusiasts!

But ...

[Anonymous Coward]

... Apple stopped competing in the high end computer segment years ago. Something to do with courage.

Dell manipulation

[Futurepower(R)]

A long time ago, a Dell desktop power supply failed. The power supply had a unusual shape, so only a Dell power supply would fit. Dell charged $200 for the supply.

Recently, we've been buying very reliable supplies for $30.

PCs are the last war which is already over

[Anonymous Coward]

This is kind of sad-funny because this is fighting over scrapes.

Financially Wintel sales are still in decline while Apple Mac sales are still growing slowly. So who's really "winning". Of course, Microsoft uses "market share" as the metric but if you are losing money on every sale of that dominant market share while your competitor is living on smaller share but 50-100% margins on combined HW/SW, who's really "winning" and who's actually losing.

This is marketing propaganda fluff not based on actual facts or on facts that actually matter!

DUH!

[MerlTurkin]

Well Tim Cook is trying to kill off Macs. This idiot needs to be fired. I wouldn't be surprised if they sell off the Mac division. They don't give to fecal lumps about Macs anymore.

No System76 smaller tha 14"

[tepples]

System76's laptop page doesn't offer anything smaller than the 14 inch Lemur.

Errm, when they say "business was up"---

[Anonymous Coward]

When they say "business was up", do they mean numbers of revenue? Because if they mean revenue - then Apple had them beat with a 7% increase in Mac revenue.

Or put another way: Microsoft proudly announces their win in the consumer PC space - while Apple wins over professionals.