Microsoft Seeks Trump Order Exemption for Workers With Visas (bloomberg.com)

Microsoft is asking U.S. officials to grant exceptions for law-abiding, visa-holding workers and students from President Donald Trump's immigration order, channeling the outrage expressed by many in the technology industry with a proposed solution. From a report: Such individuals are low-risk -- having already undergone a rigorous vetting process -- and face immediate hardship as a result of last week's order, Microsoft President and Chief Legal Officer Brad Smith said in a letter Thursday to the secretaries of State and Homeland Security. Smith said he believes the two officials are empowered to take the necessary steps to allow certain people entry into the country. The exemptions sought would cover workers with visas sponsored by U.S.-based companies and students with ones obtained via a U.S.-based school.

Comments

Microsoft is already great.

[Anonymous Coward]

No need for Trump to help.

Re:Microsoft is already great.

[cayenne8]

Err...I believe there was a clarification yesterday ( maybe from the State Dept?) that said green card holders were not part of the temporary halt of immigration from those 7 countries into the US.

Re:Microsoft is already great.

[dgatwood]

Err...I believe there was a clarification yesterday ( maybe from the State Dept?) that said green card holders were not part of the temporary halt of immigration from those 7 countries into the US.

Green cards are not visas. The two are completely unrelated.

A green card is a non-expiring, permanent resident work permit. It confers a right to permanent residency within the U.S., and provides a path to citizenship.

A visa provides temporary entry into the U.S. for various purposes, including tourism, work, education, etc. You've probably heard of some of the work visas, such as H-1B, H-2B, L-1A, L-1B, R-1, etc. There are also specific types of student visas, such as F-1, J-1, and M-1. Some visas allow you to leave and reenter the country, e.g. F-1 and J-1. Some allow you to work, e.g. H*, L*, R*, and J-1. And some just let you be a tourist, e.g. B-1, B-2, etc.

Allowing green card holders to come back to the U.S. is basically unavoidable. They're legal residents of the United States with homes, families, etc. That's also true for many of the visa types, but those folks are currently screwed, which is nothing short of appalling. And it is particularly heinous for students whose schools have a January term (and who thus took the month of January as an extended vacation) who are now trapped outside the country, unable to return to school, potentially losing scholarships, etc., all because our President doesn't know the difference between a green card, a visa, and refugee status admission.

Re:Microsoft is already great.

[brantondaveperson]

It is truly astonishing the extent to which this type of uncertainty about your country's own laws has become normalised - and so quickly too. In a stable Democracy, the stability of law is incredibly important. Knowing what you are, and are not, permitted to do - and being able to have enormous confidence that tomorrow the situation will be unchanged - is fundamental. And yet, here is the United States, in which the population is actually in the position of not knowing whether or not a particular person is permitted into their country - despite their being in possession of their "papers".

The whole pantomime has several different aims. Firstly we have Trump separating his supporters from his foes, and dealing with these discovered enemies swiftly. Secondly, the presidential decree itself, which is deliberately over-reached, so that it may be dialled back to the position they really want, and be made to appear reasonable. And of course, thirdly, to create the situation described above. To create uncertainty in the law itself, and thus keep a population fearful of what they might not be allowed to do tomorrow. Controlling a population is much easier if they're never quite sure of what their rights are.

Though the US has a deeply unhealthy relationship with firearms, it might yet pull itself out of this apparent nose-dive into a form of corporate totalitarianism by forming a decent citizens army, and dealing with these people in the only way that they deserve.

Good luck.

Re:Microsoft is already great.

[brantondaveperson]

Allowing green card holders to come back to the U.S. is basically unavoidable.

Laws are just people doing things that they believe are, well, the laws. Nothing is unavoidable in that sense. All you have to do is change what the people are doing, and those greed card holders can be kept out. This executive order is basically unlawful for a large number of different reasons, but that doesn't matter, because already your laws are becoming fluid.

Re: Microsoft is already great.

[omkhar]

Green cards do have expirations, they typically need to be renewed every 10 years.

Re:Microsoft is already great.

[Anonymous Coward]

Err...I believe there was a clarification yesterday ( maybe from the State Dept?) that said green card holders were not part of the temporary halt of immigration from those 7 countries into the US.

Green cards are not visas. The two are completely unrelated.

A green card is a non-expiring, permanent resident work permit. It confers a right to permanent residency within the U.S., and provides a path to citizenship.

A visa provides temporary entry into the U.S. for various purposes, including tourism, work, education, etc. You've probably heard of some of the work visas, such as H-1B, H-2B, L-1A, L-1B, R-1, etc. There are also specific types of student visas, such as F-1, J-1, and M-1. Some visas allow you to leave and reenter the country, e.g. F-1 and J-1. Some allow you to work, e.g. H*, L*, R*, and J-1. And some just let you be a tourist, e.g. B-1, B-2, etc.

Allowing green card holders to come back to the U.S. is basically unavoidable. They're legal residents of the United States with homes, families, etc. That's also true for many of the visa types, but those folks are currently screwed, which is nothing short of appalling. And it is particularly heinous for students whose schools have a January term (and who thus took the month of January as an extended vacation) who are now trapped outside the country, unable to return to school, potentially losing scholarships, etc., all because our President doesn't know the difference between a green card, a visa, and refugee status admission.

I have had first-hand experience with how the American immigration system works, and a quick Google search suggests to me that my knowledge is still current. I feel compelled to address dgatwood's post because it is dangerously misleading for green card holders.

If you are a green card holder, you cannot stay abroad indefinitely. There is a requirement for any trip abroad to be 180 days max, and even then the trip must be "temporary" (which is vaguely defined). For those who aren't familiar with the American immigration system, I should point out that officials at the border have enormous discretion in the decisions they make (this long predates 9/11), even when your papers are all in order and you have legal advice that you are doing everything the right way.

Please vote this comment up so that green card holders are not misled into making a terrible mistake from thinking that the law makes guarantees that it does not.

Re: Microsoft is already great.

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you suggesting we do something to those stupid indo-chimps with phony degrees from jungle "universities", and with phony green cards awarded to those monkeys by a lobby of rich buttholes who need slave labor replenished?

You talk like chiken, no substance.
I suggest complete extermination of those smelly indo-chimps and turning jobs back to american families.

AMERICA FIRST

Re:Microsoft is already great.

[houghi]

A green card is a non-expiring, permanent resident work permit. It confers a right to permanent residency within the U.S., and provides a path to citizenship.

Is there a specific reason as to why the citizenship part is important? The reason I ask is that I have seen it several times and I do not see it as an essential part as a European.
My parents and sister have 4 different nationalities and we live in 3 different countries and non in the country that is our nationality.
My sisters kids are not even born in the country of their nationality as they took the nationality of the mother and not the father. (Parents are still happy together) and don't even speak the language of their nationality.

We all pay the same taxes as others in the country we live in. We have the same rights as others have. To become a national of the country I live in now I would have to take a lot of time and a lot of effort for basically replacing my passport and ID.

That is just me. Others will want, for various reason, get the nationality of the country they live in. However I would never assume that somebody who gets official papers to stay in the country is a way to get the nationality (although technically correct).

For those wondering: I do not care about my official nationality. It is a piece of paper, nothing more, nothing less. If you have 4 nationalities inside your direct family, being proud of that becomes a bit silly.

Re:Microsoft is already great.

[wyHunter]

Actually, Green Card holders do NOT have to become citizens - they are permanent residents. It's just that many do.

Re: Microsoft is already great.

[Anonymous Coward]

The executive order listed several visa types as exclusions, and even then it called out new visas. If a person already had entry arranged, it wouldn't affect them. I dont blame MS or any company for trying to keep their talent, and obviously a sweeping halt like this affects them so they are right to raise the issue. Calling halt to rearrange the deck chairs isn't exactly the end of the world, so the outrage is a little too much.

Re:Microsoft is already great.

[MooseMiester]

Respectfully, Sir, you have it all wrong. What you are seeing is a strategy designed to throw the left into a howling, immature, tizzy that eventually tires out the supporters and stems the flow of donations. It's working spectacularly, and it's brilliant.

If you want to defeat the left, it's really simple:

Stop the flow of money from the left's money laundering operation: Federal Workers Union, Teachers Union, Workers Union. First thing he did was meet with Union leaders.

Break up the special interest groups that reliably vote left: Blacks, Hispanics, Women, LGBT. More Blacks voted for Trump than have voted for a Republican in a long time, more women voted...

Third, and MOST IMPORTANT screw up the left's biggest weapon: Emotionally charged righteous indignation. This is what gets people to send money. Every opponent of the left is branded a racist, xenophobic, insane, un-educated, country bumpkin, radical, dangerous for America that MUST BE STOPPED send money today... Well, if you create a new righteously indignant moment EVERY DAY and all the protesting, wailing, and howling Accomplishes Nothing, then the money, it will stop flowing.

It's brilliant,

It's not about risk...

[Anonymous Coward]

This is about Micro$oft short changing American citizens on jobs by importing and hiring cheaper labor from other countries. Simple as that.

Re:It's not about risk...

[BuckaBooBob]

They should be subject to the 150,000$ a year if they want to keep them... after all there are only 2 arguments that could be made..

1) They wanted cheap labor and hired a foreign worker instead of an american because they could pay them less.

2) They found a highly skilled foreigner that has a unmatched skill set they could find in america.

Both problems are solved with paying that worker 150,000$ a year... They wont keep around someone at that pay rate that isn't worth it. and if they are that good... they should be able to stay.

Re:It's not about risk...

[OhPlz]

Or they only have offices in areas where American workers don't want to relocate to, whereas imported labor will agree to work anywhere in the country.

Re:It's not about risk...

[bluefoxlucid]

If we pull Men's and Boys's Cotton Shorts and Trousers manufacture to American factories from China, a few things will happen depending on a few factors.

If we pay the factory workers more than $18/hr, we'll lose American jobs. There will be fewer American jobs in total. This is because the ability of Americans to buy MBCST decreases thanks to the price increasing. As the wage increases, the price increases; and as the price increases, fewer factory jobs are created and more infrastructure jobs (shipping, retail, etc.) are lost.

If we pay the factory workers less than $18/hr, we'll gain total American jobs for the same reason.

The more we pay the American factory workers, the greater the increase in total hours Americans must work to pay for MBCST. That is to say: Americans become poorer. The median wage today is $27/hr, and the average cost of a pair of MBCST is 0.55 labor hours at $27/hr. If we pay the factory workers $21/hr, then the average cost to the median American income is 1.87 hours; and if we pay them $8.25/hr (minimum wage), the average cost is 0.93 hours.

This works inversely for the factory workers themselves: the less we pay them, the poorer they are. That should be obvious; the only thing worth indicating here is that raising factory worker pay takes the same American monetary spending power (amount of dollars spendable) and concentrates it into fewer hands (number of workers receiving that money). At current, a $21/hr worker pays 0.71 hours for a pair of MBCST; if they were made by $21/hr factory workers, the factory workers would pay 2.4 hours per pair. Likewise, an $8.25/hr worker pays 1.81 hours today for a pair of MBCST; if we pay the factory workers $8.25/hr, then they will pay 3.03 hours per pair.

Of final note: it costs under $1,300 to import a 40-foot shipping container from China, which carries 20,000 pairs of trousers. That's 6.5 cents per pair. The average cost of the trousers at import is $6.12; the average retail price is $14.97. Cashiers perform 998 scans per hour on average--at minimum wage, 0.83 cents per item. Nearly half the ultimate cost of trousers is shipping; and in general the businesses make around a 10% overall profit margin (gross margins are higher than real profit margins because they exclude the cost of running the business itself), so about 90% of the price is generally the actual cost. That means we're not going to save a damned thing on shipping over the water.

Re:It's not about risk...

[pushing-robot]

Result 1: American company hires more American workers, pays them good wages, everybody lives happily ever after.
Result 2: American company hires more American workers, pays them good wages, costs go up, company can't compete with Chinese competitor, shuts down, eliminates many more jobs than H-1Bs.
Result 3: American company open foreign campus, shuts down American campus, eliminates many more jobs than H-1Bs.

Things like H-1Bs and outsourcing and illegal immigration are all just symptoms of wealth imbalance in the world. They're like relief valves that equalize pressure between hot and cold economies. Closing them without addressing the underlying issues may not have pleasant results.

Re:It's not about risk...

[beelsebob]

Knowing how much companies like Microsoft, Apple and Google etc pay H1Bs, I would bet reasonably heavily that all of these people already earn over $150k.

Microsoft, Apple and Google (and all the other big tech companies) are not the ones you care about re problem 1 - that's infosys and tata. They're dealing with problem 2, and already applying your solution.

What Microsoft is saying is "uhhh, we have guys that do awesome work who are from Iran/Syria/Somalia/..., we need them to carry on doing that awesome work".

Re:It's not about risk...

[fiannaFailMan]

This is about Micro$oft short changing American citizens on jobs by importing and hiring cheaper labor from other countries. Simple as that.

Loathe as I am to feed an AC troll, I suspect that MS get their foreign-born workforce from more locations than just the seven countries banned by Trump.

Re:It's not about risk...

[Anonymous Coward]

With 99.99% of the work being 100% telecommute reachable, that "location restriction" is a false flag. Again to try and force the field to only those that would apply and work in cardboard boxes lining the gravel-road used as offices.

Re:It's not about risk...

[geekmux]

Or they only have offices in areas where American workers don't want to relocate to, whereas imported labor will agree to work anywhere in the country.

Given the field we're talking about here, and the ability for tech workers within that field to work remotely (as in wherever they want to call home), that whole office locale excuse is a rather weak one.

Hell, it's 2017. Companies don't have much of an excuse to not support remote work regardless of the field.

Re:It's not about risk...

[OhPlz]

I know a lot of people that don't want to telecommute. There's value on having your team nearby and having the ability to work together in person.

Re:It's not about risk...

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course! Their CEO started off life as an H1-B himself.

Now he will not rest until all of his billion-plus relatives back in the old country are on the Microsoft payroll (at absolute rock bottom prices!)

Re:It's not about risk...

[RavenLrD20k]

Or maybe the CEO and other Executives of MBCST could figure out how to live on $16 Million per year instead of $20 Million per year to give the employees an extra $5-10 an hour without having to raise the product cost or sacrifice the ever precious Profit Margin. Hell, maybe sacrifice some of that profit margin if it's really wide and they won't have to take as much of a pay cut if at all.

Seriously... what the hell is so wrong with cutting some of the huge numbers at the top by 10 to 20% to increase the meager numbers at the bottom? Executives would rather pile drive their companies into the ground than take let one red cent fall out of their pockets. Some of these guys make more money during a sneeze than I make in a quarter, and they can't abide their workers getting more than 5.15/hr (Georgia minimum wage provided a position falls outside of the federal FLSA).

Re:It's not about risk...

[fluffernutter]

....if you're a sociopathic diva who likes to get a lot of attention.

Re:It's not about risk...

[fluffernutter]

You don't factor in the fact that the boys cotton shorts made in the US will likely last a lot longer and most of the cost of having local workers will be recovered. Chinese factories use the thinnest cheapest fabrics they can. I've seen a big change in the quality of clothing in my life time. So we will buy something for more but it will last longer. Besides, who says we need to put as much labor into clothes. Maybe simpler easier to make clothes such as rugby pants become more fashionable, rather than blue jeans with all the stitches and rivets. There are a whole hell of a lot more factors to consider than you are taking into account.

Re:It's not about risk...

[Anonymous Coward]

Cutting executive pay to $0 would have almost no impact on the average salary of a large company. $16M divided by 10k employees is under $70/pay check.

Re:It's not about risk...

[lgw]

Come back when you stop sucking at math.

Re:It's not about risk...

[Maxo-Texas]

I don't know about microsoft but our company used infosys and paid they billed at $60 per hour onshore and $30 per hour off shore while U.S. resources making under $100,000 billed at $90 per hour.

Infosys overpromised and under delivered. Anyone could see converting to all 6 SAP disciplines at the same time was impossible but the company fired two people who pointed that out and everyone shut up. 5 years later, the conversion was cancelled and is being rolled back. Over 1.5 billion dollars lost.

Re:It's not about risk...

[Billly Gates]

The CEO's are not getting that money.

The goal of a corporation is to raise the share price. No else. IT MUST GO UP every quarter FOREVER or the CEO is fired. Sure as CHina grows they buy more but you need to keep cutting costs in commodities like IT and workers to make Wall Street happy

Re:It's not about risk...

[lgw]

Chinese factories use the thinnest cheapest fabrics they can.

Chinese factories use exactly what they're told to. Manufacturing in China, and using literally cheap ass fabric, are both ways that the cost is reduced. Unrelated ways. China would happily use better fabric, they don't care, they just charge the US company appropriately. There's no reason to think the US company would pay for better fabric just because i stuff is made here.

Re:It's not about risk...

[zlives]

then explain why they need visas anyway? they could be working from any part of the world...

Re:It's not about risk...

[Dan East]

You're forgetting automation. Automation currently is not as cheap for some things as the non-sustainable dirt-cheap labor in countries like China, but we would automate production of many, many things as soon is it was cost effective. MBCST production could be quite an automated process. Then we'd have big factories in the US, the roofs of which would be covered in solar panels generating the power to operate the equipment, churning out products that no normal human would want to spend mind-numbing, totally unfulfilling hours doing.

Isn't that what we want as a society? What percentage of our population was involved in food production (as in farming / agricultural) a mere 100 years ago compared to today? That portion of the population now has a better education and (hopefully) better jobs doing more fulfilling and rewarding work, than the brute force manual labor that is now done by machine.

Why would we want Americans doing the kinds of jobs done in China right now, regardless of how much money they make ($18 an hour or whatever)? Imagine if most of the money going to China in trade deficit was instead invested back into this country, for more education, better healthcare, higher wages in the existing jobs... We have the technology to make the world a much better place, but due to the low-cost (and essentially slave-labor) production in some foreign countries, we don't bother investing in it. How in the world is that a good thing? Let's pay the price now and absolve ourselves of our reliance on a propped up world economy based on large masses of repressed people earning next to nothing to perform mundane tasks.

Re:It's not about risk...

[fluffernutter]

It's a race to the bottom. Maybe with more money in the nation and in the hands of consumers it begins to sustain itself.

Re:It's not about risk...

[Sparowl]

CEO pay/compensation is generally in a millions, and the double digit millions are apparently reachable.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06...

That talks about CEO pay, and it's from 2013. Even then, the median CEO pay for the top 200 companies in the country was $15 mil.

Probably much more today, seeing as how the growth rate was through the roof.

Re:It's not about risk...

[Billly Gates]

Of course they raised the share price and made shareholders and banks rich. THe banks give them a tiny piece of the cut back in the form of a bonus for giving them extra money each quarter

Re:It's not about risk...

[Anonymous Coward]

Look at the reports, CEO's are getting the money. And usually it doesn't matter if the stock does well or not, they still get paid! All you have to do is look at who sets the executive compensation packages, the Board of Directors. Who makes up most boards? Other CEOs and former CEOs. It a great big circle jerk, and who cares how well the company does.

Re:It's not about risk...

[gravewax]

MS don't tend to hire cheap labour, if they are bringing them in on H1B's then they will have very specific expertise and are probably already on $150k+ a year anyway. there are plenty of specialist areas that would be near impossible to source from the US, especially around localisation and legal for the respective countries, MS are a global company.

Re: It's not about risk...

[Anonymous Coward]

And who the fuck are you, smelly indo-chimp?

Get the fuck out my country, chimp.

Re: It's not about risk...

[Anonymous Coward]

Not lost. Stolen by smelly indo-chimps.
Trump has to make these scammers accountable for everything they stole from american families, and double.
Then exterminate all scammers indo-chimps for good.

Re: It's not about risk...

[Anonymous Coward]

You are delusional. Most indo-chimps at Monkeyshit Corp are scammers with phony degrees from their jungle village "universities".

Only complete idiot would trust a backward medieval smelly monkey to have any skill that applies to civilized world.

Well, that civilized world will slip back to mud tganks to fucks at Monkeyshit Corp.

Re:It's not about risk...

[Anonymous Coward]

Whenever you outsource manufacturing, the manufacturer wants to use the cheapest materials. You you specify that a part needs to be made from 1mm +/- 0.1mm PVC; they use 0.9mm recycled PVC. You specify that a fabric needs to red and a poly/cotton blend, they will find the cheapest red poly/cotton, poly or cotton that they can get away with. It's just good business for them, and they don't care if 10% fail and need to be replaced; they have no brand image to tarnish, and no shortage of people wanting cheap shit yesterday should you choose to go elsewhere with your next order.

Whilst there is the same temptation to cheap out on materials in western firms, if you're spending $10/unit on labor, saving a couple of cents on materials is probably not worth the hassle of a return/faulty product or of losing a contract that might be hard to replace in a market flooded with cheaper competitors. Also, western companies tend to have to meet regulations (product safety, labelling, quality, fitness-for-sale) that aren't always de rigueur in China, for example, so exceptions would be rare, whereas when dealing with countries with little to no regulation, getting them up to standard is sometimes an uphill battle.

Whilst it's definitely possible to get a quality product manufactured in low-wage countries, and a shitty product from high-wage countries, the economics mean that it's going to tend to be the other way around.

Re:It's not about risk...

[bluefoxlucid]

Or maybe the CEO and other Executives of MBCST could figure out how to live on $16 Million per year instead of $20 Million per year to give the employees an extra $5-10 an hour without having to raise the product cost or sacrifice the ever precious Profit Margin.

So CEOs and other executives get a number of compensations.

Firstly, they get your basic Cash compensations, which are salary and bonuses; these are taken from company revenue, just like all salary. Executives pay full income tax on these.

Executives also get stock and stock options as compensation. Stock issuance--whether as a compensation or as a result of exercising an option--is considered income at then-current market value. If a CEO gets 100,000 shares of stock issued at $10/share, that's $1M and is taxed as $1M of income; if he gets an option for 100,000 shares, it's not any actual income until it's exercised, at which point it's income at value of stock. To pay these taxes, the executive must use part of his cash compensation or sell some of the stock immediately.

When a stockholder sells stock, income is based on time. Shares held less than 1 year are direct income: the difference between the purchase (in this case, issuance) price and the sale price is income, taxed as such. Shares held more than 1 year are considered capital gains: the difference in purchase and sale price is taxed at 15%. That means a CEO issued $1M of stock pays $396,000 in taxes; then, 2 years later when he sells it for $1.2M, he pays 15% on $200,000--another $30,000. For the full $1.2M, he pays $426,000 in that scenario (about 35.5%).

Stock issuance devalues stock in the market. That is: if you hold Apple stock and Apple issues more AAPL to its executives, the sale price of your AAPL holdings reflects a slightly-lower value. The fluctuation is typically minor: shave a tenth of a penny off 250 million shares and you have $25 million. This bulk stock compensation allows the company to essentially pay its executives by raiding the retirement accounts and investment portfolios of everyone in the world.

Seriously... what the hell is so wrong with cutting some of the huge numbers at the top by 10 to 20% to increase the meager numbers at the bottom?

So Steve Ells makes $1,526,000 in salary and no bonus as the CEO of Chipotle, circa 2015; he got most of his compensation in stocks ($12M value).

Chipotle has 45,200 employees. $1,526,000 divided up among them is $33.76/year, or 1.69 cents per hour.

Ford has 199,000 employees as of 2016. CEO Mark Fields got $5,215,000 cash compensation or 1.31 cents per employee per hour ($26.20/year per employee); Executive Chairman William Clay Ford Jr. got $2,990,000 cash compensation or 0.75 cents per employee per hour ($15.03/year). The other executives each received less in cash compensation. Together, they could pitch all their salaries and bonuses in to raise all Ford employee wages by 4 cents per hour.

Try it. See how much it matters.

Or maybe the CEO and other Executives of MBCST could figure out how to live on $16 Million per year instead of $20 Million per year to give the employees an extra $5-10 an hour without having to raise the product cost

It can't be done. Corporate profit margins are generally under a 10% average, with risk sometimes making this comical (e.g. a large pharmaceutical company will make 49% profits one year and -27% another year, averaging an astounding 14% over 10 years, or sometimes as low as a 7% 10-year average--the extremely-high gross profit margins let them build up cash holdings in the +50%-profit years to survive the -30%-loss years).

For MBCST, paying the American workers a minimum wage actually costs more than the current sale price of (Chinese-made) trousers in total. If they don't raise prices with the wage, they won't have the money to write paychecks for their minimum-wage workers--that is to say,

Re:It's not about risk...

[bluefoxlucid]

Actually, the exact type of fabric and even its sourcing can be specified by the client ordering the manufacture. I've seen Chinese factories make some of the highest-quality goods on the planet; I've also seen them make the cheapest crap because somebody wanted "a can-opener" that will fit into the $2 bargain bin.

most of the cost of having local workers will be recovered

This is a meaningless statement.

Besides, who says we need to put as much labor into clothes. Maybe simpler easier to make clothes such as rugby pants become more fashionable, rather than blue jeans with all the stitches and rivets.

i.e. we'll get poorer and have to buy lower-quality goods instead of the luxuries we've come to enjoy.

Re:It's not about risk...

[bluefoxlucid]

You're forgetting automation. Automation currently is not as cheap for some things as the non-sustainable dirt-cheap labor in countries like China, but we would automate production of many, many things as soon is it was cost effective.

You suggest that automation would still be a higher-wages-paid-in-total process than the current Chinese labor market. This isn't any different.

Isn't that what we want as a society?

What we want as a society is a maximization of buying power. "Economy" is about "economizing", which means using the means you have to achieve the greatest amount of ends. It's not about having a median income of $50,000 or $80,000, or a given minimum wage, or whatever else people yammer about today; it's about what your 40-hours of work actually buys. If you get paid $10,000/week working 60 hours and that's barely enough to afford a 600sqft apartment and the cheapest food you can get, you're still poor.

Technical progress is the continuous march toward a reduction of labor. As you say: we reduce the number of people (really, the number of hours) spent to produce a thing, and those people produce another thing. As a result, we pay less in wages for the thing: $10/hr paid for 10 hours of work is more than $10/hr paid for 5 hours of work. If people are still making $10/hr, it would appear they can buy twice as much stuff if we only employ half as many people to make it.

That reduction isn't about money; money is what you get by wage. In truth, we won't let a $20 chair become a $10 chair; we'll issue more money as chairs become cheaper. Your wage goes from $10/hr to $20/hr, and that chair stays a $20 chair; at the same time, you cease working 2 hours to buy a chair, and instead work only 1 hour to buy that same chair. (Really, we also add a 2% inflation rate, so your wage goes up more than that--but so does the price of a chair, so it's still spending 1 hour instead of 2; you're not getting rich off inflation.)

Trade and technical progress are what create those reductions and allow our labor to exchange for more goods.

Let's pay the price now and absolve ourselves of our reliance on a propped up world economy based on large masses of repressed people earning next to nothing to perform mundane tasks.

We have a labor advantage over these people: the cost of a Chinese worker is $3.20/hr including social insurances (like our Social Security taxes, unemployment, etc.). That means our minimum-wage workers at $8.25 work 1 hour and can induce the labor of 2.58 hours of a Chinese worker through our purchasing ability.

What do you think will happen to the Chinese worker's ability to eat if we stop buying things from them?

Even if we raised the Chinese worker's wage, that just means we can exchange our labor for less of their labor. Increase their wages by 50% and suddenly 1/3 of the portion of their workforce doing anything supporting their export markets become terminally unemployed.

It all sounds good to absolve ourselves of our position over another, powerless person; the problem is our position over them is that we feed them and force them to labor, and our moral high road is to send them naked into the cold to starve and die.

The Chinese wage has actually increased over the past 10 years--nearly doubled, in fact--and the technical progress of the rest of the world (and China itself) has allowed China to retain jobs as such. A doubling of wage overnight would destroy their workforce; but a doubling of wage over 10 years, with increases in purchasing power across their export markets, and with increases in technical progress to reduce the labor-hours invested in their production processes? That kind of wage growth, in that frame, occurs alongside factors which drive their costs down, and thus simply prevents an explosion of labor force population. It's sustainable at that level.

As we continue to purchase from their export

Re:It's not about risk...

[the_B0fh]

And fuck anyone with families that are separated because someone in that family had the audacity to travel out of the country, right?

Re: It's not about risk...

[Anonymous Coward]

Wrong. Microsoft employee here and former Amazonian.
Your citizenship has zero impact on the salary at both places. Only your skills and experience.

Re: It's not about risk...

[Anonymous Coward]

Umm so paying factory workers less is better for them...
How convenient that you're not a factory worker

Re:It's not about risk...

[wyHunter]

Indeed, if we all switched to wearing togas all we'd need is a few yards/meters of fabric and wrap it round us and pin it! Voila!

Re:It's not about risk...

[Anonymous Coward]

Insightful, really?

Some people prefer company to being alone. Us being a social species, that's actually extremely common. What's wrong with YOU that the only reason you think people can have for liking to be around other people is to get their ego stroked? Yeeesh.

Re:It's not about risk...

[Anonymous Coward]

If you pay for better fabric you also have to pay for someone to sit in the factory and make sure they use it. Chinese are prone to keep using cheap materials and resell the expensive stuff you buy them.

Check out the steel industry.

BS

[Anonymous Coward]

Good luck with that

Microsoft doing good things??!?

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft what do you do??!?! If cou continue this path, the devil will love samsung more than you!

You have been formally PUT ON NOTICE for doing good things! Sad!

Re:Microsoft doing good things??!?

[Anonymous Coward]

They aren't doing "good things', unless you think slave owners hunting for their runaway slaves is a good thing.

Sure, if they are H-1B....

[Anonymous Coward]

...as long as they are paid whichever is greater: 150% of average pay for the position nation wide or 400% the average cost of living including rent for a 2 bedroom 1000sq.ft. apartment within 10 miles of their workplace, with a 1% above yearly inflation(or tied to rent).

Because H-1B Visas are meant ONLY for filling positions that can't be filled via existing US citizens.

Re:Sure, if they are H-1B....

[rjhubs]

This is not about H1-B
"The exemptions sought would cover workers with visas sponsored by U.S.-based companies and students with ones obtained via a U.S.-based school."
It is right in the summary....

Re:Sure, if they are H-1B....

[GLMDesigns]

You expect a two bedroom 1000sq ft apartment? Where the fook do you live? Here is spacious NYC 550 square feet is a decent sized one bedroom. You expect a foyer? Not here dude.

Seriously. 1000 square foot places in NYC (in nice areas) are an expensive, close to unaffordable, luxury.

Re:Sure, if they are H-1B....

[thunderclees]

H1B's are supposed to be sponsored though this aspect is often abused.

Re:Sure, if they are H-1B....

[shaitand]

"This is not about H1-B
"The exemptions sought would cover workers with visas sponsored by U.S.-based companies"

It is indeed right in the summary... did you not know that H1Bs are visas for workers sponsored by U.S. Based companies?

Re:Sure, if they are H-1B....

[__aaclcg7560]

Here is spacious NYC 550 square feet is a decent sized one bedroom.

My Silicon Valley studio apartment is only 475 square feet. Could be worse. A relative bought a $1M+ five-bedroom house in Gilroy that had a wet bar larger than my kitchen and a kitchen larger than my apartment. Very obscene. Although the mountain lion watching the BBQ from the other side of a 20-foot-tall wired fence was very cool.

Re:Sure, if they are H-1B....

[DontBeAMoran]

Started as plausible, finished as crazy. Loved it.

Re:Sure, if they are H-1B....

[__aaclcg7560]

Started as plausible, finished as crazy. Loved it.

What's crazy?

http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-search/Gilroy_CA/beds-5-5

Re:Sure, if they are H-1B....

[Anon-Admin]

wow, I bought 12 acres for $10k but im not in Cal.

Re:Sure, if they are H-1B....

[Bob the Super Hamste]

Man I got screwed. All I got for $40k a few years back was 2.7 acres but that is all upland hardwoods with 210' for shore line on a lake with no public access. Again not in CA.

Joking aside your seems like a reasonable price depending on what is on the land and what is nearby. Mine is a 2 hour drive from the twin cities and is within 10 miles of a major fishing and recreation lake, unfortunately that was managed into the ground recently, so those things help drive up the price as well as the shoreline and the lake not having public access. I have seen other properties as low as $350 and acre but those are usually really in the middle of no where and if they have trees it is usually little shitty aspens with a bunch of lowland brush and a swamp for good measure. When you get to the $1000/acre you start seeing some nice but remote properties that aren't lakefront in Minnesota. This is just one of the many reasons that I tell recruiters who contact me who are out in CA that they can't afford me as I'm not taking a step down in my lifestyle.

Re:Sure, if they are H-1B....

[pr0fessor]

I live in the US mid-west renting a place is about $1.00 - $1.10/sq ft so that apartment would be about $550-$600/month.

Re:Sure, if they are H-1B....

[balbeir]

As long as you like snow in winter and skating on your lake. To me that's an undesirable lifestyle. One of the things that's an order of magnitude better in CA than in Minnesota is the weather. It's one of the other reasons people want to live and work there and that drives the prices up.

Re:Sure, if they are H-1B....

[GLMDesigns]

In Cobble Hill, Brooklyn it's $2250/mth

Re:Sure, if they are H-1B....

[phantomfive]

12 acres for $10k? Where is that? I think I've seen prices like that in the Mojave desert.......

Re:Sure, if they are H-1B....

[DontBeAMoran]

I thought the "mountain lion" part was a pet sort of thing.

Re:Sure, if they are H-1B....

[Anonymous Coward]

I fookin live where we fookin do fookin XML all fookin day mate.

Re:Sure, if they are H-1B....

[Anonymous Coward]

That's a lot of McMansions...

Every single one too large for the lot they were built in.

Re:Sure, if they are H-1B....

[Bob the Super Hamste]

Actually I do ice fishing, snowmobiling, and snow showing, my kids like cross country skiing all of which are things one can do up there in the winter. At the end of the road (about 200 meters) is 680 acres of public land open to snowmobiling, ATVs, hunting, and other activities. If I really want to go fast on a snowmobile I can take the snowmobile trail over to the big lake and have about 200 square miles of area to ride on at any speed the machine is capable of reaching.

CA weather is different. It doesn't get as cold but CA does suffer from droughts, mudslides, earthquakes, and fires at a level that is worse than has ever been seen in Minnesota. Add in the very high cost of living (food, housing, and transportation), the California crazies, and the brogrammer cultures and it becomes clear that companies wouldn't pay me enough.

When I say support my current life style I expect to have similar to what I currently have. I own a ~2000 square foot house on a half acre plot that backs up to a 14 acre wooded city park. My home is also in one of the best school districts in the state and my kids will be going to one of the best high school in the state. My commute is at most 40 minutes usually closer to 30. The lake property is 2 hours 15 minutes away and is owned outright. My house has only 10 years left until it will be owned outright. I am also able to save close to half of my after tax income and still afford everything else. No employer in CA who has ever contacted me has made an offer that would even come close to that with most offers being slightly more pay than what I currently make by at most 20%. I also get offers for companies on the east coast and their offers are just laughably bad. The worse one there was for a position similar to what I do now in a higher cost area on the east coast but for 1/3rd of my current pay. I laughed at that person who then asked if that was a good offer, I responded and told them it was fucking awful as I make over 3x that now and don't have to live in the Philadelphia area.

Re:Sure, if they are H-1B....

[__aaclcg7560]

I thought the "mountain lion" part was a pet sort of thing.

Build houses up in the foothills of Silicon Valley, you have to worry about wildlife. That would typically be deers, mountain lions, rattlesnakes and tarantulas. Some areas have wild boars that love to tear up the landscaping. Down in the valley you have to worry about late night visitors like possums, racoons and skunks.

I Live Under A Rock

[Anonymous Coward]

Such individuals are low-risk -- having already undergone a rigorous vetting process -- and face immediate hardship as a result of last week's order

Could someone please explain to those of us who live under rocks, what "order" is he referring to?

Re:I Live Under A Rock

[Anonymous Coward]

This executive order

Re:I Live Under A Rock

[will_die]

https://theduran.com/donald-tr...

Re:I Live Under A Rock

[Dunbal]

Yes you could rely on the lying MSM to tell you what they want it to mean. Or you could read the real thing here.

Re:I Live Under A Rock

[Anonymous Coward]

lying MSM.

HAHHAHAHAAHAHAHAH

you actually fall for that tripe bullshit!?!?!?!

Re:I Live Under A Rock

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes you could rely on the lying MSM to tell you what they want it to mean. Or you could read the real thing here.

Don't you mean here?

(I'd link to the specific one, but there are a few which, just from the titles, could possibly be the one referenced in yours and AC's articles.)

Re:I Live Under A Rock

[Anonymous Coward]

lying MSM.

HAHHAHAHAAHAHAHAH

you actually fall for that tripe bullshit!?!?!?!

Our PRESIDENT said it. Therefore it must be true!

Re:I Live Under A Rock

[Dunbal]

you actually fall for that tripe bullshit!?!?!?!

They've been caught again and again because they're not even good liars. But sure - whatever. Everything you hear/read is true.

Re:I Live Under A Rock

[Anonymous Coward]

NPR is very much a part of the mainstream media. It is sponsored by major corporations and the federal government. You can't get more status quo than NPR.

Re:I Live Under A Rock

[dwillden]

You mean tripe like how the lying MSM continues to call it a "Muslim Ban". And pushes sob stories non-stop about it. Hell my local TV station is running an article about the last refugees for four months arriving an how the wife was set to come next month but is now banned for four months. The only problem, the family arriving is from Afghanistan, a country not on the list. So her delays are in no way related to the EO.

a little pressure

[Pirulo]

Just expire all their Windows licences. I am sure Microsoft has a way to justify it somewhere in the EULA.

Re:a little pressure

[Anonymous Coward]

sure, and the govt has a way to justify driving a tank into the redmond datavault and "liberate" all their Windows licenses.

(Also, the NSA has a signature key for windows...)

Re:a little pressure

[Anonymous Coward]

"How to torpedo your company in one easy step!"

They don't get it.

[freeze128]

This just proves that Microsoft just doesn't get it. The whole point of Trump's administration is to make American companies hire American workers. Too bad if outsourced workers are cheaper, AMERICANS NEED JOBS!

Re:They don't get it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh it goes further than that.
The whole point of Bannon's administration is to keep all foreigners out of the US.
As far as he's concerned, legal immigrants are worse than illegal ones.

Re:They don't get it.

[epiphani]

Speaking as someone who has spent thousands of dollars in legal assistance getting the appropriate visa in place allowing me to work in the US (but luckily am not from one of the countries in the executive order)... go fuck yourself. This isn't about American jobs, its about screwing over people you don't like and trying to win political points with morons.

People have spent years getting those visas. People may have even been living the in US for decades. This is not a moratorium on new visas, this is retroactively screwing people who have followed the process to get into the US legally.

Re:They don't get it.

[Anonymous Coward]

The workers MS bring in AREN'T cheaper, they are paid at the same rate as US workers or in most cases higher.

Re:They don't get it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Americans need to finish their schools to qualify for these jobs too. Somehow i feel most of the Trump voters would rather get a job in a car factory.

Re:They don't get it.

[Fire_Wraith]

Of course he is. That's why his businesses are busy seeking all the foreign worker visas they can get. And that's why the H-2A and H-2B visas his businesses use aren't on the list of visa types he wants to crack down on, either.

http://www.npr.org/2017/01/12/...
http://www.vox.com/policy-and-...

Re:They don't get it.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's bullshit, though. It doesn't matter if you're an American either, you have to give up your constitutional liberty and abandon all integrity in your interpretation of the rule of law unless you can convince yourself that doing whatever Trump tells you, in the name of God, is the only way to save your eternal soul.

Re:They don't get it.

[m00sh]

This just proves that Microsoft just doesn't get it. The whole point of Trump's administration is to make American companies hire American workers. Too bad if outsourced workers are cheaper, AMERICANS NEED JOBS!

And you wonder why they'd rather hire a "terrorist" over you. Entitlement much?

Re:They don't get it.

[Anonymous Coward]

I blame that "American worker" Satya Nadella.

Re:They don't get it.

[Major Blud]

The workers MS bring in AREN'T cheaper, they are paid at the same rate as US workers or in most cases higher.

But you can't hire Americans and ask them to work 80+ hours a week under the threat of deportation.

Re:They don't get it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Well to be fair, what's the point of having a country at all if it doesn't entitle you to anything? Just somewhere to throw away your taxes in the hope that you'll get drafted for a war you don't wanna fight?

Re:They don't get it.

[__aaclcg7560]

Americans need to finish their schools to qualify for these jobs too.

New factory jobs require a college degree. Something that most Trump voters don't possess.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/30/education/edlife/factory-workers-college-degree-apprenticeships.html

Somehow i feel most of the Trump voters would rather get a job in a car factory.

From the various articles of I've read, the ideal Trump voter is someone who wants a 1980's manufacturing job that doesn't require a high school diploma. Those jobs are not coming back.

Re:They don't get it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Canada is part of North America, so by your definition I am American. Kindly get the fuck out of my way and remove all border stops when I try to go shopping in your giant U.S.A.-ians shopping malls.

Re:They don't get it.

[OzPeter]

A friend of a friend on Facebook is Iranian by birth. She has lived 20+ years in Australia and is an Australian citizen. She has also previously lived 5+ years in the UK and is now in the middle of a 5+ year stint in the US. She does not have a green card but is working in the US under a valid US work visa (but I don't know which class). She has had to cancel 5 international business trips in the short term because as per Trump if she leaves the US the immigration lawyers at her work have said as a best guess that she won't be able to re-enter.

How's that for fucking over your friends.

Re: They don't get it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Congrats for the awakening! What's the use of a political class and leaders who don't serve primarly their social enclave interests and well being?!

Re:They don't get it.

[cayenne8]

Well to be fair, what's the point of having a country at all if it doesn't entitle you to anything? Just somewhere to throw away your taxes in the hope that you'll get drafted for a war you don't wanna fight?

PLEASE post under a real username...so someone can/will mod you up!!!

I couldn't have put it any better.

Yes...if you are a US citizen, you *SHOULD* have first preference to a job in your own country.

Re:They don't get it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you from Iran, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Somalia, Sudan or Yemen?

I doubt it.

My U.S. based IT company has 90% foreign born workers. Most are Indian. Some are Asian.

This E.O. has nothing to do with them. At all.

And as the token white guy, I wouldn't mind if Trump's proposed H1B reform makes things a little more diverse around here.

Re:They don't get it.

[misexistentialist]

People get screwed in business all the time, don't know why work visas should be completely risk-free

Re:They don't get it.

[Anonymous Coward]

We don't want or need foreign workers here. There is no labor shortage, there never was. You are only here because you value your time less than the typical American and American business knows and exploits this. Your presence here only benefits you and the company. What about the 300 million other natives? Fuck them too?

Re:They don't get it.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd hire any immigrant over you fuckface

Re:They don't get it.

[JustNiz]

It's not entitlement because its not a level playing field.
in real money terms, the living costs for foreign workers, and their families in their own country is WAY cheaper than what US citizens and their families in the US need to just get by.

Re: They don't get it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Indeed

By the way, exactly who are Americans?

Re: They don't get it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Congrats, this is what killed the happines, the work life balance and the marriage as social contract value in NA, the import of slaves without any dignity and respect for their own life and time value. This is what has made America a nation of divorced depression people and derailed kids.

Re:They don't get it.

[sinij]

Speaking as someone who has spent thousands of dollars in legal assistance getting the appropriate visa in place allowing me to work in the US... go fuck yourself.

Why do you think your ability to work in the US should be prioritized over interests of US citizens and US tech workers? Do you think USA could have a legitimate right to turn you away for any reason whatsoever, no matter how misguided such reason might be?

I do not live or work in US, so this is neutral third-party question.

Re:They don't get it.

[Anonymous Coward]

What about the 300 million other natives? Fuck them too?

Well, my plan was to limit myself to the roughly 10 million females of legal and childbearing age who meet some fairly arbitrary cosmetic and behavioral standards.

Re: They don't get it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Congrats, corporations needs people with slave mentality which don't value their personal and family time because that's how they are raised conditioned in Asia, a cultural clash trough which the western society went already and learned its lessons.

Re:They don't get it.

[Zontar_Thing_From_Ve]

Speaking as someone who has spent thousands of dollars in legal assistance getting the appropriate visa in place allowing me to work in the US (but luckily am not from one of the countries in the executive order)... go fuck yourself. This isn't about American jobs, its about screwing over people you don't like and trying to win political points with morons.

People have spent years getting those visas. People may have even been living the in US for decades. This is not a moratorium on new visas, this is retroactively screwing people who have followed the process to get into the US legally.

It could actually both be about American jobs and screwing over people you don't like to win political points. There's nothing about one that prevents the other.

You might want to ramp your hysterical reaction down a notch or two. No legal residents are being kicked out. Some who left the country are having trouble getting back in, but nobody here is being kicked out. I read recently about a guy who has lived in the US for over 20 years and his children are young adults and naturalized citizens. For some reason Dad doesn't want to get US citizenship, so he's now in trouble because he travels outside the USA all the time on work and he's an Iranian passport holder. I admit to not really seeing the point in targeting people like him, but I have to ask why he hasn't applied for American citizenship yet. Maybe if he needs an Iranian passport to work in countries hostile towards the USA, he needs to consider getting a new job. I personally know immigrants who the first chance they could they applied for US citizenship and got tested and they are proud to be Americans. Maybe it's inconvenient for him but the truth is that having US citizenship provides protections that don't exist otherwise. As long as you are a long time legal resident without citizenship, you're always going to be at some level of risk that Uncle Sam might not want to extend your stay.

Re:They don't get it.

[Anonymous Coward]

> its about screwing over people you don't like
Who doesn't like to screw over people they don't like? You probably do.
>and trying to win political points with morons.
I doubt trump cares about his popularity, in fact he probably cares more about his negative popularity...

You think you can just work in other country just because you want to?
No.

You. Don't. Matter.

And btw, I'm also working in Australia, I had to do a lot of work to get my visa.
I would not mind getting deported if it means they'd deport all the scum that comes here (and specially their offspring that seem to care even less).
I can say all this because I'm not Australian, and I come from a 3rd world country.

Re:They don't get it.

[Anonymous Coward]

This just proves that Microsoft just doesn't get it. The whole point of Trump's administration is to make American companies hire American workers. Too bad if outsourced workers are cheaper, AMERICANS NEED JOBS!

This particular Slashdot article is about Microsoft objecting to Trump's Muslim travel ban - which was supposedly about preventing domestic terrorist attacks.

Going off topic, the question of how immigration affects the employment rate is complex. But what's most commonly observed in practice is that immigration, per se, actually makes things better - that is, it decreases the unemployment rate. Of course, there may be other compounding factors, such as a recession or government austerity, that cause the unemployment rate to rise even with significant immigration.

Getting back on topic, there's a fundmental question whether the purpose of life is to do as much as you can for yourself - to be as selfish as possible. Or whether the purpose of life is to do as much as you can for others - to be as generous as possible. And what to do if you want to be generous while someone else wants to be selfish but you ultimately have to make a single united decision together.

One of the few things that Americans are supposed to all believe in is individual freedom - not just for themselves but also for others. And Americans are supposed to believe this strongly: "Live free or die!", as they say in New Hampshire.

Now, obviously Muslim refugees would very much benefit from individual freedom. Specifically, they would benefit from not having some government bureaucracy dictate to them where they can live and work and travel. But, of course, there is a very small risk that some of these refugees might buy some hunting rifles at Walmart and go shoot up a shopping mall. Now, just driving to work there's a much greater risk that a fellow American will try to crush me with an oversized pickup truck and, when that fails, shoot me with a Walmart hunting rifle - in some pointless "road rage" incident - as is his God given right according to the Second Amendment.

And, of course, one might argue that the real risk of domestic terrorism is from a group with enough sophistication to make a nuclear bomb and take out a major US city in a a few seconds. But, obviously, a group that can smuggle a nuclear bomb into the USA will also be able to smuggle in some people to detonate it - regardless of any ban on Muslim refugees.

So the question for us Americans is how selfish we are. How much are we willing to give up a tiny bit of safety so that others can have the individual freedom to significantly improve their lives? Most of the time in the world when you see someone suffering there's not much you can do to help. But, here, it's very very easy: just give up a tiny bit of safety.

Some Americans are totally completely and utterly selfish in this regard while others would prefer to be more generous. But it's a decision that must be made together. Either certains refugees are allowed to come to the USA or they're not. I don't have a good answer but it's an intersting situation to be in - trying to find compromise between people who are selfish and those who are not.

Re:They don't get it.

[laurencetux]

Okay if you can not prove you are a minimum 25% Native American then Please Return to Your Own Homeland.

By Strict Standards Mexicans have more of a right than most Texans do

Re:They don't get it.

[Anonymous Coward]

American citizen worked for a company for 15 years and paid taxes to the government that supposed to put his interests first. Now the government makes law which allows company to hire aforementioned Iranian by birth instead. And now this American citizen is out on his ass.
How is that for fucking over your citizenry? Why should I pay taxes to the government that fucks over me the first chance it gets?

Re: They don't get it.

[Anonymous Coward]

U can be sure american youngsters would gladly take the STEM education if the long term ROI for them would be worth it and they wouldn't be under treat to be replaced with foreign slaves. It is just a matter of smart investment.

Re:They don't get it.

[Jodka]

AMERICANS NEED JOBS!

Which is exactly what you get when foreign engineering and design firms which operate from nations with permissive immigration for STEM talent outsource their low-wage manual labor jobs here for manufacture. What? You want those corporations and their profits to stay here? Forget that, you just walled off the vast international source of talent from domestic high-tech companies which need access to succeed.

Ceteris paribus, the most successful companies are those with the best access to resources, not those with the most limited access to resources. Labor is a resource.

Engineering and design work supports an umbrella of labor: managers, accountants, IT, safety, etc. If your company fails because misguided nationalists blocked access to engineering talent, then all those jobs go with it.

The nations which most successfully exploit the law of comparative advantage by allowing the most free exchange of goods and labor are the wealthiest nations. Walling yourself off because you believe that hoarding jobs and goods in your own country will make it richer is a certain formula for failure and poverty.

Re:They don't get it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Why do you think your ability to work in the US should be prioritized over interests of US citizens and US tech workers?

Why do you think that someone who has followed all the rules should get fucked by an arbitrary rule change with zero warning?
You think its great it when it happens to the other, just wait until it happens to you.

Re:They don't get it.

[__aaclcg7560]

America is for Native Americans

If you're not a Native American, KINDLY GET OUT

doesn't matter if you're smart, honest, well behaved, a perfect employee or even run your own company, GET OUT, THANK YOU. ENJOY YOUR OWN HOMELAND

FTFY

Re:They don't get it.

[MrLogic17]

Cancel 5 trips over the next 90 days? For an Australian citizen? Based on a nebulous fear?

Smells fishy to me dude. I'd check your sources on that one.

Re:They don't get it.

[Anonymous Coward]

There were 0 deaths from terrorist attacks from those countries.

But that's fine. you are an abject retard, and King Retard will keep making America worse and worse to please morons like yourself.

Enjoy the damage you have done to people who are likely better educated and more useful than yourself.

You can stomp on the throats of the powerless until your legs get sore. But you will still be completely fucking worthless.

Re:They don't get it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Canada is part of North America, so by your definition I am American. Kindly get the fuck out of my way and remove all border stops when I try to go shopping in your giant U.S.A.-ians shopping malls.

You can't even rip your country away from the grasp of English Monarchy, and you want to go ranting about borders and limits?

When you turn around to head back north, you might notice it's labeled the Canadian border dumbass, so unless you want to tell your government to kindly get the fuck out of my way, shut the fuck up about the fact we happen to share the same piece of dirt.

Re: They don't get it.

[__aaclcg7560]

U can be sure american youngsters would gladly take the STEM education if the long term ROI for them would be worth it and they wouldn't be under treat to be replaced with foreign slaves. It is just a matter of smart investment.

That's unlikely. Most American youngsters and their parents are interested in the majors that are money makers today. They're not going to look at long-term studies to see if a job will still exist after four years of schooling or 30+ years from now. Too many young Americans stop learning after leaving school, fail to change when the job market changes, and find themselves stuck in life — just like their parents.

Re:They don't get it.

[m00sh]

Well to be fair, what's the point of having a country at all if it doesn't entitle you to anything? Just somewhere to throw away your taxes in the hope that you'll get drafted for a war you don't wanna fight?

The president doesn't pay taxes.

An immigrant probably pays more taxes, and fights and dies for America.

Re:They don't get it.

[OzPeter]

Cancel 5 trips over the next 90 days? For an Australian citizen? Based on a nebulous fear?

Smells fishy to me dude. I'd check your sources on that one.

Do you mean like this direct quote that I just copied from FB????? The one I paraphrased above???? That one???

Immigration lawyers have said that if I fly overseas I will not be allowed to board a flight back to the US. No one born in Iran (or the 6 other countries listed on the EO) can enter unless they have an American passport or greencard (contentious). 20+ years living in Australia, 5+ years in UK and US, an Aussie passport, a visa to work here.. all irrelevant because of my country of birth. Tomorrow's flight cancelled, 4 other trips over the next 90 days postponed. It's a sad time to be in America.

Re:They don't get it.

[m00sh]

It's not entitlement because its not a level playing field. in real money terms, the living costs for foreign workers, and their families in their own country is WAY cheaper than what US citizens and their families in the US need to just get by.

It's entitlement when you think you deserve better for no real reason.

Re: They don't get it.

[Anonymous Coward]

People don't use real ids because the fascist political correctness militia is real and active

Re:They don't get it.

[Trogre]

So... why aren't they "Americans" by now?

Re:They don't get it.

[Cyberax]

"Allow proper vetting"? WTF are you smoking? Visas are issued by US consulates, host countries have nothing to do with them.

Re:They don't get it.

[Anonymous Coward]

America has a 4% unemployment rate, currently.
Evidently, Americans need education more than jobs.

Re:They don't get it.

[OzPeter]

And if she had a stamp in her passport from Israel, she would be executed upon entry into Iran (actually factually true).

True but irrelevant.

Sorry she comes from a shithole, but the "ban" is Trump's attempt to force those countries to vet the people getting visas so we can tell they are not terrorists coming to kill US citizens.

She already has the Visa. She has been vetted. She is already here.

Once those countries comply and allow proper vetting, they get taken off the list.

Umm .. you do realize that it is the US that is doing the vetting don't you? Do you?

They refuse to comply, the ban will be extended past the original 120 days. As soon as those idiots stop thinking coming to the US to kill us is a good idea, they will be treated better. Until then, I don't really care how long they are banned.

It's the banning the people who are coming here with good intentions that is the issue. But you seem hung up on THE EVIL TERRORISTS THAT LURK IN EVERY SHADOW.

When did it become evil to even TRY to protect US citizens from foreign terrorist? You realize you are arguing to benefit ISIS?

How the fuck is screwing over a person who has been vetted already has a visa protecting the US from terrorists? If anything it plays directly in to the easily radicalized by saying "look at how bad the US treats its friends. The US is obviously evil and doesn't want to give anyone else a fair chance".

Re:They don't get it.

[Cyberax]

H1B holders can change employers.

Re:They don't get it.

[Anonymous Coward]

> She has had to cancel 5 international business trips in the short term because as per Trump if she leaves the US the immigration lawyers at her work have said as a best guess that she won't be able to re-enter.

First off, if you're not a citizen, reentry is guaranteed. Even Green Card holders are not guaranteed reentry. People here on a visitor or work visa? Helllllllll no.

Secondly, she (or -more likely- her employer) can petition the SoS and Secretary of the DHS directly. If they give her an override, then she's almost certain to be let back in.

Remember all that shit from last weekend? The shit with those stranded travelers in limbo? Preventing _that_ is why there's a 90-day (overrideable by the SoS or the DHS) entry prohibition for citizens of those few "terror-related" countries. In eighty-five days or so, that prohibition should be lifted.

If we don't have another long weekend like last weekend, the temporary prohibition will have done its job. If eighty-five-ish days from now the prohibition has been lifted, then we'll know that it wasn't just a ploy to bar "brown people" from the country.

Re:They don't get it.

[__aaclcg7560]

America has a 4% unemployment rate, currently.
Evidently, Americans need education more than jobs.

You haven't been paying attention. Trump says there are 96 million Americans out of work. Repeal child labor and retirement laws to get America working again. Being too young and too old is no longer an excuse not to work.

Re:They don't get it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Even easier Iran could just do business with Trump then visa holders wont be banned. http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/trump-muslim-ban-excludes-countries-linked-businesses-article-1.2957956

Re:They don't get it.

[OzPeter]

Aww, she can't leave the country for a few months.

You really can't see past your nose can you. She is working in the US. Cancelling those BUSINESS trips causes financial harm to a US company. That screws over not just her but her fellow employees that ARE US Citizens. You know .. the sort of person you are, but with more common sense.

Re:They don't get it.

[fluffernutter]

The fact is, Americans have no choice but to buy things from the American economy. If you are in an industry that decides they only have to pay people according to another country's economy, then all members in that industry are being undermined in regards to their relation to peers to function in the local economy. If everyone was being affected across the board then it wouldn't be such a big deal because costs would be coming down. But this is very specific to technology workers mostly, so we are not only having the job market dropped out from underneath us, but we are also not having our economy reflect costs that balance with our income as we should have in a healthy economy.

Re:They don't get it.

[Anonymous Coward]

"A friend of a friend", really you don't know who this person is you're just looking for crap to throw on the wall to see what sticks.

Re:They don't get it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Unless you are doing something that improves the aggregate wages of native citizens, we don't need you.

Re:They don't get it.

[Anonymous Coward]

>An immigrant probably pays more taxes, and fights and dies for America.
You must be stupid to be this deluded....

I'm a fucking immigrant from a 3rd world country...
I fucking hate what is happening to the west, this is not what I wanted.

Re:They don't get it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Americans fought for the land and won.
Happens in nature, happens in real life.

Besides, that is double thing:
>Welcome all people
>To this land that doesn't belong to us and we should get out

Fuck Right. Off.

Re:They don't get it.

[serviscope_minor]

And if she had a stamp in her passport from Israel, she would be executed upon entry into Iran (actually factually true).

Let's make America great again by being not quite as bad as Iran. Yeah.

USA! USA! USA!

You realize you are arguing to benefit ISIS?

Banning (for example) a British citizen with dual nationality from transiting through the US doesn't harm ISIS in any way. If you think it does then you're stupid.

Re:They don't get it.

[lgw]

I'm a native American - I was born here.

If you're talking about the various tribes mistakenly labeled "Indians" by Colombus, they weren't the first peoples here. Their ancestors displaced the previous people by force. In some places in the US there have been 6 waves (including the European one) IIRC, so you have to go back through several vanished civilizations to find the one who can actually claim "first post".

Re:They don't get it.

[Anonymous Coward]

That's the price you pay as an American company for hiring scabs

The blowback has begun. There will finally be a penalty for this "whatever is best for the shareholder" style of business

Re:They don't get it.

[__aaclcg7560]

Native Americans fought for the land and lost.

FTFY - Native Americans lived in the Americas long before the British, French, Spanish, Portuguese and Russian empires started dividing up the place.

Re:They don't get it.

[Anonymous Coward]

This E.O. has nothing to do with them. At all.

First they came for the Iranians, Iraqis, Syrians, Libyans, Somalians, Sudanese, and Lebanese.

And as the token white guy, I wouldn't mind if Trump's proposed H1B reform makes things a little more diverse around here.

Good news! Once Trump's ability to evict visa and greencard holders is established by his Supreme Court, him and Bannon will finish the job.

Re:They don't get it.

[Anonymous Coward]

You got quite the tongue, there...

It's much, much more than removing inappropriate H1B visas.
It's not about tax cuts for business; it's about getting this country
to have its self-confidence restored. Obama (literally) bowing to
foreign powers (Saudi) WTF~! Those are the types of things
that cut deeply that we're trying to heal that. If you think it's about
race and hate for Islam, you're the one with the problem.

CAP === 'counters'

Re:They don't get it.

[__aaclcg7560]

I'm a native American - I was born here.

I was born here too. But I'm a German/English/Swedish/Irish/French-Canadian-American. But I would never pass myself off as a Native American, as my ancestors came from Europe and migrated westward prior to the American Civil War. I'm actually a minority in the Great State of California, which is fine with me because I grew up in the melting pot called Silicon Valley.

Re:They don't get it.

[Anonymous Coward]

America doesn't belong to Native Americans anymore.
They lost.
Boo hoo.
It would be unwise of the current occupants to make the same mistakes they did.

Re:They don't get it.

[MobyDisk]

Who modded this up? The AC poster doesn't even seem to understand what a visa is.

Trump's attempt to force those countries to vet the people getting visas

You don't know what you are talking about. It is the US that vets the people and issues the visa, not the other country. And the ban affects people *returning* to the US who live in the US. They don't need to be vetted, they don't need new visas.

As soon as those idiots stop thinking coming to the US to kill us is a good idea

Ummm... that isn't happening.

You realize you are arguing to benefit ISIS?

Again, they don't know what they are talking about. The state department claims this ban is going to increase our risk of terrorism, not decrease it. And ISIS doesn't want to send people to the US. They want Muslims from the US to immigrate to those 7 countries and fight for them.

I guess the informative thing about the post is it shows that the fiction is working. People think ISIS wants to attack the US, they think people from those countries are killing us, and they don't understand how international travel works.

Re:They don't get it.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not entitlement because its not a level playing field.
in real money terms, the living costs for foreign workers, and their families in their own country is WAY cheaper than what US citizens and their families in the US need to just get by.

It's entitlement when you think you deserve better for no real reason.

You mean like free health care?

Re:They don't get it.

[Anonymous Coward]

followed the process to get into the US legally

Yeah guess who bought those laws. People like Microsoft.

I remember back in 2000 I saw a hiring ad looking for a Windows administrator with 8 years experience with Windows 2000.. Yep, can't find any Americans who meet those criteria, better hire some H1Bs!
Or how about every time an American company fires their IT workers but makes them train their H1B replacements before they go?
The whole program is corrupt. Buying laws doesn't make things ethical, it just makes things legal/illegal.

I'd be just fine with with outsourcing and H1Bs for everyone, if they removed the salary cap and required non-Americans to be paid 25% more than the going market rate in America. Also I would say that if the non-Americans become citizens that they cannot have their pay cut down to American going rates for their first 3 years as a citizen.
This would make sure that when there really are no Americans who can do the job, that foreigners are not getting abused just because they are not Americans.

Re:They don't get it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Its more challenging - not all employers want to jump through the H1B hoops.

Re:They don't get it.

[ImprovOmega]

These are people who HAVE visas to work in the United States. You know, vetted and approved already. It would be one thing to stop issuing visas, it's quite another to deny entry to people who already hold a valid visa.

Re:They don't get it.

[MightyMartian]

Any pre-Clovis peoples in the Americas were pretty small numbers, whereas there were a helluva lot of descendants of the Clovis peoples in the Americas, and they were witness to a lot more than wars. The treatment of some of these peoples was so awful that even at the time some had misgivings. At any rate, the point is that the Europeans were the late-comers and seized the land by force, just as their descendants seem oddly fearful that a few Syrian refugees are somehow going to manage to do.

As to the Mexicans, well much of what constitutes the southern United States was out and out stolen in an imperialistic war of aggression against Mexico. So if Spanish-speaking peoples are now growing in number, well, sounds like karma to me. It sounds a lot like some Anglo-saxon types are worried that others peoples are just as much a pack of bastards as they have been in the Americas. But really, I see little evidence of any great overthrow of the American system by immigrants, it strikes me that the damage is being done by that narcissistic moron the Electoral College put into the White House.

Re:They don't get it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Umm Saudi Arabia, Australia, Qatar all have more stringent rules about letting people in from those countries.
Let the Crazies and plody dopes talk bad about them first.

Re:They don't get it.

[__aaclcg7560]

It would be unwise of the current occupants to make the same mistakes they did.

That's an irrational fear spread by white nationalists in the White House.

Re:They don't get it.

[MobyDisk]

In what field are visa holders working 80+ hours a week under thread of deportation? What geographic location? I say that is fiction.

I can't speak for all fields, but if they are in any kind of computer-related field, they should move to the east coast. They will find a job making 60k easily, working 40 hours a week, guaranteed minimum 1-year contract. There's so much demand here it isn't funny. Nobody should put up with 80+ hours a week crud. Heck, why would anybody do that? They could probably do better in their home country.

Re:They don't get it.

[Anonymous Coward]

And if she had a stamp in her passport from Israel, she would be executed upon entry into Iran (actually factually true).

True but irrelevant.

Actually, not true and still irrelevant:

http://www.magiccarpettravel.co.uk/iran-visa/

"If you have Israeli or USA visa stamps in your passport, contrary to popular belief, this will not jeopardize your application for an Iranian visa"

Re:They don't get it.

[MobyDisk]

Only if they get sponsorship from their new employer. Some employers will do it, others won't.

Re:They don't get it.

[lgw]

My point is almost every spot of land in the world was taken by conquest by some previous owners, who took it by conquest etc. Defending against that sort of thing is the first principle of being a nation.

Re:They don't get it.

[johanw]

After all, the pittyfull remains of what are now called "native Americans" know all too well what happens when you let in too many immigrants...

Re:They don't get it.

[lgw]

Everyone in the US (other than recent immigrants) has ancestors who migrated here at some point in history. Humans didn't evolve here. Everyone who's not a first-gen immigrant is a native American. No special distinction should exist. That's kind of the point of America - we're not our ancestors, we're Americans. Don't create distinctions that only divide us.

Re:They don't get it.

[Anonymous Coward]

so you have internet on the reservation and didn't strip the copper wires out to sell for more money? thats cute, you probably were not born during the civil war yet still claim it has affected you in some way or another

Re:They don't get it.

[brantondaveperson]

Or how I lost my health insurance and access to my doctor because of Obamacare.

I'm very interested in the exact way in which this happened, would you elaborate for us? You could also explain the first statement too, but I just plain don't understand that one.

Re:They don't get it.

[Anonymous Coward]

H1B holders can change employers.

If they can find one that will sponsor their visa and they have to be very secretive about it because spiteful employers might just fire them if they find out about it before they have the new job. I worked with a lot of H1-Bs in my last job and this was a very real concern for them.

Re:They don't get it.

[JustNiz]

Agreed, but thats not what people are wanting in this case.

Re:They don't get it.

[__aaclcg7560]

Humans didn't evolve here.

That's not correct. Paleo-Americans came across the Bering Strait land bridge ~30,000 years ago in immigration wave that lasted ~10,000 years until the land bridge disappeared. Those people evolved here long before the Europeans showed up with their pot-infested blankets. Native Americans lack of immunity against "Old World" diseases is proof that they evolved separately from the rest of the world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleo-Indians

Don't create distinctions that only divide us.

Pretending that there are no distinctions between people will only divide us. Not every person wants to be a white male American.

Re:They don't get it.

[Anonymous Coward]

I got modded up because the MAJORITY agrees with my comments. Just because you are a spoiled little snowflake crying that you are not getting your way is irrelevant at this point.

Saying people from those countries are not terrorist is a lie, period. You wanting them to come here unvetted means you are comfortable with a certain number of US Citizens being killed in order to "maybe help another country". You are confused because after 8 years of the president screwing over US citizens at every possible opportunity, we have one who is looking out for us.

ISIS has CLAIMED they will send in people with the refugees to the US. You saying they don't want to is a lie, period.

You claim I don't know what I am talking about and have to lie repeatedly to make your points. You live a sad life when your best use of your time is to call people names online, make up lies to make your points, and support the potential killing of US citizens just to make a point about Trump being bad.

You should rethink your life.

Re:They don't get it.

[lgw]

There have been many waves, is the point you seem to be missing. And "pot-infested blankets" are only legal in WA and CO.

Pretending that there are no distinctions between people will only divide us. Not every person wants to be a white male American.

Ah, so you're overtly racist? You believe we should make distinctions between the good races and the bad, I assume? Even so, the idea that creating arbitrary distinctions somehow doesn't divide us is folly.

Re:They don't get it.

[lgw]

The president doesn't pay taxes.

Sure he does, in years when he manages to actually make any money. You have to have a positive income to pay income taxes. Trump business successes are, shall we say, sparse.

Re:They don't get it.

[Anonymous Coward]

We don't want foreigners to do to us what we did to the Native Americans. It's a rational desire, although not fair, admittedly.

Re:They don't get it.

[Notabadguy]

Jodka - you misspeak or misunderstand:

You said, "the most successful companies are those with the best access to resources, not those with the most limited access to resources. Labor is a resouce."

I'd counter:

Best access != cheapest. The most successful companies are those with the best access to resources, not those with the CHEAPEST resources. Labor is a resource. Impacting the valuation of a resource isn't synonymous with the quantity in existence or available of a resource.

Re:They don't get it.

[rtb61]

Still, the message is, 'so what train a local'. I sorry you do not get it but this is exactly what happens every single time. Greedy arseholes abuse the system and the rules are changed to end the disruption and a whole bunch of people get caught in the cross fire. It has happened exactly like this in the past and it will happen like it in the future. Greedy arse holes fuck the system up, regulations come in to curtail their excess and the few people who were doing the right thing lose out. Make no mistake right now the system is being abused the crap out of and everyone knows it and it has to stop and that means a bunch of people doing the right will suffer because of many, many, more doing the wrong thing. Don't whine about a few here and a few there suffering when tens of thousands are suffering on the other side. Corporations should train locals they should not demand that others pay for the training and then use them to break the backs of local workers and force them to submit to hugely reduced conditions of employment, it has to stop, sorry but that is it, suck it up.

Re:They don't get it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Plus why the fuck would you hire an American purely on principle *if they can't perform the tasks required for the job*?

It just means your fucking talent pool shrinks and you get less done.

Re:They don't get it.

[Hognoxious]

Sod off, we bloody well don't want them back. If we wanted to be ruled by puritanical nutbags we wouldn't have kicked them out in the first place.

Signed,
    England.

Re:They don't get it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Tell us more about how infrastructure was there when you got there

Re:They don't get it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Speaking as someone who has spent thousands of dollars in legal assistance getting the appropriate visa in place allowing me to work in the US (but luckily am not from one of the countries in the executive order)... go fuck yourself.

You are not a citizen. You are a guest.

As a guest, when your host no longer welcomes you and refuses to let you in... you go away.

Re:They don't get it.

[Anonymous Coward]

> should get fucked by an arbitrary rule change with zero warning?

How self-entitled is this snowflake? There is no reason to believe things are always the same or that there is a fairness doctrine for every situation (especially when you think one way is fucked but the other is not? like some sort of myopic child). It can and does happen. Not being self aware enough to understand how tenuous the situation is, when stepping foot in a foreign country, is called "living in ignorance".

Re:They don't get it.

[wisnoskij]

The entire point is that people form these countries have not been properly vetted. these are war tron countries that do not even supply police records for their citizens. Many of these refugees and immigrants are black boxes, with no provable history or documentation. Half of Trumps campaign was about increasing the vetting procedures for countries like these.

Re:They don't get it.

[Anonymous Coward]

No they cannot READ

Re:They don't get it.

[Anonymous Coward]

> Not being self aware enough to understand how tenuous the situation is, when stepping foot in a foreign country, is called "living in ignorance".

That's funny. I never before heard a citizen of the US refer to the US as a foreign country.
What, you think you are entitled to immunity from random arbitrary shit because you are a citizen?
Lol. Like said, this shit is coming for you next, yellow snowflake.

Re:They don't get it.

[Anonymous Coward]

oh, this is tantamount to passing an ex post facto law, which is against our legal history. hmm, may have a case there for rendering it null and void. hadnt considered that.

Re:They don't get it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Thanks for your thoughtful contribution Sitting Bull.

Re:They don't get it.

[TheSync]

AMERICANS NEED JOBS!

Americans need to learn the skills required to provide profitable services to others. Then people will hire them, or they can start their own businesses.

Re:They don't get it.

[gravewax]

So what you are saying is USA is heading down into the same shithole as Iran where people should be scared of the authorities and now longer can enjoy basic freedoms.

Re:They don't get it.

[gravewax]

what the fuck do you mean unvetted? The US VETS VISA's, every single visa must be issued and vetted by the US not some foreign country. You are far more likely to be shot by your neighbour then you are by ISIS (that doesn't mean ISIS aren't evil pieces of shit, they are and need to be eradicated), ISIS have far more concerns with simply surviving at this point. What the US needs to be thinking about is what the families of the people they are now alienating and whose lives they are risking will do to them in 20 years time.

Re:They don't get it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, the Native Americans lost the wars a few centuries ago. America is for Americans and that includes Native Americans (though I'd recommend never setting foot in a tribal area and, if you must, getting out as fast as you can); established history is in our favor.

PS: I am a Native American.

Re:They don't get it.

[Anonymous Coward]

This travel ban includes TRAVEL, dummy... so say Iranian friends of mine who have finished their PhD in the US, cannot go to Canada and return! If it was because you are afraid of the vetting procedures... when you went on holiday to the UK, did you hand over your FBI file before being allowed to go see Stonehenge?

Re:They don't get it.

[bsharma]

I don't understand this; If she has Australian passport, why will she be harassed? She can only be harassed if she travels on an Iranian passport i.e. she is a Iranian citizen.

Re:They don't get it.

[Anonymous Coward]

She's not my friend, and since she is an Australian citizen perhaps she should go back there.

As an anti-theist, I'm ecstatic about this muslim ban.

GET OUT, THANK YOU.

Re:They don't get it.

[Anonymous Coward]

> They will find a job making 60k easily

You've just said the reason why everyone is attracted to the west coast instead. Entry level jobs there are double that.

Re:They don't get it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Citation needed.

Re:They don't get it.

[dwillden]

If she is an Australian citizen, she applies for a travel visa using that passport. She is fine to travel then.

Re:They don't get it.

[dwillden]

Just because the attackers were incompetent does not lesson the fact that in the last year two Somali refugees conducted two separate attacks resulting in multiple injuries. One in Minnesota resulting in 9 innocent victims stabbed (luckily none died) before the perp was shot and killed by an officer. And the Ohio State Car and knife attack, again luckily none of the victims died and a police officer was able to quickly respond and end the attack.

So nobody died. But terror attacks still happened, and the incompetence of the attacker does not diminish the attempt or the extensive injuries and trauma suffered by their victims.

Or do we have to let American Citizens be killed before we react?

Re:They don't get it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Simple, his plan didn't meet the criteria, so despite the promise by President Obama, he didn't get to keep his insurance, his ins company may have even left the market where he lives. Thus he had to find a new plan

And his doctor is not part of the Network for the new insurance (that likely costs far more for far worse coverage), so he has to find a new doctor or his treatments get less coverage leaving him on the hook for 50% or more of every visit and service. Thus another Obama Promise broken, he didn't get to keep his doctor.

Re:They don't get it.

[dwillden]

Actually re-entry is not even guaranteed for a Citizen. You have the right to travel out of the country. Your rights on attempt to re-enter are greatly reduced. And the Gov can and has banned re-entry by Citizens before trapping thousands outside the country around the world. (the week post 9/11, nobody was flying here, not even citizens.)

Re:They don't get it.

[__aaclcg7560]

There have been many waves, is the point you seem to be missing.

Many waves between ~30,000 to ~20,000 years ago. Then none between ~20,000 years ago and the 15th century, where the various peoples evolved separately from the rest of humanity until the Europeans came with their pox-infected blankets, which may or may not have been made out of hemp fibers.

Ah, so you're overtly racist?

Just because I'm comfortable about race doesn't make me a racist, overt or otherwise. I live and work in a multicultural world. Except for the leasing office staff, I'm the only white person in my apartment complex. Down the street is a Korean church and a Jewish synagogue. On the bus, a half-dozen languages beside English is spoken. My boss is a black woman. My coworkers are American citizens who were born in England, Lebanon, Jamaica and Planet Texas.

You believe we should make distinctions between the good races and the bad, I assume?

I don't assume that being a white, hetrosexual male makes me better than anyone else. As the white executioner says to the black guy being hung on the gallows, "Everyone is equal in my eyes." ;)

Even so, the idea that creating arbitrary distinctions somehow doesn't divide us is folly.

Turning a blind eye to what makes us each unique human beings doesn't unify us either.

Re:They don't get it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Last I checked, Somalia isn't Iran or Qatar. Last I checked, anyway.

Re:They don't get it.

[david_thornley]

The entire point is that Trump is throwing his weight around to please his base. If he wanted to keep terrorists out, he'd have listed at least one country that's ever sent a terrorist to our shores.

Re:They don't get it.

[david_thornley]

A citizen has the absolute right to enter his or her country. If all aircraft are grounded, then nobody's flying in, but that's only one mode of entry.

Re:They don't get it.

[wisnoskij]

"throwing his weight around" by allowing some committee put together by Obama to dictate which countries are unsafe and should be vetter better?

Re:They don't get it.

[shutdown -p now]

Because of basic human decency.

If you don't want someone working in US, that's easy: don't issue them a visa or a green card.

But if you have already done so, at their considerable expense undergoing that process (which is neither lengthy nor cheap, especially for someone from those "extra vetting required" countries), and they already have a job, friends, and quite possibly loved ones in US?

It's legal, sure. But it's wrong as hell.

Re:They don't get it.

[david_thornley]

Let's see. If I leave the US, I can come back. I don't need two years of vetting. I don't need to worry about being deported back to, um, well, where? I have some influence on my country, since I vote, participate in precinct caucuses, and make campaign contributions. I get the use of numerous services that my taxes pay for. I get preference in various employment situations (we do some ITAR stuff here at work, which may only be seen by US persons, for example). There's plenty of advantages to being a US citizen.

Re:They don't get it.

[Cyberax]

JFYI, the current employer DOES NOT KNOW that somebody else is applying for H1B transfer for their employee. It's a protected personal information.

Re:They don't get it.

[Cyberax]

H1B transfer is easy - it just involves paying an attorney to file all the paperwork. There's no H1B lottery or anything, and the cost is trivial (around $2000) for a highly-compensated engineering employee. On the other hand, obtaining a new H1B visa is hard.

Re:They don't get it.

[david_thornley]

That would appear to mean that Trump wanted to change vetting and that Obama actually put together the list rather than signed the major appropriations bill it was a rider of.

Re:They don't get it.

[Hognoxious]

This has changed, then. You used to need permission from the old employee, which of course they wouldn't give.

Yes, Microsoft needs special consideration

[Anonymous Coward]

While this is one of the few times I agree with Microsoft, it does seem a bit strange that they would ask for special consideration publicly.
In the past, they always asked for favors behind closed doors.

Engineers 9 times more likely to be Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

https://science.slashdot.org/story/15/11/25/1326242/engineers-nine-times-more-likely-than-expected-to-become-terrorists

So this is about the stupidest exemption clause I've ever heard. Also, at a given point in time any Terrorist was law-abiding.

Re:Engineers 9 times more likely to be Terrorists

[dgatwood]

Nine times almost zero is still almost zero. The odds of someone being a terrorist is currently estimated at less than 0.00001%. That's less than one in ten million. So even after multiplying by nine, the odds of an engineer being a terrorist are still only about the same as the chances of that same engineer getting struck by lightning within the next year.

Perspective is a funny thing.

Microsoft engineers low risk ?

[Alain Williams]

Look at what they did to the USS Yorktown!

Re:Microsoft engineers low risk ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, that's just rumor and conjecture, and really, seems like more of a custom software/hardware problem.

Microsoft wants to modify /etc/hosts.deny

[helixcode123]

# Trump/Bannon settings:
ALL: ALL

Re:Microsoft wants to modify /etc/hosts.deny

[Anonymous Coward]

Now we know why those flights were grounded. For the new /etc/hosts.deny to be loaded, by systemd,
and I for one, will *be* there on the next 'Occupy' protest.

Re:Microsoft wants to modify /etc/hosts.deny

[Anonymous Coward]

Still preferable to
USA $ echo + > /etc/hosts.equiv

Import some talent in the old style?

[Anonymous Coward]

Just get some cowboys to rope us a few hundred thousand foreign savages and put them to work in the Microspice mines. Make America slavers again.

Re:Import some talent in the old style?

[x_t0ken_407]

Commenting to undo an erroneous mod...but fuck you.

Re:Import some talent in the old style?

[Anonymous Coward]

Awwwwwww, poooor baby didn't understand sarcasm. Awwwwww.

Please don't go groveling to him

[H3lldr0p]

That's what he wants. It's what he needs to feel important and the more you give into it, the more he's going to keep doing these stupid, stupid things.

This isn't about getting more Americans employed. It's about punishing people who wouldn't kowtow to him and his corrupt cronies. It's about hurting those he thinks need to be hurt.

He doesn't understand the world or how it works. He couldn't care less about you or I or how well we are employed. Neither can anyone else in his administration. Don't fool yourself into thinking that is a good thing. It's not. It's only going to hurt us more and more each day it goes on. It's going to hurt the prestige of the nation. It's going to hurt the economic prospects going forward. It's going to affect each and everyone of us in subtle and not so subtle ways. It already has.

Re:Please don't go groveling to him

[Sooner Boomer]

That's what he wants. It's what he needs to feel important and the more you give into it, the more he's going to keep doing these stupid, stupid things.

Boy, you really don't like Bill Gates!

Re:Please don't go groveling to him

[Anonymous Coward]

Nice try HUMA ABEDIN. I know that's your account.

Re:Please don't go groveling to him

[StormReaver]

It's going to affect each and everyone of us in subtle and not so subtle ways. It already has.

This statement is like Astrology: so vague that it applies to everything.

Would you mind elaborating on your theme that it's going to hurt us? I'm always open to the possibility that I'm missing something (even something painfully obvious), but I like the idea of gutting the entire H1B Visa program.

Re: Please don't go groveling to him

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude, that's Huma Abedin. Show some fucking respect.

Re:Please don't go groveling to him

[Anonymous Coward]

Lots of bashing but no proof of the bash.

#EpicFail

Re:Please don't go groveling to him

[JustNiz]

Typical dem argument based on nothing but hysterical emotion.

Have you any actual evidence to back up your ridiculous claim that he's doing this just to punish people and feel more important?

Re: Please don't go groveling to him

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually I think he understands the world very well, as a bad dirty tribalism overloaded place where western white people where delusional to think that they can use their idealistic view of kumbaya to everyone not belonging to the culture where the humanist thinking was born and raised, that's the sad but factual reality, multiculturalism in a world dominated by tribalism and religious radicalism is cultural and racial suicide.

Re:Please don't go groveling to him

[H3lldr0p]

Because trade isn't solely about making the rich richer.

It's also about creating ties at the human level. The level where people matter and count. See? Immigration is the best way to safeguard a nation against attack. Who wants to attack their own? Those nations that restrict their immigration don't have that protection, they don't have the reasons to not do stupid things and wage war against their neighbors.

By having this program, we get some pretty smart people to come here and start families. We get them used to the idea of how nice we have it and either they find a way to stick around or they take those ideas back home with them. If they stick around? That's beautiful. It helps us. Them becoming a citizen or green card holder only makes all that better. And if they return? Where do you think ideas for the student protest at Tiananmen square came from? Or the urge for the Arab spring? It came from having a taste from a work or student visa.

War sucks. War is bad. We want to avoid war, any war, at just about any cost.

And so does under-employment. I know because I've been there. So does seeing someone you know doing better because of seeming random chance.

But war sucks more. Cutting off routes for immigration starts us down that road as a nation. Fewer people will come here. Fewer people will have a reason to avoid thinking poorly of us. Which are just further steps down that road towards war.

Immigration pays for itself many times over. Not just economically but in very real, very social ways.

Re:Please don't go groveling to him

[LostInTaiwan]

Trump is openly picking individual winners and losers in the business world. By naming specific companies like Boeing and GM, instead of setting more generic industry wide rules, Trump's action is the very definition of crony capitalism. Yes, there are procurement problems in the defense industry, but why attack the F35 program and not the littoral combat ship (LCS) program.

Perhaps Trump likes to mouth off with only a superficial knowledges of whatever he happens to hear on the cable news, or perhaps people around him are using inside knowledge to capitalize on the subsequent market valuation of those publicly traded companies.

Slowly but surely, Trump's actions will diminish US's worldwide competitiveness and standing, much like Obama's inactions. However, Obama does not have a history of predatorial financial and gender behavior.

Re:Please don't go groveling to him

[cayenne8]

Immigration is the best way to safeguard a nation against attack. Who wants to attack their own? Those nations that restrict their immigration don't have that protection...

Wow..just...wow.

When did you come up with this little ditty..and do you actually believe that....?

Re:Please don't go groveling to him

[bluefoxlucid]

It's also about creating ties at the human level. The level where people matter and count.

Save your bleeding-heart bullshit and point out that trade makes the poor richer.

Re:Please don't go groveling to him

[BigBuckHunter]

He couldn't care less about you or I or how well we are employed. Neither can anyone else in his administration. Don't fool yourself into thinking that is a good thing. It's not. It's only going to hurt us more and more each day it goes on. It's going to hurt the prestige of the nation. It's going to hurt the economic prospects going forward. It's going to affect each and everyone of us in subtle and not so subtle ways. It already has.

My employers solution to this issue:

Fire all of the US staff and massively expand the branch in India. My last day is Feb 7th after 13 years on the job. Thanx Don!

Re: Please don't go groveling to him

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes it pays off by basically the extinction of local culture customs and habits it is the equivalent of introducing a non native specie in a new habitat where the existing inhabitants get wiped afterward, it means extinction of the local fauna and flora

Re:Please don't go groveling to him

[bobbied]

That's what he wants. It's what he needs to feel important and the more you give into it, the more he's going to keep doing these stupid, stupid things.

Here is a guess, you haven't actually read the order have you?

The order specifically says that the various departments involved may grant exceptions to the general rule as they see fit. Meaning Trump said "Don't call me, do what you have to do." Which is pretty much the opposite of the micromanager you describe Trump to be. He will likely never know or care that one of his underlings has granted or refused Microsoft their wish.

So your little fit here about Trump really is more about your perceptions of Trump and your feelings about this order than reality. He may be brash and abrasive, but that doesn't mean he is all the bad things you project onto him...

Re:Please don't go groveling to him

[Anonymous Coward]

Pretty sure re-electing Obama was not a choice. Wasn't on my ballot, anyway.

Re:Please don't go groveling to him

[Anonymous Coward]

On the contrary, I think Obama cared deeply about pussies.

and puppies and bunnies.

Re:Please don't go groveling to him

[lgw]

What you suggest is true, but really only applies to other nations over the long term, and only to those with sane leaders at that. Trade of all sorts helps prevent war.

But that's not the problem we face today. This threat is "Islamic terrorism", and while terrorist groups are funded by certain nations, those states aren't openly invading us or anything. Islamic terrorists killed around 27,000 people just in 2016 - the sort of casualty numbers you get from a mid-sized war. The war is ongoing, too late to prevent it.

And even large wars do happen in the face of good trade and so on. Everyone in WWI had good trade relations with one another. In WWII, Hitler didn't care whether he was attacking "his own".

Banning travel from a nation you're annoyed with is a very traditional diplomatic move, a way of saying "your nation has pissed our nation off" that has no casualties. It's a much more mild step than, say, airstrikes. It may not have been the best move in this case, but it's a perfectly legitimate one.

Re:Please don't go groveling to him

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sorry, but you sound like a bitter ex-girlfriend.

Re:Please don't go groveling to him

[TheGratefulNet]

so....

your boss is just doing the needful, eh?

Re:Please don't go groveling to him

[JustNiz]

>> Immigration is the best way to safeguard a nation against attack.

Tell that to the Jews who moved to Germany prior to WW2.

Re:Please don't go groveling to him

[Anonymous Coward]

i agree. its pathological, and the roots of it are not conscious. he is probably thinking that people who DONT do what he does are either idiots, weaklings or insane. hes not a normal human being, and anyone with an ounce of common sense can see that. 60 million americans are too full of hate to think their decsions out to their conclusion.

Re:Please don't go groveling to him

[TheSync]

Everyone in WWI had good trade relations with one another

Not everyone. Much of Western Europe belonged to a highly interdependent subsystem of states in which crises arose but were resolved peacefully. By contrast, economic interdependence was much shallower in most of Eastern Europe and parts of Central Europe. The Ottoman Empire, Serbia, Austria-Hungary, and several other newly independent Balkan states traded relatively little with each other. Unlike in the interdependent West, crises in this region tended to escalate to war.

It is no coincidence that World War I was sparked among the non-interdependent states in Eastern Europe. Economic ties played an important role in averting escalation to major warfare in the crises that led up to the Great War, especially in the first and second Balkan wars. These crises, however, produced the need for the more economically integrated countries, most importantly Germany and Russia, to demonstrate an increasing resolve to support their weaker, less interdependent, allies, Austria-Hungary and Serbia. Alliances tightened after Germany and Russia took turns backing down under the pressure of war in previous crises. Tighter alliances increased the leverage of Balkan allies, but only by in effect handing the foreign policies of the interdependent powers over to countries that were less well integrated into the world economy, and thus had fewer reasons not to engage in war.

Re:Please don't go groveling to him

[Anonymous Coward]

"He doesn't understand the world, or how it works"

Please, oh wise one, explain the entire world and its workings to us mere internet peasants.

I can almost see the tears pouring from my monitor as I read your heartfelt appeal to 'morality'.

Sometimes it hurts to win, I'm sure you have no idea what the concept of winning entails, but just know that sometimes it's not easy like your coddled soft life.

Re:Please don't go groveling to him

[Anonymous Coward]

This country takes in more immigrants than all countries in the world COMBINED.

The US literally does not need to take in everyone who wants to come here 24/7, sometimes it's okay to step back for a bit and let the melting pot do its work.

I know you have no concept of self-control and moderation, as I'm sure you're a 400 lb mountain dew chugging neckbeard who only wishes to get a pity kiss from someone in your women's studies class, so you'll just regurgitate anything they spew into you.

Maybe step outside your echochamber once in a while, there's a big world out there that literally doesn't care about your feelings.

Re:Please don't go groveling to him

[Anonymous Coward]

"Prestige of the nation" oh good lord. You mean the fucking 1 percenters?
USofA HAS no prestige.

Re:Please don't go groveling to him

[Anonymous Coward]

Solyndra ? Obama tried to be a businessman... but at best he could only be a part time magician. He magically made $1,000,000,000 disappear trying to pick winners and losers.

At least Trump HAS the credibility to run a business. Wait.. should be count Obama's stint as a drug dealer? I mean that's a business... right?

Re:Please don't go groveling to him

[shutdown -p now]

Keep in mind that Microsoft is also providing legal assistance to the State of Washington in their lawsuit against this EO (as do Amazon and Expedia).

So this is more of a "here's how we can settle this peacefully, but if you don't want to, we'll see you in court".

Faustian bargain

[Anonymous Coward]

Jokes on you MS. Making deals with the government to usurp American privacy (OneDrive, Skype, PRISM) and you think you'll get special treatment?

Hahahaha get rekt

[Anonymous Coward]

Micr$oft can suck it. Hire american or else.

Why?

[ASCIIxTended]

I highly doubt that Microsoft has many non-replacable workers from Iraq, Iran, Syria, Yemen, Sudan, Libya and Somalia in their employ that are actively traveling to their homelands. I also doubt they are going out of their way to hire refugees from these countries. If these people like their jobs then let them become citizens.

Re:Why?

[skids]

Probably the majority of people who work on visas "actively travel to their homelands" to visit family, or because their job involves actually interacting in their homeland. Microsoft also sells internationalized products, so they have a great need for native language speakers pretty much world wide.

Re:Why?

[nomadic]

"If these people like their jobs then let them become citizens." I'm sure a lot of them would like to do so, but are prevented right now.

Re:Why?

[m00sh]

I highly doubt that Microsoft has many non-replacable workers from Iraq, Iran, Syria, Yemen, Sudan, Libya and Somalia in their employ that are actively traveling to their homelands. I also doubt they are going out of their way to hire refugees from these countries. If these people like their jobs then let them become citizens.

Everyone's replaceable.

But, you'd still try and stand by and help your co-workers.

Re:Why?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's devastating to certain teams. Yes, there aren't many employees from Libya, to use that as an example since a friend of mine is Libyan and a director at Microsoft, but like many teams do at Microsoft, he fired all of the white males he could and replaced them with fellow Libyans. So while there's not many individuals from those countries, they can often be a large percentage of a single team.

It's even worse on the teams lead by an Indian or Chinese person. They clean house quickly and replace the workers with everyone they can that speaks their language. Once a team has about 2/3 native speakers of the same language, it becomes impossible for Americans to compete. That's what happened on my team at Microsoft before I quit. It was 10% south Indian, but once we hired a VP from Chennai (southern India), all of the north Indians were fired and the white males driven off. When I left, the team was about 80% south Indians that spoke Tamil.

Re:Why?

[Anonymous Coward]

> they have a great need for native language speakers pretty much world wide.

Ahhhh, if only someone could come up with a way to transmit voices from one place to another. Maybe someday....

Re:Why?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why do translators need to travel? If you need to translate something you get the text as a file, translate it & send it back.

Re:Why?

[93 Escort Wagon]

Why do translators need to travel? If you need to translate something you get the text as a file, translate it & send it back.

You apparently don't realize this, but it's not uncommon for people to speak directly to each other - in person.

(except my daughter, who would probably be texting her friends even if they were standing two feet away)

Re:Why?

[Anonymous Coward]

The only thing microsoft is trying to help is their bottom line. Fuck H1B workers and fuck pieces of dogshit like you that support them.

Re:Why?

[shutdown -p now]

Have you ever looked at what it takes to become a citizen? It's not like you can just say "I wanna be a citizen", and get it. There are waiting periods before you can even apply - 5 years on a green card (shortened to 3 in some circumstances). And then, of course, obtaining a green card first takes several years also.

The vast majority of people who come from other countries to work at Microsoft want to become citizens, and eventually do become them - and Microsoft assists them with that process all along the way, providing lawyers and paying fees. But it takes time. Most, if not all, of the people affected by this EO were people undergoing that process.

And why wouldn't they be actively travelling to their homeland? It's where their parents live, in most cases. Also, depending on the country and the visa, you sometimes have to travel to renew said visa, or renew your passport.

Bad policy

[Anonymous Coward]

First they came for immigrants but I am not an immigrant. Then they came for Muslims, but I am not a Muslim. Then they came for me... Oh wait - I work in Tech so screw the rest of you, all is well...

Microsoft do not compromise on bad policy. Do not ask for an exemption. Oppose bad policy or you are just as responsible as Trump for its implementation.

Re:Bad policy

[bobbied]

Haven't actually taken the time to READ the order have you? Come on, it's not that long. Go find it on the White House's website...

THEY are not coming for anybody, immigrants, Muslims, or you.. All the order does is "pause" entries from specific countries until a vetting system can be put in place that has some hope of figuring out who these people are we are letting in. It does not mention Muslims (or any religion) and will NOT cause the deportation of anybody already legally here (or illegally for that matter). Plus it is time limited to 90-120 days, at which time everything returns to what it is now unless it's renewed.

What's your beef with this?

Re:Bad policy

[Anonymous Coward]

What's your beef with this?

Not the original anonymous coward but I'll have a go...

No one really knows what parts are temporary and what parts will be permanent. But if it's really temporary then it does very little to improve US security. Let's assume that within a few months Trump puts in place some great new immigration reforms that no one else had ever thought of that make the USA 100% completely safe. And, of course, once these reforms are in place presumably Trump could kick anyone out who came in before the ban - but hadn't gotten around to doing their terrorist thing yet. So the question then is whether anyone would have entered the USA in the next few months and carried out a terrorist attack right away. Well, it's not impossible but the rate of terrorist attacks, by foreigners at least, is very very low. And, of course, Trump's ban didn't include the usual countries that foreign terrorists come from: Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, and Egypt. If any Saudis are planning anything in the next few months, they've got the green light from Trump: he's not stopping them.

The underlying point is that Trump's ban is like quack medicine snake oil - that tastes really bad and has some nasty side effects - but doesn't actually cure the patient.

Maybe you grew up in a family where everyone lied their asses off. And then, since you grew up to be someone who lied your own ass off, the only people who would be your friends also lied their asses off. So you've only ever known people who lied their asses off. Maybe you don't know what honesty and integrity actually look like because you've never known anyone with those qualities.

So maybe when Trump lies his ass off about his quack medicine snake oil that all looks normal to you. Maybe you're like "Well, he is really screwing over those Syrian refugees and you don't screw people over that badly for no reason - so he must really be keeping me safe."

I know it won't get through to you - and will just piss you off. But I'll give you a little hint about life: there are actually people out there who are honest - people who define truth in terms of factual observation and logical reasoning rather than intimidation and deception. And if you ever managed to become honest enough yourself that such people would be your friends then your life would be a whole lot better.

Re:Bad policy

[Anonymous Coward]

"will NOT cause the deportation of anybody already legally here"

Unless you go on vacation to Canada and don't get let back in. Or were on vacation when Trump wrote the executive order. Or Trump writes another executive order while you're on your next vacation. Then you're screwed. Trump doesn't care if you have a US spouse and mortgage, he's happy to kick you out.

Re:Bad policy

[Anonymous Coward]

First they came for the Latinos, Muslims, women, gays, poor people, intellectuals and scientists and then it was Wednesday.

take a hike

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey Microsoft (and the others): How about you hire some of your American workers back?!?

Re:take a hike

[Altus]

Yeah because its so easy to hire qualified tech people these days, particularly in the major tech hubs where the unemployment rate for tech workers is incredibly low.

Re:take a hike

[WillAffleckUW]

depends on quals. for example, virtually anyone with a PhD in a related field could easily work there, and most people with Masters in a close field. And anyone with a decent Bachelors. But MSFT is ageist, so ...

(yes, I turned down five job offers to work directly for them, I know the lifestyle)

Re:take a hike

[micahraleigh]

I know several tech workers in the research triangle park area NC who can't get jobs because they are over 50.

microsoft wont make america great again

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows XP made America SUCK
This company sucks and should not be given any more special privileges

Wrong Approach to Trump

[Anonymous Coward]

Its should go more like this.. Oh.. Great Obi-Wan, Help me Obi-Wan.. your my Only Hope!

All Visas Must now be approved via Twitter

[Anonymous Coward]

No Exceptions! Only direct appeals to the President will be considered.

Re:An immigrant CEO

[Anonymous Coward]

These tech companies certainly should be nationalized for their assets, and upper management be made personally liable for the debts.

Re:An immigrant CEO

[__aaclcg7560]

How qualified would Eric Trump be if his last name wasn't Trump?

Re:An immigrant CEO

[Anonymous Coward]

This is what happens when you put immigrant as CEO of > $500 Billion dollar company. Time to replace with a white American born qualified people like Eric Trump.

Are you trying to kill the company?

One Law For All

[zenlessyank]

Or no law at all. Make up your mind or we will make it up for you.

Re:One Law For All

[bobbied]

Obama sure had the "no law" part down... Got slapped in the courts for his immigration EO's, and not just some injunction, he lost the case outright. He was found to have altered immigration law with his EO which a president simply can not do.

At least Trump's EO's have the backing of law, regardless of that one injunction by the misguided judge in NY...

Re:One Law For All

[zenlessyank]

Whooosh

Nice try

[JustNiz]

>> Such individuals are low-risk --

Nice deflection attempt by Microsoft, but Its not about terrorism, its about taking jerbs from US workers.

Re:Nice try

[bfpierce]

Stop sucking at interviews and you'll get one.

Re:Nice try

[MobyDisk]

Unlikely. The countries are: Libya, Syria, Iran, Iraq, Sudan, Yemen, and Somalia. The total sum of US visa workers from those countries is probably very low. Probably most of them are hired *because* they came from those countries. They probably do something specific to that country, like translation, marketing, distribution, or legal, and as such can't readily be replaced by an American worker.

Re:Nice try

[__aaclcg7560]

Probably most of them are hired *because* they came from those countries.

Most of the Iranians I know in Silicon Valley were refugees from the 1978 Iranian Revolution. They speak fluent English and do the jobs that any American can do.

Re:Nice try

[MobyDisk]

They should be citizens by now, so the ban shouldn't affect them.

Re:Nice try

[__aaclcg7560]

They should be citizens by now, so the ban shouldn't affect them.

The original ban applied to green card holders traveling outside of the United States.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/02/politics/donald-trump-immigration-ban/index.html

Re:Nice try

[MobyDisk]

Right. I said "citizen" not "green card holder."

Re:Nice try

[Anonymous Coward]

Been my experience that the reason I didn't get the job was BECAUSE I wouldn't suck it, but keep living in your black and white world.

Re:Nice try

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sure if they knew a travel ban was coming, they might have considered filing the paperwork before!

I know many foreigners in the US who have waited multiple decades before applying for citizenship for any number of reasons.

Re:Nice try

[Mashiki]

Stop sucking at interviews and you'll get one.

Hard to get one when your skills say you're worth $110k-180k/year and they want to pay someone to do the same job for $31-41k/year who will fuck everything up along the way. Sorry, but nobody except those who are desperate will willingly take a paycut like that.

Re:Nice try

[shutdown -p now]

Can you point at the line in the executive order in question where it says it's about jobs?

Re:Nice try

[JustNiz]

Can you point at the line in the executive order in question where it says it's about terrorism?

Re:Nice try

[shutdown -p now]

Sure. Except it's not a line, it's more like the entire order.

Section 1. Purpose. The visa-issuance process plays a crucial role in detecting individuals with terrorist ties and stopping them from entering the United States. Perhaps in no instance was that more apparent than the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, when State Department policy prevented consular officers from properly scrutinizing the visa applications of several of the 19 foreign nationals who went on to murder nearly 3,000 Americans. And while the visa-issuance process was reviewed and amended after the September 11 attacks to better detect would-be terrorists from receiving visas, these measures did not stop attacks by foreign nationals who were admitted to the United States.

Numerous foreign-born individuals have been convicted or implicated in terrorism-related crimes since September 11, 2001, including foreign nationals who entered the United States after receiving visitor, student, or employment visas, or who entered through the United States refugee resettlement program. Deteriorating conditions in certain countries due to war, strife, disaster, and civil unrest increase the likelihood that terrorists will use any means possible to enter the United States. The United States must be vigilant during the visa-issuance process to ensure that those approved for admission do not intend to harm Americans and that they have no ties to terrorism.

In order to protect Americans, the United States must ensure that those admitted to this country do not bear hostile attitudes toward it and its founding principles. The United States cannot, and should not, admit those who do not support the Constitution, or those who would place violent ideologies over American law. In addition, the United States should not admit those who engage in acts of bigotry or hatred (including "honor" killings, other forms of violence against women, or the persecution of those who practice religions different from their own) or those who would oppress Americans of any race, gender, or sexual orientation.

Sec. 2. Policy. It is the policy of the United States to protect its citizens from foreign nationals who intend to commit terrorist attacks in the United States; and to prevent the admission of foreign nationals who intend to exploit United States immigration laws for malevolent purposes.

Sec. 3. Suspension of Issuance of Visas and Other Immigration Benefits to Nationals of Countries of Particular Concern. (a) The Secretary of Homeland Security, in consultation with the Secretary of State and the Director of National Intelligence, shall immediately conduct a review to determine the information needed from any country to adjudicate any visa, admission, or other benefit under the INA (adjudications) in order to determine that the individual seeking the benefit is who the individual claims to be and is not a security or public-safety threat.

Full time RV for the win.

[Anonymous Coward]

I make 90k a year.
Paid 6k for a 5th wheel.

Right now my rent is $500 for the pad and that includes free wi-fi...plus, I own the thing I live in. Its not pretty but who cares.

comparisons

[harvey the nerd]

We rented an urban, asian, 4500 sq ft house for ca $1400/month in 2012. The lot it was on was worth about $3 million.

You just have to know how to shop...

Gotta Think That....

[maz2331]

Applying the order to those already in possession of visas and green cards sure looks like the DHS bureaucracy doing a mini-rebellion by applying the EO to its most extreme levels, rather than using good legal reasoning based on due process. It's clear from the text of the EO that they were to implement it "to the extent allowed by law" which does not permit abuse of discretion. Sometimes people in agencies will cynically implement an order in a way as to inconvenience those it isn't intended to cover to generate outrage.

Re:Gotta Think That....

[fiannaFailMan]

Applying the order to those already in possession of visas and green cards sure looks like the DHS bureaucracy doing a mini-rebellion by applying the EO to its most extreme levels, rather than using good legal reasoning based on due process. It's clear from the text of the EO that they were to implement it "to the extent allowed by law" which does not permit abuse of discretion. Sometimes people in agencies will cynically implement an order in a way as to inconvenience those it isn't intended to cover to generate outrage.

Quite right. It's all the agencies' fault. The buck doesn't stop in the Oval Office at all.

Re:Gotta Think That....

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't know how government agencies work? I'll tell you from the inside.

When an order comes down that the agency does not like, such as a new rule or a budget cut, we create an implementation that will hurt the public the most. This tactic has been used by every agency for generations. We want the public to get mad so we can get a higher budget and rules that we like. If congress cuts our budget to curtail our spending, we don't fire administrators or reduce expense account caps, we cut public services. Only citizens that depend on us feel the pinch.

Government agencies intentionally hurt the public to get their way. The DHS overstepping the bounds of executive orders as a selfish, pseudo false-flag operation is business as usual.

Re:Gotta Think That....

[Anonymous Coward]

What else would you have them do?

Trump pushed out a executive order late Friday and the DHS had no clarification over the weekend.

Either it was a move intended to create as much chaos and controversy as possible, or it's grossly incompetent leadership. You choose.

Re:Gotta Think That....

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, when the agency is deliberately breaking the law, yeah, hmm ... clearly Trump's fault that DHS employees deliberately broke the law in an effort to make him look bad. Would you give the military a pass and blame Obama if they had done the same thing 8 years ago?

Re:Gotta Think That....

[Anonymous Coward]

Nice theory for the pro-Trump advocates, but have you actually read the order? Here, let me help.

A copy of the order can be found here (feel free to ignore editorializing if you think the source is bias): http://www.npr.org/2017/01/31/512439121/trumps-executive-order-on-immigration-annotated

The relevant section is "I hereby proclaim that the immigrant and nonimmigrant entry into the United States of aliens from countries referred to in section 217(a)(12) of the INA, 8 U.S.C. 1187(a)(12), would be detrimental to the interests of the United States, and I hereby suspend entry into the United States, as immigrants and nonimmigrants, of such persons for 90 days from the date of this order (excluding those foreign nationals traveling on diplomatic visas, North Atlantic Treaty Organization visas, C-2 visas for travel to the United Nations, and G-1, G-2, G-3, and G-4 visas)."

Don't try to spin this that poor Trump is the victim of the sabotage of the civil service (which in turn would need to be purged). It seems very clear that DHS is doing exactly what President Trump asked them to do.

Re:Gotta Think That....

[david_thornley]

I've seen mention of laws that forbid this practice entirely, so I'm not sure what "the extent allowed by law" is. In any case, it's Trump's responsibility as President. If he can't deal with that, he shouldn't have run in the first place.

Re:An immigrant CEO

[Anonymous Coward]

He wouldn't, he can't negotiate himself out of a paper bag.

Re:Throw 'em all out!

[aicrules]

No it wasn't...troll

MS Willing to take responsibility?

[Anonymous Coward]

Trump should ask this MS 'Chief Legal Officer' if he's willing to take legal & financial responsibility for the individuals MS wants to be let in to the country in the event they commit a violent crime/terrorist attack? Their response would be enlightening.

I don't get it either.

[Okian Warrior]

Speaking as someone who has spent thousands of dollars in legal assistance getting the appropriate visa in place allowing me to work in the US (but luckily am not from one of the countries in the executive order)... go fuck yourself. This isn't about American jobs, its about screwing over people you don't like and trying to win political points with morons.

People have spent years getting those visas. People may have even been living the in US for decades. This is not a moratorium on new visas, this is retroactively screwing people who have followed the process to get into the US legally.

I don't get it either.

The order does not affect people from other countries, it doesn't affect people from your country, and it specifically doesn't affect *you*.

It doesn't affect 87% of all Muslims, so it isn't a ban, and it affects the 10% Christian populations of those countries and other religions, so it isn't a religious thing.

And the DHS has further clarified the executive order by saying that it doesn't affect green-card holders.

Furthermore, many countries don't allow immigration at all, and many other countries have onerous requirements to immigrate, so the US is not unusual in that regard. Obama banned immigration from Cuba, and Carter banned immigration from Iran with no fanfare.

The "no fanfare" bit - was that because Obama and Carter were Democrat? Or was there some other difference(*) that no one has noticed?

Muslims in the US have come out in favor of extreme vetting, some Muslim *countries* have come out in favor of the ban, and the president's approval rating has jumped 5 points.

Add in the fact that this is a temporary ban, that the order specifically directs the departments to sort it out, and that this was a campaign promise... it looks less like a fascist order and more like a reasonable and prudent order(*).

I *honestly* don't see why anyone thinks that this is a big deal.

It rather looks suspiciously like an issue of convenience - something people can protest without actually caring about which side they're on.

Is it anything else?

Can someone explain how this is anything to get worked up over?

(*) And for the record, Section 212(f) of the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1952:

"Whenever the president finds that the entry of aliens or of any class of aliens into the United States would be detrimental to the interests of the United States, the president may, by proclamation, and for such period as he shall deem necessary, suspend the entry of all aliens or any class of aliens as immigrants or non-immigrant's or impose on the entry of aliens any restrictions he may deem to be appropriate."

Obama used this same law at least six times between 2010 and 2014 against people in Iraq, Iran, Syria, and Crimea without even a whimper from the ACLU, ADL, John McCain, Gender Netural Graham, Chuck You Schumer, Hillary, Mark Zuckerberg, Hollywood elites, or the establishment globalist media.

Re:I don't get it either.

[Anonymous Coward]

I *honestly* don't see why anyone thinks that this is a big deal.

Let's say that you are entirely selfish - absolutely don't care about anyone other than yourself - and the number one thing you worry about for yourself is get shot by a Muslim refugee - as opposed to get shot by a fellow American - or killed in a car accident - or dying of cancer - or choking on a ham sandwich. Should you be concerned about Trump's ban? My answer is emphatic yes. One of the huge problems with the US immigration system is this notion of rejecting people at the border. By the time someone gets to the border all the vetting should have already happened. The only question should be whether they are actually the person who the visa was issued for. But then what about this "extreme vetting" that Trump keeps promising. How is that supposed to work? Sit down in a room with them and ask them if they're a terrorist? Here's a news flash: if they are, they're not going to tell you. In general, "extreme vetting" is quack medicine, snake oil, Trump lying his ass off with promises that are fundamentally impossible to deliver. The best chance for keeping terrorist out of America is to have already infiltrated their networks. Of course, this doesn't help with the lone wolves. But at least when the ones who are parts of known terrorist networks show up at the embassy asking for a visa you can avoid giving them one - although, if you're actually smart, you give them a visa and them the moment they set foot on American soil you arrest them for all the bad things they did as part of the terrorist network that you infiltrated.

But let's assume you're not entirely selfish. Let's assume that you look for opportunities to help people where a small act of kindness from your can make a huge difference helping someone out of a horrific situation. And let's assume that, as an American, you place a huge value on individual freedom - both your own and that of others who also yearn to be free. So you see this situation where government bureaucracies are keeping good decent people trapped in horrific situations by dictating where they can live and work and travel. You see a situation where if you were willing to take on a very small amount of risk, then good decent people could have the freedom to remove themselves from the horrific situations in which they are trapped.

If you were a kind and generous person who believed deeply in individual freedom then you would be deeply opposed to Trumps ban on Muslim refugees.

Re:I don't get it either.

[Cyberax]

The question is not about additional vetting and checks. The question is about the ban - it affects people who ALREADY hold visas and/or green cards.

Nothing terrible would have happened if Trump announced 80 days from now new rules to apply to new visa applicants. Instead we got an unexplained ban designed to throw red meat for Trump's rabid base.

Re:I don't get it either.

[OzPeter]

One of the huge problems with the US immigration system is this notion of rejecting people at the border. By the time someone gets to the border all the vetting should have already happened.

Unfortunately that is the way of immigration officials the world over and not just the USA. They have the absolute power to allow you to enter or stop you dead in your tracks.

Re:I don't get it either.

[dgatwood]

And the DHS has further clarified [redstate.com] the executive order by saying that it doesn't affect green-card holders.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it does. Who gives a crap about whether someone has a green card or not? There's no meaningful difference between a green card holder and an H1-B visa holder in terms of the impact on those people and their families when they suddenly are unable to return to their homes, to their families in the United States, etc. because of this idiotic and ill-conceived ban.

Obama used this same law at least six times between 2010 and 2014 against people in Iraq, Iran, Syria, and Crimea without even a whimper from the ACLU, ADL, John McCain, Gender Netural Graham, Chuck You Schumer, Hillary, Mark Zuckerberg, Hollywood elites, or the establishment globalist media.

By that same logic logic, I have no right to complain when a terrorist takes a car and drives over hundreds of people, because I use a car to drive to work....

There's a huge difference between not allowing a bunch of homeless refugees to permanently come to the U.S. (as President Obama did) and not allowing technology professionals who already live in the U.S. to leave the country on business trips and be able to get back in (as President Trump did).

President Obama used the law to limit the rate of refugee entry into the country, and only refugee entry. He did not cancel existing visas. He did not ban people who had a preexisting legal right to enter the U.S. That's the difference. And it's an important difference that has a real-world impact on real people's lives.

Re:I don't get it either.

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey everybody reading, just here to point out that this is a good example of "Soft racism" - Just in case siting breitbart and redstate aren't big enough red flags enough for you.

Responding to criticisms of racism by downplaying the target of said racism with notions that "It affects everybody and just just them" is a hallmark of the tactic. What follows is a dispute of numbers, then a denial of other facts. It's a modified version of "Soft hollocaust denial" who's hallmark opening starts with with similar tactics by removing jews as the target.

Re:I don't get it either.

[AthanasiusKircher]

Obama banned immigration from Cuba, and Carter banned immigration from Iran with no fanfare.

The "no fanfare" bit - was that because Obama and Carter were Democrat? Or was there some other difference(*) that no one has noticed?

First, there were some objections to the Obama action, but admittedly nothing like Trump. But the comparison is disingenuous, because what Obama did was end the "wet-foot dry-foot policy" that allowed Cubans who reached the US to get entry WITHOUT A VISA to request asylum. Trump, on the other hand, has banned people WITH VISAS, some of whom went through vetting processes for months or years.

In the equivalent case to Cuban refugees requesting asylum, the Cuban refugees were allowed entry with NO VETTING. In Trump's case, the vetting process for most refugees who now HAD VISAS has taken about TWO YEARS, including approvals from multiple security agencies.

As for Carter, we had an active hostage situation where diplomats from the US were being held by a foreign government. And even then, Carter did NOT CANCEL VISAS that had already been granted. He stopped new visa approvals and in some cases required recent Iranian immigrants to undergo additional screening upon arrival. There was no automatic cancellation of approved visas.

I've used this analogy before, but to take this into a different context, if Obama and Carter were running a business, what they effectively did was stop new applications for jobs, and perhaps require a bit of additional verification for those already hired. The equivalent for Trump in terms of many refugees would be if you were negotiating with a business for a new job for 2 years, underwent significant interviews for security clearances, had medical testing, etc., and you'd been approved for everything, bought your plane tickets to relocate, made arrangements for a new home where the company was... and then suddenly your hiring contract was summarily rescinded while you were in transit.

Add in the fact that this is a temporary ban

Yeah, a lot of people keep saying that as if it's some sort of minor inconvenience. Setting aside that some refugees are applying for such status while in FEAR for their lives, you also have all sorts of logistical issues that were simply tossed aside here. Many of the approvals for security or medical or whatever tests are done with a specific timeline in mind, and many of them expire over a period of a few months, essentially putting these people "back to the drawing board" after months or years. And what about all the refugee organizations in the U.S. who organized apartments and places to live for these people, etc.? There a hundreds of other little details that make this a MAJOR disruption within a system... not just a minor "temporary" inconvenience.

Can someone explain how this is anything to get worked up over?

Here's are a couple things, besides issues I already brought up above:

(1) What are Trump's actual problems with the vetting system right now? What are his suggestions for improvement? Is there ANYTHING specific he can point to that he intends to change about the vetting? If there were some major flaw in the two-year multiple-agency process for refugee approval we have now, I'd be right on board with you in saying, "Let's slow it down and see how to fix it." But Trump hasn't actually identified anything in our screening procedures he thinks are flawed or need reform. So why the sudden rush into this outright ban, disrupting a system that he doesn't have any specific criticisms of?... other than for the political capital with his supporters?

(2) If this REALLY were about fear of terrorism and proper "vetting," why are countries that actually have PRODUCED terrorists (e.g., Saudi Arabia) not on this list? If it were really so dire that we needed to cancel travel plans for thousands and thousands of people over the next few months, why aren't we looking int

Re:I don't get it either.

[Anonymous Coward]

What Obama and Carter didn't do, that Trump is doing, was to retroactively rewrite the rules for people who had already jumped through the hoops, invested a lot of time and money in making sure they were squeaky-clean and legal beyond reproach... ... and are now seeing all that work blown away.

Trump is screwing those people, and there is absolutely zero plausible gain in public safety from doing so. Why is he doing it?

Because it plays well with his base. And he's a cunt. Question answered.

Re:I don't get it either.

[lgw]

A green card is a permanent US resident, on "tenure track" for citizenship. Green card holders are special. They are citizens-to-be. Good for them. This is very different from a temporary work or holiday visa.

This order in no way prevents families from being re-united. The border still works just fine in the other direction. No citizen of a foreign country has any basic right to cross the US border inbound. The most fundamental thing that makes a nation a nation is the ability to limit who crosses its borders.

I get it. Globalism is very popular. Lots of people love the idea of a world without borders. Sorry, but lots of other people actually like their nation, and want to restore sovereignty. This executive order was ham-fisted, poorly done. IMO Trump should have left things alone until the better vetting was sorted out.

This was virtue signalling over effective policy, but Trump was totally within his rights to do so. And after 24 years of lefty virtue signally over effective policy, I can hardly blame the right for wanting to strut a little.

Re:I don't get it either.

[Anonymous Coward]

The Jews were a large target of the Holocaust, but the other victims - about 50% (slightly less, I think) - are often overlooked. It's not a bad thing to be more inclusive.

Re:I don't get it either.

[Anonymous Coward]

President Obama used the law to limit the rate of refugee entry into the country, and only refugee entry. He did not cancel existing visas. He did not ban people who had a preexisting legal right to enter the U.S. That's the difference. And it's an important difference that has a real-world impact on real people's lives.

I currently have and have had several US Visas in the past. None of them were anything close to a legal right to enter. It is a requirement to enter, but by no means a guarantee that passage will be granted. I know people with valid student visas who were advised not to leave the country between graduation and start of a job following the completion of the degree under Optional Practical Training (which allows you to work for one year after graduating.

I am not taking sides on this issue (I think it is not as dramatic as people's reactions make it seem), but I find your stand did. A ban on travel for immigrants with visas has a real world impact on real people's lives, but preventing refugees from entering does not? Why are these immigrants with visas more deserving of their right to travel than immigrants of war torn countries are of their right to refuge?

Re:I don't get it either.

[MobyDisk]

I *honestly* don't see why anyone thinks that this is a big deal.

Imagine that you had lived and worked in the US for 5 years, were on a plane to return home to the US from the Sudan, arrived, then were turned down entry and sent back. You would think it is a big deal!

It doesn't affect 87% of all Muslims, so it isn't a ban.

I think you mean to say it is not a "Muslim ban." Agreed there. It is just a "ban."

And the DHS has further clarified the executive order by saying that it doesn't affect green-card holders.

This is the really heart of the problem, and the reason it is a big deal. As-written, the executive order didn't say anything about green-card holders or visa holders. It was only after it was challenged, and courts intervened, that sensible discretion was added. Trump wrote the executive order too broadly, probably since he rushed to do it and didn't solicit advice from the state department. As a result, people got screwed, the courts had to intervene, and we gave ammunition to ISIS. 5 minutes with someone from the state department would have fixed these issues, and I would be defending the ban along with you.

Obama used this same law at least six times between 2010 and 2014 against people in Iraq, Iran, Syria, and Crimea without even a whimper

There was no outrage because he didn't stop green card holders and visa folders, he didn't stop people mid-flight, and he used it during a time of war.

So now you can say you know why people think it is a big deal. Hopefully, next time Trump issues an executive order he will seek appropriate legal council before writing it.

Re:I don't get it either.

[RyoShin]

Out goes the moderations, then.

it affects the 10% Christian populations of those countries and other religions

It does affect them, by giving them a special exemption:

(b) Upon the resumption of USRAP admissions, the Secretary of State, in consultation with the Secretary of Homeland Security, is further directed to make changes, to the extent permitted by law, to prioritize refugee claims made by individuals on the basis of religious-based persecution, provided that the religion of the individual is a minority religion in the individual's country of nationality. Where necessary and appropriate, the Secretaries of State and Homeland Security shall recommend legislation to the President that would assist with such prioritization.

This is, in practice, Christians. (Muslims are the majority, other religions are almost non-existent in the given countries.)

(*) And for the record, Section 212(f) of the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1952:

And, for the record, Section 202(a) of the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965 :

No person shall receive any preference or priority or be discriminated against in the issuance of an immigrant visa because of his race, sex, nationality, place of birth, or place of residence

Emphasis mine. I haven't read the whole 1965 version, but unless there's a provision that creates exceptions for INA1952 212(f) I believe the 1965 version takes precedent. (There are exceptions to 202(a), but deal mainly with things like immediate relatives of citizens getting preference.)

Obama used this same law at least six times between 2010 and 2014 against people in Iraq, Iran, Syria, and Crimea without even a whimper from the ACLU, ADL, John McCain, Gender Netural Graham, Chuck You Schumer, Hillary, Mark Zuckerberg, Hollywood elites, or the establishment globalist media.

I'm a little fuzzy on the others, but at least the Iraq action in 2011 was in response to an actual threat, was not nearly as broad (applying only to pending applications), and wasn't even a proper ban (just a delay of approval while they re-evaluated the process.)

But, by all means, continue playing down 45's bullshit by shouting "but the other guy!"

Re:I don't get it either.

[Anonymous Coward]

While true, it's not the point. The "Soft" tactics rely on the way humans associate ideas. Sprinkle lies among facts and the lies become more palatable.

Re:I don't get it either.

[Anonymous Coward]

I imagine that immigration officials in most countries have the power to turn people away at the border. But the USA is the only country that I've been to that seems to make it a regular practice. For example, in Singapore I had a work permit so I just scanned my passport and thumbprint at the automated clearance station - there wasn't any opportunity for an immigration official to turn me away as long as my passport and thumbprint were in order. Then, in Indonesia they used to require a $25 visa-on-arrival fee but then they waived that when they wanted more tourists. Anyway, I vaguely remember that they asked the purpose of my visit to make sure I got the right kind of visa. But there was never any hint that they might send me back. And Italy was pretty much the same. Canada, again, they asked me the purpose of my visit but there was no hint that they were weighing whether to turn me away. I remember that the UK immigration was a bit more belligerent. But again, they just waived me on through.

On the other hand, while my wife, who has a "green card", hasn't yet been turned away at the US border - entering the USA always a very tense experience. There's a sense that if you don't answer all the question just exactly right then you're going to be sent back. And me, even as a US citizen have been sent off for secondary customs screening at the US border - something that has never happened at any other border. So. my experience is that, in practice, the USA is treats people much worse at the border than any other country I've been to - and this is all before Trump, of course.

Re:I don't get it either.

[Anonymous Coward]

There are an awful lot of Trump supporters fuming that Obama did "the same thing" even though he objectively didn't - if you check the facts nobody with an existing visa was kept out.

I wonder where Trump supporters are all getting this fake news from?

Re:I don't get it either.

[Anonymous Coward]

It doesn't affect 87% of all Muslims, so it isn't a ban, and it affects the 10% Christian populations of those countries and other religions, so it isn't a religious thing.

Section 5 (b) of the executive order:
"Upon the resumption of USRAP admissions, the Secretary of State, in consultation with the Secretary of Homeland Security, is further directed to make changes, to the extent permitted by law, to prioritize refugee claims made by individuals on the basis of religious-based persecution, provided that the religion of the individual is a minority religion in the individual's country of nationality."

Considering every one of these countries are majority Muslim, this is indeed a religious thing.

Muslims in the US have come out in favor of extreme vetting

And yet, more speak out in opposition.

some Muslim *countries* have come out in favor of the ban

Oh good. The countries who actually have originated people who commit terrorist acts on US soil in the past 40 years aren't upset because they weren't on the ban list. This makes the US safer how, again?

and the president's approval rating has jumped 5 points

So polls by media outlets with a conservative lean that support your position are trustworthy, but all others are "fake news" put out by the "mainstream media". Just want to make sure I've got the logic sorted out here.

And for the record, Section 212(f) of the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1952:

"Whenever the president finds that the entry of aliens or of any class of aliens into the United States would be detrimental to the interests of the United States, the president may, by proclamation, and for such period as he shall deem necessary, suspend the entry of all aliens or any class of aliens as immigrants or non-immigrant's or impose on the entry of aliens any restrictions he may deem to be appropriate."

Obama used this same law at least six times between 2010 and 2014 against people in Iraq, Iran, Syria, and Crimea

The act was invoked as a direct reaction to the civil war in Syria, the formation of ISIS, its subsequent offensive into Iraq, and the annexation of Crimea. All major regional events. The act was invoked this time to block entry by terrorists from countries with no recent major events. Technically the president has the power under the act to say, "only caucasian females with blonde hair weighing between 100 and 140 pounds may enter the US," but he still has to justify it.

Can someone explain how this is anything to get worked up over?

In the simplest terms, because executive orders that very blatantly do not help any of the things they say they are for are not a good thing.

Gender Netural Graham, Chuck You Schumer, Hillary, Mark Zuckerberg, Hollywood elites, or the establishment globalist media.

Well, that ended pretty predictably. At least the pro-Trump diehard posts are consistent in their straw man demonizing.

Re:I don't get it either.

[Anonymous Coward]

(1) What are Trump's actual problems with the vetting system right now? What are his suggestions for improvement?

If you listened to him comment on the EO, this would have been CLEARLY answered for you. Since CNN wants to make him look bad, and you are so clueless you can't even be bothered to look for his comments, you obviously don't really care either.
Trump is giving those countries 90 days to come up with a vetting system that his State Department deems acceptable. If they do not comply, the ban will be extended.

As for your Cuba thing, Obama ended a policy around for decades without Congressional approval, permanently. Trump's actions are for 90 days.
So you pitching a hissy fit over 90 days and giving a pass on a permanent ban shows again you don't really care, and are only really hear to bash Trump over bullshit that is meaningless because you have been fooled into thinking its valid.

Re:I don't get it either.

[quantaman]

I don't get it either.

The order does not affect people from other countries, it doesn't affect people from your country, and it specifically doesn't affect *you*.

To paraphrase a famous quote:

First they came for the Jews, and then some libtard do-gooder starts complaining so I said what are you whining about? You're not a Jew, you'll be fine!

Re:I don't get it either.

[Anonymous Coward]

You seem to miss that we have a lot of folks here that need jobs...we dont need non-citizens coming to work here. We have plenty of citizens we just need controls to keep those folks out that come in and work for less money. You seem to forget...this is OUR country not THEIR country.

Re:I don't get it either.

[Anonymous Coward]

it's an important difference that has a real-world impact on real people's lives

Refugees aren't real? Gosh, it's kind of neat that we're all well and good about everything going on until *it happens to someone we know*. Maybe you should get your head out of your ass and get on the phone with your house reps and get the law changed? It was obviously written with an immense amount of trust in the executive - trust that was misplaced.

Re:I don't get it either.

[AthanasiusKircher]

Since CNN wants to make him look bad, and you are so clueless you can't even be bothered to look for his comments, you obviously don't really care either.

I read the whole executive order. Did you?

Trump is giving those countries 90 days to come up with a vetting system that his State Department deems acceptable. If they do not comply, the ban will be extended.

That still doesn't answer my question, since we already have detailed vetting in place within the State Department and frequently including other agencies (depending on the type of visa or entry desired). What is wrong with our current procedures that justifies such a unilateral and sudden action, rather than simply reforming our vetting policies?

So you pitching a hissy fit over 90 days and giving a pass on a permanent ban shows again you don't really care, and are only really hear to bash Trump over bullshit that is meaningless because you have been fooled into thinking its valid.

Wow -- you really have no idea what you're talking about, do you? Cuba had been granted a SPECIAL EXEMPTION that essentially allowed those who managed to sail into Florida and landed to be granted entry without a visa and allowed to apply for asylum -- this was a policy unique to Cuba and unfair to other immigrants, who needed to go through "normal" legal channels for entry.

And Obama did NOT ban immigration from Cuba "permanently" -- Cubans are still perfectly able to immigrate to the U.S. Now they just need to follow the rules that all other countries do to do so. You can argue about what the original rationale was for allowing Cubans special treatment to get into the U.S. without vetting, but given the fact that our relations have improved in recent years, it seems positively weird to continue such a bizarre exemption for Cubans. Nobody was "banned" in that case -- just required to use proper immigration channels like everyone else.

Re:I don't get it either.

[TheSync]

The "no fanfare" bit - was that because Obama and Carter were Democrat? Or was there some other difference(*) that no one has noticed?

The difference is: 1) During the campaign, Trump explicitly called for a "Muslim Ban" and 2) the Trump ban caught people in the air off guard and lead to them being detained for hours under great uncertainty or unexpectedly deported.

If Trump had simply said "no new visas" instead of stranding people in handcuffs at airports, and if he did not already call for a Muslim Ban, few would care.

President of the United States is also Chief Marketing Officer of the United States. If you say stupid things and do stupid things, it makes the USA look bad. Obama, Clinton, Reagan all did a much better job than Trump, they were slick.

So elect a President who is slick, not one who is a dick...

Re:I don't get it either.

[TheSync]

This is, in practice, Christians. (Muslims are the majority, other religions are almost non-existent in the given countries.)

There are about 30,000 Bahai's and 25,000 Zoroastrians in Iran. Probably 400,000 African indigenous religious followers in Sudan.

Re:I don't get it either.

[Anonymous Coward]

I wonder where Trump supporters are all getting this fake news from?

Presumably they make the shit up on the spot. Just like Trump himself. Invent alternative "facts" to suit the message, and off you go. Very convenient.

Re:I don't get it either.

[Anonymous Coward]

International law permits persons to enter countries to request political asylum without prior permission. They may be deported.

Re:I don't get it either.

[dwillden]

And your last sentence proves you have zero reading comprehension. It is NOT a ban on Muslim refugees. It is a ban, or rather a delay on Refugees from seven nations (yes predominantly Muslim but not 100% Muslim). The Order affects all citizens of those nations regardless of their faith, including the heavily oppressed Christian and Yazidi minorities found in those nations (Yazidi are in Iraq and Syria not the other nations).

Re:I don't get it either.

[Anonymous Coward]

Carter actually not only stopped existing Visa's he ordered students and others deported.

Re:I don't get it either.

[dwillden]

Tell that to the Iranians working and studying here who were deported by Carter. He Retro-actively rewrote their visa's changing the end date to immediately.

Re:His approval rating has gone up

[Anonymous Coward]

You do realize his approval rating has jumped 5 points in the last week, right?

Is that the new Breitbart politically correct way of saying, "fallen"?

Microsoft's population

[unixisc]

Actually, how many employees does Microsoft have from Syria, Iraq, Iran, Sudan, Yemen, Somalia and Libya? I thought that most of their foreign employees would be people from Europe, China and India, who are untouched by this order (which applies only from the above countries)

Re:Microsoft's population

[OrangeTide]

There are not a lot of IT jobs in Yemen, so tech workers from there almost always work outside of their home country.

Re:Microsoft's population

[PrescriptionWarning]

WRONG. http://www.snopes.com/presiden... Obama's deal only increased the time it took to get a certain type of visa. It didn't ban them outright as this is doing.

Re:Microsoft's population

[bondsbw]

Obama's ban was a targeted response to a specific threat, where two Iraqi nationals were caught attempting to send money, explosives, and weapons to Al-Qaida. That ban was enacted in order to review how the vetting process allowed those individuals into the country.

Regardless, I don't see Microsoft being "outraged". They are making a specific request for providing exemptions to those who have been vetted, and the executive order allows exemptions to be granted at the discretion of administration officials.

Re:Microsoft's population

[gmack]

Iran has a very functional university system and the company I work for employs several techs of Iranian decent. Libya also had (before the civil war) a highly functional educational system and I know one (from my circle of friends) engineering grad student from Libya. It's not hard to imagine a company the size of Microsoft running into even more issues since they tend to pull talent from wherever they can find it.

Re:Microsoft's population

[Anonymous Coward]

Obama's ban didn't impact green card holders, who are legal US Citizens. Do you understand that? Do you understand that Obama's order was specific to a loop hole of flying through Europe to avoid the additional scrutiny of coming from one of those countries?

In general the missing outrage that your kind like to blame others for wasn't missing, it was that the GOP's fake outrage and blocking and in general constantly crying "Wolf" that made it nearly impossible for any of the things that we all as American's agree was bad to get any traction. So thanks for that.

Re:Microsoft's population

[Anonymous Coward]

While many of the details are classified, those rigorous procedures, which lead to waiting times of 18-24 months for many Iraqi and Syrian refugees

Trump's ban is 90 days, which is significantly less than the Obama-era waiting periods.

Re:Microsoft's population

[Anonymous Coward]

Why are you trying to out-logic MrLogic? Well, MrLogic17. You're just bring your facts to the discussion when MrLogic17 is using (swallows steaming pile of Trumpspeak) alternate facts!

Re:Microsoft's population

[Anonymous Coward]

Obama didn't ban or delay people who already had existing visas and cards. Trump and his staff haven't got a fucking clue what they did as evidenced by the number of clarifications and reclarifications and sackings that have happened in the last week.

Re:Microsoft's population

[Anonymous Coward]

That ban was enacted in order to review how the vetting process allowed those individuals into the country.

That is literally the same thing happening here.

Are people honestly so naive as to ignore the ISIS training ground in Syria and Yemen, where the last batch of terrorists came from? Or the insanity in Europe where Islamic Terrorism is becoming freakishly normal, but no one can call it what it is? A tractor trailer plows through 80+ people and I guess it was just a bad day for that guy? Let's not comment on where he came from because that's mean spirited and you had better not describe his motives, if they happen to be religious?

I thought the liberal crowd was above religion. It seems like liberals only enjoy mocking Christianity, while being literally afraid to discuss Islam (radical or not, because they will literally kill you if you draw Mohammad). Islam is a religion stuck in the Dark Ages, which Christianity fortunately crawled out of centuries ago.

The same nations that are blocked also block Jews from entering their countries. We're simply doubling down on ensuring that anyone coming from there isn't an intolerant, vitriolic sociopath. The media is portraying this as Islamophobia and to some degree it is, but it's also completely justified. One person that slips through can literally murder 50 people before we can stop them, as we observed with the club shooting in Florida (who was a naturalized citizen and the son of a Taliban supporter, who we also allowed into the US).

The ban is stupid in that it blocks people with visas, as Microsoft points out, and any Green card holder. But, frankly, how many people beyond that are impacted? For those that actually work in tech: look around your coworkers and count the number of people from these nations? I work for an international technology company with employees from over 30 countries. Guess where we have none from? These backward nations. Guess what we do have? Muslims that actually assimilated into their host nations (during either their generation or their parent's generation).

So before everyone blows a gasket, let's be realistic: fix the mistake where people that should be allowed back can come back, but beyond that the blockage is really quite reasonable and it impacts at-best a few hundred people across the industry screaming the loudest. It's a short duration and it impacts people that have no right to come here just because they want to come here.

All nations should be looking out for their own best interests and not blindly accepting anyone. Germany is a prime example of what happens if you don't, and Merkel is likely going to lose reelection as a result. I don't care if you're immigrating to the US from England: if you're not going to add value, then there's no reason that the US should reasonably accept you. And, to be ultra-clear, it's far more likely that someone from a first world country is going to add value than someone from a third world country that is stuck in the middle of a war with radical terrorism, while under the rule of dictators (or equivalent).

Re:Microsoft's population

[bondsbw]

That ban was enacted in order to review how the vetting process allowed those individuals into the country.

That is literally the same thing happening here.

No, it isn't. Obama's ban was a response to a specific threat. Trump's ban is a response to partisan hacks who refuse to acknowledge that a vetting process was already in place.

It seems like liberals only enjoy mocking Christianity

I'm a Christian.

intolerant, vitriolic sociopath

I'm glad you can see what kind of man he is... ... oh wait, my bad, you weren't talking about him.

All nations should be looking out for their own best interests and not blindly accepting anyone.

I'd love to discuss your evidence that the U.S. has recently been accepting refugees into the country without vetting.

if you're not going to add value, then there's no reason that the US should reasonably accept you

There are humanitarian reasons. It's not ideal... but war isn't ideal. At least it is better than nuking ISIS from orbit (along with the millions of innocent civilians in the area).

Re:Microsoft's population

[Anonymous Coward]

Obama accomplished a long soft ban. Trump is aiming for a short hard ban.

The sackings were of leftovers from the previous administration.

Re:Microsoft's population

[multi io]

Obama accomplished a long soft ban.

Obama did not ban visa holders or other legal US residents. How often does one have to explain this before you understand it?

Re:Microsoft's population

[unixisc]

In that case, why was Obama's ban 6 months, and Trump's ban 3-4 months?

Re: Microsoft's population

[Anonymous Coward]

His summary is pretty accurate. While it's true Obama's admin did not ban anyone, the statement more accurately describes the situation. Obama restrictions reduced the rate down to numbers between 2000-6000/month, reducing acceptance rate by say 95-97%.

The core issue is really the rationale behind the changes. One action was the direct result to discovery of a system that had let known terrorists through. The other action was to to provide an illusion of fulfilling a campaign promise to bigoted voters through means of propoganda.

While both are situations are disappointing, one is disturbing.

Re:Microsoft's population

[Hognoxious]

Obama's wasn't retroactive.

Yeah, big scary foreign word. It means it didn't apply to people who already had visas.

Re: Microsoft's population

[Anonymous Coward]

Obamas "ban" was also in response to a direct threat, when two Iraqis where arrested in the US that were known to make bombs used against US soldiers in Iraq.

The purpose was to make sure the vetting procedure was stringent enough.

Re:Microsoft's population

[currently_awake]

I expect programmers and computer techs from Syria would be willing to work very cheap if it included moving them and their family to the USA.

Re:Microsoft's population

[TheSync]

There are about 300,000 Iranian-born Americans.

Re:Microsoft's population

[bongey]

WRONG SNOPES IS BULLSHIT, ABCNEWS clearly has a state department quote that they stopped ALL refugees processing for 6 months, which would be visas. http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/...

Re:Microsoft's population

[bongey]

BULLSHIT YES HE DID http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/...

Re:Microsoft's population

[bongey]

So we need to wait until someone blows us up on US soil then we will do something? Funny how many times does that happened , and everyone goes WHY DIDN"T THE GOVERMENT DO ANYTHING?, ( because of dipshits like you complaining about silly ban for 90 days)

Re:Microsoft's population

[stooo]

>> I thought that most of their foreign employees would be people from Europe, China and India
Yeah.
"Most"
When you have 120 000 employees in the world, you have people from basically each and every country, so you are really pissed off when they are banned from travelling by some crazy troll.

Re:Microsoft's population

[red crab]

Actually, how many employees does Microsoft have from Syria, Iraq, Iran, Sudan, Yemen, Somalia and Libya? I thought that most of their foreign employees would be people from Europe, China and India, who are untouched by this order

As per TFA:

Microsoft has an employee who is stranded outside the U.S. while the person’s children are here, and another who cannot leave the U.S. to visit a critically ill parent, Smith said in the letter. The company said it has 76 employees who, together with their 41 dependents, have nonimmigrant visas to live and work in the U.S. and are affected by the Executive Order.

Re:Microsoft's population

[gtall]

"mocking Christianity". And could you please point to the outrage from Christian Fundamentalists? Seems to me their Christianity stops at the water's edge. I do not believe the CFs are Christians.

Re:Microsoft's population

[dwillden]

And this EO doesn't impact green card holders either. Yes some were impacted on the initial bungled implementation, but it actually says nothing about green card holders who are resident aliens not immigrants. Those initially impacted and detained should not have been. That was an error in application of the EO, not something actually contained in the EO.

Re:Microsoft's population

[dwillden]

So move them to Microsoft offices in Egypt or other nations in the region. They don't have to come to the US to work for Microsoft. It is a Global company with Offices around the globe.

Re: Microsoft's population

[bondsbw]

No, but we also don't need to start banning entry into the country because all your Twitter followers don't understand that there already is an effective vetting process in place.

Fearing terrorism is, definitively, what they want us to do. Letting it control our lives and letting it change everything we do is letting them win.

Re:Microsoft's population

[the_B0fh]

Because it doesn't jive with what he has been told to say.

Re:Microsoft's population

[the_B0fh]

All nations should be looking out for their own best interests and not blindly accepting anyone.

I'd love to discuss your evidence that the U.S. has recently been accepting refugees into the country without vetting.

Come on, he has ALTERNATIVE FACTS on his side man! Give him a break! 18 months and at least 9 rounds of interviews and countless background checks, those are plainly just blindly accepting of everyone!

Re:Microsoft's population

[the_B0fh]

And this EO doesn't impact green card holders either. Yes some were impacted on the initial bungled implementation, but it actually says nothing about green card holders who are resident aliens not immigrants. Those initially impacted and detained should not have been. That was an error in application of the EO, not something actually contained in the EO.

Bullshit. The original application of it included a directive from the White House to specifically include green card holders. The Alternative Facts are strong with you.

Re: Microsoft's population

[Anonymous Coward]

Green card holders are not citizens. They are permanent residents. There is a difference.

Re:Microsoft's population

[david_thornley]

We're simply doubling down on ensuring that anyone coming from there isn't an intolerant, vitriolic sociopath.

So, why does the order only apply to Middle Eastern countries whose citizens have not committed an act of terror on US soil within memory? Why not include at least one whose citizens come and been terrorists?

Re:Microsoft's population

[david_thornley]

Apparently we don't do anything when someone blows us up on US soil, since citizens of the restricted countries haven't done that, so we only ban people who aren't likely to be terrorists.

There's also the question on what the government can do. One recent mass shooting was performed by someone the FBI was keeping an eye on, just not a 24/7 guard.

Blame thrower

[Okian Warrior]

A friend of a friend on Facebook is Iranian by birth. She has lived 20+ years in Australia and is an Australian citizen. She has also previously lived 5+ years in the UK and is now in the middle of a 5+ year stint in the US. She does not have a green card but is working in the US under a valid US work visa (but I don't know which class). She has had to cancel 5 international business trips in the short term because as per Trump if she leaves the US the immigration lawyers at her work have said as a best guess that she won't be able to re-enter.

How's that for fucking over your friends.

Or maybe, just maybe, the Iranian government screwed her over?

Re:Blame thrower

[OzPeter]

Or maybe, just maybe, the Iranian government screwed her over?

By your logic anyone who is Iranian by birth* is tainted and thus should be treated with distrust, and there no is manner by which they can prove their humanity.

Pissing off innocent people is not a good way to win hearts and minds and plays directly into the hands of those who would be easily radicalized. Thus making the global terror situation worse than it is now.

*Is there a lower age limit by which an Iranian is so tainted? Or in your mind does terrorism begin at conception?

Re:Blame thrower

[Anonymous Coward]

Pissing off innocent people is not a good way to win hearts and minds

Try telling that to the idiot protestors who think that standing in the middle of the highway is somehow productive towards their goals.

Re:Blame thrower

[Anonymous Coward]

Or maybe, just maybe, the Iranian government screwed her over?

Lucky for you, the rest of the world does not take that view, or there would be a lot of Americans getting screwed over by retaliatory immigration rules right now.

Re:Blame thrower

[wyHunter]

That wasn't at all what he said. It's the actions of Iran supporting and exporting terrorism that caused the US government to do this per statement. (Whatever this is true or not, I couldn't say). Unfortunately, Yanks are considered brash and obnoxious world over, even if we aren't. Congruent issue, though of course, her issue IS larger.

Choos your own Trump Adven^H^H^H^H^H tweet

[Anonymous Coward]

1) Microsoft thinks it's special, perhaps you can tell me how many H1B's you have

2) Microsoft thinks it's special, perhaps US vs. Microsoft Corp should be revisted #OpenSourceWindows

After my election "It was as if millions Slashdotters suddently cried out in terror, and were suddenly silenced"

Who cares?

[Anonymous Coward]

Approval ratings are like the popular vote:

Who the fuck cares? It's meaningless.

Take a look at Congress' approval rating. Then look how many of those fuckers have been there forever.

Senior executives caught up in the mess

[fiannaFailMan]

I heard yesterday about a senior executive at Oracle who regularly travels internationally to places like China for meetings with suppliers. He manages about 500 people. He's now stuck in the country and unable to do a large part of his job because he happened to be born in Iran. "Make America Great Again" my ass.

Re:Senior executives caught up in the mess

[MobyDisk]

Do you have a name? A link to an article? It's believable, I just want to show this to some people.

Re:Senior executives caught up in the mess

[Anonymous Coward]

It is Oracle. He deserves all of the pain.

Re:Senior executives caught up in the mess

[Anonymous Coward]

That's exactly Bannon's plan. Squash the ability of the senior exec to do their job? Bannon is delighted. Bannon wants that exec fired so a non-Muslim American can take their job. Bannon doesn't want Muslims in the US, legal immigrants or no.

Re:Senior executives caught up in the mess

[Anonymous Coward]

That's complete bullshit.

This dude will be totally comfortable in either Singapore or London (or wherever else he wants) - and can easily do his job from either location. Hell, if he wants to be in the same timezone easy enough to be in Canada or the Americas.

THIS is not the kind of guy that has a problem with this order. Sob stories about refugee visas and shit are far more real.

Re:Senior executives caught up in the mess

[Anonymous Coward]

Bingo!
But its not just muslims.
He doesn't want any foreigners, at least not any non-white/non-christian foreigners.

Re:Senior executives caught up in the mess

[TheSync]

Oracle co-founder Bob Miner is the son of Iranian immigrants. But I don't think that is who you are thinking of.

Re:Senior executives caught up in the mess

[Anonymous Coward]

I heard yesterday about a senior executive at Oracle who regularly travels internationally to places like China for meetings with suppliers. He manages about 500 people. He's now stuck in the country and unable to do a large part of his job because he happened to be born in Iran. "Make America Great Again" my ass.

But it's Oracle you're talking about. I'd say anything that interferes with them automatically helps Make America Great Again!

Re:Senior executives caught up in the mess

[Anonymous Coward]

That's just part of it - in the UK we were told of a case of a British vet who went on holiday to Costa Rica, but because she was born in Iran she wasn't allowed to fly home because her flight transitted via a short stop-over in the US. She instead had to find £2600 to buy flights via other countries to make it home days later instead.

The fact is that this means the US is no longer a trustworthy transport hub. I will definitely no longer take flights that transit via the US because I've got literally no idea what Trump is going to get a bee in his bonnet about next - there's no point me taking a flight to Costa Rica, or Belize, or a number of other places in South America we've considered diving via the US because I've got no guarantee anymore that Trump isn't going to decide one day he hates these countries because they wouldn't let him build a new Trump tower or whatever and ban all flights there meaning I suddenly can't get home.

Given that the US has been, to date, the largest transport hub in the world, then this sort of action could have a real impact on an industry that's pivotal to the US' place in the world - the fact people and goods fly via the US even if they don't stay is key in cementing the US as a central place in the world - it allows the US to act as a gateway to everywhere, which means it gets to know about, spy on, and control a sizeable proportion of the world's flow of goods and people.

The damage he's going to do to the US economy is pretty obvious a mere 2 weeks into his presidency, and that should worry every American. I'm sure he'll hope to mask it by pushing ahead with the infrastructure spending he's long been talking about along with his wall build, which will certainly stimulate economic growth, but it'll do so at the expense of increasing debt, and with America's already precariously high levels of debt then that should make people in the US rather worried also, this isn't exactly a guy who worries about going bankrupt, only unlike executives at the bank he can easily bully, major lenders such as China probably wont be so forgiving.

Re:Senior executives caught up in the mess

[strikethree]

I heard yesterday about a senior executive at Oracle who regularly travels internationally to places like China for meetings with suppliers. He manages about 500 people. He's now stuck in the country and unable to do a large part of his job because he happened to be born in Iran.

So what you are saying is that there is an upside to this. Note the bolded word in the quote. ;)

Re:Senior executives caught up in the mess

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course he doesn't have any hard information. This is another bullsh*t lie pulled out of a liberal's ass to smear the president.

Re:Senior executives caught up in the mess

[fiannaFailMan]

He lives in the San Francisco Bay Area with his family. He would NOT be comfortable "just" moving to Singapore or London.

Kill Zombies

[Anonymous Coward]

Nuke Seattle!

hahahaha

Re:Throw 'em all out!

[Anonymous Coward]

The foolish America you knew has changed for the better.

I know what they'll try and get an exception for

[viperidaenz]

They want to get an exception for the new $130,000 minimum wage for H1B workers.

Re:An immigrant CEO

[Anonymous Coward]

It was sarcasm. I thought slashdotters are smart enough to auto detect it without an explicit tag.

Re:His approval rating has gone up

[Anonymous Coward]

Source? Gallup has his approval looking pretty flat (it dipped down to 42% for a couple days before going up to 43%).

Highly doubt this goes through

[Anonymous Coward]

I highly doubt anything becomes of this. It would essentially be Trump admitting he's wrong. If there's one thing I know about rich people, it's that they hate that. Very unlikely these people will be able to get an exception granted.

Microsoft keeps shooting itself in the foot

[Anonymous Coward]

See my subject: MS, you want low wage menials from offshore so your upper mgt. & stockholders profit. It's obvious.

So is your fail using them creating debacles like Vista onwards & your stupid ribbon interfaces and start screens (not to mention memmgt fuckups that manifested in ViStA on file copies etc.).

* You gave away you're FAILING in your plans by FORCING the Win10 update onto users - that & spying telemetry nobody quite KNOWS what the contents of are either.

(Nobody is buying - you're killing yourselves & your favorite color has become 'transparent' as you're bs is EASY to SEE RIGHT THROUGH!)

Above ALL else? Take care of your OWN fellow Americans, you traitors that don't understand a fundamental of economics in what is paid here generally gets spent here keeping the economic engine locally running!

APK

P.S.=> This is from me, practically (formerly) the "poster child for 'Windows fanboy'" on /. - I hate seeing good things go bad/stupid, but you're doing it (It's Windows 7 for me unless you straighten out, stop spying on users, & concentrate on SECURING your OS allowing users to use options in interfaces they choose to use (not stupid ribbons vs. menus users for decades used))... apk

Sure, MS! What Risks?

[BlueStrat]

Microsoft is asking U.S. officials to grant exceptions for law-abiding, visa-holding workers and students from President Donald Trump's immigration order, channeling the outrage expressed by many in the technology industry with a proposed solution. From a report:

Such individuals are low-risk -- having already undergone a rigorous vetting process

Yeah, like the San Bernadino shooters or the Tsarnaev brothers.

How many lives is MS willing to risk to save a few percent on labor costs?

Strat

Re:Sure, MS! What Risks?

[__aaclcg7560]

Never mind that the chance an American will be killed by a foreign-born refugee is 1 in 3.64 billion.

http://www.businessinsider.com/what-is-the-risk-of-being-killed-by-a-foreign-terrorist-trump-ban2017-1

Re:Sure, MS! What Risks?

[pixie.pt]

Never mind that the chance an American will be killed by a foreign-born refugee is 1 in 3.64 billion.

http://www.businessinsider.com/what-is-the-risk-of-being-killed-by-a-foreign-terrorist-trump-ban2017-1

fuck logic, right?

Re:Sure, MS! What Risks?

[BlueStrat]

Never mind that the chance an American will be killed by a foreign-born refugee is 1 in 3.64 billion.

How much do those odds mean to the victims and their families of the WTC, San Bernadino, the Boston Marathon attacks, and others?

Strat

Re:Sure, MS! What Risks?

[Anonymous Coward]

The San Bernandino shooters were American and Pakistani. The Tsarnaev brothers were Russian(USSR) and Kyrgyz(USSR). Please explain to us how those people are relevant again? I think people would be much more sympathetic to the order if it targeted the people we've actually been attacked by, Saudis and Egyptians, especially since the 9/11 attacks were explicitly mentioned in the text.

How much fear are you willing to live with for your false sense of security?

Re:Sure, MS! What Risks?

[__aaclcg7560]

How much do those odds mean to the victims and their families of the WTC, San Bernadino, the Boston Marathon attacks, and others?

Shit happens. You're more likely to die from obesity (30,000 people per year), lightning strikes (10,000 people per year) or from being attacked by a shark (five people per year).

https://www.buzzfeed.com/awesomer/20-things-that-kill-more-people-than-sharks-every

Re:Sure, MS! What Risks?

[__aaclcg7560]

fuck logic, right?

Not at all. We just need to put everything perspective. Closing the borders and blaming foreigners isn't going to make America great again.

Re:Sure, MS! What Risks?

[moeinvt]

"chance an American will be killed by a foreign-born refugee is 1 in 3.64 billion."

I realize that the odds are extremely low, but that statement is ridiculous. They can't possibly have the data to make that calculation. In order to determine the odds of an American being killed by a foreign born refugee(1975 -2016), they would need a list of every single refugee that has entered the country since ... say ... 1900 (any refugee that could have been living in 1975). Does that data even exist? Then, they would need to be able to match that list of names with 40 years of crime records to find every single murder committed by every single refugee.

I think the study was focused exclusively on Americans being killed by refugees in "terrorist attacks", i.e. disregarding murder, manslaughter, negligent homicide, etc.

Re:Sure, MS! What Risks?

[__aaclcg7560]

I realize that the odds are extremely low, but that statement is ridiculous. They can't possibly have the data to make that calculation. In order to determine the odds of an American being killed by a foreign born refugee(1975 -2016), they would need a list of every single refugee that has entered the country since ... say ... 1900 (any refugee that could have been living in 1975). Does that data even exist? Then, they would need to be able to match that list of names with 40 years of crime records to find every single murder committed by every single refugee.

You obviously haven't read the article. Here's a direct link to the study.

https://www.cato.org/publications/policy-analysis/terrorism-immigration-risk-analysis

This policy analysis examines foreign-born and immigrant terrorists and so excludes American-born terrorists except for purposes of comparison. For attacks planned or carried out by native-born Americans in concert with foreigners, the Americans are excluded and the immigrants are credited entirely for the terrorist plots and murders. That choice increases the estimates of the harm caused by foreign-born terrorists. For plots that included many foreign-born terrorists and victims, each terrorist is credited with an equal number of victims. For instance, the 1993 World Trade Center attack was committed by six foreign-born terrorists; six people were murdered, so each terrorist is responsible for one murder. Airplane hijackings that started in the United States and ended in different countries — such as the September 10, 1976, hijacking of TWA Flight 355 by Croatian nationalists that eventually terminated in Paris, France — are also included. However, this analysis excludes terrorist attacks in which the identities of the perpetrators were unknown, as well as attacks that occurred or were intended to occur (but were not successfully carried out) abroad.

Re:Sure, MS! What Risks?

[marquisdepolis]

Fair point. I guess we should add american and kyrgyz citizens to the list.

Re:Sure, MS! What Risks?

[BlueStrat]

Shit happens.

I'd like to see you walk up to those victim's family members and tell them that.

You're a sociopathic monster.

Strat

Re:Sure, MS! What Risks?

[__aaclcg7560]

Shit happens.

I'd like to see you walk up to those victim's family members and tell them that.

Why would I? Just because I work in IT doesn't mean I'm an asshole outside of work.

You're a sociopathic monster.

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." — Benjamin Franklin

Re:Sure, MS! What Risks?

[Anonymous Coward]

Never mind that the chance an American will be killed by a foreign-born refugee is 1 in 3.64 billion.

http://www.businessinsider.com/what-is-the-risk-of-being-killed-by-a-foreign-terrorist-trump-ban2017-1

This is not taking into account the Europeans already being killed by foreign-born refugees on a monthly basis + the fact that Obama had a refugee surge planned to hit 2017. Past performance only predicts the future if circumstances stay the same.

Re:Sure, MS! What Risks?

[Anonymous Coward]

Never mind that the chance an American will be killed by a foreign-born refugee is 1 in 3.64 billion.

http://www.businessinsider.com/what-is-the-risk-of-being-killed-by-a-foreign-terrorist-trump-ban2017-1

Sorry, your number is complete nonsense. The current population of the United States is roughly 300 million. At least one American has been killed by a foreign born refugee. Therefore the chance of an American being killed by a foreign born refugee is at least 1 in 300 million,.

Re:An immigrant CEO

[tsqr]

How qualified would Eric Trump be if his last name wasn't Trump?

He has terrific qualifications. Everybody agrees, he has fantastic qualifications. So there's no problem with his qualifications, believe me.

Confusion, illogic, and belligerence

[golodh]

@freeze128

Your response has all the confusion, illogic and belligerence of a typical Trump supporter.

(1) If the objective really were to protect the US job market in the most efficient way ... then mr. Trump would simply have reduced the quota for H1-B visa. Only he didn't. Or he would have ensured that H1-B visa applicants get the same salary as US workers (removing their economic advantage in one sweep and pricing them out of the market). He didn't.

(2) If he wanted to protect the US job market from foreign competition within hours, rather than waiting for the visa application process to have an effect, he would have had someone find out what the largest contingent of immigrants is and he would have retracted some of the H1-B visa from India or China. He didn't.

(3) If he'd wanted to "protect" US security, he would still have admitted e.g. those with a valid visa who _served the US army_ as interpreters and guides for years (thereby risking their lives and that of their families) ... went through an intensive screening process ... and finally got a visa as reward for their services. He didn't. He hung them all out to dry and sent a message to the world: "America's word is worth *nothing*. Don't trust its promises, and don't serve its cause when it asks for assistance because no matter what you're promised the next (or current) president might wipe his backside with promises made". Well done mr. Trump. America needs no credibility and no friends ... after all ... you can't *have* any friends if it's "America First", right?

So it's more than likely he wasn't trying to "protect" anything but his right-wing image. He is also (as usual) trying to bait the powerless by slashing something they need... and waiting for those duped to raise their voice so he can double down on what he did, trample on them, and gloat.

Coming from him ... we understand. It's who the man was, is, and ever will be.

What gets me however is those supporters trying to justify his mean-spirited stupidity. Not be being smart, tough, creative, and shameless (like Mrs. Conway) but simply by totally confusing the issue so that meaningful discourse is swamped by people using caps to make a point that isn't.

Re:Throw 'em all out!FTFY

[zlives]

The America you knew has changed for the racist.

Bull.

[Anonymous Coward]

Chinese manufacturers will make any unauthorized material substitution they think they can get away with. Here's a nicely documented case http://www.ceramicindustry.com/articles/95272-materials-substitution-fraud-a-cautionary-tale-for-ceramic-manufacturers

And shame on you for trying to claim that the Chinese manufacturers who put melamine in milk were "told to" do that by the companies who contracted with them.

From one billionaire to another

[Anonymous Coward]

Surely a little compassion, Donald. It's going to hurt my bottom line. Let me give you a little something for your trouble.

-Satya

Outsourcing US Immigration Policy to Iran

[Anonymous Coward]

It is worth pointing out that Iran does not generally cancel citizenship of people you leave the country.
So your friend is almost certainly a dual citizen of Australia and Iran even if she does not want to be.
By refusing entry to anyone with Iranian citizenship our minority president has effectively handed over control of US immigration policy to Iran.
So much for "america first."

Solyndra

[Anonymous Coward]

Its not like Obama at all. Oh wait, he gave tons of money to "solar" companies run by his buddies and quickly went into bankruptcy after getting hundreds of millions from the Federal Government.

I know, you never heard of Solyndra, or all the other ones that got a total of $2.2 billion with NOTHING to show for it.
Yea, but naming a specific company is MUCH worse than giving them billions of taxpayer money.

Oracle CEO On Trump Transition Tream

[Anonymous Coward]

Serves Oracle right. The CEO was on Trump's transition tream.

its about slashdot idiots

[Anonymous Coward]

The goal of a corporation is to raise the share price. No else. IT MUST GO UP every quarter FOREVER or the CEO is fired.

ignorant idiot knows nothing of S corporations

If they've already got...

[mhkohne]

Visas, then MS should probably be taking this up with the courts as well - several courts have ruled on keeping various holders out already, if the people in question already have visas then I bet MS could get a court to rule in their favor long enough to get their people into the US.

Good

[Anonymous Coward]

GTFO. Either live in the US full-time as a citizen, or find work in your own country.

Re:Senior executives caught up in the mess?

[nicoleb_x]

Wow! Troll much?

Kill H-1B and Zombies

[Anonymous Coward]

Make CEOs have to file flight plans (manifests) and go through pre-flight and post-flight screening with TSA including all baggage!

Then kill the H-1B visa program ... dead.

"The Head On Fire" at M$ and "Pikachu" at Google would have a hissy fit!

Ha ha

Re:An immigrant CEO

[Anonymous Coward]

They have to get the new employer to petition on their behalf. Good luck finding a new employer who knows you are prone to leaving your current employer.

http://www.h1base.com/visa/work/h1b%20visa%20transfer%20to%20a%20new%20employer/ref/1169/

Crap

[Anonymous Coward]

"channeling the outrage expressed by many in the technology industry with a proposed solution"

The only people channeling[sic] the outrage are large companies who see their gravy train of cheap, indentured foreign workers falling off a cliff. I suspect US workers who are being shafted might feel a little bit different about it.

MS can take a long walk off a short pier.

[sethstorm]

As much as they have abused guest worker provisions to the detriment of citizens, the only valid response is to deny them an exemption.

They've a better chance of getting results than

[sabbede]

protesters making a ruckus in airports and inconveniencing people who have nothing to do with it.

Re:I know what they'll try and get an exception fo

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft's H1B hires already get paid more than $130k. Microsoft likes this rule because it reduces competition on the lottery and therefore makes it easier to get H1Bs for overseas hires.

At least make an effort to understand what industry salaries are.

LCS is already toast

[Anonymous Coward]

Given the problems in developing the original modules (Surface warfare is the only one done, the Sub warfare and minesweeping packages are ridiculously behind schedule and may cost as much as one of the ship platforms when done), the fact that the "default" original ship, regardless of hull form, only has two weapons--one is a 57mm that costs 5x or more than Oto Merlara's 76mm (including 3P 57mm ammo) while doing less per shot and the other is a RAM launcher that can't be reloaded at sea (a double whammy with the LCS-even's smaller missile count in the SeaRAM). Throw in the massive screw ups in building LCS-1 & 2, the horrible fuel usage and reliability rates, the concern that both will "burn down" a la USS Belknap if used in actual combat scenarios, and a lot more stuff I can't go into in a public forum many of my colleagues do not want more (even as a missile target replacement for FFG's). We have coast Guard cutters and costal patrol ships that are better tactical platforms. The only saving grace is the large flight deck of the LCS-even combined with speed and low draft is probably very good for SOCOM missions--but we don't need a fleet of them for that.

This raw suckage is why the internal name for LCS is Little Crappy Ship, and why the Small Surface Combatant program is now being started.

-- Nothing herein represents opinions or views of the US Government, the US Navy, USSOCOM, USMC, or any other formal group and should be taken as the sole opinions of some random AC and not a civilian or active military person.

Re:An immigrant CEO

[micahraleigh]

What did Obama accomplish before getting elected?

What did he accomplish after getting elected?

Please don't include that speech at the DNC convention as an accomplishment.