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The Gig Economy Celebrates Working Yourself to Death (newyorker.com)

Writing for The New Yorker, Jia Tolentino documents stories of several people -- a nine-month pregnant Lyft driver, for instance -- who contribute to companies that work on the model of gig economy. Through these tales, Tolentino underscores an increasingly growing pattern in the Silicon Valley (and elsewhere) where companies offer hard-labor contracts to people, pay them peanuts (with little liabilities), and yet find a reason to celebrate their business and encourage more to come onboard. From the article: Fiverr, which had raised a hundred and ten million dollars in venture capital by November, 2015, has more about the "In Doers We Trust" campaign on its Web site. In one video, a peppy female voice-over urges "doers" to "always be available," to think about beating "the trust-fund kids," and to pitch themselves to everyone they see, including their dentist. A Fiverr press release about "In Doers We Trust" states, "The campaign positions Fiverr to seize today's emerging zeitgeist of entrepreneurial flexibility, rapid experimentation, and doing more with less. It pushes against bureaucratic overthinking, analysis-paralysis, and excessive whiteboarding." This is the jargon through which the essentially cannibalistic nature of the gig economy is dressed up as an aesthetic. No one wants to eat coffee for lunch or go on a bender of sleep deprivation -- or answer a call from a client while having sex, as recommended in the video. It's a stretch to feel cheerful at all about the Fiverr marketplace, perusing the thousands of listings of people who will record any song, make any happy-birthday video, or design any book cover for five dollars. I'd guess that plenty of the people who advertise services on Fiverr would accept some "whiteboarding" in exchange for employer-sponsored health insurance. At the root of this is the American obsession with self-reliance, which makes it more acceptable to applaud an individual for working himself to death than to argue that an individual working himself to death is evidence of a flawed economic system. The contrast between the gig economy's rhetoric (everyone is always connecting, having fun, and killing it!) and the conditions that allow it to exist (a lack of dependable employment that pays a living wage) makes this kink in our thinking especially clear.

476 comments

  1. also in the news ... by dehachel12 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    companies report record profits and the rich get richer.
    guillotines are being prepared.

    1. Re:also in the news ... by fluffernutter · · Score: 2

      Good thing it takes longer to work someone to death if you're paying them a little bit. Slavery is for suckers.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    2. Re:also in the news ... by fluffernutter · · Score: 2

      The poor get a means to sustain themselves for the purpose of working. You know this is how they do it in china. Give them just enough to live and they remain beholden to you.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    3. Re:also in the news ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Counterpoint: no they don't

    4. Re:also in the news ... by Opportunist · · Score: 2
      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    5. Re:also in the news ... by Opportunist · · Score: 3

      They do? Where? Not even abroad. Even in China you don't have poors that get richer. You only have a small group of people who oppress the rest.

      It's heartwarming how quickly the commies have embraced capitalist ideals, ain't it?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    6. Re:also in the news ... by skids · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yet supposedly if you read other articles, we are moving towards a crisis where humans find themselves in a highly automated society without enough to do, work-wise.

      But then we increasingly have people so desperate for immediate financial gain they'll sacrifice their future, a technocratic wealthy elite more than happy to take the better end of that stick, and a populist movement of people so concerned about losing their jobs they'll sign on to just about any anti-immigrant platform no matter how odious.

      And on the flip side, even those who welcome immigrants always add "if you are willing to work really, really hard", not just "work".

      It's the overdeveloped puritanical work ethic colliding with technology colliding with economic and resource realities. What a schizophrenic nation we have become.

      But rest assured, the basic human need to complain about shit will be fulfilled in abundance.

    7. Re:also in the news ... by Hognoxious · · Score: 1, Offtopic

      Not every job out there, is meant to support you for a living.

      Superfluous comma removers make a packet, I heard.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    8. Re: also in the news ... by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Between the Bush recession and Obamanomics (that is, deliberately making it more costly to hire full time workers) people assume that incomes are chronically falling due to automation (in spite of evidence of this being anecdotal at best) and therefore you need to make burger flipping a career rather than a short term job, and therefore burger flippers should have the right to the same income as doctors, because they're human beings too.

      We can just call that "entitlement economics", and like communism before it, it will pass.

    9. Re:also in the news ... by PoopJuggler · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Another reason for UBI. It disincentivizes companies from acting like that and levels the playing field a bit for the workers.

    10. Re:also in the news ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Guillotines are being prepared alright - for Progressive heads.

      HAR HAR HAR

    11. Re:also in the news ... by whitroth · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You're a fool. The neighborhood kid isn't working in the gig economy - they're just trying to make a few bucks living at home, with parent(s). So, nice straw man argument there.

      The point of the study is that the "gig" economy is "you can work as little or as much as you want" is a way around labor laws, things like 40 hr weeks, paid time off, overtime. The "gig economy" is nothing more than a return to the 19th Century, where you're disposable labor, and if you make any noise other than "yessireeboss", you're out.

      This is *exactly* why people created unions. But you don't care... what, you have no life outside work? The rest of us *do* have a life....

    12. Re:also in the news ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Am I supposed to pay the neighborhood kid a living wage, offer a 401K and health benefits for just mowing my fucking lawn...?

      If you don't, who will?

      I'd be less antagonistic to you right-wing psychopaths if it weren't for the fact that (with the exception of roman_mir, who admitted that he expects the rich will release a plague to wipe out the unusable surplus labor once automation kicks in) you all refuse to admit "No, Mister Poor Kid, I expect you to die"

    13. Re:also in the news ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      is a way around labor laws, things like 40 hr weeks, paid time off, overtime.

      Don't want to work under those conditions? Don't. Unemployment is at extremely low levels - you have options.

      Sooner or later, the "gig economy" companies will find themselves unable to hire, and they will be forced to offer better incentives to potential employees to get them to sign up.

    14. Re:also in the news ... by cayenne8 · · Score: 0

      The point of the study is that the "gig" economy is "you can work as little or as much as you want" is a way around labor laws, things like 40 hr weeks, paid time off, overtime.

      No, it is a little something that has gone on for a LOOOONG time, but apparently many people somehow don't know about it these days...

      It's called contracting...aka independent contracting.

      It is perfectly legal and it has been around for a long, long time...

      Now...not every contract gig is something you make a living off alone. Many people make a living off of multiple contracts.

      With the exception of one W2 "gig" in the middle for a couple years, I've been working 1099 contracting and making a healthy living off it for the better part of 10 years or so.

      Now, do I take every "gig" I can? No. But the ones where I can negotiate a bill rate, and I do make big boy decisions as to how much I need...to cover paying my insurance, fund retirement, and yes to cover 3-4 weeks a year vacation/sick time off I allow myself (no work no pay, has to be calculated in)...I accept those contracts.

      I can assure you that I am not the only person out there doing this for a living...especially in IT.

      So, are you saying this should be done away with entirely? That just because some people mistake side gigs for full time employment, that those of us who can do and prefer to make our own decisions, work our own hours, work what jobs we want...should have this capability removed, so as to cater to the lowest common denominator?

      That's what I seem to hear you saying. Because a contractor, is a contractor, is a contractor....doesn't matter the duration of contract nor the bill rate.

      I consider myself the same work category as a Uber/Lyft or other contractor type work relationship, I just happen to make more money at the contracts I enter into.

      If I wanted, I could do Uber on the side too...I just don't need to.

      But I VERY much enjoy the freedom I have to make my working, investment and retirement decisions myself.

      What's wrong with that?

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    15. Re:also in the news ... by Hognoxious · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Great for you. Not everyone is as awesomely brilliant as you. But that's their tough shit, right?

      P.S. Still working on government gigs where you don't have to compete against H1Bs and offshore workers whose cost of living is 1/10th of yours?

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    16. Re:also in the news ... by kurkosdr · · Score: 1

      The Gig Economy in a nutshell: Have workers engage in a race to the bottom with each other over who can work the most hours for the least pay. Sorry, but that's where piece-work leads to, and that's what Uber and similar services lead to. Motto: Your grand-dad didn't get paid minimum wage when driving his horse-drawn hackney carriage, nor did he have employee benefits, and you shouldn't either when driving your Uber car(tm) Uber should be forced to pay minimum wage and have their drivers work only 8 hours. PS: No need for guillotines. The last time that was tried, the revolution got stolen by Napolen. All people need is to wake up and demand any workaround against minumum wage and 8-hour work (aka what Uber is) to be forced to comply with minimum wage and 8 hours...

    17. Re:also in the news ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So which is it, is he awesomely brilliant or simply sucking on the government teat? You leftists are so mired in contradictions...

    18. Re:also in the news ... by cayenne8 · · Score: 0

      Great for you. Not everyone is as awesomely brilliant as you. But that's their tough shit, right?

      I don't even remotely consider or promote myself as brilliant.

      I do tend to act like an adult when it comes to my working life, and I am responsible for myself.

      I expect the same from other working adults....you should be responsible for your life, work and family...and we really don't need any MORE govt. intrusion.

      If you are an idiot and can't be an adult..well, then yes...fuck'em.

      You gotta grow up some day, its a big old world that doesn't give a shit about you and you have to compete.

      I tend to try to rely on multiple sources of income and am always looking for new revenue streams.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    19. Re:also in the news ... by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      Even in China you don't have poors that get richer.

      Yes you do. Chinese incomes have quintupled over the last 20 years.

      It's heartwarming how quickly the commies have embraced capitalist ideals, ain't it?

      Communism gave them famine. Capitalism brought them prosperity. So it wasn't a hard decision.

    20. Re:also in the news ... by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      If anyone's full of contradiction it's you. I mean him.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    21. Re: also in the news ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You sound like a teenager. Haven't learned the ways of the world yet

    22. Re:also in the news ... by imgod2u · · Score: 1

      Actually, most of these gig companies aren't profitable. Even their CEO's are "rich" only in that they have a percentage of the theoretical value of their company.

      This is the natural state of things. The alternative isn't Uber pays all its drivers full-time minimum wage with benefits or pays them part-time. The alternative is Uber doesn't exist and those people have 0 income.

      I don't like the working conditions of the "gig economy". And I'm more than horrified at the glorification of it. Much like fast food work, it should be something to strive out of, not be in.

    23. Re: also in the news ... by imgod2u · · Score: 1

      Will it pass though? We didn't exactly elect a free-trade, free-market dude. In many ways he's more populist and heavy-handed-Fed-intervention than Obama ever was.

    24. Re:also in the news ... by imgod2u · · Score: 2

      As great as all of these concepts are. Reality is a spectrum. Without any government intervention, you can rest assured the negotiating power will consolidate into a bunch of conglomerates and as much "freedom" as you have will wither away as economic mobility opportunities decrease and labor competition increases.

      On the flip side, just trying to legislate good jobs for everyone regardless of talent and/or economic conditions is obviously ridiculous.

      Perhaps there's some right amount of government intervention. One that regulates the market so that there's plenty of competition and no conglomeration of powers that can abuse their monopolistic position. One that also provides some sort of basic safety net so that no citizen has to go into desperation-mode. And one that provides ample opportunities for self-improvement to all citizens.

      Set those bounds to the free market and then let it do its thing.

    25. Re:also in the news ... by imgod2u · · Score: 1

      Uber bleeds money every year. To the tune of a billion. You honestly think that if it were legislated to require all drivers to be full time that it'll just magically be able to?

      The alternative isn't every Uber driver being full-time. The alternative is 75% of Uber drivers having 0 income. While the other 25% become what used to be called "cab drivers".

    26. Re: also in the news ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's no such thing as "Obamanomics". You pulled that straight out of your ass. You just can't stop hating the guy can ya? I mean, he didn't do shit to ya, but you hate him all the same.

    27. Re:also in the news ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A quintupling of income against a ten-fold increase of prices would make you 50% WORSE off. Your statement sounds all good for the campaign trail but with the wording you used, it does not account for inflation or anything like that. You gave half a story because you love cheer leading america but also because capitalism encourages producing the bare minimum necessary at the highest price possible. Luckily we didn't have to pay shit to read your shit.

    28. Re: also in the news ... by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 1

      Oh please...Every president since Reagan has had "anomics" attached to their name.

    29. Re:also in the news ... by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      A quintupling of income against a ten-fold increase of prices would make you 50% WORSE off.

      Chinese incomes quintupled in real inflation adjusted terms.

    30. Re: also in the news ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And you sound like a sad, bitter failure. Couldn't make it? Your problem. Do not think the rest of us is like you. Do not expect the world to cater for losers.

    31. Re:also in the news ... by stealth_finger · · Score: 1

      Am I supposed to pay the neighborhood kid a living wage, offer a 401K and health benefits for just mowing my fucking lawn...?

      Depends, do you want him to do it full time?

      --
      Wanna buy a shirt?
      https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
    32. Re: also in the news ... by CAIMLAS · · Score: 1

      It's funny, I've thought a time or two about leaving IT and starting a lawn and snowplowing business. Why? Pay isn't quite as good, but except in the winter when you're plowing, you set your own hours, don't need to interact with people, and the pay is pretty damn good just the same. If only for allergies....

      Our 'lawn boy' is an 18 (now 19?) year old gay kid. He's been mowing lawns for 3 years, every summer. He has bought his own new truck -with cash - and all the accessories you'd expect. He makes at least $70k/year after taxes, and that's just with the people we know are his customers, paying voluntarilly, in cash/check, $20-40 at a time.

      No 401k or insurance necessary.

      Those poor lawn boys...

      --
      ~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
    33. Re:also in the news ... by cayenne8 · · Score: 0

      Good thing it takes longer to work someone to death if you're paying them a little bit. Slavery is for suckers.

      The thing is....NONE of these "gig" jobs are there for you to make a living on...that's not their purpose.

      They are there to allow you to make some money on the SIDE, when you have free cycles.

      Not every single job out there is one meant to make a career and living from, when did this thinking come about?

      Am I supposed to pay the neighborhood kid a living wage, offer a 401K and health benefits for just mowing my fucking lawn...?

      If someone is stupid enough to think they can earn a living doing "gig" work like these, I think the problem isn't the job, it is somewhere between their ears.

      Hell, go wait tables, you can make a LOT more money that way if you have to have a job between "real" jobs. I did it. Hell, depending on the market, be a bar tender, you can make some good money that way that people actually live on.

      But trying to do fiver or lyft or the like for a living just shows a person that isn't thinking straight.

      Not every job out there, is meant to support you for a living.

      Flamebait...seriously?

      This is a legitimate question....

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    34. Re:also in the news ... by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

      Good thing it takes longer to work someone to death if you're paying them a little bit. Slavery is for suckers.

      The thing is....NONE of these "gig" jobs are there for you to make a living on...that's not their purpose.

      They are there to allow you to make some money on the SIDE, when you have free cycles.

      Not every single job out there is one meant to make a career and living from, when did this thinking come about?

      Perhaps from the fact that everybody needs a job to make a living on? And that people who have a job that they make a living on, have no free cycles?

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
    35. Re: also in the news ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then take your life and shove it up your ass you little commie bastard.

    36. Re: also in the news ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem is these commie bastard pinko anarchists don't acknowledge freedom right before they misunderstand liberty. Freedom to associate includes the freedom FROM association. But now this is their religion; not yours and mine.

    37. Re: also in the news ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Commie bastards always being divisive. Divide and conquer. Well kiss my ass.

    38. Re:also in the news ... by slashdotwannabe · · Score: 1

      Not every single job out there is one meant to make a career and living from, when did this thinking come about?

      Goodness! You sure took that straw man out for a rant! Perhaps you failed to realize that nobody is claiming that "every single job out there is one meant to make a career and living from"? Perhaps "that thinking came about" from your reactionary amygdala?

      But trying to do fiver or lyft or the like for a living just shows a person that isn't thinking straight.

      Considering you're passing arm-chair judgement of people you don't even know the first thing about (ok, you know one thing: they're taking gig jobs), I'm a bit astonished at the hubris you must posses to judge that these people "aren't thinking straight". Maybe if you walked a mile in their shoes -- you know, working a couple minimum wage jobs and still not paying the rent or feeding the kids -- you might be less eager to pass judgement on people you don't know and more willing to look at the larger picture, or even consider that the words in the summary might have some merit?

      an individual working himself to death is evidence of a flawed economic system.

      Here's an interesting thought: Do you think our economic system might be a bit flawed, even IF, as you claim, that gig jobs "are not meant" to be enough to live off of? Here's another interesting thought: If I consider that I, on my comfortable salary which IS enough to live on, would never even think of taking a gig job beating my car up for $7 an hour, that maybe it's reasonable to assert that the ONLY people who WOULD take such low paying jobs are the ones that have no other choice? (and by extension, are desperate enough to take whatever shitty offer is made to them)

      --
      This comment is my opinion and does not represent an official position of Donald Trump or others I do not work for
    39. Re: also in the news ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Impossible. All or nothing, I've got my pitchfork, choose the form of your destroyer!

    40. Re:also in the news ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Great for you. Not everyone is as awesomely brilliant as you. But that's their tough shit, right?

      Yes actually it is. You are supposed to have enough common sense to avoid this.

      P.S. Still working on government gigs where you don't have to compete against H1Bs and offshore workers whose cost of living is 1/10th of yours?

      Again not my problem, nor is the slave labor of other countries. Its isn't your either unless you live there.

    41. Re:also in the news ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It doesn't discincentivize companies from fúcking anything - the UBI is actually a big fúckoff subsidy to businesses, because businesses will just slowly slash the wages they pay workers, until they soak up all the gains workers get from the UBI.

      It's a business subsidy in stealth...that's why all the fúcking tech businesses are promoting it ffs!

    42. Re: also in the news ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Impossible. All or nothing, I've got my pitchfork, choose the form of your destroyer!

      Didn't we do that on Nov. 8..?

  2. Huh? by monkeyxpress · · Score: 1

    I thought this was a slashvertisments for whatever that 'fiver' company is, but after reading the summary, I still have no idea what that 'fiver' company is, or what the hell this story is about.

    1. Re: Huh? by Entrope · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I think it's called Fiverr because you work for an hour and earn a fiver, or something.

      This article mostly seems to be about stirring up outrage over the fact that people can choose the terms and hours of their work.

    2. Re:Huh? by squiggleslash · · Score: 1

      Well, then you managed to avoid the context given by the preamble to the summary. They're saying Fivvvvvrr.com 2.0 (or whatever the f--- they're called) sucks. It doesn't really matter what they make, because that's not what the article is about, it's about how they're an example of a company that dresses up the fact they shit all over the people they work for them by dressing up Victorian labor conditions as dynamism.

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    3. Re:Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      At first I thought it was about hi-fiving after a Gig job was done... but it seems to be about the value of the jobs. Five dollars. I guess that at these rates one simply can't complain about the quality of the job done.

    4. Re: Huh? by Squiddie · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The outrage is that this is the future that awaits most workers in almost any sector, and instead of trying to remedy this, we think it's a positive thing that people can choose between poor working conditions and starvation.

    5. Re: Huh? by Entrope · · Score: 0

      You always have the choice to boycott the companies doing this kind of thing, and only buy from the ones you think behave responsibly.

    6. Re:Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Reads more like some angry people expect a company to take responsibility for Self Employed Independent contractors in their financial decisions.

           

    7. Re: Huh? by Archtech · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Since you are so obviously in favour of choice, for your lunch you have the following choices:

      1. Shit sandwich
      2. Vomit stew
      3. Ground glass hash

      Enjoy!

      --
      I am sure that there are many other solipsists out there.
    8. Re: Huh? by mnemotronic · · Score: 1

      A Bitcoin fiver would make it worth my time. Healthcare ain't cheap; and could get a lot more expensive or completely unobtainable.

      --
      The Russians have won. They have made the world a cesspool of distrust, greed, fear and hate.
    9. Re: Huh? by Squiddie · · Score: 5, Insightful

      And both you and I know that's a useless gesture, and sometimes you simply cannot boycott some companies. Tell me, can you find a computer not made in poor working conditions? Probably not. The problem is the system itself and the way we are headed to. The Americans have an obsession with "competing" with China and India, but this only means that they will end up working for Chinese and Indian wages in Chinese and Indian conditions. Don't worry about me. I'll be good enough to retire soon. You should worry about the people around you when they get tired of living like that.

    10. Re: Huh? by Entrope · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Meanwhile, in the real world, I will probably make my own lunch (a departure from my routine, because reasons), but there are plenty of places near me willing to trade tasty, reasonably nutritious food for either a lot of money or a little, as I wish.

    11. Re: Huh? by Pinky's+Brain · · Score: 1

      We also have a choice to become communists, the outcome for most won't be any better ... but we'll drag almost everyone down with us.

      So maybe it would in almost everyone's best interest to not let it come to that.

    12. Re:Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the fact they shit all over the people they work for them

      Then do not work for them, if the terms are unacceptable.

    13. Re: Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You forgot Giant Douche

    14. Re: Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Economics is a bitch. You can bend the rules, but it doesn't change the motivation for economic success. That success doesn't include paying someone for there mere existence.

    15. Re: Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      * their

    16. Re:Huh? by DirkDaring · · Score: 1

      Glad it wasn't just me.

    17. Re: Huh? by adamjgp · · Score: 1

      Good luck buying stuff to make lunch getting paid a Fiverr an hour. Forget about eating out anywhere for that amount of money. Oh, you could hold out for higher pay, but those people who are willing to work for shit wages because they can't starve will be constantly undercutting you, meaning that you'll have to take shit wages or starve.

    18. Re: Huh? by GlennC · · Score: 1

      ... there are plenty of places near me willing to trade tasty, reasonably nutritious food...

      But are you sure those places will still exist after they've been undercut by the flood of cheap crap food vendors?

      Even if you do find one, will you be able to afford it?

      --
      Go on, citizen, stamp the vote card. R or D, your choice.
    19. Re: Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Better arm up, because when society falls apart, the people with things will have them taken.

    20. Re: Huh? by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      Tell me, can you find a computer not made in poor working conditions?

      Aren't RPis still being made in the UK?

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    21. Re: Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You always have the choice to boycott the companies doing this kind of thing, and only buy from the ones you think behave responsibly.

      Libertarian claptrap. There is no law requiring businesses to disclose their labor practices. That makes voting with your wallet as an informed consumer impossible. Reason #9845 a free market can't exist without regulation.

    22. Re: Huh? by Entrope · · Score: 1

      Back in the 1980s and 1990s, chains like McDonald's we're focusing mostly on low prices, and less on quality and nutrition. Somehow, there are more non-chain and small-chain restaurants now than there were then, at least where I've lived.

      And having eaten at the second Five Guys location when it was the best one, I get a kick out of its success.

      Except for self-deprecating jokey product names, we sure don't seem to be heading towards a Soylent future.

    23. Re: Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The thing is, I've used fiverr. I paid $5 to have some EE student in Romania create some parts for KiCAD that I had no time to do myself and then published the parts under an open license for use by others. Once you know how to read a datasheet and use KiCAD, you can whip these things out in minutes. $5 is not much to me, but it's a great gig for a student in a poorer country. Same with 3D models for the same parts -- had some kid in the Philippines whip a few up for me.

      I've also used Upwork to have professionally designed models for injection molding, first by a guy just starting out in the middle of Nowhere, Utah, and then by a guy in Belarus. I have no way to hire a mechanical engineer full time.

      Without these services, I'd waste my own time doing the parts in KiCAD, never have a 3D model of the parts, and -- more importantly -- not have a product at all because without these services, the barrier to entry is much too high.

      No one has to work at Fiverr. Or at any of these other "gig" jobs. It's a choice. The only thing that needs to be policed is that the people offering and using the services are not being misled by the companies.

      The article is written as if the author thinks people "deserve" a full time job. No one deserves anything in life. If you don't have a full time job and need income or you want to supplement your full time job, you now have opportunities for that which never existed before.

    24. Re: Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This works on a retail level but there is no way this can be done at the base material level. How do you boycott a mining company that employs slave labor when their metals pass through several transactions before they end up in your computer?

    25. Re: Huh? by Entrope · · Score: 0

      I'm not working for Fiverr, and don't foresee working in a job where piecework makes sense.

      Most of the people arguing against these companies show no understanding of the theory of firms, which jobs are not suited to the kind of piecework arrangement at their heart, or the fact that other economic factors are driving a lot of the sob stories.

    26. Re: Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You should worry too. They're already coming after your retirement, determined to steal it from you under the guise of "fairness."

      When government defaults on a contract with a private business that's a travesty to be corrected, but the same people who believe that actually work around the clock to figure out how to get the government to default on contracts with its current and former employees. They are truly the enemies of working people everywhere. Watch out for them. They're experts at sounding as though they've got your back.

    27. Re: Huh? by jareth-0205 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Nobody is forcing you to buy a computer, and I probably can find a computer assembled by people who care about the product and their conditions. If you think there's a substantial unmet demand for that kind of thing, maybe you or a fellow-traveler should start selling artisanal computers made from sustainably sourced, fair-trade components.

      You want to "fix" the parts of human nature that you've been brainwashed to find distasteful. Don't expect the rest of us to jump onto your Marxist bandwagon.

      Repeat after me: "The market is not a magic fixall for every problem."
      How bizarrely deluded must you be to think that this entirely arbitrary concept of market forces is a substitute for actually caring about actual people and their living conditions?

    28. Re: Huh? by jenningsthecat · · Score: 1, Funny

      You want to "fix" the parts of human nature that you've been brainwashed to find distasteful. Don't expect the rest of us to jump onto your Marxist bandwagon.

      Found the Libertarian!

      --
      'The Economy' is a giant Ponzi scheme whose most pitiable suckers are the youngest among us and the yet-unborn.
    29. Re: Huh? by adamjgp · · Score: 2

      Exactly, we aren't talking about YOU in particular. We are talking about the masses who are wage takers. The ones who don't have the ability to dictate their terms of employment because they don't have the skills necessary to do that. Ideally, they would have those skills, or be able to enroll in training programs to teach those skills. In short, I'm not worried about you. I'm worried about the guy whose only option is to take whatever job is available, and the competition that he faces for that job, which will inevitably push wages down to their lowest possible point.

    30. Re: Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's an "In Soviet Russia..." joke in there somewhere. I know there is.

    31. Re: Huh? by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I think Uber and Lyft are an awful scam for the drivers, but we should ask ourselves if the "gig economy" is better or worse than working three minimum wage jobs to make ends meet, as was the case in the late 80's through early 90's. Or, being a taxi driver and barely making your gate fee plus gas in a day.

      There are workers marginalized by geography, education, social issues, and family conditions that are poorly utilized; the net effect of this is they cannot demand higher wages. It is hard for me to understand if it is better for them to do nothing, or eke out a little income to help themselves out.

      Personally, I know a few people that would rather make $50-75/day from home doing "gigs" than $100-150/day commuting to a job. I think they are approaching the problem illogically, but that is their life and decision.

    32. Re: Huh? by sjames · · Score: 1

      I want to fix the brainwashing that has removed the sense of decency from so many people.

    33. Re: Huh? by Entrope · · Score: 1

      Right, you're talking about somebody you made up. I prefer my anecdotes to be based in fact, preferably where we can explore the details -- so not done random person whose experience is filtered through a journalist with an obvious agenda.

    34. Re: Huh? by Entrope · · Score: 0

      All your caring isn't going to get a damn thing made or a single mouth fed. Put up or shut up. Venezuela's government says it cares more about its people than about markets, and see where that got them.

    35. Re: Huh? by sjames · · Score: 0

      And there it is. That perennial favorite, "I got mine, SCREW YOU!".

      Remember that when you (literally or figuratively) find that note where your car used to be parked.

    36. Re: Huh? by Entrope · · Score: 0

      I'm not working for Fiverr, and I also don't buy from them. Go throw your temper tantrum somewhere else, you hypocrite.

    37. Re: Huh? by mean+pun · · Score: 5, Insightful

      ... or you could just have a society with sane and decent regulation. Contrary to what the propaganda says, that is not automatically communism, it's simple human decency.

      Talking about decent, I seem to remember that one rather popular religion is preaching this. Something to do with a rebel that got up the nose of the Roman authorities. And isn't there another rather popular religion that has giving to the poor on its shortlist of things you definitely should do? And then there is another religion/philosophy that explains that being decent to your fellows may help you escape suffering in multiple incarnations. Come to think of it, it seems that being decent to your fellow human beings is on the recommended list of just about every religion. Imagine that, perhaps it is just a good idea?

    38. Re: Huh? by adamjgp · · Score: 3, Interesting

      So, you're saying that these people don't exist because you haven't met him? Are you saying that there aren't people working for minimum wage or less who are trying to live a life from that income? I realize that, yes, this is a fabricated situation, but clearly, these kinds of peopl exist, so we can explore the details of this abstract idea. If you are just worried about you and your situation, that's fine, it's a conservative stance, and it's one that I personally don't agree with. It puts the burden of survival squarely on the individual's shoulders. Not everyone is able to do the things that you can do, and I don't need a concrete example of this. There exist people who are more capable than you are, and also there are people less capable than you are. The gamut will run from the most capable to the least capable. Are we to assume that the least capable people should not survive because their skill set doesn't allow them to earn a livable wage? Requiring concrete factual examples of things in order to discuss possible outcomes isn't realistic. We have to assume that these situations exist, or have a possibility of existing so that we can be proactive with thinking up possible solutions, instead of waiting until we have already experienced the situations to start coming up with damage control reactive solutions.

    39. Re: Huh? by mean+pun · · Score: 1

      Are you seriously arguing that people that have to take any available job do not exist? Really?

    40. Re: Huh? by blackomegax · · Score: 1, Funny

      You say, in an ad hominem attack.

    41. Re: Huh? by blackomegax · · Score: 1

      You'd have to get brietbart and fox shut down

    42. Re: Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My mom has always kind of done this, less the tech part. She has always "worked for herself" but probably has always made less than minimium wage. People are free to make their own decisions.

    43. Re: Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Never would have expected the libertarian to see the word Libertarian as an ad hominem. Perhaps you're right...

    44. Re: Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If there were such a thing as simple human decency, you wouldn't need regulations to enforce it now, would you?

    45. Re: Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You make your own, of course! You set up your own mine, you get your own fab, you invent your own chip layouts, and as long as you advertise that it all has been fairly made, the consumers will beat a path to your door. And if they don't, then they simply revealed through their preferences that they're not that interested in the fairness they claim they're interested in.

      After all, the market fixes everything, no visible hand required.

      The amusing part is that, if markets were simple enough for all of that to work, then Soviet planning would have been much easier too. (See the paragraph starting with "If it’s any consolation, allowing non-convexity...")

    46. Re: Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Yep. Screwed by the CIA.

    47. Re: Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Jobs are being automated away. You can plot the skill set and IQ level of our robot overlords over time. Can you do your job cheaper than a robot? What is your maintenance cost over time? Are mechanics less expensive than doctors?

    48. Re: Huh? by Entrope · · Score: 1

      I'm saying that ranting against Uber or whatever is not going to help those people much, because their problems go deeper than the fact that they are currently desperate for a job. Their lives are more complicated than the reductionist stories that you and others want to tell.

    49. Re: Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      once again, you are a stupid prick. There is no magic 'invisible hand' once the market is large enough and can afford to buy legislation. You suck.

      Learn something about people. No, not everyone fits your idea of 'human nature' which seems to involve cannibalism and fucking everyone about you to get ahead, some of us actually help each other for not material gain.

      I wish I could meet you face to face so I could take you apart with my bare hands.

    50. Re: Huh? by Entrope · · Score: 1, Troll

      Learn what an ad hominem attack is, moron.

    51. Re: Huh? by sjames · · Score: 0

      Yes, yes, we get it. You won the lottery and the rest of us can go screw ourselves. You've made that abundantly clear.

      BTW, I'm not working for Fiverr either. I just haven't lost my ability to sympathize with people who didn't have a better option.

    52. Re: Huh? by Opportunist · · Score: 2, Interesting

      IIRC calling someone a "moron" is one.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    53. Re: Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      may I have mustard on my shit sandwich? The Democrats answer is, yes, yes you can, and we will supply fresh 'mustard' straight from the urinals for you (unless you are our friend)! The Republicans answer is, yes, yes you can, if you can afford to buy the cheap 'mustard' that is supplied straight from the urinals, or the more expensive 'mustard' that has actual mustard seeds ground in it, also from the urinals, or if you are one of the lucky friends of ours, then the mustard involves no product from the urinals first.

    54. Re: Huh? by Entrope · · Score: 1, Troll

      No, that's a personal attack. An ad hominem is something quite different. As I suggested to the other guy, go learn what one is.

    55. Re: Huh? by Opportunist · · Score: 3, Interesting

      And your money goes abroad, fueling the economy there instead of here. It's basically the same problem you can potentially have with immigrants who send the money they earn here back home to their family where the 30 bucks surplus they maybe generate are a fortune, while here it's basically a dinner for two at a restaurant.

      Now extrapolate and you have a restaurant near you closing down because there aren't enough patrons frequenting it. Leading to its waiters getting unemployed. And the domino line continues.

      Sending money abroad weakens your economy. And may eventually endanger your own job.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    56. Re: Huh? by Entrope · · Score: 1

      I sympathize enough with them that I engage my brain before I engage in virtue-signaling posturing about the eeeebull corporations.

    57. Re: Huh? by TooManyNames · · Score: 1

      Well, only if the person isn't actually a moron... sometimes it's an accurate and truthful categorization.

      --
      "Is not a sentence" is not a sentence. Well damn.
    58. Re: Huh? by Opportunist · · Score: 2, Insightful

      They are? Awesome! I decide that I don't work anymore!

      Wait. No, I can't do that, then I won't have no money.

      Ok, then I decide to only do what I want to do!

      Wait, no, that doesn't work either, nobody's going to pay me to post on /. all day.

      Ok, then I decide that I find a job where they don't care that I post on /. all day!

      Unfortunately such jobs don't exist.

      Then I go self-employed and do it!

      Yes, but still... nobody's going to pay for that.

      Making my own decisions sucks. Mostly because they're not my decisions at all. In the end, I can only decide between choices others have offered, and the chances are high that none of them are what I'd decide for if I really had to choose. It almost feels like an election, you know...

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    59. Re: Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's the beverage choice, not the foodie bit.

    60. Re: Huh? by jenningsthecat · · Score: 1

      My 'attack', (if indeed it was one), was more 'ad philosophia', than 'ad hominem'. For an example of an 'ad hominem' attack, see your own reply to my comment.

      --
      'The Economy' is a giant Ponzi scheme whose most pitiable suckers are the youngest among us and the yet-unborn.
    61. Re: Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yep free market works well. Unfortunately for you we live in a democratic republic. So when the masses get hungry and fed up working for 5 bucks they will come for you and your money. It may not be pitch forks but votes. Either way they will take it from you, your social security, 401k, house, all of it. Then you can sit back and proudly say "I'm so glad a couple of billionaires benefited from this wonderful gig economy. They had the money to get out before it all was taken. I'm so proud I took the high road and stood up for what was rightfully taken."

    62. Re: Huh? by Entrope · · Score: 0

      I'll just leave this here, with the observation that you truly have shown yourself to be an idiot.

    63. Re: Huh? by meta-monkey · · Score: 1

      "You're wrong because you're a moron" is an ad hominem.

      "You're wrong, moron" is an insult.

      --
      We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
    64. Re: Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Right; I am also worried about me. Because quite frankly in the race to the bottom here even if I and you make good money the people who are starving are going to eventually come take our stuff. Think French revolution.

    65. Re: Huh? by meta-monkey · · Score: 1

      ... or you could just have a society with sane and decent regulation.

      [snip]

      Come to think of it, it seems that being decent to your fellow human beings is on the recommended list of just about every religion. Imagine that, perhaps it is just a good idea?

      Wait, so when I die, God judges my soul based on how decent my government's regulations are? Vote your way to heaven I guess.

      --
      We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
    66. Re: Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you consider being a libertarian a bad thing? Outch. I wouldn't think YOU would find being labeled libertarian an ad hominem. Its fine though, we are not attacking you as a person, just your insanely dumb libertarian rhetoric.

    67. Re: Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nothing you posted responded to anything the grandparent said.

      Those are great sounding ideals, but where do the goods & labor come from? Yes, you can manufacture currency and play games with it, but if there's no labor or goods to be bought with the currency, all you do is make it harder to trade for them because one is scarce and the other is not. Ask Venezuela or Zimbabwe how that works out.

    68. Re: Huh? by mean+pun · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure what you want to project on me, but I don't see anything wrong with the original premise of this whole discussion: the Gig Economy can be a dangerous trap for some people because they cannot earn a living wage with it except by working themselves to death. It makes sense to note that danger, especially because Uber and such are not exactly protecting people against themselves here.

    69. Re: Huh? by sjames · · Score: 0

      I see no signs of empathy whatsoever.

    70. Re: Huh? by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      The market is not a substitute for caring about people, but it does factor in exactly how much people DO actually care. Other systems pay lip service to caring about people, but actually reward those who most crassly manipulate others into thinking they care.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    71. Re: Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is the issue. People who scream freedom are the same people who want to fix you.

    72. Re: Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How uneducated do you have to be to think 'market forces' are an 'entirely arbitrary concept'? There's all kinds of research on 'market forces' which is no more & no less the sum total of 'individual decision making'. Hell given your claim that it's no 'substitute for caring about actual people' I think its likely reasonable to presume you've been influenced by 'sociological studies' and statistics claiming there's a whole bunch of people who aren't properly being 'cared for' eg. 'studies about market forces'...I bet you even believe in the 'gender pay gap' being something like $.77 on the dollar and that women in western society are somehow 'not equal'...where do you think such claims come from? (in this case REALLY poorly understood statistics rather than the ones showing none of this is true).

      Push comes to shove, the 'bizarrely deluded' people are those that think 'top down forced implementation of social and economic policy' actually works.

      If people want to waste an hour to make $5 rather than play a video game for an hour that's entirely up to them & none of your 'caring' will make 1 iota of difference.

    73. Re: Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      RIGHT. Exactly where are those places TODAY? Seriously, I live in Vegas, you can get a decent paying job almost ANYWHERE right now. Will you make a living to sustain you in some 'Utopian vision of your future' (you know the nice house, a wife/husband & a couple of kids?), of course not, but there is no reason that any 'functioning teen/adult' couldn't get a job in this city right this second & make enough money to pay for their own upkeep (maybe they need to have a roommate or 2 but this is NOT strange in my world). Sure, there are groups of people this doesn't apply to, but they are so far below 'functioning adult' as to require 'special care' and they aren't likely involved in the 'gig economy' anyway.

    74. Re: Huh? by Entrope · · Score: 0

      Possibly because you have neither empathy, nor sympathy, nor decency.

    75. Re: Huh? by Entrope · · Score: 0

      Wow, the high school sophomores who don't know what "ad hominem" means are out in force today.

    76. Re: Huh? by TooManyNames · · Score: 1

      It's a bit interesting how you're so inclined to tell the parent that what applies to him does not apply to other workers, so he shouldn't judge them by that standard, but then go on to describe the capabilities of other workers, and what would benefit them.

      Maybe not everybody working waged jobs can obtain the skills necessary to move beyond that type of work -- for whatever reason. Maybe a lot of the "exploitative" work that exists out there, exists because there are plenty of people who cannot reasonably pursue something better, so there's no real incentive for "oppressors" (either employers or simply clients) to offer anything better (since there are plenty other people from which to choose).

      No, that couldn't be part of the problem. Obviously it's just greedy capitalists perpetually oppressing everybody else. That's the sole issue; nothing else.

      I would say this, though: nobody is forcing people to work those exploitative positions. They do genuinely have a choice. That would imply that work, even in a crappy job, is better than nothing for a lot of people. Would you instead suggest that they stay home, and rely on handouts? Two things: Will you personally provide those handouts? Will you invite them into your home? If you don't do that now, what's stopping you? Also, would you like to be in the position of having to rely on whatever the good intentions of others supply? Would you be happy existing, essentially, as someone else's pet? Or would you rather have the capability of directing your own life, even if meagerly?

      --
      "Is not a sentence" is not a sentence. Well damn.
    77. Re: Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Also many of these companies are dependent on tax dollars, so they're still leeching off of us even when we go out of our way to avoid them.

    78. Re: Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "create some parts for KiCAD that I had no time to do myself and then published the parts under an open license for use by others. Once you know how to read a datasheet and use KiCAD, you can whip these things out in minutes."

      So... it takes minutes, but you had no time at work, yet you pounded out a Shakespearian soliloquy fellating yourself over your cleverness?

    79. Re: Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Venezuela is over-populated thanks to its Catholic heritage. Over-population makes certain exploitation of labor. Only when capitol must compete for ( local citizen ) labor does the worker get a good deal. Analogous to both the Trotsky-DemoRats and biz-Nazi Ameri-corpse both favoring large imports of wettbakkk flesh. It's a policy certain to screw our own citizens and Gates/Price/Zukerberg/ want that hugely !! Fuck-'em-up with an ungreased baseball bat ... again and again ... it's war baby ... power-global-wealth against the American yeomanry. If you haven't observed by now the only rule of war is DON'T LOSE! You need a postcard palsy ?

    80. Re: Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They are however suggesting that one pay a reasonable amount for a reasonable piece of work.

      But what the factory workers are being paid in foreign countries *is* a reasonable amount for their pre-employment standard of living and the cost of living in those countries.

      Oh, and... for what it's worth, a UBI - which is the most common refrain heard about here when we talk automation leading to tighter employment conditions - is *exactly* the definition of "paying someone for their mere existence."

    81. Re: Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      IIRC calling someone a "moron" is one.

      You recall incorrectly.

      Calling someone a moron is simply an insult, or a personal attack. An argumentum ad hominem is where you respond to an argument by attacking the person who's making the argument, rather than addressing the substance of the argument.

      An example may be useful: Imagine a president, let's call him Shmonald Smump for the sake of argument, advances an alternative healthcare plan, which he promises will be far better than the system in place before it, and that people will absolutely love.

      A news outlet, let's call it Sluffington Toast, for the sake of argument, publishes a headline in which they denounce this alternative healthcare plan with the headline: "Smump uses Tiny Hands to grab people by the Healthcare!" The article is simply a trash-can of sneering insults insulting the cheeto-colored, tiny-handed, bad-haired man proposing the alternative healthcare plan, and doesn't actually address whether or not the alternative healthcare is better or worse than its predecessor on its own merits; Twitter erupts in effusive praise for Sluffington Toast's "speaking truth to power," and a bunch of Twitter simps pretend that the article absolutely demolished the original argument in favor of Smump's healthcare plan.

      THAT would be an ad hominem attack. If Sluffington Post instead simply published an article saying "Smonald Smump has Tiny Little Hands," then that would be a personal attack - not an ad hominem.

      Get it?

    82. Re: Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "there are more non-chain and small-chain restaurants now than there were then"
      "we sure don't seem to be heading towards a Soylent future."

      Um, so there's more low-paying, low-security jobs with no future... And you're not worried? You're over 50, impotent, bald, and waiting to die, this is why you don't care about the future of humans.

    83. Re: Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is this the company that pewdiepie got sacked from disney and youtube over?

    84. Re: Huh? by BenBoy · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Oddly enough, the grandpost is (wholly inadvertently) insightful. Marx nails this one as a natural consequence of alienation. It's a tremendously important concept, and a great, still-fresh lens for looking at this moment in a historical way. Splendid bandwagon, really; give it a read.

    85. Re: Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, right. And you have "access to Mar-a-Lago" in the same way that TrumpCare will give you "access to healthcare". Got the $200K annual membership on you?

      The worst thing about the worshippers of The Free Market is that they think every financial transaction is an agreement between equals. In order to have leverage against a company the size of Microsoft, it's not enough for you to boycott it. It's going to have to be you plus about a million other people. In the absence of some sort of organization and co-ordination, that rarely happens.

      A "choice" between "my way or die" isn't a true choice. And you can only make the "die" choice once, so if you do "choose", make sure it's going to count.

    86. Re: Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wait, so when I die, God judges my soul based on how decent my government's regulations are? Vote your way to heaven I guess.

      Most likely, seeing as church and state are often married to each other throughout history. If God didn't care so much about government, why would you find so many of his most devout followers being at the forefront of influencing politics, right up there with the lefties?

      I've been told by many theists that it was the religious how had the morale fortitude to vote with their conscience or to volunteer to fight the good fight against Nazis and Commies, while godless atheists stood by.

      Those same theists also tell me the greatest evils done in history of man is by godless commies, with Stalin being the poster boy of racking up millions of kills, and it takes the religious to control the beast that is government, as only the religious listens to the one true objective source of morality (God)

      But then I point to how Islam is a religion, and how according to Islam's objective source of morality it's ok for them to kill millions, many more millions than the commies, and suddenly the theists become the very lefties they claim to oppose, and start talking about tolerance and how "not all religions/Muslims" are like that.

    87. Re: Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dice/Slashdot should pay each of us a minimum wage of $100k/yr to post on /. daily. Make that the law

    88. Re: Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Universe is much, much bigger than Economics, Horatio.

      And when the rules of Economics collide with what's really important in people's lives, they have been known to adjust economies in unpleasant ways.

      There are many more rules in Economics than just the ones that the modern USA worships. And if enough people become miserable enough and frustrated enough, you may live to see some of those other economic rules demonstrated.

    89. Re: Huh? by zifn4b · · Score: 1

      Since you are so obviously in favour of choice, for your lunch you have the following choices:

      1. Shit sandwich 2. Vomit stew 3. Ground glass hash

      Enjoy!

      You are so right. I wish I could mod you up more. I explained this to a former boss once using a similar approach: "You can pick any fruit you like from this basket. The basket only contains apples. Choose any fruit you like from it." That's one of the fundamental concepts/tricks in fascism.

      --
      We'll make great pets
    90. Re: Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I believe that's a ridiculous correlation. If I could have a dinner in Belarus for $30, that might compare to a dinner here for $30. Apples and oranges...

    91. Re: Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The market cannot evaluate a parent's love for their baby, which is essential for that baby's growth and maturation. This cannot be given by, or substituted by, anything the market can provide.
      This fact alone makes the forces of the market incomplete and impotent at best, horrific and inhumane at worst.

    92. Re: Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The best way to fix someone is to treat them with compassion and empathy. Doesn't always work, and isn't aleays easy, but it's more effective and above all more freedom-compatible than all other methods.

    93. Re: Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But if you arm up, then you'll be one of the people with things.

    94. Re: Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Case in point: the black guy who keeps befriending KKK members, making many voluntarily leave the klan. He alone does more good than a thousand anti-racist protesters.

    95. Re: Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In a system that rewards sociopathic behaviour, you do. If the system rewarded empathic behaviour and helped people rid themselves of or control destructive traits, the problems would be much smaller.

    96. Re: Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      yes, what you say is true. BUT, all of those religions you mention do not advocate FORCING people to do these things with the full force and weight of the government. Each of these religions defines what is good (or, as you say, decent), and ALLOWS YOU TO MAKE THE CHOICE as to how you want to be decent. The problem with Socialism/Communism/excessive regulation is that there is NO CHOICE!

    97. Re: Huh? by sjames · · Score: 1

      More likely you are looking in a mirror and don't like what you see.

      Perhaps you should look back up at your post that started this and ask yourself the hard questions.

    98. Re: Huh? by wyHunter · · Score: 1

      I don't know, he didn't make a push for drugs legalization.

    99. Re: Huh? by Archtech · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Thanks! If anyone is interested in reading a bit about the theory behind my point of view, the best place to start is David Graeber's magnificent "Debt: The First 5000 Years". You'll be chuckling within a few pages, and awed within the first 100.

      You'll also be stunned at all the wrong beliefs that many people accept and take for granted. At the risk of further enraging those of other persuasions, I can reveal that one of Graeber's biggest ideas is that human beings naturally practice a form of "rough communism". Unless educated to do otherwise, we have a strong tendency to cooperate and help out. Here are a couple of choice extracts:

      "After all, we do owe everything we are to others. This is simply true. The language we speak and even think in, our habits and opinions, the kind of food we like to eat, the knowledge that makes our lights switch on and toilets flush, even the style in which we carry out our gestures of defiance and rebellion against social conventions – all of this we learned from other people, most of them long dead. If we were to imagine what we owe them as a debt, it could only be infinite. The question is: Does it really make sense to think of this as a debt? After all, a debt is something that we could at least imagine paying back”.

      “[Peter] Freuchen tells how one day, after coming home hungry from an unsuccessful walrus-hunting expedition, he found one of the successful hunters dropping off several hundred pounds of meat. He thanked him. The man objected indignantly:
      “’Up in our country, we are human!’ said the hunter. ‘And since we are human we help each other. We don’t like to hear anyone say thanks for that. What I get today you may get tomorrow. Up here we say that by gifts one makes slaves and by whips one makes dogs’.
      “The last line is something of an anthropological classic, and similar statements about the refusal to calculate credits and debits can be found throughout the anthropological literature on egalitarian hunting societies. Rather than seeing himself as human because he could make economic calculations, the hunter insisted that being truly human meant refusing to make such calculations, refusing to measure or remember who had given what to whom, for the precise reason that doing so would inevitably create a world where we began ‘comparing power with power, measuring, calculating’ and reducing each other to slaves or dogs through debt”.

      --
      I am sure that there are many other solipsists out there.
    100. Re: Huh? by Jason1729 · · Score: 1

      I think it's called Fiverr because you work for an hour and earn a fiver, or something.

      And then you give back $1 to the company running the website, so $4/hour.

    101. Re: Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, China.

    102. Re: Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is no magic 'invisible hand' once the market is large enough and can afford to buy legislation.

      Neither is there an "invisible hand" once a single player or handful of players grow to the point that they can demand and get better prices for materials and (temporarily) survive margin cuts on products. There's a hand, there, but only fools cannot see it.

      The only way you can have a sustainable free market is if there are no significant economies of scale. Otherwise, a positive feedback loop will form and the end result is monopoly.

      You don't need legislation or taxes or indeed any sort of government influence to destroy a free market. In most cases, the seeds of market destruction lie within the market itself.

    103. Re: Huh? by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      The French Revolution was fomented by people like you, not by the people starving in France at the time. People like you stirred up those who were afraid of ending up like those who were starving and convinced them to increase their odds of ending up like that, which resulted in the rise of Napoleon.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    104. Re: Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is also the lowering of wages. Companies start deciding whether to hire someone to do work or outsource it. First they try hiring someone at lower wages if they can. Or professionals have to adjust the rates they charge to compete for this business. This is a race to the bottom that really only makes the companies earning money off of each gig wealthy while keeping everyone else impoverished.

    105. Re: Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, no. The rebel you're thinking of never got up the nose of the Roman authorities. In fact, what little is said about him indicated that he more or less supported the Roman authorities.

      His own local religious authorities, on the other hand, were another matter. They're the ones who dumped it on the Romans, since they've made an art form of disobeying laws while going through contortions that are supposed to pretend that actually they are scrupulously obeying them. Like, for example, being forbidden to kill people you don't like.

      They're the ones who dumped it on the Romans, and the Romans simply adopted what they considered a practical political approach - kill one innocent man and forestall wholesale domestic unrest or let him go and suffer the consequences. The Romans - in the agency of Pilate - even adopted the democratic approach of letting his people be the final judges and the masses evidently forgot that killing people was against their Holy Law. Except, maybe when you kill them by proxy, it seems.

      You can tell times were different back then. The Romans didn't give a rat's ass for local ideological purity. All they cared about was practical results. Nowadays, we'd rather set fire to the deck chairs on the Titanic.

    106. Re: Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Which will be all the lefties acting a fool in their urban jungles while the right goes about their business as adults. Aka, any given day.

    107. Re: Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, just hastening the export of currency from your country, a practice that has long been derided by boot-strappy types.

      Remember, no one deserves anything in life, let alone bleeding money from your good economy to a bad one. No negative side effects have ever been observed from this... ever!

    108. Re: Huh? by BenBoy · · Score: 1

      Since you are so obviously in favour of choice, for your lunch you have the following choices:

      1. Shit sandwich

      And even there, pure capitalism allows you to choose: white or wheat ...

    109. Re: Huh? by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      I don't know, he didn't make a push for drugs legalization.

      Drug legalization has moved inside the Overton Window. It is now a ballot box issue rather than a soapbox issue.

    110. Re: Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      An economy fueled anywhere is a net gain. If there's more money in Romania, then that student is that much less likely to come looking for an H1-B visa here.

      And trade works both ways. Consider Australia, for instance: US exports to Australia have increased fourfold (in real terms) in the past 20 years. Why? Because Australia has got richer, that's why. (Largely, in their case, by trading with China. In fact, you could meaningfully subtract the US's trade surplus with Australia from its deficit with China, when considering how bad it would be for us to start a trade war in that direction.)

    111. Re: Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When Uber first showed up as "Ride Sharing", I thought, Cool help me get to work with people from my neighborhood.
      Then it became a Taxi with no insurance. Then it became a gig for the despairing. Then it became the worst place to work for women and a cash cow for Hedge Funds. Now - no F$%$%ing way.

    112. Re: Huh? by Dread_ed · · Score: 1

      So for the same reasons you would oppose NAFTA, the TPP, illegal immigration from the southern border, as well as over-regulation of US companies by OSHA?

      --
      When the only tool you have is a claw hammer every problem starts to look like the back of someone's skull.
    113. Re: Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The tragedy of all this is that a gig-style economy used to be the way most people who were neither farmers nor nobility/retainers worked and made a living before factories became the big thing. You'd set up as a weaver, people would come with wool, leave with cloth, and you'd get paid enough to keep on doing that your whole life. Or you'd be a miller, a smith, or something like that.

      The modern "gig economy" is a fraud, however, because it treats gigs as "perks" above and beyond a "real" job and not a job in itself and therefore doesn't pay a liveable amount per gig. All while real jobs have been evaporating faster than alternative careers have been replacing them,

    114. Re: Huh? by war4peace · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Um... no.
      You send money abroad when you buy ANYTHING made in China or wherever.
      You send money abroad when using any service which is at some point in its flow using any resources which are not internal to the country you live in.
      Those immigrants sending money to their own countries should be VERY low in your priority list.

      Your mobile phone, clothes, car, TV, even food, all of them read "money sent abroad" when you look at them. If anything, immigrants actually REDUCE those amounts indirectly through them paying taxes, renting homes locally, eating food locally, etc., although they're subjected to the same issues that you're facing (stuff they use also originates from abroad to some extent).

      --
      ...gis sdrawkcab (usually not responding to ACs; don't bother posting as AC)
    115. Re: Huh? by war4peace · · Score: 1

      Your decisions are still yours and you're free to make them. However, they have consequences. What you're saying is that you don't like the consequences of your decisions, not that you can't make them.

      --
      ...gis sdrawkcab (usually not responding to ACs; don't bother posting as AC)
    116. Re: Huh? by imgod2u · · Score: 1

      At least 2/3 of the components in RPi's come from Shenzhen. Not to mention almost all of the R&D work happened because companies could manufacture computers in low-wage conditions and sell-them to make a profit. RPi can't exist in a vacuum. It leverages all of the work the big boys did over the past 3 decades to be so cheap and so affordable.

    117. Re: Huh? by imgod2u · · Score: 1

      That's a load of bull.

      Scenario A:
      OP can't start his business because he can't hire cheap foreign labor. Foreign students don't get income. OP doesn't have a product and OP doesn't have a company. OP also doesn't spend money because OP has 0 income to spend at said neighborhood restaurant, leaving them with 1 (at least) less client.

      Scenario B:
      OP makes a product people buy. Foreign students get income. OP gets income. People get something that didn't exist before that (at least to them) improves their lives. OP (and possibly any employees he/she hires locally for more complex work) then has money to spend at neighborhood restaurant.

      In every single way scenario B is better. It's also the reason economists tell you that economics is not a zero-sum game. And it's what the "but the furrennrrr" wharbble people don't get.

    118. Re: Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Only if you think like a nationalist. Why should I care more about the restaurant workers where I live than about the restaurant workers where I go for holidays? I use restaurants at home and abroad, and I might want to work at one at home or abroad. Economies are connected anyway. There is no alternative to thinking global.

      Sending money abroad weakens your economy.

      No, certainly not mine.

    119. Re: Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Freedom comes at a price. Sometimes self-exploitation is a rational choice because it minimizes the number of humans you have to deal with. No PHB except yourself, and an abstract payment scheme reified in an app on your phone. Much easier to deal with that than with real people as superiors.

    120. Re: Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I know. God forbid anyone gets work they want to do.

    121. Re: Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I just spent 10x as much on a "made in America" machined injection mold and plastic parts as I did in paying the guy I hired on Upwork. That's money I would never have spent had I not had a "gig" worker as a resource. The part time "gig" side business I have does six figures in sales and brings in more than 3x the amount in exports as I pay out to imports and foreign and domestic "gig" workers. I still do this thing nights and weekends and keep a full-time career going. I'm both an employee and a business owner. I'm living the gig economy dream. The money I bring in keeps waiters and restaurants in business. Just ask my buddy who owns the local sushi bar.

      You seem to know very little about how business or the economy works in real life.

    122. Re: Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Eating a hotdog on a Friday is against every major religion in the world.

      Catholic (no meat on Friday)
      Judaism (no Pork)
      Hindu (no Beef)
      Buddhist (no meat)

    123. Re: Huh? by stealth_finger · · Score: 1

      You'd have to get brietbart and fox shut down

      But then where would Trump get his intelligence from?

      --
      Wanna buy a shirt?
      https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
    124. Re: Huh? by zifn4b · · Score: 1

      “[Peter] Freuchen tells how one day, after coming home hungry from an unsuccessful walrus-hunting expedition, he found one of the successful hunters dropping off several hundred pounds of meat. He thanked him. The man objected indignantly: “’Up in our country, we are human!’ said the hunter. ‘And since we are human we help each other. We don’t like to hear anyone say thanks for that. What I get today you may get tomorrow. Up here we say that by gifts one makes slaves and by whips one makes dogs’. “The last line is something of an anthropological classic, and similar statements about the refusal to calculate credits and debits can be found throughout the anthropological literature on egalitarian hunting societies. Rather than seeing himself as human because he could make economic calculations, the hunter insisted that being truly human meant refusing to make such calculations, refusing to measure or remember who had given what to whom, for the precise reason that doing so would inevitably create a world where we began ‘comparing power with power, measuring, calculating’ and reducing each other to slaves or dogs through debt”.

      This part is remarkable fascinating. I'll have to read more into this. Thanks for sharing. This seems to be about the value of cultural tradition/identity vs. logical measurement of results. The former seems to view the latter as progressive (evolving towards more results) and as a loss of cultural identity (a bad thing). I've had discussions with more conservative friends about this and I always ask them "Would you prefer spearing fish out of a river in a loincloth as opposed to shopping at the grocery store?" When they think about it this way, the mental contradiction arises and they usually silently realize that they're thinking absolutes on some level.

      --
      We'll make great pets
    125. Re: Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Personally I'd take the vomit stew.

    126. Re: Huh? by locketine · · Score: 1

      Why is removing workplace safety in your list? I was all for it until you put that one in there. Everything else is a net exporter of American wealth, measured in resources and dollars.

      --
      Think globally but act within local variable scope.
    127. Re: Huh? by locketine · · Score: 1

      What if OP gets a small business loan in Scenario A?

      --
      Think globally but act within local variable scope.
    128. Re: Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As I recall the originator of that religion said, "The poor you will always have with you."
      You can't change human nature.
      In the eighteenth century there were two societies that each decided to change their circumstance by engaging in revolution. One society formed a government based on assuming the best of human qualities would drive people: Liberty, Fraternity, Equality. The other formed a government assuming that people could not be trusted and that governments were something to be tolerated, not celebrated.
      From the first we got the Terror. From the second centuries of increasing prosperity, until the lesson of human nature began to be forgotten.

    129. Re: Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Catholic (no meat on Friday)

      Vatican II (the Deputy Pope) says you don't have to follow that rule.

    130. Re: Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I probably can find a computer assembled by people who care about the product and their conditions.

      Finding computer "parts" not made in China? Good luck with that.

      We don't "make" anything here is the US any more.

    131. Re: Huh? by imgod2u · · Score: 1

      What would it matter? His business model involves:

      1. Revenue
      2. Cost

      Cost is the development. If he didn't have access to $5 simple CAD design and only had access to CAD contractors who were overqualified but charged $5k, his ROI would not be worth it. He's only making tiny, cheap, simple things to sell to people here.

      Just having access to capital through a loan doesn't change the fact that his business revenue doesn't bring in enough $ to justify spending that much on R&D. Lower the cost of R&D and you have a lot more business models who can all of a sudden work now.

    132. Re: Huh? by Cinnamon+Beige · · Score: 1

      Neither is government regulation a magic fixall for every problem. It might be best to not outsource your concern for actual people and their living conditions to the state--or, at least, recognize the state's contributions to and share of responsibility for the situation, and not just its (claimed or actual) positive contributions.

      Don't let politicians off the hook for making it so it's cheaper for companies to offer lousy gigs than hire employees--especially since the solutions that seem to be getting the most pushing by politicians would result in many, if not all, of these people having no job at all. I think it's pretty safe to say that very few of the people in the gig economy would consider that an improvement--if they would, they'd have walked away from their job already, and it doesn't exactly help that in some cases the gig economy is really not managing anything but being differently bad from the traditional model's version of the same job.

    133. Re: Huh? by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      no one suggested that you 'pay someone for their mere existence' you fucking prick.

      No? We have various people in this thread alone talking about UBI, which is exactly paying someone for their mere existence. There's a lot of theorizing about what to do with jobs that are eliminated by automation, shrinking the job pool.

    134. Re: Huh? by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      Yep. Screwed by the CIA.

      Screwed by a lot more than the CIA. They have no economy outside of oil, so if oil tanks, so does the country. That's the peril of being a one-product country.

    135. Re: Huh? by thunderclap · · Score: 1

      Sounds like you are advocating protectionism.

      protectionism
      prtekSHnizm/
      noun Economics
      the theory or practice of shielding a country's domestic industries from foreign competition by taxing imports.

    136. Re: Huh? by thunderclap · · Score: 1

      They are? Awesome! I decide that I don't work anymore!

      Wait. No, I can't do that, then I won't have no money.

      Ok, then I decide to only do what I want to do!

      Wait, no, that doesn't work either, nobody's going to pay me to post on /. all day.

      Ok, then I decide that I find a job where they don't care that I post on /. all day!

      Unfortunately such jobs don't exist.

      snip

      Yes, they do. They are called govt jobs and if you are willing to live Washington DC you can get one.

    137. Re: Huh? by locketine · · Score: 1

      He could hire a HS dropout who happened to learn CAD for minimum wage. Heck, one of my friends with an engineering degree was doing CAD work for $14/hr right out of college. Using extreme examples isn't helping your argument.

      You're right that certain business models aren't viable when hiring American workers but should those businesses even be in the US? By enabling the limited number of businesses that cannot survive at American wages, we would enable exploitation by businesses which can.

      Also, at minimum wage, the biggest cost of most businesses are going to be materials and shipping, not labor. The fast food industry is a perfect example of this because they keep claiming that raising wages will raise what they charge by a big amount but in actuality the wages are something like 3-15% of their operating expenses.

      --
      Think globally but act within local variable scope.
    138. Re: Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >> You'd have to get brietbart and fox shut down
      > But then where would Trump get his intelligence from?

      The Kremlin and FIS (KGB).

    139. Re: Huh? by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Why you should care is that the chance that the money you spend here is again spent here is pretty high. And money spent here may well be spent on you or your business.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  3. Whoever came up with this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "The campaign positions Fiverr to seize today's emerging zeitgeist of entrepreneurial flexibility, rapid experimentation, and doing more with less. It pushes against bureaucratic overthinking, analysis-paralysis, and excessive whiteboarding."

    Whoever came up with that deserves excessive waterboarding.

    1. Re:Whoever came up with this by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      I was more thinking of a meat grinder. Feet first.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    2. Re:Whoever came up with this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    3. Re:Whoever came up with this by zifn4b · · Score: 1

      I was more thinking of a meat grinder. Feet first.

      Nah that's too humane. Drive them out in the middle of a desert and leave them there.

      --
      We'll make great pets
    4. Re:Whoever came up with this by Opportunist · · Score: 2

      Do I get to watch?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    5. Re:Whoever came up with this by war4peace · · Score: 2

      There's money to be made by livestreaming that shit.

      --
      ...gis sdrawkcab (usually not responding to ACs; don't bother posting as AC)
  4. then go somewhere else by trybywrench · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    If fiverr, or the others, don't work for you then go somewhere else. Further, things like fiverr, lyft, and Uber aren't meant to be a primary source of income. The gig economy is just gigs for some cash not full time employment. If you want to be an independent full time then you need to setup your own legal entity and charge your own rates and build your own brand.

    --
    I came to the datacenter drunk with a fake ID, don't you want to be just like me?
    1. Re:then go somewhere else by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If fiverr, or the others, don't work for you then go somewhere else.

      I'm not aware of people saying "gee, I really don't want that nine-to-five job, I want to be an uberer/fiverr/lyfter". They* are taking those jobs because they don't have anywhere else to go

      *I fully expect a few "disproving anecdotes", the best kind of science. But its overwhelmingly true.

      Further, things like fiverr, lyft, and Uber aren't meant to be a primary source of income.

      Ah, the great "meaning" argument. Whether they were intended as full-time work originally or not, they most certainly have morphed into that. And I don't really care about motivation as much as impact. And Uber/Lyft with their car leases, definitely are trying to make you think of it as a full-time job.

      If you want to be an independent full time then you need to setup your own legal entity and charge your own rates and build your own brand.

      Which isn't at all the message Fixerr/Uber/Lyft are putting out there.

      --
      Your ad here. Ask me how!
    2. Re: then go somewhere else by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nonono we americans are entitled to the best for the cheapest.

    3. Re:then go somewhere else by DarkOx · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The gig economy is just gigs for some cash not full time employment.

      I frankly don't buy it! There are small groups of people who are interested in that sort of thing. Teenagers who still are largely fed/clothed/housed by their parents, perhaps a stay at home parent needing something to do while the kids are at school, retirees who don't perhaps have savings for entertainment and actually want light work as a diversion. Maybe some trust fund babies that want to make a few bucks without rules attached. I am sure there are others. I am also sure this isn't a large enough labor pool to meet the demand in terms of scale companies like Lyft, Uber, fiverr, Amazon (turk) etc in vision.

      The rest of the labor force isn't taking gigs because they want to! They are taking gigs because they are trying to meet needs or at least perceived needs. Most sensible after working a 40-60 hour week want to use their remaining time, to enjoy the home they secured, eat a nice meal, watch a movie, watch the world go by, read a book, talk to family, see friends, etc. Some people who are self employed might be self motivated to work 9 hours + and that might make sense if they are doing it so they can 'get a head' and eventually not have to work so hard etc. Its also different in that they are working for something that is their own, in the same way some of us would work DIY remodeling our own home etc.

      Really do think that Uber driver would not be somewhere else if they did not feel like they really needed the money at least on some level? They are doing it out of some kind of insecurity, tangible or emotional. Don't tell me some people just like driving either, I love driving. I take my Sunday drives on the Blue Ridge Parkway either by myself or with my wife. I don't play taxi driver for randos downtown. I don't believe anyone else would either if they were 'entirely free' to decide.

      There is some external pressure and its almost certainly in the form under employment, unemployment, under paid and without negotiating leverage, trade competition and similar. The capital owner element of the gig economy is keenly aware of this, its the reason they have a labor pool to hire. I am not saying its exploitative, people should be free to make whatever contract, work whatever job they wish. I just don't have any illusion that this is a bunch of people out there looking to make a little mad money. There are major structural factors at work here and the market is simply responding. I am also of the belief that its response isn't unaffected by governmental policy. They people we voted for are doing this to us.

      They have been doing it to us since the 60's. People are getting fed up. Trump is just the tip of the ice burg (hopefully)! The capital class that owns the media and dominates politics are reacting virulently to his populist message and that tells me they are frightened it could endure beyond his presidency. Perhaps someone a little more politically savy will be able to take the Trump ball and run with it.

      --
      Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
    4. Re:then go somewhere else by adamjgp · · Score: 2

      Yes, ideally this would work. However, if you are charging X and your competition is charging 0.1X, you're not going to get any business until you drop your rates to theirs.

    5. Re:then go somewhere else by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      I'm glad you said it so I didn't have to write it all out.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    6. Re: then go somewhere else by Entrope · · Score: 2

      What is your suggestion? That these people whose alternative is no job take that alternative? That the employers raise prices to support higher wages for their workers, leading to much reduced demand and most of their current workers bring out of work? That the employers start printing money so they can pay more than they take in?

    7. Re:then go somewhere else by operagost · · Score: 0

      I'm not aware of people saying "gee, I really don't want that nine-to-five job, I want to be an uberer/fiverr/lyfter". They* are taking those jobs because they don't have anywhere else to go

      Yeah, like he said. It's supplemental income. That doesn't mean they only work it because they have no job. You know that there are more than 40 hours in a week, right? Sometimes people are willing to forgo partying or gaming for a few hours each week in order to make some more cash.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    8. Re:then go somewhere else by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 2

      Anecdotes are useless, but many of the people I have met riding Lyft/Uber do it as something a few hours a day, either semi-retired, between jobs, learning a new city, housewives getting out of the house, etc. Most are doing it full time, or effectively full time, but ~20% outside New York seem to do it kind of as intended.

    9. Re: then go somewhere else by sjames · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If their business model can't support paying a living wage, it SHOULD go away rather than damaging the economics of more adequate employers.

    10. Re:then go somewhere else by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The weirdest part about all this is that it's not even new. Look at the works of writing that were representative of the era of the Great Depression. If they deal with the subject of poverty, they usually contain some reference to a person doing "odd jobs" because they cannot find other employment. What do you think uber/lyft/fiver are other than a modern portal for what would have previously been termed an "odd job"? What is a "gig economy" other than a large number of people relegated to "odd jobs" to make ends meet?

      It was never a symptom of a healthy shift in modern economics. It was a symptom of past economic problems happening again with a modern spin.

      But I'm sure there were people in the 1930s who would claim that people who did "odd jobs" were perfectly happy with their new kind of employment too.

    11. Re:then go somewhere else by cayenne8 · · Score: 0

      I'm not aware of people saying "gee, I really don't want that nine-to-five job, I want to be an uberer/fiverr/lyfter". They* are taking those jobs because they don't have anywhere else to go

      Nowhere else to go?? Really? Who's holding them back? There are PLENTY of jobs out there.

      Why not try waiting tables or bartending? I made a living doing that before I got a "real" job?

      There's work to be done out there, may not be your "ideal" job that gives you self esteem, but you can work and earn a living till you get that job, and it does not have to be 'gig' work...although doing some gig work on the side can help supplement your restaurant job.

      Whether they were intended as full-time work originally or not, they most certainly have morphed into that.

      So,we should do a way with, ban or regulate out of business, those companies that offer this choice of a side contract gig...just because some people are too stupid to realize that it is not a primary source of income.

      We have to cater to the lowest denomination because some people can't make correct decisions with regard to employment?

      Hell, should we do away with contracting in general? It works for me, but because others don't know how to negotiate, manage money and paperwork, I shouldn't be allowed to either because others might get hurt or do things wrong?

      I'm sorry, I cannot see your arguments here, until I see the gun being held to someones head forcing them to do this gig work....

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    12. Re:then go somewhere else by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      // puts on grammar nazi outfit //

      so they can 'get a head'

      so they can get ahead, as in get ahead of the rat race

      I don't care what you saw, but that was not what he meant.

    13. Re:then go somewhere else by trybywrench · · Score: 1

      There is some external pressure and its almost certainly in the form under employment, unemployment, under paid and without negotiating leverage, trade competition and similar. The capital owner element of the gig economy is keenly aware of this, its the reason they have a labor pool to hire. I am not saying its exploitative, people should be free to make whatever contract, work whatever job they wish. I just don't have any illusion that this is a bunch of people out there looking to make a little mad money. There are major structural factors at work here and the market is simply responding. I am also of the belief that its response isn't unaffected by governmental policy. They people we voted for are doing this to us.

      At the end of the day these companies facilitate the connection between a producer and consume and then take a cut ( albeit a large one ) for the connection. I just don't see how these companies owe more than the contract specifies. Let's say i'm a graphic designer and I hire a leads company to generate leads for me and I pay them a percentage of a completed project originated from their lead. Does the leads company owe me full employment and benefits?

      Also, how does our elected leaders even factor in here? What could they possibly do? Should the government require Uber to pay drivers a living wage ( assuming "living wage" can be defined )? Go back to my analogy with the leads company, now they too should pay me a living wage.

      It's hard for to me to understand how anyone can seriously think these things.

      --
      I came to the datacenter drunk with a fake ID, don't you want to be just like me?
    14. Re: then go somewhere else by RightSaidFred99 · · Score: 2

      Rubbish. You're just picking winners (e.g. the small number of taxi drivers) over losers (the huge number of Uber or Lyft drivers). And your living wage shtick is fucking risible. It's an analog of the Parable of the Broken Window. Why, if we just make employers pay people more, everyone will benefit because then people will have more money to spend!

      Good luck with that in a global economy. I'm sure China and India will be happy to play by those rules and force their own employers to pay people the equivalent of $35k a year or whatever insane number you and your ilk think Americans should be guaranteed. That's so laughable that it has no basis to even be in a reality based discussion. And in reply to your inevitable "but muh services are different from muh goods!!!!" prattling, in 15 years we will have automated cars. If you force the market by banning Uber/Lyft type services it will be in less than 8 years.

      Your policies would only hasten us to the inevitable UBI system before we're really ready for it. And yes, I agree at some point some major changes will need to be made like a UBI.

    15. Re: then go somewhere else by sjames · · Score: 1

      UBI is fine by me. A gig economy would be just fine as long as the UBI was covering at least the basic cost of living.

      But we don't have the UBI now, and so the gig economy isn't supportable. One or the other condition must go.

      Right now, it seems more likely that the Troglodytes running things will impose some limits on the gig economy (if only because of bribes) than they are to implement UBI.

    16. Re:then go somewhere else by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So,we should do a way with, ban or regulate out of business, those companies that offer this choice of a side contract gig

      Both Uber and Lyft were banned before they even started. Unlicensed, uninspected, under insured taxi services are still illegal in most places.

    17. Re: then go somewhere else by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      So, your answer is, those people whose alternative is no job should just be happy to have no job.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    18. Re: then go somewhere else by sjames · · Score: 1

      My guess is that Uber won't want to sink without a fight. They might even become desperate enough to pay a living wage and find a way to make it work. In the end, the market abhors a vacuum. Someone would come along paying a living wage and filling the void. So long as there's a void to fill.

      One way to balance the negotiation would be the UBI. Give people enough that they can walk away from a bad deal and the deals will get better fast.

    19. Re:then go somewhere else by war4peace · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry but I never was able to put someone who still owns a car into the "desperate" category.

      --
      ...gis sdrawkcab (usually not responding to ACs; don't bother posting as AC)
    20. Re:then go somewhere else by DarkOx · · Score: 1

      At the end of the day these companies facilitate the connection between a producer and consume and then take a cut ( albeit a large one ) for the connection. I just don't see how these companies owe more than the contract specifies.

      They don't or at least I agree with you I can't think of a reason they owe more. Our elected leaders figure in though because my larger point is there are structural issues in our economy. An economy that their polices shape which create a level of desperation among a sufficiently substantial part of the work force that people will supply labor to the 'gig economy' companies at 'real' rates that in seem well below what people would have accepted in recent history.

      Low relative compensation for labor is creating greater wealth separation between the capital owner class and laboring classes. I don't know anyone who really thinks that is positive trend. Even the most ardent anarcho-capitalists would probably characterize that as a simply fact without placing a value judgement on it. I for one don't think an expanding wealth gap is good for society writ large. I don't think the answer is socialism either. I think the more government you just trade community for bureaucracy. Bureaucracy does not scale in the end, and it does not for a full and fulfilling life make, its absolutist nature (these are rules and you're going to follow them) tend to be anti-freedom and progressively more so as it expands into other areas of life. I would like to see us persue a populist communiterian solution but that does imply some government.

      It implies capital controls - you can't send big piles of money abroad, but you can spend freely domestically. You can't hire foreign labor and if you want to import good that have a large foreign laybor component well there are going to have to be tariffs, tariffs high enough that you will decide to make things domestically instead. In other words the tariffs are not designed to increase tax revenues for government re-distribution, they are designed to restrict trade by being high enough few would choose the pay them, but still allow goods and services into the country that cannot be sourced locally at least not in the short term.

      It requires tight restrictions on immigration, because communities will need to absorb and integrate new members. A solution like a large immigration tax would probably be in order. Want to stay in the US more than few weeks $50K! Want to be on the citizenship/green card tack $80K!

      --
      Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
    21. Re:then go somewhere else by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 1

      People who own a car, are not desperate. People who possess a car can certainly be. Possessing a car is not a sign of non-desperation anymore. They will finance anyone, with no money down. You'll maintain negative equity for 5-odd-years, and likely have it repo'd before that 5-year period is up (in which case, no problem, they'll sell it to the next guy). But car loans are the new subprime mortgage.

      Plus, Uber and Lyft will finance your car for you! Heck, your payment on your Lyft car depends on the hours you work.

      --
      Your ad here. Ask me how!
    22. Re:then go somewhere else by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 1

      Forgive my interpretation, but if 80% of the people are doing it fulltime, then it's a fulltime job. With some dabblers.

      --
      Your ad here. Ask me how!
    23. Re:then go somewhere else by war4peace · · Score: 1

      Plus, Uber and Lyft will finance your car for you! Heck, your payment on your Lyft car depends on the hours you work.

      I stand corrected. I never knew this.
      I mean, wow, that's a new level of low.

      --
      ...gis sdrawkcab (usually not responding to ACs; don't bother posting as AC)
    24. Re: then go somewhere else by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 1

      We could treat Uber like a real job, where they have to pay $X / hour and depreciation on the car, etc. We could insist that someone who was going to Uber fulltime get things like matching social security, predictable shifts, and so on. We could require that Uber follow the labor laws of the countries they operate in.

      --
      Your ad here. Ask me how!
    25. Re: then go somewhere else by Waccoon · · Score: 1

      But according to leading entrepreneurs, tax breaks and subsidies will do a better job of creating jobs.

    26. Re: then go somewhere else by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good luck with that in a global economy. I'm sure China and India will be happy to play by those rules and force their own employers to pay people the equivalent of $35k a year or whatever insane number you and your ilk think Americans should be guaranteed.

      This is why we have nations and borders. Each nation's government is beholden to it's citizens and responsible for maintaining their well being.

      That is not to say that it is wrong to help others, but that it is wrong to help others at the cost of harming your own.

    27. Re:then go somewhere else by trybywrench · · Score: 1

      At the end of the day these companies facilitate the connection between a producer and consume and then take a cut ( albeit a large one ) for the connection. I just don't see how these companies owe more than the contract specifies.

      It implies capital controls - you can't send big piles of money abroad, but you can spend freely domestically. You can't hire foreign labor and if you want to import good that have a large foreign laybor component well there are going to have to be tariffs, tariffs high enough that you will decide to make things domestically instead. In other words the tariffs are not designed to increase tax revenues for government re-distribution, they are designed to restrict trade by being high enough few would choose the pay them, but still allow goods and services into the country that cannot be sourced locally at least not in the short term.

      It requires tight restrictions on immigration, because communities will need to absorb and integrate new members. A solution like a large immigration tax would probably be in order. Want to stay in the US more than few weeks $50K! Want to be on the citizenship/green card tack $80K!

      I think what you're talking about is the effects of globalization on the cost of labor. From that perspective Fiverr is different in that it is a global "gig economy" company and the buyer gets to choose between everyone on earth and not just their local neighborhood. In that way I would agree elected leaders could have an affect and, I would say, are obligated to protect their constituents. However, globalization is a very different discussion and has impacts far beyond just the gig economy in the US.

      --
      I came to the datacenter drunk with a fake ID, don't you want to be just like me?
    28. Re:then go somewhere else by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      that assumes price is the only differentiator between you and your competitor
      that's nowhere near a given

    29. Re:then go somewhere else by locketine · · Score: 1

      Do you have scientific evidence backing your claim or only require it of others? I hired someone to clean my apartment for a move out through Task Rabbit and paid them $250 for a day's work. They told me that they travel the world using apps like Task Rabbit in any city they choose and it is way better than the nine-to-five job they used to have. The nine-to-five job is not the ideal way to live one's life, it's just the social norm that people seem to love defending for seemingly legitimate reasons.

      --
      Think globally but act within local variable scope.
    30. Re:then go somewhere else by atticus9 · · Score: 1

      A lot of people don't want nine-to-five jobs. They aren't full time Uber/Lyft drivers, but they do "gigs" like web design, development, media, bartending, and so forth. Save up a few thousand, take a trip or something and go back to gigs. Or have seasonal work like being a NFS firefighter or professional sailor, where they work four~five months a year 24/7 and use the funds to support themselves on the other months.

      The nine-to-five grind works for some people, but it's definitely not for everyone, so I wouldn't hold it up as an ideal of what everyone wants.

    31. Re:then go somewhere else by mjwx · · Score: 1

      If fiverr, or the others, don't work for you then go somewhere else.

      I'm not aware of people saying "gee, I really don't want that nine-to-five job, I want to be an uberer/fiverr/lyfter". They* are taking those jobs because they don't have anywhere else to go

      *I fully expect a few "disproving anecdotes", the best kind of science. But its overwhelmingly true.

      Not quite, Uber, Lyft, et al. still have enough starry eyed suckers who dont quite realise that they wont make money that they cans still afford to be picky. This will change rapidly of course and we'll end up with the scenario you describe. The only people driving for Uber will be those that the likes of McD's literally will not hire.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    32. Re: then go somewhere else by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is not the analog to the broken window parable. This just shows that you have heard of it, but that you clearly do not understand it.

    33. Re: then go somewhere else by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hush. You are talking nonsense and sound like a stupid asshole.

  5. Clickbait economy by Kohath · · Score: 1

    Celebrates trolling people into clicking on bullshit.

  6. Debt by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The real key is not to get paid more for your job, but to reduce your debt.

    When you don't owe anybody anything, it's amazing how rich you really are; having "fuck you" money is really just being debt free.

    Unless you have a plan to make it profitable, don't go to university; don't buy that new car; don't purchase things on credit. Keep debts away, and you won't have to work yourself to death—instead, you'll have so much free time that you'll bore yourself death, which is a much more comfortable way to go.

    1. Re:Debt by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except that most people will have to take on debt or get nowhere. Few people without "fuck you" money can purchase a house without taking on debt. Otherwise you waste your money paying more and more rent year after year. If you manage your debt reasonably there is nothing wrong with it. Keep putting money aside so you can say "fuck you" to your employer when they try stunts you don't like. A good six months in the savings account gives you plenty of time to find a new job for a better company.

      As a consulting engineer I don't need to have a brand new car but my car has to be reliable and presentable as it does project an image to clients. Again, reasonable use of debt will satisfy this requirement. Basically I have one pay check a month that goes for bills and one paycheck that goes towards savings and paying off debt in equal portions. Yeah, my roof getting blown off my house that I own set me back even with property insurance but at least I will likely get that month back as my house has doubled in value since I bought it.

    2. Re:Debt by fluffernutter · · Score: 2

      How many commenters have I seen here saying people are poor because they're not taking risk on starting a business and being successful. That requires debt!

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    3. Re:Debt by TWX · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately this has been proven time and again to be wrong, at least as far as the smart use of credit is concerned. If you want to own a home you're almost always going to have to finance it. If you want to own a car that will give you more than a decade of service with few issues you're probably going to need to finance it. Hell, if you have a skill in a profession that requires materiel or tools that can make you a good income, you might have to finance some business expenses for those tools or for that materiel in order to get the ball rolling. The trick is to set a reasonable debt limit for yourself and to stick to it- don't take all the financing that they'll offer, be reasonable about what you can afford and take only what you need. This has even worked among poor populations like in India, where poor people, offered small loans by our standards, have been able to establish what they need to start businesses to provide services to those in the same situation, become profitable, pay back the loan, and slowly move themselves up to a better standard of living.

      The stupid use of credit, whether it's to buy items far beyond one's means (keeping up with the Joneses), or to finance means to then make money without work and without having something to serve as collateral (speculation on the stock market with borrowed money) is obviously another matter. If the bank is willing to loan you $400,000 for a house, you shoul probably look for a house in the $250,000 range. If you regularly have to carry a balance on your credit cards then you need to evaluate your spending patterns; that $100 pair of shoes shouldn't really cost you $200. And you definitely shouldn't buy things like stocks that cannot serve as their own collateral on credit, that's the fastest way of having literally nothing but debt to show for it.

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
  7. People are taking the jobs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Who is the sucker here?

    1. Re:People are taking the jobs by jeff4747 · · Score: 2

      Starvation is not really an acceptable alternative to a shitty job.

    2. Re: People are taking the jobs by Entrope · · Score: 1

      So should it be illegal to offer people shitty jobs? How many people would have these jobs then?

    3. Re: People are taking the jobs by Gavagai80 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The problem is not companies like Fiverr. The problem is the culture that celebrates it and refuses to acknowledge that the growth of such companies is a symptom of a serious problem (people unable to find reliable income/benefits who have to settle for developing world working conditions), not a positive development. The fact that Americans celebrate and applaud people working underpaid gigs with no private time means American society is fundamentally sick with twisted values.

      --
      This space intentionally left blank
    4. Re: People are taking the jobs by Entrope · · Score: 0

      Yes, it's sick because people like you think we need to make America look like North Korea because gosh darn it, that government makes sure everyone is treated the same.

    5. Re: People are taking the jobs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Seeing as we have OSHA and minimum wage laws? Yeah, it's supposed to be illegal to offer people shitty jobs. There are minimum standards a job has to meet to be legal under labor laws.

      But I suppose those days are past. Can't have regulations interfering with businesses now, can we? Compassion and decency aren't saleable products.

    6. Re: People are taking the jobs by Neuroelectronic · · Score: 1

      Anarcho-capitalism is working well for Russia, yes?

    7. Re:People are taking the jobs by RightSaidFred99 · · Score: 1

      Yes, because of the _hordes_ of people who die of starvation in the US! Hordes, I tells ya!

      Oh. Wait. That number is literally 0 if you exclude maybe the mentally ill wandering off into the woods and getting lost or something.

    8. Re: People are taking the jobs by computational+super · · Score: 1

      So should it be illegal to offer people shitty jobs?

      Well, that is the logic behind minimum wage laws.

      --
      Proud neuron in the Slashdot hivemind since 2002.
  8. The American obsession with self-reliance by Baron_Yam · · Score: 5, Insightful

    > the American obsession with self-reliance, which makes it more acceptable to applaud an individual for working himself to death than to argue that an individual working himself to death is evidence of a flawed economic system.

    It's a choice between community and individuals. Self-reliance was great back in the day when you could (in theory) walk into the wilds and build your own civilization, but if you want a modern standard of living there are simply too many things to do, too much to know. We rely heavily on people taking on highly specialized roles and ultimately everyone lives better as a result.

    Modern 'self-reliance' is more like modern 'fuck you, I got mine'. It's people exploiting others and making them like it by holding out the carrot of their own anomalous success. And we eat it up because the human brain is shitty at probabilities... we all think WE are going to be the next big exploiter when the odds are far better that we'll win the lottery, and the truth is we're more likely to die by lightning strike than have either of those things happen.

    Americans have to get over their fear of socialism and accept that, all other things being equal, a community that works together is stronger and more prosperous than one that does not. Or they can watch wealth disparity continue to increase, a smaller and smaller portion of the population living like near-Gods while the greater portion has less and less. It'll take time for that to become apparent, so long as bellies are full and everyone has an Internet connection, but eventually the mob rises up and you get a revolution.

    1. Re:The American obsession with self-reliance by DogDude · · Score: 3

      Where are my mod points today?

      --
      I don't respond to AC's.
    2. Re:The American obsession with self-reliance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

      Wow, so wrong on so many levels.

      Cooperation and personal ability are not opposites. You seem to be arguing that willful ignorance and intentional incompetence should be celebrated even more so than they currently are in Hollywood and politics.

      It'll take time for that to become apparent, so long as bellies are full and everyone has an Internet connection, but eventually the mob rises up and you get a revolution.

      Ah, envy, the root of all socialism. If bellies are full, entertainment is plentiful, and all the other needs are covered well enough, why should I care that someone else's food is more expensive than mine or that they have an indoor tennis court while I'm sitting here at my computer completely uninterested in why tennis matches talk about French eggs?

      If the modern poor live more comfortably than the kings of old, is that not a reason to celebrate?

    3. Re:The American obsession with self-reliance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      a community that works together is stronger and more prosperous than one that does not

      The real world does not support that statement. Economies in the EU are mostly in bad shape. The US is strong and growing.

    4. Re:The American obsession with self-reliance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Like... Venezuela, China, Cuba... North Korea? How's Greece doing these days?

      Self-reliance prevents slave governments.

      Y'know, the kind you seem to think are benevolent because socialism is nothing more than "fuck you, I'll tell you what to do." exploiting others and guilt tripping them that it's not theft or slavery because it's all part of a "modern standard of living" or whatever that means du jour.

    5. Re:The American obsession with self-reliance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not sure I have to embrace socialism simply to have a progressive tax code. And while I will not disagree with your assertion that as a community we are all stronger when we work together, when applied to a global scale and including competition against third world countries, there are unquestionably first world individuals who will suffer for it.

    6. Re:The American obsession with self-reliance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > the American obsession with self-reliance, which makes it more acceptable to applaud an individual for working himself to death than to argue that an individual working himself to death is evidence of a flawed economic system.

      It's a choice between community and individuals. Self-reliance was great back in the day when you could (in theory) walk into the wilds and build your own civilization, but if you want a modern standard of living there are simply too many things to do, too much to know. We rely heavily on people taking on highly specialized roles and ultimately everyone lives better as a result.

      Modern 'self-reliance' is more like modern 'fuck you, I got mine'. It's people exploiting others and making them like it by holding out the carrot of their own anomalous success. And we eat it up because the human brain is shitty at probabilities... we all think WE are going to be the next big exploiter when the odds are far better that we'll win the lottery, and the truth is we're more likely to die by lightning strike than have either of those things happen.

      Americans have to get over their fear of socialism and accept that, all other things being equal, a community that works together is stronger and more prosperous than one that does not. Or they can watch wealth disparity continue to increase, a smaller and smaller portion of the population living like near-Gods while the greater portion has less and less. It'll take time for that to become apparent, so long as bellies are full and everyone has an Internet connection, but eventually the mob rises up and you get a revolution.

      Let's not forget that the minute you leave educate (assuming you went to higher education), you have a new car sized loan and have to start providing health insurance for yourself. And, you have to pay property taxes, even on paid off property. The whole system ensures it is impossible to just go and build something, unless you are already wealthy. This is by design.

    7. Re:The American obsession with self-reliance by jlowery · · Score: 5, Informative

      The real world does not support that statement. Economies in the EU are mostly in bad shape. The US is strong and growing

      Yeah, it's wonderful.

      https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/03/economic-despair/520473/?utm_source=feed

      --
      If you post it, they will read.
    8. Re: The American obsession with self-reliance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh god rofflyskatez 'murkins embracing a non-narcissistic approach to life. About as likely as the chinese giving up Communism. Or curing greed. While i certainly agree humans work better together instead of apart, we're also waaaayyyyy too stupid to actually do anything about it. Humans won't band together until we face utter extinction.

    9. Re:The American obsession with self-reliance by OzPeter · · Score: 1

      > the American obsession with self-reliance, which makes it more acceptable to applaud an individual for working himself to death than to argue that an individual working himself to death is evidence of a flawed economic system.

      Americans have to get over their fear of socialism and accept that, all other things being equal, a community that works together is stronger and more prosperous than one that does not.

      Except that the concept of "self reliance" is enshrined in the US constitution and is such a part of the American psyche that I don't know if it can ever be removed.

      (bear with me .. this may seem like a left wing rant, but it is not)

      For example this is seen in the 2nd amendment where the right to bear arms is enshrined. But why would you give someone the right to individually bear arms? That can only be because you want to allow them to be able to unilaterally act in using those arms. Thus in the 2nd amendment you are stating that an ideal of being an American is the power to act (for better or worse) as an individual.

      How can you convince a society to act in a way that is un-selfish when the their society is fundamentally founded on the opposite?

      --
      I am Slashdot. Are you Slashdot as well?
    10. Re: The American obsession with self-reliance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How does that work when the robots are doing everything, and the people are expendable? Does the mob get gunned down?

    11. Re:The American obsession with self-reliance by DarkOx · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Americans have to get over their fear of socialism and accept that, all other things being equal, a community that works together is stronger and more prosperous than one that does not.

      You are both right and totally wrong at the same time. Socialism isn't about community its about the state as a stand in for community! Yes we need to accept that in the modern world very men can be islands. Bureaucracy isn't the answer though, it does not scale. Just sit an watch Argentina, Greece, and for that matter the whole Western Europe as it faces mass immigration! That is the future socialism results in.

      What we need is actually a form of isolationism. We need force the capital class to have some ties to place and their community again. We can't let them just be world tourists! If you make it harder or impossible for them to import labor from elsewhere, make it hard for them to take their capital over national boarders, etc. They will be forced to invest in their local community to secure their own feature. Right now its "I need H1Bs because there are to few qualified Americans" It needs change to "I need to build a science center in $city and donate heavily to the local schools so my business will have pool of qualified people to hire in the future." That is what community is about and that is the relationship between capital and community we need to create.

      --
      Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
    12. Re:The American obsession with self-reliance by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      Trump says the answer is military only.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    13. Re:The American obsession with self-reliance by LordWabbit2 · · Score: 1
      It's because they are leading the race in national debt (obviously).
      So they MUST be doing something right, right?

      The US is strong and growing

      The US is strong and going to go to war again because our economy won't support us doing anything else.
      There, fixed that for you.

      --
      There are three kinds of falsehood: the first is a 'fib,' the second is a downright lie, and the third is statistics.
    14. Re:The American obsession with self-reliance by fluffernutter · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I don't think you really understand what socialism is. You're talking about communism, and not even real communism but the kind that has been implemented in real life. Socialism is merely the government taking an interest in the well being of its citizens over all else.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    15. Re:The American obsession with self-reliance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow, so wrong on so many levels.

      Talking about your own post? Lol what a wooosh!

      You must be a republican douchebag or a russian troll, with that supernatural inability to read the parent post and answer the points you disagree with, you just vomiting what you wanted to regurgitate anyway ...

      The point is not to take away your expensive toys (what are you so afraid of?), it is to make a fair society where the playground is leveled to give everyone the same chances in life and make sure everyone contribute equally, not shaming the poor that cannot afford cost inflated healthcare while giving tax breaks to rich people and companies that would still be extremely wealthy without them because it will eventually trickle down (yeah right, show me the number!), it is not paying your employees wages so low they cannot live decently and have to rely on welfare (because minimum wages is bad for business right, while private corporations indirectly using taxes to pay their worker is intelligent Lol), tips (because it will motivate you to work better Lol), or 1or 2 more shit jobs, just to make ends meet (at this point don't even dream about getting proper healthcare)
      But for ... reasons, it is ok for you as long as you're full and distracted ... you are just a waste of meat

    16. Re:The American obsession with self-reliance by dinfinity · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If the modern poor live more comfortably than the kings of old

      They don't, though.

      Sure, there are a number of aspects of life in which great progress has been made (sanitation, health care, means of communication), but the modern poor still do not have servants, regular feasts with more food and wine than their (many) guests could eat, castles with countless rooms filled with handmade furniture, armies, larges swaths of farmland, stables full of horses, vast private hunting grounds, sailing ships or rooms filled with handmade fine clothing and jewelry.

      Would you honestly choose living like a modern poor person in some shitty housing project or trailer park over living like a king of old in a castle with servants? I highly doubt it.

    17. Re:The American obsession with self-reliance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      'Self Reliance' is more like Fuck You - I had to struggle to get mine so why the hell should I help you? You should have to suffer too. Based on my experiences - I actually ascribe to this sentiment.

    18. Re:The American obsession with self-reliance by operagost · · Score: 1

      Being an individual, instead of a cog in the collective, is not selfish.

      I find these arguments against individuality perplexing, coming from the same people who argue for tolerance of their own individuality when it comes to culture, appearance, the arts, and other creative pursuits.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    19. Re:The American obsession with self-reliance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The right to bear arms was given to the states. When the states tried to abdicate that right to the government it passed to individuals. It was never supposed to be an individual right.

    20. Re:The American obsession with self-reliance by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 1

      How do you do that, without damaging the people who really do want to live without undue reliance on government, and who feel that they are satisfied with the life they can live being self-reliant? They are out there, and they are why we don't have more socialized systems.

      Dislike of the Nanny State is rational; it holds people back. Personally, I like it because it can take care of things for *others* that I cannot, although I much prefer to be left to my own means on a day-to-day basis personally.

    21. Re:The American obsession with self-reliance by Lennie · · Score: 4, Informative

      I 'like' this graph, it shows it very well what is going on:

      https://hbr.org/resources/imag...

      --
      New things are always on the horizon
    22. Re:The American obsession with self-reliance by Lennie · · Score: 1

      The parent did say:

      "It'll take time for that to become apparent"

      It will be to late for a lot of people.

      Most people have no idea what the impact of automation will be.

      --
      New things are always on the horizon
    23. Re:The American obsession with self-reliance by Lennie · · Score: 3, Insightful

      One of the big problems in the US is also regulatory capture. Try fixing that too.

      --
      New things are always on the horizon
    24. Re:The American obsession with self-reliance by jenningsthecat · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You seem to be arguing that willful ignorance and intentional incompetence should be celebrated even more so than they currently are in Hollywood and politics.

      Did you read the same comment I did? Please specify which sentence(s) in GP's post led you to that conclusion.

      If the modern poor live more comfortably than the kings of old, is that not a reason to celebrate?

      You have a pretty shallow notion of comfort. The 'kings of old' enjoyed far more autonomy and freedom than 'the modern poor'; especially the working poor, who may work three jobs to just barely make ends meet, while the largest part of the fruits of their labour is concentrated in the hands of a few people far above them on the socio-economic ladder. A slave is still a slave; it's an existentially uncomfortable position to say the least, even if the slave lives in a palace; and the living conditions of today's slaves are far from palatial.

      --
      'The Economy' is a giant Ponzi scheme whose most pitiable suckers are the youngest among us and the yet-unborn.
    25. Re:The American obsession with self-reliance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's isn't what socialism means either.
      Your "merely" description is very similar to the bogus argument that communism is only taking the root of "community" and saying communism is all about communities looking after each other.

    26. Re:The American obsession with self-reliance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow - can you be anymore of a stereotypical leftist sycophant?

      "Theyre not socialist they're communist and they're not REAL communist because they're failing"

      And socialism is "merely the government taking an interest in the well being of its citizens over all else"

      Like VENEZUELA, CHINA, CUBA AND NORTH KOREA.

      Socialism doesn't work because it's ultimately a dozen PEOPLE dictating who will be the winners in society and their greed will always kick in - which is why you keep having to say "it's not REAL socialism or REAL communism". Because Chavez, Castro, and Kim Jong all ingratiate themselves at the public trough.

    27. Re:The American obsession with self-reliance by Solandri · · Score: 1
      You think Americans work themselves to death? You've never visited Japan or South Korea, have you? If you sort countries by GDP per capita and GDP per hour worked, the U.S. pretty close to the top (after subtracting city-states and countries with disproportionately high oil and banking revenue), indicating that the U.S. economic system works just fine thank you. Japan and South Korea are (substantially) lower, indicating that their citizens are in fact working themselves to death - more work for less productivity.

      What you're arguing is that a better quality of life (measured in time for non-productive activities) is more important than maximizing productivity. That's a legitimate qualitative argument to be making. But it's hardly "evidence of a flawed economic system."

      Also bear in mind that higher productivity means a faster rate of technological progress, and technological progress also translates into higher quality of life (measured in time saved from doing undesirable non-productive activities, like washing clothes). So traveling a path of less than maximum productivity will slowly and invisibly over the years result in a lower quality of life. I'm sure people in the 1950s thought life was great, but that was because they didn't know about what technological advances the future would bring. Would you rather work fewer hours and live with 1950s technology, or work more hours and live with 2010s technology?

      Americans have to get over their fear of socialism and accept that, all other things being equal, a community that works together is stronger and more prosperous than one that does not.

      The problem with socialism is that it's a one size fits all solution. The reason a capitalist economy works is that lots of individual actors rapidly and thoroughly explore the solution space. Those who find better solutions become successful, while those try to set up shop with poor solutions fail and are forced to look elsewhere. I think socialism is great as a safety net (to help those who wound up trying out poor solutions to get back on their feet and try again). But never lose sight of the fact that the purpose of socialism has to be to promote capitalism, not to supplant it. Otherwise you're trading off technological progress for socio-economic stability (and stagnation)

      GSM is a great example. The socialist countries enshrined GSM as the one and only digital phone standard. The U.S. was (and still is) widely reviled for allowing CDMA to compete with GSM. But when cellular data became a thing, CDMA absolutely destroyed GSM. GSM relied on giving each phone a timeslice to communicate with a tower. This meant that a tower had to divide its bandwidth among all phones, even phones which didn't need their full timeslice for data. CDMA allows all phones to transmit simultaneously, and uses orthogonal codes to tell them apart. The transmissions of the other phones then become a noise floor for each particular phone's transmissions. The phones which don't need data at that particular moment simply don't transmit, resulting in less noise and thus more bandwidth for the phones which do need data.

      GSM was vastly inferior at data transmission than CDMA. Within a year GSM threw in the towel and licensed CDMA and added it to the spec (the 3G data standards on GSM mostly used wideband CDMA). If the U.S. had followed the socialist countries and required GSM, our cellular data speeds today would probably be around 1 Mbps. And we probably wouldn't be where we are today with LTE because most LTE implementations use OFDMA - orthogonal frequencies instead of orthogonal codes. CDMA paved the way for LTE by acting as proof of concept that this bizarre "everyone talks at once and we'll use orthogonal x to tell them apart" idea actually works and could scale into a nation-wide network.

    28. Re:The American obsession with self-reliance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No - the rights in the constitution, including the rights to bear arms, were written FOR individuals.

      Or are you going to tell me that the first and fourth amendments only apply to state governments from being searched and practicing religion as they see fit?

      Try again.

    29. Re:The American obsession with self-reliance by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Not quite as well as Sweden, Germany, Austria or France, that's for sure...

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    30. Re:The American obsession with self-reliance by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      There is a difference between being capable of cooperation and being a cog in a collective. It's about as much a difference as between being an individualist and a sociopath.

      I never quite grasp why some people can only think in extremes.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    31. Re: The American obsession with self-reliance by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Who gets gunned down depends entirely on whether they can convince the army or similar powers to work for them and against their interests.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    32. Re:The American obsession with self-reliance by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      More often than not, the person who says "fuck you" never had to struggle to get anything.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    33. Re:The American obsession with self-reliance by houghi · · Score: 1

      Just sit an watch Argentina, Greece, and for that matter the whole Western Europe as it faces mass immigration!

      WTF? You have no idea what you are talking about. I am not saying there are or are not issues, but they are not related to socialism. Comparing Greece with e.g. Sweden or Germany because socialism, means you do not understand that correlation isn't the same as causation.

      I could say that this happens because the governments are mainly white males. And no, socialism is not about a government replacing the community. It is a government that is PART of that community. You could say 'by the people, for the people' if you like.
      And yes, that is it in an ideal situation that will never exist, just like any other ideal.

      What you should get is laws that are made with the people in mind. This means e.g. less working hours, paid holidays. It does not mean you can't start your own company or be self employed.
      But don't be surprised when people tell you that they work to live and not live to work.

      If that means that I have a smaller car (I don't even have a car) or a smaller house, because I have to pay for others to get healthcare and an education, so be it. Because if I have to work less I would like spend time with people who also work less.
      And I like to have a government with laws that reflect that.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    34. Re:The American obsession with self-reliance by meta-monkey · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Americans have to get over their fear of socialism and accept that, all other things being equal, a community that works together is stronger and more prosperous than one that does not.

      Like the USSR? Like Venezuela? You're completely wrong. All socialism does is replace a wealthy class that buys political power with a political class that steals wealth. And rapaciously. The end result is everyone (except our political class) begging for $5.

      --
      We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
    35. Re:The American obsession with self-reliance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      1) feasts were ways to use up overharvest that could not be properly stored for the winters
      2) before central heating and insulation, the castles were drafty buildings that needed fireplaces in every inhabited room during much of the year
      3) handmade furniture was the only kind at the time, mass production was an odd dream of a few
      4) armies were expenses, not luxuries
      5) the farmland is delegated to the Midwest states, and the produce available everywhere
      6) who needs 10 horses when even a cheap car can match 50?
      7) if you want the idealized pleasure of a hunt, Sony can help. If you want meat, check the market
      8) the old ships weren't as fancy as you imagine
      9) ok, yeah the jewelry is hard to match as gold and silver reserves haven't grown that much. But the quality is better if you do get some modern bling

    36. Re:The American obsession with self-reliance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The (previous) Argentinian government was not really socialist, and it was extremely corrupt...

    37. Re:The American obsession with self-reliance by AmiMoJo · · Score: 0

      the whole Western Europe as it faces mass immigration!

      Germany, which accepted the most immigrants quite willingly, has a conservative government.

      Socialism isn't about community its about the state as a stand in for community!

      No, socialism is about ensuring that the community is fair to everyone. Otherwise it just becomes another Animal Farm.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    38. Re:The American obsession with self-reliance by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      Self-reliance was great back in the day when you could (in theory) walk into the wilds and build your own civilization, but if you want a modern standard of living...

      Many in the US are still more or less in this "live off the land" mentality, and that's why they consistently vote against larger-scale civilization and coordination.

      Whether this rural viewpoint is realistic or good is another thing. But it's not going away any time soon. The culture wars burn on...

    39. Re:The American obsession with self-reliance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, but no antibiotics or emergency rooms.

    40. Re:The American obsession with self-reliance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except that the concept of "self reliance" is enshrined in the US constitution

      WHAT A LOAD OF HORSE-CRAP

      "We the People"

      "in Order to form a more perfect Union"

      "provide for the common defence"

      "promote the general Welfare"

      The Constitution could not be more explicit, it is a work of COOPERATION and WORKING TOGEHER.

      What an idiot you are.

    41. Re:The American obsession with self-reliance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the obesity epidemic in the USA says different. Especially when broken out by income.

    42. Re: The American obsession with self-reliance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You may find this analogy illuminative.
      Running message board:
      User1: How can I compete better in this weeks race?
      User2: Put thumbtacks in your shoes. It will hurt at first, but it will activate your inner reserve.

      User2 doesn't actually put thumb tacks in his shoes. He just want to eliminate viable competition. If you trust him, he will blame you for being stupid, rationalizing his fuckery.

    43. Re:The American obsession with self-reliance by eaglesrule · · Score: 1

      "Somehow, we got into a discussion of the responsibility of management. Holden made the point that management's responsibility is to the shareholders – that's the end of it. And I objected. I said, 'I think you're absolutely wrong. Management has a responsibility to its employees, it has a responsibility to its customers, it has a responsibility to the community at large.' And they almost laughed me out of the room."- David Packard

      For most monied interests, the choice between between unapologetic greed in maximizing profit, or demonstrating loyalty to the community that harbors them, is not difficult at all. We have to give them a reason to care, else we remain merely a natural resource to be consumed and exploited. Anyone having chronic medical issues and having a for-profit middleman that is an insurance corporation between them and their doctor will quickly understand the shortcomings of a purely capitalist society.

    44. Re: The American obsession with self-reliance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is a lot of words to say yes.

      Though I guess only the front gets shot. The rest get trampled and then starve.

    45. Re:The American obsession with self-reliance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Denizins note - This is populism and it will be the death of western nations. This man is selling you cryptofacist ideals.

      Borders keep out prosperity. Tariffs are taxes on yourself. Your country is nothing without trade.

      The "capital class" knows this and will simply leave the shithole your isolationist policies will create. Heed this warning or become a slave.

    46. Re: The American obsession with self-reliance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So... Fivvvverrr?

    47. Re:The American obsession with self-reliance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Japan has an initial annual leave entitlement of 10 days. They also work less hours per week average than in the US.

      South Korea has 15 days leave, and 40 hour work week enshrined in law. The 40 hour limit isn't universally enforced, but the company I worked for there enforced it.

      The US has no required paid vacation, and no ban on mandatory overtime. 23% of US Employers offer no paid vacation at all. There are a few industries/jobs that have restrictions on overtime, but not many.

      Higher productivity recently has meant more automation, which does result in better quality of life for the owners of the company, but does not result in higher quality of life for the workers out of a job, or the lower wages in general that usually result from more automation. GDP vs. income is a better measure or quality of life, and it hasn't kept pace. http://economistsview.typepad....

      Cell phone data transmission standards are NOT even AN example of where on the sliding scale of socialism/capitalism a country falls, as 70-75% of the world uses GSM, and it's usage is not determined by political ideology. It's kind of stupid to have two "standards" in the same country. And since the US has the 35th fastest mobile internet speeds, it's nothing to brag about.

      There is absolutely no basis for the assertion that cell speeds would have been slower if the US adopted GSM only. They are much more likely to be faster if the whole world was working on making the same thing faster instead of wasting resources on deploying a second standard. And most likely cheaper, as they wouldn't have had to license anything. It's not like the CDMA standard uses anything incredibly novel or difficult to figure out, it's just that they locked up the patents on it in the mobile space, requiring licensing.

    48. Re:The American obsession with self-reliance by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      More like norther European countries.

      Your argument is the standard anti-socialist straw man. Pick the worst examples of extreme socialism, rather than the moderate (but still extreme by US standards) socialist countries where it works and which exceed the US in almost every metric that matters.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    49. Re:The American obsession with self-reliance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > a community that works together is stronger and more prosperous than one that does not.

      And the point of Socialism is to *make* people work together...

    50. Re:The American obsession with self-reliance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the modern poor live more comfortably than the kings of old

      I'll bet you're one of those people who also believes that the modern rich are being oppressed.

    51. Re:The American obsession with self-reliance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How about like Germany, the Netherlands, and Denmark? The post you're replying to isn't arguing for "state ownership of the means of the production" type socialism - he's arguing for "let's all chip in to manage our risks" type of socialism. If you're going to argue, argue the point being made, not a straw man of it.

    52. Re: The American obsession with self-reliance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I suggest you save some of your time virtue signaling by looking into chartiable donations by politcal leaning. Those republican douchebags you speak of do far more for their fellow man on average than left leaning who call people names and talk a big game, but when push comes to shove, they do dick all. Its all about the feels for you fucks.

      Personally, I dont think its the governments job to take care of my neighbors of I think their kids are hungry and I dont punt my responsibility to "I pay my taxes." I also pay my employees on average 15% more than I take home. When times get slow, Im the one who doesnt get a paycheck.

      So all in all, go fuck yourself. You keep concentrating on the world. Ill keep worrying about my neighborhood, friends, family, and any one in my circle of influence just like everyone else with a brain.

    53. Re: The American obsession with self-reliance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you mean extremely homogenious cultures who have similar value systems?

    54. Re:The American obsession with self-reliance by meta-monkey · · Score: 0

      More like norther European countries.

      Oh, you're a white supremacist nazi now?

      --
      We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
    55. Re:The American obsession with self-reliance by dinfinity · · Score: 1

      1) feasts were ways to use up overharvest that could not be properly stored for the winters

      Bullshit (if you believe no king of old ever had a feast out of decadence, you are a fool) and even if true it would be besides the point. The point was about plentifulness. In addition one could make a point of the quality of the food, which for a king would be very good, even by today's standards. Haute cuisine cooking is not high-tech stuff. The ingredients are still key.

      2) before central heating and insulation, the castles were drafty buildings that needed fireplaces in every inhabited room during much of the year

      The servants deal with the wood and the fireplaces. Problem solved.

      3) handmade furniture was the only kind at the time, mass production was an odd dream of a few

      Yep, and you can bet your bottom that the king had the nicest handmade furniture in the realm.

      4) armies were expenses, not luxuries

      Yeah, tell that to the peasants who were executed without a fair trial. Even now, in the US, poor people are easily fucked over by the law.

      5) the farmland is delegated to the Midwest states, and the produce available everywhere

      Which poor people can't afford. They are mostly stuck with cheap and terrible fast'food'.
      Also, the point was about owning land and having control over it.

      6) who needs 10 horses when even a cheap car can match 50?

      People who like to go horseback riding, play polo, hunt on horseback, tame horses, have horse races, or like dressage (you'll notice a trend of amusement and required amount of wealth here).

      7) if you want the idealized pleasure of a hunt, Sony can help. If you want meat, check the market

      Missed the point again. This again revolves around owning resources.

      8) the old ships weren't as fancy as you imagine

      Yeah, you could probably buy one of those for 10 bucks nowadays. Who the hell wants a sailing ship anyway?

      9) ok, yeah the jewelry is hard to match as gold and silver reserves haven't grown that much. But the quality is better if you do get some modern bling

      Your arguments get progressively weaker. This one is just laughable. In essence you are saying "modern poor people live more comfortable than the kings of old because even though the kings had massive amounts expensive jewelry, modern jewelry is slightly nicer if a poor person would have the funds to buy them."

    56. Re:The American obsession with self-reliance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Also it's total false. America has the biggest corporations in the world. And most american people work in corporate america. American dream is just a lie propagated by Hollywood. Which in turn ruled by conglomerates roflmao... Now go back to your cubicle!

    57. Re:The American obsession with self-reliance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Americans have to get over their fear of socialism and accept that, all other things being equal, a community that works together is stronger and more prosperous than one that does not.

      You are both right and totally wrong at the same time. Socialism isn't about community its about the state as a stand in for community! Yes we need to accept that in the modern world very men can be islands. Bureaucracy isn't the answer though, it does not scale. Just sit an watch Argentina, Greece, and for that matter the whole Western Europe as it faces mass immigration! That is the future socialism results in.

      What we need is actually a form of isolationism. We need force the capital class to have some ties to place and their community again. We can't let them just be world tourists! If you make it harder or impossible for them to import labor from elsewhere, make it hard for them to take their capital over national boarders, etc. They will be forced to invest in their local community to secure their own feature. Right now its "I need H1Bs because there are to few qualified Americans" It needs change to "I need to build a science center in $city and donate heavily to the local schools so my business will have pool of qualified people to hire in the future." That is what community is about and that is the relationship between capital and community we need to create.

      Have you heard of globalization... at all? Much cheaper to build up and be a "world tourist" in another country than stay here. There's no leverage to keep wealth here, and putting up a wall to keep it in will simply accelerate investments elsewhere.

    58. Re:The American obsession with self-reliance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The socialism-capitalism divide is a red herring that's killing our society.

      What's really significant is whether the government promotes competition in its exchange of goods, services, and ideas among its citizens.

      Too much government control results in inefficient monopoly. So does private control.

      Sometimes its in the best interests of competition to provide government services, when the private sector cannot or will not; sometimes it is in the best interests of competition to back out. Social services increase competition by increasing the labor pool; so do laws increasing fairness in financial dealings; but then so too, do laws deregulating certain sectors.

    59. Re: The American obsession with self-reliance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fuck uber! If you cant afford a wage that allows you to participate in drassage, its slave labor!

      You fucking idiot twat.

    60. Re:The American obsession with self-reliance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Umm Socialism is so great it has worked in The USSR, Cuba, Greece and Venezuela. Or NOT.
      Capitalism fails the weak and timid and rewards the smart and hard working. Socialism makes everyone poor except those willing to lie about Socialism.
      Please show me an example of Socialism working in a large diverse country. Sweden had it working, but the influx of non-blondes is breaking it.

    61. Re:The American obsession with self-reliance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We need to make teachers part of the solution and not part of the problem.
      Some teacher suggested sending the poor students into the military, where THEY could make the kids learn to read.
      The better solution is to draft the teachers and make the kids realize they are in a cut throat competition with the rest of the world.
      Learn to work HARD and fight for your language, borders and culture.

    62. Re:The American obsession with self-reliance by meta-monkey · · Score: 1

      But in this context OP was selling socialism as a cure for the problem of Americans scrounging for $5. We're not talking about social services here. How are social services going to solve the problem of people busting ass for $5?

      Your point would be valid if the topic were, say, Americans having shitty health care and so you want government to provide some of those services. But when the problem is "Americans don't have jobs so some are sucking dick for $5" and you say "time for socialism!" you're not talking "single-payer health care" socialism but "workers of the world unite" socialism, so my criticism is valid.

      --
      We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
    63. Re: The American obsession with self-reliance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nazis get punched.

    64. Re:The American obsession with self-reliance by operagost · · Score: 1

      It's not "cooperation" when the government makes you do it.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    65. Re:The American obsession with self-reliance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1) feasts were ways to use up overharvest that could not be properly stored for the winters
      2) before central heating and insulation, the castles were drafty buildings that needed fireplaces in every inhabited room during much of the year
      3) handmade furniture was the only kind at the time, mass production was an odd dream of a few
      4) armies were expenses, not luxuries
      5) the farmland is delegated to the Midwest states, and the produce available everywhere
      6) who needs 10 horses when even a cheap car can match 50?
      7) if you want the idealized pleasure of a hunt, Sony can help. If you want meat, check the market
      8) the old ships weren't as fancy as you imagine
      9) ok, yeah the jewelry is hard to match as gold and silver reserves haven't grown that much. But the quality is better if you do get some modern bling

      1) Yeah, but peasants weren't the ones hosting feasts. Also, since when does wine go bad over the winter?
      2) Correct. And yet, kings had the resources at hand to support this lifestyle.
      3) And well made furniture was even more rare. But it existed. And guess where it was located?
      4) Expenses required to keep your vast sovereignty and expand your influence. Modern dictators have this same expense. By no means does anyone consider them poor or worse off because of it. Quite the opposite.
      5) You get to collect taxes and/or tithes from the Midwest?!
      6) You think everyone in the projects or the trailer park can afford their own car? I know plenty who have to get rides from friends/family because they can't.
      7) Neither was the point of hunting grounds. The point of hunting grounds was to monopolize supply and create an artificially rare resource you could exploit for your own gain. The modern poor do not have anything that compares to this.
      8) I never imagined ships to be particularly fancy. But I do not own a conveyance that can take me anywhere in the known world at the fastest known speed if I should desire to. And I'm not even poor.
      9) I know that whenever I go to my poorer friends' houses I'm quite impressed by their extensive bling collection...
      10) I notice you conveniently neglected to mention servants. The modern poor have some appliances to automate some of the work servants used to do, but it would still be better to be a king in an old castle than a modern person in poverty.

    66. Re:The American obsession with self-reliance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... shows it very well what is going on ...

      It shows more than the disparity between productivity and wages: It shows that when people were losing their homes and jobs during the GFC, productivity didn't decrease.

    67. Re:The American obsession with self-reliance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Autarky is impossible. Nazi Germany wanted to be self-reliant economically. Then they figured out they needed all of Europe (and kill most of the locals) to make it work.

    68. Re:The American obsession with self-reliance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And here I was thinking that my being a libertarian socialist meant that I was against a state stand in for community. You really cleared that up for me. Or maybe you cannot believe everything you been told while growing up or what they spew on the news.

    69. Re:The American obsession with self-reliance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or for a non-imperialist example: The Red Khmers tried to set up an autarkic national economy.

    70. Re:The American obsession with self-reliance by Kernel+Kurtz · · Score: 1

      All socialism does is replace a wealthy class that buys political power with a political class that steals wealth.

      Why do I find those two examples equally repugnant........?

    71. Re:The American obsession with self-reliance by Waccoon · · Score: 1

      Right now its "I need H1Bs because there are to few qualified Americans"

      Right now it's "I need H1Bs because US law demands US citizens receive benefits, and qualified Americans cost more than foreigners."

      Corporations are pretty much pioneers of isolationism. They put up with community only if they have to, which is why they had that layoff right before yet another profitable Christmas.

    72. Re:The American obsession with self-reliance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the poor guy owns their own house, has healthcare, has a car, a computer, internet connection, a fridge and a TV. Then fuck yes I want to live like a poor person now rather than a king of old. Can't enjoy your wealth if you're dead at 39 from Tetanus.

    73. Re:The American obsession with self-reliance by Lennie · · Score: 1

      Could it be: one of the things it shows is that technology is making things cheaper including labour.

      --
      New things are always on the horizon
    74. Re:The American obsession with self-reliance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Which is most likely worse in Western Europe anyways...

    75. Re:The American obsession with self-reliance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Germany, Japan and other Axis powers attempted to stop this global tyranny that was then the British Empire, its American ally, and the Soviet Union.

      They failed.

      Until New York and London burn to the ground and every banker and their children and grandchildren are mericiously executed, you will never be free.

      Every major religion in the world prophesizes that this reality will end with the forces of darkness ruling this world. These people are demonically inspired harbingers of the apocalypse.

    76. Re:The American obsession with self-reliance by raind · · Score: 1

      Good point, alas it may be to late when we realize it. Of course the monied wil be ok, for awhile.

      --
      Get up!
    77. Re:The American obsession with self-reliance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think you forgot Sweden...oh wait that doesn't fit.

  9. Yep by Syphonius · · Score: 0

    News for Nerds for sure.

  10. The Puritan philosophy of human worth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This all stems from the widespread adoption in America of the the Puritan philosophy of human worth, best summed up as "the quality, quantity, and duration of achievement."

    So, yes, by their standards the ultimate goal is to work hard, until death, to earn a place by the side of god as the most righteous. The bonus is that this also allows the hardest workers in life to demean those who have not worked so hard.

    1. Re:The Puritan philosophy of human worth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "'Work ennobles', but the nobles hardly ever work."

    2. Re:The Puritan philosophy of human worth by Opportunist · · Score: 2

      That's stupid. Simple and plainly.

      Work is the necessary evil to get money. Nothing more, nothing less. I can find stuff to do just fine myself, there is no need to keep me occupied. But I need money, like everyone else. That is the only reason to work.

      Any work has to provide enough money to make it worth the time wasted on it.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    3. Re:The Puritan philosophy of human worth by AmiMoJo · · Score: 0

      Employers who get value from permanent staff, who learn the job and build up skills/knowledge, are motivated to treat those people well. People who hire someone for a single gig and then never have to deal with them again are motivated to exploit them as much as possible.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    4. Re:The Puritan philosophy of human worth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You ignorant twit you completely have no concept of what you're talking about.

      The ethics of working hard isn't for money or personal gratification. It was to achieve, wait for it, PROGRESS - to move society forward through self-sacrifice and enable the group to survive into the next generation. That, they believed, was what God wanted.

      Because if people didn't work and didn't contribute, the people starved.

      And they still do - because that's the bonus socialism gives you.

  11. So now we need warning labels on jobs??? by aicrules · · Score: 0

    Go fuck yourself. Seriously. Fuck yourself. People can work all manner of jobs too much to the point of being burnt out or worse. It's up to you as a free fucking human being to figure out how much you can handle and how much you want to work. I do not want your handholding bullshit anywhere near me. I make mistakes, I fucking deal with the consequences. I make informed decisions. I don't let a commercial convince me to work 24 hours a day 7 days a week. And if you do, well you've already fucked yourself by being stupid as fuck and society doesn't need that stupidity in it. Gah I hate this Jia fucker so much and I don't even know who it is.

    1. Re:So now we need warning labels on jobs??? by DogDude · · Score: 1

      You should probably seek some medical attention.

      --
      I don't respond to AC's.
    2. Re:So now we need warning labels on jobs??? by aicrules · · Score: 1

      Jokes on you, I'm posting from the psych ward of a federal prison.

    3. Re:So now we need warning labels on jobs??? by mean+pun · · Score: 1

      Yeah, the OP sounds close to a burnout.

    4. Re:So now we need warning labels on jobs??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nice rant. Still, you need to acknowledge the existence of information asymmetry. The world is not black and white, and there is never perfect information on which you base your hyperrational, Randianly objective decisions.

      Captcha: vendor

    5. Re: So now we need warning labels on jobs??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How much I want to work is irrelevant... it is a.matter of how much I HAVE to work to keep paying the bills. So fuck you.

    6. Re:So now we need warning labels on jobs??? by adamjgp · · Score: 1

      And what about those people who make mistakes and have to deal with the consequences... Should people have to live awful lives working themselves to death because of a bad decision decades ago? Isn't that like saying to sick people "Fuck you, pay for medical care or die. You shouldn't have gotten sick in the first place, and this all could have been avoided"? Not everyone has the aptitude that you have, does that mean that they need to be relegated to a life of wage slavery, working more and more for less and less just to not starve to death?

    7. Re:So now we need warning labels on jobs??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      keep that opinion when you have mouths to feed and your boss says he needs 25 hours of mandatory overtime for the next 10 weeks or be fired. because that apparently is in fact legal.

    8. Re: So now we need warning labels on jobs??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Translation: I got mine, so fuck everyone else

    9. Re:So now we need warning labels on jobs??? by aicrules · · Score: 1

      What does this have to do with voluntarily working more hours? Mary, the first subject of the article, made a choice and it had consequences. She was not forced to work, she chose to work. She decided to take the risk, and she put herself and her riders in a precarious situations. This was not Lyft's fault. This was 100% Mary's fault. Did she do it because she truly needed the money because she was about to give birth and not be able to work? Maybe, but that still isn't Lyft's fault that she made that choice. Working McDonald's isn't for everybody. Working Lyft isn't for everybody. That doesn't mean you won't find yourself needing to do something you don't really want to do as a job when you need money for food, shelter and bills. But that still isn't Lyft's fault. The entire problem I have with this article is somehow because Lyft and others follow the "gig" business model that FORCES people to make bad choices and risk themselves and others. Argue all you want that Lyft's pay scale or lack of benefits isn't reasonable, but Mary knew that when she signed up. People need to take responsibility for themselves and not expect the world to be covered in soft blankets and warning labels. That doesn't mean companies, society, or friends and family shouldn't help, but articles like this try to pin blame in a way that absolves people of personal responsibility for their choices.

      There are absolutely companies who take advantage of their workers. They know they can corral them into working long hours for nothing. The "gig" economy is specifically counter to that because it exists to be a "use it when you want to" job. Got extra time? Go be an uber or lyft driver if you want to make a few bucks. This article this goes further and calls America's desire for self-reliance an obsession in a bad way. When it fucking comes down to it, there is literally only one person you CAN rely on. And that's YOU. The more you give that self-reliance up, the less free you are and eventually there won't be anything left. And if you think that's utopian, then I would never want to see your idea of Utopia even from a distance.

    10. Re:So now we need warning labels on jobs??? by operagost · · Score: 1

      That's a straw man, and you know it. This is a separate issue from things like health care. We could have universal health care and still support gigs.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    11. Re: So now we need warning labels on jobs??? by aicrules · · Score: 1

      I take personal responsibility. That is all. I don't want government or anyone else feeling like they have to baby me for me to get through that scary thing called life. Lyft and other "gig" based work companies are creating work for people who either don't have 100% availability or just want to earn a few bucks here and there. If you turn that around and take every "gig" and fill in 24 hours a day all week, or drive passengers around when you're 9 months pregnant that wasn't Lyft hurting you. That was you hurting you. So what? Make it so Lyft drivers can't work as much as they want to? Or that they have to submit to medical evaluations once a week and have a doctor's note saying they can drive? What is the warning label going to say "Warning: While most people realize you can't work 24/7 without dying, the surgeon general wants you to know that you can die from working."

      I have told more than one friend that I think they are working themselves too much. Some take that advice and slow down, some just keep on trucking. But it's their choice. It isn't up to their employer(s) or the government to say "Hey, slow down". How's a gig company gonna know if you worked 80 hours at five other jobs so you driving for them for 20 hours this week was actually detrimental to your health? What exactly is wrong with gig companies existing to let you the worker choose just how much you're comfortable doing? And how are you so weak minded that a commercial/slogan that implies you should work hard would suspend all of your common sense and just keep working harder?

    12. Re:So now we need warning labels on jobs??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the psych ward of a federal prison.

      You're management?

    13. Re:So now we need warning labels on jobs??? by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      At some point you have to call a spade a spade and look at how much opportunity the average low-income person really has to pull them selves out of the state they find themselves in. A person needs enough to live, so the less they make the more they have to work.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    14. Re:So now we need warning labels on jobs??? by adamjgp · · Score: 1

      I am using healthcare as an example to show that the statement "It's up to you as a free fucking human being to figure out how much you can handle and how much you want to work." is false. It is not up to me as a human being to figure out how much work I can handle and how much work I want to do. It is up to my requirements to live. I need to afford food, water, shelter, etc. If I cannot afford those things I die. This is directly related to the current US healthcare model, or at least the one that our politicians in power favor... if you can't afford to pay for healthcare, you die.

    15. Re:So now we need warning labels on jobs??? by aicrules · · Score: 1

      This article doesn't introduce grey. It is firmly on the idea that poor worker bees have no self control and will die working themselves to the bone solely because gig companies promote working when you can.

    16. Re:So now we need warning labels on jobs??? by dreamstateseven · · Score: 1

      Uber never struck me as intending to be someone's full time 40 - 60 hour working job. The early (innocent) model to me seemed more as the post above stated -- "Got extra time?" then yeah, put that idling car to work. But then people viewed it as a potential for a full-time job when it never really seemed to have the foundation to be such a thing. That said, I fully acknowledge that there was an aggressive ad campaign showing how much people could make driving for Uber Black etc. But I think it's a similar thing with AirBnb -- the original "model" as I saw it, was a forum for people to rent out a room BnB STYLE. Where you wake up, and have breakfast with the owners of a property in a far off land before you go off and do a tourism thing or play a gig. But then it's descended into a glorified lodging site to a profitable ends for many. I think that's part of the issue with the whole gig-economy. Lack of controls around this mean there will be people that try to profit from a model that wasn't quite intended to be used in such a way, and then those that try and squeeze wages out of a job that doesn't really have that much fruit to bear (that again, are hit with the marketing campaigns that also seem to fall outside of any control mechanism).

    17. Re:So now we need warning labels on jobs??? by aicrules · · Score: 1

      Lyft doesn't exist and Mary, subject of article, wouldn't have even had that option for income. How dare Lyft exist and provide Mary with a way to make cash through her entire pregnancy.

    18. Re:So now we need warning labels on jobs??? by aicrules · · Score: 1

      You can work too hard at any job. I could have 3 jobs working 40 hours a week each, none of them "gig" jobs and be carted off the the loony bin after a few months. I take major exception with bullshitters like the article writer saying the gig economy forces or tricks people into working too hard for their own good. Hence my "go fuck yourself" laden original post. And just to make the article even more of a idiot-fest, the writer bashes the idea of self-reliance. Because relying on the government/corporation to take care of you is exactly what you want, right? Fuck that.

    19. Re:So now we need warning labels on jobs??? by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      A commercial? No of course not. But how about HAVING to work 3 jobs just to make ends meet because you're paid SO little money that you have no CHOICE!

      See how quickly that "self reliance" and "free fucking human being" goes out the window?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    20. Re:So now we need warning labels on jobs??? by aicrules · · Score: 1

      Except that isn't at all what this disgusting article is about. It's about how gig economy jobs supposedly trick you into trading your welfare for pittance. "Normalizing" the idea that earning $11 is more important than seeking urgent medical care? What the actual fuck? Writer takes what Mary said was the reason and says no wait but what if it's because her logical decision making has been compromised by evil Lyft and other gig company marketing. Because Mary is a stupid moron who can barely tie her own shoes? No, Mary made a choice. Perhaps out of her circumstances she felt it was worth the risk. Are we really so worried that people can't think for themselves that we're ready to excoriate an entire business model? If people's minds are that weak, then this is the last area we need to be worried about. Think about all those horrible TV shows and movies that just come right out and say so many horrible things are okay! Now we're past "but think of the children!" we're now at "but think of the morons"!

    21. Re:So now we need warning labels on jobs??? by aicrules · · Score: 1

      And further how will your government reliance treat you when suddenly that government can't support you any more? Sequestration? Country in bankruptcy? What about when the world all goes to shit and it's anarchy? Where is your communist/facist god now? I tell you where, he's standing over your corpse taking your supplies.

    22. Re:So now we need warning labels on jobs??? by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      The point is exactly that Mary more often than not does not have that choice. Her choice is to either take a crappy gig that she knows isn't going to pay enough or to NOT have any money whatsoever.

      You call that choice? Are you high?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    23. Re:So now we need warning labels on jobs??? by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Nobody is talking about government reliance. I'm talking about a job that pays decent money instead of forcing people to sell themselves into slavery.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    24. Re:So now we need warning labels on jobs??? by aicrules · · Score: 1

      Yes it is still a choice. Not every choice has a pretty, happily ever after option. If Lyft gigs didn't exist, she wouldn't even HAVE that option. In Jia Tolentino's opinion, that's better for Mary...to not have the choice of working a Lyft. Because it's better not to have the option to work for money you think is worth it because someone else thinks it's too little money for you to make?

    25. Re:So now we need warning labels on jobs??? by aicrules · · Score: 1

      Without Lyft, who is Mary going to get this money from that she apparently needs to much that she puts her health in danger to get it? Reduce the number of options you have and you put supply even further below demand and that puts the suppliers (employers) in a position to offer lower wages. Jia hates the idea of praising people for doing what it takes to make ends meet and be successful. Jia is a moron. Jia wants a participation trophy for only giving 25% effort.

    26. Re:So now we need warning labels on jobs??? by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      The fallacy is that if you take away a bad business that there will be no business. Guess what: Just because we disallowed you from having slaves doesn't mean that there was no cotton to be picked anymore. The work still has to be done, if you can't get slaves to do it, you might have to pay workers to do it.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    27. Re:So now we need warning labels on jobs??? by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      As said before, the work still needs to be done. The difference is that it's not going to be done by a slave driver using slaves to get it done.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    28. Re:So now we need warning labels on jobs??? by aicrules · · Score: 1

      Yes, and healthcare isn't free to create. What right do you have to the doctor's time? Se paid for her education, she took the time to get it. She put in all the hours of residency etc... to make it happen. Working back to back to back to back 18 hour shifts. And the medical device company who spent billions building that latest tech? Are you also entitled to their time and money? Drug company spends billions on a drug over a decade or more and suddenly you get to have it for free? Guess how long that doctor, medical device company, and drug company exist even if they are free to use? They would be gone faster than you can say "but think of the children." You are free to go start your own drug company and give away the fruits of your labor all you want. But you won't last. Go to 12 years of college and give away your services if you want, but you won't be able to buy your family dinner on gratitude. You know what happened a lot in early United States? Pioneers died of starvation and dehydration if they didn't get food and water on their own. Now we expect those things to be given to us? All it will take is one major event keeping the nanny state from shoving its teat in your poor incapable mouth and all the Jia's of the country will be dead in a week.

    29. Re:So now we need warning labels on jobs??? by aicrules · · Score: 1

      Lyft isn't a bad business. Jia is a slacker who wants something for nothing. Lyft provides a service and pays a certain rate. People choose to use it or work there. So take lyft out of the equation. What would Mary have done for money? Some magical job that paid more that appeared because Lyft wasn't there?

    30. Re:So now we need warning labels on jobs??? by xession · · Score: 1

      And if you do, well you've already fucked yourself by being stupid as fuck and society doesn't need that stupidity in it.

      Are you unaware that half half of the population is less intelligent than the other half? Are you suggesting that since the more intelligent half of the population is more knowledgeable and probably less likely to make poor decisions, that the less intelligent half should be exploited due to their lack of knowledge in the matter?

      Oh but I'm sure you are so much better than all those stupid fucks on the bottom half. You made it clear in the above. All those stupid fucks can continue to make poor decisions and hurt themselves and hurt others because who gives a fuck about them. Hope they don't make a poor decision that hurts you though. That would be tragic. Poetic justice on their part, but tragic.

    31. Re:So now we need warning labels on jobs??? by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      People still need to be transported.

      Mary may not be the one doing the transportation, but someone will. In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter whether it's Mary, Peter or Paul who does the job.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    32. Re:So now we need warning labels on jobs??? by aicrules · · Score: 1

      So you're going to penalize Mary because she is willing to work the job for less. The grand scheme of things doesn't care about anybody doing the job. The grand scheme of things is the universe of which we are an inconsequential part. In Mary's grand scheme of things, Lyft was a good option. In Paul's or Peter's maybe it isn't. So Paul and Peter choose not to work for Lyft while Mary does. I don't see any problem with that.

    33. Re:So now we need warning labels on jobs??? by aicrules · · Score: 1

      If half the population was dumb enough to need all these warning labels, they would already have weeded themselves out. We're playing to a lowest common denominator here. Correcting for an issue for everybody when it's really just a PERCEIVED issue for a few. Did you know you can die from drinking too much water? This Jia character hates hard work. She thinks everyone should be able to put in minimum effort and get the same as those that go all out. Pursuit of excellence or as she called it an obsession with self-reliance is CORE to the American Dream. Land of opportunity. Not land of guaranteed income and all needs met for you. Opportunity is not taken advantage of for you on your behalf. You have to go get it. Some people have to work harder than others to get it for so many reasons. Equal opportunity just means the opportunties are there for everybody, not that it takes the same level of effort to achieve. If I'm willing to work twice as hard for half as much as another person, then that is my opportunity to take. I grew up in a poor household. My parents lived with my mom's parents because they couldn't afford a house of their own. I could have easily settled into McDonald's job at 15 and cruised along at that and been living in a crowded home making a little over minimum wage at 25 years old. But I told myself I wouldn't settle for easy. I had dreams and I knew what I needed to do to achieve them. And I did what it took to achieve them. Now because someone is too dumb to realize Lyft is exploiting them (even though they aren't) then I have to suffer whether it's paying more in taxes or not having a service like Lyft available. To steal Obama's socialist/communist bullshit: You didn't build that! Hence my original post referring to those who think they know better what is good for me or any other free citizen: GO. FUCK. YOURSELF.

    34. Re:So now we need warning labels on jobs??? by Blaskowicz · · Score: 1

      In case of healthcare what the United States does is an immense failure. Trillions wasted on middle men, advertisement, their private death panels, cost of poor health and premature deaths, and the best is when people show up on the emergency room costing $100,000 or $200,000 (if not more) whereas in a more sensible system a poor person will make a doctor visit, costing perhaps $50 or $100 for the doctor and the medication. (with an "immoral" $0 bill for the user)
      You're free to be right-wing, libertarian, whatever but this is where I draw a figurative line, your "go home and die" attitude is vile and pointless. I guess you're pissed by the fire department as well.
      Even more pointless since private healthcare plans amount to private taxation anyway. Might as well wish for medieval warlords to assault and ransom you every time you try to go the next town over. Universal healthcare is similar but with a bigger pool and cheaper.

    35. Re:So now we need warning labels on jobs??? by Blaskowicz · · Score: 1

      I want to (preemptively) add that in a putative society where you have small government that only do a few things like Police and I don't remember what.. Why not, just add universal healthcare to the very small list. Abolish everything else if you wish, but this is the last thing that should be removed. Actually, it's a product of 2nd Industrial Revolution capitalism and there were also hospitals in feudal times, so if that's good for capitalists and feudal countries why wouldn't it be good for minarchists/libertarian etc.
      You like money and lethal force I think, but nothing else. Money, lethal force and healthcare : having all three suits human nature better.

    36. Re:So now we need warning labels on jobs??? by Blaskowicz · · Score: 1

      You lived in a house with your parents and grandparents. This is a nice thing, many should envy you. Really, lol.
      And I don't want to dispute your poverty credential or something like that. Maybe Western society is going to the crapper due to the nuclear family - even the supposedly great two-parent family isn't all that great when the parents are apathetic, then there are the household with one parent, and the young adults on their own who can't dream of a min wage job for life.
      Now the SMS girls and Pokemon kids are having kids I guess. Shit will hit the fan.

      Now because someone is too dumb to realize Lyft is exploiting them (even though they aren't) then I have to suffer whether it's paying more in taxes or not having a service like Lyft available

      What if Lyft is running an illegal employment scheme and you have to suffer whether it's paying more taxes or having less customers for your business.

    37. Re:So now we need warning labels on jobs??? by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      The problem is the race to the bottom. Given enough pressure, you'll get people working for less than it costs them to recover the cost, working for just enough money to cover running costs but not cover for the investment (i.e. their car in this example). Any businessman working like this WILL go out of business eventually when his machines break down and he only tried to recover running costs but never fixed costs.

      People do not know that. And even if they do they cannot afford to take it into consideration because according to your model, they only have the choice between accepting that they will be starving in 2 years when their car breaks down and they cannot replace it or starve today by not accepting it.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    38. Re: So now we need warning labels on jobs??? by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      To me it is more important that Mary's child doesn't have to live their entire life in a society that has become violent because the average person doesn't get what they need.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    39. Re:So now we need warning labels on jobs??? by aicrules · · Score: 1

      I agree, I was very lucky to have a roof over my head. It was miserable at times, sleeping in the dining room every night, no privacy, but I never had to sleep in an alley. My senile great grandmother calling out in the night to the birds she saw in the patterns on the wall, but I pretty much always had food.

      However my real point was that I didn't let that keep me down. My two siblings didn't have the same level of drive that I have. They both basically just stopped going to school and while they've had flashes of trying to make a better life, they've fallen back on the easy road every time. My entire point was I wanted better so I did better. I did better and I got better. This poison spewing asshole Jia would want me and my siblings to both get the same reward because society shouldn't reward hard work.

      Lyft is not running an illegal employment scheme. I don't care about what-ifs when we're talking about what is really happening.

    40. Re:So now we need warning labels on jobs??? by aicrules · · Score: 1

      Yes, an actual race to the bottom may eventually drive someone out of business. But that doesn't make competition bad. However, over time, all things race towards the bottom. What was incredibly expensive or even impossible 50 years ago now costs a few pennies to produce. Yes, if you made the expensive version 50 years ago and 25 years later someone figured out how to make it for 10% the cost, you will be hurt by this. Society can't stand still. It is always moving forward. A lot of times that happens at a pace that generally people don't notice when things become obsolete. However, there are also many times especially with technology where it is a dramatic enough change that society takes notice. And sometimes that means people have to adapt quicker than they'd like. Uber and Lyft didn't just shake up the taxi industry, they also created a market for rides where people would NOT have taken a taxi. Now you can find a ride at almost any time of night in places where taxis certainly aren't patroling and many times won't even go. This will eventually make taxi companies rethink their model to compete. Taxi service hasn't had real competition in a long while, and that made some people comfortable that shouldn't have been.

      That doesn't mean that Lyft or Uber couldn't do some really stupid things to try to cut costs to compete, but if I sign up as a driver knowing I'm going to make $10 an hour equivalent and I decide to work 100 hours a week, that's on me. Uber and Lyft existing did not force me into a $10/hour job. But that's clearly what the market will bear. Uber and Lyft don't just compete for customers (riders) they also compete in some areas for drivers. And that is a GREAT thing for drivers. It may help keep wages/prices steady, it may make them go up, it may make them go down. But that's all based on real economics. We as consumers who know what we absolutely need to make to survive must adapt constantly to changing conditions. Sometimes that's easy, sometimes that's hard. Maybe it means finding a new job. Maybe it means working harder at your current job. Exceptionalism isn't comfortable. It means always moving forward. Maybe some day society will achieve a level where for most things there isn't a benefit to making it better or more efficient. I don't see how that will be anytime this century or even millenium, but who knows.

    41. Re:So now we need warning labels on jobs??? by cas2000 · · Score: 1

      He's a Libertarian(*). Libertarians believe that coercion only comes at the point of a gun or other direct violence. They don't see exploiting people by saying "work for fuck all or starve/watch your children starve to death" as being anything even remotely similar to coercion. They believe that it's a "choice", freely entered into. They don't even see it as coercion when it's completely fucking obvious that the conditions enabling that exploitation have been deliberately engineered and maintained.

      that's because they're fucking stupid selfish cunts.

      (*) American-style Libertarianism. The word originally meant socialist, but was stolen by Rand-lovers, anarcho-capitalists ("regulations are evil!!!") and property worshippers suckered into believing that whatever is good for business and corporations is good for freedom, even as they're being driven into slavery by those corporations. Most of them are just deluded losers holding onto the dream that one day they'll be the one holding the whip. The word is tainted now, so non-american libertarians refer to themselves as libertarian socialists or left-libertarians.

  12. Re:All About Putin-Republicans by Archtech · · Score: 1

    http://moscowproject.org/

    to keep up.

    Oh, what a relief! For a moment there I thought Microsoft was going into the dairy business.

    --
    I am sure that there are many other solipsists out there.
  13. What kind of garbage article is this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "At the root of this is the American obsession with self-reliance, which makes it more acceptable to applaud an individual for working himself to death than to argue that an individual working himself to death is evidence of a flawed economic system"

    Really? I seem to recall that BIG companies with HIGHLY regulated economies seem to fare much worse... or have we forgotten about Chinese companies taking advantage of slave labor (hello Apple)

    The US does NOT have a flawed economic system.
    The American obsession with self-reliance is GOOD. It encourages independent thought and, better, it encourages people to fight for their own destinies against corporations and governments and insipidly vapid ideologues (including Jia Tolentino here, who doesn't want liberty or e better economic system but a womb to the tomb babysitter government... like China...)

    Because, and Jia seems to forget this here, people don't have to work for fiverr and, GOSH, can go out and make sixerr which will pay its employees more if they wish. Unlike China or Venezuela.

  14. What's the value add for something like Fiver? by Gilgaron · · Score: 1

    Wouldn't you be better off pestering your Facebook friends selling pyramid scheme essential oils or something?

    1. Re: What's the value add for something like Fiver? by corychristison · · Score: 1

      Fiverr is more of an escrow service than a gig-firm.

      I've used it to hire Graphic Designers when I could not find anyone local.

      It fills a narrow niche, but they've somehow blown it out if proportion.

    2. Re: What's the value add for something like Fiver? by Gilgaron · · Score: 1

      Oh ok, that actually sounds useful. From only being tangentially aware of it, it sounded more like a place to hire some random person to clean your gutter instead of asking the neighbor's kid or whatever.

  15. You might be a sucker by Archtech · · Score: 5, Insightful

    “You eat a coffee for lunch,” the ad proclaims. “You follow through on your follow through. Sleep deprivation is your drug of choice. You might be a doer.”

    I'll see you and raise you this:

    "The busy man is never wise, and the wise man is never busy".
    - Lin Yutang

    --
    I am sure that there are many other solipsists out there.
    1. Re:You might be a sucker by coofercat · · Score: 1

      "You follow through on your follow through"

      Gees, I didn't realise you had to shit yourself twice to qualify.

    2. Re:You might be a sucker by meta-monkey · · Score: 1

      They really needed a "BLANK!? Don't you worry about blank, let me worry about blank!"

      --
      We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
    3. Re:You might be a sucker by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fiverrrrr wants, nay DEMANDS, you shit yourself, eat your shit, and re-shit the shit. Because single-shitting is for LOSERS.

      TBH, part of me wants this to be some elaborate prank. The Onion would blush to post such a cruel and over-the-top parody. But apparently, they're serious.

  16. dude Keep Your Skills Up bro by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Coders always be high paid millionaires in demand! Just keep your skills up bro! Framework of the week is where it's at dude!

  17. And the point is? by Fringe · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The last time that you could get a decent permanent job without solid skills and education was the 70s. But they weren't easy jobs - things like auto plant worker. And many of those jobs vanished in the 80s. Today's WSJ has an article why... basically people got progressively more expensive, while automation got less expensive. The "gig economy" is no different than what people did before about it... Amway or Fuller, or holding Tupperware parties, or starting a lawn care or housecleaning service, or starting your own cab/limo company before cities regulated and medallioned that option off the list. The unfortunate part is that we fall for the sob stories, the anecdotes of emotion, and then close off another rung on the upward-mobility ladder in the name of protecting the people that, as a result, are held down more firmly.

    1. Re:And the point is? by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 1

      then close off another rung on the upward-mobility ladder

      Are you saying Uber, et al are rungs on the ladder? Because they're not. Real rungs on the ladder are things like "education" and "not going into debt forever cause you got sick at 19"

      Or, more precisely, that auto plant worker was really working his way up a ladder. But Uber et al explicitly do not allow for advancement.

      --
      Your ad here. Ask me how!
    2. Re:And the point is? by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 1

      If you want to use the ladder as an analogy, it is much more of a Jacob's Ladder. The relevant question is if it is better or worse than "back then." Don't know the answer personally.

    3. Re:And the point is? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      then close off another rung on the upward-mobility ladder

      Are you saying Uber, et al are rungs on the ladder? Because they're not. Real rungs on the ladder are things like "education" and "not going into debt forever cause you got sick at 19"

      Or, more precisely, that auto plant worker was really working his way up a ladder. But Uber et al explicitly do not allow for advancement.

      How does that work? When you start working for Uber to you waive your right to ever work for another company? I doubt that would stand up in court.

      Put another way: 2 years of full-time work as an Uber driver is much more impressive on a resume than 2 years collecting benefits. That's a rung.

  18. Company Towns, but on the Internet by sinij · · Score: 3, Insightful

    SV is one huge company town right from the last century. The only thing that is missing is Pinkerton thugs cracking skulls.

    This is the logical conclusion of all union-busting that we have done last 25 years. While you might hate unions, the alternative is much worse.

    1. Re:Company Towns, but on the Internet by XxtraLarGe · · Score: 0

      SV is one huge company town right from the last century. The only thing that is missing is Pinkerton thugs cracking skulls.

      This is the logical conclusion of all union-busting that we have done last 25 years. While you might hate unions, the alternative is much worse.

      The lack of Pinkerton thugs cracking skulls seems like a much better alternative to the definite presence union thugs cracking skulls...

      --
      Taking guns away from the 99% gives the 1% 100% of the power.
    2. Re:Company Towns, but on the Internet by sinij · · Score: 2

      Gig economy wasn't invented in SV or even this century. This was how things operated in 1800s until unions formed and forced corporations to treat workers responsibly. Was Unionization entirely positive? Not at all, but it is least bad alternative.

    3. Re:Company Towns, but on the Internet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It would. To someone who's never had their skull cracked, or is so schizoid or depersonalized that you don't care that skulls are being literally cracked by any agent. And no, the reign of corporate enforced ass kickers is far worse than that of the union, because the union can be ultimately accountable to their membership of human workers, who want continued employement and human life. Corporations are accountable to.... a soulless morphization of 'shareholders' and 'directors'.

      The lack of Pinkerton thugs cracking skulls seems like a much better alternative to the definite presence union thugs cracking skulls...

  19. Their cut is unreasonably high by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    My wife considered this when she was having a hard time finding a job. Read the fine print. Fees to list, fees off the gross, fees when you try and send the money to a real bank... You're lucky to keep 70% of what they pay, (which you are fully liable to pay taxes on, so expect your take-home portion to be significantly less), and even then the "customers" all expect highest service levels at the cheapest 3rd-world pay scale.

    Participating in this, Uber, etc. "gig economy" crap is just contributing towards the race to the bottom.

    If the system is broken the only way to beat it is not to play.

  20. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  21. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  22. Fivver isn't advertising to their workers by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    it's doing it to the folks who want to hire their workers for peanuts. From what I can tell it's a platform to connect people to Uber cheap (pun intended) labor overseas. It's actually terrifying. One of the few good sources of jobs left in America is small businesses too tiny to outsource. Fivver might kill those too. If you're a consultant and you're reading this you should be sweating bullets right about now.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
  23. People are starting to notice... by ErichTheRed · · Score: 4, Insightful

    American society has always had the obsession on self-reliance, but I'm glad people are starting to see gig economy jobs for what they are. The question is what we do when the possibilities of realistically supporting yourself evaporate completely, and we go back to a semi-feudal system -- the nobles having all the power and letting the peasants who serve them exist at the bare minimum standard.

    For decades in the US, the formula was simple:
    - If you're smart, go to college and study anything. A large company will hire you at the entry level and take you through to the end of your career
    - If you're semi-skilled, go to trade school, become an apprentice and join a trade union; there will be work until you retire.
    - If you're less skilled, go join a union and work in a factory -- same deal, there will always be work.

    It seems to me like this is gone, and no one noticed until now, or brushed it off. The modern economy is built around steady paychecks -- people can't buy a house for cash, they have to get a mortgage and pay it off as they earn. Same thing for consumer credit...no one is going to go into debt if they feel they can't pay for it, and debt is what drives the economy to some extent.

    Steady paychecks are one of the reasons I've stayed out of the IT contracting world, even though I've been told I'd be excellent at it. It's stressful worrying about your job, or where the money is going to come from, and having to constantly hustle to find new work.

    1. Re:People are starting to notice... by ooloorie · · Score: 0

      The question is what we do when the possibilities of realistically supporting yourself evaporate completely, and we go back to a semi-feudal system -- the nobles having all the power and letting the peasants who serve them exist at the bare minimum standard.

      You mean the kind of economy and society that people like Sanders and Warren want to bring about? Because that's what social democracy, the welfare state, and progressivism lead to: a "semi-feudal system".

    2. Re:People are starting to notice... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You mean the kind of economy and society that people like Sanders and Warren want to bring about? Because that's what social democracy, the welfare state, and progressivism lead to: a "semi-feudal system".

      I love your black and white false dilemma thinking, comrade. You'll fit right in when the socialists take over.

    3. Re:People are starting to notice... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You mean the kind of economy and society that people like Sanders and Warren want to bring about? Because that's what social democracy, the welfare state, and progressivism lead to: a "semi-feudal system".

      Wait.... so having a really huge wealth and income inequality is the opposite of feudalism? A system where an increasingly small percentage of the people own the land is NOT feudalism? Oh, please do explain this to me.

    4. Re:People are starting to notice... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My father once remarked to me that when he was young, there was a big cultural conflict between government, unions, and corporations; and that it's getting really obvious now that the corporations won it.

    5. Re:People are starting to notice... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Steady paychecks are one of the reasons I've stayed out of the IT contracting world, even though I've been told I'd be excellent at it. It's stressful worrying about your job, or where the money is going to come from, and having to constantly hustle to find new work.

      This is a fallacy. As an employee you worry about your job and pleasing your masters, as they are in control of your job - they decide whether you keep it or lose it, and it will effect you enormously. As an independent contractor I work with multiple different clients, enjoy a broad range of work, work when, how much, and where I want.

      After a few years you have enough "fuck you" money in the bank to, well, say "fuck you" to whomever you want which is far more "steady" of an income source then assuming you are going to have a paycheck each week. I never "hustle" to find work, quite the opposite, more work finds me then I could possibly accept.

      Please really consider it. I was told i'd be excellent at it for years much like you, and my only regret is that I did not do it sooner.

    6. Re:People are starting to notice... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      About steady paychecks:
      Had one pal to start his own SW company as instructed by unemployment office. Got burned out pretty badly. Cited reason as constant stress of finding money paying project. Having you own business is not easy way to money.

    7. Re:People are starting to notice... by xession · · Score: 1

      This is a great example of a hyperbolic bullshit comment.

      Don't bother relating anything from the ideals of Sanders to the suggested "semi-feudal system". That would make it too obvious that you know jack shit.

      Progressivism as an ideology is quite populist. Populism is where the majority takes the reigns and says, "no, we're not going to do it that way, we're going to do it our way because it provides the most benefit to us, the majority." Trump is suggested to be a populist because his supporters see him as a dramatic departure from the norm (he isn't), politician to business man. Sanders on the other hand, holds ideals that support pushing for more individual rights and taking away some of the power and authority currently held by the ultra-rich and mega corporations. How in the hell is taking power away from the people that are supposed to become the nobility in this aftermath of feudalism by progressive trends, if the progressive philosophy made them far less powerful?

    8. Re:People are starting to notice... by wyHunter · · Score: 1

      So, in other words, if populist ideas say "Burn all muslims at the stake" "Lock the jews in camps and work 'em to death" this is a good thing, per your definition.

    9. Re:People are starting to notice... by Hognoxious · · Score: 2

      Is there such a thing as a steady paycheck these days? The company could go tits-up tomorrow, or close your department and ship the work to Onlyexistedfortwoyearsistan.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    10. Re:People are starting to notice... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      *reins*, you streetshitting chimp.

    11. Re:People are starting to notice... by xession · · Score: 1
      Haha, you got me. That is quite clearly exactly what I meant! /s

      Populism is not without flaws. Tyranny of the majority is a very serious problem and much has been done to try and quell that problem. However, tyranny of the powerful minority is also a significant problem. The broad scope of things is that there needs to be a balance between the two and right now, the scale is heavily tipped in favor of the powerful minority. For the last couple of decades, the US government has worked to make things better for the powerful minority, leaving the commoner majority the table scrap wedge issues that only serve to show that they did at least one thing beneficial for you.

      That needs to change and balance needs to be restored where the US government is being beneficial to most everyone. In doing so, some harsh realities may be faced by the powerful minority. This will likely include items such as having to pay more taxes which reflects upon how much more they utilize and benefit from the economy and infrastructure of the US. Intentionally ineffective regulations may be replaced with new versions that make it difficult to pollute the environment we all share, or new privacy restrictions that make it illegal for an ISP to retain any of your data or other companies to use your data to profit without proper compensation.

      A hundred years ago, people were regularly exploited and thrown out as trash after they were injured or killed while on the job. Wise people saw this as a problem and sought ways to correct that problem and it brought forward a much more powerful country. People like to say the aftermath of WWII is what brought the US out of the depression. What they forget is that the US was already well on its way, fast tracking out of the depression before it even entered WWII. The laws and regulations passed in the decade before were what made it possible to even consider entering the war in the first place. A struggling country would never have the ability to produce enough supplies for such an event. If you need further proof of this, just look at the countries that fell so easily early in WWII, all struggling countries, trying to deal with the problems caused by the depression.

      Currently, we're on a march back in time against all these policies that were enormously beneficial. It brings to mind the famously wise quote from George Santatana:

      Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

      We are in for hard times if your line of thought is to be the norm.

    12. Re:People are starting to notice... by ooloorie · · Score: 1

      Populism is where the majority takes the reigns and says, "no, we're not going to do it that way, we're going to do it our way because it provides the most benefit to us, the majority."

      In a presidential election, about 60-70 million people vote for the winning candidate out of a population of about 320 million, which is a little more than 20%. That's not a "majority". Those 60-70 million represent a huge diversity of interests and reasons for picking one candidate or another. The idea that "the majority" is a valid concept and represents a group of people with common interests is absolutely ludicrous. The same is true for state and local elections.

      Of course, economically, it may seem like you are part of something like "the majority of the bottom 90%" and that taking money from the top 10% and transferring it to the bottom 90% is a good idea for the bottom 90%. However, that is not only unjust, it also simply doesn't work in the long term. It's also not what other progressive welfare states do: European countries finance their welfare states with much higher taxes on the middle class.

      "The aristocracy" and "feudal lords" weren't bankers and merchants, they were people who were given special privileges by the church and the state and thought themselves intellectually superior and divinely justified. Then, as now, people like you, Warren, and Sanders hated successful businessmen with a passion, often leading directly to antisemitism and pogroms. And you're right that the hatred of successful businessmen, their denunciation as an "aristocracy", and calls for their expropriation are both progressive and populist; when they become more extreme (usually, after progressives and populists like you have destroyed the economy), they turn into pogroms and overt fascism.

      Hayek makes the economic case for why people like you are worshipers and enablers of feudalism in his book "The Road to Serfdom". I suggest you read it.

    13. Re:People are starting to notice... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thanks for that ideological material. This goes a way to explain why the media props the extreme right up in France (which even the centre-left government did, for political maneuvering reasons). Or the idea we're on a cylindral political chessboard where the left-wing and the extreme right are connected, which is rather bunk actually.

      This insinuation that normal people, the bottom 90%, who want to organize and fend for themselves are violent, reprehensible or ultimately neo-nazis is some garbage insidiously spouted by French journalists (who now are opinion journalists rather than journalists, even on TV. Wasn't like that or that blatant in the 90s). That turn of events is in part accidental as the collapse of newspapers is in a great part due to technology but obviously, that result in extreme concentration at the hands of few billionaires and so they can insinuate such garbage ideas you so eloquently demonstrated.. That the populace is foam-at-the-mouth violent idiots, even ready to kill the Jewish bankers with machetes or whatever it is you're making up.

      If welfare is financed by the middle class it's maybe for good reason. What do you think social security is? Doesn't that exist in the US? Although in France, we use that term to refer to health care. I don't know how you pay for you social security (which you think of as a thing for the elderly) but here it's deduced on payroll (goes to an entity nominally independent from the state). I.e. every worker pays for it and every worker can go to the doctor etc. (and also those who don't work, because um they need it)
      As the rich either have more income from capital than from work they do pay quite some but don't pay quite huge of an amount as you note.

      Although, France's official presidential candidate (a millionaire banker that styles himself as both left and right) wants to abolish that and have healthcare/welfare paid by taxes instead of labor while telling us we'll have more of a paycheck for ourself. Like, I'm smelling something there. Maybe just make us believe welfare is a gift from the state, so then they can rile up against it, claim the debt will kill us then fuck us over while forcing us to sign up with private companies.

      See?
      "Aristocracy" and "feudal" are maybe not the right word, on the other hand I don't think billionaires existed in the 18th century, or if they did exist there's 1000x more of them now. They do exist now and they'll fuck over the middle class (I don't know, the 2% to 40% or the 3% to 60%?) in addition to the lower middle class and poor.

      Isn't Sander a Jew? Your scare about Jews is nauseous. I'm sick of that cry-wolf thing about Jews, besides, only Muslims hate them anymore and I wish they didn't fall into that antisemitism trap (especially as they're a Jewish sect anyway). Likewise the state of Israel should just be ignored, bunch of cry me a river idiots who believe their own propaganda. Was George W. Bush a Jew? explicitly not. Should we kill Jews? Not, if only because I would find that useless.

    14. Re:People are starting to notice... by raind · · Score: 1

      +1 even for a AC post.

      --
      Get up!
  24. Re:Good for us old farts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    So, to summarize what you said: "FUCK YOU! GOT MINE!"

    Die now, old asshole.

  25. Maybe she would work less hard by DeplorableCodeMonkey · · Score: 1

    If more of the same people who are decrying a pregnant woman burning the candle at both ends for Uber would back Trump on crippling the ability of employers to profit heavily from international labor arbitrage, among other things. But we can't do that, that would violate someone's rights and make it harder for a SF Bay Area entrepreneur to outsource some work to China.

  26. Re:All About Putin-Republicans by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Actually, it is

    https://themoscowproject.org/

    anyone else notice this (the expired date was yesterday, and it is gone today):

    broadbandreports.com

    Checking server [whois.easydns.com]
    Results:
    Domain Name: BROADBANDREPORTS.COM
    Domain ID: 23073813_DOMAIN_COM-VRSN
    Registrar WHOIS Server: whois.easydns.com

    Updated Date: 2016-03-18T03:23:51Z
    Creation Date: 2000-03-22T16:38:14Z
    Registrar Registration Expiration Date: 2017-03-22T15:38:14Z

  27. It's a race to the bottom. by Bender+Unit+22 · · Score: 1

    Going off-grid an living in middle of nowhere sounds better every day. Of course that is not a effective and sustainable solution that can accomodate everone. :D

    Just working hard and long is not the road to a great life if you are working on the wrong thing. Lyft, Uber, Fiverr etc. are among those. Working hard at creating those companies might have been.

  28. Unions are the answer. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    People hate on unions, then wonder why they are treated like crap by employers.

    1. Re: Unions are the answer. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unions treat their members like crap, siphoning off the Union dues to pay off politicians. Then they wonder why people hate unions.

    2. Re:Unions are the answer. by Dread_ed · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Unions have their own problems.

      Union boss: HEY! Company boss guy! You cant keep fucking your employees over!

      CEO: Why? They seem to like it.

      Union boss: Well its our turn to fuck them for a while. They have more than one hole. Just give us first dibs and you can occupy the other.

      CEO: So I get to watch you fuck them while I fuck them too? Sounds like a win-win scenario for everyone!

      Union boss: Great, glad that is settled. See you in Ibiza this summer?

      CEO: No, I'll be at my place in the Hampton's this year. Want to join me?

      Union boss: I would but my home there is being renovated. For 12 million you would think you wouldn't have to put in a tennis court and redo the entire master suite.

      --
      When the only tool you have is a claw hammer every problem starts to look like the back of someone's skull.
    3. Re:Unions are the answer. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unions are great for making sure you paid what you should be and you have security in your career. This is great for many people.
      However they foster the "drone" worker-bee mentality and some people just simply cannot survive in that environment. Nor do they really encourage you to better yourself or re-enforce an entrepreneur mindset.
      And you have to consider that every union worker is employed by someone who generally wouldn't be welcome in a union. Somebody has to create and build a company that can actually hire the unionized employees -and the attitude and outlook on life required to do that is suppressed in the union environment.
      As I look back on my life there's a part of me that maybe would have preferred going down that road, but now as I compare my entreprenuerial experiences to high-school friends that joined the UAW, I would rather die homeless than live their boring lives.

    4. Re:Unions are the answer. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People hate on unions, then wonder why they are treated like crap by employers.

      Because getting treated like crap by both the union and the employer is a better deal? No thanks.

    5. Re:Unions are the answer. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nearly every job that was outsourced in the 80's was a union job. The unions didn't stop anything. In fact, by refusing to bargain when cheaper options were available, the unions allowed good paying jobs that might have survived with a small pay cut to become outsourced jobs that paid the union workers nothing. Unions only work when there is something to be leveraged by collective bargaining. When unions began, local labor was the only option for most factories, mines, etc., so unions were able to leverage that natural resource monopoly to bring about some benefits. However, unions bring with them a good bit of overhead (which is why they are often hated). When the overhead does not outweigh the benefits they offer, then unions are an obstacle, not a boon.

  29. Exploiting old fashioned values by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You know those values...no. You really do know them.

    Work hard, contribute, remain positive, be cheerful about you 70 hour work week.

    This works with people. You do your friend a solid and he always remembers. (or at least does his or her best.)

    Corporate psychology teaches us that we need to build a "culture" so people stop thinking about the job being a job and more of a community or even family.

    You are not an employee you are a "googler" or a "tweet" or "microsofties"

    The companies that do it well know and care about a work/life balance because it costs more money to lose great employees and hire replacements that to factor in they need time to live.

    But most companies want to put your performance figures on a large whiteboard with other names so everyone can see who sucks and the rest try to workaholic each other out in a fight to get their head above the shit line.

    Don't you dare be sick. Don't you dare question. Don't you dare be disruptive with your communication. Do your job, do it well, do it often, work through your sickness, work through your children's plays, get shit pay for it, smile at work and say thank you. -don't forget to be extra nice to the boss, because they are the boss.

      There's always one more email, one more urgent deadline, one more customer meeting, one more critical submission...and if that's the case, hire more people. Don't be that dumb ass that goes above and beyond every single time. You think you;re making yourself valuable or saving your job but really you;re just ruining your life and keeping employers to their exploitative practices.

    I propose a new strategy; Work by the letter of your contract from day 1. If you do extra that becomes special. If you;re fired because of it you know that place was not for you.

    True, a lot of people work shit jobs for lack of options but believe it, there's always a slightly better option. A shit sandwich isnt always better than nothing.

    When you finally find that place that appreciates you and actually tried to meet you halfway or goes out of their way for you -count your lucky stars and remember how you got there.

  30. Oh, fuck you. by operagost · · Score: 2

    "Self-reliance" does not mean working yourself to death for peanuts. Oh, are we going to have the government step in, because you're too stupid to keep a reasonable work/life balance and negotiate fair compensation? Ultimately, you're going to want to progress from the tier of self-employment to owning your own business, because in the long term owning your own job means having no paid vacation or sick days. But self-employment is often the next step on getting out of the employment scam. You know the one: the claim that if you can just get a college degree, you'll get a safe, secure job and work until your comfortable retirement. Millennials, if anyone, should know this is hasn't been true for their entire lifetime. And government isn't going to get one for you, either.

    --

    Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    1. Re:Oh, fuck you. by fluffernutter · · Score: 2

      Self reliance PRESUMES that there are opportunities to explore that you may rely upon.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    2. Re:Oh, fuck you. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Self-reliance" does not mean working yourself to death for peanuts. Oh, are we going to have the government step in, because you're too stupid to keep a reasonable work/life balance and negotiate fair compensation? Ultimately, you're going to want to progress from the tier of self-employment to owning your own business, because in the long term owning your own job means having no paid vacation or sick days. But self-employment is often the next step on getting out of the employment scam. You know the one: the claim that if you can just get a college degree, you'll get a safe, secure job and work until your comfortable retirement. Millennials, if anyone, should know this is hasn't been true for their entire lifetime. And government isn't going to get one for you, either.

      Oh, I thought "self-reliance" means you have to grow and hunt your own food, chop your own firewood, build your own house, make make your own crossbows.
      Because as soon as you delegate any of these functions to someone else, then you're not reliant solely on yourself.

    3. Re:Oh, fuck you. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, are we going to have the government step in, because you're too stupid to keep a reasonable work/life balance and negotiate fair compensation?

      It's not that I'm too stupid to keep work/life balance and negotiate compensation. It's that I'm going to be undercut by the fuckwit who is too stupid.
      Too many fuckwits like that, and the market value drops. So then my demands for balance and compensation, while actually reasonable, get laughed out of the room because there's a mile-long line of would-be serfs waiting to work twice as long for half the pay. In very short order, my choices become join them to at least get something, or have nothing.

      So yes, we need government intervention. Because without it, morons will bargain away their very lives, and then the rest of us will be expected to follow suit.

    4. Re:Oh, fuck you. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So self-reliance presumes reliance on something/someone else? That's special snowflake logic.

      No, Self-reliance presumes that if your reliance on those opportunities doesn't pan out, that you'll seek out OTHER opportunities. If I lose my job, I'm darn well going to go look for another job. it's the safest bet. And the self-reliance part of my psyche says that if that doesn't pan out, I'm going to start my own company and sell my skills to those who need them. And if that doesn't pan out, then i'm going to evaluate whether i can keep my nice things. Assuming I can't I'll own up to that fact and right-size my life to fit my resources. The world doesn't owe me my nice things. I like them, derive enjoyment from some of them, but none are necessary to my existence. I need shelter, food to exist. I need human contact, entertainment and sex to live. I'm aware of resource for the first two that I already pay into, for or support otherwise. I don't want to exercise that option, but if necessary I will. Because I want some comforts, I hope to be able to help other people execute their jobs in a way to provide value and thus promote the economy in that fashion. THAT's the heart of self-reliance, understanding the ways in which I can help others create or sustain value.

      Please stop expecting cell phones, televisions, clothing and status as a prerequisite of being treated 'decently' If you want them, find a way, even if that means helping others get those things that you cannot afford yourself.

    5. Re:Oh, fuck you. by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      Do you not read the comments on here about people looking for jobs for months and not finding them? Holy fuck.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
  31. "little" is better than "zero" by ooloorie · · Score: 1

    Yeah, they may "pay them little". But if the people taking these jobs had higher paying alternatives, they would be taking them. So, "paying them little" is better than getting no money at all.

    1. Re:"little" is better than "zero" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      True. You can always squirrel away a little money and, when you've got enough saved, invest some of it in a torch or two and a pitchfork.

  32. White people problems by Tailhook · · Score: 1

    I'll offer the same advice to the gigsters that is (heretofore exclusively) provided to the poor white slobs of WV et al; move to where the good jobs are learn the new skills and also stop being ignorant. It's your own fault because you make bad decisions.

    There. All fixed. Enjoy.

    --
    Maw! Fire up the karma burner!
  33. Starting a business does NOT require debt by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There is a kind of investment known as "equity", you know. Put the risk on your investors.

    1. Re:Starting a business does NOT require debt by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      And you don't think they need to be paid back at some point?

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
  34. Your are just agreeing with OP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How can you not see that you are agreeing?

    1. Re:Your are just agreeing with OP by TWX · · Score: 1

      How can you not see that you are agreeing?

      How is, "When you don't owe anybody anything, it's amazing how rich you really are; having 'fuck you' money is really just being debt free," agreeing?

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
  35. Nothing to do with self-reliance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You're barking up the wrong tree. It's got nothing to do with philosophy (i.e. self-reliance), and everything to do with mindless lemming culture. The people working themselves to death obviously aren't doing it to become self-reliant. If that were the case, then they'd be saving 75% of their income instead of spending 100% of it (usually more). But they're not saving it -- they're putting themselves in debt to buy 400-horsepower diesel trucks which they use for grocery shopping. They're working themselves to death in order to create an impression, not to better their own lives.

  36. Fiver and Foreign Aid by The+Raven · · Score: 2

    Tools like Fiverr, Mechanical Turk, etc are an amazing way to create positive trade with low-income nations. They get a living wage, we get cheap labor, everyone wins.

    They are an abysmal way to run a sustainable first-world economy, due to all the problems listed in the many comments above.

    But don't let the shittiness of a gig economy in the US, EU, and other prosperous areas overshadow the value they have in allowing poor areas of the world an instant economic advantage. The Internet has allowed us a way to provide aid without creating beggers, to create a cash flow where value is moving in the both directions, and to allow for economic success in developing nations without sweatshops and mines, without employers siphoning off most of the wealth, or warlords stealing the crops.

    Five dollars for an hour of work is shitty here, but when five dollars can be a days wage (or a weeks) in many places it's amazing. If they can get Internet access (and that's a big if...) then it opens up a huge economic opportunity for many of the poorest nations. This kind of opportunity is why Google projects to get the Internet out to rural Africa, India, and South America are so vital.

    So yes, it sucks for us here. It should be fought. But the idea itself has merit, it's just where it's being applied that is inappropriate.

    --
    "I will trust Google to 'do no evil' until the founders no longer run it." Hello Alphabet.
  37. Welcome to entrepreneurs by holophrastic · · Score: 2

    I've been one for three decades now. Self-employed is, and always has been, a recipe for way more work. The benefit, of course, is way more control; you're expected to translate that control into less work over time -- either by shifting the type of work, or by proceduralizing the efforts involved.

    A gig, as is being discussed, doesn't provide any control benefits. A lyft driver can't outsource the driving, can't build the better car, and can't make better routes. Similarly, most of the other gigs are already fully proceduralized, and hence are already so commodity-based, that there is no legitimate benefits for improvement. This results in the up-front huge efforts similar to any self-employment, but without any opportunity to reap the benefits of that extra work.

    Secondly, and this is probably the bigger deal, most of these gig-workers aren't entrepreneurs. Instead, they are would-be-factory-workers, lured by more-and-flexible hours, unable to see what they've lost as a result. Typical wage-earners usually work full weeks, for reasonable pay, with reasonable hours and reasonable benefits, but dream of "more hours" and "more flexibility". These gigs offer both of those, but don't translate into "more money".

    But that's always been the farce of "the american dream". You can come to america, and you have every opportunity to make-it-big. You can be the next mcjagger. Of course, so can everyone else, so you aren't at all likely to be. What percentage of garage-bands become the rolling stones? You're much more likely to fizzle -- on the order of a 100 to 1. Think about it. 300 million americans, 1% make it big, 297 million don't -- and 200 million don't even come close, with 100 million failing miserably.

    1. Re:Welcome to entrepreneurs by kamapuaa · · Score: 1

      You imagine a false disparity - there's either being in the top 1%, or failing miserably. The top 1% of US salary is $428,713. I am very happy living off of less money than that - I would even say I wouldn't know what to do with that much. You can earn much less than that and still have kids go to top schools, have regular vacations, retire comfortably, live a luxurious lifestyle.

      --
      Slashdot: providing anti-social weirdos a soapbox, since 1997.
    2. Re:Welcome to entrepreneurs by holophrastic · · Score: 1

      ...not working for uber you can't. my argument is that there is less and less of that comfortable middle-ground in gig-jobs. that's my argument. it's blue-collar shift work, without the reliable hours and without the benefits.

  38. You've just exposed your ignorance. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. "Equity". Look it up.

    1. Re:You've just exposed your ignorance. by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      What equity do most impoverished people have??

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
  39. Poor reading comprehension, much? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    OP clearly framed his entire comment with "The real key is not to get paid more for your job, but to reduce your debt."

    The OP also says "Unless you have a plan to make it profitable, don't go to university; don't buy that new car; don't purchase things on credit. Keep debts away..."

    I mean, FUCK. How can you not see it?!

  40. Re:Good for us old farts by Opportunist · · Score: 2

    Pay peanuts, get code monkeys.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  41. The article is not what you think by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Seems Mary's story is about shitty doctors or clueless parents. Either the doctor did not tell her or learned nothing about being pregnant understand that a due date is just a guesstimate. A good doctor will tell you anytime within 4 weeks of the due date is considered "full term" and the baby can arrive at any time up to the date and 1 - 2 weeks past (before an induction). Nothing was mentioned about her being a down on her luck person that was forced to scrape every penny to survive, I'll lean toward clueless parent with the author chasing a convenient narrative to fit a story.

  42. Haha the mob rises up by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...and gets shot down by drones while 1% hide in bunkers for years until it's over

  43. You are just agreeing with OP! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Seriously. What is wrong with you people?

    You are just agreeing with OP.

  44. You are utterly wrong in every possible way by SuperKendall · · Score: 2

    It's a choice between community and individuals.

    With one statement, you show yourself the fool, utterly lacking in understanding of what individualism is about, or the power of what it can do - not for a person, but for the COMMUNITY.

    Individualism is not "I got mine". At the heart it is, if possible do not be a burden to others, because you have taken care of yourself as best you can. If you are personally in good shape then it makes it far easier to help others.

    Your philosophy is the truest form of selfishness because it encourages members to leech off others with no return. Individualism is the simple common sense of "put your oxygen mask on before assisting others". Is that wrong?

    Individualism is making sure that AS MANY members of the community are in a position to help others as possible, so that when the need arises people can get help instead of everyone assuming "the community" is helping someone while they freeze to death in a ditch.

    Individualism is about looking out for other individuals, because a little assistance early heads off major and possibly impossible assistance later.

    Americans have to get over their fear of socialism

    Yeah, no reason to be afraid of a philosophy that has killed hundreds of millions, sometimes brutally and sometimes through sheer indifference.

    Go visit Cuba or some former communist nations to see just how much communism should not be feared.

    P.S. What is the deal with you communists forcing Trump into office? What did you think you'd get out of that anyway?

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    1. Re:You are utterly wrong in every possible way by Baron_Yam · · Score: 1

      >With one statement, you show yourself the fool,

      You wasted a lot more time showing everyone you're an idiot, so I guess you win.

    2. Re:You are utterly wrong in every possible way by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

      I guess you win.

      Glad you could get to the point where you are half-right.

      --
      "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    3. Re: You are utterly wrong in every possible way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      With one statement, you show yourself the fool, utterly lacking in understanding of what individualism is about, or the power of what it can do - not for a person, but for the COMMUNITY.

      With this one statement, you are already admitting that the premise is correct, that the individual is a threat when they act selfish , rather than serve the whole.

      Notice how you have to go out of your way to downplay the true character of the Individualists. You have to pretend they are other than they are.

      Can't even hold together long enough to claim your own virtues.

      Individualism is not "I got mine". At the heart it is, if possible do not be a burden to others, because you have taken care of yourself as best you can.

      Nope, it is about keeping others from being a burden into you, but doing into them as to make them carry your burdens. Check out the behavior of the Individualists, they are leeches, parasites and vampires.

      It is about taking care of number one, first, last, and only.

      Individualism is the simple common sense of "put your oxygen mask on before assisting others". Is that wrong?

      Yes, you are wrong, as Individualism is actually make sure you take others oxygen so you have it, not them.

      Individualism is making sure that AS MANY members of the community are in a position to help others as possible, so that when the need arises people can get help instead of everyone assuming "the community" is helping someone while they freeze to death in a ditch.

      Nope, Individualism is about taking what you want from others, and if they freeze in a ditch, the only problem is taking their stuff before anybody else.

      In fact, the weaker and more divided those around you are, the better.

      Individualism is about looking out for other individuals, because a little assistance early heads off major and possibly impossible assistance later.

      Nope, Individualism is about looking out for number one, and giving nobody a helping hand, no compassion, no support, but making sure you take what you want. In fact, break them sooner so they aren't a threat.

      Yeah, no reason to be afraid of a philosophy that has killed hundreds of millions, sometimes brutally and sometimes through sheer indifference.

      Individuals did that, selfish individualists who relied on themselves, took power, and did their best to keep others in line. Individualists lie, after all, that is their stock in trade.

      Go visit Cuba or some former communist nations to see just how much communism should not be feared.

      Cuba can give you a two to one on Individualism, three if you work it. You can get American and Spanish colonialism!

      P.S. What is the deal with you communists forcing Trump into office? What did you think you'd get out of that anyway?

      You're confused, the Russians have gone full authoritarian reactionary now. If any of the Tsar's popularity remained, I don't doubt Putin wold be using that.

      He is an Individualist to the core. Notice his cult of personality. Teddy Roosevelt is jealous.

    4. Re:You are utterly wrong in every possible way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Have you been to Cuba? No? STFU.

  45. Argentina & Greece [Re:The American obsession by Tablizer · · Score: 1

    Just sit an watch Argentina, Greece

    Argentina got in trouble larger for relying on a single product: oil. This mistake can happen in capitalism also, as the Irish potato famine showed. If anything, Adam Smith's "comparative advantage" encourages one to put too many eggs in one basket.

    Greece got in trouble for overspending on lots of different things, including the Olympics. Politicians both left and right over-spend. Bush and Reagan were yuuuge spenders (and during non-slumps). I believe our military is too bloated, yet GOP wants to bloat it more.

    I'm for a balanced budget amendment as long as it allows for stimuluses during slumps or emergencies. But that's nothing to do with capitalism versus socialism.

  46. I know guys that prefer Uber by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    because the really, really, really hate being told what to do by a boss. The one I know lives in a dilapidated trailer without a roof (seriously, he couldn't afford to fix it so he put a tarp over it) in the middle of nowhere. Their hatred of bosses borders on mental illness and they trade just about everything else in life to avoid it. Most of them had/have failed businesses. There's enough of them you can make good money taking advantage of them. Sorta like how we've got all those scams targeting old people with failing mental facilities. For a brief period of time after 1940 society was actively trying to protect folks like that. Didn't take much to get us to turn on them...

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
  47. How Much Can They Really Make? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How much can these people really expect to make in these "gigs". I've seen the dramatically hyperbolic "success" stories of Uber drivers making "fortunes", but let's be real.

    What's the realistic average for an Uber/Lyft driver?

    Fiverr? Who is that stupid?

    1. Re:How Much Can They Really Make? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Real word average is $9-12 per hour. After service fees and operating costs like gas, insurance wear and tear. One should also count also count smartphone costs, which would further reduce net earnings, but they never do.

  48. What?! That's entirely irrelevant! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What is wrong with your brain?

  49. Cable co's / fedex / others have miss 1099's by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    Cable co's / fedex / others have misclassified 1099's for years before this gig work thing really got started. The thing is that the places like home joy and others want the control of a W2 but not the cost of them and hell with a 1099 we can even make money by forcing them to buy there tools and other stuff from us!

  50. Playing fast and loose with opinions vs facts ... by micahraleigh · · Score: 1

    Is a good indicator some shenanigans are going on.

    So tell me what you really think ...

  51. Need more gigs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I feel I never have enough gigs. I need more gigs and better paying gigs. I will never be a user of fiverr, because it doesn't align with my financial goals.

  52. This Is Lazy And Wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I've been hearing lazy political thinking on this point for, well, forever.

    "Europe is coming apart at the seams! Socialism ruins everything and must be repudiated in all forms and down to the smallest molecule! America is the only salvation!"

    Get with the program. Europe is one of the best places in the world to live. They even managed to solve the centuries-old factionalist thinking that led to war, over and over. The problems Europe faces today are neither more nor less important that the problems America faces. Those problems have (in general) little to do with Socialism and nothing to do with Communism. Yet lazy Americans like to claim, OMG, Marine Le Pen, she exists because of Socialism!!!

    America continually dismisses Europe and thereby misses the point, endlessly. It's merely a part of a larger American blind spot. America is Great, The Best, Wonderful, Exceptional. No one else matters, needs to be paid any mind, or has accomplished anything of note. Even if they did, those accomplishments happened in ancient history and are irrelevant today. Now let's return to our Reality TV.

    It's not that America is not great because it is. However Europe is great too and yet lazy political thinking keeps suggesting that Europe has nothing, is nothing, and will be in ruins "any day now". Because Socialism!

    1. Re: This Is Lazy And Wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, the problem is every European with any determination to succeed came to America a LONG time ago. That shits hereditary and youve been breeding your worst for 300 years while America only has for about the last 70.

  53. Re:Obsession with "self reliance"? Since when? by RightSaidFred99 · · Score: 2

    It's so absurd. If you look at 10k years ago humans probably had an 18 hour a day, 365 days a year "workday" just to survive. 200 years ago, the average person probably needed to work 90 hours a week to have a lifestyle equivalent to a lower (but not lowest) class Indian or Chinese person.

    And now people bitch and whine and moan because people who live like kings relative to most of humanity's history have to get by with only enough income to eat, have shelter, and have modern conveniences and entertainment. Oh, the fucking humanity.

    The worst are the "but muh wage slaves!!!" people and the "work life balance!" assholes. Oh noes, you have to work in order to get other people to work for you (which is all money really is, a proxy for other people's labor)?!?!! Poor fucking babies.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we should have anarchy and poor farms and shit like that. I believe in a reasonable welfare state, but jesus christ enough whining about needing to work to live like a king vs. merely a lucky American.

  54. found the Stalinist/Marxist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Found the Stalinist/communist.

  55. Greetings Comrade by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Dear Comrade,

    in the utopia that is our communism we have eradicated the evil that is choice-ism. Therefore everyone here has :

    1. Shit sandwich

    Enjoy, or else.

  56. Re:Obsession with "self reliance"? Since when? by wyHunter · · Score: 1

    Actually, pre-agriculture, they didn't. Of course, they likely died of disease at a relatively young age.

  57. I'm just gonna go and leave this by rsilvergun · · Score: 1
    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
  58. Adam Smith noticed everything your talking about by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    and declared it pretty much inevitable. Hell, by today's standard's he'd be a bomb-throwing leftist.

    You're living in a dream world if you think you'll ever see the world of small communities you're talking about. You can't have it because the ruling class doesn't want it. You have to bend or break the ruling class to your whim with the shear weight of numbers that is the working class. That's what the laws, regulation and wealth redistribution of socialism does. You have to be equally careful that the powerful apperatus you built to do that doesn't get turned against you.

    Government is a tool. A powerful, and dangerous tool. Like fire, guns, electricity or any of our other major discoveries you don't just give up on it because it's dangerous. You can't. If you leave a tool like that lying around unattended somebody else is gonna pick you up and brain ya with it.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
  59. Re:Obsession with "self reliance"? Since when? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Actually, disease might be a lesser issue.

    First, many diseases originate from animals, including cattle and swine. This is why the Native Americans couldn't handle the diseases Europeans brought over. Obviously, there was less contact with animals before agriculture.

    Second, pre-agriculture humans were less stationary. Had to move around to hunt/gather. This meant humans had more exercise and thus healthier, plus they didn't stay in one place for long for germs to fester and grow.

    Third, smaller population. Agriculture is great because it produced a lot of food to support a larger population. The flip side of large population means diseases can spread easier.

  60. The same could be said of a government. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A government tries to conflate itself with a society—with a culture: Ask not what your country (read: government) can do for you, but what you can do for your country (read: government).

    How about we start getting contracts for our relationship with the government, so that we, too, have a binding agreement that can be followed; I think people would quickly realize this fact: There is no such thing as a social contract; there is only a social dictate.

  61. How many people are actually dying? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I want to know what percentage of Fiverr's workforce are actually dying?
    Given the jobs I've seen - this could be people who have a passion about something - and offer these services on the side, while maintaining a 'day job' that really pays the bills. They might have been doing this for nothing before because they love it - and now they can recoup some costs/ make some 'mad money' along the way.

    We need more information to be able to understand if the article is realistic or hyperbole.

  62. Americans are white people by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    White men hate men marrying female children because that gives advantage to men.

    White men are retarded.

    What do you expect from them?

    They just want to sacrifice for their master. Born serfs.

  63. Yes! This is the problem with America by mattwarden · · Score: 1

    This article is spot on. I have long said the country is great except for one major flaw: TOO MUCH WORK ETHIC! And this new generation has just gotten so much work. I try to tell these millennials there is more to life than work work work. But they don't listen! All they want to do is select the most profitable college major and work 120+ hour weeks in an office until they die. This massive work ethic is really making the rest of us look terrible, not to mention drastically increasing the effective labor supply, this depressing wages.

    So, millennials, I know all you want to do is work harder than your parents ever did, but take a breather, would ya?! I need to catch up to you.

  64. A contract takes two parties by thsths · · Score: 1

    And while there is plenty of blame for "the system", I would not say that the people are much better. It is a mixture of envy, hubris and a greed that makes the gig economy so attractive to many people: they think that professionals just rake in the money (uber driver trying to be a rich cabby), they overestimate themselves and their business skills, and they fail to account for the operating expenses and costs of providing a service.

    In the past, you often have to satisfy a certain standard to run a business or provide services, and that standard would require formal teaching in your subject area and in business. Now we have "deregulated" the market, and everybody can do everything, including working themselves into the ground. It turns out that "the freedom to work yourself into the ground" is not that great after all. As I said, hubris is part of it.

  65. Preying on the unsophisticated by FreedomFirstThenPeac · · Score: 1
    While it is convenient to call things like Uber vultures on the gig-economy, eating the guts of the still-living victims of the modern economy as they lie bleeding their lives out into the street, in fact, we were warned of this back in the day, when Unions told us that the employees were too stupid or too naive to manage their own negotiations with the capitalists. The paternalistic state need not be the political state.

    That said, as is usually the case, there is some truth in the hyperbole. In particular, the gig-economy presumes that people are actually fiscally self-aware enough to understand that making a living means selling your time, and if you don't want to have to sell your time till the day you have no time left to sell (as in, you are dead), you'd better be banking some income today so you can become a capitalist tomorrow (where a capitalist sells the time and values of assets they own, their capital, aka, "retired" from the simple business of selling time).

    So, the gig-economy assumes people are fiscally self-aware, but experience suggests that many people grossly underestimate the costs of maintenance, operating costs, etc as they drive their assets around town trying to make money for today, but not necessarily making money for the future.

    --
    "There is no god but allah" - well, they got it half right.
  66. Sounds like ... by cwsumner · · Score: 1

    Sounds like it was written by a communist who hates all free enterprise! 8-P

    No one wants to work themselves to death. But if someone wanted to, do you have a right to force them not to? That way truly lies slavery!

    Save other people if they give you their permission, but don't take away their right to refuse.

    Government regulation of large companies is necessary, as a balance of their power (in both directions). But regulation of people's life choices is extreamly dangerous.

    Sometimes you don't have the right to "fix things". ;-)

  67. In the worst of all possible worlds by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "At the root of this is the American obsession with self-reliance, which makes it more acceptable to applaud an individual for working himself to death than to argue that an individual working himself to death is evidence of a flawed economic system. "

    Well, yes, but even more to the point is that these people AREN'T working for themselves. We have a family landscaping and gardening business, and we work ALL the time. But we aren't doing the work to make someone else rich. The gig economy is truly the worst of both worlds.