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America's 'Retail Apocalypse' Is Really Just Beginning (bloomberg.com)

An anonymous reader quotes a report from Bloomberg: The so-called retail apocalypse has become so ingrained in the U.S. that it now has the distinction of its own Wikipedia entry. The industry's response to that kind of doomsday description has included blaming the media for hyping the troubles of a few well-known chains as proof of a systemic meltdown. There is some truth to that. In the U.S., retailers announced more than 3,000 store openings in the first three quarters of this year. But chains also said 6,800 would close. And this comes when there's sky-high consumer confidence, unemployment is historically low and the U.S. economy keeps growing. Those are normally all ingredients for a retail boom, yet more chains are filing for bankruptcy and rated distressed than during the financial crisis. That's caused an increase in the number of delinquent loan payments by malls and shopping centers. The reason isn't as simple as Amazon.com Inc. taking market share or twenty-somethings spending more on experiences than things. The root cause is that many of these long-standing chains are overloaded with debt -- often from leveraged buyouts led by private equity firms. There are billions in borrowings on the balance sheets of troubled retailers, and sustaining that load is only going to become harder -- even for healthy chains. The debt coming due, along with America's over-stored suburbs and the continued gains of online shopping, has all the makings of a disaster. The spillover will likely flow far and wide across the U.S. economy. There will be displaced low-income workers, shrinking local tax bases and investor losses on stocks, bonds and real estate. If today is considered a retail apocalypse, then what's coming next could truly be scary.

398 comments

  1. And what of the FOUR horseman? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Where are they? Hm?

    1. Re:And what of the FOUR horseman? by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      Amazon.com?

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    2. Re:And what of the FOUR horseman? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      Retail itself, traditional retail anyway, is one of its own four horsemen. It can't get out of its own way because the people who run it aren't capable of thinking in a way that will save them from what is happening.

      I found something I needed and what seemed like the only reasonable way to get it was via Walmart's order-online-pick-up-in-store system. So I ordered and 5 days later I get an email saying it was ready to pick up. Slow, but not a deal breaker. The email directed me to 'follow the orange signs to the pick up area'.

      So I drive to the store and see orange signs and follow them. I come to a parking lot where signs directed me to call a number and someone would be out. It turns out that that area was for online ordered groceries only, and the person on the phone had no idea where to pick up non-grocery items.

      I decided a graphic in the email was a map to some location inside the store, so I park and go in and awesome there is an area with an orange sign, a few ragged chairs, and a kiosk. Something about scanning a QR code but the scanner didn't work, and instead I typed my order number into the kiosk. My name appeared in a queue on the screen and the screen assured me someone would be along.

      After 5 minutes or so a typically disinterested retail employee came out with a single box that weight about 1 LB and asked me to sign.
      Me: This can't be it, my order is probably in several boxes and weighs about 300 LB
      Her: No
      Me: Yes look at the confirmation on my phone
      Her: I will go look in the back

      15 minutes later she appears with a cart with several boxes. I glance through them, one is missing. She says she can call corporate Walmart tomorrow and see if they can find it but she is sure without a second pass through the back she didn't miss it. I realize she just wants me to leave so she can go on break, and I really need this stuff now, so I sign anyway.

      On the way home while sitting at a stoplight I order the missing part using my Amazon app and someone drops it on my porch the next day.

      I wrote all that to say that the level of thinking that designed the Walmart process cannot compete with Amazon. It can't, it has 0 chance. It might keep obliteration at bay for a few years, but it will lose eventually. The only way traditional retail could compete would be to hire all new people, burn down all their stores, and start over. It can't win on convenience, it can't win on speed, it can't win on experience. It is a monoculture of price reduction and now that an alternative has appeared that can beat it in that area, it can't change quickly enough to survive.

    3. Re:And what of the FOUR horseman? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

      Yes, truly evil the likes of which gases their own citizens. Let me know when the gas chambers are operational comrad.

    4. Re:And what of the FOUR horseman? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      mmm your tears are so yummy

    5. Re:And what of the FOUR horseman? by knightghost · · Score: 1

      Sounds like you're giving up after the first attempt.

      I look at prices across the board and occasionally buy from Wally's World when there is a significant gain - especially when it is a heavy item with high shipping costs for home delivery. I go when I'm buying other specific things there, usually once a month, and picking up additional items takes all of 5 minutes.

      You're correct on the quality of employee though. Keep things simple and don't ask for any changes. Open the order there and refuse and cancel the order if everything isn't perfect.

    6. Re:And what of the FOUR horseman? by computational+super · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I come to a parking lot where signs directed me to call a number and someone would be out

      My wife is obsessed with using this. I hate it. Half the time I call the number and it rings for ten minutes and nobody picks up. I end up walking over to the door (which is 100 yards from the parking space) and knocking on it to get some pimple-faced teenager's attention.

      --
      Proud neuron in the Slashdot hivemind since 2002.
    7. Re:And what of the FOUR horseman? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Sounds like you're giving up after the first attempt.

      Can you really blame them when the experience was that much of a hassle compared to having it shipped directly to their home?

    8. Re:And what of the FOUR horseman? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      One chance is what many people give restaurants/retailers/etc. I'll never bother with hundreds of chains because they have equally have wasted my time like the parent writes. I don't like Wal*Mart because of...wait for it...the lighting. I can't stand the lighting in the stores, it's the most depressing place ever. Is my opinion unreasonable? Maybe, but you'll never find me in Wal*Mart ever again because they cheaped out on lighting.

    9. Re:And what of the FOUR horseman? by tomhath · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It can't win on convenience, it can't win on speed, it can't win on experience. It is a monoculture of price reduction

      It's been a monoculture of selling lower quality with worse service at a lower price than the competition for a long, long time. Sears drove away mom and pop stores several decades ago, K-mart essentially drove Sears out of business a few decades ago, Walmart drove K-Mart out a couple of decades ago. Now it's Walmart's turn.

      There won't be an apocalypse, just another iteration of the same cycle.

    10. Re:And what of the FOUR horseman? by avandesande · · Score: 1

      I just bought tires for my car from walmart this way and didn't have any of your issues. Saved me a lot of shipping.

      --
      love is just extroverted narcissism
    11. Re: And what of the FOUR horseman? by reanjr · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Trying to serve the poorest people - who only shop at the places with the lowest prices - is part of the retail problem. If the store is focused on low prices, they can't afford to focus on anything else. This is how Wal Mart came to be reviled by anyone who can afford to not shop there.

    12. Re:And what of the FOUR horseman? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The really interesting thing is that you probably think your one example while ignoring his entire point somehow negates his point.

    13. Re:And what of the FOUR horseman? by naubol · · Score: 2

      Sounds like you're giving up after the first attempt.

      Aren't you making their point for them? Is there some sort of long term value to forcing retail experiences to have built in retry at the consumer level? It seems quite the opposite. Does it make a retailer more competitive if we don't have to have a second attempt when purchasing the stock?

      --
      Reality is a slackware box running on a 386 tucked away in god's sock drawer.
    14. Re: And what of the FOUR horseman? by bad-badtz-maru · · Score: 1

      That's only one segment of retail, though. Every brick and mortar is getting hammered, regardless of the target demographic.

    15. Re: And what of the FOUR horseman? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Belonged to Sam's Club for some years. Bad lighting, dirty stores, poor or no customer service, understaffing, six or seven variations on every product, all from the PRC with poor quality. Just a bad experience.
      Got out of bulk stores for years. Found a Costco. Couldn't have been more different.
      Clean. Organized. Good quality. Helpful,motivated staff.
      Comparable prices.
      Main difference. Advertising budget. Costco spends money on basics, not touting itself. Word of mouth works. And they don't seem to feel the need to kill all the local competition.
      Locally the Sams Club just closed after losing to a Costco up the street for years. 30-40 cars in Sams parking lot, Costco's is full.
      And no, I don't work for either.

    16. Re:And what of the FOUR horseman? by avandesande · · Score: 2

      No I don't. One anecdote is just as good as another- you ever hear of confirmation bias? You like to hear bad anecdotes about Walmart and don't like to hear good ones.

      --
      love is just extroverted narcissism
    17. Re: And what of the FOUR horseman? by Lanthanide · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Nothing so direct, but wanting to roll back healthcare from millions of people is substantially the same thing.

    18. Re:And what of the FOUR horseman? by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      I just bought tires for my car from walmart this way and didn't have any of your issues.

      I have also used Walmart's buy-online-pickup-in-store, and had no issues at all. It was fast and easy every time.

    19. Re:And what of the FOUR horseman? by nasch · · Score: 1

      Amazon is building a huge warehouse about 2 miles from my house. Wondering if we're going to get same day delivery once it opens. How is a store supposed to compete with that?

    20. Re:And what of the FOUR horseman? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've used the "pick up at store" thing at Fry's and it works well. If they have it in stock, they put it aside for you in the department that otherwise sells the item. You then show up, pick it up (and perhaps one or two things you hadn't thought of - marketing!) and take it to the checkout. No need to find the pickup counter and wait in line at Walmart (or, in the olde dayze, at Sears, Penny's, Emporium, et al). You may save a few pennies at Walmart compared to, say, Amazon (in fact, you commonly do pay less at Walmart with store pickup if the same item is available - beware store brands or special models!), but with Prime shipping to your door is it worth it?
      Haven't tried the ship-to-store thing at Best Buy or Staples, but their web sites can be used to find out if something is in stock at the store then go over there.

    21. Re: And what of the FOUR horseman? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      This is how Wal Mart came to be reviled by anyone who can afford to not shop there.

      Wal-Mart became reviled by doing everything in their power to destroy the local economies in areas where they operated so they could use the resulting market power to screw everybody who dealt with them (municipalities, suppliers, employees, customers, right down the line).

    22. Re:And what of the FOUR horseman? by superdave80 · · Score: 1

      I had nearly the same experience with Sears a few years ago. By the end, there were three people involved, and I actually had to go to their office in the back of the store while they asked someone about my order. I had to pick up my daughter by a certain time, so I finally just left and ordered it online again, but had it shipped to my house. Showed up two days later.

    23. Re: And what of the FOUR horseman? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That (Amazon's) business model depends on several things that are currently common (but not ubiquituous):

      -availability of internet
      -trusted online payment
      -a working shipping system
      -customers who can securely recive their deliveries
      -keeping the whole thing secure from sifnificant fraud

    24. Re: And what of the FOUR horseman? by sound+vision · · Score: 0

      What you have described is just the classical retail business being consolidated into a few big players, and then the various ups and downs those players have had. The business they all are in, retailing, hadn't changed significantly. With online retailers, it has. Not that traditional retailers won't have a place in the future, but they might only have half the revenue to work with.

    25. Re: And what of the FOUR horseman? by kaatochacha · · Score: 1

      no, it is not. To use a car analogy: Just like refusing to fund streetlights would not the be the same things as running everyone over.
      Refusing to fund streetlights is bad. Running everyone over is worse.

    26. Re: And what of the FOUR horseman? by mattack2 · · Score: 1

      I can afford to not shop there, but I'd rather buy equivalent things at the place that is cheapest, including some travel time. So I mostly don't go to WalMart because there isn't a close/convenient one to me.

      I will sometimes pay a TINY bit more for Amazon, due to their convenience and customer support in the very rare times there's been a problem in the past.. but if something is cheaper somewhere else, I'll go there too, even if it's some small site.

    27. Re:And what of the FOUR horseman? by ProgrammerInMA · · Score: 1

      Why did you buy from Walmart?

    28. Re: And what of the FOUR horseman? by knorthern+knight · · Score: 1

      I can also afford to shop elsewhere. But just try to get a simple tee-shirt appropriate for an office anywhere else. Walmart cheaps out, so they don't have team logos, basketball players' names, cute slogans, etc, embroidered, or Nike swoosh logos. Walmart is about the only place you can get a plain tee-shirt.

      --

      I'm not repeating myself
      I'm an X window user; I'm an ex-Windows user
    29. Re: And what of the FOUR horseman? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Burning down the stores does nothing if you hire the same people when you rebuild.

    30. Re: And what of the FOUR horseman? by Type44Q · · Score: 1

      Walmart shills have modpoints to spend; who'd a thunk?

    31. Re:And what of the FOUR horseman? by RespekMyAthorati · · Score: 1

      Wondering if we're going to get same day delivery once it opens.

      My friend who lives in Seattle regularly gets two hour delivery, and sometimes as little as 30 minutes.

    32. Re:And what of the FOUR horseman? by nasch · · Score: 1

      Nice... looking forward to it.

    33. Re: And what of the FOUR horseman? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Under Obamacare I was twice turned away from a hospital for financial reasons.

    34. Re: And what of the FOUR horseman? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Really bro? Everywhere I've lived in the States, you can get a plain black tee-shirt at pretty much any clothing store.

      Alternatively, you could try dressing like an adult when you're at the office.

    35. Re: And what of the FOUR horseman? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This. Retail dug it's own grave by being indifferent, if not downright hostile, towards it's community. They charge you a 600% markup then accuse YOU of stealing. And let's not forget these businesses are the reason hanging out in public is a punishable offense called "loitering".

      The best thing about Walmart is the parking lot. If, yod forbid, you find yourself homeless (yes you bougois boy, fires and market crashes happen) then you can sleep there without getting harassed by cops. I would have preferred the meadow that was there before the parking lot, but still...

  2. Sears by darthsilun · · Score: 1

    Need I say more?

    1. Re:Sears by stealth_finger · · Score: 2

      A little bit more might help.

      --
      Wanna buy a shirt?
      https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
    2. Re:Sears by geekmux · · Score: 1

      Need I say more?

      I count six Sears department stores operating within a 30-mile radius near me. That's not including the additional Sears outlet stores.

      What exactly was your point again?

    3. Re:Sears by Galaga88 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I need to hurry up and film a zombie film in our local Sears before they close they place down completely.

      Going in there is creepy as hell.

    4. Re:Sears by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well. Sears is owned by Kmart. How many of those do you see? Have you actually been to Sears? That shit is run by like..4 people.

    5. Re:Sears by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, Sears and Kmart are owned by Sears Holdings.

    6. Re:Sears by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I still think they were foolish. When Sears merged with K-Mart, they should have re-named their stores S-Mart. Their slogan would've been fantastic!

      Shop smart, shop S-mart.

      Now, if only we could get Ash to say his line right ... Klaatu-Barada-Nic-*achoo*

    7. Re:Sears by Kierthos · · Score: 1

      Sears' CEO, Eddie Lampert, is basically sabotaging Sears in the long-term so he can reap short-term results for himself. They've had to sell off major brands in the last few years, like Craftsman. Sure, they have a deal to keep selling Craftsman tools for the next 15 years, but after that?

      --
      Mr. Hu is not a ninja.
    8. Re:Sears by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Need I say more?

      I count six Sears department stores operating within a 30-mile radius near me. That's not including the additional Sears outlet stores.

      What exactly was your point again?

      There are no less than 8 closed Sears stores near me (maybe not exactly 30 miles), and only three stores left, along with an outlet/repair stop.

      Sorry you don't know that your personal experience is not universal. Sears closed over 300 stores last year, and is over 100 for this year, and more next.

    9. Re:Sears by Frederic54 · · Score: 4, Informative

      They are dead in Canada, finished, no more Sears.

      --
      "Science will win because it works." - Stephen Hawking
    10. Re:Sears by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      To be fair here, Sears's problems are in part due to the mismanagement of their randroid CEO, not just the issues facing retail as a whole. They could be doing better, if they weren't being run into the ground. Compare Sears/Kmart to Target for example.

    11. Re:Sears by gachunt · · Score: 2

      Sears Canada announced they are closing all retail stores two weeks ago, and has started liquidation, with all stores expected to be shuttered early next year.

      Sadly - but not surprising - they increased most of their prices before the liquidation began, so their "20% off everything" is a faux bargain. So, it might take a bit longer, as most consumers aren't falling for it.

    12. Re:Sears by Kierthos · · Score: 3, Informative

      There are already a few businesses called S-Mart. Hell, I pass one (a convenience store) on my way to work every day.

      --
      Mr. Hu is not a ninja.
    13. Re:Sears by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cool story, bro. http://money.cnn.com/2004/11/17/news/fortune500/sears_kmart/ Kmart still bought it. They then merged into Sears Holding. Still owned, bought by Kmart. So the original point still..stands. Actually.

    14. Re: Sears by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why is the a "randroid"?

    15. Re: Sears by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, this is a grain of salt scenario. I'm pretty tired of chicken little reporting. Things will continue to evolve, just as they always have. Retail will not collapse in a heap anymore than you'll be picked up by a flying taxi in 5 years. It's called reality, you should try it some time, even if it does register less clicks. It's funny to me that clickbait used to be the sole province of shady scamsters, now it is an accepted business practice. No one can predict the future, not even 'AI', and it is sure as hell impossible to predict human behavior. I give this piece three out of five mehs.

    16. Re:Sears by Baron_Yam · · Score: 2

      >Sadly - but not surprising - they increased most of their prices before the liquidation began, so their "20% off everything" is a faux bargain.

      One of the reasons I've rarely shopped at Sears is that this has always been their business method for as long as I can recall. The deepest discount you tend to find at Sears still leaves you paying more than you would if you looked elsewhere.

      They presented themselves as a mid-range department store, but operated like one of those shady junk stores with "GOING OUT OF BUSINESS!" signs in their windows for years.

      I have some sympathy for the low-level workers, but if there's anybody higher up the chain being hurt by this bankruptcy, it only warms my heart.

    17. Re:Sears by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The amazing thing about Sears (and Penny's, too) was that they started 100.00% as mail-order only.
      It wasn't until later that they felt a need to go brick-and-mortar - but they still kept their catalog business.
      Amazon shouldn't exist - Sears should have had an easy transition from mail/phone orders to https:// sales.

      Crazy!

      CAP === 'calcuim'

    18. Re:Sears by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just because they are there today doesn't mean they will be tomorrow. Sales at each of those stores this quarter were 15% less than they were last quarter. They'll be down more than that next quarter.

      6 stores in a 30 mile radius represents quite a lot of fixed cost. A high percentage of fixed cost is great when things are booming, but they are a noose when things aren't.

    19. Re:Sears by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I need to hurry up and film a zombie film in our local Sears before they close they place down completely.

      I can't imagine what use zombies have for low end clothing and chinese tools.

    20. Re:Sears by kilfarsnar · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Need I say more?

      It's a little ironic that Sears is on the way out these days. A big part of their business used to be the Sears Catalog for mail order. They were basically doing what Amazon is doing before the Internet existed!

      --
      "What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
    21. Re:Sears by MBGMorden · · Score: 1

      Cool story, bro. http://money.cnn.com/2004/11/1... Kmart still bought it. They then merged into Sears Holding. Still owned, bought by Kmart. So the original point still..stands. Actually.

      If you, however, actually really sort of look at the heart of the specific matter, than you will in time realize that many, if not all, of the additional - dare I say, superfluous - words that you are choosing to occasionally pepper throughout your comment, probably are not strictly necessary.

      --
      "People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
    22. Re:Sears by kbonin · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Many people used to buy Craftsman tools due to high quality (compared to almost any other consumer brand) plus the lifetime warranty - the math made sense. But for years now the majority of Craftsman tools for sale are made in China ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... ), the quality has plummeted to Harbor Freight levels, and every time you get a warranty replacement the quality drops. Normal MBA thinking - how can I goose profits this quarter, and my golden parachute will carry me out the door when things go bad. This thinking across American business is whats killing American retail. Why buy crap from Sears or Wall-Mart when I can get slightly better crap faster on Amazon? Or if you don't mind waiting, roll the dice and order your crap directly from China. Related, no connection or affiliate code - I don't go to hobby stores any more, I go to https://hobbyking.com/ . Sure, sometimes the parts that arrive are bad, but most of the time its exactly what the local store offers, at 1/3 the price. If people (in general) don't want (to pay for) quality, and business managers don't care about killing the business, then everything is short term now. Silly people don't realize that trickles down to their own jobs. Or already has.

    23. Re: Sears by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      A follower of the philosophies of Ayn Rand, which, when you apply some very basic critical thinking skills, fall apart rather fast, and which should be grown out of by teenage to young adult years.

      They appeal well to the narcissist, because they stroke his or her ego by saying that they're more important to the driving of the economy than the workers who support them, and that the poors would be successful if only they weren't so damn lazy. But reality tends to be the opposite, with those worse off usually working their tails off to their own detriment, since it then blocks them from seeing, or at least believing that there's an easier way to handle something, since they are denied the time, network, or effort to improve themselves.

      For more specific details, just Google the problems with objectivism or libertarianism, since it doesn't pay to rehash everything wrong with it as a system, when it's been done so much before.

    24. Re:Sears by dryeo · · Score: 2

      The executives all got large bonuses, the workers got screwed along with anyone who bought something with a warranty.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    25. Re:Sears by pnutjam · · Score: 1

      That worked like a charm when they closed the sears hardware by me. Everything was long gone by the time the real discounts appeared.

    26. Re:Sears by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      There are already a few businesses called S-Mart. Hell, I pass one (a convenience store) on my way to work every day.

      That's a really good store. But don't screw off in the Housewares department. That Ashe guy they have working there doesn't tolerate any crap!

    27. Re: Sears by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Because he ruined the entire company via libertarian business policies. Internal departments were told to compete against each other, leading coworkers to undermine each other.

    28. Re: Sears by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would believe it if I haven't slowly seen my local retailers disappearing. The local mall is about 70% filled with empty store fronts and no plans to introduce anything new, Sears is now one of them. This is a fairly rural and poor area, however, it's the densest area for hundreds of miles. Even stores catering the lower income customers which you would expect to flourish (Payless shoes, Rue21, etc.) are struggled and have closed.

      The situation is so pathetic that a state senator actually worked and negotiated with a Macy's regional manager to keep them in the area. That is a pretty pathetic use of a senators time. Thank heavens for Amazon and online shopping because if it weren't for these, I'd have to drive hours to purchase a lot of stuff that simply isn't available.

      While retail markups are a necessary evil to cover brick and mortar overhead, there has to be a compromise where products are available very quickly and physically inspectable, yet at a more competitive cost to online shops that can offer lower prices because don't require the physical presence overhead.

    29. Re:Sears by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sears isn't a victim of a retail apocalypse, it's a victim of Eddie Lampert - the closest thing we have to a real-word example of Ayn Rand's theories put into practice.

    30. Re: Sears by reanjr · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Why not just look at the price and stop worrying about everyone else and whether they got a better deal? Why do you care if an item is 20% off of $12.50 or it's $10? Is the product worth $10 to you? Buy it. Fuck the posted discount rate. Ignoring sales, coupons, discounts, et al, is part of being a responsible shopper.

    31. Re: Sears by reanjr · · Score: 1

      I've only read OF Rand, but I do believe you are conflating Rand's philosophies with her utopian fantasies. Philosophically, she seems largely in line with many modern humanists. It is her fantasies about how the economy works which are utopian. But you can say the same thing about many socialist writers. The philosophy of socialism is different from the utopian fantasy literature about socialist societies.

    32. Re:Sears by Dr_Terminus · · Score: 2

      Good article here about the downfall of Sears https://www.nytimes.com/2017/0.... Some of it is certainly due to the sorry state of retail these days, but a large portion of it seems to be due to mismanagement and greed by the new owner of the company.

      If you think about it, Sears was the original Amazon with their mail order catalog - you would think that based on that history, they should have been in a good position to compete with Amazon in direct internet sales. But instead of investing in this area, the company was raided as someones personal piggy bank, leading us to the current situation.

    33. Re:Sears by Mashiki · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Sears killed itself by over-pricing it's competitors so that shouldn't be a surprise. When you can buy a snowblower from canadian tire for $300 and you can walk out the door with it and sears is selling the same model for $700 that will come in 4 days. It's pretty easy to see what's going to happen. Same with major appliances, clothing, and so on. Round that out with the absolute worst customer service around? It was one compounding stupid error on top of another.

      Kinda like Target when they opened up here. Far too many stores, no inventory chain, hugely overpriced compared to their competitors. Many cases the store shelves were empty and they had no product to sell at all. Then there was the belief by the CEO that Canadians would "pay whatever we tell them to pay for goods." Sorry guys. The middle class in Canada is already stretched to the breaking point, that's not how it works.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    34. Re:Sears by lgw · · Score: 3, Insightful

      his thinking across American business is whats killing American retail. Why buy crap from Sears or Wall-Mart when I can get slightly better crap faster on Amazon? Or if you don't mind waiting, roll the dice and order your crap directly from China.

      In related news, China's dictator recently announced a crackdown on fraudulent Chinese sellers to overseas markets. If ordering direct from China stops being a risk, look out US retail! Even Amazon will be threatened.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    35. Re: Sears by quintus_horatius · · Score: 1

      Why not just look at the price and stop worrying about everyone else and whether they got a better deal?

      The reason is two-fold:

      • Some people are swayed by the idea of a discount

        There's an old joke that goes something like, "A man will pay $20 for a $10 item that he needs. A woman will pay $10 for a $20 item that she doesn't need." If you remove the sexism part, it underscores the problem: some people will shop just because they think they're getting a deal. They probably get a dopamine rush, not unlike gambling.

      • Once a store gets on that treadmill it's very, very hard to get off of it

        Once a store goes down the route of discounting, in order to attract the emotional deal-hunters, they tend to alienate the intellectual shoppers. If they try to stop they lose their emotional customer base but, having already lost their intellectual customers, they're left with almost nobody.

    36. Re: Sears by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The philosophy of actual socialism is that helping everyone results in a better society.

      Instead of only getting the benefit of genius's who come from wealthy family, you get the benefit of all genius's- even those born in poverty because you provided them food for their brains to grow, education for their brains to reach full potential, and reasonably equal opportunity for them to express their genius when they are adults.

      As opposed to the alternative which is that the genius's from poor families are replaced by average (or even sub-average) people from wealthy families.

      The U.S. is not a meritocracy and hasn't been for about 5 generations. Many of the good and important jobs are virtually inherited by the children of people who were brilliant. The son of a senator is a senator. The son of an actor pushes out other better actors who are not the son of an actor.. The sons of judges are lawyers or judges and so on.

      it helps the kids, but it hurts the country.

      Socialism mitigates that tendency but can't erase it. But the relation between child and parent wealth is lower in socialist countries. In the U.S. it's highly correlated these days.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    37. Re:Sears by datavirtue · · Score: 1

      It was a merger where KMart gave Sears money. Its not like K-Mart gave someone money and Sears was packed up and slid over the counter to KMart.

      --
      I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
    38. Re:Sears by rjune · · Score: 1

      You have to shop carefully and check prices. When stores go out of business, they generally bring in a huge amount of inventory to sell. People fall for the "Going out of Business Sale" signs. I can't speak for any other state, but Wisconsin actually limits how long a going out of business sale can last, otherwise some stores would be perpetually going out of business.

    39. Re: Sears by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Huh? Why buy something for $20 that you're easily capable of buying at a lower price? You could be Bill Gates and money is still a finite resource, and comparing prices is easy with Amazon on your cell/stores being next to each other.

    40. Re:Sears by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      If ordering direct from China stops being a risk, look out US retail!

      I have ordered from AliExpress dozens of times, and have never had a problem.

    41. Re:Sears by sjames · · Score: 1

      The irony runs deeper. Amazon is now talking about building brick and mortar in support of it's internet order business. Which is how Sears became a retail store in the first place.

    42. Re: Sears by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 2

      None of your assertions are backed up by evidence. Capitalist countries win more Nobel Prizes, publish more science, and have more technical innovation. So socialism is not better at harnessing genius. If anything, socialism makes nepotism worse. Cuba is ruled by the brother of the previous leader. NK is ruled by the son of the last leader, and the grandson of the one before that.

    43. Re:Sears by uberdilligaff · · Score: 1

      Sears won't be operating in 15 years, so it doesn't really matter.

      --
      Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain. --Friederich Schiller
    44. Re: Sears by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      I've tried reading Rand's philosophy. Absolutely frightening that people would take it seriously.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    45. Re: Sears by superdave80 · · Score: 0

      The U.S. is not a meritocracy and hasn't been for about 5 generations. Many of the good and important jobs are virtually inherited by the children of people who were brilliant. The son of a senator is a senator. The son of an actor pushes out other better actors who are not the son of an actor.. The sons of judges are lawyers or judges and so on.

      Wow, you really believe that? Sure, there are lots of examples of a child following in their parents' careers, and having some built in advantages, but there is absolutely nothing that prevents one from pursing any career path they want. And where do you get the idea that we let poor people starve in this country?

    46. Re:Sears by ctilsie242 · · Score: 1

      Craftsman lost their good name by offshoring production to China. What is the difference between a Craftsman tool and one from Harbor Freight? Not much.

      Sears should have kept their manufacturing in the US, increased the price, and competed against MAC or Snap-on. Sears then would have had a top tier brand where people would pay a top-tier price for. It may not beat Kobalt or Husky by name, but by quality and profit per sale.

    47. Re:Sears by ctilsie242 · · Score: 1

      There are buyers agents for Taobao (Taobaoring for example) which make buying from internal Chinese markets relatively inexpensive and safe. I've bought LED bulbs for less than $1.00 each (including shipping), for example as a test.

      US retail needs to change, and change away from bulk, throwaway goods. Instead, aim for top tier, well-made items that may be more expensive than stuff fresh off the boat... but would be repairable and indefinitely maintainable. The days of disposable stuff are coming to a close, and people can't afford to replace stuff often, so focusing on selling a good, then selling parts and repairs is the way to survive.

    48. Re: Sears by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nepotism isn't new.

      Debbie Reynolds. Carrie Fisher. Some daughter.

      Mahatma Gandhi, Indira Gandhi, Rahul Gandhi.

      Kim Il Sung. Kim Jong Il. Kim Jong Un.

      I don't see it limited to capitalism, or the west, at all.

      captcha: declined

    49. Re:Sears by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sears had a zombie page
      http://www.cnn.com/2010/TECH/web/10/27/sears.zombies/index.html

    50. Re:Sears by darthsilun · · Score: 1

      If you think about it, Sears was the original Amazon with their mail order catalog - you would think that based on that history, they should have been in a good position to compete with Amazon in direct internet sales..

      Actually, to give credit where credit is due, Montgomery Ward came before even Sears. But Wards died of its own stupidity long before Amazon even came along.

      And to my astonishment, Wards has risen, like a phoenix, from the ashes. Who knew? I certainly didn't until this whole thread piqued my curiosity and I looked them up. http://wards.com/ Not the original company though, just another retailer that bought the name.

    51. Re:Sears by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes. I am still struggling to understand how a company founded on catalogs and mail order failed to at least make a living with an internet catalog and some, uh, mail order. It's like going broke selling water in the desert. WTF?

    52. Re: Sears by laughing_badger · · Score: 1

      Capitalist countries win more Nobel Prizes, publish more science, and have more technical innovation.

      It depends entirely on how you define 'Socialist' and 'Capitalist'. A lot of that scientific and technical innovation is coming from European countries with nationalised healthcare and strong social safety nets. You'd probably have to count them as 'both'.

      --
      Help children born unable to swallow - www.tofs.org.uk
    53. Re: Sears by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is a pretty pathetic use of a senators time.

      Looking out for the economic well-being of the area and constituency he/she represents is a waste of time?

      That is EXACTLY what they should be doing, not virtue-signaling bullshit about how we *need* refugees and immigrants,
      and they *need* you to pay for them because you are oh-so privileged and wealthy........

    54. Re: Sears by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

      Ahem: Venezuela. I swear, if you pull out the No True Scotsman fallacy, I'll shit in your pants. Here's Bill Ayers, a man who knows socialism far better than you, praising Venezuela's socialist system.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    55. Re: Sears by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

      Socialism is government control of the means of production. A market economy with a welfare state is NOT Socialist, no matter how many times Bernie Sanders lied to you about it.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    56. Re: Sears by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "If anything, socialism makes nepotism worse."

      All animals are equal, comrade. But some animals are more equal than others.

    57. Re: Sears by Whorhay · · Score: 1

      Are you serious? Where you are born on the socio-economic ladder in the USA is a huge indicator comparatively of where you'll end up. Yes, it is in theory always possible to bootstrap yourself out of the lowest depths of poverty into wealth. But the odds of successfully improving your lot in life are fundamentally tied to the resources available to you and how much time you have to work with those resources. Even people in the lower middle class have a head and shoulders advantage over someone born into poverty. Think of any RTS or survival game you've ever played with random elements, if you get a bad spawn or series of events it can hamstring you for the rest of the play session. Life can work precisely the same and you can't just start a new game. Once upon a time when there was unclaimed land and frontiers maybe you could go reinvent yourself and rapidly climb back up the ladder of success, but those days have been gone for a century or more now.

      So far as child starvation goes I would guess that malnutrition is a more common issue. It isn't really something that we as a society can readily fix though. We already provide welfare money for groceries and such but that relies on parents spending that money wisely.

    58. Re:Sears by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's weird that nobody knows how to spell Penneys.

    59. Re: Sears by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can give a failing capitalist country too: USA.

    60. Re: Sears by Altrag · · Score: 1

      We use the most common definition here:
      Socialist: Anything we don't like.
      Capitalist: Anything that keeps the status quo.

      What people forget is that the US is already highly socialized: You aren't paying for your own roads, your own police force, your own fire department, your own military, etc. All of those things are socialized goods already. But most of the anti-socialist people just ignore those facts, or they think that if the government pays a private contractor to build the road that its somehow capitalist. Its not, the taxpayer is still paying for it, its just being filtered through an additional layer of obfuscation.

      There may or may not be benefits to that extra layer.. It allows for bidding and thus at least a bit of competition, but often the bidding process itself is highly flawed either because bidders severely understate their costs knowing that once they have the contract its unlikely to be taken away, or in an unfortunate number of cases the bidding is just flat out skewed or ignored all together in favor of nepotism as with the recent Whitefish Energy scandal.

      But even with the bidding introducing some capitalist aspects, fundamentally the road is still being built with public dollars and is a social good.

      Healthcare, the current poster boy for capitalism vs socialism.. is a social system, even without Obamacare. Your premiums (whether you pay them yourself or your employer does) all go into a big pool and then get distributed by the insurance company as they see fit -- sounds very similar to how the government takes taxes to provide social services, but with less oversight.

    61. Re: Sears by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good lord, that's true everywhere. If my parents are poor, there is a greater chance they might be lazy. I'm not saying they ARE lazy, but the chance is higher.
      In turn, their teachings to me have a better chance of me inheriting their inclinations: laziness included.
      Again, this might not always be true, but it often is. I have poor relatives, cousins. Their parents were quite lazy while my dad worked his ass off. My cousins are like their parents, I'm more like my father...

    62. Re: Sears by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      A lot of that scientific and technical innovation is coming from European countries with nationalised healthcare and strong social safety nets.

      Social services are not "socialism". The American government spends more per capita on healthcare than any European country except Norway. That doesn't make America "socialist".

      Socialism means government ownership of the means of production. ALL countries are "both" to some extent. In America, the government owns the schools, and the post office. That is socialist. In NK, people are allowed to have private vegetable gardens, and to sell the surplus. America is 90% capitalism and NK is 90% socialism.

      As you go from the capitalist end of the spectrum to the socialist end, innovation by almost any measure declines. Claiming that socialism is better at "harnessing geniuses" is nonsense. The opposite is true, and when socialist countries tear down their walls, the first people to flee are the highly educated "geniuses".

    63. Re: Sears by kaatochacha · · Score: 1

      The philosophy, or the fairy stories? Because if you're talking about Atlas Shrugged, it's like saying Tolkien is a racist because he dislikes orcs.

    64. Re: Sears by kaatochacha · · Score: 1

      Thank heavens for Amazon and online shopping because if it weren't for these, I'd have to drive hours to purchase a lot of stuff that simply isn't available..

      You realize Amazon is one of the causes, right?

    65. Re:Sears by CyberGarp · · Score: 1

      This thread discussion of Sears as an example is really a bit of an outlier. Yes the retail apocalypse is hitting them hard and they are shutting down stores right and left. However, Sears primarily did this to themselves as the cause of their current woes started before this downturn. Their CEO read Atlas Shrugged and decided it was a perfect philosophy and restructured the entire company around its principals. One of the big things is that all departments were setup in competition with each other. There was no working together on anything--other departments might claim the precious bounty. Each department had to compete for budget, floor space, etc. Everything was a internal competition. The company has quickly self destructed as this policy impacted important decisions at all levels in which nothing was about the good of the whole--only the self. Doing this right before a massive retail downturn is like being in the middle of Ragnarok and standing around punching one's own own face.

      --

      I used to wonder what was so holy about a silent night, now I have a child.
    66. Re: Sears by Pav · · Score: 1

      Ask someone from one of the left leaning European states. Germany is well known for their welfare state, and success in the market so I won't discuss them. Sweden, with a population of 7 million (7 million!!! About equivalent to Georgia) has the most international companies per head in the world bar none (SAAB, Volvo, Husqvana, Ikea, Ericsson, H&M etc...), has an aerospace industry (including the Gripen fighter aircraft which approaches the capability of the F-35 while being MUCH cheaper). They also build their own submarines. Again - this is with a population of 7 million.

    67. Re: Sears by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      There are no purely capitalist countries. All countries are at least partially "socialist" these days.

      Capitalism is good for rewarding motivation and effort at first.

      It's not really capitalism but oligarchy and the concentration of wealth which is the problem- not capitalism.

      When you start capitalism- everyone is equal. The smart, hard workers thrive and the less smart, less industrious workers don't. There is a lot of luck. And the relationship between family wealth and individual success is lower.

      As wealth concentrates beyond a certain level it becomes anti-capitalistic and anti-meritocratic.

      The winners of the prior generation tilt the scales for the next generation so their less industrious, less intelligent offspring do better than they would on their own merits.

      In business, the winners use their wealth, power, and influence to suppress competition.

      Heck- one reason china does so well is that they are not struggling with some of the laws big business had passed specifically to suppress smaller competition in the united states.

      Also be aware that socialism is an overloaded term.

      Socialism- is where the government owns the means of production.
      "socialism" (no capital "S") is where the government helps people who fall on hard times. This includes national disasters (without "socialism", natural disasters would render large swaths of the country unlivable), poor parents (without "socialism", kids don't get healthy food and grow up less intelligent), fair schooling (without "socialism" kids don't get educated and are a burden on society instead of an asset).

      Capitalism in a government regulated fair market is pretty good for a few generations. Then it gets captured and turned into Crony Capitalism which is bad. Often reformers (like Teddy Roosevelt) temporarily correct the problems and return it back to a more fair form of capitalism. But without mechanisms to break up concentrations of wealth, companies and families inevitably become more powerful than most governments.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    68. Re: Sears by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      Your issue is the difference between "socialism" and "Socialism". it's an overloaded term. One refers to the economic theory of the government owning the means of production. The closest we get to that in the states are government services and monopoly utility providers.

      A market economy with welfare has "socialism" but it is not Socialistic.

      next week, we'll discuss read and read-- two other completely different words.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    69. Re: Sears by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      Both are socialism. Just not the same. Any more than 'read' and 'read' are the same.

      "socialism" comes from 'social welfare' and Socialism comes from the economic theory of Socialism.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    70. Re: Sears by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      More than that.

      Government mandates hospitals not let pregnant ladies and 3 year olds bleed out on the curb.

      Pregnant ladies and 3 year olds don't pay their $50,000 in medical bills.

      The government gives them some money (not enough) to cover part of it- say $15,000.

      The hospital puts the $35,000 in their cost basis which the insurance companies pay.

      Now everyone with insurance is paying a few cents more premiums for each pregnant lady and 3 year old. Plus a markup of 15% for the insurance companies profit.

      So it's IS socialized. it's just hidden.

      (and I left out where the hospital writes off the debt and pays less taxes on it's profits- which means tax payers somewhere have to kick in a few extra dimes in taxes to cover those lost taxes.)

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    71. Re: Sears by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      heck I don't know. probably just making it up.

      https://www.politico.com/story...
      https://thinkprogress.org/stev...

      http://www.motherjones.com/pol...

      https://www.npr.org/sections/t...

      http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/con...

      ---

      https://www.childtrends.org/in...

      In 2015, more than 1 in 6 U.S. children (18 percent) lived in households that were food-insecure at some point during the year, and 0.7 percent experienced the most severe level of need, where food intake is reduced and regular eating patterns are disrupted.[1]

      https://www.nokidhungry.org/si...

      Child Hunger is a Health Problem
      While every American is morally offended by the existence of childhood hunger, pediatricians and public health
      professionals see the tragic effects of this unnecessary condition graphically imprinted on the bodies and minds
      of children;
      â Hungry children are sick more often, and more likely to have to be hospitalized (the costs
      of which are passed along to the business community as insurance and tax burdens);
      â Hungry children suffer growth impairment that precludes their reaching their full
      physical potential,
      â Hungry children incur developmental impairments that limit their physical, intellectual
      and emotional development.

      ---

      Cause I'm just crazy that way.

      Much of this could be addressed for *PENNIES* on the dollar yet republicans have been targeting poor children for over a decade now (it really started under bush JR).

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    72. Re: Sears by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      yes and on the chart of the benefit a wealthy parent provides, the U.S. has been trending towards oligarchy and aristocratic societies since the 1970s.

      Essentially we are losing some brilliant minds, performers, etc. so Will Smith's son can star in the Karate Kid remake.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    73. Re:Sears by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They'll have to fix the shipping problem. Even DHL takes longer from China. From Europe no problem. 1-3 days max. China probably closer to 7 days to a week and a half. And nobody pays $80 for a $10-50 item. No. It's still cheaper and faster to ship from within the US onwards. If China fixes its shipping problems then maybe.

    74. Re:Sears by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yea- Canada is economically challenging to setup a business because the government steals a lot of money from the people for social programs. Many states in the United States are like this too- California, Massachusetts, New York, New Jersey, etc. There are good reasons we have to purchase a lot of stuff from the US and its got nothing to do with population numbers. I frequently find I have this problem with purchasing electronics that'll work properly with my GNU/Linux system and so I find myself buying from the United States. There are many items that I just can't get in Canada besides these items, but I fully understand why the companies I'm buying from can't make it work here financially. I've considered immigrating to New Hampshire myself to take part in the Free State Project. Those guys have got it right. Let the people have there money back and we can take care of ourselves. I don't need my government to do what I can do for myself when the state doesn't interfere and steal the funds I need to feed, cloth, house, and medicate myself (ie health care).

    75. Re:Sears by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Taxation isn't theft, you fucking idiot. Please stay in Canadia.

    76. Re: Sears by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Illegal taxation is. Research US federal income taxes and how they are "optional". Also involuntarily taking money from underrepresented groups to give to others may not be called theft but functionally works the same. In the end of the day if you don't pay robbers they will point guns at you....the same happens with the IRS. Sure taxes often times go back into infrastructure and ultimately benefit many substantially more so than paying protection to the mob. But in the end of the day, if your class is not fairly represented and you disagree with how your money is spent, you still have to relinquish it at gun point if necessary.

    77. Re: Sears by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The PHDs come from all over the world from capitalist and socialist countries. Higher Education is not representative of the main society in the US where there is no meritocracy.

    78. Re: Sears by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

      "There's glory for you!"
      "I don't know what you mean by 'glory'," Alice said.
      Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. "Of course you don't - till I tell you. I meant 'there's a nice knock-down argument for you'!"
      "But 'glory' doesn't mean 'a nice knock-down argument'," Alice objected.
      "When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more or less."
      "The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
      "The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be Master - that's all."

      -- Alice in Wonderland

      "The Beginning of Wisdom is Calling Things by Their Right Names"

      -- Chinese saying attributed to Confucius

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    79. Re: Sears by bingoUV · · Score: 1

      Water is worth a trillion dollars to me - or at least it is worth all I possess. Guess if I actually pay that much for water.

      --
      Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
    80. Re: Sears by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Blending those two political/economic theories together can often work quite well, though.
      Australia, UK, France and many other places (with established industries) have seemed to survive tolerably well, though inequality is growing fast, but not as fast as in the USA.

    81. Re: Sears by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're confused about socialism. Communist dictatorship is not socialism. Capitalism and socialism are not mutually exclusive. Right to a free lawyer is socialism. Right to free health care is socialism. Paying taxes to support infrastructure is socialism.

    82. Re: Sears by Waccoon · · Score: 1

      Famously, one new executive at JC-Penny decided to finally get rid of perpetual 50%-off sales and offer no-nonsense pricing. It was a disaster for sales.

      Stupid as it may be, the reason why they do it is because it works.

    83. Re: Sears by ctilsie242 · · Score: 1

      Almost all European countries are "Socialist". China is socialist. Russia is socialist. They are running rings around the US when it comes to patents, innovation, products, R&D, and many other items. People can focus on doing cool stuff when they don't have to worry about a roof over their head, or if they will lose their live's savings if they get sick or injured.

      The pendulum is swinging. Capitalism has its place, but unchecked capitalism is just as bad as a complete command economy, because the invisible hand will always give the middle finger to people who are not well-heeled.

    84. Re:Sears by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      his thinking across American business is whats killing American retail. Why buy crap from Sears or Wall-Mart when I can get slightly better crap faster on Amazon? Or if you don't mind waiting, roll the dice and order your crap directly from China.

      In related news, China's dictator recently announced a crackdown on fraudulent Chinese sellers to overseas markets. If ordering direct from China stops being a risk, look out US retail! Even Amazon will be threatened.

      It's far more the shipping times than any "risk" from ordering direct from China. I get a dozen or more packages a year direct from China because of the significant price difference in certain areas. The problem is I have to accept that it will take a least 2 weeks and sometimes over a month to arrive.

    85. Re: Sears by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      I'm talking about "The Virtue of Selfishness", her attempt to be serious.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    86. Re: Sears by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Capitalism and Socialism are not exclusive philosophies. You can have both.

    87. Re:Sears by Zephyn · · Score: 1

      They presented themselves as a mid-range department store, but operated like one of those shady junk stores with "GOING OUT OF BUSINESS!" signs in their windows for years.

      Somebody (Not Necessarily the News I think) once did a fake commercial along the lines of "Going out of Business - 20th Anniversary Sale". The punchline at the end was: "We lost our lease.... but we're still looking for it!"

    88. Re: Sears by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      I love that quote. I often frame it in religious terms.

      Wonderland 6:17 "There's glory for you!"
      Wonderland 6:18 "I don't know what you mean by 'glory'," Alice said.
      Wonderland 6:19 Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. "Of course you don't - till I tell you. I meant 'there's a nice knock-down argument for you'!"
      Wonderland 6:20 "But 'glory' doesn't mean 'a nice knock-down argument'," Alice objected.
      Wonderland 6:21 "When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more or less."
      Wonderland 6:22 "The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
      Wonderland 6:22 "The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be Master - that's all."

      One of the most brilliant episodes of "Limitless" was where they redefined all the words and the episode was otherwise delivered straight.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    89. Re: Sears by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      None of your assertions are backed up by evidence. Capitalist countries win more Nobel Prizes, publish more science, and have more technical innovation. So socialism is not better at harnessing genius. If anything, socialism makes nepotism worse. Cuba is ruled by the brother of the previous leader. NK is ruled by the son of the last leader, and the grandson of the one before that.

      All of his claims are backed up by evidence. You can literally follow the inheritance path of many, many positions in not just US government and businesses but in other countries as well. Hell, the current US president only has money because of his father, which Trump has squandered mostly.

      Capitalism is thrown around a lot as some sort of panacea when most countries, including the US, aren't purely capitalist at all. Most of the US essential services are socialist. Again, same in most other developed countries. Of course there are outliers, but naming communist countries is just misleading. Or do you think communism and socialism are the same thing? Just FYI, the Nobel Prize came out of a country that is largely considered socialist.

      It's truly terrifying that you were modded up and just highlights the absolute lack of education and understanding people have today.

    90. Re: Sears by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No it isn't. Amazon accounts for less than 5% of the retail sales in the United States and only 10% of retail is done online.

    91. Re: Sears by redlemming · · Score: 1

      Capitalist countries win more Nobel Prizes, publish more science, and have more technical innovation.

      It depends entirely on how you define 'Socialist' and 'Capitalist'. A lot of that scientific and technical innovation is coming from European countries with nationalised healthcare and strong social safety nets. You'd probably have to count them as 'both'.

      Not really - that's a common misconception. Socialism "is a range of economic and social systems characterised by social ownership and democratic control of the means of production" (Wikipedia).

      i.e. Socialism is where the workers own the means of production (I believe that comes from Marx and Engels).

      That isn't particularly the case for European countries - Europe has roughly as many billionaires as the USA, and lots of wealthy people who are aren't quite billionaires - these people to a large extent control the means of production. Europe does have more people working for small businesses than the USA (Schmitt and Lane 2009), so here one could make a case that the employees are at least closer to the means of production.

      Nationalized healthcare and strong social safety nets are not indications of socialism. It's not the means of production that is controlled in most situations in Europe, it's the outputs of production that are taxed at high rates to provide the social safety nets - something rather different in an economic sense.

      It's also worth noting that several nations in Europe do not have nationalized healthcare in the sense of single-payer. I believe Holland and Switzerland fall into this category. This makes it even harder to generalize about the underlying system (though it's worth nothing that most European nations - including both of these - spend far less on healthcare than the USA and still get much better outcomes).

      Probably the best term for the European nations is "capitalist welfare state". The USA is also a capitalist welfare state, of course, but one with deeply entrenched special interest groups influencing the government in ways that create negative outcomes on many social health indicators for most of the population. These groups include a largely unethical legal profession, two corrupt political parties, governments that fund part of their operations through unethical means, the health insurance companies, and others.

      Often, describing the European nations as "socialist" is used in the USA as a propaganda weapon, intended to distract people from the corruption that is the true problem. Hence the importance of understanding the real definition of the word "socialist".

    92. Re: Sears by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

      Did you miss the part where I shot down your attempt to redefine socialism? Your retort is to agree that words mean what they mean?

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    93. Re:Sears by stoatwblr · · Score: 1

      It wasn't the offshoring that was the issue.

      There are many high quality tools made in china and conversely some US-made stuff is utter garbage (1970s cars being a glaring example(*)).

      The issue was to _deliberately_ choose to sell lower quality under the established brand name. Where the tools are sourced from is secondary to that decision.

      (*) An anecdote from my high school maths teacher back in the 80s - he worked as a production engineer in a UK-based heavy equipment manufacturer and had just finished designing the gearbox for a new series of road graders. Management decided that they needed to sell more parts and ordered him to change the quality of the steel in the gears so that the teeth would fail more often. He refused and resigned. The company is no longer in business, having gained a reputation for unreliable equipment.

    94. Re: Sears by stoatwblr · · Score: 1

      "the philosophies of Ayn Rand, "

      When you point out that she spent her last few years benefitting from state healthcare - and drew particularly heavily on it thanks to her lung cancer, Randites tend to get upset.

      They get even more upset when you point out that she died with over half a million dollars in the bank and she _chose_ to leech off the state to get that socialised healthcare she publicly despised.

    95. Re: Sears by stoatwblr · · Score: 1

      No,, amazon isn't one of the causes.

      The success of Amazon is one of the SYMPTOMS.

      Poor customer service is one of the primary causes and that starts at the top.

    96. Re:Sears by RespekMyAthorati · · Score: 1

      The company is no longer in business, having gained a reputation for unreliable equipment.

      Sounds like British Leyland.

    97. Re: Sears by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because that's not the way individual people work.

      You can't really apply economic theory designed for populations to individuals.Individuals are loaded with all sorts of biases, emotions, and a sense of "fairness" that would prevent us from just looking at the price.

    98. Re: Sears by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      I didn't redefine socialism. I pointed out the difference between Socialism and socialism *as did other people in the thread*.

      You are ignorant of the widespread other usage of the term socialism. But multiple people identifying the other usage of the word socialism shows by definition that the other usage is also common.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    99. Re: Sears by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

      Socialism is government control of the means of production. That's what socialism means. Anything else is, by definition, not socialism.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
  3. We just need to inject more money into the system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Trump should give everybody in America a million Trump-Bucks, then the problem would be solved.

  4. When You Have Companies Like Sears Holdings by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This sort of thing happens. Going to my local K-Mart is like returning back to the 90s, and there always seems to be more staff than customers...and do we really need 6 aisles stocked with toilet paper? Sears is a prime example of the old horse and buggy industry doing what they can to discourage the use of automobiles without every trying to adjust to changing times.

    1. Re:When You Have Companies Like Sears Holdings by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly. People will continue to make goods; people will continue to purchase goods; what happens in between I really don't give a shit about, never have. If you look at my stock portfolio, probably 40+ companies, you won't find a single retailer or restaurant. This thing could get messy and people may be displaced temporarily, but it will sort itself out. It may be an apocalypse for the people who are currently in retail, but for the rest of us, it's just another day.

    2. Re: When You Have Companies Like Sears Holdings by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What are you about two weeks away from retirement with your pension? Boomers, the idiot children of the greatest generation ever, handed everything and keeping it like spoiled children.

      When the wheels fall off the retail economy, and the number 1 employment position, truck drivers get replaced with self driving trucks in the next few years, I hope youâ(TM)ll enjoy watching from the sideline from your secured you spot in Costa Rica.

  5. So, things change? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Who could have guessed that the way things are 20 years ago aren't going to be the way things are in 20 years?

    I mean, that's never happened before.

    I gotta go out to the hitching post and clean up after my horse...

    1. Re:So, things change? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm still riding my dinosaur and I hitched it outside -- no need to clean up after your horse, Dino Dan ate it.

  6. Lather. Rinse. Repeat. by geekmux · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "...There are billions in borrowings on the balance sheets of troubled retailers...The debt coming due, along with America's over-stored suburbs and the continued gains of online shopping, has all the makings of a disaster."

    Thousands of balloon/ARM mortgages approved for unqualified borrowers also had all the makings of a disaster back in 2008 too.

    There's a common trait in the human race that spans thousands of years; a propensity to never fucking learn.

    And over-stored is right. It's ridiculous just how many damn choices there are within a mile-long stretch of suburbia. No wonder so many are closing.

  7. Boom times ahead by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Stores are suffering because real disposable income is dropping, while fixed costs are growing.
    Only easy credit will fix that, which is just starting, assuming no stock crash. The delay is because all those new jobs are either self employed cleaners or a shitty part time insecure min wage yob. History shows real estate should climb over the next 6 years before the mother of all crashes in 2022. Printing money then will fail, because 50% of teh stores customers took a 50% real spending cut. This indicates impuse buy stores will be hit the hardest.

    1. Re:Boom times ahead by rally2xs · · Score: 0, Troll

      Yeah, things are on the brink of getting dramatically better, I think.

      What the problem is right now is the hordes of people that are not showing up in the unemployment stats, but are nevertheless suffering in the job market. Those people that are on a couch, glued to a soap opera daisy chain all day, are there because their spouse, parent, or some significant other has a good jobs and will keep them there. And they're there because $7 or $10 an hour at the burger-flipping or big box retailer just isn't worth driving to.

      Now, if this tax cut can take place, things will change. Those people already working those burger flipping and big box retailer jobs are going to see a dramatic rise in the help wanted ads for manufacturers that are adding 2nd and 3rd shifts due to the dramatically lower corporate income taxes that allow those companies to make money with factories inside the USA. They're going to quit Mickey D's and Walmart, and go to work for the local small business with a lot of machines that need tending. Some will even train to be maintenance people, millwrights, etc. They're going to be making $25 / hr.

      Meanwhile, back at Micky D's and Walmart, they're going to be going out of their minds attempting to conduct business without those people that left. They can't get those people pryed away from their soap operas until they start paying some real money. So, the $15 / hr minimum wage will be obsoleted, by these companies raising their wages to $15 / hr in order to lure the less-needy off their couches. (We will then see if the Republican apocalypse that everyone is going to go out of business if forced to pay $15 an hour as a minimum.)

      As more and more factories are built because it's a profitable thing to do in the USA now, the factory wages will spiral up as the factory owners compete for the last welder or electrician or whatever in the area and the burger-flipping and big box retailing will spiral up as the factories draw off their help to work in even higher paying jobs.

      The Republican tax cut could do this, IF they maintain the 20% corporate tax rate AND they don't F around and delay it to 2022 or somesuch.

      Passing the Fair Tax could do it in spades, the economy would sprout rocket engines under the Fair Tax as manufacturing would be done in an income--tax-free environment in the only developed country on the planet where that could be done. Foreign business people would injure themselves in the stampede to build factories here in the USA. We would probably actually experience a fairly severe labor shortage, which would spiral wages further. We could probably actually allow more immigrants because we could put them to work and the country would prosper.

      But either way, it all depends on stopping the stealing, or greatly reducing it. Income taxes in any form are stealing, and the more stealing that goes on, the more the economy suffers.

    2. Re:Boom times ahead by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Stores are suffering because real disposable income is dropping, while fixed costs are growing. Only easy credit will fix that, which is just starting, assuming no stock crash. The delay is because all those new jobs are either self employed cleaners or a shitty part time insecure min wage yob.

      It doesn't have to be "easy credit," it could just be more disposable income for the middle class. A good way to do this is reducing their taxes. Granted, that tax revenue needs to be recouped, so maybe we tax the super-wealthy a bit more and treat capital gains as income for taxation purposes.
      Oh, whoops! That the opposite of what the current US government wants to do.
      We could have better jobs if say, there was more free job training, cheaper public college, and cheaper vocational training.

    3. Re: Boom times ahead by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      You didn't mention the estate tax repeal. Think of all the factories and jobs to be created when the new wave of Paris Hiltons arrive.

    4. Re:Boom times ahead by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wait... You want to use tax policy to discourage capital investment and reduce mobility of investment to its best use? And, how, exactly will that help you reach your Utopia?

      Community college where I live is nearly free, yet it seems mostly to be utilized as a way for fresh HS grads to justify not getting a job and continuing to live at home (although, CC is helpful to some - some students do figure out to study and be accountable for their own results, something that has largely disappeared from public K-12 education here except in the most elite public schools).

    5. Re:Boom times ahead by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You seem to have overlooked the robots that will be doing a significant chunk of the work.

    6. Re:Boom times ahead by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      It doesn't have to be "easy credit," it could just be more disposable income for the middle class.

      Not for the working class though. That would be corminizzem!

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    7. Re:Boom times ahead by Hognoxious · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Sounds a lot like trickle-down theory. Did I just get transported back to the 1980s?

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    8. Re:Boom times ahead by kilfarsnar · · Score: 1

      Now, if this tax cut can take place, things will change. Those people already working those burger flipping and big box retailer jobs are going to see a dramatic rise in the help wanted ads for manufacturers that are adding 2nd and 3rd shifts due to the dramatically lower corporate income taxes that allow those companies to make money with factories inside the USA.

      This is only true if tax rates are what is driving companies to move manufacturing overseas. I would be interested to see that demonstrated. I think that taxes are only part of it, while tariffs, cost of wages and environmental and labor laws make up another sizable part of the equation. Those are governed more by trade deals than tax policy. Even so, US taxes would have to be lower than those in Bangladesh (for example) to have an impact. And the difference would have to be greater than the difference in labor and regulatory compliance costs between the two countries. Again, I'd be curious to see that demonstrated.

      Passing the Fair Tax could do it in spades, the economy would sprout rocket engines under the Fair Tax as manufacturing would be done in an income--tax-free environment in the only developed country on the planet where that could be done. Foreign business people would injure themselves in the stampede to build factories here in the USA. We would probably actually experience a fairly severe labor shortage, which would spiral wages further. We could probably actually allow more immigrants because we could put them to work and the country would prosper.

      Has it been demonstrated that a sales tax can make up for the tax revenue lost by abolishing all other taxes? I'm not sure it has. Sure, there are theories but has it been done in practice?

      But either way, it all depends on stopping the stealing, or greatly reducing it. Income taxes in any form are stealing, and the more stealing that goes on, the more the economy suffers.

      How is a sales tax not stealing too? I have to buy things to be able to live. I must have food, shelter and transportation and the government would be forcing me at gunpoint to pay a tax. How is that not theft?

      --
      "What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
    9. Re:Boom times ahead by kilfarsnar · · Score: 1

      Wait... You want to use tax policy to discourage capital investment and reduce mobility of investment to its best use?

      Wait, you think that's what the finance industry does? Maybe it did at one time. But HFT doesn't give a fuck about any of that.

      --
      "What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
    10. Re: Boom times ahead by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bruce Bartlett says you're an idiot.

    11. Re:Boom times ahead by rally2xs · · Score: 3, Insightful

      No, I kinda ignore it 'cuz there's still a whale of a lot of people that traipse in and out of any US car manufacturer's factory in spite of the fact that they are some of the most automated factories in the country. So, it seems that they still need people for SOMETHING, implying that there's lotsa stuff that can't be automated. Yet. Sure, robots will do more and more, but I'm waiting for someone to show me one that can walk thru the factory, hear the bearings going bad in a 50 hp motor on a press about 25 feet up in the air, go get a lift and a spare motor, get up there and change it out, remove the old motor back to the shop and rebuild it with new bearings and maybe brushes, and put it back in stock as a spare for the next time. Find me a robot that can do that. There aren't any. There aren't going to be any truck driver robots that can jump out and change a flat on the inside dual, either, for a long time. People will always be necessary up until its so automated that we can all use personal slaves who are robots, and never again have to do a damned thing that we don't want to do. It may never be seen by anyone alive today, 'cuz that's still a lot of tech to be invented.

    12. Re: Boom times ahead by rally2xs · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Bruce Bartlett is a leftist shill whose opinions are manufactured to support whatever globalist / communist theory that the left thinks they need supported. The left especially doesn't like the freedom from governmental interference that comes with something like a Fair Tax, so he attacks and attacks it. He is simply wrong.

    13. Re: Boom times ahead by reanjr · · Score: 4, Insightful

      A guy who served under Reagan and Bush I is a "leftist shill"?

    14. Re:Boom times ahead by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's what contracting firms are for. If my work copier fails, I call the number on the site, a tech comes over and replaces what is wrong.

      This is why the concept of "NoOps" in IT is so popular. You can offshore your dev team, have a MSP handle your infrastructure, with the only physical things needed are essentially terminals and a router to your VPC. You can run a profitable business with far fewer people than before.

      That 50hp motor on the press? One call or web form, and a guy will be out in 30-45 minutes, shortly thereafter, the press is back in service. No need for maintenance crews.

    15. Re:Boom times ahead by nasch · · Score: 1

      Did you just make all that up, or do you have actual facts to support it?

    16. Re:Boom times ahead by werepants · · Score: 2

      Income taxes in any form are stealing

      Just like downloading music is stealing, right?

      Words have meaning. You're lying in precisely the same way the RIAA/MPAA does to try to support their campaign of bankrupting grandmothers. An income tax is an income tax. Stop playing word games to suggest that your desire to take less money from the wealthy and more money from the poor is somehow morally defensible.

    17. Re:Boom times ahead by werepants · · Score: 2

      Passing the Fair Tax could do it in spades, the economy would sprout rocket engines under the Fair Tax as manufacturing would be done in an income--tax-free environment in the only developed country on the planet where that could be done. Foreign business people would injure themselves in the stampede to build factories here in the USA. We would probably actually experience a fairly severe labor shortage, which would spiral wages further. We could probably actually allow more immigrants because we could put them to work and the country would prosper.

      This is a really amazing fantasy - sounds like the Fair Tax could cure cancer too, right? Here's my question: what evidence do you have that cutting taxes has ever had anything near that impact on any economy? During the 1950's, we had a top marginal tax rate of about 90%, and that's one of the most prosperous times in American history. We actually paid down the massive war debt thanks to those high tax rates, and also witnessed a widely distributed increase in wealth across our society.

      On the flip side, the Reagan tax cuts are about the closest thing we can compare to in the U.S. for the kind of cuts you advocate, and they didn't turn the nation into your libertarian utopia - they DID, however, manage to send our national debt skyrocketing again after several decades of decline.

      Either provide evidence to back up your economic fantasies, or stop making such ludicrous claims.

    18. Re:Boom times ahead by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Trickle down has never worked before, but hey, it will work this time for sure.

    19. Re: Boom times ahead by Big+Boss · · Score: 1

      These days, yes. Sad though it may be. Trump makes Reagan look positively communist.

    20. Re:Boom times ahead by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      During the 1950's, we had a top marginal tax rate of about 90%, and that's one of the most prosperous times in American history.

      This particular lie needs to die. The top rate was 90% ON PAPER ONLY. Due to deductions and credits and exemptions, the effective tax rate for the highest bracket of income earners was more like 35%. That's roughly what they pay today, due to fewer deductions - and we have much better enforcement now, too.

    21. Re:Boom times ahead by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Robots don't do that yet. But there are certainly systems (found via google search, nothing related to me) designed to hear that failing bearing and send out an alert, so that the repair tech on duty can drive out to the factory and do the required maintenance.

      The replacement of human labor is an incremental thing. Today it's automated monitors and a repairmen, next year it's automated monitors and replacement machines that can be automatically hot-swapped in until the broken machine can be repaired. The next iteration is when the broken machine is automatically shipped out to the repair company...

    22. Re:Boom times ahead by mentil · · Score: 1

      I had a roommate who worked at an auto factory. He had to quit when he almost sliced his thumb off. His job was to slice off plastic tabs from some plastic part. He admitted that the only reason those plastic tabs existed was because the union mandated they continue to be part of the manufacturing process so that a job would exist removing them. It was literal makework, enshrined in contract. Not saying all auto factory jobs are like that, it has to be just few enough that it's cheaper to keep the humans than to fully automate.

      --
      Corruption is convincing someone that the selfless ideal is the same as their selfish ideal.
    23. Re:Boom times ahead by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But either way, it all depends on stopping the stealing, or greatly reducing it. Income taxes in any form are stealing, and the more stealing that goes on, the more the economy suffers.

      How is a sales tax not stealing too? I have to buy things to be able to live. I must have food, shelter and transportation and the government would be forcing me at gunpoint to pay a tax. How is that not theft?

      This is an interesting point of view, this "taxes are stealing". Who is going to maintain infrastructure? Who is going to protect you against outside aggression? These things are what governments (among many other things) do. These things require resources.

      US infrastructure kinda reminds me of Soviet infrastructure. In the US nobody want's to pay for fixing roads, bridges, dams or levies; because they're not yours. In the Soviet Union, nobody wanted to fix kolkhoz's tractor, because it wasn't theirs. Opposite systems, same result.

    24. Re:Boom times ahead by werepants · · Score: 1

      This particular lie needs to die. The top rate was 90% ON PAPER ONLY.

      So what you're saying then, is that it isn't a lie? I never claimed what the effective rate was. The marginal tax rate was 90% then, which you don't dispute, even though the effective tax rate was indeed lower. Just as now, the top tax bracket is around 40%, and the wealthy still pay a lower overall rate (the top 1% pays something like 25% effectively). The point stands, though - higher taxes are demonstrated historically to be compatible with widespread economic prosperity, AND were used to pay down a massive war debt. The people suggesting that tax cuts for the rich are going to improve our economy or overall prosperity are either blatantly malicious or profoundly stupid.

    25. Re:Boom times ahead by stoatwblr · · Score: 1

      "I'm waiting for someone to show me one that can walk thru the factory, hear the bearings going bad in a 50 hp motor"

      You only notice that because you've been trained to notice it

      I've walked through a bunch of factories as an observer and noticed a ton of motors with bearings going bad - the people running the show have ALWAYS been surprised when I pointed it out. Sometimes I've been ignored and the motors invariably shat themselves a few weeks later.

      Noticing bearings going bad isn't difficult and you don't need a robot for it. Simple piezo sensors will detect it long before they're audible to a human _if_ the makers or maintainers can be bothered to fit them (the other ways of detecting them are looking for extra heat, power draw or decrease in RPM and I've seen them all in use from makers who care about such things)

      Automotive factories in the USA, EU and Japan have all had limits imposed on their automation by unions (yes, even in Japan). Robots are accepted in the dirty, dangerous or repeatable precision areas but people dug their toes in when they started shifting to the rest of the line.

      Worse, whilst unions are essential to protect worker rights, if they gain too much power then the people at the top start playing politics and force "make work" employment policies "to save jobs" which invariably result in the employer losing out to more efficient/better quality manufacturers - at which point _everybody_ loses their job, instead of just some people.

      As a result, the only way to "automate more" is to build a _new_ factory in a _new_ area and hire a _new_ workforce - which also means that _everybody_ loses their job in the old one. This is the primary motivation for building new factories in mexico, china and eastern europe, not cheaper labour. Inexperienced workers tend to turn out poor product for the first 4-5 years - that got proven multiple times in the UK when the government mandated during the 1960-70s that makers put factories in areas where the workforce had little experience assembling cars (This was done to "reduce unemployment" in those areas)

      The "highly automated" factory in Detroit employing 10,000 people (down from 25,000 in the 1970s) became a "very automated" factory in Mexico with higher output volume and higher build quality whilst only employing 1500 people. If forced to bring manufacturing back into the USA then carmakers will probably build an uber-automated factory in New Mexico employing fewer than 500 people. Each iteration allows fewer people to be employed even if supply lines become longer and thinner (but the supply chains are even more increasingly automated, therefore employing fewer people for more output)

    26. Re:Boom times ahead by rally2xs · · Score: 1

      Oh, the "people in charge" don't know about the bad bearings? You must mean the managers.... yeah, the managers don't know s***, but the journeyman factory worker does. Why they weren't fixing it I can't guess.

      As for automation, the bottom line is that they're still going to be employing some people. If it's 500 instead of 20,000, that's still 500 people. We'll make it up due to the overwhelming return of jobs from other countries if we just lower the damned taxes. The US taxes are why companies have fled the USA, not wages. If you study the Fair Tax, you find that their research pegged the US income tax burden at 22% of the selling price of anything built in this country. Meanwhile, building a car in this country takes 30 - 33 man-hours. Since the car companies were telling us that their cost per worker was $78 / hr in 2007 when they were going bankrupt, and wages have been stagnant, multiplying that out gives around $2500 of worker cost per vehicle, while for a $40K SUV, the tax burden is around $8,800. That's why the FairTaxers want to get rid of the income taxes, but even if we just lower the corporate income tax, that'll help. The ultimate key to putting rocket engines on the economy is abolition of the income taxes, but for now we need to take what we can get.

    27. Re:Boom times ahead by stoatwblr · · Score: 1

      "The US taxes are why companies have fled the USA"

      Most companies didn't "flee" the USA. They simply found that you can extract more value in the short term if you drop R&D, sweat your assets and buy in stuff from a 3rd party, then sell it with a markup.

      This has nothing to do with taxes and _EVERYTHING_ to do with the myopic focus on quarterly profits to the exclusion of everything else. It's a slightly larger shell game than day trading but has the same outcome (innovation is stifled, and without innovation you can only rest on your laurels for a short period unless you can rely on protectionism)

    28. Re:Boom times ahead by rally2xs · · Score: 1

      Yeah, there's all kinds of corporate sins of short term profit reigning supreme, as well as most businesses not leaving the USA. But, a whale of a lot of MANUFACTURING left the USA, and that's important because those are one of the big 3 - agriculture, mining, and manufacturing that produce real wealth. That makes them also capable of providing the best jobs. Many miners in W. Va. that Obama nuked with his extreme global warming agenda were making $95K a year. That's good money, probably equivalent to working 4 Walmart jobs at $11 / hr.

      But of those that DID leave, taxes were the biggest culprit. You can't have the gov't coming thru the door like Jesse James and demanding 35% of the profit when all the company has to do to avoid that is move out of the country.

      Our best move would be to stop taxing income in all its forms - individual, corporate, capital gains, self employment, alternative minimum, estate, gift, yada yada and replace them with the Fair Tax, which has a monthly "prebate" to keep from taxing the poor, who would just show up at a welfare office to recover the money you'd be stealing from them anyway, in order not to starve. The Republican's tax plan will help somewhat, in the manner of the Fair Tax, just less effectively.

    29. Re:Boom times ahead by stoatwblr · · Score: 1

      > Oh, the "people in charge" don't know about the bad bearings? You must mean the managers.... yeah, the managers don't know s***, but the journeyman factory worker does. Why they weren't fixing it I can't guess.

      You assume "factory" = full of mechanists (not operators). This is only a minority of the cases.

      In particular this was mostly garment factories and in one case the bearings were shrieking so badly you had to shout to be heard over it.

    30. Re:Boom times ahead by stoatwblr · · Score: 1

      You really are barking up the wrong tree on this, to the point of buffoonery.

      Company and personal taxation has nothing to do with industrial competitiveness. Look at Germany for one example.
      What makes the most difference is institutionalised corruption.

      The USA has amongst the lowest effective company taxation rates in the world and the highest protectionist trading barriers.

      It also has the worst healthcare availablity and population lifespan averages in the OECD - both stats are still falling.
      It is failing to maintain infrastructure and primary/secondary education for the general population is amongst the poorest in the world
      It has an increasing level of poverty, currently unmatched since the end of the 1930s depression, but still getting worse.

      It has a _myriad_ of damaging legislated monopolies (especially in the telecommunications sector(*)) which act as a handbrake on local economies as do the multitude of trading barriers the USA has erected over the years in an era when the rest of the world is tearing their ones down (here's a clue: "Free trade" works in both directions. At the moment the USA is screaming about that from the rooftops, demanding open access for its businesses in other countries, whilst preventing companies from other countries having the same open access into the USA)

      (*) all the CLECs are gone. AT&T may not sell phones anymore, but it has reassembled itself in ways the antitrust laws can't touch, without all the pesky universal service obligations imposed in the 1930s antitrust settlements. As for the US mobile market, that has no effective competition across most of the country.

      This has happened against a background of "lowering taxes" since the 1980s and at the moment USA company tax rates are the lowest effective level they've been for over 100 years. Coupled with that, personal effective taxation for the rich has declined radically - to the point where the number of loopholes enacted means that most of the USA Fortune 100 pay NO tax whatsoever and many of the rich pay an _effective_ rate of 1-2% at most. (forget marginal rates, what matters is the effective rate)

      There has been a political lurch to the right that's been going on since the end of the 1960s and accelerated markedly towards facism after 2001. The term "inverted totalitarianism" is worth looking up.

      You're living in a new Gilded Age, but without the increasing industrialisation and citizen participation in government which characterised the last one. Rather tellingly, the Progressive Reforms which undid many of the inequities of the Gilded Age are being deliberately destroyed for the benefit of a privileged few. Furthermore, over the last 70 years a particularly nasty and quite zealous religious sect has managed to insinuate itself into all levels of USA government and is now actively trying to tear down the constitutional barriers that were written to try and prevent any religious interests from achieving this kind of undermining of the secular state.

      As someone living outside the USA, your self-inflicted social problems, religious extremism and increasing parochialism provide me with amusement and increasing employment opportunities. Quite frankly after 60 years of the USA stomping around the world many of us are quite happy to kick back with popcorn and watch your country implode, however we'd prefer that the resulting mess didn't take the rest of the world down with it and we'd prefer someone sane was looking after the nukes.

      We are in the 3rd industrial revolution and you either need to adapt or become another footnote in history. Complacency and yearning for the old days are not an option. You are no longer the largest economy in the world and well on the way to becoming number three, nor are you the most politically influential country anymore and the mantle of 'most free country' left for other shores many years ago - The USA doesn't even make the top ten in most scales - and you're even down to #38 on the scale of human rights.

  8. Bricks and Mortar can't compete by Baron_Yam · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Here's the thing - I'm old. Not ancient, but middle-aged. So I'm probably not expected by younger people to be comfortable with the latest technologies and customs, right?

    Except when I'm buying things I check Chinese websites first, because the stuff I could buy from a local retailer is generally 1/3 the cost if I get it direct from China, and it's generally the same damn item, only with a lot of unnecessary middle-men removed from the equation. Cutting out a couple of warehouses, an extra trip on a truck, and a whole chain of office and retail workers saves quite a bit of overhead.

    For me that's usually just low end electronics stuff that'll fit in an international mail envelope, but there's all sorts of other stuff, too. Hell, you can get tailored clothing for the price of local off-the-rack stuff.

    Retail is having the same issue the cable television industry is having - the economics have changed and they haven't found a way to adapt. I don't need to drive to a big box store or a mall to pay 300% more for something when with a bit of patience it comes to my house for a lot less.

    1. Re:Bricks and Mortar can't compete by Mitreya · · Score: 3, Insightful
      It also kinda sounds like this is a "leveraged buyout apocalypse" problem that can affect non-retail companies just as easily.

      The root cause is that many of these long-standing chains are overloaded with debt -- often from leveraged buyouts led by private equity firms.

    2. Re:Bricks and Mortar can't compete by mjwx · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The main reason I buy online is that brick and mortar rarely stock what I want.

      I could go down to Curry's or M&S for something but chances are they aren't going to have it and if they do, its not in stock. So for things I dont need to measure, I'll buy online because they at least have it in stock. The big exception for me is clothing, but even that is changing.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    3. Re:Bricks and Mortar can't compete by 0100010001010011 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Except when I'm buying things I check Chinese websites first,

      Exactly this. A lot of companies didn't realize that I can cut out a lot of layers by just going to the country where they're making their goods.

      Most of my purchases fall into one of two categories: I need it soon or I'll play with it when I have time.

      So most of my shopping is Amazon or Aliexpress. In years past Aliexpress' orders would have gone to Radio Shack but they removed that part of their store a long time ago. Now I'll browse for something neat, order it and play with it when it arrives. I order Arduino Nanos by the 10 pack. It's not worth trying to do PCB development for a $3 one of them costs.

      For stuff like toilet paper or something I could use in a few days Amazon will have it to my door in 2 days.

      The end result is I end up buying a lot more local products. Saving money at Amazon and Aliexpress means I can go to local art fairs, stop by local shops and buy something a local craftsman made. The best knives I own have no brand name. They're some old guy that has no internet that has been making knives in his tiny rural house for decades. I am more than happy to give him money in exchange for a great product.

      If something is going to come from China there's no reason I should be paying Walmart's rent, taxes, and Walton's salaries.

    4. Re:Bricks and Mortar can't compete by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Retail is having the same issue the cable television industry is having - the economics have changed and they haven't found a way to adapt.

      The wounds of cable tv are self-inflicted. If they cut the reality show crap [Wild Alaska, Dirty Money, Honey Boo Boo, Jungle Survival, Fishing Alaska, Ancient Aliens, etc, etc,] they should be fine. Not an apt analogy.

    5. Re:Bricks and Mortar can't compete by MobyDisk · · Score: 5, Insightful

      BINGO. 10 years ago, online was often junk while retail was quality items. Now, retail sells the same garbage items that the online stores do. There's no differentiation any longer. You can see this when you go to sears.com or walmart.com and half the products are "online only." They are all trying to be Amazon.com. The retailers that survive will be the ones that stop trying to compete in the "race to the bottom."

      Sears is the my favorite example. People used to buy Sears appliances, even though they were overpriced, because Sears curated the models with the best reliability and offered longer warranties and local service. Now, Sears products are just rebranded versions of the mid-range to low-end items, they don't have better warranties, and service is now farmed out to 3rd-parties. If the item is 50lbs then you often have to mail it out for service. I am totally okay with paying 200% to get something that lasts twice as long. But so far, I don't know who offers me that any longer.

      Apple is one company that isn't competing in the race to the bottom, and is doing well with that approach.

    6. Re:Bricks and Mortar can't compete by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Retail is having the same issue the cable television industry is having - the economics have changed and they haven't found a way to adapt. I don't need to drive to a big box store or a mall to pay 300% more for something when with a bit of patience it comes to my house for a lot less.

      Businesses can only adapt so quickly because sudden, big reactions prompt panic from investors and that tanks the whole company--if they can't borrow money, they can't run.

      Example: here in Houston, the oil and gas industry has had multiple rounds of layoffs, even though oil prices stabilized shortly after the big crash two years ago. Why are they still firing people if they have settled? Easy, they never finished and it was part of the plan. If you needed to cut 20,000 workers, you can't do that in one day. The market will freak out as well the non-fired employees, who may leave in fear that the company will become insolvent (thus making it a self-fulfilling prophecy) or they will otherwise lose their job. Beyond that, the company misses the numbers and needs to hire...that's money that's been wasted in both the firing and the hiring; further, their ability to hire given that they just let 20,000 people go will be severely compromised.

      Furthermore, you can't just scale down operations in a single day and get rid of that many people. You need to train people to do different tasks, figure out where the duplication is, etc. If facilities need to close, that also takes more than 2 days to do.

      Instead, they lay-off a few thousand at once. Some may leave at that point and that helps the company tremendously. Then they wait a few months and do some more. More people may also leave voluntarily, solving some of the issue. They then layoff more a year later as planned. The business has time to adjust gradually and the market doesn't crush them in the process.

      Ok, that took more words than I expected. My point is this: retail has been established as it is for half a century. It's not simple to change their infrastructure and pricing models in short order or any order, for that matter. They can't very well say "We will cut distribution costs by eliminating the middle-man" because the middle-man doesn't want to be eliminated and the OEM finds him useful because they can deal with just him, not 400 smaller companies.

    7. Re:Bricks and Mortar can't compete by Luthair · · Score: 1

      What do you actually trust on alixpress? Personally I won't buy electronics due to fire risks, or buy items that touch food for obvious reasons.

    8. Re:Bricks and Mortar can't compete by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      You really shouldn't use Apple as your mark of quality. The majority of their products are under-performing and over-priced. A $2000 Macbook Pro has the same specs as a $600 PC. It's paying for a label, not for a quality product.

    9. Re:Bricks and Mortar can't compete by Bigbutt · · Score: 1

      Yea, I bought a nice 4k computer monitor from Taiwan. It was a LG that failed QC (possibly not black enough, up to 15 dead pixels, etc; I use it for programming so black isn't an issue and if you can find 15 dead pixels on the 4k monitor, I'll give you $20 :) ) so I got it for about a third of the price of an equivalent LG and got to watch it ship from Taiwan to the US and my door. It was well packaged so no damage the to monitor and it's almost 2 years now and it works so well that if it does fail, I'll immediately buy another. Reviews for the company showed about a 5 to 10% problem rate with the monitors and I was willing to take the chance.

      [John]

      --
      Shit better not happen!
    10. Re:Bricks and Mortar can't compete by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      because the stuff I could buy from a local retailer is generally 1/3 the cost if I get it direct from China

      And as long as more than one in three of them works you're coming out ahead!

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    11. Re:Bricks and Mortar can't compete by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      There was something on the radio about how online clothes retailers are starting to offer virtual mannequins that use your measurements to preview clothing and suggest the right size.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    12. Re:Bricks and Mortar can't compete by Baron_Yam · · Score: 1

      I'd rather not add to the local landfill if I don't have to, so if I was actually getting a 50% failure rate I'd stop shopping as I do.

      I started off with an attitude of only buying things that were inexpensive enough I wouldn't be too upset if they went straight from the mailbox to the bin, but I have yet to get anything faulty from China. More cheaply made than anticipated because I never saw the thing in person first, yes... but overall I have far more buyer's regret from local purchases than over stuff I've purchased online from China.

    13. Re:Bricks and Mortar can't compete by AmiMoJo · · Score: 2

      In the UK you have better rights when buying stuff online too. Due to "distance selling" regulations you have two weeks to return the item for any reason, or no reason. You just pay return shipping, unless it's faulty or not as described.

      Not many shops will let you return stuff for two weeks. Makes taking a chance on some Amazon or eBay item a lot safer, because if it does turn out to be total crap you are at worst out the shipping. And you can ship almost anything for under a fiver via My Hermes these days.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    14. Re:Bricks and Mortar can't compete by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      I'd rather not add to the local landfill if I don't have to

      I didn't know you lived in Africa.

      Others report it being worse, so I think you've been lucky so far.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    15. Re:Bricks and Mortar can't compete by pnutjam · · Score: 1

      Shhh...
      Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain...
      err.. it was Unions that killed Hostess..

    16. Re:Bricks and Mortar can't compete by pnutjam · · Score: 1

      Exactly, price used to be some indication of quality, but that is long gone. Discount retailers do tend to have special cheap and crappy items made for them, sometimes they look identical to the normal item.
      The best consumers can do is avoid bad retailers, buy cheap, and force companies to honor their warranties.

    17. Re:Bricks and Mortar can't compete by mjwx · · Score: 1

      Radio... now theres someting I haven't listened to in a long time :)

      The big problem with shopping for clothes online is that you need to know your own measurements. This is fine when ordering T-shirts (come to think of it, I haven't bought a T-shirt from a B&M store in a while) where all you're worried about is M, L, XL, 2XL and SM (Small Marquee) but for business attire, I need to know at a minimum my arm/leg length as well as my collar/waist, even more if I want made to measure.

      IIRC, you're also in the UK, I like buying from Charles Tyrwhitt but I can never remember my own measurements. They've just opened a new store near me though.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    18. Re:Bricks and Mortar can't compete by TheCastro1689 · · Score: 1

      Got any links to the Chinese goods? And the clothes?

    19. Re:Bricks and Mortar can't compete by SvnLyrBrto · · Score: 1

      Oh, they can compete. They just have to compete on customer service instead of price. Case in point: Apple retail, which have been the most profitable retail chain per square foot for what... a decade? Longer?

      Yeah, I can find a cheaper phone from some no-name vendor that drop-ships from china. But if the thing craps out on me, I'm just SOL. With Apple? I've had three hardware issues with iPhones that weren't my fault. (A flakey button on a 5, and I got bit by the 6s' battery issue twice.). Every time, I've walked in for my Genius Bar appointment, showed them the problem, and walked out with a new phone with the only questions asked being: "Do you have a backup of your data?" and "Would you like us to help set it up for you?".

      That's the sort of service that keeps me going back to the Apple store, even when I could technically pay less elsewhere. My time and a lack of aggravation are worth more to me, even if I pay a little more.

      --
      Imagine all the people...
    20. Re:Bricks and Mortar can't compete by 0100010001010011 · · Score: 2

      I've found that most Aliexpress shops will bend over backwards to accommodate you. It's usually just cheaper for them to send you another product than to deal with the fallout of a 'bad review'. (It also means the reviews are worthless since everyone just 5/5 and moves on).

      I had bad PCB on my CNC machine I bought, the vendor sent me an entirely new upgraded PCB off of nothing other than "This is broke."

      They're also catching on to the fact that brands and quality do matter. There have been a lot of new brands that have formed that only sell from a certain number of suppliers. Where the brands fail the internet is pretty helpful. Germany and Russia seem to also be huge buyers from Aliexpress so If I have a problem with a product like a 3D printer there's a good chance I can get help from others across the world that have a similar issue.

    21. Re:Bricks and Mortar can't compete by SvnLyrBrto · · Score: 1

      Oh yeah... and another big plus. The Genius Bay people LISTEN to me when I describe my problem and the troubleshooting steps I've already taken. They let ME guide them to my problem, and don't try to force me through the scripted "Are you sure it was plugged in? Have you tried rebooting it?", crap that most support types are limited to.

      --
      Imagine all the people...
    22. Re:Bricks and Mortar can't compete by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I do the same. Plus, its easier to find items that are on sale more than ever.

      For so long retailers were charging for things that were eventually found to be cheaper elsewhere. Guess what, the customer just changed where they got them now.

    23. Re:Bricks and Mortar can't compete by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not everywhere actually bothers keeping the electronics separate, and given the current common state of electronics recycling? I'd actually expect adding it to the local regular trash to be the ecologically better option. (No, this is not a good thing, especially since a lot of the materials could and should be salvaged.)

    24. Re:Bricks and Mortar can't compete by powerlord · · Score: 1

      Ran into this at P.C. Richards a bunch of years ago when I got a new Air Conditioner.

      The choices were a light cheap model from China, or a more expensive model (made with more metal that the salesperson claimed would hold up better) that was made in the US.

      We opted for the US made one (for a host of reasons), and its held up long past the cheaper model we installed in a different room.

      --
      This space for rent. All reasonable inquiries will be entertained at proprietors discretion.
    25. Re:Bricks and Mortar can't compete by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good luck forcing companies to honor their warranties. Court, even small claims, is to cumbersome to be of any real use, and Republicans are trying to limit even that through "tort reform." The best I've been able to do is make sure to purchase big ticket items with a good credit card and dispute the charge if they refuse to honor the warranty.

    26. Re:Bricks and Mortar can't compete by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1, Insightful

      The AliExpress sellers seem to have realized that people are generally okay if they get something that doesn't work as long as the problem is quickly rectified, so it's cheaper to cut manufacturing costs a bit and send replacements. In practice it's often the case that if the factory tests the board and it fails they just chuck it for all but the simplest fixes anyway, so really they are only out the cost of shipping.

      They are also less suspicious. A western eBay seller would want to know how you tested it and have it back for inspection to make sure you didn't blow it up. The Chinese sellers just take your word for it and ship another one, and it's probably fine for them because there aren't many people who bother to screw them out of a second spare board.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    27. Re:Bricks and Mortar can't compete by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      I get most of my clothes from Uniqlo and Muji, and I find their sizes are very consistent so once I know one pair of jeans fits I can buy more any time online. I'd actually visit those shops if they had some nearer to me, having said that.

      I imagine that in a few years 3D scanners will built into phones or at least cheap enough that people can just 3D scan themselves and have the retailer automatically select the correct size, and maybe even tailor the clothes a little before shipping.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    28. Re: Bricks and Mortar can't compete by reanjr · · Score: 1

      Businesses need to stop villifying cash reserves as lost opportunity. The growth model of entrepreneurship is damaging when everyone thinks finding new investors is the way to bootstrap a business or keep one running through tough times.

    29. Re:Bricks and Mortar can't compete by jimbolauski · · Score: 1

      I only go to a store to shop if I need it right away, everything else I get online. Buying online is cheaper, I don't have to drive anywhere, I don't have to wait in line for a price check on a $2 item, I don't have to search for the item I need, I don't have to interact with an acquaintance I see at the store, I don't have to put pants on... The benefits are endless.

      --
      Knowledge = Power
      P= W/t
      t=Money
      Money = Work/Knowledge so the less you know the more you make
    30. Re:Bricks and Mortar can't compete by k6mfw · · Score: 2

      Yes and no. There is advantage of buying retail as I can examine what I am buying, even small connectors. Yes, you can get stuff cheap on the internet but if it is a "cheap item" that is too cheap, then it becomes useless and goes straight to the trash (why waste time getting something you can't use?). On the flip side especially here in Silicon Valley, traffic is horrible including weekends. It takes ***one hour*** to go to each store (many traffic lights, negotiating parking) but stores don't seem to carry many different items like they use to (at least in my experience). Or there are lots of items but stuff I already have. Certain items I have to buy online. Frys for example doesn't seem to be worth my time, I use to regularly go there for connectors, parts, adapters, DVD printing labels (much of this they no longer carry). I've noticed Frys has become quite empty, easy to find parking but store has nothing

      Another is hostile business environment for retail stores. Example is Ham Radio Outlet on Lawrence recently closed, they were not losing sales (in the future they would as their customer base are retirees). Reason is landlord increased lease 20% and will do that every year because they want all those stores to go away so they can tear down and build latest paradigm of shops on first floor, parking underground, and condos above. but those shops will have to pay rates that are not sustainable for a retail or small business.

      --
      mfwright@batnet.com
    31. Re: Bricks and Mortar can't compete by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly.

      There is something fundamentally wrong when you need to borrow money to keep your 130 year old business running.

    32. Re:Bricks and Mortar can't compete by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I see Fedex and UPS trucks more and more often. I wonder, ..., could this mean more and more people are buying online?

    33. Re:Bricks and Mortar can't compete by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      You have a right to do that but be aware when you do that- the money you spend immediately exits the local economy and doesn't circulate the average 7 times. That has consequences which you may not like.

      However, it's almost the same for buying from walmart (some of the money recycles locally but most of it immediately leaves), and more true for Amazon than walmart.

      Spending for something like a barbershop almost completely returns to your local economy.

      Over time, the effect is to remove all wealth from economies, lowering the tax base, lowering services, reducing the opportunity for local businesses to start.

      The old pattern was you spend a dollar, and about 84 cents stayed local so it went something like $1, $.84, $.6x, $.4x, $.3x,$.2x,$.1x,$0.0x. This created about $3.50 in local jobs and tax base. Now the iteration is $1, (circulating in china except about $0.1 for your delivery).

      It's something to consider but really there is nothing you can do to change things. It's an unstoppable process. It will stop when labor conditions and compensation equal out globally. However, as in brazil, it may lead to increased danger to you and your loved ones as we divide (temporarily) into a society of haves and have-not's.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    34. Re:Bricks and Mortar can't compete by Baron_Yam · · Score: 1

      Two things:

      First, concentration of wealth means I was mostly making some Canadian or American insanely wealthy, now it's someone in China. I don't care where the billionaire lives any more than they care if I even exist.

      Second, there's the problem of the Tragedy of the Commons. If I play by the rules, I'm a sucker. Everyone else gets a higher standard of living while the local economy drains slightly more slowly on the back of my willingness to pay a premium for a service I don't need... but if I decide I don't care about supporting the local economy, my standard of living gets a boost while my actions are ultimately just a drop of water in the ocean.

      Individually, I have a lot more to lose than my individual effect on the communal economy is worth. Such issues can't be resolved by asking nicely, if we really care (as a society) we will require legislation at the national level to control the flow of capital.

      And eventually China will raise their own standard of living enough that they will no longer be less expensive. Globalism will ultimately level all playing fields, it's just going to be a really shitty ride to get there unless you're already incredibly rich.

    35. Re:Bricks and Mortar can't compete by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yep. Waaaaaay back in the early nineties savvy CEOs saw the writing on the wall and started loading these horses down with as much debt as possible. This was in an attempt to siphon off as much money as possible, using the then-healthy corporation as a form of collateral. Expansion, merger, whatever. Just come up with a plan that requires a loan and whip that horse forward and remember to over-pay your friends in that law firm and the guy with the construction company because you can always get a secret kick-back later.

      Fast-forward to today and the shareholders and creditors are left holding the bag.

      All this started back in the 1890's and it ran for over 120 years. This is the end of the Gilded Age. Mark Twain would be proud of us all.

    36. Re:Bricks and Mortar can't compete by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sizing is an issue. Just when you think you've gotten your measurements translated to a suitable size marking, you find some brand or type of clothing that assumes people are much smaller or much larger than what's standard otherwise. Then there are the things (shoes especially) where assembly variation is such that the stated size can be a full size or more off. I always buy shoes from the store, not online, because of that - must try on shoes to make sure the size actually works.

    37. Re:Bricks and Mortar can't compete by nasch · · Score: 1

      The big problem with shopping for clothes online is that you need to know your own measurements.

      Step 1: buy tape measure
      Step 2: look up YouTube video on how to measure yourself for clothes
      Step 3: measure (secure assistance from another human if needed)
      Step 4: write down measurements (wherever you will not lose them, perhaps Google Keep or similar)

      Then order clothes from wherever you want. Steps 1-3 can be replaced by going to a store and asking to be measured, though I don't know if they charge for that if you're not intending to buy something.

    38. Re:Bricks and Mortar can't compete by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Apple is one company that isn't competing in the race to the bottom, and is doing well with that approach.

      Except they cheaped out the mac mini because people were able to use it to do real work :D

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    39. Re:Bricks and Mortar can't compete by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yep. The looting of America has reached a very high level. And for the most part the people running the government are the experienced Wall Street looters who have already destroyed industry and retail.

    40. Re:Bricks and Mortar can't compete by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      However, as in brazil,

      As in Brazil what, asshole? You could as well said However, as in Appalachia,

      Go suck dick, hillbilly.

    41. Re:Bricks and Mortar can't compete by Whorhay · · Score: 1

      I recently purchased an anniversary gift online. I actually went to a local retailer to ask about what I wanted. I spent an hour at the store with a representative trying to get what I wanted. A week later I got a price estimate of $300. In the meantime I had looked on amazon and found what I wanted for as low as $20. The really low priced options struck me as being risky and since I didn't want the worry of having to do a return I went with a $100 option as kind of a middle ground hoping for good quality. So far so good, though I guess I'll find out for sure when she opens the box. I'm still a bit amazed though at the price difference between what I paid and what the store offered.

    42. Re:Bricks and Mortar can't compete by CrashNBrn · · Score: 1

      LG makes Sears Kenmore appliances. So you may as well just buy LG.

      Sears (especially in Canada) and other retailers in their range (c.f Canadian Tire) used to carry decent quality goods (even Lifetime warranted Tools) at a competitive price - I don't know if that's been true for the last 10-20 years. I imagine the downhill started when Walmart bought out Woolco, Zellers shut down etc.

      Shopping has never been particularly fun, but at least products being sold used to be vetted, Amazon, AliExpress and their ilk are like wading through a garbage dump trying to find a shiny nickel.

    43. Re:Bricks and Mortar can't compete by MobyDisk · · Score: 1

      LG makes Sears Kenmore appliances. So you may as well just buy LG.

      I can't speak for 2017, but as recent as 3 years ago, Kenmore used multiple companies, even within a single product line. The high-end washer might be an LG but the mid-range model, that looks almost the same, might be a Frigidaire. The repair techs know for sure, and sometimes they will tell you when they come to service the item. Often times the Kenmore product came with a better warranty or a few different features from the equivalent product made by LG/Frigidaire/whatever.

    44. Re:Bricks and Mortar can't compete by Big+Boss · · Score: 1

      Maybe, but my 10 year old Macbook Pro is running great. Can't say that about any of the cheaper laptops I've bought over the years. And when the GPU glitch came up, they fixed it, for free, even out of warranty. I even got a new battery out of it. I offered to pay for the battery, got a quote, they wouldn't take my money.

      Are the perfect? hell no. Are they a cut above Sears/Walmart/etc.. Fuck yes. Not that it's a high bar mind you...

    45. Re:Bricks and Mortar can't compete by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      https://www.thrillist.com/trav...
      7 Countries Where You're Most Likely to Get Kidnapped

      Brazil

      Around 1,000 kidnappings in 2012.

      Where you're getting kidnapped: Mostly in major cities like Sao Paolo and Rio de Janiero.

      Whoâ(TM)s getting kidnapped: Wealthy businessmen, their family members, and -- in an odd trend a few years back -- soccer moms. Or at least the mothers of professional soccer players. Tourists, for the most part, are left alone.

      Whoâ(TM)s doing the kidnapping: Mostly poor residents of the citiesâ(TM) notorious favelas.

      How they're kidnapping you: Unlike drug-motivated kidnappings, almost all abductions in Brazil are financially motivated. Which means if you're âoeexpress kidnappedâ and the abductors realize youâ(TM)re worth more than your ATM card, theyâ(TM)ll keep you until a ransom is paid.

      How to avoid it: Kidnappers admit to targeting people who are both well dressed and appear not to speak Portuguese. So instead of dropping $500 on that Gucci shirt, perhaps put it towards Rosetta Stone.

      http://articles.latimes.com/19...

      DUQUE DE CAXIAS, Brazil â" Cleiton, 12, used to steal from the stores in a shopping gallery near the center of Duque de Caxias, one of the grimy, violent suburbs on the sprawling northern outskirts of Rio de Janeiro. He belonged to the ragged legion of street kids who live by their wits and sometimes die by the gun.

      Cleiton's killers caught up with him one night last January as he slept on a sidewalk near the gallery. A boy called A.G., who knew Cleiton, tells the story in a few words.

      "He was sleeping," A.G. said, "and they filled his face with bullets."

      Cleiton's death was not an isolated incident. Hundreds of deprived and delinquent Brazilian minors are killed every year.

      According to people who monitor the situation, an alarming number of youngsters are killed by "extermination groups"--death squads bent on cleaning up crime-plagued areas.

      Death squads have been at work for years in Brazil, but concern has risen in the past year because of the number of youngsters being killed, not only in Rio but also in other urban areas, including Sao Paulo and Recife.

      ----
      You were saying Mr. Anonymous tough guy?

      Extreme poverty and lack of opportunity and social welfare programs means young children crime so common that death squads kill hundreds of them per year. Can you think what you have to be like to walk up to a sleeping homeless 12 year old and shoot them in the head without personal provocation?

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    46. Re:Bricks and Mortar can't compete by sjames · · Score: 1

      On more than one level. Beyond the debt that the stores owe for their own purchase, there's the malls themselves raising rent even as they lose more and more tenants. That even though the empty spaces actually devalue the property for the remaining tenants (people don't like to shop at malls where tumbleweeds blow through).

      That, in turn is driven by banks that can make more money either foreclosing of re-packaging the loan hot potato style than they can by working with the borrower to eventually pay it off. As soon as the rent offered goes down, they'll de-value the property and foreclose.

      But God forbid we should force the banks to do something economically beneficial to make their money.

      So there it is, over-leveraged stores renting from over-leveraged landlords beholden to over-leveraged banks that would rather be speculating in the stock market with other people's money anyway.

    47. Re:Bricks and Mortar can't compete by antdude · · Score: 1

      Which Chinese websites and how do you know their products aren't fake/counterfeits?

      --
      Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
    48. Re:Bricks and Mortar can't compete by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cutting out a couple of warehouses, an extra trip on a truck, and a whole chain of office and retail workers saves quite a bit of overhead.

      because the stuff I could buy from a local retailer is generally 1/3 the cost if I get it direct from China

      And do you see why the rich get everything now?

      You're willing to throw all of those other people under the bus just so you can penny pinch. Great for you. Hope the people that loose their lively-hoods and wind up homeless was worth your extra $2.00 saved.

      Only those who own the business benefit. Everyone else prays that they aren't in the next round of layoffs. Meanwhile everyone screams: "The idea that we have a work shortage is abusrd. We have a willingness to work issue." Wrong. The companies do whatever is in their self-interest, everyone else and even their own long-term futures be damned. Your statement is further proof that when push comes to shove, if they can save money by replacing their entire workforce with machines (or AI whenever that finally comes) they will do so without a care in the world. Worse, they'll be completely "justified" in doing so because of people like you.

      Having empathy makes an invisible hand, Lack of empathy makes an invisible finger.

    49. Re:Bricks and Mortar can't compete by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      BINGO. 10 years ago, online was often junk while retail was quality items. Now, retail sells the same garbage items that the online stores do. There's no differentiation any longer. You can see this when you go to sears.com or walmart.com and half the products are "online only." They are all trying to be Amazon.com. The retailers that survive will be the ones that stop trying to compete in the "race to the bottom."

      Sears is the my favorite example. People used to buy Sears appliances, even though they were overpriced, because Sears curated the models with the best reliability and offered longer warranties and local service. Now, Sears products are just rebranded versions of the mid-range to low-end items, they don't have better warranties, and service is now farmed out to 3rd-parties. If the item is 50lbs then you often have to mail it out for service. I am totally okay with paying 200% to get something that lasts twice as long. But so far, I don't know who offers me that any longer.

      Apple is one company that isn't competing in the race to the bottom, and is doing well with that approach.

      People used to BELIEVE they were better but that's because the average consumer was extremely uninformed about what they were buying. If the only place you can know about something is talking to a sales person in a store, especially where they are incentives, then you can assume they're wrong. In fact, you can just assume that anyone working in a retail store probably isn't the sharpest tool in the shed. Add in the massive amount of misinformation passed down by older generations and you have people paying 2 or 3 times as much for the same quality item. The number of old wive's tales that people still think are true is astounding.

    50. Re:Bricks and Mortar can't compete by fatwilbur · · Score: 1

      I've noticed the same trend in geographical availability of products or prices, or places that were for 'destination shopping'. A good example from the last couple of trips I took to major cities: The ladies want to hit some large and/or famous 'outlet shopping' area, claiming better prices or hard to get products.

      Every time I go there, my suspicions are confirmed. Due to the wonder of modern day logistics and free trade, I can get the same merchandise and the same or better price in my small town in a different country. It wasn't this case 20 years ago... The modern economy has eliminated the need to travel anywhere to get decent wares.

    51. Re:Bricks and Mortar can't compete by Bruce66423 · · Score: 1

      It's seldom in the bank's interest to go down the foreclosure route when that results in the destruction of the asset. What DOES make sense is for them to foreclose when an asset is in default - but still paying something and foreclosing will precipitate out the debt and leave a working, viable asset.

      The problem of course is that sometimes telling the difference requires local business knowledge, which it is expensive for banks to generate / keep. In effect the system is being destroyed by the strict application of its own logic!

    52. Re:Bricks and Mortar can't compete by stoatwblr · · Score: 1

      "Apple is one company that isn't competing in the race to the bottom, and is doing well with that approach."

      We buy a _lot_ of computers. Apples are the least reliable of the lot, usually lasting just beyond their warranty period.

    53. Re:Bricks and Mortar can't compete by stoatwblr · · Score: 1

      "The choices were a light cheap model from China, or a more expensive model... made in the US"

      Yes, but. how much less would you have paid for a more expensive model made in China?

      I'm not being facetious. The company made a deliberate decision to buy cheap chinese-made stuff, but there are plenty of well-made high quality items originating from china too.

      If you look inside your US-made item, how much of the componentry was made in china? How much do you rely on that vs the parts made in the USA and what would the consequences of failure of the US-made parts be?

      Bear in mind that "made in" labels are where the final substantive assembly is. I buy data safes (phoenix data safes) "Made in England" which are actually Korean fireproof safes, with the only english part being the wooden inner liner insert - that comprises about 5% of the total assembled cost. Guess which part is the lower quality/poorly engineered one?

    54. Re:Bricks and Mortar can't compete by stoatwblr · · Score: 1

      "Amazon, AliExpress and their ilk are like wading through a garbage dump trying to find a shiny nickel."

      Amazon and Ebay definiitly are(*), but Aliexpress appears to be actively curating their sellers.

      (*)Eg: Good luck trying to return faulty LED lamps bought on amazon when they fail 6 months down the track, even if they have a "2 year warranty". And that's quite apart from the sheer volume of counterfeit stuff on both Amazon and Ebay where the seller is gone 3 weeks later.

    55. Re:Bricks and Mortar can't compete by sjames · · Score: 1

      Part of the problem is that when the foreclosure leaves a viable asset, the banks tend to have terrible follow-through and so allow the asset to decay. That's why you see homes with trees growing out of the roofs and weeds for a lawn after they foreclose. Honestly, in such cases they would have been better off accepting even $10/month for a few years so that if they did eventually need to foreclose (once the market recovered a bit), at least they would have a livable property. The problem is that if they actually foreclose, they will list the theoretical never will get "value" of the property as an asset, even as it becomes a negative actual value due to the obligation to do a major renovation or tear down once the property is condemned. Naturally (because banks make terrible neighbors but have armies of lawyers), they will hold the property in it's distressed condition even as it pulls down the value of neighboring properties until the market heats up enough that someone will be willing to buy the property and tear the structure down.

      That logic applies to practically any property, particularly in cases where the market is currently depressed. They could do better overall if they took a long view of value, but big business in the U.S. can't see past next quarter.

      Perhaps if the foreclosure frenzy was cooled by properly punishing them for the robosigning and for foreclosing on properties they didn't even hold a loan on, they might think a bit harder. Quite frankly, their behavior isn't fully explicable without assuming a certain amount of enjoyment derived from punishing people.

  9. Stores are like cable tv by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Too many choices when most want only a few.

  10. 3000 net closings is not an apocalypse by guruevi · · Score: 3, Interesting

    So 6000 people lose jobs, across the nation thatâ(TM)s not that bad especially given that most of those can easily find spots in other retail stores.

    The problem is lack of service, how many times can you try to go to Sears only to find a long line at the single cashier and nobody to help you with anything. Then whenever you have a $5 discount, the entire companyâ(TM)s management needs to be involved in approving it. Then returning it is an entire level of Danteâ(TM)s Inferno unto its own.

    Newegg/Amazon will ship you at the discounted price and if youâ(TM)re not happy with it take it back no questions asked.

    --
    Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    1. Re:3000 net closings is not an apocalypse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      3000 net closings is not an apocalypse...So 6000 people lose jobs, across the nation...

      I wasn't aware that every fucking store held a total of two jobs.

      And the "new math" generation wonders why the fuck we constantly mock them...

    2. Re:3000 net closings is not an apocalypse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Newegg/Amazon will ship you at the discounted price and if you're not happy with it take it back no questions asked.

      Not sure about Newegg, but I hear that Amazon does "no questions asked" return on behalf of their sellers and auto-charges them for return label.
      It's not exactly a long-term sustainable model, and it may stop when Amazon sellers go out of business (but retail stores will be dead by then).

    3. Re:3000 net closings is not an apocalypse by Anubis+IV · · Score: 3, Informative

      It was 6800 stores, not 6800 people, and many of the ones being mentioned were department stores (e.g. Macy’s, J.C. Penny, etc.) that could easily be employing hundreds of people apiece, so we’re not talking about just 6000 people. Even places like American Apparel, which is closing all 110 of its remaining stores, averaged about 22 employees per store. The Mom & Pop place my wife works (which is thankfully doing quite well, since they depend more on service than sales) only has two people in the front at any given time, but between people in the back, support staff, and people not scheduled to work on any given day, they actually employ around 10 people, which you’d never realize by just walking in.

      And the trend towards closures has been rising in recent years. The linked Wikipedia article mentions that between 25% and 50% of America’s 1200 malls are expected to close within the next five to six years. Sears has closed nearly 2000 stores in the last few years. Kmart has closed about 1500 in the last decade, with more to go.

      Suggesting it’s just 6000 people is a gross underestimation.

    4. Re: 3000 net closings is not an apocalypse by reanjr · · Score: 1

      It's the retailer's responsibility to price their items accordingly. If you provide great products, you won't get costly returns and you can sell at low prices. If you have shit products or shit fulfilnment, you've gotta pay for your fuckups.

    5. Re: 3000 net closings is not an apocalypse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How many people work at those stores? Two? Heh. Maybe at a literal mom and pop shop.

      Direct and indirect job loss of mass store closings is probably a bit more substantial. Imagine the satellite jobs which a retail outfit needs during its lifetime: warehousing, shipping, landscaping, construction, facilities maintenance, etc etc.

      A significant downturn in retail could start a real snowball effect.

    6. Re:3000 net closings is not an apocalypse by Gavagai80 · · Score: 1

      Yes, a lot of people are losing their generally horridly unpleasant retail jobs. And the unemployment rate is at a historic low. If these were fun jobs being lost and replaced by unpleasant ones I'd see cause for concern, but no kid says "I wanna grow up to work retail." The people losing their jobs are probably better off where they end up.

      --
      This space intentionally left blank
    7. Re:3000 net closings is not an apocalypse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >Newegg/Amazon will ship you at the discounted price and if youâ(TM)re not happy with it take it back no questions asked.
       
      minus a hefty restocking fee or in the case of Amazon a hefty membership fee. Even if the merchandise was faulty. Retail outlets will give back every penny.

    8. Re:3000 net closings is not an apocalypse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Whoosh!

    9. Re:3000 net closings is not an apocalypse by Anubis+IV · · Score: 1

      So, a few thoughts:
      1) Most people in retail aren’t doing it as a career. They’re doing it as a way to make supplemental income, as something to do over the summer, as something to put themselves through college, or as something to hold them over between jobs. All of those people will likely find better jobs later, regardless of retail being around, but having that retail job in the meantime allows them to avoid student loans, avoid having to scramble to put food on the table, and avoid being left behind by friends who can afford the new Xbox. Having easy access to low-skill jobs is a good thing.

      2) The “unemployment rate” calculation has been modified over the years, with the new methodology tending to produce significantly better looking values. I’m fine with either methodology, so long as you stick to just one when making comparisons to previous years, since that’s the only way to have an apples-to apples comaprison. When you actually do so, you’ll see that, no, we’re not at a historic low.

      3) There isn’t evidence that these jobs are being replaced by others. Rather, these people are simply not working (since the pay was supplemental to begin with, the loans were easier to find than the work, or they could stretch their emergency fund out longer to cover job loss), which in most of those cases doesn’t get reported as unemployment according to the new methodology, hence why you may have thought as you did. While I’m fine with the new methodology, that is one of the ways that it has the potential to mislead people.

      Mind you, I’m fine with malls going bust and most of retail dying out, but let’s not stick our heads in the sand and pretend that there are no downsides should that occur. Nor should we lie to ourselves about the benefits retail provides to people, particularly people in transitional phases of life.

    10. Re:3000 net closings is not an apocalypse by guruevi · · Score: 1

      So will Amazon/Newegg, if they don't which Newegg sometimes tries, I threaten to cancel my credit card charge, as I do in a regular store.

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    11. Re: 3000 net closings is not an apocalypse by Mitreya · · Score: 1

      If you provide great products, you won't get costly returns

      Unfortunately, that's not how it works in real life.
      Problem is not a return/replace/faulty product cases.
      Problem is in return categories "Don't want it anymore" or "Ordered by mistake". Shouldn't be the retailer's fault if your return falls into that category.

    12. Re:3000 net closings is not an apocalypse by stoatwblr · · Score: 1

      Is the unemployment rate "at a historic low" because people are genuinely finding employment?

      Or is it like that because it's become hard to get unemployment benefits and keep on them if you can't find a job?

      It's most certainly the latter in the UK - and people are ending up on horrific "zero hours contracts" - where they might get a couple of hours work per week.
      That's nowhere near enough to pay bills, but it allows the government to classify them as "employed" even if "zero hours" really does mean _ZERO_ hours.
      The compounding part of that is that people are working 3 or more such contracts, still getting nowhere near enough hours to actually survive, but that is being classified as 3 or more jobs.

      When you start asking hard questions such as "full time equivalents", the employment stats suddenly start being impossible to get hold of, with regional governments either stating they don't collect that information or "commercial sensitivity"

  11. We need showrooms not stores. by jellomizer · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I think the biggest change is that we are no longer really looking for stores, but showrooms. We need a place where we can go and look at the products, touch them, see if they do what they are meant to do. Then we can buy them online. These showrooms may have some small stock but their revenue will be from renting space to the company to showcase their products.

    --
    If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    1. Re:We need showrooms not stores. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's kind of what Best Buy's been doing. They figured out the showrooming effect and now lease floor space for branded kiosks that feature that company's products. It's actually not a bad deal to be honest. I can go in and see a whole host of Samsung devices in one location. The added benefit is now Best Buy's pricing has adjusted to be more in line with deals I could find online.

    2. Re:We need showrooms not stores. by IWantMoreSpamPlease · · Score: 1

      Ask the Gateway stores how well that worked out for them...

      --
      So rise up, all ye lost ones, as one, we'll claw the clouds.
    3. Re:We need showrooms not stores. by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      I can go in and see a whole host of Samsung devices in one location.

      What's more, they can see you!

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    4. Re:We need showrooms not stores. by AmiMoJo · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I've been comparing Japanese retail to UK retail for years and they seem to have solved a lot of the problems that making shopping in the UK a generally crappy experience.

      Their range is as varied as online retailers, and they usually have what you want actually in stock. You get to make a genuine choice of which model you want, and then they have it in every available colour as well. I'm not sure how they do it, but it's not like the UK where they generally have two or three options max, and one of those is special order, and you can have any colour as long as it's black.

      And this applies to retailers large and small. While the smaller shops have less variety, when they do carry something they carry the whole range.

      The prices are fairly competitive with online too. You can usually save a few yen online, but of course there is also postage. And to compete with that the shops offer local delivery within the hour - a guy will turn up on a scooter with your item. But you actually want to go to the shops, where they treat you well, have plenty of staff on hand and there is loads of other stuff like high quality but fast food.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    5. Re:We need showrooms not stores. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If I go to the trouble of putting on some pants and getting in my car to go look at and touch a product in person, I'd better be able to buy it and take it home right then. I don't want a showroom for something I have to wait to have delivered.

    6. Re:We need showrooms not stores. by bjdevil66 · · Score: 1

      Gateway's problem wasn't its business model; It was their complete lack of scruples. Gateway was a dirty company that tried to screw over small business owners with dirty dealing, etc. The world is a better place not having to deal with Gateway.

    7. Re:We need showrooms not stores. by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      There was a Gateway store. Not a gateway section in a showroom.
      By the time we had the Gateway store. Gateway was already uncool so it never got much attention.
      Apple can get away with its own store because Apple is still an attractive force by itself. If Apple tried to make an Apple Store back in the mid-late 1990s it would had failed. Because back then Apple products were uncool.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    8. Re:We need showrooms not stores. by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      As I stated they may have some supplies for purchases. But the showrooms business model isn’t pushing out items but renting space to display them.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    9. Re:We need showrooms not stores. by drew_kime · · Score: 1

      There used to be a chain sort of like that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... About a third of the store would be showroom, the rest would be warehouse. You find what you like and pick up a card from the display with a UPC code on it. Take the cards to the front where they scan and pull from the warehouse.

      --
      Nope, no sig
    10. Re:We need showrooms not stores. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "We need a place where we can go and look at the products, touch them, see if they do what they are meant to do."
      The "Best Products" Model. (Not "Best Buy"...). They had these huge warehouses with Showrooms up front, with one of every item displayed. You could check out a Microwave Oven or a Fishing Rod, place your order at a counter, and then wait in a long line until what you ordered was delivered via conveyor belt by the Exit. You could also order from a Catalog from home or at the warehouse, and have it delivered. In-Store "Leakage" was minimal.
      They went out of business just as the commercial Internet was catching on. Note that this wasn't just regular Consumer stuff; some in-store Jewelry stores sold Rolexes. Some of the stores around here were Architectural wonders, and were later bought up by Fry's, where Shelves leak like a sieve, and Apple Gear is locked up in cages. (Fry's started out selling Groceries, and different kinds of Apples.)

      This Showroom Model is actually quite old, and was proposed by Bellamy in his Utopian novel "Looking Backward" in 1888. Stores would just exist for the display of Goods, and "Middlemen" cut out as much as possible, with Customers dealing directly with the Manufacturers.

    11. Re:We need showrooms not stores. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Posting as anon because I've already modded through this thread before noticing this comment, but a lot of those things you're noting about Japan is a product of cultural differences--some of the expectations will get modified by where you are, and outside of the major cities it may depend a lot on if somebody's recently turned up for the same model+color you want. You can generally expect the main Tokyo and Osaka-Kyoto locations to have backstock, if it's something that anybody will have; I've shopped a few stores where you do have to ask around a bit, but they will help you find the person who can get you hooked up with what you want.

      Oh, and when you have to do that? It's a not at all a frustrating experience, particularly since they're very nice and polite, and try to get you through quickly. I had to try several parts of the store--but I understood why each section, and each stop in my quest knew both what their section's stock was, and where the next most likely location to check for it was. (Weirdly enough, I ended up taking to the hidden-away department that usually handles shipping things to customers outside of Japan, and they had what I was after, and they generally don't get much chance to talk to foreign customers.)

    12. Re:We need showrooms not stores. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Err, Gateway is still around. They are part of Acer these days. Back when they were independent Gateway for business was also better to deal with than Dell as you could bypass the scriptmonkeys at Gateway. Gateway would listen to you and just send a replacement part or machine. Dell sucked. I ended up sending our accounting pit bull after Dell for lousy service (yes, we followed all your instructions, no the part you sent didn't fix the problem, send us another PC or else).

  12. How about small nimble businesses by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2

    I know I run a small soda fountain pharmacy and I find that my customers (which cross nearly all age and racial categories) seem to prefer our knowledgeable and caring staff that somehow provides more service while charging less. Maybe consumers are learning that big box stores don't actually care about them. Just my perspective.

  13. Re: We just need to inject more money into the sys by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What's the ratio of Trump Bucks to Stanley Nickels?

  14. it's a temporary gap. by pezpunk · · Score: 4, Interesting

    there is a tremendous amount of real estate consumed by retail outlets, which frankly are of far diminished use than in previous decades. if someone can order something on Amazon and get it delivered to their door in a day or two, there's little reason to get in the car and drive to a store. this works well for a huge chunk of your average person's shopping.

    in terms of the employment impact: those affected skew young or low income. and the jobs aren't merely shifted to a different country or location -- most of them are no longer necessary at all. for now, at least, most warehouses and shipping hubs rely on human labor, but that work represents a small fraction of the manpower a proportional retail store would have employed.

    it's a problem, but in my opinion, likely a short-term one. i foresee a dramatic upswing in remote, online employment across the board, as online communication and interaction tools mature, and a willing and capable labor pool emerges -- a pool of young people to whom this technology is as effortless and natural as walking.

    an optimist might even suggest that this would allow people to more easily aspire to niche occupations and careers that they would have otherwise been unlikely to achieve due to geography. In the past, if you wanted to work in the pinball industry, you had to live in Chicago. If your passion was recording music, you'd almost have to move to Los Angeles or NYC to make a living at it.

    Today, there are artists who draw playfields for Stern Pinball without setting foot in Chicago. and my brother does mixing and mastering remotely over the internet for people all over the world.

    just like those brick and mortar sales, the job market isn't going away. it's just going online.

    --
    i could live a little longer in this prison
    1. Re:it's a temporary gap. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      there is a tremendous amount of real estate consumed by retail outlets,

      Which reminds me of Borders. I used to love getting books there - mainly because they kept mailing me 50% off coupons.
      I do remember wondering why they had aisles so wide you could drive an F150 down them. I think some combination of expensive stores and selling books for 50% off is what did them in.

    2. Re:it's a temporary gap. by pezpunk · · Score: 1

      totally. and when you did drive your F150 down the aisle, they got mad! total hypocrites.

      --
      i could live a little longer in this prison
    3. Re:it's a temporary gap. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      thanks for the long blathering post, captain obvious. You've truly contributed today.

    4. Re:it's a temporary gap. by pezpunk · · Score: 1

      i'm serious! this internet thing could turn out to be something important!

      --
      i could live a little longer in this prison
    5. Re:it's a temporary gap. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      it's a problem, but in my opinion, likely a short-term one. i foresee a dramatic upswing in remote, online employment across the board, as online communication and interaction tools mature, and a willing and capable labor pool emerges -- a pool of young people to whom this technology is as effortless and natural as walking.

      an optimist might even suggest that this would allow people to more easily aspire to niche occupations and careers that they would have otherwise been unlikely to achieve due to geography. In the past, if you wanted to work in the pinball industry, you had to live in Chicago. If your passion was recording music, you'd almost have to move to Los Angeles or NYC to make a living at it.

      Today, there are artists who draw playfields for Stern Pinball without setting foot in Chicago. and my brother does mixing and mastering remotely over the internet for people all over the world.

      just like those brick and mortar sales, the job market isn't going away. it's just going online.

      We've already seen this with jobs moving to India and such. People like your brother are specialists who must be damn good and have the reputation to match in order to do what they do remotely, meanwhile the sort of people who are only qualified to work in retail are rather screwed.

    6. Re:it's a temporary gap. by Ichijo · · Score: 2

      there is a tremendous amount of real estate consumed by retail outlets

      That's absolutely true. We force brick and mortar retailers to build more parking than the market thinks is necessary, and we mandate minimum setbacks, maximum floor area ratios, and height limits, and if stores don't meet these arbitrary requirements that drive up their building costs and property taxes, we don't let them build at all.

      In the end, the only retailers who can afford to navigate these regulations are big-box chain stores who are able to woo local governments into giving them massive tax breaks. And then we wonder why cities have no money!

      Online retailers can build in small towns where land is cheap and the people are just glad to have the jobs. Then we subsidize their shipping costs. So the decks are stacked against brick and mortar stores.

      The death of retail isn't happening naturally. We are causing it ourselves. Once again regulations are killing commerce just as it did in Soviet Russia. We have met the anti-capitalists and it is us.

      --
      Any sufficiently unpopular but cohesive argument is indistinguishable from trolling.
    7. Re:it's a temporary gap. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's absolutely true. We force brick and mortar retailers to build more parking than the market thinks is necessary, and we mandate minimum setbacks, maximum floor area ratios, and height limits, and if stores don't meet these arbitrary requirements that drive up their building costs and property taxes, we don't let them build at all.

      I encourage you to look up pictures of Kowloon from before China tore it down. Without those godless commie job-killing regulations, that's what happens.

    8. Re:it's a temporary gap. by pezpunk · · Score: 1

      that's a deeply stupid comment and i'm embarrassed for you.

      --
      i could live a little longer in this prison
    9. Re:it's a temporary gap. by Ichijo · · Score: 1

      I see what you mean. Look at this depressing place. It's such an ugly street because it was built before minimum setbacks, maximum floor area ratios and so on. And people are walking in the street, so you can bet people are getting mowed down by cars every day. Also you can't fit a 40-foot fire truck on this street so the whole place is a massive fire hazard! It's a good thing we've outlawed building such places like that anymore, because with all the carnage, no wonder everyone looks so sad.

      So I stand corrected. Thank you for educating me. I feel more informed already!

      --
      Any sufficiently unpopular but cohesive argument is indistinguishable from trolling.
    10. Re:it's a temporary gap. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Kowloon is still around, that's like saying China leveled Brookyln. Maybe you mean Kowloon Walled city? And, yes, that was partly a lack of regulations, but it was a unique situation in many ways.

    11. Re:it's a temporary gap. by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      In the end, the only retailers who can afford to navigate these regulations are big-box chain stores

      Which completely fails to explain the numerous small storefronts I keep passing where I live. The malls are suffering, but most of the small buildings on the street seem to have some sort of going concern.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    12. Re:it's a temporary gap. by Ichijo · · Score: 1

      Are those storefronts new, and each in a separate building (not one big strip mall), and sitting on land that isn't close to worthless?

      If so, it would be interesting to learn how they managed it.

      --
      Any sufficiently unpopular but cohesive argument is indistinguishable from trolling.
    13. Re:it's a temporary gap. by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      They tend to be in rows on the city streets. Every so often, there will be a block that's small commercial. I don't know the details, but these stores do stay in business.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    14. Re:it's a temporary gap. by Ichijo · · Score: 1

      Try building a new one. The existing ones violate a number of ordinances that new ones must follow.

      --
      Any sufficiently unpopular but cohesive argument is indistinguishable from trolling.
    15. Re:it's a temporary gap. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      there is a tremendous amount of real estate consumed by retail outlets, which frankly are of far diminished use than in previous decades. if someone can order something on Amazon and get it delivered to their door in a day or two, there's little reason to get in the car and drive to a store. this works well for a huge chunk of your average person's shopping.

      in terms of the employment impact: those affected skew young or low income. and the jobs aren't merely shifted to a different country or location -- most of them are no longer necessary at all. for now, at least, most warehouses and shipping hubs rely on human labor, but that work represents a small fraction of the manpower a proportional retail store would have employed.

      it's a problem, but in my opinion, likely a short-term one. i foresee a dramatic upswing in remote, online employment across the board, as online communication and interaction tools mature, and a willing and capable labor pool emerges -- a pool of young people to whom this technology is as effortless and natural as walking.

      an optimist might even suggest that this would allow people to more easily aspire to niche occupations and careers that they would have otherwise been unlikely to achieve due to geography. In the past, if you wanted to work in the pinball industry, you had to live in Chicago. If your passion was recording music, you'd almost have to move to Los Angeles or NYC to make a living at it.

      Today, there are artists who draw playfields for Stern Pinball without setting foot in Chicago. and my brother does mixing and mastering remotely over the internet for people all over the world.

      just like those brick and mortar sales, the job market isn't going away. it's just going online.

      You're making HUGE assumptions that there will be enough of these new online jobs and that they will pay well enough for people to live. Hell, of the two examples you mention are both already in relatively low demand, especially when compared to general retail, and pinball is a dying industry itself just like arcades.

      I'm not sure why there's such resilient delusion about what's coming but it's an interesting phenomenon by itself. People pick and choose facts from the past and ignore the counter points that pulled us out of the original problems. I mean, yeah, maybe we'll enter into another massive world war and the people losing jobs will have something to do but even warfare has changed. We need less jobs to do the same amount of work. Even when new industries start, they employ less people than in the past while globally our population continues to grow. We have an under-employment problem RIGHT NOW and we're 10-20 years from the loss of the trucking, taxi, delivery, retail, and food service industries as we know them. And this may be an unpopular opinion but it's hardly the cream of the crop in those jobs as it is. Most of these people will not be capable or will to make the jump to the tech side of those industries. Even then, how many jobs will we actually need? There's decent demand in IT right now and that will keep up for a while but even the "easy" jobs there will be automated. Generally speaking, common development problems have been solved and the difficult problems simply can't be solved by average people. It's your top tier talent that drive innovation and solve the hard problems. Professional sports is a decent analog. Plenty of people can play sports, many even very well, but it's only a small number that reach that "pro" status. That same model is coming for every industry.

    16. Re:it's a temporary gap. by pickin_grinnin · · Score: 1

      That's not what did them in. I worked for Borders during the period when they suddenly started growing, through when things started falling apart. I was also very much aware of the internal conversations regarding the growth of the Internet and what to do about potential competition between a (then small) Amazon. Without getting into a long, rambling story, the fall of Borders largely happened because the chain was sold to KMart and more or less merged with Waldenbooks. The management team that had made Borders a success left and a number of Waldenbooks executives more or less took control, with their mall-bookstore mentality. Everything that had made Borders successful went away, and they went from being far superior to B&N to being a poor carbon copy of them. An Internet plan was in development really early in the game, back when Amazon had just started. Borders even did early sales via Gopher pages, even. When the Waldenbooks people were moved into Borders management, they scuttled the plan entirely. Year later they (ironically) ended up doing online sales via Amazon. If they had simply followed through on their initial plan, they would have been the first to do Internet book sales in a large way. Instead, they canceled the Internet plan, dropped the number of titles in each store to B&N levels (half or less of what most stores had before that), started rebranding mall bookstores as Borders Express, and lost everything that made them special. That drove customers away in droves. They had required book knowledge tests for new employees in the past, and were able to keep knowledgeable employees long-term while paying barely above minimum wage, partly by being very pleasant employers, and partly by offering a lot of little perks that the employees enjoyed. They cut out all the little perks and drove away the long-term employees, leaving people who didn't know a lot about their products, which drove away much of the rest of their customer base. They kept expanding the number of stores despite all the monetary losses, and the whole thing eventually just crumbled away beneath them. In the end, it was a textbook case of what happens when the original founding family of a successful store chain decides to cash out.

  15. Retail experience by grumling · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Apple stores are doing just fine. But Apple stores are about the experience, much like a movie. Going to Sears or Target or Walmart is like taking a dump. You have to do it so just get it over with and get back to your life.

    One reason restaurants are still hot is because they can be an experience. If more small retailers began to understand that it's not about inventory it's about the experience maybe we can get things turned around. Adding things like customer education (advice on accessories for clothing, for example), and of course competent employees (who are actually permitted to help the customer) are always welcome too.

    --
    "Well, good luck finding a judge that doesn't run a bestiality site."
    1. Re:Retail experience by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Restaurants are really only hot if it is 2004. I am checking my calendar..hold on. Nope, it is not, so no. Anyhosen, it may appear this way of you live in the city, but if you actually like food, and can cook, your options for eating decent food at a restaurant start to reduce dramatically the further you get from a major city.

    2. Re:Retail experience by starless · · Score: 1

      like taking a dump. You have to do it so just get it over with and get back to your life.

      Freud might disagree with you.
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    3. Re:Retail experience by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "Apple stores are about the experience . . ."

      Here's my experience. Apple stores are filled to the brim. Good luck trying to talk to someone. A couple years back I wanted to buy a Macbook Pro for my wife. After waiting 30 minutes to talk to a "genius", I asked him what is the difference between the regular Macbook pro and the "retina" version. His response, "the retina is for graphics designers".

      That was my last trip to the Apple store.

    4. Re:Retail experience by Luthair · · Score: 0

      Apple is a marketing company not retail. Further, I suspect if you surveyed the people in the store most of them are waiting for service on their idevice not purchasing anything.

    5. Re:Retail experience by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Anyhosen, it may appear this way of you live in the city, but if you actually like food, and can cook, your options for eating decent food at a restaurant start to reduce dramatically the further you get from a major city.

      Most humans live in or near a major city.

      I don't, so I cook a lot. But I have done, and then I cooked less, much to my detriment. Still, it is typical.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    6. Re:Retail experience by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Apple's all but killed their retail operations. They fired/reassigned all the people that came up in the Apple culture and replaced them with people that came up in the dying old ways of retail. Getting service on an Apple product is a ballache, you make an appointment, drive to the store, then traipse through the gargantuan upper-class mall, get harassed by that pushy broad with the dead sea salt scrubs. Finally you get to the Apple store except your appointment doesn't mean a thing, you still wait in line in an overcrowded store just to have an interchangeable low-skill employee tell you what you already know and put the damn thing in a box for you. The ONLY saving grace is you can tell them to ship the product back to you when it's repaired.

      Talk crap about Dell's products all you want, but I can get my Dell stuff repaired in less time and not have to leave my house.

    7. Re:Retail experience by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's kind of funny. In my view of this thread, the next topic immediately below this one is "Costco says wut?", which discusses the fact that Costco and other "warehouse retailers" are doing a ton of business.

      My "experience" in those warehouse places is that I can load a tub of mayo, palette of socks, and bale of toilet paper into the cart, stand on a (sometimes long) line, and get out. No one bothers me, and I don't see the retail space's money being wasted on frilly cardboard displays for deodorant or toothpaste.

      Oh! Sometimes they have free samples, and it's kind of fun. It's a game to see if you can grab a free sample while the worker's distracted so you don't make eye contact. That's a fun experience, I guess?

      So yeah, the "experience" I want from small retailers? I want them to leave me the hell alone. I want to get in and get out as quickly as possible. If they invented some sort of trebuchet that could launch my order into my car's trunk as I drive by at low speed, all the better. In other words, the "experience" I want is "pretty much like online, except I'm driving to the warehouse instead of it driving to me".

      Retailers are doomed.

    8. Re:Retail experience by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And retail isn't marketing? Really, that's ALL it is - delivering the product is incidental. Marketing is required to get people into the store and keep them there long enough to buy something. If you already know what you want, in the old days, you went to a place that just had order-takers, and now you buy it online. If you need advice or service, or need or want to examine the goods before making a decision, then you go to the store. Marketing influences the boundary between those, and which and how many stores you go to.

    9. Re:Retail experience by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No no no I beg to differ.... Going to Walmart is ALL about the experience. Just yesterday I was in the local Walmart (true story) and an announcement was made over the PA, "Would the customer looking for his teeth please come to the service desk?" Yes a customer did in fact misplace his teeth and was all over the store searching for them.

      Now, had I not gone to Walmart yesterday, I would have completely missed that experience.

    10. Re:Retail experience by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fuck that fucking cokehead mother fucker.

  16. I blame Brexit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I blame Brexit ... oh wait!

  17. Re:Lather. Rinse. Repeat. by umghhh · · Score: 3, Interesting

    If the going is good why not expand. Bacteria do it, humans do it, companies do it, shares dealers do it. Once the border of the petry dish is reached a collapse or correction occurs. There is a desire to get out of the boost/bust cycle but similar to forest fires - keeping small ones away makes the next one an all destroying monster fire. In a sense boost moment is just a point where a heap of crap collected for quite some time exceeds its physical capacity to hold together and collapses. The question is: at what point you intervene and how (that are 2 questions actually). Completely preventing them you can - by enforcing a regime like in NK I suppose that works too only for limited length of time.

  18. YOU Are a neo-communist. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    You compared prices in foreign countries not on par with labor in your own.

    You subverted Tariffs that would have protected domestic value to an appreciable degree.

    You bought something of casual or leisurely nature, ignoring the state of the arts locally around.

    I was guilty of these upto the Year 2012, when I realized the divide in value concerns durrability and a service industry; I can dumster-dive and repair damaged chassis and component form-factor products and commit an equal exchange to boot; tha's all we can do, work from home, to correct the problem since nobody can industrially compete to the international economic violenve that China commits against Americans & Affricas, and Eurapeons.

    1. Re:YOU Are a neo-communist. by pezpunk · · Score: 5, Informative

      "You compared prices in foreign countries not on par with labor in your own."

      the labor was foreign either way. only the middlemen and executives were American.

      "You subverted Tariffs that would have protected domestic value to an appreciable degree."

      He made no mention of avoiding tariffs, taxes, or import duties. Only that he bought directly from the source, which is perfectly legal to do.

      "You bought something of casual or leisurely nature, ignoring the state of the arts locally around."

      he's not buying a Chinese knockoff of something. He's buying the actual product. Just skipping the middlemen.

      --
      i could live a little longer in this prison
    2. Re:YOU Are a neo-communist. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "You don't understand, Goy. Offshoring is something we bankers get to do to you workers, not something you workers get to do to us bankers."

    3. Re:YOU Are a neo-communist. by stoatwblr · · Score: 1

      "Tariffs that would have protected domestic value "

      Tariffs almost NEVER protect domestic value. They result in domestic _consumers_ paying more whilst domestic _producers_ become inefficient.

      The US vehicle industry is a prime example of this. The combination of the Chicken Tax, other hidden tariffs and a non-standard set of safety/lighting requirements (which is effectively another tariff via the back door) compared to the rest of the world results in a market that's both hard to get into and hard to break out of.

      The reason that the rest of the world don't buy many US-made vehicles is quite simply because they tend to be expensive, inefficient and poor quality - they can get away with that thanks to the huge protected domestic market, which foreign manufacturers have largely only managed to break into by establishing their own local factories.

  19. Costco says wut? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    On the weekends, Costco usually has 10 lanes of cash registers with 10 people in line each, with baskets loaded to the top, followed by long long lines to pass by receipt checkers to exit the building...The downfall of "retail" isn't all about Amazon.com and online clicks, it also includes the rise of these warehouse stores that sell superior quality produce and products (except for their accidentally unauthorized jewelry and slightly obsolete electronics) as well as buying basic household goods in bulk to reduce cost in a country that has had depressed wages for twenty years. Because of the lower overhead, warehouse stores can be a much cheaper way to buy things than ordering online from Amazon and still offer some of the seasonal and local customizations that Department stores once did.

    1. Re:Costco says wut? by EmagGeek · · Score: 4, Informative

      Don't forget that Costco at least also pays a living wage, with the lowest paid workers making about $35K/year plus medical, dental, and vision benefits, and a 401k match.

      Costco is definitely not the cheapest game in town for much of what they sell, but like you say, you CAN get in and out of there FAST with a month's worth of supplies, and not have to make 10 stops across town to get it all. That kind of convenience is worth quite a bit.

    2. Re:Costco says wut? by Trailer+Trash · · Score: 1

      Costco pays a living wage, but they also employ 90% of the unskilled people who are worth that kind of money in the area. There aren't enough workers who are that good for other stores to do the same. Sam's Club/Walmart's strategy is to employ lower-level workers, pay a little less (although still better than Target) and have better procedures in place to deal with lower level workers and more turnover.

    3. Re:Costco says wut? by cayenne8 · · Score: 2

      On the weekends, Costco usually has 10 lanes of cash registers with 10 people in line each, with baskets loaded to the top, followed by long long lines to pass by receipt checkers to exit the building...The downfall of "retail" isn't all about Amazon.com and online clicks, it also includes the rise of these warehouse stores that sell superior quality produce and products (except for their accidentally unauthorized jewelry and slightly obsolete electronics) as well as buying basic household goods in bulk to reduce cost in a country that has had depressed wages for twenty years. Because of the lower overhead, warehouse stores can be a much cheaper way to buy things than ordering online from Amazon and still offer some of the seasonal and local customizations that Department stores once did.

      I agree.

      One of my favorite places to shop is Costco.

      When they finally opened one in New Orleans....I found it is like Sam's Club, but on steroids.

      I do find I spend a bit more there than at Sam's, but I love the place.

      I buy a lot of my weekly groceries there, at least bulk stuff. I get my meats there, and bulk veggies and fruit, and the price works out for me well.

      I basically keep my pantry and deep freezer stocked 99% from Costco, and only hit the regular grocery stores for weekly specials...and smaller fresh, perishable items I need....

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    4. Re:Costco says wut? by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      People are going to Costco in droves for the same reason they're staying away from Sears: it's the service. The world is chock-full of stories of people who brought stuff back to Costco which failed well out of warranty and they replaced it anyway. It's also chock-full of stuff which people bought from Costco and it didn't fail, because they tend to actually do some research and then stock only things which don't suck. They haven't fallen into the trap of the average retailer who feels they have to stock everything popular. That's a poor substitute to having sales personnel who can sell people on whatever you have on the floor, because it's superior. Unfortunately, those employees (and their training) also have to be superior, and statistically nobody wants to do the work or pay the wage to have someone who knows their crap, even if that actually makes money. So they wind up stocking three or four different products which do the same thing (only one of which is worth buying, if any) and that takes away shelf space which they could use to stock some different products so that they have in the kind of thing that they want. Then a competent salesdroid makes the kill, and sells you the thing.

      Costco only stocks things worth buying, and they have a sufficiently good return policy that people aren't worried about suffering remorse. Why more retailers haven't caught on to these particular aspects of their sales strategy is beyond me.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    5. Re:Costco says wut? by dj245 · · Score: 2

      On the weekends, Costco usually has 10 lanes of cash registers with 10 people in line each, with baskets loaded to the top, followed by long long lines to pass by receipt checkers to exit the building...The downfall of "retail" isn't all about Amazon.com and online clicks, it also includes the rise of these warehouse stores that sell superior quality produce and products (except for their accidentally unauthorized jewelry and slightly obsolete electronics) as well as buying basic household goods in bulk to reduce cost in a country that has had depressed wages for twenty years. Because of the lower overhead, warehouse stores can be a much cheaper way to buy things than ordering online from Amazon and still offer some of the seasonal and local customizations that Department stores once did.

      The problem with Costco is that they actively provide an inferior shopping experience-
      Aisles are not labeled and products move around frequently
      Aisles are logjammed at my location. First it was just on weekends, now it is basically any time.
      Lines are very long as you mentioned
      If you find a commodity product you really like, Costco may stop carrying it at any time (They have infuriated me with their yogurt brand/ swapouts)
      You can't park your cart next to the bathrooms unless you are already checked out. (Big inconvenience if you have small children)
      3rd party companies hassling me about Direct TV, cell phones, etc. have become more common
      Prices are not especially cheap compared to other stores on many products

      I still shop there but we are strongly considering dropping membership.

      --
      Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress at this period in history.
    6. Re:Costco says wut? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bought my washer and dryer at Costco with full 5 year warranty. Cheaper than Home Depot.

    7. Re:Costco says wut? by sconeu · · Score: 1

      When they finally opened one in New Orleans....I found it is like Sam's Club, but on steroids.

      And unlike Walmart, Costco treats their employees like human beings, rather than slaves.

      --
      General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
    8. Re:Costco says wut? by pnutjam · · Score: 1

      I use Sam's Club instead of Costco. My impression is they pay better then Walmart and the employees seem to be a higher caliber, although I know they are not as good as Costco.

      Generally I can buy a cheap or store brand for less elsewhere, but I can get a higher quality item for a bit more then the low quality items at Sam's club.

    9. Re:Costco says wut? by pnutjam · · Score: 1

      I've been thinking of switching from Sam's to Costco, but the last two things I searched, tires & mattresses had a better selection and better prices at Sam's.

    10. Re:Costco says wut? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bingo! In fact, Walmart's strategy is built around expected high turnover. They know every year there will be a new crop of pimply faced kids looking for their first job and desperate for anything. They get paid slightly more than minimum and Walmart intentionally understaffs so the employees are all running like crazy. By the end of the year employees are dropping like flies, but lo and behold there's a new crop graduating from high school desperate for their first job...

    11. Re:Costco says wut? by drew_kime · · Score: 1

      I've been thinking of switching from Sam's to Costco, but the last two things I searched, tires & mattresses had a better selection and better prices at Sam's.

      I'm a huge fan of comparison shopping, but are tires and mattresses something you're going to buy often enough that they should drive the decision?

      --
      Nope, no sig
    12. Re:Costco says wut? by cayenne8 · · Score: 1

      I've been thinking of switching from Sam's to Costco, but the last two things I searched, tires & mattresses had a better selection and better prices at Sam's.

      I've kept my Sam's club membership along with my Costco one.

      There are a 'few' things I get at Sam's that isn't the same brand at Costco, but I find that more and more....I go to Costco and rarely to Sam's.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    13. Re:Costco says wut? by pnutjam · · Score: 1

      no, and I mentioned that when I talked about it with my wife. Last time we checked it out during busier time, we're planning to check it out when it's not as busy and re-evaluate.

    14. Re:Costco says wut? by irrational_design · · Score: 1

      "accidentally unauthorized jewelry" I haven't heard of this. What does it mean?

    15. Re:Costco says wut? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Sam's Club and Walmart source and sell cheap products cheap, with Sam's Club offering a very limited supply of those same cheap products even cheaper (by charging an annual membership fee and selling in bulk). In other words, they don't offer very good quality or selection. If you do find something that SEEMS like a good deal, especially priced above $100, chances are something is wrong --like it's a version of a product that was discontinued or it's a "special version" available only through Sam's Club and Walmart (with "special warranty", etc.) This may be because they race their suppliers to the bottom with rules about mandatory price reductions each year and sometimes the winner often has to complete with a Walmart-store-brand positioned directly next to it on the shelf. They went after Costco's business model, but Costco thrived because it stuck with quality and selection. Now they're going after Amazon's business model from 5 years ago, turning their stores into distribution hubs and pickup locations for an app.

    16. Re:Costco says wut? by pnutjam · · Score: 1

      That's not been my experience with Sam's club. The products offered are not the same as the ones at Walmart. They have higher quality goods at slightly better prices then elsewhere. For example, they just had a display with Uggs for $120.

      As you can see from my link, that's a good price. The problem is I can go to Shoe Carnival and buy knock offs for $19.99 (terrible quality), or buy knock off's at Sam's for $45 (real sheepskin, good quality).

      So for many things, it's a solid deal. I only buy winter coats from Sam's if I can help it. Other things I don't care as much about quality, or I want a wider selection. It's a trade off.

    17. Re:Costco says wut? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Like buying tires and matresses are something you buy all the time. Get outta here with that bullshit.

    18. Re:Costco says wut? by mentil · · Score: 1

      unauthorized as in counterfeit

      --
      Corruption is convincing someone that the selfless ideal is the same as their selfish ideal.
    19. Re:Costco says wut? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Twenty years? More like forty.

  20. Re: We just need to inject more money into the sys by stealth_finger · · Score: 1

    Trade them all for bison dollars. After I kidnap their queen each one will worth five British pounds,

    --
    Wanna buy a shirt?
    https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
  21. Re: We just need to inject more money into the sys by bosef1 · · Score: 1

    Or hot dogs... "They'd be so abundant, they'd become our currency! 20 hot dogs would equal roughly a nickel. Depending on the strength of the yen, I'm not quite sure, but...you know what, I'm getting ahead of myself. Let's just keep praying that we can clone one of these hot dogs."

  22. Re:Lather. Rinse. Repeat. by geekmux · · Score: 1

    If the going is good why not expand. Bacteria do it, humans do it, companies do it, shares dealers do it.

    One of these things is not like the other.

    When ruthless Greed is compared to mindless bacteria that only know how to do one fucking thing, the real disease that will destroy us, is Ignorance.

    One would have thought the most advanced species on the planet would be more capable of preventing it's own destruction. Guess not.

  23. Re:"Free stuffz" is the Democrat mantra by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I don't think that word means what you think it means.

  24. From the Summary by IWantMoreSpamPlease · · Score: 3, Insightful

    >>... unemployment is historically low...

    Total bollocks. It's only listed that way because the feds lie about how they count unemployment.
    If you include the total, real world number of those who have been out of work for longer than a year, forced to work part time, and those on public assistance, the number is in the double digits.

    --
    So rise up, all ye lost ones, as one, we'll claw the clouds.
    1. Re:From the Summary by BaronM · · Score: 4, Informative

      I'd like to know where you get 'double digits' from. BLS tracks a much broader measure of unemployment, U6, in addition to the headline figure. That measure is: "Total unemployed, plus all marginally attached workers plus total employed part time for economic reasons, as a percent of all civilian labor force plus all marginally attached workers". The most recent figure for that is 7.9%. Much higher than the most frequently reported measure, but not 'doubld digits'.

    2. Re:From the Summary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are wildly wrong. The BLS is one of the most widely respected statistics organizations around. Just because they tell you something you don't want to hear doesn't mean they are wrong.

    3. Re:From the Summary by IWantMoreSpamPlease · · Score: 2, Informative

      https://www.thebalance.com/wha...

      Near as makes no difference to 10%

      --
      So rise up, all ye lost ones, as one, we'll claw the clouds.
    4. Re:From the Summary by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      There is also the issue of underemployment. In the UK the numbers are low because a million people are on "zero hour" contracts. Basically you have no guarantee of getting any work, you might get zero hours one week and 40 hours the next. Companies don't even have to make people redundant any more, they just stop giving them hours.

      Not all jobs are equal. Shitty jobs can be as bad as being unemployed.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    5. Re:From the Summary by jimbolauski · · Score: 1

      I've always hated unemployment as a metric for success of the economy, the labor participation rate, while flawed, at least measures the percent of people working. It dropped over the last 9 years and appears to have leveled off but has not rebounded. Anyone saying the low unemployment rate is a sign of a successful economy is an idiot or a partisan hack.

      --
      Knowledge = Power
      P= W/t
      t=Money
      Money = Work/Knowledge so the less you know the more you make
    6. Re:From the Summary by Sumus+Semper+Una · · Score: 2

      https://www.thebalance.com/wha...

      Near as makes no difference to 10%

      I read the entire article. Why did you cherry-pick the January 2017 U6 number of 9.4% and round up to 10% to justify your "double digits" claim? The October value for U6 is 7.9%. As the article states:

      In October 2017, the real unemployment rate (U-6) was 7.9 percent

      The entire point of the article is that regardless of the unemployment statistic you use, unemployment is down in apples to apples comparisons across the board. I don't understand what point you're trying to make other than that the fed does not use the U6 number to report unemployment. And if that's your axe to grind, why don't you refute the reasons they give for reporting U3 instead of U6? There are actual reasons, it wasn't a totally arbitrary decision of "because the number looks nicer."

    7. Re:From the Summary by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      The actual rate of unemployment (as opposed to published statistics) is somewhere between the U-6 and the inverse of the labor force participation rate, if you account for the people who aren't accounted for in the U-6 — those who have not looked for work in one year. Plenty of people have been discouraged to the point that they're just doing whatever odd jobs they've secured for themselves, but how many? They're difficult to measure.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    8. Re:From the Summary by Sumus+Semper+Una · · Score: 1

      Wait, if you're looking to see how many people might have completely dropped out of participating in the labor force in a time period wouldn't the worst case scenario be the difference in overall labor force participation percentage at point A and the percentage at point B? If 66% of the population was participating in the labor force in 2007 and 63% is participating in 2017 then 4% stopped participating either because they gave up or because of another factor or mix of factors. But worst case, 3% more completely dropped out of the workforce than there were in 2017. Taking the absolute worse case and adding it to the U6 number is the only way I can think of to get to double digit unemployment, and even then it's a stretch.

      Now, if you're going to say that the real unemployment number is completely unreported and/or unknowable by any currently available statistics in any meaningful ways whatsoever then how can you possibly back up any sort of claim that employment has gotten any worse or better other than by anecdotal stories which are not representative of the overall picture? I just don't get how any claims that unemployment is actually getting worse or better can be backed up after saying that we've never known the real unemployment rates.

    9. Re:From the Summary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Also remember to check the Labor Participation Rate - the number of people that are or want to be in the workforce out of the number capable of working. People that have given up on finding a job are counted there (unlike in any of the unemployment figures).

      The US Labor Participation Rate in October 2017 was 62.7%. That's an improvement over the last two years at this time, but down from 5 years, 10 years, or even 30 years ago. In fact, it's as low as it's been since about 1977/1978.

    10. Re:From the Summary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Never once when I was laid off did anyone, including the unemploment office, ask me what happened once I stopped getting checks. They don't know if my new job is better than my old one, or if I had to drop to part time, or if I just gave up and stay home all day. No idea where BLS get their numbers. Simply put, if the economy were doing so damned good and unemplyment was so damned low, then why the hell do people have time and motivation to go protest? Go out and look around in your own town. These numbers, all of them, are pulled directly from an unknown ass.

    11. Re:From the Summary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mmm tasty logic. Good luck getting a serious reply from that poster

  25. Survival of the fittest by Martin+S. · · Score: 0

    We've had it drummed into us for for decades that capitalism ensures the survival of the fittest businesses.

    Those businesses that over exposed themselves, made bad business, over leveraged themselves will disappear and be replaced by businesses that have been more prudent.

    So why has this suddenly become a problem?

    1. Re:Survival of the fittest by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      So why has this suddenly become a problem?

      Too Big To Fail. Sears is large enough to where if it goes under, it takes thousands and thousands of jobs with it, and impacts everyone in the country and lots of other people besides. Sears closing will literally cause a noticeable increase in crime, since we have no meaningful safety net in America.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    2. Re:Survival of the fittest by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That only makes sense if the failure is sudden. Sears has been gradually sliding into the abyss for a couple of decades. They employ a tiny fraction of the personnel they used to. I don't think the economy will really notice when they're finally snuffed out.

    3. Re:Survival of the fittest by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you don't add value, you are history. There is no such thing as too big to fail, period. Badly run or outdated companies DESERVE to die. As an employee you better be paying attention to how and where you make your bread, not guarantees.
      Sears failing is actually a good thing, the government should never reward shitty performance when the market has already decided otherwise.

    4. Re:Survival of the fittest by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sears has been declining for so many years that they're not big enough any more to be a serious problem. Just another store chain going down the final drain. It was different 20-30 years ago when Sears really was something (though already showing signs of corporate mortality). Not really any more. The loss of the name means something, and yes, the number of people out of a job will be larger than, say, when Radio Shack finally evaporated, but it's not the apocalypse from that store chain alone.

  26. It Is Going To Happen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There is a lot more retail floor space per capita in the US than either the EU or Japan. 5 times the retail space is not sustainable long term. Many retail workers will suffer but one way or the other the floor space will be reduced. I would guess in the end the US will still have a higher number when this shrinking is done given its large areas of low population. Free enterprise works but the result often hurts people especially in the short term. It is better this happens in a strong economy it gives those affected a better chance of less disruption of their lives.

  27. For me ... by kfh227 · · Score: 1

    ... I buy things on the internet that I thinki Wal-Mart wouldn't stock like rare card games or cheap cables of any sort.

    If Wal-Mart simply stocked cheap USB cables, etc they would get tons of business from that alone. Even if it were a loss leader!!

  28. There is no Retail Apocalypse by PastTense · · Score: 1

    Lee Holman and Greg Buzak authored a report published in August of this year: "Debunking the Retail Apocalypse" in which they stated:
    " Over 4,850 more stores are opening than closing among big chains, and when smaller retailers are included the net gain is well over 10,000 new stores. As well, through the first seven months of the year, retail sales are up $122 billion, an amount roughly equivalent to the total annual retail sales of The Netherlands.â"

    Get the full report at:
    http://www.centromarca.pt/fold...

  29. Re:Lather. Rinse. Repeat. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So, tell us what you are doing to divorce yourself from human nature?

  30. It's not just retailers... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It is not just retailers overloaded with debt, it is the American people overloaded with debt. Reduction in unemployment does not mean a person instantly has excess cash to spend frivolously. I'm still in debt from 2010 and have not been able to find a full-time direct hire job since then, nothing but contract work and lower pay. To top it all off, while buried in debt ObamaCare came along and forced me to take on a $200/month bill or else face a $850/year fine, neither of which I can afford. I won't be out of debt until 2030 at this rate, THANKS OBAMA!

  31. Re:Lather. Rinse. Repeat. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Thousands of balloon/ARM mortgages approved for unqualified borrowers also had all the makings of a disaster back in 2008 too. There's a common trait in the human race that spans thousands of years; a propensity to never fucking learn.

    It's not about learning - that was the whole business model! This is how it works:

    1. Private equity buys a distressed company cheap.
    2. Private equity borrows against the [remaining] assets of the company.
    3. Private equity pockets 50% of the cash from the loans as a service fee, but leaves the company to repay 100% of the debt
    4. Private equity sells said company for a profit (Look at all the cash we raised! We've turned the company around!)
    5. Often the buyer is another private equity firm. Wash, lather, repeat.
  32. Re:Lather. Rinse. Repeat. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There's a common trait in the human race that spans thousands of years; a propensity to never fucking learn.

    What did people learn from the 2008 financial crisis? Well, that people who make irresponsible loans can make a lot of money doing so. Why wouldn't they do it again as soon as possible?

  33. Re:Lather. Rinse. Repeat. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The thing is, deep down we are "genes" that want to spread. For billions of years we learned how to spread as bacteria, becoming multi-cellular is somewhat of a new trick much less becoming brained.

  34. It was brought upon by themselves... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What I find funny is that the retail crunch is brought upon by the stores themselves. For example, if a store had a good name and was known for a quality aspect, then starts pays their employees minimum wage, replaces their high quality tools with whatever the Chinese OEM makes, goes from top tier appliances with good parts and repair to cheap, disposable items, they are now competing against the discount stores... and the discount stores know their stuff and will eat their lunch.

    The ironic part is the pittance workers get paid. If you pay people cheaply, expect them to buy cheap stuff, and not what you are selling. Henry Ford understood this way back when. With retail shops paying minimum wage, it is no wonder why nobody can afford their stuff and go shopping at Wal-Mart or Amazon. Plus, with low pay comes a poor attitude, which turns away customers. Pay people a livable income, and they will actually be interested in helping the company get/retain customers.

    Realistically, I've had no need to visit retail chains in a long while. If I want/need something specific, I hit the Amazon link. For groceries, I hit a local store like Kroger's. If I need basic supplies, Wal-Mart and Target are good enough. Plus, why fight the soccer moms and the middle school kids looking to pop tires and key vehicles at the mall when I can order what I need while at work, then have it delivered. With the Amazon key system, I give access to my garage's side door, which allows stuff to be delivered there without worrying about the security of the rest of my place. Why do I need to waste gas and fight traffic, when whatever I need can be delivered? In fact, I don't have to worry about staples like toilet paper or other items, as they are delivered on a schedule?

    Had places like Sears and such kept their good names by not moving their manufacturing to China, treated their workers like garbage, and kept their service and parts departments up to par, it would be a different story. However, by going cheap, Sears tried to compete with Wal-Mart and Target... and got their butts kicked.

    Sears needs to re-organize. The Craftsman name is lost, but they could make another line of tools which are on par with MAC or Snap-On, and after a few years, the tools will speak for themselves and earn a reputation. They need to stop treating retail workers like garbage and pay them something sane, so there is some interest in staying at the company. They need to offer items which are so notable, people will explicitly order them. Find cool things from crowdsourcing places. Offer to fund them. Stuff that will get people to actually say it is cool and worth looking at. Focus on strong points. Sears used to have some pretty awesome brands, where I could find parts for something 10-20 years after the sale. Go back to that. People don't want crap that has to be thrown away and replaced anymore.

  35. Fallacy alert "unemployment is historically low" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The metric "unemployment is historically low" is a deceptive measure in the context of retail health. What that metric accounts for are citizens collecting unemployment benefits within a six month period. Once they exhaust the six months and they still have not found work, that metric does not include them.

    Politicians love to use such a report to claim that "unemployment is historically low" when in fact there are other metrics from the BLS that uncover the true story. According to this document, it states that the labor force participation rate has decreased little in the past 12 months and to date that 95 million citizens - regardless of whether they are collecting benefits - are not in the labor force which is actually almost 40% unemployment. THAT is the elephant in the room no one wants to talk about. Retail is suffering because there is a huge sector of unemployed citizens who don't have the disposable income they used to, thus they are unable to patronize stores.

  36. Convert to residential by MTEK · · Score: 1

    Tear down the zombie strip malls and rezone the properties for apartments/condos.

    1. Re:Convert to residential by Baron_Yam · · Score: 2

      I don't know if it's a thing in your area, but around here a significant percentage of newer apartment buildings (condo or otherwise) have the first floor hosting retail units.

      Totally destroying retail presence means more sprawl with more people needing cars more frequently.

    2. Re:Convert to residential by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's such an over-abundance of strip mall space it's insane. I have a feeling in a few years when leases start coming up for renewal (commercial leases are generally far longer than residential) we're going to see a huge dip in commercial rents.

    3. Re:Convert to residential by MTEK · · Score: 1

      Where I live, like many places, affordable living accommodations are becoming scarcer. But yeah, increasing population density will no doubt create challenges elsewhere.

  37. Re:"Free stuffz" is the Democrat mantra by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Free" health care.

    "Free" college.

    That's the Democrat way...

    What, you don't like free stuff?

  38. Bad retail experiences by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm male, 6' with a 44" waist and 32" leg and size 12 feet. When I go to the store, they have 2-3 items in my size in a style I'd never pick (orange or bright colors). Shoes have gotten better in the last 5 years.

    I can go online, enter my sizes and pick from a variety of similar clothes in different brands with multiple colors. I don't have to drive 20 minutes or more to the retail stores.

    I buy tools, parts, supplies online too. They're in stock and the model I want. For some things, shipping makes it cost more, but they're few and far between. There is nothing worse than wasting an hour driving to the store and finding the part you need isn't there.

    I remember doing this with mail order when that peaked in the 80s-90s. Web is better than that.

    I don't know what the solution is for retail. Unlike men, woman need to try clothes on. I don't see groceries losing out to online either.

  39. Actual Bricks and Mortar Can Compete by drinkypoo · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Sears kicked ass for years because they owned their own real estate and they were able to offer competitive prices. They'd already have gone under if they hadn't kept their trucking fleet, although they had to change the name on the side of the trucks because nobody wanted to see a Sears truck.

    They were already failing before they started selling real estate, though, which they started doing specifically because they couldn't cover their operating expenses otherwise. And they were failing not because they couldn't compete with the internets, but because they didn't try. They compromised customer service, which was what got people through the door. They also compromised quality, for instance Craftsman tools have been going downhill for years. So why would you bother to go in there?

    I also wonder how much money Sears has spent on their agonizingly awful e-commerce site. It does tend to carry pretty much everything, but it has pretty much everything at the highest prices anywhere. When you add to this the fact that it's one of the worst sites on the interwebs, it's easy to see why nobody uses it.

    I, for one, fell out of love with Sears years ago, when I was just getting acquainted with powered yard equipment and found that they wanted about 400% of reasonable parts prices. More recently, I had a problem with them not wanting to honor a warranty. Sears changes model numbers on products which haven't actually changed every year so that they don't have any stock to make warranty replacements with, so that they can dick you around. Is that really cheaper than just doing business properly? Who knows. But fuck 'em.

    --
    "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    1. Re:Actual Bricks and Mortar Can Compete by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      Sears kicked ass for years because they owned their own real estate and they were able to offer competitive prices.

      Sears kicked also ass for years because at a national level, they were the One Big Chain that you could find everywhere. And if you couldn't find 'em locally, they had the best mail order and delivery service in the country.
       
      But all that changed in the 50's and 60's... They began divesting themselves of real estate and moving out of downtown shopping areas and out into malls and suburbia. A long series of dubious 'expansions' into other ventures sapped them of capital and left them short when the crises of the mid-late 70's hit. Their own retail arm cannibalized their mail-order arm (which they kept pouring money into long after is was sensible).

      They were already failing before they started selling real estate, though, which they started doing specifically because they couldn't cover their operating expenses otherwise. And they were failing not because they couldn't compete with the internets, but because they didn't try. They compromised customer service, which was what got people through the door. They also compromised quality, for instance Craftsman tools have been going downhill for years. So why would you bother to go in there?

      Sears was dying long before the 'net came along. On top of the problems outlined above, there was a lot more going on: The slide of the middle class (their bread and butter) starting back in the 80's... The perception that they were store that "your parents went to"... Their ungainly internal infrastructure (and extensive fiefdoms*, often at war with each other).... Competition from Target and other, more nimble and image conscious, chains... Etc. Etc.. Etc...

      * The internal fiefdoms really hurt them... There were both regional fiefdoms, and product line fiefdoms. This made it very difficult to rationalize and control the company as a whole because powerful middle management could and did sabotage those efforts to their own ends.

  40. Re:"Free stuffz" is the Democrat mantra by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Free" health care.

    "Free" college.

    That's the Democrat way...

    "Free" health care.

    "Free" college.

    That's the Democrat way...

    Nope. The complaints about Democrats are that they MADE people pay for health care and MADE people pay for college with loans and expectations of degree completion. That they subject people to regulation, obligation and control.

    Whereas Republicans have provided bailout money with no expectations or demands, and even opposed enforcing contractual requirements. They've also sought to remove liability and eliminate accountability. They're the party of welfare and irresponsibility.

    You're through the looking glass now, enjoy the perspective, but watch out, don't cut yourself on the shards.

  41. We need more corporate tax breaks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If we are going to save these retail jobs we need more corporate tax breaks, and we need to cut the top tier individual tax rate down to 14%, that will spur the economy.

  42. Accelerated depreciation by michaelmalak · · Score: 1

    In 2004, Malcolm Gladwell accelerated depreciation as to why so many malls were built in the first place. I just now added this to the Wikipedia article.

  43. i Stand by my statement by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    the goal isnt an equal exchange of anykind, but export U.S. currencies that only facilitate land purchase.

    This is the same when some fool buys any street drug; COPS cause the highest export of U.S. currencies when they punnish and liquidate domestic streetdrugs from preventing those U.S. currencies exported to Mexico and Columbia.

  44. Privacy issues with online shopping by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

    I hope retail lasts a while. Not because I particularly like shopping in person, but because online shopping is creepy from a privacy perspective. You have to use electronic payment and tie purchases to your identity and address. Meaning that the profile that retailers, marketeers, governments, and health insurers have on you gets even bigger.

    Even if you have nothing to hide, assuming price restrictions and community rating on health insurance are repealed, how long before health insurers start billing you based on the food, drinks, and snacks you buy? The data will be out there and available to everyone who can buy it -- US has weak data-protection laws.

    Fortunately, I'm moving to a part of my city that has a strong cash economy (due to immigrant population), so retail won't die there for another 30+ years...

    1. Re:Privacy issues with online shopping by mentil · · Score: 1

      If you buy a 24-pack of Snickers every month, does that automatically tell the insurance company that you're obese and your insurance premiums should go up? No. It's possible to eat 24 candy bars a month and not be obese, and you may not be eating all (or any) of them. Correlations between consumption of specific foods and health problems are so low it'd be impossible to do that; without knowing your entire diet (of what you're actually swallowing, not just ordering online) it'd be impossible to tell e.g. your total saturated fat intake. I'd be way more worried about buying a box of Rogaine as a gag gift for my dad, and starting to receive spam from Hair Club For Men; or me buying some condoms and a 'helpful note' being emailed to my wife that I bought some and may be cheating on her because they know her contraceptive pill prescription is still active.

      Retail stores have no privacy though; the computerized registers timestamp your purchase, which is correlated to the CCTV timestamp, and your face is identified via facial recognition. Paid cash? It's still known exactly what you bought. Police catch people this way, it takes a little work, but can easily be automated.

      --
      Corruption is convincing someone that the selfless ideal is the same as their selfish ideal.
    2. Re:Privacy issues with online shopping by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      CCTV footage is typically local and is recorded on a loop of several days, after which it's overwritten. Also, facial recognition and analysis takes some work.

      It's not as simple as being able to say "John Doe of 10 Penny Lane, Podunk, NE, bought item 1, 2, and 3 on Nov 5, 2018." Online shopping is much simpler to analyze.

      Retail has much more privacy after the fact, especially if you wait a week or two.

  45. Re:Lather. Rinse. Repeat. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There aren't a lot of choices. There are strip mall after strip mall filled with Old Navy, Bed, Bath, and Beyond, Chili's, Petco, Kohl's and Starbucks. The spaces in between are punctuated with Target, Walmart, Home Depot, and Lowe's. The whole thing is peppered with some CVS and Walgreens. City to city, state to state, it's all the same shit. They build bigger and "better" stores, but the increased shelf space isn't used to carry more variety, it's used to hold more of the same shit they already had, but spread out more. It's the distinct lack of choice that's driving people away.

  46. Re:Lather. Rinse. Repeat. by avandesande · · Score: 1

    There must be 3 different starbucks knockoffs in my area... seriously?

    --
    love is just extroverted narcissism
  47. Re:YOU Are a neo-liberal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Fixed the title for the European consumers of Slashdot title lines. I assume a "neo-communist" is near a libertarian in the US political spectrum. What he did lose by importing the goods himself are his consumer rights, something he might not care much about dealing with low-valued items.

  48. Moving America? by ripvlan · · Score: 1

    I've seen that some once thriving area's are now shrinking - people have moved to new areas. And maybe those stores need to close.

    It feels more like Refactoring. Close the ones that aren't working and open new ones that will work.

    Economics says that this will take care of itself. I don't think Amazon is the cause. Yes - Sears has done a lot to hurt itself. But they started out as a catalog store - able to service areas without having to build a giant store. And many feel they failed to react quickly enough to changing landscape.

    As for being a made up media hype - could be. But I don't read the news anymore. It's all fake... right?!

  49. Product of Globalization by DarthVain · · Score: 1

    As has been the norm for several decades now, as a generalization most things are made in China for next to nothing. This and globalization has been a boon for retailers for a long time, in that they buy from said dirt cheap retailers, import the products, mark it up 5000% all for fun and profit. Fast forward to the inevitable result of sustained globalization combined with advances in online markets, and you have consumers with other options. Basically the same crap but without the 5000% markup. Now the slight markup for profit exists at the point of origin, or at an online clearinghouse such as Amazon or others, who more often than not just let the seller mark it up, and they take a percentage for using these online services and branding.

    I mean it was different when there were different products of greater quality, but for large retailers that more less doesn't exist anymore. The small guys, that exist in the quality brand niche, will do just fine, as there will always be a demand for that, so long as that quality divide exists and people are willing to pay for it. However it is pretty easy, and has happened to me, and everyone else really, where you see a product on a shelf of a retailer that is the EXACT same product, cheaply re-branded with a stamp, or box, or whatever as a product on some Chinese website for about 1/10 or 1/20th the cost. About the only drawback is that you need to wait for it, but I think many people are willing to do exactly just that. Even now, the postal and distribution services are cutting that down every year.

    Bottom line, is they had it good for a long time, but in the end you reap what you sow, and the chickens are coming home to roost.

    Anyway it doesn't effect all retailers the same way, as certain product types are less impacted.

  50. Ikea 2.0 by TheStickBoy · · Score: 1

    Almost like Ikea but without the checkout.
    Thats a great idea.
    Sometimes when buying online I wish I could view it in person first. I guess I'm already doing that at brick and mortar stores but they just don't have everything I'm looking for.

  51. Sell food, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Personal services and the shopping experience. Make buying something entertaining.

  52. The Laffer curve by twotonfist · · Score: 2

    What about the side of the curve that is never shown. Tax revenues falling on the right side of the curve so far that potholes get proper nouns for names.

  53. Yes, exactly so.. by Sqreater · · Score: 1

    ...and David Stockman, in his book, The Great Deformation, points out repeatedly the dangers of leveraged buyouts and the coming consequences of those buyouts.

    --
    E Proelio Veritas.
  54. Re:Lather. Rinse. Repeat. by phantomfive · · Score: 1

    There's a common trait in the human race that spans thousands of years; a propensity to never fucking learn

    It's hard when you keep dying. A person learns something, then he dies so his descendants forget it. That's why writing (imo) is the most significant technology of all history.

    --
    "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
  55. Let me get this straight by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Dumb" jobs are getting automated and you DON'T want to deport 3rd world citizens with no job skills? You want MORE of them? To what end?

  56. We've workd hard for, and earned, our extinction by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    One would have thought the most advanced species on the planet would be more capable of preventing it's own destruction. Guess not.

    I used to hope for human survival, enlightenment, that we'd overcome our flaws and evolve into something better. After the past year I no longer hold out such hope, nor do I want the misogynistic, racist, homophobic, bigoted scum that so many of us are to survive. It is fitting that they are the authors of their own extinction through global climate change denial and public policies that eviscerate their own economic base and chances for long-term survival.

    The only tragedy is that the rest of us are being taken down with them, but that is perhaps a small price to pay in order to clear a path for a more deserving species to step in and fill our niche. I just hope the end isn't too painful for myself and those I love.

  57. Retailers no longer sell what I want to buy by Gim+Tom · · Score: 1

    I think that retailers seem to be trying to reduce their inventory and as a result they no longer stock a wide enough variety of products to keep the customers coming to the store. I think there is a feedback loop here that the PHBs (Pointy Hair Bosses) don't understand. When I go to a store and want to buy something that they no longer carry and that I can't find elsewhere locally, I order it on line and usually never look for it from a local store again. I think a lot of people are doing this and this is at least one factor driving local retail stores out of business.

  58. What about the Slashdot apocalypse? by shanen · · Score: 1

    Wow. For a fairly active topic with lots of room for interesting comments, I am still amazed at how low Slashdot has sunk.

    Not ONE comment moderated as funny. In my admittedly mostly random searching, I couldn't even find an attempt at humor.

    Only 5 moderated as insightful. That should be a surprise, too, but it's worn out. Even less surprising that the insights were spread between trivial and imaginary.

    So I considered where as-yet-unmoderated "insight" should lie. Obviously "profit" is involved. Only 5 mentions, but nothing insightful there. Another key aspect would involve "efficiency", but that didn't get a single mention.

    Maybe there's something hidden in the AC stuff I can't see (without lots of favorable mods)? I doubt it.

    In conclusion, there are some insights on the interesting topic, but why would I invest the time seeking (or sharing) them on Slashdot?

    I always prefer to close on a positive note, but even that seems too pointless now. Search for the #1 problem that deserves the highest priority? I've already noted (repeatedly) that it's the financial model, but the borken (sic.) moderation is also not helping.

    --
    Freedom = (Meaningful - Coerced) Choice != (Speech | Beer^2), and sad sock puppets' bad mods avail them naught.
  59. lolololol by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Damned millennials and their fidget spinners killing all the things...

  60. revelation is apocalypse not failure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Apocalypse
    The concept of a prophetic revelation

    An apocalypse (Ancient Greek: apokálypsis, from and , literally meaning "an uncovering") is a disclosure of knowledge or revelation. In religious contexts it is usually a disclosure of something hidden, "a vision of heavenly secrets that can make sense of earthly realities".

    Do you trust information from ignorant writers that persistently use wrong words?

  61. Re: We just need to inject more money into the sys by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I give you a billion Trump leprechaun brains for one Stanley Unicorn Ivory toothpick.

  62. Underemployment is extremely high. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And those who cannot be counted as umemployed because they've failed to get a job in 6 months are off the charts. Literally. Real unemployment is about 18%. Retail is failing because nobody has any money to spare.

  63. Re:Lather. Rinse. Repeat. by Major_Disorder · · Score: 1

    One would have thought the most advanced species on the planet would be more capable of preventing it's own destruction. Guess not.

    The mice are doing just fine, and are still looking for the question.

    --
    First law of people: People are generally stupid.
  64. Re:We just need to inject more money into the syst by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    *Drives down to mall*. Medium Coffee: $1 million Trump Bucks. Dammit!

  65. real question by BankRobberMBA · · Score: 1

    I kind of view economies as being on a continuum between capitalism on one end and socialism/communism on the other. This is maybe not the best way to view them, but I am no economist.

    Having said that, what do you call a market that is capitalistic in nature but strongly bound by lots and lots of governmental regulation? Also where some market components (I'm thinking infrastructure, here) are owned by the government?

    I call it Keynesian, but there was a lot more to his thinking than that.

  66. Re:Lather. Rinse. Repeat. by Altrag · · Score: 1

    a propensity to never fucking learn.

    Who needs to learn? Most of the folk generally considered to have influenced or caused the crash in 2008 made out like bandits. And those same people are currently lobbying to remove the protections Obama put in place to try and prevent another such crash, which they'll probably succeed at (and I think already have partly) given how much Trump loves undoing everything Obama did, without knowing or caring about the purposes for any particular regulation -- simply having Obama's name on it is enough for Trump to hate it.

    The people I'm talking about did learn. They learned that they can get rich off of the suffering of the masses, and then when that goes belly up they learned that the government will give them another $700bn to try and undo all of the problems they caused, much of which they also just pocketed.

    All us average people with no political and almost no economic influence have learned is that those people are scum who will happily screw over the entire world for a dollar, and that there's pretty much fuck all we can do about it when they try again.

  67. Today I learned... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    TIL that the behaviour of totalitarian states is how you measure socialism. I thought they were different things. Silly of me.

    capcha: anarchy. (Am now vastly amused.)

  68. You aren't trying by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I bought a 4K monitor and the single bad pixel was immediately and obviously apparent. I sent it back.

    If there's one thing that makes my blood boil, it's monitors with visual defects. I can only assume that all you people happy with your defective monitors have eye defects. You could get your spectacles fixed and improve everything you see.

    1. Re:You aren't trying by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can only assume you're a pretentious dick. You could get your attitude fixed and improve everything you see.

    2. Re:You aren't trying by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, thanks for lowering the tone and showing how pretentious dickery works. If I ever need to know what attitude to avoid, I'll re-read your post.

  69. Re:Lather. Rinse. Repeat. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    He's going to believe really really hard that humans are blank slates to be molded to societies whim, like a good libtard.

  70. Why Did Sears Drop Hardware/Tools in Canada? by BigBlockMopar · · Score: 2

    That worked like a charm when they closed the sears hardware by me. Everything was long gone by the time the real discounts appeared.

    [sigh] I remember when Sears Canada sold hardware. Good quality Craftman hand tools and power tools. Then sometime in the late 1990s, all the Sears stores in Canada seemed to drop their great hardware and tools, and from there it was a competitive race to the bottom selling appliances (against Best Buy, Leons, Bad Boy, The Brick, Home Depot, Lowe's) and women's fashions (against the rest of the tenants in the shopping mall).

    Sears, at one point, couldn't be beat. It used to be that if Sears sold it under the Kenmore name, it was good stuff with top-notch after-sale support. It used to be that if Sears sold it under the Craftsman name, it was good stuff... again, with top-notch after-sale support. By staff who gave a shit. And a great house brand is unbeatable in retail: you never have to price match the Kenmore against the Whirlpool which rolled off the same assembly line, and Kenmore had more brand recognition and brand admiration than the company that actually made it.

    Hell, isn't Craftsman-style architecture literally named after Sears mail-order house kits?

    Part of the problem might be the way the Sears Electronics 12" black-and-white TV I had was made in Korea in 1978 by a little company no one had ever heard of. It was great quality, great price, served me well for many years. Being an electronics geek kid I took the lid off and found a now-familiar name on the label on the picture tube and the chassis: Samsung. Likewise, an Eaton Viking (Canadian house-brand, now defunct Eatons Department Stores) TV had Gold Star labels everywhere - You know that manufacturer now as Lucky Gold Star - LG. Apple should take note of its relationship with Foxconn.

    I've also got to give Sears a shoutout for one particular piece of AMAZING customer service. In the 1980s, as a kid on my paper route, I found a classic 1950s Sears Craftsman lawnmower. The deck was cast aluminum, the engine was two-stroke, and I managed to get it running almost immediately, it was built like a tank and almost could have mowed down the annoying fire hydrant on your lawn. I copied down the model number, went to my local Sears store just to ask about it. Two weeks later, a large manila envelope showed up at my place, return address was Chicago. Inside, copied from microfiche, was the entire Owner's Manual and Service Manual for that 1951 Craftsman lawnmower. That lawnmower (with that envelope tucked under the deck) now hangs restored in an automotive museum.

    Sears Canada is finally officially dying. But I've missed them for years. I wish nothing but the best for the rest of Sears, they always provided a great product with great support at at fair price for both parties.

    Thank you, Sears Canada. I loved you.

    --
    Fire and Meat. Yummy.
  71. It's not regulation, but deregulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Massive tax breaks and shipping subsidies reek of deregulation. It's easier to have taxes for all companies, but do make them slightly lower. Then remove taxes that are barriers to entry in a market. (if that ever happens in the U.S., ha!)

    The other issues are, that it's probably become impossible to do business and pay tax honestly in the United States, if filing even a 1040 is difficult for one person, with heavy penalties even for small errors in filing, and when so many large corporations park their money outside the U.S. (it's bad from the U.S. standpoint, but if taxes are onerous, then it's great business anyway).

  72. Oh, the "I told you so's" I'll be saying... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Wow, this was written by the only OTHER person on the planet who seems to know that the massive recession and housing crash is on its way. May 2019. Hear me now and prepare, or believe me later and be caught in it like everyone else.

  73. Seriously? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...has included blaming the media for hyping the troubles of a few well-known chains as proof of a systemic meltdown.

    So, retail store closings are "fake news", too? Just like Papa John's sales slump is do to inmates being allowed to run the asylum?

    One of the side-effects of the Trump administration's putting so many rich people in the public spotlight is that it has demonstrated what supremely arrogant, whiny, spoiled brats they are. They're your businesses, you lazy-ass, entitled fuck-sticks. Take some responsibility. If you can't figure out how to manage them through a changing market, then you deserve to lose them.

  74. Globalisation works both ways by TJHook3r · · Score: 1

    Maybe people are more reluctant to spend their weekends wandering like zombies around shops to buy some Chinese-made junk that they could have bought online in half the time and half the price. Maybe I shop in the wrong places but I rarely have interactions with shop staff that make the mark-ups worth it.

  75. Good points by Bruce66423 · · Score: 1

    There is a need to tax empty property heavily to avoid such behaviour, a change which local communities could easily introduce.

  76. Re:Lather. Rinse. Repeat. by geekmux · · Score: 1

    There must be 3 different starbucks knockoffs in my area... seriously?

    When it comes to the bean-sucking masses who insist they don't have an addiction problem, there's not much to say.

    The strongest drug in the world is denial.